Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 mugwump I think the key point is... VM?  How can it be virtual, there is no machine ... they're all just ... functions
00:04 Alias_ in the sense that "machine" language controls a "machine"?
00:04 Alias_ and thus a "virtual machine" a like a chip... but not hardware
00:05 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
00:06 miyagawa has joined #perl6
00:08 miyagawa hi there
00:09 mugwump hi miyagawa ... you in toronto yet?
00:09 miyagawa just arrived
00:09 Darren_Duncan how's the air down there?
00:09 miyagawa it's 8pm, but is still shiny :)
00:10 miyagawa the weather is very comfortable
00:10 Darren_Duncan are you going to visit the hackathon?
00:10 miyagawa during the conference, yes
00:10 miyagawa but not after the conf
00:11 Darren_Duncan I mean before the conference; it has already been going on for several days
00:11 miyagawa No, if you mean it
00:11 miyagawa because I just arrived now
00:11 clkao hey miyagawa
00:11 miyagawa hi clkao
00:11 miyagawa (where's the yapc channel if any?)
00:15 Alias_ There's no YAPC channel
00:15 Alias_ Of course, there's a "Not at YAPC" channel :)
00:16 miyagawa lol
00:17 Darren_Duncan now that Subversion is up, I intend to fix Locale-KeyedText so it passes its main test suite without any workarounds in the test suite to make that work
00:18 Darren_Duncan should commit in about 1 hour
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02:08 luqui stevan?
02:08 luqui seen stevan?
02:08 jabbot luqui: stevan was seen 4 hours 42 minutes 14 seconds ago
02:08 stevan luqui: hello
02:08 stevan luqui: where are you?
02:09 luqui i'm in autrijus's and ingy's room
02:09 stevan ok
02:09 stevan and that is?
02:09 luqui I reasoned with them
02:09 luqui well, I guess I just need to know your room
02:09 stevan 940
02:09 stevan where is the mini-hackathon?
02:10 luqui we're figuring that out now
02:10 luqui one moment
02:10 stevan ok, well my room is open
02:10 luqui mmk
02:11 ingy hola
02:11 stevan heya Ingy
02:11 luqui hi
02:12 luqui so we should just do it here?
02:12 stevan ok
02:12 stevan where is here
02:12 * luqui doesn't think it's a good idea
02:12 ingy obra is haviong a hackathon in 1242
02:12 stevan ah
02:12 stevan ok, so when ?
02:13 stevan I will be there with laptop in hand, ready to hack
02:13 ingy stevan: you are welcome to come to 1414 temporarily
02:13 ingy but no entourage please
02:13 stevan I will leave my poose behind
02:13 luqui poose :-p
02:14 stevan my posse's got velocity :P
02:14 stevan ok, I will be there in a moment
02:24 Alias_ Can someone ask obra how hard it would be to set up an equivalent to rt.cpan for rt.openfsan.org?
02:24 svnbot6 r5011, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : removed the workaround in the LKT_*.t files involving temp vars; all LKT_*.t files are now pristine; removed most workaround cludges in KeyedText.pm, but added new workaround that all class attributes made public, since new Pugs bug precludes privates working, and new workarounds related to Hashes; updated t_LKT_Util.pm to change+add a workaround re Hashes; all pristine test suites now pass except for 30 which is on
02:24 Darren_Duncan committed Locale-KeyedText, and for the first time test suites 10 and 20 pass
02:24 Alias_ And see cwest if it's doable
02:24 Darren_Duncan but new Pugs bugs discovered in the process
02:25 Darren_Duncan most glaring is that privates don't seem to work
02:25 miyagawa hola ingy
02:25 ingy hi miyagawa
02:25 ingy are you here?
02:25 miyagawa yeah
02:25 miyagawa 1038
02:25 Darren_Duncan eg, declaration of "has $:foo" works, but referencing it gives an error of "subroutine :foo can't be found"
02:25 ingy oh nice
02:25 miyagawa where shall I go now?
02:26 ingy you can come by 1414 for a bit
02:26 miyagawa okay
02:27 * Darren_Duncan away for a bit
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02:35 stevan has joined #perl6
02:43 obra where are people?
02:43 svnbot6 r5012, luqui++ |  r6@Queen-of-Hearts:  luqui | 2005-06-26 18:17:55 -0400
02:43 svnbot6 r5012, luqui++ |  Begin to push Perl5 codegen logic into the metamodel.
02:43 obra seen ingy
02:43 jabbot obra: ingy was seen 17 minutes 29 seconds ago
02:43 obra seen autrijus
02:43 jabbot obra: autrijus was seen 18 hours 24 minutes 43 seconds ago
02:43 ingy obra: ping
02:44 obra ingy: got kidnapped for dessert. back now
02:44 obra are you guys settled? do you want to come by?
02:45 luqui hi
02:45 obra hey luke
02:46 luqui yeah, well, autrijus is asleep, and yuval is going home
02:46 obra ah. nod.
02:46 luqui so that leaves stevan and me
02:46 * obra nods.
02:46 * obra is also looking for ingy and cwest
02:47 luqui ingy is here
02:47 * luqui hasn't seen cwest
02:47 obra ah. cool. where are you guyds?
02:47 luqui 1414
02:47 obra should we wander down?
02:47 luqui who's "we"?
02:47 luqui but no, because autrijus must sleep
02:48 obra at the moment, me, dave rolsky who is looking for ingy and my minion dave. hm. get ingy to look at irc?
02:48 luqui what's your room?
02:50 autrijus greetings.
02:51 ingy obra: I need your phone
02:51 ingy where are you
02:52 ingy obra: ping ping
02:52 * autrijus goes back to sleep
02:53 ingy obra: I'm heading to 1242 to get your cell phone
02:56 stevan has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
03:02 Darren_Duncan hello autrijus
03:02 autrijus heya darren. sorry for being essentialy away
03:02 Darren_Duncan no prob ... you still got a lot done
03:03 autrijus the new perl5 targetting is really exciting.
03:03 Darren_Duncan indeed
03:03 autrijus somehow it's much more exciting than pir tagetting :)
03:03 Darren_Duncan my last commit has all the Locale-KeyedText 10+20 tests passing
03:03 autrijus ooooh.
03:03 Darren_Duncan but there are still cludges
03:04 autrijus (and yes, I know the private var accessors)
03:04 Darren_Duncan the other thing is that Hashes seem to change into other things like Array::Const
03:05 Darren_Duncan shades of the old List problem, though still a great improvement
03:06 autrijus nod. and those usually go away if you use `is rw` I think
03:06 Darren_Duncan meanwhile, I'll see if I can get the pristine #30 tests passing on the current Pugs, even if cludges are needed
03:06 autrijus I had not implemented luqui's transparent reference proposal; once that's in, the Array::Const etc will be gone
03:06 Darren_Duncan the Const isn't the problem; the Array is the problem
03:06 autrijus I know.
03:07 Darren_Duncan question: is there supposed to be a Pair object type returned by pairs (each element of its output)?
03:07 Darren_Duncan pairs seems to return Array::Const or something
03:07 Darren_Duncan could be related to the other thing
03:07 Darren_Duncan I'll wait for the proposal you mentioned to be implemented, if thats the plan
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03:10 obra hi
03:10 Darren_Duncan hi
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03:14 autrijus the pair thing is unfortunate
03:14 Darren_Duncan yes
03:14 autrijus for %hash.pairs -> Pair $x { ... }
03:14 autrijus must be explicit
03:14 autrijus otherwise it's taken as named binding
03:14 autrijus because lwall ruled that pairs always engage in named binding
03:15 autrijus unless the param list is expecting a Pair
03:15 autrijus (or Any, but I ddin't get around to that yet)
03:16 Darren_Duncan my problem is that if we say an arg is an Any, and we want to do something different with it depending on whether it is a Pair or a Hash or an Array or a scalar ...
