Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:44 kelan ?eval 1+1
01:45 QtPlatypus Eval bot is dead kelan
01:46 kelan oh?
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02:34 geoffb Re: the "usual SVN properties" -- I have another project that I have just moved to SVN, that should work on both *nix and Win32.  Is there any reason not to just apply the same SVN props as we use here to basically every non-binary file?
02:35 mugwump sure, if you have mixed win32/unix devs and prefer utf-8
02:35 geoffb Meaning "sure, it's the right thing to do"?
02:36 mugwump Āŷĕ
02:36 geoffb OK, wheee
02:36 geoffb Now to update properties on 160 files . . . .
02:41 Darren_Duncan you should just use utf-8 everywhere regardless of platform
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06:23 nothingmuch evening from the hackathon
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06:44 Darren_Duncan good evening to you too
06:44 Darren_Duncan checking journal ...
06:45 Darren_Duncan I noticed no svn commits since this morning or earlier
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06:45 Darren_Duncan no journal ... maybe another time
06:45 Darren_Duncan good night
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07:10 nothingmuch_ which means the commit should start momentarily
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08:50 nothingmuch foo!
08:52 broquaint bar!
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09:11 nothingmuch good night good people of the world
09:26 Juerd Is being able to init a hash with a hashref a bug?
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09:26 Juerd It certainly ought to be, because a hashref is a valid hash key.
09:27 broquaint Is it not magically deref'ed in list context?
09:27 Juerd No
09:28 Juerd References may never deref in list context or generic scalar context
09:28 Juerd Dereffing can only happen with explicit use-as-array or use-as-hash
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09:29 Juerd %hash = { 1 => 2 } should set %hash{ { 1 => 2 } } = undef
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09:32 broquaint Fair enough. Sounds like a bug.
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10:12 arcady I'm not so sure it's a bug
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10:15 arcady oh, wait, it is
10:15 arcady %hash = [ 1, 2] also does the same thing
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13:07 pdcawley ?eval sub foo { my $x = 1; return sub ($codestring) { eval $codestring } }; foo()("$x")
13:08 broquaint I think the evalbot is down atm.
13:09 pdcawley Yeah, I guessed that. Just tried it on feather instead.
13:10 broquaint This looks to work as expected: sub foo { my $x = 1; return sub ($codestring) { eval($codestring).perl.say } }; foo()(q[$x])
13:10 Juerd What was expected?
13:11 broquaint To return the value of $x
13:11 Juerd I see.
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13:11 Juerd I think it should by default not work
13:12 broquaint Why is that?
13:12 Juerd It kind of defeats the purpose of having a garbage collector.
13:12 broquaint ?
13:12 pdcawley I'd disagree, you know lexically that you've got an 'undecided' scope down there, so for that function you hang onto the entire lexical stack.
13:13 Juerd pdcawley: Because of the eval? Or always?
13:13 Juerd I can live with smart detection of things that eval
13:13 pdcawley Because of the eval.
13:13 Juerd But not if that is taken to extremes: calling another sub that evals, which could in theory try to access $CALLER::x
13:14 Juerd Although it will be weird to have code that starts working when you add eval ''; :)
13:14 Juerd I'm not sure what I think of this
13:14 Juerd The impact of deep analysis is huge, but it would be needed to avoid weirdness
13:15 pdcawley I'm not sure what GC has to do with anything tbh.
13:15 pdcawley At least, not in that example.
13:15 pdcawley Actually, no, tell a lie.
13:15 Juerd If variables are held onto, they cannot be destroyed.
13:16 pdcawley Until the instance of teh sub that's holding onto them is itself destroyed.
13:16 Juerd That is true, but that can take a very long time.
13:16 pdcawley And that's a problem to someone writing that kind of code because?
13:17 pdcawley If you're writing that it's because it's precisely what you want.
13:17 Juerd Because my values are often 100 MB.
13:17 Juerd One little string eval used as a shortcut could severely fuck up memory usage for the kind of scripts I use.
13:17 Juerd I'm not sure I like the idea of big red flags with every single string eval, as in PHP.
13:18 pdcawley Juerd: But things like that are only going to be seriously long lived when you do &whatever := func_that_returns_a_func.
13:18 pdcawley Remember, you don't start holding onto the stack until and unless you call foo.
13:19 Juerd Or put them in a hash for much later use.
13:19 Juerd Which I tend to do. I use anonymous subs all over the place. I like working with them.
13:19 pdcawley Anon subs with evals in them?
13:19 Juerd I admit that I don't usually combine these two things: string eval and storing closures
13:19 pdcawley And you're stashing them with side effects?
13:19 Juerd But I do use both, and often too, so it's bound to happen.
13:19 pdcawley How very impure of you.
13:20 Juerd Not always side effects
13:20 pdcawley Stashing them in a longlived hash smacks of side effects to me.
13:20 Juerd The problem is that Perl can't see that eval "$integer1 / $integer2" is in fact rather pure -- it has to account for $integer1 being a string that uses a variable.
13:21 pdcawley Yeah. Great isn't it?
13:21 Juerd No, not really.
13:21 pdcawley All htat means is that every sub in that sub's lexical chain (not dynamic) needs to close over everything.
13:22 Juerd Which may mean my 100 MB variable is closed over without any chance of it ever being needed. That's a terrible waste of memory.
13:22 pdcawley Then write your code more carefully.
13:22 Juerd In general, if extra memory can be used to gain some speed up, I'm all for it. But this is waste.
13:22 Juerd I don't always want to write code carefully. That is WHY I like Perl.
13:23 Juerd It lets me code carefully, when I want that.
13:23 Juerd But is still the useful fast tool if I don't.
13:23 Juerd I'm not in the "if you code sloppily, every bit of slowdown is your own fault" camp
13:24 pdcawley I'm not in the 'closing down useful possibilities in order to chase performance' camp either.
13:25 Juerd We don't have string eval to code carefully. It's there especially for the people who don't care much about purity, because they can sometimes cut a few corners and be home earlier.
13:25 pdcawley That's something the programmer should be doing, not the language.
13:25 pdcawley Disagree, very strongly.
13:25 Juerd pdcawley: The problem with this is that analysis is expensive. You can't just look for eval, you also have to look for my_eval, that uses eval.
13:25 Juerd Which means that in practice, every single sub needs to have a flag that says wether it uses something that is flagged.
13:26 pdcawley But you know the lexical structure at compile time. This has nothing to do with the dynamic structure.
13:26 Juerd Which can result in numerous subs being tainted in the way that using it will cause the enclosing block to close over the entire lexical scope, which is a slowdown at very great distance.
13:27 Juerd This isn't a bug you could easily find even if you wanted to.
