Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-05-22

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 autrijus "A day may come when the hacking of humankind fails, when we forsake our keyboard and turn all programming to machines. But it is not this day -- this day we code!" :-)
00:00 * nothingmuch really goes now... Ciao!
00:00 autrijus see ya
00:01 theorbtwo Later.
00:01 theorbtwo autrijus++
00:02 knewt autrijus: any idea when you'll be getting in to vienna?
00:03 autrijus knewt: 8th 6am
00:03 knewt ouch. that's early.
00:03 autrijus yeah.
00:03 knewt if i get the flight i'm looking at right now i'll be getting in at 3:10pm
00:04 svnbot6 r3621, nothingmuch++ | Clarify on what is a C<Syn>, where special case of thereof was confusingly described like it was any C<Syn>
00:05 autrijus ...and so nothingmuch also learned the secret of working in his sleep.
00:05 knewt no-one will ever beat /you/ at that trick though *g*
00:06 autrijus :D
00:06 knewt autrijus++ # i don't think i've ever seen anyone else write quite so much code whilst sleeping
00:06 elmex elmex--
00:06 elmex for being lame
00:09 wolverian hmm. svk pull is slow.
00:10 eric256 why use svk instead of svn?
00:10 wolverian curiosity.
00:11 wolverian I guess pull is a bit redundant for me though.
00:12 eric256 lol. i just wondered if there was some cool svk feature i was missing out on
00:12 clkao "Be Autrijus. Use the tool."
00:13 autrijus heh.
00:13 wolverian hmm. what is the difference between svk pull and svk up -sm?
00:13 autrijus the first one is easier to type.
00:13 wolverian :)
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00:20 autrijus I think I need to sleep now and punt journal until I wake up :)
00:20 * autrijus waves &
00:20 clkao lazy autrijus
00:24 autrijus force me! evaluate me! reduce me to weak normal head form! ;)
00:24 theorbtwo Weak normal head form?
00:24 clkao [work] autrijus
00:25 autrijus theorbtwo: http://foldoc.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc​/foldoc.cgi?Weak+Head+Normal+Form
00:26 autrijus as you can see, I dyslexed it too :)
00:26 autrijus maybe weak head _is_ my normal form.
00:29 autrijus today saw 90+ commits.
00:29 autrijus crazy.
00:30 autrijus I still remember when 40 was considered normal.
00:30 autrijus and only 7 out of 90 is mine.
00:32 clkao there's no exporter yet?
00:32 autrijus is export
00:32 autrijus sub foo () is export { ... }
00:33 autrijus finer control from the user side is not yet implemetned
00:41 clkao current build system for ext sucks
00:42 autrijus please refactor away.
00:42 wolverian are trivial (spelling) fixes to 02Internals.pod okay?
00:42 autrijus wolverian: sure, nothingmuch explicitly said okay
00:42 wolverian ah, right. thanks.
00:42 wolverian now to figure out how to commit with svk :)
00:44 cognominal wolverian: I did a commit than a push
00:44 cognominal not pretending that the best way, that the one I found
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00:45 wolverian right. push keeps saying 'empty merge' to me.
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00:45 cognominal yea, there is all sort of scary message
00:45 wolverian I guess my svk is _old_ though
00:46 clkao warn "hate" will give me terrifying *** Error: MSG
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00:50 wolverian hmm. that might have done it.
00:51 wolverian I only had to give my openfoundry password thrice :)
00:53 theorbtwo If your openfoundry username isn't the same as your local username, it can produce problems.
00:53 svnbot6 r3622, Stevan++ | tests for classes that are loaded with nested "use" statements; some more bugs in here
00:53 svnbot6 r3623, wolverian++ |  r224@chronoa:  wolverian | 2005-05-22 03:44:08 +0300
00:53 svnbot6 r3623, wolverian++ |  Spelling fixes to 02Internals.pod
00:53 clkao it seems lives_ok { } are run in reverse order for me?
00:53 wolverian theorbtwo: it is the same.
00:54 wolverian theorbtwo: svk just did three merges, for some reason.
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00:54 wolverian svk also apparently inserted some extra stuff in the commit message. :)
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00:54 clkao youcan use smerge --verbatim -lf .
00:54 autrijus you can also use push --verbatim
00:55 wolverian ah. thanks!
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00:59 svnbot6 r3624, autrijus++ | * sigh, theorbtwo was right.  Pugs.Compile.Haskell can't use a
00:59 svnbot6 r3624, autrijus++ |   signature for MainCC.
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01:01 eric256 i'm guessing circumfix isn't implemented yet?
01:01 autrijus you guessed right!
01:01 eric256 lol. okay
01:02 theorbtwo Sorry, autrijus.
01:02 theorbtwo (Hey, why didn't that theorbtwo get ++ed?)
01:02 autrijus theorbtwo++
01:03 kelan is that because MainCC is defined in TH?
01:04 autrijus kelan: you know, you are right! I know how to fix!
01:05 kelan well when i went to find out what TH is, the website lists "can't splice in types" as one of the current limitations
01:05 kelan i remember theorbtwo asking about that a few days ago
01:06 autrijus no, it's only because I specced the type from outside th
01:06 autrijus should just do it in th.
01:07 theorbtwo autrijus, when I tried that it made the impossible happen.
01:07 kelan that was funny
01:08 autrijus theorbtwo: you need Heart of Gold to leverage that.
01:08 autrijus specifically, make clean.
01:09 autrijus ((a sad excuse of) journal) up.
01:09 * autrijus waves and sleeps for real &
01:09 kelan okay, the scene in the recent hitchhiker movie where the heart of gold makes them all out of fabric and string: best scene i've seen in a movie in a long time
01:09 svnbot6 r3625, autrijus++ | * kelan++ for inspiring me to figure out the problem with
01:09 svnbot6 r3625, autrijus++ |   Pugs.Compile.Haskell and missing signatures.
01:09 clkao i have basic Benchmark.pm
01:09 clkao now how do i do format prointing
01:10 clkao autrijus: work more!
01:10 kelan read A07!
01:10 clkao ok
01:10 clkao is it implmemented?
01:10 clkao e07 i think
01:10 kelan yeah, A07 just says: formats are out of the core. see damian.
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01:11 kelan theres a p5 module implementing p6 formats on cpan
01:12 clkao i surely mean in pugs
01:12 eric256 hmmm using 'say' in a class method with no parameteres is calling it with the object as the paramter...
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01:12 eric256 oh i bet say using $_ as a default parameter.
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01:15 svnbot6 r3626, autrijus++ | * reindent PA02's verbatim blocks.  Tab-indent in code segments
01:15 svnbot6 r3626, autrijus++ |   exceeded 80col, and Pugs source use 4-space indenting anyway.
01:16 wolverian (4 space indenting)++
01:17 * eric256 thought autrijus was sleeping.
01:18 eric256 is there a proper format for defaulting values of class attributes?
01:18 kelan he codes in his sleep
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01:18 kelan thats how he can get so much done
01:19 wolverian eric256: format?
01:19 kelan something like `has $.foo = 3`?
01:19 kelan not sure what hes asking
01:19 kelan probably a semi-colon would be in order as well
01:19 wolverian me neither. that's why I asked :)
01:19 eric256 has $.foo = 3 is rw;
01:19 eric256 or
01:20 eric256 has $.foo is rw = 3;
01:20 kelan probably would have to be the second, i would think
01:20 wolverian yes.
01:20 kelan you're applying the `is rw` to the attribute, not the 3
01:20 wolverian probably. maybe.
01:21 kelan are class attributes ro by default? that seems inconvenient
01:21 eric256 hmm. neither parse in pugs yet so it doesn't matter. lol
01:21 wolverian kelan: yes.
01:22 wolverian however, you can declare your class as rw
01:22 wolverian then the default switches around to rw. :)
01:23 kelan is that strictly for generating accessors?
01:23 wolverian I don't know. see 'Attributes' in S12. it doesn't mention other effects it might have.
01:23 kelan so that if you refer directly to an attribute inside the class you don't need `is rw`?
01:23 wolverian eric256: these are object attributes, by the way. class attributes are declared with 'my' or 'our'
01:24 wolverian kelan: "Some traits are copied to the accessor method. The rw trait causes the generated accessor to be declared rw, making it an lvalue method. The default is a read-only accessor."
01:24 wolverian kelan: I assume the variable itself is mutable by default.
01:24 * kelan nods
01:25 kelan that seems more sensible
01:25 wolverian I guess one would do 'has $.foo is constant is rw = 3;' to make it mutable from outside but not inside. :)
01:25 wolverian hmm. the accessor might fail though, since it's a constant now.
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01:27 * eric256 can't picture a circumstance where you would want it mutable by outside but not inside
01:27 wolverian me neither. :)
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01:28 wolverian I guess that's a false dichotomy, anyway, as the variable is always changed inside the class (by the accessor methods)
01:29 eric256 i just found out i could start typing names and hit tab to let trillian finish then
01:29 eric256 them*
01:30 kelan and in vim you can start typing variable names and hit ctrl-n to finish them
01:30 kelan it even cycles if there is more than one variable with that prefix
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01:30 kelan don't let long variable names annoy you ever again!
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01:53 Chewie[] kelan: uhh. does that work? /me tries
01:54 Chewie[] kelan: holy crap. and i thought i knew everything about good old Vim.
01:55 kelan :)
01:55 kelan ctrl-p cycles the other direction, whatever that means
01:55 kelan but it also does the completion
01:56 kelan so whichever is easier to hit
01:56 Chewie[] kelan: hmm. it's greedy. completes tokens; not just variable names.
01:56 * Chewie[] put _testing in a comment and it grabbed it.
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02:02 vcv- Ack. Is there anywhere to get a precompiled version of pugs for windows?
02:06 kelan see this message for a possibility:
02:06 kelan hmm
02:06 kelan http://www.mail-archive.com/perl6​-compiler@perl.org/msg00723.html
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02:07 vcv- cool thanks
02:08 vcv- wait..i compiled pugs already.. :)
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02:13 * scook0 realises that "find -name '*.hs' | xargs rm" was not a clever thing to do...
02:46 knewt created my first pugs patch now :)
02:46 svnbot6 r3627, scook0++ | Fixed a comment that was confusing Haddock
02:50 ingy holaa
02:51 ingy http://pugs.kwiki.org was broken
02:51 ingy due to a bad symlink after I moved kwiki.org to a new faster server
02:51 ingy my apologies
02:51 ingy all fixed now.
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02:59 AtnNn is $*_ specific to pugs?
03:12 meppl gute nacht
03:12 meppl good night
03:17 knewt autrijus: when you wake up... i've made my first pugs patch :)
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05:02 nothingmuch morning
05:19 nothingmuch knewt: do you need commit accesss?
05:20 nothingmuch because I can arrange that, as can stevan, theorbtwo, obra, hcchien...
05:21 nothingmuch ping me back within a few minutes, but after that i'll be going to work, and need to run an errand before I get there
05:22 Qiang-zh has joined #perl6
05:23 nothingmuch either way please type your email in chat so that someone can send you an invitation
05:24 Qiang-zh is schwern here ?
05:25 knewt nothingmuch: knew-pugs@pimb.org
05:26 nothingmuch Qiang-zh: occasionally, but I haven't seen him in a while
05:26 nothingmuch knew or knewt?
05:26 Qiang-zh nothingmuch: do you know how i can contact him ?
05:27 nothingmuch Qiang-zh: on two occasions I've mailed him and got back a reply
05:27 Khisanth jabbot: seen schwern
05:27 jabbot Khisanth: I havn't seen schwern , Khisanth
05:27 nothingmuch since I don't know him personally I can't offer a better medium... =P
05:27 nothingmuch jabbot: seen Schwern
05:27 jabbot nothingmuch: Schwern was seen 5 days 2 hours 53 minutes ago
05:27 Qiang-zh a friend of mine translating an article from him and he wanted to ask for a permission for that. but couldn't find his contact info..
05:27 knewt nothingmuch: as an id? knew i think
05:29 nothingmuch Qiang-zh: http://search.cpan.org/~mschwern/ has an email
05:29 nothingmuch knewt: invite sent, welcome aboard!
05:29 Qiang-zh nothingmuch: thx!
05:30 nothingmuch Qiang-zh: btw, which article is it?
05:30 Khisanth he was here a week ago ...
05:30 nothingmuch if it's part of a package of sorts, then it's probably under the GPL/Artistic licenses, in which case you're allowed
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05:33 Qiang-zh nothingmuch:  this one . http://mungus.schwern.org/~schwern/papers​/Why_I_Am_Not_A_Java_Programmer/why.html
05:34 knewt nothingmuch: ta, got it and i
05:34 knewt 'm in
05:34 Qiang-zh translate it into chinese. we want to stop the java madness in china :D
05:34 nothingmuch knewt: great!
05:35 nothingmuch Qiang-zh: good luck... I wonder if an article can get a billion people to dump java ;-)
05:35 nothingmuch anyway, i'm off to work
05:35 Qiang-zh nothingmuch:   have a good day :)
05:35 nothingmuch thanks
05:35 nothingmuch see you all soon =)
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05:37 knewt [[ svk push --verbatim ]] to push back correctly from svk?
05:38 eric256 arg its flattening my lists. arg.
05:38 eric256 prompt ("Choose a weapon:",  
05:38 eric256          [ [ 1, "Sword"],
05:38 eric256        [ 2, "Spell"] ]);
05:38 eric256 is being treated like
05:38 eric256 Choose a weapon: 1 Sword 2 Spell :
05:39 eric256 i
05:39 eric256 i've got multi sub prompt (Str $prompt) { and
05:39 eric256 multi sub prompt (Str $prompt, @data) {
05:39 eric256 but it doesn't like me ;(
05:46 eric256 stupid meaningful space. nevermind
05:47 knewt ok, fingers crossed this works properly...
05:48 knewt dammit. it's asking me about my local username, even though i've put the remote username in the url. i wonder what i have to do
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05:52 eric256 svn? or svk?
05:52 knewt svk
05:54 knewt i've never commited back to an http upstream before. only svn+ssh
05:54 knewt if i change the USER var for the call i wonder if it'll then cache the correct credentials for me
05:57 knewt gah. nope. still asking for a password for my local username
05:57 eric256 i don't know svk. with svn you just enter the user/pass on first commit and it remembers them from then on. svn++
05:57 eric256 perlbot karma svn
05:57 perlbot Karma for svn: 2
05:57 eric256 lol
05:58 eric256 perlbot karma eric256
05:58 perlbot Karma for eric256: 12
05:58 eric256 perlbot karma perlbot
05:58 perlbot Karma for perlbot: 4
05:58 eric256 perlbot karma autrijus
05:58 perlbot Karma for autrijus: 328
05:58 eric256 sorry had to play for a minute
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06:10 nothingmuch morning
06:14 knewt yaaaay, it worked.
06:14 svnbot6 r3628, knew++ | * Added myself to AUTHORS
06:14 svnbot6 r3629, knew++ | * Made backend selection case-insensitive
06:14 svnbot6 r3629, knew++ | * And updated t/pugsrun/09-dash-uppercase-c.t to test it
06:14 eric256 night all
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06:15 knewt just had to press through the first request for password with my local username, after which it prompted me for a username choice. which it's now cached
06:16 nothingmuch knewt++
06:16 nothingmuch huraah!
06:16 nothingmuch anywho, C++ time for me
06:16 nothingmuch see you all after they release me from the asylum i'll end up in
06:17 knewt heh. in a couple of days or so i think i'll go back to kernel-mode C for a little bit
06:17 nothingmuch ah, kernels should be nice... too critical to be done incorrectly
06:17 * nothingmuch got a funky (adjective denotes smell, not cool level) project
06:17 nothingmuch which no one really cared about
06:19 knewt debugging kernel drivers is certainly much nicer when you can boot up to the login prompt in about 5 seconds
06:19 svnbot6 r3630, eric256++ | Added baddies and rooms to wizard.p6
06:20 knewt perlbot karma knew
06:20 perlbot Karma for knew: 3
06:20 knewt perlbot karma knewt
06:20 perlbot Karma for knewt: 6
06:20 knewt heh, cool. combined score of 9 already
06:21 nothingmuch ook, that's silly
06:22 nothingmuch this granola is soooo terrible
06:22 knewt irc is virtually the only thing i use knewt on, and even then i don't use it on efnet (although that's just because someone else already uses it)
06:23 nothingmuch so why don't you switch to 'knew'?
06:23 knewt i use yet another id for shell accounts :)
06:24 knewt i actually started out using knew on irc, but changed over to knewt one day on a whim and decided to keep it
06:24 nothingmuch oh well =)
06:25 knewt and although i haven't got round to doing anything with it yet, i've got a domain name  ingeknewity.net
06:25 knewt with a newt as part of the logo
06:26 nothingmuch so change all your other logins to 'knewt' ;-)
06:26 knewt well, knew is actually derived from my name. knewt is just a nice play on words
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06:38 nothingmuch morning castaway
06:39 nothingmuch morning Aankhen``
06:39 Aankhen`` Morning nothingmuch. :-)
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08:02 Aankhen`` 103/5586 subtests failed
08:02 Aankhen`` (Win32, MSVC++)
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10:31 meppl guten morgen
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11:52 nothingmuch my brain hurts! waaah!
11:52 nothingmuch too much dynamic linking for my perlish background
11:52 nothingmuch *sigh*
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12:09 * nothingmuch needs a hug and a shot
12:09 nothingmuch hola iblech
12:21 iblech hi :)
12:29 nothingmuch gah!
12:30 Aankhen`` Where is svnbot?
12:30 iblech oh!
12:30 iblech I'm restarting it
12:30 iblech weird
12:30 AtnNn it netsplit
12:31 Aankhen`` Ah.
12:31 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
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12:32 Aankhen`` Mmm... how would you check if $foo is a reference?
