Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 obra Test::Base::Yours::All, no?
00:00 autrijus :)
00:00 Odin-LAP A Perfect Circle did a cover which makes it quite a bit more clear. :>
00:00 Odin-LAP All::Your::Base
00:00 Odin-LAP ;)
00:01 Odin-LAP Are belong to us!
00:01 obra . o O { use IO::All qw/base/ }
00:01 obra That should, presumably turn all your filehandles into IO::All objects
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00:11 mugwump I thought the channel was a bit quiet
00:12 mugwump turned out to be a severed cable disconnecting most of the Wellington region connected via NZ Telecom, god bless 'em
00:12 bsb has left
00:19 meppl gute nacht  -  good night
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00:55 Darren_Duncan fyi, when testing 4860, results are: (1 subtest UNEXPECTEDLY SUCCEEDED) (887 subtests TODO), 386 subtests skipped.
00:55 Darren_Duncan Failed 20/338 test scripts, 94.08% okay. 152/6222 subtests failed, 97.56% okay.
00:55 Darren_Duncan this is the plain pugs, no Parrot in sight
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01:31 * autrijus waves &
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01:55 mugwump jabbot: seen evalbot6?
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01:56 jabbot mugwump: evalbot6 was seen 2 days 19 hours 20 minutes 32 seconds ago
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02:29 coral all done, thanks for the patience.
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03:38 redfish quick question from a recreational p6 porter: is the three arg form of split implemented in pugs 6.2.7?
03:39 mugwump passing a limit?
03:41 redfish yes.
03:41 redfish experimenting says no...
03:42 mugwump hmm, it's not even in S29
03:42 redfish I noticed that.
03:43 redfish I'm from a PM group that are thinking we will try to port XML::SAX::PurePerl as a challenge to get our p6 foo going...
03:44 mugwump ooo how about porting Perldoc instead?  It's called Perldoc but actually it's modelled after SAX
03:44 redfish yeah?  We are looking for something that can be split up nicely among 4-5 people...
03:45 redfish We picked XML::SAX because baud is a member of our group...
03:46 mugwump ok, well pull down Perldoc-0.10 from CPAN and decide for yourself.  It's pretty simple!
03:46 mugwump Plus I'd love direction and feedback from someone who's very familiar with SAX, eg currently the event names are all from SAX2
03:46 redfish Cool... I will.
03:48 redfish Here's a question -> porting use constant FOO => 9; to p6...
03:48 redfish I'm thinking either my $FOO is constant; or macro FOO() { 9 };
03:48 svnbot6 r4862, mugwump++ | Add limit to Str::split
03:50 redfish neither appear to work yet in pugs, though.  I'm a little confused by macro support in pugs.
03:51 mugwump there are only source-level macros at present, and those are new
03:52 redfish right.  and no 'is' traits yet?
03:52 redfish or properties
03:52 mugwump some traits have been implemented, but the general traits system is still a way off
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03:57 svnbot6 r4863, mugwump++ | Add (failing) test for 3-arg form of split
04:25 redfish is $! set by eval in pugs?  
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04:25 mugwump yes
04:26 mugwump used all over the test suite :)
04:28 redfish Ahh.  there we go.  Thanks.
04:29 redfish I think that the added challenge of determining whether something is unimplemented -vs- me being stupid makes this a little harder.
04:29 mugwump oh, sure.  that passes though.
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04:37 mugwump redfish, are you more interested in the regex/rule based 3-arg split or text-based?
04:37 svnbot6 r4864, mugwump++ | fix 3-arg split to test the right thing, also test string split
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04:51 svnbot6 r4865, mugwump++ | Implement 3-arg split (rx-only for now), update test
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05:16 svnbot6 r4866, mugwump++ | Implement 3-arg split (text-based), update test - still one outstanding test failure...
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05:44 mugwump redfish: ok, split with limit is in r4867 :)
05:44 svnbot6 r4867, mugwump++ | Finish case of split against empty string; add tests for it.  All forms of 3-arg split / 2-arg Str.split now working :-D
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06:21 masak I get an error when trying to compile pugs r4867:
06:21 masak it says /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.5/i386-linux-​thread-multi/CORE/reentr.h:611: error: field `_crypt_struct' has incomplete type
06:22 Darren_Duncan I"ll try it and gte back to you
06:22 masak oki
06:22 Darren_Duncan now compiling
06:22 masak hmm
06:22 masak maybe I need to upgrade perl5
06:22 masak or something
06:22 Darren_Duncan fyi, the previous 4866 compiled fine
06:23 mugwump you might need to `make clean', masak
06:23 masak i've been away and haven't compiled pugs for a week :)
06:23 Darren_Duncan I'm using system perl 5.8.1 and it has worked fine
06:23 masak mugwump: i deleted the source tree and svn re-upped, does that count :)
06:23 mugwump yeah that would do it
06:24 masak thought so
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06:24 masak it's a C error, right?
06:24 arcady yes
06:25 arcady I think it can't find some header file that it needs
06:25 masak so maybe I need to upgrade GCC
06:25 arcady that's not going to help
06:25 mugwump masak: unlikely gcc
06:25 masak hmm
06:25 Darren_Duncan make done without errors
06:25 arcady you probably just need to install the relevant header files
06:25 masak from where?
06:25 masak it's core
06:25 arcady whichever one it is that has _crypt_struct
06:26 masak :/
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06:26 arcady where does your perl5 come from?
06:26 masak I... I don't remember
06:26 mugwump do you have more than one perl5 installed?
06:26 masak it's a package i think
06:26 masak mugwump: no
06:26 masak probably an .rpm
06:26 mugwump are you building with PUGS_EMBED="perl5" set?
06:27 masak yes, I did
06:27 masak should I?
06:27 Darren_Duncan I'm not
06:27 masak ah, sorry
06:27 arcady well, it will work if you don't embed perl5
06:27 masak I'll try
06:27 masak now compiling
06:27 masak is perl5 support knowingly broken?
06:28 masak ah, now I see: it failed at "Compiling Pugs.Embed.Perl5"
06:28 masak silly me
06:28 masak seems to work fine now
06:29 mugwump strange error; perl5+parrot building is working for me, but I have a custom perl
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06:30 mugwump you need libperl of course, the -dev package (if any) and all the versions need to match up.
06:31 masak mugwump: i'm pretty sure i have libperl. i'll see about the -dev package
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06:33 svnbot6 r4868, chromatic++ | Fixed DESTROYALL:
06:33 svnbot6 r4868, chromatic++ | The fix in Pugs.Prim could use some refactoring.  Also, I sometimes now see
06:33 svnbot6 r4868, chromatic++ | GHC errors about entering EVACUATED objects.
06:33 svnbot6 r4868, chromatic++ | Fixed order of method invocation in BUILDALL and DESTROYALL (was backwards).
06:33 svnbot6 r4868, chromatic++ | Untodoed some tests in t/oo/destruction.t (and fixed the very broken ones).
