IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-11

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04:48		geoffb	OK, there's something just disturbing about no traffic on this channel for hours on end.
04:49		autrijus_	indeed.
04:49		geoffb	One comment from clkao in the last 7+ hours
04:49		* autrijus_	just woke up
04:49		geoffb	Didn't expect you to be around, autrijus_ !
04:49		geoffb	Ah, early there then.
04:49		autrijus_	quite. before 7am
04:50		geoffb	Get to see the dawn today?
04:50		autrijus_	no, not a chance :)
04:50		autrijus_	although it's alraedy daylight saving time
04:50			autrijus_ is now known as autrijus
04:51		autrijus	but anyway. today's the hard deadline of hw2005
04:51		autrijus	which means I better write down the pugs->parrot compilation strategy we discussed yesterday
04:52		geoffb	So earlier this week (before family came to visit), I went to write some tests for pugs . . . but I couldn't get them to work because of Test limitations . . . and I couldn't work around those because of pugs bugs . . . and recurse.
04:52		geoffb	So I was wondering -- does pugs still need exhaustive tests of the "simple stuff", like space handling in expressions and compliance with Perl 6 invariances, and so on?
04:52		autrijus	which Test limitations?
04:53		autrijus	yes, definitely so
04:53		geoffb	As I recall, I wanted fails_ok to take a string, or somesuch . . . don't recall for sure.
04:53		geoffb	I figured rather than writing tests for bleeding edge stuff, perhaps my time would be better spent fleshing out the basic test core.
04:54		autrijus	yes.
04:54		autrijus	that'd be much appreciated.
04:55		geoffb	OK, after family leaves (Sunday), I'll try to scrape together my tuits in that direction.
04:56		autrijus	danke.
04:56		geoffb	de rien
04:57		geoffb	good luck with hw2005, it's pretty good so far.
04:58		autrijus	glad to hear that. :))
05:02		Khisanth	hrm
05:02		autrijus	hey Khisanth
05:02		autrijus	I'll brb -- shower &
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05:05		geoffb	So the rumors of autrijus ircing in the shower appear to be false . . . .
05:05		geoffb	or maybe he just lurks, with the laptop right outside the curtain.
05:09		autrijus	yup.
05:09		autrijus	that's usually the case.
05:09		autrijus	to avoid damaging the keyboard I usually type with a toothbrush or so.
05:10		geoffb	LOL
05:10		crysflame	oof
05:10		crysflame	chopsticks are great for that i hear
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05:11		autrijus	hey lightstep, crysflame.
05:11		lightstep	hoy
05:14		geoffb	autrijus, a couple days ago I managed to produce a few lines that would work correctly if saved to a file, but would error if pasted into pugs interactive mode.  Is there a difference between the parsing in those two cases?  If so, why?
05:15		geoffb	For reference, the four lines are:
05:15		geoffb	#!/usr/bin/pugs
05:15		geoffb	use File::Basename--perl5;
05:15		geoffb	our &basename := File::Basename.can('basename');
05:15		geoffb	say basename('/this/is/a.test');
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05:21		autrijus	the interactive mode's idea of continuity between lines is flawed.
05:22		autrijus	in this case I think it's the class cache -- try ::File::Basename.can('basename'); ?
05:22		autrijus	(btw, nice use of .can)
05:22		autrijus	can you help updating examples/perl5/cpan-upload.p6 to reflect this infinitely better style? :)
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05:26		geoffb	1) ah.  2) will try.  3) thanks, you suggested it. :-)  4) Will do.
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05:28		geoffb	::File::Basename.can('basename') no workie.
05:28		geoffb	(either in a file, or in interactive mode)
05:33		geoffb	What is this workaround for:
05:33		geoffb	my &POST := eval_perl5 'sub { my $url = shift; &HTTP::Request::Common::POST($url, {@_}) }';
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05:34		geoffb	Why not just call POST with ($url, $hashref) directly?
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05:41		geoffb	OK, is it supposed to be the case that when you dereference an array ref with {'string'}, it treats the array as a hash with alternating odd and even being key and value?
05:41		geoffb	If not, cpan-upload.p6 is just wrong
05:42		geoffb	er, at line 258
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05:49		geoffb	OK, assuming I'm right, and just committing what I think was meant by the screwy lines in cpan-upload.p6
05:49		svnbot6	r4524, geoffb++ | cpan-upload.p6: clean up perl5 import workaround syntax; clean up ugliness with hashref arg to POST
05:49		geoffb	afk
05:49		autrijus	you're right. thanks :)
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05:58		gaal	please review: Prelude bypass strategy
05:58		gaal	sometimes we want to load pugs faster, bypassing the Prelude. (or sometimes in development we break the prelude and want to wait before fixing it)
05:58		gaal	to tell pugs not to call initPrelude, set PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE in the environment to a true value.
05:58		gaal	to load an alternate Prelude, do that and specify -MPrelude on the command line, it will be loaded like a regular module via @*INC
05:59		gaal	what think?
05:59		autrijus	worksforme.
05:59		gaal	btw, initPrelude is confused about Pos when the prelude breaks, citing ludicrous coordinates
06:00		gaal	good, i'll add that then
06:00		gaal	though i wonder if it isn't getting good time to organize all our env vars together :)
06:02		autrijus	we can start documenting it at least
06:02		autrijus	in the form of pugsrun.pod and friends
06:02		autrijus	or is it pugs::run?
06:03		gaal	many of them are only for development now (controllign smoke tests, there are at least three or four)
06:04		autrijus	sure, but getting it documented is still nice
06:04		gaal	okay, will start that.
06:05		autrijus	'kay. I think lib/pugs/run.pod is an okay place
06:05		autrijus	better suggestions welcome too
06:05		gaal	i'll start there. svn++; # 'mv'
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06:09		gaal	ooh, the hash interface from haskell is... interesting :)
06:10		gaal	you generate a getter per hash, right?
06:13		geoffb	bak
06:13		autrijus	gaal: a getter per hash?
06:14		autrijus	each hash as an associated implementation object
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06:14		gaal	autrijus, i see code like fetch <- doHash somehash hash_fetchVal
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06:14		gaal	and then you apply fetch with a key
06:14		autrijus	oh. right. that's because hash_fetchVal is polymorphic over the hash type
06:15		autrijus	all you know is that somehash is a Val
06:15		autrijus	but it may be a VRef to a VHash
06:15		autrijus	or a PerlSV
06:15		autrijus	or a VMatch
06:15		autrijus	or something else entirely
06:15		autrijus	so doHash is used to unpack the Val via typecasing
06:16		gaal	i'm happy i chose to use the hash and not peek in the environment myself :)
06:16		autrijus	(well, not really typecasing)
06:16		gaal	wouldn't have learned all this if i did it the hacky way :)
06:16		autrijus	true :)
06:17		autrijus	yay, other people are up. I'll bbiab, breakfast etc
06:18		gaal	bon breakfast
06:19		gaal	beh, Run.hs doesn't have findVar and i'm not sure i want to add a dep there
06:19		gaal	i'll figure something out :)
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06:29		autrijus	:)
06:30		gaal	what i figured was that i needed readVar :)
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06:44		geoffb	bed time, g'night
06:44		gaal	night geoffb
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06:47		gaal	I have a Val and want to force it to a VBool. how?
06:48		gaal	by Prim's "?" and "!" it looks like VBool var should have done the trick, but i get type errors with that.
06:48		Aankhen``	Shout at it till its spirit is crushed and it obeys all your commands?
06:50		gaal	tempting :) but no
06:50		Aankhen``	:-(
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07:05		scook0	gaal: tried 'VBool (vCast var)'?
07:07		gaal	not yet - but looking around at other aspects of this problem, i realized that since i needed to unsafePerformIO anyway, i might as well skip the hash interface and getEnv directly :/
07:07		gaal	it was fun while it lasted :)
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07:13		* gaal	praises GHC's pragma syntax that urges locality
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07:31		svnbot6	r4525, gaal++ | allow bypassing Standard Prelude when PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE is set in the environment
07:31		svnbot6	r4525, gaal++ | to load an alternate Prelude.pm (from @*INC), use -MPrelude explicitly
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07:49		svnbot6	r4526, autrijus++ | * hw2005 - Embedding Haskell.
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07:59		svnbot6	r4527, autrijus++ | * hw2005.txt - minor fixes
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08:10		Aankhen``	?eval "foo".ref
08:10		evalbot6	::Str
08:11		Aankhen``	?eval "foo".ref.new()
08:11		evalbot6	{obj:Str}
08:11		Aankhen``	?eval "foo".ref.new("bar")
08:11		evalbot6	{obj:Str}
08:11		Aankhen``	?eval ~("foo".ref.new("bar"))
08:11		evalbot6	'<obj:Str>'
08:11		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo { ... } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo
08:11		evalbot6	*** ... - not yet implemented     at <eval> line 1, column 13-17
08:12		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo {  } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo
08:12		evalbot6	\{obj:Foo}
08:12		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo {  } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo; $foo.ref.new();
08:12		evalbot6	{obj:Foo}
08:13		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo {  } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo; my $bar = $foo.ref.new();
08:13		evalbot6	\{obj:Foo}
08:19		Aankhen``	Yeesh.