12:32 Aankhen`` $foo.ref?
12:32 Aankhen`` (like Perl 5's `if (ref $foo eq "ARRAY")`)
12:32 iblech if $foo ~~ Array {...}
12:32 Aankhen`` OK.
12:32 Aankhen`` Thanks.
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12:53 wolverian which does $foo.does(Array) behind the scenes
12:56 iblech And this does $foo.meta.does(Array) behind the scenes
12:56 svnbot6 r3634, Aankhen++ | * &CGI::header -- basic support for stringified cookies.
12:56 svnbot6 r3634, Aankhen++ | * renamed the "cookie" parameter to "cookies" to better reflect the workings of the code.
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13:08 svnbot6 r3635, asavige++ | Added => ??:: precedence test to pairs.t
13:08 svnbot6 r3636, iblech++ | Added ".." as a shell command which outputs the AST unformatted.
13:08 svnbot6 r3637, iblech++ | FIRST { ...; undef } works now, too.
13:08 svnbot6 r3638, iblech++ | Added a test testing that FIRST { ...; undef } blocks really run only once.
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13:15 Aankhen`` Hey iblech, is there any chance you could get the tests in t/oo/submethods.t to pass? :-D
13:15 svnbot6 r3639, adehohum++ | Tests: undef bugs, xx on lists, subrule captures
13:16 iblech Aankhen``: :) submethods are tricky... Currently I'm working on INIT {...}
13:17 Aankhen`` Ah well, everyone has their priorities. ^_^
13:18 Aankhen`` Ooo, overloading fun!
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13:29 iblech Ok, I got INIT {...} in void context working
13:29 iblech Now my $x = INIT {...}
13:36 iblech Yeah, got it :)
13:36 iblech Writing tests for it and then checking in...
13:36 Aankhen`` Could someone run t/oo/class/basic.t and see how many tests fail?
13:37 iblech sure
13:38 iblech 4-8 fail
13:38 Aankhen`` Well, I un-eval'd a lot of them, and now only 4, 6 and 8 fail.
13:39 iblech ah!
13:39 Aankhen`` Should I commit?  Or is there a reason why eval_ok() was used instead?
13:39 iblech yes
13:39 iblech eval_ok('...') doesn't find the variables
13:39 iblech commit
13:39 Aankhen`` Indeed.
13:39 Aankhen`` OK.
13:40 Aankhen`` Inheritance doesn't seem to be working.
13:40 Aankhen`` And eval() seems to create a whole new lexical -- that's not the right word, but it's the closest I could think of :-) -- context which doesn't include any variables or classes or anything.
13:42 iblech The problem is: eval_ok(...) runs eval(...) in the scope of Test::eval_ok. If you write ok eval(...), the code is evaluated in the correct scope.
13:42 svnbot6 r3640, adehohum++ | Tests: loop {} while
13:42 svnbot6 r3641, Aankhen++ | * t/oo/class/basic.t: un-evaled a lot of tests.
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13:47 stevan Aankhen``: I have stoped using eval_* in favor of a lives_ok {} and is($val_from_lives_ok_block)
13:47 Aankhen`` OK.
13:47 stevan it tends to give better error messages
13:47 stevan it is longer to type though
13:47 Aankhen`` Heh.
13:47 stevan ok I am starting the changelog, this is gonna be a big one :)
13:48 iblech :)
13:48 stevan and it's all your fault iblech ;)
13:48 iblech :D
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13:51 Aankhen`` $karma iblech
13:51 Aankhen`` Hrm.
13:51 autrijus greetings!
13:52 Aankhen`` perlbot karma iblech
13:52 iblech hi :)
13:52 Aankhen`` Hi autrijus. :-)
13:52 stevan hey autrijus
13:52 Aankhen`` Oh, right, no perlbot.
13:52 stevan karma iblech
13:52 knewt 'lo autrijus
13:52 stevan hmmm, the bots must have left with the freenode upgrade
13:52 svnbot6 r3642, autrijus++ | * I'm sorry but BOM <feff> must be excised from AUTHORS ;-)
13:52 svnbot6 r3643, autrijus++ | * s:globally// is now s:global//
13:52 svnbot6 r3643, autrijus++ | * To interpolate @a, @a[] is now needed
13:52 svnbot6 r3644, autrijus++ | * first step in making legible stack trace in error
13:52 svnbot6 r3644, autrijus++ |   messages -- VError now carries [Pos], not Exp
13:52 svnbot6 r3645, Aankhen++ | * cleaned up t/operators/operator_overloading.t
13:52 stevan jabbot: you there?
13:53 Aankhen`` Not in the nicklist, at any rate.
13:54 stevan ahh,..I didnt like that bot anyway :P
13:54 Aankhen`` LMAO.\
13:56 stevan autrijus: I am going to add revision numbers to the Changelog
13:56 autrijus changes topic to:  pugscode.org <Overview Journal Logs> | pugs.kwiki.org
13:56 autrijus stevan: sure, if you think that reads better
13:56 autrijus a change may be done over several checkins tho
13:57 stevan no, sorry, I mean this "== Changes for 6.2.3 - May 12, 2005 - r3111
13:57 autrijus like (#1234, #1235, #1236) ?
13:57 autrijus ahhh.
13:57 autrijus that makes more sense :) sure
13:57 autrijus == Changes for 6.2.3 (r3111) - May 12, 2005
13:57 stevan makes my life easier too ;)
13:57 autrijus sure :)
13:59 iblech Gonna implement CHECK {...}
13:59 svnbot6 r3646, iblech++ | * INIT {...} blocks in void context and as rvalues. :)
13:59 svnbot6 r3646, iblech++ | * Added a test for them (t/statements/init.t).
13:59 svnbot6 r3646, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to t/rules/named_rule_capture.t.
14:00 Aankhen`` Does it make more sense to TODO all failing tests or leave them there for people to fix?
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14:00 autrijus Aankhen``: take a glance at them -- if they are regressions, let them fail
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14:00 autrijus if they are new tests and features, :todo<feature> them
14:01 Aankhen`` A'right.
14:01 clkao hi autrijus
14:01 autrijus greetings clkao san
14:01 autrijus did you submit your talk?
14:01 clkao no
14:01 clkao working on it
14:01 clkao can we get rusage in pugs?
14:02 clkao like times in perl5
14:02 knewt clkao: backend selection is now case-insensitive
14:04 clkao knewt++
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14:05 clkao autrijus: do you want to be cospeaker
14:05 autrijus clkao: sure, getProcessTimes can work
14:06 autrijus not sure if System.Posix.Process.getProcessTimes is avail on win32 tho
14:06 autrijus may need to Compat.hs it
14:06 autrijus knewt: want to hack it in? :)
14:07 knewt clkao: svk threw me for a bit in wanting to use my local username to authenticate with, but i eventually figured out that just hitting enter would prompt it to ask for a username. and of course it's cached now so won't be an issue again
14:07 autrijus clkao: I can cospeak it, sure
14:07 autrijus knewt: it's a svnauth thing... svn does the same
14:07 autrijus the prompt may be improved though
14:08 knewt lufthansa-- # when purchasing tickets online the credit card holder must be travelling
14:09 knewt guess i'll try phoning them up tomorrow and see if ordering by phone is nicer
14:11 clkao autrijus: btw, does warn "foo" has to be that annoying telling me Error?
14:11 autrijus clkao: it no longer.
14:11 autrijus you are using ancient pugs
14:12 iblech "ancient" :)
14:12 clkao right, 8 hrs ago = ancient
14:12 autrijus yeah
14:12 autrijus it's 28.8k seconds ago!
14:12 clkao have you seen m$ office advertisement about dinosours?
14:13 autrijus no. what is that?
14:14 clkao very stupid everywhere in tube station
14:14 ihb has joined #perl6
14:14 autrijus ah. I see it now.
14:14 clkao autrijus: http://www.microsoft.com/o​ffice/evolve/default.mspx
14:15 autrijus I already played thru it
14:15 adehohum has left
14:16 autrijus I wonder if we should make an ad about radioactive-retroviral engineered mutant pugs
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14:19 svnbot6 r3647, adehohum++ | Tests: instance methods calling other instance methods
14:22 knewt i don't suppose there's a -commits list?
14:22 iblech There is
14:22 clkao mugwump has one
14:23 iblech But I don't recall its address
14:23 iblech http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/P​roject/Source/index.html/pugs/log/ is nice
14:24 autrijus knewt: mugwump's is http://lists.utsl.gen.nz/mail​man/listinfo.cgi/pugs-commits
14:24 knewt autrijus: yeah, just found it thanks to the searchable irc logs :)
14:24 autrijus >1000 commits per month
14:27 knewt oh damn. just realised that since i don't have a static i'd have to pull the email down anyway. so i might as well just put together a cronjob that runs every 5 or 10 minutes and triggers a sync whenever a threshold of new commits is reached
14:28 autrijus clkao: got some time?
14:28 autrijus clkao: I wonder if I can walk you thru in implementing times() ;)
14:29 autrijus should take ~10min
14:30 clkao evil autrijus
14:30 clkao ok let's start
14:30 clkao you have 10 min
14:30 autrijus cool
14:30 autrijus so first, add the times() function to Prim.
14:30 autrijus open src/Pugs/Prim.hs
14:31 autrijus go to line 1175
14:31 autrijus copy that line
14:31 autrijus change the return type from Num to List
14:31 autrijus happy?
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14:31 clkao ok
14:31 autrijus now, you want to return a 4-tuple
14:31 autrijus loop up "time"
14:31 clkao btw times is not in s29
14:31 autrijus right, so we need to ping that as well.
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14:32 autrijus anyway. add op0 "times"
14:32 autrijus it ignores any input args
14:32 autrijus so it's a const
14:32 clkao just below time is alright?
14:32 autrijus sure
14:32 autrijus to return multiple values, use VList
14:32 autrijus return $ VList [0,0,0,0]
14:32 autrijus but that won't work, because 0 is not Val
14:32 vcv- has joined #perl6
14:32 autrijus return $ VList [VNum 0, VNum 0, VNum 0, VNum 0]
14:32 autrijus will do.
14:33 autrijus now open another window and
14:33 autrijus "make ghci"
14:33 autrijus from pugs base path
14:33 autrijus see if it compiles
14:33 autrijus and type
14:33 autrijus eval "times()"
14:33 autrijus to see if it works
14:33 autrijus if it does, commit it as phase 1.
14:33 clkao hate
14:33 clkao   Shared object "libparrot.so" not found, required b
14:33 autrijus oh. do this
14:33 autrijus perl Makefile.PL
14:33 * clkao reruns makefile
14:33 autrijus rm src/Pugs/Embed/Parrot.hs
14:33 autrijus rm src/Pugs/Embed/Parrot.o
14:33 autrijus and make ghci again
14:34 autrijus i.e. do away with PUGS_EMBED
14:34 clkao i know. :)
14:34 autrijus now write a simple t/unspecced/times.t
14:34 clkao Prelude> eval "times()"
14:34 clkao <interactive>:1:0: Not in scope: `eval'
14:34 autrijus did you "make ghci" ?
14:34 autrijus not "ghci"
14:34 clkao what?
14:35 autrijus type "make ghci" in cmd line
14:35 autrijus not "ghci"
14:35 clkao yes.
14:35 clkao oh it's because
14:35 clkao Could not find module `Pugs.Embed.Parrot':
14:35 autrijus you need to type "make" first then
14:35 autrijus after it deals with Embed.Parrot you can "make ghci" again
14:35 autrijus this whole embed parrot thing is hateful because parrot has no .so form
14:36 autrijus blame (someone else, not me)
14:36 clkao ok.. slow slow slow
14:36 autrijus "make unoptimised" too
14:36 autrijus when you wait for that
14:36 autrijus you can write t/unspecced/times.t
14:36 autrijus nothing fancy, just assign the result to a 4-elem my ($x, $y, $z, $w...)
14:36 knewt oh, while i think about it, autrijus++ # unoptimised as well as unoptimized
14:37 autrijus and test that they are sane or something
14:37 autrijus knewt: yeah, I've switched to the civilised form of spelling
14:37 autrijus instead of the civilized form
14:38 knewt command-line completion of makefile targets is really nice for noticing things like that
14:38 autrijus clkao: now, after both are done, implement the real thing by opening Compat.hs
14:38 autrijus go to line 31ish, its export list
14:38 autrijus add getProcessTimes
14:38 knewt me-- # pronouncing as zee-three rather than zed-three the other day
14:39 autrijus and goto line 122ish, add this stub:
14:40 autrijus getProcessTimes = failWith "times"
14:40 autrijus we'll deal with win32 later.
14:40 autrijus after that's done, type ":r" in the ghci prompt
14:40 autrijus make sure it compiles, then commit it
14:40 autrijus that's phase 2.
14:40 stevan wow this is a big changelog :) ... 50+ lines and I am only 3/4 of the way through the svn log
14:40 stevan lambdacamels++
14:40 autrijus stevan++ # changelog
14:41 clkao sloooow
14:41 stevan iblech++ # I have lost count of how many revisions are his
14:42 autrijus clkao: actually, come to think about it, we only need 4 of return value of the 5, so it's better to handle that in Compat.hs
14:42 autrijus see http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/la​test/html/libraries/unix/System.Po​six.Process.html#t%3AProcessTimes
14:42 stevan oh, autrijus when you are done with this, I found another OO bug related to the nested use
14:42 autrijus clkao: but it's okay for a first cut... commit first
14:42 clkao both seems to work
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14:43 autrijus as long as it compiles it's good to commit
14:43 autrijus ok, commit then :)
14:43 autrijus make sure the test fails!
14:43 jhorwitz mornin
14:43 autrijus you can introduce a sleep 1 and make sure the time elapsed is >0, for example
14:43 autrijus hm, but only system time, it sleep
14:44 autrijus ah. you can introduce a small loop to force elapsed user time.
14:44 autrijus so you can test for the first two.
14:44 clkao autrijus: the test doesn't fail
14:44 autrijus clkao: ok. commit anyway!
14:44 clkao ha i will make it fail
14:44 svnbot6 r3648, clkao++ | * Add the times() primitive.
14:44 svnbot6 r3648, clkao++ | * Export getProcessTimes.
14:44 autrijus ok, you work on the test. I'll look at Compat
14:46 autrijus heh, you added a semicolon
14:46 autrijus    return $ VList [VNum 0,VNum 0,VNum 0,VNum 0];
14:46 autrijus crazily, that is valid haskell.
14:46 autrijus haskell++ # timtowtdi
14:47 stevan iblech: you should write a bot to add svn properties for you :)
14:47 clkao bah. i was using ok ()...
14:47 knewt stevan: from the beginning of the repo, the top 5 are: 1408 autrijus / 421 iblech / 323 Stevan / 176 corion / 116 nothingmuch
14:47 clkao so it always okay'ed
14:47 clkao fuck the gap
14:47 iblech stevan: Yeah :)
14:48 stevan knewt: that looks about right
14:49 iblech stevan: Ii might not be that difficult really -- the bot just has to fire two svn commands and has to search for files not ending in \n
14:49 iblech s/Ii/It/
14:49 clkao it has been almost 20 mins... where's my times() ?
14:49 stevan iblech: svnbot could fire that off for every commit
14:50 knewt stevan: and a total of 79 different committers
14:50 svnbot6 r3649, clkao++ | More meaningful test for times().
14:50 autrijus clkao: your times() is there
14:50 autrijus r3650
14:50 stevan knewt: I use this (which theorbtwo wrote) to check that info
14:50 stevan * `next` now re-evaluates condition in `loop` constructs;
14:50 autrijus but! it returns clock ticks
14:50 stevan damn wrong pastboard :P
14:50 clkao hte
14:50 autrijus anyone knows how to turn clock_t to seconds?
14:50 clkao it has child info too?
14:50 stevan svn log | grep '^r[0-9]'| cut -d'|' -f2 | sort | uniq -c | sort
14:50 clkao HZ iirc
14:50 clkao HZ
14:51 clkao / HZ
14:51 knewt stevan: for me, svk log -n0 //pugs/trunk | perl -ne 'print "$1\n" if /^r\d+ \(orig r\d+\):\s+(\S+)/' | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr
14:51 clkao stupid client
14:51 autrijus 1000000 ?
14:51 autrijus 1000000 that is
14:51 clkao it hsould be a constant defined somewhere
14:51 autrijus ah, clocksPerSec
14:52 jhorwitz autrijus: CLOCKS_PER_SECOND in time.h
14:52 clkao CLOCKS_PER_SECs
14:53 autrijus ok, done
14:53 autrijus committing
14:56 clkao yay test apssed
14:56 svnbot6 r3650, autrijus++ | * turn processTimes into Val.
14:56 autrijus now write another test to make sure they are not out of proportion ;)
14:56 autrijus i.e. should < 10 or something
14:56 clkao i am lazy
14:56 stevan wow,.. over 600 new tests have been added
14:57 autrijus do it now! :)
14:57 stevan (perl6 rules tests I assume)
14:57 * autrijus is holding off commits until test is seen
14:57 stevan ouch
14:57 clkao aha
14:57 stevan withholding implementation for tests :P
14:57 stevan some tough-love from autrijus
14:57 autrijus stevan: I'm merely returning what I got from clkao in #svk
14:58 stevan :D
14:59 clkao can't use cmp_ok .. '>' ?
14:59 iblech No, but you can use ok ... > ..., ...
14:59 stevan clkao: you need to do &infix:[>] (if that works)
15:00 autrijus er
15:00 autrijus probably not.
15:01 autrijus $ ./pugs -MTest -e 'cmp_ok(2,&infix:<<>,3)'
15:01 autrijus this works
15:01 svnbot6 r3651, clkao++ | Test times for sensible increment.
