Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:03 kelan stevan: do me a favor and type some unicode characters like hypers or any of the set operators
00:03 kelan i've been battling my terminal all afternoon trying to get utf8 setup
00:03 stevan kelan: I have no idea how to :)
00:03 kelan oh heh ok:)
00:03 stevan actually, wait a second
00:04 kelan maybe i'll try copy and paste from somewhere
00:04 stevan I will copy paste from some Pugs stuff
00:04 stevan kelan:  ???
00:04 stevan hows that?
00:05 kelan hmm. three question marks
00:07 kelan «
00:07 kelan yay that worked
00:08 kelan ?eval (1,2,3) »+« (4,5,6)
00:08 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "\\" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
00:08 kelan hmm
00:08 kelan ?eval (1,2,3) »+« (4,5,6);
00:08 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "\\" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
00:08 kelan ?eval my @a = (1,2,3); @a »++; @a
00:09 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "\\" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
00:09 kelan ?eval 1+2
00:09 evalbot6 3
00:09 kelan ?eval my @a = (1,2,3); @a >>++; @a
00:09 evalbot6 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
00:09 kelan ?eval (1,2,3) >>+<< (4,5,6);
00:09 evalbot6 (5, 7, 9)
00:09 kelan it looks right to me, but maybe its sending the wrong thing
00:11 jql ?eval my @a = map { 0+$_} 1,2,3; @a >>++; @a
00:11 evalbot6 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
00:11 jql ?eval my @a = map { 0+$_} 1,2,3; @a
00:11 gaal_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:11 evalbot6 [1, 2, 3]
00:13 theorbtwo It's probably an evalbit problem.  Lots of back and forth between perl6, perl5, and perl6.
00:13 theorbtwo (no, that wasn't a thinko.)
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00:14 kelan theorbtwo: did those hyperops come across okay, then?
00:15 theorbtwo They looked OK to me.
00:15 kelan ok good
00:19 theorbtwo ?eval length "«", ord "«"
00:19 evalbot6 ***      unexpected ( or "("     expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input     at -e line 4, column 4
00:19 theorbtwo Right.  Evalbot looks broken.
00:21 * theorbtwo wonders if there's anybody about who feels like helping what is likely a stupid user error with parsec.
00:22 kelan i don't know anything about parsec, or i would
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00:34 crysflame huh. evalbot groks UTF-8?
00:34 crysflame heh! woo re: topic
00:37 theorbtwo crysflame: Looks like it doesn't, but it certianly should.
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00:47 autrijus the quotemeta() thing is broken
00:48 autrijus in evalbot
00:48 autrijus it should probably only quote a few things like " and \ and \n
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00:49 robkinyon stevan: ping
00:50 ingy hola
00:50 autrijus yo
00:51 ingy autrijus: I am ready to submit my new ingyism to pugs for review
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00:53 autrijus ingy: do so!
00:54 ingy autrijus: doing so!
00:56 * autrijus waits for "done so!"
00:56 theorbtwo AUTRIJUS!
00:56 ingy done
00:56 theorbtwo I'm having parsec woes.
00:56 ingy hi theorbtwo
00:57 theorbtwo INGY!
00:57 theorbtwo WHOEVERELSEISHERE!
00:57 * ingy does the loud people dance
00:57 theorbtwo I'm trying to get %MY:: to parse.
00:58 theorbtwo So I added in an endbit <- option "" (string "::") to Pugs.Parser.ruleVarNameString, right after names, and added a ++ endbit to the return.
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00:59 theorbtwo That gives me nothing when there's not a :: and an error when there is, which isn't what I was going for.
00:59 theorbtwo Changing the "" to "x" gives me an x on the end of things without a trailing ::, and an erro on things with one.
00:59 theorbtwo Adding a try in like the line above doesn't help.
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01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | Test-Less comes to Pugs
01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | Test::Less helps speed up development testing by allowing people to categorize
01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | tests with various keywords, and then prove subsets of those tests.
