Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-09

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 Limbic_Region in any account - she isn't finished mowing the lawn yet - so it looks like I get to keep "playing"
00:01 tcliou has joined #perl6
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00:01 Limbic_Region and yes - she is the one that does the yard work, takes out the trash, etc (100% maintenance of the house)
00:01 batdog is now known as batdog|gone
00:02 theorbtwo Yeah, I'm horrible.
00:03 theorbtwo Jess works /and/ maintains the place.
00:03 theorbtwo (Mostly.)
00:06 Limbic_Region I suspect that we will have hords of lamdaheads after hw2005
00:07 Limbic_Region I don't understand any of the haskell code, but I can fully comprehend the impressiveness in the text that follows
00:09 geoffb It's mildly amazing that he has said so much, and yet has so much left to write
00:09 Limbic_Region well - he is in a bit of a catch-22
00:10 Limbic_Region the speed of pugs development necessitates rewriting while writing
00:10 crysflame has joined #perl6
00:11 geoffb Any xchat users here?
00:11 kelan irssi for life!
00:12 * crysflame has defeated irssi for the first time
00:12 kelan beat it into submission?
00:12 crysflame persuaded it to do as i request
00:12 crysflame it's /save didn't put chatnet = ""; on the servers
00:13 theorbtwo chatnet?
00:13 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
00:13 crysflame code word for "the object that has my network-specific nickname"
00:15 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
00:16 theorbtwo Any lambdaheads around?
00:16 theorbtwo instance Value [Word8] where fromval = ... is kicking my ass.
00:16 Limbic_Region geoffb - in reading it, it looks like the places that need to still be written are there as stubs
00:16 theorbtwo I've got all the others converted to fromVal from doCast, but I can't figure out [Word8], mostly because I can't figure out how to get the individual bits out.
00:17 geoffb Limbic_Region, nodnod . . . that's how I knew how much was left to write (approx.)
00:17 ninereasons geoffb, I'm using xchat, but I don't really know what I'm doing :-)
00:18 geoffb ninereasons, heh
00:19 * theorbtwo is using irssi, but doesn't really know what he's doing either.
00:21 kelan yeah, i use irssi but i mostly just type in stuff and it sends them
00:21 crysflame has quit IRC ("& migrating to raid1")
00:21 geoffb kelan, I used irssi once or twice, and that's about the level I was at.  discoverable--
00:22 kelan i don't have anything complicated i want it to do, so it works out
00:23 kelan gaim can do irc. i actually liked the interface quite a bit, but i *hated* not being able to just hit the up arrow to get the last line i'd typed
00:23 * geoffb really hates undiscoverable interfaces with poor docs (or at least they were at the time)
00:23 theorbtwo kelan: control-up.
00:23 kelan oh
00:23 theorbtwo discoverable++ discoverable++
00:23 kelan but!
00:24 theorbtwo Yeah, undocumented interfaces suck.
00:24 kelan when you tab-complete a nick, it doesn't put a colon at the end
00:24 theorbtwo I discovered that by accident.
00:24 theorbtwo I prefer it not putting anything after it, because sometimes I want a comma, sometimes a colon, sometimes a space, sometimes a period...
00:25 kelan i mostly just want a colon if the nick is the first word or a space if not, which is what irssi does
00:25 theorbtwo Hm, so it does.
00:25 theorbtwo I mostly want a comma.
00:25 theorbtwo If I'm going to use the direct address, I'm going to use it correctly.  ;)
00:25 kelan i think you can change it. but don't ask me how:)
00:25 awwaiid use the source, luke
00:26 awwaiid er
00:26 kelan or ask in #debian!
00:26 awwaiid hah
00:26 kelan thats what i usually do for linux questions
00:26 kelan i do actually use debian, so i feel justified
00:27 geoffb kelan, asking in #debian is a true roll of the dice.
00:27 theorbtwo awwaiid!
00:28 theorbtwo #debian has been pretty crazy the last few days, for rather obvious reasons.
00:28 geoffb I rarely get a good answer from there, but it may be just the type of questions I ask.  The most useful responses I get are often "um, try this other channel"
00:28 kelan apparently the answer is /set completion_char
00:28 geoffb theorbtwo, I believe it!
00:28 kelan theorbtwo, test
00:28 kelan it works!
00:31 theorbtwo Hmmpf, setting it to "" just results in... odd, it changes it per-network... anyway, in theorbtwo"", which was not the effect I was going for.
00:31 geoffb Why does pugs in interactive shell mode fail on things that work when it is run on a file instead?
00:32 sproingie has joined #perl6
00:32 kelan geoffb: its more fun that way
00:33 geoffb I know that interactive mode not only runs the code, but also displays the return value -- that's not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about erroring on code that runs correctly in non-interactive mode
00:33 * geoffb rolls his eyes at kelan
00:33 theorbtwo geoffb"", can I get an example.
00:34 geoffb Something deep must be different between them.
00:34 kelan theorbtwo: you can set it like this: `/set completion_char  ` (note two spaces after) and it will set it to space
00:34 kelan but then you get this `nick  ` on completion
00:34 geoffb theorbtwo, give me a sec to minimize the test case
00:34 theorbtwo kelan, I don't want a space, generally... ah, well, /set completion_char , is closer to what I want, at least.
00:35 Limbic_Region ok - lawn has been mowed
00:35 Limbic_Region guess it is time for me to go
00:35 Limbic_Region TTFN all
00:35 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
00:35 geoffb theorbtwo:
00:35 geoffb #!/usr/bin/pugs
00:35 geoffb use File::Basename--perl5;
00:35 geoffb our &basename := File::Basename.can('basename');
00:35 geoffb say basename('/this/is/a.test');
00:36 theorbtwo geoffb, I can't run that example at all, as perl5 embedding is broken for me.
00:36 geoffb It prints a.test when run as a file; pasted into pugs interactive mode, it errors, twice
00:36 theorbtwo Blasted include files.
00:36 geoffb theorbtwo, BLEAH
00:37 theorbtwo :r
00:37 theorbtwo Whoops.
00:37 geoffb Anyone else have p5 embedding working?
00:38 theorbtwo I should get a feather account.
00:38 geoffb theorbtwo, definitely
00:38 geoffb Juerd, is feather's pugs built with embedding?
00:40 geoffb right, middle of the night in Europe, forgot
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00:47 theorbtwo 2:50 AM.
00:47 theorbtwo I should probably get to bed soon.
00:47 theorbtwo My work is so close to the point where I can convivebly check it in without breaking the entire world, though.
00:48 geoffb has joined #perl6
00:48 geoffb Grrrr, Alt-4 != Alt-F4
00:49 theorbtwo .oO(Windows users.)
00:49 geoffb theorbtwo, what are you working on?
00:49 geoffb theorbtwo, nope.  Gnome defaults.
00:49 theorbtwo Getting rid of doCast in favor of fromVal.
00:50 geoffb theorbtwo, . . . which would gain us locality for cast failures?
00:53 theorbtwo Yep.
00:53 geoffb THANK YOU
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00:59 meppl gute nacht - good night
00:59 theorbtwo G'night, meppl.
01:00 theorbtwo You're up quite late.
01:00 meppl ;)
01:00 theorbtwo (Assuming you are in germany.)
01:00 theorbtwo Allo, Luke.
01:00 luqui hello
01:00 meppl i am
01:00 meppl *zZzZ
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01:16 macGuy what is the proper way to end a subroutine in a foreach loop
01:17 luqui what do you mean?
01:17 vcv- return; ?
01:17 macGuy ok
01:17 macGuy im in a foreach loop and i dont want it to continue if ive already done all that i need to do
01:17 macGuy so i want it to just break out
01:17 luqui yeah, you can return out of the sub
01:18 luqui or you can 'last' out of the loop
01:18 macGuy thanks
01:18 macGuy im going to use last
01:24 theorbtw1 last exits the for loop, return exits the subroutine.
01:24 theorbtw1 If the for loop is the last thing in the sub, then they are equiv, but in the general case, they mean quite different things.
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01:33 geoffb macGuy, 'next if condition;' and 'last if condition;' are very valuable idioms . . . worth using often, because they are so strongly self-documenting
01:33 geoffb hmmm, I wonder if pugs has working labels . . . ?
01:35 smoofra has joined #perl6
01:36 geoffb ?eval my @foo = <1 2 3>; my @bar = <a b c>; my $foo = '4c'; OUTER: for @foo -> $outer { for @bar -> $inner { $foo = $outer ~ $inner; last OUTER if $outer eq '2' } } $foo;
01:36 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "O" expecting ";", statements or end of input reserved word or Only one invocant allowed
01:36 Chewie[] !seen Aankhen``
01:36 geoffb seen Aankhen``
01:37 jabbot geoffb: Aankhen`` was seen 5 hours 2 minutes 30 seconds ago
01:37 geoffb Hmmm, judging by the evalbot6 output, I'd guess not . . .
01:38 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
01:42 theorbtwo I think it has labels, but only for goto.
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01:43 theorbtwo ?eval my $x; goto FOO; $x='a'; FOO: $x~='b'; $x;
01:43 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "F" expecting ";", statements or end of input Only one invocant allowed
01:43 theorbtwo ?eval my $x; goto 'FOO'; $x='a'; FOO: $x~='b'; $x;
01:43 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "F" expecting ";", statements or end of input Only one invocant allowed
01:43 theorbtwo Or not.
01:45 QtPlatypus I know that goto isn't implemented.  And I expect it to be very low on piroties.
01:45 Shachaf has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
01:46 kelan ?eval chars( "»" );
01:46 evalbot6 ***      unexpected ( or "("     expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input     at -e line 4, column 4
01:48 theorbtwo ?eval "»".chars
01:48 evalbot6 ***      unexpected ( or "("     expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input     at -e line 4, column 4
01:49 theorbtwo I suspect somewhere in the p6->p5->p6 cycle, there are encoding issues.
01:50 kelan why is it going through p5?
01:51 theorbtwo I'm not quite clear on that myself.
01:51 theorbtwo Something about getting the safe mode, and maintaining persistance at the same time.
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03:20 pasteling "qtplatypus" at 202.7.69.25 pasted "This makes makes my copy of pugs die with a bus error. What about you?" (11 lines, 223B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10867
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03:23 QtPlatypus Can someone look at that code and see if it causes your copy of pugs to die.
03:23 QtPlatypus Hi tall_man
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03:58 QtPlatypus batdog: Can you test my code and see if it segfaults your pugs?
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04:32 Khisanth QtPlatypus: do you have the latest pugs?
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04:32 Khisanth QtPlatypus: hmm that would require parrot wouldn't it?
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04:38 svnbot6 r4466, putter++ | Created docs/other/rules_bootstrap
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04:46 QtPlatypus Khisanth: Yes I have.
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05:12 svnbot6 r4467, putter++ | hw2005.txt: 6 spelling corrections.  (not UK-isms - doublechecked with google site:uk word :).
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05:28 masak question: in Apocalypse_Now.spork, the word "DWIMer" is used. Isn't "DWIMmier" more correct? Or is "DWIMer" accepted usage?
05:28 masak both are kinda awkward :/
05:32 masak I guess the problem I have with "DWIMer" is that it sounds more like a noun to me
05:32 mugwump DWIMier is what I'd use
05:32 masak no double "m"?
05:32 mugwump nah
05:32 mugwump it's an acronym
05:32 masak true
05:32 masak should I change it, or should I leave it alone? I don't want to ruin someone's talk :)
05:33 mugwump you could hyphenate it
05:33 masak "DWIM-ier"?
05:33 mugwump sure
05:33 masak yuck :)
05:34 luqui follow english inflection rules.  DWIMmier is the most correct
05:34 luqui if you want to emphasize its double role as a verb and an acronym
05:34 masak I have vague memories of people using it that way
05:34 luqui I think I do
05:34 masak including @Larry
05:34 mugwump http://groups.google.co.uk/group/perl.perl6.lang​uage/search?group=perl.perl6.language&amp;q=dwim​mier&amp;qt_g=1&amp;searchnow=Search+this+group
05:35 mugwump sure, "dwimmier" is fine
05:35 masak so, should I change it or leave it alone?