08:19		svnbot6	r4528, Aankhen++ | * bumped up version number for URI::Escape.
08:19		svnbot6	r4529, Aankhen++ | * URI::Escape now uses the C<module { ... }> form.  iblech++
08:20		Aankhen``	mod_perl2's tests take less time than Pugs's tests. :-P
08:23		crysflame	heh
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08:25		svnbot6	r4530, gaal++ | pugs::run documentation
08:28		Aankhen``	?eval 0 but true
08:28		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
08:28		Aankhen``	?eval true
08:28		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
08:28		Aankhen``	Shouldn't C<true> and C<false> be automatically imported so that stuff like C<0 but true> can be used?
08:28		Aankhen``	(instead of, say, C<0 but bool::true>)
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08:33		gaal	?eval 0 but bool::true
08:33		evalbot6	Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "but" [Val (VInt 0),App (Var "&bool::true") Nothing []]
08:33		gaal	heh.
08:33		Aankhen``	?eval 0 is true
08:33		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
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08:33		Aankhen``	?eval 0 is bool::true
08:33		evalbot6	undef
08:33		Aankhen``	?eval 0 is true
08:33		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
08:33		Aankhen``	:-\
08:34		gaal	?eval (0 is bool::true) ?? "true" :: "false"
08:34		evalbot6	'false'
08:34		gaal	i think this language feature isn't really implemented yet ;-)
08:35		Aankhen``	Yea, but it wouldn't hurt to have C<true> and C<false>. :-)
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08:36		gaal	i'll add them to the prelude
08:36		gaal	but my working copy is not intentionally broken
08:37		gaal	so remind me later :)
08:37		Aankhen``	Heh, okay.
08:37		Aankhen``	gaal++
08:37		gaal	"now" intentionally broken
08:37		gaal	now "intentionally" broken
08:37		gaal	now intentionally "broken"
08:37		gaal	ah, scare quotes.
08:38		Aankhen``	?eval sub foo () { 42 }; &bar ::= &foo; bar();
08:38		evalbot6	Error: Undeclared variable: "&bar"
08:38		Aankhen``	?eval sub foo () { 42 }; my &bar ::= &foo; bar();
08:38		evalbot6	42
08:38		Aankhen``	?eval sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; bar();
08:38		evalbot6	42
08:39		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; }; Foo::bar();
08:39		evalbot6	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&Foo::bar"
08:39		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; }; Foo;
08:39		evalbot6	\{obj:Class}
08:39		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; }; ::Foo;
08:39		evalbot6	\{obj:Class}
08:39		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; }; ::Foo::bar;
08:39		evalbot6	::Foo::bar
08:39		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { sub foo () { 42 }; our &bar ::= &foo; }; ::Foo::bar();
08:39		evalbot6	pugs: cannot cast from VType (mkType "Foo::bar") to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode
08:39		Aankhen``	o_O
08:39		Aankhen``	BBIAB.
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08:44		gaal	another => bug:
08:44		gaal	?eval my %h = ( sub => <yellow> )
08:44		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "=" expecting subroutine parameters or block
08:45		gaal	?eval my %h = ( <sub> => <yellow> )
08:45		evalbot6	{('sub' => 'yellow')}
08:45		gaal	at least, i think it's a bug?
08:45		gaal	brb
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09:00		Aankhen``	?eval my %h = { sub => [<yellow>] }
09:00		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "=" expecting subroutine parameters or block
09:00		Aankhen``	?eval my %h = ( sub => [<yellow>] )
09:00		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "=" expecting subroutine parameters or block
09:00		Aankhen``	Ah.
09:00		gaal	it's the "sub" being interpreted as a subroutine dec
09:00		Aankhen``	I see what you mean.
09:01		gaal	i'm pretty sure it has to do with => precedence, but i'll leave it to autrijus to fix :)
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09:52			Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
09:54		* Aankhen``	wonders if mod_perl for P6 will simply build upon mod_parrot, or whether it's not needed at all...
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10:49		nothingmuch	autrijus: ping
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10:55		nothingmuch	Anyone interested in meta models and dancing might want to look at chapter 7 of the harrorth mess
10:55		nothingmuch	wherein is detailed the way forth words compile forth words
10:56		nothingmuch	and you can learn a bit of assembley too
10:56		nothingmuch	by the way, I need an editor for this stuff
10:56		nothingmuch	any volunteers?
10:56		nothingmuch	i'll buy you a beer at YAPC
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10:59		nothingmuch	okay, 2 beers
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11:05		lightstep	"At the lowest level we need [...] conditional branches [...] provided for by haskell". but the view of the rest of the document is running forth on a sequential machine, while haskell uses a graph reduction model
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11:27		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> An editor of what sort?
11:27		svnbot6	r4531, iblech++ | lib/pugs/run.pod -- More PODification.
11:27		svnbot6	r4532, iblech++ | Pugs.Run  -- use $PERLLIB if $PERL6LIB is not set.
11:27		svnbot6	r4532, iblech++ | pugs::run -- Remove "[make true]" notice about $PERLLIB.
11:27		Aankhen``	A technical editor
11:27		Aankhen``	?
11:28		Aankhen``	Or just someone to fix grammar/punctuation/spelling mistakes?
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11:34		gaal	hah, iblech++; # self-fulfilling documentation
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11:49		* Aankhen``	pokes nothingmuch.
11:49		svnbot6	r4533, iblech++ | Pugs.Eval -- Fixed Haddock-confusing Haddocks.
11:56		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo { multi sub *infix:<==> ($self, $other) { "$self (" ~ $self.ref ~ "), $other (" ~ $other.ref ~ ")" } }; Foo.new() == "a"
11:56		evalbot6	'<obj:Foo> (Foo), a (Str)'
11:56		Aankhen``	?eval class Foo { multi method *infix:<==> ($self: $other) { "$self (" ~ $self.ref ~ "), $other (" ~ $other.ref ~ ")" } }; Foo.new() == "a"
11:56		evalbot6	Error: Wrong number of invocant parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
11:58		* nothingmuch	gets poked
11:59		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: an editor for the harrorth documentation
11:59		nothingmuch	that is: an english language editor, a technical editor
11:59		* Aankhen``	volunteers for the former.
11:59		nothingmuch	in that case, read Harrorth end to end, and darcs send some patches which need no discussion
12:00		nothingmuch	i'll read them and pay better attention to the errors next time
12:00		nothingmuch	and discuss more substantial changes, and we will decide together what to do
12:00		Aankhen``	darcs?  Bleh.
12:01		nothingmuch	okay, unidiffs =)
12:01		nothingmuch	or english diffs: "this was bad, make it "Foo""
12:01		nothingmuch	dad just zonked my brain with ackerman
12:01		Aankhen``	Heh.
12:01		Aankhen``	Nah, I need to get around to reinstalling it anyway.
12:02		nothingmuch	how come?
12:02		nothingmuch	lightstep: ping
12:02		Aankhen``	Just.
12:02		Aankhen``	One question.
12:02		Aankhen``	What is Harrorth?
12:02		nothingmuch	ah
12:02		nothingmuch	http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harrorth/
12:02		nothingmuch	it's my learn-haskell project
12:02		nothingmuch	i'm learning haskell forth and parrot (no parrot yet) by writing a forth compiler in haskell
12:03		nothingmuch	which will eventually target parrot
12:03		Aankhen``	OK.
12:03		Aankhen``	Sounds cool.
12:03		nothingmuch	now, the catch is that i'm documenting my progress like a tutorial
12:03		nothingmuch	so that people like me, who can get through the monad tuts and whatever but don't feel they've actually learned anything useful might find a purpose
12:03		Aankhen``	Sooo, where do I see the documentation?
12:04		nothingmuch	but I can't assume any knowlege, since I don't know much more than the reader at any given point in time
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12:04		nothingmuch	the link i gave you has a doc subdir
12:04		Aankhen``	Oops, sorry.
12:04		Aankhen``	I missed that while looking for Harrorth.
12:05		* Aankhen``	goeth to inshtall darcsh.
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12:05		lightstep	nothingmuch, pong
12:06		Aankhen``	I hate it when a "Building with Microsoft Windows" section starts with "You need MinGW, MSYS, and...".
12:06		nothingmuch	read chapter seven please =)
12:06		nothingmuch	you are my forth guru #2, so i'd appreciate comments
12:07		lightstep	sorry, i only got to the spot i quoted (right before the assembly thingy), and then i slid off to manga. i'll return to it now.
