Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-24

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Time Nick Message
00:00 machack666_ network on the fritz .. did you get any of my last statements ($val ~~ any (@results)) ?
00:00 machack666 has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:00 nothingmuch </aol> was the last thing i saw
00:02 machack666_ is now known as machack666
00:02 crysflame 16:51 < machack666> </aol>
00:03 machack666 I said that I thought that there was nothing a junction could accomplish by sub_call(..., >>$junc<<) that we couldn't already accomplish with @res = @objs >>.method(...)
00:04 machack666 you can then have explicit control over the interpretation of the results...if you want an any() instead of an all(), you just test against the precalculated results
00:05 machack666 my @res=@objs>>.meth($a,$b,$c);
00:05 machack666 if (all(@res)) { say "all were true" }
00:05 nothingmuch could you rephrase?
00:05 machack666 else if (any(@res)) { say "some were true" }
00:05 machack666 else { say "none were true" }
00:06 nothingmuch btw, does my $result = sub_call($junction) repack the return values?
00:06 wilx` has joined #perl6
00:06 machack666 that's what's at debate.
00:06 machack666 if we allow junctions, then I think it should, insofar as we have a simple junction
00:06 wilx`` has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00:06 machack666 but what about any(1,2,all(2,3),none("a",5)) ?
00:07 machack666 if it's a uniform junction, it makes sense
00:07 machack666 my argument is that there seems to be little difference in treating junctions this way -- it is highly redundant with hyperops
00:07 nothingmuch i think that threading prototypes should return a junction
00:07 nothingmuch like ops
00:08 machack666 i.e., $j = 1|2|3 ; say $j + 1; # 2|3|4
00:08 nothingmuch they are just junction aware thingies
00:08 nothingmuch but with room for optimisation
00:08 nothingmuch and that anything that is memoizable should be autothreading
00:08 machack666 this seems to be analagous to @a=(1,2,3); say @a>>+<<1
00:08 nothingmuch yes, but hypers are on operations
00:08 nothingmuch junctions are on values
00:09 nothingmuch the distinction is where does it happen
00:09 machack666 i'm  not saying getting rid of junctions
00:09 nothingmuch and that's why i think autothreading is dumb
00:09 machack666 just not being able to treat them as variables
00:09 nothingmuch because it really makes it redundant
00:09 nothingmuch why not?
00:09 machack666 so: given ($x) { when 1|2|3|"grandma's panties" {...}} # ok
00:10 machack666 I think autothreading causes too many problems for it to be the default
00:10 nothingmuch i think junctions are most useful for composing predicates
00:10 nothingmuch and that if i want to say if
00:10 nothingmuch if (is_funky(1|3)){ } it should dwim
00:10 nothingmuch but also equivelently:
00:11 nothingmuch sub do_on_funky (..., my $thing, ...){ if (is_funky($thing) { ... } }
00:11 machack666 it just seems too fuzzy for cases like this:
00:11 nothingmuch do_on_funky(1|3);
00:11 broquaint has joined #perl6
00:12 nothingmuch The purpose of a junction is to allow for performing several tests at a
00:12 nothingmuch given time, with the testing code needing no knowledge of that junctions
00:12 nothingmuch are present
00:12 nothingmuch -- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.pe​rl6.language/browse_thread/thread/dc72f01f5​027f048/ed289644593eb886#ed289644593eb886
00:12 machack666 package Naive::Module; sub naive_exp ($base, $exp) { my $ret = $base;  while ($exp--) {$ret *= $base}; $ret}
00:12 machack666 naive_exp(1|2|3|4,100)
00:13 machack666 # ...syslock
00:13 machack666 # due to whole hd used for swap
00:13 machack666 wait
00:13 Juerd nn
00:14 machack666 if the autothreading happens at the point of the func call, then we're only calling the code effectively for the 4 cases of the junction
00:14 machack666 and $base is not considered a junction
00:14 nothingmuch right
00:15 machack666 if it is ever possible for us to pass an actual junction as a single datatype which later autothreads, then I see that there could be problems down the line
00:15 nothingmuch it should be limited to (cpus)+1
00:15 nothingmuch autothreading shouldn't be so greedy though
00:15 nothingmuch at most
00:15 nothingmuch +1 to ensure that behavior is unpredictable
00:15 machack666 but if autothreading is the default, then we don't need to worry about that in the case of sub calls.
00:15 machack666 which protects package semantics
00:15 machack666 from unexpected behaviors
00:16 nothingmuch lets agree:
00:16 machack666 the world is now safer for naive module authors...
00:16 nothingmuch autothreading is an optimisation
00:16 machack666 :D
00:16 nothingmuch what if naive_exp handles writing to disk, btw?
00:16 machack666 hmm
00:17 machack666 since ooe is not defined for junctions, I assume we'd get some funky results
00:17 nothingmuch what if it does if ($user_id == $value){ ... write to data file ... }
00:17 nothingmuch and if i pass in $user_id and $value
00:18 nothingmuch and I want them to be both junctions
00:18 nothingmuch or one of them
00:18 machack666 or at least the possibility exists
00:18 nothingmuch or none of them
00:18 nothingmuch it should behave in a sane way
00:18 nothingmuch junctions are values
00:18 nothingmuch not control flow
00:18 nothingmuch hyper ops are control flow
00:18 nothingmuch they are related in that junctions are something that is good to hyper up
00:18 nothingmuch but they should be values unless someone asks to hyper them
00:19 nothingmuch or they are sent into something like a builtin op
00:19 nothingmuch or something that can be memoized (explicitly marked as pure)
00:19 machack666 so $j+1 is equivalent to any($j.values >>+<< 1 ) ?
00:19 machack666 (or whatever the composition operator was for junction creation)
00:20 nothingmuch not exactly
00:20 nothingmuch because '+' is pure
00:20 nothingmuch it doesn't matter
00:20 nothingmuch but if a junction gets into some complex code,
00:20 nothingmuch so yes, they are equiv
00:20 nothingmuch because whoever is using it does not know of the complexities
00:20 nothingmuch (new programmer in a project, someone using a CPAN module, perl newbie)
00:21 nothingmuch and suddenly the person gets data corruption
00:21 nothingmuch because of a implicit concurrency on unsafe code
00:21 nothingmuch then we're in deep crap
00:21 crysflame this problem affects all programming languages using junctions, right?
00:21 nothingmuch and it could be as simple as
00:21 nothingmuch my $val = $bar - 2;
00:21 nothingmuch $foo += $val;
00:22 nothingmuch $bar += $foo/2;
00:22 nothingmuch suddenly all your math is wrong
00:22 nothingmuch your data files suck
00:22 crysflame tangentially, should junction support be disabled by default and only enabled by a pragma?
00:22 nothingmuch your database driver complains about broken constraints
00:22 machack666 that's Larry's contention
00:22 crysflame use DBI # this module uses junctions, which you have not enabled
00:22 nothingmuch crysflame: no, they're very useful to represent data
00:23 machack666 junction support ok for conditionals
00:23 nothingmuch i would like to say if (1|2 == $expected){ }
00:23 machack666 but not for variable assignment
00:23 nothingmuch machack666: i disagree
00:23 nothingmuch ther'es nothing wrong with them
00:23 crysflame so
00:23 nothingmuch as long as they keep getting passed down
00:23 machack666 </larry's opinion>
00:23 nothingmuch oi vey
00:23 crysflame (a) junctions wreak havoc on those who don't suspect they're there
00:23 crysflame i like larry's opinion
00:24 crysflame it protects the masses from the worst of it, while keeping the simplest use (if $a == 0|1) functional
00:24 nothingmuch they don't if they are not exploded into threads
00:24 crysflame sure they do
00:24 crysflame seek($fh, $pos)
00:24 crysflame voila, chaos
00:24 crysflame which $fh does $fh degrade to?
00:24 crysflame which position?
00:24 nothingmuch that should be a fatal error
00:24 crysflame why? $fh is a junction of multiple filehandles
00:24 crysflame $pos is a junction of a bunch of positions
00:24 crysflame i see no reason that should be a fatal error
00:25 crysflame i do see that it's wildly confusing
00:25 crysflame and that it's so unlikely to be useful that it could be considered an error condition
00:25 nothingmuch and the current C lib inspired definition is not prepared for this kind of abstraction
00:25 nothingmuch because seek is at the lowest level
00:25 nothingmuch of abstraction
00:25 crysflame okay
00:25 crysflame pick something other than seek then
00:25 machack666 crysflame: in your case, we'd end up with m x n seek ops
00:25 nothingmuch if we switch to buffer oriented abstraction, where our buffers can write themselves to junctive points in the files
00:25 nothingmuch then it could make more sense
00:25 nothingmuch machack666: which seek would be the last seek?
00:25 nothingmuch i say things that don't make sense
00:25 machack666 undefined
00:26 machack666 I agree; it's garbage
00:26 nothingmuch like IO ops
00:26 crysflame okay, so
00:26 nothingmuch and system calls in general
00:26 machack666 depends on the underlying algorithm
00:26 crysflame i chose badly by saying seek()
00:26 nothingmuch anything that is not 'perl intornal'
00:26 crysflame how about "factor()"
00:26 machack666 for junction storage...probably a map of some sort
00:26 nothingmuch no, seek is an excellent choice
00:26 nothingmuch cannot eat junctions
00:26 crysflame no it's not, because you're complexifying it all because it's a C function
00:26 crysflame i was trying to make a general point
00:26 crysflame :|
00:26 crysflame but that's okay. i trust y'all :)
00:27 nothingmuch (3|4)! == (6|24);
00:27 nothingmuch like + does
00:27 nothingmuch is add(1, 3) different from +?
00:27 nothingmuch especially now that + is just a multimethod?
00:27 nothingmuch why should factorial() need to say that it can handle junctions?
00:28 nothingmuch why can't the junctions just be passed downwards to say the '*' op that factorial uses
00:28 nothingmuch which knows to do the right thing, since it's a builtin?
00:28 machack666 bbiab
00:28 nothingmuch it's simpler
00:28 nothingmuch for most cases of control flow it's probably more efficient
00:28 nothingmuch because tiny steps are optionally taken
00:28 nothingmuch instead of whole programs repeated on a junctions
00:29 nothingmuch s/s$//;
00:29 nothingmuch and it's consistent
00:29 nothingmuch because factorial($x); # x == junction
00:29 nothingmuch is the same as what you'd expect from (1|4)!;
00:29 nothingmuch if ! were a builtin op
00:30 nothingmuch or to disallow IO completely in any autothreaded dynamic scope
00:30 nothingmuch also it lets you detect such garbage when it reaches seek()
00:30 nothingmuch when you autothreads it makes no sense to remember which values are derived from a junction exploision
00:31 nothingmuch my point is in one sentance:
00:31 nothingmuch if junctions can't safely be put in variables they're worth nothing for onezeroinfinity since the only place where they can be created is in the code that uses them
00:31 nothingmuch and autothreading isn't safe
00:31 nothingmuch period
00:32 nothingmuch (unless we know the op is pure, in which case we can decide whether we pump the junction down or autothread and rejunction, which is really just an optimizer decision)
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00:34 machack666 nothingmuch: you said earlier that hyperops were an example of control flow, while junctions are a combination of values
00:35 machack666 but I see junctions in most cases as a kind of control flow shorthand -- almost a parameterized control flow macro
00:36 machack666 in the case of the simple junctions (if $x = 1|2|3), we're really just abbreviating (if $x == 1 | $x == 2 | $x == 3)
00:37 machack666 to me this seems directly related to control flow.  The fact that a junction datatype would represent multiple values is ancilary to this -- the reason you use a junction is because you want to express the control conditional succinctly
00:39 nothingmuch right
00:39 machack666 nothingmuch: clarify onezeroinfinity.  are you referring to one(), none(), all() ?
