Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:05 broquaint has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:05 Corion Grrr. The build is broken, at least at r2222
00:05 Corion Could not find module `Pugs.Types.Pair':
00:05 Corion ... but then, it's bedtime for me anyways :)
00:06 larsen has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:07 * Corion goes to sleep
00:07 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
00:08 theorbtwo G'night, all.
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00:30 * nothingmuch sighs
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01:12 nothingmuch does anybody know how to debug javascript?
01:12 nothingmuch i'm causing s5's js to freeze
01:12 nothingmuch fudging spork templates
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01:25 stevan nothingmuch: ping
01:26 nothingmuch PONG
01:26 stevan debugging JS
01:27 stevan are you using Safari?
01:29 nothingmuch safari crashed
01:29 nothingmuch switched to moz
01:29 nothingmuch but solvee
01:29 nothingmuch d
01:29 stevan ok
01:29 nothingmuch it was an old version of a the .js by accident
01:29 stevan yeah Safari has horrible JS debugging
01:29 nothingmuch couldn't handle the DOM
01:29 castaway has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:29 stevan you have to activate the Safari debug menu, and then it logs exceptions to console
01:29 stevan but not very good errors
01:30 stevan Firefox's JS console is much better
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01:48 nothingmuch wooo! spork can now make proper s5
01:48 nothingmuch with class="incremental" and all
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02:37 nothingmuch good night
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03:05 autrijus sorry for breaking the tree. it's now repaired.
03:05 autrijus family &
03:08 ingy nothingmuch: ping
03:09 ingy nothingmuch: I got your email, but no  patch
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03:11 autrijus also: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=450638
03:11 autrijus &
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07:07 masak morning
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07:46 Corion A good morning!
07:47 cls_bsd B good afternoon
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08:07 Corion r2224 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
08:07 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (175/4315, r2224), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
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08:22 * masak is stuck in a compulsive svn up/compile loop
08:22 masak does anyone know where to get good info on kwid?
08:32 Corion masak: Punch Ingy
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08:40 masak corion: ok
08:57 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (156/4334, r2227), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
09:02 masak is the following correct behaviour?
09:03 masak bash-3.00$ pugs -e 'my $a = [1, 2, 3]; say $_ for $a' # prints 1
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09:07 gaal Can anyone explain Prim.hs:993 and around, where ther'es special treatment for unary ops?
09:07 gaal looks like a breakout kinda deal, where a unary can in fact be n-ary? Is that for someop @array?
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09:24 Corion Hmmm. Should there be any difference in sub foo(Array @got) { ... }; foo(splice(...)); # and my @res = splice(...); foo(@res); ?
09:24 Corion From what I think I see, @res = splice() # propagates list context to the splice() call, but foo(splice(...)) doesn't.
09:25 Corion Is that a bug? Is that a feature? Where would it be described, and where are the context calls tested?
09:33 autrijus greetings.
09:34 autrijus I've eliminated the context call code... give me a sec to check it in
09:34 autrijus jhc is progressing rapidly. I think we can and should steal its code ;)
09:35 autrijus (jhc = another haskll compiler written in haskell, and in some case generate far more optimized code than ghc)
09:35 autrijus and it's also written by someone as his second haskell project :)
09:36 Corion autrijus: Ah - so I should revert my changes to the test that removed the dependency on the context? Should we write a test that checks the context propagation for foo(bar()) ?
09:36 Corion autrijus: The people actually writing Haskell by choice (and not by force) seem to be competent :)
09:37 Corion ... Haskell doesn't seem to reward idiotic coding behaviour as much as Perl does :-)
09:37 Corion S06 doesn't talk about context and how it is propagated :(
09:37 autrijus but I have pretty good idea of it now :)
09:38 autrijus basically, if an operator has a slurpy signature, it imposes slurpy context on the arguments in those positions
09:38 Corion autrijus++
09:38 autrijus otherwise it imposes item context.
09:39 autrijus that's all. yaya
09:39 Corion autrijus: So, should I think about how to infer context without using want() ? Or should the context testing simply use want() ?
09:39 autrijus I think using want() is probably good enough for now
09:40 Corion autrijus: Are you aware of anything existing that explicitly tests the context behaviour? I didn't find anything below t/subroutines/ to that regard... Or should that go into t/builtins/want.t ?
09:41 * Corion jots down a small test that checks for the identity of @res = foo(); bar(@res) and bar(foo())
09:43 masak i get unexpected results when iterating over an arrayref
09:43 masak pugs -e 'my $a = [1, 2, 3]; say $_ for $a' # prints 1
09:44 autrijus I think that's correct.
09:45 autrijus hrm
09:45 autrijus no
09:45 autrijus it should've printed the strigified [1,2,3]
09:45 autrijus sec.
09:45 masak oki
09:45 * autrijus is fixing list association parsing
09:45 masak it also only prints one element when iterating over nested arrayrefs
09:46 masak pugs -e 'my $a = [[1,2],[3,4]]; say $_ for $a' # prints 1
09:47 masak very strange
09:49 autrijus the comma was broken. apologies
09:51 Corion Hmmm. I think I have some new interesting tests in want(), and maybe a bug in splice, but I'm not sure. I'll commit now ;)
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09:53 integral is now known as integral|ZzZzz
09:54 * autrijus praises parsec
09:55 autrijus landed!
09:56 autrijus r2230
09:57 Corion Ah. I think I found a bug in splice() - in scalar context it should return the last result of the result-list and not of the original array, shouldn't it ?
09:57 autrijus I'd think so.
09:57 Corion ... at least my test results point in the direction that there is a bug :)
09:57 autrijus good :)
09:57 autrijus care to run another round of smoke for r2230?
09:58 autrijus I _think_ it won't break everything.
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09:58 Corion autrijus: Just committing and now starting a smoke session
09:59 autrijus ok. I'm fixing abs.t bug, orthogonal to other things
09:59 Corion Bwahahah :) jhc is, again, using Perl :)
10:00 Corion They should simply embed Perl! :)
10:00 Corion autrijus: r2231 builds and is now smoking
10:00 autrijus haskelldirect does embed perl :)
10:00 autrijus although I think Inline::GHC will make it even easier
10:01 autrijus I think there is a distinct advantage in mixing the most practical and the most elegant languages together :)
10:01 autrijus that neatly kills the waterbed complexity problem.
10:01 autrijus "everything becomes trivial"
10:02 autrijus because each one is, from the other one's side of view, making "hard things easy and easy things possible"
10:02 Corion autrijus: You mean, just put everything into the RunPerl monad! :)
10:02 autrijus yes!
10:02 Corion err - Eval
10:02 Corion :)
10:02 autrijus :)
10:02 larsen has joined #perl6
10:02 autrijus (but we can safely ignore the two 'easy things possible' bits)
10:04 autrijus abs.t fixed
10:09 Corion Ooops - pugs: src/Pugs/Eval.hs:324:12-33: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern [Pugs.AST.Var name, exp]
10:09 Corion in t/operators/binding.t
10:09 castaway is now known as theorbtwo
10:10 autrijus yeah, that's parenthesized binding
10:10 * theorbtwo wonders if he should be worried about the poliferation of symbolic references.
10:10 theorbtwo (Probably not.)
10:10 autrijus symbolic references?
10:10 autrijus the bindings things worries me.
10:10 theorbtwo Var is the name of a variable.
10:11 autrijus theorbtwo: you'd like to somehow use unique id generators?
10:11 autrijus that is little win at the AST level I think.
10:11 autrijus $x := $x; # this is no-op or infinite loop?
10:11 theorbtwo So long as they don't end up leaking across scopes.
10:11 autrijus $x := $x + 2; # what about this?
10:12 autrijus theorbtwo: you can't put a Var into a Val
10:12 autrijus theorbtwo: neither can you deref it as part of AST
10:12 theorbtwo OK then.
10:12 autrijus so we are safe. I can see the case of MkVar just to make things clear.
10:12 autrijus (just like MkType)
10:12 autrijus newType Var = MkVar String deriving (Show, Eq, Ord)
10:12 autrijus err, newtype Var = MkVar String deriving (Show, Eq, Ord)
10:12 autrijus then fix all type errors
10:12 autrijus you up for it? :)
10:13 autrijus (that will eliminate accidentally mixing the Var type with Strings)
10:13 theorbtwo $x := $x is a nop -- "$x now refers to the variable formerly known as $x."
10:13 autrijus what about functional application then.
10:13 autrijus $x := fun($x)
10:13 theorbtwo Possibly later; right now I'm hacking at Jess's CSS.
10:13 autrijus sure.
10:14 theorbtwo Not sure what happens when you have an expr on the RHS of the := operator.
10:14 autrijus yet we allow
10:14 autrijus $x := @a[0][2][3]
10:14 theorbtwo Possibly make it a nonlazy thunk?
10:14 theorbtwo /always/ compute the /current/ value of @a[0][2][3]?
10:14 autrijus or does that it autovivify @a[0][2][3] immediately?
10:14 autrijus aha.
10:14 theorbtwo rvalue never autovivs.
10:14 autrijus well, but does it autovivify or not?
10:15 autrijus then it is conceptually a thunk.
10:15 autrijus $x := @a[0]   is no diff from
10:15 autrijus $x := deref(@a, 0)
10:15 autrijus and is very diff from
10:15 autrijus $x := $a
10:15 autrijus this inconsistency is bad.
10:15 theorbtwo Not very different; either way you always get the current value of the thing on the right hand side.
10:15 autrijus no, not really.
10:15 theorbtwo (Using the pad in effect at the time the RHS was written.)
10:16 autrijus $x := $a; $a := $z;
10:16 autrijus $x = 3;
10:16 BigBear has joined #perl6
10:16 autrijus should $z change?
10:16 theorbtw1 has joined #perl6
10:16 autrijus 18:16 < autrijus> $x := $a; $a := $z;
10:16 autrijus 18:16 < autrijus> $x = 3;
10:16 autrijus should $z change?
10:16 theorbtwo No, $x became the variable fomerly known as a.
10:16 autrijus but!
10:17 autrijus $x := $a[0]; $a := $z;
10:17 autrijus $x = 3;
10:17 autrijus $z[0] changes.
10:17 autrijus or does it?
