Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-04-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:11 jabbot pugs - 2454 - * split the Eval monad into two construc
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02:32 nothingmuch the web is evil
02:37 obra yes
02:43 nothingmuch catalyst is being nice to me though
02:43 nothingmuch how is bamboo progressing?
02:54 nothingmuch ingy: ping
02:58 obra nothingmuch: been working on book and work
02:58 obra about to start to need bambooish things.
02:58 obra so maybe things will happen
02:59 nothingmuch what does it actually do?
02:59 obra right now, increment a counter
03:01 nothingmuch hehe
03:01 nothingmuch what are your plans for it then?
03:01 nothingmuch from what I gathered it is sort of a toolbox for webapps?
03:02 obra oh. we've got some spec. you seen the spec?
03:02 nothingmuch nope
03:02 obra hang on
03:02 * nothingmuch is having a braindead moment:
03:02 obra http://svn.openfoundry.org/bam​boo/trunk/lib/Bamboo/Guide.pod
03:02 nothingmuch shift->method(shift);
03:02 nothingmuch which shift will happen first?
03:02 nothingmuch the right one, right?
03:03 crysflame uh
03:03 crysflame my p5 brain says left first
03:03 nothingmuch (p5)
03:03 crysflame oh, totally left
03:03 crysflame i think
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03:05 nothingmuch you're right
03:05 * nothingmuch is happy
03:05 crysflame left
03:06 crysflame wow, it's still there
03:06 crysflame    goto &{ splice( @_, ARG0, 1 ) } if ref( $_[ARG0] ) eq 'CODE';
03:06 crysflame that's what your question reminded me of
03:06 nothingmuch that's scary
03:06 nothingmuch what is it?
03:07 crysflame it transfers execution to the coderef in $_[0]
03:07 nothingmuch right
03:07 nothingmuch but why like that?
03:07 crysflame well, it was a POE state
03:07 crysflame i could have made it more wordy but that did what i intended
03:07 nothingmuch goto &{ shift } if ref $_[0] eq 'CODE'; ?
03:07 crysflame precedence with shift?
03:07 nothingmuch or maybe i have no clue what ARG0 is
03:07 crysflame also, um, ARG0 isn't $_[0]
03:07 nothingmuch okay
03:08 crysflame it's more like an ENUM that varies at runtime
03:08 nothingmuch what's the precedence issue?
03:08 crysflame (ref: POE)
03:08 crysflame if you shift during a goto, what happens
03:09 mugwump svn 100 software engineers shoot you
03:09 * mugwump didn't remember typing svn
03:09 nothingmuch crysflame: i'm very sleepy, i don't see what's wrong
03:10 crysflame i was really wary, that was all
03:10 crysflame not like wary and goto splice ref CODE mix well
03:10 crysflame but, hey
03:12 nothingmuch ooh, fun
03:12 nothingmuch i think i will learn to use XML::Twig
03:12 nothingmuch someone tell me if i'm sane for doing this:
03:13 nothingmuch i have an XML, in an xml:
03:13 crysflame no
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03:13 nothingmuch <root><elem><nested/></elem><foo/><verbatim> ... xml here ... <elem><bar/></elem> ... </verbatim></root>
03:13 nothingmuch i would like to parse the first <elem> with <nested> in it
03:13 nothingmuch and extract some values
03:14 nothingmuch but i would like to get the string that is the XML inside <verbatim> unparsed
03:14 nothingmuch or rather parsed
03:14 nothingmuch but as text, not as a tree
03:14 nothingmuch is there a better way than what I'm hoping XML::Twig can give me?
03:15 mugwump sounds like a job for XPath
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03:15 mugwump nothingmuch: see the xql method in XML::Sablotron
03:16 nothingmuch xslt... scary
03:16 mugwump oh, ignore that.  it just gives you a nice DOM
03:16 mugwump maybe libxml has an xpath lookup method too
03:17 nothingmuch i don't see an 'xml' method
03:17 nothingmuch oh, sql
03:17 nothingmuch xql
03:17 nothingmuch damnit
03:18 nothingmuch nope, not in the docs either
03:18 mugwump sec, I'll find it
03:18 nothingmuch oh, it's ::DOM
03:18 mugwump http://search.cpan.org/~pavelh​/XML-Sablotron-0.98/DOM/DOM.pm
03:18 mugwump #xql
03:20 mugwump should be able to call toString on the fragments
03:22 nothingmuch sounds good
03:22 nothingmuch the only problem i see is that again i won't be learning to use XML::Twig
03:23 mugwump I recommend to learn the DOM first, it's transferrable knowledge...
03:24 mugwump OTOH XML::Twig has xpath and toString support too
03:25 nothingmuch so basically i make a new situation
03:26 nothingmuch give it to Sablotron
03:26 nothingmuch with some XML
03:26 nothingmuch and then construct a DOM::Document from the situation, after it has been moved around a bit?
03:27 mugwump The situation doesn't seem to do very much, I've always just treated it as something spurious the module needs to work properly :)
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05:10 bsb TreyHarris: did you get an answer to the reduce qn?
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05:42 gaal morning
05:47 bsb hi gaal, just the person I was after
05:48 bsb remember the make ghci failure?
05:48 bsb seems to be a class between:
05:49 bsb /usr/lib/ghc-6.5/HSbase_cbits.o
05:49 bsb src/UnicodeC.o:00000000 T blkcmp
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05:51 bsb gaal, could you please run:   nm -A /usr/lib/ghc-6.*/*.o  | g 'blkcmp'
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05:56 gaal grep you mean yes? :)
05:57 bsb yep, my alias, sorry
05:57 gaal anyway, not found on my linux box.
05:57 bsb You have ghc-6.4 from experimental, yes?
05:57 gaal sounds like we need to rename a symbol in our copy of the code eh?
05:57 gaal yup
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05:58 bsb I guess we do
05:59 bsb I'm reading about ghc packages, may be an alternative there...
05:59 gaal it's not referenced anywher ein the project, btw, wo it's simple enough.
05:59 gaal ooh, that might be a better alternative.
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06:00 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html r2454
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06:35 bsb gaal: no luck at the package level
06:35 bsb the only symbol not in ghc's base package is u_iswdigit
06:36 bsb Why would they leave only one out?
06:41 TreyHarris bsb: no, i never got an answer
06:42 bsb I think reduce is foldl1 in the prelude
06:42 bsb could be wrong though, /fold[lr]1?'?/ all confuse me
06:43 TreyHarris my machine with ghc is rebooting... do you happen to know where the prelude is in hugs?
06:44 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:44 bsb in hugs do :find fold1
06:44 bsb ":find foldl"
06:44 TreyHarris oh, cool.  didn't know about :find
06:45 bsb It's nice
06:46 gaal TreyHarris: this may be useful too: http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/late​st/html/libraries/doc-index.html
06:47 gaal bsb: try renaming the symbol in our copy of UnicodeC?
06:47 TreyHarris i see... so it's like i suspected.  foldl1 calls foldl.  since you can't make a single function both return a list and an element
06:47 gaal it's only mentioned one apart from the declaration
06:48 autrijus hi \camels
06:48 gaal the better solution would be to introduce symbol mangling but i don't know how to do that.
06:48 gaal ehy autrijus
06:49 autrijus problem with latest ghc?
06:49 gaal permute<ehy>
06:49 obra hey autrijus
06:49 autrijus yo obra
06:49 autrijus in ghc 6.5 (cvs version tthat is) I suggest disabling our UnicodeC
06:49 bsb autrijus: yes, clash on UnicodeC.o
06:50 autrijus bsb: I'll try a fix. sec
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06:50 bsb note that haskell lacks u_iswdigit
06:53 TreyHarris does !! end up getting optimized somehow, or is it really O(n) as the prelude specifies it?
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06:54 autrijus TreyHarris: I think it's O(n) in the general case
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06:54 obra hey Schwern
06:54 Schwern Hey.
06:55 Schwern Stevan asked me to have a look at Test.pm and the todo stuff.  I don't understand what all the fuss is about, looks trivial to me.
06:55 TreyHarris autrijus: thanks.   btw, i find pugs incredible amusing, because it's given me an excuse to do Haskell again after 15 years... it was my very first "real" language :-)
06:55 autrijus TreyHarris: that's good... 15 years ago you didn't have monads, right? :)
06:56 TreyHarris i don't think so....  i didn't even learn I/O, because it made no sense to me.  either i've learned enough in the interim to understand monads now, or they were using something else then
06:57 autrijus I think they are using
06:57 autrijus main :: [Response] -> [Request]
06:57 autrijus back then
06:57 TreyHarris yeah, that looks familiar
06:58 TreyHarris i don't think Gofer even had that though
06:58 decay castaway: you didn't try to find us yesterday, did you?
06:58 gaal autrijus, time for clues on #line?
06:59 castaway Nope
06:59 autrijus gaal: give me some time to fix the Unicode.hs
06:59 gaal sure. i'd ask on #haskell but it looks like some of this is too pugs specific?
06:59 Schwern So the goal here is to make TODO tests fail visibly when developing Pugs?
07:02 Schwern How does one run an individual pugs test?
07:03 gaal Schwern: prove -v t/test.t
07:03 gaal but you need to set up env first:
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07:03 gaal export HARNESS_PERL=$PWD/pugs    # or ./pugs, whatever you prefer
07:04 gaal export PERL6LIB=ext/Test/lib
07:04 Schwern make test TEST_FILES=foo.t seems to work
07:04 gaal that's cool too (does it do verbose?)
07:04 Schwern Probably.  Its just makemaker
07:06 Schwern *** Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "TODO: defined sub (symbol table)": NonTerm SourcePos "/Users/schwern/devel/pugs/blib6/lib/Test.pm" 195 9: NonTerm SourcePos "/Users/schwern/devel/pugs/blib6/lib/Test.pm" 67 5
07:06 Schwern Any idea what that means?
07:06 Schwern 196 is $desc = "TODO: $desc";
07:07 Schwern Are function arguments read-only by default?
07:07 gaal yes, add 'is rw'
07:07 Schwern is rw works?
07:08 Schwern Str ?$desc is rw?
07:08 Schwern Maybe I want is copy
07:08 Schwern Yep
07:08 gaal i think they do, Schwern.
07:09 autrijus you want is copy.
07:09 Schwern Ok, force_todo is now unnecessary.
07:09 autrijus Schwern++ # mad perl6 skillz
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07:12 autrijus bsb: please retry the build r2455
07:13 autrijus bsb: and let me know if ./t/syntax/unicode.t works
07:15 bsb ok
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07:21 bsb ./t/syntax/unicode.t All tests successful
07:21 jabbot pugs - 2455 - * GHC 6.5 had the new unicode semantics
07:23 bsb make ghci only works if I remove UnicodeC.o
07:23 bsb I didn't make clean though
07:26 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-msys.html r2455 ghc6.4 msys
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07:32 autrijus bsb: cool, then it works
07:32 gaal #line? :)
07:32 autrijus :r
07:32 autrijus err, ww
07:33 autrijus gaal: ok, url?
07:34 gaal http://sial.org/pbot/9738 and  http://sial.org/pbot/9739
07:34 gaal notes: 1. i know i'm doing something wrong aroung "ld <- try $ do" because fail "" from there leaves the function;
07:34 gaal 2. this breaks with e.g. t/statements/last.t - with very weird debug prints, e.g. reported line numbers that go up to line 72 - much more than the length of that file.