05:35 batdog has left
05:35 masak I always become a bit nervous with all these svn powers granted to me :)
05:36 luqui svn doesn't allow users to destroy data
05:37 masak I know
05:37 SamB perhaps this is the intent of the generous svn access?
05:37 SamB so that people will be more carefull in their hacking?
05:37 masak but will someone become happier if I change it, or will I piss someone off?
05:37 SamB you may annoy someone, but probably not "piss off".
05:37 mugwump I'm sure no-one will care, as long as the changelog entry is amusing enough
05:37 luqui there's always svn update -r 1337 if you piss someone off
05:38 luqui because the one who gets pissed off has svn powers too :-)
05:38 masak SamB: svn is like hacking where everyone can see you
05:38 masak ok, I'll change it :)
05:38 SamB I was accused pretty nicely of breaking a recent release (though it turned out it was broken before I touched it)
05:39 luqui and our project leader seems to be appreciative of the fact that we're doing work at all
05:39 luqui even if half of it is wrong
05:41 SM_ax has joined #perl6
05:41 masak luqui: yes, it's the thought that counts
05:43 luqui well, and the fact that it takes a fraction of the time to correct as to write in the first place
05:43 masak unrelated question: if i have a cvs repo, can I use either of svn or svk on it?
05:43 svnbot6 r4468, masak++ | After some deliberation, I have dared to change DWIMer into DWIMmier.
05:43 svnbot6 r4468, masak++ | I do believe this is the more correct form. I also believe I am a bit
05:43 svnbot6 r4468, masak++ | too hung up on grammar sometimes. ;)
05:43 masak one changed line, three lines of comment :)
05:44 luqui masak, you can use svk
05:44 masak neat
05:44 masak how?
05:44 luqui and you can use cvs2svn to convert it to a svn repo
05:45 masak hmm... it's not my repo
05:45 luqui svk mirror cvs::pserver:....
05:45 masak luqui: oki, thx
05:45 luqui I just hashed through some problems with that, so you can talk to me if you encounter them
05:46 masak my first problem will be to install svk :)
05:46 luqui ahhh
05:46 masak after using svn for some time w/ pugs, i really don't like cvs
05:47 luqui yep.  after finding out about svn and reading the user manual, it took me about 10 seconds to decide to convert everything I had to svn
05:47 masak lol
05:47 luqui svn is the one of the most beautifully designed piece of software I have ever seen, internally and externally
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05:48 masak if one didn't know about the order of things, one would wonder why cvs was ever created
05:48 masak what are the main differences between svn and svk?
05:48 luqui afaict, svk is a nice mirroring frontend to svn
05:48 luqui (and various other rcs's)
05:49 masak a nice mirroring frontend? whazzat?
05:49 luqui it allows you to work on svn repositories while you are offline, and sync up when you come back online
05:49 luqui plus, it fancifies working with branches even more
05:50 luqui for branches, svk:svn::svn:cvs
05:50 luqui but I think svk uses svn on its backside
05:50 luqui you can ask more at #svk
05:50 luqui I'm just getting started with it
05:50 masak sounds pleasant, in any case
05:50 luqui the only trouble is installation
05:51 masak oh :)
05:51 luqui I couldn't install it until I got gentoo, which had a nice ebuild for it
05:51 masak right now I
05:51 masak am http://svk.elixus.org/?InstallingSVK
05:51 masak I have FC3
05:51 luqui maybe with the release of 1.0 installation has been made easier
05:51 masak yum is happily working right now with subversion-perl
05:52 luqui yum actually had that
05:52 luqui ?
05:52 luqui wow
05:52 masak apparently
05:52 luqui that was the main difference between FC2 and gentoo to me.  FC2 had about 1/3 of the packages I wanted, gentoo had 98%
05:53 luqui is there an "FC3 unstable" or something like that
05:53 luqui that has more packages, but which haven't been tested as much?
05:54 masak dunno, I may have added a few repos to my list
05:55 masak make is chugging away happily now
05:55 masak this is so exciting!
05:55 * luqui is currently building kdelibs
05:55 luqui and has been for the past 30 minutes
05:56 masak ah
05:56 luqui but I suppose it's not as bad as ghc
05:56 masak perlbot nopaste
05:56 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
05:56 luqui ?eval say "moo";
05:56 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
05:56 luqui ?eval "moo";
05:56 evalbot6 'moo'
05:56 luqui ?eval "moo".chars;
05:56 evalbot6 3
05:57 masak I just got a test failure and a question "is this reasonable? [Yn]"
05:57 masak hold on
05:58 luqui ?eval "foo" ~~ /foo/
05:58 evalbot6 Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem! C file src/memory.c, line 45 Parrot file (not available), line (not available)  We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on Parrot.  Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an e-mail to perl6-internals@perl.org. Include the entire text of this error message and the text of the script that generated the error.  If you've made any modifications to Parrot, please describe them
05:58 pasteling "masak" at 130.238.83.176 pasted "I got a test failure when trying to install svk" (10 lines, 338B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10870
05:58 luqui ack
05:58 masak luqui: you crasched evalbot! you bastard ;)
05:59 geoffb </lurk>masak, luqui: as I recall, svk uses *most* of SVN as its backend, but not the working copy library, which the SVK developers (clkao) don't like, and which is apparently a large part of the reason SVN is actually slower than SVK, despite the latter being written largely in Perl instead of C<lurk>
05:59 SamB how do you include the text of a script like that?
05:59 masak geoffb: ah, thx
05:59 SamB I mean, you would have to include EVERYTHING that got fed to evalbot6 up to that point, wouldn't you?
05:59 QtPlatypus luqui: regexes his briking in evalbot
06:00 QtPlatypus SamB: I suspect it was I who killed evalbot :(
06:00 masak QtPlatypus: why do you suspect that?
06:01 luqui masak, the test failure looks reasonable, but go ask #svk
06:01 * luqui & movie
06:01 masak luqui: I'll go with "yes"
06:01 Darren_Duncan fyi, r4465 gave these results with all the default settings and no parrot or perl 5: Failed 24/322 test scripts, 92.55% okay. 280/6143 subtests failed, 95.44% okay.
06:01 luqui yeah, it's not like it's going to go: whoops, a bug, system "rm -rf /"
06:02 QtPlatypus masak: I was testing if eval bot handled subs included in regexps.  It was working normally before then.
06:03 masak w00t! I now have svk! :D
06:04 masak QtPlatypus: so what went wrong?
06:04 QtPlatypus It spat that error.
06:04 masak yes :) but why?
06:05 QtPlatypus I suspect that my code tickeled a bug in the parrot based regex parser.
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06:08 Darren_Duncan question: I'm already running svn and it seems to work fine ... is there any reason for me to switch to svk?
06:09 obra do you ever work on multiple branches or work without a net connection?
06:09 obra do you work with Large source trees?
06:09 obra Of the answer to any of these questions is "yes", then svk may be an amazing win for you.
06:09 obra Also "do you hate .svn directories?"
06:10 luqui "do you like ketchup on fries?"
06:11 Darren_Duncan currently my answer to all 4 of those questions is 'no'
06:11 Darren_Duncan all 5 that is
06:11 Darren_Duncan that said, I may want to work on multiple branches in the future
06:11 obra Oh. do you ever want to keep local commits to repositories you don't have write access to?
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06:12 Darren_Duncan I haven't needed to yet
06:12 obra ok
06:12 Darren_Duncan to be honest, Pugs is the only project I've used svn with
06:12 obra What do you use for other projects?
06:12 Darren_Duncan my own projects I don't use any formal version control with
06:13 Darren_Duncan I treat each CPAN release like a check-in in a way
06:13 Darren_Duncan and otherwise just make tarred copies of intermediate steps as something to revert to
06:13 Darren_Duncan but I'm also the sole author
06:13 Darren_Duncan I intend to use something like svn when I work on projects with multiple authors
06:14 Darren_Duncan this is just a historical thing, not necessarily a good reason; the main good reason is simplicity
06:15 Darren_Duncan my more immediate reason for the question was whether I should use svk with Pugs
06:15 Darren_Duncan but I don't yet consider that to be 'Large'
06:16 Darren_Duncan when my SQL-Routine/Rosetta project becomes good enough that multiple people *want* to author it, I'll probably move it into version control
06:17 Darren_Duncan speaking of SQL-Routine etc, I have an ambitious goal for it to be "done" by the end of June ... as in end-to-end useful in daily work
06:18 masak w00t! svk works! :)
06:19 Darren_Duncan this includes a new SQL-Routine-SQLParser and Rosetta-Emulator-DBI modules, with which any other Perl programs written to use DBI or one of its wrappers can "just work" with Rosetta etc, which means more seamless portability across databases
06:19 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
06:19 Darren_Duncan I'll return tomorrow, good night!
06:20 Darren_Duncan has left
06:20 nothingmuch morning
06:23 masak morning
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06:26 svnbot6 r4469, putter++ | hw2005.txt: minor grammar tweaks.  mostly tenseand plurality agreement, missing commas, preposition selection, breaking ;-ed sentences.  Nifty paper.
06:29 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
06:45 ingy hola
06:45 svnbot6 r4470, putter++ | rules_bootstrap: added "compiling rules into Parsec combinators" plan mentioned in hw2005.txt.
06:46 ingy nothingmuch: are you going to the hackathon?
06:46 nothingmuch ingy: yes
06:46 nothingmuch why do you ask?
06:46 ingy nothingmuch: do you know if there is broadband there?
06:46 nothingmuch got something interesting for me to try?
06:46 nothingmuch iirc there isn't
06:47 ingy hmmm
06:47 ingy well that will certainly suck
06:47 nothingmuch it will
06:47 ingy grrr
06:47 nothingmuch but it will also make us seem super secret too
06:48 ingy but I already seem sooper sekrit :P
06:50 nothingmuch_ has joined #perl6
06:50 * Aankhen`` curses the fact that reinstalling Windows means reconfiguring his entire development environment, which in turn means figuring out what he had done to his development environment in the first place.
06:50 ingy Aankhen``: sadness
06:50 nothingmuch_ sorry
06:51 nothingmuch_ ingy: you said "grr", then I got nothing
06:51 Aankhen`` Indeed.
06:51 Aankhen`` But on the bright side, my system's now blazingly fast. :-D
06:51 ingy 23:48 < ingy> but I already seem sooper sekrit :P
06:52 Aankhen`` (for someone who played Doom 3 at 20 FPS at 640x480, Low Quality, 55 FPS at 1024x768, High Quality, 4xAA and 8xAF is quite fast enough =)
06:52 ingy fyi I said "grrr"
06:52 ingy I feel grrr8
06:52 ingy like Tony
06:53 nothingmuch_ maybe we can get a temp solution if we all chip in some $$$?
06:54 ingy well we'd better bring it up soon
06:54 vcv- has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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07:05 * Aankhen`` wonders whether HTTP::Message would be better as a role rather than a class.
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07:19 Aankhen`` Heh.  I'm looking at the latest messages in the "reduce metaoperator on an empty list" thread, and Google popped up "4.1 Naming and binding" from www.python.org in the ads.
07:19 ingy sweeet
07:20 Aankhen`` Most of the time, though, messages on p6l and p6c bring with them ads for mod_perl... usually this: "Introduction to mod_perl (part 5): More Perl Basics".  Freaky.
07:23 pdcawley Oh ghod. Not the reduce metaoperator thread.
07:23 pdcawley I'm really hoping it'll've died out by the time I write the next summary.
07:23 lathos pdcawley: Incidentally, Buscador is up and feeding on p6*
07:23 lathos http://buscador.simon-cozens.org/
07:24 pdcawley Buscador?
07:25 crysflame heh
07:25 crysflame er, ww
07:25 crysflame hi
07:25 crysflame lathos++ # buscador
07:26 Southen has joined #perl6
07:27 nothingmuch_ lathos: what does buscador do differently?
07:29 knewt_ has joined #perl6
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07:31 autrijus_ greetings from APW!
07:32 QtPlatypus Greetings.