13:27 pdcawley What on earth do you mean 'using them'?
13:27 Juerd I think there should be a way to close over everything, but never this implicit.
13:28 pdcawley The only time it's going to crop up is when you *write* a function.
13:28 Juerd pdcawley: foo calls bar, which calls quux, which calls xyzzy, which calls Some::Module::blah, which calls Other::Module::whee, which calls YetAnother::Module::blergh, which evals a string.
13:28 Juerd pdcawley: Now foo is as eval, in that when it is used, perl must close over all variables in scope.
13:28 Juerd pdcawley: Because miles away, something evals, which could use $CALLER::CALLER::CALLER..::x
13:29 pdcawley And which has no effect on teh lexical state of bar, quux, xyzzy, Some::Module::blah, or Other::Module::whee.
13:29 Juerd Now, if I use foo in the closure that I return from a sub that also gets a huge variable, the variable is kept, even if it will never be necessary in YetAnotherModule::Blergh's eval
13:30 Juerd And all that because one module author of code I presumably neither wrote nor read cut a corner by using eval.
13:30 Juerd Good luck figuring out why your program performs so badly...
13:30 pdcawley To even begin to implement your straw man you have to solve the halting problem. That's not what I'm proposing.
13:31 Juerd I'm saying that if you want eval '$x' to work, you should somewhere draw the line, and that that line is CALLER. If you also want '$CALLER::x' to work, you lose a terrible amount of efficiency.
13:31 pdcawley Or you say "This is a language where we value that, turn it on for everything".
13:32 Juerd So the purity and predictability must be broken somewhere in order to avoid greater problems.
13:32 pdcawley Full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes.
13:32 Juerd pdcawley: I don't think enabling it for everything is an option even, if we want Perl to ever be recognised as a smart and efficient language.
13:33 Juerd So half-enabling and not-enabling are the things I'm personally trying to choose from, and I tend to choose not-enabling by default, with some option of half or fully enabling.
13:34 Juerd (If it were up to me, CALLER:: would be enterily illegal outside signatures)
13:34 pdcawley Argh. Actually, I used Perl as the pseudocode for something I'm arguing that Parrot must support; the CALLER thing should come fenced about with "Using this is as bad as using $& was in Perl 5 days!" warnings.
13:34 pdcawley Juerd: I like it for weird introspective and macroy ideas.
13:35 Juerd I agree that CALLER is a problem. Still, it is specced, and we need to work around problems it creates.
13:35 Juerd pdcawley: Then if you need it, you can specify that in the signature :)
13:35 Juerd But never ever in any eval :)
13:35 pdcawley Illegal outside macros and signatures I could go with -- you can always write a macro tweaks the signature.
13:35 Juerd And CALLER::CALLER:: is just waaay to horrible to even think about, for me :)
13:36 pdcawley Right. Must. Write. Summary.
13:36 Juerd Have fun
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13:41 svnbot6 r4917, iblech++ | Prelude::PIR -- Unbroke &sleep and &exit (was broken because of the recent
13:41 svnbot6 r4917, iblech++ | Pugs::Internals -> Perl6::Internals name change).
13:45 masak Juerd: I must admit that I'm on your side in this issue. I think the analysis required for it would be too hairy.
13:47 autrijus greetings lambdacamels!
13:47 pdcawley Hi autrijus.
13:47 autrijus we have network!
13:47 PerlJam greets autrijus
13:48 PerlJam autrijus: who are "we"?  :)
13:48 autrijus people who have network, of course
13:49 * PerlJam patiently waits for someone to prod lwall into joining #perl6
13:49 autrijus lambdacamels, please check this for insanity
13:49 autrijus http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/perl6-as-of-20050623.txt
13:49 autrijus before I rip the relevant parts of pugs out
13:50 autrijus (based on discussion with lwall last night -- but we didn't have network so I didn't get to upload it)
13:51 PerlJam autrijus: prefix:<=> is .shift ?  That seems odd.
13:51 * integral likes the bits he understands
13:51 autrijus PerlJam: it's a destructive update on an iterator
13:51 autrijus (in item context)
13:51 autrijus for =@array { ... } ; # @array is empty after this
13:52 integral Does the Any change mean that: sub foo (Any $a) { ... } no longer autothreads?
13:52 PerlJam And we use the slurpy variant when we don't want destruction?
13:53 autrijus er, no, slurpy context prefix:<=> is also destructive...
13:53 autrijus it's more like splice(@x, 0, -1)
13:53 autrijus but now splice also preserves generators
13:53 PerlJam So I have to somehow explicitly declare an Iterator (or just copy the thing) if I don't want destruction?
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13:54 autrijus if you don't want destruction... drop the = :)
13:54 autrijus for @array { ... }
13:54 pdcawley I'm unsure about the my thing.
13:54 autrijus pdcawley: it's conforming to the spec
13:55 autrijus almost too literally.
13:55 PerlJam autrijus: oh duh.  I was getting hung up.
13:55 pdcawley But it can be worked around I'm sure.
13:55 autrijus my $x; { say $x; $x += my($x) * $x if $x; }
13:56 autrijus here the first three $x (lexically) are the same
13:56 * pdcawley was thinking of the classic sub is_odd { $^a == 1 || is_even($^a - 1) }; sub is_even {...} type thing.
13:56 autrijus and the last three $x are the same.
13:56 pdcawley Eew!
13:56 pdcawley And bugger me but that's bad and evil code.
13:56 autrijus but the third $x is "erroneous"; we may or may not actually support it. if not supported, that'd give an error.
13:57 autrijus integral: right, sub foo ($a) now means
13:57 autrijus sub foo (Item $a)
13:57 autrijus and the top type Any is divided into Item and Junction
13:58 * pdcawley has been thinking idly about dependency injection... I want to write UtilityClass.new in my 'client' code and have my application framework decide that, today, UtilityClass is actually implemented using ThisSpecificUtilityClass.
13:58 pdcawley Which is tangential, and I'm supposed to be writing the summary.
13:58 * integral keeps thinking of "Knit" when things like pdcawley's are mentioned
13:59 PerlJam I always think of summarys when pdcawleys are mentioned  ;-)
14:00 Arathorn autrijus: in the my() example above, wouldn't the final $x be from the outer block's scope?
14:00 Arathorn despite being physically placed at the end of the line, wouldn't the if-clause's condition be evaluated before the left-hand-side?
14:00 autrijus Arathorn: I'd expect that too
14:01 autrijus but larry sort of insisted on the strict lexicalness.
14:01 autrijus i.e. it doesn't have anything to do with eventual evaluation order
14:01 Arathorn but only the physical position in the file
14:01 Arathorn that's diabolical, imo :\
14:01 autrijus it does make it easier to explain.
