Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-05-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:54 * cm does the camel thing
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05:27 nothingmuch_ *yawn*
05:27 gaal Morning _
05:29 nothingmuch_ hola
05:30 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
05:30 nothingmuch what's up with ::Model?
05:31 machack666 hey, is it clever or kludgy to implement some of pugs' features in perl?
05:31 gaal nothing is, i said i won't be working on it $last_night.
05:31 gaal machack666: if it's perl6, it's all good
05:32 gaal i started doing that for various forms of open
05:32 gaal but defered that since there's so much disagreement about it
05:32 machack666 do you just give a string to the Eval monad?
05:33 machack666 disagreement about p6 code, or about the various forms of open?
05:33 gaal the latter
05:33 nothingmuch gaal: i mean what is the plan
05:33 nothingmuch . o O ( the surest way to forget that something exists is to put it in a toaster )
05:34 nothingmuch . o O ( the only problem is that something will probably remind you later, and it won't be as pleasant )
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05:34 gaal m6: about whether open should be highly dwimmy like p5, or split to several separate calls like the underlying libs, or somewhere in the middle.
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05:38 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html # where's the global unforcetodo switch now?
05:40 nothingmuch gaal: want to update http://pugs.kwiki.org/?SmokedPugs with that URL?
05:40 gaal oh, it isn't global :) shall i unforce everything?
05:40 gaal sure
05:42 gaal nm, commit your autosmoke script?
05:45 nothingmuch it's not that generic
05:45 nothingmuch should i commit and someone will edit?
05:45 nothingmuch or maybe i should just nopaste?
05:45 gaal sure, why not.
05:45 gaal that works too.
05:45 gaal anyway, i gotta run for work. see ya.
05:46 nothingmuch perlbot nopaste
05:46 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
05:46 nothingmuch same here actually
05:46 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "shell test loop" (40 lines, 966B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9831
05:47 nothingmuch make clean is probably not necessary for everyone, but sometimes incremental builds die on my box
05:47 gaal yeah, mine too.
05:48 gaal wait == teh clever
05:49 gaal never occured to me /bin/sh could do that :)
05:49 gaal oh, btw
05:50 gaal make smoke can now automatically u/l results
05:51 gaal modulo the actual u/ling that is. -- it has a %ENV<PUGS_SMOKE_UPLOAD> mech.
05:51 gaal anyway, i gotta go. bye! &
05:53 gaal (nm: is there a way to abort the smoke if it hangs?) &
06:01 nothingmuch killall pugs?
06:02 * nothingmuch looks at how make smoke uploads
06:03 skew is util the right place to put little scripts for working on pugs?
06:04 nothingmuch yep
06:06 skew hmm, I suppose I should make a perl script
06:06 skew right now it's just egrep '([1-9]00|[1-9]0|[1-9])\.[0-9][ ]+[^ ]+$'
06:10 skew but it could be imporved
06:11 skew that turns out to be enough for the filtering of the profiling output that I wanted
06:11 skew does anybody want to show me how to turn that into perl so it has room to grow?
06:11 gaal nm, killall is very unportable. on solaris it does something completely different. i was more worried about the alarm thogh; my sh-fu isn't that strong.
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06:12 gaal skew, naively that's perl -ne 'print if /that_regex/' in p5
06:12 skew what does that look like as a .pl file?
06:13 gaal #!/usr/bin/perl -n
06:13 gaal print if /that_re/
06:13 gaal work & # for real
06:14 skew does that regexp work?
06:14 skew that is, is there any way to do it much better?
06:15 gaal that is a valid p5 re - but i don't know your data very well
06:15 gaal gotta go now, back later.
06:15 skew columns of floating point numbers, I want lines where the second from the last is at least 1
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06:15 skew well, some text earlier on the line
06:16 skew is nobody else around?
06:43 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:45 castaway Nope
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2600 - * pugscc --pugs repaired!
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2601 - * This be Pugs, version 6.2.2.
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2602 - Made util/*.pl and script/pugscc svn:exe
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2603 - Skip /etc/shadow tests.
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2604 - * This be Pugs 6.2.2 for real.
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2605 - * nitpick
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2606 - Updated svnlog2graph.pl to use a better
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2607 - * `system(Str: List)` and `exec(Str: Lis
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2608 - eol-style => native on AUTHORS
06:46 jabbot pugs - 2609 - add some (mostly failing) #line tests
06:46 castaway good morning jabbot ,)
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06:55 jabbot pugs - 2610 - * make gaal's line_basic.t pass.
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07:13 nothingmuch gaal: yeah, i know killall is terribly broken on some platforms... /me did (aix|solaris|hpux|osf) sysop for a living up to a while ago
07:14 nothingmuch i haven't really thought about what would work
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07:14 nothingmuch because i don't think it's really an issue
07:14 nothingmuch i just kill the shell script
07:15 nothingmuch you could have it write $$ somewhere, and then use that if you want it managable
07:22 gaal|work it's not *broken*, it just means something else
07:23 gaal|work but does killing the script kill the running smoke?
07:23 nothingmuch eventually
07:23 gaal|work why?
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07:24 gaal|work hey, trillian is smart! i just noticed it logged me in automatically with the last nick i'd used on this client.
07:24 nothingmuch the child process receives a SIGFLKS
07:24 nothingmuch ;-)
07:24 nothingmuch i don't know
07:24 nothingmuch i just kill till it's dead
07:24 nothingmuch kill pugs kill make kill perl
07:24 nothingmuch lots of ps | awk
07:25 nothingmuch and everyone is happy
07:25 gaal|work SIG fuck, lookslikemyparentdied?
07:25 nothingmuch sig folks
07:25 gaal|work no, you could have a manual make going on
07:25 gaal|work ps|greps suck.
07:25 nothingmuch right
07:25 nothingmuch i don't do it blindly
07:26 nothingmuch one thing i haven't looked into is process groups
07:26 nothingmuch you could make it setsid
07:26 nothingmuch but perhaps even just killing the process group that == pid of the parent is enough
07:27 nothingmuch again, i haven't bothered with this stuff at all
07:27 skew hi, how do I send a patch?
07:27 nothingmuch skew: svn ci
07:28 nothingmuch i can give you commit privs
07:28 skew that should do it then
07:28 nothingmuch okay, i'll just need an email
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07:29 skew I'm brandon
07:29 skew hmm, let's use its.caltech.edu
07:30 nothingmuch okay, sent
07:33 skew I got it
07:34 nothingmuch welcome aboard
07:35 jabbot pugs - 2611 - Added a profiled-optimized (with synonym
07:36 castaway (and dont forget to fill in AUTHORS)
07:36 skew there we are
07:36 skew I'm already in there, actually
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07:52 mj perlbot nopaste
07:52 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
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07:55 pasteling "mj" at 147.229.221.107 pasted "Are these "for is rw" tests right?" (14 lines, 566B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9833
07:55 nothingmuch mj: looks good
07:55 nothingmuch i'm not sure about the hash comparison though
07:56 nothingmuch since hash order is not guaranteed the stringification might be different
07:56 nothingmuch i would just test %hash<a>, 2, and then %hash<c>, 4
07:56 nothingmuch but overall the test is good
07:57 nothingmuch the name 'nothingmuch' is being taken by impostors!
07:57 nothingmuch gmail, livejournal
07:57 nothingmuch beh
08:00 mj is( %hash_kv.sort, %kv.sort, ... or
08:00 mj is( %hash_kv<a>, 2, ...
08:00 mj is( %hash_kv<b>, 3, ...  ?
08:00 nothingmuch yup
08:05 jabbot pugs - 2612 - for.t - "for @list.values -> $num is rw"
08:06 bsb has left
08:08 mj t/statements/for.t  needed for new tutorial_gen. thanks :-)
08:25 gaal|work http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html # aiming for a two minute smoke
08:26 gaal|work this time with aggressive concurrency i saw tests fail too because of contentions.
08:26 gaal|work oops, why is the css screwed?
08:26 nothingmuch gaal: where can scp something?
08:27 gaal|work oh, it isn't inlined
08:27 gaal|work nm, you want to send someitnhg to me?
08:27 nothingmuch yep
08:28 gaal|work i'm at work, so i'd rather pull, if possible.
08:28 nothingmuch okay
08:28 nothingmuch rsyncying to home
08:28 nothingmuch ooh, 180k =)
08:28 gaal|work that can go in email, even.
08:28 nothingmuch no, i meant per second =)
08:28 gaal|work gaal strudel sheernetworks.com
08:29 gaal|work oh
08:29 gaal|work cool
08:29 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Karin%20Krog%20​&amp;%20Dexter%20Gordon%20-%20Some%20Other%20Sp​ring%20-%2009%20-%20Ode%20To%20Billy%20Joe.mp3 - http://xrl.us/fxzf
08:30 gaal|work decent uplink you have there.
08:30 * nothingmuch pays good money for it
08:31 * nothingmuch should rerip it
08:31 nothingmuch as ogg this time
08:31 nothingmuch this rip was for others at work
08:31 gaal|work nm, this is just in time - now i have an excuse to stop the cowerkre's crummy stuff
08:31 nothingmuch =)
08:32 nothingmuch NHOP is amazing
08:32 gaal|work NHOP?
08:33 nothingmuch Nils-Henning-øøsomething-Pederson
08:33 nothingmuch sorry, pedersen
08:33 nothingmuch and Ørsted is the Ø bit
08:33 nothingmuch and he's the bassist on that record =)
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08:35 nothingmuch more people refer to him as NHOP than by the full name though
08:37 nothingmuch btw, this is the CD from poland
08:37 gaal|work http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html - updated css
08:37 nothingmuch took it about a month and a half to get here, i think
08:45 jabbot pugs - 2613 - print message when all chunks are comple
08:49 autrijus hey.
08:50 autrijus somebody added a profiled-optimized
08:50 autrijus skew: is that you?
08:50 skew yes
08:50 autrijus problem being, since yesterday, our "make profiled" is already optimized.
08:50 autrijus note the -O.
08:50 skew oops
08:50 autrijus please revert the change :)
08:50 skew how does that go?