07:32 lathos Quite a lot. It keeps track of messages over multiple lists, it can arrange threads in several different ways, it keeps track of people from different email addresses, it gives you syndication feeds for everything...
07:32 lathos It separates off attachments in a friendly way.
07:32 * QtPlatypus prefs the nntp interface.
07:33 scook0 has joined #perl6
07:33 lathos http://buscador.simon-cozens.org/name/view/529 is an example.
07:35 ingy hi autrijus-san
07:36 autrijus_ greetings ingy-san.
07:36 ingy :)
07:36 svnbot6 r4471, autrijus++ | * ApocNow: Content's mostly there.
07:36 autrijus_ I learned about latex presentation (beamer) today.
07:36 autrijus_ it makes beautiful presentations.
07:36 ingy I'm totally rethinking Perldoc
07:36 autrijus_ however \latex{} is much more verbose than `Kwid`
07:37 autrijus_ so I'm going back to Kwid/Spork for my talk. :)
07:37 ingy ;)
07:37 pdcawley Is it easy to get at Opentype goodness in LaTeX yet?
07:37 autrijus_ no idea :)
07:38 ingy autrijus_: how do you feel about a hackathon without internet?
07:38 lathos Also http://buscador.simon-cozens.org/mail/lurker/2​0050609020056.8600.qmail@lists.develooper.com
07:38 knewt_ autrijus_: committing again already eh :)
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07:40 autrijus_ knewt_: :)
07:40 autrijus_ ingy: completely without? that'd be bad
07:40 autrijus_ hm. anyone have tuits to chase test failures about the undef->undefine change?
07:41 autrijus_ and maybe grep the t/ and examples/ a bit to change undef($x) to undefine($x)
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07:48 autrijus_ hm. come to think about it, maybe delay this after the release
07:48 svnbot6 r4472, autrijus++ | * make http-server.p6 more readable
07:48 * autrijus_ does a local branch for s/undef/undefined/
07:48 autrijus_ undefine, even
07:50 knewt_ ah, not too bad. only 16 commits since i synced up before flying yesterday. but then, autrijus_ /has/ been busy flying over here :)
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07:53 svnbot6 r4473, autrijus++ | * hw2005 - review from Nicholas.
07:54 pdcawley Are the reviews collected anywhere?
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07:57 knewt_ autrijus_: do you have on a black t-shirt with a camel on it?
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08:01 autrijus_ knewt_: yes!
08:01 svnbot6 r4474, autrijus++ | * further review comments from Allison.
08:01 svnbot6 r4473, autrijus++ | * hw2005 - review from Nicholas.
08:01 autrijus_ pdcawley: they are collected in my inbox... they are not public
08:01 autrijus_ but I mostly just applied their unidiff patches
08:01 integral_ is now known as integral
08:01 autrijus_ pdcawley: care to review the paper for me? :)
08:02 * pdcawley wonders why feather's zsh will only use C-h to delete stuff.
08:02 autrijus_ the deadline for submission is tomorrow :-/
08:02 pdcawley autrijus: I've just skimmed it, I'll give it another read later.
08:02 autrijus_ pdcawley: danke!
08:02 autrijus_ knewt_: where are you?
08:03 nothingmuch_ morning
08:03 autrijus_ yo nothingmuch_
08:03 nothingmuch_ err, morning autrijus
08:03 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
08:04 knewt_ autrijus_: orange shirt 1 back and 4 to the left
08:06 autrijus_ gotcha :)
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08:22 nothingmuch autrijus: how's Vienna?
08:26 autrijus_ nothingmuch: excellent weather
08:26 autrijus_ despite the forecasts
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08:29 svnbot6 r4475, autrijus++ | * correct getc's use of adverbial function parameters
08:44 autrijus_ sri_: you around?
08:44 svnbot6 r4476, scook0++ | * hw2005: 'et al.' fixes & some 80-char reflowing
08:44 svnbot6 r4477, autrijus++ | * hw2005 - more reviews from shapr.
08:47 Juerd geoffb: Yes
08:48 nothingmuch autrijus: did you get my parsec musings?
08:48 iblechbot has joined #perl6
08:48 autrijus_ nothingmuch: no. where/
08:48 nothingmuch one sec
08:48 autrijus_ I'm out of battery... 0%
08:48 * autrijus_ runs out to get eletricity
08:49 autrijus_ yay, just in time
08:49 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "using parsec to make pesto" (6 lines, 387B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10873
08:49 autrijus_ <- glad that I left the room before it starts to beep real loud
08:50 nothingmuch what room?
08:50 autrijus_ the apw conference room
08:50 autrijus_ the APW is underway
08:50 nothingmuch oh!
08:50 nothingmuch then don't let me bother you
08:50 autrijus_ nah, that's fine
08:50 autrijus_ parsec can handle non-Char types
08:50 autrijus_ that you know
08:51 autrijus_ so of course it can match trees
08:51 nothingmuch the problem is how to make it convert it's matching paradgim
08:51 nothingmuch so that it does backtrack,
08:51 nothingmuch and that many shapes of a grammer can match
08:51 nothingmuch but that some are better than others
08:52 autrijus_ well, you can have the matches return a weighted thing
08:52 autrijus_ and sort by weight
08:52 nothingmuch right
08:53 autrijus_ that won't be hard actually
08:53 autrijus_ just two lines or so
08:53 nothingmuch but i need to prune the match space very aggressively
08:53 autrijus_ yeah, so you need nondet
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08:53 autrijus_ you can chase http://haskell.org/hawiki/NonDeterminism and links
08:53 autrijus_ it's a well known design
08:53 nothingmuch okay, i'll keep thinking about it
08:53 nothingmuch when harrorth is done I'll try to tackle that next
08:54 autrijus_ k
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08:56 nothingmuch beh, fucking network
09:00 q[pdcawley] Mmm... nondeterministic programming...
09:01 clkao autrijus_: do you happen to have my svk slides? iirc you cped them for me to do a presentation somewhere
09:01 q[pdcawley] Shame that my call_cc implementation doesn't work or I'd have the bones of NonDet programming for Perl 6 implemented by now.
09:02 xerox AMB ?
09:05 autrijus clkao: can't find it easily
09:05 autrijus q[pdcawley]: uh?
09:05 autrijus q[pdcawley]: I can give you callcc for perl6 in pugs
09:06 nothingmuch is q[] a cult?
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09:38 q[acme] nothingmuch: yes
09:45 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
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10:14 nothingmuch what is the cult about?
10:20 q[acme] about non-globally-unique nicks
10:20 nothingmuch ooh, wow
10:21 nothingmuch i would join, but i'm not sure i want to
10:24 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
10:24 lathos I'm not sure you need to. :)
10:27 q[acme] is now known as acme
10:28 * theorbtwo is glad to say that he's never come across another 'theorbtwo' spelt as such.
10:29 clkao q[acme]: the other acme was slashdotted yesterday
10:29 vcv- has joined #perl6
10:30 acme i noticed - i get a lot of spam too!
10:31 pjcj I suspect that's a mistake and the spammers meant to send it to the other chap
10:31 pjcj you should let them know
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10:55 autrijus yay, finally got contents done
10:55 vcv-- has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
10:55 svnbot6 r4478, autrijus++ | * Content and formatting foreeze for apocnow
10:55 autrijus 30 minutes left
10:55 autrijus time to google image
10:56 xerox 30 mins left to.. ?
10:56 autrijus the Perl 6 track of Austrian Perl Workshop
10:58 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
11:03 xerox Any live audio/video feed? :)
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11:08 q[pdcawley] xerox: Just watch the SVN logs...
11:12 autrijus heh :)
11:12 autrijus no, I don't think there's one
11:12 autrijus but it's broadcasted to the FPW
11:12 autrijus so it should be recorded somewhere
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11:15 meppl has joined #perl6
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11:40 autrijus_ hey chip-san
11:46 dakkar has joined #perl6
11:47 Aankhen`` Woo hoo!  No more slow down while compiling Pugs.AST.Internals!
11:47 Aankhen`` I wub my new processor. :-D
11:49 autrijus_ new processor++
11:49 autrijus_ how good is it?
11:49 Aankhen`` Works great so far. =)
11:49 Juerd How bad was your previous? :)
11:50 Aankhen`` On my old processor, I could barely do anything else while compiling Pugs, especially Pugs.AST.Internals.
11:50 Aankhen`` Everything would freeze up.
11:50 Aankhen`` Now, there's absolutely no slowdown -- everything is as responsive as ever.
11:50 Aankhen`` HyperThreading++
11:51 q[pdcawley] What's your new processor?
11:51 Aankhen`` Remind me to measure the time...
11:51 Aankhen`` Intel Pentium 4 630.
11:51 Aankhen`` (3.0 GHz., HT, 32/64-bit ready, 2 MB cache)
11:52 q[pdcawley] Shiny!
11:52 Aankhen`` Literally -- I got a new case too. =)
11:52 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
11:52 autrijus_ very shiny!
11:53 Aankhen`` And the guy threw in a nice 430W CoolerMaster power supply for no extra charge.
11:54 hlen has joined #perl6
11:54 Aankhen`` It's fun to watch the test scripts being run... I can't even see the individual tests, it just flashes a number and says "ok", then moves on to the next one. :-D
11:54 Aankhen`` I can't wait to see what happens on the rules tests, though. :-P
11:55 autrijus_ :)
11:55 * Aankhen`` goes to see what happens when he starts Doom 3.
11:58 Aankhen`` A nice and steady 45 FPS. =)
11:59 Aankhen`` The 1 GB of RAM probably helped, come to think of it. :-P
11:59 Aankhen`` Ah, if only I had five bucks for every smiley I typed...
12:05 autrijus_ I hope I can have access to that as a laptop :)
12:10 Juerd 9 different users are logged in on feather, some run irssi, some use editors - the load is 0.00 :)
12:11 Limbic_Region hey autrijus_ - how is your net access ATM?
12:19 webmind Juerd, no one is using pugs? :)
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12:19 Juerd webmind: Not many
12:19 Juerd webmind: And not much
12:20 autrijus_ Limbic_Region: passable
12:22 webmind Juerd, well.. I guess most of the coding is typing anyway
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12:36 svnbot6 r4479, autrijus++ | * images part done for apocnow!
12:36 vcv- has joined #perl6
12:38 autrijus_ whew.
12:38 autrijus_ http://pugscode.org/
12:38 autrijus_ click on "APW slides" from left
12:40 Juerd autrijus_: slide12c
12:40 Juerd autrijus_: s:0/@h/%h/
12:41 integral hmm, what mac browser has a full screen mode?   Opera?
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12:41 autrijus right.
12:41 autrijus good catch
12:41 Limbic_Region autrijus - in that case, if you get some free time could you take a look at http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=464502 and http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=366280
12:41 autrijus I'm going to speak in 3 mins
12:41 Limbic_Region tall_man (a pretty smart guy) thinks he has found a bug
12:42 * Limbic_Region just can't make heads or tails of it
12:42 Limbic_Region oh - well have fun ;-)
12:42 Aankhen`` integral >> Opera does have a full screen mode, assuming it's available for the Mac. :-)
12:42 Limbic_Region break a leg as they say
12:42 integral Aankhen``: pity it's not very macish ;-)
12:42 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
12:43 Aankhen`` Luckily I'm not inflicted with Mac OS-itis. =)
12:43 Aankhen`` Apple does return the favour though... have you seen iTunes on Windows?
12:43 * integral hasn't
12:43 Aankhen`` It's bloated, slow, ugly, and badly behaved.
12:43 integral heh
12:43 Juerd autrijus_: slide20b - I thought there were no parens around the ;; part of a loop loop?
12:44 Aankhen`` I'm sure you could say the same about Opera on the Mac. ;-)
12:46 lumi Opera has fullscreen on mac
12:47 * Aankhen`` wanders off.
12:49 Juerd autrijus_: slide30c
12:49 Juerd autrijus_: ('a'..'c') »x« 3
12:49 Juerd autrijus_: Shouldn't that be just >>x, as there is no array on the RHS?