01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | It keeps all its info in t/Test-Less/index.txt. You don't have to use it if
01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | you don't want to. It is an author-side tool, so support does not need to be
01:02 svnbot6 r4416, ingy++ | distributed. But the index should be distributed...
01:02 ingy ouch. grrr
01:02 autrijus theorbtwo: so, well, er.
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01:03 autrijus change "sepBy1" to "sepEndBy1" is the answer to all problems.
01:03 autrijus because it means it can be separated by, as well as ended by, ::.
01:03 theorbtwo That makes the end bit optional, and tells me if it's there?
01:03 theorbtwo The problem is that %MY and %MY:: are distinct hashes, AFAIK.
01:04 autrijus true.
01:04 autrijus ok then. change many1 wordAny
01:04 autrijus to many wordAny
01:04 autrijus will fix that.
01:04 clkao autrijus: hola.
01:04 ingy clkao: hola
01:04 clkao hi ingy
01:05 autrijus (then you'd not need sepEndBy1; sepBy1 would do)
01:05 autrijus yo clkao.
01:05 clkao autrijus: throw random hackathon productivity tool thoughts at me
01:05 clkao svl is very cool
01:05 autrijus clkao: telepathy matrix
01:05 autrijus biofeedback on commits
01:05 ingy clkao: are you going to Toronto?
01:06 clkao bah, something that simple software can solve
01:06 clkao ingy: no
01:06 theorbtwo clkao: lots of mics, live transcription to #perl6.
01:06 theorbtwo Speech synth of lines on #perl6?
01:06 autrijus speech reco and synth
01:06 theorbtwo Hm, no connection, so those are out.
01:06 autrijus there is connection
01:06 theorbtwo Oh.  I thought it was "steal the nebihor's phone at night".
01:07 autrijus s/phone/adsl/
01:07 autrijus not sure about the 'at night' bit
01:07 clkao so, svl will allow you the publish your local repository for people around to mirror / branch from
01:08 autrijus john also mentioned possible cell phone based bandwidth
01:08 clkao so you both will be able to commit very fast
01:08 clkao and merge from one another
01:09 theorbtwo Oh, sounds much better then what I was thinking, then.
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01:18 theorbtwo Hm, that works, and feels somewhat clener.
01:18 theorbtwo However, it now thinks "%" (in term position, of course) is a varable name.
01:23 theorbtwo I'm going to call that "OK", at least for now.
01:24 autrijus er
01:24 autrijus when (null names) $ fail ""
01:26 Ninthwave has left "Leaving"
01:26 theorbtwo No effect.
01:27 autrijus case names of
01:27 autrijus    [""] -> fail ""
01:28 autrijus    _ -> return $ (sigil:twigil) ++ ...
01:28 theorbtwo OK
01:28 autrijus btw, during hw2005 writing I noticed that the envStash is used to recalculate operator table
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01:28 theorbtwo Ah, I see the difference.
01:29 autrijus for each OP
01:29 autrijus I think a new RuleState record to cache the op table will work much better.
01:29 autrijus and speed up parsing
01:29 autrijus but I need to finish the paper today as the first priority :-/
01:30 theorbtwo When's the deadline on it?
01:30 autrijus 10th
01:30 theorbtwo That'd be good; there's quite noticable delays.
01:30 autrijus but realistically I won't get any time when I'm in Vienna
01:30 theorbtwo Right.
01:30 theorbtwo You can write on the plane, but that's cutting it rather close.
01:30 autrijus so it needs to be today.
01:30 autrijus no
01:30 autrijus the plane time is reserved for the talk!
01:31 autrijus two talks, in fact.
01:31 meppl gute nacht
01:31 theorbtwo Ah.
01:31 theorbtwo G'night, meppl.