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06:38 nothingmuch good morning
06:43 masak mornin'
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07:04 mugwump 'night all!
07:07 nothingmuch night mugwump
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10:14 Aragone is now known as Ara4n
10:39 autrijus rehi \camels!
10:40 autrijus I'm thinking of changing the name PAST to PIL (Pugs Intermediate Language) :)
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10:44 Ara4n just as long as you don't rename pugs to protor, that seems like it might be a good idea... :)
10:44 Ara4n (i wonder if M$ have trademarked 'IL')
10:50 mr_ank they have probably trademarked ILL though
10:51 * mr_ank dodges rotten tomatoes
11:01 Ara4n hehe
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11:19 autrijus :D
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11:38 Boogie Good afternoon! :)
11:38 Boogie Is there somebody, who can look after /t/unspecced/p5/return.t?
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11:45 svnbot6 r4869, autrijus++ | * squash some wanrnings.
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13:00 nothingmuch see you in canada, i think
13:01 nothingmuch unless there's wifi at the airport
13:01 nothingmuch or if i have lots of extra time
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14:20 svnbot6 r4870, autrijus++ | * clean some warnings
14:20 svnbot6 r4871, autrijus++ | * repair pugs -C tests.
14:20 svnbot6 r4871, autrijus++ | * Pugs.Compile.Parrot is now gone; -CParrot etc becomes an
14:20 svnbot6 r4871, autrijus++ |   alias to -CPIR etc.
14:20 svnbot6 r4872, autrijus++ | * adjust pugscc to play with the new PIR backend
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14:35 Limbic_Region anyone awake?
14:35 Odin-LAP No.
14:36 Limbic_Region hmmm - maybe it is better that way
14:36 Limbic_Region I ask a question - everyone that is sleeping will be tapping in to raw creative energies
14:36 Limbic_Region I will get great answers
14:37 Ara4n the only flipside is that the answers won't be filtered by normal conscious processes
14:37 broquaint Europe is awake, or at least "Monday awake".
14:37 Ara4n you're just as likely to get a pink unicorn as yet another backend for pugs
14:37 Juerd Yea, monday awake
14:37 Juerd I hate mondays.
14:37 Limbic_Region I am creating a "Time Capsule" project over at the Monastery - basically, solve a problem and don't look at the answer for some set period of time
14:37 Ara4n . o O ( tell me why... )
14:37 Juerd And it's fscking hot.
14:37 Limbic_Region this is going to mostly be fun for new Perl programmers
14:38 Limbic_Region but I was thinking about adding a p6 category so everyone could play (the seasoned professionals in mind)
14:38 Odin-LAP Limbic_Region: So they see how much their style changes?
14:38 Limbic_Region Odin-LAP - style as well as idioms
14:38 Odin-LAP Interesting idea.
14:38 * Limbic_Region avoiding map/unpack for a long time and now use it quite frequently
14:39 Limbic_Region anyway - the task(s) that one can choose from should be non-trivial and need the use of datastructures, looping constructs, several functions, etc - but not too hard (say circa 50 LOC)
14:39 Ara4n map can be very addictive :/
14:39 Limbic_Region any ideas for the p6 category?
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14:40 broquaint Perl6 Parser for Perl6.
14:40 Khisanth PPP?
14:40 Limbic_Region broquaint - in 50 LOC?
14:40 Odin-LAP Isn't that just writing PGE and and grammar? :p
14:40 broquaint The new system is pretty powerful, L~R ;) ...
14:40 Limbic_Region I was thinking hangman or AI Animals, or something like that
14:41 Odin-LAP (Note: The word 'just' has no place in that sentence.)
14:41 Limbic_Region perhaps I just open up the p5 projects to p6 (same task - different language)
14:41 Odin-LAP That's one option.
14:41 Odin-LAP Maybe not an insensible one. :)
14:41 Limbic_Region anyway - if anyone comes up with a good idea - /msg me here or at the Monastery
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14:52 broquaint Some of the non-expert qotws might be a good place to look, L~R.
14:56 Limbic_Region thanks broquaint
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15:30 nothingmuch seen autrijus
15:30 jabbot nothingmuch: autrijus was seen 4 hours 10 minutes 52 seconds ago
15:30 autrijus hi nothingmuch.
15:31 nothingmuch autrijus: my copy of algorithms still hasn't arrived... please brings yours to the hackathon so that I can at least read a tiny bit
15:31 autrijus nothingmuch: heh, I'm with zero my books
15:31 autrijus I'm in austria :)
15:32 nothingmuch i thought you'd bring them to austria =)
15:32 nothingmuch i always carry books around
15:32 autrijus I never do :)
15:32 nothingmuch stevan: please bring yours then
15:32 nothingmuch not computer books though
15:32 dmo has quit IRC ()
15:32 nothingmuch i don't have any computer books
15:33 nothingmuch also, if you'd like to meet up in toronto then feel free to mail
15:33 nothingmuch if I'm awake when I get there I'll try to contact
15:33 autrijus hrm.
15:33 autrijus I wonder if I should ask John to find me a host in .ca
15:34 nothingmuch well, in theory i could ask if you can lodge
15:34 nothingmuch these people have a big basement
15:34 nothingmuch that's where I stayed last time
15:34 autrijus but practically you'd like not to? :)
15:34 nothingmuch i'll just have to ask =)
15:34 autrijus because if I can stay at the place you're staying... then I can just wait in airport for you
15:34 autrijus thereby greatly simplifying things
15:34 nothingmuch that's a 10 hour wait
15:34 autrijus which, is fine by me
15:35 autrijus it's all just wallpapers.
15:35 nothingmuch heh
15:35 autrijus seriously. :)
15:35 nothingmuch okay, i'll call now, and mail too
15:35 nothingmuch in case I don't find them
15:35 nothingmuch i'm 90% sure they'll agree
15:35 autrijus okay, thanks! if you manage to confirm, please let John know
15:35 nothingmuch unless something comes up it should be fine
15:35 nothingmuch will do
15:35 dmo has joined #perl6
15:35 autrijus so that he won't spend more time calling other pmers
15:35 autrijus cool, thanks!
15:36 autrijus (nondeterministic routing)++
15:36 nothingmuch heh
15:36 nothingmuch i like it too, but i've never tried it on an int'l scale
15:36 nothingmuch only trains and busses
15:36 nothingmuch which is still pretty adventerous, given the fact that our public transportation pretty much sucks
15:37 nothingmuch (none on the weekends, nothing practical after 20:00)
15:37 autrijus ow.
15:37 nothingmuch very much so
15:37 nothingmuch i even slept in a park once
15:37 nothingmuch but that had nothing to do with public transportation
15:39 Boogie Juerd: ping
15:39 Juerd pong
15:40 Boogie Juerd: is it possible, that svn/svk has some problems, or changed @feather?
15:40 Boogie svk up does nothing for me.
15:40 clkao svk up -s
15:41 Boogie clkao: Waiting for mirror lock on /mirror/pugs: feather:26931.