10:17 theorbtwo Ooof.
10:17 autrijus it has to change, or $a[0] needs to vivify.
10:17 autrijus I don't see a third option
10:18 theorbtwo The reference in the thunk needs to be a hard reference.
10:18 autrijus if it changes, that := is very different from the former :=
10:18 autrijus but you can't hard reference to something that wasn't there.
10:18 autrijus $x := $a[0]; $x = 3; # error!?
10:18 theorbtwo Mm.
10:18 theorbtwo OK, I'm offically confused.
10:18 autrijus good. I am too.
10:18 autrijus I will take the "always thunking" interpretation
10:18 autrijus and outlaw ($x, $y) := ($y, $x)
10:18 autrijus and write p6l.
10:19 theorbtw1 is now known as castaway
10:20 castaway $x := $a[0] looks like an error to me
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10:20 autrijus I wush.
10:20 autrijus wish.
10:20 autrijus S06:
10:20 autrijus my $pivot := shift @data;
10:21 autrijus (who => $name, why => $reason) := (why => $because, who => "me");
10:21 castaway where @data didnt exist previously?
10:21 autrijus better, s09
10:21 autrijus @b := @a[0...:by(2)]
10:21 autrijus explain that? :)
10:21 machack666 I was wondering about the adverbs and range ops myself
10:22 autrijus my $endpos := $string.chars;        # $endpos == 3
10:22 machack666 I assume that the range op is a function to which the adverb is passed as an additional parameter at the end
10:22 autrijus (a12)
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10:22 castaway is the word "binding" described anywhere ?
10:23 machack666 isn't it just a variable alias
10:23 autrijus castaway: yes, s02.
10:23 autrijus but it does not explain
10:23 autrijus    my $endpos := $string.chars;
10:23 autrijus which is very troubling.
10:23 theorbtwo Are there any examples where it gets called more then once?
10:24 castaway http://tnx.nl/S02 (lazy typist)
10:24 autrijus castaway: cool
10:24 theorbtwo my $pivot := shift @data would seem like an odd thing to do under the always thunk interp.
10:24 autrijus theorbtwo: $endpos?
10:24 autrijus in a12 $endpos is called multiple times.
10:24 castaway except its not dwiming..
10:24 machack666 is it bound to the chars array in scalar context, i.e., when the size of the array changes, the variable is automatically updated?
10:25 machack666 I don't know if it is bound to the array, or bound to the method call...
10:25 theorbtwo I was taking the interpretation that there wasn't a variable there to update, only the thunk.
10:25 Corion r2231 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
10:26 masak my @a = (1..Inf); @a := @a[0...:by(2)] # ouch :)
10:26 Corion (next smoke starting)
10:26 theorbtwo "... if you bind to a position rather than assign, it tracks the string in question"
10:27 theorbtwo That sounds like always thunk.
10:27 theorbtwo Sadly, in the example he uses, I can't think of a way that it wouldn't always be 3.
10:27 machack666 is there a link for what thunks are?
10:27 machack666 or a quick description?
10:28 autrijus    my ($x, @a);
10:28 autrijus    $x := @a[-1];
10:29 autrijus machack666: thunks are closure functions that takes no arguments.
10:29 castaway that endpos example seems fairly clear to me
10:29 autrijus castaway: clear in the sense that it is thunking?
10:29 autrijus then
10:30 autrijus $x := $x; # should then be infinite loop
10:30 castaway It shows that $endpos gets set to 3, but changes to the string var will cause $endpos to change
10:30 * castaway has no idea what thunking is
10:30 autrijus castaway: thunking means that the variable is linked to an expression
10:30 autrijus not a storage location
10:30 autrijus that is like saying
10:30 machack666 so the question is whether the closure is recalled each time we access the bound variable, or if it is initialized to the value of the variable or expression assigned to
10:31 autrijus $endpos = mkProxy(sub { $string.chars });
10:31 autrijus and all read and write to $endpos will be read and write to the thing yielded by evaluating that sub.
10:31 castaway (fun, it looks like an elisp marker, btw)
10:31 castaway isnt it vice versa?
10:32 theorbtwo Here's another fun one -- if it's an always-thunk, then unoptimizables can be passed around willy-nilly all the time.
10:32 machack666 so is there an implicit lvalue returned from the mkProxy?
10:32 autrijus machack666: if you use it as lvalue then it calls that closure using lvalue context
10:32 autrijus theorbtwo: what is unoptimizables?
10:33 autrijus castaway: uh, I was explaining the thunking, not the storage location
10:33 theorbtwo Things you can't do common subexpr optimizations on, because they might change value while you aren't looking.
10:34 castaway I'm going to say its not thunking.. just for the hell of it. how would it calc its current status, at all?
10:34 castaway (also, for bonus points, hows it get set to anywhere in the middle of the string, and not just the end/beg pos?)
10:34 autrijus theorbtwo: ah.
10:35 Corion castaway: I would assume that middle position needs an "absolute" thing, while only "-1" can be relative.
10:35 theorbtwo $x = instr('x', $foo);
10:35 Corion Even "0" has no way of discerning if it's meant to be relative or absolute
10:36 theorbtwo $foo='10 x 3'; #$x now 4.
10:36 Corion (all negative indices will be "absolute" from the end of the string)
10:36 castaway it would be had you used :=
10:36 theorbtwo $foo='4x4'; # $x now 2.
10:36 theorbtwo Er, make that $x := instr...
10:38 castaway ok, making it be instr makes sense, because you can run that expr everytime, and get the right answer
10:39 castaway but Larrys example in A12 does something different
10:39 castaway $endpos doesnt always point to the end of $string, so it cant just run .chars everytime
10:39 castaway it points to where that particular part of the string ends.. (thus the second half of the example sets it to 2, not 5)
10:39 castaway so, as I just asked, what expr would it be linked to there?
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10:41 machack666 if the chars array is the same for the variable and is just grown/shrunk for additions/reassignments, binding to the array itself would have the impact of returning the current length, would it not?
10:41 machack666 that doesn't help with the relative indicies, but it explains the endpos.
10:42 machack666 positive indices would be bound in a fixed location
10:43 theorbtwo When you call .chars, .instr, etc, you don't get an integer, just something that nummifies when forced.
10:43 theorbtwo (IE with the == operator.)
10:44 castaway machack666: that made no sense to me
10:44 autrijus I have worked it out!
10:44 theorbtwo Woo!  Tell us all about it?
10:44 machack666 not surprised; I've only had 10 hours of sleep in the last 4 days
10:45 Corion r2232 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
10:45 * castaway copies a chunk of the elisp manual on positions into A12 .)
10:46 Corion castaway: Yep - that stuff surely sounds like it's from (or for) a text editor. But it's a useful concept to have :)
10:46 * theorbtwo wonders if Larry was simply crazy trying to use := (which tends to change things behind your back) with position objects (which tend to change behind your back).
10:46 Corion So now, Perl can also claim to have stolen from Emacs and vi, in addition to programming languages :)
10:47 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (81/4418, r2227), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
10:47 theorbtwo Emacs isn't a programming language?
10:47 broquaint How? It sounds crazy, in a good way.
10:47 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp: 587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (81/4418, r2232), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216) | pugs.kwiki.org
10:47 castaway elisp most certainly is one
10:47 castaway (and vi's plugin lang sounds like one)
10:48 machack666 castaway: what I mean is if there is a fixed memory location for the underlying character string, and binding is just like keeping another pointer around, then changing the data structure referred to at that pointer will be reflected in the bound value.
10:48 broquaint I hope none of vi's syntax has been borrowed, or Emacs macros for that matter ...
10:48 * theorbtwo still wants to know what it is that Autrijus figured out.
10:48 Corion broquaint: rx:Perl5// :)
10:49 castaway umm.. (ick, pointers ;)
10:49 theorbtwo .oO(Inline::TECO?)
10:49 broquaint No comprende amigo ;)
10:49 machack666 I don't know about the haskell world for the implementation ... I'm coming from a C background
10:49 broquaint pointers++ # the power! the pooowweeeerr!
10:50 Corion broquaint: The regular expression syntax is close to vi syntax ;)
10:50 * machack666 has learned from the error of his ways
10:50 autrijus haskell has plusPtr too :)
10:50 machack666 :)
10:50 autrijus it even has castPtr :)
10:50 autrijus Ptr a -> Ptr b
10:50 autrijus the horrors
10:50 * Corion moves outside. maybe later.
10:50 Corion &
10:50 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
10:50 machack666 nothing beats (void*)0 = 1
10:50 machack666 :D
10:50 castaway machack666: me no haskell either..
10:50 machack666 i'm learning
10:50 autrijus so, I've worked things out
10:50 autrijus need to run now
10:50 theorbtwo machack666: What's really scary is when that doesn't segfault, but actually does something.
10:50 autrijus see the latest p6l post
10:51 castaway hey unfair
10:51 theorbtwo Eeep!  The suspense!
10:51 machack666 yaht was good, as was the 2 dozen short lessons
10:51 * machack666 has a garage sale to go prepare.  Oh, and a place to collapse somewhere
10:51 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-linux.html # r2231 linux
10:51 machack666 ok bye
10:51 machack666 has left
10:51 autrijus http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20536
10:52 castaway ah, thanks
10:52 * castaway found yaht icky ;)
10:52 autrijus bbl &
10:56 nothingmuch morning!
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11:04 castaway allo nm
11:04 nothingmuch_ hola!
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11:06 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
11:06 Juerd rehi
11:09 nothingmuch mugwump: ping
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12:03 castaway is now known as theorbtw1
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12:04 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
12:04 * castaway keyboard dances
12:04 Juerd It was scary to see you morph into eachother
12:04 Juerd Do you do that often?
12:04 theorbtwo Aaaah, much better keyboard.
12:04 castaway *g*
12:04 castaway not too often
12:05 * theorbtwo doesn't like her keyboard, browser, or window manager.
12:05 theorbtwo So no.
12:05 castaway but I poked him into looking at my CSS this morning..
12:05 * castaway sticks her tongue out at theorbtwo
12:05 * Juerd got new glasses today. Well, we just picked frames, and in a week they're getting me a new prescription.
12:05 castaway nifty
12:06 theorbtwo Cool.