14:02 integral hmm, but what about: my $x = 5; { my $x = $x } ?   Isn't a strict left-to-right reading mean that this doesn't work?
14:02 autrijus integral: yeah, you'd have to say $OUTER::x. that's in the spec
14:02 pdcawley Well put that man!
14:02 pdcawley Ghod but that's ugly.
14:02 integral oh.  That makes me sad. :-)
14:03 autrijus beginning of S04
14:03 autrijus but consider:
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14:03 pdcawley my $x = 5; { $x ==> my $x } ?
14:03 autrijus pdcawley: amazingly that works
14:03 autrijus my $y = my($x) zor $x;
14:03 autrijus now zor's evaluation order is unspecified
14:03 autrijus maybe it evaluates the second argument first.
14:03 autrijus you don't know.
14:03 autrijus so that's the argument for strict lexicalness.
14:04 integral hmm, is the old rule of declaration only taking effect after the statement too confusing?
14:04 Arathorn are there any other pseudo-functions like my() whose behaviour would depend on their physical lexical position rather than their position in the parse-tree had they been a real function?
14:05 autrijus integral: it was my second alternative but larry struck that down as well... because following that rule you get unspecified intra-statement results
14:05 autrijus my $x if 0;
14:05 autrijus Arathorn: those are called scope declarators... currently in PIL there are only three special forms that is not function application:
14:05 autrijus assignment, binding, scoping
14:05 integral hmm, how does this new rule fix that?
14:06 PerlJam Are there any other languages that adhere to such strict lexicalness in declaration?
14:06 Arathorn right
14:06 autrijus PerlJam: actually, most languages do, where they are known as the let-forms
14:06 autrijus and they are bound strictly lexically without regard to the evaluation order also.
14:07 Khisanth hmm ugly but who in their right mind would write code like that? :)
14:07 pdcawley autrijus: Woo!
14:07 pdcawley PIL sounds promising.
14:08 autrijus pdcawley: see src/Pugs/Compile.hs
14:08 autrijus line 30 to 51 contains the entire spec of pil (For this moment)
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14:11 pdcawley I will. But not 'til I've finished the summary.
14:12 Arathorn hm, when you for @x -> $y {} # the $y is implicitly lexically scoped, right?
14:12 pdcawley BTW, do we have full continuations yet? I want to solve that sudoku.
14:12 pdcawley Arathorn: It's a parameter in the block, and lexically scoped to that, yes.
14:12 Arathorn pdcawley: a sudoko solver using proper continuations would def be very nice evangelism example :)
14:12 Arathorn right
14:13 autrijus pdcawley: let me see if i can compile it to PIR today
14:13 pdcawley Arathorn: It's a horribly inefficient brute force thing, but it should work.
14:13 pdcawley Once the core is working I'll see about adding the shiny interface.
14:13 pdcawley The code is gloriously declarative.
14:14 pdcawley NonDeterministic programming makes me happy.
14:18 theorbtwo Greetings from the hackathon, BTW.
14:18 Juerd 15:51  * PerlJam patiently waits for someone to prod lwall into joining #perl6
14:19 Juerd PerlJam: TBH, I don't think that would be a great idea. Many ideas need to be discussed long before decision makers see them.
14:19 theorbtwo The connection here sucks, so don't expect it in the next three days.
14:20 * stevan is shocked to see autrijus did not take his laptop into the shower
14:20 rjbs he did, but he's playing solitaire
14:20 theorbtwo Nah, it's on the table next to me.
14:20 ihb Juerd: "TBH"?
14:21 Khisanth to be honest
14:21 theorbtwo We managed to get through a lot of corneer cases last night, though.
14:22 vcv-- has joined #perl6
14:22 ihb Khisanth: danke.
14:22 theorbtwo (Not that I actually understood many of them, but...)
14:22 Arathorn cana nyone point me to the right apoc/synopsis number for a discussion of how the -> bind operator thingy works?
14:22 * Khisanth wonders how autrijus has been able to avoid electrocution with the laptop in the shower
14:22 Arathorn ('cos it don't seem to be in [AS]0[1-4])
14:23 theorbtwo It's defined to work just like sub, except when it doesn't/
14:23 QtPlatypus I thought that -> was a sub
14:23 Arathorn ah, found it in S06
14:23 Arathorn bingo - thanks :)
14:24 pdcawley my $a = 10; my $c = 30; my $b := $a; $a := $c; say $b;
14:24 pdcawley What should that print out?
14:27 PerlJam 30
14:27 theorbtwo Yeah.
14:27 pdcawley Exactly. So Brent's wrong about 'alias' being spelled ':=' in perl 6.
14:30 nnunley_ has joined #perl6
14:30 svnbot6 r4918, iblech++ | Emit.PIR, Prelude::PIR -- &eval_parrot (but Parrot segfaults when trying to
14:30 svnbot6 r4918, iblech++ | invoke a sub compiled at runtime).
14:30 Juerd autrijus: How do levels work as in "0-level" for deref?
14:31 pdcawley Oh fsck! 132 more messages in p6l before I've done this summary.
14:31 autrijus Juerd: oh, it just means there's no autodeferencing anymore.
14:31 autrijus dot explicitly dereferences
14:31 Juerd autrijus: But there is for coercion, right?
14:31 theorbtwo (There's still autoENreferenceing on %.foo.)
14:31 autrijus bracketlikes eg $foo[0] is merely shorthand for $foo.[0]
14:31 Juerd ~$aref and ~@array
14:31 autrijus @foo.[0] auto-enreferences @foo into something.
14:31 Juerd That I know
14:32 autrijus so it'd be in effect the same as (\@foo).[0]
14:32 autrijus but if you have a reference to a number, you can't use it as a number.
14:32 Juerd postfix ops provide Array|Hash|Code context to their LHS
14:32 autrijus so basically we're back at p5 land.
14:32 Juerd Good!
14:33 autrijus theorbtwo was very happy too :)
14:33 Juerd Now, I do think there should be some postfix scalar dereffer, but that's for later :)
14:33 autrijus maybe we can hijack .val for that.
14:33 Juerd And I *still* think it can be just $, but people seem to be very opposed to that ;)
14:33 Juerd $scalarref$ :)
14:33 autrijus $Id$ $Date$
14:33 theorbtwo .val already does enough... $foo.deref sounds good.
14:33 Juerd So don't call your references that
14:34 PerlJam Juerd: $foo\  :-P
14:34 Juerd The exception we have to make for #! is bad enough already :)
14:34 Khisanth autrijus: so on that first one it would be $y.++?