15:41 Boogie clkao: Waiting for mirror lock on /mirror/pugs: feather:26931.
15:41 Boogie clkao: Waiting for mirror lock on /mirror/pugs: feather:26931.
15:41 Boogie clkao: etc.
15:41 scrottie has joined #perl6
15:42 clkao maybe someone is mirroring it, or maybe the mirror was fscked.
15:42 clkao you need to make sure that, and svk mirror --unlock //mirror/pugs
15:44 Boogie It seems, that it helped. Thx!
15:47 nothingmuch autrijus: i'll have an answer in an hour
15:47 nothingmuch i called them on the cell and there's bad reception, but they'll call me back
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15:50 autrijus 'k
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16:16 nothingmuch autrijus: answer is yes
16:16 vcv has quit IRC (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
16:17 autrijus nothingmuch: cool! the next question is, then, how do I spot you
16:17 nothingmuch malev flight 94 from budapest,
16:17 nothingmuch arriving in terminal 3 at 17:00
16:17 nothingmuch err, 17:50
16:18 nothingmuch people will be waving at me, one is called Sergio, the other is called Jennifer
16:18 nothingmuch and either or will be present
16:18 autrijus any, like, pictures?
16:18 nothingmuch i look like this:
16:18 autrijus I look like this: (^_^)
16:18 nothingmuch http://gallery.woobling.org/album49
16:19 nothingmuch http://gallery.woobling.org/album49/aaj <-- guy on the left
16:19 nothingmuch see also gpg key id
16:19 nothingmuch http://individual.utoronto.ca/stenenbaum/ <-- sergio
16:20 nothingmuch (images are not scaled)
16:20 autrijus on the left? the one with less entropic hair?
16:20 autrijus ok, I think I got it :)
16:20 autrijus thanks!
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16:20 autrijus so the plan is I'll also be there in terminal 3 and wave at you
16:21 nothingmuch okay
16:21 nothingmuch ii'll have a targus backpack, blue & black
16:21 nothingmuch i think i can recognize you, i've seen 2-3 pictures
16:21 nothingmuch i'll be wearing a light blue shirt and a pair of jeans or black cargo pants
16:21 nothingmuch and a beat up suite case, army green
16:21 autrijus I'll be with a pseudoapple asus computer.
16:21 autrijus so should be easy to spot
16:22 nothingmuch goody
16:22 nothingmuch worst case scenario: i'll call you
16:22 nothingmuch but I don't have a cellphone, so it will be after I land
16:22 autrijus I'm not sure I have a cellphone either.
16:23 autrijus I have one, but I'm not sure if it operates in .ca anymore.
16:23 autrijus so in worst worst case I'd need one of your friend's cellphone.
16:23 autrijus number, that is
16:23 nothingmuch okay, i'll fwd a mail
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16:24 nothingmuch hola lightstep
16:24 nothingmuch okay, sent
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16:25 autrijus dank
16:28 nothingmuch okay, i'm going to start packing
16:32 Limbic_Region autrijus and nothingmuch - you may have a bit of a problem
16:32 Limbic_Region if your flights are not in to the same terminal, you will likely be forced through customs and immigration to baggage claim
16:33 Limbic_Region unlikely they will let you back in through security to the other terminal
16:33 Limbic_Region at least - that's how it is in US
16:33 Limbic_Region but since nothinmuch said people will be waiving - autrijus could make it that far at least
16:33 * Limbic_Region shuts up now
16:34 autrijus right. the plan is for me to find the people who will pick him up
16:34 Limbic_Region sorry - I was just reading through the log getting caught up and my mind wasn't keeping up with my eyes
16:36 Limbic_Region when is the official start of the next hackathon anyway?
16:38 autrijus 60 hours from now?
16:38 autrijus not sure
16:39 Qiang welcome to toronto, autrijus :-)
16:39 autrijus whenever larry arrives... that's 4pm 22nd
16:39 autrijus Qiang: thanks :)
16:39 clkao autirjus has a phone!
16:40 Qiang autrijus: i can leave my cell # to u, in case you need some help
16:40 autrijus cool!
16:40 autrijus clkao: except soon to be invalidated by .ca's networks
16:40 Qiang autrijus: pm
16:41 autrijus :)
16:42 clkao autrijus: your ticket will be carried by stig. he will threaten you with that for some feature i suspect.
16:42 Qiang you will find a lot people here speak chinese in the hotel area :)
16:42 autrijus clkao: oh, my ticket has arrived?
16:42 clkao not yet.
16:42 autrijus I thought it won't be there till wed.
16:42 svnbot6 r4873, autrijus++ | * return() from subroutines now work in PIR.
16:43 autrijus and who is stig?
16:43 Limbic_Region obviously someone who wants a feature added to Pugs
16:43 Limbic_Region ;-)
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16:44 clkao autrijus: i reckon he will come to you, dont worry
16:44 autrijus mm Stig Brautaset
16:44 autrijus ah, the guy you brainwashed
16:45 autrijus into believing that you're a "very pleasant person"
16:45 autrijus Limbic_Region: I think it'd be SVK features then :) http://brautaset.org/index.html?id=329
16:46 clkao you don't think i am pleasant to work with? XD
16:49 autrijus "fun" yes. "exciting" definitely.
16:49 * autrijus has serious reservation about the pleasant bit
16:50 * Khisanth sets autrijus' unpleasant bit
16:50 clkao bwahaha
16:52 Odin-LAP 'Fun' and 'exciting' almost always exclude 'pleasant'.
16:54 Odin-LAP Hmm.
16:54 Qiang does it go the other way around? boring & pleasant
16:54 Odin-LAP A nice 'killer feature', though.
16:54 Odin-LAP "I know the author. He's a nice fella."
16:54 Odin-LAP :p
16:55 svnbot6 r4874, iblech++ | * Some work on ChangeLog.
16:55 svnbot6 r4874, iblech++ | * Emit.PIR -- Don't quote C<'>. Now C<say "hi'"> works as expected.
16:55 svnbot6 r4874, iblech++ | * Pugs.Compile.PIR, Emit.PIR -- Some more Haddock.
16:55 svnbot6 r4873, autrijus++ | * return() from subroutines now work in PIR.
16:55 lightstep has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:55 Odin-LAP Yeah. Like Arthur Dent. Whose friends thought of him as 'pleasant but dull'.
16:56 Qiang 42
16:56 Khisanth Odin-LAP: that sounds like a boring app
16:56 Odin-LAP Khisanth: Hm?
16:56 Khisanth "I know the author. He's insane." sounds MUCH better!
16:56 Odin-LAP Heh.
16:57 Odin-LAP It's not my words!
16:57 Odin-LAP Well. Yes, but I'm paraphrasing someone else. :p
17:02 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: we'll be arriving at the same terminal, and either way we'll be going to the getting picked up section of the airport
17:03 Qiang oh, this year dragon boat race is held on this weekend on central island. would be nice for the YAPC folks.