01:31 meppl ;)
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02:33 ingy autrijus: ping
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03:30 autrijus ingy: pong
03:30 autrijus nothingmuch: http://autrijus.org/tmp/readerT-spoiler2.txt
03:30 autrijus Eval is made completely polymorphic; with that definition we're ready to:
03:31 vcv-- has joined #perl6
03:31 autrijus * embed Harrorth into Pugs with zero lines to change in harrorth and only two short instances to write
03:31 autrijus * change Harrorth into a compiler targetting Parrot without touching Eval.hs
03:31 autrijus (and reuse all the code in eval.hs)
03:36 crysflame neat
03:38 * autrijus praises merciless abstraction
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03:43 obra Harrorth?
03:45 autrijus obra: nothingmuch's forth implementation -- he chronicled all the details of how he learned haskell by coding this from scratch
03:45 autrijus fascinating read. the repo is at http://perlcabal.org/~nothingmuch/harrorth
03:46 autrijus check the doc/ for journal
03:48 obra ah. cool.
03:48 ingy autrijus: I just wanted to show that you can do this
03:48 ingy test-less -prove -v failing
03:49 ingy ...
03:49 ingy Failed 9/9 test scripts, 0.00% okay. 45/82 subtests failed, 45.12% okay.
03:49 ingy All the current (as of yesterday) tests that are failing
03:49 ingy If you make a test pass...
03:50 ingy test-less -untag failing t/oo/destruction.t
03:50 gaal hey autrijus, i was having some problems figuring out signal hadnlers the other night.
03:50 autrijus ingy: granularity is at testfile level?
03:50 autrijus ingy: I wonder how it plays with our current unit level markers
03:50 autrijus ingy: but very cool
03:51 ingy read the doc
03:51 ingy but...
03:51 gaal in System.Posix.Signals, installHandler :: Signal -> Handler -> Maybe SignalSet -> IO Handler
03:51 autrijus gaal: win32 has S.P.Sig?
03:51 gaal what the hell is SignalSet for? :)
03:51 ingy you can mark any test file with any keyword
03:51 gaal no, it doesn't...
03:51 ingy so yes, it is at the file level
03:51 gaal i also have (slowish)  linux boxen to test on.
03:52 ingy hopefully people will categorize the tests and commit the index.txt changes
03:52 autrijus gaal: http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/glibc/libc_506.html
03:52 autrijus ingy: I'd like to derive index.txt from :todo markers.
03:52 ingy the nice thing is that it is orthoganal to other testing mechanisms
03:52 ingy autrijus: please
03:53 autrijus so I can run all bugs, all features
03:53 ingy there is no limit on categorization
03:53 autrijus or all unspecceds
03:53 autrijus wouldn't that be nice.
03:53 gaal autrijus, thanks (i was thinking it was a haskell thing)
03:53 autrijus gaal: System.* are very thin disguses of FFI wrappers
03:53 gaal why are some of the builtin SSs functions though?
03:54 autrijus disguises, even
03:54 gaal oh, because so are the c versions. hmmm!
03:54 autrijus in fact, most of times there's no disguises.
03:54 ingy autrijus: grep -r some_pattern t | test-less -tag some-tag -
03:54 ingy :)
03:54 gaal okay, cool. if i have time i'll be adding %*SIG later on then. (only to unix)
03:55 autrijus gaal++
03:55 ingy autrijus: the index entries are one per line so that conflicts should resolve easy with svn
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03:55 gaal couple of questions: how can i call into Prelude from Haskell?
03:56 gaal and: is there a way to run something in the context of the main thread, that sees the call stack of every worker thread?
03:56 ingy er
03:56 ingy autrijus: grep -lr some_pattern t | test-less -tag some-tag -
03:57 ingy but ykwim
03:57 autrijus gaal: evalExp (App (Var "&File::open") (Just (Val $ VStr "file.txt")) []
03:57 gaal so cool! thanks.
03:57 autrijus or, if you want to be very lazy!
03:57 autrijus op1 "eval" (VStr "File::open('file.txt')")
03:57 autrijus ;)
03:57 gaal :)
03:58 autrijus but then you get no compile time typechecks.