14:34 Juerd PerlJam: I wish to reserve \ for infix operation.
14:34 theorbtwo We do?  Isn't #! just a comment?
14:35 Juerd theorbtwo: Not if it's the first line
14:35 autrijus Khisanth: I don't know if it should work like that.
14:35 Juerd Shebang behaviour is emulated
14:35 Juerd It has to be for the -T exceptio
14:35 Juerd n
14:35 autrijus $$y++ # is the way I'd envision
14:35 Khisanth autrijus: I am kinda hoping it wouldn't :)
14:36 Juerd theorbtwo: Ooh! .deref
14:36 Juerd theorbtwo: A generic whateverref dereffer!
14:36 Juerd BUT
14:36 Juerd How it's not possible for it to be generic.
14:36 Juerd That's unfortunate, really.
14:36 * theorbtwo isn't so sure of that.  It'd... yeah, that's not possible.
14:36 Juerd So let's have syntax. Then the asymmetry isn't so blatantly obvious.
14:37 theorbtwo Which is unfornunate, because it means that we have to find a name where people don't expect it to be one.
14:37 PerlJam So is there going to be some syntax for the infinite deref?
14:37 Juerd http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/perl6-as-of-20050623.txt ++  # I like much of it.
14:37 Juerd PerlJam: Yes, it can be postfix $ :)
14:38 theorbtwo There already is syntax, just not postfix syntax (for finate deref.)
14:38 Khisanth return is just another way to throw an exception? :)
14:38 Juerd And infinite is a problem :)
14:38 Juerd That takes too long.
14:38 theorbtwo Yep, Khis.  A very unexceptional exception.
14:38 PerlJam theorbtwo: perhaps I should have said "is there some simple punctuation?"  :-)
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14:39 Juerd So... what is the current state of <->?
14:39 theorbtwo Juerd: I don't think anybody thinks it's useful enough.
14:39 PerlJam Juerd: it still only exists in your imagination :)
14:40 Juerd Grumble.
14:40 Khisanth the lightsaber operator? :)
14:40 theorbtwo So make one
14:40 Juerd Khisanth: No, that's ====================@##@####
14:40 Juerd hmm
14:40 Juerd Khisanth: No, that's 4====================@##@####
14:40 Juerd there.
14:41 Juerd theorbtwo: I want <-> to be the default for $_-blocks.
14:41 Juerd theorbtwo: rather than "-> $_ is rw"
14:41 Juerd Because that adds some weirdness to the defaulting thing
14:41 Khisanth ah a sith lightsaber at that!
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14:41 Juerd Anywhere $_ is a default, adding $_ shouldn't break things.
14:41 theorbtwo We're trying to decide what to change it to right now.
14:41 Juerd "$_ is rw" as a default makes very little sense.
14:42 Juerd <-> solves this in a subtle way
14:42 theorbtwo -> ?$_ default $OUTER::_ seems to be the conclusion.
14:42 Juerd And makes possible my for %hash <-> $key, $value { ... }, which is still much easier to type than for %hash -> $key is rw, $value is rw { ... }
14:43 Juerd theorbtwo: Holy bovine.
14:43 theorbtwo OK, the conversation is getting aways from me.
14:43 Juerd There goes simplicity :(
14:44 PerlJam Juerd: I was going to say that <-> only seems really useful when you have multiple parameters that you want rw, but then theorbtwo's comment shocked me into silence.
14:44 Juerd PerlJam: It's even more useful there, and that's when it becomes tedious to write "is rw" instead
14:44 PerlJam Can we do   for @foo -> ($a,$b,$c) is rw { ... }   ?
14:45 Juerd PerlJam: I'm more concerned with the default of "-> $_ is rw", because I'm rather convinced the default should be "-> $_" or "<-> $_", not something involving an external property like "is rw"
14:45 Juerd PerlJam: Not currently.
14:45 Juerd PerlJam: I find for @foo <-> $a, $b, $c { ... } a hell of a lot easier on the eyes and fingers still.
14:45 Khisanth PerlJam: but wouldn't that mean the list and not the individual elements are rw?
14:45 Juerd The thing is that <-> is conceptually NOT "yet another way"
14:46 PerlJam for some reason <-> always makes me think of the "in", "out" and "inout" parameters in XS
14:46 Juerd It's like q() and q[].
14:46 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
14:46 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
14:46 Juerd PerlJam: I don't know what those are, but <-> does really mean things are bidirectional, and -> means they're unidirectional.
14:47 Khisanth -> readonly, <- write only, <-> read write? :)
14:47 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Could someone please run this code - and if it works, nopaste the results for me?" (76 lines, 2.7K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11293
14:47 Juerd Yes, except that write only has no practical use and can thus be skipped.
14:47 Juerd Especially because <- is qw(-, which is too dangerous a thing.
14:47 Limbic_Region the binary build Jonathan puts out is broke today (after I already wiped out my working copy of Pugs) - so I have no way of testing
14:47 Limbic_Region but if someone wouldn't mind trying it for me I would be very appreciative
14:47 PerlJam Khisanth: or ...  for @a -> $a,$b { ... }   ===   for $a,$b <- @a { ... }    :-)
14:47 Juerd <-> is acceptable because it makes one thing different, instead of an infinite number of things.
14:48 Juerd PerlJam: But that screams for $value <= $key too, which isn't going to work.
14:49 PerlJam Beware the hobgoblins of foolish symmetry  ;)
14:49 Juerd Limbic_Region:
14:49 Juerd    unexpected "{"
14:49 Juerd    expecting operator, ",", ":", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
14:49 Juerd    at - line 33, column 17
14:50 chip "the boy who cried 'foolish consistency'"
14:51 Limbic_Region thanks Juerd - will investigate
14:51 PerlJam Limbic_Region: what's the top level when acting upon?
14:52 PerlJam Limbic_Region: i.e., I see no given $result_1 { ... }
14:53 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I am still working on it - hard to debug without Pugs
14:53 Juerd  30                 when  1 { return %ball{3} == %ball{10} ?? (5, 1) :: (3, -1); }
14:53 Juerd Not that it has to do with the problem at hand, but doesn't that need () around the comparison?
14:54 PerlJam Juerd: Why should it?
14:54 Juerd Oh, no
14:54 Juerd That was with = :)
14:54 * Juerd always has a problem remembering ?:'s precedence
14:54 Juerd BASIC's iif() isn't so stupid, really :)
14:55 theorbtwo Juerd: you mean ??::... <g>
14:55 Juerd No
14:55 Juerd I used ?: to indicate that the problem is bigger than just Perl 6
14:55 theorbtwo Oh.