03:16 Darren_Duncan the serialization function being an example, would output a => vs a ','
03:16 Darren_Duncan or a {} vs a []
03:16 Darren_Duncan depending on what it can determine the input type is
03:19 autrijus then you typecase it
03:19 autrijus given $x { when Array { .. } }
03:21 Darren_Duncan I had been using, on a forum suggestion, "given $x { when does(Array) { ... } }" ...
03:21 Darren_Duncan but sometimes that didn't work, so I had to do something like "given $x { when .ref eq 'Array' { ... } }"
03:22 autrijus the (when Class) form should work consistently now
03:22 Darren_Duncan is there a non-given form of this?
03:23 Darren_Duncan perhaps wrongly, I had been using a ?? :: expression
03:23 Darren_Duncan see ext/Locale-KeyedText/t/lib/t_LKT_Util.pm for the context
03:26 autrijus if $x.does(Array) { ... }
03:26 Darren_Duncan okay
03:27 Darren_Duncan I will test something ...
03:28 luqui has joined #perl6
03:40 Darren_Duncan greetings
03:40 svnbot6 r5013, autrijus++ | Implemented a wonderful little error message for the default new() that dies if you call it with
03:40 svnbot6 r5013, autrijus++ | positional arguments.
03:40 svnbot6 r5017, autrijus++ | * Emit.PIR.ParrotObject -- Reified PIR nodes as Parrot Objects!
03:41 Darren_Duncan that's curious ... how svnbot6 doesn't spit revision notices in sequence
03:41 luqui yeah
03:41 luqui the error message hack was done at 4:00 am yesterday
03:41 autrijus but was just pushed
03:41 luqui oh
03:41 luqui makes sense
03:41 luqui autrijus: sleep
03:42 autrijus which part of "I'm sleeping" do you not understand again :)
03:42 Darren_Duncan if you're sleeping, how come you are responding to IRC ... normally, sleeping means ignore computer
03:42 Darren_Duncan or does it make a special sound every time you are mentioned?
03:43 autrijus the screen lights up
03:43 luqui your eyes do too
03:43 luqui :-p
03:43 Darren_Duncan if that bothers you, you could change it
03:51 autrijus journal up.
03:51 svnbot6 r5018, autrijus++ | * fix type codegen on pir.pir
03:51 autrijus please continue to think about the p5-targetting strategy :)
03:51 * autrijus waves &
03:52 Darren_Duncan I'll wait until the hash thing is fixed and then worry about the Pairs thing
03:52 mugwump 'night!
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03:54 luqui has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
03:57 * theorbtw1 finds out that he just missed autrijus.
03:58 theorbtw1 Allo, all.
03:58 stevan hey theorbtw1
03:58 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
03:58 Darren_Duncan hey, don't mention that name or you'll wake him up!
03:58 theorbtwo I'm not sure he's been sleeping with his laptop at the hackathon.
03:59 stevan theorbtwo: yes he has
03:59 stevan it was either under the bed or in the bed with him
03:59 Darren_Duncan the new journal entry says 3 hours last night
03:59 stevan its a wonder he didnt break it
04:00 theorbtwo OK then.
04:00 theorbtwo There's lots of apple laptops and they all look more or less the same.
04:00 Darren_Duncan I've heard those were popular
04:01 Darren_Duncan if they're the modern ones, they all look white, like porcelain
04:02 theorbtwo Not quite like porcelain, but not too far off.
04:02 Darren_Duncan I just mean shinyish white
04:02 Darren_Duncan not beige
04:03 mugwump cd autr_ijus; pugs -e 'my $field = "空"; while 1 { $field ~= "羊"; my $count; $field.split("").grep:{ /羊/ && $count++ }; say "有".($count)."隻綿羊" }'
04:03 theorbtwo R6cight.
04:03 theorbtwo Right.
04:04 mugwump (counts sheep ;))
04:04 Darren_Duncan one sheep ... two sheep ... three sheep ...
04:05 theorbtwo There's one gray-with-white-logo there, the rest are all plain white, in various sizes.
04:05 Darren_Duncan oy
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04:09 Darren_Duncan if I were bringing a laptop, it would be an apple ... but I don't got a laptop
04:09 Darren_Duncan I hope that attending OSCON without a laptop won't be a serious detriment
04:10 Alias_ just bring a small blanket to keep your lap warm that way
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04:18 Khisanth keeping a laptop on your lap would probably leave you with burns anyway
04:20 mugwump as well as a low sperm count
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04:37 gaal hello
04:37 gaal In Emit.PIR, argVal:
04:37 gaal argVal MkArgFlatten      = 0x08
04:37 gaal argVal MkArgSlurpyArray  = 0x08
04:37 gaal is it correct that they should have the same value?
04:40 scook0_ is now known as scook0
04:43 stevan_ there is very few things as satisfying as doing a "guts" level refactor, and having the tests pass the first time :)
04:54 Darren_Duncan indeed
05:01 Darren_Duncan question ... are labels implemented yet?
05:01 Darren_Duncan or alternately, how do I specify which of several nested loops to leave?
05:02 Darren_Duncan synopsis 4 mentioned labels, but the examples seemed incomplete
05:03 Darren_Duncan never mind, I got further along
05:06 Darren_Duncan but that didn't work ... I'll come back to it another time
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05:36 svnbot6 r5019, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : uncommented translate_message() in KeyedText.pm and fixed it so it would compile and execute without crashing (though it currently returns the wrong answers), un-todod LKT_30_TrnMsg.t and it fails 18/34 tests due to the wrong answers ... this is the last thing in Locale-KeyedText to get working before the module's done ... labels don't seem to be implemented in Pugs
05:42 Darren_Duncan another Pugs bug that I noticed is that "my $foo = 'Bar'; require $foo;" fails with a "can't locate Bar ..." while a plain "require Bar;" does work
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06:03 svnbot6 r5020, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : added a code comment to translate_message() that explains the main Pugs bug that is causing it to fail ... 'require'.
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12:13 autrijus rehi.
12:13 autrijus "my $foo = 'Bar'; require $foo;"
12:13 miyagawa autrijus: good morning
12:13 autrijus is exactly the same thing as p5
12:14 autrijus i.e. it needs $foo to contain 'Bar.pm'
12:14 autrijus which I never liked, but there's not specced either... or is it?
12:14 autrijus ohaio miyagawa-san
12:21 * Limbic_Region tried all weekend to get Pugs running at home so he could file some bug reports but kept having it blow up - any known Win32 issues ATM?
12:22 autrijus no... define blow up?
12:22 Limbic_Region Prim.hs - exiting with error code something or other
12:22 Limbic_Region I think I can find the nopaste in the logs if you want
12:24 Limbic_Region hmmm - the logs seem to be unavailable ATM
12:24 broquaint has joined #perl6
12:33 Nattfodd autrijus: did you submit something for the ICFPC ?
12:34 autrijus Nattfodd: no. I sort of wanted to, and stevan was quite motivated, but we were unable to convince nothingmuch and other people
12:34 Nattfodd hum
12:34 Nattfodd pity
12:34 Nattfodd ocaml will have to win again this year :)
12:34 autrijus so it turns out perl6 is much more exciting :)
12:35 autrijus again? last year is not ocaml's
12:35 Nattfodd judge's prize was ocaml
12:35 autrijus ah. right
12:35 autrijus but anyway... I need to afk a bit. bbiab
12:35 Nattfodd with a submission from the language creator himself...