08:51 autrijus in general, I think -O reads better than -O1, despite them being synonyms
08:51 autrijus reverting?
08:51 skew yes, I've never used svn before
08:51 autrijus svn merge -r 2611:2610 .
08:51 autrijus I'll revert it for you :)
08:51 nothingmuch morning autrijus
08:52 autrijus hey nothingmuch.
08:52 skew where are patches listed?
08:52 nothingmuch skew: 'svn log'
08:52 skew okay
08:52 autrijus done
08:52 skew does co describe the new patches?
08:53 autrijus hm"
08:53 nothingmuch like darcs, you mean?
08:53 autrijus "svn up" is update
08:53 nothingmuch no, it lists the files that changed
08:53 nothingmuch and in 'svn co' it's probably all of them
08:53 autrijus to see the new changes, use svn log or something
08:53 autrijus if you want offline information about specific patches
08:53 autrijus as well as patch dependency information
08:53 skew svn log wants to show me everything that ever happened
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08:53 autrijus and patchset generation and contexts
08:54 autrijus then you want svk, not svn :)
08:54 autrijus svn is more... traditional
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08:54 autrijus it's basically the cvs model with much better internals
08:55 skew I'd like to leave the little script, unless somebody already did that too
08:55 Juerd moin!
08:55 autrijus skew: I left that alone too
08:55 jabbot pugs - 2614 - revert profiled-optimized because profil
08:55 nothingmuch ooh, we're going out to lunch
08:55 autrijus I only reverted Makefile.PL
08:55 autrijus hey Juerd.
08:56 skew oh, okay
08:56 nothingmuch hola Juerd
08:58 autrijus bbiab. :)
09:00 skew Is Context just someting internal to the interpreter, or can code directly manipulate the class tree in perl6?
09:01 skew basically, can I just rewrite it or do I have to worry about exposing it to the interpreted code
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11:01 decay *g*
11:01 castaway whose idea was this utf8 thing again? :)
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11:25 jabbot pugs - 2617 - More Haddocks (AST/Junc/Types)
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11:35 jabbot pugs - 2618 - Concurrency fixes in tests
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11:37 castaway pingpong, Odin
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12:01 nothingmuch gaal: ping
12:03 Limbic_Region did I misintrpet "#  for @a { say } is now parsed as for @a -> $_ is rw { say } " from yesterday's release notice?
12:04 Limbic_Region I interpreted it to mean that for @foo { ... } now worked as for @foo -> $_ is rw { ... }
12:04 Limbic_Region but that doesn't seem to work?
12:04 castaway sounds like thats what it means.
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12:06 Limbic_Region I am doing a fresh checkout now, but it doesn't work for me
12:06 Limbic_Region can someone please confirm?
12:09 castaway do the tests run?
12:09 * Limbic_Region didn't see a test for it
12:10 Limbic_Region but then again - I have wiped out my build and starting from scratch
12:10 Juerd Limbic_Region: No, it only works for arrays called @a ;)
12:10 nothingmuch eh?
12:10 Limbic_Region my @a = 1..5; for @a { $_ = 2 }; @a.say; # would be enough to test/verify for me
12:13 luqui there is a test for that, I believe
12:13 luqui t/statement/for.t, four from the end or so?
12:13 Limbic_Region I will look as soon as the compile is done
12:13 Limbic_Region my guess is that I have found another bug
12:13 nothingmuch why is it just for @a?
12:13 Limbic_Region last worked too but not properly
12:13 luqui I think that was a joke
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12:13 * Limbic_Region wonders if nothingmuch missed the smiley
12:13 nothingmuch ah
12:14 nothingmuch yes i did
12:14 * nothingmuch was panicking for a second there
12:15 Limbic_Region so if sub foo ( *@bar is rw ) { for @bar { $_ = 2 } @bar.say } foo( 2, 3, 5); # doesn't work - it is a bug?
12:15 jabbot pugs - 2619 - Fixed some comments that were confusing
12:16 * Juerd grins
12:16 Juerd nothingmuch: Yes, it was a joke :)
12:17 Juerd Limbic_Region: Depends on your definition of "work"
12:17 Juerd Limbic_Region: It shouldn't work as in assign 2 to any of 2, 3, 5, becuase literals are read only.
12:18 Limbic_Region err - that was for the sake of brevity
12:18 Limbic_Region imagine that foo( @list ) was what I had really said
12:18 Limbic_Region and @list = (2, 3, 5)
12:20 * Limbic_Region is nearly finished with the compile now
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12:25 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: look at http://pugs.kwiki.org/?SmokedPugs if you need Q&D results
12:25 nothingmuch you can browse the test files themselves
12:25 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/ <-- t/statements/for.t fails two subtests
12:25 nothingmuch s/two/three/
12:26 nothingmuch that run is from around 20 minutes ago
12:26 nothingmuch unsurpriisingly these are the is rw tests (mouse over the red boxes)
12:27 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - it isn't a matter of not working under the right conditions
12:27 Limbic_Region I think I found a bug in which it doesn't work when it should
12:27 * Limbic_Region is building a test case now
12:28 nothingmuch for @list_s -> { $_++ }; <-- does seem to work, btw
12:29 nothingmuch and in your example i think it shouldn't work
12:29 nothingmuch because it can't is rw what is constant
12:29 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - they aren't constants
12:29 Limbic_Region again, that was for brevity
12:29 Limbic_Region the actual code sticks them in an array that is modifiable
12:29 nothingmuch foo(1, 2, 3); # not constants?
12:30 nothingmuch ah
12:30 nothingmuch why are you splatting the array?
12:30 Limbic_Region [08:22] <Limbic_Region> err - that was for the sake of brevity
12:30 Limbic_Region [08:22] <Limbic_Region> imagine that foo( @list ) was what I had really said
12:30 Limbic_Region [08:22] <Limbic_Region> and @list = (2, 3, 5)
12:30 nothingmuch sorry, i'm having trouble concentrating =P
12:30 Limbic_Region hang on - I am almost finished
12:30 Limbic_Region ok - so the trouble appears to be with splatting the array
12:31 * nothingmuch 's train of thought looks more like a train accident, things splatterred all over
12:31 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
12:31 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
12:31 nothingmuch say 'sub foo (@bar is rw) { }';
12:31 nothingmuch btw, if you like, try the CLI
12:32 nothingmuch i couldn't get used to it
12:32 nothingmuch but maybe i should try again
12:32 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 69.250.48.119 pasted "Example of working and broken code" (22 lines, 290B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9837
12:33 Limbic_Region so @bar is rw for the parameter definition works
12:33 nothingmuch i don't think that's a bug
12:33 Limbic_Region but *@bar is rw doesn't
12:33 Limbic_Region and neither do I
12:33 Limbic_Region now
12:33 nothingmuch so add a test making sure it never works ;-)
12:33 nothingmuch no sense in not using what you wrote
12:33 Limbic_Region it took finding the smallest test case I could before the real issue identified itself
12:34 nothingmuch especially since it's a very clear disambiguation of behavior
12:34 * Limbic_Region is more interested in getting the code he was trying to write working first
12:34 nothingmuch put it the sub parameter tests
12:34 nothingmuch what were you trying to write?
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12:34 Limbic_Region an infinite lazy list
12:35 Limbic_Region translation of a p5 piece of code
12:35 Limbic_Region needed for @foo -> $_ is rw { ... } first
12:35 Limbic_Region saw that it got added
12:35 Limbic_Region went to work
12:35 Limbic_Region had same problem
12:35 Limbic_Region got confused
12:35 nothingmuch that works
12:35 Limbic_Region the rest as they say is history
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12:38 Limbic_Region wow - it doesn't blow up now
12:39 Limbic_Region it doesn't give the correct results, but it doesn't blow up
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12:57 Limbic_Region yay - it works
12:58 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 69.250.48.119 pasted "Infinite Lazy List" (23 lines, 588B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9838
12:59 * Limbic_Region wanders off to eat some breakfast and will return to check in a test and an example
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13:02 Shillo Hullo!
13:03 shapr bok Shillo
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13:04 shapr autrijus: Hey, to which address should I forward the SPJ email?
13:05 Limbic_Region nothingmuch ping
13:08 nothingmuch pong
13:08 Limbic_Region WRT to writing a test for failure
13:08 Limbic_Region it is currently a parse fail
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13:09 Limbic_Region not sure how to construct a test that says "this shouldn't work"
13:13 Limbic_Region any ideas?
13:15 jabbot pugs - 2620 - Added infinite lazy list example
13:16 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - if you think of how to add such a test, the example is still at http://sial.org/pbot/9837
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13:24 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=453215 # post about latest example
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13:38 nothingmuch sorry, i had to go do what i write down in the MS proj server as "internal support"
13:39 nothingmuch what we normally do (see t/README) is comment that stuff out
13:39 nothingmuch and then do fail("parse error", :todo), or maybe without the todo
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13:41 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - really - be my guess
13:41 Limbic_Region errr guest even
13:42 gaal|work rehi # internet blackouts make me jitter
13:45 nothingmuch gaal|work: whats the current status quo of parsefails in tests?
13:45 nothingmuch block comment + fail("parsefail")?
13:45 gaal|work i think so, yes
13:46 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: did you comit a broken test? i can fix it if you like
13:47 Limbic_Region no
13:47 Limbic_Region I didn't commit at all
13:47 nothingmuch so please do =)
13:47 Limbic_Region because I didn't know how to say "this test should break"
13:48 Limbic_Region and would just soon learn from example
13:48 Limbic_Region http://sial.org/pbot/9837
13:48 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: make it into a test first
13:48 nothingmuch is(@foo, @expected);
13:48 nothingmuch ...
13:48 nothingmuch one that doesn't even compile
13:48 nothingmuch (use Test, plan x
13:49 Limbic_Region you are almost as bad as stevan - you know that?
13:49 nothingmuch then comit it, and we'll see what we can do about cleanup
13:49 Limbic_Region alright alright
13:49 nothingmuch hehe
13:49 nothingmuch stevan and I think alike for the most part, i guess
13:51 stevan hey, you guys talking about me?