00:40 nothingmuch in this example since == is pure
00:40 nothingmuch then it can affect control flow
00:40 nothingmuch it has no side effects
00:40 nothingmuch no, http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?OneZeroInfinityRule
00:40 nothingmuch basically it means if $x == (something that is really many things)
00:41 nothingmuch and not for $value (many things) { if ($x == $value){ } }
00:41 nothingmuch that's how we perceive it too
00:41 machack666 link appears to be borken
00:41 machack666 or blank, actually
00:42 machack666 :)
00:42 nothingmuch sorry, from memory
00:42 nothingmuch http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeroOneInfinityRule
00:42 nothingmuch one zero infinity sounds more natural to me for some reason
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00:43 nothingmuch in this case junctions let us follow the simpler ZeroOne rule
00:43 nothingmuch while getting Infinity for free
00:43 nothingmuch the only way to do this safely is to make a distinction at the edges of the language definition
00:43 nothingmuch between pure primitives, which accept these One<->Infinity thingies
00:44 nothingmuch and external side effect rich primitives
00:44 nothingmuch it is a fatal error to feed them this
00:44 nothingmuch or at least the op always fails
00:44 nothingmuch (use fatals)
00:44 nothingmuch anything else is up to the user to compose
00:45 nothingmuch should declare which param they can explode
00:45 nothingmuch and autothread on it
00:45 nothingmuch ops which are pure
00:45 nothingmuch or which have side effects but can handle junctions
00:45 nothingmuch and statements can also explode junctions into threads
00:45 nothingmuch and pure functions/mutlimethods/whatever can also be autothreaded
00:46 nothingmuch if it looks to be a gain
00:46 nothingmuch these are simple, consistent, relatively safe rules
00:46 nothingmuch which can give a lot of benefit
00:47 nothingmuch i know that if autothreading stays in perl 6 i will never use junctions for more than if (my $value == 1|
00:47 nothingmuch 2);
00:47 nothingmuch whether it's allowed or not
00:47 nothingmuch because overloaded objects and stringification are already not handled properly in p5 by some 90% of the modules that deal with these things
00:47 machack666 when you speak of autothreading, do you actually mean process-type threads, or just the ability to ignore the actual algorithms used to make the match?
00:48 nothingmuch and junctions/autothreading are a much more dangeous thing
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00:48 nothingmuch i think that they're replacable
00:48 nothingmuch e
00:48 machack666 i found some pretty weird idiosyncronicities in pugs' handling of junctions, to be sure
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00:49 nothingmuch i think furthermore that I will be overly paranoid
00:49 nothingmuch and type Any|Junction everywhere I can
00:49 nothingmuch just to make sure that I am not being hurt by anyone else who is too lazy to think about it
00:49 nothingmuch again, because these things hurt me every day in perl 5
00:50 machack666 how about a super to Any and Junction which is the junction of Junction and Any.  something short and catchy
00:50 machack666 and a policy to specify that that is the default parameter type
00:50 nothingmuch i think Any should be that Any
00:50 nothingmuch but that doesn't work well with autothreading
00:51 machack666 we need the ability to have negative traits: my sub thing isnt threadable {..."
00:51 nothingmuch i think we have that
00:52 machack666 well!
00:52 nothingmuch not that specific thing
00:52 nothingmuch but is rw vs. is constant
00:52 nothingmuch and you can apply a role to an object
00:52 nothingmuch and then unapply it later
00:53 machack666 I guess it's just the equivalent of a sub-scoped use() or no() block in p5
00:53 machack666 (oversimplified and off-the-cuff)
00:54 nothingmuch anyway, do you agree with my simple rules for junctions?
00:55 nothingmuch because if not i'd like to see why
00:55 nothingmuch i think i don't get why there is this autothreading-is-good-it-should-be-the-default orgy at all, and I have no clue why some people don't think this is obvious
00:57 * machack666 scrolls up
01:01 machack666 I agree that we should be able to specify which parameters can be autothreaded.  I don't think that code which hasn't declared explicitly its autothread intentions should be expected by default to be autothread safe.  On the other hand, authors who haven't thought about the autothreading issues will ikely not be expecting junction objects as parameters to handle internally.
01:02 machack666 so at least a warn() should suffice ...(although die() may be more appropriate, as you don't want your pg_pl6 procedure to do unpredicable things anyway.
01:03 machack666 I don't know how much semantic parsing we could do on compilation of the sub in question...if we have the is_pure status of all ops involved in the function body, then we could automatically promote the compiled sub to pure.
01:03 machack666 problem is how far you want to traverse the call tree to find this info out while compiling
01:03 machack666 and it only works for static code/no eval()s
01:04 machack666 I agree with your memoizable statement from above.  (I think it was you...)
01:05 machack666 it is sufficient to autothread if a particular sub is memoizable.
01:05 machack666 this has been an enlightening discussion. :(
01:05 machack666 s/:\(/:)/
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01:05 * machack666 hates to be enlightened.  ;)
01:06 machack666 nothingmuch: ping
01:08 machack666 bbiab
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01:39 nothingmuch morning Corion
01:39 nothingmuch are you waking up, or still up?
01:39 Corion Just got home, and possibly need to be back up (and on my bike) in 5 hours %-)
01:39 Corion "need" is relative :)
01:39 Corion The build seems broken?
01:40 * Corion backloggeth
01:40 nothingmuch not that I know
01:41 Corion src/Pugs/Prim.hs:377:4:
01:41 Corion The last statement in a 'do' construct must be an expression
01:41 Corion Hmmm - maybe it's a local patch then ...
01:41 Corion Ah. Yeah. Some conflict. I'll wipe it then ...
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01:46 Corion Oooo. We had a release. Nice :)
01:47 * Corion feels sympathy with Juerd
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01:54 nothingmuch Corion: autothreading sympathy?
01:55 Corion nothingmuch: CPANPLUS breakage sympathy
01:55 nothingmuch ah
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02:30 nothingmuch mugwump: ping
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04:08 jabbot pugs - 2291 - test .() on junctions, not todo anymore
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04:24 bsb I have a possibly nonsensical junction question:
04:25 bsb Should "((1|2)^(3&4))" and "one(any(1,2),all(3,4))" produce junctions with matching structures?
04:25 bsb They don't currently
04:26 bsb Seems to be b/c the & operator trumps ^ and | but the function version does the params before the function
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06:42 autrijus bsb: no, that's a valid question
06:42 autrijus and I fixed it
06:42 autrijus would you please write a test?
06:43 Aankhen`` autrijus++
06:44 bsb nice one.  I've been testing junctions with .perl strings but that kind of assumes a canonical representation.  Is there a better way?
06:45 autrijus not sure there is.
06:46 Aankhen`` Does Pugs have support for P6 pattern matching yet?
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06:47 autrijus Aankhen``: no, see roadmap in PA01
06:48 jabbot pugs - 2292 - * Junctive ^ should join junctions inste
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06:49 Aankhen`` PA?
06:51 autrijus pugs apocryphon
06:51 Aankhen`` Ahh, okay.
06:55 autrijus lunch &
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07:08 gaal autrijus, is interactive mode gone? it doesn't start up on msys.
07:09 Aankhen`` Is there an easy way to see diffs in the Web interface?
07:10 Aankhen`` I'm looking at the log, and when I go to individual changes, I can only see the version checked in, without any diffs.
07:11 gaal do you want two arbitrary versions, or a certain version against its immediate predecessor?
07:11 Aankhen`` The latter.
07:12 gaal then go to e.g. http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Proje​ct/Source/index.html/pugs/log/VICTUALS and follow any of the "diff with previous" links.
07:12 Aankhen`` Hrm... I just followed the Recent Commits link from pugscode.org.
07:12 Aankhen`` Anyway.
07:12 Aankhen`` Thanks. :-)
07:13 gaal ????
07:13 gaal uh
07:13 gaal "sure"
07:13 Aankhen`` OK, see, I'm at http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Pro​ject/Source/index.html/pugs/log/?Queu​e=1&amp;limit=500&amp;submit=Show%21
07:13 Aankhen`` Er.
07:13 Aankhen`` One sec.
07:13 Aankhen`` http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/P​roject/Source/index.html/pugs/log/
07:13 Aankhen`` That might be better.
07:14 gaal my keyboad switches languages occasionally. amusingly, i just typed "sure" and it came out "dork" :)
07:15 gaal well, okay, click on he "revision" link
07:15 Aankhen`` Ahh.
07:15 Aankhen`` I have to go to the individual file's history page.
07:15 gaal yes
07:16 gaal if you prefer, you can do this from the command line: svn diff -r2001:2000
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07:16 Aankhen`` Nah, I'm gonna stick with the Web interface.
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07:40 gaal autrijus: ping
07:40 Corion r2290 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - 8 hours after the release and still all tests work/are todo ... Amazing :))
07:41 gaal Corion: can you try something? do "pugs" w/o any params and see if it starts the interactive interpreter?
07:41 gaal it's broken on msys; works on linux.
07:42 gaal i don't know where to start debugging this, since there aren't any nice tools like strace here. :(
07:43 Corion worksforme
07:43 gaal darn, this is msys specific then.
07:43 Corion Maybe the isTerm() call fails?
07:44 Corion (but why should it fail now when it worked earlier)
07:44 gaal how would i tell?
07:44 gaal i'm not sure i ever worked in interactive mode on msys :)
07:44 Corion gaal: Write a small Haskell program that does what the shell/interactive code does
07:44 gaal right.
07:45 Corion ... I think if you search for "term" in Main.hs or Run.hs , you'll find the startup for the interactive loop
07:45 gaal i'm on it.
07:45 Corion Yay!
07:45 Corion I'm away again!
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07:47 gaal oh, i see what you meant by isTerminal, no that's not wha'ts happening because sending an EOF doesn't help.
07:49 gaal oh! it *is* what's happening, but then it gets stuck. fishy.
07:52 gaal ok, hIsTerminalDevice is lying. And it's not that stdin is being closed, because echo 'say "hi"' | ./pugs.exe works.
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08:48 jabbot pugs - 2293 - Test complex junctions are equivalent
08:48 jabbot pugs - 2294 - plan number fixed
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09:47 nothingmuch morning
09:53 elmex morning
09:54 gaal nm, hi.
09:54 gaal let's try the patch thing now?