03:58 autrijus gaal: yes you can do that by using either TChan or thread signaling
03:58 ingy autrijus: also thanks to you I have filters for Test::Chunks like eval_stdout and eval_stderr (which open big testing doors to me)
03:58 autrijus gaal: but you need to be more specific to what kind of stack and what kind of inspection you want
03:59 gaal autrijus, look eg at the box here: http://www.unixville.com/~moazam/stories/2004/05/18/debuggingHangsInTheJvm.html
03:59 ingy at YAPC I'd like some help porting Test::Chunks to 6
03:59 gaal java responds to SIGQUIT and prints stacktrace for all threads
03:59 gaal a nice feature to steal
04:00 autrijus gaal: oh. trivial
04:00 autrijus gaal: sending signal to each working thread; the runloop intercepts it and dumps the Env (escalating up envCaller)
04:00 gaal trivial to write something over caller, *if* i know how to iterate over threads.
04:01 autrijus gaal: you can factor our Prim line 447
04:01 autrijus gaal: and store it into a global @*CHILD_THREADS
04:01 autrijus or something like that
04:03 gaal okay, thanks!
04:04 autrijus gaal++
04:04 gaal i think i'll go rowing now, though. see you later!
04:04 autrijus see ya!
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04:47 chromatic Howdy.
04:47 autrijus greetings chromatic.
04:47 chromatic autrijus, I had a thought.
04:47 autrijus yes?
04:48 autrijus (I'm just about to go offline to hack hw2005, but I'd like to read your thought first :))
04:48 chromatic Is the attribute-binding code we wrote yesterday consuming everything in bound before processing non-attribute default values in applyThunk
04:48 chromatic ?
04:48 autrijus you know what, you're right
04:49 autrijus it passes the "bound" unaltered to applyThunk
04:49 autrijus method foo ($.z) {}
04:49 autrijus will create a _lexical_ binding to "$.z"
04:49 chromatic Options then may be to 1) copy bound 2) some sort or grep in the list comprehension
04:49 autrijus chromatic: the grep is implicit in <-
04:50 autrijus and in , (twigil ==) `any` ".:"
04:50 chromatic Right, with the condition in the comprehension.
04:50 autrijus so only those will be processed
04:50 autrijus but I worry about passing bound thru
04:50 autrijus a lexical binding of $.z sounds strange.
04:51 autrijus maybe we should delete the attribute args.
04:51 chromatic Keeping the binding of attributes in applyExp seems right to me.
04:51 autrijus i.e. use "partition"
04:51 autrijus in applyExp
04:51 chromatic Oh, I see what you mean.
04:51 autrijus so we don't introduce a garbage
04:51 autrijus "my $.z"
04:51 autrijus symbol in the lexical scope
04:51 chromatic <- partition ___ bound something something?
04:52 autrijus (attrib, normal) <- partition isAttrib bound
04:52 autrijus er no
04:52 autrijus let (attrib, normal) = partition isAttrib bound
04:52 autrijus since partition is pure
04:52 chromatic I think I know where and how; I'll take a shot now.
04:52 autrijus isAttrib ApplyArg{ argName = (_:':':_) } True
04:52 autrijus isAttrib ApplyArg{ argName = (_:'.':_) } True
04:52 autrijus isAttrib _ = False
04:53 autrijus er, change the "True" above to "= True"
04:53 chromatic Right.
04:53 autrijus that should be all there is.
04:53 autrijus cool. I'll go offline to write paper, then.
04:53 autrijus bbiab.
04:53 autrijus chromatic++ # rapidly accumulating haskell-fu
04:53 chromatic It's experience I lack.
04:54 autrijus It's for experience we hack.
04:54 * autrijus waves &
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05:12 chromatic Ahh, I see the problem.
05:12 chromatic We're approaching this backwardsly.
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05:12 chromatic We shouldn't be checking the passed-in arguments for attribute twigils (which works, if you say Foo.new( 'bar'=> 10 )).
05:13 chromatic We should be checking the *code's signature* for twigils and pulling out arguments based on that.
