Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 mugwump I guess I don't need the built-in ASCII ones to be overloadable; there's plenty of lookalike unicode characters I can use :->
00:01 rafl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
00:02 meppl gute nacht
00:03 mugwump das bin alles du sagen!
00:05 rafl has joined #perl6
00:06 mugwump Ich bedeute, ist das alles, das Sie überhaupt sagen;)
00:09 eric256 later all.
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00:10 autrijus SamB: so you broke pugscc for this release... :-/
00:10 SamB autrijus: oops
00:10 rafl has joined #perl6
00:10 SamB how?
00:10 autrijus SamB: I think I'll revert things to before the <ref> bug
00:11 meppl so i made tests for a developer some weeks ago  :o)        thats my only contributuin as yet
00:11 SamB I thought that was there *before* I started messing with it?
00:11 autrijus SamB: that is possible. then it's not your fault :)
00:11 autrijus I merely ran "svk annotate"
00:11 autrijus and saw your name associated with the
00:11 autrijus 16860  (  bsmith 2005-05-10):          instance (Typeable a) => Show (TVar a) where
00:11 autrijus line
00:11 autrijus apologies if that's actually broken before you
00:12 autrijus meppl: that's nice :)
00:12 autrijus ok, no big deal. I'll just declare it broken.
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00:16 autrijus SamB: right, it was broken before you started hacking AST.Internals. my apologies
00:17 * autrijus wonders what really broke it
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00:23 * mugwump dashes off home to meet the guy who's installing his 55 MEGABIT uplink
00:23 autrijus :)
00:23 autrijus nice
00:24 mugwump sadly I won't get full rate to work
00:24 mugwump as we've only got a 10Mbit fibre connection here
00:25 theorbtwo You know, it's a crazy world when the 10Mbit fibre connection is the slow one.
00:27 ChanServ sets mode: +o autrijus
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00:27 autrijus sets mode: -o autrijus
00:28 autrijus so, preflight. finally
00:29 autrijus changes topic to: http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6-pre1.tar.gz | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org
00:29 theorbtwo Does this mean that I should wait to check in any Code::Exp patches?
00:30 theorbtwo (Not that I'm actively working on them at the moment...)
00:30 autrijus Preflight! http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6-pre1.tar.gz
00:30 autrijus theorbtwo: well, if you're relatively sure it won't break existing tests, go ahead :)
00:30 theorbtwo Nod.
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00:36 autrijus is anyone running smoke on the preflight? :)
00:39 wolverian sorry, have to go sleep. 25 hours or so of the waking world is too much
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00:40 autrijus that's fine :)
00:40 * autrijus ponders if letting it simmer a bit is a better idea
00:41 autrijus SamB: the compile problem is fixed. it's caused by Prelude. sorry :)
00:41 SamB you mean GHC.*?
00:42 SamB then again, I guess that is where everything in Prelude comes from...
00:42 SamB (nearly)
00:43 autrijus I mean src/perl6/Prelude.pm
00:43 autrijus SamB: got some time to run a "make test"? :)
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01:03 puetzk anyone here want to commit a patch to docs/quickref/unicode with more of the vim digraphs?
01:04 autrijus puetzk: why don't you commit yourself?
01:04 puetzk autrijus: I suppose I could ask for a committer bit too :-)
01:04 autrijus puetzk: email? :)
01:05 puetzk but then I'd have to learn haskell
01:05 svnbot6 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
01:05 puetzk not that that would be bad :-)
01:05 autrijus nah, you can commit in docs/ first :)
01:05 autrijus what's your email again?
01:05 puetzk [email@hidden.address]
01:08 autrijus invitation sent. welcome aboard!
01:08 autrijus oh wait
01:08 autrijus you're already registered.
01:08 autrijus you're a committer now :)
01:08 puetzk registered where?
01:08 autrijus in openfoundry
01:08 puetzk oh, since I submitted a bug
01:09 puetzk ok :-0
01:10 autrijus anyone on win32 willing to test the preflight?
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01:11 puetzk committed :-)
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01:17 eric256_ the call for a test still out there?
01:18 eric256_ i can run a test on Win32 if needed
01:18 autrijus woot!
01:18 autrijus yes
01:18 eric256_ do you want smoke or just a regular test run?
01:18 * theorbtw1 supposes he should do that testing thing.
01:18 autrijus eric256_: just "make test"
01:19 autrijus from the tarball in the topic
01:19 autrijus http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6-pre1.tar.gz
01:19 theorbtw1 Oh, that isn't equiv to a svn checkout?
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01:19 autrijus it's somewhat earlier
01:19 autrijus should be the same
01:19 eric256_ eww tarball?  can i just SVN a certain version?
01:20 autrijus so if you already have a checkout going, just use that
01:20 autrijus eric256_: you can use svn also. the idea of tarball is just making sure the manifest etc are right
01:20 eric256_ i'll download that then
01:20 theorbtw1 Anybody check AUTHORS?  I see it was just modified.
01:21 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
01:21 autrijus theorbtwo: I just fixed some capitalisation
01:21 autrijus hadn't run the usual script
01:23 * eric256_ waits for it to finish building
01:23 autrijus all tests clean on freebsd
01:24 autrijus still going on feather
01:24 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
01:24 * puetzk glares at Pugs.Embed.Perl5
01:25 puetzk I thought this worked yesterday
01:25 puetzk maybe I was just crazy
01:25 autrijus puetzk: what worked?
01:25 puetzk that it compiled
01:25 autrijus if you toggle between the two you'd need to rm the .o and stub files
01:25 puetzk it had never worked before
01:25 autrijus it should work
01:25 * puetzk scrubs his tree
01:25 autrijus but if you had an older build without embedperl5 in the same locatio
01:26 autrijus you need to kill the .o and stub files
01:26 puetzk it's missing a _GNU_SOURCE, so it doesn't get a declaration needed for rcrypt
01:26 * eric256_ realizes he did nmake instead of nmake unoptimized....well maybe the tests will run faster and it will balance out
01:26 puetzk at least, that's what was going wrong before
01:26 * puetzk lets it build again
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01:27 eric256_ does svnbot need fixed? someone working on that?
01:28 puetzk same failure. Hmm...
01:29 autrijus I'm fixing that
01:29 autrijus puetzk: hmm. what if you add, by hand, the _GNU_SOURCE to $ghc_flags in Makefile.PL or in Makefile
01:29 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
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01:34 * puetzk tinkers
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01:35 puetzk adding it at the top of perl5.h didn't work, which makes me think that something is specifically messing with those flags
01:35 autrijus bah. svnbot6 is beyond repair
01:35 svnbot6 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
01:35 * autrijus gives up
01:36 autrijus maybe when I'm more awake
01:37 eric256_ .me vows never to make optimized agian
01:39 theorbtwo Hm, I see what looks like an awful lot of "# Looks like you planned 42 tests, but ran 0# Looks like you planned 42 test  
01:41 autrijus theorbtwo: what files were those?
01:41 eric256_ final linking almost done! lol
01:43 puetzk hmm, actually -D_GNU_SOURCE is in the compile command line
01:43 puetzk so why *else* would crypt_data not be defined
01:43 * puetzk pokes
01:43 autrijus theorbtwo: note  that you need a "make" before "make smoke"
01:43 autrijus but "make test" will take care of that
01:43 puetzk any way to get it to dump the preprocessed header in between?
01:43 autrijus puetzk: not sure... ghc -v3 or something
01:44 theorbtwo -keep-temp -optc-keep-temps, or something very much like that.
01:45 theorbtwo It def built first.
01:45 theorbtwo Might not have built completely, though.
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01:46 theorbtwo Various ext tests.  Now that it's gotten to the core tests, it's doing much better.
01:46 eric256_ running test. so far so good
01:46 autrijus theorbtwo: yeah, I think it's because of stale pm_to_blib
01:47 autrijus theorbtwo: in ext/ tree. you're running it off a svn checkout with previous builds, right?
01:47 autrijus if so that's as expected
01:48 theorbtwo No, that was from a tarball.
01:48 autrijus uh oh.
01:49 autrijus "make smoke" or "make test"?
01:50 theorbtwo make smoke.
01:51 autrijus ok. make smoke needs a make all first
01:52 autrijus fixing that
01:54 autrijus thanks, fixed as r4313
01:54 autrijus gugod: can we have jabbot back as svnbot?
01:54 autrijus at least before iblech's return
01:54 gugod sure
01:55 autrijus gugod++
01:55 autrijus eric256_: how's the tests?
01:55 puetzk autark-jp: ok, ghc has -D_GNU_SOURCE, but it's not passing it through to gcc
01:55 * puetzk digs
01:55 eric256_ it is realy unhappy about some /builtines/system/01-strings-with-spaces file?
01:56 eric256_ NOK 127 and counting
01:56 autrijus oh wow.
01:56 eric256_ t/builtins/system/01-strings-with-spaces...........NOK 137pugs.exe: ./t/builtins
01:56 eric256_ y)
01:56 autrijus ok, thanks
01:56 eric256_ is it going to get over this and mov on? because its at 171 and still counting.
01:57 autrijus 322
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01:57 autrijus it's going to get over that
01:57 jhorwitz evening, lambdacamels.
01:57 autrijus yo jhorwitz
01:57 puetzk ah, but there's no -optc "-D_GNU_SOURCE"
01:57 jhorwitz autrijus: good to see you're alive.  ;-)
01:57 autrijus jhorwitz: I'm sick but alive ;)
01:57 theorbtwo Evening, jhorwitz.
01:58 puetzk so the literate preprocessor (-optl) gets it, and haskel itself gets it (apparently haskell itself uses CPP?), but gcc didn't
01:58 jhorwitz autrijus: just getting over something myself.
01:58 autrijus eric256_: that's the only failure so far?
01:58 * puetzk wonders if that means all the -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE and such aren't working either, or if it's supposed to pass through
01:58 eric256_ yes
01:59 autrijus jhorwitz: got time to test pre2?
01:59 autrijus eric256_: ok, keep it running
01:59 jhorwitz autrijus: will do.
02:00 eric256_ hehe t/builtins/system/01-strings-with-spaces...........FAILED tests 2-323
02:00 autrijus changes topic to: http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6-pre2.tar.gz | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org
02:00 autrijus jhorwitz: http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6-pre2.tar.gz
02:00 jhorwitz giddyup
02:00 autrijus eric256_: hm, Win2k? winxp?
02:00 eric256_ xp home
02:00 autrijus Corion will probably need to reinvestigate then
02:01 autrijus for now I'm just disabling the entire test in pre2
02:01 autrijus theorbtwo: "make smoke" with pre2 should initialise the ext/ correctly now
02:02 jhorwitz autrijus: i assume parrot is now required for testing?
02:02 autrijus jhorwitz: no, not really
02:02 autrijus jhorwitz: the rules test will skip if parrot is not found
02:02 autrijus at least that's the idea
02:02 theorbtwo Ugh, lots of missing people.
02:02 jhorwitz i'll test it anyway
02:02 autrijus k
02:03 autrijus lunch, bbiab &
02:03 theorbtwo SamB, dakkar, broquaint, naesten, fireartist, mrborisguy, simon, puetzk, cdpruden.
02:03 puetzk theorbtwo: in fairness, autrijus added me about 15 mins ago :-)
02:04 SamB theorbtwo: missing from what?
02:04 autrijus SamB: AUTHORS persumably
02:04 puetzk ah, -optl is the linker, -optL would be the literate preprocessor. Now this makes mrore sense
02:04 theorbtwo The AUTHORS file.
02:04 puetzk case-only distinctions are evil :-)
02:05 SamB um, no I'm not.
02:05 theorbtwo Yeah, but you checked in code since then, so you should be in AUTHORS.
02:06 theorbtwo Ah, but your line doesn't have "SamB", so my script couldn't see it.  (It's not quite smart enough to figure out that Samuel is Sam.
02:07 SamB okay, want me to fix it?
02:07 theorbtwo No, I will.
02:07 SamB right, makes sense.
02:07 japhy has left
02:08 theorbtwo The openfoundry people should probably buy ossf.org
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02:21 theorbtwo Anybody know simon's last name?
02:23 eric256_ any one know if t/rules/perl5 takes a long time to run?  
02:23 puetzk hmm
02:23 theorbtwo Yes.
02:23 eric256_ good. i was worried it had stuck
02:23 puetzk and ghc -optc "-pipe" ends up passing -optc to gcc
02:23 puetzk that's... weird
02:23 theorbtwo Try -optc-pipe -- no space.
02:26 puetzk same
02:27 * theorbtwo ci's an updated AUTHORS.
02:28 puetzk it's the last argument passed too, which seems suspiscious
02:29 puetzk since everything else from -optc is before ghc starts passing filenames
02:34 * theorbtwo thinks it's sleep time for him.
02:35 theorbtwo Oh, Aankhen, cpruden, gcomnz, mattc, simon: More information in AUTHORS would be quite welcome.
02:36 eric256_ autrijus that file had the only failures for me
02:37 eric256_ how do i use the modules in the ext/ directory?
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02:46 gugod weird...
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03:05 autrijus eric256_: you can "make install" and then "use" them
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03:06 mrborisguy theorbtwo: do you want me to do a commit for the sole purpose of putting my name in?  sounds a bit pointless... but i will if need be
03:06 mrborisguy (and yes, i merely forgot again)
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03:07 autrijus well, not "need" per se
03:07 autrijus simply that's kind of many people's first commit :)
03:07 autrijus but I see
03:07 autrijus Bryan "mrborisguy" Burgers
03:07 autrijus already
03:07 autrijus is that you?
03:07 jabbot pugs - 4316 - * cpan-upload.p6, the script we're going
03:07 jabbot pugs - 4317 - * simon is simon cozens. also add sri.
03:07 mrborisguy oh, hey, yeah it is
03:07 mrborisguy well then, i won't worry about it!
03:07 mrborisguy great
03:07 autrijus =)
03:08 autrijus anyone still running test for preflight?
03:08 autrijus if not I think we're going to fly :)
03:11 eric256_ all went well here.  make install in the base pugs directory? or do i need to make each module i want to use?
03:11 eric256_ well by 'all went well' i mean all but that strings_with_spaces thing
03:11 autrijus in the base pugs
03:11 autrijus nod
03:12 eric256_ that wont touch my perl5 at all though right?
03:12 eric256_ i hadn't done a make install because i was worried about that
03:13 autrijus it won't touch perl5
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03:14 autrijus $ pugs cpan-upload.p6 Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6.tar.gz
03:14 autrijus Using FTP to upload files to PAUSE
03:14 autrijus  uploading file "Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6.tar.gz"
03:17 Enveigler One minor itch. I found a bug in inc/Module/Install/Win32.pm a couple of days ago but couldn't commit because I don't have commit.