13:51 nothingmuch yeah, we were saying stuff about your mother
13:51 nothingmuch but we took care to [off] that so it won't be logged
13:52 stevan ok
13:52 stevan good
13:52 stevan mom is sensitive about people talking about about her on IRC :P
13:53 nothingmuch there's a nice #bash quip about that
13:53 nothingmuch =)
13:54 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 69.250.48.119 pasted "splatted parameters shouldn't be rw test for nothingmuch" (22 lines, 338B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9839
13:55 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - there ya go
13:55 Limbic_Region notice the 'Some Failure'
13:55 Limbic_Region maybe it should even be in an eval_is() ?
13:56 nothingmuch one second
13:57 * Limbic_Region counts to at least 60
13:58 nothingmuch metaphorical second please
13:59 drbean Pugs.Parser is taking a long time to compile
13:59 Limbic_Region drbean - if you want it to go faster, make unoptimized
13:59 Limbic_Region optimized is the default build now - which takes longer
14:00 drbean How long is long?
14:01 nothingmuch drbean: on my ppc g4 around 10 mins
14:01 Limbic_Region 15 on my 1.5ghz pentium with 512mb of ram
14:02 nothingmuch ppc g4 = 1ghz (dual, but not that it matters when compiling), 1.25gb ram
14:02 Limbic_Region hmmm
14:02 nothingmuch okay, i'm with you LR
14:02 Limbic_Region I should have mentioned that 15 minutes is for a 100% fresh build
14:02 nothingmuch sorry, new sysadmin needed hand holding
14:02 nothingmuch i think splatted + rw does not make sense at all
14:02 Limbic_Region not just Pugs.Parser
14:02 nothingmuch (same)
14:02 Limbic_Region well, that's what the test says and does
14:02 nothingmuch what kind of error does that file give you?
14:03 nothingmuch i mean it should be a parse error, maybe
14:03 Limbic_Region but not sure how to properly capture that
14:03 nothingmuch in the future
14:03 nothingmuch i would make it several parts
14:03 nothingmuch let me try a bit
14:04 Limbic_Region I was thinking it should be a catchable error that could be caught with eval
14:05 Limbic_Region and that we would just need to check $@ (or whatever it is now)
14:05 Limbic_Region but since we want to write a test before that functionality exists - not sure how it should look
14:05 * Limbic_Region wanders off to put some clothes on
14:06 gaal|work has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:06 autrijus hi.
14:06 autrijus I bring you... eval_yaml().
14:06 nothingmuch there's dies_ok, but that's for code refs
14:06 nothingmuch autrijus++
14:06 autrijus committing.
14:07 autrijus done as r2621.
14:07 skew autrijus: where is the class stuff for Context.hs specified?
14:07 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i can whip you up a dies ok for eval string... would that be good enough?
14:08 autrijus skew: S06
14:08 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - haven't got my pants on yet
14:08 Limbic_Region explain to autrijus real quick
14:08 Limbic_Region come up with a consensus
14:08 Limbic_Region and I will commit the test
14:09 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: ?
14:10 Limbic_Region about how to represent a test that should fail but with behavior we aren't sure of yet
14:11 Limbic_Region or will the dies_ok not care about the string
14:11 nothingmuch dum dee dum
14:11 * Limbic_Region just needs an example
14:11 autrijus so, anyone up for svn up to r2622
14:11 autrijus and see if eval_yaml indeed works?
14:12 autrijus the .yaml() emitter interface is easy too
14:14 autrijus Limbic_Region: you have a curious habit of writing
14:14 autrijus sub { ... }
14:14 autrijus where
14:14 autrijus { ... }
14:14 autrijus will suffice and a bit more lightweight
14:14 Limbic_Region autrijus - not curious - expected
14:14 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
14:14 Limbic_Region I start with the p5 code
14:14 autrijus ahh.
14:14 autrijus that explains
14:14 Limbic_Region and only change those things I know will break otherwise
14:14 Limbic_Region feel free to change the example
14:15 Limbic_Region I will change the Monastery post
14:15 * Limbic_Region has finished dressing now
14:15 jabbot pugs - 2621 - * `eval_yaml()` support.
14:15 jabbot pugs - 2622 - * fix build.
14:16 elmex has joined #perl6
14:16 shapr "Actually, we're rather impressed at the sophistication of the programming techniques that Autrijus and you and the other Pugs folk are deploying.  Subcontinuations, GADTs, what next?" -- SPJ
14:16 Limbic_Region autrijus - actually - dropping sub from the place where I think you mean breaks the code
14:16 Limbic_Region my $by_n = sub { my ($n, $k) = (shift(@_), 0); return sub { @_[0] ?? $k += $n :: $k } };
14:17 Limbic_Region dropping either "sub" breaks the code autrijus
14:17 autrijus woot, eval_yaml(slurp("META.yml")) works
14:17 Limbic_Region err - no
14:17 autrijus shapr: wow?
14:17 autrijus STMs of course :)
14:17 Limbic_Region dropping the first one does
14:17 shapr autrijus: yes, I thought about STM as soon I read that.
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14:18 autrijus Limbic_Region: yeah, because a block is not a proper sub
14:18 autrijus hrm.
14:18 autrijus wait, that makes no sense.
14:18 * autrijus needs food to think coherently
14:19 * shapr needs sleep to think coherently
14:19 shapr Too bad it's not working.
14:19 elmex the parrot backend of pugscc is experimental i guess?
14:19 autrijus shapr: fwd me that mail? :)
14:19 autrijus elmex: all of pugs is experimental
14:19 shapr Sure, which address?
14:19 autrijus but yes, --parrot doubly so
14:19 elmex ;)
14:19 autrijus shapr: autrijus at autrijus dot org
14:19 elmex autrijus: ;)
14:19 shapr ok
14:19 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - I am afraid I am almost out of tuits this morning - need to go pick up my Dad from the airport RSN
14:19 autrijus elmex: helps welcome -- it's in src/Compile/Parrot.hs
14:20 elmex autrijus: my knowledge in imc/pasm is even less than in haskell
14:20 elmex (heck, i know more MIXAL than IMC ;)
14:21 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: okay then, i'll commit something partial
14:21 nothingmuch or you can commit, and i can edit
14:21 autrijus elmex: it's quite easy to learn actually :)
14:21 elmex autrijus: i guess so
14:21 autrijus imc is a sane assembly language
14:21 autrijus as assembly goes
14:23 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - I will make same deal with you as I did with stevan
14:24 nothingmuch #!/usr/bin/pugs
14:24 nothingmuch use v6;
14:24 Limbic_Region check in http://sial.org/pbot/9839 however it needs to be to minimally do the right thing
14:24 nothingmuch use Test;
14:24 nothingmuch =kwid
14:24 nothingmuch Splatted parameters shouldn't be rw even if stated as such
14:24 nothingmuch =cut
14:24 nothingmuch plan 2;
14:24 nothingmuch # test splatted parameter for rw ability
14:24 nothingmuch eval '
14:24 Limbic_Region I will follow it up with investigation
14:24 nothingmuch    sub should_fail ( *@list is rw ) {
14:24 nothingmuch        @list[0] = 'failure expected';
14:24 nothingmuch    }
14:24 nothingmuch    my @test = 1..5;
14:24 nothingmuch ';
14:24 nothingmuch ok(defined($!), "trying to use an 'is rw' splat doesn't work out");
14:24 nothingmuch eval '
14:24 nothingmuch sub should_fail (*@list is rw) { }
14:24 nothingmuch ';
14:24 nothingmuch ok(defined($1), "trying to define an 'is rw' splat doesn't work either");
14:24 nothingmuch shyte, sorry
14:24 * Limbic_Region wonders why nothingmuch is pasting everything I nopasted
14:24 nothingmuch i meant that to be: http://sial.org/pbot/9840
14:24 nothingmuch nothingmuch--
14:25 nothingmuch that's not what you nopasted, that's what I nopasted, and then also pasted
14:25 Limbic_Region ahhh
14:25 Limbic_Region ok - so check that in and I will follow up
14:25 nothingmuch righty-o
14:25 nothingmuch how should we call the test?
14:25 Limbic_Region autrijus - I will also follow up with you about why 1 "sub" can be dropped but not the other
14:25 Limbic_Region s/how/what/
14:25 Limbic_Region splat_rw.t
14:27 nothingmuch our internet is dying, look at all the packets that we send
14:27 * nothingmuch looks for formaldehyde
14:28 * shapr finds some informaldehyde
14:28 shapr I guess that's when formaldehyde dresses down.
14:31 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: r2623
14:31 nothingmuch it has one fail
14:32 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - I have about 10 minutes before I need to head to the airport which isn't enough time
14:32 Limbic_Region will look at it tomorrow though
14:32 Limbic_Region thanks
14:32 nothingmuch it's just FYI, there's not much else to do for that test
14:32 nothingmuch except maybe do a dies_ok on strings and refactor it to use it
14:35 jabbot pugs - 2623 - Add limbic_regions' test with some modif
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15:08 gaal|work yaml serializes perl5 regexps
15:09 gaal|work it calls them perl/regexp
15:09 gaal|work rather, !perl/regexp
15:16 castaway seen theorbtwo
15:16 jabbot castaway: theorbtwo was seen 18 hours 10 minutes 19 seconds ago
15:19 autrijus hm.
15:19 autrijus somebody wrote me to say that his sieve.p6 is too slow.
15:19 autrijus running it on my computer yields 25s real time
15:19 autrijus so I tweaked Types.Array a bit.
15:20 autrijus now it runs in 5s.
15:20 autrijus about to commit ;)
15:21 castaway *g*
15:21 wilx Diabolous.
15:21 shapr haha
15:22 autrijus but more importantly, it's now O(n) instead of O(n**2).
15:25 stevan autrijus++
15:26 autrijus tests++ # caught a implementation glitch
15:26 stevan speed++ # moves me that much closer to ditching perl5 :)
15:27 autrijus stevan: you saw we have eval_yaml now?
15:27 stevan yes I did
15:28 autrijus I'm quite excited. :) that moves me much closer to ditch perl5 too.