07:35 gaal the second url is a test file that does work correctly.
07:35 Alias_ autrijus: #threatnet is finally alive :)
07:36 autrijus gaal: ok. I'll bring it to lunch :)
07:36 autrijus Alias_: what is that?
07:36 autrijus or rather, breakfast
07:37 gaal btw, you prefer the whole parser.hs file?
07:37 Alias_ autrijus: Spiffy idea 2004-D :)
07:37 Alias_ autrijus: Globally networked greylisting system
07:37 gaal i can upload that too if you'd rather.
07:37 Alias_ many-many stateless over IRC
07:37 Alias_ http://ali.as/threatnet/
07:37 Alias_ could have sworn I mentioned it earlier
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07:38 autrijus gaal: how about you just committing it?
07:38 gaal it breaks some tests
07:38 autrijus so?
07:38 gaal good point. :)
07:38 autrijus I thought the rule is it's okay to commit things as long as it doesn't break Test.pm :)
07:39 gaal okay, i'll merge with lastest r and clean up the trace prints.
07:39 castaway I thought it was "commit anyway, someone will fix it" :)
07:40 gaal castaway: i don't want someone to do my wokr for me
07:40 gaal i want to figure out what i'm doing wrong, with help of someone who knows better than me :)
07:40 castaway then label it "ork in progress" ?
07:40 castaway (preferably with a "w" :)
07:41 * gaal orks in progress.
07:42 gaal it breaks many tests where there's a comment starting at column 1. that scarier? :)
07:45 gaal r2456
07:45 bsb Does assuming have an inverse, an unassuming method?
07:45 gaal in haskell that's called uncurry
07:46 bsb But that's a bit different, I think
07:46 gaal don't know about the p6 version
07:46 bsb And it doesn't sound as nice as "unassuming"
07:46 * gaal agrees unassuming does sound nice.
07:46 bsb uncurry bundles the first to params in a tuple
07:47 gaal *curry* sounds nice to all indian food lovers though.
07:47 bsb Mmm. I think I'm getting one cooked for me tonight.
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07:52 jabbot pugs - 2456 - #line directive, work in progress
07:55 autrijus woot.
07:55 * autrijus goes to lunch &
07:55 tainted- has joined #perl6
07:56 tainted- hi
07:56 tainted- are newbies welcome here?
07:56 gaal of course!
07:56 tainted- #perl is incredibly intolerant of newbs
07:57 gaal tainted, this channel is primarily for development of perl6 though, so p5 Qs aren't very appropriate
07:57 gaal however, if you have p6 Qs, fire away :)
07:57 castaway perlmonks.org is better for newbies.. :9
07:58 tainted- yea i need a perl newbie channel
07:58 gaal perlmonks.org is *excellent*.
07:58 castaway try the chatterbox on perlmonks
07:58 tainted- k
07:58 castaway (thats a website, not irc, btw :)
07:58 gaal there are some good p5 newcomer lists.
07:59 gaal http://www.perl.org.il/mailman/listinfo/starter/ is one, hosted by Israel.pm.
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07:59 tainted- wow great thanks guys
07:59 tainted- 10 minutes in here > 2 hrs in #perl
08:00 castaway well we're probably less busy too, (the channel that is)
08:00 castaway not that I've ever been in #perl
08:02 Alias_ Which #perl :)
08:03 castaway any :)
08:03 * castaway waits to see when tainted turns up in the CB..
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08:13 castaway mornin osfameron
08:13 osfameron morning castaway
08:14 castaway how's fotango-land? :)
08:15 osfameron yeah, pretty good
08:15 castaway nifty
08:16 osfameron yeah, lots of exciting stuff going on
08:16 osfameron (though I'm pretty much doing stats automation ;-) )
08:17 castaway cool
08:17 * castaway is pondering/attempting to apply for a job there ,)
08:18 osfameron good luck!
08:18 osfameron or break a leg, or something
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08:18 castaway heh
08:19 castaway actually a recruiter asked me if I was interested, and I think she's still waiting for feedback
08:19 osfameron Preferred?
08:20 castaway sorry?
08:20 osfameron I guess not then (name of the agency that I went through)
08:20 castaway oh the agency..
08:21 castaway yup, them
08:21 jabbot pugs - 2457 - unbreak the build
08:21 jabbot pugs - 2458 - * The Eval monad is now split into (SIO/
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08:25 autrijus omg. I'm seeing an unbelievable amount of speedup.
08:25 gaal autrijus, are the tests parsing for you? i think i've broken them all :)
08:25 autrijus I think at least 3x.
08:26 autrijus gaal: you've broken them all.
08:26 autrijus I'm fixing.
08:26 gaal at least it means they run a little bit faster. *duck*
08:26 autrijus uh no
08:26 autrijus if you would, update to r2455
08:26 autrijus (before your commit)
08:26 autrijus and apply r2458 by hand
08:26 autrijus I think it will result in a huge speedup.
08:27 autrijus mandel.p6 is blazing here.
08:28 gaal BTW: i've made it so pugs can build on cywgin
08:28 autrijus cool
08:28 gaal since wokring with msys is like wearing a hairshirt
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08:31 gaal that's a large patch, autrijus
08:32 autrijus it's in http://autrijus.org/tmp/r2458.diff
08:32 gaal oh, thanks, no i can manage with svn
08:33 gaal i was commenting on the
08:33 gaal hmm
08:33 gaal insanity :)
08:34 gaal wow, i hadn't realized cygwin was under so heavy development
08:35 gaal i wanted to install patchutils which i embarassingly didn't have installed, now it's updating many mbs
08:35 gaal prolly want a reboot sometime :( building on the other box in the meantime.
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08:43 gaal the trick to upgrading cygwin w/o a system reboot is to do it while all cygwin programs are closed.
08:44 gaal sucks, but less than a complete reboot.
08:47 autrijus gaal: #line is in
08:47 autrijus now I really need to get food.
08:47 autrijus &
08:47 gaal thanks... i'd like to understand how it's done
08:47 gaal oh
08:47 gaal i'll ask you later then. bon apetite.
08:47 autrijus see Lexer :)
08:48 autrijus you can hack in filename support
08:48 autrijus &
08:48 gaal right.
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09:01 jabbot pugs - 2459 - * fix #line directive.
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09:04 gaal woot! autrijus, your patch provides something on the order of another 11% speedup on make smoke.
09:08 bsb S06/Pointy subs: does not require a preceding comma when included in a list
09:08 bsb does that include: @a = ("one" -> $x { $x**2 }, "three")
09:09 bsb or is it only to allow for @list -> $elem { ... }
09:31 jabbot pugs - 2460 - * Pugs can now build on cygwin
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09:41 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html r2460/cygwin
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09:51 gaal autrijus: ping
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09:52 gaal i'm afraid #line still doesn't work. the tests are very funny.
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09:55 gaal i.e. adding a subtest makes the ones before it pass where they previously had failed.
10:01 jabbot pugs - 2461 - basic tests for #line, see comment withi
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11:06 nothingmuch good morning
11:06 nothingmuch sort of
11:08 castaway afternoon :)
11:15 theorbtwo Good sort-of-morning to you too, nm.
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12:37 stevan hey all
12:38 Steve_p Good morning
12:38 theorbtwo G'morning, Stevan, Steve.
12:39 theorbtwo Erm, g'afternoon.
12:39 theorbtwo .oO(Time flies when you're cursing Make.)
12:39 stevan good morning guys :)
12:39 stevan I see Schwern was in here helping on Test.pm, but I dont see any commits
12:39 stevan any idea oh what he did? It looked as if he eliminated the need for force_todo()
12:40 stevan which would be nice :)
12:41 jabbot pugs - 2462 - * rewrote position handling and statemen
12:41 jabbot pugs - 2463 - * bare block execution restored in the p
12:42 autrijus greetings.
12:42 autrijus I just rewrote everything :D
12:42 stevan autrijus++ # :)
12:42 autrijus (well, in this regard, it's everything in the parser part)
12:42 Steve_p heh
12:42 stevan autrijus: any idea what Schwern did with Test.pm? I am not seeing any commits
12:42 autrijus had no idea how many things will break
12:42 * autrijus runs test
12:42 autrijus stevan: he added "is copy" to $desc or something
12:42 autrijus but I think he forgot to svk push
12:43 stevan autrijus: actually think he misunderstood what I was asking him about
12:43 Juerd autrijus: What keeps you motivated?
12:43 stevan oh well I will email him
12:43 theorbtwo Morning, autrijus.
12:43 autrijus Juerd: thank-you messages
12:43 autrijus yo theorbtwo.
12:44 autrijus we have a much cleaner Pos model
12:44 autrijus $ ./pugs -e 'die 123'
12:44 autrijus *** Error: 123 at -e line 1, column 1-8
12:44 theorbtwo I'm finally starting to get somewhere with the haddocking.  Make sucks; the problem was in spaces-vs-tabs.
12:45 theorbtwo Now the problem seems to be in haddock's haskell parser.
12:45 Juerd Working on the same thing for 87 days, rewriting things over and over until they're perfect, communicating with almost everyone in the Perl universe... It's a form of commitment I haven't previously seen anywhere.
12:45 * Juerd is very glad you're doing it, though :)
12:45 autrijus Juerd: see, seeing you're glad keeps me motivated
12:46 Juerd Admirable
12:46 autrijus Juerd: I don't really ask much... I just want a working Perl 6 :)
12:46 theorbtwo I'm also glad you're doing it -- and think you are mad as a hatter.
12:46 autrijus mmm hatter
12:47 stevan working perl6 ++
12:47 theorbtwo (Heavy metal poisoning)--
12:47 Juerd autrijus: Right. That statement is in bizarre disagreement with itself.
12:47 stevan (((insanity driven-development)++)++)++
12:47 Juerd heh
12:48 * theorbtwo wonders if the karma-tracking agents grok the parened form.
12:48 Juerd I don't think autrijus is insane. Mad, yes, but one has to be pretty sane and have good feeling for sanity to implement something as vague and futuristic as Perl 6 in current time.
12:49 stevan Juerd: IMO insanity is 1) not always a bad thing 2) fairly subjective :)
12:50 stevan " normal " thought processes are not always appropriate when programming
12:50 Juerd In your opinion, it is subjective. Hm, nice.
12:50 Juerd stevan: insane is a form of unhealthy
12:50 stevan the thought complexity of programming requires a mind which can be heavy in the abstract, but still remain grounded
12:50 theorbtwo Hmm... haddoc doesn't like the ^# \d+ ".*" style of line directive (which ghc in .hs->.hpp mode outputs), nor does it like #ifdef.
12:51 * theorbtwo wonders if he's using an old haddock, or if it really needs some perl lovin.
12:51 scook0 theorbtwo: I've been working on fixing stuff for haddock
12:51 stevan Juerd: its all diagnositic BS IMHO
12:52 jabbot pugs - 2464 - * the last block on a Stmts chain needs
12:52 theorbtwo Fixing haddock to work with pugs, or fixing pugs to work with haddock?
12:52 scook0 Fixing pugs
12:53 scook0 I found you can work around the #ifdef problem by enclosing each directive in {- -} comments
12:53 scook0 I'm looking at some other stuff as well
12:53 theorbtwo I'm doing it by preprocessing first, and am about to stick in a perl -i -pe after that.