09:54 Juerd t apache why do you keep crashing stop
09:56 nothingmuch sure
09:56 nothingmuch i thought you sent it yday
09:57 * nothingmuch is starting his first real web development project
09:57 nothingmuch anyone who wants to help is welcome
09:57 gaal no, once i'd recorded a patch darcs wouldn't let me get a diff against your version. of course there's a way to do that but it wasn't worth losing sleep for a couple of trivial methods.
09:58 gaal ^figuring it out for etc.
09:58 nothingmuch darcs diff -p 'atch na'
09:58 nothingmuch will match things like 'patch name' or 'match nautilus'
09:58 nothingmuch and display a diff for that patch
09:58 nothingmuch but don't do that
09:58 gaal 'atch na'? why, that makes perfect sense! how didn't i think of that :)
09:58 nothingmuch 'darcs send'
09:58 nothingmuch that's just a regex ;-)
09:59 gaal but, you know, send wants to send to p6-c.
09:59 nothingmuch so type in my address
09:59 nothingmuch it's because i put p6c in there
09:59 nothingmuch so that everyone can review patches, not just me
10:00 * nothingmuch doesn't really see it as explicitly his
10:00 nothingmuch darcs send --to=nothingmuch@woobling.org
10:00 gaal nothinmuch, help me out please. i'm tired of learning YA scm
10:00 gaal ah, at last :)
10:00 gaal couldn't you have said that last night?
10:01 nothingmuch didn't i?
10:01 gaal no!
10:01 nothingmuch oops
10:01 nothingmuch nothingmuch--
10:01 nothingmuch i thought it asked you interactively
10:02 gaal sent. as you can see, it's mighty trivial. don't forget to mod the template
10:02 nothingmuch i did =)
10:04 gaal darcs-- # why doesn't it send mail like a regular human bein^W^Wprocess and use mutt?
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10:07 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "HTMLMatrix inline css support" (26 lines, 709B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9611
10:07 gaal next time i'll pick up the phone and sing bits at you :)
10:07 nothingmuch darcs it doesn't know you like mutt
10:07 nothingmuch you can set it's sendmail though
10:08 gaal i tried, you know.
10:08 nothingmuch what's so bad about sendmail?
10:08 gaal maybe i like keeping a copy of outgoing mail?
10:08 nothingmuch ah
10:08 nothingmuch =P
10:09 nothingmuch the patch is out there
10:09 nothingmuch i think expecting it to guess that you prefer mutt is a little too much
10:09 gaal you'd think i can set a mailer as an option to the command that, you know, sends mail. but no!
10:09 nothingmuch yes you can
10:10 gaal darcs send --help | grep send # nope
10:10 gaal darcs send --help | grep command # nope
10:10 nothingmuch oh my, you're right
10:10 * nothingmuch files a bug
10:11 nothingmuch want to be the bug owner?
10:12 nothingmuch oh, i see what i remember
10:12 gaal none(<cvs svn p4 cc arch darcs>).pick
10:12 nothingmuch you can ask it to darcs send into a file
10:12 nothingmuch that is: create a message
10:12 nothingmuch and then just put that in your mail client
10:12 gaal that's reasonable enough.
10:12 nothingmuch i knew i remembered something
10:12 gaal ah, it's even documented. -o.
10:13 nothingmuch darcs send -o file
10:13 nothingmuch ah, yes
10:13 gaal well, mayve svn doesn't annoy me that much, of the bunch :)
10:13 gaal i should take a break, this hostile mood isn't good for anything
10:13 nothingmuch drink some tea ;-)
10:13 gaal good idea!
10:14 gaal also, i made soup and i should have another bowl.
10:14 nothingmuch =)
10:19 gaal the TAP model, btw: a testgroup can have diags of itself
10:19 gaal not explicitly specced the the TAP, but possible if you start a test with diag()
10:20 gaal a test file, that is
10:20 gaal group, in your terminology.
10:21 gaal actrually, that's a shortcoming of the TAP, because you can't unhackily specify "intent" style messages.
10:22 gaal "about to do $DANGEROUS_OPERATION, i hope i don't crash"
10:22 gaal of course that's what you have a plan for, but still this can make debugging quicker.
10:23 gaal actually, we can fix that simply by emitting a test description before running the test, which should be possible if the test is a thunk.
10:25 gaal but that means you need to change the functions to things like ok(Code $test, ?$desc) { say $desc; proclaim .... if $test.() }
10:26 gaal and call it liek ok({ 1 + 1 = 2 }, "arithmetic");   # (bad example since the compiler optimizes this)
10:26 gaal conceptually this is cleaner anyway. every test is a thunk.
10:27 gaal with metadata associated to it. the metadata should not be vulnerable to the whims of the test.
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10:38 nothingmuch gaal: i think the protocol should allow for whatever
10:39 nothingmuch and that diag should be available for groups
10:39 nothingmuch hmm
10:39 nothingmuch interesting
10:40 nothingmuch sort of like lives_ok
10:40 nothingmuch btw, did you send the patch?
10:40 nothingmuch i didn't get anything yet
10:40 nothingmuch also, try muttng
10:42 gaal poll
10:42 gaal actually i keep forgetting, give it another minute, i'm calculating hashcash.
10:43 nothingmuch hashcash? i don't need no hashcash from you
10:43 nothingmuch autowhitelisting should be enough
10:43 nothingmuch although gaal++ for using
10:43 * nothingmuch really ought to start too
10:43 gaal everybody gets hashhash from me.
10:43 gaal it's real easy
10:44 nothingmuch the camram scheme for hashcash is purdy though
10:44 nothingmuch pay once
10:45 gaal http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/150447.html
10:45 gaal not familiar with camram
10:51 gaal and the interesting pages on their site are down. got a spare pdf?
10:54 chady has joined #perl6
10:55 nothingmuch nope, sorry
10:55 nothingmuch gaal->isa("Pirate"); # no documentation for patch
10:56 gaal no tests, either
10:56 gaal but i'm a p6 pirate, so it's .isa
10:56 nothingmuch care to send me hashcash-sendmail? it's not in gentoo's package
10:56 gaal sure, one sec.
10:58 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/lj/hashcash-sendmail
11:02 nothingmuch goody
11:06 boogie_ has left
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11:12 Aankhen`` The class for strings is Str, right?
11:13 gaal y
11:14 Aankhen`` So could you add this: method Str::foo ($self is rw) { $self ~~ s:p5:/foo/bar/; }
11:15 gaal i don't know if you can add methods to the builtin types in perl. in java, fwiw, String is final.
11:16 Aankhen`` Hrm.
11:16 gaal that doesn't mean "no" :) it means i don't know.
11:16 Aankhen`` Heh.
11:16 Aankhen`` It would suck to not be able to add methods to the builtins.
11:16 nothingmuch gaal: for some reason (can't figure out) inline css looks differently
11:16 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
11:17 gaal you can always do multi sub (Str $self is rw)
11:17 gaal yes, i noticef that too, weird, innit
11:17 gaal wasn't sure it was really what i though it was :)
11:17 nothingmuch body { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Tahoma; <-- no effect?
11:17 nothingmuch kungfuftr: ping
11:18 Aankhen`` Ah, I was planning to use it to be able to say: $foo = $bar.foo();
11:18 gaal nm, firefox?
11:18 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: The comments are messed up there...
11:18 nothingmuch safari
11:18 Aankhen`` <style type="text/css">
11:18 Aankhen`` /* <!-- */
11:18 Aankhen`` ...
11:18 nothingmuch oh
11:18 Aankhen`` /* --> */
11:18 nothingmuch gaal: naughty
11:18 Aankhen`` </style>
11:19 gaal what?
11:19 nothingmuch your patch ;-)
11:19 * gaal doesn't see the problem with that - perhaps i'm blind?
11:20 nothingmuch Aankhen``++
11:20 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
11:20 nothingmuch reload
11:20 Aankhen`` ^_^
11:21 gaal huh? how does that work?
11:21 gaal the point of the <!-- is to comment out the css from non supporting browsers
11:21 Aankhen`` Yes.
11:21 gaal but if they don't support css, they'll crap out on /* */
11:21 Aankhen`` However, he had this: <style type="text/css"><-- ... --></style>
11:22 gaal what's wrong with that? i was under the impression that's how this was done?
11:22 Aankhen`` It was missing a !, heh.
11:22 gaal aaaahh!
11:22 Aankhen`` Actually, I made a mistake too: you don't need to put CSS comments around the HTML comments.
11:22 gaal heh
11:22 Aankhen`` I've gotten used to typing <style type="text/css">/* <![CDATA[ */ ... /* ]]> */</style>
11:22 gaal Aankhen``++
11:24 nothingmuch gaal: darcs pull
11:24 chady has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
11:25 nothingmuch don't darcs pull, i'm going to amend record
11:25 nothingmuch oh crap
11:25 nothingmuch darcs unpull if you did
11:25 nothingmuch that was the problem
11:25 gaal more in the blind department, what does this mean?
11:25 gaal -Test::Tap::Model::Subtest::Visual - A subtest with additional display oriented
11:25 gaal +Test::TAP::Model::Subtest::Visual - A subtest with additional display oriented
11:26 gaal Pull cancelled.
11:26 nothingmuch Tap -> TAP
11:26 nothingmuch it confused search.cpan
11:26 gaal aah, right
11:26 gaal i think i need a break again, i'm not seeing all those little things :)
11:26 nothingmuch i didn't see it for about a week
11:27 nothingmuch gaal: how expensive is 24 bits of collision?
11:27 gaal you can test and see
11:27 gaal -b i think
11:28 gaal you should tune it to your hw
11:28 gaal i think i moved to 26 bits after a while
11:30 gaal &
11:30 nothingmuch that's a long time
11:30 nothingmuch ~10 seconds
11:31 gaal aim for 30 secs i think
11:31 nothingmuch why so long?
11:31 nothingmuch you're right, in underestimated
11:31 gaal email can take some latency usually
11:31 nothingmuch true, but are the cpu cycles really worth it?
11:31 gaal your call...
11:32 gaal i like to know someone spent 30 cpu seconds before bothering me :)
11:32 nothingmuch avg of 25 bits seems good enough for me
11:32 gaal & # for real
11:32 nothingmuch ciao
11:33 nothingmuch now you can all darcs pull
11:36 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: Are those supposed to be question marks in the table?
11:36 nothingmuch inside the thingies?
11:36 nothingmuch that's UTF-8's &nbsp;
11:36 Aankhen`` Inside the cells, yeah.
11:36 nothingmuch (in theory)
11:37 Aankhen`` Looks like a character from another encoding to me, since the page encoding is showing up as UTF-8.
11:37 nothingmuch hmm
11:38 nothingmuch it worked for me all along
11:38 nothingmuch but it looked like trouble
11:38 nothingmuch i'll check it out
11:38 Aankhen`` Ah, just put the entity instead of the decoded character.
11:38 nothingmuch easier said than done
11:39 Aankhen`` Why?
11:39 nothingmuch petal attrocity i forgot about
11:39 Aankhen`` It won't let you spit out entities as-is?
11:39 nothingmuch you can do it, but it's sort of clumsy
11:40 Aankhen`` How about &amp;nbsp; in that case?