12:06 Juerd It's a neat thing that has sunglasses that attach to the normal frame with magnets.
12:06 theorbtwo Thick frames, or really good magnets?
12:06 Juerd There are magnets in both the normal frame and the sun front.
12:07 Juerd And no, not thick frames
12:07 Juerd Whehehehehe
12:07 Juerd "readme.rtfd"
12:09 castaway d= ?
12:12 jiing__ has left
12:12 Juerd I don't know
12:12 Juerd But I read it as read the fucking documentation
12:13 Juerd The first few seconds, rich text format D-something didn't even occur to me :)
12:13 Odin-LAP ;)
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12:24 castaway bah, silly when the HTML editor has better/different CSS support to the actual browsers
12:30 theorbtwo IE.
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12:30 theorbtwo And worse.
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12:56 theorbtwo Would some Hebrew-speaker please tell Jess how to pronounce "sigil"?
12:57 castaway siggle!
12:57 theorbtwo Oh, it's from Latin, so I'm possibly asking on the wrong channel.
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13:07 castaway Corion!
13:07 Corion re
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13:07 theorbtwo Hm, this is not as easy as Autrijus made it out to be, and apparently a Var can be an Exp.
13:09 Corion castaway: "sidjil"
13:09 castaway siggle!
13:09 theorbtwo cxtOfExp :: Exp -> Eval Cxt has as a case cxtOfExp (Var (c:_))
13:16 cognominal sigil seems a common word in role playing
13:17 theorbtwo Unsurprising: A sigil is a magic sign.
13:17 cognominal I wonder if Larry got it from there or from reading other litterature
13:18 cognominal I did not know the word before Perl
13:18 castaway hmm, basic had them, but I dont remember if the docs called them that
13:18 theorbtwo I'm not sure if I did or not; I'm well-versed in perl and mildly versed in various schools of the occult.
13:19 theorbtwo (IE enough that I know the magical connotations of the word sigil, but can't draw any from memory.)
13:20 * castaway can draw musical siggles
13:20 cognominal sigils is proof enough that Perl is about black magic.
13:20 cognominal and with Perl6, we got double plus black magic with secondary sigils
13:20 theorbtwo Indeed.
13:21 Corion It's just like D&D 2nd rev. - we now got good/neutral/evil and chaotic/???/lawful
13:21 Corion err - 2nd Ed., not 2dn rev.
13:21 theorbtwo ??? also eq neutral.
13:21 * theorbtwo is good neutral.
13:22 Corion ... so Perl6 steals from Wizards of the Coast too, and not only from Wizards of the Ivory Towers
13:22 * Corion is chaotic neutral.
13:22 theorbtwo Er, neutral good?
13:22 theorbtwo You're chaotic?  I hadn't noticed.
13:22 Corion Now, is @ = lawful, $ = neutral, % = chaotic ? # at least for order of keys :)
13:23 Corion theorbtwo: Nah, I guess I'm more lawful
13:24 theorbtwo For hackers, the easiest way to tell is generally one's attitude toward copyright infringement.
13:25 Corion theorbtwo: Hmmm. Well - do you mean "do you download DivX, or do you prefer complete DVDRips" ?
13:26 Corion Ah. I think I've found out why all my tests can't seem to reproduce the erratic behaviour of splice() - lazy evaluation actually cares only about what the result is used for, and none of this "intermediate" stuff... So if I ever stringify stuff, I should do that front-up...
13:27 theorbtwo A lawful won't steal software, or will do so but feel bad about it.
13:27 theorbtwo A chaotic will steal all sorts of stuff, even though they have no purticular use for it, just to steal.
13:27 Corion theorbtwo: No. A lawful person has exact rules that are to be followed, and feels bad if these rules are violated
13:27 Corion theorbtwo: A chaotic person needs/knows no rules
13:28 Corion theorbtwo: Lawful/chaotic are more approaches - good/neutral/evil are the ends.
13:28 Corion For example, a chaotic good might download a DivX from the internet, if it helps to educate children about teen pregnancy.
13:29 theorbtwo I thought the lawful-evil axis was generally about following the rules of society at large, and not one's own personal rules.
13:29 Corion ... and a lawful evil person prefers complete DVDRips, because then all is in orderly fashion.
13:30 Corion theorbtwo: Lawful/evil is not an axis
13:30 theorbtwo Er, lawful-chaotic.
13:30 Corion theorbtwo: good/neutral/evil vs. lawful/neutral/chaotic
13:30 Corion theorbtwo: IMO, it's the means you choose to reach your goals
13:30 Corion (like, either, do whatever fits the situation, or have a predetermined way of doing things)
13:31 Corion ... but I never really played DnD :)
13:31 theorbtwo Neither have I.
13:31 Corion ... and arguing about DnD rules pretty much puts me in the lawful evil camp
13:31 theorbtwo Why evil?
13:32 Corion theorbtwo: Because arguing about rules is evil! :)
13:32 theorbtwo Ah.
13:32 * castaway grins
13:33 Corion &
14:12 stevan nothingmuch: ping
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14:13 nothingmuch pong
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14:54 autrijus greetings!
14:55 autrijus bindings is fully implemented and committed.
14:55 autrijus any smokers around?
14:55 autrijus well, I'll just smoke a round and go to shower.
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14:57 Corion A smoke is just running
14:58 Corion r2234 though.
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15:01 autrijus r2235 is the fix :)
15:02 Corion cancel+restart :)
15:02 sbkhh is now known as Odin-
15:02 Corion (because time is somewhat limited atm)
15:02 autrijus that's fine, I'm about to finish my run
15:02 autrijus so not really needed... although a comparison on win32 could not hurt
15:05 autrijus hm, that fix killed multidimensionality.
15:05 autrijus but I also see a UNEXPECTED SUCCESS
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15:16 Odin_ is now known as Odin-LAP
15:18 stevan autrijus: I will start a smoke run
15:19 Corion r2335 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
15:19 Corion &
15:19 autrijus stevan: there's no real need to now :)
15:19 autrijus Corion++ # thanks!
15:19 stevan autrijus: ok
15:20 autrijus stevan: you can, however, help on changelog (again)
15:20 autrijus it looks like tonight may be it.
15:20 stevan autrijus: ok how long do i have?
15:20 autrijus I don't know... a couple hrs? 3 hrs?
15:20 stevan just placed the order for Algorithms :)
15:25 Aankhen`` Hi.
15:26 autrijus (is rw) implemented.
15:26 autrijus hey Aankhen``
15:26 stevan everywhere?
15:26 Aankhen`` Hola.
15:26 Aankhen`` Are there any tests which are expected to fail on Win XP?
15:27 autrijus Aankhen``: 127 are expected to fail
15:27 autrijus but the value varies greatly now.
15:28 Aankhen`` Ah.
15:28 Aankhen`` OK.
15:28 Aankhen`` Just checking, since I seem to have failed a couple from builtins/arrays/splice
15:28 * Aankhen`` goes to eat dinner while the rest of the tests run.
15:28 Aankhen`` See y'all in a bit.
15:28 autrijus sure
15:29 wolverian I am having too much fun with my new electric drumset. :(
15:29 autrijus wolverian: that's cool
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15:32 autrijus hey jhorwitz, Huskie.
15:32 jhorwitz morning..
15:33 wolverian autrijus: yes. I can now practice at home.
15:34 wolverian it is however taking away time from coding.
15:34 * Juerd hopes the ..foo thing can bring Larry back to sanity (sanity being defaulting to $_ and $_ only.)
15:34 autrijus I ignored that insane thread.
15:35 Juerd It's a very sane thread :)
15:35 autrijus it... is?
15:35 Juerd The current latest suggestion is to use ..foo to mean OUTER::OUTER::$_.foo
15:35 Juerd Keeping $_ as an alias for $self
15:36 Juerd (Note that Larry still writes $OUTER::OUTER::_, which does not at all play well with the statement that the sigil is now part of the name)
15:36 autrijus I want $OUTER::OUTER::_.
15:36 autrijus I don't think OUTER::OUTER::$_ makes any sense.
15:36 autrijus (just fwiw.)
15:36 Juerd I think it makes a lot of sense
15:36 autrijus I think it breaks the purpose of sigils.
15:36 Juerd Because OUTER::OUTER:: is the namespace, and $_ is the variable in that namespace
15:36 autrijus you might as well as drop the sigils if you write that.
15:37 Juerd The entire purpose of sigils is already broken in Perl 6, as far as I'm concerned.
15:37 autrijus I think we are actually in vehement agreement.
15:37 Juerd Again?
15:37 autrijus yeah.
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15:41 stevan autrijus: r2239 ChangeLog commited
15:41 stevan its a big one this time :)
15:42 stevan you might want to look over it once, some stuff I was unsure of whether to put in Bugs or Pugs Internals
15:42 autrijus sure is :) lots of things happened
15:42 autrijus sure
15:42 autrijus I'm particularly happy that the Types.Object introduction worked
15:43 autrijus that means the shift to OO core is at hand
15:43 autrijus currently it only handles .ref method
15:43 autrijus but more to come.
15:43 stevan autrijus++ :)
15:43 autrijus #perl6++ :)
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16:17 cognominal OUTER::OUTER::$_ does not make sense to me
16:17 cognominal sigil starts variables
16:18 autrijus yeah. otherwise we kill interpolation
16:18 autrijus and other syntactic constructs.
16:20 autrijus Juerd: maybe you can answer this :)
16:20 Limbic_Region autrijus - did you get a definitive answer on thunking ?
16:20 cognominal he probably sees $_ as insecable
16:20 autrijus sub foo (@x) { say "@x[]" }; foo(reverse(123));
16:20 autrijus I argue it should say "123".
16:20 autrijus and not "321".
16:22 autrijus so I coded it that way.
16:22 autrijus Limbic_Region: no, but I will assume thunking.