12:54 scook0 How well does that work?
12:55 theorbtwo Donno yet.
12:55 Juerd autrijus++  # Just read the journal. I should make this my browser's home page.
12:55 theorbtwo RSS++
12:55 Juerd Yeah, but this is the first entire journal I'd like to RSS
12:55 theorbtwo (But I generally read it as soon as it's announced, before it hits my friends page.)
12:56 Juerd I haven't used RSS yet because use.perl has no all-journals feed.
12:56 autrijus heads up: fp.p6 infinite loops. fixing
12:56 Juerd Woohoo
12:56 Juerd car's ready
12:56 Juerd It now runs on LPG
12:57 theorbtwo LPG?
12:59 theorbtwo scook0: Have you hit the problem of haddock disliking TH yet?
13:00 Juerd theorbtwo: A cleaner fuel.
13:00 Juerd That happens to be less expensive too
13:01 theorbtwo Wow.  Eval.hpp makes my xemacs' hilighter take lots of CPU.
13:01 Juerd In the netherlands, it's available at almost 50% of all service stations
13:01 theorbtwo Sounds great!
13:02 * Juerd is now waiting for his brother
13:02 Juerd There he is
13:02 Juerd gone.
13:02 Juerd afk
13:02 theorbtwo Later!
13:02 scook0 theorbtwo: TH? (no...)
13:02 theorbtwo Template Haskell.
13:04 autrijus ...679 failed.
13:04 theorbtwo r2465 has a rule for making hpp files from hs files.
13:04 theorbtwo Try make src/Pugs/Compile/Haskell.hpp, then feed that to haddock.
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13:07 Qiang_ is now known as Qiang
13:08 theorbtwo Ah, somebody on #haskell says that a new haddock is expected "soonish".
13:09 scook0 'Soonish'...
13:10 SM_ax has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.7/20050420]")
13:10 theorbtwo Yeah, I rather wonder when that is as well.
13:11 theorbtwo I don't see an accessable VCS on the haddock page, either.
13:11 broquaint has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:11 scook0 I wonder if there is a way to tell Haddock to ignore chunks of code...
13:11 jabbot pugs - 2465 - Rule for making .hpp files for haddockin
13:14 masak has joined #perl6
13:15 gaal autrijus, ping
13:16 autrijus pong
13:16 kungfuftr *splat* it was a cherry bomb
13:16 gaal saw the amusing magicals/line_basic.t ?
13:16 autrijus yeah.
13:17 gaal that's on par with the kind of weirdness i've been moosing with...
13:18 gaal but most of all i want to understand how i generalize try
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13:21 gaal so i can say something like { filename <- try ruleFileName ; setPosition if filename (....) else (...) }
13:21 autrijus sure
13:21 autrijus you have to test (null fulename)
13:21 gaal i can't seem to fail "" there
13:21 gaal because that dose weird things to the rule
13:21 masak has quit IRC ("masak has no reason")
13:22 gaal also there's still the weird bug that makes me think maybe the rule isn't terminating correctly
13:22 masak has joined #perl6
13:23 theorbtwo OK, have working haddock documentation, but only after a lot of manual work commenting out the bits of the .hpp that haddock doesn't grok.
13:23 theorbtwo (TH, GADTs, and some stuff that I don't know why it doesn't like.)
13:23 scook0 You haddocked the whole thing?
13:23 theorbtwo Yep.
13:24 autrijus ooh.
13:25 theorbtwo Now I have to either fix haddock, or figure out how to automate that manual bit.
13:25 gaal oh, and also: skipToLineEnd should probably try to consume the newline too, no? At least as an optimization.
13:25 theorbtwo The problem with just commenting out the bits it doesn't like is that then we loose documentation for them.
13:27 autrijus gaal: I'd rather you keep it...
13:27 autrijus not sure
13:27 gaal uh, oh, larry just posted about context :)
13:28 autrijus uh.
13:28 * autrijus head explodes
13:28 gaal autrijus, okay, that's just a thought about optmization. what worries me much more is correctness, and i don't understand the bug where snipping lines from the end of a file causes passing subtests to fail.
13:30 autrijus "I think S02 is probably wrong.  It should be unknown/list context.
13:30 autrijus in Soviet Russia, Synopsis writes Larry!
13:31 Draven_ yay
13:32 autrijus ok, there should be less test failures now
13:32 metaperl has joined #perl6
13:33 * gaal smokes
13:38 autrijus gaal: example.t still hangs
13:38 * Limbic_Region is having trouble coming up with a real world example of a list you might need to process that would be too big to fit in memory all at once
13:39 Limbic_Region any suggestions?
13:39 autrijus Limbic_Region: a video stream?
13:39 integral do strings count?  If so, genetic stuff
13:39 Limbic_Region integral - I was just thinking of genetic stuff
13:40 integral any area where you've got lots of experimental data I suppose, physics, medcine, etc
13:41 Limbic_Region real problem - typically the genetic stuff would be in a file and you would just read it one line at a time
13:41 gaal attention all smokers: if you have a script that uploads your smoke results automatically, put it in PUGS_SMOKE_UPLOAD and run-smoke.pl will call it for you.
13:41 Limbic_Region I am trying to have a real world example of iterators where the next item is calculated from the previous
13:41 Limbic_Region bah - nevermind, I will come up with something
13:41 gaal pi?
13:41 integral random number generator?
13:42 gaal primes?
13:42 jabbot pugs - 2466 - * fold redundant Pos cells; this should
13:42 jabbot pugs - 2467 - * Allow user-defined upload command for
13:44 machack666 has joined #perl6
13:44 machack666 hola
13:44 machack666 Anyone want to interpret a portion of S04?
13:45 machack666 I'm trying to figure out if traits are introspective.
13:46 machack666 S04 seems to hint that, but does not go into detail about how we are doing this.
13:46 theorbtwo You mean if there's a way to ask "does this value have this trait"?
13:46 theorbtwo Er, s/value/container/
13:46 machack666 correct, but I'm dealing with cclosure traits
13:47 machack666 if &?BLOCK is the current block, I'm not sure of what the best way to specify syntax for (say) all of the ENTER blocks
13:47 machack666 but we also have the wrinkle where individual variables can be declared with traits
13:48 machack666 my $var will first { get_a_job() }
13:48 machack666 this statement should add an implicit FIRST{} block to the containing closure, with $var as the topicalizer.  No problems there
13:49 machack666 but do we also need to have an introspection method for the $var variable itself --- $var.traits or something
13:49 theorbtwo I should think so.
13:49 machack666 so does &?BLOCK.traits make sense as well?
13:50 theorbtwo Yes.
13:50 machack666 I would think that we could just have traits be a rw hashref with the trait type as the key
13:50 theorbtwo The .traits method would be on Any, which includes Block.
13:51 theorbtwo So would I.
13:51 machack666 i.e., &?BLOCK.traits<ENTER>
13:51 machack666 would give us an array of the closures to be run on block entry
13:51 theorbtwo Makes sense to me.
13:51 jabbot pugs - 2468 - * add Pos back to structural folding.
13:52 theorbtwo Post to p6l about it, and get a larry to put in in an S?
13:52 machack666 but if we allow user-defined traits we need some sort of transofrmation rule for the control traits when they are defined.
13:52 theorbtwo Why?
13:53 machack666 my $var will later { run_away() }
13:53 machack666 if "later" is user-defined then does it get transformed into $var.traits<LATER>?
13:54 machack666 or do we just leave it as is?
13:55 machack666 we should be consistent about naming.  Since closure-level traits are ALL CAPS, and variable-level traits (which may extrapolate to the block level) are lower, we need to resolve those for the triggers.
13:55 machack666 unless we want to try to execute all traits for both &?BLOCK.traits<ENTER enter>
13:55 machack666 i.e., either the variable traits become uppercase or the block traits become lower
13:56 machack666 well, gotta go
13:56 machack666 has left
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14:01 jabbot pugs - 2469 - * even more structural induction fixes o
14:01 jabbot pugs - 2470 - * even more folding
14:07 gaal gotta go too. see 'ya. &
14:23 autrijus testers, please don't write
14:24 autrijus is (...)
14:24 autrijus anymore
14:24 autrijus is(...)
14:24 autrijus is the only correct way
14:24 clkao you hate my space!
14:24 autrijus yes.
14:24 theorbtwo (Significant whitespace)--
14:25 autrijus uh.
14:25 autrijus print (4+3)*7
14:25 autrijus you think it should print 7?
14:25 autrijus I find that to be quite indefensible :)
14:26 theorbtwo It's a hard choice for me what the better of those two evils is.
14:32 jabbot pugs - 2471 - * abstract all induction into "Unwrap" c
14:32 jabbot pugs - 2472 - * whitespace fixes
14:33 theorbtwo My preference, I think, is that it prints 7, and warns of multipication in void context.
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14:35 autrijus but it is a warnable offense in p5.
14:35 autrijus %s (...) interpreted as function
14:36 autrijus I don't know, really.
14:36 gugod has joined #perl6
14:36 autrijus Juerd said it's been decided that bareword functions no longer globs space
14:38 theorbtwo It's only a warnable offense with print.
14:39 theorbtwo ...and only with exactly one space.
14:39 autrijus which is weird too. :-/
14:39 autrijus I prefer consistent whitespace-sensitive rules over arbitary whitespace-insensitive rules :)
14:39 theorbtwo No, it makes sense; the foo-in-scalar-context warning covers it when it's a problem.
14:41 autrijus I think I'd rest my case.
14:41 gugod has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
14:41 autrijus I see now it's a defensible position, but my brain is not wired that way :)
14:41 gugod has joined #perl6
14:42 jabbot pugs - 2473 - * unTODO a test
14:42 jabbot pugs - 2474 - * Noop is now consistently ignored durin
14:44 Schwern has joined #perl6
14:47 stevan hola Schwern
14:48 Schwern Hey
14:48 stevan can you commit what you did yesterday?
14:48 Schwern Yeah, sorry, I was working on it while waiting for a friend's flight to come in at the aiport... and she came in.
14:49 stevan ah
14:49 stevan no big deal, I am just anxious to see what it was
14:50 Schwern So all it does is change all todo tests to be not todo unless %ENV<PUGS_RELEASE> is set.
14:50 stevan ok
14:50 Schwern And if the test failed.
14:50 stevan but there are many tests which should still TODO
14:50 stevan as I mentioned in my email , there is kind of 2 layers of TODO
14:50 Schwern Oh.
14:51 stevan those which should work, but not yet
14:51 Schwern Then why not make two?
14:51 Schwern Wait... no, I really don't get it.
14:51 stevan and those which are not yet implemented and are far off
14:51 Schwern Ahh.
14:51 Schwern Make two levels of todo.
14:51 stevan take object for instance
14:51 stevan they are way off (which in pugs land is a few weeks)
14:51 jabbot pugs - 2475 - * more whitespace.
14:52 stevan and then odd forms of for loop (for @array &sub)
14:52 stevan which are just not on the radar, but "should" work
14:52 stevan how would you suggest we go about 2 level-todos?
14:52 Schwern Gotcha.
14:52 stevan then of course, the whole policy of "when releasing failures are TODO"
14:53 stevan which I know has its drawbacks/issues
14:53 Schwern That's simply wrong.
14:53 theorbtwo Perhaps :todo<6.2.8.3>, which is TODO until version 6.2.8.3, then becomes a hard failure.