11:40 nothingmuch but since it's UTF8 it doesn't reencode
11:40 nothingmuch then you get &amp;nbsp;
11:40 nothingmuch the point is that it decodes the entities from the template
11:40 Aankhen`` Ah.
11:40 nothingmuch but this somehow broke at some point
11:40 Aankhen`` That sucks.
11:40 nothingmuch i just noticed xmllint complains about this too
11:41 nothingmuch because it used to be ok
11:42 Aankhen`` What is Petal?  Templating system?
11:42 nothingmuch yup
11:42 Aankhen`` (or petal, as the case may be)
11:42 Aankhen`` What language?
11:42 nothingmuch perl ;-)
11:43 Aankhen`` What a coincidence. =)
11:43 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/dist/Petal
11:45 Aankhen`` Ohh.
11:45 Aankhen`` I've read about TAL.
11:46 Aankhen`` The concept sounded good.
11:51 nothingmuch blammo
11:51 nothingmuch it is pretty nice
11:51 nothingmuch but i think the implementation is not quite good enough
11:51 nothingmuch nevertheless I still use it because it's the easiest template for me to maintain
11:51 nothingmuch i hfixed the problem
11:51 Aankhen`` Yey!
11:52 nothingmuch reload http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
11:53 Aankhen`` Woo!
11:53 Aankhen`` nothingmuch++
11:53 nothingmuch now i should release, i think
11:53 nothingmuch example.html:107: parser error : Entity 'nbsp' not defined
11:53 nothingmuch ">&nbsp;</a>
11:53 nothingmuch beh
11:53 nothingmuch xmllint--
11:54 nothingmuch lets see if it passes the validator
11:54 Aankhen`` Heh.
11:54 Aankhen`` You could s/&nbsp;/&#160;/
11:54 Aankhen`` It will.
11:54 nothingmuch hmm, it can't eat file:// URLs
11:55 Aankhen`` (I'm assuming xmllint actually does process it as XML :-)
11:55 nothingmuch it passes htmltidy, so i'm happy enough
11:55 nothingmuch it does
11:55 Aankhen`` So then it's fine.
11:55 nothingmuch i use xmllint to compress things usually
11:55 nothingmuch xmllint --noblanks -
11:55 Aankhen`` &nbsp; isn't an XML entity, and I'm guessing xmllint doesn't read the DTD.
11:56 nothingmuch exactly
11:56 Aankhen`` This page is not Valid XHTML 1.0 Strict!
11:56 Aankhen`` Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser.
11:56 Aankhen``   1.
11:56 Aankhen``      Line 558, column 9: document type does not allow element "tfoot" here
11:56 Aankhen``      <tfoot>
11:56 Aankhen`` Surprising as it may seem, you need to put your tfoot right after your thead.
11:56 nothingmuch odd, htmltidy eats that OK
11:56 nothingmuch all it complains about is missing table summaries
11:56 * nothingmuch will fix
11:57 nothingmuch okay, try again
11:58 Aankhen`` This Page Is Valid XHTML 1.0 Strict!
11:58 nothingmuch huraah
11:58 * Aankhen`` ^5s nothingmuch!
11:59 nothingmuch okay
11:59 nothingmuch both fixes on public repo
11:59 nothingmuch got anything you could play with before I make a release?
11:59 Aankhen`` ?
12:02 nothingmuch could you sort of fool around with it
12:02 Aankhen`` Ah.
12:02 nothingmuch see if you have anything else to add?
12:02 Aankhen`` One sec.
12:03 Aankhen`` You could put in summary="91 test cases: 91 ok, 0 failed, 0 todo, 1 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded (100.00% OK)"
12:03 nothingmuch i'll make that into a method methinks
12:03 nothingmuch then i'll put summary in the summarry and in the tfoot cell
12:03 Aankhen`` Also, chomp the title attributes.
12:03 Aankhen`` <a href="#" title="ok 1 - Checking MANIFEST integrity
12:03 Aankhen`` ">&#160;</a>
12:04 nothingmuch i don't want to put a summary in each table though
12:04 nothingmuch this file grows very fast
12:04 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
12:04 Aankhen`` Up to you.
12:04 Aankhen`` It's just one less thing for htmltidy to complain about, really.
12:05 Aankhen`` Are there supposed to be line breaks in the footer?
12:05 Aankhen`` Or are those just for formatting?
12:05 nothingmuch test_cases/50 * length(summary="subests x..x+n"');
12:05 nothingmuch actually that's not so bad
12:06 nothingmuch that's just what the template does
12:06 nothingmuch err, how the template is written
12:07 Aankhen`` Ah.
12:07 Aankhen`` <td style="background-color: #00ff00" class="x sum">100.00%</td> # you seem to have a lot of inline CSS there which is inflating the size; how about .sum { background-color: #00ff00; } instead?
12:08 nothingmuch because the color is calculated that means about 100 css classes
12:08 nothingmuch for example 75% is slightly orange
12:08 nothingmuch 60% is redder
12:08 Aankhen`` You have a different colour for each grade?
12:08 nothingmuch yup
12:08 Aankhen`` I see.
12:09 Aankhen`` You can't only generate the classes which are used?
12:09 nothingmuch much more complicated control flow
12:09 Aankhen`` Ah, okay.
12:09 nothingmuch it's 25*test files more bytes
12:09 Aankhen`` No matter, it's not such a big deal.
12:10 Aankhen`` You seem to have a lot of <table width="100%"> -- is there a reason why you can't put that in the CSS?
12:11 * nothingmuch didn't know that
12:11 nothingmuch i forget where i lifted the HTML
12:11 Aankhen`` Hrm.
12:11 Aankhen`` Actually.
12:11 Aankhen`` I'm not sure it would work.
12:11 Aankhen`` You could try it.
12:12 nothingmuch want to bundle up HTML fixes into a patch on the template?
12:12 nothingmuch i'm really lousy at that stuff
12:12 nothingmuch i don't notice when things go bad
12:12 nothingmuch and i can't fix them when i finally do
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12:14 nothingmuch hola Aankh|Clone
12:14 Aankh|Clone Re.
12:14 Aankh|Clone [17:41:59] <nothingmuch> want to bundle up HTML fixes into a patch on the template?
12:14 Aankh|Clone [17:42:13] <Aankhen``> On the HTML file itself?
12:14 Aankh|Clone [17:43:08] * Disconnected
12:14 Aankh|Clone [17:43:17] * Attempting to rejoin channel #perl6
12:14 nothingmuch lib/Test/TAP/HTMLMatrix/template.html
12:15 Aankh|Clone Alright.
12:15 Aankh|Clone Might take some time though.
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12:16 nothingmuch goody
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12:17 Aankh|Clone Should I include the ones I was on about earlier?
12:18 nothingmuch chomp ${ $_ }->{line} and redo for $f->cases;
12:18 nothingmuch you can darcs pull from http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/
12:18 nothingmuch Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix
12:18 nothingmuch (just a plain source tree, btw)
12:18 nothingmuch and see what's missing
12:18 nothingmuch i did the tfoot thing last
12:18 Aankh|Clone I don't have darcs.
12:18 nothingmuch now i'm working on chomping the summary
12:18 nothingmuch okay, just plain downloaad
12:19 Aankh|Clone Alright.
12:21 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
12:30 nothingmuch okay, table summaries are in place
12:31 wolverian has joined #perl6
12:32 nothingmuch i have to work on something else now
12:33 nothingmuch update your copy of the template
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13:31 Aankh|Clone «nothingmuch»: Ping.
13:31 nothingmuch pong
13:31 nothingmuch btw, if you know HTML, want to help out with the website i'm working on?
13:31 Aankh|Clone Er, one sec.
13:31 castaway_ Plong.
13:31 nothingmuch i have a friend, she's putting together a manic depression/bipolar website
13:31 castaway_ is now known as castaway
13:31 nothingmuch to help people start self help groups
13:31 Aankh|Clone Sure, I'd love to help.
13:31 nothingmuch so it's a good cause
13:32 Aankh|Clone Hrm.
13:32 nothingmuch i'm having a bit of trouble with the right-to-left layout
13:32 Aankh|Clone I seem to have lost my Website.
13:32 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
13:32 nothingmuch oi
13:37 Aankhen`` http://aankhen.vengefuldeath.com/example.html
13:37 Aankhen`` Comments?
13:38 Limbic_Region Corion about?
13:38 Juerd Some messages on mailinglists are so useless.
13:38 Limbic_Region anyone know why splice.t says FAILED, but it is all green and says 100% passed??? http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
13:38 Juerd nothingmuch: self help in what area?
13:39 Juerd                       http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html
13:39 Juerd argh
13:39 nothingmuch Juerd: groups of around 8-12 people with one of the diseases
13:39 Juerd WHY THE HELL DOES DRAGGING COPY AND PASTE
13:39 nothingmuch that organize themselves
13:39 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: http://aankhen.vengefuldeath.com/example.html
13:39 nothingmuch Aankhen``: i can't really see the diff
13:39 nothingmuch could you explain?
13:39 Juerd THAT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WITHIN THE SAME TERMINAL WINDOW
13:39 Aankhen`` Mostly under the hood.
13:39 Aankhen`` Firstly, I removed all the commented out CSS.
13:39 nothingmuch i mean from reading the source ;-)
13:39 nothingmuch okay
13:39 Aankhen`` Secondly, I compressed it to one line per selector.
13:40 Aankhen`` Thirdly, I fiddled around with the links a bit.
13:40 nothingmuch ack!
13:40 nothingmuch i exploded it to N lines per selector ;-)
13:40 Aankhen`` Heh.
13:40 nothingmuch i have trouble reading things which are not blockish when I maintain things
13:40 Aankhen`` Lastly, I tweaked the padding a bit on the cells.
13:41 nothingmuch ah, i see, so the whole block is a link
13:41 nothingmuch that's good
13:41 nothingmuch what did you do to the links?
13:41 Aankhen`` Basically, added padding, and pretty hover effects. :-P
13:41 Juerd nothingmuch: What kind of diseases? And only diseases, not disorders?
13:41 Aankhen`` Making them blocks is something I wanted to do, too...
13:41 nothingmuch oi vey
13:41 nothingmuch Juerd: manic depression and bipolar disorder
13:42 nothingmuch that cyan thing is crazy
13:42 Juerd What is 'manic' depression?
13:42 nothingmuch you go up, you go down
13:42 nothingmuch from being so happy that you cry
13:42 nothingmuch to being totally depressed
13:42 nothingmuch in around 3 minutes
13:42 nothingmuch sort of like bipolar
13:42 nothingmuch i forget the nuances
13:42 Limbic_Region Juerd - is that a serious question?
13:43 nothingmuch it's at the chemistry level
13:43 Odin- Bipolar Disorder
13:43 Odin- :p
13:43 Juerd Limbic_Region: Yes...
13:43 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: You no like pretty links? :-P
13:43 Juerd nothingmuch: Googling for bipolar disorder tells me that it's the same thing as manic depression
13:43 Odin- "manic-depressive" *is* bipolar disorder.
13:43 nothingmuch Odin-: caps are good when they tab complete
13:43 nothingmuch Aankhen``: i like traditional links best =)
13:43 Limbic_Region for all intents and purposes they are the same thing
13:43 Aankhen`` Pah.