17:03 Qiang about 200 teams. http://www.dragonboats.com​/pages/dragonboat2005.html
17:07 nothingmuch autrijus: more physical disambiguation - 2nd generation iPod, etymotic headphones
17:08 nothingmuch black dr. martens, in surprisingly good shape compared to these:http://gallery.woobling.org/shoes
17:09 svnbot6 r4875, autrijus++ | * closures: my $x = { say 5 }; $x() ; $x()
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17:24 svnbot6 r4876, autrijus++ | * loop and bare blocks at value position now Really Works (tm).
17:25 autrijus $ ./pugs -BPIR -e 'sub foo { my $bar = { return 3 }; $bar(); die }; say foo()'
17:25 autrijus 3
17:25 autrijus :))
17:25 nothingmuch =)
17:29 spinclad_ is now known as spinclad
17:33 Limbic_Region is the die necessary?
17:34 Limbic_Region . o O ( and if it fails, does that make you immortal )
17:34 nothingmuch it never dies, that was the point
17:34 nothingmuch it returns
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17:34 Limbic_Region oh - I wouldn't have expected that at all
17:35 Limbic_Region if that had said return $bar(); die }; ... I would have expected that behavior
17:35 _mml i think the not dying is a bug.
17:36 Limbic_Region or if that had been my $bar is macro ...
17:36 _mml perhaps due to something mistaking $bar() for a tail call?
17:37 Limbic_Region dunno - but if that isn't a bug it isn't the behavior I would expect
17:38 wolverian _mml: no. 'return' skips bare blocks.
17:38 wolverian i.e. it returns from 'foo', not the bare block.
17:39 Limbic_Region wolverian - so that wouldn't have been the behavior it it had been written as
17:39 Limbic_Region sub foo { my $bar = sub { return 3 }; ....
17:39 wolverian Limbic_Region: yes.
17:39 Limbic_Region but by not having the sub keyword there it skipped it
17:40 arcady but it all makes sense
17:40 Limbic_Region ok - I can buy that as long as it is documented
17:40 arcady since you want to be able to return from inside a for or while
17:40 wolverian arcady: exactly. :)
17:40 wolverian Limbic_Region: see what arcady said. and you can use 'leave' if you want to exit the bare block
17:41 Limbic_Region makes perfect sense wolverian
17:41 wolverian I agree.
17:41 Limbic_Region the part that confused me was autrijus and others repeatedly telling me I could drop the sub keyword in my examples
17:42 _mml_ has joined #perl6
17:42 _mml hrm...
17:42 arcady and this is all documented in S06
17:42 Limbic_Region in only a few cases would that have been the right thing to do
17:42 _mml need t o read S06, then.
17:42 wolverian oh, and note that -> { ... } acts like a bare block in this regard as well
17:42 * Limbic_Region hasn't used pointy blocks in his examples, but sees how they would be useful now
17:43 wolverian you haven't used for ... -> { ... }? :)
17:43 Limbic_Region in any case - I just need to throw out the "you can drop the sub keyword if you want" cause you can't when you really mean sub
17:43 wolverian s,->,-> ...,
17:43 wolverian Limbic_Region: right.
17:43 Limbic_Region wolverian - I have used pointy blocks in looping constructs but not as bare blocks
17:44 Limbic_Region I still don't understand how pointy blocks work with while loops
17:44 Limbic_Region the response I got on the list left me with more questions than answers
17:45 _mml has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:46 * Limbic_Region goes to re-read it now to see if it makes more sense
17:46 arcady oh and apparently, a pointy block "does not require a preceding comma when included in a list"
17:46 arcady according to S06
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17:46 rjbs is there a good reason for that, I wonder?
17:47 arcady which I assume means that you can say map @list -> $foo { bar($foo) }
17:47 wolverian arcady: or s,map,for,!
17:47 arcady but you can already do that with for
17:47 arcady in fact you are not allowed to have the comma there
17:47 wolverian uh, for is not special in any way
17:47 arcady in pugs it is
17:47 wolverian I'm talking about S06, not pugs
17:48 arcady in that case, yes
17:48 arcady and pugs should probably try to present it as being consistent, even if internally it isn't
17:49 wolverian yes. does &*for do anything?
17:50 arcady nope
17:51 arcady but map is "sub map(@list, &sub)" or so, while for would be "sub for(*@list, &sub)" which is not currently legal
17:52 arcady or it might be, I haven't be following p6l for a long while now
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17:56 autrijus "you can throw out the 'sub' if you don't use 'return'"
17:57 autrijus arcady: hrm, maybe it's *@list, *&sub -- i.e. adverbial block
17:57 autrijus (pure speculation)
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17:59 Ara4n is now known as Aragone
18:00 * autrijus continues to plunge toward the goal of having "make smoke" running with -BPIR -- that's my self-imposed goal for the release
18:00 autrijus actually, if anyone has some tuit to hack in "make pirsmoke" and "make pirtest", that'd be cool
18:03 iblech autrijus: pugs -BPIR -we 'my $sub = -> $x { 1000 + $x }; say $sub(42)' -- known to fail?
18:04 arcady nothing with pugs -BPIR works for me...
18:04 wolverian agh why do people use $sub? &sub is much nicer.
18:04 iblech arcady: pugs -BPIR -we 'say 42' does not work? Parrot in path or embedded Parrot? What revision?
18:04 wolverian my &foo = { ... }; foo "bar";
18:05 wolverian (although 'my foo { ... }' is exactly the same.)
18:05 iblech my sub foo {...}
18:05 autrijus right, need the sub.
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18:05 wolverian oops. ye.
18:05 wolverian +s
18:05 arcady iblech it's fresh as of half an hour ago, and I think embedded
18:05 arcady it complains about Null PMC access
18:06 iblech Is your Parrot uptodate?
18:06 autrijus arcady: embedded is b0rken.
18:06 autrijus as is jit, and bytecode.
18:06 arcady oh, that explains it then
18:06 autrijus for largely the same reasons.
18:06 autrijus leo is fixing the runloop
18:06 autrijus -- actually rewriting --
18:06 autrijus and he says eta 60hrs from now
18:07 autrijus actually jit should be repaired now for some platforms
18:08 autrijus iblech: blocks currently takes no params
18:08 svnbot6 r4877, autrijus++ | * Pugs.Compile.Parrot.* is now gone.
18:10 iblech autrijus: Ah, ok
18:12 autrijus iblech: I'm thinkign this "use" business.
18:12 autrijus it seems to be that we either
18:12 autrijus 1. "use" as usual; then Test.pm's lexical pad needs to be reconstructed from the subPads
18:12 wolverian autrijus: is that ETA 60hrs wallclock time or 60hrs working time?
18:12 autrijus 2. translate "use" into some like of include, and put Test.pm's code inline then
18:13 autrijus wolverian: wallclock I believe, but not sure
18:13 wolverian right. thanks.
18:13 autrijus 3. upon seeing "use", turn the compiler into separate compilation mode and produce Test.pbc
18:13 autrijus and load it
18:13 autrijus comments?