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12:57 integral lumi++; thanks!
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13:13 Limbic_Region oh - I think I finally get the bug tall_man was trying to point out
13:13 Limbic_Region I have seen it myself but thought it was that way by design
13:14 Limbic_Region if you have a named parameter but invoke the sub as though it were positional - it shouldn't automatically morph for you should it?
13:14 Limbic_Region I assumed the answer was yes - but apparently tall_man doesn't think so
13:14 Limbic_Region for instance
13:15 Limbic_Region ?eval sub bar ( $foo) { $foo } bar(3);
13:15 evalbot6 \3
13:15 Limbic_Region tall_man is saying that for that to do the right thing, I should have had to call bar as bar( foo => 3 )
13:15 osfameron why \3 rather than 3 ?
13:15 Limbic_Region ?eval sub bar ( $foo) { $foo } bar(foo => 3);
13:15 evalbot6 \3
13:16 Limbic_Region that part I don't know osfameron, but it doesn't have anything to do with the bug
13:16 osfameron true, sorry
13:16 Limbic_Region grrr
13:16 Limbic_Region my plus symbol is broke
13:17 Limbic_Region would you mind trying those two for me again
13:17 Limbic_Region only in the sub signature make it plus$foo
13:17 osfameron ?eval sub bar (+$foo) { $foo } bar(foo => 3);
13:17 evalbot6 \3
13:18 Limbic_Region and now the other way? where bar is just called with bar($foo)
13:18 osfameron ?eval sub bar (+$foo) { $foo } bar(3);
13:18 evalbot6 \3
13:18 Limbic_Region yeah
13:18 Limbic_Region that probably shouldn't work
13:18 osfameron why not?
13:18 Limbic_Region I thought it was by design but apparently not
13:19 Limbic_Region $foo is a named parameter
13:19 Limbic_Region it is magically becoming a positional
13:19 osfameron I thought that was designed
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13:19 osfameron it's to prevent you from having to do
13:19 osfameron my ($foo, $bar, $baz) = @_;
13:20 Limbic_Region I am not sure you are understanding
13:20 Limbic_Region in the sub signature - you can have, required, optional, named, positional, etc type variables
13:21 Limbic_Region using named variables (which are optional unless marked as required)
13:21 Limbic_Region you can place the variables in any order
13:21 Limbic_Region so
13:21 Limbic_Region sub bar ( plus$foo, plus$bar) { ... }
13:21 Limbic_Region could be called as bar( bar => 3, foo => 2)
13:21 Limbic_Region or bar( foo => 3, bar => 2 );
13:22 Limbic_Region order doesn't matter
13:22 Limbic_Region without the plus symbol - they are positional (meaning they have to come in order specified in signature)
13:22 Limbic_Region what is happening in the bug
13:22 Limbic_Region is a named parameter is becoming positional
13:22 osfameron ah
13:23 Limbic_Region if you say it is named then you really need to name it foo => 3
13:23 Limbic_Region you can't just choose to leave off the name (3)
13:23 Limbic_Region but pugs isn't b1tching
13:23 Limbic_Region osfameron - do you have commit rights?
13:24 osfameron Limbic_Region: nah, I mainly lurk
13:24 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
13:24 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
13:24 Limbic_Region ok - well I am going to come up with a bugtest and hopefully someone can commit for me - otherwise I will tonight
13:24 QtPlatypus Has anyone tested my buggy code?
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13:30 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Can someone with round tuits please commit this test as t/pugsbugs/named_2_positional.t after performing a sanity check" (14 lines, 384B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10879
13:30 * Limbic_Region is off to a meeting now
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13:47 mj41 perlbot: nopaste ?
13:47 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
13:47 wolverian Limbic_Region: I'll take a shot at it.
13:48 pasteling "mj41" at 147.229.221.107 pasted "1 2 or 2 2 ?" (16 lines, 134B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10881
13:52 wolverian heh. Test.pm declares the description arguments as +$desc
13:52 wolverian so that shouldn't work either as a positional
13:52 wolverian but just about _all_ the tests use it as a positional
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13:53 QtPlatypus Can some people try out the code in http://sial.org/pbot/10867 and see if it causes there pugs to segfault.
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14:03 svnbot6 r4480, wolverian++ | Named args as positionals test from Limbic_Region++
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14:05 autark-jp QtPlatypus: did not segfault here.
14:06 QtPlatypus Odd.  What version are you using?
14:06 autark-jp #4470
14:09 QtPlatypus Me has r4459,  I'll see if upgrading helps.
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14:28 svnbot6 r4481, rootmj++ | + sub reset_params returns Void is export { %PARAMS = (); $IS_PARAMS_LOADED = 0; }
14:44 mj41 Src (pugs is 80% perl 6, so many ugly hacks, but you can change htdocs/* without server restart )http://wiki.kn.vutbr.cz/mj​/attach/pugs/http-server/
14:44 mj41 Slow online demo http://a05-0612a.kn.vutbr.cz:8080/page.p6
14:47 domm sorry, quick question
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15:25 osfameron ?eval sub avg { [+] @_ / @_.elems }  avg(3,5)
15:25 evalbot6 1.0
15:25 osfameron !
15:25 osfameron ?eval sub avg { ([+] @_) / @_.elems }  avg(3,5)
15:25 evalbot6 4
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15:25 osfameron phew
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15:30 svnbot6 r4482, iblech++ | * docs/other/rules_bootstrap, t/pugsbugs/named_2_positional.t -- Usual svn props
15:30 svnbot6 r4482, iblech++ | * docs/talks/README: Added autrijus++'s "Apocalypse Now" talk.
15:30 svnbot6 r4483, iblech++ | docs/talks/README -- Oops, fix typo.
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15:34 Juerd Hmm
15:34 Juerd How about [+: @_]
15:34 Juerd :)
15:34 xerox :+]
15:34 Juerd No
15:34 Juerd Must be prefix.
15:34 xerox I was just smileying :(
15:35 Khisanth ?eval [+: 1..10]
15:35 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting program
15:35 osfameron ?eval [+: 1,2,3]
15:35 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting program
15:35 Khisanth that doesn't work!
15:35 Juerd Duh
15:35 Juerd I just suggested it. Things don't get implemented within seconds from that.
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15:35 Khisanth but what advantage does it have?
15:35 osfameron it's pretty
15:36 osfameron and you don't need more disambiguating parens
15:36 Juerd It makes it a non-listop
15:36 Khisanth thought you meant that was an alternative :)
15:36 Juerd (precedence wise)
15:36 Khisanth [+| @_]? :P
15:36 Juerd And I think it's clearer
15:36 Juerd No |.
15:36 Juerd | is used in infix operators that you'd reduce.
15:36 Juerd : is not, afaik.
15:36 Khisanth larry was right, everyone wants the colon
15:37 Juerd Can we keep this all a technical discussion?
15:37 Juerd It's not about wanting the colon.
15:37 Juerd It's about lack of alternatives, where a colon would work and even look nice.
15:37 Khisanth actually I do agree with all the stuff you have said
15:37 integral what if I, as a haskell user, like to name my custom infix operators things like :+: ?
15:38 Juerd integral: You'd get very pissed.
15:38 Khisanth integral: back into the hell you were in with source filters?
15:38 integral bah! :-)
15:38 Juerd =:= is a problem too.
15:39 Khisanth integral: but if that is the case you would run into that problem ... oops you can redefine the [:] as well can't you? :P
15:39 integral Juerd: is a delimiter other than whitespace needed?
15:39 Khisanth of course you would end up with your own custom languages nobody can read
15:39 Juerd integral: Yes, because [] creates arrays too.
15:39 integral err, and doesn't this have problems with [] creating arrays?
15:39 Juerd It has to be currently invalid syntax.
15:40 integral I thought the only reason [] could be used for reduce was that *only* an operator could be in it, so it's very unambiguous?
15:40 Juerd integral: There's absolutely no difference between [op] and [op:, parse wise.
15:40 Juerd Longest match wins.
15:40 Juerd That's why ~ doesn't clash with ~~.
15:41 integral hmm
15:41 osfameron but it's then visually ambiguous because it looks like it contains an array
15:41 Khisanth osfameron: doesn't seem like a problem if you are used to reading from left to right
15:43 osfameron maybe not, but if you see something ending ...1,2,3], it could be confusing.  Anyway, no longer a convenient "pill"
15:43 Juerd All true.
15:51 xinming has joined #perl6
15:51 svnbot6 r4484, iblech++ | undef(...) is now undefine(...) (see
15:51 svnbot6 r4484, iblech++ | http://groups.google.com/groups?thre​adm=20050601002444.GB32060@wall.org).
15:51 svnbot6 r4485, iblech++ | ext/Test-Builder/t -- unTODO four succeeding tests.
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16:00 QtPlatypus I beleave there is a metaoperator or metatinfix thing like postfix and infix.
16:00 svnbot6 r4486, iblech++ | t/rules/from_perl6_rules/charset.t -- Make it compile again.
16:00 svnbot6 r4487, iblech++ | Make while.t parse again, too.
16:07 iblech has joined #perl6
16:07 svnbot6 r4488, iblech++ | ext/CGI/t/util.t -- Make it parse again, too. Now all tests should at least
16:07 svnbot6 r4488, iblech++ | parse again. :)
16:08 xerox One gets multiple `++'s writing long comments, yay ;)
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16:09 PerlJam xerox: and that's why bot karma is relatively useless.
16:10 traecer has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:12 corneli hi! im new around here - is there a doc somewhere to check what features of perl6 are available in pugs? i want to help!
16:16 PerlJam corneli: Start at http://www.pugscode.org/ and go from there.
16:16 PerlJam corneli: checkout a copy of pugs and start playing.
16:17 corneli PerlJam: i have a copy of pugs... just don't know what I can play with :)
16:17 PerlJam corneli: Well, what do you want to play with?
16:17 PerlJam do you know haskell?  
16:17 PerlJam do you know perl5?
16:18 corneli nowhere enough haskell to help with the projects (never got to monads) - i do know perl5
16:18 PerlJam have you read the AES?
16:19 corneli not too closely - only picked a few features from here and there.
16:21 Limbic_Region wolverian plusplus - thanks for adding the test for me
16:21 PerlJam corneli: you might want to start by looking at the tests and try adding some of your own.
16:21 PerlJam corneli: or maybe translate some perl5 to perl6
16:22 PerlJam corneli: or reading the AES and to find things that are specced but not yet in pugs and not yet tested for and write a test for them.
16:24 corneli Great - Are the AES the formal sources for what should be working (even if it's not implemented now)? i had the feeling that pugs introduced at least some differences?
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16:25 macGuy has joined #perl6
16:25 macGuy hello
16:26 macGuy if i have a foreach statement like foreach $_ (@_) and sometimes in the iteration i want to know which index i am looking at in @_ how can i tell
16:27 elmex has joined #perl6
16:27 QtPlatypus macGuy: Are you asking about perl6 or perl5?
16:27 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
16:27 macGuy would there be any difference?
16:28 macGuy im working on a project that would be executed on perl 5
16:28 QtPlatypus Then you realy should ask in a perl channel.  perl6 is very diffrent to perl5
16:28 macGuy k
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16:52 wolverian Limbic_Region: you're welcome
16:52 wolverian Limbic_Region: did you notice that most of the .t files depend on the wrong behaviour :)
16:52 PerlJam corneli: The information path is like this (from least definitive to most definitive) Apocalypse, Exegesis, Synopsis, perl6-language.  
16:54 corneli Great. THanks
16:55 PerlJam And while that last one has the most up-to-date information, you often have to wade through the random ideas of other non-@Larry people to get it.
16:57 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
16:57 corneli Looks like it's a very practical development effort
17:00 rjbs has joined #perl6
17:00 PerlJam corneli: Areas that are currently in-the-works are better OO support and p6rules.
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17:00 rjbs Stupid question.  Can one hyper a bare block?
17:01 Limbic_Region wolverian - yes
17:01 PerlJam rjbs: and what would that mean exactly?