14:53 autrijus Schwern: so you'd suggest releasing with todos?failures?
14:53 stevan theorbtwo: thats maybe a little too specific :)
14:53 Schwern theo:  I doubt things are that stable.
14:54 stevan maybe :todo is regular TODO
14:54 Schwern autrijus:  I'm against the idea that ALL failures should be todo when releasing.
14:54 autrijus Schwern: what would you do as an alternative?
14:54 stevan and :todo(2) is for "not even close stuff"
14:54 Schwern autrijus:  Umm.... let them fail or don't release with failures.
14:54 autrijus Schwern: we are on times releases
14:54 autrijus and we did let them fail
14:54 Schwern autrijus:  Then don't run the tests.
14:54 autrijus but then, lots of people download tarballs and mail me
14:54 autrijus saying they have failures.
14:55 Schwern did you *expect* them to fail?
14:55 autrijus yes.
14:55 Schwern Then mark them as todo!
14:55 autrijus we are on a timed release schedule.
14:55 autrijus sure, but luqui has this great idea
14:55 stevan Schwern, that is waht we do (with force_todo())
14:55 Schwern Like, *ding* its 12 noon... release!
14:55 autrijus of having two TODOness
14:55 autrijus one is for things that are should be fixed asap
14:55 autrijus (bugs)
14:55 autrijus one is for things we can do at leisure
14:55 Schwern autrijus:  Right, that's what we're talking about right now.
14:55 autrijus (features)
14:56 stevan Schwern: more like, *ding* its 2am Tiawan time, ... release
14:56 autrijus s/2am/7am/
14:56 Schwern stevan:  Is this release automatic?
14:56 stevan LOL
14:56 stevan Schwern: not really
14:56 theorbtwo autrijus: what do you think about the idea of sprinkling #ifndef HADDOCK around?
14:56 Schwern Good.  Then yes, take anything which is exepected to fail and mark it as TODO.
14:56 autrijus theorbtwo: I think it's fine.
14:56 stevan Schwern: that is what force_todo() is for :)
14:57 stevan otherwise it is a tedious process
14:57 Schwern stevan:  Except its horribly unmaintainable.
14:57 autrijus :todo<bug>
14:57 theorbtwo Perhaps :knownbug and :wishlist?
14:57 stevan (truet me I did it many times)
14:57 autrijus :todo<feature>
14:57 stevan Schwern: it isnt really maintained though
14:57 Schwern Exactl
14:57 Schwern y
14:57 stevan it is there for release, and removed afterwards
14:57 stevan stop-gap measure only
14:58 stevan :todo<some attribute>++ # I like that
14:58 autrijus and we can have some flag
14:58 Schwern PUGS_RELEASE is what I used.
14:58 autrijus that ignores certain flags
14:58 Schwern Its committed.
14:58 autrijus oh good.
14:58 autrijus you rc0k.
14:58 stevan Schwern: thanks
14:58 Schwern Well, Test.pm will honor PUGS_RELEASE but nothing sets it
14:59 Schwern I couldn't figure out the twisty maze of MakeMaker hacks.
14:59 autrijus Schwern: is it a ENV var?
14:59 Schwern Ayep
14:59 autrijus k.
15:00 masak help /unjoin
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15:01 Schwern stevan:  Ok, so you can handle the multi-layer todo?
15:02 jabbot pugs - 2476 - * repair hash unwrapping on rhs.
15:02 jabbot pugs - 2477 - Make all TODO tests fail visibly unless
15:02 stevan Schwern: yup!,... muchas gracias for the input
15:06 nothingmuch hola stevan
15:07 perlmonks-bot has joined #perl6
15:08 Schwern Excellent.  My work here is done.
15:08 Schwern has quit IRC ("My work here is done.  If you need me again admit that you're screwed and die.")
15:08 perlmonks-bot http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=450922
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15:08 theorbtwo Who was that masked bot?
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15:19 autrijus Juerd: all our S02 semantic went out from window in r2476
15:19 autrijus * * Larry invoked Rule 2. We deal.
15:19 stevan hey nothingmuch
15:19 * nothingmuch is developing with Catalyst and loving every minute
15:19 stevan nice
15:20 stevan I have been reading all that stuff, looks very cool
15:20 nothingmuch http://woobling.org:81/page/מי_אנחנו <-- currently somewhat broken
15:20 nothingmuch it is
15:20 nothingmuch but soon: two models (simple xhtml in xml files, and CDBI)
15:21 nothingmuch templating was very easy
15:21 nothingmuch control flow is logical
15:21 nothingmuch and it's very very flexible
15:21 jabbot pugs - 2478 - * Larry invoked Rule 2. We deal.
15:24 theorbtwo Hm, how many backslashes do I need for this insanity?
15:25 stevan '/' x Inf
15:25 theorbtwo I want to do a perl -pe 's/(...)/...$1.../' from a Makefile, which is generated from a qq() heredoc in a Makefile.PL.
15:26 theorbtwo Oh... but I need doublequotes on the outside for portability.
15:26 xerox has joined #perl6
15:27 autrijus theorbtwo: you can invoke util/ instead
15:27 broquaint has joined #perl6
15:27 autrijus util/munge_haddock.pl
15:27 autrijus look at how util/src_to_blib.pl
15:27 autrijus was invoked
15:27 theorbtwo Hm, it feels silly to invoke a sepperate file for something as short as -i -pe "s/^(#.*)/{- $1 -}/"
15:27 autrijus trust me, it is for the best.
15:28 autrijus oh and -i is unusable on win32
15:28 autrijus have to roll you own
15:28 autrijus or use -i.bak
15:29 theorbtwo Ugh.  Silly default mandatory locking.
15:31 jabbot pugs - 2479 - * fix tic-tac-toe in light of the contex
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15:42 Juerd autrijus: Too bad...
15:44 Corion Did we remove most of the :todo(1) tests? I see lots of red in my smoke :)
15:45 Juerd They were made :todo tests if I read the journal correctly.
15:45 Juerd Not that :todo should result in anythign other than :todo(1), though
15:45 Juerd But if that's broken, everything using it breaks too :)
15:46 Corion BTW, the data on my machine (datenzoo.de) is still accessible via ssh, but it won't come up in non-recovery mode at the moment it seems. Even after I did a fsck already ...
15:46 theorbtwo Probably some important file gone missing.
15:47 theorbtwo /etc/fstab, at a guess.
15:47 Juerd Hehe
15:47 Corion theorbtwo: Hmmm. Interesting idea ...
15:47 Juerd fstab isn't important except at boot time :)
15:47 Corion BTW, I see both, failing and :todo(1) tests, so it's not :todo that is broken
15:47 Juerd Unless you boot with a writable root fs :)
15:47 Corion (dark green and red)
15:48 Corion No, /boot is a separate partition and is likely mounted ro
15:48 Juerd /boot doesn't have to be mounted
15:49 Juerd It's accessed directly by the boot loader, before any fs is mounted.
15:49 Juerd And after that, it's no longer needed except for reconfiguration of the boot loader of course.
15:49 Corion ah, so it's merely mounted after that as a convenience
15:49 Juerd (Assuming Linux. I don't know how other systems do this)
15:49 Corion Juerd: Linux is correct :)
15:49 Juerd Corion: Well, not just that. It's usually mounted to indicate that it is indeed a separate partition
15:50 Juerd While otherwise installing packages might poison the otherwise empty mount point.
15:50 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
15:50 Juerd It's then better to get errors about not being able to write on a read-only filesystem than to think everything is alright, reboot and then discover you were putting the files in the wrong place.
15:50 elmex has joined #perl6
15:51 theorbtwo Well, something is causing it not to boot normally, in my experince this normally means that it didn't fsck and mount -a OK.
15:51 elmex has quit IRC (Client Quit)
15:51 theorbtwo (As other errors will normally get ignored.)
15:51 Corion Ah, likely the problem with the todo tests is either with the perl script or with harness - the test output still has TODO: in front of it :)
15:51 Juerd theorbtwo: Then boot manually instead of with init scripts, and find out what's wrong
15:51 Corion theorbtwo: Yeah, except that I just did a recovery boot+fsck
15:52 Juerd theorbtwo: Put "init=/bin/sh" in your kernel command line.
15:52 theorbtwo Exactly.
15:52 theorbtwo Juerd, I know.
15:52 Corion ... but maybe the box comes up soonish, or I'll have to do another reboot and go in in recovery mode again, to get a better hint :)
15:52 theorbtwo I'm currently trying for psychic debugging just for the hell of it.
15:52 Juerd theorbtwo: Though skipping fsck shouldn't mess things up that much.
15:52 Juerd Unless it is RH/FC :P
15:52 Corion Juerd: But skipping fsck makes things take a lot of time - and I don't know if fsck is waiting for input :)
15:53 theorbtwo The only way to fix a RH system is to install Debian over top of it.
15:53 Corion BTW, the Y operator now seems to work - I get 2 unexpected successes in all that red :)
15:53 Juerd If it's a headless box, you should configure fsck to not wait for input :)
15:53 Juerd theorbtwo++
15:53 Corion theorbtwo: I'm considering doing that with Debian over SuSE now, but as all the data is still available, I'm reluctant
15:53 Corion Juerd: Even then, the reboot/fsck will take a lot of time without feedback
15:54 Juerd More time than not running it
15:54 Juerd But in my experience, never more than 5..10 minutes
15:54 Juerd Unless you forgot to enable DMA before fsck runs
15:54 Juerd In which case it can easily take an hour.
15:54 Corion ... I need a unicode keyboard, to properly enter ¥
15:55 Juerd Corion: In vim, ^KYe
15:55 Corion Juerd: I'm impatient
15:55 theorbtwo Most modern kernels go to DMA mood straight out of boot.
15:55 Corion Juerd: I don't use vim :)
15:55 mauke compose = Y
15:55 Juerd Corion: Then I don't care anyway :P
15:55 mauke you need a compose key
15:55 theorbtwo Try altgr-shift-z on an xfree86 german keymap.
15:56 Corion theorbtwo: Neither altgr-shift-z nor altgr-shift-y work, but maybe I need newer keyboard drivers. Oh. You say xf86 - I use Win2k :)
15:56 theorbtwo I need to figure out how to get my 102nd key to work as compose.
15:56 theorbtwo (I use a German keyboard with an American layout.)
15:57 mauke theorbtwo: me too :-)
15:57 theorbtwo (American keyboards don't have the key to the right of the left shift, so it's not mapped to anything useful.)
15:57 Juerd theorbtwo: X? With xev, find out its key code, then run xmodmap -e 'keysym 123 = Multi_Key'
15:57 mauke theorbtwo: it's mapped to « » ¦ here
15:57 mauke U+00AB: LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK [«]; U+00BB: RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK [»]; U+00A6: BROKEN BAR [¦]
15:57 Juerd Broken bar?
15:58 Juerd Are you living in 2003? Infix zip is Yen now ;)
15:58 Juerd What would you need a broken bar for?
15:58 mauke it looks almost right :-)
15:58 theorbtwo xmodmap:  commandline:0:  bad keysym name 'Multi_Key' in keysym list
15:59 mauke the normal usage of that key is < > |
15:59 theorbtwo It is on a german keyboard; on a british keyboard it's \ and broken bar.