16:22 cognominal excpet if you split '', 123
16:22 autrijus fwiw, X ::= Y is just
16:22 autrijus BEGIN {X := Y}
16:22 cognominal s/excpet/expcept/
16:22 autrijus or rather,
16:22 cognominal arf :(
16:22 autrijus X := BEGIN {Y}
16:23 autrijus split('', 123) should surely give @x as (1,2,3)
16:23 autrijus I can see the rules very clearly now :)
16:24 autrijus *@x -- slurpily consume expressions, *and* evaluate them slurpily
16:24 autrijus @x -- only accept one expression item, but evaluate slurpily
16:24 autrijus *$x -- slurpily consume one expression, evaluate it as an item
16:24 autrijus $x -- accept one expression item, evaluate it as an item
16:24 autrijus "slurpily" == "list context" and "as an item" == "scalar context"
16:25 Juerd 18:20 < autrijus> yeah. otherwise we kill interpolation
16:25 Juerd 18:20 < autrijus> and other syntactic constructs.
16:25 Juerd 18:22 < autrijus> Juerd: maybe you can answer this :)
16:26 Juerd It's a simple matter of including :: in interpolation:
16:26 Juerd "My name is ::OUTER::OUTER::$_"
16:26 Juerd Or using a closure:
16:26 Juerd "My name is { OUTER::OUTER::$_ }"
16:26 Juerd Don't forget that the sigil for classes is ::, optionally.
16:26 autrijus say "Your options are: ::CGI::$OPTIONS"
16:27 autrijus somehow not seeing it as nice.
16:27 autrijus mkdir "::FindBin::$Bin/tmp";
16:27 Juerd One shouldn't be interpolating variables from other packages *anyway*.
16:27 autrijus disagreed.
16:27 autrijus I interpolate $FindBin::Bin all the time
16:27 autrijus not seeing the harm of it.
16:28 Juerd Because that's the ugly way one currently does that thing
16:28 Juerd I see it as a hack, though.
16:28 autrijus I rest my case :)
16:28 Juerd Purely to be interpolateable, it's a variable :)
16:28 Juerd But with closures, that's no longer needed...
16:29 autrijus Juerd: so, you happy with the *@a @a *$a $a rule above?
16:29 cognominal how I understand juerd points now, the sigil is part of the unqualified name
16:30 cognominal so when you qualify it you got ::CGI::$OPTIONS
16:30 Juerd autrijus: I'll have to read it first... :)
16:31 Juerd 18:26 < autrijus> *$x -- slurpily consume one expression, evaluate it as an item
16:31 Juerd No
16:31 Juerd It has to evaluate the expression in slurpy context and then use one of its elements.
16:31 autrijus right.
16:31 autrijus but it evaluates /that element/ in item context.
16:31 Juerd autrijus: It's not expression separator separated, when it comes to slurpiness
16:31 Juerd That element is not evaluated.
16:31 autrijus yeah. I should've been more clear.
16:32 Juerd It just is.
16:32 autrijus huh?
16:32 autrijus sub foo (*$x) { ... }; foo((), (), (), want())
16:32 autrijus surely the 'want' here is bound to $x under item context?
16:33 autrijus actually no.
16:33 autrijus I'm smoking some bad crack. you are entirely correct.
16:33 autrijus *$x is just is.
16:33 autrijus incidentally that's also what pugs does.
16:34 autrijus pugs> sub foo (*$x) { say $x }; foo((), (), (), want())
16:34 autrijus List (Any)
16:34 autrijus I assume that's right
16:34 Juerd So do I.
16:34 autrijus cool :)
16:34 Juerd And if you used a function that returned multiple elements, the call would be a runtime error.
16:35 autrijus oh?
16:35 cognominal so, back to the sigil, who is right?
16:35 Juerd Too many arguments...
16:35 autrijus I thought all uncaught slurps are into *@_.
16:35 autrijus actually I'm pretty sure of that.
16:35 Juerd Only one argument can be bound. There's no implicit *@_ when there's any explicit signature, AFAIK
16:35 Juerd *@_ is default, but not implicitly appended.
16:36 Juerd Just like how "say" assumes $_ if there are no arguments, but it doesn't add $_ to its list when you "say $foo".
16:36 Juerd There's a *%_ in method constructors, or something like that, but that's unrelated.
16:36 Juerd s*method*object*
16:37 autrijus ah.
16:37 autrijus you are entirely correct. and I was entirely confused
16:37 Juerd It's like the default imaginary (@) prototype on Perl 5 subs
16:37 autrijus anyone up to write a test?
16:37 * autrijus fixes it
16:37 Juerd It doesn't make ($) automatically ($@)
16:37 autrijus right. *@_ is there iff it's signatureless.
16:38 Juerd I'm not in coding health. I'm fighting myself to even be involved in discussions
16:38 autrijus yeah, that's why I asked "anyone" :)
16:38 Juerd (I hate myself for doing this, but either you care about something and it becomes an addiction, or you'd have to somehow stop caring...)
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16:48 gaal (running smoke of 2245/linux)
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17:00 autrijus ok, added "Too many arguments" checking
17:00 * autrijus tries to test
17:04 elmex perl6 does tail recursion? does it optimize it?
17:17 autrijus I have no idea if perl6 does tail recursion or not.
17:19 wolverian &func.goto(@args)
17:19 wolverian although there is probably a trait for subs to do that automatically
17:19 wolverian (still looking.)
17:21 gaal hi all, i added haskell support to exuberant ctags. anyone interested? (i'm sending a patch to the authors of course, but i figure people might want it before the next ctags release :)(
17:21 chady has joined #perl6
17:21 gaal also, i think i understand why the current 'make ctags' is broken
17:22 gaal er, make tags, that is. --
17:22 gaal vim at least wants it sorted, with all uppercase letters coming before the lowercase ones.
17:22 autrijus we probably all use hasktags.
17:22 autrijus :)
17:23 autrijus but exctags support would be cool.
17:23 autrijus (note "make tags" in pugs)
17:23 gaal autrijus, did that work for you with vim? didn't for me.
17:23 autrijus hm? it used to work at least
17:23 gaal yes, which didn't work for me.
17:25 autrijus then I want your exctags patch :)
17:28 gaal perlbot nopaste
17:28 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
17:29 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "haskell tags. patch against exuberant-ctags-5.5.4" (84 lines, 2.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/9604
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17:34 gaal it's pretty simple, doesn't e.g. support whatchamacallits, subtypes, err, type constructors, but is a start.
17:36 autrijus *** Error: Too many slurpy arguments for &foo: 2 actual, 1 expected
17:36 autrijus good.
17:37 autrijus anyone care to add this as a dies_ok test? :)
17:37 autrijus sub foo (*$x) { say $x } foo(reverse(1,2))
17:37 autrijus should die as a catchable runtime error
17:38 gaal smoke for 2245 available at http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-linux.html
17:39 gaal autrijus, remember the Prelude idea? got time to start me up on that?
17:39 autrijus Prelude in perl6?
17:40 gaal yes, the builtins that are written in perl6 and compiled at pugs build time, and are loaded in memory right when a pugs instance starts.
17:41 autrijus right... I think just keep it in Prelude.pm and add an automagic -MPrelude for now.
17:41 gaal this is halfway between a pure perl Perl standard library and a pure hasekll standard perl library :)
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17:41 gaal we have a Prelude.pm?
17:42 gaal you mentioned you had an idea for keeping around a parsed AST
17:43 gaal i think.
17:43 gaal 4500 test cases. wow.
17:44 autrijus yeah, I had that, but we can do that when we actually ahve a Prelude.pm
17:45 gaal okay: i have a few things to put there. one is alarm(), which will probably get another name
17:45 gaal the other is open()
17:45 gaal which needs some parsing for the magical form
17:45 gaal and is easier to write in perl
17:45 gaal e.g. there's already support for parsing open ">>logfile"
17:46 gaal but not for open "ls |"
17:46 Juerd There is support for a single argument open that can append? That is bad.
17:46 stevan autrijus: where should I put dies_ok test? for the sub
17:46 autrijus stevan: no idea... improvise :)
17:46 gaal also, i needed some help hiding the tuple (stdin, stdout, stderr, pid) for the pipe open.
17:46 stevan autrijus: what is it testing? sub args?
17:47 autrijus gaal: ok. just make a src/Prelude.pm and starts there
17:47 autrijus stevan: slurpy args are now bounded
17:47 autrijus yeah
17:47 Juerd bound
17:47 Juerd Or really bounded?
17:47 Juerd In that case, what does it mean in this context?
17:47 autrijus bounded.
17:47 autrijus it means that we now properly throws "too many arguments"
17:47 Juerd Oh, the parameters as a collection are bounded
17:47 autrijus yes.
17:48 Juerd I was trying to think of a way how they could be individually
17:48 autrijus no implicit *@_
17:48 gaal okay. i need a cheat way to call internal haskell prims; there's no convention for naming those, is there?
17:48 Juerd That's great, autrijus
17:48 autrijus gaal: nope. improvise
17:49 gaal OK.
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17:51 stevan autrijus: r2249  t/subroutines/sub_arg_errors.t
17:51 autrijus stevan++
17:51 autrijus stevan++
17:51 stevan it can be a catch-all for misc errors
17:51 stevan I was going to start removing all the todo_* tests and replacing them with the todo named param
17:51 stevan anyone want to help?
17:52 Juerd stevan: Isn't that a question of s/todo_// && s/;/ :todo;/ ?
17:52 Juerd (per line)
17:52 Juerd To at least get the most done automatically...
17:53 stevan Juerd: thats a thought
17:53 stevan I was basically going to do that with my IDE :)
17:53 Juerd Are you sure you're a nerd? :)
17:55 stevan Juerd: uh,.. I,.. uh,.. mean, .. yeah ,.. gonna do it all in sed,...
17:56 Juerd sed?!
17:58 stevan sorry I mean assembler :P
17:59 stevan Juerd: in all seriousness, since many people have coded these tests
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17:59 stevan we have so many varying styles, that its very difficult to do s/// for things like this
18:04 pjcj If only we had a language with rules to determine its structure which we could use to parse and modify programs.
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18:10 autrijus whew.
18:10 autrijus * "is rw" and "is copy" implemented in full.
18:10 autrijus do we have tests for them?
18:10 autrijus stevan: also please update changelog :)
18:11 theorbtwo autrijus, two problems, though one of them may be outdated.
18:11 theorbtwo One is that Var is apparently sometimes used as an Exp.
18:11 autrijus huh.