14:55 Limbic_Region btw - does adding in the given $result_1 { line make it work?
14:56 Juerd Great, I got a warning by SMS that the sun would be dangerously powerful today, and I read it way after the most dangerous times!
14:56 Juerd So much for avoiding skin cancer.
14:56 Limbic_Region I want to verify that it does prior to merging -1 and 1 into a single default case
14:56 PerlJam Limbic_Region: Can't you just use feather.perl6.nl to test this stuff?
14:57 Limbic_Region no - I can't get access to anything outside other than http and https
14:57 PerlJam Time to tunnel ssh over http  ;)
14:58 Limbic_Region *shrug* - normally isn't a problem as I can download binary builds - but today's build is broke and I didn't bother to check that before wiping out a working one
14:59 PerlJam Limbic_Region: perhaps you should build a form interface to feather such that you can paste code snippets, have feather execute them and show you the results.
14:59 PerlJam (assuming Juerd is okay with that)
15:00 Juerd If it's properly ulimited, sure
15:01 Limbic_Region well - I have to run to a meeting now anyway
15:06 Khisanth shouldn't line 9 in Limbic_Region's code result in a warning? or is that not implemented yet? :)
15:07 autrijus only compiler can give a warning -- pugs's main evaluator is not yet a compiler :)
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15:09 Khisanth I just recall someone in #perl mentioning a -w for pugs yesterday
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15:29 autrijus theorbtwo++
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15:29 svnbot6 r4919, autrijus++ | * make PIR backend respect @*INC.
15:29 svnbot6 r4920, theorbtwo++ | Change castV to fromVal for better monadic goodness.
15:29 svnbot6 r4920, theorbtwo++ | Oh, and it's ft, not FT, but m is already used, so it's still M.
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15:57 geoffb Dammit people, why must all the good conversations happen when I'm asleep?
15:57 geoffb :-)
15:57 geoffb Good morning, all
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16:06 Limbic_Region geooffb - mind helping me troubleshoot something (I think you will find it a fun project)
16:07 geoffb sure, watcha got for me?
16:08 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "If this runs without error - what are the results" (55 lines, 1.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11294
16:08 Limbic_Region it is a puzzle - I am presenting a solution in p6, but the challenge will to be to derive a solution using code (not your head)
16:08 geoffb (And I'll trade you -- I need people to test compiles of http://svn.openfoundry.org/sdlperl1/ , and let me know how it goes, since I only have compilers for Debian)
16:09 Limbic_Region well - you will have to wait until I get home then
16:10 geoffb running it . . .
16:10 geoffb Does it take a long time to run, normally?
16:10 geoffb oh wait, it dies
16:11 Limbic_Region dunno - never ran it
16:11 geoffb    unexpected "{"
16:11 geoffb    expecting operator, ",", ":", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
16:11 geoffb    at ./lr-thingie line 13, column 21
16:11 geoffb (that line is off by two, I added a #! and a blank line at the top)
16:11 Limbic_Region ahh - likely need parens around the infix operators
16:11 Limbic_Region or maybe not
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16:12 Limbic_Region can we do /msg so that I don't flood the main channel with "try this"
16:12 integral geoffb: the Makefile.PL does nothing on OS X,  not even complain.
16:12 geoffb oh sure, why not?  :-)
16:13 geoffb integral, yeah, the makefile mess is something I gave off tackling until today -- yesterday I noticed that someone had created a Makefile.netbsd, and then never put an entry in Makefile.PL for it, so I added that myself, but I haven't done anything else to fix the mess.
16:14 geoffb It's definitely next up on the priority list . . . but if you'd like to contribute, I'd be VERY happy, since OS X is the one major thing SDL_Perl 1 didn't run on, I think.
16:14 * integral doesn't even know if he's got SDL installed
16:15 theorbtwo Oh, not pug's makefile.pl.
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16:16 geoffb theorbtwo, sorry for the confusion, no -- it just came up as a trade with L_R, and integral was his usual cool self.  :-)
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16:25 PerlJam pdcawley++ on transparent v. opaque references ... "I'll tell you what, let's swap places: you read the thread and write me a summary of it"
16:26 Limbic_Region should my $number = .1 * -1; # fail to parse
16:26 Limbic_Region my $number = 0.1 * -1; # parses fine btw
16:26 * PerlJam is catching up on his summaries
16:27 wolverian well, that'll disallow method names that are only digits, but oh well..
16:27 PerlJam Limbic_Region: good question.  I'd think it should parse fine.
16:27 PerlJam wolverian: we're already there aren't we?
16:27 wolverian PerlJam: probably.
16:29 geoffb FWIW, it would annoy me to have to do 0.1 everywhere -- because I have a lot of code with values between 0 and 1, in arrays -- so that would actually be significant clutter for me
16:29 Limbic_Region well - it doesn't currently work in pugs so it is either a bug or needs a doc patch
16:30 autrijus it's a parsebug. tests welcome
16:31 Limbic_Region will wait until geoffb has finished helping me debug all the code so I can get them all at once
16:31 geoffb :-)
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16:37 * autrijus is still fighting with the fallout of theorbtwo's patch...
16:57 * Limbic_Region thinks he has found another odd parse bug where the presence or absense of prior statement will make it work/break
16:58 Limbic_Region autrijus - I don't think http://sial.org/pbot/11300 is small enough for a test case
16:59 Limbic_Region but if you remove the line - say "balancing group A and B"; # it stops working
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17:40 * geoffb got tired of wondering what Sudoku was, and finally read http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sudoku . . .
17:40 geoffb pretty cool, that.
17:43 Khisanth latest checkout doesn't compile ...
17:44 theorbtwo Khisanth, autrijus is working on it.
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17:45 Khisanth oh that is what he meant :)
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17:46 theorbtwo Yup.
17:46 theorbtwo All my fault.
17:46 theorbtwo .oO(fmap!)
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17:52 svnbot6 r4921, iblech++ | * Pugs.Eval  -- Removed unneeded import.
17:52 svnbot6 r4921, iblech++ | * Test       -- s/say/print/ -- now a failed test outputs "not ok n" again (was
17:52 svnbot6 r4921, iblech++ |   "not \nok n").
17:52 svnbot6 r4921, iblech++ | * examples.t -- unTODOed a succeeding test.
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18:04 Arathorn they're quite fun
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18:12 * geoffb finally catches up with backlog
18:13 * geoffb praises the death of infinite auto-deref
18:13 * nothingmuch wakes up
18:14 geoffb welcome to the land of the living, nothingmuch
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18:30 obra hey luqui_. how's the hackathon?
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18:31 luqui_ it's like a design meeting
18:31 luqui_ but without a damian :-)
18:31 obra Heh.
