Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-05-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Odin-LAP But those may have been a factor -- however, there's also indication that it was for natural reasons.
00:00 Odin-LAP Activity increased slightly after an earthquake in 2000, I recall.
00:00 * theorb calls it time to get off the computer.
00:00 ninereasons the author of that page lists as "destroyed" any geyser that's been tapped for geo-thermal power.
00:01 Odin-LAP WTF?
00:01 Odin-LAP Is he using geyser synonymously with 'hot spring'?
00:01 ninereasons perhaps a partial explanation there, for his belief that Geysir was damaged by people
00:02 * Odin-LAP wonders how he feels about the blue lagoon, then.
00:03 ninereasons anything that was tapped at Rykir, he calls "destroyed"
00:03 ninereasons http://www.wyojones.com/destorye.htm
00:03 Odin-LAP My intarweb isn't working. :/
00:03 ninereasons that's the gist, anyway.
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00:31 Juerd How the hell can one get a literal [ in Kwiki?
00:31 Juerd As in @foo[5]
00:34 Juerd [=@foo[5]]
00:34 ninereasons isn' it with =verbatim or something like that?
00:35 Juerd http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Nomenclature
00:35 Juerd Feel free to add!-
00:37 Juerd Oh, wow, for something using bracketed delimiters, [=...] is pretty STUPID
00:37 Juerd [=@foo[5]] gets rendered as <tt>@foo[5</tt>]
00:38 Juerd Ah well, working around this is too much work.
00:43 wolverian spelling fixes
00:43 Juerd wikis++
00:45 Juerd kwiki--  # no diffs
00:45 wolverian yes.
00:45 wolverian s,lamba,lambda,g
00:45 wolverian now, sleep calls. bye. :)
00:46 Juerd Bye
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01:17 mugwump jabbot: who made you, and where is your source?
01:17 jabbot mugwump: We were discussing you -- not me.
01:17 * mugwump slaps jabbot
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01:21 * mugwump finds autrijus' SVN::Notify::Config
01:24 mugwump bah, I can't put a hook script in my OpenFoundry repo
01:24 obra that would be a nice security hole
01:24 obra (and one that sf.net supported unitl recently)
01:24 mugwump heh
01:24 obra mugwump: jabbot was created by gugod)
01:25 mugwump ok, so ideally, I'd just like to go to a page on rt.openfoundry.org and set up an address to receive commit messages
01:26 mugwump but without either of these options, I'll need to write something to periodically check for new versions then run the appropriate diff commands
01:26 mugwump actually, will svk run post-commit hooks etc?
01:26 mugwump maybe that "something" could just be "svk sync"
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01:28 mugwump Is there an irc channel / rt queue for OpenFoundry?
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01:29 * mugwump finds http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foun​dry/Project/Tracker/?Queue=125
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04:06 pasteling "revdiablo" at 66.218.36.163 pasted "more extensive tests of weird flattening/subscripting behavior" (55 lines, 1.8K) at http://sial.org/pbot/9904
04:07 revdiablo any thoughts on these?
04:08 revdiablo dunno if I'm duplicating anything that already exists, but I just wanted to get down all the behavior we were seeing earlier
04:09 revdiablo maybe I should check this into t/pugsbugs/flattening.t? or somewhere else?
04:17 revdiablo ok, I'll take the silence as a yes. :)
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04:25 jabbot pugs - 2667 - test some broken flattening behavior
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04:47 machack666 fg
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04:59 gaal_ http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html # eval_yaml causes segfault
05:05 jabbot pugs - 2668 - a few tests illustrating a .kv bug
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06:49 nothingmuch oh my
06:49 nothingmuch i just saw a banner: "write 10,000 lines of code in 10 minutes"
06:50 nothingmuch generating code is evil
06:50 nothingmuch why isn't the runtime smart enough to do this stuff?
06:51 castaway ugh
06:51 castaway mornin nm
06:51 nothingmuch morning
06:51 nothingmuch worst of all, to actually get your app to do what you want you have to write something
06:52 nothingmuch reading 10,000 lines of code does not take 10 minutes
06:52 nothingmuch and without reading what you have, how do you know what to add?
06:52 nothingmuch *sigh*
06:55 castaway depends..
06:55 castaway stuff like GUI designers do a fair bit of behin the scenes coding, that isnt all bad
06:55 castaway "behind"
06:59 castaway (at least IMO)
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07:07 nothingmuch i'm not going to trust a system i don't know to generate N thousands of lines for me
07:07 nothingmuch ever
07:07 nothingmuch =/
07:07 nothingmuch even if i know what it's supposed to generate
07:08 nothingmuch unless i'm forced into it, in which case i will learn what it generates (probably not going to save me time)
07:08 nothingmuch or write one myself
07:08 nothingmuch (not bloody likely, i'd rather do this stuff at runtime)
07:11 castaway hmm, but you trust compilers to translate to machine code, and lots of other things
07:11 * castaway shrugs
07:12 castaway 10,000 seems several orders of magnitude too many, but still, i like code generation for quick stuff.. VB works pretty well for its field, for example
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07:14 castaway (If you dont trust things you dont know, how do you ever do anything? :)
07:23 mugwump the lambda calculus of true knowledge can never be reduced to a normal form
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07:42 nothingmuch castaway: compilers take something that's mine and makes it into something else
07:43 nothingmuch code generation of an entirely new web app
07:43 nothingmuch with DB connectivity
07:43 nothingmuch and other goodness
07:43 nothingmuch at 10,000 slocs, in 10 minutes
07:43 nothingmuch is not very transparent
07:43 nothingmuch i have no real place to specify input... You just can't sum 10,000 slocs in 10 minutes of any form of conveyance (english, perl, whatever)
07:44 nothingmuch there has to be some large void defaultness that just doesn't make sense to be that big
07:45 jabbot pugs - 2669 - Remove second instance of self.