03:17 jabbot pugs - 4318 - * This be Pugs ,version 6.2.6.
03:17 autrijus Enveigler: what was it? and what's your email so I can make you a committer?
03:18 mugwump how far away is yapc/hackthon?
03:18 autrijus mugwump: 20 days
03:19 autrijus changes topic to: Pugs 6.2.6 uploaded by cpan-upload.p6! | gttp://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org
03:19 autrijus changes topic to: Pugs 6.2.6 uploaded by cpan-upload.p6! | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org
03:19 Enveigler The bug is that -        !$self->can_run('nmake') should be +        !$self->can_run('nmake.exe'). I causes Makefile.pl to download nmake v1.5 whena later better version is available.
03:21 Enveigler mupnmar02 at sneakemail dot com
03:21 mugwump cool.  That gives me a deadline of 20 days to convert as much as S29 and Prim.hs to Perl-MetaModel classes as possible :)
03:21 * mrborisguy steals that email address for spam
03:22 mrborisguy :D
03:22 mrborisguy Enveigler: just kidding
03:22 Enveigler :)
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03:53 eric256_ for =$tempfile { shouldn't that put the each line in $_ ??
03:53 eric256_ i ended up having to do for =$tempfile -> $_ { instead
03:57 jabbot pugs - 4319 - svnbot.p6 - Fixed some formating issues
04:02 autrijus eric256_: that's weird
04:04 eric256_ $0 and $1 only seem to work the first time accessed, but i'm still trying the narrow that down.
04:11 gaal morn'
04:11 eric256_ \nick eric256
04:12 gaal wha-! release?
04:12 eric256_ opps.
04:15 gaal sounds like i missed all the fun :-)
04:15 autrijus sorry for that :)
04:16 autrijus journal up. I'll nap a bit. bbiab
04:16 gaal heh, i was havin' fun asleep :-) night, er, morning, autrijus.
04:17 jabbot pugs - 4320 - * the usual props on cpan-upload.p6
04:17 jabbot pugs - 4321 - Fix 'nmake' -v- 'nmake.exe'
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04:24 Enveigler Gaal: Did you get the smoke report ?
04:24 gaal checking
04:24 gaal think not, when did you send it?
04:25 Enveigler 8 hrs ago?
04:25 gaal i'm checking the belly of my spam filter, hold on.
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04:25 Enveigler 'K
04:25 yome Hi.  Is there a channel more appropriate for Parrot discussion?  Or is this the one?
04:26 obra #parrot on irc.perl.rog
04:26 obra org
04:26 yome OK thanks.
04:26 yome has left "Leaving"
04:27 gaal oi, sorry Envigler, i hit 'd' on it this morning before i had cofee :/
04:27 gaal can you resend
04:27 gaal ?
04:28 mugwump gaal, has that looping bug gone away for you in the Set tests?
04:28 gaal (saw a random-looking address w/o a subject and 100k... ;-)
04:28 gaal mugwump, it hadn't, so i checked in a "skip_rest ; exit" in there :-)
04:31 mugwump sure, I saw that ...I assumed that the bug had been fixed, as I couldn't reproduce it
04:31 mugwump is it still happening for you on a current revision?
04:31 mugwump or the 6.2.6 release version?
04:32 mugwump (r4318)
04:32 gaal hm, let me check
04:32 gaal yikes! it's 7:30
04:32 gaal i can't chekc
04:32 gaal sorry :) i have to $work early today
04:32 gaal i really have to go now. &
04:32 mugwump np
04:33 mugwump later
04:33 gaal fwiw other people testing on win32 saw it too, work with Enveigler
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04:34 mugwump ah, it's win32 specific.  how strange
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04:44 Enveigler Sorry. I'm running nmake smoke and my screen is running like molasses. Strange. WHy won;t pugs.exe allow me to change it's priority?
04:44 japhy so look-ahead is <before PATTERN>.  this implies that rules can take arguments.
04:45 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
04:46 japhy so how is that defined?  where is that argument for the rule to access?  I don't see any mention of this anywhere
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04:47 japhy grr!
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05:02 eric256_ now that we have eval in pugs does evalbot need to use the .p5 helper? hhmmmm but then there is the Resource part.
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06:36 nothingmuch http://www.storewars.org/flash/index.html
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06:37 jabbot pugs - 4322 - * changelog: spelling nits from uri
06:37 jabbot pugs - 4323 - * ChangeLog: 80char fix.
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06:46 f0rth there are 6 irc bots in examples/network, create a sub dir for them?
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06:49 nothingmuch f0rth: i think that's a good idea
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07:25 drbean just tried to build 6.2.6, but failed
07:25 scook0 drbean: what went wrong?
07:26 drbean Parrot.hsc couldn't find parrot/packfile.h, interpreter.h,  register.h
07:27 drbean they are in my parrot build tree, but not in the tree where parrot got installed
07:27 autrijus drbean: that's right. you need to point PARROT_PATH to the build tree
07:27 autrijus drbean: the parrot installation process is b0rken.
07:27 drbean Is PARROT_PATH supposed to be the build tree, or the installation tree.
07:28 drbean OK. I understand
07:33 autrijus japhy: those are calls.
07:34 autrijus <before Foo>  merely calls Rule.before() to form a new rule
07:34 autrijus japhy: <not before Foo> calls Rule.not(Rule.before())
07:35 autrijus and those methods are in turn dispatched to parameterised rules int he current grammar.
07:35 autrijus japhy: see A05, "Defining Your Own Rules"
07:36 autrijus bbiab &
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08:14 nothingmuch Juerd: ping
08:19 nothingmuch first class signatures discussion:
08:19 nothingmuch a signature is an object
08:19 nothingmuch it can take two lists - parameters and invocants
08:19 nothingmuch and produce a first class binding
08:20 nothingmuch the binding is a reflective  object
08:20 nothingmuch allowing you to modify and query the bound parameters
08:20 nothingmuch (parameters are first class objects too, they have context, slurpiness, namedness, etc)
08:20 nothingmuch and when you are satisfied, to verify the where clauses
08:20 nothingmuch and invoke the sub
08:21 nothingmuch (from the binding)
08:21 nothingmuch Optional: argument + invocants are a first class object too
08:21 nothingmuch we have a new quoting operator:
08:21 nothingmuch signature();
08:21 nothingmuch it's like a macro
08:22 nothingmuch it takes the string inside () and makes a first class signature
08:22 nothingmuch by creating parameters with certain info, parsed from the string
08:22 nothingmuch function signatures can now be generated:
08:22 nothingmuch sub foo is signature $sig { }; # or whatever the way is, it's documented in s06 i think
08:23 nothingmuch probably done as
08:23 nothingmuch sub foo is signature BEGIN { ... generate a signature object } { ... };
08:23 nothingmuch any thoughts?
08:24 castaway (woo, monologous :)
08:24 nothingmuch =)
08:27 castaway I have absolutely no idea what you are on about, either :)
08:27 castaway (blissful ignorance)
08:27 nothingmuch well
08:27 nothingmuch you might like it
08:27 castaway Umm..
08:27 SM_ax has joined #perl6
08:27 nothingmuch function signatures are not enoug meta-meta-meta-meta IMHO
08:28 nothingmuch this is a proposition for making an API
08:28 castaway signatures are the name/params bit ? (or also the "multi" etc?)
08:28 nothingmuch all of it
08:28 nothingmuch it is the full description of the code:
08:28 nothingmuch what it takes,
08:28 nothingmuch what it returns
08:28 nothingmuch how it behaves (it's type)
08:28 nothingmuch it's attributes, maybe (is pure, is cached)
08:29 castaway Ok
08:30 castaway so hows the API bit?
08:32 nothingmuch if you want a funky demo, grep for 'method dispatch' in docs/mmd.kwid
08:32 nothingmuch Juerd: I need some feather system administration help... please pong when you have 5 mins
08:34 nothingmuch it's not the details of the API, just what it should give us
08:34 nothingmuch my $s = &foo.meta.signature;
08:34 nothingmuch $s.params ==> map { .name } ==> say;
08:34 nothingmuch sub foo ($a, $b); will yield '$a$b' in that print
08:34 nothingmuch say $s.params».context
08:34 nothingmuch "ScalarScalar"
08:35 nothingmuch i think
08:35 nothingmuch my $b = $s.bind(1, 4);
08:35 nothingmuch $b.invoke; # like foo(1, 4);
08:36 nothingmuch method assuming (Code $c, *@args){ my $b = $c.meta.signature.bind(@args); return sub { $b.invoke(@_) } };
08:36 nothingmuch i like perl 6's meta meta ness
08:36 nothingmuch you can describe most features of the language using other features
08:37 nothingmuch the atoms are conceptually very few: closures, primitives, namespaces
08:40 castaway hmm, wasnt theorbtwo fiddling with someting about exposing params ?
08:41 nothingmuch probably
08:41 nothingmuch i think we all thought about it at some point =)
08:41 castaway collaboration sounds clever here
08:41 nothingmuch announcement: I am starting an experiment
08:41 castaway hmm, and can you change the sig there? :)
08:41 nothingmuch castaway: i was thinking outloud
08:41 nothingmuch so that I can get others to think
08:41 nothingmuch http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harrorth/README
08:42 nothingmuch the experiment is writing a haskell tutorial, as I am learning haskell
08:42 castaway cool
08:42 nothingmuch if anyone wants to follow, have fun
08:42 castaway I currently have 63 other things I want to do in my spare time.. need more hours in the day :)
08:42 nothingmuch castaway: i will post my concrete ideas on p6l once I have them so they can be discussed by others
08:43 nothingmuch *cough*andeventuallywarnocked*cough*
08:43 castaway hehe
08:43 castaway well, should poke James harder.. (he keeps getting stuck places then giving up on things)
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08:49 clkao nasty cpanupload.p6!
08:50 castaway hmm?
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08:52 nothingmuch clkao: can I have the link to the we hate software images?
08:53 sri_ what's the new name of $0?
08:53 nothingmuch $/ i think
08:53 nothingmuch s04 IIRC
08:54 sri_ it's not $/
08:54 sri_ or not implemented...
08:55 nothingmuch oh wait!
08:55 nothingmuch sorry
08:55 nothingmuch i got it mixed up
08:55 nothingmuch $0 is $*PROGNAME i think
08:55 nothingmuch $0 is now an alias to $/, or something like that. It's the rule match object
08:56 nothingmuch PROGRAM_NAME
08:56 nothingmuch t/magicals/progname.t
08:56 sri_ thats it :)
08:56 sri_ thx
08:56 nothingmuch has left
08:56 * castaway was about to say it should be something with an actual name..
08:57 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
09:01 clkao nothingmuch: sure.
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09:42 mugwump yay!  Broadband at home again ... at long last
09:42 castaway grats :)
09:46 Enveigler2 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:46 scook0 mugwump: you don't notice how important it is until it's gone...
09:49 mugwump yup.  it's a bit intermittant, sadly (long range wireless)
09:49 mugwump but during its good moments it's about 4ms ping
09:50 mugwump this means I'm a lot more likely to do OSS at home now
10:07 arcady has quit IRC ("Leaving")
10:10 * mugwump downloads ghc 6.4 onto his laptop at a lovely 350kB/s
10:10 castaway heh
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10:15 * Enveigler is green with envy!
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10:27 nothingmuch clkao: dum dee dum
10:28 clkao *yawn*
10:28 nothingmuch clkao: have a salad
10:28 nothingmuch beats coffee any day
10:29 nothingmuch did you find the links yet?
10:29 clkao what links?
10:29 nothingmuch for the 'We hate software" images
10:29 Enveigler has quit IRC ()
10:29 nothingmuch oooh, sync problems
10:29 nothingmuch "w
10:30 clkao http://opensource.fotango.com/~clkao/runapp-intro/images/we_hate_software.jpg
10:31 nothingmuch grazie!
10:38 Juerd nothingmuch: pong
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10:56 nothingmuch beh
10:56 nothingmuch how much of that got through?
10:56 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
10:57 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
10:58 castaway of what?
10:58 castaway (there was nothing after Juerds "pong")
10:59 nothingmuch network problems
10:59 * castaway noticed
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12:02 nothingmuch castaway: i need db2 help
12:02 nothingmuch what's the name of the interactive shell?
12:03 castaway "db" :)
12:03 castaway ehh.. "db2"
12:03 nothingmuch hah
12:03 castaway I usually skip it and run things like: db2 "select ... " | less -S, tho
12:03 nothingmuch okay, that's good
12:04 castaway (thaht is, after doing the connect)
12:04 nothingmuch how do i do the connect?
12:04 castaway db2 "connect to <dbalias> user <user> using <password>"
12:05 nothingmuch state persists between procs? it knows how to call the correct db2agent?
12:05 castaway its quite nice in that your shell just stays connected, and you can do whatever.. disconnect with: db2 "terminate" when done
12:05 castaway I think the answer to that is yes :)
12:05 nothingmuch goody =)
12:06 castaway what're you up to, anything fun?
12:07 jabbot pugs - 4324 - * 100% Haddocks for Context.hs
12:08 castaway oh, jabbot is back, where'd the other announcerbot go?
12:08 nothingmuch castaway: we have an AIX box with 8gb of ram
12:08 nothingmuch and, for fun, aix can't meter mmap'ed memory
12:08 nothingmuch or malloc blocks larger than 256
12:09 nothingmuch so if a program needs lots of memory, it usually mmaps
12:09 nothingmuch and we can't know how much
12:09 nothingmuch we're trying a big pull from db2
12:09 nothingmuch and we want to see who is the guilty party
12:09 castaway ah, fun
12:09 nothingmuch because the box uses 7900MB of ram, and then swap-thrashes
12:09 castaway wow thats a loz
12:09 castaway lot
12:10 nothingmuch yup
12:10 nothingmuch for a fetch with no order or anything this is really a lot
12:10 nothingmuch plain old fetch without aggregation on our side is about 5000mb
12:10 nothingmuch and now i'm trying to see if it's our data fetching code, or db2agent or something like that
12:11 * castaway nods
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12:11 castaway how many millions of rows of data are we talking about?
12:11 * castaway wonders how much ram our AIX boxes have
12:11 nothingmuch 200,000,000
12:11 * castaway boggles :)
12:14 nothingmuch hah
12:15 castaway whats all that for?
12:15 nothingmuch db2 connect to db... \n
12:15 nothingmuch <delay>
12:15 nothingmuch then it finishes
12:15 nothingmuch 5gb taken
12:15 nothingmuch the delay is the time it takes to actually allocate the data
12:15 nothingmuch this is absurd
12:15 nothingmuch castaway: that's just to emphasise what I typed in the terminal
12:17 castaway ummm ?