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05:13 crysflame done
05:18 chromatic autrijus, catch the previous couple of lines in scrollback when you have the chance. :)
05:18 crysflame chromatic!
05:18 * crysflame bows.
05:18 nothingmuch good morning everyone
05:18 chromatic crysflame!
05:20 chromatic Sorry, that's all I have at this hour.
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05:39 autrijus chromatic: hm? the arguments in ApplyArg _are_ the signatures
05:40 chromatic Are they?
05:40 autrijus I think so.
05:40 autrijus    { argName       :: String -- ^ Name of the param that this arg is for
05:40 autrijus    , argValue      :: Val    -- ^ Actual argument value, which may still be
05:40 chromatic I don't see anything referring to subParams, which is what I expect at the moment.
05:40 autrijus the argName is directly copied from subParams.
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05:41 chromatic Does it still have the sigil in subParams?
05:41 chromatic Sorry, twigil.
05:41 autrijus it represents a binding
05:41 autrijus I think so.
05:41 gaal oh, btw, that reminds me if anyone wants to spec caller() a little bit better, currently it has a "params" member that's just a hacky show VStr subParams
05:41 autrijus you can trace() for it.
05:41 autrijus oh btw. I hacked in the op parser table cache.
05:41 autrijus about to commit. to wit:
05:41 autrijus $ time ./pugs.old -c examples/games/wizard.p6
05:41 autrijus real    0m4.690s
05:41 gaal ooh, that should greatly speed things up!
05:41 autrijus $ time ./pugs -c examples/games/wizard.p6
05:42 autrijus real    0m2.292s
05:42 * autrijus bows
05:42 gaal woot!
05:42 chromatic Nice.
05:42 chromatic autrijus, when the argument comes in from the caller, it won't have a twigil.
05:42 chromatic When I add the twigil, the code works.
05:43 autrijus chromatic: you mean the name will just be "foo" ?
05:43 gaal i thought the days of 100% speedups were gone ;-)
05:43 autrijus gaal: you'd be surprised.
05:43 chromatic Yep, some_sub( foo => 10 );
05:43 gaal aiming for 200% speedups now? :))
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05:44 autrijus chromatic: maybe I'm dense. but
05:44 autrijus some_sub(10);
05:44 autrijus will yield an ApplyArg that pairs the first param name
05:44 autrijus say "$foo"
05:44 autrijus with 10
05:44 gaal real -0m2.292s
05:44 gaal $ time ./pugs.fast -c examples/games/wizard.p6
05:44 autrijus that is the only way we can introduce a lexical binding
05:44 autrijus under the "$foo" name
05:44 autrijus so I'm surprised that you say the applyArg has no twigil.
05:44 chromatic some_method (?$.z = 10 );
05:45 autrijus maybe we lost the twigil some time.
05:45 chromatic $obj.some_method( z => 20 );
05:45 autrijus wait. I know why.
05:45 gaal $work &
05:46 autrijus chromatic: Bin.hs
05:46 autrijus Bind.hs
05:46 autrijus line 41
05:46 autrijus has a blind "tail".
05:46 autrijus so $.z would expect a ".z" as name
05:46 autrijus not "z".
05:46 chromatic Exactly.
05:46 autrijus chromatic: there may be other such assumption in Bind.hs as well.
05:47 chromatic What's the easiest way to strip off the first to heads?
05:47 autrijus the first to heads?
05:47 chromatic two
05:48 autrijus dropWhile (not isAlpha)
05:48 autrijus dropWhile (not isAlphaNum)
05:48 autrijus dropWhile isPunct
05:48 autrijus or something like that
05:48 autrijus if you know you want to drop 2
05:48 autrijus then
05:48 autrijus drop 2
05:48 autrijus ;)
05:48 chromatic In place of tail... trying.
05:48 autrijus drop :: Int -> [a] -> [a]
05:48 autrijus dropWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
05:49 chromatic dropWhile *almost* needs a body!
05:50 autrijus hm?