18:31 luqui_ fun
18:32 obra Last night, Allison sold me on the Artistic 2.0.  (Pointed out why most of my concerns weren't actually an issue)
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18:32 Limbic_Region geoffb - see http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=469482
18:33 * luqui_ knows nothing of legalness
18:33 Limbic_Region actually, everyone is welcome to try the challenge - sorry about the broken p6 code but it seems I have uncovered several bugs in pugs
18:33 obra luqui_: I'm a bit jealous ;)
18:33 * luqui_ just barely skimmed over artistic 2.0
18:33 Limbic_Region does anyone else have a Win32 binary build of Pugs I can download?
18:34 Limbic_Region luqui - did you get a chance to see my follow up email?
18:34 luqui_ limbic_region, yeah, but I forgot what you asked
18:34 luqui_ and the net is sloooow here so I'd rather not look
18:35 Limbic_Region ok - will regurgitate here if you don't mind
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18:35 Limbic_Region while $ref() -> @array { ... } # doesn't currently work in Pugs
18:36 Limbic_Region you indicated that if $ref() returned a list, it would become an array, and then bound to the block parameter
18:36 luqui_ yeah, we made that decision pretty quickly
18:36 Limbic_Region that's what I want to happen and I will return an empty list so that it knows when I am done
18:36 luqui_ and it's not implemented
18:36 Limbic_Region using undef won't work - must be empty list
18:36 geoffb sorry, l_r, was AFK.  reading back ...
18:37 luqui_ but for such a thing, you're probably better off using an iterator
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18:37 Limbic_Region it is an iterator
18:37 Limbic_Region the $ref() returns a list until it is done at which point it returns an empty list
18:37 Limbic_Region anyway - moving on
18:37 Limbic_Region you said while condition -> ?$x {
18:37 luqui_ oh, but you're not using the perl iterator interface
18:38 Limbic_Region right
18:38 PerlJam oh yeah, that reminds me  ... Limbic_Region++ for the iterators article
18:38 Limbic_Region p5 -> p6 with as little translation as possible
18:38 Limbic_Region that last part while condition -> ?$x { confused me for a couple of reasons
18:38 Limbic_Region #1 shouldn't that be ?@x and not ?$x
18:38 Limbic_Region second - why use ? (assuming that means it is optional)
18:38 luqui_ I was just outlining our decision about while's topicalization nature
18:39 Limbic_Region ok
18:39 luqui_ it had little to do with your question, but your question triggered the decision
18:39 Darren_Duncan fyi, 4291 fails to compile ; problem is in src/Pugs/AST/Internals.hs:538:13
18:39 Limbic_Region gotcha
18:39 Limbic_Region so back to my question then
18:39 Limbic_Region when the bound array is empty - the while loop finishes?
18:39 luqui_ Darren, we're aware of that :-(
18:39 Darren_Duncan okay
18:40 luqui_ well...
18:40 luqui_ your undef thing doesn't quite work I think
18:40 luqui_ basically the loop is finished whenever the return evaluates false
18:40 Limbic_Region it shouldn't be undef
18:40 Limbic_Region undef is a single element resulting in an array of 1 element and hence true
18:40 luqui_ in scalar context
18:40 Limbic_Region that's why I was explicit about returning an empty list
18:41 Limbic_Region empty meaning 0 elements
18:41 luqui_ yeah, but the single element might not turn itself into an array ref in scalar context
18:41 Limbic_Region grrrr
18:41 Limbic_Region if in my iterator I have a line like
18:41 * luqui_ is asking
18:41 Limbic_Region return () if $finished;
18:42 Limbic_Region I would expect that to know I want a list of 0 elements
18:43 nothingmuch_ "...that works?..."
18:43 nothingmuch_ =D
18:43 Limbic_Region which is different IMO from return undef if $finished or return if $finished;
18:43 PerlJam Limbic_Region: return [] if $finished; doesn't do it for you?
18:43 PerlJam (what with the transparent reference semantics and all)
18:44 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I would think that would be non-intutive
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18:44 * geoffb is increasingly hating transparent (de/en)referencing
18:44 Limbic_Region you are returning an explicit list everywhere else but when you mean empty list you change to array ref
18:44 Limbic_Region that's less dwimery
18:45 PerlJam "explicit list"?
18:45 Limbic_Region return (1, 2, 3);
18:45 PerlJam parens aren't list constructors.
18:45 Limbic_Region right
18:45 geoffb Plus, I can easily see people following the rule elsewhere and saying "that's a list containing one element, an empty arrayref"
18:45 luqui_ Limbic_Region, we think this will do the trick
18:45 luqui_ return (,) if $finished
18:45 PerlJam Limbic_Region: yeah, I see your point though.
18:45 luqui_ (not sure that , needs to be there)
18:45 luqui_ anyway
18:45 * Limbic_Region hugs luqui_ and the rest of the hackathoners
18:46 luqui_ if you want to return a single element list that turns into an arrayref in scalar context, it's like this:
18:46 luqui_ return (1,)
18:46 luqui_ so return (0,) will evaluate true according to while
18:46 PerlJam why am I suddenly reminded of python?
18:46 luqui_ larry was too ;-)
18:46 PerlJam (because that's one of the pythonisms that bugs me the most! that's why)
18:47 luqui_ well, we've got to get through this issue somehow
18:47 Limbic_Region the return (); would be best but return (,) is acceptable
18:47 PerlJam right.
18:47 luqui_ return () might work
18:47 luqui_ but return (1) does not
18:47 PerlJam I don't have any good answers
18:47 geoffb Fair enough . . . my requirement is basically that I have a single simple rule that will allow me to disambiguate () and {}, because otherwise I can't even imagine the bughunts trying to figure out what I really should be getting
18:47 Limbic_Region ok - so now about all the other bugs I found with my latest challenge
18:47 PerlJam return () is syntactically clear if you ask me.
18:48 Limbic_Region does anyone have a Win32 binary build of pugs available for download?
18:48 PerlJam luqui_: surely [1] works as (1,) ?
18:48 * Limbic_Region would like to write tests for the things identified so far before he forgets them
18:48 geoffb Personally, while I really love most of Perl 6 so far . . . methinks Perl 5 did Just Fine (tm) with the semantics of return
18:48 luqui_ perljam, [1] is a listref even in list context
18:48 luqui_ we want a flat list
18:49 luqui_ basically, we want an X such that:
18:49 luqui_ $x = X   # listref
18:49 luqui_ @x = X    # no listref
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18:50 * Limbic_Region believes luqui's time is better spent with the other people in the hackathon then answering his silly questions
18:50 PerlJam luqui: are you saying that if X were [1] that @x[0] would be [1] rather than 1 ?