18:11 autrijus Var :: Var -> Exp
18:11 autrijus it's just like
18:11 autrijus Val :: Val -> Exp
18:12 autrijus pugs uses the scheme of same-named constuctor as promotion
18:15 theorbtwo But earlier you said that a Var can't be used as an Exp.
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18:18 autrijus hm?
18:18 autrijus I thought I said Var can't be used as a Val.
18:18 autrijus and you can't deref a Var using other Exp constructs
18:18 autrijus other than Var Var itself.
18:20 theorbtwo Ah.
18:20 theorbtwo I still feel like I'm not getting something, but I'm not clear on what.
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18:23 stevan autrijus: updating changelog now
18:29 theorbtwo Oh, the other is that I can't figure out how to make a manual instance of Typeable that works like the derived one (AltData.Typeable is sadly not derivable).
18:31 autrijus theorbtwo: oh. ho hum.
18:31 autrijus I have no idea. ask dons?
18:33 autrijus aha. I found a way to cheaply put Rule in Eval.
18:33 theorbtwo Hm.
18:33 theorbtwo Oh, for implementing p6 rules with?
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18:43 stevan YAPC::NA & Hackathon travel is all confirmed now
18:43 autrijus no, BEGIN
18:43 stevan and my $work is paying for it
18:43 Juerd ARGH
18:43 stevan (cool bosses)++
18:43 obra huh. I should plan YAPC::NA + travel
18:43 Juerd Someone on a (closed) forum is trying to convince the geeks on that forum that they should use their real name instead of the nicknames they use everywhere.
18:43 obra The biggest question: Do I drive?
18:43 Juerd I so hate it when an outsider tries to change culture.
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18:43 stevan orba: where are you located?
18:44 obra stevan: Boston
18:44 obra 8 hour drive or so
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18:44 stevan orba: you should have said something, we could have carpooled, I am in CT
18:44 Juerd stevan: I think it should be rather doable to s/// most of them, leaving only the multi line ones that need manual labour.
18:44 obra heh
18:44 obra my dates are going to be weird.
18:44 * obra is likely only appearing for a dayish of the hackathon to make trouble
18:44 stevan Juerd: its all done now :) just running a make test to weed out the straglers
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18:54 stevan anyone know what the pass/fail ratio on the current rev is?
18:54 stevan or have the most recent smoke?
18:54 gaal stevan, i just started a smoke on 2255 but it'll take a while.
18:55 gaal there's one of 2245 if you backlog a bit.
18:55 stevan gaal: ok, we can compare notes when your done
18:55 stevan I want to make sure I didnt break anything I shouldnt have
18:58 gaal i just noticed that after 'make clean', make skips UTF8, Unicode, and RRegex. weird, no?
18:58 gaal ....or are those not regular source files?
19:03 gaal Is MMD with constraints, e.g. http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20519 , officially in? (even if the particular mms mentioned there aren't)?
19:06 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:09 wilx has joined #perl6
19:18 mj has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:25 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-linux.html - r2255/linux
19:25 gaal man, a smoke cycle takes 30 minutes :(
19:26 gaal i wonder, does ghc do cross-compilation?
19:28 stevan gaal: perfect,.. my numbers match your numbers :)
19:28 gaal :)
19:29 stevan pugs -e 'require Test; todo_ok(1);'
19:29 stevan 1..0
19:29 stevan No compatible subroutine found: &todo_ok
19:29 stevan App "&todo_ok" [] [Val (VInt 1)]
19:29 stevan its a beautiful thing :)
19:29 stevan commiting now
19:34 wolverian gaal: it is in. the 'could' in the phrase there refers to this particular usage scenario.
19:35 gaal wolverian, thanks. (took me a moment to realize you were answering my q about mmd :)
19:37 wolverian sorry. :)
19:38 gaal hey, anything quicker than a smoke run is fair game. :p
19:41 stevan r2257 - No more todo_*
19:41 * autrijus cries
19:41 autrijus why does larry have to do this?
19:41 obra hm?
19:42 autrijus here I am, thinking I can release 6.2.1 tonight and be done with it
19:42 autrijus having just committed a 600ish lines change that implements the thunking semantics of bindings correctly
19:42 autrijus including snapshotting of RHS pad
19:43 autrijus which is functionally a superset of the call-by-value approach
19:43 autrijus but this: http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20543
19:43 autrijus destroyed all hope of it
19:43 autrijus so I'm now back at square one.
19:45 Juerd I think the big problem with Perl is -again- lack of specification.
19:45 Juerd The synopses aren't clear enough to build an interpreter around.
19:45 obra     :/
19:45 obra Juerd: that's improving
19:45 * autrijus is in a sad, sad mood and should probably sleep now.
19:45 obra and nobody is deluded enough to think they're complete yet
19:46 obra autrijus: or hack on fun other things!
19:46 autrijus obra: right, like paying $work.
19:46 * autrijus cries some more
19:46 * castaway comforts autrijus
19:46 theorbtwo Uff.
19:47 * obra pets autrijus
19:47 Juerd autrijus: Paying work? Isn't work supposed to pay you?
19:48 Juerd Or do you live in soviet russia? :)
19:48 stevan we could always fork the project and call our new language Paskell :P
19:48 obra noooooooooooooooooo
19:49 stevan Haskerl?
19:49 theorbtwo Man, the #haskellers didn't take the bait.
19:50 theorbtwo (21:36:51) ***SamB wonders how you would know the mapping
19:50 theorbtwo (21:36:55) SamB: for @docs, I mean
19:50 theorbtwo (21:37:08) SamB: well, @index is probably even harder
19:50 theorbtwo (21:37:14) theorbtwo: Hmm?
19:50 theorbtwo (21:37:20) theorbtwo: I could do it in Perl pretty easily.
19:50 Juerd theorbtwo: Don't troll in friendly territories... :)
19:51 Juerd theorbtwo: Try #php or #python.
19:52 stevan ok I have done enough damage for one day, bye all
19:52 Juerd Bye and thanks for today's damage!
19:52 theorbtwo I wasn't actually trolling.
19:52 theorbtwo Much.
19:53 stevan autrijus: dont fret too much, Larry may change his mind? If not, you can have Ingy arm wrestle him at the hackathon
19:54 autrijus damnit.
19:54 autrijus I implemented larry's semantics.
19:55 autrijus bindings.t still all passes.
19:55 autrijus commented out full thunking for future reference.
19:55 * theorbtwo nods.
19:55 Juerd autrijus: Just to avoid that it takes you a long time again before you read an answer: I replied to your message :)
19:56 Juerd It may of course be overruled, but I wouldn't know how the other answer would fit in with Perl logic.
19:58 autrijus Juerd: I replied to yours :)
19:58 autrijus so please sanity check and reply to me.
19:58 coet has joined #perl6
19:59 autrijus anyone want to run a smoke for me? :)
19:59 * autrijus praises monadic composition for swiftly responding to drastically shifting specs
20:00 obra heh
20:00 obra autrijus: I'll smoke
20:00 autrijus cool. just "make smoke"
20:00 autrijus and post smoke.html somewher.e
20:01 obra  only 40 revs behind
20:01 Juerd autrijus: I'm going to upgrade and make pugs first, so it may take a while longer than five minutes
20:01 autrijus Juerd: that's fine, I'll wait for obra :)
20:01 gaal autrijus, make smoke started, but ETA 30 minutes (r2260)
20:01 Juerd What is a smoke, precisely?
20:01 obra 30 minutes to smoke these days?
20:02 autrijus I'm surprised too
20:02 autrijus it's 5~10min here
20:02 gaal from make clean, on my slower machine... i'm not make cleaning this time though
20:02 castaway ouch
20:02 autrijus gaal: ouch. I think one smoker (obra) is sufficient
20:02 Juerd fsck
20:02 Juerd Last time I compiled pugs as root
20:02 * castaway wont try then
20:02 Juerd Now I can't do it as non-root because of permissions.
20:02 Juerd me--
20:03 castaway then change the permissions ;)
20:03 gaal i think i just don't have enough RAM and the machien starts swapping.
20:03 castaway chown -R
20:03 Juerd castaway: That sounds like work.
20:03 castaway nah
20:03 castaway its one command
20:03 autrijus sudo chown -R juerd .
20:03 Juerd castaway: Not if you count the mount --binds I have :)
20:03 obra jesus. so much churn
20:04 Juerd linking...
20:04 Juerd (as root ;-))
20:04 obra Juerd is beating me
20:05 gaal i have a faster machine, but it doesn't have the modern modules, so i can only 'make test' on it. that's my primary incentive for porting the test moduels to p6 :)
20:05 integral is now known as integral|ping
20:06 integral|ping is now known as integral
20:06 * theorbtwo sees the integral.
20:06 * castaway watches a fuzzy white baby camel on TV.. cute!
20:07 * obra is Compiling Pugs.Bind
20:07 Juerd autrijus: 3/3, 100%.
20:08 * theorbtwo sighs, tries a Makeish project on the theory that it should be something I can handle.
20:08 castaway Makeish?
20:09 theorbtwo (Converting the build from ghc --make to makefile-based, so that it can take advantage of make -j2.)
20:10 autrijus Juerd: 3/3 100%?
20:10 autrijus Juerd: you didn't "make smoke"?
20:10 gaal theorbtwo, prolly better to add -j2 caps to ghc --make
20:10 obra there seems to be a missing dep on Test::TAP::Model
20:10 * obra is installing it
20:11 gaal because that has lots of smarts to it.
20:11 obra it just failed to run since the module was missing, rather than doing something friendly
20:12 * obra is in t/magical/pid.t
20:12 gaal obra, what would you suggest it do?
20:12 autrijus gaal: in "make smoke" check for existence of Test::TAP::Model and bail out with appropriate msg
20:12 autrijus that is, in run-smoke.pl
20:12 * obra nods
20:12 obra t/subroutines/subroutine.t
20:12 obra pugs: List.genericDrop: negative argument
20:13 obra are you expecting 100% passing right now?
20:14 autrijus fixed.
20:14 obra t/syntax/symbol_table.t
20:14 theorbtwo We try to keep compatable to any make including GNU, not-GNU, and nmake, right?
20:14 obra I'll let this smoke finish ;)
20:14 autrijus no, I'm not. I expect ~100 failure.
20:14 obra ok
20:14 autrijus you'll see a smoke.html. post it :)
20:14 autrijus it is beautiful to see.