05:50 svnbot6 r4417, autrijus++ | * Speed up parsing for 2x by caching the dynamically-constructed
05:50 svnbot6 r4417, autrijus++ |   operator precedence tables, instead of relying on envStash to
05:50 svnbot6 r4417, autrijus++ |   rebuild them in each token.
05:50 svnbot6 r4417, autrijus++ |   <gaal> i thought the days of 100% speedups were gone ;-)
05:50 chromatic I'm trying to write this off of the top of my head.
05:52 autrijus dropWhile f (x:xs) | f x = xs; dropWhile _ xs = xs
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05:52 chromatic Yep, pretty close to what I had.
05:52 * autrijus praises recursion
05:53 chromatic Hm, there's a dropWhile in Prelude already.
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05:56 chromatic autrijus, replacing tail with (dropWhile isPunctuation) didn't do it.
05:58 autrijus chromatic: time for your to learn trace() calls?
05:58 chromatic Sounds painful.
05:58 chromatic Can't we reason this out a bit first?
05:58 autrijus nah. it's actually easy :)
05:58 autrijus trace :: String -> a -> a
05:58 autrijus show :: (Show a) => a -> String
05:58 autrijus so whenever you want to trace something
05:58 chromatic Does the (name ==) happen before or after the dropWhile?
05:59 autrijus say "x y z"
05:59 autrijus you can simply slap (trace (show foo)) in front of it
05:59 autrijus trace (show foo) x y z
05:59 chromatic ah, easy.
05:59 autrijus simple as pie :)
06:00 autrijus (name ==) occurs after dropwhile
06:01 chromatic Won't that cause problems?
06:01 autrijus why would it?
06:01 autrijus find ((name ==) . tail . paramName) prms
06:01 chromatic dropWhile takes off two characters, in the case of an attribute.
06:01 autrijus find ((name ==) . (dropWhile isPunctuation) . paramName) prms
06:01 autrijus this means, in perl6
06:02 svnbot6 r4418, autrijus++ | * Revise hw2005 to agree with the now-optimised reality.
06:02 autrijus for @prms -> $prm {
06:02 autrijus    if ($name eq $prm.paramName.dropWhile(&isPunctuation))
06:02 autrijus        { return $prm }
06:02 autrijus }
06:03 chromatic Where does name come from?
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06:05 autrijus it's the name part of the pair
06:05 autrijus returned by unPair
06:06 autrijus unPair unpacks Exp into (String, Exp)
06:06 autrijus the String part is the name.
06:06 autrijus this is occuring inside a foldr.
06:06 autrijus it's an accumulating fold
06:06 autrijus see the haddock of bindNames for explanation.
06:06 chromatic Signature or parameter?
06:06 autrijus name is parameter like "z"
06:07 autrijus paramName is "$.z".
06:07 autrijus $obj.foo(z => 2)
06:07 chromatic Okay, so paramName should ignore any twigil when it does the matching.
06:07 autrijus right.
06:07 autrijus but I really, really need to run :)
06:07 autrijus may the trace be with you...
06:08 chromatic Thanks!
06:08 autrijus thanks too :)
06:08 autrijus chromatic++ # &
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07:55 svnbot6 r4419, autrijus++ | * hw2005.txt - leading paragraph for experimental features and
07:55 svnbot6 r4419, autrijus++ |   embedded languages.
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08:50 Nattfodd Is there a parrot channel somewhere or am I already in the right place ?
08:51 cognominal Nattfodd: the #parrot channel is on the irc.perl.org server
08:52 cognominal ... not on the current freenode server
08:53 * Nattfodd didn't know there was a irc.perl.org server...
08:53 Nattfodd thanks
08:54 cognominal this perl6 channel is also an attempt to break out of this incestuous world :)
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09:04 pasteling "chromatic" at 63.105.17.30 pasted "Fix for *some* parameter bindings, but still not quite right" (27 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10771
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09:19 * autrijus notes we are 3 people away from 100 committers.
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09:55 svnbot6 r4420, autrijus++ | * Leading paragraph on compilation and acknowledgements.
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