18:50 luqui right
18:50 Limbic_Region now that I have a warm fuzzy that something sane will be done - I will stop whining
18:51 luqui :-)
18:51 * luqui &
18:51 PerlJam I wonder what a hackathon sounds like.
18:51 Limbic_Region no one has a Win32 binary build available huh?
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18:51 geoffb loud, I would think
18:52 luqui oh, jonathan was making those for a while
18:52 PerlJam geoffb: it's either loud or silent but always with keyboards clicking away  :)
18:52 luqui I don't know much about it though
18:52 * luqui fg
18:52 * luqui &
18:52 Limbic_Region jonathan's build is broke ATM and hence the problem
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18:56 autrijus Limbic_Region: I can build one for you but it'd take a very long while to upload it from the cell phone connection here
18:57 Limbic_Region heh
18:57 * Limbic_Region hugs autrijus too for being willing to go the extra mile
18:57 Limbic_Region I have written down the bugs well enough to hopefully be able to write tests later tonight
18:59 luqui hey autrijus, I can get parrot talking to pug
18:59 luqui pugs
18:59 luqui but I'm not sure how to get pugs's output into parrot
18:59 PerlJam what does a parrot say to a pug?
18:59 luqui eval?
19:01 autrijus luqui: I'm converging to minimize our location delta
19:05 Darren_Duncan eval? 1+1
19:05 Darren_Duncan ?eval 1+1
19:08 Limbic_Region the evalbot's not on the channel ATM Darren_Duncan
19:08 svnbot6 r4922, autrijus++ | * clean up theorbtwo's vCast patch.  I expect most tests
19:08 svnbot6 r4922, autrijus++ |   to still break... :)
19:08 Limbic_Region but I guess you figured that out already
19:09 PerlJam Is it too transitioning to the hackathon?
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19:14 Darren_Duncan yes, it hasn't been for several days now
19:31 Darren_Duncan r4922 compiles successfully for me
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21:01 arcady pugs' ~~ doesn't do some of the things that it's supposed to
21:01 arcady 42 ~~ 40..45 returns false, where S04 says it should be true
21:02 arcady since matching a number against a range tells if the number is in the range
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21:03 theorbtwo arcady: Find a test, or write one?
21:04 arcady aha, there are in fact tests
21:06 arcady I think what I really need to do is learn Haskell and fix all these things
21:06 arcady if only I had the time for that...
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21:18 autrijus using a pair variable to bind into named params finally works
21:19 Limbic_Region autrijus++
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ | * After extensive discussion with lwall, the named binding semantics
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |   is now implemented as an inferencing phase before binding:
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     sub foo ($x) { ... }
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     sub bar { (x => 3) }
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     sub baz returns Pair () { (x => 3) }
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     foo(bar());         # This assigns (x=>3) to $x
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     foo(baz());         # This assigns 3 to $x
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     foo(*baz());        # This assigns (x=>3) to $x
21:19 svnbot6 r4923, autrijus++ |     foo($y);            # This assigns 3 to $x, too
21:19 Limbic_Region how is the timezone difference treating you autrijus?
21:20 Weems has joined #perl6
21:20 autrijus i'm doing fine :)
21:20 Limbic_Region i'm currently building Pugs (at home) to write tests for the bugs geoffb helped me find earlier
21:21 Limbic_Region how relavent is the patch theorbtwo applied
21:21 Limbic_Region WRT bugs not really being bugs?
21:23 autrijus theoretically theorbtwo's patch only makes all castfails trappable.
21:23 pmichaud has joined #perl6
21:23 autrijus practically though... it breaks almost everything. I'm still sorting thru it
21:24 geoffb autrijus, let us know when the coast is clear to do another pull/build and be able to assume life will be good
21:24 geoffb er, please
21:24 pmichaud how goes the hackathon?
21:24 Limbic_Region well - I know these bugs were b0rk prior to the patch so I will post em anyway
21:29 theorbtwo .oO(I tried to warn him...)
21:32 Limbic_Region ughh - /me checks revision history to see what rev # was theorbtwo's patch
21:32 autrijus sure
21:32 autrijus pmichaud: very well! got lots of corner cases specced and/or clarified
21:32 pmichaud excellent.  I'm looking forward to arriving tomorrow.  Anything the group wants me to work on between now and then?
21:33 Limbic_Region how do I (using svk) go back to an older revision?
21:33 Limbic_Region 4919 for instance
21:34 autrijus pmichaud: invokecc for PGE closures? :)
21:34 dmo has joined #perl6
21:34 pmichaud oh yeah, I can probably have that done at some point in the hackathon, np
21:35 pmichaud I'm curious to know more about parrot namespaces and how we expect perl 6 objects (esp. subroutines) to appear in those namespaces
21:36 dmo has quit IRC (Client Quit)
21:36 pmichaud also, anything we have on the ast representation
21:38 autrijus I can braindump to you tomorrow :)
21:38 autrijus as you can already compile Test.pm and other stuff to PIR
21:39 autrijus eg. Test::ok is just &ok in the Test namespace
21:39 * Limbic_Region kicks svk for not listening to him
21:39 autrijus also luqui is looking on getting compreg working even for external parrot (by shelling out to pugs)
21:39 autrijus so in any case you should be able just to ask compreg to produce something for you that you can call.
21:39 autrijus I'll take care of compiling the closure in the Rule into a Closure object pmc.
21:40 autrijus (it's already done, actually)
21:40 pmichaud np
21:40 autrijus as for AST, the PIL nodes should be a decent start; we can work out how to map them into p6 space
21:41 autrijus luqui and I sort of think to represent them adequately we'd need parameterised classes, aka generics
21:41 pmichaud yeah, that's the piece I'm wondering about next
21:41 pmichaud so being able to go through that over the weekend will be really helpful
21:41 dmo has joined #perl6
21:41 autrijus sure... I look forward to it. when do you arrive tomorrow?
21:42 pmichaud I should make it to the hackathon around 3pm, depending on airline delays and traffic
21:42 Juerd has anyone experienced downtime of feather, or was it my home connection?
21:42 pmichaud my flight arrives toronto 1pm
21:49 dmo has left
22:00 * Limbic_Region finds it very hard to believe that you can't checkout a specific revision with svk
22:00 svnbot6 r4924, autrijus++ | * If the parameter is expecting a Pair... don't namify it.
22:03 autrijus yow.