15:01 autrijus not very readable
15:01 autrijus $ ./pugs t/unspecced/times.t
15:01 autrijus 1..1
15:01 autrijus ok 1 - something changed in times()
15:01 autrijus ok 2 - sensible time spent
15:01 autrijus # Looks like you planned 1 tests, but ran 2
15:02 autrijus I'll fix this.
15:02 clkao gr.
15:02 autrijus cmp_ok(@end[0] - @start[0], &infix:«<=», 10, 'sensible time spent');
15:02 autrijus works
15:02 clkao does it report properly when failed?
15:03 autrijus I don't know, it should
15:03 clkao it was getting got: undef, expectet: undef
15:03 autrijus it should probe for &code.name or something
15:03 autrijus ah. then it's borked. not too worried though
15:03 clkao because cmp_ok doesn't give got and expected for proclaim
15:03 autrijus you can fix it if you want :)
15:04 vitaminmoo has joined #perl6
15:04 autrijus so it took 30 minutes... sorry for that ;)
15:04 autrijus but you did get times().
15:05 clkao $compare_func.name doesn't owrk ?
15:05 estel has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
15:05 autrijus looking
15:06 autrijus implemented. committing
15:06 svnbot6 r3652, autrijus++ | * readjust times() return values by clocksPerSec,
15:06 svnbot6 r3652, autrijus++ |   which seems to be defined as 1M by POSIX.
15:06 svnbot6 r3653, clkao++ | plan properly.
15:06 svnbot6 r3654, autrijus++ | * use the real <= for testing
15:07 autrijus comt to think about it, I'll do .arity too
15:08 autrijus both done
15:08 autrijus r3655, enjoy
15:09 stevan talk about moving target, 10 revisions have happened since i started the changelog ;)
15:09 autrijus blame clkao and his Benchmark.pm ;)
15:09 clkao poor stevan
15:09 autrijus clkao: so you ready to commit Benchmark.pm for 6.2.4?
15:09 stevan clkao: its fun :)
15:11 clkao er, it depends
15:11 autrijus you have ~24hrs.
15:11 clkao cmp_ok fixed
15:11 autrijus clkao++
15:11 clkao things like:
15:11 clkao #   Failed test (t/unspecced/times.t line 15, column 1-68)
15:11 clkao #   Expected: '>= 10'
15:11 clkao #        Got: '0.000069'
15:11 autrijus ooh pretty
15:12 autrijus lol
15:12 autrijus    proclaim($test, $desc, $todo, $got, "{ $compare_func.name } $expected");
15:12 svnbot6 r3655, autrijus++ | * &code.name, &code.arity
15:12 svnbot6 r3656, clkao++ | Proper error failure when using cmp_ok.
15:12 autrijus I would've written
15:12 clkao why's that funny?
15:12 autrijus    proclaim($test, $desc, $todo, $got, "$compare_func.name() $expected");
15:12 autrijus but that's bikesheding
15:12 clkao oh ok. i'm new to this bloody language
15:12 autrijus it's funny because the new interpolation thing seems to be confusing the hell out of everybody
15:12 clkao aha
15:13 clkao it was confused yesterday so i make use of it today
15:13 iblech autrijus: Is there a particular reason Main.doParse uses an emptyEnv and not tabulaRasa?
15:14 stevan autrijus: ChangeLog done, got a second to look at my nested "use" class issue?
15:14 autrijus stevan: sure
15:14 stevan I already have tests :)
15:14 stevan t/oo/class/nested_use.t
15:14 stevan it fails to find the inherited methods
15:14 autrijus iblech: I don't quite recall a reason
15:15 autrijus lookin'
15:15 iblech autrijus: Ok, I'll change it then, as it b0rks INIT and CHECK
15:15 autrijus please do
15:15 autrijus iblech++
15:15 autrijus stevan: hrm, weird. seems like the opEval is not propagating Env up properly
15:16 autrijus I'll attempt a fix... but shower first
15:16 stevan autrijus: ok thanks, I need to shower too and run some errands. I will check in later :)
15:16 autrijus =)
15:16 autrijus stevan++
15:16 stevan autrijus++ # cause I know he will fix it and commit from the shower :P
15:17 autrijus talk about subtle nudge :)
15:17 svnbot6 r3657, Stevan++ | ChangeLog for 6.2.4
15:17 svnbot6 r3658, autrijus++ | * bikeshed patch to clkao++'s interpolation in Test.pm
15:18 stevan it is "thanks in advance" :)
15:18 autrijus ok :)
15:20 eric256 has joined #perl6
15:20 eric256 Prim.hs fails to compile! ;(
15:21 eric256 Constructor `ProcessTimes' should have 4 arguments, but has been given 5
15:22 autrijus oops
15:22 Arathorn has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:22 autrijus sorry. fixed, svn up
15:22 eric256 thanks.
15:22 eric256 i just snuck an update in at the wrong time there?
15:23 eric256 'svn up' sounds like a battle cry or something
15:23 Corion has joined #perl6
15:24 Corion Hmmm. Does Perl6 have a LIST version of qx ? I want to do system(LIST) but capture the output without doing ugly trickery ... Hmmm - maybe I should Just do the ugly trickery ...
15:25 autrijus I've always wanted that
15:26 Corion autrijus: What is the Perl6 qx syntax anyway? :)
15:27 autrijus q:x
15:27 autrijus iblech: r3660 has some style hints :)
15:27 svnbot6 r3659, autrijus++ | * oops, ProcessTimes stub was bad
15:27 svnbot6 r3660, autrijus++ | * clean up iblech++'s FIRST block code.
15:27 Corion I think I'll simply create a second Perl6 file, which only runs the system(LIST), and "include" that file via q:x() then.
15:27 autrijus ooh hacky.
15:28 Corion resp. via system(STRING) :)
15:28 Corion (because we don't have q:x yet, I think)
15:28 autrijus we don't yet.
15:28 Corion autrijus: I'm working on better tests for system(LIST), and it seems that Haskell is better there already than Perl5 (for Win32)
15:28 autrijus cool
15:29 iblech autrijus: Sure. BTW, style: Is there an easy way to foldl start_elem [elems] $ code? I.e. to place the code at the end of the list
15:29 autrijus huh?
15:29 iblech I have: foldl (\a b -> ...) start_elem [elems]
15:30 iblech I want: xxx start_elem [elems] (\a b -> ...)
15:30 iblech Because the lambda may be long etc.
15:30 autrijus well...
15:30 Corion iblech: foldl do_fold start_elem [elems] where do_fold = ...
15:30 autrijus right.
15:30 autrijus if you want it inline:
15:30 autrijus (\f -> foldl f start_elem [elems]) $ \a b -> ...
15:31 autrijus if you want to be very sick:
15:31 autrijus flip (flip foldl start_elem) [elems] $ \a b -> ...
15:31 iblech Ah :) Thanks, that's it
15:31 iblech (Not the flip one :))
15:31 autrijus whew :)
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15:39 clkao can't use >>-<< ? but >>+<< works?
15:40 chady_ has joined #perl6
15:40 autrijus clkao: you can hack Parser and Prim for one line each
15:40 autrijus to get >>-<<
15:40 autrijus but the correct solution is to do what iblech did for [] metaoperators
15:40 clkao huh?
15:41 clkao * and / also works
15:41 clkao why doesn't - ?
15:41 autrijus clkao: Prim line 1314
15:41 clkao ha
15:41 autrijus Parser line 889
15:41 autrijus commits welcome ;)
15:41 clkao i thought >> op << is something generic
15:41 autrijus yeah, just like [+]
15:41 autrijus but only very recently iblech hacked in code for [...]
15:41 autrijus I'm sure >>...<< will follow soon but it's not here yet
15:42 clkao cool
15:42 autrijus eric256: is win32 happy now?
15:43 clkao i added >>-<, but it's not magically hooked to - ?
15:44 autrijus hm? it should
15:44 autrijus commit for us to see?
15:44 eric256 yep thanks
15:45 autrijus cool, eric256++
15:45 autrijus Corion: can you check if getProcessTimes is there or easily emulable on win32?
15:45 autrijus if not, t/unspecced/times.t needs to be skipped entirely on win32
15:45 Corion checking (but unlikely I think)
15:45 Corion Let's see what Perl5 does
15:45 autrijus nod. I'll bbiab
15:46 autrijus Corion++
15:46 autrijus &
15:46 Corion Should be "easily" emulable as Perl5 knows it :)
15:47 Corion Ah. GetProcessTimes() in the Win32 API.
15:47 Corion GHC doesn't have it already?
15:47 autrijus look at the module help index
15:47 clkao autrijus: see hyper.t
15:47 autrijus on unix we have
15:47 autrijus file:///usr/local/share/doc/ghc6/libraries/un​ix/System.Posix.Process.html#t%3AProcessTimes
15:48 eric256 well there ever be a .perl for objects that produces code that can actualy recreate the object?
15:48 autrijus eric256: possible. not sure
15:49 Corion autrijus: If it's not already there, it should be easily written IMO
15:49 * Corion syncs
15:49 svnbot6 r3661, clkao++ | Declare >>-<<.
15:49 autrijus Corion: would you do so? that will make Benchmark.pm happy on win32
15:50 Corion autrijus: Eh - where does times() live yet? Or has it not been written yet?
15:50 Corion Ah - my tree was out of date :)
15:51 Corion We should maybe propagate our Win32 enhancements upstream so the GHC folks have to worry about them instead of Pugs :)
15:53 * Corion sets out to (re)implement getProcessTimes from the Win32 API
15:54 * theorbtwo wonders who was talking about me.
15:54 pupilzeng_ has quit IRC ("Bye")
15:55 autrijus Corion: when you have time, mail glasgow-haskell mailing list to tell them to take a look at Compat.hs :)
15:56 Corion autrijus: Yeah ;)
15:56 Corion Ewww. Win32 API GetProcessTimes() takes reference parameters :(
15:56 Corion So more buffer magic is needed ...
15:57 autrijus clkao: r3662, enjoy
15:57 jroc has joined #perl6
15:58 jroc join /pugs
15:58 autrijus greetings jroc.
15:59 jroc hi! sorry 'bout the "join" noise
15:59 * clkao happy
16:00 iblech Yay, CHECK {...} implemented, cleaning up and writing a test...
16:00 autrijus iblech++
16:01 autrijus really bbiab :) &
16:01 svnbot6 r3662, autrijus++ | * >>-<< and »-«.
16:01 clkao when is 6.28.0 coming
16:04 wilx has joined #perl6
16:06 vcv- hyperoperators work now??
16:07 theorbtwo Ah, read the log (more or less).
16:07 vcv- sweet
16:07 * eric256 can't get into the grove working on his wizard.p6 project...anyone need some grunt work done anywhere?
16:08 Aankhen`` iblech++
16:11 eric256 guess i'll play prince of persian instead ;)
16:11 eric256 persia*
16:13 vcv- either Pugs.AST.Internals is really big, or my command window is frozen
16:13 iblech It's really big :)
16:13 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
16:14 vcv- stilll.. it shouldnt take THAT long
16:14 vcv- ah it did
16:15 knewt hmm. did svnbot b0rk the utf8 in that last commit for anyone else, or is it just my config?
16:16 vcv- its just you
16:16 iblech kelan: svnbot, or more exactly "svn log" on the server svnbot runs on is b0rked
16:16 iblech err, sorry kelan
16:17 mrborisguy has joined #perl6
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16:18 svnbot6 r3663, iblech++ | * CHECK {...} in void context and as a rvalue works. :)
16:18 svnbot6 r3663, iblech++ | * Added a test for CHECK (t/statements/check.t).
16:18 svnbot6 r3663, iblech++ | * "." in interactive Pugs uses an prepared env now (tabulaRasa).
16:18 svnbot6 r3663, iblech++ | * Usual svn properties.
16:19 mrborisguy can somebody help me with an operator...  i'm thinking of the 'x' operator, but does it just work with strings now?  what i want is @array = ("this") x 3, and @array.perl.say should be ("this","this","this"), but instead i get ("thisthisthis").  what operator should i be using?  i couldn't find it in the synopsis.
16:19 vcv- prepared env?
16:19 vcv- mrborisguy: easy!
16:19 vcv- Except I don't know :)
16:19 pjcj mrborisguy: xx I think
16:19 mrborisguy haha, yeah, i was thinking it's gotta be easy!
16:19 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:19 iblech mrborisguy: xx
16:20 vcv- yeah, thats the one
16:20 mrborisguy yep
16:20 mrborisguy thanks!
16:20 vcv- x is scalar context, xx is list :)
16:20 iblech vcv-: Previously, the "." command in interactive Pugs used an emptyEnv, i.e. an env with no variables in it
16:20 iblech vcv-: But that broke INIT and CHECK, as these push to the compiler array @?INIT and @?CHECK respectively
16:21 vcv- gotcha :)
16:21 iblech vcv-: Now "." uses the standard preparedEnv too, which contains these vars
16:23 vcv- Awesome
16:24 Juerd [~]++
16:25 eric256 has left
16:25 Juerd [~] @foo looks so much better than @foo.join('')
16:25 iblech Yeah
16:25 Juerd Take that, most other languages!
16:25 lumi has joined #perl6
16:26 masak *lol*
16:26 clkao i wonder which topioc to put svk under. linux or emerging.. i guess not perl, its so unpopular :P
16:28 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
16:30 integral do we have p6 SVN or SVK bindings yet? ;-)
16:30 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:31 clkao integral: that depends on bridging parrot nci to native function
16:32 integral hmm, maybe we need a Pugs/Perl6 NCI which can either use Parrot NCI or Haskell FFI
16:32 clkao which will happen in 2 or 3 weeks maybe :)
16:32 clkao *nod*
16:33 hcchien 2 or 3 weeks for p6 SVK?
16:33 clkao bridging parrot nci to native function
16:33 Juerd Perl 6 needs a 99.97% speedup :)
16:33 iblech Hmm... is >>[>>+<<]<< allowed?
16:34 iblech Or rather, [>>+<<]<<
16:34 Juerd iblech: No, [op] is prefix, not infix.
16:34 Juerd iblech: That, should.
16:34 iblech Ok
16:34 Arathorn has joined #perl6
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16:37 clkao hyper operator makes Benchmark.pm so easy
16:39 Juerd Why?
16:39 cognominal hi, what is the meaning of @ in Haskell sources?
16:39 vcv- hyperoperators, metaoperators, and context operators make me giddy
16:39 Juerd (Perhaps this is a nice subject for a Perl Monks post, comparing 5 vs 6? Advocacy!)
16:39 clkao because it needs to subtract realtime, usertime, cputime, child usertime, child cpuytime
16:39 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:40 clkao which is stupidly hateful everywhere
16:40 integral cognominal: you use it in a pattern to both bind a var to the thing being matched, and to match things inside that
16:40 Juerd clkao: Do you have a code example, with its old counterpart?
16:40 clkao i will soon
16:40 Juerd Neat
16:40 iblech cognominal: @ allows you to, um, specify an argument in more detail. For example: name@('I':_) would match only if the name begins with 'I'
16:40 integral cognominal: eg.  v@(VStr str), that binds v to the (VStr _) value, and binds str to the value boxed in the VStr
16:40 Juerd I love these practical examples
16:41 clkao anyway
16:41 clkao    for (my $i=0; $i < @$a; ++$i) {
16:41 clkao        push(@r, $a->[$i] - $b->[$i]);
16:41 clkao    }
16:41 clkao was like this
16:41 clkao so @a >>-<< @b.
16:42 Juerd Oh, that *is* nice.
16:42 cognominal do you know where is the documentation for that feature?
16:42 iblech [Haskell] Is there a function like map, but of type (a -> [b]) -> [a] -> [b]?
16:42 integral iblech: concatMap
16:42 iblech integral: Thanks :)
16:42 integral iblech: or >>= in a monad
16:42 integral flip >>= :: (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b
16:43 vcv- hyperoperators, metaoperators and context operators oh my!
16:43 vcv- Hm. I've seen :: used in different contextes. what is that context for, integral?
16:43 integral just declaring a type
16:44 jroc has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
16:44 vcv- oh thats haskell, oops
16:45 vcv- haskell still confuses me. im learning it very slowly :)
16:45 lumi has joined #perl6
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16:50 svnbot6 r3664, Juerd++ | add docs/quickref/reduction
16:52 vcv- props to you guys for a painless build/install process for pugs on Win32 :)
16:52 Juerd heh, [.] < Some::Class method method method >
16:52 Juerd Some::Class.method.method.method
16:54 iblech Hm... I think this should rather call "Some::Class".method.method.method
16:54 Juerd Same thing.
16:54 iblech To do want you want you've to write [.] Some::Class <method method method>
16:54 Juerd A string value can be used in a class's name's stead.
16:55 Juerd This doesn't mean "".method is valid syntax for that
16:55 Juerd But $foo.method is, isn't it?
16:55 Juerd Hm, never realised. It no longer CAN.
16:55 clkao hyper uniary is too evil
16:55 svnbot6 r3665, Juerd++ | more reduction
16:55 iblech Really? How does the compiler know which method to call in the following example: "SomeClass".method or SomeClass.method
16:56 Juerd iblech: You're right.
16:56 lumi has joined #perl6
16:56 iblech (Class objects)++
16:58 Juerd And if you love them individually: (Class objects)>>++
16:58 Juerd :)
16:59 mrborisguy vcv-: did you get pugs to install on Win32?
16:59 vcv- Yes
16:59 iblech Juerd: :)
16:59 mrborisguy I couldn't get it to work... what version?  the latest released, or a snapshot of some sort?
16:59 vcv- latest. i just now updated through svn and rebuilt
16:59 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
16:59 Corion getProcessTimes for Win32 will be delayed - I don't know if I'll finish it today (that is, within the next 4 hours or so) ...
17:00 mrborisguy did you use nmake?