13:44 nothingmuch Odin-: i think not
13:44 Juerd Limbic_Region: I'm (too) familiar with depression, but I didn't know what manic meant.
13:44 Odin- nothingmuch: Yes, it is. :)
13:44 nothingmuch Odin-: my friends diagnosis changed from one to the other, i think
13:44 Odin- nothingmuch: Yes. That's because the terminology changed.
13:44 Odin- http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/​disorders/dsm4TRclassification.htm
13:44 Juerd Hurrah for dsmiv classifications.
13:44 Juerd (blurgh)
13:44 Odin- Meh. They're standard. ;)
13:45 nothingmuch well, whatever
13:45 Odin- It's like ADD/ADHD.
13:45 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manic_Depression <-- yields bipolar disorder
13:45 Juerd I'm ambivalent about dsmiv (and other standards like this), Odin-
13:45 nothingmuch no info about wy it was renamed
13:45 Odin- It's the same thing.
13:45 * nothingmuch was curious
13:45 Limbic_Region Odin - there is a clinical distinction between the two
13:45 Limbic_Region they aren't the same thing
13:45 Limbic_Region you can have ADD without the hyperactive part
13:45 Odin- Juerd: Go figure. So am I. They're standard, nevertheless, and that's what you'll be getting from the shrinks.
13:45 Odin- Limbic_Region: Yes. But it's still the same thing.
13:45 Juerd Odin-: It's good to have a name for something, but at the same time it's very dangerous to put people with slightly different disorders in the same groups...
13:46 * Limbic_Region isn't sure what Odin- is basing his assertion on, but still believes them to be two distinct things
13:47 Odin- Limbic_Region: I'm basing it on what I've read in the past ten years on a disorder I've been diagnosed with. :>
13:47 Odin- So, seriously, you're not likely to convince me otherwise.
13:48 Odin- :)
13:48 Odin- Juerd: Tell you what. I don't really disagree.
13:48 jabbot pugs - 2295 - Typo fixes.
13:48 Odin- Juerd: But it's still useful. You just have to watch out for the mines.
13:48 Odin- Sort of like IQ.
13:48 Limbic_Region I'm not trying to convince you otherwise
13:48 Juerd Odin-: It's useful, indeed. And indeed, I think the same things about IQs.
13:49 Juerd Though IQs are much less useful because everyone uses a different standard deviation, and it's no longer around a 100 middle point.
13:49 Juerd When someone asks me my IQ, I just say it's 2+1/3 SD, and if they don't understand it, I just assume they're less intelligent ;)
13:51 Odin- Actually, IQs are most useful not for saying how you stand compared to others, but what strengths and weaknesses you have in the fields measured. :>
13:52 Limbic_Region not knowing much about the subect, aren't IQ tests supposed to give near same results regardless of age/studying and yet it has been repeatedly shown that this isn't the case?
13:52 Odin- Limbic_Region: And, yes. It's possible not to have the 'H' part. But that's considered to be a specific manifestation of ADHD, not a seperate disorder.
13:52 Odin- Limbic_Region: Uh. No, they aren't.
13:52 Odin- And thus no wonder it isn't the case.
13:52 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: Reload the page.
13:52 Juerd Hm, according to dsmiv I am depressed.
13:52 Limbic_Region Odin- ok, we are saying the same thing but with a difference on a focus
13:53 Juerd Funny how I already knew that even without the classification specs :)
13:53 Limbic_Region WRT ADD/ADHD
13:53 Odin- Juerd: According to DSM IV I have a whole host of disorders.
13:53 nothingmuch why are the blocky? so that you can click on the whole TD?
13:53 Odin- Which, frankly, just might be the case. :)
13:53 Odin- Limbic_Region: Maybe. :)
13:53 Aankhen`` Yeah.
13:53 Aankhen`` Fitt's Law. :-D
13:54 Juerd Odin-: Heh.
13:54 Juerd Odin-: I have looked at only two, that I suspected before seeing the criteria. (Aspergers and now depression)
13:54 Odin- Limbic_Region: ADHD is a headache to deal with. It's chaotic ... in both that it makes people chaotic, and it manifests in very chaotic ways.
13:54 nothingmuch so do you want to CI it? you can learn darcs in about 2 minutes
13:54 Aankhen`` CI?
13:54 Limbic_Region Odin- well, let me put it this way - I agree with what  http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/​disorders/dsm4TRclassification.htm had to say on the matter - when classifying the disorder you can pick and choose the options that fit the individual A, B, A&B
13:54 Aankhen`` Commit?
13:54 nothingmuch check in
13:54 nothingmuch yup
13:54 Juerd I should read more of them, just to find out what disorders I have. Maybe they'll some day be worth cash!)
13:54 Aankhen`` Ahh.
13:54 Aankhen`` Sure.
13:55 Aankhen`` Where do I get darcs for Win32?
13:55 Odin- Limbic_Region: Okay. Yes. That's what I was referring to. :)
13:55 nothingmuch http://darcs.net <-- links to binaries
13:55 Aankhen`` OK.
13:55 Limbic_Region Odin- also speaking from personal experience - I believe that "what ADHD is or is like" is a highly subjective experience
13:56 Odin- Limbic_Region: Oh, yes. But there seems to be a root cause for many, if not most...
13:56 alfiejohn has joined #perl6
13:57 Aankhen`` Hrm.
13:57 Aankhen`` I have to go for now.
13:57 * Limbic_Region realizes the time and wanders off to wake Jean up
13:57 Aankhen`` «nothingmuch»: I'll be back in a couple of hours. Can you wait till then?
13:57 * Odin- would be 'combined type'
13:57 nothingmuch Aankhen``: sure
13:57 nothingmuch actually it's better for me
13:57 Aankhen`` Alrighty then
13:57 Aankhen`` .
13:57 Aankhen`` See you later.
13:57 nothingmuch ciao, and thanks!
14:00 stevan nothingmuch: ping
14:00 nothingmuch pong
14:14 castaway stevan..
14:14 * castaway pings stevan.
14:22 stevan castaway
14:23 stevan pong
14:23 castaway hey
14:23 castaway Could you copy us OS 9 when you get a chance, please?
14:24 castaway (damn mac doesnt want to play)
14:24 stevan castaway: yes I will do that sometime today
14:24 castaway Ta!
14:24 stevan (not on the right computer right now
14:24 stevan should I stop the rsync
14:24 theorbtwo Oh?
14:24 theorbtwo The rsync is still running?
14:24 castaway Isnt it finished?
14:24 stevan LOL
14:24 stevan 20%
14:25 theorbtwo That's... odd.
14:25 castaway for the 2nd one ?
14:25 stevan it was doing early 90s modem speeds :)
14:32 theorbtwo That suggests that the file that was there and the file being transfered weren't more or less the same.
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15:24 * nothingmuch is so pathetic
15:25 castaway whatup, nm ?
15:25 nothingmuch lost all my graphic apps abilities
15:26 booyaa has joined #perl6
15:26 castaway eh?
15:27 * castaway ruffles nothingmuch
15:27 * nothingmuch purrs
15:28 * castaway wonders what graphic apps abilities are
15:29 nothingmuch the ability to grok how stuff will look pretty
15:29 nothingmuch and actually do it
15:29 castaway ohh..
15:29 nothingmuch and also do a bit of simple 2-d math
15:29 * castaway never had any of those ;)
15:29 nothingmuch i used to do collages for fun
15:29 nothingmuch big PSDs with some kind of message
15:29 castaway PSD?
15:29 nothingmuch photoshop files
15:30 castaway ah
15:33 Corion_ r2295 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - still no new failures ... :)
15:33 nothingmuch autrijus is at a family reunion or something
15:34 Corion_ Limbic_Region / Juerd: There is one more test (in my local copy of splice.t) than planned, so all tests are successes, but due to the plan it fails.
15:35 castaway cos no new code has been done? ;)
15:35 Corion_ castaway: :))
15:35 castaway I got 3 fails from 4506
15:36 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
15:38 Corion_ castaway: Where? I get 0 fails ...
15:38 jabbot pugs - 2296 - QoTW regular #24 works!
15:38 jabbot pugs - 2297 - Added test for explicit scalar context a
15:38 castaway Failed Test            Stat Wstat Total Fail  Failed  List of Failed
15:38 castaway ----------------------------------------​---------------------------------------
15:38 castaway t/operators/arith.t                 177    1   0.56%  158
15:38 castaway t/operators/filetest.t               34    2   5.88%  11-12
15:39 castaway r2292
15:39 Corion_ Oh. The two filetest tests are skipped on win32
15:39 Corion has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:39 Corion_ is now known as Corion
15:39 Limbic_Region Corion - did you see my comment from earlier?
15:40 Corion Limbic_Region: I even answered to it
15:40 Corion (it was a plan failure)
15:40 * Limbic_Region must have already been off playing with FF
15:40 Corion More tests run than planned results in an overall failure even though all tests succeed
15:41 Corion Limbic_Region: I answered it about 5 minutes ago :)
15:42 * Limbic_Region thinks he is seeing a significant speed improvement in page rendering with FF 1.0.3
15:42 Limbic_Region versus 1.0-Pre that is
15:43 Corion Grrr. Skipping tests because of "sporadic failures" is stupid/wrong. If something is "sporadic" in t/operators/filetest.t, you can be pretty sure it's operating system dependent. Like, "-s" is not implemented for Win32 yet.
15:44 Corion Ah - no, it's merely the skip reason that is stupid/nondescript.
15:46 nothingmuch w3 are hypocrites
15:46 nothingmuch so much for usability: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG12/
15:46 nothingmuch where on that page is the spec itself, anyone?
15:46 Steve_p has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:47 theorbtwo If you actually read it, you'd realize that it doesn't exist yet; it's a working document.
15:47 booyaa has quit IRC ("leaving")
15:48 Steve_p has joined #perl6
15:48 theorbtwo Try the "previous version" link, OTOH.
15:48 nothingmuch beh
15:49 nothingmuch i've read the first 4 paragraphs and still haven't found the 'this is not written
15:49 nothingmuch bit
15:49 nothingmuch but thanks
15:52 elmex has quit IRC ("duschen")
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16:18 jabbot pugs - 2298 - Win32 -s and -z now work, thanks to Lemm
16:26 * Aankhen`` pokes nothingmuch.
16:26 * nothingmuch has a spasm
16:26 Aankhen`` Tsk, tsk.
16:26 Aankhen`` So touchy.
16:26 Aankhen`` Anyway.
16:26 * nothingmuch bangs head on table, swallows tounge, starts foaming
16:26 Aankhen`` What do I do with this darcs thingie?
16:26 nothingmuch 'darcs get repo_url'
16:26 nothingmuch repo_url in this case is: http://nothingmuch.wooblin​g.org/Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix
16:26 Aankhen`` And the URL would be?
16:26 Aankhen`` OK.