07:46 castaway yeah, I said that number was overdoing it mightly..
07:47 nothingmuch so we are in agreement =)
07:47 castaway GUI designers do the same tho, take what you pick as design elements, and turn it into code
07:47 nothingmuch but that's known input
07:48 castaway right
07:48 castaway it seems so, yes :)
07:48 nothingmuch i say "make me some code that impelements the interface to respond to that widget"
07:48 nothingmuch and you get a bajillion tubs
07:48 castaway what are these 10k-lines-of-code things proposing to do?
07:48 nothingmuch s/tubs/stubs/
07:49 castaway lines of code are pointless unless they have some directed purpose :)
07:49 nothingmuch a "web application which features: db connectivity, err, something else, high perfomance, no bugs"
07:49 nothingmuch oh, 'stunning graphics'
07:49 castaway ah :)
07:50 misc_ nothingmuch: "b2b capability
07:50 castaway sounds like one to toss right in the bin
07:50 arcady why not just have a metaclass that does the code generation for you?
07:50 castaway or, just very bad advertising
07:50 arcady buzzword bingo!
07:50 castaway right
07:50 nothingmuch arcady: for this purpose see also (Catalyst|Maypole|RubyOnRails)
07:50 castaway If it implemented that stuff as widgets, with a nice interface to allow use, it would make sense, but generating the code seems crazy
07:51 castaway (I should get around to using zApp someday)
07:51 nothingmuch misc_: i don't understand
07:51 arcady if you have to generate code, it's generally because you need a better language
07:51 * nothingmuch agrees
07:51 misc_ nothingmuch: just a buzzword to add :)
07:52 castaway right
07:52 nothingmuch i even have the same view about snippets
07:52 nothingmuch ah =)
07:52 misc_ nothingmuch: for "something else"
07:53 nothingmuch http://xrl.us/fysk <-- content type screwey. it's a gif
07:54 nothingmuch that's the banner
07:54 nothingmuch this is where the banner links to: http://www.ironspeed.com/products/DownloadNow.aspx
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07:56 castaway $1995 !?
07:57 arcady hey, it's a good deal!
07:57 castaway sale, enterprise edition for just $3145 !
07:57 castaway no thanks :)
07:57 arcady look how many lines of code you can write!
07:57 arcady perl and ruby programmers suck, they write so many fewer lines of code
07:57 castaway of gobbledegook? lots :)
07:57 arcady that's so much less productive : )
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07:59 castaway *g*
08:01 lightstep omg, i can't wait for the video to load
08:02 castaway video?
08:03 mugwump http://lists.utsl.gen.nz/mail​man/listinfo.cgi/pugs-commits  # for those interested, svn commit messages from pugs repo
08:03 lightstep yes, where they show how to build an app in 5 minutes (actually, the video is 6:19)
08:03 castaway ah
08:03 lightstep http://ironspeed.com/products/ProductVideo.aspx
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08:11 lightstep examples/shuffle.p6 is broken
08:11 castaway then fix it, dear lisa, dear lisa.. :)
08:11 lightstep i don't understand the problem
08:12 lightstep that's sumething with the `sub' syntax
08:13 lightstep oh, it's not that
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08:25 jabbot pugs - 2670 - fix examples/shuffle.p6
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08:55 bsb nothingmuch around?
08:55 jabbot pugs - 2671 - * Implement (rvalue only) `%hash.pick`,
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09:51 bsb Does this cause anyone else trouble:  my $s = 'a'; sub eg { $s .= 'b' }
09:51 * luqui tries
09:52 luqui geez
09:52 bsb Internal error?
09:52 luqui every time I want to try something I have to recompile everything
09:52 luqui because there's so much progress on pugs
09:52 bsb Ok, let me know in 20 minutes
09:52 luqui haha
09:53 bsb I get: Internal error while running expression: unexpected "s" expecting ";" or end of input
09:53 luqui I always find it disconcerting when I install build a new piece of software and see "no rule to make target test"
09:53 luqui I think the best thing Perl has done to software development is to make test suites culturally mandatory
09:54 bsb What's missing test?
09:55 luqui rosegarden
10:03 castaway umm, isnt it somethihng other than .= these days?
10:03 luqui ahh that would be the problem
10:03 luqui ~=
10:03 castaway ~= .. right
10:03 arcady .= would be an odd operator indeed
10:04 luqui it exists
10:04 nothingmuch bsb: pong
10:04 castaway (unless you're writing some odd looking method stuff
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10:04 bsb ah!
10:04 bsb no, just p5 thinking
10:04 nothingmuch try a \n between the semi colon and the sub decl
10:05 nothingmuch it looks to me like parser smell
10:05 luqui I think he wants to call the 'b' method (quotes and all) on the string 'a' and assign it back into $s
10:05 nothingmuch i think the error happens before that
10:06 luqui there really is an error?
10:06 nothingmuch bsb: I get: Internal error while running expression: unexpected "s" expecting ";" or end of input
10:06 bsb nothingmuch: in t/subroutines/splat_rw.t there's a test for *@list is rw , what's the source?
10:06 nothingmuch bsb: that's l~r's test
10:06 luqui no error here
10:06 nothingmuch he was making sure that splatting and is rw don't make sense when used together
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10:07 luqui oh
10:07 bsb S06/Perl5ish  has sub swap (*@_ is rw)
10:07 bsb is it a special case?