12:17 nothingmuch doing db2 connect causes a db2agent to start
12:17 nothingmuch that db2agent allocates 5gb of memory
12:18 nothingmuch and then I can start working
12:18 castaway eh?
12:18 castaway ouch
12:18 castaway wtf?
12:18 nothingmuch since our product is configured to use 5.5 gb of memory for aggregation
12:18 castaway Oh, it preallocates? weird
12:18 nothingmuch this slurps in about 30,000,000 records
12:18 nothingmuch and then the thrashing starts
12:18 nothingmuch since we would need 2.5 extra gb
12:28 Juerd 30M records of how much bytes?
12:28 Juerd I've used 30M record tables in sqlite even, so that says nothing :)
12:28 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
12:28 Juerd Hi L~R
12:29 Limbic_Region hey Juerd - how's tricks?
12:29 Juerd tricks?
12:29 castaway guess he's no magician
12:29 castaway hey limbic
12:29 Limbic_Region it's an expression
12:30 Juerd Everything is an expression.
12:30 Limbic_Region just means how's it going
12:30 Juerd Or a statement.
12:30 Juerd Limbic_Region: How is what going?
12:30 * Limbic_Region hugs castaway
12:30 * castaway hugs back
12:30 Juerd Can I join the hug?
12:30 xern has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
12:30 castaway life, the universe, and everything!
12:30 * castaway hugs Juerd too
12:30 Juerd *hug*
12:30 * Limbic_Region thinks it is too early in the morning for Juerd's literalism
12:30 xern has joined #perl6
12:31 Juerd life is going well enough, the universe is about to implode, everything is hardly developed anymore.
12:31 castaway :)
12:31 Enveigler1 has joined #perl6
12:31 Juerd neodymium magnets ++
12:31 Juerd Amazingly strong for 5x5x5mm
12:32 * Limbic_Region is begrudgingly getting used to using IE again
12:32 Juerd Limbic_Region: Huh? Why?
12:32 Juerd Limbic_Region: Do you require medical attention?
12:32 Limbic_Region local policy I guess
12:32 Juerd I know a good psychiatrist
12:33 Limbic_Region all of a sudden FF stopped working unless I went through some bizarre incantation and rain dance
12:33 Juerd Get a new one then
12:34 Juerd Or run X remotely :)
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12:34 Limbic_Region Juerd - basically all ports have been locked down and HTTP is forced through a proxy
12:34 Limbic_Region the only way to get around this is to knowingly circumvent security
12:35 Limbic_Region not that I haven't figured out how to do that
12:35 Limbic_Region but it is pretty hard to plead ignorance
12:35 Juerd Limbic_Region: Does this proxy support CONNECT?
12:35 Juerd Can't you ssh?
12:36 Limbic_Region no ssh
12:36 Juerd How are you connected to IRC?
12:36 Limbic_Region cgiirc
12:36 Limbic_Region perlmonk.org is actually connecting to IRC
12:36 Juerd You must really hate your employer.
12:36 Limbic_Region I am merely viewing a web page
12:36 Limbic_Region not really
12:36 Limbic_Region they do it for good reason
12:36 Juerd But the reverse even more so: they must really hate you.
12:37 Limbic_Region *shrug* - they probably don't think anything of me at all
12:37 Odin-LAP Don't they always? :p
12:37 Juerd Limbic_Region: How is that?
12:38 Juerd And what about dns-tunnels, or http-tunnels?
12:38 Juerd What is your job anyway, that you can do it with such limitations?
12:38 * Limbic_Region is an information technology specialist for the US Government
12:39 meppl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
12:39 Limbic_Region and it doesn't matter if I CAN get around the restrictions - the point is I would lose my job (and likely other things as well) if I did
12:39 Juerd An IT specialist with only web access? Weird.
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12:39 theorbtwo L~R: Are your ports only cut off from the outside world, or do they expect you to admin boxes that you can only http to?
12:40 theorbtwo Er, s/from the/to the/
12:40 Limbic_Region it is actually much worse than you think
12:41 Juerd Is that possible?
12:41 Limbic_Region but I can't really talk about that
12:41 theorbtwo Ah.
12:41 theorbtwo Even more fun.
12:41 Juerd You work for the US government and you have only access to the web, and you say it's even worse than that?
12:41 sahadev has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
12:41 Juerd That's surprisingly hard to believe ;)
12:41 theorbtwo Juerd: I'd tend to believe him anyway.
12:42 Juerd (Oh, for the sniffers: come and visit me at einsteinstraat 67, 3316 gg dordrecht, the netherlands ;))
12:42 theorbtwo He works for a segment of the government that has a reputation, and possibly even a policy, of being even more paranoid then the rest of the US government.
12:42 Juerd But paranoia and productivity don't go together
12:43 Juerd How do they get anything done?
12:43 theorbtwo Juerd, what makes you think they get anything done?
12:43 theorbtwo This is the US government we're talking about.
12:43 Limbic_Region listen - I don't really feel comfortable talking about the particulars of my work environment
12:43 Juerd Limbic_Region: Sorry
12:43 Juerd theorbtwo: Hmm..
12:43 theorbtwo Sorry.
12:44 Limbic_Region it is a PITA, but what it really means for my work in perl6 is that I will only be able to use nopaste
12:44 Limbic_Region at least while I am at $work
12:44 Juerd Limbic_Region: Perhaps we can set up a web based shell interface for you, on feather.
12:44 Limbic_Region now that would be neat
12:44 Juerd Limbic_Region: Your using CGI:IRC indicates that you can use long lived http connections.
12:45 Juerd Limbic_Region: Can you use https though?
12:45 Limbic_Region yes
12:45 Limbic_Region but also forced through a proxy
12:45 Juerd https can't be proxied :)
12:46 Juerd It's a direct feed - and there is your chance to connect to anything if the other side is prepared to listen
12:46 * Limbic_Region checks his settings again
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12:47 Limbic_Region perhaps all it is doing is NATing
12:47 Juerd IIRC, https proxying is simply supporting the CONNECT request
12:47 Juerd Which essentially turns the proxy into a port forwarder (hint)
12:47 Limbic_Region but I assure you - my machine which is currently connected to gmail via https has no connections with a public IP address
12:47 Juerd That's possible.
12:47 puetzk Juerd: well, one can get more evil than that and substitute the cert :-)
12:47 puetzk I've seen that done, though it triggers a browser warning (as it should)
12:48 Juerd puetzk: Which would be noticed instantly, by clueful personell.
12:48 Limbic_Region so in other words, I have to direct all my outbound traffic to a specific host - if it is doing more than NATing is unknown to me
12:48 theorbtwo OTOH, https is designed to protect against man-in-the-middle attacks, and to be proxiable, without being seen by the proxier.
12:48 Juerd Limbic_Region: google for stunnel
12:48 theorbtwo puetzk: They could have disabled that warning, however.
12:48 puetzk theorbtwo: right
12:48 Juerd I was inaccurate
12:49 Juerd It can be proxied, but not be cached (because the data is unknown)
12:49 puetzk by making the substituted cert's CA known to the browser in their desktop baseload
12:49 puetzk then they can write forged certs to their heart's content
12:49 puetzk it's still rare
12:49 theorbtwo Note that there's not even anything that says that Limbic isn't running a version of IE with modified code; it's public knowladge that the US government has a source-code license.
12:49 Limbic_Region in any case - it isn't like I am integral to the success of Pugs
12:49 Limbic_Region I am only generating p6 code anyway
12:49 Limbic_Region not Haskell
12:49 castaway *only*?
12:50 Limbic_Region I can get by with nopasting stuff
12:50 castaway theres no only, here
12:50 puetzk Limbic_Region: of course, svn passes most HTTP proxies
12:50 Limbic_Region puetzk - against policy
12:50 puetzk Limbic_Region: why? it's plain HTTP
12:50 puetzk well, DAV
12:50 puetzk it's not tunneling, it's just actually HTTP
12:50 Limbic_Region because I am downloading stuff from an untrusted source
12:51 Limbic_Region its the same as saying you can't visit naughty sites
12:51 puetzk oh, having svn is not OK
12:51 puetzk gotcha
12:51 puetzk as opposed to using it being the problem
12:51 theorbtwo It seems like the best solution is the shell on feather.
12:51 theorbtwo That way any untrusted code runs on feather, not your machine.
12:52 Limbic_Region no - the best solution is for me to do nothing that may jeapordize my job until I have had a chance to talk to someone in security that I can trust not to make rash judgements
12:52 Juerd Limbic_Region: You could publish files on feather using webdav, and then have an irc bot execute things
12:52 Juerd :)
12:52 Juerd You know how to request an account if you want one (if you don't already have one)
12:53 Limbic_Region I do, I thank you, and I just might
12:53 Juerd Hm
12:53 Limbic_Region for now I am off to read use.perl journals
12:53 theorbtwo Or have a IRC/ssh tunnel, and use that, though the inability to type plus might kill that idea.
12:53 Juerd Even simpler: write CGI scripts that use pugs :)
12:53 Juerd You can run your personalized apache and use one cgi script to tail the error log
12:53 Juerd theorbtwo: He's using http for irc
12:54 puetzk Juerd: one would assume if browsing http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs is verboten, that using IRC is too :-)
12:54 Juerd theorbtwo: Through a CGI gateway
12:54 theorbtwo Juerd: He can run his own apache and still have it on port 80?
12:54 theorbtwo Juerd: I know.
12:54 Juerd theorbtwo: Why is port 80 required?
12:54 theorbtwo Because that's the only port he can see.
12:54 Juerd (If necessary, I can assign feather a second IP, but it shouldn't be)
12:54 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
12:54 theorbtwo Hm, possibly not.
12:54 Juerd theorbtwo: He hasn't said that here.
12:55 theorbtwo Yeah, I just thought it over again, and he didn't, my bad.
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13:04 Juerd [gemeente dordrecht]++  # they have a ticketing system for stuff like broken traffic lights
13:05 webmind netjes
13:05 theorbtwo Very cool, Juerd.
13:06 Juerd http://cms.dordrecht.nl/dordt?nav=wmrkIsHaKnPTmwaBjqaBhHL
13:08 mrborisguy has joined #perl6
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13:13 Limbic_Region question - anyone know how to uninstall firefox?
13:13 sahadev has joined #perl6
13:15 castaway on what?
13:15 theorbtwo Add/Remove programs?
13:15 Limbic_Region Windows - and that doesn't work theorbtwo - I think it has to do with the fact that I didn't have admin rights when I installed it
13:15 Limbic_Region nevermind me - I will figure it out
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13:16 PerlJam good morning #perl6
13:17 Juerd Limbic_Region: Remove its directory and syml^H^H^H^Hshortcuts to it, and it's practically gone. Windows is never clean anyway, so why try?
13:17 PerlJam I was just looking over the release announcement ... What's with the "exclusive range" ops?  Is that a pugs feature or was that specced somewhere?
13:17 Juerd PerlJam: Specced
13:17 Juerd I think they're overkill.
13:18 Juerd We know how to +1 or -1, thank you.
13:18 Juerd Before you know it, every string operator will have a case insensitive variant
13:18 puetzk Juerd: of course, if they work on floats that could be interesting
13:18 puetzk but they probably don'e :-0
13:19 integral the problem is that there's no way to tell the difference between a float and an int...
13:19 integral plus ranges on enumerable types, and intervals on continuous types are quite different
13:22 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
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13:36 Limbic_Region IE crisis averted
13:36 Limbic_Region ;-)
13:37 jabbot pugs - 4325 - Enveigler | Allow pugs to find 'ghc.exe'
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13:53 sri_ ported FindBin
13:56 autrijus sri++ sri++
13:57 jabbot pugs - 4326 - Ported FindBin
13:58 sri_ jabbot: you're slow
13:58 jabbot sri_: Perhaps you would like to be slow.
13:58 Limbic_Region autrijus - of the 4 things that need to be done to get http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/cribbage_scoring.p6 working - which one in your opinion requires the least amount of work (or rather, the least amount of Haskell skills) ?
13:58 autrijus remind me -- which 4?
13:58 autrijus oh got it
13:59 autrijus commits++
13:59 SM_ax has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.7/20050420]")
13:59 Limbic_Region # Bug 1     - t/pugsbugs/return_with_trailing_stuff.t
13:59 Limbic_Region # Bug 2     - t/pugsbugs/postincrement_in_subscripts.t
13:59 autrijus yeah, got them
14:00 Limbic_Region # Feature 1 - t/operators/hyper.t (hyper dereferencing)
14:00 Limbic_Region oh
14:00 Limbic_Region sorry
14:00 * Limbic_Region is doing multiple things at once again
14:00 Limbic_Region it is sooooo nice to have tabbed browsing back
14:00 autrijus well hm.
14:00 autrijus hyper deref requires some work in src/Parser.hs
14:00 clkao autrijus++ # cpan-upload.p6
14:00 PerlJam surely last LABEL can't be too difficult.
14:00 autrijus but if you have elementary haskell utilz that's trivial
14:01 autrijus last LABEL is merely turning
14:01 autrijus FOO: { ... }
14:01 autrijus into
14:01 autrijus my sub FOO { ... }
14:01 Limbic_Region this would be my first introduction to Haskell
14:01 autrijus I think. it's probably a hack, but it probably works
14:01 PerlJam Limbic_Region: have you been exposed to FP before?
14:01 Limbic_Region no PerlJam
14:01 autrijus all four is about equally difficult
14:01 Limbic_Region great
14:01 autrijus hyper deref will make you learn about parser :)
14:02 autrijus which is considerably easier than the rest of source code
14:02 autrijus so maybe that first
14:02 * Limbic_Region guesses he will wait for a rainy day
14:03 autrijus Limbic_Region: basically we already have &infix:<.{}>
14:03 autrijus so hyper deref is just adding the >>.{} form to parser, that's all
14:03 theorbtwo .{} is infix?  Shouldn't it be postcircumfix?
14:04 autrijus good catch.
14:04 autrijus feel free to fix the Prim entry
14:04 clkao autrijus: got time to look at rw array?
14:04 autrijus clkao: no.
14:05 clkao *stunning silence*
14:07 autrijus clkao: I'm fried... ;)
14:07 autrijus <- just went back from $w0rk
14:07 autrijus and I need to 1)shower 2)sleep
14:07 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - will you have time tonight or tomorrow night (my time) to help me with a little Haskell ?
14:08 Shachaf has joined #perl6
14:09 theorbtwo Limbic, should.
14:10 theorbtwo ...I think.
14:12 Limbic_Region ok - will ping you
14:18 sproingie has joined #perl6
14:21 Limbic_Region $foo.chars will return the number of chars in $foo - is there a way (other than split) to get the actual chars themselves ?
14:21 PerlJam Limbic_Region: substr()  :-)
14:21 theorbtwo substr should work.