16:27 nothingmuch then you edit the files
16:27 nothingmuch svn st translates to 'darcs w -ls', which is really 'darcs whatsnew --look-for-adds --summaryy'
16:27 saorge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:28 jabbot pugs - 2299 - Commented on the fact that Compat.hs now
16:28 nothingmuch and then you say 'darcs record' for whatever changes you want to keep
16:28 nothingmuch you name them
16:28 nothingmuch and then you darcs send
16:29 Aankhen`` Copying patch 7 of 44...
16:29 Corion Hmmm. Should hs-plugins Just work on Win32? I haven't tried it yet, but the documentation doesn't claim anything in either direction ...
16:29 Aankhen`` darcs failed:  Failed to download URL http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-H
16:29 Aankhen`` TMLMatrix/_darcs/patches/20050423234958-​e79bd-9900a4a65dd228be32bb75913f439f0a6a
16:29 Aankhen`` dd2d09.gz
16:29 Aankhen`` libcurl: HTTP error (404?)
16:29 nothingmuch ooh
16:29 Aankhen`` Tried again, it failed again on 7.
16:29 nothingmuch one sec, i'll look into it
16:30 Aankhen`` Alright.
16:30 nothingmuch try again
16:31 wilx` is now known as wilx
16:31 Aankhen`` Got 'em all.
16:32 Aankhen`` So, where's example.html? :-P
16:33 nothingmuch it's not there, you have to generate it ;-)
16:33 nothingmuch example.pl is the thing that makes it
16:33 chady has joined #perl6
16:33 Aankhen`` Darn.
16:33 Aankhen`` Right.
16:34 Aankhen`` I suppose I need to install the module first?
16:34 saorge_ has joined #perl6
16:36 Aankhen`` Darned prerequisites.
16:37 theorbtwo Corion, last I checked, dons (the primary author) mentioned something about / vs \ paths.
16:37 theorbtwo It's worth a try.
16:37 Corion theorbtwo: Yeah ... I'll guess I'll try :)
16:37 Corion ... but first I'll hunt down some cross platform issues
16:38 Corion Yah. r2299 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - -s and -z work now on Win32
16:45 xerox has joined #perl6
16:52 autrijus woot.
16:52 autrijus greetings, btw.
16:52 autrijus I'm about to check in a change.
16:52 saorge{zzzzzzzzz has joined #perl6
16:52 autrijus it makes mandel.p6 finish in 55 secs for one round in my machine
16:52 autrijus it took 250.
16:52 autrijus (before this change)
16:53 autrijus I'm smoking now to make sure I didn't break anything
16:53 obra ?!
16:53 theorbtwo Impressive.
16:53 obra what did you change?
16:53 autrijus obra: I changed the symbol table from using an association list (list of pairs)
16:53 autrijus into Data.Map
16:53 autrijus that's all
16:53 theorbtwo Ah.
16:53 obra hah
16:54 theorbtwo It's all about the hash, man.
16:54 autrijus right... except for multisubs
16:54 obra "mature optimization"
16:54 autrijus type Pad = Map Var [IORef VRef]
16:54 autrijus so I end up settling for this
16:55 autrijus not sure whether we still need to make optimized the default after this anymore
16:59 autrijus it's in as r2300. reverse.t broke
16:59 autrijus for some reason
16:59 autrijus otherwise looks good so far
17:00 chady has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
17:06 autrijus reverse.t repaired
17:07 Corion_ has joined #perl6
17:07 autrijus hey Corion_. I wonder if on Win32 pugs is also 5x faster for you now :)
17:08 Corion_ autrijus: Hmmm. I'm just running a smoke test - I should notice if it is 5x faster :)
17:08 autrijus Corion_: r230x?
17:08 jabbot pugs - 2300 - * New, much much faster implementation t
17:08 jabbot pugs - 2301 - * repair the "list" context hinter
17:08 Corion_ autrijus: What did you change?
17:08 Corion_ autrijus: Just did an svn up
17:08 Aankhen`` autrijus, I had a question which you might be able to answer...
17:08 Corion_ Will be 2301
17:08 autrijus good
17:08 autrijus Corion_: the Pad data structure is much improved
17:08 Aankhen`` [16:42:05] <Aankhen``> The class for strings is Str, right?
17:08 autrijus it's now a hash instead of a list.
17:08 Aankhen`` [16:42:42] <gaal> y
17:08 Aankhen`` [16:43:32] <Aankhen``> So could you add this: method Str::foo ($self is rw) { $self ~~ s:p5:/foo/bar/; }
17:09 Corion_ autrijus: Ah - so we have faster variable name/value lookups
17:09 Corion_ autrijus: Build is not broken :) Tests seem to work ;)
17:09 autrijus Aankhen``: I don't know... consult S12/A12
17:09 autrijus I know that
17:10 Aankhen`` Alright.
17:10 autrijus class Str { method foo {} }
17:10 autrijus works
17:10 Corion_ And it seems faster, yes. Too bad I'm too lazy to install time(1) here :)
17:10 autrijus as does
17:10 autrijus Corion_: you can run mandelbrot with two pugs.exe :)
17:10 autrijus also,
17:10 autrijus multi method foo (Str $self is rw:) { ... }
17:10 autrijus works
17:10 Aankhen`` So class Str { method foo {} } would add foo() to all strings?
17:11 Juerd Corion_: time is a bash builtin. bash(1).
17:11 Juerd ;)
17:11 autrijus Aankhen``: something like that.
17:11 Aankhen`` Cool.
17:11 Aankhen`` Thanks. :-)
17:11 Corion_ Juerd: Too bad I'm too lazy to install bash. But maybe I shouldn't be :))
17:11 autrijus Aankhen``: but I'm talking with p6l hat. in p6c terms it doesn't work right now... only the multi sub works
17:11 autrijus multi sub foo (Str $self is rw) { .. }
17:11 Aankhen`` Ah, okay.
17:12 Aankhen`` I have to say, it's fascinating to even just idle in this channel.
17:12 autrijus agreed :)
17:12 Juerd Aankhen``: Can you explain why?
17:13 Aankhen`` «Juerd»: Watching a programming language being implemented is a new experience for me. :-)
17:13 Juerd I see
17:18 elmex hm, how far are the networking capabilities of pugs? can i do something like select () and using non-blocking ?
17:18 autrijus elmex: see example/network
17:18 autrijus http-client.p6  http-server.p6
17:18 Corion has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:18 autrijus we are currently having a share-everything model (5005threads)
17:18 elmex well, that one bases on async {} didn't it?
17:18 elmex hmm
17:18 autrijus I think it is larry's wish to make it more like ithreads
17:18 autrijus and I may throw in STM as well.
17:18 autrijus atomically {}
17:19 elmex i've read that post... indeed
17:19 elmex i don't like threads anyway. i tend to use select () in all of my applications. it's simpler and you can do much with it until you hit some performance barrier...
17:20 elmex autrijus: will async { } be there in future too?
17:20 autrijus elmex: I'm pretty sure it will.
17:20 autrijus async is part of ithreads API.
17:20 elmex hm
17:20 elmex autrijus: what about coroutines?
17:20 autrijus elmex: you can roll coroutines yourself using a simple iterator interface.
17:20 autrijus i.e. lazy list
17:21 elmex oh, iterator interface? uh..
17:21 elmex (no idea)
17:21 elmex but it sounds good ;)
17:21 autrijus ;)
17:21 autrijus if all you want is lazy yield(), you have gather/take.
17:22 Corion_ It sure felt faster!
17:22 autrijus Corion_: glad to hear that!
17:22 Corion_ Hmmm. Supposedly it took 14 minutes. But I don't have any numbers to compare. D'oh :)
17:23 autrijus run mandelbrot? :)
17:23 autrijus (provided you have an old pugs.exe to compare against)
17:25 Corion_ autrijus: Ah. Hmmm - too late :)
17:26 Corion_ BTW, I'm moving out all the fixed tests in pugsbugs/ - where should subscripts_and_context.t go?
17:28 jabbot pugs - 2302 - Moved succeeding tests out of t/pugsbugs
17:30 ingy hola
17:30 * Aankhen`` pokes nothingmuch.
17:30 autrijus Corion_: improvise :)
17:30 Corion_ autrijus: Already doing that ;)
17:30 broquaint has joined #perl6
17:31 Corion_ Is => supposed to be a hash/pair constructor or is it still the P5 Fat Comma ?
17:31 broquaint Pair constructor.
17:31 autrijus it is always a pair constructor.
17:31 autrijus specifically, it creates a reference to a pair object.
17:31 broquaint Although it still stringifies the left handside.
17:33 Corion_ Ah. Hmmm. Still it should be mostly usable in the same situations as before, especially in a map block ... { $_ => uc $_ }
17:34 Corion_ I hate tests that only exist as comments and don't even have an empty skip() or fail() call... :)
17:34 autrijus map { $_ => uc $_; }
17:34 autrijus map { +($_ => uc $_) }
17:35 autrijus map { \($_ => uc $_) }
17:36 gaal the yaml harness now records how long the run took. should be a decent benchmark of pugs' speed, per r at least.
17:36 Corion_ %ret = map { $_ => uc $_ }, split "", $text # currently dies. Is that correct?
17:36 Corion_ gaal++
17:36 Juerd autrijus: It creates a pair object. That *implies* reference, on the outside.
17:37 Corion_ (it's no parsefail but a runtime error later) - I'll commit the changed/updated test again, as t/pugsbugs/map_function_return_values.t - I just wonder, the test name doesn't have much in common anymore with the cause :)
17:37 * nothingmuch gets poked
17:38 jabbot pugs - 2303 - include timing data in yaml harness run
17:38 jabbot pugs - 2304 - Moved one more test, turned one comment
17:39 autrijus Juerd: sure
17:39 autrijus Corion_: it's I think correct
17:39 autrijus it amounts to saying
17:39 Corion_ is now known as Corion
17:39 autrijus map %hash &func
17:39 autrijus er
17:39 autrijus map %hash, @list
17:39 autrijus which is undefined.
17:39 autrijus it should fail with a MMD error
17:40 autrijus but we'll get to that
17:40 Juerd autrijus: Shouldn't { } in Code context prefer sub interpretation, then?
17:40 Juerd Likewise, { } in Hash context, prefer hash interpretation.
17:41 autrijus Juerd: eh.
17:41 autrijus multi sub foo (Code $x) { ... }
17:41 autrijus multi sub foo (Hash $x) { ... }
17:41 autrijus foo { 4 => 5 }
17:41 obra make smoke now takes 5:27 for me
17:41 Juerd autrijus: Then both are possible and old heuristics apply.
17:41 autrijus obra: is that an improvement?
17:41 Juerd autrijus: But if only one is valid, it makes no sense to interpret it as the invalid thing, and then croak.
17:42 autrijus Juerd: problem being the interpretation thing is done at compile time
17:42 autrijus Juerd: but the MMD is not resolved until runtime, as you very well know
17:42 Juerd autrijus: That's not something I know :)
17:42 autrijus Juerd: so the best we can do is to mark that block as some kind of Code|Hash thing
17:42 autrijus Juerd: oh. ok. :)
17:42 Juerd And is map really a multi?
17:43 Juerd I had always assumed it was a normal sub
17:43 Juerd (And method)
17:43 autrijus anyway. :)
17:43 autrijus it's for @larry to decide :)
17:43 Juerd Also, is it spelled "multi sub"? I thought "multi".