15:28 stevan I wish I could test/play with it, but $work has been killing me lately
15:28 stevan BTW- for the :todo<attr> idea
15:28 stevan I thought maybe 3 levels
15:28 stevan :todo<bug>
15:28 stevan :todo<feature>
15:28 CamelPeak has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:28 stevan :todo<parsefail>
15:28 ninereasons has joined #perl6
15:28 stevan can you think of any more?
15:29 shapr 9r 9r, what's your 10-20?
15:29 autrijus probably that's enough
15:29 ninereasons hi shapr :_)
15:29 stevan maybe I should talkt o chromatic about this too?
15:29 autrijus hardfail too
15:29 * shapr waves a subcontinuation
15:29 autrijus I have an idea
15:29 stevan integrate into Test::Builder
15:29 autrijus if it's :todo<hardfail>
15:30 autrijus then we don't evaluate the condition at all
15:30 stevan yes
15:30 autrijus ok(core_dump(), :todo<hardfail>);
15:30 stevan hardfail == uncatchable in pugs?
15:30 autrijus yeah
15:30 stevan ok
15:30 stevan but parsable
15:30 autrijus but parsable
15:30 stevan :)
15:30 autrijus you can implement that using the "is lazy" trait.
15:31 stevan is that available ?
15:31 autrijus sure
15:31 stevan cool
15:31 stevan ok($cond is lazy, ...
15:31 stevan then how do I un-lazy-ify it?
15:32 autrijus pugs> sub cond (Bool $cond, $true is lazy, $false is lazy) { $cond ?? $true :: $false }
15:32 autrijus undef
15:32 autrijus pugs> cond(1, 2, die(3))
15:32 autrijus 2
15:32 autrijus "is lazy" is param trait
15:32 stevan very cool
15:32 stevan so if I dont ask for it, it will never evaluate
15:32 autrijus exactly.
15:32 autrijus and you don't need to force it
15:32 stevan *sniff* I love perl 6
15:32 autrijus it will just evaluate when needed
15:33 autrijus I think @larry wants to rename it
15:33 autrijus "is delayed" or something
15:33 autrijus but anyway, the functionality is there
15:33 stevan excellent
15:33 stevan I will work on it after $work tonight
15:33 autrijus stevan++
15:33 stevan autrijus++
15:33 shapr C--
15:34 stevan Pascal--
15:34 autrijus C--++
15:34 * shapr laughs
15:34 stevan pcode++ # bootstraping rules
15:34 gaal|work say, i was looking for a list of platforms parrot currently builds on. i couldn't find it :)
15:34 gaal|work any idea where it's at?
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15:35 jabbot pugs - 2624 - * switch IArray implementation to IntMap
15:39 ninereasons "is delayed" sounds less virtuous than "is lazy"
15:39 gaal|work yeah, and "is lazy" makes you wonder what "is impatient" does.
15:40 castaway heh
15:41 stevan "lazy evaluation" is well known terminology I think
15:41 stevan but hey,.. I dont design the things I just write tests for 'em
15:41 shapr non-strict vs strict
15:42 gaal|work my $programmer is lazy is impatient is hubristik;
15:42 gaal|work tic
15:43 stevan my $programmer is delayed;
15:43 ninereasons that makes me wonder if traits are additive
15:43 stevan or junctive
15:43 shapr My computer is a pile of junc!
15:43 stevan my $programmer is lazy & impatient & hubristik
15:44 stevan my $project is cheap | fast | good;
15:44 stevan $project.pick()
15:44 gaal|work My hovercraft is full of eels
15:44 gaal|work it's pick two, no?
15:44 stevan $project.pick()
15:45 stevan of course you might get the same one :)
15:45 gaal|work my smoke is insanely fast
15:45 gaal|work must not be very good or cheap then
15:45 jabbot pugs - 2625 - * eval_yaml now takes and emits UTF8 str
15:45 jabbot pugs - 2626 - * preliminary checkin for ChangeLog lest
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15:54 gaal|work http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html # looks like no concurrency problems now
15:55 jabbot pugs - 2627 - * much faster pop/push implementation
15:58 nothingmuch drop your panties sir william, i cannot wait till lunch time
16:00 gaal|work i have a better idea for fixing the pugsrun/ concurency issues! expose open pipe already. hackage tonight.
16:01 BigBear has joined #perl6
16:01 gaal|work or maybe that complicates the tests too much? what do you guys tihnk?
16:01 gaal|work ie adds another fallible factor
16:07 stevan gaal|work: how do I get the concurrency working?
16:08 gaal|work env PUGS_TESTS_CONCURRENT=7 make smoke
16:08 gaal|work you may want to use a lower value of 7 though.
16:10 gaal|work home! bye.
16:10 gaal|work has left
16:10 nothingmuch maybe we can buy CPU hours from that sun über cluster
16:10 nothingmuch PUGS_TESTS_CONCURRENT=30
16:11 nothingmuch they charge $1 per cpu hour
16:11 nothingmuch perhaps we can get a charitable discount
16:11 * nothingmuch goes home too
16:11 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
16:12 autrijus gaal_: I think go for it.
16:16 Corion has joined #perl6
16:16 autrijus hey Corion.
16:17 * Corion bows to autrijus-sama
16:18 * autrijus ponders what to use the builtin yaml support for
16:18 autrijus I also wonder if yaml emitting is important.
16:18 autrijus $obj.yaml
16:18 PerlJam autrijus: my gut says that it is or will soon be.
16:19 Odin-LAP It'd be cool, at least.
16:19 Corion autrijus: Please fix YAML so that newlines at the end of file don't break the import :)
16:20 Corion autrijus: (or missing newlines, I forget which breaks YAML)
16:20 autrijus Corion: try it yourself?
16:20 Corion (Perl5 YAML, that is)
16:20 Corion autrijus: I thought there is some holy spec to YAML?
16:20 autrijus er, I mean
16:20 autrijus eval_yaml()
16:20 autrijus in pugs.
16:20 autrijus it's available now
16:20 autrijus only supports strings, arrays and hashes
16:20 autrijus no pairs or native int yet
16:20 autrijus but it's a start
16:21 Corion autrijus: Supporting much more is overkill/useless anyway :)
16:27 autrijus I think the newline bug is solved
16:27 autrijus in pugs
16:27 autrijus or rather, in syck
16:27 autrijus I wonder why we don't switch to syck for perl5 anyway.
16:27 autrijus it has both parsing and emitting capabilities.
16:28 autrijus and it will ensure interop with php ruby python ocaml haskell :)
16:28 autrijus or and objc.
16:28 autrijus s/or/oh/
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17:06 autrijus committing PGE as part of Pugs tree.
17:06 shapr PGE?
17:07 autrijus perl 6 rules parser thing.
17:07 theorbtwo The Perl6 Rules Engine.
17:07 shapr ohh
17:08 autrijus lifting the :P5 requirement on Eval.hs
17:08 theorbtwo autrijus: What are you working on for the next week or so?
17:08 autrijus theorbtwo: no idea. :-/
17:08 autrijus I should do $work.
17:08 * shapr too
17:09 * autrijus praises pattern guards
17:10 theorbtwo Just wondering -- it sounds like you're going to be doing p6 rules, but I think more people are wanting objects.
17:10 theorbtwo Hm, I can see that a p6 rules implementation might bring us closer to the point where we can start folding ourselves over to selfhosting.
17:10 autrijus er, I'm not doing p6 rules :)
17:11 autrijus I'm just committing PGE in the tree.
17:11 PerlJam theorbtwo: autrijus won't be doing rules.  Pm is doing rules.
17:11 autrijus yup.
17:11 autrijus certain rumour says he'll deliver the promised revision
17:11 autrijus in the next 8 hours.
17:11 theorbtwo pmichaud is doing the glue too, or just the C bits?
17:12 PerlJam theorbtwo: and you are correct.  Once pugs has perl6 rules, we are ready to start bootstrapping (unless someone can think of a showstopper that I can't)
17:12 autrijus er.
17:12 autrijus writing a compiler without using objects.
17:12 theorbtwo Differing semantics between p6 rules and parsec?
17:12 theorbtwo That too.
17:12 autrijus not happy.
17:12 autrijus so, objects still priority #1.
17:14 gaal_ rehi
17:14 PerlJam autrijus: pmichaud also said that when he's done, he'll pop in here to give you guys a heads up.
17:14 theorbtwo Allo, Gall of the Order of the Underscore.
17:15 gaal_ am i underscored? phew.
17:15 gaal_ is now known as gaal
17:15 gaal nickserv is bothering me again :(
17:16 theorbtwo autrijus, is the theory to rewrite what we have into p6, or to write a haskell to p6 converter... that understands all the "interesting" features we're using, like GADT, TH, etc?
17:17 autrijus theorbtwo: I think writing Grid -> PugsAST
17:17 autrijus is the easiest rout.
17:17 autrijus I mean Grin -> PugsAST
17:17 autrijus and route.
17:17 PerlJam "Grin"?
17:17 theorbtwo Grin?
17:17 theorbtwo Is this another name for Core?
17:17 autrijus Grin is the intermediate code that JHC uses.
17:17 theorbtwo Ah.
17:17 PerlJam righto.
17:17 obra Is grin some weird smiley variant of ook?
17:17 autrijus looks cleaner than Core
17:18 autrijus alternatively
17:18 autrijus Grin -> IMC
17:18 theorbtwo Does jhc compile us?
17:18 autrijus is possible, but then it won't be "bootstrapping"
17:18 autrijus it will just be parrot-hosting
17:18 PerlJam I was going to suggest that compiling haskell to PugsAST would be simpler than haskell to p6, but grin -> AST sounds even better
17:19 autrijus theorbtwo: I don't know, not yet tried. jhc however supports lots of ghc extensions already
17:19 autrijus and emits very fast code due to whole program analysis
17:19 autrijus so in any case I think helping out jhc may prove more fruitful.
17:19 theorbtwo Nod.
17:19 autrijus but Core -> IMC or Core -> PugsAST isn't ruled out either.
17:19 autrijus I still prefer -> PugsAST
17:19 autrijus because then Pugs.Compile.Perl6 (aka deparse) can yield a p6 version of pugs.