10:07 nothingmuch oh well =P
10:08 nothingmuch it's either a bug in the test or the design ;-
10:08 nothingmuch )
10:08 luqui design
10:08 nothingmuch so how do you do assign to an arbitrary number of args
10:09 nothingmuch i think it's bad sstyle
10:09 nothingmuch but it might be useful
10:09 luqui there's something going on there like sub swap (*@_ is context(rw)), for a 'context' ne 'context'
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10:13 bsb I'm not getting the 'context'
10:13 * castaway wonders if someone needs to go thru Pugs and try out "Perl5 syntax" stuff, and make it give sensible errors
10:13 luqui that would be very wise for "real" perl 6
10:14 luqui so it might be a good exercise
10:14 nothingmuch in "real" perl 6 wont you have to say 'use v6' to make it p6?
10:14 bsb Aren't we trying to say @_ contents are rw?
10:14 luqui yeah, but people are still going to make p5 brainfarts
10:14 luqui all the time
10:14 bsb I can vouch for that
10:15 luqui no, *@_ contents shouldn't be rw
10:15 luqui well, unless it's declared without a signatue at all
10:15 luqui then they are
10:15 luqui and the implicit declaration is the one that's tripping us up
10:15 jabbot pugs - 2672 - $1 now $! in eval test
10:16 castaway nothing, yes.. but my point is that you might forget halfway thru programming, and you'll get those lovely "internal errors" instead of "you idiot, use '~=' instead of '.=" :)
10:17 luqui right
10:17 luqui call them the YIEs
10:17 castaway YIE?
10:17 broquaint Or PIEs.
10:17 luqui or LIEs
10:17 luqui "Legacy Idiocy Errors"
10:17 castaway ,)
10:21 luqui redhat needs to be overthrown, and gentoo needs to get easy to install so that it can overthrow it
10:21 castaway gentoo is hard to install?
10:21 luqui last time I checked
10:21 * castaway just followed the instructions
10:22 luqui pretend you'd never seen a shell command before
10:22 castaway ah, well
10:22 castaway It could do with a frontend, yes
10:22 luqui plus, the net drivers don't always work (which is why I'm on fedora)
10:23 castaway and something better than those fugly python (?) scripts ,)
10:23 luqui haha
10:23 luqui yeah, dood, get with the times, OSX uses perl for everything!
10:23 luqui for various definitions for everything
10:23 castaway really all that annoys me there is that ctrl-cing out of most of them gets a whole page of python errors
10:23 castaway its a little shocking at first
10:24 luqui I think larry wants that for perl to some extent
10:24 castaway the errors?
10:24 luqui don't know what to think
10:24 luqui yeah
10:24 castaway eh?
10:24 luqui eh?
10:24 castaway really, its much nicer to have to apply a commandline arg to get more error text, than the other way around
10:25 luqui the question is, what if you have trouble reproducing your error
10:26 luqui and we'd rather not leave dump files lying around
10:27 * castaway shrugs
10:27 castaway I'd like for the user to have a clear way to do things..
10:27 castaway preferably with no errors when genuinely just trying to close an app :)
10:28 luqui maybe ^Z; kill -SEGV %
10:28 luqui then you can have your pretty ^C
10:28 castaway icky :)
10:28 luqui maybe perl can intercept SIGQUIT to do an icky exit
10:28 luqui so ^C: clean exit; ^\ icky exit
10:29 castaway for example
10:29 castaway I dont really care how.. I just hate those error screens.. :)
10:38 nothingmuch C+ +, oh how i loath thee
10:38 nothingmuch well, MFC really
10:38 nothingmuch *sigh*
10:47 bsb "control exceptions" in a block are redo, last, next and the like, right?
10:48 broquaint Yep.
10:50 bsb Thanks
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10:55 jabbot pugs - 2673 - test pointy subs
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11:10 nothingmuch hola theorbtw1
11:10 nothingmuch ~~
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11:14 gaal|work luqui, there-p?
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11:15 jabbot pugs - 2674 - * `$thread.kill`, `$thread.detach`, `$th
11:15 jabbot pugs - 2675 - * minor tweaks on cashiers.p6 syntax
11:15 jabbot pugs - 2676 - :todo<feature> added
11:16 castaway ooh, threads?
11:16 elmex has quit IRC ("uni")
11:17 theorbtwo Allo, nothingmuch.
11:17 nothingmuch castaway: yeah, we've had them for a while =)
11:18 castaway hmm, irssi shouldnt care on /msg, what server someone is using
11:21 nothingmuch don't messages get sent to your server, and from there to someone's server, and from there to someone?
11:21 happierbee has joined #perl6
11:21 luqui gaal|work: #t
11:21 castaway right, but Im on slashnet and freenode at the same time
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11:22 nothingmuch oh
11:23 nothingmuch so it doesn't know what network, not what server?
11:23 nothingmuch but the user name is unambiguous? yeah, that is silly... ={
11:23 nothingmuch tr/{/(/;
11:23 castaway umm, yeah
11:23 * castaway isnt into IRC jargon
11:24 nothingmuch it's not jargon, it's structure ;-)
11:24 lightstep has joined #perl6
11:24 nothingmuch in p2p jargon: an IRC server is an über-peer in a p2p network
11:24 happierbee has left
11:24 nothingmuch only that it's überpeer friends are known in advance
11:25 nothingmuch and, err, that's it =)
11:26 theorbtwo We've had threads for a while now, castaway.
11:26 castaway I guess I missed them.. are they specced?
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11:32 nothingmuch i think not
11:32 nothingmuch grep -r 'async' t examples
11:32 lightstep revision 2676 doesn't compile
11:33 lightstep some ugly code makes a mess
11:33 lightstep is autrijus on it, or should i look?
11:34 * nothingmuch hasn't seen him in a while
11:38 gaal|work luqui - just thought it's worth mentioning how java dumps a stack trace for the thread list when you enter ctrl-break on the console.
11:39 nothingmuch death should not include a stack trace though
11:40 gaal|work this does not require death, nothingmuch
11:40 nothingmuch it really hinders user friendlyness when trying to first run a program, the error message for "component foo is missing" is part of a page long dump
11:40 luqui we'll probably do something like that by default
11:40 theorbtwo IRC isn't very p2p, even if you ignore the clients.