17:44 autrijus it is spelled multi sub.
17:44 autrijus because you also get multi methods.
17:44 autrijus it may or may not be equivalent to the "is multi" trait.
17:44 * gaal pings nothingmuch
17:45 Juerd So we still have elsif crammed together into the extreme, but multi sub as two words. Confusing :)
17:47 Juerd SHOCKING NEWS
17:47 Juerd "Mac mini" and "Mac Mini" are both used.
17:47 Juerd The box sais "Mac mini"
17:47 Juerd says even
17:47 autrijus I'm shocked!
17:47 * autrijus elecrifies
17:47 autrijus electrifies, even
17:47 Corion Galvanize!
17:47 theorbtwo Is this confusingly similar to a mini cooper?
17:47 theorbtwo If not, why do I care?
17:48 theorbtwo For that matter, if so, why do I care?
17:48 Corion Ow. I introduced a failing test - should I make it :todo(1) ?
17:48 Corion Or do we accumulate failing tests again, and :todo them before release?
17:48 theorbtwo Corion, we're obviously out of preflight, since there was a release yesterday.
17:49 autrijus right.
17:49 Corion theorbtwo: Yes, but a 0 bugs build is easier to keep track of, resp. if you introduced new bugs or not
17:49 autrijus so make those tests fail.
17:49 autrijus new tests, I mean
17:49 autrijus except of course if it is a missing new feature... in that case it's truly todo
17:52 broquaint IIRC, which I may not, but in circumstances where { } is potentially ambiguous Code is assumed, and to create a Hash just plonk the "hash" keyword in front of the braces.
17:54 * castaway tickles broquaint
17:55 broquaint Hey c, enjoying a fine Sunday afternoon?
17:55 castaway yup thanks
17:55 autrijus broquaint: no. currently it's defined to always collapse to a hash
17:55 Corion r2304 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - 661 seconds on my machine
17:55 autrijus if its first toplevel AST is either a pair constuctor
17:55 autrijus or a list constructor with the first element being a pair constructor.
17:56 Corion (and one failure :| )
17:56 broquaint Ah yes, that makes sense, autrijus. But I wouldn't think those circumstances ambiguous ;)
17:56 broquaint But then again, I'm not a parser.
17:57 autrijus broquaint: no... Juerd is asking for more
17:57 autrijus consider
17:57 autrijus @foo.map({ 1 => 2 })
17:57 autrijus ah!
17:57 autrijus Juerd: I know! I know!
17:57 autrijus Juerd: we just define adverbial blocks to never collapse ;)
17:57 autrijus i.e.
17:58 autrijus map { 1 => 2 } @foo  # map(Code, Array)
17:58 autrijus map { 1 => 2 }, @foo  # map(Hash, Array)
17:58 autrijus makes sense?
17:58 autrijus I think it does.
17:58 * autrijus writes p6l
18:01 broquaint http://dev.perl.org/perl6/do​c/design/syn/S04.html#___top
18:01 broquaint 'pparently: "If the closure appears to delimit nothing but a comma-separated list starting with a pair (counting a single pair as a list of one element), the closure will be immediately executed as a hash composer."
18:03 gaal Corion incidentally that doesn't count time building pugs, only smoking it.
18:03 Corion gaal: Ah. Hmmm - maybe I should try with "nmake optimized" and then smoking ...
18:04 gaal someone with more make-fu than i should give that a look, fer sure. the 'make smoke' target needs to be rewritten.
18:05 Corion I don't use "make smoke", at least not directly :)
18:05 gaal i think the responsibility on smoke has to be either on run-smoke, or on make smoke, but not both.
18:11 autrijus map_function_return_values.t
18:11 autrijus now works.
18:13 autrijus * implement the tentative proposal of not collapsing a bare block as a hash reference, if it is in an adverbial, loop body, or comma-omission position.
18:13 autrijus r2305
18:16 Corion autrijus: Yay! :) Maybe I should simply everytime select one bug to propagate to a real fail() so you then fix it :)
18:16 Corion Hmmm. "make optimized" does not copy/execute the ext/*/Makefile.PL ...
18:18 jabbot pugs - 2305 - * implement the tentative proposal of no
18:18 Corion Heh. make optimized smoke now takes 341s :)
18:18 Corion err - 371
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18:19 nothingmuch hola
18:20 Corion hola!
18:21 nothingmuch can anyone explain: http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/coord​s.html#TransformMatrixDefined ?
18:22 awwaiid has joined #perl6
18:22 theorbtwo Brok!
18:22 awwaiid howdy
18:22 Corion nothingmuch: What part of it? All (linear) transformations can be expressed as 3x3 matrices
18:22 awwaiid thought I'd drop in and see whatsh shakin in perl6 land
18:23 nothingmuch hola awwaiid
18:23 awwaiid bonjour
18:23 nothingmuch hey, i need an epfarms account for that website
18:23 Corion nothingmuch: You get the target point of the original point by multiplying the original point with the matrix
18:23 nothingmuch what email to use?
18:23 awwaiid [email@hidden.address]
18:24 nothingmuch awwaiid++ ; # look! you didn't even hack pugs, and already a positive karm
18:24 nothingmuch a
18:25 awwaiid crazyness
18:26 theorbtwo Well, by multiplying a /column/ matrix with [x y 1] by the matrix and getting out a /row/ matrix [x' y' 1]
18:28 jabbot pugs - 2306 - * oops, accidentally inhibited the comma
18:33 Corion Hmmm. What was 2306 for ? 2305 raised no error ... Are we missing some test(s) ?
18:34 Corion How do I see via svn/web which files were changed by a commit?
18:34 Aankhen`` Pugs doesn't work with input from a file? :-S
18:34 autrijus Aankhen``: what?
18:35 autrijus Corion: click on the revision num
18:35 Aankhen`` I have Str.foo.p6 containing say "foobar";
18:35 Corion autrijus: D'oh :)
18:35 autrijus Corion: I added a test to 2306
18:35 broquaint has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.2/20050321]")
18:35 Aankhen`` I run pugs Str.foo.p6
18:35 Aankhen`` And get:
18:35 Aankhen`` unexpected "\NUL"
18:35 Aankhen`` expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or
18:35 Aankhen`` end of input
18:35 Aankhen`` NonTerm SourcePos "Str.foo.p6" 1 8
18:36 autrijus it says you have a \NUL.
18:36 autrijus maybe something in your editor?
18:36 autrijus have you saved it as utf16? ;)
18:36 theorbtwo Possibly you saved as utf-16?
18:36 Aankhen`` I saved it as a UTF-8 file with Unix line endings.
18:36 theorbtwo D'oh.
18:36 Aankhen`` Hrm.
18:36 Aankhen`` Weird.
18:37 Aankhen`` I think UltraEdit-32 messed up somewhere.
18:37 Aankhen`` It works now.
18:37 Aankhen`` Looks like it was some encoding issue.
18:37 autrijus I like older versions of UE better.
18:37 broquaint has joined #perl6
18:37 theorbtwo Allo, bro.
18:38 Aankhen`` Ahh, I'm a sucker for shiny new features. :-P
18:40 broquaint Hey, theorbtwo. How're hs-plugins coming along?
18:40 Corion BTW, where should I look for calling Win32 API functions from Haskell?
18:41 theorbtwo eval_haskell is working (for some values of working), and tested.
18:41 theorbtwo I haven't messed with the dynamicly-loaded modules recently.
18:41 broquaint Nifty :)
18:42 Aankhen`` Does "is rw" work?
18:43 Corion Aankhen``: It says so in one of the commits I think
18:43 Corion ... or at least I saw some tests that work now
18:43 Corion ... in t/pugsbugs/
18:43 Corion See t/var/is_rw.t
18:44 cognominal has joined #perl6
18:45 broquaint Is the best place to look for stuff "to do" in todo_* calls in t/ or is there a TODO lying about?
18:45 Aankhen`` perlbot nopaste
18:45 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:45 theorbtwo Working on a pure haskell project at present, to create (graphviz) graphs of haskell module dependences.
18:46 autrijus ooh, useful!
18:46 autrijus can it walk symbols?
18:46 autrijus instead of merely plotting import strings
18:47 broquaint Is that through introspection or some judicious parsing, theorbtwo?
18:47 Corion broquaint: There is the general roadmap (I don't know where), but I usually look at annoying todos in my smoke output (http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html) and fix them.
18:47 Corion ... but by that way, I won't implement new features. New features I implement when I need them in plain P6 code ;)
18:47 theorbtwo It does it by reading the .hi files.
18:48 broquaint Cool, thanks, Corion.
18:48 theorbtwo ...using the parser that is part of hs-plugins.
18:48 Corion (or rather, I ask about them not existing, write tests for them, and release a botched implementation that somebody else then fixes)
18:48 pasteling "Aankhen" at 203.101.1.31 pasted "What am I doing wrong?" (13 lines, 188B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9619
18:48 broquaint Heh, nice :)
18:49 booyaa has joined #perl6
18:49 Corion Worked for sleep(), async() and sockets :)
18:49 autrijus Corion++
18:50 broquaint has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:51 broquaint has joined #perl6
18:52 Corion Should I move older tests (like t/syntax/symbol_table.t) to the new Test.pm API ? It doesn't use eval_ok, which it really should IMO :)
18:52 autrijus Aankhen``: huh, it worksforme
18:52 autrijus Aankhen``: should work for 6.2.1
18:52 Aankhen`` o_O
18:52 autrijus it says "barbar" here
18:52 Aankhen`` Which revision bumped it up to 6.2.1?
18:52 theorbtwo I suspect in theory the function-level dependencies are present, but Hi.Parser doesn't parse a fair bit of the file.
18:53 broquaint What's the difference between a skipped test and a test TODO? Tests that are skipped were/will be working, and tests todo are stuff to be implemented?
18:54 autrijus skipped tests are either:
18:54 autrijus 1. hard parsefails
18:54 autrijus (where you add "fail" before it)
18:54 autrijus or
18:54 autrijus 2. platform-dependent
18:54 Aankhen`` I'm at r2235.
18:54 * Aankhen`` looks for "is rw" in the log.
18:54 Aankhen`` Aha.
18:54 Aankhen`` 2253.
18:54 Aankhen`` No wonder.
18:54 autrijus :)
18:54 * Aankhen`` updates.
18:55 broquaint Thanks, autrijus.
18:55 autrijus np :)
18:55 Aankhen`` I'm starting to dislike RapidSVN.
18:55 stevan has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
18:58 * broquaint ponders implementing caller()
18:58 Corion broquaint++
19:00 broquaint How hard can it be, right?
19:01 nothingmuch isn't that done with magicals now?
19:02 castaway has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:02 nothingmuch for example &?CALLER::SUB is the &?SUB in your CALLER's scope
19:02 nothingmuch so to invoke your parent, &?CALER::SUB.()
19:03 Aankhen`` &?CALLER::SUB.(), even?
19:03 broquaint There are the magical variables, but they really apply to the current sub, whereas you can look up the stack (if you so wish) with caller().