12:07		nothingmuch	oh, i didn't notice you quoted
12:08		nothingmuch	lightstep: i've screwed up a bit in the intro
12:08		nothingmuch	and i've also forgot a paragraph
12:08		nothingmuch	but the point is that we'll be focusing on a strategy for doing this in a haskellish manner in the next chapter
12:08		lightstep	my point is, usually IF is implemented as an immediate work that pushs a JNZ or something, which isn't at all possible in haskell
12:09		nothingmuch	what I plan to do is put the whole "Rest of the word" in the place of the address
12:09		nothingmuch	and make the jump a continuation to the interpretation of that thing
12:10		lightstep	so you need a parser
12:11		nothingmuch	i'm not really what I need yet, we'll see when I start writing the code
12:12		lightstep	ok
12:12		nothingmuch	darcs pull btw
12:14		nothingmuch	lightstep: here's a mini plan, i think i'm going to try and follow it:
12:15		nothingmuch	a "cell" in haskell is either a primitive, a literal, or more AST
12:15		nothingmuch	something like a branch has two choices
12:15		nothingmuch	two continuations, one for each condition
12:16		nothingmuch	the THEN word derives a version of the word currently being compiled
12:16		nothingmuch	with a filled in branch
12:16		nothingmuch	the two choices eventually meet to the same AST, but they don't know it
12:16		nothingmuch	you have a jump which is a cont, and a call which is a recusrive call
12:18		lightstep	are the cells organized in a sequence, or does every cell contain a jump to the next cell?
12:18		nothingmuch	i'm not sure, i think it depends on what's easier to code
12:18		nothingmuch	or what's harder to code, but turns out more elegant ;-)
12:19		lightstep	btw, i've no idea how to use darcs (i only used the web interface till now). i'll be glad if you tell me how to start
12:19		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> Do I use `darcs push` to commit changes?
12:19		lightstep	maybe init, then register, then tag? or whatever the names are?
12:20		nothingmuch	"darcs get http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harrorth" gets you a harrorth in pwd
12:20		Aankhen``	I got it.
12:20		Aankhen``	I'm talking about committing my changes.
12:20		nothingmuch	when you cd into it "darcs pull" updates the repo with changes
12:20		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: that was for lightstep
12:20		Aankhen``	Oh, sorry.
12:20		Aankhen``	Confusion, heh.
12:21		Aankhen``	Er, wait... do I use `darcs record` or `darcs push`?
12:21		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: you can darcs push 'feather:~nothingmuch/harrorth', but I need to chmod it first
12:21		nothingmuch	or you can darcs send
12:21		nothingmuch	and put in my email
12:21		nothingmuch	or you can send -o or something, and that gets put into a file, which you can put somewhere
12:21		Aankhen``	Which would be?
12:21		nothingmuch	or email
12:21		lightstep	whoa, cool. much nore than arch.
12:21		nothingmuch	ah
12:21		nothingmuch	darcs record does that
12:21		nothingmuch	if you've made a change to the working dir you must make a patch out of it
12:21		Aankhen``	OK.
12:21		nothingmuch	once you have a patch you can move it around, and it's dependencies get dragged along with it
12:22		Aankhen``	I'll use `darcs send` later.
12:22		nothingmuch	so you can 'push' or 'send' or 'pull' it
12:23		nothingmuch	also, there's a notion of a "default repo"
12:23		nothingmuch	if you push to the ssh path of the repo, subsequent 'darcs pulls' will use that
12:23		nothingmuch	IIRC
12:23		nothingmuch	which is slower
12:24		nothingmuch	so you should --no-set-default
12:24		nothingmuch	and you can also put that in a config file, so that no-set-default is assumed every time you say 'darcs push'
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12:48		svnbot6	r4534, autrijus++ | * hw2005 - Section 6 (basically) done!  Only one section to go!
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13:05		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> How do I send you the patch by e-mail?
13:05		Aankhen``	I can't `darcs send`, since apparently that will end up using Microsoft Exchange or something.
13:09		Aankhen``	?eval "<URL: http://www.pugscode.org/>" ~~ s/^\<[URL: ]?(.*)\>$/$0/
13:09		evalbot6	Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem! C file src/memory.c, line 45 Parrot file (not available), line (not available)  We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on Parrot.  Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an e-mail to perl6-internalsperl.org. Include the entire text of this error message and the text of the script that generated the error.  If you've made any modifications to Parrot, please describe them
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13:10		Aankhen``	O_O
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13:11		QtPlatypus	Aankhen``: evalbot's regex engion is broken
13:11		svnbot6	r4535, iblech++ | autrijus++'s hw2005 -- Grammar and typo fixes.
13:11		Aankhen``	Ah.
13:11		Aankhen``	Even for P5 regexen?
13:11		QtPlatypus	Its been that way for a while
13:11		iblech	QtPlatypus: Is it? I think it's only because evalhelper.p5 limits the available memory
13:12		Aankhen``	Dangit, now I have to build Parrot. :-(
13:13		iblech	?eval "hi" x 100000000; 5   # shouldn't work
13:13		evalbot6	5
13:13		iblech	?eval "hi" x 100000000000; 5   # shouldn't work
13:13		evalbot6	5
13:13		iblech	?eval "hi" x 1000000000000000; 5   # shouldn't work
13:13		evalbot6	5
13:13		iblech	?eval "hi" x 100000000000000000000; 5   # shouldn't work
13:14		evalbot6	5
13:14		iblech	beh
13:14		Aankhen``	LMAO.
13:14		iblech	?eval bytes("hi" x 100000000000000000000); 5   # shouldn't work
13:14		evalbot6	pugs: out of memory (requested 8388608 bytes)
13:14		iblech	ha! :)
13:14		Aankhen``	Yey!  Finally!
13:14		iblech	Seems like Haskell has pretty good optimizations for strings
13:16		Aankhen``	Yup.
13:16		Aankhen``	?eval bytes("foo")
13:16		evalbot6	3
13:16		Aankhen``	?eval bytes("foobar")
13:16		evalbot6	6
13:16		Aankhen``	Ah.
13:16		Aankhen``	?eval "foobar".bytes
13:16		evalbot6	6
13:16		Aankhen``	That bytes().  Heh.
13:16		Aankhen``	"foobar".chars
13:16		Aankhen``	?eval "foobar".chars
13:16		evalbot6	6
13:17		QtPlatypus	I wonder if haskal is cheeting and your "hi" x 100000000000000000000 just doesn't get run due to lazyness
13:18		Aankhen``	?eval "foobar".graphs
13:18		evalbot6	6
13:18		Aankhen``	?eval "foobar".codes
13:18		evalbot6	6
13:19		QtPlatypus	?eval "??".chars
13:19		evalbot6	2
13:20		iblech	FYI, .graphs is currently a synonym to .chars
13:20		Aankhen``	OK.
13:22		iblech	QtPlatypus: In pure Haskell: for sure -- (concat $ replicate 10000000 "Hi") will return immediately. But I wonder why that's the case in Pugs, too, as we explicitely disable laziness in the appropriate places, so we match Perl's behaviour...
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13:24		QtPlatypus	iblech: It could be a bug.  Though I expect not an majour one.
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13:26		Aankhen``	?eval our <$foo $bar $baz>;
13:26		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "<" expecting qualified identifier, variable name or "("
13:26		Aankhen``	?eval our (<$foo $bar $baz>);
13:26		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "<" expecting variable name, "undef" or ")"
13:26		Aankhen``	Ah well.
13:26		Aankhen``	I had to try. :-)
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13:27		svnbot6	r4536, iblech++ | ChangeLog -- Add note about pugs::run.
13:27		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo = "bar\\n"; $foo;
13:27		evalbot6	\'bar\\n'
13:28		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo = "bar\n"; $foo;
13:28		evalbot6	\'bar '
13:28		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo = "bar\\n"; $foo;
13:28		evalbot6	\'bar\\n'
13:28		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo = "bar\\n"; "\Q[$foo]";
13:28		evalbot6	'Q[bar\\n]'
13:28		iblech	?eval our ($foo, $bar, $baz);   # works
13:28		evalbot6	undef
13:28		Aankhen``	iblech >> Yeh, I know.
13:28		Aankhen``	I was just wondering whether through any manipulation of parsing <...> would work. :-)
13:29		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo = "bar\\n"; quotemeta($foo);
13:29		evalbot6	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&quotemeta"
13:30		iblech	Ah. But I don't think it could work, as our() expects variables ($foo), not variable names ('$foo').
13:30		Aankhen``	Yeah, I know.
13:31		Aankhen``	Like I said, I was just wondering. :-)
13:32		iblech	wondering++ :)
13:33		Aankhen``	Hehe.
13:33		Aankhen``	# XXX: Hopefully uri CLASS will return CLASS.
13:33		Aankhen``	# See L<S06/"Currying"/"subroutines/methods/etc. simultaneously:">.
13:33		Aankhen``	$impclass ||= .:implementor($scheme) ||= use URI::_foreign;
13:33		Aankhen``	Do you think you could explain that?
13:34		Aankhen``	(I read the relevant section in S06, but I don't quite understand)
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13:36		iblech	s/uri/use/ in the first line of the comment
13:36		iblech	use(Class) should evaluate to Class
13:36		Aankhen``	Ahh.
13:37		iblech	(That was my understanding of the AES, if not, one would have to write ...||= do { use URI::_foreign; URI::_foreign }
13:37		Aankhen``	OK.