12:37 acme_ icfpc is quite interesting
12:37 Nattfodd this year's task is not that much interesting, I think
12:38 Nattfodd there can't be very funny strategies
12:39 acme_ i quite enjoy seeing my little bots scrabble around
12:39 kungfuftr evalbot still dead?
12:42 evalbot6 has joined #perl6
12:42 autrijus ?eval 1+2
12:42 evalbot6 3
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12:45 kungfuftr ?eval "mwuahahahha".say
12:45 evalbot6 mwuahahahha bool::true
12:45 QtPlatypus ?eval /a/ ~ "a";
12:45 evalbot6 '<Rule>a'
12:45 QtPlatypus ?eval /a/ ~~ "a";
12:45 evalbot6 bool::false
12:46 QtPlatypus That doesn't look right?
12:47 autrijus ?eval 'a' ~~ /a/
12:47 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
12:47 autrijus ?eval 'a' ~~ rx:P5/a/
12:47 evalbot6 MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 1, matchStr = "a", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
12:50 pdcawley_ ?eval (1 == 1).type
12:50 pdcawley_ d'oh
12:50 pdcawley_ ?eval ref(1==1)
12:50 evalbot6 ::Bool
12:51 pdcawley_ ?eval ::Bool.getmethods
12:51 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&getmethods"
12:52 pdcawley_ ?eval (1==1).getmethods
12:52 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&getmethods"
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12:55 broquaint ?eval ::Bool.perl
12:55 evalbot6 '\\{obj:Class}'
12:55 broquaint Dang.
12:56 pdcawley_ ?
12:56 pdcawley_ ?eval Bool.perl
12:57 evalbot6 '\\{obj:Class}'
12:57 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo = .1 * 3; $foo
12:57 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "." expecting expression
12:58 Limbic_Region ok - so that's still a bug
12:58 pdcawley_ ?eval +".1"
12:58 evalbot6 0.0
12:58 pdcawley_ Wow.
12:58 Limbic_Region if you want to work around the bug for now
12:58 pdcawley_ ?eval +"0.1"
12:58 evalbot6 0.1
12:59 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo = 0.1 * 3; $foo
12:59 evalbot6 \0.3
12:59 pdcawley_ \0.3?
12:59 Limbic_Region ignore the \
12:59 Limbic_Region I have a handful of bugs I have been waiting to write tests against until I had a working Pugs
13:00 Limbic_Region but I can't get it to compile on Win32 and Jonathan's repository is MIA
13:00 pdcawley_ feather account?
13:00 Limbic_Region s/repository/binary distribution/
13:00 pdcawley_ + emacs + tramp
13:00 Limbic_Region can't use anything other than http and https from work - though I should have logged into feather over the weekend just to get the bugs filed
13:01 pdcawley_ I wonder if we coule get Juerd to put an sshd instance up on 443...
13:02 Limbic_Region I doubt even that would work - I have to go through a proxy on top of that
13:02 pdcawley_ Ick.
13:02 Limbic_Region and besides - it isn't a matter of getting around a technical problem - it is policy which means I could get the axe by not playing nice
13:02 * Limbic_Region works for the US Government
13:03 Limbic_Region anyway - Juerd was nice enough to host CGI::IRC for me and patched a bug so that it worked correctly
13:03 Limbic_Region I guess I could give someone else the list of bugs with tuits to verify
13:04 kungfuftr ?eval #{ hello }#
13:04 evalbot6 undef
13:05 kungfuftr ?eval #{ hello }#.say
13:05 evalbot6 undef
13:05 kungfuftr =0)
13:05 kungfuftr ?eval #{ hello }#; 1.say;
13:05 evalbot6 undef
13:05 Limbic_Region parsed as a comment
13:05 Limbic_Region ?
13:05 Limbic_Region ?eval 1.say
13:05 evalbot6 1 bool::true
13:05 kungfuftr Limbic_Region: yar... nm... need to post to p6l at some point
13:06 Limbic_Region interesting - I thought evalbot outlawed say
13:06 QtPlatypus ?eval say "Me too"
13:06 evalbot6 Me too bool::true
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13:07 Limbic_Region ? for 1..10 -> $foo { say $foo }
13:07 Limbic_Region ?eval for 1..10 -> $foo { say $foo }
13:07 evalbot6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 undef
13:08 kungfuftr oh... that's a bit funky
13:10 Limbic_Region not really
13:10 Limbic_Region ?eval for 1..10 -> $foo { say $foo } my $foo = 'bar'; $foo
13:10 evalbot6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 \'bar'
13:10 Limbic_Region last evaluated expression thingy
13:12 Limbic_Region ?eval my %foo = map { $_ => $_; } 1..10; [+] %foo{1..5} <=> [+] %foo{6..10}
13:12 evalbot6 -1
13:12 Limbic_Region that's going to be an interesting bug to hunt
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13:17 QtPlatypus ?eval my %foo = map { $_ => $_; } 1..10; [+] %foo{1..5}
13:17 evalbot6 15
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13:18 QtPlatypus ?eval my %foo = map { $_ => $_; } 1..10; [+] %foo{6..10}
13:18 evalbot6 40
13:18 QtPlatypus ?eval 15 <=> 40
13:18 evalbot6 -1
13:21 Limbic_Region QtPlatypus - I didn't demonstrate the bug
13:21 Limbic_Region the bug happens to be a parse bug where that line won't work depending on the presense or absense of a line that precedes it
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13:22 Limbic_Region I can nopaste it if you want - it is a bit too big for evalbot
13:23 QtPlatypus go ahead
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13:51 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
13:51 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
13:52 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Removing the say "balancing group A and B"; line should make the following snippet break - adding it back will make it work again" (22 lines, 551B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11375
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13:52 Limbic_Region QtPlatypus - sorry, had to step AFK
13:53 Limbic_Region there is the snippet that works but only if there is a statement preceding the [+] %hash{ .. } <=> [+] %hash{ ... } line
13:53 autrijus ingy: I lost my bet right there
13:53 autrijus :-(
13:53 gaal|work has left
13:53 * QtPlatypus has a look at it.
13:55 QtPlatypus Odd.
13:56 autrijus (sorry, during lwall's talk, will not be able to look into this in 30 mins)
13:57 Limbic_Region QtPlatypus - I found another one a while back similar - only it wouldn't work if something preceded it
13:59 QtPlatypus Does say fix it?  Or any statement?
13:59 Limbic_Region any statement AFAICT
13:59 Limbic_Region I used say because I wanted it to make a bit of sense
13:59 QtPlatypus How about a comment?
14:00 Limbic_Region I haven't tried that (and can't ATM)
14:00 Limbic_Region be my guest
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14:00 Limbic_Region fwiw - the other weird parse bug has been boiled down to http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/t/pugsbugs/return_with_trailing_stuff.t
14:01 * QtPlatypus nods
14:01 Limbic_Region though when I first found it - it was in a much larger code snippet
14:08 Limbic_Region QtPlatypus - if you have the tuits, I would appreciate it if you could boil this last bug I just posed down to a small test case
14:08 Limbic_Region if you don't, I will log into feather at home (since I can't seem to get it working on my local Win32 machine) and play tonight
14:09 * QtPlatypus will hit it with as meany tuits as I have.
14:14 Limbic_Region not sure if this is a bug or not, but putting parens around it makes it error out even with the preceding "say ..." line
14:15 Limbic_Region IOW - my $result_1 = ([+] %ball{1..4}) <=> ([+] %ball{5..8}); # why would this cause an error I wonder?