17:00 vcv- What's that do Corion? maybe i can help
17:00 ihb is there any installation docs for pugs installation for Win32? i took a quick glance at pugscode.org and in the dist, but didn't find any. shall i go look again?
17:00 vcv- yes mrborisguy
17:00 mrborisguy huh... alright
17:00 Juerd Why are so many programmers using Win32?
17:00 vcv- i use vs.net2003 tools (cl and link), not the free toolkit though
17:00 vcv- that may be why
17:00 Juerd I'd expect more sanity.
17:00 Arathorn is ^ still used as a prefix for hyperoperators?
17:00 Juerd Arathorn: No
17:00 vcv- Juerd: lets not get into this :)
17:00 Corion Juerd: Just because you don't know it, Win32 isn't hard/ugly
17:00 vcv- win32 is easier to program for, i would say
17:00 Juerd Arathorn: It's >>+, >>+<<, +<<
17:00 Arathorn it's » and « all the way now?
17:01 Arathorn cool
17:01 Juerd Corion: It's ugly and hard.
17:01 Corion vcv-: It's a simple wrapper around the Win32 GetProcessTimes() call. The tricky thing about it is that it needs some buffers and I am lazy/not in the mood at the moment
17:01 Corion Juerd: Bah
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17:01 Juerd Corion: I know Windows all too well. I've used it longer in my life than I've used other OSes, and I still see the result of its stupidity almost daily, in my work as sysadmin.
17:01 vcv- Corion: ok, well would you mind if i took a stab? though you'd have to point me in the right direction in the pugs code. win32 api im good with though
17:01 integral MFC isn't easy either
17:01 Corion vcv-: In principle, it can be mostly cloned from the other stuff in src/Pugs/Compat.hs
17:01 vcv- hm..
17:01 Corion vcv-: Not at all - I'm pointing you in the direction ;))
17:01 vcv- Juerd: lets not get into OS wars, please.
17:02 Juerd vcv-: Why not?
17:02 vcv- because its stupid
17:02 ihb Juerd: not all programming is OS-close. :-)
17:02 Juerd Why is it?
17:02 Khisanth speaking of hyperops are there shorten forms of them? Like $a = $a + $b can be $a += $b, is there >>+<< version of that?
17:02 vcv- ive been through it many times before.
17:02 vcv- i get annoyed with people insult me for using windows
17:02 Corion vcv-: getEnv is an ugly hack that allocates a string buffer. Did you see how getProcessTimes() is implemented in Perl5 ? win32/win32.c
17:02 integral Khisanth: >>+=<< ?
17:02 vcv- no i did not, ill take a look
17:03 Khisanth integral: sorry I asked ...
17:03 Khisanth that looks too horrible to be true!
17:03 autrijus hm, >>+=<< is probably always the same as >>+<<=, tight?
17:03 Corion vcv-: I plan on cloning the Perl5 implementation, basically - I'll nopaste what I currently have
17:03 vcv- ok, cool :)
17:03 integral Khisanth: you can slap the meta-operators on any appropiate op
17:03 Arathorn >>+<<= seems intuitive...
17:03 autrijus [+=] $a, $b, $c;
17:03 Juerd autrijus: I don't think >>+<<= is valid.
17:04 autrijus Juerd: yeah, I think so too
17:04 pasteling "Corion" at 84.176.48.225 pasted "Implementation of getProcessTimes" (18 lines, 805B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10322
17:04 integral that doesn't look right :-/
17:04 Juerd Meta-ops play at different levels.
17:04 Juerd First, = metas to +, then >><< to +=
17:04 vcv- Juerd: just one thing i will say. for a contract i just finished, ihad to program for linux (debian). i hated it. its not even POSIX compliant, and its debugging tools are very poor.
17:04 Khisanth Arathorn: >>+=<< would be more intuitive if you consider += to be an operator
17:04 autrijus hm, that ends up as (($a += $b) += $c), which doesn't make much sense
17:04 Juerd vcv-: I see.
17:04 integral vcv-: hmm, which bit of POSIX did you find missing?
17:05 Corion vcv-: That declaration should import GetProcessTimes() as win32GetProcessTimes, and the call already is there as well, all that's missing is some call to mallocBytes(), some pointer arithmetic (incPtr, decPtr) and you're done
17:05 * Arathorn is trying to work out whether there's a way to calculate a dot-product on two vectors with a single hyperop
17:05 vcv- integral: with pthreads
17:05 integral Arathorn: [+] (@a >>*<< @b) ?
17:05 Corion I'll be away for some time now, but mention any questions you have, I'll see them ;)
17:05 Arathorn or do you have to just sum(@a >>*<< @b) with a reduction?
17:05 Juerd vcv-: So would you say Win32 was any bit nearer to POSIX compliancy than Linux?
17:05 integral vcv-: ah.   I never use threading :-)
17:05 vcv- k, thanks :)
17:05 Arathorn integral: ah, okay
17:05 vcv- Juerd: no, but at least it doesnt claim to be
17:06 lumi has joined #perl6
17:06 integral Linux claims that it's been certified as POSIX compliant? 8-)
17:06 Juerd vcv-: So in your world, is not-trying better than trying and fail?
17:06 Juerd integral: No.
17:06 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:06 vcv- grr. why are you being so so persistant about it? i dont think there is anything wrong with people using linux, why should you care if others use windows?
17:07 Juerd vcv-: Well, I find it REALLY WEIRD that you let POSIX compliancy enter a discussion about linux vs win32, in windows's favour.
17:07 vcv- not in windows favor at all
17:07 vcv- that wasnt the point
17:07 Juerd Then I probably agree.
17:08 Juerd But i'm much more interested in windows versus rest of the world
17:08 vcv- maybe its partly my fault, but when i was looking up information on pthreads, one site i found that had good info said it wa POSIX compliant
17:08 Juerd Rest of the world including mac osx.
17:08 vcv- so i went with that and wrote the code around that. then bam, i had issues, and turns out something involving child/parent threads wasnt posix compliant
17:08 vcv- so i had to rewrite
17:09 * integral would blame that more on the web spreading wrong information again
17:09 vcv- BSD and OS X i admire. linux i do not
17:09 vcv- right
17:09 vcv- ubuntu is very nice though. i have that installed. but i still prefer windows as my desktop os.
17:09 Juerd Note that Linux is usually described as *mostly* POSIX compliant.
17:10 vcv- yeah. which is sort of stupid to me
17:10 Arathorn hmm - is it a feature or a bug that the reduce op doesn't work on say( [+] (@a >>*<< @b) ~ "foo"); ?
17:10 Juerd vcv-: Gnome sucks. Kubuntu is nicer, imnsho.
17:10 vcv- juerd: i agree. havent tried kubuntu yet though
17:10 Arathorn (r3633)
17:10 vcv- is it updated in parallel to hoary?
17:10 Juerd Arathorn: That's [+] $one_thing
17:11 Juerd vcv-: Yes.
17:11 Juerd vcv-: In fact, kubuntu is a meta-package, available in hoary's repository.
17:11 Juerd vcv-: apt-get install kubuntu
17:11 Juerd That changes an existing ubuntu installation into kubuntu.
17:11 vcv- ah.
17:11 vcv- ill try it.
17:11 vcv- anyway, Juerd.. i do sort of understand why you're confused why people who like perl so much would also use Windows. linux is very similar to perl in a way. but personally, i want my os to just work and not have to dig into config files all the time, and compile stuff myself. you know?
17:11 Juerd Do note that to really get kubuntu, you have to install some extra packages manually (like kmail) and remove the originals (evolution)
17:12 Juerd vcv-: Then Mac OS X and Kubuntu are great alternatives.
17:12 stevan autrijus: any progress on the nested "use" issue? no pressure, just checking :)
17:12 Juerd Apart from the fact that the former doesn't work on non-ppc
17:12 Arathorn ah - i see; the (@a >>*<< @b) gets autojoined in the scalar context for concatting with "foo"
17:12 Arathorn and then there's only one thing to add up
17:12 Arathorn cool
17:12 lumi has joined #perl6
17:13 vcv- right. which is why i do use ubuntu
17:13 vcv- but im a windows programmer :)
17:13 Arathorn (how come it gets autojoined with spaces in between, though?)
17:13 vcv- and i still hate fonts on linux :)
17:13 Juerd Arathorn: Array stringification is like that.
17:14 Arathorn but @a=(1,2,3); say scalar(@a); # gives 123?
17:14 Juerd It shouldn't
17:14 Juerd Although perhaps say then returns an arrayref which it knows how to dereference.
17:14 Juerd s/returns/gets/
17:14 Arathorn and dereferencing doesn't get autojoined with whitespace?
17:15 Juerd Any dereferencing done is done by say() itself.
17:15 vcv- Now Juerd, dont question why I use Windows ever again ;)
17:15 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:15 Juerd vcv-: Why the hell do you use Windows?
17:15 gaal has joined #perl6
17:15 vcv- :p
17:15 Juerd That is, if for anything more than games.
17:15 iblech Arathorn: And say() doesn't autojoin with whitespace. If you want to have spaces, you say ~@array
17:15 Arathorn hang on, scalar() does still exist, right?
17:15 Juerd Or Windows-specific development.
17:15 Arathorn right
17:16 Juerd Arathorn: It should
17:16 Arathorn ~ being unary string concat, or forcing a stringy context?
17:16 Juerd And say should not do anything with references except stringify and print.
17:16 vcv- lots of reasons, but i dont like having to justify why i use it to other people
17:16 Juerd scalar(@foo) is the same as \@foo
17:16 vcv- like i said.. fonts is a big one :)
17:16 Juerd Arathorn: Forcing stringy context. There is no unary string concat, except perhaps [~]
17:17 Juerd vcv-: How, fonts?
17:17 * Arathorn nods
17:17 Arathorn okay - i need to go and revise my apocalypses, methinks ;)
17:17 Juerd vcv-: I have a shitload of truetype fonts loaded in Linux. It works very well.
17:17 vcv- Not as well as cleartype
17:17 Juerd Arathorn: Synopses.
17:17 Juerd vcv-: Oh, I *hate* cleartype.
17:17 vcv- thats debatable i suppose, but cleartype looks MUCH better to my eyes
17:17 Juerd It makes otherwise beautiful fonts into ugly bundles of over-smoothness.
17:17 vcv- most people hate it because theyve never used the tweak tool
17:18 Juerd That can only improve it so much
17:18 Arathorn i thought truetype font hinting was still buggered under X because of Apple's patents?
17:18 Juerd Not enough.
17:18 vcv- it is Arathorn
17:18 vcv- BCI is nice, but still not enough
17:18 Juerd Arathorn: I have no idea, but I like freetype's anti aliasing much more than Windows's or Mac OS X's
17:18 Arathorn eye of the beerholder and all that, i guess :)
17:18 vcv- i like it the least
17:19 Juerd Especially Apple makes the fonts too smooth, anti-aliasing even straight lines (Why? Hate my eyes, or something?)
17:19 vcv- whats it matter what os i use anyways. we're all here for perl, thats all that matters. the one true language
17:19 Juerd vcv-: Really? I'm here only to bash Windows and PHP
17:19 vcv- :/
17:19 vcv- i cant tell if you're being serious or not
17:20 vcv- php i will bash with you though..
17:20 Juerd A bigger problem is that I myself cannot tell either.
17:20 vcv- All I ask is that you dont bring it up anymore.
17:20 lumi has joined #perl6
17:20 Juerd I can't promise you anything
17:21 vcv- well if you do when im in abad mood, i will rant and tear linux apart :p
17:21 Juerd Oh, go right ahead.
17:21 gaal hi. anyone have any luck building parrot on msys?
17:21 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:21 vcv- but im not kidding..if you keep doing it, im just straight out ignoring you
17:22 Juerd Your ranting can't take down the numerous Linux based servers I admin, while my even looking at the enclosures can crash the few Windows ones.
17:22 * Arathorn does the obligatory Jack Nicholson "why can't we all just get along" line from Mars Attacks
17:22 vcv- alright.. fine
17:22 Arathorn (nak nak nak)
17:22 Juerd :)
17:22 vcv- * Added Juerd!*@* to ignore list
17:22 * stevan wonders why Juerd is trolling today?
17:22 Juerd That's not fair. I read your ignoring thing after I typed that line :)
17:23 * vcv- shrugs. he was nice to me before
17:23 Juerd stevan: No more today than any other.
17:23 Juerd vcv-: I'm still nice to you, just not to your platform of choice.
17:24 * stevan thinks maybe Juerd got a bad cup of "coffee" at the local Coffee shop
17:24 vcv- Sounds like it :/
17:24 * Juerd deeply hates microsoft and windows.
17:24 vcv- Probably someone who hasnt used windows since the 9x series :)
17:24 Juerd stevan: I don't visit coffee shops. I don't like any of the stuff they sell, and I don't like the beverage they're named after either.
17:25 * stevan does too, but cares so little about it he doesn't care to discuss it
17:25 Juerd vcv-: I switched to Linux for my main platform after using Windows 2000 for a year. I've actively used Windows XP, and I very regularly use other people's Windows XP boxes.
17:26 vcv- oh well. maybe ill take him off in a few days and he'll be in abetter mood
17:27 Juerd My mood is alright, thank you.
17:27 lumi has joined #perl6
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17:28 japhy what do I need to download/compile to start testing perl 6?
17:28 japhy pugs?  parrot?  what...?
17:29 stevan GHC
17:29 stevan Pugs
17:29 stevan then probably parrot if you want Rules
17:29 revdiablo ghc 6.4 or higher
17:29 Juerd japhy: Well, first, svn or svk :)
17:29 stevan I think actually most of this is in README :)
17:29 Juerd japhy: As Pugs *releases* lag too far behind to be a good target for development.
17:29 Arathorn hm, I assume the hyper/reduction-metaops don't work with the parrot backend?
17:29 stevan yes, svn/svk does help
17:29 japhy what is svn/svk?
17:29 vcv- svn is very simple too. and it doesnt like as bad as cvs
17:30 Juerd japhy: Versioning tools.
17:30 vcv- version control system
17:30 stevan japhy: a better CVS
17:30 Juerd japhy: Are you familiar with cvs?
17:30 japhy yeah, a bit.
17:30 Juerd japhy: It's much like that, but better. That's enough to know at this point :)
17:30 stevan svn is really easy, you will like it
17:30 japhy I'm not very concerned with that right now, though.  I just want a snapshot that I can play around with.
17:30 japhy when I said "test", I meant "fool around with"
17:30 * Arathorn has an $P15 = $P16 >>*<< $P17 in his AST which surely cannot be valid parrot...
17:30 stevan japhy: best snapshot is from svn
17:30 Juerd japhy: Go to the pugs homepage, there's a "svn co" command line to copy and paste.
17:30 japhy my gf's not around for me to "test".
17:30 vcv- does perl5 still use cvs, or svn now?
17:31 Juerd japhy: That'll "check out" (download) the current version
17:31 stevan japhy: here is a good svn book http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.0/index.html
17:31 Juerd japhy: To upgrade your local copy, run "svn up"
17:31 stevan vcv-: I think perl is on svn now
17:31 svnbot6 r3666, iblech++ | Added [*], [//], [||], [,], and the usual svn properties to
17:31 svnbot6 r3666, iblech++ | docs/quickref/reduction.
17:31 svnbot6 r3667, Stevan++ | Perl::MetaModel - more work on the meta-meta-hierarchy document. I think I am starting to finally get this all into place (NOTE: its still pretty rough though)
17:31 Juerd japhy: And to commit changes back to the central repository, use "svn commit" (if you add new files, use "svn add filename")
17:32 jroc has joined #perl6
17:32 Juerd japhy: Don't worry about making mistakes. Everything is revertible.
17:32 japhy I wasn't going to be *changing* things
17:33 japhy I just want a copy of perl6 so I can try it out.  get myself into the perl6 mindset.
17:33 Juerd Oh, you will.
17:33 japhy s/mind/operator/
17:33 Juerd Because whenever you find a bug, you will be asked to write a very small test script :)
17:33 japhy heh
17:34 Juerd And explaining you how to use svn once is easier than copying and pasting your patches repeatedly
17:34 Juerd For you too, I add :)
17:34 lumi has joined #perl6
17:34 vcv- for juerd, the man on ignore: 2os[Windows Server 2003 (5.2 - 3790)] 2uptime[66d 3h 52m 54s]
17:34 Juerd vcv-: Impressive.
17:35 revdiablo ooh, color and dick measuring in one message!
17:35 vcv- heh :p
17:35 vcv- sorry about the coloring
17:35 japhy ok.  once I get used to perl 6, I'll get into that whole SVN thing.
17:35 Juerd vcv-: Does this mean you have neglected to install recommended critical security updates for over two months? Really?
17:35 Juerd japhy: Okay
17:35 Juerd japhy: Do you have GHC? You'll need a recent version (6.4 or later)
17:35 japhy GHC is Haskell, I'm assuming...
17:35 Juerd Yes
17:35 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:36 jroc Juerd: why 6.4 or later?
17:36 japhy right-o.  if I don't have it, I'll get it.
17:36 Juerd japhy: See http://pugs.kwiki.org/?Perl6Nomenclature
17:36 revdiablo pugs uses some features that only exist in ghc 6.4 and up
17:36 Juerd jroc: Because Pugs uses some of the new features.
17:36 Juerd jroc: This project isn't aimed at production code, so there's absolutely no motivation to waste time keeping things backwards compatible :)
17:36 jroc Juerd: maybe this isn't the right place, but, examples of new features?
17:37 Juerd jroc: I have no idea, sorry.
17:37 jroc Juerd: no worries... just curious
17:37 Juerd japhy: What platform do you use?
17:38 autrijus Juerd:
17:38 autrijus undef<< @foo;
17:38 autrijus is that legal?