19:03 nothingmuch yep, sorry
19:04 nothingmuch broquaint: the impl stacks
19:04 Aankhen`` ^_^
19:04 broquaint What are "impl" stacks?
19:04 nothingmuch the implementation is a stacking one, it stacks
19:04 nothingmuch when I hacked pugs a while ago, the way it was done is for every CALLER:: in the namespace, one frame is popped of the stack
19:04 nothingmuch stacks is a verb,
19:05 broquaint I guess it'll get interesting with tail-call optimisation and the such. But I think that's mentioned in Apoc6, looking now ...
19:06 nothingmuch oh crapxor
19:06 * Corion weeds out some more test failures
19:07 broquaint I take it (and am hoping) .wrap hasn't been implemented?
19:07 nothingmuch .wrap wasn't
19:07 nothingmuch but look at .assuming
19:07 nothingmuch or wait, maybe it's different
19:07 broquaint Superb.
19:07 nothingmuch it is, actually
19:08 nothingmuch .wrap does an in place edit, right?
19:08 nothingmuch .assuming was fun because it only generates a closure
19:08 Corion Deleting a file via "svn delete" is not harmful for the repository, right?
19:08 nothingmuch Corion: you can undo the delete later, i think
19:09 Corion nothingmuch: Yep - that's what I want to know, because I found a duplicate test :)
19:09 broquaint More or less, nothingmuch, it points the existing subroutine to the wrapped variant, so in theory you should be able to unwrap it.
19:09 * Corion hopes the best.
19:09 nothingmuch it doesn't destroy history
19:09 nothingmuch how does wrapping layer?
19:09 nothingmuch say i take a sub and wrap it
19:10 nothingmuch and someone else wraps it too
19:10 nothingmuch and i remove my wrapping
19:10 nothingmuch is the original sub still wrapped with the last one?
19:10 nothingmuch if yes, it gets a bit tricky
19:10 nothingmuch because this means we need dual indirection here
19:11 nothingmuch or parent links
19:11 nothingmuch so we can make the thing wrapping a removed wrapping point to something else instead
19:11 nothingmuch are you looking into doing this?
19:11 broquaint I believe it's stacked, nothingmuch, so you'd have to .unwrap the secondary sub to .unwrap your sub.
19:12 broquaint http://dev.perl.org/perl6/do​c/design/apo/A06.html#___top
19:12 broquaint So it's not too clearly defined at this stage.
19:12 nothingmuch $subref.unwrap($id); <-- i think this implies it isn't
19:13 nothingmuch v
19:13 nothingmuch There is also likely a .wrappers method that represents the list of all the current wrappers of the subroutine. The ordering and manipulation of this list is beyond the scope of this document, but such activity will be necessary for anyone implementing Aspect-Oriented Programming in Perl 6.
19:14 broquaint Yeah, so it's not so obvious at this point :)
19:14 draven_ has joined #perl6
19:14 autrijus journal up. g'night!
19:14 nothingmuch okay, so i think it is a dually linked list
19:14 nothingmuch last wrapper is always the one being invoked
19:14 nothingmuch cia autrijus
19:15 nothingmuch and you can remove arbitrary wrappings from the list
19:15 broquaint Later, autrijus.
19:15 nothingmuch if you know their IDs
19:15 Corion Can anybody explain to me why t/general/config.t is :todo(1) ? Shouldn't we make that one non-todo to automagically collect the various operation systems?
19:15 * Corion &
19:17 nothingmuch broquaint: if you are planning on implementing .wrap i'll be glad to help
19:17 nothingmuch i've not hacked pugs in a long while and this is a good excuse
19:17 nothingmuch (to start)
19:18 broquaint Well I'm certainly interested in implementing .wrap and .caller, but firstly I have to remember how to code in Haskell and where to start with pugs ;)
19:18 jabbot pugs - 2307 - s!is(eval !eval_is(!g; s!ok(eval !eval_o
19:18 jabbot pugs - 2308 - Some more hard parsefails converted to e
19:18 jabbot pugs - 2309 - NaN calculations work now and the test l
19:18 jabbot pugs - 2310 - Move tests for eval() into t/builtins/ev
19:18 jabbot pugs - 2311 - Move junction test to t/junction/
19:19 broquaint Heh, nice -- XXX absolutely evil bloody hack for "assuming"
19:19 nothingmuch broquaint: well, when you start ping me, and i promised to be lured away from work for at least some hunks of time
19:19 nothingmuch tee hee
19:19 broquaint Cool, thanks nothingmuch.
19:20 * nothingmuch takes the blame for that line
19:20 chady has joined #perl6
19:20 broquaint Is there much to hacking in functions/methods/multis?
19:20 nothingmuch i'm not very up to date on that bit
19:20 nothingmuch maybe someone else can help more
19:20 nothingmuch but:
19:20 nothingmuch MMD: we have that
19:20 nothingmuch methods: they are just single MMDs
19:21 nothingmuch functions: do you mean builtins?
19:21 nothingmuch what we don't have is classes
19:21 nothingmuch or objects
19:21 broquaint Yeah, builtins.
19:21 nothingmuch coding builtins is a nice way to start
19:21 nothingmuch look at all the op1 and op2s in Prim.hs
19:21 broquaint I guess caller() is best implemented as a builtin for the time being
19:22 nothingmuch anyway, i've got to go
19:22 nothingmuch ciao!
19:22 broquaint Later, nothingmuch.
19:22 nothingmuch Aankhen``: when I get back will you still be around?
19:23 * broquaint & # Indiana Jones
19:23 nothingmuch i need massive CSS help
19:25 nothingmuch has left
19:30 xerox has quit IRC ("ERC Version 5.0 (CVS) $Revision: 1.751 $ (IRC client for Emacs)")
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19:55 Corion Dr. Jooooones! Dr. Jooooones!
19:59 stevan you throw me the idol, i throw you the whip
20:00 Corion Adios, stupido!
20:01 * stevan later finds Corion impaled by circuit boards and retrieves the sacred golden Pug
20:01 Corion stevan: You got the reference wrong :) It is me who finds you impaled. :)
20:02 Corion But I lose the golden Pug to some french guy
20:02 stevan Once again Dr. Jones there is nothing you have which I cannot posess
20:03 stevan Corion: I was blinded by the new speed of Pugs :P
20:03 Corion stevan: :))
20:03 Corion ... in the end, will the ghosts we unleash through the tomes of Haskell destroy us all
20:03 Corion ?
20:04 stevan they might get you because you are german, but I'm an american and therefore invincable
20:04 * stevan can't wait for his Haskell book to arrive
20:06 Corion stevan: But I have a cool coathanger!
20:06 stevan but that scar on your hand is really just creepy
20:06 Corion Are there any lvalue-producing builtins yet?
20:06 Corion (I'm considering looking at making substr-lvalues work, but I need to cargo-cult the stuff, obviously)
20:09 autrijus Corion: proxyScalar is the way to go.
20:09 autrijus see Types/Array.hs for sample use.
20:09 * Corion goes looking
20:09 saorge has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:10 chady has quit IRC ("bye")
20:11 * Corion melts like wax in the hot sun
20:11 Corion I guess I should better sleep(28800) now :)
20:11 Corion good night :)
20:11 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
20:11 autrijus night!
20:14 stevan autrijus: I am looking at t/builtin/io/io_in_while_loops.t, and it looks like the reading past the EOF problem is fixed? is that right?
20:14 autrijus hm. splice([], 1) is a fatal error. if someone can add a test for that, I'd be grateful
20:14 stevan autrijus: adding
20:14 autrijus stevan: I believe so, aye
20:14 autrijus list context readline() is now strict.
20:15 stevan goody, I can resurect the Pod parser I was working on
20:15 * autrijus waves &
20:15 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:16 stevan autrijus: is is supposed to cause the error? or is it a todo test?
20:20 ihb has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:32 alfiejohn has left
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20:37 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
20:38 nothingmuch evening
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20:58 jabbot pugs - 2312 - Exchange skip() for eval_is()
21:01 stevan hey nothingmuch
21:01 nothingmuch hola stevan
21:01 nothingmuch anyone want to help with CSS voodo?
21:02 stevan nothingmuch: I can try, but its been a while since I did much CSS
21:02 nothingmuch okay, i'll post a demo thingy
21:02 nothingmuch it's in hebrew, but CSS attrocities still apply ;-)
21:02 stevan LOL
21:02 stevan I warn you, my hebrew is even rustier than my CSS
21:03 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org​/kelaa/demo/who_we_are.html.he
21:03 Aankhen`` You should lowercase UTF-8.
21:06 Aankhen`` Surely that isn't so scary? :-S
21:06 nothingmuch i'll do that
21:06 nothingmuch Aankhen``: the logo is giving me crap
21:06 nothingmuch let me generate a proper png first
21:06 Aankhen`` Alright.
21:06 Aankhen`` I'm not really here though.
21:07 Aankhen`` On the computer for a little while longer before I go to sleep, but sorta busy.
21:07 nothingmuch okay, any suggestions on what we can do now?
21:07 nothingmuch the navigation is hard to do right
21:08 Aankhen`` What are you trying to do?
21:08 nothingmuch make it look right ;-)
21:09 nothingmuch the nav items should be exploded horizontally
21:09 Aankhen`` Ah.
21:09 Aankhen`` You want them to expand and fill up the space?
21:09 gaal nm, a comment on the content: the visitor is given two names, kela and Byahad, with no explanation about their distinction.
21:10 nothingmuch shoshan says: kelaa is a self help group org in general
21:10 nothingmuch and beyahad is specificly for bipolar thingies
21:10 gaal am i suposed to know what shoshan is?
21:11 gaal who shoshan is?
21:11 nothingmuch shoshan is my friend, whom i'm trying to slap a website together for
21:11 nothingmuch she's the brains behind beyahad
21:11 gaal why does kelaa need to be mentioned on this page at all?
21:12 gaal we can move to /msg if you like.
21:12 nothingmuch gaal: it's the parent org
21:13 gaal mention it in the text then. it shouldn't be the page's subtitle.
21:15 stevan has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:15 nothingmuch it shoudln't
21:15 nothingmuch it will be fixed eventually
21:15 nothingmuch but i'm working on presentation, not content ATM
21:18 jabbot pugs - 2313 - Added link to t/builtins/substr.t that l
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21:31 Aankhen`` G'night.
21:31 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Ting pimeout: 999041 seconds [Time wasted online: 8hrs 49mins 29secs]")
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21:55 Juerd autrijus: I can't go into details because I have no better suggestion, but I think disambiguation based on lack of comma sucks.
21:55 madhouse has quit IRC ()
21:56 Juerd autrijus: And I'm starting to wonder why a { ... } can't just be a closure until used in hash context, at which point heuristics come into action
21:57 Juerd autrijus: (more than one statement? runtime error)
21:57 nothingmuch Juerd: autrijus is supposed to be sleeping, methinks
21:57 Juerd nothingmuch: I guess he reads backlogs.
21:57 Juerd I'm reacting to something he said 4 hours ago. Works well.
21:58 nothingmuch ah
21:58 jabbot pugs - 2314 - adding failing splice test per autrijus
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23:21 jroc don't all talk at once ;)
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