20:14 obra t/syntax/list_*
20:15 autrijus genericDrop fixed.
20:15 obra are there any large sections after t/statements?
20:15 autrijus prolly not
20:16 autrijus rules is the largest
20:16 obra thank god clkao doesn't have this big a test suite.
20:16 Juerd autrijus: No. What is make smoke?
20:16 obra Or we'd need to find him a dual-core laptop.
20:16 autrijus nearly 5000 tests ;)
20:16 Juerd autrijus: 3/3, 100% was re your mail.
20:16 autrijus Juerd: oh. cool.
20:16 autrijus Juerd: make smoke is a prettier "make test".
20:16 * Juerd aborts make test and runs make smoke instead
20:17 gaal r2263 adds early death on missing Test::TAP::prereqs.
20:17 Juerd It's recompiling and relinking :)
20:17 obra t/var/default_scalar.t
20:17 obra pugs: cannot cast from VHandle {handle: tmpfile} to [Char]
20:17 obra t/junction/junction_functions.t
20:17 Juerd And telling me it wants a module.
20:17 gaal i got errors on want.t
20:18 obra t/junction/misc_junctions.t
20:18 obra # Looks like you planned 47 tests, but ran 35
20:18 obra # Looks like you failed 18 tests of 35
20:18 obra Can't modify constant item
20:18 obra Val (VJunc all(any(4,5),any(5,6)))
20:19 * obra wonders if he'll run out of battery before or after the test finishes
20:19 * obra should have done this on the big machine
20:19 castaway ;)
20:20 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=450780  # I love it when assumptions of many languages come together in one thread.
20:20 gaal t/builtins/want....FAILED tests 11-14, 16
20:20 gaal (msys)
20:21 gaal t/data_types/mixed_multi_dimensional....FAILED tests 17, 19, 21-25, 29-30
20:21 gaal t/data_types/nested_arrays....FAILED tests 1, 3-4, 6                        
20:21 gaal t/data_types/multi_dimensional_array....FAILED tests 1, 3-5, 10-16, 21-25, 29-31
20:22 gaal t/pugsbugs/subscripts_and_context....FAILED tests 1-2                        
20:22 gaal (this is for r2260)
20:22 autrijus gaal: smoke.html :)
20:22 gaal soon :)
20:22 Juerd !@#$^%$##$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%$$#!@%@#%!@#$%$$$
20:22 autrijus Juerd: ?
20:23 Juerd CPANPLUS--  # Why are you checking signatures all of a sudden? And ignoring force for them?
20:23 castaway cos its broke.
20:23 castaway (my CPANPLUS usd to work til I upgraded it :( )
20:23 Juerd Developers everywhere, don't change the defaults if that means things stop working without further configuration!
20:23 Juerd damnit!
20:23 Juerd castaway: Same here, for the nth time.
20:23 autrijus what!?
20:23 autrijus kane turned on sigs checking silently?
20:23 * castaway should go back to 0.4999
20:23 obra whoa! debian ghc-cvs is 20050331
20:24 Juerd autrijus: I never did, so I assume he did.
20:24 autrijus wtf. :(
20:24 Juerd And now it fails in more spectacular ways. I'm switching to CPAN.pm
20:24 autrijus good call.
20:24 * castaway sighs.
20:25 Juerd (You know, not-programming SUCKS and sometimes I want to die. I haven't used either CPAN or CPANPLUS on my home linux box for over 5 months!)
20:28 obra the new detection doesn't work if I have Test::TAP::Model but not Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
20:28 Juerd I don't find 'make smoke's output specifically pretty so far...
20:28 autrijus Juerd: the smoke.html will be pretty.
20:29 Juerd Ah!
20:29 * obra is into the rules tests
20:29 Juerd lists/
20:29 gaal obra, weird, looking into it.
20:29 autrijus and I think I fixed 80% of failures.
20:29 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html r2260
20:29 * obra starts a second smoke on the fast box
20:29 obra autrijus: should I stop the new smoke and svnup?
20:29 autrijus obra: right
20:29 autrijus danke
20:30 autrijus Juerd:
20:30 autrijus    my $c = (1,2,(3,4));
20:30 autrijus what's +$c?
20:30 obra autrijus: resmoking
20:31 autrijus I think it's 3 at all times.
20:31 autrijus so the test is wrong
20:31 Juerd autrijus: I think it's 4.
20:31 autrijus explain.
20:31 cognominal autrijus: is it 4 ou ref to array?
20:31 obra pugs-- # only using one cpu for tests
20:31 autrijus I thought "," never flattens its operands when running in item cxt
20:31 autrijus or it always does?
20:32 wolverian () are the list constructors, afaik, and lists flatten in plural context
20:32 cognominal    my $c = (1, 2, [ 3, 4 ] ); print +$c  # 3
20:32 wolverian (unlike arrays)
20:32 Juerd I thought it always would...
20:32 cognominal    my $c = (1, 2, ( 3, 4 ) ); print +$c  # 4
20:32 gaal obra, the new detection did in fact work for me in exactly the situation you mentioned...
20:32 Juerd wolverian: No, comma is the list constructor
20:32 wolverian Juerd: hmm. I thought I read larry's posts lately on p6l to say otherwise, or at least to say that ()s aren't simple grouping anymore
20:32 autrijus hm, it always does.
20:33 autrijus that's news to me.
20:33 wolverian but I might have confused the issue.
20:33 obra gaal: hm. it didn't for me :/
20:33 autrijus ok, let's suppose it always does. thanks juerd!
20:34 gaal what do you mean by not work? what are you expecting?
20:34 cognominal I think that if you assign a list to a scalar , it becomes a ref to an array
20:35 Juerd autrijus: I think lists in lists flatten. Only the topmost level that has context does not.
20:35 obra gaal: the error says I need either one module or the other
20:35 obra gaal: and it failed out when I had one but not the other
20:35 obra or did I misread the error?
20:35 autrijus Juerd: does list pass slurpy context to its operands?
20:35 autrijus Juerd: or it preserves the outer context?
20:35 cognominal so "my $c = [1, 2 ]" is equivalent to "my $c = (1, 2)"
20:35 Juerd autrijus: i.e., in foo( (1,2,(3,4),(5,6) ), with foo (Str $foo), the stringification of a 6 element array is passed.
20:35 gaal ah, yes; should it say exactly which is missing? i can do that :)
20:36 Juerd autrijus: I don't know, but I think it'd be wise to pass slurpy context
20:36 obra gaal: so it needs both modules?
20:36 gaal yes, it does
20:36 autrijus Juerd: I'm surprised.
20:36 autrijus Juerd: I think only pass slurpy context when we are in rvalue
20:36 obra thhen yes, it should tell you what you're missing
20:36 autrijus right?
20:36 obra wow. new smoke is fast
20:36 gaal obra: i make do with only the ::Model, and run the htmlmatrix on another mahcine that has it.
20:36 Juerd autrijus: TBH, I'm not AT ALL sure about how lists in lists in scalar context should behave.
20:37 gaal you can do that too eith 'perl -w util/yaml_harness.pl'
20:37 Juerd autrijus: lists in scalar context are new to me, and as comma is infix and chained, I don't see how it can force any context onto its operands, while it'll have to to make anything valid syntax.
20:37 Juerd autrijus: And in that respect, keeping item context may even make more sense than flattening.
20:37 autrijus Juerd: so I'll make it context-propagating.
20:37 autrijus as is the case now.
20:38 autrijus does a reference to a junction autothread?
20:38 autrijus my $x = \\\(1|2); my $y = $x + 3
20:39 obra is there a way to find out pugs' coverage?
20:39 autrijus obra: not currently
20:39 autrijus obra: oh but we have synopses coverage
20:39 autrijus just not haskell code coverage
20:39 * obra nods
20:39 autrijus Juerd:
20:39 autrijus my $x = (1|'2'); $x.ref
20:39 autrijus currently it gives
20:39 autrijus ('Int' | 'Str')
20:40 autrijus should it be 'Junction'?
20:40 Juerd Yes!
20:40 Juerd But according to Larry, NO.
20:40 Juerd According to Damian, Yes.
20:40 * obra tries to figure out why Test::Harness doesn't sort the files it runs
20:40 autrijus wtf?
20:40 Juerd Larry wants it to be invalid to assign a junction to a variable.
20:40 autrijus what according to you?
20:40 autrijus what is defined(1|undef) ?
20:40 Juerd Unless you "use Junctions;", to enable the feature (oh come on.)
20:41 obra fsck.com/~jesse/smoke.html
20:41 Juerd autrijus: I cannot answer your question
20:41 autrijus obra++
20:41 autrijus ok. :)
20:41 autrijus I'll just keep it from regressing
20:41 Juerd autrijus: I think it must be 'Junction', but that has to mean Junction is part of Any, which it is not, because autothreading is default.
20:41 autrijus obra: uh, I want css too
20:42 obra 11 minutes for a smoke, I think
20:42 autrijus obra: care to upload fsck.com/~jesse/util/testgraph.css ?
20:42 gaal obra: upload util/testgraph.css
20:42 Juerd autrijus: any<Int Str> would be more consistent with other junction semantics...
20:42 obra you only told me to copy smoke.html ;)
20:42 obra hang on
20:42 gaal on some servers, that won't work and you have to inline it in the html :(
20:42 autrijus gaal: I like inlining by default
20:42 autrijus makes little sense to me to not inline
20:42 gaal this used to be automated with the -e option, but nothingmuch broke it :)
20:43 autrijus not fun :)
20:43 obra now?
20:43 gaal subscripts_and_context.t still fails on msys at r2267 btw.
20:43 Juerd operators/eq.t
20:44 Juerd Where do all these tests come from? Last time I ran make test, it took less than a minute! :)
20:44 Juerd (That was when I still wrote tests.)
20:44 obra 4422 ok 60 failed
20:44 obra changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp:  587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (81/4418,
20:44 gaal there used to be 4500 earlier today :)
20:44 obra gah. botched the topic.