13:38		Aankhen``	Is there any reason why ||= should be used there instead of //=?
13:38		iblech	No, probably just habit. //= is fine and more clear
13:38		Aankhen``	Okey dokey!
13:39		Aankhen``	Ah, I would dearly love to have subtypes and C<where> clauses.
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13:44		Aankhen``	method :init(::?CLASS $class: Str $str, Str $scheme) {
13:44		Aankhen``	That looks for an invocant of type URI?
13:45		Aankhen``	I mean, wouldn't that make more sense as $self or something of the sort?
13:45		Aankhen``	Hrm, wait.
13:45		* Aankhen``	re-reads.
13:45		iblech	:init is a class method
13:46		iblech	No, wait, it isn't...
13:46		Aankhen``	It is, apparently.
13:46		Aankhen``	return $impclass.:init($uri, $scheme);
13:46		Aankhen``	That's how it's called.
13:46		iblech	It *should* be a class method, but isn't in my port
13:46		iblech	Yep
13:47		Aankhen``	So it ought to be Class $class, right?
13:47		iblech	The proper translation is method :init(Class $class: ...)
13:47		iblech	Yep
13:47		Aankhen``	Yeh.
13:47		Aankhen``	Heh.
13:47		* Aankhen``	edits.
13:50		Aankhen``	C<< bless $class: foo => "bar" >> is a synonym for C<< $class.bless(foo => "bar") >>?
13:51		iblech	Yep
13:51		Aankhen``	OK.
13:51		Aankhen``	iblech++ # patient as always
14:03		svnbot6	r4537, iblech++ | Pugs.Help -- Minor cosmetic fix.
14:03		svnbot6	r4537, iblech++ | pugs::run -- Wrote section about Pugs' command line flags.
14:03		svnbot6	r4538, gaal++ | fix mention of yaml_harness
14:03		svnbot6	r4539, iblech++ | Pugs.Help -- Put link to pugs::run.
14:06		gaal	iblech, do you think pugs::run should be svn mv'ed to end with .pm? if so please go ahead
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14:07		iblech	Don't see anything wrong with .pod
14:08		gaal	k, i just nocticed you called it .pm somewhere. never mind :)
14:08		iblech	Ah, typo
14:08		svnbot6	r4540, gaal++ | add =item for PERLLIB
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15:01		kelan	jabbot: nopaste
15:01		jabbot	kelan: I'm not sure I understand you fully.
15:01		kelan	perlbot: nopaste
15:01		perlbot	Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
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15:16		Aankhen``	Wow, TortoiseSVN rocks.
15:32		gaal	Wow, Close to the Edge rocks. (just sayin')
15:32		Aankhen``	Yes rocks.
15:33		gaal	Yes++; progrock++
15:34		gaal	(that feeling of listeining to an album you love after a while you didn't listen to it, only to discover it's still amazingly excellent)++
15:35		Aankhen``	(listening to a shuffled, 5000 song library over time and therefore discovering new music everyday)++
15:35		Aankhen``	(parents who listen to music you like)++
15:36		gaal	cofee!
15:36		gaal	wow, this is bad spell day.
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17:45		putter	autrijus: is there anything we can do to help you meet deadline?
17:46		* putter	notes svn.openfoundry.org is off the air.  A hw2005.txt ci with minor grammar tweaks will have to wait...:(
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18:18		autrijus	putter: heya
18:18		autrijus	putter: please nopaste it here
18:18		autrijus	putter: or just paste it here
18:22		Limbic_Region	how goes the hackathon autrijus?
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18:37		autrijus	Limbic_Region: very well!
18:37		autrijus	figured out the compilation strategy
18:37		autrijus	I'm still finishing up hw2005 (due in 3.5 hours)
18:38		Limbic_Region	you'll make it
18:38		autrijus	lots of blatant obsoleted and misleading statements in parrot PDDs removed
18:38		autrijus	learned TeX (but not bibtex yet)
18:39		integral	.oO( ParrotTeX )
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18:42		iblech	autrijus: If you have a sec -- is there a way to use Pugs.Eval.findVar from Pugs.Parser.Unsafe?
18:43		gaal	autrijus: in the "Tied" section: consider
18:43		gaal	-objects".  If yes, Perl then calls the "STORE" method on those objects, passing
18:43		gaal	+objects".  If they are, Perl then calls the "STORE" method on those objects, passing
18:44		iblech	Currently I'm using "unsafeEvalExp $ Var "varname"", but this 1) dies if varname wasn't found and 2) seems a bit too heavy to me, as I just want to resolve varname
18:44		gaal	iblech, can't you readVar ?
18:44		gaal	oh you'tr in the parser, no matter
18:46		iblech	...And findVar has special logic for &vars (i.e. automatically creating &prefix:<[+]> etc.), which I'd rather not like to replicate in Pugs.Parser.Unsafe
18:47		autrijus	greetings
18:48		autrijus	iblech: I think readVar is the way to go.
18:49		autrijus	if you want the value, that is
18:49		autrijus	iblech: you can duplicate readVar's logic
18:49		autrijus	or generalise it for all MonadEval class.
18:50		autrijus	gaal: gaal thanks, fixed
18:51		iblech	But it seems that readVar doesn't have special logic for &vars, so readVar won't find "&prefix:<[+]>", right?
18:52		autrijus	right. so you need to move the logic there
18:52		autrijus	and reuse it
18:52		gaal	actually: also ..."on them", not "on those objects", since we are already in the Deict monad.
18:52		iblech	Ok, I'll try that
18:53		autrijus	gaal: k
18:53		* autrijus	started writing out PIR grammar
18:53		autrijus	after 20 constructors
18:53		autrijus	I found there's still 40 to go
18:55		autrijus	if I still had any doubt about the craziness of generate PIR directly from the parsed Exp, with any chance of optimisation, then there's no more
18:55		autrijus	it's clearly a way of madness
18:55		autrijus	instead I've written out the PAST grammar which has only seven node types, so we can optimise the hell out of it :)
18:55		autrijus	even for the Eval monad itself
18:55		autrijus	so expect some more 200% speedups down the road :)
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18:56		autrijus	iblech: hey, you grok TeX right?
18:57		iblech	autrijus: If you mean LateX, then yes
18:57		iblech	Don't have a clue of pure TeX
18:57		gaal	:)
18:58		autrijus	:)
18:59		iblech	:)   # 3 smileys, can we top that? :)
18:59		autrijus	iblech: cool. I'm having problems distinguishing
18:59		autrijus	\texttt{}
18:59		autrijus	\code{]
18:59		autrijus	and other constructs
18:59		autrijus	during the conversion of .txt to .tex
18:59		gaal	we can do a moose smiley. }:)
19:00		crysflame	:X
19:00		autrijus	iblech: do you have a feather account?
19:00		autrijus	in ~autrijus/hw2005/pugs.tex
19:00		autrijus	that's my current formatted source
19:00		autrijus	I'd be happy if you can sanity check a bit to see if there's some outrageous errors
19:00		autrijus	(typing "make" in there should produce a pugs.ps)
19:01		iblech	autrijus: No, please cp that to public_html or how it's called
19:01		iblech	autrijus: Sure
19:01		autrijus	and/or help fixing the usage of things like {tree"} nad turn "libperl.so" to \texttt{libperl.so} (or something like that)
19:02		autrijus	iblech: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/hw2005.tgz
19:02		autrijus	danke sehr
19:03		iblech	Kein Problem
19:05		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: did you figure darcs out?
19:07		putter	back... pasting...
19:07		iblech	autrijus: Hm, you defined \code to mean the same as \texttt, so what's the exact problem?
19:08		autrijus	iblech: the exact problem is that I did none of that definition XD
19:08		autrijus	iblech: it's all copy-paste of hs-plugins.tex
19:08		autrijus	I have no idea what is defined to what
19:08		autrijus	so if \code just means \texttt... then wonderful
19:08		autrijus	thanks for telling me that :)
19:09		autrijus	also I noticed the source code <pre> things
19:09		autrijus	doesn't break
19:09		iblech	autrijus: :) It's at the top: \newcommand{\code}[1]{\texttt{#1}} -- "define the new command "\code", which takes 1 arg (which can be later referred to by #1), and let it expand to \texttt{#1}"
19:09		pasteling	Someone at 66.30.119.55 pasted "hw2005.txt: minor grammar tweaks." (25 lines, 1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10953
19:10		nothingmuch	autrijus: any opinions on chapter 7?
19:11		autrijus	nothingmuch: Leo says your journal is the best text he've found about Haskell
19:12		autrijus	and that he can actually grok one chapter at a time without head exploding or something
19:12		nothingmuch	=D
19:12		nothingmuch	there's a saying in judaism
19:12			Enveigler1 has joined #perl6
19:12		nothingmuch	saving one life is like saving the whole world
19:12		nothingmuch	scaled down to saving a head from exploding
19:12		autrijus	I think ch7 is wonderful -- I never grokked how compile-time words relate to BEGIN until you wrote that
19:12		nothingmuch	just that makes me overjoyed =)
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19:13		autrijus	of course the BEGIN is nestable?