14:22 simcop2387 has joined #perl6
14:22 Limbic_Region how so?
14:22 Limbic_Region I guess I should read S29 huh
14:23 theorbtwo The quick answer is "just like p5".
14:23 * Limbic_Region isn't sure how he would use substr() in p5 without first getting the length of the string and repeatedly calling substr() for each position with a length of 1
14:24 sproingie so strings still aren't subscriptable?
14:24 * sproingie ARGH
14:25 theorbtwo That would feel very strange to me.
14:25 Limbic_Region PHPish IIRC
14:25 theorbtwo When you have a reference with overloaded stringification, and use a subscriping operator, does it dereference, or stringify?
14:25 Limbic_Region what I am trying to do is the equivalent of split //, $foo;
14:26 theorbtwo I think just like in p5.  Possibly chars in list context does that?
14:26 Limbic_Region I was hoping theorbtwo
14:26 PerlJam Limbic_Region: why the restriction on using split though?
14:26 Limbic_Region but say list $foo.chars still says 4
14:26 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
14:27 Limbic_Region PerlJam - not a restriction really - just trying to learn more of the language
14:27 PerlJam oh
14:27 Limbic_Region I often do that by taking a relatively simple problem and intentionally handi-capping myself
14:27 Limbic_Region my favorite way to do that is to say "no regexen"
14:27 PerlJam Limbic_Region: well, I believe that $foo.chars in a list context actually gives you the chars (or it's supposed to)
14:28 Limbic_Region oh - well if that's the case it is b0rk
14:29 Limbic_Region .chars .bytes etc replaced length right?
14:29 PerlJam right
14:32 PerlJam Hmm.  I can't find it in the AES where I got that .chars  in list context gives the chars as a list, so either I made it up or it was said on p6l or something
14:32 * Limbic_Region is still looking
14:33 sproingie subscripting a reference with overloaded stringification would simply be ambiguous
14:33 sproingie you'd pick one behavior and use it.  god knows perl doesn't normally shy away from ambiguity
14:33 lumi It's not supposed to, but it should be supposed to
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14:33 Limbic_Region PerlJam - lots of references
14:34 Limbic_Region A02, A05, A12, E05, S05, S26
14:34 * Limbic_Region is going to investigate further
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14:37 drbean 9 rules tests and 170 subtests failed for me in 6.2.6
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14:39 Limbic_Region ok - I don't see anything that says it should do it so I will ask on p6l
14:39 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
14:45 sri_ how do i define additional methods for a class at runtime?
14:47 theorbtwo sri_: method Foo:newmeth(Foo $self: ...), I think.
14:49 G2 has joined #perl6
14:52 sri_ hmm...then it's a bug in my code :/
14:52 sri_ pugs needs more verbose parse errors
14:53 sproingie hey, i used ed, '?' is error enough for real men
14:53 sri_ you're sooo 1960's :)
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14:58 sproingie 70's anyway
14:59 sproingie mainframe editors actually had decent ui.  ed was small first, functional second ... or more like third or nineteenth or so
15:00 sproingie i suppose it made more sense on teletypes
15:09 PerlJam Limbic_Region: A virtual $10 says you get warnocked  :-)
15:11 Limbic_Region PerlJam - that's perfectly alright
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15:13 Limbic_Region I will just ask again in a month or so
15:13 * Limbic_Region is persistent
15:17 Boogie has joined #perl6
15:18 * Limbic_Region likes the thought of being able to do something terribly inefficient like say "there is a letter" if any( $str.chars ) eq any( 'a'..'z', 'A'..'Z' );
15:18 Khisanth persistence is futile!
15:18 Limbic_Region Khisanth plus plus
15:19 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
15:19 Boogie join catalyst
15:20 * Boogie says oops
15:22 rafl has joined #perl6
15:22 sri_ :)
15:23 mrborisguy has joined #perl6
15:23 vcv has joined #perl6
15:23 Boogie anyway, I'm interested in joining to Catalyst. Catalyst6.
15:23 sri_ that'll take some time...
15:23 Boogie Autrijus wrote about it in his blog, but i found no info about it.
15:24 sri_ still porting prereqs
15:24 Juerd Does anyone happen to know how to reset a 3com switch?
15:24 Boogie sri_: I have not much time, but would like to help. I have a lot of ideas.
15:25 Boogie Juerd: no reset switch on it?
15:28 fireartist has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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15:28 sri_ pugs -e 'class Foo; eval "method foo (\$self:) { return \$self }"'
15:28 sri_ isn't this supposed to work?
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15:30 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
15:31 nothingmuch evening!
15:31 * sri_ pokes autrijus
15:32 * nothingmuch also pokes autrijus
15:33 Limbic_Region sri_ - autrijus mentioned needing a shower and sleep
15:33 sri_ dammit...
15:37 Khisanth hmm
15:37 Juerd Boogie: No
15:38 * Khisanth needs to figure out how to abuse []
15:38 nothingmuch Khisanth: the reduce meta operator?
15:40 Khisanth :)
15:44 Boogie sri_: your pugs code works for me. just don't escape $, and use ' for eval
15:44 sri_ i need a dynamic method name
15:44 Boogie pugs -e "class Foo; eval 'method foo ($self:) { return $self }'"
15:45 rafl has joined #perl6
15:45 Boogie you mean: pugs -e "class Foo; $mn='hey'; eval 'method '~$mn~' ($self:) { return $self }'"
15:46 sri_ good idea! :)
15:47 stevan sri_: you might be able to (eventually) do that through the meta-model
15:47 stevan but thats no use to you now :)
15:47 sri_ yea, confuse me even more! :P
15:47 stevan :)
15:48 stevan sri_: I will port the Tree::Simple::Visitor stuff for you this weekend
15:48 sri_ nice!
15:48 stevan BTW - I switched from CamelCase to perl_style for Tree
15:48 * stevan has finally seen the "light"
15:49 * sri_ hugs stevan
15:49 stevan :)
15:49 wolverian yay!
15:49 stevan sri_: you should consider putting a ext/Catalyst6 folder into pugs
15:50 stevan and at the very least, having a list of pre-reqs that need porting
15:50 Boogie guys, is there a plan of Catalyst6?
15:50 stevan I am sure people will help out :)
15:50 sri_ as soon as i have File::Find::Rule working
15:50 Enveigler1 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
15:50 Boogie yes, stevan++
15:50 stevan nice
15:50 sri_ don't think there are more prereqs :)
15:51 stevan oh, even better
15:51 sri_ well, i'll need real trait support...but autrijus promised to work on it
15:51 stevan sri_: trait or role?
15:51 sri_ trait
15:52 sri_ for actions
15:52 stevan traits are a little of fuzzy in S12, what exactly do you need
15:52 sri_ method foo is Path('/lalala/foo')
15:52 stevan as i understand them, traits are compile time roles on crack
15:53 sri_ i guess trait_auxiliary:is is what i need
15:53 stevan so are you just tagging meta-data there? or is it altering the method?
15:54 sri_ meta data
15:55 stevan what uses the meta-data? the dispatcher?
15:55 sri_ yes
15:55 * stevan starts dreaming of custom meta-level method dispatchers :)
15:55 jhorwitz anyone with apache2 here have some cycles to test mod_pugs?
15:56 sri_ hmmm...
15:57 * Boogie wonders if somebody there who porting a Class::DBI like thing?
15:58 stevan Boogie: I have had some thoughts on ORM system for Perl6, but I never liked CDBI, so it will not be similar
15:58 stevan nothingmuch and I talked them out a bit
15:58 stevan from what I know of Class::DBI, I think it could be made much nicer through Roles too
15:59 sri_ cdbi is nice imo
15:59 sri_ it could be better indeed
15:59 stevan sri_: it does the job, but its not really O/R
15:59 sri_ you like tangram? :)
15:59 stevan never used it
15:59 Boogie I don't know Class::DBI. I just like the idea. I would like to use something like Ruby on Rails, if you know it.
16:00 sri_ thats cdbi ;)
16:00 Boogie OK. So cdbi++;
16:00 stevan we have a in house system, which is starting to show it's age (going on 2 1/2 years now)
16:00 stevan the system is more Tangram/SPOPS-ish than CDBI
16:01 sproingie has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:01 Boogie My idea is to let's create an ext/Catalyst6 dir, and put there the ideas we have.
16:01 stevan with a lot of IOC in the middle to handle all the dependency relationships
16:01 sri_ Boogie: Cat6 will be quite like Cat5
16:02 Khisanth Cat5e :)
16:02 stevan Cat6.1 :)
16:02 sri_ all models and views are just addons
16:02 sri_ it doesn't matter if you use cdbi or tangram or whatever
16:02 sri_ it's just glue
16:02 Boogie So, should I start to hack on another project, that's like Rails?
16:02 stevan yup, thats why I like Catalyst so much :)
16:02 stevan sri_++
16:03 sri_ Boogie: if you like... :)
16:03 sri_ but rails was made for ruby
16:03 stevan sri_: so the plan now is to do a straight port
16:03 sri_ it's less flexible
16:03 Boogie sri_: I would like to create a thing, that will be used... ;)
16:03 sri_ stevan: i'm always open for new ideas
16:04 sri_ but it's already quite good imo
16:04 stevan sri_: I am not thinking of changing the design so much, as just perl6-ifying it more
16:05 sri_ Boogie: maybe join http://perlonrails.org *eg*
16:05 sri_ stevan: indeed
16:05 * stevan proabably doesn't actually know enough Catalyst to be saying this though
16:05 Boogie sri_: I've checked Catalyst some weeks ago, and It was too much typing for me. ;)
16:06 sri_ wait, much typing?
16:06 sri_ you kidding?
16:06 stevan Boogie: catalyst seems to be moving a Pugs speed, so a few weeks might be ancient
16:06 sri_ take a look at the upcoming perl.com article, ajax powered wiki in less than 30 lines of written code ;)
16:07 Boogie sri_: At first, it's possible I don't know it well. I've checked it after Rails, and it was my impression.
16:07 sri_ oh well, we so have to make videos too...
16:07 sri_ :)
16:07 Boogie sri_: I agree. Maybe I just didn't catch the idea enough. :)
16:09 Boogie As I can imagine, Catalyst on Perl6 will be much cleaner and shorter, than Catalyst for Perl5.
16:09 sri_ much
16:09 stevan sri_: so will you be developing Cat6 in the Pugs tree?
16:09 sri_ mhm
16:09 * Boogie likes stevan's idea.
16:10 sri_ i'd like to have a mason port too
16:10 sri_ and cdbi :)
16:11 stevan you can always use perl5 embded for now
16:12 sri_ don't think that would work so well with cdbi
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16:21 rafl has joined #perl6
16:23 gaal hullough!
16:23 stevan hey gaal :)
16:23 gaal Enveigler about?
16:23 Limbic_Region salutations
16:23 gaal heya stevan, L~R
16:25 theorbtwo Oh, stevan, fix your AUTHORS entry, please.
16:25 stevan ?
16:25 stevan whats wrong with it?
16:26 theorbtwo Oh.  Nevermind.
16:26 theorbtwo I was thinking of simon, not stevan, and that's fixed.
16:28 Limbic_Region woah - I just thought of a way of doing arbitrarily nested loops - I wonder if it is the same way tye does it in Algorithm::Loops
16:28 * Limbic_Region needs to try this in p6
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16:36 gaal heh heh heh. http://dvdrewinder.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&amp;products_id=1 DVD Rewinder.
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16:40 sri_ a Data::Dumper port would be nice too
16:41 stevan sri_: we have .perl() already
16:41 sri_ oh :)
16:42 sri_ nice
16:42 stevan ye ask and ye shall receive :P
16:44 Limbic_Region ok - I want to define a sub that has 1 required parameter (an array), and 2 optional parameters (a hash and a code ref) - what is the proper way to say that?
16:45 pasteling has joined #perl6
16:45 Limbic_Region sub foo (@array, ?%foo, ?$ref) {...} ?
16:45 stevan or foo(@array, +%hash, +$code)
16:45 Limbic_Region I thought   meant named parameter not optional?
16:45 Limbic_Region or does that equate to the same thing?
16:45 stevan that allows you to do: foo([1, 2, 3], code => sub {})
16:46 stevan named and optional IIRC
16:46 Limbic_Region and that space there was a plus that got eaten
16:46 stevan with ?$foo I think you are stuck with positional only
16:46 stevan let me check the tests, one second
16:46 Limbic_Region ahhh
16:47 Limbic_Region found it
16:47 Limbic_Region named parameters are optional unless marked is required
16:47 stevan yup
16:47 Limbic_Region so you way is best then
16:47 stevan of course ;)
16:48 stevan although come to think of it, your way should behave the same
16:48 stevan that is how much of the Test.pm subs work
16:48 Limbic_Region positional is problem
16:48 Limbic_Region not in my case
16:48 Limbic_Region but it could be
16:48 stevan I dont think it forces positional though
16:48 stevan the ? that is
16:48 stevan look in Test.pm, they all use ?$todo, and that is not postional
16:49 stevan so I was wrong there
16:49 Limbic_Region stevan - problem is what happens if you have two optional (un-named) of the same type
16:49 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:49 stevan actually + and ? look fairly interchangable
16:49 zeromode has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
16:49 Limbic_Region is HAS to be position or else there is no way of knowing which it is
16:49 stevan true
16:50 Limbic_Region so I am going with all named - 1 marked is required
16:50 stevan so using named forces people to DWTM
16:50 Limbic_Region hopefully that is supported already
16:50 stevan L~R, looks like it
16:51 stevan in t/subroutines/sub_named_parameters.t it is not TODO
16:53 Limbic_Region stevan - I don't see any "is required" in that test file?
16:53 stevan line 70
16:53 stevan sub mandatory (++$param) {}
16:54 Limbic_Region oh - I guess I should read the blurb at the top since that disagrees with A06
16:54 Limbic_Region perhaps it was changed in S06
16:54 Limbic_Region nope
16:54 Limbic_Region I think the plusplus is wrong
16:54 Limbic_Region according to the docs - that should be done with the "is required" trait
16:55 Limbic_Region oops
16:55 Limbic_Region s/wrong/not official/
16:56 Limbic_Region it does say that plusplus is an alternate that MAY be considered
16:56 Limbic_Region *shrug* - I will just use the plusplus since apparently it is what Pugs has now
17:01 Limbic_Region ok - now how do you define a list of array references - something with a semi-colon?
17:02 Boogie has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:02 Limbic_Region my @foo = (1,2,3; 4,5,6; 7,8,9);
17:02 Limbic_Region ?
17:02 theorbtwo ?eval (1,2,3;4,5,6;7,8,9)
17:02 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ";" expecting digit, fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, "," or ")"
17:03 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - hence the question (something with a semi-colon)?