11:40 luqui overridable, of course
11:40 nothingmuch gaal|work: yeah, i reckoned =)
11:40 theorbtwo It requires centralized planning; otherwise you get loops in the network structure.
11:41 nothingmuch theorbtwo: well, that's true... but the message passing itself is a bit like p2p
11:41 nothingmuch but in that sense SMTP is also p2p
11:41 gaal|work then again the developer is always glad if errors include a stack trace :)
11:41 gaal|work ^error reports
11:41 * luqui loves firefox
11:41 nothingmuch gaal|work: that should be easy to add
11:42 lightstep funny thing (hebrew): http://www.tapuz.co.il/tapuzforum/main/V​iewmsg.asp?forum=247&amp;msgid=52154687
11:42 theorbtwo SMTP is very much p2p.
11:42 luqui now all we need is a way to embed pugs in it
11:42 lightstep the nazis used fluorine, how can the state of israel put it in water?
11:42 luqui <script language="perl">...</script>
11:43 gaal|work luqui, activestate perl did that
11:43 luqui really?
11:43 luqui cool
11:43 luqui probably didn't catch on...
11:43 castaway sure, perlscript++
11:43 gaal|work called activescript, i think
11:43 castaway well it only works on win
11:43 gaal|work perlscript, thatis' it
11:43 gaal|work luqui: on another note, see XUL::Node on CPAN
11:43 castaway AND with activestate installed.. Id assume thats not really a popn worth targettin
11:44 luqui woah
11:44 luqui WOAH
11:44 castaway hmm?
11:44 luqui I've been wanting this forEVER
11:45 * castaway kept meaning to try it and never did
11:45 castaway it works in anything that vbscript and jscript etc works in, on win.. irrc (WSH)
11:45 luqui I expect this is how gmail does its thang
11:45 castaway yet you never looked?
11:45 nothingmuch the XUL/rails demo was very impressive
11:45 luqui XUL isn't exactly a descriptive name
11:49 castaway well thats also browser specific
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11:56 luqui mornin' folks, good night
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12:05 jabbot pugs - 2677 - fix type error
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12:35 jabbot pugs - 2678 - Cosmetic fix to t/builtins/arrays_and_ha
12:46 jabbot pugs - 2679 - Added svn:ignores to src/.
12:55 jabbot pugs - 2680 - Added tests for state().
12:55 jabbot pugs - 2681 - Added usual svn properties to t/.
12:55 jabbot pugs - 2682 - Cosmetic fix to t/var/state.t.
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13:00 Limbic_Region greetings and salutations all
13:05 jabbot pugs - 2683 - * svn:ignored "tests.yml" in /.
13:07 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=453821 # Adventures in multilingualism (p5, python, p6)
13:11 Limbic_Region out of curiosity - do coroutines work in pugs yet ( yield ) ?
13:14 nothingmuch the problem with pugs is that if you have taken an 8 hour mental break
13:14 nothingmuch the quickest way to check for these things is grep -r t/ examples/
13:14 nothingmuch and then figure out if it's todo or not
13:14 nothingmuch like, say, you went to sleep
13:14 nothingmuch then you're no longer up to date
13:14 puetzk nothingmuch: svn log -rBASE:HEAD is a really nice feature :-)
13:15 Limbic_Region nothinmuch - I just about fell out when hardburn told me the reason why he wasn't using Pugs was because it didn't have a feature he wanted
13:15 Limbic_Region I asked him when was the last time he checked
13:15 Limbic_Region he replied - "a couple of weeks ago"
13:15 nothingmuch hah
13:15 nothingmuch what was the said feature?
13:15 jabbot pugs - 2684 - Added tests for temp().
13:16 Limbic_Region I don't remember exactly but it was something to do with OO
13:16 Limbic_Region something that could be done now even without full OO implementation though
13:16 Limbic_Region IIRC
13:17 nothingmuch ooh well
13:17 Limbic_Region I keep poking and prodding him
13:17 Limbic_Region he is another very smart young man
13:17 nothingmuch later he might blame you for addicting him
13:18 Limbic_Region hmmm - he probably would take offense to that
13:18 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - that's probably true
13:20 Limbic_Region so since I am using a binary distribution that doesn't include the t/ directory - you mind grepping for "yield" for me?
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13:22 Limbic_Region nothing in the examples directory that I see
13:22 autrijus Limbic_Region: where is said that perl6 will have yield()?
13:23 autrijus we have yield() for threads
13:23 autrijus (yielding control)
13:23 Limbic_Region autrijus - I am not sure I saw "yield" specifically, but coroutines for sure
13:23 autrijus where exactly?
13:23 * Limbic_Region will look for references
13:23 autrijus I see nothing about coroutines in synopsis
13:23 autrijus except in a passing reference in lazy gather/take
13:24 autrijus which is not quite the same.
13:24 * puetzk has seen some coroutine discussion for parrot, though that doesn't mean perl6 will expose it
13:25 autrijus sure, parrot has coro
13:25 Limbic_Region puetzk - that's probably my problem
13:25 autrijus but I need concrete syntax and semantics to implement this sort fo thing :)
13:25 * Limbic_Region spent so long not paying attention to p6.l and only paying to p6.i that I think my boundaries are getting blurred
13:25 jabbot pugs - 2685 - Added OO aspects of temp() to t/var/temp
13:26 autrijus I think we can trivially do coroutines with lightweight share-everything threads.
13:26 autrijus in the interpreter core, that is
13:27 autrijus but not sure at all how to expose it at the language layer.
13:27 * Limbic_Region is still looking
13:28 lightstep or as a perl6 library with reified continuations?