19:14		autrijus	you can do compile-time-inside-compile-time?
19:14		nothingmuch	i'm not 100% sure
19:14		nothingmuch	i haven't played around
19:14		nothingmuch	in theory yes
19:14		nothingmuch	though I suspect it depends on your impl
19:14		nothingmuch	: just puts stuff on the stack
19:14		nothingmuch	or maybe it doesn't, i'm not sure
19:15		autrijus	nod.
19:15		nothingmuch	you might preallocate some data
19:15		nothingmuch	the way a word's definition is linear
19:15		nothingmuch	or make sure to jump around the nested word
19:15		nothingmuch	food time... see you soon!
19:15		autrijus	ciao
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19:20		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> I figured out darcs somewhat, but I need to figure out how I send you a particular patch by e-mail; I can't use `darcs send` as it tries to send using Microsoft Exchange.
19:21		gaal	a.*, darcs send -o file.patch
19:22		autrijus	mugwump: hey, you know if there's a pod2kwid somewhere?
19:22		Aankhen``	Like I said, `darcs send` doesn't work...
19:22		autrijus	chip's asking
19:22		Aankhen``	Or rather, it's not an option.
19:22		gaal	-o file writes it to a file
19:23		Aankhen``	Oh.
19:23		autrijus	maybe PDDs won't take up that much vertical space when it's converted to kwid :)
19:24		autrijus	hmm Pod::Simple::DumpAsKwid
19:24		Aankhen``	Thanks, gaal. :-)
19:24		gaal	sure :)
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19:28		pasteling	"iblech" at 80.81.17.181 pasted "autrijus: pugs.tex fixes" (120 lines, 5.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10954
19:28		autrijus	iblech++ xx inf
19:30		autrijus	iblech: h
19:30		autrijus	iblech: hm, can't apply
19:30		autrijus	iblech: can you just put the entire .tex somewhere?
19:30		autrijus	I'll adapt
19:30		iblech	Sure, a sec
19:31		iblech	http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/.pugs.tex
19:32		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: probably the simplest way for you to work is by just pushing to the repo on feather
19:32		nothingmuch	keep your own repo there
19:32		nothingmuch	by darcs getting to your home dir
19:32		nothingmuch	(it's cheap, too, hardlinks and all that)
19:32		putter	autrijus: I assume you saw the paste.  Is pugs.tex supposed to be A4 or Letter.  I note some of the code sticks out far enough to overlap adjacent columns, or be clipped by A4 printing.
19:32		nothingmuch	and then push to your repo, where I can pull from
19:34		kelan	anyone want to help me understand harrorth chapter 6? :)
19:34		nothingmuch	kelan: sure =)
19:34		nothingmuch	but blame autrijus ;-)
19:34		kelan	heh
19:34		nothingmuch	i think that in a later stage in the project i will try to move it down the chronology
19:34		autrijus	putter: indeed... I don't know why is it the case
19:34		autrijus	maybe I should investigate linebreaks
19:35		kelan	well i get most of it, but i can't figure out how the simplified `interpret` is evaluating correctly
19:35		autrijus	it's for A4
19:35		autrijus	http://www.cs.uu.nl/~daan/hw2005/
19:35		autrijus	but deadline is in 90 minutes :)
19:35		autrijus	so I'll focus on the content
19:35		autrijus	almost there
19:35		kelan	this line (line 225): interpret ast = doExp (head ast) >>= \i -> return i
19:35		kelan	with the simplified `doExp` that just returns an empty interp
19:35		iblech	autrijus: Listings don't auto-break, one has to put breaks manually in them
19:36		autrijus	iblech: :-/
19:36		kelan	it doesnt seem like it should work to me
19:36		autrijus	iblech or putter: do you have time to investigate A4 breaks for me?
19:36		kelan	so apparently i'm misunderstanding something
19:36		nothingmuch	how is the vienna hackathon proceeding?
19:36		autrijus	and perhaps update the .pugs.tex file again
19:36		iblech	Will do
19:36		autrijus	nothingmuch: it's extremely fruitful thus far
19:36		autrijus	nothingmuch: got Pugs->Parrot compilation strategy figured out largely
19:36		iblech	autrijus: Should I use the same .tex? Or do you have an updated version of it?
19:37		nothingmuch	with the meta compilation thingamabob?
19:37		autrijus	iblech: just use the same .tex
19:37		autrijus	I'll deal
19:37		autrijus	nothingmuch: yeah
19:37		iblech	autrijus: Ok
19:37		nothingmuch	is this going to be a 10 day thing? WOW!
19:37		pasteling	"kelan" at 68.101.16.64 pasted "what's wrong in my evaluation understanding?" (169 lines, 2.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10955
19:37		autrijus	nothingmuch: yeah... also leo has got some notes on how to get STM on parrot
19:37		nothingmuch	=D
19:38		autrijus	and serialised conts
19:38		kelan	thats a bit long, because i wrote out all of the steps
19:38		autrijus	so the two big things can be made portable
19:38		autrijus	now we just have to make parrot link libperl
19:38		autrijus	and then there's nothing stopping the entire examples/ to be compiled to parrot
19:40		nothingmuch	what what what?
19:40		nothingmuch	i don't see the connection between libperl and examples
19:41		putter	iblech: another option is to reduce the explicit indentation in the lstlisting's which are too long... sacrificing consistency for "dont have to rewrite code".
19:41		autrijus	nothingmuch: examples/perl5/cpan-upload.p6!
19:41		nothingmuch	ah!
19:41		putter	autrijus: references?
19:41		autrijus	putter: I failed to grok bibtex.
19:41		nothingmuch	kelan: sorry, i missed the nopaste... reading now
19:41		kelan	nothingmuch: ok thanks
19:41		autrijus	putter: so I guess I can use some help in googlescholaring
19:42		gaal	please keep in mind that we don't have perl5 embedding in win32...
19:42		autrijus	gaal: but parrot is no ghc
19:42		autrijus	gaal: parrot can survive link with perl more easily
19:43		gaal	ah! wonderful
19:43		putter	is there a list of papers you intend to reference somewhere...?
19:43		nothingmuch	kelan: i think you got it right
19:43		kelan	nothingmuch: but the end result is a function, not an empty interp
19:44		nothingmuch	oh wait... one sec
19:44		kelan	you would need to apply that function to another interp to get the empty one back
19:44		nothingmuch	think of it this way
19:44		autrijus	putter: "Monadic framework for subcontinuations"... the GADT paper from SPJ... hs-plugins paper... the STM paper...
19:44		nothingmuch	f <- doExp ...
19:44		autrijus	putter: any paper about parrot, I have no idea...
19:44		autrijus	putter: that's pretty much it
19:44		nothingmuch	local f (interpret exps);
19:45		nothingmuch	ignore the rest of the stuff for now
19:45		kelan	i don't know what `local` does, which is why i was trying with the simplified `interpret`
19:45		nothingmuch	this function will return a Reader with a function that will give an interpreter to X, take the result, and send it to local
19:45		nothingmuch	chain it
19:45		nothingmuch	and that's basically it
19:45		nothingmuch	the details is just a triple inversion
19:45		nothingmuch	well, double inversion
19:46		nothingmuch	try expanding >>= first
19:46		nothingmuch	i think it will make more sense
19:46		nothingmuch	oh wait, that's what you did
19:46		nothingmuch	=)
19:46		kelan	:)
19:46		autrijus	brb
19:46		nothingmuch	in that case, stop there, then evaluate the external runReader
19:46		kelan	it seems like there needs to be another application somewhere to get a real result
19:47		nothingmuch	yes, the details are hard... i spent like 2 hours reading the source to Reader again and again and again
19:47		nothingmuch	as I said before, I think it will make a wonderful obfu in p5
19:47		pasteling	"iblech" at 80.81.17.181 pasted "autrijus: line break fixes" (155 lines, 6.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10956
19:47		nothingmuch	i've never seen 10 lines confuse me so much
19:48		iblech	autrijus: The only two lines which are a little bit too long are two example lines of async { atomically {
19:48		autrijus	ok.
19:52		nothingmuch	kelan: i think that maybe >>= is incorrect
19:53		kelan	the one i used?
19:53		nothingmuch	the expansion
19:53		kelan	i used the version from the Prelude because it expands easier, but it should be the same
19:54		kelan	i'll look over my expansion
19:54		nothingmuch	hmm
19:54		nothingmuch	i'm not sure
19:54		nothingmuch	what I remember most distinctly:
19:54		nothingmuch	doExp returns a lambda
19:55		nothingmuch	eventually there's very little parameter passing, which is quite transparent
19:55		nothingmuch	between the lambda returned by runReader (interp ast) and that lambda
19:55		kelan	i thought doExp returns a Reader
19:56		nothingmuch	yes it does, a lambda in a Reader
19:56		kelan	right
19:56		nothingmuch	ignore the Reader for a second, it's just glue =)
19:56		kelan	but the Reader is where the problem is for me
19:56		kelan	because the lambda inside it is never applied
19:56		nothingmuch	i mean at the principal level
19:56		nothingmuch	the lambda inside is supposed to get the external `e` i think
19:57		nothingmuch	let me try to carry on the second reduction of runReader
19:57		nothingmuch	i would have done it differently
19:57		nothingmuch	i'll nopaste in a sec
19:58		kelan	does `runReader (return $ \interp -> interp{ stack = []})` evaluate to `\_ -> (\interp -> interp{ stack = []})` ?