17:39 autrijus i.e. undef is a prefix op, isn't it?
17:39 Juerd Yes, that should undef for @foo
17:39 japhy ok, I'm downloading GHC 6.4 now.
17:39 bd__ is now known as bd_
17:39 japhy while I'm waiting...
17:39 Juerd As should foo << @foo, given sub foo ($bar) { ... }
17:40 japhy does %hash{@keys} >>++ do what I think it does?
17:40 Juerd As "unary named ops" and "functions" are generally indistuinguishable.
17:40 autrijus japhy: yes it should.
17:40 Juerd japhy: Depends on what you think it does, really.
17:40 japhy I expect it to act like:
17:40 japhy  $hash{$_}++ for @keys;
17:40 Juerd Yes, that it does.
17:40 japhy awesome.
17:40 Juerd Except it's %hash{$_} in Perl 6
17:40 Juerd Sigils don't change anymore.
17:41 autrijus Juerd: what about listops?
17:41 Juerd $hash{$_} is short for $hash.{$_}, which is what was $hash->{$_} in Perl 5.
17:41 autrijus do they get hyper form as well?
17:41 Juerd autrijus: I hope so, just for overall consistency.
17:41 autrijus say<< @blah;
17:41 japhy I was showing Perl 5 code.
17:41 Juerd japhy: Then disregard what I said.
17:41 Juerd autrijus: The problem is having multiple arguments, of which you want only one hypered.
17:42 autrijus Juerd: what about listfix?
17:42 Juerd autrijus: Damian has been fighting all syntaxes for that, but I haven't read good explanation yet.
17:42 Juerd autrijus: What's listfix?
17:42 lumi has joined #perl6
17:42 vcv- say << @blah; #<-- passes each item of @blah to say?
17:42 Juerd vcv-: One by one, yes.
17:43 Juerd vcv-: It's like (say(@blah[0]), say(@blah[1]), ...)
17:43 autrijus Juerd: Y
17:43 autrijus and chainops like eq
17:43 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:43 Juerd autrijus: I don't know how that can be useful, so I have no answer ready
17:43 autrijus >>eq<<
17:43 Juerd eq should definitely be hyperable
17:43 autrijus okie.
17:44 Juerd As should ~~
17:44 vcv- hm. i assume the answer is yes.
17:44 japhy at the risk of asking a FAQ... why Haskell?
17:44 Juerd japhy: Because it has the features.
17:44 vcv- japhy: good for parsing
17:44 Juerd japhy: And see what was possible in 100 days.
17:44 japhy easier than lex/yacc?
17:45 * japhy has never used Haskell
17:45 Juerd japhy: Oh, much. See Parser.hs
17:45 Juerd Neither have I. Using pugs doesn't require understanding of Haskell, fortunately.
17:45 autrijus japhy: like, 1000 times easier than lex/yacc :)
17:45 japhy hmm, cool.
17:45 japhy juerd - Oh, I didn't think it did.
17:46 japhy juerd - I'm just saying, I know nothing about it
17:46 vcv- lex/yacc is nasty :)
17:46 jroc how does Haskell compare with Common Lisp w.r.t to doing pugs?
17:46 autrijus jroc: I havn't used common lisp, so I can't say anything about it
17:46 Juerd jroc: Superficially, it has a much nicer set of operators :)
17:47 jroc fair enough... I'm just trying to learn CL but perhaps I should switch to Haskell
17:47 Juerd japhy: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pug​s/trunk/docs/01Overview.html
17:47 Juerd japhy: Answers these faqs
17:47 autrijus jroc: Haskell has this, more "research" feel about it.
17:47 japhy wow.  I can understand Haskell.
17:48 autrijus japhy: I suspect your brain is lambda shaped. :)
17:48 japhy I don't exactly know the syntax, but just looking at the "aboutHaskell.html" page at haskell.org, I know exactly what it's doing.
17:48 * Juerd doesn't understand how "apocryphos" is written with -n in English
17:48 Juerd And how its plural "apocryphoi" got to be -a.
17:48 japhy English sucks.
17:49 japhy learn American. ;)
17:49 japhy its much easier, and the syntax is loser.
17:49 lumi has joined #perl6
17:49 jroc blech American  :o)
17:49 Arathorn crappy brits making greek nouns sound more like 3rd declension latin ones :)
17:49 japhy [sic]
17:49 jroc s/loser/looser/
17:49 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:49 japhy jroc - [sic]
17:49 Juerd jroc: "[sic]"
17:49 jroc haha
17:49 autrijus iblech: I did >>...<<! in 20 minutes! :)
17:49 japhy note also the "its" which should be "it's"
17:50 autrijus iblech++ # did the hard part for me
17:50 iblech autrijus++ :)
17:50 Juerd autrijus: Wow, hyper failure?!
17:50 autrijus Juerd: no, hyper metaoperator
17:50 Juerd Oh, for any op in ... :)
17:50 Juerd I read yada :)
17:50 Juerd Sweet.
17:50 autrijus ∀ op. >>op<<
17:51 Juerd autrijus: >>op and op<< too?
17:51 autrijus Juerd: they are parsed, not yet executed
17:51 autrijus you want those? :)
17:51 vcv- oi oi oi
17:51 Juerd autrijus: I have no special need for them
17:53 ijoyce has joined #perl6
17:53 svnbot6 r3668, autrijus++ | * generalised hyper op handling landed.
17:54 vcv- sheesh. why is it so difficult to find the perl5 source code
17:54 Juerd vcv-: apt-get source perl
17:54 autrijus vcv-: huh? http://search.cpan.org/dist/perl/
17:54 gaal http://search.cpan.org/~nwclark/perl-5.8.6/
17:54 Juerd vcv-: Or search.cpan.org
17:55 Juerd vcv-: Or perl.com
17:55 Juerd vcv-: Or... oh, this is useless. You're ignoring me still.
17:55 vcv- thanks autrijus. google didnt give me that :)
17:55 autrijus :)
17:55 lumi has joined #perl6
17:56 autrijus *Main> eval "sub infix:<Z> { 3 }; (1..5) >>Z<< (1..5)"
17:56 autrijus (3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
17:56 Juerd Wow, that's a wildly obfuscated way to write 3 xx 5 ;)
17:56 autrijus :D
17:56 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
17:57 autrijus but the important thing is it works :)
17:57 japhy what was the file I was told to look at to see how much cleaner Haskell is?
17:57 japhy "easier than lex/yacc?"
17:57 lumi has joined #perl6
17:57 japhy and then a file was mentioned...
17:58 iblech Parser.hs
17:58 Juerd japhy: Parser.hs
17:58 japhy ok
17:58 japhy thanks
17:58 * Juerd waits for signs of utter amazement
17:58 gaal anyone know if jonathan's binary parrot was built with msys or with msvc? and is 0.1.2 new enough?
17:58 japhy AWWW.
17:58 japhy ghc-6.4: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
17:58 japhy that's not cool.
17:58 integral make unoptimised :-)
17:58 Juerd Oh, yes, haskell is very memory hungry
17:58 svnbot6 r3669, autrijus++ | * hyperoperator for user-defined infix ops
17:58 Juerd japhy: How much memory does your box have?
17:59 Juerd I'd advise 512 or more
17:59 Juerd (Or make unoptimized)
17:59 japhy I don't know.  I'm on perlmonk.org
17:59 Juerd japhy: In a shell, type free
17:59 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:59 integral ouch, I wouldn't advise using ghc on a shared system
18:00 Juerd japhy: It may be that more limits are imposed on users.
18:00 japhy ah, ok.
18:00 japhy well, it was a nice try.
18:00 Juerd integral: I'm considering putting up a shell server for Perl 6 people
18:00 * integral knows his local admins would hunt him down with crossbows
18:00 japhy I'll find some other solution.
18:00 lumi has joined #perl6
18:00 integral ooh, yes.   Just needs ccache for haskell though
18:00 Juerd integral: It's very expensive though, so I have to think this over a couple of times
18:01 japhy ok, later folks.
18:01 japhy thanks for the assistance.
18:01 Juerd I'm thinking maybe my business can sponsor it.
18:01 japhy has left
18:02 Arathorn gaal: it's built with MSVC iirc
18:02 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:02 vcv- uh oh. msvc? watch out for juerd.
18:02 autrijus 0.1.2 is definitely not new enough
18:02 autrijus there's a rar build somewhere.
18:02 gaal well, i'm sad to say that pugs essentially depends on msvc now on win32. :(
18:03 Lopo has quit IRC (kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
18:03 vcv- sucks
18:03 autrijus http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/attach/parrot/binary/
18:03 lumi has joined #perl6
18:03 autrijus gaal: why?
18:03 vcv- would be nice if it compiled on the intel compiler
18:03 gaal autrijus, i've tried to build it with msys with three different snapshots, they all failed.
18:03 gaal it == parrot
18:03 svnbot6 r3670, autrijus++ | * mention the RAR binary build.
18:04 autrijus gaal: oh. then parrot depends on msvc, not pugs
18:04 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:04 autrijus you can grab a binary from the url above I think
18:04 gaal pugs doesn't harddepend on parrot yet..
18:04 gaal but w/o rules...
18:04 gaal i'll try that, thanks!
18:04 autrijus =)
18:04 gaal do i want the without-icu or the other one?
18:04 vcv- without!
18:05 autrijus without
18:05 autrijus doesn't matter for now anyway
18:07 gaal it wants icuuc32.dll
18:08 autrijus even the -without one?
18:08 gaal yes.
18:09 gaal c'mon autrijus, port it to haskell, we know you it won't take a minute. :-p
18:10 lumi has joined #perl6
18:10 autrijus ;)
18:10 autrijus you can download binary build of ICU ;)
18:10 gaal pointer?
18:11 autrijus icu.sf.net
18:11 gaal oh, icu's that ibm unicode thing?
18:11 gaal no wonder it soudned familiar.
18:12 gaal i wonder, ibm
18:13 gaal 's binaries are msvc, any chance of that working?
18:13 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:13 autrijus sure, it just wants the dll visible
18:13 autrijus I'm surprised that -without-icu still wants icuuc.
18:13 lumi has joined #perl6
18:13 autrijus this is too painful
18:14 gaal yes.
18:14 gaal if someone can tell me they tried coLinux and got it to work, i'll stop fighting msys :)
18:14 svnbot6 r3671, autrijus++ | * some more work for hyper prefix/postfix -- not there yet
18:15 autrijus what's coLinux?
18:15 autrijus # http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/index.​cgi?Build%20Parrot%20with%20MinGW
18:15 gaal linux as a ring 0 process on windows.
18:15 autrijus # http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj/index.cgi?MS%​20Windows%20Parrot%20Binnary%20Download
18:15 saorge has joined #perl6
18:15 autrijus may be useful.
18:16 gaal yes, but needs tweaking to work with networking.. and still in early dev so i'm not sure it's worth it
18:16 gaal did i just say ring 0 process? silly me :)
18:16 Lopo has joined #perl6
18:18 gaal yay, after tweaking PATH and stuff this works! autrijus++
18:19 autrijus :D
18:19 svnbot6 r3672, autrijus++ | * change address to the wiki page
18:21 gaal known?        src/Pugs/Compat.hs:73:0:     Warning: Definition but no type signature for `failWith'
18:21 gaal (same for warnWith in the next line)
18:22 gaal why is that a warning, anyway? aren't type sigs always optional?
18:23 autrijus gaal: yeah, but somebody turned up the warning
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18:23 autrijus gaal: add sig for it?
18:23 gaal sure.
18:24 mrborisguy i installed subversion on my computer.  anybody mind telling me the simple way to get the latest pugs source using it?
18:25 mrborisguy or better... have a good reference
18:25 revdiablo mrborisguy: svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
18:25 gaal also, http://pugs.kwiki.org/?FrequentlyAskedQuestions
18:25 mrborisguy revdiablo, gaal: thanks!
18:29 lumi has joined #perl6
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18:32 svnbot6 r3673, iblech++ | Unbreak eval_ok and make haddock.
18:38 autrijus hm, I don't think I have tuits to finish op1HyperPrefix and op1HyperPostfix today
18:38 svnbot6 r3674, gaal++ | Add type signatures to three functions, eliminating warnings.
18:38 autrijus iblech is certainly welcome to try though :)
18:38 iblech Maybe :)
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18:40 gaal for pick.t:        pugs.exe: src/Pugs/Parser.hs:44:8-39: Irrefutable pattern failed for pattern Pugs.AST.Internals.Val (Pugs.AST.Internals.VList sublist)
18:40 gaal known?
18:41 autrijus gaal: iblech just fixed it
18:41 autrijus and I fixed it independently
18:41 autrijus but iblech's is better and he checked it in first :)
18:41 madsj has joined #perl6
18:41 gaal ah :)
18:42 iblech autrijus: Just curious, how did you fix it?
18:42 gaal i'd been away for a while, i forgot you guys always accomplish six impossible things before breakfast
18:42 gaal irrefutable things, in this case.
18:42 autrijus iblech: slapping a Syn "*" to the Var.
18:42 autrijus Syn "*" [Var "@?CHECK"]
18:42 iblech autrijus: ah, ok
18:42 autrijus "Impossible things should be easy, irrefutable things should be trivial"
18:42 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
18:43 autrijus iblech: t/pugsrun/04-dash-ce.t
18:43 autrijus pugs: *** Undeclared variable: "@?CHECK" at -e line 1, column 1
18:43 lumi has joined #perl6
18:43 autrijus the -e form not handled?
18:44 iblech pugs -we 'say CHECK { say "In CHECK"; 42 }; BEGIN { say "In BEGIN" }' works here fine
18:44 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:44 iblech Will investigate
18:47 japhy has joined #perl6
18:47 japhy which document should I use as a base for Perl 6 rules?
18:48 japhy apocolypse/exegesis, or some other source?
18:48 gaal S05? Damian's draft on captures posted recently on p6-l?
18:48 japhy I mean only so far as their syntax.  how they look.
18:49 gaal Synopsis 5
18:49 Arathorn has quit IRC ()
18:49 japhy ok
18:49 iblech Fixed, I think, but I can't recompile ATM to check if it works as I've got a smoke running currently. Give me five minutes or so :)
18:50 lumi has joined #perl6
18:50 japhy thanks, gaal.
18:50 gaal sure
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18:51 iblech pugs hang (hung?) at t/rules/named_rule_capture.t
18:52 lumi has joined #perl6
18:53 gaal iblech, golf.t is hanging for me too
18:53 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:53 Corion Hmmm. Why is there withCWString() but not withAllocABytes() in Haskell ... Weird ...
18:53 gaal hey Corion :)
18:53 Corion Hi Gaal!
18:54 iblech gaal: Hm, golf.t ran fine (6/10 tests failed, though)
18:54 * iblech guesses it's some kind of external vs. embedded Parrot
18:54 * iblech guesses it's some kind of external vs. embedded Parrot bug
18:54 gaal oh, my bad, i forgot the crappy windows terminal XOFFs when you mouse in it.
18:56 japhy has left
18:57 gaal btw, anyone look into the weird synchrinization issue for concurrent smoke while i was gone?
18:57 iblech Ok, -c bug fixed, committing
18:57 iblech weird synch issue?
18:58 gaal yes, on windows at least, when you'd -j 3 the smoke test, sometimes the last batch wouldn't be waited for
18:58 gaal so the harness would end without gathering all the test results
18:59 lumi has joined #perl6
18:59 gaal i *think* it may be a bizzarro cygwin issue, but i'nm not sure.
18:59 svnbot6 r3675, iblech++ | Unbreak -c.
19:00 iblech gaal: Never happened here (Linux 2.6)
19:00 gaal iblech, i couldn't reproduce it on linux myself either.
19:00 autrijus I'm fixing named capture hanging
19:01 gaal btw, it didn't hang on my box, autrijus.
19:01 gaal cygwin.
19:02 iblech Hangs here reproducible, external Parrot
19:02 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:03 gaal pugs -V should say what parrot it has :)
19:03 lumi has joined #perl6
19:03 gaal i'll add that.
19:06 mrborisguy Will pugs always depend on parrot for rules?  Or will that change sometime?
19:07 gaal http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html # r3674
19:07 svnbot6 r3676, iblech++ | Test fixes (mostly unEVALs).
19:07 chady has joined #perl6
19:07 Corion Yay. unEVALs++
19:07 Corion mrborisguy: Pugs will one day move onto Parrot.
19:07 Corion So then, Pugs will depend on Parrot for everything.
19:08 Corion (I hope that by that time, Parrot has become a single K&R C file that bootstraps the rest)
19:09 autrijus So then, "in parrot mode", pugs will depend on parrot fe)
19:09 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:09 autrijus So then, "in parrot mode", pugs will depend on parrot for everything :)
19:09 autrijus <- still had not ruled out direct Perl6->(Non-PIR) possibilities
19:09 lumi has joined #perl6
19:09 autrijus it needs to share as much as code as possible, of course
19:10 autrijus btw, named rules should be ok now
19:10 gaal what's :t error "something"   ?
19:11 autrijus gaal: forall a. a
19:11 autrijus or just: a
19:11 gaal thanks.
19:11 vitaminmoo has joined #perl6
19:11 autrijus np :)
19:12 autrijus shower, bbiab
19:12 svnbot6 r3677, autrijus++ | * unbreak named rules for external parrot
19:12 svnbot6 r3678, gaal++ | Another stray missing signature added
19:13 gaal (i asked ghci, but the sig i got was so surprising i concluded it must have been the wrong error :)
19:16 iblech autrijus: Yep, named_rule_capture.t works now (2/2 fails)
19:16 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
19:17 Juerd THEY CLOSED THE 24/7 GROCERIES ROBOT MACHINE THINGY
19:17 Juerd The bastards!
19:18 Juerd This must be part of some conspiracy against hackers.