14:15 QtPlatypus What verson of pugs are you using?
14:17 Limbic_Region I don't have Pugs installed at all
14:17 Limbic_Region that's the problem
14:17 Limbic_Region and some of the bugs I noticed late last week (Thurs/Friday) may no longer be there
14:17 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo = .1 * 3; $foo
14:17 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "." expecting expression
14:17 Limbic_Region that bug still exists though - not sure what version evalbot6 is running
14:22 Limbic_Region everyone else must be listening to Larry
14:23 QtPlatypus With pugs r4939 I can't replicate your error
14:26 Limbic_Region which one - the parens, the .1, or the requirement of a preceding statement?
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14:29 QtPlatypus The requirement of the preceding statement
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14:30 QtPlatypus The .1 error is still there.
14:32 Limbic_Region ok - cool
14:32 Limbic_Region what about the parens then?
14:36 QtPlatypus cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
14:37 QtPlatypus Thats what I get with the parens
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14:39 Limbic_Region ok - that looks like it is also a bug to me
14:39 Limbic_Region ?eval (3) <=> (4)
14:39 evalbot6 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
14:39 Limbic_Region maybe not
14:40 * QtPlatypus wonders what is happening there.
14:40 QtPlatypus ?eval 1 <=> (4)
14:40 Limbic_Region I don't know - I want to try 1 more thing
14:40 evalbot6 -1
14:40 QtPlatypus ?eval (1) <=> (4)
14:40 evalbot6 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
14:40 QtPlatypus ?eval (1) <=> 4
14:40 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "4" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
14:40 Limbic_Region ?eval (3 ?? 3 :: 4) <=> (0 ?? -1 :: 4)
14:40 evalbot6 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
14:41 Limbic_Region it is a bug
14:41 QtPlatypus ?eval 1 <=> 4
14:41 evalbot6 -1
14:41 * QtPlatypus nods
14:41 Limbic_Region ok - so 2 out of 3
14:42 QtPlatypus My other one looks like a bug as well.
14:42 QtPlatypus (1) <=> 4 that is
14:43 QtPlatypus ?eval (1) ~ 4
14:43 evalbot6 '14'
14:44 Limbic_Region ?eval (1) ~ (4)
14:44 evalbot6 '14'
14:44 QtPlatypus Seems to be a pecularaty of the space ship operator
14:50 iblech Ah... it seems the (1) <=> (4) is parsed as 1<=>.(4) -- i.e. get the key "=" out of the "hash" 1, treat it as a coderef, and call it using 4 as parameter
14:50 Limbic_Region well - the last bug I haven't been able to isolate yet
14:50 Limbic_Region but it has to do with nested given/when/default
14:51 Limbic_Region so possibly 3 out of 4 are still present
14:51 Limbic_Region iblech++
14:51 iblech (:d in the interactive shell)++ :)
14:52 Limbic_Region ok - so what about
14:52 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo = .1 * 3; $foo
14:52 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "." expecting expression
14:53 iblech Currently, you have to add the 0 in front of the .1. This is a lexing bug I tried to fix some time ago, but failed
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15:19 mugwump I couldn't find fork() in pugs; was looking for a popen() to make a quicker test harness; anyone know anything more
15:19 * mugwump <== on his way to bed
15:19 mugwump ?
15:19 gaal mugwump, Pipe.open in Prelude.pm
15:19 gaal note though that it isn't specced.
15:20 gaal and also, that right now there's only a shell open; if you want a more direct execute process you need to also hack Prim.hs (very easy in this case)
15:21 svnbot6 r5021, mugwump++ | bah.  can't pass GLOBs through ;).  Anyone got a hack for popen?  I'm thinking a mini-harness would really rip through the tests, despite the lack of LL(1) refactoring/excessive backtracking
15:21 mugwump great, thanks.  -EMUSTSLEEP, but my spare cycles may go that way shortly
15:22 autrijus gaal: you have an idea about how to precompile Prelude?
15:22 autrijus gaal: I noticed that on luqui's computer the "loading Prelude" time is almost half a minute
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15:23 gaal hmmm. dump the ast? :)
15:23 autrijus which is a significant loss of productivity over the pre-Prelude releases
15:23 autrijus right. :)
15:23 autrijus you want to look into that? :)
15:23 gaal well, if you don't *need* prelude code, you can %ENV<PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE>...
15:24 gaal i'd love to, but i'm leaving for the army in half a day :(
15:24 Limbic_Region gaal - as in bootcamp?
15:24 mugwump can't you tell them you're gay or something?
15:25 mugwump or is that not a reasonable excuse to serve the nation these days
15:25 Limbic_Region mugwump - not in the US Army - being gay isn't enough anymore
15:25 mugwump blast
15:25 autrijus but maybe if you tell them you're lesbian...
15:25 gaal http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/159292.html
15:25 Limbic_Region basically have to say that I am gay and it is going to prevent me from doing my job (I am in love with my commanding officer for instance)
15:25 gaal (this is the second time around)
15:26 Limbic_Region gaal - oh, well then - nevermind the "are you crazy - always go to basic in the winter cause it is tooo damn hot to be doing drill exercises in the heat"
15:26 gaal and is the reason i'm not in YAPC now :-(
15:26 autrijus :/
15:26 autrijus alright, I'll look into it
15:27 autrijus but first... let me look into the literals
15:27 gaal autrijus, though: if compiling the prelude takes 30 sec on his machine....
15:27 gaal doesn't compiling anything else take as long too?
15:27 autrijus stevan_: please commit ahead to lib/Perl6/MetaModel*
15:27 autrijus or lib/Perl6/Runtime*
15:27 gaal sounds like he made unoptimized.
15:27 autrijus or something like that.
15:27 autrijus gaal: no... optimised
15:27 autrijus prelude is long
15:27 autrijus most small scripts are short
15:28 autrijus so parsing an oneliner takes maybe 2 or 3 secs
15:28 gaal true. well, the workaround is to bypass it, which works now :(
15:28 autrijus but then as we move more things to Prelude.pm
15:28 autrijus the problem will get worse
15:28 autrijus and you can't getaround by not using it
15:28 autrijus because most funcs will be in prelude
15:28 gaal long eh? open my $prelude, ":gzip", "...." :-p
15:29 autrijus ;)
15:30 gaal when i joined LJ, i still had dialup and i wanted a way to write entries offline and send them when i connect. by the second day of my LJhood i hacked the perl client to let me :)
15:30 gaal it's something like this, conceptually
15:30 autrijus stevan_: I think the core issue is that any Parrot-targeting language has to use an existing Parrot language to write the stage1 compiler
15:30 autrijus just like you can use VB.Net to use the C# tools
15:30 autrijus and people use C# just because it's the sanest of all .net languages
15:31 autrijus so if people consider python more sane, then just use python to drive tools written in perl6 and/or other languages
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15:31 autrijus but you know... having thunk about that, I will divert my energy toward running on the perl5 vm for now ;)
15:35 autrijus the the literal bug is fixed btw.
15:36 Khisanth p6 on p5?
15:36 autrijus Khisanth: yeah
15:36 autrijus that's one of the major focus of the hackathon
15:36 svnbot6 r5022, autrijus++ | * parse for fractional number literals starting with a leading dot:
15:36 svnbot6 r5022, autrijus++ |     .1
15:36 svnbot6 r5022, autrijus++ |     -.1
15:36 Khisanth sounds like a backwards ponie :P
15:36 autrijus right :)
15:36 autrijus I'm interested in a formal PIL evaluator in Haskell
15:36 gaal btw autrijus this localmorning i noticed argVal in Emit.PIR has two things that eval to 8. is that ok?