17:20 shapr I think grin is short for something like Graph Reduction Intermediate Notation
17:20 theorbtwo Well, assuming we don't use features of PugsAST that cannot be expressed in p6...
17:20 theorbtwo ...or create ways to express them.
17:20 autrijus thing is, Grin is comparable in complexity with Pugs's Exp
17:20 PerlJam autrijus: heh, do the same for p5 and obviate Larry's current work  ;-)
17:20 autrijus that is, extremely simple
17:20 autrijus PerlJam: based on PPI, or mandrake's Ocaml perl5 parser?
17:21 autrijus because you know, doing it based on B::* is impossible without Larry's PPD work.
17:21 shapr Grin - http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~​boquist/ifl96-abstract.html from http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~boquist/
17:21 PerlJam autrijus: yeah, and you'll need more annotation to get the exact source out that you put in as Larry has done with PPD
17:22 PerlJam lots more annotation
17:22 autrijus I sometimes wonder if Pugs should have Pugs.Compile.Grin.
17:22 autrijus " Preliminary measurements look very promising: we are currently twice as fast as the Glasgow Haskell Compiler for some small programs. Our approach still gives us many opportunities for further optimisations (though yet unexplored)."
17:22 autrijus PerlJam: you are welcome to do that or bribe people to do that :)
17:22 shapr John also said a few days back that he found a paper that will likely solve even more of the speed issues of jhc.
17:23 autrijus I think John is amazing.
17:23 shapr Yeah, I agree.
17:23 shapr Many people on both #haskell and #perl fall into that category.
17:23 shapr er #perl6, I dunno #perl
17:23 autrijus :)
17:24 PerlJam shapr: Are you including yourself in that group? ;-)
17:24 shapr I regularly amaze myself, both positively and negatively.
17:24 PerlJam heh
17:24 autrijus PGE segfaults on empty strings.
17:25 autrijus I hope pmichaud solved that on his new release.
17:25 shapr I like to hang out with people who know more than me, and can do more than me. I think it's a much faster way to improve than being a hermit.
17:25 PerlJam autrijus: hopefully we'll find out later today
17:25 jabbot pugs - 2628 - * Env is now constructed with MkEnv for
17:26 obra how old is the old release, autrijus?
17:26 autrijus obra: several months
17:26 PerlJam one of the cool things about pge-in-parrot is that we get unicode "for free"
17:26 autrijus close to half a year or something
17:26 autrijus ~very old
17:26 * obra nods
17:27 theorbtwo In pugs terms, that's dottering old age.
17:27 theorbtwo OK, perhaps not quite.
17:27 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
17:28 * theorbtwo wonders if there's a nice web view of svn log -v somewhere.
17:29 autrijus theorbtwo: pugs.openfoundry.org
17:29 autrijus click on "version control" table or something
17:30 autrijus ok, PGE is now part of Pugs. watch this space to see if pmichaud would actually release something tomorrow :)
17:30 * obra ponders poking gugod about designing a task-centric foundry interface
17:30 nothingmuch evening
17:31 nothingmuch how fast do we get rules? 2-3 days max? or are you planning on sleeping just a bit this week? ;-)
17:31 autrijus also, I think a concrete PGE node representation in haskell will help
17:31 autrijus because that will make a PgeExp based parser monad possible
17:31 autrijus and someone can write a Parsec -> PgeExp engine.
17:32 autrijus that will translate our existing Parsec primitives to Perl 6 Rules.
17:32 autrijus that is not even very hard :)
17:32 autrijus just port the .Prim and .Combinators.
17:32 autrijus nothingmuch: no, it will take quite some time :)
17:32 * nothingmuch thinks that could be a nice excercise
17:32 autrijus certainly after objects.
17:32 autrijus unless, of course, _you_ help :)
17:32 theorbtwo Hm?  But parsec is smart infinite lookahead whereas perl6 rules are... um... not.
17:32 gaal theorbtwo: <lj user=pugscode_svn>
17:32 autrijus theorbtwo: actually they are isomorphic!
17:33 theorbtwo Oooh, nifty?
17:33 autrijus theorbtwo: the only difference being parsec commits by default, and p6rules tries by default.
17:33 autrijus but that is a syntactic level difference.
17:35 shapr What about arrow-style parsers? Any use here?
17:35 jabbot pugs - 2629 - * PGE is now part of Pugs; :P5 restricti
17:35 jabbot pugs - 2630 - * fix segfault
17:37 autrijus not sure.
17:40 * nothingmuch summons stevan
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17:49 Corion Ooops. Text.PGE is not included in the current build ?
17:49 Corion (or should it be part of GHC ?)
17:49 pernod Hi all.
17:49 nothingmuch hola
17:49 pernod Can anyone please tell me how I get make smoke to run on XP?
17:50 pernod Mine says: "sorry, concurrency not supported on your platform"
17:50 pernod Did I miss an Obvious Command Line Option?
17:51 gaal don't set PUGS_TESTS_CONCURRENT
17:51 pernod I don't :)
17:51 gaal huh? looking.
17:52 pernod c:\dev\fun\pugs>nmake smok
17:52 pernod (+e)
17:52 gaal oops, yes, a big. fixing.
17:52 Corion gaal: Make the script smarter and force it to 1 if Win32 is detected maybe? :)
17:52 gaal sure
17:52 autrijus Corion: oops.
17:52 autrijus added
17:52 Corion ... this reminds me, I should really fix run_smoke.pl to use File::Spec instead of hardcoded ./pugs
17:52 gaal (i did that at some point and must have moosed it up soemtime)
17:53 pernod so "env PUGS_TESTS_CONCURRENT=1 nmake smoke" should work?
17:53 obra is the build supposed to be broken right now?
17:53 autrijus obra: svn up
17:53 obra "Could not find module `Text.PGE'
17:53 obra oh. am I on the wrong repository?
17:54 * obra is on svn.openfoundry.org
17:54 obra 2631
17:54 autrijus no, that is the right one. r2632.
17:54 gaal pernod, sec
17:54 obra :P
17:54 pernod No problem :)
17:55 autrijus if tomorrow's PGE is what it claims to be, then I think full perl6 bootstrapping is definitely in sight this year.
17:55 jabbot pugs - 2631 - * luqui noted that `for (@list): {block}
17:55 jabbot pugs - 2632 - * Text.PGE
17:56 autrijus (note: we don't need macros to bootstrap. :-))
17:57 gaal pernod: svn up
17:57 pernod (Ah. I'm on darcs ...)
17:58 * pernod wanders off to install svn
17:58 hlen has quit IRC (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
17:58 theorbtwo The darcs mirror doesn't update all that often, IIRC.
17:58 autrijus there's a ~100sec lag.
17:58 pernod Ok, no problem then :)
17:59 theorbtwo Oh, not that bad.  I thought it mirrored at fixed times.
17:59 autrijus if connection to svn.perl.org is slow though, as sometimes it, darcs will suffer a bit
17:59 autrijus because I push to svn.perl.org first
18:00 theorbtwo Hm, still lots of def w/o signature in the Lexer & Parser.
18:00 * stevan runs off to fetch the package with his Haskell book in it :)
18:01 hlen has joined #perl6
18:01 autrijus theorbtwo: btw, work on the oo model needs a refactoring on the Val model
18:01 autrijus currently everything but VRef, VOpaque, VError and VControl is "unboxed"
18:01 autrijus which is Wrong
18:01 autrijus because perl6 doesn't have unboxed handles
18:01 autrijus (or unboxed "code")
18:02 autrijus once that refactoring happens (i.e. use method calls for internal dispatch)
18:02 autrijus OO is a matter of applying the metamodel and expose it to the syntax level
18:02 pernod gaal: What's the revision number in question?
18:03 autrijus but that refactoring is kind of hard... esp with the broken reference semantics we have
18:03 autrijus to wit:
18:03 autrijus my $x; $x = \$x;
18:03 autrijus doesn't do what it should do.
18:03 autrijus but again, I'm not sure if it doesn't infinite loop forever if invoked.
18:03 chady has quit IRC ("leaving")
18:03 autrijus my $x; $x = \$x; $x[0] = 1;
18:03 autrijus this infinite loops. I thought it is a bug, so I "fixed" it
18:03 autrijus but maybe it isn't a bug, it's a feature.
18:03 autrijus anyone care to look up the bible and/or ask on p6l?
18:04 theorbtwo BTW, that can be written as my $x=\$x; now; the scope for the new variable starts with the current statement, not the next one.
18:05 autrijus yeah. that works in pugs too
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18:05 theorbtwo I don't see why $x[0]=1; would invoke the reference at all.
18:05 theorbtwo Shouldn't it simply replace it?
18:05 autrijus no.
18:05 jabbot pugs - 2633 - graceful fallback on native win32
18:05 perdix has joined #perl6
18:06 autrijus my $y = (1); my $x = \$y; $x[0] = 1
18:06 autrijus it needs to follow the reference
18:06 autrijus my $y = (1); my $x = \\\\\$y; $x[0] = 1
18:06 autrijus that too.
18:06 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "modest io proposal" (20 lines, 766B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9847
18:07 gaal please comment. these two functions will use (the existing) Pugs::Internal::openFile and ::runInteractiveCommand internally, and the existing Prim open will be removed.
18:07 gaal oh, also, we'll now have a way to open-pipe w/o using the shell.
18:08 gaal also also, i am completely ignoring shell fd magic (dupes etc.)
18:08 gaal i have no idea how to handle that :(
18:09 hlen has joined #perl6
18:09 autrijus looks sane.
18:10 theorbtwo Looks sane to me.
18:10 autrijus p6l it?
18:10 gaal thanks. other than the pipes, i'll pick up the existing aliases (eg > == w and so on)
18:10 autrijus (so Rod can include it)
18:10 obra pugs appears 1/13th faster than when I tried it on friday
18:10 gaal sure
18:11 theorbtwo I'd handle dup as a method on an existing handle.
18:11 autrijus obra: yeah, because the smoke test doesn't use much arrays.
18:11 autrijus or rather, long arrays.