20:45 obra my paste foo is losing
20:45 gaal r1773? that's a bit old :)
20:45 Juerd obra: Irssi? /topic <tab>
20:45 obra and I'm out of battery. (stretched too long for the smoke)
20:45 gaal filetest.t
20:46 obra changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | r1773/winxp:  587/4256, smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (81/4418, r2232), Mac OS X (160/4483, r2216), Linux (60/4482, 2267) | pugs.kwiki.org
20:46 * obra waves
20:46 autrijus see ya
20:46 theorbtwo Oh, later, autrijus.
20:46 gaal new smoke in a coupla minutes.
20:47 Juerd Another module I don't have.
20:47 Juerd Bye obra
20:47 theorbtwo er, oh, later, obra.
20:50 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html r2267
21:05 obra back
21:06 gaal t/statements/return.t broke.
21:07 gaal oh, plenty of breakages in 2269 :( smoke eta 8 min.
21:19 wolverian has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:21 gaal t/builtins/lists/grep.t and map have errors too
21:22 gaal making fresh smok 2271, be a while.
21:31 obra        http://fsck.com/~jesse/smoke.html
21:31 obra 2269
21:31 gaal '71 ready in a bit.
21:35 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:39 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html 2271 msys
21:40 gaal if you call testgraph.pl with -e, it'll inline css again.
21:40 theorbtwo Grr.
21:40 gaal ?
21:40 theorbtwo How do people debug mac problems?
21:41 theorbtwo I'm flying blind the whole time.
21:48 autrijus r2278 should return the tree to sanity.
21:49 theorbtwo Sanity?  Pugs, sane?
21:50 gaal r2275 smoke up; '78 running.
21:51 autrijus I'm running a round of '78 smoke now too
21:51 autrijus I think it's safe to call it preflight.
21:51 autrijus anyone up to look at the last 25 changes
21:51 * gaal starts a smoke on linux too
21:51 autrijus and update ChangeLog?
21:51 * gaal is
21:51 autrijus danke
21:54 autrijus hm no, still failures
21:55 autrijus 4482 test cases: 4461 ok, 21 failed, 908 todo, 24 skipped and 3 unexpectedly succeeded
21:56 gaal on balance, that isn't bad :)
21:56 autrijus much better than I have a reason to hope :)
21:57 gaal r2261 ("hash stringification works again") - is this a bugfix against the last release, or just against a breakage that happened this week?
21:57 autrijus this week.
21:57 autrijus ok. every failure is now junction related.
21:58 autrijus fixing that.
21:59 gaal i think i can't help much with the changelog - anything not trivial and i'm not sure if it's from this week or not :(
22:00 gaal perhaps we need a convention in svn ci messages? + for new, ! for fix?
22:00 autrijus k
22:00 theorbtwo Or individual checkers-in should modify the changelog when they write something changelog-worthy?
22:01 autrijus that too
22:01 gaal that's a good idea
22:02 gaal r2257 is the last ChangeLog update, Autrijus. my guess is only a few of these commits should be mentioned in the changelog - sorry i can't help much more than that :(
22:05 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html 2278
22:05 autrijus no prob at all.
22:05 autrijus thanks a lot
22:05 nothingmuch evening
22:05 gaal t/statements/given.t
22:05 gaal pugs.exe: Prelude.head: empty list
22:05 gaal and still problems with junctions
22:05 gaal hey nothingmuch!
22:06 nothingmuch heya
22:06 nothingmuch stevan: ping
22:06 autrijus given.t is fixed
22:06 autrijus I'm resmoking now -- you don't need to do that yet
22:06 gaal k
22:07 gaal nothingmuch, hey. i noticed that testgraph.pl now warns about renaming the css file -- twice every time it's run. proabay a bug? anyway, i've ci'ed a hack to revive the inlining of the css, and there's a feeling it should be on by default. care to look into it?
22:08 nothingmuch sure
22:08 nothingmuch want to patch HTML::Matrix to allow inline CSS?
22:08 nothingmuch should be pretty easy
22:08 gaal if you walk me through the darcs commands :)
22:08 nothingmuch sure
22:09 nothingmuch that way we can kill N birds with M<N stoned
22:09 nothingmuch s
22:09 nothingmuch stoned... ;-)
22:10 gaal insufficient RAM--
22:10 nothingmuch ram++
22:10 nothingmuch damn, there's a fly in here, it's driving me nuts
22:19 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html 2280
22:26 kakos has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
22:27 NathanY- is now known as NathanJY
22:28 nothingmuch yay! NathanJY is back!1
22:29 autrijus cutting a preflight now.
22:32 autrijus preflight #1
22:32 autrijus http://wagner.elixus.org/~aut​rijus/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.1.tar.gz
22:32 autrijus 732535 bytes
22:33 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html 2283
22:34 autrijus good. that means preflight should be clean to you
22:34 gaal bytes still in transit.
22:35 Juerd http://juerd.nl/smoke.html
22:35 nothingmuch <style petal:cond="page/has_inline_css" petal:content="page/inline_css" type="text/css">
22:35 Juerd 4486 test cases: 4356 ok, 130 failed, 890 todo, 27 skipped and 1 unexpectedly succeeded
22:38 nothingmuch you should have one from me too at some point
22:40 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
22:40 autrijus I think I'm good to fly as soon as gaal finishes smoking the preflight.
22:40 autrijus anybody else smoking?
22:40 wilx has joined #perl6
22:40 Juerd autrijus: It's a bit older than the preflight, but see url xx:37
22:40 Juerd On UTC+xx02
22:40 autrijus Juerd: yeah, it's ancient now :)
22:40 Juerd Sorry
22:40 autrijus no prob at all!
22:41 autrijus appreciated
22:41 * autrijus writing release announcement
22:41 Juerd Have no time for another smoke
22:41 autrijus that's fine
22:41 nothingmuch ld: Undefined symbols:
22:41 nothingmuch _PugsziAST_zddmshow2_closure
22:41 nothingmuch ....
22:41 autrijus nothingmuch: rm src/Pugs/AST.o and remake
22:41 gaal nm, try make clean, *real* clean
22:41 autrijus actually just kill AST.o will probably do
22:41 nothingmuch no AST.o
22:42 nothingmuch and made clean before it
22:42 castaway make squeaky_clean?
22:42 nothingmuch trying again
22:42 autrijus nuke the tree?
22:42 theorbtwo make clean is pretty clean.
22:42 nothingmuch there's a make squeaky_clean?
22:43 nothingmuch this fly is as big as a stork
22:44 theorbtwo Jess was joking.
22:44 gaal nothingmuch needs a big cat in the house
22:45 gaal t/builtins/io/io_redirect_to_scalar.t
22:45 gaal c:\MinGW\bin\perl.exe: *** WFSO timed out
22:45 autrijus WFSO?
22:45 gaal no idea :)
22:46 nothingmuch gaal: i have 3
22:46 autrijus ok, that's fine, continue :)
22:46 nothingmuch ok, rm -rf
22:46 nothingmuch make purge
22:46 nothingmuch rm -rf stc
22:46 nothingmuch grr
22:46 nothingmuch src
22:46 nothingmuch and trying again
22:51 autrijus gaal: how's the smoke going?
22:51 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
22:52 nothingmuch autrijus: with no make optimized it seemed to have worked
22:52 wilx has joined #perl6
22:52 gaal just after rules
22:52 nothingmuch finishing builtins right now
22:52 gaal i forgot to make optimized, so it was slow :(
22:52 autrijus that's fine :)
22:52 autrijus so far so good?
22:52 autrijus except for the io_redirect_to_scalar
22:52 * theorbtwo sighs.
22:53 theorbtwo Time for bed.
22:53 gaal yes. uploading.
22:53 autrijus night theorbtwo!
22:53 autrijus ok, fly!
22:53 * autrijus waits for gaal's url :)
22:54 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html 6.2.1 preflight
22:54 gaal 224 files        4512 test cases: 4512 ok, 0 failed, 903 todo, 37 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded       100.00%
22:54 autrijus looks very good.
22:55 autrijus r2288 is 6.2.1-final.
22:55 autrijus it's on PAUSE now.
22:55 nothingmuch goody goody gumdrops
22:55 * gaal cheers
22:55 autrijus gaal++
22:55 autrijus gaal++
22:55 autrijus gaal++
22:55 autrijus #perl6++
22:55 gaal autrijus**
22:55 gaal autrijus**
22:55 gaal autrijus**
22:55 obra wow. make optimized is slow :)
22:56 gaal it pays off, obra.
22:56 gaal in make test.
22:56 obra gaal: sure.
22:56 obra my non-optimized make test is 9 minutes
22:56 obra will see what this is
22:57 gaal autrijus, can we / should we perhaps make make optimized the default from no on?
22:58 autrijus gaal: I don't know :)
22:58 autrijus maybe "make test" should imply "make optimized"
22:58 autrijus and "make" is just "make"
22:58 obra why _not_ build optimized?
22:59 autrijus and maybe "make test" always generates smoke.html when there's Test::TAP::Model.
22:59 gaal is make w/o -O == -O0?
22:59 autrijus gaal: no, it's -O on strategic modules
22:59 autrijus obra: because it's much slower to build
22:59 autrijus but yeah, I can see it being the default
22:59 gaal autrijus, when we have the new harness framework that'll definitely happen
23:00 wilx` has joined #perl6
23:00 obra autrijus: slower to build but results in a more positive impression of pugs.
23:00 gaal make test will emit the same output as it does today, but acummulate data in the model too
23:00 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
23:00 gaal smoke.html needs HTMLMatrix, and if it's found, the matrix will be generated.
23:01 autrijus obra: sure, I agree. between you and gaal I trust you will commit the neccessary fix :)
23:02 autrijus journal up. sleep now
23:02 autrijus 7am!
23:02 * autrijus waves &
23:02 nothingmuch ciao!
23:02 gaal night!
23:03 obra night autrijus
23:04 obra gaal: I've never touched the build system. how likely are you to be able to dtrt?
23:05 gaal that's a trick question, seeing as i committed someitnh that broke the build not so long ago :)
23:06 obra hah
23:06 obra yeah. 6:30 for an optimized build
23:07 obra http://fsck.com/~jesse/smoke.html for my smoke on latest
23:07 obra 1 failure
23:07 gaal i wonder, how does one influence the environment for a dependency, before actually entering a rule? that looks like what autrijus suggested, but i don;t think make can do that (w/o some crazy hack).