15:36 autrijus for operational semantics
15:37 autrijus and a codegen from PIL to Perl5 for production use
15:37 autrijus gaal: sure, one is caller site one is sub param site
15:37 Khisanth but this also means that we be p6 even if parrot doesn't work out :)
15:37 autrijus those are derived from parrot include eaders
15:37 autrijus Khisanth: exactly !
15:38 autrijus personally I think parrot makes a lot of sense; however if we get p6-on-p5 or p6-on-mono or p6-on-jvm etc then we get more p6 hackers
15:38 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
15:38 autrijus who will eventually want a VM that is more fitting for p6
15:38 autrijus and hence get more parrot hackers
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15:39 pdcawley So p6 becomes the mother of all source filters?
15:39 mugwump because soon they will have forgotten how to even tell which VM they are using!
15:39 * mugwump laughs evilly
15:39 gaal :)
15:39 * Khisanth could easily see that turning into "meh who needs Parrot these aren't great but good enough"
15:39 autrijus heh no... they'll notice.
15:40 autrijus eg. tailcall on p5 is going to be expensive
15:40 pdcawley ?eval class Integer is extended { method foo { 'foo' }}; 1.foo()
15:40 Khisanth that aspect of p5 can't be changed? ;)
15:40 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&foo"
15:40 autrijus but anyway... as pmichaud said, egg, basket, etc.
15:40 autrijus mmm it's "extended" for today?
15:40 autrijus and "Integer" but not "Int"?
15:40 pdcawley Is it extended?
15:40 autrijus I don't know, lwall had not ruled
15:41 autrijus you think `is extended` makes sense?
15:41 pdcawley He did say in the apo that it would be *something* if memory serves.
15:41 pdcawley Gawd knows.
15:41 autrijus right, "augmented" etc
15:41 * Khisanth hopes someone is busily writing up perldocs for what all these things mean :)
15:41 pdcawley augmented is probably better.
15:42 autrijus lwall ruled "reopened"
15:42 svnbot6 r5023, iblech++ | * ext/Test/bin/test-many.p6 -- Usual svn props.
15:42 svnbot6 r5023, iblech++ | * Eval.Var -- Fixed Haddock-confusing double-comma.
15:42 pdcawley ?eval class Int { method foo { 'foo' }}; 1.foo
15:42 evalbot6 'foo'
15:42 pdcawley Ruled, but not implemented :)
15:42 autrijus (he's sitting on the same table)
15:43 pdcawley Hi Larry.
15:43 autrijus :)
15:43 pdcawley Have we got symbol table introspection specced out yet?
15:43 Odin-LAP autrijus: Ask him what medication he forgot to take, resulting in Perl?
15:44 Khisanth Odin-LAP: not enough time for the full list!
15:44 autrijus pdcawley: it's %MY::, %OUR:: pseudopackages
15:44 pdcawley And can I wedge into the grammar yet?
15:44 autrijus as well as hashes
15:44 Odin-LAP Khisanth: Heh. :p
15:44 autrijus you can wedge into the compiled presentation
15:44 Odin-LAP Oh, yeah. That's the obvious answer. Hash!
15:44 autrijus see ext/Perl-Compiler/ for the obj structure
15:45 autrijus which is how we do macros
15:45 autrijus but you can't yet change the grammar
15:45 pdcawley Will that let me walk the symbol table from the top like I could with %:: in Perl 5?
15:45 autrijus yes.
15:45 pdcawley Implemented?
15:45 pdcawley Can't change the grammar, but can change the PIL that's produced from that grammar?
15:45 autrijus right.
15:46 autrijus ?eval my $x = 4; { my $y = 3; { %OUTER::.kv } }
15:46 evalbot6 ('$?1', 'my $x = 4; { my $y = 3; { %OUTER::.kv } }', '$_', 'perl6', '$code', 'my $x = 4; { my $y = 3; { %OUTER::.kv } }', '$lang', 'Perl6', '$x', 4, '$y', 3, '%_', (), '&?BLOCK', sub {...}, '&?BLOCK_EXIT', sub {...}, '&break', sub {...}, '&continue', sub {...})
15:46 pdcawley Hmm... I think that's probably enough for (at least) a trace thing...
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15:47 pdcawley ?eval package Foo { sub foo {...}}; %OUR::.kv
15:47 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "%OUR::"
15:48 pdcawley One of the nice tricks in Perl 5 was being able to find what packages were known about by inspecting %::
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15:54 * pdcawley notes that, given symbol table introspection it becomes possible to write quite a few 'meta' methods directly in Perl 6.
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15:56 autrijus new just-in-time ruling
15:56 autrijus * `$OUTER::x` now means whatever `$x` is visible in the immediate
15:56 autrijus  outer scope, unlike `$MY::x` which is strictly this lexical scope.
15:56 autrijus  `$CALLER::x` similarily means whatever `$x` is visible in the
15:56 autrijus  immediate caller scope.  Same applies exactly to the pseudopackages.
15:56 pdcawley $OUTER::OUTER::x is legal?
15:56 autrijus yes.
15:57 autrijus so you get PadWalker for free
15:57 autrijus for some reason
15:57 pdcawley $MY::OUTER::x?
15:57 autrijus sure, although that means same as $OUTER::x
15:57 autrijus if you think about it :)
15:57 pdcawley $OUTER::CALLER::x?
15:57 * pdcawley grins, "I know, just wanted to know it was legal"
15:57 autrijus that is going to be the saming thing as $CALLER::x if your outer scope is within the same routine
15:57 gaal $MY::MY::THIS::IS::FUN
15:57 autrijus if not, it is "erroneous".
15:58 autrijus which is just a way of saying as the compiler writer I can trigger a `rm -rf ~` at that point
15:58 gaal yeah, like a l33t compiler when your source code has no letters in it! it's actually in the spec :)
15:58 autrijus (i.e. behaviour is undefined. probably fails with "CALLER::" not available in OUTER::)
15:59 pdcawley sub {... ; for 0..10 -> { $OUTER::CALLER::x }}
15:59 pdcawley I *think* that in that context $OUTER::CALLER is distinct from CALLER::OUTER
15:59 autrijus pdcawley: that is exactly the same as $CALLER::x.
15:59 pdcawley Because the pointy is called from for.
15:59 autrijus pointies does not remember the caller (I think)
15:59 chip my lexicals are innies
15:59 pdcawley or does CALLER propagate into the caller.
16:00 autrijus caller means the thing you are "return"ing to.
16:00 autrijus if you return from inner of pointy
16:00 autrijus then you return on behalf of sub
16:00 autrijus so your CALLER is exactly the same as OUTER::CALLER.
16:01 autrijus (hint: write tests)
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16:02 pdcawley Can that work when you return from a pointy by throwing an exception?
16:02 pdcawley Ah.. no, because you populate CALLER when the pointy closes over stuff.
16:02 pdcawley Which happens before the pointy is called.
16:03 autrijus right.
16:03 * pdcawley is in 'stating the obvious mode' here.
16:03 autrijus that's fine :)
16:03 autrijus that's what "operational semantics" means.
16:03 pdcawley Just making sure it's obvious :)
16:04 autrijus please be patient while we rehaul pugs to take advantage of those recursive lambdas :)
16:05 pdcawley ?eval class Foo { method foo {...} }; ref %Foo::foo
16:05 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "%Foo::foo"
16:05 autrijus ?eval class Foo { method foo {...} }; ref &Foo::foo
16:05 evalbot6 ::Method
16:05 pdcawley ?eval class Foo { method foo {...}}; ref %Foo::{'&foo'}
16:05 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "%Foo::"
16:05 pdcawley Hmm... how do I get Foo's symbol table?