22:03 autrijus 7532 test cases: 6916 ok, 616 failed, 942 todo, 432 skipped and 4 unexpectedly succeeded
22:03 autrijus Limbic_Region: huh? svk up -r
22:03 autrijus svk co -r
22:05 geoffb That test summary looks close to normalcy -- only a few percent still failing
22:05 svnbot6 r4925, autrijus++ | * test cleanups; add makefile.pl so smoke tests run
22:07 pmichaud has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
22:09 Limbic_Region autrijus - it doesn't work
22:09 Limbic_Region Invalid filesystem revision number: No such revision 4919
22:10 mugwump svn switch -r
22:10 mugwump (another way for svn)
22:10 Weems has quit IRC (Client Quit)
22:10 Limbic_Region they all say the same damn thing
22:10 Limbic_Region Invalid filesystem revision number: No such revision 4919
22:12 mugwump are you connecting from the right space/time zone?
22:12 autrijus weird... svk takes local rev numbers
22:12 autrijus not remote ones
22:12 autrijus so you can't do -r 4919 when 4919 is the pugs svn rev
22:13 Limbic_Region I even tried wiping out the entire pugs distribution, svk, and starting out fresh with an initial checkout of 4919 - it just looked at me funny and kept doing the same crappy things
22:13 autrijus you need to translate it to your local number using svk log or something
22:14 * Limbic_Region tries something
22:16 knewt__ has joined #perl6
22:16 Limbic_Region this is just plain stupid
22:17 knewt_ has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
22:17 knewt__ is now known as knewt_
22:20 geoffb It should be easy to specify a revision relative to the repo being mirrored -- if not, there's a good complaint for clkao
22:24 Limbic_Region I am firmly under the belief that I am just too stupid to run a computer
22:24 Limbic_Region I have tried it relative to local revisions
22:24 Limbic_Region I have tried starting out fresh checking out a specific versions
22:24 Limbic_Region I have tried everything I can think of
22:24 Limbic_Region it refuses to do anything other than give me the latest
22:25 knewt_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:30 * geoffb blinks
22:30 geoffb Limbic_Region, did you nuke the offending depot in between all these efforts?
22:30 geoffb (here I'm assuming pugs is the only thing you're mirroring in that depot . . . )
22:31 Limbic_Region geoffb - yes, in fact I uninstalled everything and rmdir /s /q anything that remained
22:32 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:33 geoffb wowsers
22:33 Limbic_Region and so I tried to download svn 1.2.0 and it seems all those links are broken
22:33 * Limbic_Region thinks the universe really doesn't want him to be playing with Pugs tonight
22:34 * Limbic_Region opts for svn 1.1.4 and hopes for the best
22:34 Limbic_Region you have got to be kidding me
22:35 Limbic_Region now I am getting a "Program too big to fit into memory" error
22:35 geoffb OK, not to disparage your system or anything, but that's fubar.
22:36 geoffb Hmmm . . . maybe SVK reacts badly to OOM issues?
22:36 Limbic_Region that doesn't make any sense
22:37 Limbic_Region it works fine unless I ask for something other than the most recent directory
22:37 Limbic_Region s/directory/revision/
22:37 geoffb and "Program too big to fit into memory" does?!?
22:37 knewt_ has joined #perl6
22:37 Limbic_Region no - that's svn not svk
22:37 * Limbic_Region gives up for tonight
22:37 Limbic_Region it isn't meant to be
22:38 Juerd Too many things are not meant to be
22:38 geoffb Limbic_Region appears to be playing "boss who blows up everything vaguely technical when he walks in the door" today
22:38 Juerd Those things take us to be
22:38 Juerd Perl 6 is one of those things
22:38 ramzi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:38 Juerd Getting living beings in and out of space was too
22:39 mugwump dang, I'm getting that field `_crypt_struct' has incomplete type error building Pugs.Embed.Perl5 now
22:41 Juerd I find the parrot binary rather large. Is there a reason it has to be so big?
22:41 mugwump stripped it?
22:42 Juerd Oh, it's not stripped by make?
22:42 Juerd That explains it :)
22:42 Juerd Thanks, this helps much
22:42 mugwump Mine's 2Meg after stripping
22:42 Juerd That saves a lot of memory during runtime
22:43 stef_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:43 cognominal has joined #perl6
22:44 Juerd And a second execution time!
22:44 Juerd Imagine what that does to testing.
22:45 mugwump you don't embed? :)
22:45 Juerd Hm?
23:04 Limbic_Region has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:04 vcv has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:04 svnbot6 r4926, luqui++ | Added pugsSlurp.
23:10 autrijus luqhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_experiment
23:10 svnbot6 r4927, autrijus++ | * unTODO succeeding tests.
23:17 Juerd Is there a test for %hash = { ... } yet?
23:17 svnbot6 r4928, autrijus++ | * after consulting with lwall and luqui, in light of the new
23:17 svnbot6 r4928, autrijus++ |   semantic of bare blocks always taking a (?$_=$OUTER::_) as
23:17 svnbot6 r4928, autrijus++ |   parameter, the "Parametric" type is now obsolete.  Also gone
23:17 svnbot6 r4928, autrijus++ |   with it is the "Bare" type -- all blocks are just Block now.
23:17 Juerd It works (at least worked earlier today), but shouldn't work.
23:17 Juerd Well, it should work, but using the hashref as the first key, not as the entire new hash.
23:22 vigilante has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:24 autrijus right. that was one of the deref issues following 0-level
23:24 autrijus I'll fix... actually the entire deref semantics is now changed
23:24 autrijus I'm also trying (not very successfully) to release a version today before really ripping everything out
23:32 Darren_Duncan that is a good time to do it
23:33 Darren_Duncan keeps a more permanent record of a lot of older work that would seem to get destroyed
23:34 revdiablo heh, "older"
23:34 revdiablo the ancient code that's 2 weeks old
23:34 geoffb Um, isn't that what version control is for, Darren_Duncan?
23:34 Darren_Duncan I said MORE permanent
23:34 geoffb (well, one of the uses, anyway)
23:34 geoffb heh
23:34 geoffb fair 'nuf
23:34 Darren_Duncan all the versions in cvs aren't on CPAN
23:34 Darren_Duncan I mean svn
23:34 revdiablo and not only record but recognition
23:35 Darren_Duncan for those that only see CPAN, the releases contain all the visible work
23:35 geoffb sigh
23:35 revdiablo people are sensitive butterflies
23:44 coral flap, flap
23:44 svnbot6 r4929, autrijus++ | * first cut of transliterating &pugs_eval into Emit.PIR
23:46 elmex has quit IRC ("grmbl")
23:49 theorbtwo Change going in for better error messages on castfails.  There's probably a better way to do it, but this way works...)
23:50 glasser has joined #perl6
23:52 knewt_ has quit IRC ("leaving")

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