18:11 gaal i want to implement it first though, so autrijus you can help with gluing it, so i can then remove the Prim open and fix all the tests :)
18:12 autrijus you go ahead with Prim
18:12 autrijus we'll see what we can do :)
18:12 gaal if there's both a Prim open and a perl6 multi sub open, which gets called?
18:13 autrijus eh?
18:13 gaal (with no invocant)
18:13 autrijus the Prim is merely dispached with the table below
18:13 autrijus they are not really special
18:13 autrijus and they are all multi subs underneath.
18:14 gaal suppose i define, oh, multi sub time()
18:14 theorbtwo gaal, I'd like to see an explicit encoding argument, with the default being "auto".
18:14 gaal and somewhere do say time
18:14 theorbtwo (Which notices a BOM if one is present, and defaults to ASCII if one is not.)
18:14 autrijus er, I want perlIO layers :)
18:15 gaal does pugs's haskell op0 time get called, or my p6 code?
18:15 gaal yeah, i was afraid of that! :)
18:15 gaal but you'
18:15 gaal re right of course
18:15 gaal layers oughta be in
18:15 gaal i <3 IO::via::gzip autopop
18:16 theorbtwo Do we need an explicit layers thing, and not just multiple classes that Does filehandle?
18:18 gaal hmmm, should pipe() have encoding too? :/
18:18 gaal it's three handles...
18:18 autrijus gaal: try and see. flu is massacring my brain now
18:18 gaal potentially
18:18 autrijus so I really need to sleep. :)
18:18 theorbtwo It should.
18:18 theorbtwo Having just the one is probably OK for most purposes.
18:19 autrijus journal up, btw.
18:19 * autrijus waves &
18:19 theorbtwo G'night.
18:19 gaal feel well, autrijus
18:20 obra night
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18:29 * pernod finally got the darcs synch
18:29 pernod nmake smoke is ok. Thanks.
18:30 gaal yay. thanks for the report :)
18:30 pernod Is there something an aspiring lambda-camel can look into?
18:31 pernod I'd like to try to contribute ... something.
18:32 castaway look at the todo tests ?
18:33 pernod Any specific areas that aren't too difficult to start with?
18:33 * castaway has no idea
18:33 pernod :)
18:34 gaal pernod, another way to start is to port your favorite p5 module from cpan
18:34 theorbtwo Adding missing prims was long considered an easy starter, but I think we mostly have them now.
18:34 gaal as you go you might find missing features
18:34 gaal then you have motivation to add them :)
18:34 * pernod looks for Test::LectroTest
18:36 shapr Oh, good choice.
18:36 pernod Should be more than a little challenging ...
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18:49 * theorbtwo wonders if there's a better way to write Pugs.Rule.Char.CharParser from in src/Pugs/Lexer.hs (I can't find one).
18:52 gaal to2, doesn't CharParser just work? see l 143
18:52 gaal (i know that's a comment)
18:52 theorbtwo Nope.
18:52 theorbtwo Which is probably why it's a comment.
18:53 gaal how does the compiler figure out the type though?
18:53 theorbtwo --show-iface renders it as parens :: Pugs.Rule.Char.CharParser{1} st a -> Pugs.Rule.Char.CharParser{1} st a, but that doesn't work.
19:00 lightstep you can import Pugs.Rule.Char (CharParser)
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19:23 lightstep what does the comment on line 429 in AST.hs mean?
19:23 lightstep    | VList     VList -- Lists are lazy.
19:23 lightstep that's that only non-strict constructor
19:23 lightstep but VList is a lazy datatype anyway - so what does it matter?
19:24 theorbtwo VList is a lazy datatype being modeled by a lazy datatype.
19:24 theorbtwo The rest are strict datatypes being modeled by strict datatypes.
19:24 theorbtwo (That's how I interpreted it, at least.)
19:25 lightstep but type VList = [Val]
19:25 lightstep a lazy list of values
19:25 lightstep that doesn't mean that VList (the function) shouldn't be strict
19:25 theorbtwo Donno.
19:29 autrijus mind if I paste a 11 line poem? :)
19:29 gaal :)
19:29 shapr go for it!
19:29 pjcj written in perl6?
19:29 autrijus for $*Larry -> $Elbereth {
19:29 autrijus    our Ship $pugs .= new(:of<mithril elven-glass>);
19:29 autrijus    given $pugs {
19:29 autrijus        $.prow does Shine;
19:29 autrijus        Silver $.mast but none(Oar::Shaven, Sail);
19:29 autrijus        Light  $.lantern := $*Silmaril;
19:29 autrijus        Bright $.banner  := Flame.bless;
19:29 autrijus        when $Elbereth.gleam {
19:29 autrijus            .sail;
19:29 autrijus        }
19:29 autrijus    }
19:29 autrijus }
19:29 autrijus (see src/Main.hs)
19:30 autrijus there's lots of room for improvement :)
19:30 * clkao giggles at autrijus
19:30 autrijus I wonder where should I commit it, though :)
19:31 autrijus PerlMonks, for sure.
19:32 autrijus I tweaked it slightly... submitting to perlmonks
19:32 pjcj examples/poetry ?
19:33 autrijus mayybe.
19:33 autrijus sure.
19:33 theorbtwo Wern't you going to bed?
19:34 wilx has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:35 jabbot pugs - 2634 - minor cosmetic changes
19:38 autrijus true. :)
19:38 * autrijus goes to sleep.
19:38 autrijus r2635.
19:38 autrijus &
19:38 lightstep i wonder if there are rss subscribers for pugs updates
19:39 shapr There's autrijus' journal.
19:39 gaal lightstep, <lj user=pugscode_svn>
19:39 theorbtwo livejournal.com/users/pugscode_svn, that is.
19:39 gaal that's referentially transparent (for me at least :)
19:40 pasteling "ninereasons" at 199.107.164.126 pasted "bug accessing pairs in subroutines" (16 lines, 391B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9849
19:40 theorbtwo Thought I'd expand for those not in the know of the pointless style of LJ.
19:40 meppl has joined #perl6
19:40 gaal point free, i beg you :)
19:42 theorbtwo @pointless foo = \x a b -> b a
19:43 theorbtwo Oh, lambdabot isn't here.
19:43 lambdabot has joined #perl6
19:45 jabbot pugs - 2635 - * hopefully, the first Perl 6 poem.
19:45 jabbot pugs - 2636 - add tests to illustrate a bug, accessing
19:46 theorbtwo @botsnack
19:46 lambdabot Unknown command, try @listcommands.
19:47 mauke @type flip id
19:47 lambdabot flip id :: forall b c. b -> (b -> c) -> c
19:48 mauke yay
19:48 lightstep when describing swing, one usually says (flip ($)) instead of (flip id), to confuse the crowd
19:50 shapr I think ($) is idiomatic in Haskell.
19:50 shapr Of course, so is id
19:51 ninereasons @pointless
19:51 lambdabot (line 1, column 1):
19:51 lambdabot unexpected end of input
19:51 lambdabot expecting white space, natural, identifier, lambda abstraction
19:51 lambdabot or expression
19:51 pernod has quit IRC ()
19:51 * theorbtwo wonders what a natural is.
19:52 theorbtwo @type (->)
19:52 lambdabot bzzt
19:52 lightstep @kind (->)
19:52 lambdabot (->) :: ?? -> ? -> *
19:52 ninereasons @pointless 2+2
19:52 lambdabot 4
19:55 jabbot pugs - 2637 - * add "use v6;"
19:59 * theorbtwo wonders why sometimes --show-iface shows a [Char] and sometimes a String.
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20:25 jabbot pugs - 2638 - Pugs.Lexer: Signatures.
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20:29 metaperl_ $val = $_( 'next' ) if $val <= $last;
20:29 metaperl_ what does $_('next') do?
20:30 gaal what does $_ contain?
20:30 gaal if if contains Code, this is a call.
20:31 metaperl_ I was looking at this: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=453215
20:31 gaal though, interesting:
20:31 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "say $_-less" (4 lines, 151B) at http://sial.org/pbot/9851
20:32 metaperl_ gaal, you know what?
20:32 gaal it's the same thing as $_->('next') in p5
20:33 gaal or
20:33 metaperl_ I think <> is used for named parameter
20:33 gaal &$_('next')
20:33 metaperl_ there is no such thing in p5....
20:33 metaperl_ $_->('next') ... oh yeah
20:33 gaal that was p5
20:33 gaal both
20:33 metaperl_ where is the "." for a method call
20:33 gaal <x y z> is p6 for qw/x y z/
20:33 gaal it's optional in this case.
20:34 gaal see also $next() in that example
20:34 gaal you can spell that $next.() too if you prefer.
20:35 metaperl_ gaal, I meant that named parameters can be passed using a <> syntax: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S06.html
20:35 gaal what section are you linking to? that's a long doc.
20:35 metaperl_ Named parameters
20:35 metaperl_ search for that
20:36 metaperl_ i'm just making a comment that <> has two uses and I got confused... I see what you are doing
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20:36 gaal oh, :justify<right> ? yes, that's like saying justify => 'right'
20:36 gaal also useful in hash lookups
20:37 metaperl_ I dont see the point in having both syntaxes do you?
20:37 stevan metaperl_: I added to that perlmonks post of L~Rs
20:37 metaperl_ I think this is an example currying isn't it: ./pugs -e '$_={say};$_(<asdf>)'
20:37 * metaperl_ checks perlmonks
20:37 gaal %ENV<PUGS_TESTS_CONCURRENT>
20:38 stevan $_(<next>) should work
20:38 gaal sure it does
20:38 gaal metaperl, it's just like having qw in p5.
20:38 gaal you can do things like
20:39 gaal use strict qw(refs)
20:39 Juerd metaperl_: <> is qw, but can also be used for hash subscripting.
20:39 Juerd metaperl_: Which makes it useful for :pair{'subscript'} syntax and &infix:{'operator'} syntax
20:40 Juerd Which you can now spell as :key<value" and &infix:<operator>
20:40 Juerd Which you can now spell as :key<value> and &infix:<operator>
20:40 Juerd Saves a lot of typing.