18:16 iblech Question: 2. But the code would still have to be evaluated at compile-time, right? So a &use PIR sub wouldn't be of much help (but I probably misunderstood that)
18:17 autrijus use needs to be evalled at compile time using pugs's interpreter space
18:17 autrijus there's no doubt about that
18:17 autrijus think -BPugs
18:17 autrijus i.e. pugscc
18:17 autrijus which can handle -MTest
18:17 autrijus because all the `is export` subs from Test is serialised
18:18 nothingmuch wow, i'm such an efficient packer
18:18 nothingmuch too bad i suck at ironing
18:18 autrijus er, wow, I lie. it currently doesn't work anymore because the pad entries:
18:19 autrijus module Test; my $x; sub foo is export { $x }; sub bar is export { $x }
18:19 autrijus isn't preserved
18:19 autrijus so foo/bar doesn't see the same $x.
18:19 autrijus in -BPugs mode, that is
18:20 iblech Hm.. What would this some like of include look then? I get the problem, but not solution 2...
18:20 autrijus the solution 2 is to treat "use" as #include
18:21 autrijus and inject the parse tree from there
18:21 autrijus as part of the main Exp
18:21 iblech *understood*
18:21 autrijus which incidentally is trivially done with your macro stuff :)
18:22 iblech :)
18:22 autrijus this is again unspecced territory
18:22 autrijus so ideas, free associations etc welcome
18:22 iblech Ok, and then a question to 3.: First, Test.pm would be evaluated at compile-time using the interpreter mode, then all vars, subs, etc. are snapshotted and compiled to PIR and then to a PBC, right?
18:23 autrijus yes... it's essentially as if you ran pugs -CPIR on Test.pm
18:23 autrijus > Test.pbc
18:23 autrijus and then put "load_bytecode 'Test.pbc'" in init()
18:24 autrijus or something like that.
18:24 autrijus it will also be nice ot have "&eval" prim
18:25 autrijus (btw, the entire Prelude.pm is now in PIR)
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18:27 Limbic_Region autrijus - have you ever met $larry IRL?
18:28 autrijus Limbic_Region: sure, during oscons
18:28 autrijus never really talked with him though
18:28 nothingmuch i thanked him once
18:28 nothingmuch it was silly
18:28 autrijus I thanked him once too.
18:28 autrijus it was silly too.
18:28 nothingmuch thanked him for my bass, and my cameras
18:28 iblech Definitely! Then I think, as &eval is pretty important, esp. as you can have (limited) access to the interpreter mode of Pugs at runtime (eval "BEGIN \{ $code \}"), we should go for option 3. But I don't know how much harder it is to implement #3 instead of #2
18:29 autrijus iblech: it's not that hard, but needs some bookkeeping
18:29 Limbic_Region oh - was just wondering if the personalities at the next hackathon would naturally be synergetic
18:30 autrijus nothingmuch: I thanked him for introducing me to 1)Tolkien 2)Christianity
18:30 nothingmuch i think everyone is liberal enough for it to work out =)
18:30 Limbic_Region not exactly what I meant
18:30 Limbic_Region personality was probably not the right word there
18:31 Limbic_Region s/personality/work methods/
18:31 nothingmuch ah
18:31 autrijus we'll figure something out :)
18:31 * autrijus enjoyed working w/ chip and leo a lot
18:31 nothingmuch everyone is wiki head enough for it to work out =)
18:31 nothingmuch lets of "get it done" attitude people around,
18:31 Limbic_Region I didn't know about chip - but I certainly knew you would get a lot done with leo
18:31 nothingmuch and some really amazing minds
18:32 Khisanth nothingmuch: you went fishing with Larry?
18:32 iblech autrijus: Ok, then my vote is for option 3, and I'll try to help where I can :)
18:32 nothingmuch Khisanth: no
18:32 nothingmuch I met him at the italian code jam
18:32 nothingmuch and i thanked him for giving me perl which gave me the ability to be hired
18:33 nothingmuch despite the fact that I have no experience, academic merrit, or references
18:33 Khisanth so how did the fish get involved?!
18:33 nothingmuch fish?
18:34 Khisanth bass!
18:34 dmo has joined #perl6
18:34 nothingmuch oh!
18:34 nothingmuch bass as in Double Bass
18:34 nothingmuch the musical instrument that I'm not buying another plane ticket to carry with me to canada
18:34 nothingmuch http://doublebassforsale.free.fr/images/CB4.jpg
18:35 Khisanth hmm I would charge you two tickets for that :)
18:35 nothingmuch Khisanth: or I could rent a box for several hundreds of dollars
18:35 nothingmuch and then pay an extra cargo charge thing
18:36 nothingmuch or I could just rend one in canada for $25 a week
18:36 nothingmuch and then not have any time to play it
18:36 Khisanth btw, how is that thing standing up?
18:36 nothingmuch notice that the head is in contact with the wall
18:36 Khisanth it's that well balanced?
18:37 nothingmuch well, yeah
18:37 nothingmuch the head is quite thick (2")
18:37 nothingmuch and it's a heavy thing
18:37 nothingmuch so there's lots of pressure on it
18:37 nothingmuch i always put mine on the side though, too paranoid
18:38 nothingmuch or leaning in the corner, but in it' scase
18:38 nothingmuch err, "its"
18:38 nothingmuch (sorry Aankhen)
18:38 Khisanth just put it in the corner :)
18:38 nothingmuch no, it'll get scuffed and stuff
18:38 nothingmuch and revarnishing is very bad for the instrument
18:39 nothingmuch but with too much abrasion you need to do it eventually
18:39 nothingmuch for scale, btw, that thing is about 2 meters tall
18:40 Khisanth heh taller than me
18:53 autrijus PIR mode now has a primitive that Eval mode doesn't :D
18:53 autrijus it's the &leave builtin.
18:53 svnbot6 r4878, autrijus++ | * blocks can now return values: `my &x = { 3 }; say x()`
18:53 svnbot6 r4879, autrijus++ | * inline subroutine: `my &x = sub { return 3 }; say x()`
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18:55 Limbic_Region [14:53] <autrijus> PIR mode now has a primitive that Eval mode doesn't - dueling banjos anyone?
18:56 autrijus :D
18:56 autrijus now let's work with those pointy things...
18:58 * Limbic_Region keeps his pointy thing as far away from autrijus as possible not knowing what he might make it do
18:58 svnbot6 r4880, autrijus++ | * the "leave" builtin -- first builtin supported by PIR but not Eval?
18:58 svnbot6 r4880, autrijus++ |     my &x = { leave 3 }; say x()
18:58 Limbic_Region ok - enough bad humor - I am off
18:58 autrijus ciao, Limbic_Region
18:58 autrijus Limbic_Region: btw, you can use "leave" for return, as you've seen :)
18:58 Limbic_Region safe trip to any/all that are heading off to Toronto soonish
18:59 Limbic_Region right autrijus - I agree/like the behavior
18:59 autrijus so it's still kind of okay to ditch the leading sub.