15:59 ingy morning
16:00 Juerd theorbtwo: Then it's Multi_key or multi_Key
16:00 Juerd theorbtwo: I recall there being something funny with the caps
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16:00 Juerd And if it's neither of those, then s/keysym/keycode/
16:00 mauke I use the "context menu" key as compose key
16:00 theorbtwo Hm, that had no apparent effect, but didn't give an error message either.
16:00 Juerd theorbtwo: Now try to use it.
16:00 theorbtwo mauke, I don't have one of those -- I have a pure 102 layout.
16:01 theorbtwo I did -- I get <, or > when shifted.
16:01 Juerd theorbtwo: <multi> <a> <e> should yield æ
16:01 theorbtwo I just get "<ae".
16:01 Juerd Did you use the right key code?
16:01 Juerd And try keycode, instead of keysym. I never know the difference
16:01 jabbot pugs - 2480 - The yen/Y/zip operator works now as yen
16:02 Juerd It works as itself?
16:02 theorbtwo Oooh, that worked.
16:02 Juerd theorbtwo: Show us.
16:02 theorbtwo xmodmap -e 'keycode 94 = Multi_key'
16:02 theorbtwo compose,a,e=æ
16:02 theorbtwo (I'm UTF-8.)
16:02 Juerd pretty. Now switch to iso-8859-1 so I can read it.
16:02 Juerd :P
16:03 Juerd In a few years I'll be migrating to utf-8
16:03 Juerd When hopefully, screen will play that game too
16:03 theorbtwo No, you switch to utf8.  Then you can read hebrew, chinese, and all sorts of other strange languages that you can't understand, but can go "oooh, pretty".
16:03 theorbtwo Also, it has useful characters like €.
16:04 Juerd I don't care about hebrew and chinese
16:04 broquaint has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:04 Juerd Cyrillic characters are often not written in utf-8, so that's not fixed by that either
16:04 Juerd And Esperanto people use ASCII nowadays
16:04 Juerd g-with-circumflex is gx.
16:04 theorbtwo Not for me it isn't.
16:04 machack666 theorbtwo: useful characters like a-hat not-equals carriage-return? ;D
16:04 autrijus well, in order to talk sensibly about perl 6
16:05 Juerd theorbtwo: It is.
16:05 autrijus this has to be a utf8 channel to reduce confusion for all parties involved :)
16:05 Juerd theorbtwo: You have to mentally transliterate it, which comes naturally after a few minutes of Esperanto chatting.
16:05 theorbtwo No, like the euro currency symbol, which is not in iso-8859-1.
16:05 kungfuftr theorbtwo: iso-8859-15 iirc
16:05 integral migrate to iso-8559-15 then :-)
16:05 Juerd Who cares? The official symbol is EUR anyway.
16:05 theorbtwo (It is in iso-8859-15, but if you're going to switch from 1 to 15, you might as well switch all the way to utf8 and be done with it.)
16:06 Juerd The E thing is a logo, not a symbol. It has strict specifications for the angle of serifs, for crying out loud.
16:06 Juerd Well, not serifs, but the line endings.
16:06 mauke ... which everyone ignores, it seems
16:06 Juerd It's not just a C with an = through it.
16:06 Juerd mauke: Most fonts do it right.
16:06 theorbtwo IIRC, it did only for a very short time.
16:07 Juerd theorbtwo: Switching to -15 is much easier.
16:07 theorbtwo I know.
16:07 Juerd If I want to switch to utf-8 I have to (HAVE TO) migrate all boxes with it.
16:07 Juerd And I have to give up being able to access things like my e-mail from any console I happen to find.
16:07 Juerd Which is too much to ask.
16:08 Juerd I use screen with alway-open programs in it.
16:08 Juerd I don't want to restart everything each time I connect.
16:08 integral hmm, pity screen can't reencode from utf-8 to iso-8859-15
16:11 autrijus sure can
16:11 autrijus ^A:encoding utf8 iso-8859-15
16:11 autrijus ^A:encoding iso-8859-15 utf8
16:11 autrijus for the other way
16:11 * Juerd is going for another test drive
16:11 Juerd Hopefully, the roads are a bit less busy now
16:11 Juerd Stupid traffic jams.
16:11 machack666 Juerd: is your name pronounced like "Word"?
16:11 Juerd machack666: No. I'd write it like that then.
16:12 Juerd afk
16:13 mauke huhu, someone in EFnet/#perl was trying to read an @array with while ($line = <@array>)
16:13 mauke it almost works
16:14 machack666 autrijus: is Eval.hs where the AST gets "executed"?
16:14 autrijus machack666: yes
16:15 machack666 so if I need to trigger block-level actions at runtime, I would need to add code there?
16:15 autrijus most possibly yes
16:15 machack666 and if something is done at compile-time, it would (could?) go into Parser.hs?
16:16 machack666 i.e., attqaching the traits to the appropriate block-object
16:17 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
16:17 autrijus yes.
16:18 stevan has joined #perl6
16:18 theorbtwo Uh-oh.  I can no longer use the key between 5 and 7 on the top row of the main section of my keyboard.
16:18 zuulvin_ is now known as mila
16:19 theorbtwo Restarting X, BBIAB.
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16:21 jabbot pugs - 2481 - * limit PUGS_RELEASE scope for release t
16:22 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
16:25 machack666 bbl
16:25 machack666 has left
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16:27 Corion Grrr. I guess it was an unloaded network card module... Grrrreat.
16:28 Corion (I wonder how the datacenter set up the machine :) )
16:28 Corion Maybe via serial console :)
16:31 jabbot pugs - 2482 - Small cleanup of Test::proclaim.
16:31 jabbot pugs - 2483 - * EOLs at EOFs
16:31 jabbot pugs - 2484 - * Beginning work of MonadEval class
16:31 jabbot pugs - 2485 - * Eliminated explicitly passing env arou
16:32 Corion Yippie...
16:36 ingy Juerd: ping
16:37 ingy Juerd: ot. is there a way in irsii to jump to the window with the most recent activity
16:37 Corion Happyness is a machine reachable over the network.
16:38 ingy Corion: actually Happyness is merely a mispelled locution
16:38 ingy as is mispelled ;)
16:43 lhooq has joined #perl6
16:44 Corion r2479 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - 867/3781
16:45 Corion changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (867/3781, r2479), Mac OS X (62/4506, r2362), Linux (38/4508, 2381) | pugs.kwiki.org
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17:02 obra autrijus?
17:02 obra What the hell changed in the last 12 hours with pugs?
17:02 autrijus hi. schwern made all our :todo fail.
17:02 autrijus or rather, all the force_todo fail
17:03 autrijus so you should see red.
17:03 autrijus don't panic :)
17:03 autrijus "env PUGS_RELEASE=1 make smoke"
17:03 autrijus will give the original green one.
17:03 Corion ah ;)
17:03 obra no. I mean it smoked 30% faster
17:03 autrijus obra: oh. yeah. I rewrote the monad
17:03 obra :)
17:03 obra autrijus++
17:03 Corion I found the all-green version better, so I knew when I broke something important :)
17:04 autrijus we are now in a six story monad
17:04 autrijus EvalT ContT ReaderT SIO (STM/IO) a
17:04 ingy I am using '1 * foo' to force foo() into scalar context in a numeric situation (in perl 5)
17:05 ingy anyone think of other clever ways
17:05 mauke 0 + foo
17:05 Corion ingy: ~~ foo
17:05 ingy well that's about the same
17:05 autrijus yeah, ~~foo
17:05 obra changes topic to: pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | smoke/win2k (occasional): http://xrl.us/fqum (867/3781, r2479), Mac OS X (62/4506, r2362), Linux (164/4642, 2484) | pugs.kwiki.org
17:05 Corion ~~ is the scalar context operator in Perl5
17:05 ingy ok nice
17:06 Corion (like its long-word equivalent, "scalar", but with different binding)
17:06 Corion :-))
17:06 ingy it would be cool if +foo worked
17:06 Corion ... but that will maybe nummify your return value. Especially nasty with overloaded return values.
17:06 Corion So "scalar" might be your best bet unless you go for obfuscation :-)
17:07 Corion Oh - you're talking about "numeric situation" already. So ~~ it is.
17:07 mauke ~~foo doesn't numify
17:07 Corion mauke: Hmmm - true. Strings have xor too.
17:07 theorbtwo ~~ either nummifies or stringifies.
17:07 theorbtwo (It never returns a ref.)
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17:11 jabbot pugs - 2486 - * $?CALLER::POSITION repaired
17:12 Odin-LAP mummifies!
17:12 Odin-LAP :D
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17:12 ingy mauke: I numify in foo, so it's ok by me
17:13 ingy thanks folksies
17:17 Corion ... and I thought that this was not the channel for Perl5 questions ...
17:17 masak has quit IRC ("masak has no reason")
17:17 Ontolog does Pugs really need GHC 6.4? Won't it run with 6.2? (thats the latest version for Gentoo)
17:18 Corion Ontolog: Compile from source then.
17:18 Corion Bwahahahahahahahahhahahaha.
17:18 Ontolog shove it!
17:19 Corion Ontolog: The reason for 6.4 is Template Haskell and lots of #ifdefs I think
17:19 mauke Corion: huhu, still compiling
17:19 Ontolog why does Haskell gotta be such a hassel?
17:19 Corion mauke: I thought Gentoo was really fast, because it's optimized exactly for your machine?
17:19 mauke I don't run gentoo
17:20 mauke the binary release doesn't work because it requires glibc 2.3
17:20 mauke I can't compile glibc 2.3 because of a parse error in pthread.h (wtf)
17:21 mauke I think I need a new computer
17:21 Corion I luckily got around needing to reinstall a box.
17:21 * Qiang looks at the P166 machine in the corner
17:21 jabbot pugs - 2487 - * #line tests largely passes now.
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17:42 castaway Ontolog: gentoo has 6.4 too
17:43 castaway you need to fc it some tho
17:43 Ontolog castaway: how do I unmask it?
17:43 castaway force
17:43 castaway lemme look, sec
17:43 castaway /etc/portage/package.unmask: >=dev-lang/ghc-6.3
17:44 Ontolog ahh
17:44 Ontolog thanks
17:44 castaway it's probably easier if you install ghc-bin normally, then 6.4
17:44 Ontolog i have ghc-bin 6.2 installed now
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17:52 jabbot pugs - 2488 - * move callCC back into MonadCont
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18:16 paddyez hi
18:17 paddyez is there a good document on the history of Pugs?
18:17 obra yes
18:17 obra http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal
18:17 obra basically, daily updates from the very first day
18:18 paddyez mkay I was thinking on sothing more compact
18:18 obra well, it's only 3 months old
18:18 paddyez a summary would do
18:19 obra Autrijus Tang has been leading a team of hackers to implement perl6 in Haskell.
18:19 obra ;)
18:19 paddyez " I caught some bad cold today, but still managed to start going through the failing tests, reducing them to a more manageable number." it starts with the weateher
18:19 obra http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal/22965
18:19 obra that's the first entry
18:21 autrijus paddyez: PA01 is the summary.
18:21 autrijus see pugscode.org, click on "Overview" :)
18:21 autrijus if you want concise history, read the ChangeLog file.
18:21 jabbot pugs - 2489 - * somehow sort VComplex.