20:40 Juerd And %hash<key>
20:40 Juerd Instead of %hash{'key'}
20:40 Juerd The difference is greater even when you have multiple values
20:40 gaal ...because %hash{key} no longer works.
20:41 stevan metaperl_: I updated my perlmonks post to use $sub(<next>)
20:41 stevan cause it just looks cooler :P
20:41 Juerd %hash{'first', 'second', 'third'}, :import{'get', 'post', 'head'}, &postcircumfix:{'[', ']'}
20:41 Juerd %hash<first second third>, :import<get post head>, &postcircumfix:<[ ]>
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20:41 metaperl_ Juerd, can you explain :import<get post head>
20:42 metaperl_ %hash<first second third> looks like a hash slice
20:42 Juerd metaperl_: It is equivalent to import => [ 'get', 'post', 'head' ]
20:42 Juerd It *is* a hash slice! neat, huh?
20:42 Juerd .
20:42 metaperl_ oh I see
20:43 metaperl_ that's pretty neat
20:43 Juerd :paths< /tmp /var/tmp ~/tmp >
20:44 Juerd In general, key => 'value' is preferred syntax when building hashes
20:44 gaal ...and you can magically later do
20:44 gaal for $paths -> $path { ... }
20:44 Juerd And :key(value) or :key<value> is preferred syntax when supplying modifiers/adverbs.
20:45 Juerd And, as an extra FREE bonus!!!!! (gratis gratis gratis), you get a free 1 for every bare :pair
20:45 metaperl_ one more thing: &postcircumfix:<[ ]> # the colons are starting to get me mixed up
20:45 Juerd That is, if you write :pair, you get pair => 1
20:45 Juerd metaperl_: A colon in a sub name indicates a special sub.
20:45 metaperl_ special in what way?
20:45 Juerd metaperl_: In this case, it's the [] operator you use after an array.
20:45 Juerd metaperl_: postcircumfix is not something you can define yourself - it's a preset category.
20:45 metaperl_ Juerd are you learning p6 from the synopses? I'm starting to feel behind
20:46 Juerd For all post-circumfix operators
20:46 Juerd metaperl_: No
20:46 Juerd metaperl_: I learn it from p6l, synopses, and by having followed the As and Es from the very beginning.
20:46 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
20:46 Juerd metaperl_: Also, I read books and articles about Perl 6
20:47 * gaal needs sleep - see y'all later
20:47 metaperl_ gnite gaal
20:47 gaal (Juerd, ACK your sensible post to p6l about open, I just wish there was a decision already :)
20:47 Juerd I want write|w, read|r, pipe|p
20:48 Juerd And bidi|rw
20:48 gaal oh, that bit i don't knwo about, since that means changing sigs
20:48 Juerd And if there's a +$mode, let it please accept constants like O_WRCREAT
20:48 gaal starting to look like Getopt...
20:49 Juerd gaal: Again, a decision on the way to define short names would be fun
20:49 gaal so you're tempted to define :append excludes :rw, or thing slike that
20:49 Juerd gaal: Yes
20:49 gaal well, have a ball with that, but that may take a little longer to get done :)
20:50 Juerd Although, of course, rw+append SHOULD be possible.
20:50 gaal anyway, i'm off. tomorrow i'll ci a *basic* version of this.
20:50 Juerd gaal: fail "mutually exclusive arguments" if $foo and $bar;
20:50 Juerd Which can perhaps somehow be a compile time thing
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20:51 gaal Juerd, I believe that's called r+append, not rw+append
20:51 gaal anyway, night :)   &
20:51 Juerd sub open (...) will test { ... } returns IO::Handle { ... }
20:51 Juerd gaal: I thought there was some subtle difference in the initial tell()
20:53 wolverian will test?
20:53 Juerd made up.
20:53 wolverian ah. what does it do?
20:54 wolverian (by the way. I completely agree with you on the :r/< issue on p6l, and I think your mails are well written. thanks for standing up for me!)
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21:44 Shillo Hullo, all!
21:44 * Shillo dances the Upgrade Dance. :)
21:47 lightstep what are temp-ex-output.3813.126  temp-ex-output.5125.19
21:47 lightstep ?
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21:49 theorbtw1 lightstep: No clue.  Where, and what do they appear to contain?
21:49 lightstep they both contain \('Hello', 'Pugs')
21:49 lightstep probably a local artifact
21:50 theorbtw1 Oh, possibly the output of an example, from the examples-testing framework?
21:51 lightstep yes
21:55 lightstep has quit IRC ("wow, it really is late")
21:57 Shillo What exactly is yaml? Spammed me with tons of warnings during compile.
21:58 mauke yaml ain't a markup language
21:58 * Shillo just changed CPU, MB and GPU. And pugs (and compilers, for that matter) seem to have stopped crashing randomly. For now... still running tsts.
22:00 theorbtw1 (Previously, YAML was Yet Another Markup Language, but then some bright soul looked up the def. of markup language, and realized it wasn't.)
22:01 * Shillo svnups, rebuilds...
22:04 Shillo Whoa. This machine is *fast*
22:08 Shillo And stable. Finally! :)
22:08 theorbtw1 ++
22:09 * Shillo tests Morrowind Bootloader (the last time I changed MB, it wouldn't. Boot. Or load)
22:09 Shillo Laters! :)
22:10 theorbtw1 G'luck.
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22:34 Shillo Windows actually survived the hardware change. Of course, there's this minor matter of drivers. I just don't feel like spending 2 hours on that. :)
22:35 Shillo Anyhow... now I have a devel machine. Yay.
22:35 theorbtw1 Yey indeed.  They're handy things to have around when developing.
22:36 Shillo theorbtw1: Esp. the kind that doesn't corrupt data when it overheats.
22:36 * Shillo had the -other- kind.
22:36 * Shillo has high hopes for this thing. :)
22:36 theorbtw1 What are the specs.
22:37 Shillo Athlon64 3000+ (sock 939), EPOX Nforce4 Ultra MB, 1 gig DDR400, Gigabyte 6600GT video card.
22:37 theorbtw1 Nice.
22:37 * Shillo plans to use it for time-wasters other than devel. :)
22:38 Juerd open no longer defaulting to $_
22:38 Juerd Can anyone guess why?
22:39 theorbtw1 gaal was changing the interface earlier.
22:39 Juerd No, I'm talking about Larry's preference.
22:39 Juerd It amazes me  # understatement
22:39 theorbtw1 Oh, I haven't checked p6l lately.
22:39 * Juerd found it a shocking statement.
22:40 theorbtw1 I've been shocked a lot by p6l of late.
22:40 Juerd I'm of the opinion that every operator that has a main argument should be able to default to $_.
22:41 Shillo Hmm, say so on the list? :)
22:41 Juerd I first want to know why Larry wants this.
22:41 Juerd He must have his reasons for it
22:41 Shillo Honestly, I can't remember ever using argless open (or wanting to), so I just don't care either way. :)
22:41 Shillo Yeah.
22:41 Juerd Shillo: That's because in Perl 5, open doesn't return a filehandle
22:41 Shillo You asked him privately?
22:42 Juerd No
22:42 Juerd Why would I do anything privately? The list is there to *use*.
22:42 Shillo Juerd: Duh. Right.
22:42 * theorbtw1 wonders if he should start really follwoing p6l again.
22:42 Shillo Oh, umm, I just thought it was somehow implied, but guess I misunderstood you.
22:42 Shillo (about not asking privately)
22:42 Juerd theorbtw1: There's a highly visible 'BTW' in your name now
22:43 * Shillo <-- confuzzled agent of primal chaos, most of the time.
22:43 Juerd theorbtw1: In Dutch, that's belasting op de toegevoegde waarde -- internationally known as VAT
22:43 Shillo :)
22:43 Juerd theorbtw1: This tax cost me 1500 euros the past 3 months :(
22:43 Juerd And you remind me of that :(
22:43 theorbtw1 It really feels like Larry has started to abandon some "hard things possibe" for a little bit of "easy things possible".
22:43 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
22:43 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
22:43 Juerd Thanks :)
22:43 * Shillo just shelled >100E of PDV right today. :(
22:43 Shillo Croatia has 22%.
22:44 Juerd PDV?
22:44 Juerd We're at 10%
22:44 Shillo Oh, sorry. 'what we call VAT here.
22:44 Juerd eh
22:44 Juerd 19%
22:44 Juerd typo
22:44 Shillo Hehehe!
22:44 shapr 25% here
22:44 Juerd And because I run a company, I pay tax collector.
22:44 theorbtw1 has joined #perl6
22:44 Shillo (and no, here's not in EU yet, but it comes down to the same thing).
22:44 Juerd s/pay/play/
22:44 Shillo 25%?!
22:44 Shillo shapr: Where are you?
22:44 shapr And because I own my own company, I pay the tax collector twice in some cases.
22:44 shapr Sweden, highest VAT in the EU.
22:45 Shillo Woah.
22:45 Juerd I have to add VAT to my invoices, and then collect that, and then pay the same amount to the tax bureau
22:45 Juerd Which sucks.
22:45 Shillo And here 22% nearly killed the economy.
22:45 Juerd I hate VAT :)
22:45 Shillo What sucks here is that courts don't function.
22:45 shapr We work for clients in Germany, and they really don't like our extra 25% tax we're forced to charge.
22:45 theorbtwo Here it's MwST, and I'm not sure what it's at, though I know there's at least two different rates.
22:45 Juerd Shillo: You're both in the european union. You can sell at 0%
22:45 Shillo So, your customers tend to be late with payments. So you pay VAT when you bill but get the money whenever.
22:46 Juerd Shillo: Or, in fact, you should|must.
22:46 Shillo Juerd: I'm not.
22:46 Juerd Oh, sorry, confused shapr and you.
22:46 Juerd Same first two letters.
22:46 Shillo Juerd: Croatia's a candidate, so far.
22:46 Juerd Shillo: Then it really sucks for the germans.
22:46 Juerd Shillo: They have to pay 25% *and* never get it back
22:46 Juerd While locally, they pay 16% and *get it back*
22:47 Khisanth has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:47 Shillo theorbtwo: MWST is Austrian, or both Aus or German?