13:29 lightstep like the examples in scheme
13:29 autrijus lightstep: sure, that works too
13:30 Limbic_Region autrijus - found it
13:30 Limbic_Region but it hasn't been written yet
13:31 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=332117 # Perl6 Timeline By Apocalypse
13:31 Limbic_Region chapter 17
13:31 autrijus well, write it!
13:31 autrijus docs/s17.pod
13:32 Limbic_Region that means I would have to read all the RFCs and see what Larry has said about them right?
13:32 Limbic_Region 17 talks about threads, asyncronous I/O - theres a lot more there than just coroutines
13:33 lightstep where is the perl6 timeline picture that was inspired by "wearing the hair shirt"?
13:33 autrijus lightstep: http://haskell.org/hawiki/AutrijusTang has one
13:34 Limbic_Region autrijus - how about I post to p6.l with a specific coroutine question
13:34 Odin_ has joined #perl6
13:34 Limbic_Region I don't think I am qualified to write S17
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13:35 autrijus Limbic_Region: sure..
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13:43 puetzk somehow that made me think of http://www.frozenreality.co.u​k/comic/bunny/index.php?id=91
13:43 puetzk but hopefully not :-)
13:44 puetzk perhaps given the pace of recent development, something more along the lines of http://www.frozenreality.co.u​k/comic/bunny/index.php?id=44
13:44 Odin- Bunny is crazy.
13:44 puetzk indeed
13:48 Limbic_Region autrijus - message sent
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13:52 clkao Writing Makefile for PAR
13:52 clkao The 'Autrijus' method does not exist in the 'inc' path!
13:52 clkao Please remove the 'inc' directory and run Makefile.PL again to load it.
13:52 clkao Autrijus method!
13:53 lightstep Makefile.PL worked here a few revisions ago, and hasn't changed since then
13:53 Limbic_Region clkao - the Autrijus method is well defined "trade test for feature"
13:53 gaal|work Juerd++; # two-dimensional zip example in p6-l - lol
14:01 * autrijus faints
14:01 autrijus http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20827
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14:06 Limbic_Region autrijus - does that make your life easier or harder?
14:06 adamc00 has joined #perl6
14:08 lightstep compiling pugs really is no fun
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14:12 theorbtwo I think Larry is going insane.
14:12 theorbtwo Er, insaner.
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14:21 autrijus Limbic_Region: I think I'll have a LarryWhim.hs
14:21 autrijus that defines the "knobs"
14:21 theorbtwo Just make it change behavior on rand > .5?
14:22 autrijus MkLarryWhim { unlimitedDereference = False, ... }
14:22 nnunley_ 15:01 < autrijus> http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20827
14:22 nnunley_ Doh.
14:22 autrijus lightstep: "make unoptimised"
14:22 lightstep autrijus, but then it's no fun
14:23 autrijus eh? :)
14:23 autrijus fwiw, I mostly just use "make ghci"
14:23 lightstep if the wow, cool
14:23 lightstep s/ if the//
14:24 Limbic_Region autrijus - so far I haven't gotten any answer expect WRT coroutines
14:24 autrijus there's two answers
14:24 autrijus but not from @larry
14:24 * Limbic_Region thought luke was in @larry ?
14:24 autrijus oh, he is
14:25 autrijus had not see his mail yet
14:25 Limbic_Region he was the one with the gather/take answer
14:25 Limbic_Region which isn't at all what I was asking
14:25 autrijus actually gather/take isn't a _bad_ answer
14:25 autrijus because lazy list is a form of coroutine
14:26 autrijus but problem is the interleaving semantics may or may not be the same as a traditional coroutine is
14:26 autrijus esp. when there are other lazy lists involved
14:26 autrijus in the computation
14:27 autrijus http://haskell.org/hawiki/PythonGenerator maybe related.
14:30 Limbic_Region and now Luke and I are accidently having a discussion off-list
14:30 scook0 I just realised why my 'make optimised' was taking so long
14:31 scook0 Somebody had put "unoptimised :: optimized" in the Makefile
14:31 scook0 Fixed now
14:31 autrijus danke
14:31 scook0 s/make optimised/make unoptimised/
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14:38 Limbic_Region heh - that's one way to skew the numbers *grin*
14:38 Limbic_Region off-list to on-list discussion has been restored - I see Luke's point and don't disagree with it - I am asking questions not making suggestions
14:39 autrijus Limbic_Region: fwiw, I see Luke's point too.
14:39 autrijus it's just he is simplifying stuff a bit.
14:39 autrijus because when there are multiple Lazy lists involved
14:39 autrijus in each other's production
14:39 autrijus and at least one of it involved external IO
14:40 autrijus then a python generator's behaviour does not neccessarily agree with a lazy list based generator.
14:41 autrijus but maybe we can explicitly define the lazy list generator's semantics as a coroutine.
14:41 autrijus that may be the way to go.
14:41 Limbic_Region did my last reply come through?
14:41 autrijus i.e. a gather{} always saves control stack
14:41 Limbic_Region I hope so
14:42 Limbic_Region basically I said I am not indicating behavior I would like to see only asking if a decision has been made so I can write tests
14:42 Limbic_Region and then I say, ok - I lied - I do have an opinion (not on behavior but syntax) - it should at least resemble coroutines in other languages
14:43 autrijus I believe iblech offered a reformulatin.
14:45 * Limbic_Region is catching up
14:45 Limbic_Region I spent a fair amount of time with Luke getting our entire conversation back on-list
14:48 Limbic_Region so gather/take is the only ruled on stuff at this point
14:48 Limbic_Region *shrug*
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15:02 gaal|work nothingmuch, ping
15:02 nothingmuch pong
15:03 gaal|work hey. remember http://sial.org/pbot/9831 ? that bare 'svn' in the doc stanza, it's not supposed to be there is it?