17:04 theorbtwo I remember Larry redefined how to do it when he introduced the [] metaoperator.
17:07 Limbic_Region ?eval ([1..3],[4..6],[7..9])
17:07 evalbot6 ([1, 2, 3], [4, 5, 6], [7, 8, 9])
17:07 Limbic_Region that appears to be doing the right thing but I am not sure if it is supposed to
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17:08 theorbtwo That's certianly supposed to do that, but the question is if there is a better way to do it... and if we care.
17:09 Limbic_Region well, I for one care
17:09 Limbic_Region and that's what I meant - supposed to meaning supposed to be the best way
17:13 theorbtwo The mail you want is "reduce metaoperator", by Larry, 05/04/05 14:36.
17:14 theorbtwo <20050504123651.GA1094@wall.org>, if you can figure out how to search by message-id.
17:14 theorbtwo OTOH, it looks to be somewhat unimplemented.
17:15 Limbic_Region why would searching by msgid be any different then subject line or body?
17:15 Limbic_Region just c/p into the search bar
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17:49 wolverian Limbic_Region: what mail client are you using?
17:49 wolverian if I may ask :)
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17:53 geoffb allo
17:53 geoffb Warning: trying to read everything linked from the Perl 6 summary in one sitting may result in Cranial Liquefaction, a potentially debilitating disorder.
17:59 cognominal ho, that would explain the liquid dropping from my head.
18:00 wolverian you read the summaries? weakling, I read the original posts. :)
18:01 stevan HAH!,... real perl6 hackers read the Apocolypses :P
18:02 wolverian yes, but that gets boring after the first few years.
18:02 vcv has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:02 stevan : D
18:02 cognominal Apos are old news...
18:02 Limbic_Region wolverian - several of them
18:02 Juerd Literally.
18:03 Limbic_Region were you asking how I was searching for msgid?
18:03 Limbic_Region or for some other reason
18:03 * Limbic_Region now has a working implemenation of arbitrary nested loops in p6
18:03 * Limbic_Region still needs to add a few of the features from Algorithm::Loops such as onlywhen and code blocks - but so far so good
18:04 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
18:04 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:04 geoffb wolverian, I get enough mail already.  I think my mail reader would go on strike if I added the load of all perl6-* lists.
18:04 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC")
18:04 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
18:05 Limbic_Region I hate when that happens
18:05 wolverian Limbic_Region: nah, I was just curious what kind of a client you prefer.
18:06 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Arbitrarily Nested Loops in p6 - though not very p6ish I don't think" (24 lines, 669B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10665
18:06 wolverian geoffb: heh. I'm subscribed to the ubuntu-* lists as well. imagine that. :)
18:06 Limbic_Region wolverian - I use gmail, yahoo mail, outlook, mailx, pine, elm - whatever is available
18:06 wolverian Limbic_Region: ah, okay.
18:07 geoffb wolverian, you must be crazy.  Or have spent a very large block of time tuning your mail reading skills
18:07 wolverian Limbic_Region: that is very unperl6ish. I think the idea is to use coroutines for this kind of a thing, and 'for' instead of 'while'. it's all pretty much unspecced right now I think, though. :)
18:08 wolverian geoffb: I don't read all the ubuntu-* mails.
18:08 Limbic_Region wolverian - here is the trouble
18:08 Limbic_Region I think in p5
18:08 Limbic_Region when I am writing p6 I am really just translating the p5 in my head
18:08 wolverian right. that's a common problem, I think.
18:08 wolverian you need a more functional mindset
18:09 Limbic_Region well - from a p5 perspective - that is pretty freaking functional
18:09 geoffb wolverian, that's why I read the p6 summaries -- to get a clue as to which threads I care about.  Reading every last email would leave me with no coding time.  :-)
18:09 geoffb Limbic_Region, wolverian: yeah, I suspect that p5-think will be an issue for a while.  I know it will be for me . . . .
18:10 geoffb Maybe I need to follow the path someone else started on today and learn Haskell and Forth at the same time, just for brain expansion purposes
18:11 Juerd    my @pos = (0) xx (@loop.elems - 1), -1;
18:11 Juerd The former () are bad style now.
18:11 wolverian is prefix:<=> specced?
18:11 Juerd ++@loop
18:11 Juerd What's ++@loop? (in a signature)
18:12 meppl has joined #perl6
18:12 Limbic_Region Juerd - apparently an alternative to "is required"
18:12 Juerd Aha
18:12 Limbic_Region according to S06, named parameters are optional unless marked "is required"
18:12 Limbic_Region it goes on to say, alternatively we may ...
18:12 wolverian why require it to be named?
18:12 Limbic_Region but only the plusplus version is in pugs ATM
18:13 Limbic_Region wolverian - so they can come in any order
18:13 wolverian also, I'm now unsure what your code actually does, Limbic_Region
18:13 Limbic_Region and also so that it is easy to add options later
18:13 wolverian oh, arbitrary nested loops.
18:13 wolverian right.
18:13 Limbic_Region wolverian - given a list of array refs - it will loop... yeah
18:14 Limbic_Region ok Juerd - what specifically about my @pos = (0) xx (@loop.elems - 1), -1; is bad style?
18:14 Limbic_Region the parens around the 0
18:14 Limbic_Region or the ones around the substraction?
18:14 * Limbic_Region assumes the 0
18:15 Juerd Limbic_Region: The 0
18:15 Limbic_Region done - thanks
18:15 Juerd Note that this is my opinion, not necessarily that of the perl 6 community.
18:15 Limbic_Region I agree with dropping stuff that isn't required as long as it is still readable
18:15 saorge has joined #perl6
18:15 Limbic_Region in this case both are true
18:16 wolverian hrm. how does one write a method on an array that loops over its own elements, besides an explicit @self?
18:16 Limbic_Region again - issue of p5 to p6 since the parens ARE needed in p5 to DWIM
18:26 Corion has joined #perl6
18:26 Corion I saw in the backlogs that my system() test caused failures - any Win32 user can enlighten me as to what exactly was the output because it worksforme (resp. did when I commited :) )
18:27 Corion (maybe svn has problems with binary files?)
18:27 Corion (and the test still worksforme)
18:30 Enveigler1 has joined #perl6
18:30 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=462987 for anyone who is interested
18:30 * Limbic_Region has to wander off to a meeting now
18:30 meppl guten abend
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18:33 lumi Juerd.ping
18:37 Juerd pong
18:38 lumi Would it be possible for me to have a feather account?
18:38 Juerd Of course.
18:38 Juerd But only when requested by email, which you did
18:38 Enveigler1 Corion: Save me searching, is there an easy way to run individual tests?
18:40 Corion Enveigler1: pugs -Iblib6\lib -w t\builtins\system\01-*
18:41 Corion pugs -Iblib6\lib -w t\builtins\system\01-strings-with-spaces.t.disabled
18:41 Corion (to be exact)
18:41 Limbic_Region is the proper thing for ref to return on a code ref 'Sub' ?
18:42 Limbic_Region or rather, is 'Sub' the only thing ref will return for a code reference?
18:42 wolverian Code
18:43 Limbic_Region pugs -e "my $foo = sub { say 'bar'; }; say ref $foo"
18:43 Limbic_Region ?eval ref sub { say 'bar'; }
18:43 evalbot6 ::Sub
18:43 Limbic_Region ?
18:44 wolverian Sub.does(Code)
18:44 wolverian ?eval Sub.does(Code)
18:44 evalbot6 bool::true
18:44 wolverian ?eval Code.does(Sub)
18:44 evalbot6 bool::false
18:44 wolverian ?eval Bare.does(Sub)
18:44 evalbot6 bool::false
18:44 wolverian ?eval Bare.does(Code)
18:44 evalbot6 bool::true
18:44 wolverian sorry for the spam. :)
18:45 geoffb That was a short meeting, Limbic_Region . . . wish all of mine were that short
18:46 Limbic_Region well - I am trying to add in optional code ref support to the arbitrary nested loops and I am confused as to how to determine if it is the "right thing" or not
18:46 Limbic_Region geoffb - other parties were delayed
18:46 Limbic_Region likely will start in 5-10 minutes
18:47 pasteling "Enveigler" at 81.131.127.188 pasted "Sample 01-strings-with-spaces.t output" (15 lines, 540B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10667
18:47 Limbic_Region wolverian - you did give me an idea though
18:47 Limbic_Region $code(@group) if $code.does(Code);
18:48 Enveigler1 Corion: That's from the first two tests. Lots more if you want it?
18:48 Enveigler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:48 Corion Enveigler1: Hmmm. Does t\builtins\system\t e s t\showav.exe exist ?
18:49 G2 has joined #perl6
18:49 Corion Ow! Ow! Ow!
18:49 Corion I see now :(
18:49 geoffb Limbic_Region, out of curiosity, why not do your looping code recursively, since that seems to be the FP way . . . ?
18:49 Corion I forgot to add the "t e s t" directory to subversion :(
18:49 * Corion goes to add it
18:50 Enveigler1 Corion: I won;t past the other 321 cases then :)
18:50 SM_ax has joined #perl6
18:50 Corion Hmmmm. We-ird. "t e s t" supposedly is already under version control.
18:51 Corion (but it doesn't get checked in or out)
18:51 Enveigler1 Where in the tree?
18:51 Corion Maybe svn has problems with directories with spaces in their names?
18:51 Enveigler1 Could be.
18:51 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
18:53 Corion r4329 should work now ...
18:53 * Corion crosses his fingers
18:54 theorbtwo svn up just did a bunch of As on the t e s t directory.
18:54 theorbtwo Of course, this is on linux, not win32, but I doubt it makes much difference.
18:54 Enveigler1 I'll update
18:56 Enveigler1 Corion: That's fixed it.
18:56 Corion theorbtwo: Yeah - I wiped the .svn directory in "t e s t" and then added the files again, and then it seemed to work...
18:56 Corion yay :)
18:57 Corion BTW, I really wonder - Haskells system() and quoting seems to be much better/more robust than Perl5s system(LIST)
18:57 Corion (on Win32)
18:57 jabbot pugs - 4327 - Tree : adding extended tests (213 of the
18:57 jabbot pugs - 4328 - Added 't e s t' directory for system() t
18:57 jabbot pugs - 4329 - Reenabled system() test
18:59 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
18:59 Enveigler1 All 323 now pass
19:00 Khisanth Corion: as long as it doesn't require some contortions just to make it treat a single arg as a path
19:00 Khisanth it would be better :)
19:00 Corion src/Pugs/Context.hs:145:0: Warning: Defined but not used: `castOk'
19:01 Corion src/Pugs/Context.hs:211:0: Warning: Defined but not used: `prettyTypes'
19:01 Corion (on Win32 at r4329)
19:01 theorbtwo I get those too, Corion.
19:01 Corion Ah, so these warnings are cross-platform ;)
19:02 Corion BTW, I'd like if somebody wrote the ShowArgv.hs which I punted on :)
19:03 Corion ... and if we have Parrot, we should also test that Parrot sees the same command line (resp. parses it the same way)
19:04 nothingmuch anybody familiar with parsec?
19:05 wolverian I am imploding my brain trying to grok how to use coroutines to do permutations
19:08 Corion nothingmuch: Not really familiar but I think I understand parts of the concept
19:08 nothingmuch Corion: i'm doing an excercise
19:08 nothingmuch i'm forcing myself to write a forth compiler in haskell, which will eventually target parrot
19:08 nothingmuch so that I will finally learn all three
19:09 nothingmuch and documenting my progress in tutorial format
19:09 nothingmuch and I'm having some issues writing the parser, but they were just resolved, so now i have other issues
19:13 Corion nothingmuch: I think Forth people have a special word for other people that never wrote Forth yet wrote an interpreter/compiler of it :)
19:13 nothingmuch heh =)
19:13 Limbic_Region geoffb - I think in p5 and that's how I would have done it in p5
19:15 geoffb Limbic_Region, nodnod.  I had to do something similar in p5 some time ago (but not as a lazy generator; I just took all combos at once).  Tried to do it iteratively, kept dealing with edge cases, turned it into a couple recursive lines.
19:15 geoffb That said, I'm now working on your puzzle, because its fun.  :-)
19:16 wolverian what does prefix:<=> do?
19:17 Limbic_Region geoffb - I am currently adding support for the optional parameters - should be done RSN
19:17 geoffb cool
19:17 iblechbot has joined #perl6
19:18 geoffb One downside of pugs being incomplete is I can never tell if my understanding is broken or pugs doesn't support something yet
19:18 nothingmuch how do i match the "end" in parsec?
19:19 Corion Limbic_Region: I think "prefix:<=>" is the =$fh syntax
19:19 wolverian Corion: is it specifically for filehandles?
19:20 Limbic_Region Corion - ok - and this means what to me?
19:20 Corion wolverian: Judging from "&prefix:<=>", I'd say no.
19:20 Corion Limbic_Region: Dunno - depends on what context you saw it in.
19:20 wolverian Corion: without the arg list, you can't tell :)
19:20 wolverian Corion: if it is a generic op, what are its semantics exactly?
19:21 * Limbic_Region didn't ask Corion
19:22 wolverian no, I did. :)
19:22 * Limbic_Region has no idea what you are talking about
19:22 Corion Ah. I'm confused
19:22 wolverian I wonder if 'for' can take a coroutine as the first argument and iterate it without wrapping it in something
19:22 Corion wolverian: With the &prefix<=>, that should be it - because =$fh is $fh.readline()
19:23 Corion so `for =$fh { ... }` # should call $fh.readline() (or $fh.getline(), dunno)
19:23 wolverian hmm. why?
19:23 wolverian as in, how does = know that? or does it ask $fh?
19:24 jql has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
19:25 wolverian what I really want to know is an iterator spec
19:25 wolverian which I guess isn't written yet )
19:25 wolverian :)
19:26 Corion wolverian: I think that for() knows that, but I'm not sure.
19:27 wolverian hmm. maybe $fh isn't an iterator nor a coroutine. then = would make sense.
19:27 wolverian but that doesn't make sense either.
19:28 wolverian I'm just going to give up and wait for AES17, or whichever it was that these will be specced in :)
19:30 geoffb lunchtime . . .
19:30 nothingmuch wooo!
19:31 nothingmuch *Harrorth.Parser> parseTest forth ": FOO 2 4 BAR; GORCH : ding baz oi oi oi ;"
19:31 nothingmuch [NewWord "FOO" [Push 2,Push 4,Invoke "BAR"],Invoke "GORCH",NewWord "ding" [Invoke "baz",Invoke "oi",Invoke "oi",Invoke "oi"]]
19:31 * Limbic_Region found a pugsbug but isn't sure it is worth pursuing
19:31 mrborisguy has joined #perl6
19:31 vcv has joined #perl6
19:31 Limbic_Region next if $foo.does(Code); # works fine
19:32 Limbic_Region next if $foo.does(Code) && $foo.($bar); # bombs out
19:32 DrForrester has joined #perl6
19:32 Limbic_Region but only if $foo is undef
19:32 sri_ is it possible to stringify rules?