19:18 larsen has joined #perl6
19:19 pasteling "Corion" at 84.176.48.225 pasted "How do I make "res" visible to GHC?" (39 lines, 1.4K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10330
19:19 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:19 Corion Haskell Help Needed ;)
19:20 gaal where is res even declared?
19:20 Corion gaal: Nowhere - I guess that's my problem ;)
19:20 Corion How do I declare a variable of a certain type?
19:20 autrijus you just use it.
19:20 autrijus return $ ProcessTimes 0 user kernel 0 0
19:20 madsj has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:20 autrijus is the solution
19:20 Corion That's what I tried, but I either tried it wrong or ghc doesn't want it that way ...
19:20 Corion D'oh :)
19:20 Corion autrijus: You make it seem so easy :)
19:21 chady has quit IRC ("leaving")
19:21 autrijus because it is :)
19:21 mrborisguy haha
19:21 autrijus (it's the learning part that's difficult)
19:21 Corion I was stuck in the perlish way of hash handling instead of looking at the type as a list
19:21 Corion autrijus: :))
19:21 gaal hmmm, but that raises a question, can't i do that with named params?
19:21 autrijus hm?
19:21 autrijus return $ ProcessTimes
19:21 autrijus    { elapsedTime = 0
19:21 autrijus    , userTime = user
19:21 autrijus   ...
19:21 autrijus   }
19:21 Corion I think one could do that somehow with named params, but I failed doing that ...
19:21 autrijus er, misindent
19:22 Corion Ah - like autrijus shows :))
19:22 autrijus but sure, you can do that too
19:22 autrijus you don't even need the $, I think
19:22 Corion Ah - the golfer strikes again ;)
19:22 autrijus lol
19:22 gaal heh
19:24 lumi has joined #perl6
19:31 Truc2Ouf has joined #perl6
19:33 Corion Oooo. It Compiles Therefore It Must Be True!
19:36 gaal latest smoke up at http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/smoke-cygwin.html . good night!
19:36 svnbot6 r3679, iblech++ | util/livecd/splashscreen.txt -- Typo fixes
19:36 gaal drats, "latest" does reamain true long around here :)
19:36 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:37 lumi has joined #perl6
19:38 Corion gaal: I'm about to commit another patch ;)
19:38 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:38 eric256 has joined #perl6
19:38 gaal :) i'm off though. see 'ya! &
19:39 lumi has joined #perl6
19:39 Corion vcv-: You there? I just committed a version of getProcessTimes()
19:42 f0rth_ has joined #perl6
19:42 svnbot6 r3680, corion++ | getProcessTimes() implemented on Win32
19:43 iblech gaal: FYI, the design of that smoke is borked (things aren't aligned left)
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19:44 Corion iblech: It's for me too, but simply changing the (generated) link to the old CSS fixes it all for me. It's a manual step tho'
19:45 Corion Eh - no, that design looks much better than what brokenness happens in my smokes...
19:45 Corion (I'm not sure if I don't cause that brokenness myself though)
19:46 f0rth has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
19:47 iblech I think it's because of the XHTML DTD, which doesn't allow inlined stylesheets or so. I remember having read something about this problem
19:47 lumi has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
19:47 Corion iblech: Aaah - that could be a good explanation
20:02 gaal the design is borked? tell that to the maintainer of HTMLMatrix! Oh crap, that'd be me. :)
20:02 mrborisguy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:03 gaal good thing i'm not really here.
20:03 iblech :)
20:03 Corion Whooops. Perl5.t is an infinite loop I guess ...
20:03 Corion ... it's running quite a while already ...
20:03 gaal anyway, what browser, Corion?
20:04 Corion gaal: FireFox
20:04 gaal works great for me on ff1.04/win
20:04 Corion gaal: Your version worksforme too, I was too hasty
20:04 Corion gaal: My version is broken for me
20:04 gaal ahhh
20:04 gaal k
20:04 iblech gaal: Your's is borken on FF 1.03
20:05 Corion See http://datenzoo.de/pugs/win2k.html - the external link gets generated wrongly, and the inline CSS doesn't seem to catch
20:05 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
20:05 gaal one day i should see why the build_info sucks when created on windows (\r\n)
20:05 Corion FF1.04/win32 here
20:05 Corion gaal: Cygwin problem I guess. Or YAML problem. But \r\n is the One True Linefeed Style :)
20:06 Juerd No, it's the one true Carriage Return AND Line Feed style.
20:06 Juerd Line Feed is LF is chr 10
20:06 gaal Corion, what link do you see broken?
20:06 Juerd And \r\n is dangerous, as \n itself can be CRLF, \r\n resulting in CRCRLF
20:06 gaal looks good to me using your html
20:06 Juerd s/can be/can be written back as/
20:06 Corion gaal: The link to the CSS file is some absolute file:// link on my Win32 machine ;)
20:07 gaal Juerd, can we fight about endianity instead? it's much more important.
20:07 iblech Corion: perl5.t did not hang here, but did took long to execute
20:07 Corion Looks all warped to me, unless I fix the link to the CSS to be nonbroken. iblech could be right about this one, and maybe it only happens with FF.
20:08 Corion iblech: It took 1min CPU time, so maybe I was just impatient. I should take those V14gr4 that the email always tells me about.
20:08 gaal i'm using ff and don't see breakage anywhere :(
20:08 Corion They help against impatience I heard.
20:08 Juerd gaal: Fine with me.
20:08 Corion Maybe they introduced that with 1.04 ...
20:08 iblech Corion: lol :)
20:09 Juerd gaal: But first we have to establish that the correct word is endianness ;)
20:10 nothingmuch brrr
20:10 nothingmuch what a wonderful feeling
20:10 nothingmuch good food
20:10 gaal actually no, let's not fight. i'm off to bed. hi nm btw, and bye!
20:10 iblech Prefix hyper ops implemented :)
20:10 nothingmuch ciao!
20:11 * Juerd is enjoying the wonderful feeling of autodrop pittigzoete sneker zoethoudertjes.
20:11 nothingmuch fair amounts of alcohol, enough to still make sense out of speech
20:11 nothingmuch iblech++
20:11 Corion $^iblech++
20:11 nothingmuch Juerd: what's that?
20:11 webmind hmmm autodrop
20:11 webmind het zou verboden moeten worden
20:11 Juerd Good night, gaal
20:11 webmind :)
20:11 vcv- has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:11 Juerd nothingmuch: A kind of drop
20:11 Juerd nothingmuch: And drop is a kind of dutch candy
20:12 webmind licorish
20:12 webmind or something
20:12 Juerd licorice
20:12 webmind yes :)
20:12 Juerd And no, it's not what most people think of when they hear that word.
20:12 webmind although you have combinations
20:13 Juerd licorice is zoethout, webmind
20:13 Juerd Now, obviously sneker zouthoudertjes have everything to do with that
20:13 Juerd But drop in general much less so.
20:14 Juerd s/zouthoudertjes/zoethoudertjes/
20:14 webmind Juerd, ik dacht drop ?
20:14 Juerd nee, drop in deze vorm bestaat nauwelijks in engelse landen
20:15 webmind hmm
20:15 webmind staat mij iets anders van bij
20:15 webmind mgoe
20:16 Corion Ooooo. I even got one unexpected success by implementing times() :)
20:17 iblech :)
20:17 webmind 2: a black candy flavored with the dried root of the licorice
20:17 webmind          plant [syn: {licorice}]
20:17 Juerd Yes, it's used for that, but it's inaccurate.
20:18 Juerd It's an important ingredient, not the thing itself.
20:18 Juerd Drop is sometimes called black licorice candy
20:18 svnbot6 r3681, iblech++ | Prefix hyper ops implemented.
20:18 svnbot6 r3681, iblech++ | But some don't seem to parse yet (++<< for example), and &::("prefix:+<<")
20:18 svnbot6 r3681, iblech++ | doesn't work yet, either.
20:19 Juerd But most foreigners will only recognise that as those awful sweet things, while our typical salt candy isn't found there.
20:19 Corion Aaah. I think I'm stupid. I think I know why perl5.t took so long - I was running the unoptimized version!
20:19 webmind Juerd, wikipedia seems to also have a good english article on it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquorice
20:19 webmind hmk
20:19 Juerd Think of the black parts of engelse drop.
20:19 Juerd That's what they think of. It has a very different taste.
20:19 Juerd (It's rather tasteless)
20:20 Juerd That's why I don't translate drop.
20:20 webmind Juerd, hmm in scandinavia they have something with Liquorice in it.. sweet varient.. but still similar to the dutch stuff
20:20 webmind chocolate covered drop
20:20 Juerd yuch
20:20 Juerd That's like mixing religions :)
20:21 webmind no.. it's good.. just ask tuxje :)
20:21 webmind Juerd, i know.. but it strangly tastes good
20:21 Juerd I guess it must be overwhelmingly good. It's a combination of two of the world's greatest candies.
20:21 webmind well it could be.. if it wasn't that the chocolate is really bad
20:21 Juerd aw
20:21 Juerd Hm
20:22 webmind I don't think it could be sold as chocolate here anyway
20:22 Juerd Let's melt some ourselves.
20:22 webmind hmm
20:22 webmind could try yes
20:22 Juerd And try and recreate it, but with some sense of perfection added.
20:22 eric256 has left
20:22 webmind especially since I don't have any housemates left to complain about cooking experiments in the kitchen :)
20:22 Juerd Grin.
20:23 Juerd At least they weren't cafeine experiments anymore :)
20:23 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:23 webmind no.. but I have a -very- evil one in the planning
20:23 webmind thanks for reminding me btw.. I completely forgot..
20:23 Juerd Like your famous asphalt/tar... thing.
20:23 svnbot6 r3682, corion++ | Promoted a :todo test for times()
20:23 svnbot6 r3683, iblech++ | Correctly parse +« (one char patch! :)).
20:23 webmind busy weekend :)
20:24 webmind Juerd, ah.. yes :)
20:24 webmind Juerd, did you ever taste it?
20:24 iblech [1,2,3]>>... should yield [1..., 2..., 3...], right?
20:24 zuulvin_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:24 Juerd webmind: No, I have death planned in 2038
20:24 Juerd And not before then.
20:25 Juerd iblech: I think not.
20:25 webmind 2038? is that defined by a site? or is there something special?
20:25 Juerd iblech: It ought to work with lists, not references to arrays, I think.
20:25 iblech Juerd: Ok, but when tr/[]/()/ it will work, right?
20:25 Juerd iblech: Because otherwise you *can't* apply something to a list of references
20:25 Juerd iblech: I think so.
20:25 iblech Ok
20:26 Juerd webmind: I usually don't write sites about the visionary future.
20:27 webmind Juerd, good plan...
20:27 ingy seen schwern
20:27 * webmind noticed the future tents to change anyway
20:27 webmind tends?
20:27 Juerd tends.
20:27 Juerd It has nothing to do with camping.
20:28 webmind well I can see myself camping in the future.. ;)
20:28 nothingmuch mmmm... camping
20:29 nothingmuch my friends are so spineless. over the last 5 years i've tried so many times, never got them to go once.
20:29 nothingmuch at least my family has character =)
20:30 * webmind camped out last weekend... didn't bring anything to lay on...
20:30 webmind it was -cold-
20:30 webmind and not smart enough to take the ladies offer to share a tent :)
20:31 nothingmuch hah
20:31 nothingmuch the american south west was a hell of an experience in that respect
20:31 nothingmuch we spent a night in arches national camp
20:31 nothingmuch hot, dry desert,
20:31 nothingmuch almost overwhelming
20:31 nothingmuch and then we drove an hour and a half into colorado
20:32 nothingmuch it was around 35° F at night
20:32 webmind how much °C is that ?
20:32 nothingmuch just over 0
20:32 webmind ouch
20:32 webmind well here it's still early.. and it rained aswell
20:32 webmind so -cold- floor
20:32 webmind and only had a crappy sleepingbag and a decent tent
20:32 nothingmuch actually i was converting C to F for the sake of universality, on the assumption that most people here are american
20:32 webmind hell of a lot of fun though... just -cold-
20:33 nothingmuch actually, that's a pretty dumb assumption looking at the AUTHORS file
20:33 webmind °C is more universal then °F
20:33 Juerd qpsmtpd++
20:33 Corion nothingmuch: I guess there aren't that many americans :)
20:33 Corion (here, I mean)
20:33 nothingmuch webmind: the interesting part was that it was the middle of july
20:33 webmind nothingmuch, ah.. ok
20:33 nothingmuch webmind: yep, C *is* more universal... but with english being the common tounge here, i tend to make too much of an effort
20:33 Juerd nothingmuch: Let the people who choose to use weird standards be the ones converting ;)
20:33 svnbot6 r3684, iblech++ | Postfix hyper ops.
20:34 nothingmuch Juerd: words I can live by. Let it be metric from now on then =)
20:34 webmind indeed
20:34 Juerd nothingmuch: megagood.
20:34 * nothingmuch tries to write up a bit more of PA02
20:34 webmind metric all the way
20:35 osfameron_ metric++
20:35 webmind all these feet, inches and yards don't make any sense
20:35 nothingmuch the only grudge I have with the metric system is dad's fault
20:35 Juerd Yeah, what the hell is a "foot" if they don't specify the shoe size? :))
20:35 webmind hm?
20:35 webmind Juerd, heh
20:36 nothingmuch but then he said that 12 actually makes much more sense
20:36 Juerd And when someone mentions a number of gallons, then which of the many kind of gallons are they referring to?
20:36 webmind Juerd, or yard.. if they don't specify the neighbourhood
20:36 nothingmuch when I was 8 or so i asked him why the decimal system is in place
20:36 nothingmuch he told me about fingers and all
20:36 nothingmuch it's divisable by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, goes well with 8, 9
20:36 nothingmuch so on the whole it should have been easier to grok
20:36 Juerd Well, the metric system works because we use the decimal system.
20:37 Juerd If we were used to a duodecimal (base 12) system for numbers, then some imperial units would make more sense
20:37 nothingmuch Juerd: btw, interestingly the "foot" in biblical hebrew is sort of equivelent to an "ama", or the part of the arm between the elbow and the wrist
20:37 nothingmuch that's much more consistent
20:37 Juerd Of a child? David? Goliath?
20:37 nothingmuch especially with people counting lengths of fabric or string
20:37 webmind Juerd, only a few
20:38 vcv- has joined #perl6
20:38 nothingmuch Juerd: Most average adults are roughly the same
20:38 nothingmuch around a foot ;-)
20:38 webmind Juerd, I see little consistency in imperial units
20:38 Juerd nothingmuch: For units, precision is preferred. And that asks for precise definition, where "most" can't have any place.
20:38 vcv- Taking a break from outside. im too told for running around all day
20:38 svnbot6 r3685, autrijus++ | * prettify VError when propagating up.
20:39 Juerd nothingmuch: I agree that in ancient times, body based units were perhaps more useful
20:39 nothingmuch Juerd: well, in biblical times I guess percision was not very practical
20:39 * webmind is going to get his tired head away from his laptop and fry some random contents of his fridge... cya
20:39 Juerd nothingmuch: It is now, though.
20:39 Juerd webmind: Have fun frying ice cream!
20:39 nothingmuch Juerd: don't worry, I don't count rope lenghts with my arm
20:39 Juerd Do you ever measure rope?
20:39 nothingmuch nope =)
20:40 Juerd I measure UTP quite often. But never rope.
20:40 nothingmuch define: UTP
20:40 Juerd unshielded twisted pair.
20:40 nothingmuch ah
20:40 Juerd The nowadays standard ethernet cable.
20:40 * nothingmuch calls it cat-5
20:40 Juerd The thing you terminate with RJ45 connectors
20:40 Juerd I would, but it's cat 5*e*
20:40 webmind Juerd, how do you know I have icecream in my fridge?
20:41 Juerd And cat 5 can be STP or FTP as well.
20:41 nothingmuch yep, yep
20:41 Juerd webmind: I know where your house lives.
20:41 nothingmuch what's FTP?
20:41 Juerd nothingmuch: Foiled
20:41 nothingmuch isn't that the std?
20:41 Juerd No
20:41 webmind Juerd, hmm you could have eaten it aswell.. I have little trust in cherry/chocote icecream
20:41 Juerd UTP is just plastic.
20:41 webmind but now gone
20:41 Juerd No metal, except for the copper conductor
20:42 nothingmuch most cables I cut had a foil, some nylon, a nlon thread, some grounding wire, and the 4 pairs
20:42 Juerd nothingmuch: That's not UTP then :)
20:42 nothingmuch i guess that's why I call it cat-5 =)
20:42 Juerd UTP is much cheaper, and in most cases sufficient.
20:42 nothingmuch Beer Sheva is technologically deprived
20:42 nothingmuch and this stuff was the cheapest I found
20:43 Juerd For simple 100base-tx use, cat5e utp is already overkill.
20:43 Juerd nothingmuch: What did it cost per meter?
20:43 nothingmuch i don't recall
20:43 perlbot has joined #perl6
20:43 * integral found the hard way that getting the twists right is the difference between GigE working and not
20:43 * Juerd pays around EUR 40 per 305 meters (1000 ft... sigh...)
20:43 nothingmuch probably about 20-30 euro cents
20:44 Juerd My cable costs 13 cents :)
20:44 nothingmuch 305 meters? what do you network?
20:44 Juerd nothingmuch: Almost everything.
20:44 webmind Juerd, imported from the empire /
20:44 Juerd webmind?
20:44 webmind Juerd, imperial?
20:44 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:45 Juerd nothingmuch: It can be quite practical at lan parties and the like as well.
20:45 nothingmuch Juerd: don
20:45 nothingmuch 't have many of those
20:45 Juerd I have a box of UTP in my car, standard.