23:07 nothingmuch t/operators/arith.t
23:07 nothingmuch # Looks like you failed 1 tests of 177?
23:07 obra yeah
23:08 wilx` has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:08 nothingmuch it's been failing all week for me
23:08 wilx has joined #perl6
23:08 gaal oh, the NaN is platform dependent.
23:08 gaal i think perhaps that test should be *made* to depend on $*OS
23:08 nothingmuch =/
23:08 gaal because it doesn't fail for me.
23:09 nothingmuch bummer
23:09 gaal well, either that or rewrite arithmetic not to depend on the haskell primitives. as if
23:09 nothingmuch gaal: yaml_harness should probably inline css by default, btw
23:10 gaal yes, i know :)
23:10 nothingmuch or rewrite GHC to not depend on platform values ;-)
23:10 nothingmuch how is it coming along?
23:10 gaal getting kinda late now, though
23:10 nothingmuch if i can darcs pull your change from some webspace i can see if my template change is good enough, and release
23:10 nothingmuch blah blah blah
23:10 nothingmuch it's holiday
23:10 nothingmuch you can do it ;-)
23:10 gaal heh
23:11 wilx` has joined #perl6
23:11 gaal k k k
23:12 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:17 gaal beh! i hate scms with versions of the fiels inside my view. i keep editing those by mistake :(
23:17 gaal (which reminds me:
23:17 gaal set grepprg=grep\ -n\ -r\ --exclude=\*.svn\*\ --exclude=\*.o\ --exclude=\*.hi
23:17 gaal .)
23:19 wilx` has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:20 wilx` has joined #perl6
23:22 nothingmuch versions of the files inside what view?
23:23 gaal i was editing ./_darcs/current/lib/Test/TAP/HTMLMatrix.pm by mistake
23:25 nothingmuch oi
23:25 machack666 has joined #perl6
23:25 gaal adding tests now, anyway
23:25 gaal don't know whether to depend on Storable though.
23:26 nothingmuch storable?
23:26 gaal actually, it wonr; help much.
23:26 nothingmuch why?
23:26 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:27 nothingmuch because of the example?
23:27 jabbot has joined #perl6
23:27 gaal for dclone, but never mind
23:27 nothingmuch dclone?!
23:27 gaal wont' help here much
23:27 nothingmuch what are you cloning?
23:27 gaal calm down :)
23:27 gaal instead of a fixture
23:27 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:27 jabbot has joined #perl6
23:28 jabbot pugs - 2281 - * fix a hardcoded 'head' in continue()
23:28 jabbot pugs - 2282 - * revert cxt propagation for ,
23:28 jabbot pugs - 2283 - * fix incorrect fix to s09eg.t
23:28 jabbot pugs - 2284 - * none().pick is always undef.
23:28 jabbot pugs - 2285 - * comma does propagate its context.
23:29 jabbot pugs - 2286 - * repair parrot compiler
23:29 jabbot pugs - 2287 - * preflight!
23:29 jabbot pugs - 2288 - * This be Pugs, version 6.2.1.
23:29 jabbot pugs - 2289 - * nuke redundant line
23:29 jabbot pugs - 2290 - * typo
23:37 crysflame hello 6.2.1
23:38 machack666 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:38 machack666 has joined #perl6
23:39 gaal nm, how do i negate a condition in petal?
23:39 nothingmuch i did that already
23:40 machack666 junctive variables also do not do as you expect in terms of expressions.
23:40 nothingmuch just check in the code
23:40 nothingmuch it's ok if it's broken
23:40 nothingmuch this is darcs
23:40 nothingmuch you can amend record
23:40 nothingmuch and unpull
23:40 nothingmuch and unrecord
23:40 nothingmuch and whatnot
23:41 machack666 case in point, when running the $j ** 100 vs $j * $j * $j ... (100 x) I had a total system halt due to completely used swap space
23:41 gaal tov how do i ci in this fancy darcs of yours? :)
23:41 nothingmuch darcs w -ls <-- svn status
23:41 nothingmuch darcs record
23:42 nothingmuch interactive prompt
23:42 machack666 the point is, if you don't know that a variable is a junction and it can hide behind the normal mathematical expressions, then even a simple expression can bring down the system
23:42 machack666 = bad
23:42 nothingmuch will ask you per hunk whether to inclue or not
23:42 nothingmuch and then you give it the name
23:42 nothingmuch annd blammo
23:42 nothingmuch after that, darcs init a repo somewhere on webspace
23:42 nothingmuch and darcs push to it
23:43 gaal how do i restore my meessed up fiel in the darcs secret dir?
23:43 gaal don't feel like couting again.
23:43 machack666 that kind of behavior should be explicitly requested by the programmer, and not inherently a sinkhole which could trip up anyone not expecting it.l
23:44 nothingmuch darcs secret dir?
23:44 nothingmuch ah
23:44 nothingmuch i'd say darcs get again from http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/...
23:44 Juerd machack666: Try **(1..Inf)
23:45 gaal 2:44. i'll get you for this :)
23:45 Juerd machack666: Perl is known for not keeping people from shooting themselves in the feet
23:45 gaal what's the fuill path again?
23:45 nothingmuch and then just replace the old _darcs/current with the new _darcs/current
23:45 nothingmuch Juerd: i thought perl 6 is supposed to fix this
23:45 Juerd machack666: A programmer should know his data - always.
23:45 nothingmuch no safer way
23:45 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.wooblin​g.org/Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix/
23:45 Juerd nothingmuch: No, if you want to do stupid things, Perl will let you.
23:45 machack666 true, but I'm not sure where this behavior is desirable beyond what you can accomplish with hyperops
23:46 machack666 other than perhaps combinametrics
23:46 gaal Juerd, i think nm was talking to me, and it's darcs that let me do stupid things :)
23:46 nothingmuch Juerd: there's a diff between giving you enough rope to hang yourself with and giving you a noose.
23:46 Juerd machack666: my $acceptable = SomeClass | SomeOtherClass;
23:46 Juerd machack666: ...
23:46 nothingmuch gaal: eh?
23:46 Juerd machack666: when $acceptable { ... }
23:46 nothingmuch what stupid things did darcs let you do
23:47 machack666 hmm...
23:47 * nothingmuch thinks the way junctions are headed
23:47 nothingmuch that is, you can pass them around your control structure
23:47 machack666 DBI->connect($scalar____or_is_it);
23:47 machack666 it could come in handy... :D
23:47 nothingmuch in a std var
23:47 nothingmuch but then if you send them into a function it magically changes execution by autothreading
23:47 nothingmuch even if it's completely insane to autothread the target function
23:48 machack666 as long as it is requested, I think it's fine, but it makes it too easy for a poorly written module to misbehave for the entire system
23:48 Juerd nothingmuch: I dislike implicit autothreading.
23:48 nothingmuch because it might be $complex_object->do_dangerous_​activity($input_from_parent);
23:48 nothingmuch perhaps not input from parent
23:48 Juerd nothingmuch: I agree that with implict autothreading, disallowing assignment of junctions is a good default
23:48 Juerd nothingmuch: But I think both should be toggled.
23:48 nothingmuch i think autothreading is very useful
23:48 Juerd Yes, it is
23:49 nothingmuch but only explicitly
23:49 Juerd But it should have syntax.
23:49 Juerd Exactly.
23:49 Juerd And then it's okay to put junctions in variables
23:49 nothingmuch it should have both a syntax as a param to a junction
23:49 nothingmuch that is Any|Junction is stupid
23:49 clkao has joined #perl6
23:49 nothingmuch it should be Any&Autothread
23:49 Juerd Any must include Junction or not be called Any.
23:49 Juerd Just consider that lcfirst any CREATES a junction :)
23:50 machack666 should there be a runtime flag to know if autothreading is currently enabled?
23:50 nothingmuch and you should be able to have a junction flattenning op
23:50 nothingmuch that autothreads the expression it happens in
23:50 nothingmuch like sub_call($a, $b, »*«$junction);
23:50 machack666 define junction flattening
23:50 Juerd Please rewrite with texas quotes
23:50 Juerd My terminal sucks.
23:51 nothingmuch >>*<<$junction <-- just silliness
23:51 machack666 me too
23:51 machack666 </aol>
23:51 Juerd Ah
23:51 nothingmuch anyway, you should have the ability to define both:
23:51 nothingmuch subroutine params that want to be autothreaded
23:51 gaal nm, recorded. now whay?
23:51 Juerd I wonder why sub_call($a, $b, >>$junction<<) isn't used.
23:51 nothingmuch (And return values perhaps rejunctioned)
23:51 nothingmuch and also a way to dejunction from the caller perspective
23:52 wilx`` has joined #perl6
23:52 nothingmuch gaal: darcs pull from form2.org or something
23:52 nothingmuch or even just rsync the repo over there
23:52 wilx` has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:52 gaal pull *from* forum2.org?
23:52 nothingmuch or darcs send
23:52 nothingmuch yep
23:52 nothingmuch or darcs push to forum2.org
23:52 gaal i'm not familiar with the syntax and it's late. can you just give me a command that works pleasE?
23:52 nothingmuch either action requires darcs on the other side
23:52 nothingmuch do you have darcs on formu2.org?
23:52 gaal no.
23:52 nothingmuch okay
23:53 gaal let me just email you a patch :)
23:53 nothingmuch rsync -avz ./ [email@hidden.address]
23:53 nothingmuch in that case 'darcs send'
23:53 nothingmuch it uses sendmail
23:53 nothingmuch and it will know my email
23:53 nothingmuch because it takes the email setting from defaultrepo
23:54 gaal er, why is p6-compiler the default to: address on this?
23:54 nothingmuch ah
23:54 nothingmuch good point
23:54 nothingmuch that's what i set the email to
23:54 nothingmuch because it's not my module per se
23:54 Juerd see Message-ID: <20050222113039.GN24993@c4.convolution.nl>
23:54 Juerd Took a while for me to find it :)
23:56 gaal ah, now i can't even diff against the version i co'ed. good night.
23:57 * gaal zzz&
23:57 Juerd nn
23:57 * Juerd sleepy too
23:57 nothingmuch ciao
23:59 machack666_ has joined #perl6
23:59 nothingmuch Juerd: good post

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