19:32 Corion I guess that $rule.perl() doesn't work ;)
19:33 sri_ for reuse in eval...
19:33 Corion sri_: Why use eval ? :)
19:33 sri_ would be a pita to write File::Find::Rule without it
19:33 Corion Without eval() `
19:34 Corion ?
19:34 sri_ it builds big strings for rules
19:34 Corion sri_: Then Perl6ify it
19:34 Corion ... instead of doing a 1-by-1 port
19:34 sri_ suggestion?
19:34 Corion "don't build strings"
19:35 sri_ what instead?
19:37 Corion sri_: Dunno - use subroutines
19:37 sri_ slow *cough*
19:37 Corion (rules won't be available everywhere currently anyway)
19:37 Corion ...
19:38 Corion "slow" when talking about interaction with the file system ...
19:38 Limbic_Region geoffb - finished
19:38 Limbic_Region I will post the two optional arguments as a reply
19:38 sri_ iterating over a stack of subs will definately slow it down
19:39 Corion I guess "slow" is better than "not working". But that's me.
19:39 sri_ isn't there some magic new perl6 construct? :)
19:40 Corion It's called "autrijus" :)
19:40 Corion sri_: First implement the slow version and then ask autrijus to make it faster ;)
19:40 sri_ it's currently not available
19:40 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
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19:42 Corion re
19:49 Juerd sri_: Rules are code, not string-like
19:49 geoffb bak
19:49 geoffb Limbic_Region, OK, I'll take a look in a bit.  In the mean time, still messing with my impl.
19:49 sri_ hmm... :/
19:50 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=463006 # when you get to it
19:51 sri_ maybe i should implement a callback based File::Find for now
19:53 Khisanth isn't File::Find alreayd callback based?
19:54 sri_ yes, but not very nice
19:54 sri_ imo
19:54 Khisanth Limbic_Region: why not loop { }?
19:55 Limbic_Region Khisanth - while ( 1 ) you mean?
19:55 Limbic_Region good idea
19:56 Khisanth hmm $code() is going take a bit of getting used to
19:58 Limbic_Region you prefer the .
19:58 Limbic_Region $code.( @foo ); # ???
19:58 Khisanth not at all
19:59 Khisanth but $code->() to $code() mapping takes a bit more effort than some of the other changes
20:01 * integral is starting to get used to it
20:01 * Limbic_Region wanders off to another meeting but hopes this challenge will get more of a response then the last one
20:01 integral OTOH using -> for pointy blocks is very handy
20:01 Limbic_Region it is way cooler code IMO anyway
20:03 wolverian my &code = { }; code "bar";
20:03 integral that is very, very cool :-)
20:04 wolverian $code is very unperl6ish, I think.
20:04 integral although shouldn't that give an arity mismatch error now?
20:04 wolverian integral: I forgot the ..., obviously :)
20:04 integral ah!
20:04 wolverian integral: anyway, that should put "bar" into $_
20:04 SamB has joined #perl6
20:04 wolverian further checking is impossible in the presence of eval
20:04 theorbtwo I'd prefer to see a lazy-list based file-find.
20:04 integral I thought blocks didn't have that as a default signature now?
20:05 wolverian integral: they certainly do in pugs, and the Synopsis (still?) says so.
20:05 theorbtwo ?eval ({}).arity
20:05 evalbot6 1
20:05 integral ah, ok
20:05 dha has joined #perl6
20:05 integral make it hard to specify a zero-arity block though
20:05 theorbtwo (The parameter is *@_, though there is presently no way to find that out.)
20:05 theorbtwo ?eval (sub (){}).arity
20:05 wolverian ?eval (-> {}).arity
20:05 evalbot6 1
20:05 evalbot6 0
20:06 wolverian argh!
20:06 theorbtwo ?eval (sub (){}).arity
20:06 evalbot6 1
20:06 wolverian I win. :)
20:06 theorbtwo Yep.
20:06 integral bug :-)
20:06 theorbtwo I agree, integral.
20:06 * dha throws confetti at wolverian
20:06 wolverian is that specced?
20:06 * wolverian eats the confetti
20:07 dha Let me know when you're all done with the esoteric stuff so I can bug you about something more mundane. :-)
20:07 wolverian mundane is just as interesting.
20:07 integral perl6 makes the advanced mundane!
20:07 wolverian true.
20:07 wolverian integral++
20:08 dha ok, then. why has my build of Pugs (on OS X) been hanging for the past hour at "/usr/bin/perl -Iinc util/version_h.pl src/Pugs/pugs_version.h" ?
20:09 integral that is interesting
20:09 integral Are you using a tarball, svn or svk?
20:09 wolverian theorbtwo: re: lazy lists. how does one generate a lazy list?
20:09 dha tarball. 6.2.6
20:09 theorbtwo The lazy {} thingy, but that's unspecced, I think.
20:10 dha I had the same problem with 6.2.5, but didn't have a chance to bother anyone else about it. :-)
20:10 integral did it say anything after that line?
20:10 G2 has joined #perl6
20:10 wolverian theorbtwo: right. so I guess I'll just wait. :)
20:10 theorbtwo Blast, I thought we figured out that problem.
20:10 dha nope. that's the last line emitted
20:10 dha For what it's worth, the cursor is on the line following.
20:11 integral do you have svk installed?
20:11 dha yep
20:11 integral ah, it could be a subtle interaction with that I suppose
20:11 integral if you kill it, and try a "svk info" in your pugs directory, does that hang?
20:12 dha lemme see...
20:12 dha mind you, if I interrupt there, it goes on. but if this follows suit from 6.2.5, it'll stall later on too
20:13 dha svk wants me to create a repository (I haven't had a chance to actually *use* it on this machine)
20:13 integral ah, that'll be the problem
20:13 dha ok, svk isnt' hanging.
20:13 dha ah. I'll try building again
20:13 integral it doesn't ask for user input?
20:14 dha uh... no
20:14 theorbtwo Yeah.  It's asking you a question where you can't see it, and waits for you to answer it.
20:14 justatheory has quit IRC ()
20:14 integral ok, the quick fix is for you to do the svk depot init thing
20:14 dha svk tells me "path /Users/dha/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.6 is not a checkout path.                                                                                                              "
20:14 dha yes, did that.
20:14 integral ok, and does your build still hang?
20:14 dha and now the build is progressing from version.h
20:15 dha so far, so good. hopefully, the later hang won't occur either.
20:15 integral ok.   This is really my fault for not writing robust code for this stuff ;-)
20:15 dha thanks
20:15 dha yes. I blame you. ;-)
20:15 dha And, while I'm asking stupid questions, is there a way to recover your password for nick registration on freenode? I've not been here for ages, and I can't remember it to save my life
20:16 integral if you set an email just ask a staff member (hostmask: *.staff.freenode)
20:16 dha frankly, this hasn't been my week.
20:16 PerlJam dha: so, naturally, it's a perfect time to start using pugs!  ;)
20:18 dha as soon as I figure out what that means, I'll do that. thanks. :-)
20:19 dha pj - what, so I can feel the previous part of my week was less frustrating by comparison? :-)
20:19 integral well pressure does appear to encourage quick bodges that work, rather than well-designed code that doesn't after months of work ;-)
20:20 dha somehow, I'm not surprised.
20:20 theorbtwo Can somebody who uses SVK do perl -le '{close STDIN; $x=`svk info`;}; print $x' for me?
20:20 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
20:20 * Limbic_Region is quite happy that his latest project didn't uncover any bugs (at least not ones he is sure are bugs)
20:22 dha ok. I'm going to go on to work on problems I actually understand for a change.
20:22 dha Thanks, integral.
20:22 dha integral++
20:22 dha has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:23 wolverian theorbtwo: done. want me to nopaste it?
20:23 theorbtwo Sure.
20:24 * nothingmuch tries to wake autrijus up
20:24 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:24 meppl has joined #perl6
20:25 wolverian The requested URL /paste was not found on this server.
20:25 * wolverian ponders
20:25 integral http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
20:25 integral changes topic to: Pugs 6.2.6 uploaded by cpan-upload.p6! | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org | paste at http://sial.org/pbot/perl6
20:25 nothingmuch anybody mind going through feather:~nothingmuch/harrorth and making sure chapter 3 isn't complete utter crap?
20:25 nothingmuch wolverian: add a slash at the end
20:26 wolverian nothingmuch: it gave me that after I sent the paste request
20:27 pasteling "wolverian" at 80.222.110.168 pasted "theorbtwo's svk thing" (10 lines, 304B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10669
20:27 nothingmuch wolverian: indeed. add a slash at the end of pbot/
20:27 nothingmuch i suspect the action is "paste"
20:27 nothingmuch and thus it becomes "sial.org/paste" instead of "sial.or/pbot/paste"
20:27 wolverian nothingmuch: ah. right.
20:28 nothingmuch i'm only guessing though, i use pbotutil.pl ;-)
20:28 nothingmuch autrijus: when you wake up, AST + Parser are done
20:29 Limbic_Region nothingmuch plusplus
20:29 Forth_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:29 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: have you dabbled in haskell yet?
20:30 Limbic_Region I was going to start this morning
20:30 Limbic_Region got scared
20:30 Limbic_Region decided to do more p6
20:30 Limbic_Region will play with Haskell tonight or tomorrow night
20:31 Limbic_Region depending on theorbtwo's availability to coach me
20:31 nothingmuch so you might be interested:
20:31 nothingmuch i'm writing a tutorial
20:31 nothingmuch except the catch is that I don't know it yet
20:31 theorbtwo Woo!
20:31 * Limbic_Region hugs nothingmuch
20:31 nothingmuch so I hope it can be more grokkable by us commoners ;-)
20:31 theorbtwo Limbic_Region: nothingmuch's haskell may well be better then mine.
20:31 nothingmuch the project backing it is compiling forth to parrot assembly with haskell
20:31 nothingmuch so that I can learn all three =)
20:31 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - in the land of the blind, the cyclops is king
20:32 Limbic_Region iow - any sight AFAIAC is what I need right now
20:32 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:32 nothingmuch http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harrorth/
20:32 theorbtwo We will likely both be up, so we can form the #teaching_limbic channel.
20:32 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC")
20:32 meppl has joined #perl6
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20:32 nothingmuch darcs get 'feather:~nothignmuch/harrorth'
20:33 * Limbic_Region really needs to figure out how to fix that
20:33 nothingmuch fix what?
20:33 Corion has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:34 geoffb The fact that CGI:IRC keeps logging in and out?
20:34 Limbic_Region I had to reinstall FF today to fix some weird bug and now the open link in new tab and this tab are next to one another
20:34 Limbic_Region geoffb - that's me clicking on the wrong thingy
20:34 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: did you get the link?
20:34 geoffb bad thingy!
20:34 Limbic_Region I am looking in the IRC log now
20:34 theorbtwo Don't you have a middle button?
20:34 Limbic_Region got it
20:35 Limbic_Region theorbtwo yes
20:35 geoffb OK, coroutines aren't terribly difficult as a general concept, but DAMN they're hard to use correctly.
20:35 SamB yes, I agree.
20:36 SamB I can't even *think about them* correctly really at all.
20:36 theorbtwo I just got into the habit of middle-clicking.
20:36 SamB they are probably not quite as confusing as multi-shot continuations in an imperative language.
20:36 * Limbic_Region thinks he will too
20:37 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - do I have to read it in kwid or is there a kwid2X thingy?
20:37 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i have no idea if there's a kwid2x or whatever, but i find it to be pretty readable
20:38 Limbic_Region ok - will look at it tonight
20:38 Limbic_Region oh shit
20:38 nothingmuch it's just your plain old wiki text, really
20:38 * Limbic_Region notes the time and heads home
20:38 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("hometime")
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20:40 nothingmuch KWID: http://www.wougnet.org/Profiles/kwid.html
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20:45 stevan nothingmuch: your kwid docs seem to make sense
20:45 stevan someone should port Parsec to perl 6 ;)
20:45 nothingmuch indeed =)
20:46 stevan it seems to just be a stack of subroutines which eat tokens
20:46 stevan or am I simplifying it
20:47 stevan s/simplifying/over-simplifying/
20:47 theorbtwo You are oversimplifying it, but you've got the basic idea, I think.
20:48 theorbtwo The problem is intelegant and elegant handling of failure.
20:48 nothingmuch that's where monads finally start making sense =)
20:48 nothingmuch and purity, too
20:48 stevan theorbtwo: elaborate please :)
20:48 stevan purity++
20:49 theorbtwo If you do 'ac' =~ /a(b|c)/, you need to have the b fail, and try c.
20:50 stevan so the subs should eat tokens, but also be able to throw them back up if something is wrong :)
20:51 theorbtwo Something like that, yeah.
20:51 stevan hmmm
20:51 nothingmuch stevan: the try thing is how it's done
20:51 nothingmuch see parsec docs
20:51 stevan nothingmuch: reading them right now
21:02 geoffb How do you get a coroutine to stop?  In other words, how do you get it from running through all its yields and just starting over again?
21:02 geoffb s/get it from/keep it from/
21:03 integral one approach is to recreate it:  sub make_coro { coro { ... } };  my $coro = make_coro;  ...run_it...; $coro = make_coro;
21:03 nothingmuch geoffb: from without the coro?
21:03 integral err, I probably mean: my &coro := make_coro;
21:04 geoffb Hmmm . . .
21:04 geoffb Going for a bit of concreteness here:
21:04 nothingmuch integral++
21:05 geoffb Let's say I have sub foo(@list) { coro { @list.map:{yield $^item} } }
21:05 integral wouldn't ???/take be the better option?
21:06 geoffb I want to run through all the items in the list, then stop giving back anything.
21:06 geoffb integral, hmmm
21:06 theorbtwo G'night, all.
21:06 theorbtwo Limbic: I'll probably be back.
21:06 integral coro { ...; yield undef while 1 }
21:06 nothingmuch theorbtwo: he left a while ago
21:06 theorbtwo I know, but he'll see the log.
21:07 nothingmuch ah
21:07 geoffb integral, yeah, I figured I was going to have to do that . . .
21:08 integral you almost want: swap &?CURRENT_SUB, sub { return undef };
21:09 geoffb integral, Actually, got an idea . . . if I combine your previous idea with always doing 'yield $^item but true' then a caller can know when to stop asking
21:09 geoffb integral, now that would be a nice toy . . . .
21:09 integral hmm, doesn't this fit an array/iterator pattern better?