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16:06 autrijus ?eval class Foo { method foo {...} }; %Foo::
16:06 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "%Foo::"
16:06 autrijus eh, weird, it's in Pugs.Eval.Var before
16:06 autrijus please write tests or see if there are already tests
16:06 autrijus I'll take a look :)
16:07 pdcawley Okay. %OUR:: should have various '::Foo' keys in for 'packages available to the image' right? Or are they in %MY::?
16:08 autrijus no, %MY:: is strictly this lexical pad
16:09 pdcawley So is %:: going to be the default symbol table in the same way as in Perl 5?
16:10 autrijus I think it's %*:: that contains all other symbol tables
16:10 autrijus but it's unruled... I can ask for a ruling in a bit
16:11 pdcawley %*:: makes sense, it's global after all.
16:11 autrijus yup
16:11 pdcawley Is ::Foo.meta returning an actual object yet?
16:12 * pdcawley is giving himself a test shopping list here.
16:13 autrijus not in pugs, but it should.
16:13 autrijus make it a :todo<feature>
16:13 pdcawley Or implement it in Perl6 and make it dependent on the symbol table intro :)
16:14 autrijus heh :)
16:14 pdcawley Which is, I think possible.
16:14 autrijus commits... welcome
16:14 pdcawley (Possibly with some help from extra code in PIL...)
16:14 autrijus right.
16:14 pdcawley Lemme get the tests written first. Once I know what behaviour it's reliant on I might be able to do the next bit.
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16:16 pdcawley Also, is there going to be a 'Runtime' object -- like the Ruby Kernel obj, the bit that lets you write things like Runtime.for_all_objects: -> $obj {...}
16:16 pdcawley Or is that the sort of thing that brave fools implement in CP6AN?
16:17 autrijus meep meep
16:18 pdcawley ?
16:18 autrijus meaning, I have no idea at all
16:18 pdcawley Ah well, I shall have to play at implementing it, see what comes of it.
16:18 autrijus I think it should be possible.
16:19 pdcawley Oh, it's possible, the question is what's the best way of doing it : )
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16:20 Limbic_Region autrijus, what bet did you lose and with whom?
16:20 autrijus no, I mean if you are running on different runtimes, they are going to provide different introspection capabilities
16:21 autrijus Limbic_Region: I bet with ingy that lwall will not mention my name during his keynote talk, because lwall usually doesn't do that -- but lwall did that almost at the very beginning of the talk, and again later
16:21 pdcawley autrijus: Not if you write the introspection right. Just wedge into 'class', 'method', 'sub', etc...
16:22 autrijus pdcawley: right. what I need is API
16:22 autrijus please design it :)
16:22 Limbic_Region ok - so what were the terms of the bet - inquiring minds want to know
16:22 autrijus (or find people who do)
16:22 autrijus Limbic_Region: the losing side needs to give the winning side a kiss... chocolate.
16:23 pdcawley Wilco. I'll investigate and post something to the list. If anyone reading this feels like pinging me in a week if there's been nothing, I'd be grateful.
16:23 pdcawley But I hope it'll happen before then.
16:23 Limbic_Region so how much Haskell has he learned?
16:25 stevan_ I have a question for the group :)
16:25 autrijus stevan_: yes?
16:25 stevan_ pdcawley in particular
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16:25 stevan_ should the metaclass handle the accessor generation? or should the meta-model constructor do it?
16:26 autrijus Limbic_Region: I don't know. I know he can read data type declarations :)
16:26 stevan_ (the meta-model constructor being the thing which itself creates the metaclass instance :)
16:27 pdcawley stevan: Personally, I think it should be constructed by whatever implements 'has'
16:27 autrijus stevan_: start a cargo cult cult to hand out cult cargo!
16:27 stevan_ pdcawley: that would likely be the meta-model constructor then
16:27 stevan_ thanks
16:28 stevan_ that was my suspicion
16:28 stevan_ i just needed someone else to agree with me to validate my own thoughts :)
16:28 pdcawley Consider having the meta-model constructor tell the class that it's about to add an attribute, and again that it *has* added the attributed.
16:28 stevan_ BTW - nothingmuch says hello to the group
16:28 pdcawley Same for methods, submethods, subs etc.
16:28 stevan_ his computer died
16:29 stevan_ pdcawley: shouldnt the actions just be atomic (or as close to atomic as possible)
16:30 * PerlJam sets up an agreeable bot just for stevan_ that agrees with everything he says  ;)
16:30 autrijus I just introduced The Matrix to chromatic
16:30 autrijus (Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix)
16:30 pdcawley Not sure, just copping something from NSBindings. Ask the class "Can I add this thing?", then tell the class that you did add the thing.
16:30 pdcawley They're used for two different purposes.
16:31 autrijus he mentioned something about perl.com artible
16:31 Limbic_Region PerlJam - by definition it would be flawed
16:31 autrijus er, article
16:31 * autrijus wonders if nothingmuch would be up to it
16:31 Limbic_Region consider "I am completely wrong on this aren't I"
16:31 pdcawley Class wants to be able to say "No, I don't want that new attribute, I've already got it, or whatever reason class decides"
16:31 pdcawley Then, once the class has had the attribute added, it needs to ferret through all its instances changing their internal structure.
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16:32 luqui does pugs support object-subscripted hashes
16:32 pdcawley And if the class is going to be able to get at all its instances, we need some 'weak' way of referring to objects, or garbage collection is completely up the pole.
16:32 autrijus $obj<attr> ?
16:32 autrijus or $obj{$obj} ?
16:32 luqui no, %hash{Foo.new}
16:32 autrijus that currently stringifies it because we don't do shapes yet.
16:32 autrijus which was because the confusion over the Hash role
16:33 luqui mmkay
16:33 luqui I can implement this without that
16:33 stevan_ pdcawley: I see
16:33 pdcawley (Or do we just say to the garbage collector "Gimme all the objects in the live set" and grep through them?
16:33 pdcawley )
16:33 autrijus but that was ruled: Hash is a role, PerlHash is class that parameterised Hash with [returns=>Any, shape=>Str]
16:33 autrijus or something like that
16:33 stevan_ however metamodel 0.0.1 will not be that complex
16:33 stevan_ but I think 0.0.2 will surely include it
16:33 pdcawley Personally, I lean towards asking the garbage collector, because, dammit, some things *should* be slow.
16:34 stevan_ although I am not sure if you can add attibutes dynamically, but thats another discussion altogether
16:34 stevan_ ok back to metaclass hacking &
16:34 pdcawley I hope you can.
16:34 pdcawley But I want to write an image based IDE, so I would say that wouldn't I?
16:35 stevan_ pdcawley: I will be checking the cleaned up perl5 (prototype) metamodel code into Pugs in a few hours actually
16:35 stevan_ you are welcome to join in the metamodel hacking if you like
16:35 pdcawley Great. I shall have a look once it's there.
16:36 autrijus pdcawley: 18:28 <@leo> FYI:  lt@feather:~$ parrot sudoku.pir --nc
16:36 * stevan_ has to clean up all the hackishness he did when he thought no one was going to *actually* us this thing
16:36 pdcawley I'd like to come to the Portugal hackathon, but funds are lacking
16:36 autrijus oh wait, you're in #parrot.
16:36 pdcawley I am, but I hadn't noticed.
16:36 autrijus ok. leo has implemented that
16:36 pdcawley The sudoku solver works?
16:36 pdcawley woohoo!