17:01 rjbs @a >>{ $^a ~ " is with " ~ $^b }<< @b
17:01 Limbic_Region wolverian - I think that was tall_man's point
17:01 wolverian Limbic_Region: who?
17:01 PerlJam rjbs: that looks like zip
17:01 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=tall_man
17:02 rjbs I thought zip would just produce the zipped list?
17:02 rjbs I understand I could map {...} zip
17:02 wolverian Limbic_Region: yeah.
17:03 wolverian I guess one could s/// the files mostly to fix it
17:03 Limbic_Region I am going to search for the portion in AES6 that says it is bad
17:03 Limbic_Region perhaps add it to a comment
17:03 wolverian well, it can't really be fixed until the test cases are fixed
17:04 wolverian or the whole test system goes kaboom
17:08 Limbic_Region are there really that many tests using named parameters as positional - or am I missing something?
17:08 wolverian maybe not - I only looked in pugsbugs
17:09 wolverian hmm. builtins/arrays/ is full of it too.
17:09 Juerd Who are at the APW? How are things there?
17:09 wolverian Limbic_Region: $desc in ok() is named
17:09 wolverian and about all the tests I see use it as positional
17:10 Limbic_Region Juerd - see http://use.perl.org/~cog/journal/25113
17:10 Limbic_Region apparently there is an IRC channel to see what's going on
17:10 wolverian a simple fix is to simply convert +$desc to $desc, as just about no-one uses the named interface
17:11 Juerd I see
17:11 Juerd Thanks
17:11 Limbic_Region walang anuman
17:11 Limbic_Region wolverian - not sure that's such a good idea either
17:11 wolverian Limbic_Region: probably not, but the other option is the mass s///. do you have tuits for it? :)
17:11 Limbic_Region probably should confirm that it needs to be fixed, fix it, and see what break
17:11 wolverian of course it needs to be fixed. it's wrong behaviour.
17:12 wolverian (as said by Larry)
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17:13 Limbic_Region wolverian - ok - found supporting doc
17:13 Limbic_Region Larry didn't say that it needed to be fixed
17:13 Limbic_Region he said that tall_man's original test was flawed
17:14 Limbic_Region in fact there was a real problem, just not the one tall_man thought
17:14 Limbic_Region he (tall_man) later /msg'd me with what he thought the real problem was
17:14 Limbic_Region and he is right
17:14 Limbic_Region from S06 "They can only be passed by name"
17:14 Limbic_Region so if you feel like updating the test with a comment from S06 - be my guest
17:15 Limbic_Region "Arguments that correspond to named parameters are evaluated in scalar context. They can only be passed by name, ..."
17:17 Limbic_Region it is a bummer that many people incorrectly used named parameters then
17:19 sysfault has joined #perl6
17:19 Juerd That makes sense, doesn't it?
17:19 Juerd All non-slurpy arguments are evaluated in scalar context.
17:19 Juerd And all slurpy arguments are evaluated in list context.
17:19 Juerd Named arguments are never slurpy.
17:20 Juerd It also makes sense in that the value of a pair is always scalar
17:21 Limbic_Region Juerd - it makes perfect sense - Pugs is broke though
17:21 Limbic_Region what's worse - is people have written numerous tests (according to wolverian) using the incorrect behavior
17:21 Limbic_Region so fixing the bug will result in many tests breaking
17:22 Juerd Interesting
17:22 Juerd What were people thinking, I wonder in such cases.
17:22 Juerd I can understand that there is a bug
17:22 Limbic_Region probably copy/paste someone else's test
17:22 Juerd But why were these tests written
17:22 Limbic_Region that test had it wrong and people just changed variable names leaving in the plus symbol not knowing what it was for
17:22 Juerd Or were they testing existing behaviour? That's always dangerous - to test after the fact.
17:22 Limbic_Region that's just a guess btw - no idea if it represents reality
17:23 Juerd Or is perhaps context not clear enough?
17:23 Limbic_Region the scalar context isn't the part that I am hung up on
17:23 Limbic_Region basically if you create a signature with a named parameter - you can call it without naming it
17:23 Juerd Oh
17:24 Limbic_Region Pugs magically turns it into a positional parameter
17:24 Juerd Aha
17:24 Juerd That is a bug then yes
17:24 Limbic_Region I would demonstrate but my client eats plus symbols
17:24 Juerd aww
17:24 Juerd Have you tried '+', "+" and \+?
17:24 Juerd Or can you not even enter them?
17:24 Limbic_Region ' ', " ", \
17:24 Limbic_Region it eats them
17:25 Juerd I think it's a proxy that does this
17:25 Limbic_Region cgi irc in case you were wondering
17:25 Juerd Not CGI:IRC
17:25 SamB really?
17:25 Juerd For fun, try %25 and see if you get %25 or % out of it
17:25 Limbic_Region SamB - really to what?
17:25 Limbic_Region %25
17:25 Juerd Weird.
17:25 SamB maybe the CGI is a broken?
17:25 Limbic_Region Juerd - I don't think it has anything to do with a proxy since it works fine everywhere else
17:26 Juerd I doubt that the CGI is broken. CGI:IRC is very popular and the bug would have been noticed and fixed long
17:26 Juerd It could be an old CGI:IRC.
17:26 Limbic_Region possible
17:27 Limbic_Region I am reading the FAQ now
17:28 Juerd Can you visit arbitrary URLs?
17:28 Juerd I've installed cgiirc on feather, to see what it'd do
17:28 Limbic_Region yes
17:28 Juerd Let's see how this thing is configured first
17:29 xinming has joined #perl6
17:30 juerd_cgi has joined #perl6
17:31 juerd_cgi hello!
17:31 juerd_cgi plus:  
17:31 Juerd Hm
17:31 Juerd Stupid thing!
17:31 Juerd BUT - I can debug this one :)
17:32 Limbic_Region I should debug too but I only need it at work (where I can't ssh to the machine it is residing on)
17:32 Limbic_Region at home, I don't think to do that since I can use a real client
17:34 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
17:34 Limbic_Region Juerd - once you get it fixed I will just use feather if you don't mind
17:34 Juerd ## The clever regexp bit is from cgi-lib.pl
17:34 Juerd Oh god.
17:34 Juerd They took something "clever" from cgi-lib.pl
17:34 Juerd No wonder it's horribly broken.
17:35 Juerd Not tomention the indenting.
17:35 * Juerd removes the s/\+/ /g line.
17:35 Juerd How the HELL does this *work*, anyway?
17:35 Juerd map { s/\+/ /g; ... } split(...);
17:36 Juerd Tell me - how does that s/// mutate a read only $_?
17:36 Juerd Sure, this worked in perl 4 and early 5s
17:36 Juerd But how can this work with current perl?
17:36 Juerd Obviously it works.
17:36 juerd_cgi has quit IRC ("sucky client")
17:37 juerd_cgi has joined #perl6
17:37 juerd_cgi Hi again
17:37 juerd_cgi plus: +
17:37 juerd_cgi hurrah.
17:37 Limbic_Region yeah
17:37 Limbic_Region what's the url?
17:38 Limbic_Region oh - please please please tell me it is running on port 80?
17:38 juerd_cgi It is
17:39 juerd_cgi But I want a way to avoid that this is used by anyone
17:39 juerd_cgi While providing all users with access
17:39 juerd_cgi So I'm going to ssl-ify this first
17:39 juerd_cgi Which I've done only one time before
17:39 juerd_cgi Can take a while.
17:39 * Limbic_Region doesn't have a feather account
17:39 Limbic_Region you doing a self-signed certificate?
17:40 juerd_cgi No, CA-cert
17:40 svnbot6 r4489, iblech++ | t/ -- s/undef/undefine/ as appropriate
17:40 juerd_cgi And that feather account will be arranged if you send me an email requesting it
17:40 mrborisguy has quit IRC ("other work to do")
17:41 Limbic_Region right - but your CA-cert, is that going to be self-signed?
17:41 juerd_cgi It's going to be signed by cacert, I hope :)
17:41 Limbic_Region ok - but I won't actually need to log in right?  Since I couldn't do that from work anyway
17:41 juerd_cgi Otherwise I don't see the point.
17:41 juerd_cgi You would need to log in via ssl, http-auth
17:41 juerd_cgi You can visit gmail, so you can visit https
17:41 Limbic_Region oh - didn't realize cacert was an organization - since ca = certificate authority
17:42 Limbic_Region I normally self-sign my ca and then sign what is needed since I don't do business with anyone that doesn't trust me
17:42 Limbic_Region let me know when/if you get it set up and if you need anything from me (besides a acct request which I will send momentarily)
17:46 Enveigler has joined #perl6
17:46 svnbot6 r4490, iblech++ | t/ -- More s/undef/undefine/ (this time I used a grep to find undef(...)s
17:46 svnbot6 r4490, iblech++ | instead of relying on all-skipped tests as shown by the smokes).
17:46 svnbot6 r4491, iblech++ | ext/ -- s/undef/undefine/, too
17:46 svnbot6 r4491, iblech++ | util/perl6.vim -- Highlight undefine.
17:47 geoffb has joined #perl6
17:47 geoffb morning all
17:48 * geoffb mutters venomously about video drivers crashing his X session on a regular basis
17:49 Limbic_Region geoffb - you don't use named parameters as positional in tests you write do you?
17:49 * geoffb blinks
17:50 geoffb Ummm, I don't think I'm the one to talk to.
17:50 geoffb I've seen discussions about that, but I stayed out of them
17:50 Limbic_Region http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/​t/pugsbugs/named_2_positional.t
17:50 Limbic_Region well - when I first started writing tests I copy/pasted from an existing one
17:51 Limbic_Region so I may have done it (initially) without even knowing
17:51 Limbic_Region apparently there are going to be a number of tests that break once this bug is fixed
17:51 * Limbic_Region is just trying to make people aware
17:52 geoffb ah
17:52 geoffb Well, I don't think so.
17:52 geoffb My big hurting place is the fragility of use ...--perl5
17:53 meppl has joined #perl6
17:53 geoffb And unfortunately in trying to test for it, I just recurse into issues with Test.pm, and issues with use of normal P6 modules, and so on.
17:53 Enveigler1 has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
17:54 geoffb And the fact that for some annoying reason, code is not parsed the same interactively as from a file.
17:54 vel hi all
17:54 geoffb evalbot6, sure, I can understand that there's some sops to safety there, but pugs in interactive mode should be damn near identical to pugs working on a file.
17:55 geoffb </rant>
17:55 vel can someone help me with chomp in perl 6?
17:55 Limbic_Region vel - I believe it is still mostly unspecced
17:55 Limbic_Region what specifically do you need to know?
17:56 ninereasons autrijus, in http://perlcabal.org/~autri​jus/apoc/slide62b.html#end
17:56 ninereasons autrijus, do you mean "those are the only two things that work now" ?
17:56 ninereasons autrijus, or do you mean  "those are only two things that work now" ?
17:56 vel just simple and shortest way to get rid of \n and parse csv file
17:57 Limbic_Region vel - see http://svn.openfoundry.org/pu​gs/examples/games/hangman.p6
17:57 Limbic_Region search for chomp
17:57 Limbic_Region apply it to your situation
17:57 Limbic_Region holler if it doesn't work as expected
17:59 vel Limbic: oh, I did trust me. thanks for link...
17:59 geoffb I love finding cool new hotkeys by accident
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18:00 Limbic_Region vel - when in doubt, checking examples/ t/ and ext/ will usually leading to finding what you are looking for (if Pugs has it yet that is)
18:02 vel Lumbic: is that yoda speaking? ;)
18:02 svnbot6 r4492, ninereasons++ | Apocalypse_Now: fix a few typos
18:02 SamB has joined #perl6
18:03 Limbic_Region vel - it is me thinking and typing at the same time
18:03 Limbic_Region I am currently reading autrijus's slides
18:06 ninereasons autrijus, I think it might be clearer to say, "those are the only two programs in our examples/ that work now" (compile to Parrot)
18:06 ninereasons autrijus, if that's true to your meaning.