15:04 nothingmuch svn up
15:04 gaal|work but you're already after an svn up.
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15:29 Juerd Hey, freenode's back
15:29 Juerd Neat.
15:29 gaal|work hey Juerd.
15:30 * Limbic_Region didn't know freenode went missing
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15:42 wolveria1 irssi-- # what do you mean can't call my ->new()?
15:42 jhorwitz autrijus: ping
15:42 autrijus jhorwitz: pong
15:43 autrijus perlbot: nopaste
15:43 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
15:43 jhorwitz if you can eval an IMC buffer, will you still need to be able to read .imc files?
15:44 autrijus no
15:44 autrijus evalling a buffer is enough
15:44 jhorwitz that's the answer i was looking for.  ;-)
15:44 pasteling "autrijus" at 220.132.132.105 pasted "for jhorwitz" (24 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/9919
15:44 autrijus ok. I need to run for dinner
15:45 autrijus that nopaste may or may not be useful to you -- I think you may already have it figured out
15:45 * autrijus eagerly waits for eval_parrot()
15:45 autrijus be back in a bit... &
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16:40 Limbic_Region ok - hash versus junctions question - if you want to only add items to an array if they are not already in the array, would you prefer push @foo, $value if $value eq none(@foo) or the standard if ! exists $seen{$value} ?
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16:49 Juerd Limbic_Region: Hash, for great justice, ehm, efficiency.
16:49 Juerd Limbic_Region: I'd probably create a type that does both Array and Hash, where the hash uses reverse logic: give the value, get back the index
16:51 Limbic_Region Juerd - I thought about it right after I wrote it and smacked forehead
16:51 Juerd Limbic_Region: This can be a repeated linear search as with $value eq none(@foo), but when needed optimized to use a hash internally
16:51 Limbic_Region if it was a one shot deal it is up in the air for me
16:51 Juerd Limbic_Region: Abstraction's good.
16:51 Limbic_Region if you are going to keep doing it is silly to use a junction
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16:51 lightstep ‰/quit
16:51 Limbic_Region Juerd - will share with you why I was asking
16:51 lightstep has quit IRC ("leaving")
16:51 Juerd Limbic_Region: Parse error
16:52 Juerd 18:54 < Limbic_Region> if you are going to keep doing it is silly to use a junction
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16:52 Juerd I don't know what that means
16:52 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=453774
16:52 Limbic_Region meaning if the push @array, $value was only going to be executed one time then performance really isn't a concern
16:53 Limbic_Region if you are going to test each time you add an element and you expect that to be a number of times it is silly to use the junction
16:53 * Limbic_Region realized that right after he wrote it
16:53 Juerd I find your perl style funny, with the whitespace within ().
16:54 Limbic_Region Juerd - I started doing that with single argument/parameters but not with multiple - haven't really decided if I like it yet
16:54 Juerd If it helps you decide, know that I don't :)
16:55 Juerd I use whitespace in brackets that construct
16:55 Juerd Not in brackets that group
16:55 Juerd Or in subscripting brackets
16:55 Juerd (1, 2)
16:55 Juerd [ 1, 2 ]
16:55 Juerd foo(1, 2)
16:55 Limbic_Region I know you are very particular about your style
16:55 Juerd @foo[1, 2]
16:56 Limbic_Region I am still quite maleable
16:56 Limbic_Region given the way I used to code in BASIC - "I've come a long way baby"
16:56 Juerd Now comes the funny example: foo(( 1, 2 ), 3)
16:56 Juerd But that should have been written as foo([ 1, 2 ], 3) anyway.
16:57 Juerd Limbic_Region: I come from BASIC too and have learned to not use that as an excuse :)
16:57 Limbic_Region I'm not using it as an excuse - just as a reference point for relativity
16:57 Juerd Same thing
16:58 Juerd :)
16:58 Limbic_Region not at all
16:59 Limbic_Region if you are going to evaluate where you believe someone is on a path to where you feel they should be - to judge their progress you need to know where they started
17:00 Juerd In where people start, I choose to ignore the BASIC part entirely
17:00 Juerd As that's too different from Perl.
17:00 Limbic_Region brb - helping diotalevi with a Pugs/GHC issue at the Monastery
17:03 Limbic_Region Juerd - I am still not sure you are seeing my point though I am not sure it is worth trying to make
17:03 nothingmuch_ ooh! diotalevi is coming on board?! HURAAH!
17:03 Limbic_Region trying very hard nothingmuch
17:04 nothingmuch_ (you can lure him by saying he will already have positive karma, before even showing up!
17:04 nothingmuch_ Limbic_Region++
17:04 nothingmuch_ diotalevi++
17:04 Limbic_Region right now his problem is knowing if he built GHC right (wants to know if there is a test suite) since he can't find or doesn't believe there is a binary build for Sparc/NetBSD
17:05 nothingmuch_ pugs is a good enough test suite, methinks =)
17:06 simcop2387-vnc has joined #perl6
17:06 Limbic_Region nothinmuch - would you mind joining the CB and helping him
17:06 Limbic_Region I need to run to a meeting
17:06 nothingmuch_ sure
17:06 nothingmuch_ should I pretend to be naive?
17:06 nothingmuch_ ah, nevermind
17:07 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
17:07 Limbic_Region Juerd - I think anyone who uses what they used to do as an excuse for not moving forward is just that - an excuse - someone that is willing/trying to move forward but explaining past influences to help others appreciate the relative progress isn't making excuses
17:07 Limbic_Region and on that note - I am off
17:09 nothingmuch stevan: bonk
17:09 nothingmuch (which is more violent than ping)
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17:13 nothingmuch kill CONT => pidof(stevan);
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17:37 Juerd Today's a very busy day on p6l
17:37 Juerd Over 60 messages already
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17:55 Juerd afk
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18:16 Corion r2697 - http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - 4741 ok, 51 failed
18:19 ninereasons What are the svn repository targets for perl6_doc and Perl6-Bible ?