21:10 integral ugh, I can't remember the think that goes with take
21:10 geoffb Trying to learn coroutines . . .
21:10 geoffb gather?
21:10 integral yep that's it
21:10 integral I think I don't like about: return $foo but true, is that you can't get back what truth $foo had before the trueness was forced on it
21:10 geoffb I'm doing the Limbic_Region method: do it the hard way to force yourself to learn something
21:11 geoffb integral, true enough.  :-/
21:11 integral hmm, I should post to p6l more =)
21:11 integral Actually what I really should be using is something like haskell's Maybe, where you add another box
21:12 integral and in haskell maybe is a monad so it can quite invisible
21:18 sri_ oh, -l is not yet implemented, that makes File::Find quite dangerous...
21:18 stevan sri_: file tests are pretty easy to do in the Haskell
21:19 stevan assuming the Haskell System.IO library implements the function
21:19 sri_ then go implement :)
21:19 sri_ i'm very bad at haskell
21:19 stevan sri_: outta tuits for the day, but you are free to do it :)(
21:19 stevan I bet I suck at haskell more ;)
21:19 sri_ no way! :)
21:20 stevan what does it do anyway?
21:20 sri_ symlinks can result in infinite loops
21:20 sri_ very easy
21:21 sri_ -l just tests for symlink
21:21 stevan hmm
21:21 stevan lemme look at the haskell docs
21:21 stevan no  promises, but I will give it a try
21:21 sri_ :)
21:31 stevan sri_: I found the Haskell function, but it is in the Posix library an so it is non-portable
21:31 stevan which means its it over my head :)
21:31 sri_ mkay...thx for trying ;)
21:31 stevan although wait a second,.. I just found something
21:32 stevan sri_: what OS are you on?
21:32 sri_ osx
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21:33 stevan src/Pugs/Compat.hs has some Posix stuff in it, ... hmm this is Corion's territory really
21:33 sri_ parent directory is on every os ..?
21:35 theorbtwo sri_: No -- it's not on VMS, or on MacOS <= 9.
21:35 stevan theorbtwo: any thoughts on this?
21:35 theorbtwo Donno what this is yet.
21:35 Aankhen`` G'night.
21:35 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Induhvidual quote: "I don't mean to take the steam out of your sails, but..." [Time wasted online: 11hrs 16mins 22secs]")
21:35 stevan adding -l support
21:36 stevan there is a System.POSIX.Files.isSymbolicLink
21:36 stevan isSymbolicLink :: FileStatus -> Bool
21:37 stevan I am thinking that adding isSymbolicLink to the Pugs.Compat export(?) list will do the trick
21:37 stevan (and of course add a failing version for Win32)
21:37 theorbtwo So do it in terms of that in the POSIX case, and make it return false always in the non-posix case?
21:38 stevan return false, or warn/fail,.. it seems the convention in Compat
21:39 stevan once it is in there, it should be fairly simple to add it to Pugs.Prim.FileTest and Pugs.Prim
21:39 stevan but as I said before
21:39 stevan my haskell sucks :)
21:40 theorbtwo stevan: The only way for it to start sucking less is for you to use it more.
21:40 stevan theorbtwo: agreed, but its a matter of tuits
21:40 stevan I have been reading algorithms though, so I can read it now
21:40 stevan just not write yet
21:41 * stevan is very much looking forward to the hackathon (aka - no $work for a week)
21:42 theorbtwo I'm very worried about the hackathon.
21:42 theorbtwo ...but largely just because I'm like that.
21:44 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:46 theorbtwo Welcome back, Limbic!
21:47 Limbic_Region thanks
21:47 Limbic_Region I see you are back too
21:47 * Limbic_Region is reading what nothingmuch has produced so far ATM
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21:52 geoffb Limbic_Region, have first coroutine version of looper function . . . just signing up for a PM account so as to reply to your node.
21:52 theorbtwo Welcome to the monestary, geoffb.
21:53 Limbic_Region geoffb - you can post anonymously
21:53 Limbic_Region but we do encourage you to sign up
21:53 Limbic_Region btw - does it run in pugs?
21:54 geoffb Limbic_Region, my AC days are over, now that I'm published.  Got tired of full on paranoia 24x7
21:54 geoffb And yes, it runs under pugs
21:54 geoffb :-)
21:54 Limbic_Region cool
21:54 Limbic_Region I have no idea why I didn't think of this solution before
21:55 Limbic_Region it is quite simple and I know I thought about it a bunch of times (though never invested serious effort)
21:56 * Limbic_Region is going to beat nothingmuch senseless if he ends up learning YAL by reading his tutorial on Haskell
21:57 * theorbtwo grins.
21:57 jabbot pugs - 4330 - Hopefully, solve the problems with the v
21:58 geoffb LOL
21:58 geoffb OK, Guess I'm off to the Writeup Formatting Tips node . . .
21:59 geoffb Ah, now THAT'S a little less borken
22:00 geoffb http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=463036
22:00 geoffb That's just the raw iterator.  
22:00 geoffb I'll work on the other params next
22:01 wolverian geoffb: now make it use 'for' syntax instead of 'while'. :)
22:01 Limbic_Region geoffb++
22:02 Limbic_Region will play with it after I am finished reading nothingmuch's tutorial and building pugs
22:02 wolverian (that wasn't criticism - I'm just overeager to know how to do that generally)
22:02 ramzi has joined #perl6
22:02 wolverian (lazily.)
22:02 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:03 Limbic_Region lazy {} is still unspecced though right?
22:04 geoffb wolverian, I'll get there . . . hell, I just got pugs running yesterday.  :-)
22:04 wolverian geoffb: nice. :)
22:04 wolverian Limbic_Region: yes, there is no official spec how to make lazy lists.
22:04 wolverian (or whatever other interface 'for' and iterators might use)
22:05 Limbic_Region I would have liked to have included some of the p6 iterators I have built recently in the iterators tutorial I wrote
22:06 Limbic_Region perhaps I will make a part 2
22:06 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - still about?
22:07 Limbic_Region actually - coroutines are still unspecced too AFAIK
22:07 Limbic_Region AES17 hasn't been written yet
22:07 theorbtwo I am.
22:08 Limbic_Region ok - mind if I /msg you
22:08 elmex has quit IRC ("gn8")
22:08 Limbic_Region I didn't get very far with nothingmuch's tutorial
22:08 Limbic_Region other than to learn that parsec looks like Parse::RecDescent at a superficial level
22:08 theorbtwo Not at all, though talking in the chan might be a better idea.
22:09 Limbic_Region you know how verbose I can be - didn't want to monopolize the main channel
22:09 theorbtwo Create a new chan, then?
22:09 geoffb Yes, but it's interesting stuff
22:09 theorbtwo I don't want you to miss out on tutoring from people who know more then me.
22:09 geoffb Appropriate to the channel
22:10 geoffb Especially since the IRC logs are so handy
22:10 theorbtwo And I don't want to miss out on more audiance.
22:10 geoffb theorbtwo: ham
22:10 geoffb :-)
22:10 theorbtwo Lazy, Hubirific.
22:10 theorbtwo Lazyness is not wanting to give the same speech more then once.
22:11 theorbtwo Hubrific is thinking that I have something to teach.
22:11 theorbtwo Obviously, I'm not very good at the second.
22:11 * theorbtwo wonders how to work in Impatience.
22:12 geoffb Having to spend time saying something more than once?
22:12 theorbtwo I already called that Lazyness, though.
22:12 Limbic_Region geoffb - I just replied to your node to point out that coroutines aren't specced yet for the benefit of others
22:13 geoffb good point
22:13 geoffb (er, that was for theorbtwo )
22:13 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - let's start then with what I want to get working
22:13 geoffb Limbic_Region, thanks
22:13 theorbtwo Whenever you're ready.
22:13 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/cribbage_scoring.p6
22:14 Limbic_Region there are 4 things (in comments) that need to be done before that code will work
22:14 Limbic_Region so what I would like to do is pick 1 (that you think you know how to do) and have you walk me through fixing it
22:14 Limbic_Region hopefully learning how to fish in the process
22:15 mikfire09 has joined #perl6
22:16 theorbtwo mikfire09: Not sure how approprate this is really going to be -- but pick up a copy of ghc (at least 6.4), and a svn checkout of pugs, while I figure out which of Limbic's four bugs to tackle.
22:17 mikfire09 It will take me a while -- my laptop is not connected at the second.
22:17 theorbtwo Oh.
22:18 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - only 2 are bugs
22:18 Limbic_Region the other 2 are unimplemented features
22:18 cjeris has quit IRC ("Read error: 69 (Excessive sex)")
22:20 theorbtwo As far as I'm concerned, unimplemented features are bugs.
22:20 Limbic_Region heh
22:20 Limbic_Region well, if I had my choice of the 4
22:20 Limbic_Region I would pick hyperdereferncing
22:21 theorbtwo Good; I think that may be the most reasonable of them -- mostly because I overheard autrijus give a plan for it.
22:21 saorge has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:21 theorbtwo Of course, I don't remember what it was.
22:21 Limbic_Region right - I asked about it earlier this morning
22:21 Limbic_Region it is in the IRC logs
22:21 saorge has joined #perl6
22:22 Limbic_Region http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2005-06-02,Thu
22:22 Limbic_Region search for "autrijus - of the 4 things that need to be done to get"
22:22 Limbic_Region that's the start of the conversation
22:22 theorbtwo autrijushyper deref will make you learn about parser :)
22:22 theorbtwo which is considerably easier than the rest of source code
22:22 theorbtwo so maybe that first 14:02
22:22 theorbtwo Limbic_Region guesses he will wait for a rainy day 14:02
22:22 theorbtwo autrijusLimbic_Region: basically we already have &infix:<.{}>
22:22 theorbtwo so hyper deref is just adding the >>.{} form to parser, that's all 14:03
22:22 theorbtwo theorbtwo.{} is infix? Shouldn't it be postcircumfix? 14:03
22:22 theorbtwo autrijusgood catch.
22:22 theorbtwo feel free to fix the Prim entry 14:04
22:23 theorbtwo We're going to do that, since autrijus suggested doing it first.
22:23 Limbic_Region ;-)
22:23 Limbic_Region ok
22:23 Limbic_Region I assume Prim.hs
22:23 theorbtwo Also, I don't know much about the parser, and this is a good excuse to learn.
22:25 mikfire09 orb -- I will be back in a bit.  I need to find food & beer
22:25 mikfire09 has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC 0.5.6 (2005/02/09)")
22:27 jabbot pugs - 4331 - Ported File::Find, first try for a new a
22:29 Limbic_Region geoffb - you got another useful reply
22:29 geoffb thx
22:29 Limbic_Region not sure if you have your settings set up to automatically /msg you when you get a reply
22:29 Limbic_Region if you don't you should
22:29 Limbic_Region it is helpful
22:29 revdiablo dang, this code geoffb posted doesn't work -- I guess my week-old pugs is out of date
22:29 revdiablo :)
22:30 Limbic_Region that was like 3 releases ago revdiablo
22:30 Limbic_Region :P
22:30 revdiablo :)
22:31 kelan_ is now known as kelan
22:31 revdiablo this build I have is about a day after 6.2.5
22:31 revdiablo building the HEAD now...
22:31 theorbtwo Uff... this stuff is harder then I thought.
22:32 Khisanth theorbtwo: autrijus makes it look so easy eh?
22:34 geoffb Limbic_Region, OK, I'll go take a look at my settings.
22:34 theorbtwo Exactly, Khisanth.
22:34 revdiablo Limbic_Region: hmm, that's not a default setting?
22:34 theorbtwo Really, I've not strayed that far out of the stuff I know how to do.
22:34 theorbtwo Somewhat sadly, no, it's not the default.
22:34 theorbtwo Perhaps I should fix that at some point.
22:35 Limbic_Region dunno revdiablo
22:35 Limbic_Region which is why I said - if its not go set it
22:35 * Limbic_Region is playing with geoffb's example now
22:36 geoffb Limbic_Region, I take it the /msg functionality assumes (as luckily is the case) that your PM name matches your freenode nick?
22:36 mugwump damn, my PM name is too long..
22:36 Limbic_Region nope
22:36 revdiablo geoffb: it sends you a PM /msg
22:36 Limbic_Region Limbic~Region at the Monastery
22:37 mugwump (for IRC)
22:37 revdiablo geoffb: at perlmonks, above the chatterbox nodelet, you will see any msgs you have received
22:37 Limbic_Region and it goes to the Monastery (which has its own messaging system)
22:37 mugwump oh, maybe it isn't.  I'm sure I'm had it truncated to "mugwumpjis" before
22:37 * mugwump shrugs
22:37 geoffb revdiablo, Ah, so should refresh the page often, I guess
22:37 theorbtwo Ah, so you /are/ that mugwump.
22:37 theorbtwo I was unsure.
22:37 revdiablo geoffb: well, I usually notice it after I have clicked on another link
22:37 mugwump :)
22:38 revdiablo geoffb: but if you want to refresh often, be my guest :)
22:39 Limbic_Region geoffb - I tend to not use "refresh"
22:39 Limbic_Region I tend to click on the link for Other Users
22:39 Limbic_Region that takes you to their homenode - so you can learn a bit about your fellow monks
22:39 Limbic_Region they often have good links for you to follow
22:39 Limbic_Region when that fails to keep my interest, I check out Newest Nodes
22:40 geoffb Ah.
22:40 geoffb And you manage to get coding done also?  ;-)
22:40 Limbic_Region when I have tabbed browsing - sure
22:41 Limbic_Region ok - so in your example you are optimizing for specific cases
22:41 Limbic_Region I got that much no problem
22:41 theorbtwo I think I'm beginning to figure this out.
22:42 Limbic_Region my &rest = NL2(loop => @loop[1..Inf]); # is giving me some problems though
22:42 Limbic_Region mind explaining?
22:42 Limbic_Region oh wait
22:42 * geoffb was about to explain, then saw light over Limbic_Region's head
22:43 Limbic_Region is the Inf a slick way of not having to figure stuff out?
22:43 revdiablo aw, the debian version number was out of date -- gotta build it again
22:43 mugwump geoffb: is that coro on PM in pugs examples anywhere?
22:43 Limbic_Region mugwump - nope
22:43 Limbic_Region I just came up with the challenge
22:43 geoffb yeah, don't have to figure out how big @loop is
22:43 Limbic_Region and geoffb just came up with the contribution
22:43 geoffb Just basically "give me every element, starting at 1"
22:43 Limbic_Region ok - not sure that's how I would have cheated
22:44 geoffb Hey now, no cheating here.  :-)
22:44 Limbic_Region as in it isn't clear from first glance
22:44 Limbic_Region mugwump - I do intend to check in 1 or more examples after more people have had a chance to reply
22:44 Limbic_Region for instance - revdiablo's sagely advice of turning the map into a for
22:45 geoffb Limbic_Region, as noted in my reply -- my current version has that.