22:47 Juerd afk
22:47 theorbtwo It's likely the term in both Aus and DE.  I'm in DE.
22:47 * Shillo works for Austrian company, so I visit Graz pretty often.
22:48 theorbtwo (But I'm American, not German.)
22:48 Juerd I thought it was MwSt
22:48 Juerd Not MWST
22:48 Shillo Hmm, and Vienna, on a not-so-regular basis. Guess I could say hi to Leopold sometime. ;)
22:48 Shillo Juerd: To be honest, my German is... nonexistant. :)
22:48 Shillo Juerd: Wouldn't know either way.
22:49 Juerd Shillo: Hallo!
22:49 * Shillo is slowly picking a word here, word there. :)
22:49 Juerd Then it's not nonexistent
22:49 theorbtwo I think MwST.
22:49 Juerd theorbtwo: What does the T stand for?
22:49 Shillo Juerd: Truthfullness of that comment depends on the definition of existence we're discussing. ;)
22:50 mauke http://dict.leo.org/?search=mwst
22:50 * Shillo tries to figure out if he can pass the basic test. Wo ist die toalette? <-- is this correct? ;)
22:50 mauke s/toa/toi/
22:51 mauke but it's phonetically correct
22:51 Shillo Oh. Okay. Hmm. Juerd wins, it's not nonexistent, then. :)
22:51 Juerd Shillo: es gibt keine Toilette! *evil grin*
22:51 * theorbtwo wonders how it got to be MwSt, considering it's apparently all one word when spelled out.
22:51 Juerd theorbtwo: Steuer is also a word of its own.
22:51 Shillo Juerd: I'd get that one if I knew what 'es' is. :)
22:52 Juerd Shillo: "it", and you still don't get it then.
22:52 mauke "es gibt keine" = "there is no"
22:52 Juerd afk, brb
22:52 theorbtwo I suppose that makes some seance.
22:52 theorbtwo Er, sense.
22:52 Shillo :) Hm, most of my colleagues at work actually call it Marwehr (sp?)
22:53 * Shillo is exposed to a lot of spoken German, so...
22:53 mauke Mehrwert?
22:53 Shillo Ah. Right.
22:53 Shillo . o O (I guess)
23:01 Juerd re
23:02 Juerd Shillo: s/Right/Richtig/ :P
23:02 * Juerd used to read that as right-ish.
23:02 Juerd sort of right.
23:04 Shillo Juerd: I know that one, actually. As well as Jawohl.
23:04 Odin-LAP LINKS!
23:05 mauke zwo?
23:05 Odin-LAP Which would be 'left'.
23:08 Juerd mauke: Why is that zwo, by the way, and not zwei?
23:08 Juerd And if after links comes zwo, then why isn't it followed by dro?
23:08 mauke good question.
23:08 mauke probably to avoid confusion between "zwei" and "drei"
23:09 * Juerd imagines German soldiers skipping the every second of four steps...
23:09 mauke http://dict.leo.org/cgi-bin​/dict/urlexp/20021217164424
23:09 * Shillo knows the words arbeit, and morgen. And 'Die ist 1 Uhre' (although I'm not so sure about that one). :)
23:10 Shillo So, later, folks! :)
23:10 justatheory has joined #perl6
23:10 * Shillo will have to hunt down a new power supply in the morning. But so far things look good. :)
23:10 * Juerd knows more German than he likes.
23:11 Shillo has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:12 Juerd mauke: How is it to be surrounded by German?
23:12 Juerd I can tell you that Dutch sucks.
23:12 Juerd (English would be worse though)
23:12 mauke Dutch sounds funny
23:12 Juerd "funny"?
23:13 mauke I can't explain it :-)
23:13 Juerd You could at least try.
23:14 * Juerd thinks german sounds funny because they sort of *sing* when they talk.
23:14 Juerd There's a lot of tone variation.
23:14 * Odin-LAP points in the general direction of Norway, and says that's nothing.
23:15 mauke it has to do with how they speak this weird language with a totally straight face, as if it was normal
23:15 Odin-LAP I maintain that norwegians take singing lessons before learning to speak.
23:15 Juerd In a simple word like "Hallo" or even "Ja?", there can be an entire musical octave.
23:16 Juerd We have the same words, but here they're pronounced much simpler.
23:16 Juerd mauke: "weird"?
23:17 Odin-LAP Juerd: "Simpler" is also known as 'more familiar'. "Weird" is also known as 'unfamiliar'.
23:18 Juerd Nono, it's not just familiarity
23:18 Juerd You can hear the accents when people of different languages speak esperanto
23:18 Juerd Germans sing that too
23:18 Odin-LAP Juerd: Indeed. That's because their language is that way, and it carries over. ;)
23:18 Juerd And Americans have trouble accepting that the pronunciation of vowels is predictable and defined.
23:19 Juerd Odin-LAP: One can say the same thing in their language without singing, yet they all (afai have heard) do sing it.
23:19 Juerd Which is funny.
23:19 Odin-LAP English-speaking folks have trouble accepting that there is a fixed pronunciation of anything at all.
23:19 Juerd Odin-LAP: But Americans have more trouble with this than British.
23:20 Odin-LAP Juerd: Sure. It's also possible to pronounce 'g' somewhere above your gut. The dutch don't, though. >;)
23:20 Juerd Odin-LAP: We have many sorts of g
23:20 Odin-LAP Hm. True. But the british aren't good, though.
23:20 Juerd The 'hard g', the 'soft g', the 'foreign g'
23:20 Odin-LAP Note the smiley. :)
23:21 Juerd I want to know which g you were referring to :)
23:21 mauke "herdenkings-plechtigheid" looks like some sort of nonsense German
23:21 Odin-LAP Hm. Good question. I don't know dutch well enough to answer it ... unfortunately. :(
23:22 mauke "vliegticket" could be children language
23:22 Juerd mauke: No, that'd be herdenkungsplechtichkeit
23:22 Juerd mauke: What do you think about stoomtrein?
23:22 Juerd mauke: And hagelslag?
23:23 Juerd mauke: Do you know what our word 'slim' means? :)
23:24 mauke I don't know what stoomtrein means but it looks vaguely German; hagelslag looks like Hagelschlag; no
23:25 mauke "difficult, sly, smart, cunning, inconvenient"?
23:26 Juerd mauke: Of those, only smart.
23:26 Juerd It gets funny when it's translated to German as Schlimm
23:26 mauke hahaha
23:26 Juerd And that happens.
23:27 Juerd een slimme jongen => ein schlimmer jungen
23:27 mauke ouch
23:28 Juerd yeah.
23:28 Odin-LAP Stoomtrein ... steam locomotive? :D
23:29 Juerd Odin-LAP: trein is train - the entire train pulled by a steam locomotive is called stoomtrein...
23:30 Odin-LAP Ahh. Okay. :)
23:30 theorbtwo Damn, and there was me thinking it referred to storm troopers.
23:30 Juerd heh
23:30 Odin-LAP It's kinda like english with german orthography. ;)
23:30 crysflame steam troopers!
23:30 * crysflame blows hot air at theorbtwo
23:30 mauke ah, like Dampfzug except that's not a word
23:31 Odin-LAP Well, sometimes.
23:31 Juerd mauke: hehehe, right :)
23:31 TreyHarris is C<@list = (0..Inf)> legal?  Or must you say C<@list = (0...)>?
23:31 wolverian it is legal.
23:31 theorbtwo Both are legal, and equivlent.
23:31 TreyHarris thanks
23:31 Juerd TreyHarris: The parens are not needed.
23:32 Juerd TreyHarris: .. in list context returns a list.
23:32 Juerd Which has proven to be a great convenience.
23:32 theorbtwo Didn't it always?
23:32 TreyHarris yeah, but @list = 0..Inf; looks funny to me.  Maybe that's just my Perl 5 trainer intuition fighting with the new P6 gestalt :-)
23:32 Juerd Yes, it has always done this.
23:33 Juerd TreyHarris: If Perl 5 had Inf, it'd be valid Perl 5.
23:33 Juerd TreyHarris: @array = 0..5;
23:33 mauke "gestalt"? that's our word!
23:33 Juerd TreyHarris: Don't call your array "list" - that's misleading and a stupid name anyhow.
23:33 Juerd list of *what*?
23:34 Juerd $data
23:34 Juerd &does_something
23:34 Juerd %mapping
23:34 mauke # comment
23:35 theorbtwo mauke: English has stolen a lot of German philosiphy and psychology words.
23:35 theorbtwo OTOH, they don't always mean the same thing.
23:35 Juerd theorbtwo: Freud's fault.
23:35 theorbtwo Angst and anger are /not/ the same thing in English.
23:35 TreyHarris Juerd: :-P  oh, shush.  i'm not going to put "@list" into real code.  i was asking a question about lists, so @list made perfect sense :-)
23:35 wolverian TreyHarris: that's an array, not a list.
23:35 Juerd theorbtwo: Angst isn't anger anyway.
23:35 Odin-LAP Angst is fear, actually. :)
23:35 Odin-LAP Ich habe Angst!
23:35 Juerd TreyHarris: What is 'real code'?
23:36 theorbtwo Er, right.  Whatever it is in German, it's not quite the same thing in English.
23:36 TreyHarris wolverian: 0..Inf is an array, not a list?
23:36 wolverian TreyHarris: no, @list is an array.
23:36 wolverian TreyHarris: a list assigned to an array promotes to an array. magically!
23:36 TreyHarris Juerd: code meant to do something, rather than code meant to gloss a syntactic concept in the language.
23:36 theorbtwo If you put it in @somethingoranother, it's an array.
23:37 Juerd Ich bin muede und soll eigentlich schlafen muessen
23:37 Juerd (big guess)
23:37 Juerd Gute Nacht, leuten!
23:37 mauke Gute Nacht, und schlaf gut.
23:37 Odin-LAP "should really have to sleep"?
23:37 theorbtwo G'night, mauke.
23:37 theorbtwo Er, G'night, Juerd.
23:38 Juerd danke - gleichfalls
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