18:07 Limbic_Region I think that will come out in the presentation itself
18:07 Limbic_Region basically it is "don't think this stuff just magically works"
18:07 Limbic_Region "we have a very limited focused amount of functionality"
18:08 ninereasons Limbic_Region, yes, but "that's the only two things that works" doesn't work.
18:08 Limbic_Region "we are going to spend the next 10 days locked in a room with plenty of vices to knock the rest out"
18:08 Limbic_Region ninereasons - keep reading though
18:08 ninereasons Limbic_Region, purely a syntax issue here.
18:09 Limbic_Region I agree - the word "only" conveys an absoluteness that isn't accurate
18:11 ninereasons Limbic_Region, the number of "that's" and "two things" and "works" does not agree
18:12 ninereasons I think he means "those are the only two things that work, right now" .  doesn't he?
18:13 osfameron has joined #perl6
18:13 Limbic_Region "those are the only two programs in our examples/ that work now" # is what I believe is meant
18:13 Limbic_Region I honestly don't think anyone at the presentation will get it wrong though
18:13 gaal howdy
18:13 Limbic_Region salutations gaal
18:14 geoffb hi gaal
18:14 gaal L~R, remember our brief discussion of want nad caller?
18:14 Limbic_Region I saw your thread on the list
18:14 Limbic_Region I read $larry's response
18:14 Limbic_Region I was left wondering - WTF does that mean
18:14 gaal :)
18:15 gaal well, here's my interpretation
18:15 gaal caller(?$kind, +$skip, +$level)
18:16 gaal if you say :kind<Method>, you only look at methods
18:16 gaal then you go to the skipth Method
18:17 gaal there are other details to work out, but so much for selection.
18:17 Limbic_Region gaal - I doubt you are going to make me understand
18:17 Limbic_Region all that is important to me is that you (or someone else on the team) understands
18:17 gaal as for want, it's much simpler than the A said.
18:17 Limbic_Region which is tooooo bad
18:18 gaal just look at the S verison
18:19 Limbic_Region on list of things to do
18:19 gaal (btw, even without any elaborations, we need some reworking to fix pugs' want, because Ctx doesn't have, for example, the number of wanted return values.)
18:19 gaal (nor whether they are rw)
18:20 Limbic_Region right gaal
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18:20 Limbic_Region which is the very specific thing I was trying to get fixed
18:20 Limbic_Region so you could determine if you were in a void context or not
18:20 * Limbic_Region wanders off for a bit
18:21 gaal now, s06 doesn't specify the signature for want, so i suppose we can give it the same selection interface as caller, adn have want just delegate. that's the easy bit :)
18:21 gaal oh, L~R, that much you *can* do today.
18:21 gaal or should be able to, at least.
18:21 gaal data Cxt = CxtVoid | CxtItem !Type | CxtSlurpy !Type
18:23 gaal oh wait, you do get if we're in LValue context
18:23 gaal that much can be useful
18:23 gaal brb
18:23 vel has quit IRC (".")
18:26 * Limbic_Region waits for gaal to return
18:26 gaal back
18:27 wolverian Limbic_Region: yes, that's the problem - people use Test::ok and others incorrectly. we can either fix Test::ok and friends which is the easy route (change named to positional) or mass change the .t files
18:27 wolverian which will take some time probably
18:27 Limbic_Region http://pugscode.org/talks/apw/slide30c.html#end
18:27 Limbic_Region shouldn't that be >>xx<< there?
18:28 iblech Limbic_Region: Is >>{...}<< in any of the AES? Wasn't able to find it...
18:28 wolverian shouldn't that be »x, actually?
18:29 Limbic_Region I am not even going to attempt unicode with this client
18:29 gaal >>{...}<<       ? the vampire bat operator?
18:29 Limbic_Region iblech - if it isn't in one of the AESs - it has definately been discussed on the list
18:29 iblech Limbic_Region: Thanks, I'll google then
18:29 geoffb wolverian, personally I'm thinking the positional usage of Test subs is a good thing.  When you've got a lot of very similar tests in a test file, positional calling cuts the clutter.
18:30 wolverian geoffb: I agree.
18:30 gaal L~R, so, does want not work at all for you?
18:30 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
18:30 Limbic_Region gaal - want as a number and/or want.count
18:31 gaal oh, well that you'll have to wait a bit for ;-)
18:31 Limbic_Region so how else would you currently check for void context?
18:31 gaal it returns show Ctx
18:31 gaal which should say "void".
18:32 gaal sorry, not show Ctx
18:32 gaal just the string "Void"
18:32 gaal see Pugs/AST/Internals.hs:1010 ish
18:32 Limbic_Region you mean want returns show Ctx
18:32 Limbic_Region let me try something then
18:33 gaal more or less
18:33 Limbic_Region ok - then your understanding and my example are in disagreement
18:33 gaal hmmm, except that it doesn't work :)
18:34 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
18:34 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:34 gaal ./pugs -e sub x { say want } x();
18:34 Limbic_Region right
18:34 gaal says "List (Any)"
18:34 gaal that's a bug then.
18:34 gaal :)
18:34 Limbic_Region right - http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=464377 is where I first found out
18:34 Limbic_Region that's the second bug tall_man has uncovered
18:35 Limbic_Region or rather - that was the first
18:35 Limbic_Region the named parameters being morphed to position was the second
18:35 gaal it oughta return an object that stringifies to "Void" in that case.
18:35 Limbic_Region gaal - there are tests for want already though
18:35 Limbic_Region so I didn't see where writing a new one was helping?
18:36 gaal okay; i've however been working on caller, which despite what A06 says, isn't really much like want.
18:36 gaal only the selection stuff might be
18:36 gaal and anyway caller is used as a primitive for want
18:37 gaal sooooo... we need tests for caller ;-)
18:37 gaal likely, you could from pure perl code call caller, use the .sub result and query that to get all the info you could have gotten from want.
18:38 gaal though that bit isn't 100% certain yet.
18:38 vcv- has joined #perl6
18:39 Aankh|Clone Hrm.
18:39 Aankh|Clone One-line C<class { ... }> declarations parse, but multi-line ones don't?
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18:39 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
18:41 Limbic_Region gaal - actually, looking at t/builtins/want.t  all the want tests that are using want() are todo
18:42 Aankhen`` Apparently multi-line class declarations do parse.  Ignore my previous statement.
18:43 pdcawley ?eval class Array { method bibble { 42 } }; my @foo = (); @foo.bibble
18:44 evalbot6 42
18:44 pdcawley Hurrah!
18:44 pdcawley ?eval [].bibble
18:44 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bibble"
18:45 pdcawley ?eval class Array { method bibble { 42 } }; [].bibble
18:45 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bibble"
18:45 wolverian ?eval ref []
18:45 evalbot6 ::Array
18:46 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }
18:46 evalbot6 undef
18:46 wolverian hmm. do references not dispatch automatically yet?
18:46 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }; [].bibble
18:46 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bibble"
18:46 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }; <a b c d e>.bibble
18:46 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bibble"
18:46 Aankhen`` Bah.
18:46 pdcawley ?eval my @foo = (); ref @foo
18:46 evalbot6 ::Array
18:46 pdcawley Hmm... time to write a test.
18:46 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }; my @foo = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5); @foo.bibble();
18:46 Limbic_Region ?eval method ::Array { method bibble { 42 } }; [].bibble;
18:46 evalbot6 42
18:46 wolverian pdcawley++
18:46 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&method"
18:47 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }; my @foo = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5); @foo.bibble();
18:47 evalbot6 42
18:47 Aankhen`` That works.
18:47 wolverian Limbic_Region: heh, method ::Array?
18:47 pdcawley Unless someone else wants to -- I'm slightly tied up.
18:47 Limbic_Region wolverian - why not
18:47 Aankhen`` ?eval method *Array::bibble () { 42 }; my $foo = (1, 2, 3, 4, 5); $foo.bibble();
18:47 evalbot6 42
18:47 * Limbic_Region WAS being silly
18:47 Aankhen`` Kewl.
18:47 pdcawley Is ::Foo a symbol constructor then?
18:47 wolverian pdcawley: it's a type.
18:47 pdcawley ?eval ref ::Array
18:47 evalbot6 ::Class
18:48 pdcawley ?eval ref ::Bibblyplop
18:48 evalbot6 ::Type
18:48 wolverian see. :)
18:48 pdcawley Heh.
18:48 integral hmm, doesn't that mean I can get silent breakage?
18:48 pdcawley Is there a 'symbol' type? I've got quite attached to them from playing with Smalltalk/Ruby
18:48 wolverian what sort of?
18:48 integral If I use ::Foo as a type variable, but then some module I load, loads a ::Foo
18:48 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { submethod BUILD ($self: ) { $self.baz = "quux"; say $self.baz; } method bar () { say ::?CLASS.new(); } } my $foo = Foo.new(); Foo.bar();
18:48 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
18:49 gaal you can get anything you want in alice's restaurant, integral.
18:49 pdcawley Allison's restaurant surely?
18:49 gaal :)
18:49 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { submethod BUILD ($self: ) { $self.baz = "quux"; say $self.baz; }; method bar () { say ::?CLASS.new(); } }; my $foo = Foo.new(); Foo.bar();
18:49 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
18:49 integral hmm!
18:49 Aankhen`` Bleh.
18:50 pdcawley Do you need a ; between } and }?
18:50 wolverian no.
18:50 Aankhen`` I dunno.
18:50 Aankhen`` I would have thought not.
18:50 * Aankhen`` reduces the size.
18:50 pdcawley And you can't 'say' anything with evalbot.
18:50 Aankhen`` Ah, right.
18:51 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { method bar () { ::?CLASS.new() } }; Foo.bar();
18:51 corneli Was the zip(@a => 2, @b => 1) changed? is it only zip(@a;@b;...) now?
18:51 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
18:51 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { method bar () { Foo.new() } }; Foo.bar();
18:51 evalbot6 {obj:Foo}
18:51 Aankhen`` Darn.
18:51 Aankhen`` ::?CLASS doesn't work.
18:51 * Aankhen`` goes to check that his syntax is correct.
18:51 pdcawley It's $?CLASS isn't it?
18:52 Limbic_Region http://pugscode.org/talks/apw/slide40b.html#end
18:52 Limbic_Region s/ot/of/
18:52 pdcawley ?eval class Foo { method wibble { $?CLASS } }; Foo.new.wibble
18:52 evalbot6 \::Foo
18:52 pdcawley Seems so.
18:52 wolverian hmm, why is it $?CLASS and not ::?CLASS?
18:52 pdcawley Because it's variable like.
18:53 Aankhen`` I guess S12 is outdated then: (The current class may always be named as ::?CLASS even in anonymous classes or roles.)
18:53 pdcawley ?eval class Foo is Array { }; class Array { method bibble { $?CLASS }}; Foo.new.bibble
18:53 iblech wolverian: IIRC both ways are correct: $?CLASS is a Class object as a scalar variable, while ::?CLASS is a Class object as package name
18:53 evalbot6 \::Array
18:53 wolverian iblech: right.
18:54 gaal ?eval ref Array
18:54 evalbot6 ::Class
18:54 pdcawley ?eval class Foo is Array { }; class Array { method bibble { $?CLASS }}; Foo.new.class
18:54 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&class"
18:54 pdcawley ?eval class Foo is Array { }; class Array { method bibble { $?CLASS }}; Foo.new
18:54 evalbot6 {obj:Foo}
18:54 pdcawley ?eval class Foo is Array { }; class Array { method bibble { $?CLASS }}; ref Foo.new
18:54 evalbot6 ::Foo
18:54 Aankhen`` iblech >> So ::?CLASS hasn't been implemented?
18:54 iblech Yep.
18:54 Aankhen`` OK.
18:55 gaal wait, if i write a func that accepts a class as an arg -- which serendipitously I AM JUST DOING, does hte signature have "::Class $kind" rather than "Class $kind"?
18:55 pdcawley Class $kind
18:56 wolverian gaal: Class is pretty certainly predeclared in Perl 6
18:56 pdcawley But you'd call thing(::Whatever)
18:56 gaal so why
18:56 gaal ?eval Array
18:56 evalbot6 \{obj:Class}
18:56 gaal oops
18:56 gaal ?eval ref Array
18:56 evalbot6 ::Class
18:56 gaal with the :: ?