19:58		* putter	is not making good progress...
19:59		kelan	because if so, the external `e` is going into the `_` parameter, so it doesnt get to the inner lambda
19:59		nothingmuch	right, which is silly
20:00		nothingmuch	the error is before what I started with
20:00		nothingmuch	because in another reduction i get the same thing
20:01		autrijus	chip: when you have the next spare moment
20:01		autrijus	chip: please rescue me from my room, thanks, much appreciated :)
20:02		autrijus	(my room in leo's place has a knob only on one side of the door.)
20:02		autrijus	(so if I go into the room without unpacking the knob and taking it with me inside, then I'm effectively locked within)
20:02		autrijus	(because it can only be opened from outside)
20:03		chip	autrijus: LOL ok
20:03		kelan	hmm. closets usually only have knobs on the outside, don't they ;)
20:03		kelan	leo stuck you in a closet!
20:03		chip	autrijus: Leo's on the way!
20:03		autrijus	cool
20:03		* chip	is amused that this message passed through .nl if not .us to get about 30 meters
20:04		kelan	nothingmuch: maybe i should give up on this part and just try to understand the real version that uses `local`?
20:05		nothingmuch	i think so
20:05		nothingmuch	but not yet
20:05		nothingmuch	try reducing runReader (interpret []) initInterp
20:05		kelan	ok
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20:05		nothingmuch	oh right! i see why,
20:05		nothingmuch	doExp needs returns something to be used by local, in most situations
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20:06		nothingmuch	i think that using it as the left side of a bind that does an ask is not 100% correct
20:06		nothingmuch	but i'm not sure
20:06		nothingmuch	i'm too tired from doing silly things all day long
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20:08		jhorwitz	yo lambdacamels.  back from vacation.  i'm sure i missed, well, everything.  :)
20:08		autrijus	yo jhorwitz!
20:09		nothingmuch	kelan: i'll try to reduce stuff for you, and append it to harrorth
20:09		autrijus	jhorwitz: leo chip me among other friends figured out ways to do Exp->PAST->PIR->PBC!
20:09		nothingmuch	that way you can check if you got it right when you finish
20:09		kelan	nothingmuch: ok, thanks
20:09		jhorwitz	autrijus: ooooooh
20:09		autrijus	jhorwitz: also figured out VObj in ParrotObject land
20:09		jhorwitz	autrijus++
20:09		autrijus	and generational GC
20:09		jhorwitz	in europe now?
20:10		nothingmuch	and if it's not right, i was probably wrong =)
20:10		autrijus	and plans for STM and serialised conts
20:10		autrijus	and stuff.
20:10		autrijus	(all within the last 18 hours)
20:10		autrijus	jhorwitz: yeah, in Leo's place
20:10		jhorwitz	i wouldn't expect any less in 18 hours from you guys.  :)
20:10		autrijus	jhorwitz: but I have 50 mins to finish this paper :)
20:10		autrijus	(oh I also recorded some of this into the paper.)
20:10		jhorwitz	off with you.  ;-)
20:11		* jhorwitz	is now anticipating his next svn up
20:13		putter	autrijus: when is the deadline?
20:14		nothingmuch	kelan: interpret [] finished  - darcs pull
20:15		autrijus	putter: midnight london time today
20:15		putter	which is now+?
20:15		autrijus	+45
20:15		autrijus	min
20:15		autrijus	I'm in Conclusions
20:15		nothingmuch	midnight london time? it's midnight in 45 mins here
20:15		nothingmuch	and it's GMT+3
20:16		jhorwitz	4:15 here, and i'm GMT+5
20:16		jhorwitz	i think you have more time than you think
20:16		autrijus	right
20:16		Aankhen``	1:45 AM here; GMT+5.5
20:16		autrijus	I counted backwards.
20:16		autrijus	so still 2:45.
20:16		Aankhen``	(just thought I'd add to the time lists :-P)
20:16		autrijus	but I can't stay up anymore :)
20:16		jhorwitz	eek, i'm GMT -5
20:16		jhorwitz	plus, minus...minor details
20:16		nothingmuch	autrijus: cold shower == minimum 30 minutes of alertness
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20:18		integral	midnight london time?   That's not for 2h40 ...
20:18		* integral	is brain lagged
20:19		crysflame	central
20:21		chip	London is -1 from us, as we're Greenwich+1 (which is not to say GMT+1, what with summer)
20:22		chip	s/us/Hernnbaumbarten/
20:22		chip	s/Hernnbaumbarten/Herrnbaumgarten/ # geez, spelling German is hard
20:23		integral	hmm?  you're GMT+1?  Isn't that what we are?
20:23		integral	s/we/London/
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20:25		chip	Um, that's exactly what I said we aren't.
20:25		chip	"which is not to say GMT+1"
20:25		integral	uh, so by "greenwich" you didn't mean GMT, you meant London time ...
20:26		* integral	goes back to hacking continuations to fix his brain ;-)
20:26		autrijus	so it's just GT, not mean :)
20:26		gaal	UTC or Z come in handy :)
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20:30		putter	iblech: e' in tex?
20:30		iblech	putter: ?
20:31		kelan	probably wants é
20:31		nothingmuch	kelan: done!
20:32		kelan	i'm not:)
20:32		putter	yes
20:32		nothingmuch	interpret [Push 1] and interpret []
20:32		nothingmuch	have fun =)
20:32		kelan	ok thanks
20:32		nothingmuch	i'm off to do laundry/shower etc
20:32		nothingmuch	under misc/
20:32		putter	andré
20:32		kelan	nod
20:33		iblech	putter: Don't know for sure, try 'e, `e, e', e`, "e, e"
20:33		nothingmuch	this is what I finish with: ( \e' -> e'{ interpStack = (1:) (interpStack e') } ) initInterp
20:33		nothingmuch	( \e' -> e'{ interpStack = 1:(interpStack e') } ) initInterp
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20:44		Odin-LAP	GMT is absolutely and completely equivalent to UTC. UTC is just the new name for GMT. ;)
20:45		gaal	true; but it was given that name to remove possible confusion against london time.
20:45		Odin-LAP	Heh. :p
20:45		Odin-LAP	England is GMT+DST.
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20:47		iblech	Yay! We have rudimentary macro support! :)
20:47		autrijus	iblech: !?
20:47		autrijus	oh wow.
20:47		Odin-LAP	Riddle me this. Is there something specced somewhere which says alphabetic operators have to be seperated from operands by space?
20:47		Odin-LAP	Hmmm.
20:47		iblech	pugs> macro test ($x) { say "macro"; "100$x" }
20:47		iblech	undef
20:47		iblech	pugs> sleep 1; say 2; test 3
20:47		iblech	2
20:47		iblech	macro
20:47		iblech	'1003'
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		Odin-LAP	iblech: How rudimentary? :>
20:48		Aankhen``	iblech++
20:48		Aankhen``	iblech++
20:48		Aankhen``	iblech++
20:48		iblech	But not the whole parsing thing, only the compile-time evaluation thing
20:48		autrijus	right, but that's fine
20:48		Odin-LAP	Heeh. :p
20:48		autrijus	because I plan to compile rules into parsec prims anyway
20:48		autrijus	but that's for 6.28.x
20:48		iblech	Odin-LAP: t/macros/*, with small modifications, pass :)
20:48		autrijus	this is so nice
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		autrijus	iblech++
20:48		Aankhen``	Parsing would need to wait till we have better rules support anyway, wouldn't it?
20:49		autrijus	Aankhen``: yes
20:49		iblech	That's enough, thanks :)
20:49		Odin-LAP	karma iblech
20:49		jabbot	Odin-LAP: iblech has karma of 337
20:49		autrijus	in other news, I believe I just finished the first draft.
20:49		autrijus	like, complete, text
20:49		autrijus	only problem now is no references.
20:49		Aankhen``	?eval module Foo { }
20:49		evalbot6	undef
20:50		autrijus	http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/hw2005.tex
20:50		autrijus	http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/hw2005.pdf
20:50		iblech	Aankhen``: Do you think it should return the type/module/class object Foo?
20:50			xinming has joined #perl6
20:50		Aankhen``	iblech >> IMHO, having C<use module;> return the module/class is enough...
20:51		iblech	Aankhen``: Ok
20:51		Aankhen``	I figure if C<module Foo { }> returns the module, the only use would be to have anonymous modules... is there a need for that?