18:59 Limbic_Region as long as you s/return/leave/ when you really mean leave
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19:05 Darren_Duncan autrijus, if you are indeed planning to roll a release today, then say so and I'll convert any failing LKT tests to TODOs or skips in preparation
19:06 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I'm planning to roll a release today. but I had not triaged your bugs, and I still may fix them
19:06 autrijus Darren_Duncan: if there are bugs you consider not worth fixing -- or indeed not pugs's problem, please skip/todo, but otherwise I'll handle them
19:07 Darren_Duncan okay
19:07 autrijus and sorry for the delay -- this segfaulting bird takes lots of time to tame :)
19:08 Darren_Duncan I thought you had higher priorities
19:08 Darren_Duncan so I was leaving be with the bugs I discovered
19:08 Darren_Duncan no sense in repeatedly bringing them up
19:08 autrijus right... 6.2.8 needs a working "make test" with pir to me
19:09 Darren_Duncan still, the 3 most current bugs affecting LKT have corresponding t/*.t, so if those pass then we're good to go
19:09 autrijus 'k
19:10 putter has joined #perl6
19:10 Darren_Duncan I'll leave you alone then ... ping if you want my attention
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19:12 svnbot6 r4881, iblech++ | Added tests for &leave.
19:14 nothingmuch has left
19:14 putter Well, I had an epiphany.  The flame of which landed on irc.perl.org's #perl6, and is thus consigned to the great bitbucket.
19:15 putter I've been off-and-on banging on perl6 rules.
19:16 putter You want something like rules in a language, you write parsers, and parsetrees, and tree nodes, and emitters for nodes, and classes to collect the emittions into something useable, etc.
19:16 putter p5 is a language
19:16 putter p6 isnt
19:16 putter we're in meta-language land.  prolog, haskell, etc.
19:17 putter macro inline:<|>($a,$b) {"try{$a}; try{$b} if failed;"}
19:18 putter sub term:<^>() {$_.pos == 0 or fail}
19:18 autrijus *Main> runPIR "say({3 + $^x}.(4))"
19:18 autrijus 7
19:18 _mml thus guaranteed a special corner in the language museum, reserved for cute, academic experiments?
19:18 putter etc.
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19:19 autrijus right. perl6 specialises in parse-level metaprogramming.
19:19 autrijus that is, at tokenisation level
19:20 autrijus whilst almost everything else works at AST level.
19:20 * putter soooooooooooooooo needs officemates and whiteboards... my designspace explorations just dont work otherwise. :--(
19:21 putter autrijus: ahhh, I hadn't thought of it that way.
19:21 putter neat
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19:22 putter _mml: prolog had a specific, limitted, computation model which prevented it from being a "general" programming language.
19:23 putter haskell, until historically recently (monads), was also very constrained.  and still perhaps has a somewhat high barrier to entry.
19:23 _mml and as we can see, i've totally mischaracterized haskell.  it's obviously catching on in some quarters.
19:23 svnbot6 r4882, autrijus++ | * parametric blocks now works as specced!
19:23 svnbot6 r4883, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText update : changed t/LKT_30_TrnMsg.t to skip all tests for release, citing Translator.translate_message() not implemented yet
19:24 Darren_Duncan so I todo'd the one test block that actually should not succeed ... the rest should work as is for the release
19:24 autrijus cool, thanks Darren_Duncan
19:24 putter p6... is the first meta-programming language extreme enough that one should be able to embed, whole hog, syntax, semantics, and runtime, other languages.
19:25 Darren_Duncan "should" as in when pairs.t and exists.t pass all their tests
19:25 * autrijus notes that ML was designed for that explicit purpose... hence its name
19:26 autrijus but yeah, p6 raised the metaprogramming level to an almost sentient degree
19:26 * putter wonders why ML didnt catch on...
19:26 _mml didn't catch on?
19:26 * autrijus notes OCaml and Haskell is doing fine...
19:26 _mml what autrijus said.
19:26 arcady it caught on enough for me to have to learn OCaml
19:27 putter for a rather non-change-the-world (yet) value of "catch on"
19:27 autrijus as in, still part of the long tail, you mean
19:27 autrijus that is undoubtedly true.
19:27 lightstep lisp has cgol
19:28 autrijus lightstep: indeed, and 16,384 similar things :)
19:28 Aragone gah
19:28 lightstep that was a reply to "embed, whole hog, syntax, semantics, and runtime"
19:28 putter p6 - noun.  The means by which ML took over the world.  See Brain, Pinky.
19:29 Aragone 90 minutes of 3-on-3 ultimate frisbee in 32 degree heat is tantamount to geeky suicide
19:30 putter For us unfortunates not attending Toronto... any idea what the logistics are?  Nightly syncs of the repository? ...
19:31 autrijus I have absolutely no idea until we meet John
19:31 putter k
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19:34 svnbot6 r4884, iblech++ | Makefile.PL, util/run-smoke.pl -- make pirsmoke.
19:36 autrijus ooh iblech++
19:36 autrijus pirtest too, please? :)
19:39 iblech Sure, if you tell me which file generates the "test" target :)
19:39 autrijus it's a MakeMaker thing, sadly
19:39 autrijus maybe have it call $(MAKE) test with some env?
19:39 autrijus not sure. don't waste too much time on it if it's a lost cause :)
19:42 autrijus hm, chip pmichaud and me will all be in hackathon
19:42 autrijus we should coordinate our Tuesday talk a bit
19:44 iblech autrijus: re. Ok, I'll leave that to Somebody Else then :)
19:50 autrijus :)
19:50 * autrijus meanwhile finished iteration.
19:50 autrijus moving on to other control structures...
19:50 * autrijus praises the power of abstraction and domain-specific languages
19:50 autrijus (PIL and PIR, in this case)
19:51 svnbot6 r4885, autrijus++ | * iteration!
19:51 svnbot6 r4885, autrijus++ |     for 1..10 -> $x { say $x }
19:55 * iblech gonna sleep and is eager to read tomorrow's/today's journal :)
19:55 putter autrijus:  pirtest: HARNESS_PERL_SWITCHES='-B PIR' make test
19:56 autrijus putter: please checkin :)
19:56 iblech That's all? Can't believe =)
19:56 iblech Night :)
19:56 putter once you _find_ a hook that works...
19:57 putter Night. :)
19:57 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
19:57 autrijus :)
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20:12 svnbot6 r4886, autrijus++ | * add some missing type sigs.
20:12 svnbot6 r4887, putter++ | Added target pirtest to Makefile.PL.
20:15 putter Is there a particular version of parrot against which we are testing...?
20:15 autrijus yes, trunk.
20:15 putter :)
20:16 autrijus we won't have 0.2.2 until yapc is over :-/
20:16 * autrijus ponders if we should enter ICFP contest with perl6.
20:16 autrijus it's just next week.