16:36 pdcawley How slow is it?
16:36 svnbot6 r5024, autrijus++ | * correct do.t and mark my.t as todo
16:37 autrijus yeah, he says that needs work still... but if you are interested find him in #yapcna or #parrot
16:38 pdcawley On this network? Or the other?
16:38 autrijus ircperlorg
16:39 pdcawley Hmm... when I do /j #yapcna I end up in a little world all of my own...
16:40 pdcawley On the irc.perl.org server. Ah well.
16:40 luqui has quit IRC ("Leaving")
16:42 Maddingue is now known as saper
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16:44 pdcawley ?eval sub foo { 'foo' }; &foo = sub { 'bar' }; foo()
16:44 Maddingue has joined #perl6
16:44 evalbot6 Error: Can't modify constant item: VCode (MkCode {isMulti = False, subName = "&main::foo", subType = SubRoutine, subEnv = Just (MkEnv {envContext = CxtItem (mkType "Code"), envLValue = True, envLexical = MkPad {"$?1":=[(<ref>,<ref>)],"$_":=[(<ref>,<ref>)],"$code":=[(<ref>,<ref>)],"$lang":=[(<ref>,<ref>)],"%_":=[(<ref>,<ref>)],"&?BLOCK_EXIT":=[(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>)],"&break":=[(<ref>,<ref>),(<r
16:45 iblech ?eval sub foo { 'foo' }; &foo := sub { 'bar' }; foo()
16:45 evalbot6 'foo'
16:45 iblech ?eval sub foo { 'foo' }; my &baz = sub { 'bar' }; baz()
16:45 evalbot6 'bar'
16:45 iblech ?eval sub foo { 'foo' }; BEGIN { &foo := sub { 'bar' } } foo()
16:46 evalbot6 'foo'
16:47 pdcawley ?eval sub foo {'foo'} ; my &saved_foo = &foo; &foo := sub {'bar'}; say foo(); &saved_foo()
16:47 evalbot6 foo 'foo'
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17:32 xinming anyone here("alive") ?
17:33 * Khisanth checks pulse
17:33 Khisanth "maybe"
17:34 * Odin- does the same.
17:34 Odin- Nope.
17:34 broquaint has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:36 xinming Khisanth: Can you speak Chinese please?
17:38 autrijus rehi
17:39 stevan_ has joined #perl6
17:42 Khisanth "speak" hehe yes, "write" no :)
17:43 stevan_ suprisingly it is much easier to design a meta-model when you are refactoring an ugly hack then it is when you are designing from scratch
17:43 xinming Khisanth: 能不能看到我打的字?
17:44 Khisanth also can't read!
17:44 whiteg chinese...
17:54 xinming Ok, I just wish to ask "if you can see what I wrote."
17:55 xinming hmm, I have a question, I wanna know if <<Perl 6 Essentials>> is too old to read.
17:57 whiteg xinming: I can see what you wrote
17:58 velcro has joined #perl6
17:58 xinming whiteg: 请问一下,就是perl6 的语法是不是已经确定了?
17:59 xinming Perl6 Essentials 那本书我看了一下,不过不知道那个里面介绍的东西是不是都已经过时了
18:00 Odin-LAP O_o
18:00 xinming Odin-: >_<
18:00 xinming Odin-: close your eyes... please ... >_<
18:00 xinming :-)
18:00 * whiteg think it's not a good idea typing Chinese here..^^
18:00 whiteg xinming: how about i msg you?
18:01 xinming whiteg: well, as your wish. :-)
18:01 autrijus xinming: your question was, is perl6's syntax fully defined.
18:01 autrijus and the answer is no.
18:01 autrijus the things you read in P6Essentials is about 50% outdated.
18:01 xinming autrijus: :-S
18:01 autrijus problem is you can't easily tell which 50%.
18:01 autrijus fortunately, the synopsis files are kept reasonably up to date.
18:01 xinming autrijus: that's exactly what I want to know.
18:02 autrijus see dev.perl.org/ for the synopses.
18:02 autrijus those are only 5% or so outdated.
18:02 autrijus and we can update them easier than paper books.
18:02 autrijus finally, you can look into t/* in the pugs tree to see the currently accepted syntaxes.
18:02 autrijus that's about it :)
18:03 autrijus the syntax will keep changing until the 6.0 release.
18:04 autrijus which is quite some time away
18:04 autrijus so during the meantime you can join the fun and help shaping the language :)
18:04 autrijus it's a limited-time offer!
18:04 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:04 xinming hmm, I am not clever as you. :-)
18:05 autrijus xinming: nah, you need just to try using pugs and complain about bugs :)
18:05 autrijus (or inconvenient syntax)
18:05 autrijus stevan_: you're not in irc.perl.org #yapcna? someone just praised your DBD::Mock
18:06 stevan_ ah
18:07 stevan_ yapcna?
18:07 stevan_ I am the only on there :)
18:07 stevan_ wrong yapcna I assume
18:07 stevan_ oh well
18:07 xinming autrijus: I've install pugs. In fact, I use debian, and I always prefer using testing rather than unstable. But for install pugs. I choose unstable. :-)
18:07 autrijus cool :)
18:08 autrijus er sorry #yapc
18:08 autrijus thinko
18:08 stevan_ thanks
18:12 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
18:13 stevan_ is there any place to plug in
18:13 stevan_ I am running out of battery
18:13 autrijus yes... right behind me
18:14 autrijus those are two-holes
18:14 stevan_ didnt work
18:16 stevan_ horray
18:16 stevan_ I am saved
18:16 Darren_Duncan hello folks
18:16 * autrijus loads stevan_
18:16 stevan_ thank you autrijus-san
18:16 autrijus :)
18:16 justatheory has quit IRC ()
18:17 autrijus Darren_Duncan: unhashify is fixed
18:17 svnbot6 r5025, autrijus++ | * move do.t from unspecced to specced
18:17 Darren_Duncan sounds great
18:17 Darren_Duncan I still have to update from yesterday ... will get back to you
18:17 autrijus sure, take your time... I'll just go on with releng
18:18 Darren_Duncan now updated to 5026
18:19 encryptio has joined #perl6
18:19 velcro is this the right place to ask about parrot 0.2.1 not building
18:19 autrijus irc.perl.org #parrot is the canonical place
18:19 autrijus or perl6-internals@perl.org
18:20 velcro thanks
18:21 gaal say, lwall's keynote speech isn't online yet somewhere, is it?
18:23 vel has left
18:23 svnbot6 r5026, autrijus++ | * fix unhashify.t - testing .does/.isa/smartmatch on a reference
18:23 svnbot6 r5026, autrijus++ |   should not deref it.
18:24 autrijus I have an older copy: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/larry-communitybuilding.ppt
18:24 autrijus (the one lwall used in russia)
18:24 gaal shukran, ya autrijus!
18:24 autrijus I didn't spot a difference
18:24 pmichaud has joined #perl6
18:25 PerlJam greets pm
18:25 autrijus greetings pmichaud-san
18:25 pmichaud greets, pj
18:25 PerlJam autrijus: lwall is the master of laziness ;)
18:25 pmichaud greetings, autrijus
18:27 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:28 PerlJam autrijus: hmm.  what's with all of the cairns on lwall's slides?
18:28 pmichaud pj:  the first slide of rocks represented "geeks"
18:28 autrijus community structure
18:29 pmichaud the second slide represented linux, with Linus on top, lieutenants beneath, and the rest of the Linux users as the ground ("dirt")
18:29 PerlJam we're a pile of rocks?  That cuts many ways ;-)
18:29 Boogie has quit IRC (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
18:29 pmichaud the other rock piles were different structures
18:30 pmichaud pj: guess you should've been here :-)
18:31 Khisanth hmm the users are dirt?