20:52		iblech	autrijus: On the last page, in the bottom left, the definition of RelOp is a little bit too long
20:52		autrijus	iblech: fixed already
20:52		autrijus	reuploaded
20:52		Aankhen``	?eval "foo".trans([<f o>] => [<F O>])
20:52		evalbot6	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&trans"
20:52		Aankhen``	?eval "foo" ~~ tr/a-z/A-Z/
20:52		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "A" expecting term postfix, operator, ",", ":", ">>=:=<<", ">>!=<<", ">>==<<", ">><=<<", ">>>=<<", ">>~~<<", ">>!~<<", ">>eq<<", ">>ne<<", ">>lt<<", ">>le<<", ">>gt<<", ">>ge<<", ">><<<", ">>><<", "\187=:=\171", "\187!=\171", "\187==\171", "\187<=\171", "\187>=\171", "\187~~\171", "\187!~\171", "\187eq\171", "\187ne\171", "\187lt\171", "\187le\171", "\187gt\171", "\187ge\171", "\187<\171", "\187>\171", "=:=", "!=", "==", "<=", ">=", "~
20:53		autrijus	oh wow.
20:53		autrijus	(re the error message)
20:53		Aankhen``	Heh.
20:53		Aankhen``	Hrm.
20:53		nothingmuch	my god, you go for 10 minutes, and pugs gets macros
20:54		autrijus	nothingmuch: such is the pre-singularity age of accelerated acceleration
20:54		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<==> ($first, $second) { $first ~ "1" eq $second ~ "2" }; "a" == "b"
20:54		evalbot6	bool::false
20:54		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<==> ($first, $second) { $first ~ "1" eq $second ~ "2" }; "a" == "a"
20:54		evalbot6	bool::false
20:54		* Aankhen``	snickers.
20:54		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<==> ($first, $second) { $first ~ "1" eq $second ~ "2" }; 1 ==
20:54		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
20:54		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<==> ($first, $second) { $first ~ "1" eq $second ~ "2" }; 1 == 1
20:54		evalbot6	bool::true
20:54		Aankhen``	D'oh.
20:55		nothingmuch	everyone, we need to make a petition to iblech's school so that they will let him go to the hackathon this week
20:55		* Aankhen``	un-snickers.
20:55		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<==> ($first, $second) { ("$first, $second", $first ~ "1" eq $second ~ "2") }; 1 == 1
20:55		evalbot6	bool::true
20:55		Aankhen``	Bah.
20:56		* autrijus	decides to just mail the current version to Daan.
20:56		Aankhen``	?eval multi sub *infix:<+> ($first, $second) { ("$first, $second", $first ~ "1" ~ $second ~ "2") }; 1 + 1
20:56		evalbot6	2
20:57			dkf has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
20:57		Aankhen``	?eval my $foo; $foo = "foo"; my $bar ::= $foo; $bar = "bar"; $foo;
20:57		evalbot6	\'bar'
20:57		nothingmuch	Aankhen``: btw, what did you do with the darcs patch?
20:57		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> I tried e-mailing it to you, but failed...
20:57		nothingmuch	push it to feather then
20:57		Aankhen``	What was your e-mail address?
20:57		Aankhen``	I'm scared of doing that.
20:57		nothingmuch	ssh feather; darcs get ~nothingmuch/harrorth;
20:57		nothingmuch	then push to feather:harrorth
20:58		Aankhen``	Would that require an account on feather?
20:58		nothingmuch	yes, it would
20:58		nothingmuch	[emailhidden.address]
20:58		nothingmuch	or you can have an account on pasta (my box)
20:58		nothingmuch	you can also nopaste a patch
20:58		nothingmuch	or put a txt one somewhere
20:58		Aankhen``	It's kinda long; I'll e-mail it.
20:59			rederik has joined #perl6
20:59		Aankhen``	woobling?  Not wobbling?
20:59		nothingmuch	no, woobling
20:59		Aankhen``	Ah.
20:59		Aankhen``	That'd be my mistake, then.
20:59		nothingmuch	like what the swedish chef says when he does the coconut thing
21:00		Aankhen``	Sent.
21:00			knewt_ has joined #perl6
21:00		nothingmuch	grazie!
21:00		nothingmuch	mplayer http://woobling.org/coconut.mp4
21:00			Enveigler1 has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:00		Aankhen``	NP, sorry it got delayed.
21:02		Aankhen``	When you use a Proxy object on an C<is rw> sub/method, does it actually create a new object each time?
21:04		chip	could be a different method every time.  &aliasing := &bites
21:05		Aankhen``	Er... I'll take that as a yes.
21:05		pasteling	"putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "a first rough cut at bibtex" (35 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10957
21:05		chip	I can't answer for sure, I'm just guessing
21:05		Aankhen``	OK, thanks.
21:06		putter	autrijus: are these the papers you have in mind?  any others? (I didn't see any papers for parrot.  just talks).
21:06		chip	Who is responsible for svnbot6?
21:06		autrijus	putter: oh wow.
21:06		* chip	uses the Professor Mind Trick
21:06		Aankhen``	chip >> iblech, I think...
21:06		chip	"These are not the papers you're looking for.  You can go about your grad work."
21:06		autrijus	putter: yes, those are those.
21:07		chip	iblech: ping
21:07		iblech	chip: Yes?
21:07		putter	ok, I'll do a quick cleanup pass...
21:07		autrijus	putter: how do I integrate it with http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/hw2005.tex ?
21:07		autrijus	putter: cool! please just give me a url of tarball or something I can download and resend to Daan, then
21:07		chip	iblech: since you've set up and are running the bot already, could you watch parrot and send commit messages to irc.perl.org #parrot?
21:08		iblech	chip: Sure
21:08		Aankhen``	Aha!  I was right!  Mwahahhaahahahaahahaha!
21:08		chip	iblech: thanks!  https://svn.perl.org/parrot
21:08		* Aankhen``	accidentally chokes.
21:09		autrijus	er
21:09		autrijus	actually
21:09		autrijus	iblech: http://svn.perl.org/parrot/trunk/
21:09		autrijus	is a better url
21:09		* Aankhen``	recovers and takes on a dignified air.
21:09			cornelius- has left "Leaving"
21:09		Aankhen``	autrijus++ # I second that
21:09		chip	what, only the truck?
21:09		chip	trunk?
21:09		Aankhen``	# (remind me not to `svn co http://svn.perl.org/parrot/` ever again, even by mistake)
21:10		chip	heh
21:10		chip	could be worse.  Robert didn't bring over the repo copy of icu
21:10		Aankhen``	The whole checkout crashed somewhere around tags/RELEASE_0_1_0/.
21:10		Aankhen``	Then I suddenly realised that last time I did it, I only checked out the trunk.
21:10		Aankhen``	Ah sweet, sweet trunk...
21:11			mr_ank has joined #perl6
21:11		Aankhen``	iblech++ # svnbot6
21:12			dkf has joined #perl6
21:13		Aankhen``	Hmmm...
21:14		Aankhen``	iblech >> Is there a reason why Net::IRC isn't a proper class, aside from the primitive nature of Pugs OO at the time it was written?
21:15		putter	ok, pasting first working draft, connection info...
21:15		Aankhen``	s/primitive/relatively primitive/
21:15		nothingmuch	-and returns an `IO Interp`. WTF?
21:15		autrijus	putter: ping me when you're done
21:15		nothingmuch	+and returns an `IO Interp`. WTH?
21:15		nothingmuch	silly!
21:15		* Aankhen``	blushes.
21:15		iblech	Aankhen``: No. There's a real OO in ext/Net-IRC/lib/Net/IRC-OO.pm, but I haven't tested the OO ver
21:15		Aankhen``	iblech >> OK.
21:16		Aankhen``	nothingmuch >> I just went with my spellchecker. :-)
21:16		nothingmuch	in that case i'll unspellcheck some stuff =)
21:16		Aankhen``	?eval "foo " ~~ m/ $/
21:16		evalbot6	Parrot VM: PANIC: Out of mem! C file src/memory.c, line 45 Parrot file (not available), line (not available)  We highly suggest you notify the Parrot team if you have not been working on Parrot.  Use parrotbug (located in parrot's root directory) or send an e-mail to perl6-internalsperl.org. Include the entire text of this error message and the text of the script that generated the error.  If you've made any modifications to Parrot, please describe them
21:16		Aankhen``	Bah!
21:16		pasteling	"putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "first working draft of bibliography" (42 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/10958
21:16		Aankhen``	Oops.
21:17		Aankhen``	Right, no pattern matching for evalbot6.
21:17		iblech	s/\.$/, because parrot exceeds the RAM limit/
21:18		Aankhen``	Yeh, I did the same thing earlier.
21:18		Aankhen``	My memory is a fascinating thing.
21:19		Aankhen``	Are all your modules on freepan for P6?
21:19		svnbot6	r8304, autrijus++ | * bump pdd04 to version 1.5.
21:19		svnbot6	r8305, bernhard++ | At the Austrian Perl Workshop it was reported, that the 'bc' config test
21:19		svnbot6	r8305, bernhard++ | hangs on Win32. So this check is now only performed on linux, as the output
21:19		svnbot6	r8305, bernhard++ | of the will only be used in a future 'languages/bc'.
21:19		svnbot6	r8306, mdiep++ | Start an extend.pod.