20:16 autrijus that sounds like certain suicide, but yet we have the entire YAPC::NA as brainpower
20:17 autrijus last year perl5 won the lightning division :)
20:17 svnbot6 r4888, autrijus++ | * while loop and until loop
20:17 svnbot6 r4889, autrijus++ | * squash another warning
20:17 autrijus (well, perl5 / m4 / c++ / java really)
20:18 autrijus (but the main division is all dominated by Haskell)
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20:23 putter re parrot version, I was thinking of some specific revision number.  so folks can use some known exercised version, rather than whatever has been most recently checked in.
20:25 autrijus given monthly release, that doesn't sound too attractive.
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20:26 putter k
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20:31 svnbot6 r4890, iblech++ | Makefile.PL -- Don't clean Parrot.hs*, as Parrot.hsc doesn't exist any more,
20:31 svnbot6 r4890, iblech++ | and tried to make putter++'s pirtest target work on Win32 (but I can't
20:31 svnbot6 r4890, iblech++ | check...).
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20:34 autrijus Parrot.hsc is still there no?
20:34 autrijus as Pugs.Embed.Parrot.hsc
20:34 autrijus we still need to clean them
20:34 autrijus please revert :)
20:35 putter Could someone with windows (assorted flavors) determine if the following works:  FOO='bar' cmd  , that is, setting the environment variable FOO to bar for the duration of command cmd?  Thanks.
20:37 wilx Nope, I don't think so.
20:39 putter is there an idiom?  or just OLD=$FOO\nFOO='bar'\ncmd\nFOO=$OLD
20:39 putter ?
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20:42 svnbot6 r4891, autrijus++ | * globals: @*ARGS, $*PROGRAM_NAME, $*IN, $*OUT, $*ERR
20:43 putter does PIR currently have a looping construct implemented?
20:44 autrijus loop(), while(), until() and for()
20:44 autrijus is all there.
20:44 wilx putter, http://www.microsoft.com/resources/​documentation/windows/xp/all/proddo​cs/en-us/ntcmds_shelloverview.mspx
20:45 wilx setlocal/endlocal
20:46 putter autrijus: with fresh parrot and pugs, I see Name '&statement_control:while' not found
20:46 putter wilx: thanks, looking...
20:46 dmo has quit IRC ()
20:46 autrijus putter: your pugs is ancient
20:47 autrijus putter: it landed well over 30 mins ago :)
20:47 putter oy
20:47 putter :)
20:47 svnbot6 r4892, iblech++ | Makefile.PL -- D'oh, just noticed *Embed*/Parrot.hsc is of course still
20:47 svnbot6 r4892, iblech++ | generated and thus needs to be cleaned in make clean (mixed Embed/Parrot
20:47 svnbot6 r4892, iblech++ | with Compile/Parrot)...
20:48 vel has left
20:48 putter by the time you compile it... it's obsolete. ;)
20:48 autrijus because we're a bunch of acceloraptors here!
20:48 putter well... "by the time you do a clean build, it's obsolete!"
20:49 putter ;)
20:49 * autrijus notes that PIR runs an infinite loop very fast
20:49 wilx This looks like it is worth looking at too: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtech​nol/Windows2000serv/support/FAQW2KCP.mspx
20:53 saorge has joined #perl6
20:53 putter wilx: I looked through it (FAQ), but didnt immediately see something apropos.  Did I miss it?
20:54 wilx Nope, just that it shows how to do some stuff using CMD.
20:56 Khisanth autrijus: that sounds like an oxymoron
20:56 * putter is tempted to punt w‌indows compatibility of "make pirtest"... windows users can always just set the harness flag environment variable themselves and simiply run make test...
20:58 putter Someone with a windows box could try editing Makefile.PL, using $OS or whatever it is (p5) to selectively generate appropriate code.  Hmm... or google to see if there is discussion of the issue?
20:59 putter I cant immediately think of one idiom which is os-independent.
21:00 _mml perl -e '$ENV{FOO} = "BAR"; exec("$ENV{MAKE} test")'
21:00 SamB has joined #perl6
21:00 _mml putter: the above, maybe?
21:01 _mml putter: except you'll have to change the ' to " and use something like qq() inside to get CMD compatibility, but that should work, eh?
21:02 autrijus I thought the setting of env is part of nmake language.
21:03 dudley has quit IRC ()
21:04 putter _mm++
21:07 autrijus bbiab...
21:07 * autrijus preemptively fills in a journal entry
21:08 putter ahh, working on pugs.  ^x^b Makefile.PL  Go to line to be changed.  Start edit.  File changed on disk, update from disk?  Yes.  Edit already done. ;)
21:09 autrijus lol :)
21:13 putter If shift() is _still_ undefined, I'll add it to the Prelude/PIR...
21:14 putter I wonder if we could get whoever runs svnbot to increase the reporting frequency...?
21:14 putter _mml++ # typo correction of _mm++
21:14 putter ;)
21:18 putter Hmm... It would be nifty if there was a read eval print loop for pugs -B PIR...
21:23 putter Name '$num_of_tests_planned' not found?
21:23 svnbot6 r4893, putter++ | Added shift() to Prelude/PIR.pm.
21:23 kungfuftr bah... more moaning about ./method() yargh
21:24 Khisanth ./method() certainly does look a bit weird
21:25 mugwump "terminally cute" was I think how Larry described it
21:25 putter Hmm... if one could do  macro bareword($x){"./$x"}  then folks could have all sorts of fun...
21:26 * Khisanth wonders how he just accidentally typed a ¿
21:26 kungfuftr i say... .damianisinsan^H^H^Hgod/method()
21:27 Khisanth what is ./method() suppose to mean anyway?
21:27 Khisanth it looks too much like a executing a program
21:28 kelan it calls the method in the current invocant
21:28 kungfuftr ie: $self
21:28 putter .foo == $_.foo  ./foo == $?SELF.foo   (i believe)
21:28 * Khisanth wonders why $self has to be the ugly one
21:28 _mml oh that is just too cute.
21:29 kelan i don't like the ./foo syntax. the slash looks like its separating the dot from the method name
21:29 kungfuftr then there's ../foo() too iirc
21:29 Khisanth and whatever happened to less line noise? :)
21:29 kelan makes it look different than every other method call, to me
21:29 kungfuftr kelan: IT'S SUPPOSED TO
21:30 putter hmm... depending on the macro evaluation spec, one might be able to swap them...
21:30 Khisanth kungfuftr: method calls aren't suppose to look like method calls?
21:30 kelan i agree with Khisanth. method calls should look like method calls
21:31 kelan i don't mean it makes it look like a different kind of method call
21:31 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:31 * putter now has his heart set on  macro bareword ...
21:31 kelan it makes it look *unlike* a method call
21:31 kelan like its doing something else
21:31 dmo has joined #perl6
21:31 kungfuftr kelan: and .: and .:: are any better?
21:32 Khisanth why the seperator thing?
21:32 putter Now, if we can just do  macro whitespace:<\n> ... we wont need to write _parsers_ for ruby/python, just...