22:45 Limbic_Region right
22:45 geoffb Hmmm, not used to thinking PM way -- probably should go back and edit it.
22:45 geoffb Or not, better to spend time getting full version done
22:45 Limbic_Region geoffb - typically you only do 1 or the other
22:46 Limbic_Region update the node saying "updated thanks to revdiablo"
22:46 Limbic_Region or post a comment agreeing/disagreeing leaving the original in tact
22:46 mugwump Limbic_Region: personally I don't buy that :).  Maybe there needs to be Array.loop in S29
22:46 geoffb Limbic_Region, makes sense
22:46 Limbic_Region don't buy what mugwump?
22:46 mugwump changing map to for
22:46 Limbic_Region ok
22:47 Limbic_Region well I was going to suggest changing Inf to @loop.end
22:47 Enveigler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:47 jabbot pugs - 4332 - change version number
22:48 Limbic_Region geoffb - I updated my reply to you accordingly - feel free to ignore the suggestion though
22:50 geoffb Limbic_Region, fair enough -- though isn't my method described in one of the SAE?
22:50 Limbic_Region I know blokhead is working on a solution to but he ran into unimplemented pugs features
22:50 Limbic_Region that's my point about p6 DWYM but that it isn't as clear (IMO) as an explicit @foo.end
22:51 geoffb ah, gotcha.
22:51 Limbic_Region should also be able to do it several other ways
22:51 Limbic_Region I am about to play with them now
22:51 geoffb heh
22:52 Limbic_Region actually - they are more obfuish
22:54 Limbic_Region geoffb - did you see the original p6 challenge I posted?
22:54 geoffb Erm, don't think so.
22:54 Limbic_Region I would love to see what you could do with that
22:54 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=458728
22:55 Limbic_Region that one is already checked in as an example
22:55 geoffb @geoffb_stack.push($url)
22:55 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/examples/cribbage_scoring.p6
22:55 geoffb nod
22:56 revdiablo mugwump: you don't think that map should be changed to for?
22:56 theorbtwo I think I got it.
22:57 theorbtwo So, we're trying to fix return.  Start by searching for "return" in src/Pugs/Prim.hs
22:57 mugwump revdiablo: sure.  that return list isn't built and discarded like in perl5.
22:57 Limbic_Region which 1 are you addressing theorbtwo?
22:57 mugwump so, it's a matter of style
22:57 Limbic_Region hyperderefing
22:57 Limbic_Region or the step that autrijus said to do first?
22:58 revdiablo mugwump: it's not built and discarded in perl5 anymore either
22:58 revdiablo mugwump: my suggestion was one about style, not efficiency :)
22:58 Limbic_Region I'm there theorbtwo
22:58 mugwump well, I don't think it's bad style, but obviously some do
22:58 theorbtwo The first one is the case where return is called with no arguments.  Skip that one, go on to the op1 case.
22:59 revdiablo mugwump: to me, it just adds some extra syntax for no benefit
22:59 mugwump it's the benefit of not having to restructure the statement to put the for at the front
22:59 Limbic_Region k - I am in the op1 section theorbtwo
22:59 mugwump Maybe a .loop:{ ... } would be nicer for that
22:59 mugwump to make it clearer
23:00 theorbtwo OK -- that just calls out to op1Return, so search for that.
23:00 revdiablo mugwump: it didn't need any restructuring. don't get me wrong, when map makes sense, I'll use it. I just don't think it makes sense here. *shrug*
23:00 Limbic_Region I'm there
23:00 theorbtwo That finds the depth, checks if it's 0, and dies if it is.
23:00 Limbic_Region right
23:01 mugwump you changed; @loop[0].map:{ yield [$^first] }; to: for @loop[0] { yield [$^first] }
23:01 Limbic_Region I can even read that ;-)
23:01 mugwump this is swapping the order of the array and the loop directive
23:01 theorbtwo Then it gets &?SUB, the perl value representing the current sub, and unwraps it.
23:02 Limbic_Region ok - I don't understand all of that - but I get the general idea
23:02 theorbtwo fromVal unwraps a perl-level thing into a haskell-level thing.
23:02 theorbtwo All perl-level values are repesented by Val.  fromVal takes the Val, and converts it into the approprate type of haskell variable.
23:02 Limbic_Region and sticks it in something called sub
23:02 revdiablo mugwump: I guess we will just disagree here :)
23:03 Limbic_Region I got that
23:03 theorbtwo (Without, in general, you having to tell it what is approprate, even though haskell is statically typed, though the magic of type inference.)
23:03 mikfire09 has joined #perl6
23:03 theorbtwo Anyway, then it calls subCont on it, to get it's continuation.
23:04 theorbtwo If it doesn't have one, then it's a normal sub; if it does then it's a continuation.
23:04 theorbtwo Perl rules say that trying to return from a continuation is a failure, so it fails.
23:04 theorbtwo If not, it is action.
23:04 Limbic_Region ok
23:04 theorbtwo ...so return ($foo) is just a fancy way of checking if we return, and making the value of the statement $foo if we can.
23:04 Limbic_Region while I understand that - I couldn't have written it
23:05 theorbtwo It doesn't actually end execution of the current sub.
23:05 Limbic_Region and that's the problem?
23:05 geoffb mugwump, revdiablo: sorry, had to take a call -- from the backscroll it sounds like @loop[0].loop:{...} would be best all around, except it doesn't work in pugs yet?
23:05 theorbtwo That's the problem.
23:05 theorbtwo I couldn't have written that either, BTW.
23:06 revdiablo geoffb: no, I still like the for loop better, using my "less syntax" rule of thumb
23:06 Limbic_Region well - I am just glad that I recognized the problem before you said "the problem is..."
23:06 mugwump geoffb: doesn't work in pugs yet?  Of course not, I just made it up ;)
23:06 Limbic_Region so do you know how you would go about fixing it
23:06 theorbtwo So, here's the question: What does exhibit the behavior we want?
23:06 revdiablo geoffb: but mugwump disagrees. so you can decide whichever way you like
23:06 geoffb mugwump, ah, gotcha
23:06 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I am not sure I am following
23:06 Limbic_Region you want an example of something that works correctly and something that breaks?
23:07 theorbtwo Somewhere else in the pugs code base, there's a primitive that does correctly end execution of the current sub.
23:07 geoffb revdiablo, for now I have the 'for' version, but I would probably like .loop:{}, as it would Do What It Says
23:07 theorbtwo That thing is die.
23:07 Limbic_Region oh - I see - copy/paste
23:07 theorbtwo Well, I think we can do a bit better then cut and paste... but only a little bit.
23:07 Limbic_Region let me see if I can find it and see if I can figure out the proper thing to copy
23:08 revdiablo geoffb: how does a for loop not do what it says? unless there is some extra semantic meaning you're attaching to for that I don't see
23:08 geoffb No, I meant as opposed to .map:{}
23:09 Limbic_Region no luck theorbtwo
23:09 Limbic_Region my best bet would be fail
23:09 Limbic_Region s/bet/guess/
23:09 revdiablo geoffb: ah, ok, I can agree with that :)
23:09 * revdiablo is not trying to disagree just for disagreement's sake, honest!
23:10 geoffb heh
23:10 * geoffb valiantly trying to figure out whether his code is buggy, or pugs is
23:10 Limbic_Region geoffb - still working on the optional support - or the other challenge?
23:10 geoffb optional support.
23:11 geoffb For some reason, the path I have chosen is throwing errors from pugs.
23:11 geoffb And now I'm invested in figuring out WHY
23:12 revdiablo geoffb: when you do, if you find a bug, make sure to create a test case for it. :)
23:12 geoffb :-)
23:13 theorbtwo op1 "die" calls fail, which does the hard part of failure.
23:14 theorbtwo Sadly, "fail" is not listed directly in the index.
23:14 theorbtwo You have to do your own sniffing about to find it.
23:14 Limbic_Region well - that's why I said it was my best guess
23:14 Limbic_Region ok - will find . -type f -exec grep -l fail {} \;
23:14 Limbic_Region there is a fail_ btw
23:15 revdiablo golf!  grep -rl fail .
23:15 revdiablo :)
23:15 theorbtwo fail_ is on the perl6 layer, though.
23:15 theorbtwo revdiablo: Assumes a GNU grep.
23:15 theorbtwo OTOH, find -exec assumes a GNU find.
23:16 revdiablo self refutation++
23:16 theorbtwo The one you want is on line 1092 of src/Pugs/AST/Internals.hs
23:16 theorbtwo Thanks, rev.
23:16 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - no it doesn't
23:16 Limbic_Region ref -exec assuming GNU find
23:19 theorbtwo Oh.
23:19 theorbtwo OK.
23:19 theorbtwo Anyway, you see the defintion of fail?
23:19 Limbic_Region fail str = do
23:19 Limbic_Region that line?
23:19 geoffb OK, here's one of the problems: 'do_something() if $code_ref and $code_ref()' doesn't safely shortcircuit; pugs dies with a casting error if $code_ref is undef.
23:19 Limbic_Region yeah
23:19 theorbtwo Yep.
23:19 Limbic_Region I found that earlier geoffb
23:19 geoffb But it works just fine if you say ' if $code_ref {do_something if $code_ref()}
23:19 Limbic_Region I didn't pugsbug it but I should have
23:19 geoffb cool, I'm not insane
23:19 Limbic_Region I think it is how the parser works
23:19 theorbtwo Anyway, the meaty line is shiftT . const . return $ VError str [pos]
23:19 Limbic_Region in any case geoffb
23:19 Limbic_Region make a simple test case
23:19 Limbic_Region right - theorbtwo
23:19 Limbic_Region only we aren't interested in an error
23:20 Limbic_Region are we?
23:20 theorbtwo Right.
23:20 theorbtwo But we are intersted in screwing with the evaluation, which is I think what shiftT does.
23:20 Limbic_Region ok - we are once again way over my head
23:21 theorbtwo So now we need to figure out how to use shiftT.  Looking it up in the index of http://pugscode.org/haddock/ gives two of them.
23:21 theorbtwo We want the one in Pugs.AST.Internals.
23:21 theorbtwo (That's from a guess, just because I've never heard of Pugs.Cont before.)
23:21 theorbtwo Yeah, we're in a bit over my head too.
23:22 Limbic_Region ok
23:22 Limbic_Region geoffb - Limbic_Region found a pugsbug but isn't sure it is worth pursuing
23:22 Limbic_Region next if $foo.does(Code); # works fine
23:23 Limbic_Region next if $foo.does(Code) && $foo.($bar); # bombs out
23:23 Limbic_Region but only if $foo is undef
23:23 theorbtwo If you look in Pugs.AST.Internals, you can find the defintion of shiftT, of which I understand the about a word.
23:23 geoffb got it
23:23 Limbic_Region I found the same bug earlier today
23:23 geoffb Great minds clearly think alike.
23:23 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - but what exactly are we wanting to do with it
23:24 theorbtwo ?eval say 'HI' if 0 and die('horribly')
23:24 evalbot6 undef
23:24 theorbtwo (Why didn't that die?)
23:24 theorbtwo We want to call it, but first we have to figure out how.
23:25 Limbic_Region oh...
23:25 Limbic_Region I was thinking you wanted to manipulate it
23:25 wolverian theorbtwo: 0 and ... shortcuts
23:26 wolverian if that's what you asked. (upon rereading backlog)
23:26 theorbtwo wolverian: It should, but isn't that the same as the code that Limbic_Region had bomb?
23:26 theorbtwo Anyway, I'm getting side-tracked.
23:27 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - no - you misread
23:27 Limbic_Region it bombs out with an undef error
23:27 Limbic_Region it should have never gotten to the undef part
23:27 Limbic_Region because it SHOULD have short circuited
23:27 Limbic_Region but didn't
23:28 theorbtwo shiftT takes a argument that's a function... so we need some function to pass it.
23:28 theorbtwo So we pass it (\_ -> action).
23:28 wolverian hmm.
23:28 wolverian say "hi" if undef.does(Code); # Can't modify constant item: VBool False
23:28 Limbic_Region back to the other bug for a second
23:28 Limbic_Region if $OnlyWhen.does(Code) { $OnlyWhen(@group) or next }
23:28 Limbic_Region that line is written that way because it won't work as
23:29 theorbtwo That is, an anonymous function that takes a single parameter, and then calls action.
23:29 Limbic_Region next if $OnlyWhen.does(Code) && ! $OnlyWhen(@group;
23:29 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I am understanding what you are saying but I haven't assimilated it
23:30 Limbic_Region I think I need to start more basic
23:30 Limbic_Region and by "won't work" - I mean it is a parse error saying it isn't defined even though it shouldn't have gotten called in the first place
23:30 theorbtwo Oh.
23:31 theorbtwo Well, with my modification, it still doesn't pass the test.
23:31 wolverian Limbic_Region: $foo.?meth; # call .meth if it exists; I assume $OnlyWhen.?(@group); would work
23:31 wolverian although that might be too ugly to live. :)
23:32 wolverian (unless () isn't a method, of course.)
23:32 Limbic_Region wolverian - that's getting around the bug
23:32 Limbic_Region that isn't fixing the bug
23:32 theorbtwo I'm going to revert out my modification, and wait until I know WTF shiftT does.
23:32 geoffb OK, 'No compatible subroutine found' is rapidly becoming my nemesis
23:32 Limbic_Region I got around the bug in a completely different way
23:32 wolverian Limbic_Region: I'm just thinking about more perl6ish ways to do this.
23:32 Limbic_Region geoffb - you know why right?
23:32 wolverian Limbic_Region: sorry.
23:32 Limbic_Region wolverian - no need to apologize
23:32 geoffb Limbic_Region, ?
23:32 Limbic_Region geoffb - signatures
23:33 geoffb Oh, yeah, that I knew.
23:33 wolverian try { $foo() } err next;
23:33 geoffb Why exactly the sigs are incompatible is what's got me confuzzled
23:33 wolverian hmm that didn't quite do the same thing as your code. :)
23:33 Limbic_Region nopaste it geoffb
23:33 geoffb Going to try fiddling for a couple minutes more, then will do.
23:33 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - sounds good to me
23:38 Limbic_Region geoffb - you are going to pugsbug the problem though right?
23:38 geoffb hold on -- daughter wants some attention atm
23:38 Limbic_Region give her all your attention then
23:38 Limbic_Region she deserves it
23:51 mrborisguy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:53 * Limbic_Region notes the time and calls it a night
23:53 Limbic_Region but hopes that geoffb will submit a test exhibiting the bug
23:53 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("TTFN all")

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