21:20		iblech	Err?
21:21		putter	autrijus: I'm just going to do a double check.  "S.P.Jones" ok, etc.  will ping.
21:21			rederik has quit IRC ("bye")
21:22		Aankhen``	?eval role Foo { }
21:22		evalbot6	undef
21:23		Aankhen``	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }
21:23		evalbot6	undef
21:23		autrijus	putter: I think I can stay up for maybe 38 more minutes :)
21:23		Aankhen``	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; my $foo is Foo; $foo.bar
21:23		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "i" expecting "=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
21:23			svnbot6 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:23		Aankhen``	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; my $foo does Foo; $foo.bar
21:23		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "d" expecting "=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
21:23		Aankhen``	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; my $foo; $foo does Foo; $foo.bar
21:23		evalbot6	Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "does" [Var "$foo",Var ":Foo"]
21:23		Aankhen``	Darn.
21:24			sapper has quit IRC ("(void)")
21:25			svnbot6 has joined #perl6
21:27		chip	You can't just say C<$foo does Foo>, can you?
21:28		chip	maybe C<my $foo of Any does Foo>
21:28		chip	eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; my $foo of Any does Foo; $foo.bar
21:28		Aankhen``	G'night.
21:28			Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Two heads are more than one! [Time wasted online: 5hrs 35mins 23secs]")
21:28		chip	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; my $foo of Any does Foo; $foo.bar
21:28		evalbot6	Error:  unexpected "o" expecting "=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
21:28		chip	hm.
21:29		chip	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; class Bar does Foo {}; my Bar $foo; $foo.bar
21:29		evalbot6	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bar"
21:30		chip	?eval role Foo { method bar { 42 } }; class Bar { does Foo }; my Bar $foo; $foo.bar
21:30		evalbot6	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&does"
21:30		chip	thought not
21:30		chip	the Any thing is silly
21:33			Pete_I has quit IRC ("Perl is cool! --")
21:34		chip	iblech: ping
21:34		iblech	chip: Pong
21:35		chip	Hm.
21:35		chip	I was about to make a feature request: only one karma bump per commit.
21:35		chip	But now I wonder ... maybe it's a good idea to encourage long commit messages.  :-,
21:36		chip	so ... n/m
21:36		chip	thanks
21:37		iblech	We had the same discussion here :) Our arguments for leaving it as it is were 1. long commit messages bonus, 2. vertical alignment (even if we s/\+\+/  /, the commit messages won't vertically align when seen in a proportional font)
21:38		putter	autrijus: pasted.  I yanked the month from subcontinuations because two seem to be in use (Feb and July).
21:38		autrijus	'k
21:38		autrijus	pasted?
21:39		putter	pastling seems slow... http://sial.org/pbot/10961
21:39		autrijus	putter: how do I use this?
21:39		autrijus	save it to pugs.bib
21:40		autrijus	that's all?
21:40		autrijus	do I need to say \cite or some such?
21:40		putter	\cite{*} just above the \bibliography
21:40		putter	oops,
21:40		putter	\nocite{*}
21:40		kelan	nothingmuch: thanks for your help. i understand how `interpret` with `local` is working
21:41		putter	complete:
21:41		putter	\nocite{*}
21:41		putter	\bibliography{pugs2}
21:42		putter	assuming paste is in a new file pugs2.bib.  it didnt look like pugs.bib was being used.
21:42		putter	k?
21:43		nothingmuch	kelan: goody!
21:43		nothingmuch	oh wow! i get to do 3 way diff-merge!
21:43		autrijus	putter: I went for direct citing
21:44		nothingmuch	Herkamire from #forth helped maked chapter 7 more grokkable, and Aankhen fixed some spelling errors
21:44		autrijus	works beautifully!
21:44		autrijus	putter++ !
21:44		* putter	would have chosen better ids... ;)
21:44		putter	weee.  that was fun. ;)
21:44			lightste1 has joined #perl6
21:45		autrijus	=)
21:45		nothingmuch	hola lightste1
21:45		autrijus	re-uploaded everything
21:45		autrijus	putter: check to see if it makes sense?
21:46		putter	I used the tar file you created... dont have feather access...
21:46		autrijus	oh oh
21:46		autrijus	check my journal
21:46		putter	k
21:48		putter	oh, note the tar'ed Makefile didn't automagically update ps and pdf... dont accidentally submit the wrong version! .)
21:48		autrijus	ok :)
21:50		nothingmuch	wow, darcs is so cool
21:50		xerox	Indeed!
21:51		nothingmuch	i love the way it handles conflicts
21:51		nothingmuch	with merge patches really being that
21:51		* putter	wonders why \keywords and \terms got trailing {} which werent in the sigplanconf template...
21:52			dkf has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:53			knewt_ has quit IRC ("offline; 9 hours till flight")
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22:03			dkf has joined #perl6
22:05		autrijus	putter: because I adopted this with the old hs-plugins tex
22:06		autrijus	but looks like it's still okay
22:06		autrijus	anyway. I'll sleep now
22:06		autrijus	happily we beat the deadline
22:06		autrijus	#perl6++
22:06		nothingmuch	ciao!
22:06		nothingmuch	huraah!
22:06		autrijus	I'll finally return to coding ;)
22:06		autrijus	two weeks is a bit too long
22:06		nothingmuch	sleep coding?
22:06		autrijus	I mean from tomorrow on
22:06		nothingmuch	sure...
22:06		autrijus	(although I think hw2005 really forced me to think things thru, so it was still worth it)
22:07		nothingmuch	where and when is hw going to be, btw?
22:07		autrijus	nothingmuch: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~daan/hw2005/
22:08		* autrijus	waves... &
22:08			_meppl_ has quit IRC ("quit")
22:10		putter	good night autrijus.
22:11		iblech	http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/pugs-macros.patch # As OpenFoundry is still down
22:11		iblech	Ok, work done, gonna sleep, too :)
22:11		iblech	Night #perl6
22:11		* putter	thinks "macros !?!" O.O ;)
22:12		iblech	Yeah, and the tests pass! :)
22:12		iblech	Anyway, sleep &
22:12			iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
22:15		wolverian	whoa iblechbot
22:15		wolverian	er
22:15		wolverian	iblech++
22:16		putter	something for the infinite todo list... an emacs p6 mode which hides sigils, colorizing symbols instead.
22:17			Boogie_ has joined #perl6
22:17		chip	putter: down that path lay ColorForth.  just make sure you've left a will.
22:17		* Boogie_	at home & going to bed. :)
22:18		nothingmuch	forth... MMM!
22:18		nothingmuch	otoh, colorforth and emacs share some qualities
22:19		putter	I noticed my ruby code is better abstracted than my p6, my p6 than my p5.  It appears I'm using visual complexity as a proxy for semantic complexity... so things dont get refactored as much.
22:19		nothingmuch	like being an OS with a language, an IDE, a UI, etc ... all at the same time
22:19		nothingmuch	putter: identify what parts of ruby give you that, and post to p6l?
22:26		Khisanth	there is also other things to consider, do you know p6 as well as ruby? :)
22:26		putter	yes, ColorForth was... amusing.
22:27			Boogie_ has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22:28		putter	nothingmuch: I think they are all known issues.  I wouldn't buy simpler syntax at the cost of simpler semantics.
22:29		putter	Though I expect p6 will get dialects which, for instance, try to make barewords scalars.  I almost never use explicitly name nonscalar variables anymore...
22:29		putter	Hmm, that may be a case of perl huffman encoding perhaps beginning to lag use...?
22:31		putter	Khisanth: re groking p6 vs ruby, true.  Also, I find myself pugs defensive.  If something misparsed without parens, even months ago, I use parens...
22:33		putter	An alternative to colorized idents might simply be less visually significant sigils.  Hmm, maybe perl-mode will let me use a different face for the sigils themselves.
22:34		putter	Though I've been burned a couple of times on ./foo vs .foo.  That could be nice in color, so i could see the patterns of usage within a class...
22:35		putter	aside from the cookbook, I wonder if we could use a style guide?
22:35			hsh has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
22:37		putter	nothingmuch: btw, I've really been enjoying harrorth.  Thanks! ;)
22:40		* nothingmuch	returns from shower
22:40		nothingmuch	barewords - i think I agree for module code
22:40		nothingmuch	but $foo is still highly identifyable to me (awk, bash, perl)
22:40		nothingmuch	so i'd actually like to keep it in "my" perl  6
22:40		nothingmuch	and in scripts i do find myself using @ a lot
22:41		nothingmuch	as for harrorth - that's wonderful news! appearently autrijus is enjoying it from a mentor perspective, and you, kelan and even leo are avid readers
22:41		nothingmuch	=)
22:42		putter	:)
22:43		nothingmuch	comments are very welcome, by the way
22:43		nothingmuch	feel free to swamp me with grammer fixes, semantic fixes, or suggestions for future directions
22:43			lightstep has joined #perl6
22:50		putter	'k
22:53			lightste1 has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
23:15		nothingmuch	anyone quick: http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/ <-- not updated because openfoundry is down?
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