18:56 pdcawley Easier to read.
18:57 gaal heh
18:57 gaal ok
18:57 pdcawley You *know* it's atype.
18:57 pdcawley Same as why there's still Sigils.
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19:00 svnbot6 r4493, rootmj++ | docs/talks/Apocalypse_Now.spork
19:00 svnbot6 r4493, rootmj++ | @h{'!'} @h.method -> %h{'!'} %h.method
19:00 pdcawley ?eval sub foo { $?CALLER_CONTINUATION } ; foo
19:00 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?CALLER_CONTINUATION"
19:00 pdcawley Not implemented yet then. Bah.
19:00 iblech It's &?CALLER_CONTINUATION
19:00 iblech But it seems to have some bugs
19:01 pdcawley ?eval sub foo { &?CALLER_CONTINUATION } ; foo
19:01 evalbot6 \sub {...}
19:01 pdcawley Full continuation?
19:03 iblech Dunno
19:04 pdcawley Right, I'll have a play.
19:05 wolverian are there other kinds of continuatinos?
19:05 wolverian s,no,on,
19:05 pdcawley wolverian: There's it's poor relation, the 'escape continuation' which isn't really a continuation because you can only use it once.
19:06 pdcawley Personally, I prefer to think of them as chocolate teapots, but I'm picky like that.
19:08 wolverian chocolate teapots. heh.
19:08 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
19:10 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
19:10 nothingmuch evening
19:14 geoffb g'day
19:14 pdcawley Arg, can't remember the rules for slurpiness in signatures. *@foo slurps the rest of the args right?
19:14 Aankh|Clone Yes, pdcawley.
19:18 * SamB wonders why in the world you would want to use the same continuation twice
19:19 svnbot6 r4494, iblech++ | t/operators/repeat.t -- unTODO a now suceeding :todo<bug> test.
19:19 svnbot6 r4495, Aankhen++ | * fixed a few parsing problems in HTTP::Message.
19:19 pdcawley SamB: All sorts of reasons.
19:19 Aankh|Clone has quit IRC ("This annoys me just as much as it annoys you [Time wasted online: 10mins 36secs]")
19:19 pdcawley I'm writing some example code now.
19:20 SamB all sorts of MUTABLE STATE THAT MAKES YOUR HEAD EXPLODE reasons?
19:20 * integral thinks using the same subcontinuation twice is more useful more often
19:20 svnbot6 r4496, iblech++ | Implemented ::?CLASS, ::?ROLE (currently same as ::?CLASS), and ::?PACKAGE.
19:20 svnbot6 r4496, iblech++ | Aankhen``++
19:20 pdcawley Writing it, and understanding how it works, can make your head explode.
19:20 pdcawley However, the kind of things you can do with full continuations can be a delight to *use*.
19:21 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
19:22 gaal anyone remember which yapc movie it was that had the Meta joke?
19:23 rjbs not one I've seen, I think.
19:24 gaal oh
19:24 gaal oscon movie :)
19:24 gaal http://www.perl.org/oscon/2003/movies/truth/
19:26 gander has joined #perl6
19:26 awwaiid yeah, reuseable continuatiosn rock :)
19:28 pdcawley ?eval my $try = -> *@choices { if 1 { 10 } }
19:28 evalbot6 \sub {...}
19:28 pdcawley ?eval my $try = -> *@choices { if 1 { 10 } }; $try()
19:28 evalbot6 10
19:29 Odin- has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
19:30 Odin- has joined #perl6
19:30 * pdcawley boggles. How do I paste an extended lump of code in here?
19:30 wolverian see /topic
19:31 gaal perlbot nopaste
19:31 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
19:32 pdcawley Ta.
19:33 pasteling "pdcawley" at 217.146.110.1 pasted "Weird syntax error" (35 lines, 724B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10895
19:34 pdcawley HTF can it not be expecting an 'i' after the opening brace of a code block?
19:34 gaal that's just the parser not being suffiiently friendly.
19:34 gaal the error is deeper in.
19:35 gaal could it be you want &give_up := ?
19:35 Lopo has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
19:36 Limbic_Region oh yeah - parser errors are a PITA to debug
19:36 pdcawley Wow. Now it's *really* breaking.
19:37 pdcawley I could be wrong, but I *think* it's compiling now. But oh *my* is it throwing a spectacular error.
19:38 justatheory has joined #perl6
19:38 Lopo has joined #perl6
19:38 pasteling "pdcawley" at 217.146.110.1 pasted "Huge syntax error" (4 lines, 7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10897
19:39 gaal that's a run time error
19:39 pdcawley Indeedly.
19:39 gaal not a syntax error :)
19:40 iblech It seems you can't re-bind &subs.
19:41 pdcawley And I still need 'sub' before sub blocks.
19:41 Limbic_Region but not all sub blocks
19:42 pdcawley And when in doubt, stick a ; on the end.
19:42 Limbic_Region it is weird but sometimes omitting it works and sometimes it doesn't
19:42 pdcawley Ah. Now I'm just getting a simple 'program failed' at... um... everywhere.
19:43 pdcawley Ah. No, I understand that.
19:43 pdcawley Seems &?CALLER_CONTINUATION doesn't work...
19:43 pdcawley But we probably knew that.
19:45 * pdcawley notes that the power of non-deterministic programming *still* blows his mind.
19:45 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:47 pdcawley Hmm... thinking about this, I might be able to write 'choose' *without* needing a 'proper' continuation -- might be able to get away with 'return' in a pointy block.
19:49 iblech That doesn't work yet -- t/pugsbugs/return_in_anonymous_subs.t still fails
19:50 pdcawley Shame...
19:50 pdcawley Wouldn't hurt to have an (in)sanity check to see if what I'm thinking of should actually work...
19:50 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
19:52 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
19:53 Aankhen`` Hmm.
19:54 * Aankhen`` ponders HTTP::Message as a class versus HTTP::Message as a role.
19:54 pasteling "pdcawley" at 217.146.110.1 pasted "Continuationless ND programming" (16 lines, 377B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10898
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20:05 svnbot6 r4497, iblech++ | Make ::("?CLASS") etc. work (symbolic dereferentiation for type vars).
20:06 Aankhen`` Does a plain ::?CLASS work?
20:07 iblech Yep, I implemented some minutes ago :)
20:07 iblech pdcawley: Does this example work? Should it be checked in to example/?
20:07 pdcawley I think it *should* work.
20:08 pdcawley But I'm not sure Larry does. might have to implement it with a continuation -- when they work.
20:08 Aankhen`` iblech++ # ::?CLASS =)
20:09 iblech Aankhen``++ # asking for it :)
20:09 pdcawley From things Larry's said on p6l it sounds like 'pointy block return' should uses an escape continuation. So that code probably shouldn't work.
20:10 pdcawley The continuation version *should* work though.
20:10 pasteling "pdcawley" at 217.146.110.1 pasted "Continuationful ND programming" (19 lines, 412B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10900
20:11 pdcawley That should work, if 'sub callcc (Code &block) { &block(&?CALLER_CONTINUATION) }' works.
20:13 pdcawley Oh. Fuck. Just worked out why it's failing.
20:13 pdcawley Breaking differently now...
20:16 gaal um, how do i "return;" in p6?
20:16 svnbot6 r4498, iblech++ | t/var/symbolic_deref.t -- Tests for ::("...").
20:16 gaal and not from haskell? :)
20:16 gaal will return () work?
20:17 dkf has joined #perl6
20:17 iblech ?eval my $counter; sub { $counter++; return; $counter++ }; $counter
20:17 evalbot6 \undef
20:18 iblech Hrm
20:18 iblech Err
20:18 iblech ?eval my $counter; sub { $counter++; return; $counter++ }(); $counter
20:18 evalbot6 \1
20:18 iblech Seems to work :)
20:18 gaal huh? i thought "return;" wasa  syntax error now?
20:18 Limbic_Region gaal - when?
20:18 gaal well, it must have been just unimplemented when i had asked :)
20:19 gaal oh, but crap, i'm in prelude and i *can't* return
20:19 gaal shucks.
20:19 Limbic_Region ?eval my $counter; sub { $count = 3; return; $counter = 42; }.(); $counter;
20:19 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$count"
20:19 Limbic_Region heh
20:19 Limbic_Region ?eval my $count; sub { $count = 3; return; $counter = 42; }.(); $counter;
20:19 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$counter"
20:19 Limbic_Region grrr
20:19 pdcawley s/counter/count
20:19 Limbic_Region ?eval my $count; sub { $count = 3; return; $count = 42; }.(); $count;
20:19 evalbot6 \3
20:19 iblech gaal: Use if(return_condition) {} else {...rest of code...}?
20:20 pdcawley Hang on, '\3'?
20:20 Limbic_Region gaal - AFAIK, the return problem was fixed way early on in Pugs development
20:20 Limbic_Region pdcawley - I don't know why the \
20:20 gaal must have asked a long time ago then :)
20:20 pdcawley ?eval 3
20:20 evalbot6 3
20:20 gaal iblech - no, because it want to retrun false
20:20 gaal undef in scalar context
20:20 gaal () in list context
20:20 * pdcawley blinks.
20:21 gaal *and i can't use want* :)
20:21 Limbic_Region pdcawley - because it is tied to a variable?
20:21 Limbic_Region ?eval "foo"
20:21 evalbot6 'foo'
20:21 gaal meh, i'll just write this in haskell. it's easier there.(!)
20:21 iblech :)
20:21 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo = 'foo'; $foo;
20:21 evalbot6 \'foo'
20:21 Limbic_Region yep
20:21 pdcawley ?eval my $foo = 3
20:21 evalbot6 \3
20:22 Limbic_Region tied to a lexical even
20:22 Limbic_Region must be how evalbot works under the covers
20:22 pdcawley ?eval our $foo = 3
20:22 evalbot6 \3
20:22 Limbic_Region ok - so maybe it is how it gets passed up from p6 to Haskell out to the screen
20:22 * Limbic_Region notices there are no more straws to grasp and calls it a night
20:23 SamB what is ()? it looks like nil!
20:23 iblech evalhelper.p5 uses eval($code).perl to display the results
20:23 * Limbic_Region heads homewards
20:23 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:25 juerd_cgi has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
20:26 Aankhen`` ?eval 3.perl
20:26 evalbot6 '3'
20:26 svnbot6 r4499, iblech++ | t/oo/magical_vars.t -- Added tests for ::?CLASS and ::?ROLE.
20:26 Aankhen`` ?eval 3.perl.perl
20:26 evalbot6 '\'3\''
20:26 Aankhen`` ?eval [].perl
20:26 evalbot6 '[]'
20:27 Aankhen`` ?eval [].perl.per
20:27 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&per"
20:27 Aankhen`` ?eval [].perl.perl
20:27 evalbot6 '\'[]\''
20:27 Aankhen`` Heh, neat.
20:28 gaal what's the haskell V type for Class? VType?
20:29 gaal the *pugs* type that is
20:31 gaal or is it a VObject that happens to be a class?
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20:39 svnbot6 r4500, iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser -- Parse $::! etc., too.
20:39 svnbot6 r4500, iblech++ | * t/var/symbolic_deref.t -- Tests for this and $::("!").
20:40 Aankhen`` iblech, I was wondering -- how old are you?
20:40 iblech 16
20:40 Aankhen`` Ah.
20:40 Aankhen`` Where you from?
20:40 iblech Germany, Bavaria, Augsburg
20:40 Aankhen`` Ohh.
20:42 iblech Ok, gonna sleep, school tomorrow
20:42 iblech Night :)
20:42 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:43 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
20:44 Aankhen`` I think my computer is trying to tell me to get off.
20:45 Odin- has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
20:45 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:45 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("DOS never says "EXCELLENT command or filename" [Time wasted online: 55mins 8secs]")
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20:46 shaine if ~ is concat now, whats ones complement?