20:45 nothingmuch only at work, and we have a pretty good infrastructure
20:45 nothingmuch oh my
20:45 Juerd Many small companies don't have good infrastructure, and are housed in old buildings
20:46 nothingmuch i just networked my house, and that's it
20:46 Juerd That's where simpler cabling is nice to have.
20:46 Juerd Oh, I networked house and office too
20:47 Juerd In fact, there are 7 ethernet connections spare that don't get used
20:47 * webmind networked without cable
20:47 webmind much easier
20:47 Juerd In my office that is
20:47 webmind well
20:47 webmind at home
20:47 Juerd Just because cable is cheap and opening up the ceiling is a lot of work, and messy too
20:48 estel has joined #perl6
20:48 Juerd Ooh
20:48 Juerd Yesterday was a profitable day, advertisement-income-wise
20:49 Juerd $27 :)
20:49 Juerd That's exceptional.
20:49 nothingmuch What's your line of work?
20:49 Juerd Computers in the broadest sence
20:49 Juerd sense even
20:49 nothingmuch so basically contract jobs for whoever pays you to do _?
20:49 Juerd Yes
20:50 Juerd I was originally going to create wonderful business software
20:50 Juerd But then RSI came, fucking up those plans
20:50 nothingmuch hehe
20:50 Juerd Now I take all work I can get and handle.
20:50 Juerd :(
20:50 stevan autrijus: ping?
20:51 nothingmuch I realized that software must be maintained
20:51 nothingmuch for me it was much more pathetic, the realization that wasn't going to work out
20:51 Juerd Of which I think I only really enjoy building and configuring servers
20:51 nothingmuch sorry about the 'hehe', came before the 'RSI' comment. Didn't plan to sound like an arse
20:51 Juerd I guessed that
20:52 nothingmuch my work is actually pretty fun, on the whole. Lots of variation
20:52 Juerd I'm stupid in my sysadmin work, though. I like doing it, but I use Debian, so the boxes need very little maintenance.
20:52 nothingmuch "hey, do you think you could do this and that?"
20:52 Juerd Oh, I get variation alright.
20:52 autrijus stevan: pong -- sorry I got distracted
20:53 Juerd One day I can be ridding a Win32 network of viruses, another trying to figure out a solution to spam floods, and the day after that I'm selling hardware.
20:53 stevan autrijus: thats okay
20:53 Juerd I wish there was more demand for Perl here. I'd love to teach.
20:53 Juerd It's something I could do without using my hands, and it is much closer to my original plans.
20:53 stevan autrijus: hyperops and such are much cooler :)
20:53 autrijus exactly.
20:54 mugwump moinmoin
20:54 autrijus I just implemented ??? !!! ...
20:54 stevan hola mugwump
20:55 pjcj do we have a !!!1!l!one operator?
20:55 Juerd pjcj: That's just too many arguments for !!!.
20:55 Juerd pjcj: it takes none.
20:55 estel has quit IRC ("Konversation terminated!")
20:57 * nothingmuch goes back to formulating a PA02 sentance
20:57 Juerd What is PA?
20:58 Juerd A8n?
20:58 Arathorn has joined #perl6
20:59 Juerd (Just TRY and convince people that the plural for A8n is A7a :))
20:59 mugwump pugs architecture?
20:59 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
20:59 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:59 osfameron_ apocryphon iirc
20:59 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Got arrested for going 14400 in a 2400 zone [Time wasted online: 11hrs 24mins 20secs]")
20:59 Juerd Good night, aankhenbacktickbacktick
21:01 * mugwump notes that a8n could also be admonition, apparition or aspiration
21:01 Juerd Thanks for that insight.
21:01 mugwump np
21:03 nothingmuch Juerd: docs/02Internals.pod
21:03 Juerd So, yes, apocryphon.
21:04 Juerd Line 32 is 81 characters
21:04 nothingmuch fixed
21:04 Juerd =pod and =cut are entirely redundant
21:05 nothingmuch They are just a habit, I think
21:05 Juerd =pod is always redundant before =anything, and =cut makes no sense in a .pod file
21:05 nothingmuch removed
21:05 Juerd Doesn't svn have a means of tagging the file with the latest revision?
21:06 iblech has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:06 autrijus yes, $Id$
21:06 autrijus I don't really use that though.
21:07 Juerd I was thinking it could save a lot of work eventually for the "this document was last updated..." lines
21:07 nothingmuch $Id$ is noise... =(
21:07 autrijus Juerd: grammar fixes.
21:07 Juerd Are revisions as well :)
21:07 nothingmuch Juerd: I disagree... Someone might fix a typo, or change slightly, but it could remain out of date
21:07 autrijus and will confuse people :)
21:07 Juerd Okay.
21:08 nothingmuch I think that comment will go away soon, too
21:08 nothingmuch soon = when pugs is 2-3 times as old as it is now ;-)
21:08 Juerd That's like, long time away.
21:09 nothingmuch Only relatively =)
21:09 * Juerd wonders if summer holidays will increase of decrease pugs development
21:09 autrijus increase, I think.
21:09 svnbot6 r3686, autrijus++ | * ??? !!! ...
21:09 svnbot6 r3686, autrijus++ | * `fail_` should be fine outside subroutine too
21:09 svnbot6 r3687, autrijus++ | * minor cleanup to ChangeLog
21:09 ihb Juerd: yeah, that could be interesting.
21:10 autrijus but honestly I can't see anything decreasing pugs development in the coming months :)
21:10 autrijus other than, say, me hitting by a bus
21:10 autrijus (but even that will only decrease it temporarily)
21:10 Juerd autrijus: Well, people go to far away places, with more sun than internet connection
21:10 stevan you AND iblech getting hit by buses
21:10 stevan *that* would be bad
21:11 autrijus I'm sure integral Corion gaal and nothingmuch etc will carry on :)
21:11 stevan slow but never stop :)
21:11 Corion Ah, I will go to Braga, and thus won't be hacking on Pugs, at least not during the day for two weeks
21:11 ihb yeah! keep up the fight!
21:11 ihb oh, this isn't #politics. sorry.
21:12 Juerd ihb: What makes you think that?
21:12 Corion Oooo. ... is in ??? Yay !!!
21:12 ihb the channel name says #perl6.
21:12 Juerd ihb: How does that make you feel?
21:12 * Juerd is the new eliza
21:12 ihb Juerd: eliza bot mode?
21:13 ihb haha
21:13 autrijus Corion: touché
21:13 Juerd Are you sure?
21:13 autrijus now... what does the "Oooo" operator do?
21:13 autrijus ;)
21:13 Corion ;))
21:13 autrijus it's a shorthand for capitalize()!
21:14 mugwump forward the enclosing source file to Perlmonks?
21:14 Juerd autrijus: Hm! Perl 6 can natively support OokOok if it has macros!
21:14 Juerd Imagine this, INLINE OOKOOK
21:14 Corion Juerd: You're thinking of COBOL again :)
21:14 Juerd No, not cobol
21:14 autrijus I wonder if there is a capitalise() form in addition to capitalize()
21:14 autrijus is this the first builtin that has the -ize suffix?
21:14 Juerd http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/ook.html
21:15 Juerd autrijus: I'd just call it caps.
21:15 nothingmuch i think the most amusing esoteric language to me is beatnik: http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/beatnik.html
21:15 ihb gah, do i have to spell that long anme? i want an operator!
21:15 Juerd To also indicate that it adds multiple.
21:15 Corion Bah. One must subscribe to glasgow-haskell-users. Is anyone subscribed to glasgow-haskell-users-owner@haskell.org and can forward my message?
21:15 mugwump capitalise is the canonical form of course :)
21:16 mugwump oh, actually I lie
21:16 Juerd compared to uc, lc, lcfirst and ucfirst, capitali<[sz]>e is too long.
21:16 Juerd caps is just about right, length wise, and wrt meaning
21:16 autrijus why do we want that builtin anyway :)
21:16 autrijus mugwump: hm? what is actually the canonical form?
21:16 Juerd autrijus: For English and Americans who want their silly "title case"
21:17 Juerd autrijus: Which this doesn't even properly implement.
21:17 autrijus exactly!
21:17 Juerd autrijus: In other words: I have absolutely no idea why anyone would use this, even if it were a module.
21:17 mugwump autrijus: I was just looking at whether "capitalise" was ever 'correct' English, and given the results of putting 'capitalise' into askoxford.com, I don't think so
21:17 * nothingmuch is disappointed that lazy context did not receive any feedback from @Larry
21:17 autrijus mugwump: ah. well, the canonical form is 首字大寫 anyway
21:18 autrijus ;)
21:18 ihb there already exists such a module: Text::Capitalize -- capitalize strings ("to WORK AS titles" becomes "To Work as Titles")
21:18 clkao 大首('orz')
21:18 ihb (to Juerd)
21:18 autrijus clkao: indeed! that makes the head bigger!
21:18 autrijus clkao: talk about DWIM!
21:18 clkao bwahaha
21:18 Juerd ihb: Yes, but that's not what Perl 6's capitalize does
21:19 ihb Juerd: oh, i thought you said it was used for titles.
21:19 Juerd ihb: And, something that does title case should probably be rude and claim tc, to go with lc and uc
21:19 Arathorn presumably p6's capitalize has no idea that prepositions shouldn't be capitalised...
21:19 autrijus Juerd: I wonder who brought up .capitalize
21:19 mugwump now that we've got unicode, should uc("ä") be "Ä" ?
21:20 * mugwump bahs at encodings
21:20 Juerd ihb: capitalize simply s/^|<after ws>./{ uc $/ }/'es
21:20 ihb how often do you use ucfirst()/lcfirst(), btw?
21:20 Juerd Often.
21:20 ihb when?
21:21 autrijus I often use the interpolation form.
21:21 Juerd lcfirst never, ucfirst quite often
21:21 * nothingmuch noticed he drifted very far away from those things
21:21 Juerd Me too
21:21 clkao oRZ
21:21 nothingmuch it's been sooo long since i've done math in perl, more than basic addition/incrementing, or related arith
21:21 nothingmuch or "pretty" string formatting
21:21 nothingmuch except for progress reports
21:21 Juerd ihb: capitalize simply s/[ ^ | <after ws> ]./{ uc $/ }/'es
21:22 Juerd Sorry about the previous version. It was wrong.
21:22 ihb i survive.
21:23 Arathorn dude, you've got ^b's in your regexp... :)
21:23 Juerd Of course, it's even clearlier written as s/<after ^|ws>./{ uc $/ }/
21:23 Juerd Arathorn: Dude, your irc client must really suck ;)
21:23 Arathorn hehe
21:23 * Arathorn no comment
21:25 osfameron has joined #perl6
21:25 Juerd ihb: In normal language, in a somewhat more grokkable world without chromatics and brian d foys, every sentence begins with a capital.
21:26 Arathorn latin doesn't...
21:26 Juerd ihb: So for titles in web pages, as entered by users, I often apply ucfirst because the users themselves are to stupid to remember to do this.
21:26 Corion Example sentences: paris is in france. washington is in the US of A.
21:26 Juerd Arathorn: LATINHASNOLOWERCASELETTERSANDITHASNOS​PACESANDITHASNODIFFERENCEBETWEENVANDU
21:26 ihb Juerd: haha, of course. yeah. i don't have to deal with stupid users :-)
21:26 Juerd Arathorn: Real latin, that is :)
21:27 nothingmuch atin-lay
21:27 Arathorn carved latin, perhaps - cursive latin script had cases :)
21:27 Juerd Corion: Thank you for the visual support :)
21:27 Corion Juerd: Both sentences begin with a capital!
21:27 Juerd Corion: And yet they don't! Whoa!
21:27 Corion :)
21:29 mugwump so.  ext/Perl-MetaModel/lib/Perl/Cxt.pm.  Succint translation of Haskell to Perl types or missing the point?
21:29 nothingmuch autrijus: I forgot what doBind does
21:29 stevan mugwump: can you svn up and take a look at docs/perl6_meta_meta_class_hierarchy.pod  
21:29 stevan r3688
21:29 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:30 stevan autrijus: if you could take a look too that would be cool
21:30 svnbot6 r3688, Stevan++ | Perl::MetaModel - More diagrams, better pseudo code examples; I think this is getting close :)
21:30 stevan and anyone else for that matter :)
21:30 autrijus nothingmuch: it binds stuff.
21:30 autrijus nothingmuch: and takes care of name shadowing in
21:31 autrijus sub foo ($x, $y=$x)
21:31 autrijus by special casing for Syn "default"
21:31 nothingmuch ah
21:31 autrijus it's the [ApplyArg] generator
21:32 Juerd Is ($x = $y, $y) valid?
21:32 Juerd How about ($x = $y, $y = $x)?
21:32 autrijus Juerd: it's valid but does not mean what you think it means.
21:32 mugwump stevan: why say, a Role is "flattened"?  Surely if you add behaviour to a role after attaching it to classes etc, you want those classes to be updated already?
21:32 Juerd I'm not thinking much of it
21:32 autrijus Juerd: the $y in ($x = $y) is an outer scope.
21:32 Juerd I see
21:33 stevan mugwump: hmmm, that is an interesting case
21:33 Juerd I'm beginning to think it may be fruitful to separate arguments using semicolons, in signatures.
21:33 stevan mugwump: however, roles are supposed to be flattened into the class
21:33 Juerd This probably won't get broad support.
21:33 stevan when a role is added at runtime it creates an anon class
21:33 autrijus Juerd: I'll support it.
21:33 nothingmuch pascal traumas may surface
21:34 nothingmuch i think it works well when the params are complex
21:34 mugwump when it is added at runtime to a *variable* it creates a new anon class
21:34 nothingmuch but that it's asymetric with:
21:34 stevan I ended having to go back and read more about them and the Traits paper from which they were originally spawned
21:34 mugwump aiui
21:34 Juerd Currently, argument definitions look too much like expressions
21:34 nothingmuch function(1, 2);
21:34 Juerd Simply changing , to ; can fix that instantly.
21:34 nothingmuch sub function ($one; $two);
21:34 stevan mugwump: yes, to a variable
21:34 Juerd nothingmuch: Yes, but it's already asymmetric with everything else in Perl, so that can't be a good reason.
21:35 stevan however everything i read indicated that roles are composed/flattened at compile time
21:35 Juerd Signatures are a mini language, like regexes
21:35 nothingmuch Juerd: but this could be *really* confusing to newbies
21:35 Juerd nothingmuch: All the better.
21:35 nothingmuch better?
21:35 Juerd Yes
21:35 Juerd If there's one important lesson every newbie must learn, it's: don't guess, don't assume.
21:36 nothingmuch rationalize please =)
21:36 stevan mugwump: it is dangerous to think of Roles as being too much like classes
21:36 stevan because they really are different
21:36 nothingmuch i think that the common case, sub foo ($a, $b) should stay trivial
21:36 nothingmuch because there's just too much context
21:36 Juerd nothingmuch: The symmetry between foo(a, 3) and an ($a, $b) signature is dangerous.
21:36 nothingmuch every language on earth does it that way
21:36 Juerd nothingmuch: So I think breaking the symmetry is a good idea.
21:37 Juerd nothingmuch: You can write foo($a, $b) and foo($a + 3, $b), but not have a signature of ($a + 3, $b).
21:37 Juerd nothingmuch: Neither can you write my $a + 3 = 5;
21:37 wolverian why not? :)
21:38 autrijus indeed, why not. :)
21:38 autrijus it has a very precise meaning.
21:38 * nothingmuch doesn't have a real reason to go against ; in params except for asymetry
21:38 autrijus my $a + 3 = 5;
21:38 autrijus say $a; # 2
21:38 Corion Because Pugs is not Prolog :)
21:38 Juerd nothingmuch: I havo no real reason to go *for* ; except asymmetry.
21:38 mugwump stevan: ok.. but is there a good reason, other than dispatch optimisation, that roles should be flattened?
21:38 autrijus Corion: s/not/not yet/
21:38 nothingmuch i think the mapping symetry brings is very useful
21:38 Corion autrijus: ;)
21:38 Juerd autrijus: That doesn't actually work like that, does it?
21:39 Corion Ovid should port his WAM :)
21:39 autrijus Juerd: in some languages it does.
21:39 nothingmuch but dunno... p6l?.
21:39 Juerd autrijus: Now, sqrt($x) = 4, $x == 16?!
21:39 Juerd autrijus: Perl is not some languages in that respect
21:39 autrijus Juerd: yeah.
21:39 stevan mugwump: because they are meant to be reusable chunks, when we start dispatching then we begin to get into a whole mess of other things
21:39 autrijus it would be kind of fun for it to do that via a module, though :)
21:39 Juerd autrijus: This means every expression needs to be an lvalue, which ... makes my head spin.
21:39 autrijus Juerd: Curry and Oz does that happily :D
21:40 clkao e/win23
21:40 nothingmuch in p5 can overloaded operator methods be lvalue?
21:40 Juerd just_make_it_so_that(sqrt($x) == 16);  # grin
21:40 wolverian $a + $b = 5; $b = 2*$a; say $a;
21:40 stevan mugwump: remember any reference to $?CLASS or $?SELF in a Role is deffered to runtime and is taken to mean "the class which implemented the role"
21:40 autrijus Juerd: right, just_make_it_so_that is a primitive in those languages.
21:40 stevan mugwump: that alone makes me think we should be flattening
21:40 Corion autrijus: Are you subscribed to glasgow-haskell-users ?
21:40 mugwump sure, this is the difference between is and does
21:40 autrijus Corion: no
21:40 Juerd autrijus: Not Perl, please.
21:40 autrijus Juerd: not by default, sure :)
21:41 Juerd This sort of thing doesn't work well with sequential execution, I think.
21:41 stevan mugwump: yes it is, but it will get really hairy
21:41 Corion Gah. So I'll have to subscribe to fire off that one message, and then unsubscribe again ...