18:22 paddyez thanx a lot all
18:22 autrijus np :)
18:23 autrijus paddyez: hm, maybe you can help improve the Wikipedia Pugs entry
18:23 autrijus while you're figuring the history out :)
18:24 paddyez yes that is what I am trying to do
18:24 paddyez but in the german language though
18:24 autrijus ah. I see the .de one is much better than .en
18:24 autrijus hm, how come the .de is not backlinked to .en?
18:25 paddyez well it is from today
18:25 paddyez I am doing a complete rewrite on http://www.wikiweise.de/ a german fork
18:25 autrijus a fork!
18:26 autrijus hm, the search form on wikiweise is borken
18:26 autrijus some tomcat error page
18:26 paddyez it is still buggy
18:26 paddyez the article does not exist yet
18:28 paddyez I am right at it creating the article to schow a friend of mine who is a perl freak how it is donde
18:28 paddyez done
18:30 autrijus btw, I've added interwiki tag
18:30 paddyez great
18:31 autrijus also [[Autrijus Tang]] :D
18:31 autrijus oh, duh, it's de.
18:32 autrijus never mind :)
18:34 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
18:35 paddyez *ggg*
18:35 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
18:50 autrijus journal up. see you tomorrow!
18:50 autrijus &
18:50 castaway night autrijus
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19:01 jabbot pugs - 2490 - * remove "import List" from AST.hs
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19:19 Corion Hmmm. Defaulting to $_ is broken... Or at least, it consistently doesn't work for abs.t and int.t (which I'm about to commit :) )
19:24 Corion ... a non-pointy for loop doesn't seem to set $_ currently...
19:24 theorbtwo Add a test to t/statements/for ?
19:24 Juerd ingy: Yes, meta-a
19:24 Corion theorbtwo: I'm about to, resp. also looking into the problem ;)
19:24 Corion Gah :( And I also committed my trace()-ridden test-build of Pugs - sorry ...
19:25 castaway roll it back?
19:25 Corion svn revert++
19:25 Juerd ARGH
19:25 Juerd IBM puts "quality seals" on hardware boxes
19:26 Juerd And I test hardware before going to clients
19:26 Juerd The most recent quality seals leave a pattern of words on the box
19:26 Juerd "VOID VOID VOID VOID"
19:26 theorbtwo Ugh.
19:26 Juerd That's not a nice thing to give your client :|
19:26 theorbtwo WD-40?
19:26 Juerd Now I have to re-box things.
19:27 Juerd I still love IBM though.
19:27 Juerd Don't get me wrong.
19:28 Corion Hmmm. Seems like I'm too dumb to revert my changes by checking out an older version. So I'll undo my changes locally and then recommit.
19:28 * Juerd just built a new floor in his... what's the word for the big empty space behind the back seats of a car?
19:28 castaway depends which language ,)
19:28 castaway boot
19:28 Juerd I made it out of polystyrene and hard board :)
19:28 theorbtwo Trunk.
19:28 Juerd castaway: I know that, and was hoping for a fight ;)
19:29 castaway (a trunk is a big chest to put clothers and things in ,)
19:29 * castaway grins
19:29 Juerd Ah, right, those were the words.
19:29 theorbtwo Right.  In order to transport them, for example.
19:29 Juerd I have an LPG tank instead of the spare wheel now
19:29 Juerd And it's a bit taller than the wheel
19:29 theorbtwo What do you do when you tire goes flat?
19:29 castaway tyre!
19:29 castaway LPG?
19:30 Juerd castaway: Yep
19:30 castaway whats that?
19:30 Juerd theorbtwo: They gave me a can/tin of stuff that inflates and fixes/mends the tyre
19:30 Juerd castaway: Yep is to mean "yes"
19:30 castaway Grr.
19:30 castaway What is "LPG" ?
19:30 Juerd You brought that up, I thought you'd know what it was :)
19:31 Juerd It's a fuel
19:31 castaway Thank you
19:31 Juerd Liquid gas
19:31 chady has joined #perl6
19:31 Juerd Liquid when under enough pressure
19:31 castaway sounds like a contradiction in terms ;)
19:31 theorbtwo http://en.wikipedia.org/wi​ki/Liquified_petroleum_gas
19:31 Juerd And new LPG injection systems never vapourize it, so it stays liquid all the time. So "gas" isn't exactly correct anymore.
19:32 jabbot pugs - 2491 - Added test for default argument of int()
19:32 jabbot pugs - 2492 - Move int.t below builtins/math, revert d
19:32 jabbot pugs - 2493 - Backed out tracing in Prim.hs
19:32 castaway 2ein gut'un
19:32 Juerd What is "2ein gut'un"?
19:32 castaway (oops)
19:32 castaway a typo ;)
19:32 Juerd Is it valid intercal?
19:32 castaway ;)
19:32 masak :)
19:33 theorbtwo Juerd, "gas" never referred to the third state of matter; it's short for "gasoline".
19:33 Juerd theorbtwo: I know, but the current most common word for it is gas.
19:34 Juerd Regardless of how the words became 'gas', both LPG and gasoline are called gas, and they're both liquid :)
19:34 castaway (if you like, think away the 2, and translate from german)
19:34 Juerd castaway: What is 'un?
19:34 castaway silly ammis ;)
19:34 Juerd What is ammis?
19:34 castaway its a written rendition of a spoken word/sound
19:35 castaway americans
19:35 * Juerd finds it funny by the way that people outside western europe all ask me what LPG is.
19:35 Juerd This way you'll never satisfy kyoto :)
19:35 castaway do they?
19:35 Juerd Many, many do.
19:35 * castaway shrugs
19:37 Juerd Anyway, I now drive cleaner and cheaper
19:38 Juerd And I always wonder why not many more people do this
19:38 osfameron has joined #perl6
19:38 castaway grats
19:38 Juerd I'm sorry I keep asking you, but what is a grat?
19:39 Juerd (You speak some kind of non-technical english that I don't understand! :))
19:39 castaway its short for "congratulations"
19:39 Juerd Oh - I knew the "congrats" abbrev.
19:39 Juerd Thanks anyway :)
19:39 castaway :)
19:39 castaway learning++
19:39 Corion Hmmm - I think I see the problem ... the "implicit topic" $_ is passed in as a subroutine parameter to the for-loop-code-block, but there isn't seen as the global $_ ...
19:40 Juerd Corion: Big mistake there!
19:40 Juerd Corion: $_ is lexical in Perl 6!
19:40 Corion Juerd: Yes, but I think the lookup is done wrong
19:40 Juerd Not dynamically global as in Perl 5
19:41 Corion Hmmm - I could write a test against that, actually.
19:41 Corion Set $_ to something, and check what value it has in $_ = "Hello World"; for "Goodbye World" { say $_ }; # should be "Goodbye World"
19:41 jabbot pugs - 2494 - Test for implicit loop topic (re)used as
19:41 jabbot pugs - 2495 - Made Pugs.Compile.Parrot mostly work aga
19:42 Corion Err - { say } # of course - I need to check defaulting.
19:42 Juerd If you do this, put in a test for say for "Goodbye World" too
19:42 Corion Hah. And it outputs "Hello World"
19:42 Juerd As that's even more likely to go wrong
19:43 Corion Juerd: I don't get you?
19:43 Juerd say for "g w"; should also say "g w"
19:44 Juerd And after that, $_ should be back to what it was before the for-statement
19:44 Corion Ah - yes
19:44 Juerd This is scoping without { } and thus a special case
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19:49 Corion Juerd: Thanks for the hints - they hopefully made the test clearer... Now, if I could find out where that stuff is actually implemented ... :)
19:51 jabbot pugs - 2496 - Changed test for checking for lexical $_
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19:54 gaal aloo!
19:56 theorbtwo Allo, gaal.
19:57 Corion gaal!
19:58 gaal how're things? :)
19:58 * gaal backlogs
19:58 theorbtwo Things are going slowly, but progressing, for me.
19:59 gaal still haddocking, or the other stuff?
19:59 theorbtwo still haddocking.
19:59 theorbtwo It doesn't like TH or GADTs.
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20:00 gaal if i were in its place, i wonder how i'd react to them!
20:00 * castaway pokes HTML+CSS
20:01 theorbtwo Eh.
20:02 theorbtwo It should make use of ghc, rather then being a copy-and-paste-then-edit fork of it.
20:03 * gaal is curious, taking a look at this haddock thing now
20:03 masak is haddock really sufficient for newbies?
20:03 Corion Hmmm. Where do the magical default variables (*_) come into play? In Parser.hs, I don't see them fudged in ...
20:03 masak feels like some external documentation would be good, too
20:03 theorbtwo http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/​latest/html/libraries/index.html is straight out of haddock.
20:04 broquaint has joined #perl6
20:05 castaway bro!
20:05 theorbtwo masak: Certianly would be.
20:05 theorbtwo But starting somewhere is good.
20:05 gaal Corion: see AST.hs:1184
20:05 masak theorbtwo: true
20:06 gaal (i think)
20:06 Corion gaal: That's right at the EOF for me ... Do you mean Typeable1 ?
20:06 gaal sorry, 667 - defaultScalarPAram
20:07 gaal no, scratch that
20:07 gaal it's not used anywhere. no idea then :)
20:07 * Limbic_Region pokes his head in
20:08 * Limbic_Region looks up to see that between work for $ and an article he hopes to get published @perl.com, he hasn't even peeked in to see what is new and exciting in pugs/p6
20:09 theorbtwo Oooh, nifty, Limbic.
20:09 gaal ah, I think it's called 'topic' in Parser|Eval|Monads
20:09 Corion gaal: I'll poke the stuff there then ;) I exposed a nice global $_ vs. local $_ bug (resp. implicit lexicalisation of $_)
20:10 Corion What I wonder though is, that "for" does not mention any topic :)
20:10 castaway it should
20:11 Limbic_Region stevan ping
20:11 Corion ... yes - I guess that's part of the problem ;-)
20:11 theorbtwo What's the article on?
20:11 Corion ... I just don't know how to tell it that, resp. where a bare block without params specifies that it has one parameter...
20:11 gaal ah, a favorite p5 gotcha area :)
20:11 gaal you know 5.10 has 'my $_', yes?
20:11 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html r2496
20:12 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=451278
20:12 Limbic_Region dragonchild said I should talk to chromatic about publishing it
20:13 Limbic_Region not something I had in mind when I wrote it, but I contacted chromatic anyway
20:13 Corion gaal: Yes, I'm aware of that. There isn't much difference between my $_ and local *_ though, except that "my $_" works in closures :)
20:13 Limbic_Region chromatic said that the code snippets had to be both working and practical before he would consider it
20:14 Corion btw, my smoke test for r2496 is also up
20:14 gaal there was a very long thread and interesting about it on clpm once
20:14 castaway practical snippets++
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20:14 Corion Feh. And I was stupid. I inserted fresh tests into for.t, and didn't push the force_todo numbers ...
20:14 Corion So now we get unexpected successes there :)
20:15 castaway *g*
20:15 stevan Limbic_Region: pong
20:16 Limbic_Region did you see the tests I added for last?
20:16 stevan yes, very nice :)
20:16 Limbic_Region found a bug - which was really cool
20:16 Limbic_Region I also modified next to be in align with last
20:16 gaal wow, i see that in the 6 hours i was gone there was *another* speedup (after the 11% of earlier, the 30% of yesterday, the ~50%(?) of the day before that).