20:47 sbkhh is now known as Odin-
20:48 arcady I think +~
20:48 shaine thank you
20:48 justathe1ry has joined #perl6
20:49 arcady actually, no
20:49 gaal ?eval +~0
20:49 evalbot6 0.0
20:49 gaal nope :)
20:49 coaster ~^
20:49 gaal ?eval ~^0
20:49 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "^" expecting term
20:49 gaal beh, quoting borkage.
20:49 arcady ?eval +^ 0
20:49 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "^" expecting term
20:49 arcady oh right
20:50 gaal ~^ can't be right, ~-ops are stringy.
20:50 coaster i got that from a03
20:50 coaster This is now the bitwise XOR operator. Recall that unary ~ (1's complement) is simply an XOR with a value containing all 1 bits.
20:50 coaster [Update: ~ is now string concatenation. Bitwise XOR is +^ or ~^ depending on whether your doing numeric xor or stringwise.]
20:51 gaal well you aren't doing stringwise xor here! :)
20:51 shaine ah crap, i gotta go
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20:54 Khisanth hmm got parrot
20:56 gaal i need a haskell function that's prolly in the prelude, but i don't know its name:
20:56 gaal mkInf :: a -> [a]
20:57 integral that is in the prelude, can't remember the name though :-/
20:57 gaal mkInf x = x : mkInf x
20:57 gaal ah, there's 'iterate'
20:58 gaal which i can use with 'id'
20:58 integral hmm, I thought there was something specific
20:58 gaal repeat!!
20:58 gaal zvon.org++
20:58 integral ah, repeat :-)
20:58 gaal thanks :)
20:58 integral http://www.cs.uu.nl/~afie/​haskell/tourofprelude.html # Tour of the Haskell Prelude,  is rather useful
20:59 gaal http://www.zvon.org/other/has​kell/Outputprelude/index.html has a great "related" field :)
21:00 gaal caller becomes so beautiful
21:00 gaal formatFrame $ last $ take skip $ repeat fetchCaller
21:00 gaal where fetchCaller = monadic black magic :)
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21:00 gaal sorry, forgot:
21:00 integral oh, you want replicate (replicate n x = take n $ repeat x)
21:01 Juerd So, suppose E is the euro sign, does Efoo = $foo automatically convert? ;)
21:01 integral or maybe !! ?
21:01 gaal formatFrame $ last $ take skip $ filter wanted $ repeat fetchCaller
21:01 gaal actually this may not work, come to thing of it
21:02 integral formatFrame $ (filter wanted $ repeat fetchCaller) !! skip  -- probably with a off-by-one error
21:02 gaal because this is inside a weird monad thingie
21:02 integral ah, you need a M variant of these things
21:02 gaal i take care of the off by one
21:02 gaal before that
21:03 gaal anyway, the problem is that i wanted fetchCaller to do local (const $ envCaller env) stuff
21:04 integral hmm, well there's things like mapM, maybe there's a repeatM
21:04 xerox integral, there indeed is.
21:04 gaal and: i don't want to replicate, because i need to actually generate more than i take, because i filter.
21:04 xerox integral, I ran a bot on #haskell while lambdabot is on vacation, if you need it :)
21:05 gaal (what i forgot the first time i gave the function)
21:05 integral oh, neato xerox++ :-)
21:05 gaal xerox: clues on whether that would work as i want it to with Reader?
21:06 xerox gaal, sorry I was not reading all the discussion :)
21:06 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "current op1Caller impl" (21 lines, 878B) at http://sial.org/pbot/10902
21:07 gaal i'm adding smarts to this function, to take some filtering responsibility upon itself
21:07 gaal so i wanted to refactor the bits that do the recursion and upstacking out of the main code
21:08 gaal basically i want a fetchCaller local function that gives me the next stack frame every time it's called.
21:09 gaal oh, now i realized there's the additional complication of maybe running ouf of call stack :)
21:09 gaal i can't just take as much as i like, the generator isn't really infinite.
21:09 gaal boo, it was elegant for a moment there. :)
21:09 xerox :)
21:10 gaal no doubt i can have fetchCaller fail when it does run out of stack though?
21:11 gaal thatwould be nice.
21:17 gaal GHC / typical haskell optimization question:
21:18 gaal say i define a local function to be if (x) then id else ...complex func....
21:18 gaal where x is a variable of the main function
21:18 _metaperl has joined #perl6
21:18 gaal will the local function be efficient when x is True?
21:19 _metaperl what does ++before the @ sign do here:
21:19 gaal will its applications be nicely optimized away that is?
21:19 _metaperl sub NestedLoop (++@loop, +$OnlyWhen, +$code) returns Ref {
21:19 _metaperl what does "++@loop" mean?
21:19 gaal i think it means mandatory named arg
21:19 _metaperl in fact, that does +$OnlyWhen mean also
21:19 _metaperl the "+" in front of $OnlyWhen
21:19 gaal i'm sure that means optional named arg :)
21:20 gaal so you can call NestedLoop :loop<a b c> :OnlyWhen<x>
21:20 gaal but not NestedLoop()
21:21 _metaperl that's a serious hijacking on the autoincrement operator
21:22 gaal i think it's not finally blessed, but larry's considering it.
21:22 gaal it's mentioned in s06 i think.
21:22 gaal as an option.
21:22 _metaperl when do you think p6 is going live?
21:23 gaal it already does if you use iblech++ 's cd :)
21:23 pjcj what does that mean?
21:24 _metaperl pjcj: you mean "going live" ?
21:24 pjcj yes
21:24 _metaperl I mean when will it "ship"
21:24 _metaperl when will it be the main line stable perl
21:25 q[pdcawley] Some time.
21:25 _metaperl when features are now added to p6 and p5 is just for maintenance
21:25 gaal so, is Class an object inside pugs?
21:25 gaal if i have sub foo(Class $x)
21:25 gaal what's the haskell type of $x?
21:25 wolverian _metaperl: ++ is an unofficial '+$foo is required' prefix
21:25 gaal sorry to repeat my Q from before, i'm needing this.
21:26 gander has left "Leaving"
21:26 wolverian right, gaal told you that already. sorry to repeat. :)
21:27 gaal aha! looking up op1 "ref" proved useful :-)
21:28 migo__ has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:28 xerox Goodnight folks :)
21:30 pjcj _metaperl: I suspect those are three different times:  1. depends what you mean by "ship"  2. 3 to 8 years?  3.  when 5.10 is releaseed?
21:37 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:38 clkao pjcj!
21:40 pjcj clkao!
21:41 clkao so what about the uncoverable mark we discussed yesterday
21:43 pjcj yes - what exactly is it that you need?
21:44 clkao i want magic comments
21:45 pjcj ah - is that preferable to an external file for you too?
21:45 clkao yes. because if you change the relevant statement you will have to update the file in a painful way i presume
21:46 clkao i mean, it should be supported that way as it's obvious, people who don't like can of course establish their own policy to use external file
21:46 pjcj if you change the statement itself, yes
21:47 limbicLR has joined #perl6
21:47 pjcj ok - seems that most people want comments, so I had better support that
21:47 clkao ))
21:47 clkao :))
21:47 clkao now, plan for release!
21:47 * limbicLR wonders if he can now type a + and not have it be eaten
21:47 limbicLR cool
21:47 limbicLR has quit IRC (Client Quit)
21:48 Limbic_Region Juerd++
21:51 gaal http://pugscode.org/talks/apw/slide12d.html
21:51 gaal didn't autrijus mean "%h" ?
21:53 wilx` Heh, is it only mine Firefox that merges all the bullets from 1. to 4. into one line?
21:53 wilx` On that page?
21:53 gaal yes. :-p
21:55 justathe1ry has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:56 sapp3r has joined #perl6
22:03 kelan would anyone mind helping me understand a section of chapter 6 of the harrorth saga?
22:04 sapp3r msg /nickserv register sapp3r fritjof
22:04 * gaal hasn't read it yet
22:05 gaal sapp3r: now sounds like a good time to change your password :)
22:05 sapp3r already have :)
22:05 sapp3r dumb typo, sorry for interuption.
22:05 kelan when does the NA hackathon happen?
22:05 kelan i think some good things will come out of that
22:06 gaal dunno, but it's sure to be on the site
22:06 gaal google?
22:06 kelan i could probably look it up on perlmonks faster. heh
22:06 kelan it was in the announcement section
22:06 wilx` Hmm.
22:07 wilx` Does Perl6 support multiple parents inheritance?
22:07 kelan i'd be surprised if it didn't
22:07 kelan but i don't know for sure
22:08 wilx` I'm just wondering because I just came over #39 of the presentation...
22:09 kelan from S12: Perl 6 supports multiple inheritance, anonymous classes, and autoboxing.
22:10 gaal durn, there is no repeatM. i'm sure this is trivial.. any lambdaheads still about?
22:11 gaal repeatM :: Monad m => a -> m [a]
22:11 kelan hmm
22:11 wilx` Huh.
22:11 gaal repearM x = do return x : repeatM x
22:11 gaal ?
22:11 wilx` repeatM = return $ repeat
22:12 wilx` Maybe...
22:12 kelan how about: map (\x -> return x) repeat x
22:12 kelan er
22:12 kelan how about: map (\x -> return x) repeat y
22:12 kelan to be clearer
22:12 gaal dunno, can you do that? :)
22:13 kelan probably, but i think the type from mine would be `[m a]` instead of `m [a]`
22:13 gaal return $ repeat is really cute
22:13 wilx` is now known as wilx
22:13 gaal if it works
22:13 gaal point-free and all.
22:14 kelan actually mine could just be `map return`, but again, wrong type
22:15 kelan hugs says `return . repeat` is type `Monad a => b -> a [b]`
22:15 kelan so that looks like what you want
22:15 gaal uhhhh another lame question, to do this ad-hackishly,
22:15 gaal oh wait, i can just inline that.
22:15 gaal heh heh heh.
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22:19 wilx Wheeee!!
22:19 wilx That presentation is long even for me as reader.
22:20 wilx And I have been doing like a click every two seconds :)
22:20 gaal me too, the build was finished when i got to 20b and then the compiler errors started getting my attention. :)
22:20 knotty has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:21 gaal but up till then my though about this talk was this:
22:21 gaal wow, to be there without being involved in pugs must be mind blowing
22:21 gaal i wish i were there like that!
22:21 gaal but then i thought
22:21 gaal to be involved in pugs is way more mind blowing :)
22:22 gaal though i still wish i were there!
22:22 wilx :)
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22:27 gaal hey, this is weird. the primDecl for op1 "ref" says it returns Str
22:27 gaal but its definition looks like it returns a list of VType ?
22:27 gaal alternatively: what's "Type"? somewhere it said data Int | Str, but what does that mean? how can a type be an int?
22:27 gaal ...and where are all the user defined classes etc.?
22:28 kelan wow poe is getting ported already?
22:28 gaal iblech++ # the mad porter
22:29 kelan i would have thought poe would be held off until event semantics have been spec'ed
22:29 kelan poe might not even really be needed since p6 will have an event loop
22:30 integral POE isn't just an event loop really.   It's provides it's own object system for example
22:30 mugwump and continuations etc
22:30 * mugwump declares an apostrophe jihad on integral
22:30 integral POE::Session::YieldCC does continuations for perl5 POE leakily
22:31 integral err, they do that all by themselve's hone'st!
22:33 sapp3r has quit IRC ("Xirc v0.9.8 - MacOSX")
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22:35 gaal so, i'm getting the tireds. should i march on past 'em and hack, or sleep and go see the antonioni+wenders film tomorrow morning?
22:36 gaal problem is that in cases like these i invariably look to a role model and ask, what would my cat do?
22:36 gaal and that's sortof a sold trial when *sleep* is the case.
22:38 gaal also, i just got my second spam for today from a certain local spammer. ordinarily this would piss me off, but a week ago a new law was passed here that awards people about $200 damages per unsolicited message. maybe i should sue, if  just to make them hurt?
22:38 osfameron has joined #perl6
22:42 * gaal sleeps &
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22:58 clkao seen autrijus
22:58 jabbot clkao: autrijus was seen 10 hours 16 minutes 59 seconds ago
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