21:41 autrijus Juerd: neither does Rules, really...
21:41 stevan mugwump: have you read the original Traits paper? and the Formal Trait model paper?
21:42 stevan mugwump: they make a very good case for flattening
21:42 mugwump can you summarise why that is more than an implementation detail?
21:42 stevan mugwump: not easily :)
21:43 stevan mugwump: Roles are all about composition
21:43 stevan and to me composition makes more sense when we are flattening
21:44 stevan mugwump: part of the problem I see with allowing runtime Role manipulation to affect classes
21:44 stevan is that you have to deal very specifically with conflicts
21:44 stevan and a change in a Role would require all classes which implement the Role to re-evaluate their relatioship
21:44 stevan a Role conflict is a fatal error
21:44 stevan (IIRC that is)
21:45 larsen has quit IRC ("brb")
21:45 stevan so by altering a Role at runtime and expecting Classes to update
21:45 larsen has joined #perl6
21:45 mugwump is that a problem?  if you play with stuff like that at runtime you expect a lot to happen
21:45 stevan mugwump: well, if I played with a class like that
21:45 stevan I would not expect it to die
21:45 stevan I would expect weirdness
21:45 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
21:45 stevan but not death
21:46 iblechbot_ has joined #perl6
21:46 stevan mugwump: what do you see as the advantage of being able to do this?
21:47 stevan if it is useful, then I can see trying to make it work
21:47 stevan but if it is just a black hole of problems waiting to happen
21:47 stevan why support it?
21:48 kelan because someones black hole of problems is someone else's useful?
21:49 mugwump largely because I can't see the black hole yet.
21:50 stevan kelan: I am not sure i agree with you in this case
21:52 stevan mugwump: ok, thats fair
21:52 stevan Let me explain what I see :)
21:52 mugwump It is a good question, and I don't think we know enough yet to decide on it tbh
21:53 mugwump stevan: have you tried using Umbrello before?
21:53 stevan mugwump: no, i am not familiar with it
21:54 nothingmuch good night
21:54 mugwump it's just I think that this ascii art can be a little confusing with so many items
21:54 stevan mugwump: I agree, however I am not on Linux
21:54 stevan I have OmniGraffle for OS X though
21:54 xinming has joined #perl6
21:54 mugwump can it grok .xmi?
21:55 stevan no idea, but I can check :)
21:55 mugwump eg, docs/class/ducktyping.xmi
21:55 stevan yes, thats what I was going for
21:56 iblech has joined #perl6
21:56 stevan no it cannot
21:57 mugwump damn, and umbrello is kde as well
21:57 stevan mugwump: looking for an xmi editor right now
21:58 stevan mugwump: ever heard of Violet?
21:58 stevan http://www.horstmann.com/violet/
21:59 iblechbot has quit IRC (Success)
22:00 * mugwump starts violet
22:01 * mugwump curses at crappy JVMs
22:01 japhy has joined #perl6
22:01 svnbot6 r3689, iblech++ | ChangeLog -- Typo fixes and mention of `CHECK {...}`.
22:02 japhy what namespace should I give my extension module of Regexp::Parser for parsing Perl 6 rules in Perl 5?
22:02 japhy Perl6::Regexp::Parser?
22:02 japhy or just Perl6::Regexp?
22:03 stevan mugwump: it starts for me, but it's kinda clunky
22:03 mugwump what about argouml?  apparently that one's quite developed
22:03 stevan mugwump: I will give it a try
22:03 stevan mugwump: however I want to go back to the Role thing
22:04 mugwump ok
22:04 stevan Part of what I see as the "good part" of Roles is that they are composed
22:04 stevan if they were not composed, and just dispatched too, then they would really just be classes which cannot be instantiated
22:05 stevan abstract classes or something
22:05 kelan japhy: if its still a parser (which i'm guessing it is since you say it parses:) i would leave ::Parser at the end
22:05 stevan the composition, and the tight rules for that composition make them "safer" in a way
22:06 mugwump what way is that?
22:06 mugwump in that you know at compile time rather than run time if there is a dispatch problem?
22:06 japhy ok.
22:06 japhy Perl6::Rules::Parser or Perl6::Regexp::Parser?
22:06 stevan mugwump: yes, the compile time vs/ runtime knowledge is helpful
22:07 japhy should I call it "Rules" since that seems to be the Perl6 word for "regexes" now?
22:07 stevan mugwump: I cannot explain this well enough
22:08 stevan I really suggest you read these papers....(links coming)
22:08 kelan i would say yes, japhy. but maybe singular: Perl6::Rule::Parser
22:08 kelan as the Perl 5 name is singular
22:08 japhy oh, right-o.
22:09 stevan http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/oobib.cgi​?query=nathanael+traits+composable+units+ecoop
22:09 japhy good deal.  thanks.  I know it's a minor thing, I just want to take care of the nits now, rather than later.
22:09 mugwump I like the parallel you drew between roles being abstract classes.  this seems to work, as multiple inheritance can be used for roles-like things, and roles can be used for class-like things too
22:09 stevan http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/cgi-bin/o​obib.cgi?query=Traits+the+Formal+Model
22:09 japhy has left
22:09 stevan mugwump: but I think the power of roles is in that they are *not* just abstract classes
22:09 stevan I have to take my dog out, bbiab
22:12 osfameron violet-- # clunky and buggy
22:12 mugwump 143 pages for the Ph.D thesis!
22:13 mugwump heh, "millions of programmers".  yeh, right
22:13 Juerd What paper size? Font size? Margins? Line and letter spacing?
22:13 Juerd Pages are a bad unit for text size management :)
22:16 stevan mugwump: its a dense 143 pages too
22:19 stevan avoiding inheritance (or inheritance like things) means we can avoid some of the uglier mi issues
22:20 stevan and the conflict resolution allows you too "fix" the others
22:20 mugwump ok.  this description of traits is not the same as Perl roles, particularly wrt state
22:20 mugwump as roles can and sometimes must have state
22:20 stevan yes that is true
22:21 stevan they (the traits researchers) are actually adding the ability to have state into Traits
22:21 stevan I am looking over some of the newer papers now actually
22:21 mugwump this flattening doesn't have to happen in the Model, ie SomeClass.meta, but must happen at the package level (ie, SomeClass)
22:21 mugwump Whether this happens at runtime or compile time is a matter of whether the dispatch resolution is lazy or not
22:21 stevan grab the "Traits: A Mechanism for Fine-grained Reuse" paper from here: http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg​/Research/Traits/index.html
22:22 stevan it looks like they have included state in that model
22:22 stevan (I need to read this one myself actually)
22:23 mugwump sheesh that Stephane likes to re-use the same content for multiple papers...
22:23 stevan :P
22:23 stevan I agree, it should not happen at the meta level, but at the user level
22:23 stevan package level, whatever
22:24 stevan but it is more than just dispatch resolution
22:24 mugwump I was having some thoughts about the difference between the "SomeClass" object and the "SomeClass.meta" object
22:24 stevan the act of composition requires you to do conflict resolution
22:25 mugwump so, perhaps SomeClass.meta.ref =:= ::Class, and SomeClass.ref =:= ::ComposedClass
22:25 stevan the rules for conflict resolution are different for Roles then they are for classes
22:25 stevan mugwump: yes that makes sense (if I am understanding you correctly)
22:26 mugwump Good.  So, we can keep the deep structure on the .meta objects, and flatten them in the "composed" class objects, which is effectively a cache of the dispatch resolution process
22:27 mugwump very much like those odd stash entries you'll see in any package's stash after method dispatch in Perl 5
22:27 stevan mugwump: yes
22:27 stevan the does() heirarchy does not go away
22:27 stevan it is just "cached" yes
22:33 mugwump These are your .*::Behaviour objects?
22:34 stevan The Behavior objects just implement the methods needed to compose Classes and Roles
22:34 stevan addMethod() addRole() etc
22:34 stevan I borrowed that from Smalltalk
22:35 stevan otherwise we end up duplicating those methods in the MetaClass, the Class and the Role
22:36 mugwump on the one hand we don't want to duplicate code, but on the other hand we can't have the implementation of the MetaMetaModel affecting how the MetaModel works
22:36 stevan mugwump: well the way I have it implemented it wont
22:37 stevan at least I think it wont, I need autrijus to fix an issue before I can really tell
22:38 stevan The MetaMetaModel needs to be able to compose metaclasses out of properties, methods and roles
22:38 stevan the MetaModel needs to be able to do the same
22:38 stevan but not pass that ability on
22:39 stevan down to the "user" layer
22:39 * stevan wonders if he and mugwump have bored everyone else to sleep with all this meta-meta stuff
22:40 mugwump Well, I think we have arrived at something that significantly alters at least perl6_meta_model.pod
22:40 stevan yes
22:40 stevan I recognize that :)
22:40 stevan (and anguished over it)
22:41 stevan but still I believe pretty strongly in this model now
22:41 stevan which is not to say that I think it is perfect or 100% correct
22:41 stevan or that it cannot stand improvement
22:41 mugwump All we have to do with the MetaMetaModel is make it powerful enough to represent the data structures implied in the VCode.pm, Param.pm, etc
22:43 stevan mugwump: yes, I purposfully ignored that part for now though
22:43 stevan but I see no real reason it is not possible
22:44 * stevan goes to check that for sure
22:45 stevan mugwump: yes, i see no reason why the MetaMetaModel cannot handle that
22:46 stevan mugwump: I see no reason what the metaclass(Role) needs to be able to invoke a method, do you?
22:47 stevan if you cannot instantiate it, you cannot invoke a method on it
22:47 stevan unless we have Role methods, but I am not sure they make sense
22:49 stevan I also think we definitely need some kind of meta-proxy object to be returned from .meta()
22:49 svnbot6 r3690, iblech++ | * &::("infix:<[+]>") and &::("prefix:«+<<»") and co. work now.
22:49 svnbot6 r3690, iblech++ | * Removed a wrong test from operator_overloading.t.
22:51 iblech So one can assign to .meta, you mean?
22:51 stevan iblech: no, because exposing the true MetaClass would be exposing the implementation
22:52 iblech Ah, I understand
22:52 stevan I see the .meta() method (according to s12) as providing read-only information
22:53 stevan however I wonder (and I didnt see this in S12) if you would be able to create your own MetaClasses?
22:54 frodo72 has joined #perl6
22:54 iblech I hope this is allowed, although yet I don't really know what this would be good for, need to re-read your's and mugwump's docs :)
22:54 ijoyce_laptop has joined #perl6
22:54 stevan iblech: it is useful, but highly esoteric
22:54 svnbot6 r3691, Stevan++ | Perl::MetaModel - moved the invokeMethod from Role::Behavior to Class::Behavior; tests have been updated to the new namings
22:54 svnbot6 r3692, Stevan++ | whoops, arrow going the wrong way :)
22:54 stevan but I can see where some things in S12 would be easier done with metaclasses
22:55 * stevan is looking for an example
22:58 stevan iblech: somewhere I saw something like "my $foo = Foo.new() is Persistent" or something to that effect
22:59 stevan I could see that as being a runtime metaclass re-assignment
23:00 iblech ...and the metaclass takes care of writing the stuff to disk?
23:00 stevan iblech: yes
23:00 iblech nice!
23:00 stevan because the metaclass should have enough knowledge of the class implementation to do it
23:04 stevan iblech: also the "class Foo is final {}" and "class Foo is open {}" would make sense to be implemented with metaclasses
23:06 iblech Ok, then one should definitely be able to create own metaclasses, and subclass existing ones etc.
23:06 mugwump is final() is only one bit on the metamodel, but the compiled versions may be wildly different
23:06 stevan iblech: yes, the issue is how to change the metaclass, I think meta() should not be readonly though
23:07 stevan mugwump: from A12/Classes ". As such, a role may only be composed into a class or into another role, never inherited from or delegated to. That's what classes are for."
23:11 mugwump that just means you have to use "does" to use them, I think
23:11 mugwump ie, a Role is not a Type.
23:12 stevan yes
23:12 stevan but the "Roles are not inherited from or delegated to" is important
23:13 stevan A role is not a functioning "thing" it is totally abstract
23:13 mugwump sure, it needs to be substantial to be delegated to
23:13 mugwump or inherited from, and it is insubstantial
23:14 mugwump if Dog is a role and you use `my Dog $spot', you are creating a new Type that .does(Dog)
23:14 * stevan really has to read A12 again
23:14 stevan mugwump: yes
23:14 stevan anon class
23:14 mugwump maybe that's not legal syntax, though
23:15 mugwump maybe you can only use my $spot does Dog if it's only a Role
23:15 stevan mugwump: I see no reason why it can't be legal
23:15 wolverian it'd be symmetric with signatures
23:15 frodo72 has quit IRC (Client Quit)
23:15 stevan it just would be un-intutive to most
23:15 mugwump it would also more clearly draw the line between substantial and insubstantial types
23:16 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
23:16 stevan you are referring to "my $spot does Dog" right?
23:16 Juerd does Dog does Cat does Kerberos does Minotaur
23:16 Juerd Freaky creature.
23:16 mugwump correct.  Basically, if a Role is not a Type, you cannot use it in a declaration where you must use a type
23:17 stevan mugwump: yes
23:17 Juerd Hm, I just started my laptop, but I see the battery's already dead
23:17 stevan however, if we want to be evil we can make that just imply the anon class
23:17 Juerd Guess I forgot to charge it
23:17 Juerd 8 minutes left
23:19 Juerd Ah well, I'll keep the juice for emergencies
23:19 Juerd Good night!
23:20 iblech 'nite
23:31 iblech Ok, checking in improved hyper op code
23:32 stevan mugwump: in A12 Larry does talk about not composing roles, but inserting them into the delegation hierarchy
23:32 stevan however the details of that he says is a "implementation detail"
23:32 mugwump ok
23:33 stevan however i think that properties maybe will need to be copied into the composed class
23:33 stevan because there needs to be an instance copy
23:33 stevan s/instance copy/instance specific copy/
23:34 stevan otherwise we would need to make Role instances of some kind
23:35 stevan I actually think this will support your "changing a Role at runtime" idea
23:35 stevan as long as  you are just changing the methods
23:36 stevan unless of course we think of accessors as closures, and then make the properties bound to the closure, and not really a "part" of the object
23:36 svnbot6 r3693, iblech++ | * [+]<<, [+]<<<<, [+]<<<<<<, etc. will now work.
23:36 svnbot6 r3693, iblech++ |   Note: [+]« does not work (isn't parsed), but I must sleep now :)
23:36 svnbot6 r3693, iblech++ | * Moved a test of arrays_and_hashes/pairs.t to data_types/pair.t.
23:36 svnbot6 r3693, iblech++ | * EOLs at EOFs.
23:37 stevan however then we force all access to properties through methods
23:37 stevan which on the meta-level might not be a problem
23:37 iblech Ok, sleep :)
23:37 stevan nite iblech :)
23:37 iblech Release tomorrow?
23:37 stevan I assume we are
23:38 iblech Ok :)
23:38 iblech Nite &
23:38 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
23:39 stevan mugwump: any thoughts?
23:40 Arathorn has quit IRC ()
23:41 vcv- So..how do you call a private mutator method on each object in an array?
23:43 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:43 svnbot6 r3694, iblech++ | Added note about hyperops to ChangeLog.
23:43 mugwump stevan: I've just tabulated the code examples in perl6_meta_model.pod, I think that a similar format could be used to explain what you mean..
23:44 stevan mugwump: ok, commited yet?
23:45 brentdax has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
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23:45 mugwump r3695
23:46 mugwump So, our "compiled" classes+roles+whatever are types..
23:48 stevan why is a Class not also an Object?
23:49 svnbot6 r3695, mugwump++ | First half of document updated with new insights on Class vs MetaClass vs Compiled classes (types)
23:49 mugwump it's a type, not a value
23:49 stevan what is a type? Object or Class?
23:49 mugwump a class is a type, but a type is neither object nor class
23:50 mugwump an object has a type
23:50 stevan oh no... sorry I mean the metaclass
23:50 stevan $meta level
23:51 stevan I am not sure i understand/agree with all the does() statements
23:51 stevan I think that is mixing roles and classes too much
23:51 stevan can you explain further?
23:51 stevan .does(Object) to me implies that Object is a Role
23:51 stevan s/Role/role/
23:52 stevan I think Object.does(Role), in that Object can do all the things a Role does (compose, etc)
23:52 mugwump ok, svn up to 3696, put a question mark by each one you don't agree with, and commit
23:53 stevan ok
23:53 mugwump .does(Type $type) does not imply a role
23:53 mugwump necessarily
23:53 stevan ok
23:54 stevan thats is where I am confused then
23:54 svnbot6 r3696, mugwump++ | add isa(Type) and does(Type) to table
23:54 stevan does() is ducktyping right?
23:54 stevan (the way you are using it)
23:54 mugwump essentially, yes
23:54 stevan ok
23:54 stevan THAT makes sense
23:54 stevan however it conflicts with the does() nomenclature
23:54 stevan maybe we should use .quacks() :)
23:54 mugwump dude, we're defining the nomenclature
23:55 stevan uhm
23:55 stevan well .does() is already been used though
23:55 stevan I am not sure we are defining it *that* much
23:55 mugwump is there a conflict with using it for the same thing?
23:55 stevan A12 is actually much more specific than S12
23:55 stevan well to me does(Something) implies that there is a Something role
23:56 mugwump if ::Something is a role, yes
23:56 stevan yes
23:56 stevan while Roles and ducktyping are for the most part the same
23:56 stevan I think duck typing does not imply roles
23:56 stevan (wait, that doesnt make sense)
23:57 stevan Roles is one way to do ducktyping
23:57 stevan but not the only way
23:57 stevan (I think that make more sense, but I am still not sure)

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