21:33 putter ;)
21:33 kelan kungfuftr: yes because the colons are made of dots, although i don't particularly like those either. but better than ./
21:33 kungfuftr Khisanth: .foo is a method call on the current thing that's in $_... the seperator is to call it on $?SELF which may not be the same as $_
21:33 dmo has quit IRC (Client Quit)
21:33 kelan what i would prefer most is what almost every other OO language does: have a short keyword that means self
21:33 kelan like `me` or `self`
21:34 kungfuftr kelan: this is perl... not ruby!
21:34 kungfuftr *slap*
21:34 kungfuftr =0)
21:34 kelan right, this is perl, so lets use ugly and unintuitive punctuation instead of meaningful names
21:35 kungfuftr kelan: damn straight
21:35 putter kelan: macro self(){"$?SELF"}  done.
21:35 Khisanth kungfuftr: my main issues with that is 1) I am trying avoid having to constantly retype the seperator 2) I also want to avoid constantly assigning to $_ 3) 2 can be solve by never using $_ except for storing $self but then there would be no point in having $_
21:36 kungfuftr Khisanth: foreach(@list){ .say }
21:36 gander has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:37 kungfuftr s/each//;
21:37 Khisanth sure if I always have a list of objects :)
21:37 putter macro infix:<\n>($lines_before,$lines_after){...} ?
21:38 Khisanth for ($foo) { .say } is something I would expect for Perl 5
21:38 kungfuftr Khisanth: everything in perl6 is an object
21:39 kungfuftr "Hello World".say
21:39 * putter is writing splice()...
21:40 * Khisanth starts having nightmares of Perl 6 resembling Java
21:40 arcady Java's main problem is that it makes you write too much crap
21:40 Khisanth everything is an object but use of OOP is discouraged? :p
21:40 arcady and anyway, in java not everything is an object
21:41 arcady such as fuctions and classes
21:41 arcady also, Java is not an object
21:41 Khisanth arcady: but the whole nightmare is having to write too much crap, not that everything is an object
21:42 arcady and perl is exactly the opposite of writing too much crap
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21:43 * Khisanth wonders about the hoop jumping to call a method
21:43 arcady $object.method(args)
21:43 arcady or method $object: args
21:45 arcady also, attribute accessors are automatically generated for you
21:45 arcady no need to make a getFoo() and setFoo() for every foo in your class
21:48 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
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21:56 Khisanth hmm
21:56 Limbic_Region putter - just reading through the logs and noticed the question on how to set an env var in Win32 - use set
21:56 Limbic_Region set foo=bar
21:57 Khisanth kungfuftr: so for @array -> $element { .method() } would not DWIM?
21:58 revdiablo Khisanth: I think it would, unless something drastic has changed recently
21:59 putter Limbic_Region: someone remembered the portable perl makefile idiom of \$(PERL) -e "now in portable perl land, set env and call system()"
21:59 putter tnx.
21:59 revdiablo Khisanth: though I guess it depends on what you mean :)
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22:03 Khisanth revdiablo: if .method always means $_.method() then it would not
22:04 dudley has joined #perl6
22:05 Limbic_Region right putter - I saw that as I continued in the log
22:05 * Limbic_Region must eat now
22:05 revdiablo Khisanth: what behavior is WYM?
22:05 Limbic_Region wave &
22:05 Khisanth revdiablo: call the method for each item of the list of course :)
22:06 arcady for @array { .method() } does that definitely
22:06 kungfuftr Khisanth: you're explicitly stating an alias there... so if it's DWYM... then your logic would be in correct
22:06 revdiablo Khisanth: so '.method()' should default to the first argument of the block, or something?
22:06 revdiablo s/default to/use/
22:06 arcady actually, the logic there would be that $_ is still used
22:07 arcady and is an alias for the first argument of the block
22:07 kungfuftr you can't type random garbage into a computer and expect it to do work, retardo </endquote>
22:08 revdiablo arcady: yeah, that might be reasonable, as long as you don't mind $_ being clobbered constantly (which is something I generally assume will happen, anyway...)
22:08 Khisanth sure but I also don't expect a language to encourage to me to write unclear code
22:08 Khisanth I think you would be the first to kill me if I were you coworker and I use $_ for everything :)
22:08 arcady what you wrote is unclear
22:08 revdiablo for @array -> $element { $element.method() } # unclear?
22:08 arcady revdiablo's version is way more obvious
22:08 _mml has quit IRC ()
22:09 arcady why have an $element argument that is magically used though you never mention it again?
22:09 kungfuftr arcady: my point exactly
22:09 arcady for @list -> $a, $b { .method() }
22:09 arcady what then?
22:09 Khisanth revdiablo: ah you see my whole point is why "waste" a perfectly good .method on something that I see as being less likely to be used :)
22:10 revdiablo Khisanth: well,  for @array { .method() }  would still DWYM
22:10 revdiablo Khisanth: doesn't seem like a waste to me, *shrug*
22:10 kungfuftr reduces line noise
22:10 arcady in fact there's a neat idiom that the current .method() syntax makes possible
22:11 revdiablo how about:  for @array -> $element { given $element { .method() } } # snicker
22:11 arcady given($object) { call lots of methods on it }
22:11 Khisanth revdiablo: but that form is rather undesirable for a loop with more than one or two statements
22:11 kungfuftr Khisanth: then use give an explicit pointy
22:12 kungfuftr _pragmatism_
22:13 arcady Khisanth what you're looking for is the dwim() function
22:13 kungfuftr dwim_not_what_i_think_i_said()
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22:38 Khisanth arcady: then all discussion is pointless and loop { dwim() } would be a solution to everything and ... all programmers would be out of work :)
22:38 nothingmuch perl -e "";
22:38 nothingmuch taxi gets here in an hour
22:38 nothingmuch after that I have 24 more waking hours, bare minimum
22:39 nothingmuch i'm already tired
22:39 nothingmuch =(
22:39 kungfuftr good job i've also got sysadmin in my list of coporate experiences
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22:42 nnunley has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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23:07 Limbic_Region wholly cow
23:07 Limbic_Region I was just running pugs -CPIR on one of the examples
23:07 Limbic_Region it was giving some undiscernable error before
23:07 Limbic_Region but now it is a whole lot of PIR
23:08 coral is now known as crysflame
23:08 crysflame is now known as coral
23:15 arcady has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:16 nothingmuch has quit IRC ()
23:21 putter nothingmuch: have a good trip!
23:21 putter to all travelers. ;)
23:23 Juerd and LSD users
23:39 cognominal has joined #perl6
23:39 svnbot6 r4894, putter++ | Added a draft of splice() to Prelude/PIR.pm.  It is untested, apparently triggering (execution) bugs in both PIR and regular pugs.
23:45 arcady has joined #perl6
23:45 svnbot6 r4895, putter++ | quickref/namespace correction.
23:45 svnbot6 r4896, putter++ | Removed obsolete/incorrect other/rules_bootstrap. (author)

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