18:19 ninereasons (alluded to in http://sial.org/pbot/9831)
18:20 nothingmuch see the top of util/catalog_tests.pl
18:20 nothingmuch and delete the line with just 'svn'
18:20 nothingmuch it's bullshit
18:20 ninereasons thank you nothingmuch
18:21 nothingmuch =)
18:21 nothingmuch please note that my machine is SMP
18:21 ninereasons heh, I mean, "thank you much, nothingmuch"
18:21 nothingmuch you might not want to do parallel testing, etc
18:22 * nothingmuch thinks of smoking his weekly cigarette
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18:26 ninereasons is the perl6_doc the "official" set of AE&S , nothingmuch ?
18:27 nothingmuch yep
18:27 nothingmuch from svn.perl.org
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18:43 Corion Heh. Seems like I got $*PID working on Win32 now ...
18:44 Corion ... so I can now hunt down some other stuff that needs Win32 API interaction. I'm not sure if my code is good, because I couldn't get it to compile with an "unsafe" sprinkled in.
18:48 hlen_ has joined #perl6
18:50 Corion Whoops - the build broke, because I left a syntax error in ... :(
18:53 lightstep here is breaks at Pugs/Compat.hs
18:53 Corion lightstep: Yep - just committing the fixed version, sorry
18:53 Corion r2700
18:55 elmex has joined #perl6
18:55 lightstep funny, it's not clear what the error is
18:56 Corion lightstep: It is the "unsafe". Once that gets removed, it compiles.
18:56 Corion ... not that I'm not sure if the "unsafe" would be significant. But as the pid doesn't change during the course of the program, I don't care much.
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18:57 lightstep unsafe is the default
18:58 lightstep but i get a warning on line 47, and then make exits with "Error 1"
18:59 Corion lightstep: Weird - with r2700 ?
18:59 lightstep yes
18:59 Corion Aiieeee - and now I get a segfault from Pugs.
18:59 Corion lightstep: Then maybe my #ifdef magic is broken ...
18:59 Corion you're not using Win32, are you?
18:59 lightstep it probably is
19:00 lightstep oh, wait, not
19:00 lightstep but pugs_config.h is strange
19:00 Corion lightstep: I haven't touched that ... I hope ...
19:01 lightstep i took a look at it, and it still says PUGS_VERSION "6.2.0" PUGS_DATE "April 13, 2005"
19:03 Corion lightstep: That's weird. Kill it and start fresh?
19:04 lightstep tried it
19:04 lightstep apparently, you should remove the import of System.Posix.Internals
19:04 lightstep that fixed it here
19:05 lightstep or, alternatively, move it to the non-posix part (if it needs it)
19:06 Corion lightstep: Ah - that's a leftover of my wild goose chase... Sorry!
19:12 Corion (fixed in r2701)
19:12 lightstep yeah, i saw
19:13 Corion lightstep: I mentioned it for the convenience of the backloggers :)
19:14 lightstep it's really bothering there're no regular smoke tests
19:14 erg255 has joined #perl6
19:15 Corion lightstep: Well, it would bother me more to have my Win32 box run all the time. But yes, an automated message onto irc with the smoke results would be nice
19:21 jhorwitz autrijus: ping
19:29 G2 has joined #perl6
19:38 ninereasons wiping out and then replacing the src/ directory sometimes makes weird problems go away.
19:39 lightstep probably when Makefile changes too much that make clean isn't effectivy any more?
19:40 ninereasons or perhaps a few Haskell artifacts from previous builds do not really go away with make clean;
19:41 Corion I think some .o aren't getting cleaned out properly, but I always wipe src/ and check out fresh whenever that happens instead of investigating
19:46 mj41 has joined #perl6
19:47 mj41 r2700, WinXP,  -todo 933/4790 subtests failed, 80.52% okay.
19:50 mj41 80.52 percent Perl6. Nice work.
19:50 mj41 Any volunteers for t/statements/for.t  (  30    3  10.00%  28-30  ) ?
19:52 mj41 'for @list.values -> $num is rw { $num++ }' and such
19:53 lightstep the `for' implementation is a little long
19:53 lightstep lines 315-339
19:55 nothingmuch autrijus++
19:55 nothingmuch i just realized pugs has made me a more effective programmer, due to exposure to haskell
19:55 nothingmuch even though I don't know haskell yet
19:55 ninereasons competence by osmosis ?
19:56 nothingmuch yes, you could say that =)
19:56 nothingmuch althought his is not so much competence
19:56 Juerd nothingmuch: Can you give a real world example of what you did now and what you would otherwise have done?
19:56 nothingmuch i could do this stuff before
19:56 nothingmuch it's just nowI'm doing it nicer
19:56 nothingmuch Juerd: plentiful recursion to clean structure up is coming out much more naturally
19:56 nothingmuch i didn't think of using the more functional way that often before
19:56 nothingmuch being an OOP head
19:57 Juerd I see
19:57 Juerd OO is harmful if it's the only tool you have
19:57 nothingmuch but a bit of hacking in haskell forced me to get used to it
19:57 nothingmuch it's not the only tool I had, it's just the one i used most naturally, but I agree
19:57 nothingmuch i don't feel harmed by my preference
19:57 Juerd You said it was less effective
19:58 nothingmuch my previous preference
19:58 nothingmuch you could s/effective/elegant/
19:58 nothingmuch maybe not maintainable
19:58 nothingmuch but actually I agree, and I shouldn't argue
19:58 lightstep what is cxtSlurpyAny ?
19:58 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - how did things with diotalevi go?