20:16 Limbic_Region but I am not sure I did it right
20:17 stevan Limbic_Region: they are hard tests to wrap your head around
20:17 Limbic_Region before the force todo patch - I was under the impression that all tests marked as :todo wouldn't report as failures
20:17 Limbic_Region but when I run pugs t/statements/next.t - it told me there was 1 failure
20:17 stevan it takes time and patience (and I had neither, hence i commited the minimal tests)
20:17 Limbic_Region I am still not sure next.t is right
20:18 Limbic_Region but my pugs debugging fu is non-existant
20:18 Limbic_Region so.... if you get a chance you might want to look at it ;-)
20:18 theorbtwo Oh, a nit that isn't mentioned in the replies -- under "what is an iterator", a filehandle isn't an iterator, but the readline operator is -- <$handle> in scalar context, not $handle.
20:18 Limbic_Region thanks theorbtwo - will change right away
20:18 stevan Limbic_Region: I will try
20:18 Juerd Hmm?
20:19 Juerd theorbtwo: That would mean that Higher Order Perl uses the wrong terminology throughout the book
20:19 stevan Limbic_Region: I think the force_todo patch Schwern did may need some re-thinking
20:19 Juerd theorbtwo: Something I find hard to accept, because MJD is a hero/god.
20:19 theorbtwo Juerd, how do you pronounce your name?
20:19 stevan it is too strict
20:19 Juerd theorbtwo: As Juerd
20:19 stevan LOL
20:19 theorbtwo Um, thanks.
20:19 Juerd theorbtwo: See juerd.nl/name or perlmonks.org/?node=Juerd
20:19 Juerd Or both
20:19 Juerd I'm not into sound samples though
20:19 qmole that's a popular question today :)
20:20 Juerd So you'll have to know what the german u-umlaut sounds like (or the french u in une)
20:20 Limbic_Region stevan - I don't expect to be around much this weekend, but if you need anything next week let me know
20:21 Limbic_Region I should also check to see if ingy applied the Perl6::Bible patch I sent him
20:21 Juerd theorbtwo: Is this satisfactory?
20:22 stevan Limbic_Region: my pugs-time is pretty limited lately, my $work is getting in the way :)
20:22 theorbtwo I think so, yes.
20:23 Limbic_Region stevan - me too since my free time is non-existant (closed on the new house this past Wednesday)
20:24 Limbic_Region ok, so ingy didn't apply the patch I sent him but he didn't not apply it either
20:24 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.2/20050317]")
20:24 Limbic_Region I could have swore he said he would be releasing last night
20:24 castaway heh?
20:24 Limbic_Region oh well
20:24 theorbtwo It's some sort of strange heisenburgianpatch?
20:25 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - yep, until ingy uploads the next revision for everyone to see (opens the box) - the patch is neither applied nor not applied
20:25 castaway *g*
20:25 Limbic_Region ok, so talked to stevan and looked at Perl6::Bible - next on the todo list is Jonathan
20:25 theorbtwo You could check the SVN repo.
20:26 Limbic_Region who doesn't appear to be around....
20:26 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - huh?  Wouldn't it have gone to CPAN first?
20:26 castaway you have a todo list full of people?
20:26 Limbic_Region people I needed to talk to - yes
20:26 theorbtwo His wife might get angry if he went around doing people.
20:26 theorbtwo ...and very confused if he went around doing men.
20:27 stevan Its the list of people to "take care of once and for all" I am worried about
20:27 * Limbic_Region chuckles and is reminded of Ovid http://use.perl.org/~delegatrix/journal/24450
20:29 theorbtwo Hm?  Ovid has lots of names, or what?
20:30 Limbic_Region you aren't aware that Ovid recently had his CC # stolen and tracked down the criminals himself?
20:31 theorbtwo Er, right.
20:31 theorbtwo Nevermind.
20:32 theorbtwo I thought stevan's mention of people to take care of once and for all reminded you of ovid, and you meant to link to one of ovid's several entries about it.
20:32 theorbtwo (I read his LJ.)
20:32 Limbic_Region ahhh - well in any case, it is weekend so I am off
20:32 Limbic_Region TTFN all
20:32 theorbtwo Later, Limbic!
20:32 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("woohoo")
20:32 theorbtwo Have fun packing.  ;)
20:32 hlen_ has joined #perl6
20:32 * stevan add theorbtwo to his "list" ;)
20:32 theorbtwo Oh, you have a LJ?
20:33 stevan no just a  "list" (muwhahahahahah)
20:33 theorbtwo Yeah, that was a joke.
20:33 stevan :P
20:37 Corion BTW, http://www.kill-them-all.de/ has lots of German punk mp3s (only by Die Ärzte) but it's good (live) punk :)
20:39 theorbtwo (Oooh, I can type Ä without switching keyboard layouts now.)
20:40 theorbtwo Can you suggest a good one for an introduction to the band?
20:41 theorbtwo (compose key)++
20:42 Corion theorbtwo: "Elke"
20:42 Corion Wait - I'll look for some URLs :)
20:43 mauke "es fing an, als sie mich anrief ..."
20:44 Corion http://www.kill-them-all-space2.d​e/bootlegs/dzs2/08istdasalles.mp3 http://www.kill-them-all-space.d​e/bootlegs/dzs1/10elcattivo.mp3 http://www.kill-them-all-space.d​e/bootlegs/dzs1/09wieam1tag.mp3
20:45 Corion mauke: Yeah, I'm just looking for a speed-punk version instead of the one live-funk version I've got here :)
20:45 Corion Wie am 1. Tag isn't bad either
20:46 _metaperl Corion, do you live in Germany?
20:46 castaway ;)
20:46 castaway good question that
20:46 * theorbtwo wgets.
20:46 castaway Is the Pope German?
20:47 stevan Corion is the Pope?
20:47 mauke no, bavarian (huhu)
20:47 Corion stevan: No, I just pull his strings
20:47 castaway good point mauke ,)
20:47 stevan Corion: I knew there was more to you than Haskell and Perl6 :P
20:48 Corion stevan: I want to streamline the process of string-pulling, that's why I need hyper-operators and junctions!
20:50 stevan Corion: ahh, I see, so Pugs is one part of your plan to take over the world
20:50 Corion stevan: Yes. Just in case my flying monkeys fail
20:51 stevan I thought that was what the >>+<< operator was
20:51 stevan a flying monkey
20:51 stevan just very far away
20:52 Corion stevan++ # >>+<< is the flying monkey operator
20:55 castaway HTML is weird! *sigh*
20:56 Juerd No, >>@<< is the flying monkey operator!
20:56 Juerd All we need now is an infix @. Suggestions?
20:57 Juerd (What, we have a \W ASCII character that has no meaning yet? MADNESS!)
20:57 stevan Juerd: it only looks like that when the monkey gets closer
20:57 castaway (hmm, or I'm silly.. )
20:57 castaway this song is kinda boring
20:57 Juerd castaway: HTML is weird AND you're silly. What do you think of this compromise?
20:57 castaway sounds about right
20:59 castaway "Ist das alles" is the entire text?
20:59 Corion Oooo - my favourite song - Madonna's Dickdarm - http://www.kill-them-all-space.de/bootle​gs/bremen09032001/32madonnasdickdarm.mp3
20:59 mauke no, it's the refrain
20:59 Corion castaway: That's the refrain, yes :)
21:00 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
21:00 * stevan has no german speed punk, so he just queues up California Uber Alles
21:01 Corion stevan: See "Madonnas Dickdarm" - there is some talking though, before the guitar hits :)
21:04 taeli has joined #perl6
21:05 osfa has joined #perl6
21:06 Corion Hah. I've found why $_ doesn't get propagated into for blocks. for 1 { say } # doesn't mention $_ within the block, and thus the name never gets propagated to the block-names ... Now, how to fudge this :)
21:06 Corion ( retVerbatimBlock is the offending part, together with ruleBlockLiteral, both in Parser.hs)
21:06 gander has joined #perl6
21:06 Corion I guess a special Block just for ruleBlockLiteral is the first fix ...
21:06 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:07 gander has left "Leaving"
21:10 theorbtwo Woo!
21:10 theorbtwo Grr.
21:10 theorbtwo Well, it was working, then I did an svn up, and now it isn't.
21:10 Juerd Corion: Then the rule has to change, because you can't at compile time know that a sub will or will not access $CALLER::_
21:11 Corion Juerd: Hmm - no, it's not about $CALLER::_, which is fully specified resp. needs padwalking anyway.
21:11 Corion theorbtwo: Maybe I broke some line endings at the end of Prim.hs again?
21:11 Juerd Corion: for 1 { $say() }
21:11 Juerd Corion: You can't know whether $say will use $_
21:12 Corion Juerd: Yes, but $say won't see the topical $_, as $_ is lexical
21:12 Juerd Corion: It will if it uses the $_ in CALLER::
21:12 Corion The implicit topicals ( say() ) are now an exception to the rule ...
21:12 Juerd Corion: Which is exactly how defaulting works.
21:12 Corion Juerd: Hmmmmmmmmmm - that's true...
21:12 theorbtwo Nah, up conflicts.  I'll fix them fairly quickly.
21:13 Corion Juerd: That's another thing that needs to be fixed, true... Care to write a test "for" that case too?
21:13 Juerd No, sorry
21:13 Juerd Well, in fact: yes, but I won't
21:14 Juerd I have to minimize coding as much as I can. It's too stressful, time consuming and addictive.
21:14 Juerd (Although not-coding is also frustrating)
21:14 Corion Juerd: Ah ;)
21:14 Corion Oh :(
21:14 Juerd As an example, I MSIE-proofed the design for convolution.nl/nieuw/site.plp
21:14 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:14 Juerd As you can see in its source, it took quite some javascript to kick MSIE in order to do simple PNG things
21:15 Juerd I also had to change the entire CSS based layout for this crappy "browser"
21:15 * castaway cheats by devving in htmlkit, which previews using ie ;)
21:15 Juerd It worked in firefox/mozilla/camino/omniweb, konqueror/safari, opera.
21:15 nothingmuch http://www.ccc.de/biometrie/finge​rabdruck_kopieren.xml?language=en
21:15 Juerd And then I spent over 5 hours making it work with MSIE.
21:16 Juerd castaway: That doesn't fix any of MSIE's problems. I needed the alpha channel of PNGs, which MSIE does not support in <img> tags.
21:16 nothingmuch Juerd: there's a js hack
21:16 Juerd castaway: You have to trick it into using the right library, by using a proprietary css attribute "filter" with the right thing
21:16 castaway oh.. didnt nm just solve domething similar?
21:16 nothingmuch yup
21:17 nothingmuch although it's not quite solved
21:17 Juerd nothingmuch: I didn't know that, but I wrote some JS myself. This was pretty easy.
21:17 nothingmuch it's hacked
21:17 Juerd nothingmuch: It also doesn't quite work on backgrounds
21:17 Corion Huh? Where is "retTopicalizedBlock" defined? I only find it mentioned in Parser.hs ...
21:17 nothingmuch http://woobling.org:81/ <-- view source
21:17 Juerd nothingmuch: So I needed more JS, to handle horizontal repetition...
21:17 nothingmuch oh, i dunno about backgrounds
21:17 * castaway hands Corion a grep -r
21:17 nothingmuch IE sucks so bad
21:17 Juerd But the end result works: http://convolution.nl/nieuw/site.plp
21:18 Juerd nothingmuch: The font is all weird and the page is mirrored! DEFACE! :))
21:18 Corion castaway: I use Win32 find-in-files, which doesn't find it below src/ - which is why I'm asking :)
21:18 theorbtwo Corion: These guys talk a lot, but sound like they'd be good not-live.