19:58 nothingmuch although I don't agree with OOP being the only tool I had ;-)
19:58 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: he is bold, and I have no time
19:58 nothingmuch he's bootstrapping by the docs
19:59 nothingmuch and I have to get real work done
19:59 hlen_ has quit IRC ("#debian_ - for a better freenode")
20:01 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - his claim is that there is no binary build of GHC for Sparc/FreeBSD
20:01 nothingmuch i have no idea if that's true or not
20:01 nothingmuch but he's bootstrapping
20:03 Limbic_Region yeah - I told him I didn't know how to help him either because of the bootstrapping problem
20:04 Limbic_Region he said what problem (being bold)
20:04 metaperl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:04 Limbic_Region that's about the time I had to go to a meeting
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20:44 Corion Pugs/Compat.hs is mostly evolving into Pugs/Compat/Win32.hs - should this be split up one day, or should this be kept in Compat.hs for the time being?
20:44 elmex_ has joined #perl6
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20:49 Juerd I HAVE A NEW DOMAIN NAME
20:49 Juerd AND I LIKE IT VERY MUCH
20:49 Juerd I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT THOUGH
20:49 Juerd It is perl6.nl
20:50 Corion Juerd: You can alias it to pugscode.org for the time being :-))) Or set up a nopaste handler for #perl6 :)
20:50 Juerd The problem with aliases is that they create expectations
20:51 Juerd I want it to be its own site
20:51 Juerd That can be a single page with a link
20:51 Juerd You see, I want to keep the possibility of using it for commercial purposes when perl6 is released
20:52 webmind like what ?
20:52 Juerd Like a listing of dutch perl professionals who can help learn and/or migrate to perl6
20:53 webmind give it some what generic perl6 related content that'll fit with a purpose you might have later for it ?
20:53 Juerd Duh :)
20:53 Juerd The content is the hard part.
20:54 Juerd I could make it a wiki
20:54 Juerd But that'd require finding one that doesn't suck first
20:55 bd_ has quit IRC ("I was on the bleeding-edge... and now I need a tourniquet")
20:56 Corion Juerd: CGI::Wiki is a decent wiki toolkit IMO. There is also mojomojo, which has fancy features.
20:56 Corion (like "live preview")
20:57 * Arathorn likes moinmoin, if you can swallow the .py medicine..
20:57 integral write a perl6 wiki...
20:57 Juerd integral: Hm, nice idea
20:57 Juerd A pugs based web server with a tiny wiki
20:58 Juerd I quite like the sound of that
20:58 Juerd Do we have HTTP::Daemon yet? :)
20:58 Arathorn wasn't one of the first perl wikis only about a 40 line CGI?
20:58 Juerd I don't want it to be CGI
20:58 Juerd Only self-hosting is enough showing off
20:59 obra Juerd: irc there is an http::server::simple in there somewhere
21:00 Juerd Let's see if I can find it
21:00 Juerd There's only HTTP::Headers so far
21:00 obra maybe I'll port it tonoght
21:00 obra tonight
21:00 Juerd And a server example, non-modular
21:00 obra http::server::simple is easy ;)
21:01 Juerd Good enough for what I want though :)
21:01 obra s/easy/trivial
21:01 Juerd obra: It'd be great if you ported this
21:01 Juerd Hm, that HTTP server is VERY simplistic :)
21:02 Juerd It ignores the request and has hard coded output :)
21:02 obra Juerd: noted.
21:02 * obra has customer stuff. but after that will try
21:04 * Corion discovers http://haskell.org/hawiki/FfiCookbook
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21:21 Corion Hmmm. we don't have t/builtins/system.t ... :)
21:22 Corion I'll hack my test into t/magicals/env.t for the rw support of %*ENV
21:22 theorbtwo Corion, what can system() portably to test it?
21:22 rafl has joined #perl6
21:23 Corion theorbtwo: system('pugs','-e','say %*ENV<FOO>'), for example
21:23 theorbtwo OK, works for me.
21:23 theorbtwo Don't your pugsrun tests cover that?
21:24 Corion theorbtwo: No, they don't. (and it's from the wrong side, there)
21:24 Corion theorbtwo: But in a sense, yes they cover that too, by using it.
21:24 Corion But I prefer explicit tests over implicit assumptions of working features
21:24 theorbtwo /metoo
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21:51 cwest url
21:58 meppl has joined #perl6
22:00 meppl guten abend
22:09 meta_perl guten abend
22:09 meta_perl is now known as _metaperl
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22:13 meppl good evening meta_perl
22:21 _metaperl good evening
22:27 Corion mpeppl!
22:28 Corion Hmmm. does undef %ENV{PATH} # enter an endless loop for anybody or did I break my build?
22:28 Corion Err - delete %*ENV{PATH} # typoe
22:29 Corion Gah. delete %*ENV<PATH> # is what I really meant
22:30 ninereasons r2696 hangs on that, Corion
22:30 Corion ninereasons: Thanks. So it's a bug and not caused by me. That's somewhat good.
22:32 ninereasons in fact, all the way back since r1876, pugs has exhibited this behavior
22:33 ninereasons an old bug, Corion
22:33 Corion ninereasons: I just stumbled on it now, as I'm trying to make %*ENV work on Win32 :)
22:34 ninereasons i'm looking at Linux and FreeBSD here, fwiw
22:59 Jonathan_ Hmmm....Pugs segfaults (on WinXP) while running t/unspeced/eval_yaml
23:00 Jonathan_ Don't have time to look into it right now.
23:07 Corion Jonathan_: Segfaults here as well (Win32/Win2k) - I think it's a bug in the C code.
23:10 Jonathan_ Yeah, makes sense. Should I post it on the list, or will someone notice it here?
23:12 Corion Jonathan_: Autrijus also reads the logs here, so he (or whoever put the YAML C code in) will notice here
23:14 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
23:15 Jonathan_ OK, cool. :)
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