21:18 nothingmuch yeah, some idiot made it all hebrew ;-)
21:18 nothingmuch holy crap! your site is also gibberish
21:18 Juerd nothingmuch: http://woobling.org:81/pngfix.js
21:19 nothingmuch htdocs/pngfix.js
21:19 nothingmuch sorry
21:19 Juerd nothingmuch: That's some weird display, I expected plain text. Nice!
21:19 nothingmuch thank catalyst
21:19 * castaway doesnt find it anywhere at all ;)
21:19 nothingmuch that's what 'die' looks like
21:19 Juerd Thank you, catalyst
21:19 nothingmuch http://woobling.org:81/htdocs/pngfix.js
21:19 Juerd nothingmuch: Your JS does more or less the same as mine, but in a more complex way
21:19 * nothingmuch updates the template
21:19 nothingmuch it's not my js
21:20 nothingmuch i'm just using it
21:20 nothingmuch =)
21:20 Juerd nothingmuch: I just abuse a 1x1 transparent pixel GIF
21:20 Juerd nothingmuch: So I don't have to create a new object with equal size
21:20 Juerd nothingmuch: See my code
21:20 nothingmuch ah
21:20 nothingmuch i won't know what it does
21:21 nothingmuch i don't really know what mine does either
21:21 nothingmuch just that it loads the png in a different way
21:21 Juerd Mine just adds the filter and changes the image to something transparent
21:21 Juerd That's all
21:21 Juerd And it does so for all images, not only PNGs. I'm currently not using any other images anyway.
21:21 Juerd The repetition code sucks though
21:22 nothingmuch browsers suck
21:22 Juerd And when I was done, I realised I wrote a lot of code for just three images :)
21:22 Juerd    var xtotal = 785;
21:22 Juerd    var xwidth = 273;
21:22 Juerd That's 3 tiles only :)
21:22 Juerd Just writing the HTML manually would have been easier probably
21:22 Juerd But I didn't think of that at the time.
21:23 * nothingmuch would normally wait for ie7 to come out
21:23 nothingmuch but this site is not mine
21:23 nothingmuch =)
21:23 Juerd When it's out, it'll take at least a year before most people actually use it.
21:24 Juerd It's easier to force them to use a better browser
21:24 theorbtwo IIRC, MS has stated that there won't be an upgrade option other then buying a new OS that has it.
21:24 nothingmuch be
21:24 Juerd However, this is a commercial site and I wouldn't want to lose potential customers at the very first stage.
21:24 nothingmuch it's easier to not develop web content
21:25 theorbtwo Or not use non-binary PNG transparency, at least.
21:25 Juerd One thing I hate about MSIE is that it requests my transparent 1x1 pixel GIF file *six times* per page.
21:25 Juerd Because it is used 6 times.
21:25 Juerd MORONS
21:25 theorbtwo Though it should be noted that maps.google.com uses it heavily.
21:25 nothingmuch haha
21:26 theorbtwo Juerd: Get your webserver to send an expires header with it.
21:26 Juerd theorbtwo: Google managed to forget most of our planet.
21:26 theorbtwo I don't think they forgot about it so much as haven't gotten around to it yet.
21:27 Juerd theorbtwo: It *does*
21:27 castaway germany is next
21:27 Juerd theorbtwo: It's a static file...
21:27 theorbtwo Oh.  OK, that's kind of scary then.
21:27 castaway supposing they can find an advertising partber ;)
21:27 Juerd I'm thinking about including it in the JS source
21:28 theorbtwo Corion, you still here?
21:28 theorbtwo Does the PM CSS caching hack work with IE?
21:28 Corion yep (I close Chatzilla when I'm away)
21:28 Corion uh ... dunno, should, but I didn't test it I think
21:41 Corion Hmmm. Seems like I'm getting nowhere tonight with my hacking on Parser.hs ... Have a good night all!
21:41 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
21:42 sahadev has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:43 carrumba has joined #perl6
21:44 theorbtwo To play with haddockability, try find src -name \*.hs|perl -pe 's/hs$/hpp/'|xargs make && haddock `find src -name \*.hpp` (after getting r2497).
21:51 Ontolog has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:51 jabbot pugs - 2497 - We have haddockability!  (There's not ye
21:51 sahadev has joined #perl6
21:53 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:53 Guest41009 has joined #perl6
21:53 theorbtwo Oh, fuck, I broke the build I bet.
21:53 Guest41009 anyone got mac os i can ftp
21:54 Guest41009 ?
21:54 theorbtwo Guest41009: Do we know you?
21:54 Guest41009 lol
21:54 Guest41009 i dont think so
21:54 pjcj src/Pugs/Help.hs:52:13: Not in scope: data constructor `PUGS_VERSION'
21:54 pjcj known problem?
21:54 castaway apple have one
21:55 Guest41009 anyone have a mac os x i can ftp or p2p fomr them
21:55 castaway http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_S​upport_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/Eng​lish-North_American/Macintosh/System/O​lder_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/
21:55 theorbtwo This isn't the place to be asking, Guest41009.
22:00 osfa obPerl6: $macosxwarez.(any('ftp', 'p2p'))
22:00 osfa gah, dunno the right syntax
22:00 Guest41009 e
22:01 Guest41009 lol
22:01 theorbtwo given $macosxwarez {any($_.ftp, $_.p2p) }
22:01 Guest41009 anyone
22:01 Guest41009 got mac os i can ftp?
22:01 jabbot pugs - 2498 - Whoops, broke the build!
22:01 jabbot pugs - 2499 - More fixes for my stupidity -- this shou
22:02 Guest41009 anyone
22:02 Guest41009 got mac os x i can ftp
22:02 osfa noone has ops here?
22:02 pjcj Guest41009: do you know this channel is logged?
22:02 Guest41009 no
22:02 Guest41009 whats logged
22:02 pjcj now you do
22:02 Guest41009 whats logged
22:03 Guest41009 has left
22:03 * hattmoward coughs
22:03 pjcj who needs ops?  ;-)
22:03 * castaway laughs
22:03 theorbtwo Well done, pjcj.
22:03 osfa theorbtwo: wouldn't that call both methods and return the values?
22:03 osfa You'd want it to call either method whichever was available?
22:04 theorbtwo Hm, g'point.
22:06 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:07 Limbic_Region this is what happens when you drive on the wrong side of the road http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/e​ngland/hampshire/4493713.stm
22:08 * castaway pokes Limbic
22:09 * Limbic_Region hopes castaway doesn't poke too hard as he just finished eating dinner
22:16 * theorbtwo hopes he didn't break the build.
22:16 theorbtwo src/Pugs/Parser.hs:940:4:    The last statement in a 'do' construct must be an expression
22:16 osfameron has joined #perl6
22:16 theorbtwo (I changed a line there, but only the formatting of a comment.
22:17 theorbtwo Anyway, goodnight, all.
22:17 osfa has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:21 masak has quit IRC ("masak has no reason")
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22:32 castaway_ has joined #perl6
22:37 taeli has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
22:38 taeli has joined #perl6
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22:44 pjcj does anyone fancy applying http://pjcj.sytes.net/tmp/pugs.patch?
22:44 pjcj or just making the change
22:44 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:51 pjcj And here's another, if any committers are around:
22:51 pjcj http://pjcj.sytes.net/tmp/pugs2.patch
22:51 pjcj those two get the build going again
22:51 Limbic_Region pjcj - do they fix the build on Win32?
22:52 pjcj no idea, but I doubt they harm it
22:52 Limbic_Region I was just doing a fresh checkout after theorbtwo b0rk stuff and went to sleep
22:52 Limbic_Region well, I would be happy to check them in for you but I am afraid to with my local build being b0rk
22:53 * Limbic_Region blames theorbtwo
22:53 pjcj no problem - they're both trivial anyway
22:55 ingy Limbic_Region: I forget, did you email me the patch?
22:56 ingy Limbic_Region: maybe resend to [email@hidden.address]
22:56 Limbic_Region you are kidding right?
22:56 Limbic_Region you told me to nopaste it
22:56 Limbic_Region so after I did it went into the ether
22:56 ingy right sorry
22:57 revdiablo pjcj: I can check them in if nobody else does.
22:57 Limbic_Region just kidding
22:57 * Limbic_Region will regen
22:57 ingy very funny
22:57 * revdiablo tries building
22:57 ingy you scared me
22:57 Limbic_Region well - the patch itself did go into the either
22:57 pjcj revdiablo: thanks
22:57 Limbic_Region but I still have the modified file
22:57 ingy ok, I'm stepping out for a sec
22:58 ingy I'll apply it as soon as i get back online
22:58 * Limbic_Region emails it and then nopastes it
22:58 ingy my friend rking wrote WebService::NoPaste
22:59 revdiablo pjcj: ok, it built, I'll commit
22:59 ingy diff -u foo bar | nopaste url
23:00 ingy returns pasted url
23:00 ingy anyway I must eat now...
23:00 ingy laters
23:00 revdiablo pjcj: should be good now
23:00 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
23:00 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
23:00 carrumba has quit IRC ()
23:01 Limbic_Region ingy - I forgot the -u option on the email
23:01 Limbic_Region but I will do it correctly in the nopaste
23:01 hlen_ has quit IRC ("use vim")
23:01 jabbot pugs - 2500 - apply patches from pjcj to fix build
23:02 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 69.250.48.119 pasted "Perl6::Bible patch for ingy" (53 lines, 1.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/9779
23:02 theorb has joined #perl6
23:02 pjcj revdiablo: thanks again
23:02 * Limbic_Region kicks theorbtwo for breaking the build
23:02 * Limbic_Region then heads off to watch jeopardy
23:02 revdiablo pjcj: btw, they hand out commit access very liberally around here. you'd just need to find an admin to send you the invite...
23:03 theorb Eeep.
23:03 theorb I'm an admin.
23:03 theorb Email
23:03 theorb Er, Email?
23:04 pjcj if I get a bit of time to hack on things I'll take the comitter bit, for now it doesn't seem worthwhile
23:05 pjcj I'm hoping autrijus' latest Eval stuff will let me add coverage support
23:05 pjcj but I know autrijus had a few ideas about that a while back
23:08 broquaint has joined #perl6
23:09 theorb pjcj, thanks for fixing the build.
23:09 pjcj no problem - I wanted to see how much faster things were ;-)
23:12 Limbic_Region theorb - the email comment was meant for ingy not you
23:12 * Limbic_Region wanders back off for the last hal
23:13 theorb No, L~R, I was asking for pjcj's email addr to +&=COMMITTER him.
23:19 taeli has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:28 Limbic_Region oh
23:28 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
23:32 pjcj no problem - I wanted to see how much faster things were ;-)
23:32 pjcj qpalzm
23:33 pjcj hmmm - that went to the wrong window ;-)
23:47 SamB has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:57 Juerd theorb++  # +&=COMMITTER
23:57 Juerd perl6++  # making irc much more efficient :)
23:58 theorb Don't ++ me too easy; I meant +|=
23:58 Shillo has joined #perl6
23:58 Juerd Oh, you weren't going to make him committer-only?
23:58 Shillo Hullo, all. :)

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