18:32 autrijus "in that particular metaphor of linux community"
18:32 pmichaud metaphors often bring about interesting suggestions :-)
18:32 autrijus ...but sometimes a camel is just a camel
18:43 Darren_Duncan seems to be a new bug with Test.pm and/or Pugs ...
18:44 Darren_Duncan when using isa_ok, it fails with a 'expected' and 'got' being reported the same value
18:44 autrijus Darren_Duncan: just fixed
18:44 Darren_Duncan okay
18:48 justatheory has joined #perl6
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18:48 svnbot6 r5027, autrijus++ | * `$hashref.does(Hash)` now returns true
18:48 svnbot6 r5027, autrijus++ | * more test cleanups
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18:59 PerlJam what's with all the joining?
18:59 pmichaud__ I dunno, I keep getting disconnected :-(
19:00 autrijus me too
19:00 PerlJam Someone should have sprung for one of those satellite connections to keep you up always  ;)
19:00 Weems has quit IRC (Client Quit)
19:00 obra I'm on yapc-8 and it's been happy
19:00 autrijus stevan / iblech: ext/Config-Tiny/t/basic.t
19:00 autrijus I'm on _1 with mode 11b
19:00 autrijus switching to 11g makes it randomly not get packets
19:01 autrijus Config::Tiny is failing one test
19:01 autrijus #        Got: '[ newsection section]
19:01 svnbot6 r5028, autrijus++ | * fix Test/t/3-output.t when running from pugs root path.
19:01 autrijus not sure which side is the bug
19:04 pmichaud___ has joined #perl6
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19:09 Darren_Duncan the Test.pm problem is gone
19:14 Darren_Duncan question ...
19:14 svnbot6 r5029, autrijus++ | * `pugs -CPIL -e 'say 123'` for dumping PIL from code
19:14 pmichaud autrijus++
19:14 Darren_Duncan if I have 2 functions, one wrapping the other, where both take a scalar argument holding a hash ref ...
19:15 Darren_Duncan what is the best way to ensure that the inner function receives a 'Hash' and not a 'Scalar'?
19:16 Darren_Duncan in other words, Perl 5 like behaviour where, when you copy a variable containing a reference, saying 'ref' or 'does' on the original and the copy yield the same answer?
19:16 pmichaud__ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:17 Darren_Duncan reducing problem ...
19:17 Darren_Duncan ?eval 1+1
19:17 evalbot6 2
19:19 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
19:20 dudley How out of date is docs/02Internals.pod? It says it was last updated 6/03/05. Three weeks in pugs time is about thirty years of real time, isn't it?
19:22 Darren_Duncan ?eval sub foo ( $arg ) { return "foo got a '{$arg.ref}'" } sub bar ( $arg ) { return "bar got a '{$arg.ref}', "~foo($arg) } bar( hash() );
19:22 evalbot6 'bar got a \'Hash\', foo got a \'Scalar::Const\''
19:23 stevan__ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:23 Darren_Duncan the question is, how do I get foo() and bar() to receive the same thing?
19:30 autrijus ...you wait until Scalar::Const is made transparent :-/
19:30 svnbot6 r5030, autrijus++ | * include prelude bindings in PIL output.
19:30 svnbot6 r5031, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : simplified t_LKT_Util.pm because Pugs now handles hashref.does(Hash) properly
19:30 autrijus luqui and I has identified the bug with the default `is constant`
19:30 autrijus you can negate it with `is rw`
19:30 autrijus I will implement transparent refs
19:30 Darren_Duncan okay, so that's in progress
19:31 autrijus yup
19:31 Darren_Duncan any time frame?
19:31 autrijus it's a design bug
19:31 autrijus yes... I think after my talk tomorrow ;)
19:31 autrijus I still had not done any slides
19:31 pdcawley Yikes.
19:31 Darren_Duncan are you trying to make your slides now?
19:31 pdcawley 3 hours?
19:31 autrijus yup.
19:31 autrijus Darren_Duncan: don't ask :-/
19:31 pdcawley (Yikes)**2
19:32 Darren_Duncan right, I'll put off further questions until after the talk
19:33 Darren_Duncan sorry about the slides question
19:35 pmichaud_ has joined #perl6
19:35 iblech ?eval my %h = (a => 1, b => 2, c => 3); for grep {1} sort keys %h -> $k { say $k }
19:35 evalbot6 abc undef
19:35 iblech ?eval my %h = (a => 1, b => 2, c => 3); for sort keys %h -> $k { say $k }
19:35 evalbot6 a b c undef
19:35 pmichaud has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
19:35 iblech autrijus: That's the reason why Config::Tiny can't write new .inis currently
19:36 pmichaud_ is now known as pmichaud
19:38 masak iblech: where does the undef come from?
19:38 autrijus Darren_Duncan: nah, don't be sorry -- I'm just cranky
19:38 Darren_Duncan gotcha
19:39 iblech masak: It's the thing the last statement evaluated to
19:39 Darren_Duncan in any event, I'm trying the 'is rw' workaround for now ...
19:40 masak iblech: in other words, that's not what's important, the spaces are, right?
19:40 iblech masak: Yep
19:40 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:40 Darren_Duncan and it worked, too
19:40 masak iblech: any idea where they come from?
19:41 masak looks to me grep is all the difference
19:41 iblech masak: No... it seems to be because of grep {...} sort. Only sort and only grep work, but not those two together... writing a test
19:42 masak iblech++
19:43 autrijus iblech++
19:43 autrijus iblech: I'm working on the slides for the next few minutes -- if you got tuit please investigate the guts :)
19:43 autrijus (but otherwise a test is fine)
19:44 masak i was just about to go home and sleep
19:44 masak but this is too exciting, now i'm staying
19:45 stevan__ has joined #perl6
19:45 iblech autrijus: Unfortunately, I have to go off in a minute -- school and test tomorrow (but, good news: vacation in four weeks or so :))
19:45 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
19:45 svnbot6 r5032, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to PIL.hs.
19:45 svnbot6 r5032, iblech++ | * Config::Tiny -- Worked around pugsbug, Config::Tiny passes all tests now
19:45 svnbot6 r5032, iblech++ |   again.
19:45 svnbot6 r5032, iblech++ | * Filed new test for this bug: t/pugsbugs/grep-and-sort-in-for.t
19:45 svnbot6 r5032, iblech++ | * POE -- Skipped tests, *much* work still to be done.
19:45 nothingmuch hola camelmonks
19:45 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
19:46 iblech Ok, gotta go &
19:46 masak nothingmuch: hola
19:46 iblech has quit IRC ("off, school tomorrow")
19:46 * nothingmuch 's computer died
19:46 nothingmuch everyone cry please
19:46 Boogie_ has joined #perl6
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19:47 Darren_Duncan waaaa
19:47 wilx Died?
19:47 wilx How do computers die?
19:47 nothingmuch they stop booting
19:47 wilx Interesting.
19:48 nothingmuch now i'm franticly trying to buy a new one
19:48 * masak cries
19:48 PerlJam nothingmuch: buy me one too while you're at it  :)
19:48 Darren_Duncan is the old one not fixable?
19:48 nothingmuch Darren_duncan - not enough tim
19:48 nothingmuch e
19:48 nothingmuch masak - my current problem is with payments
19:49 nothingmuch canadian and israeli credit card systems work out very differently
19:49 luqui has joined #perl6
19:49 luqui_ has joined #perl6
19:49 nothingmuch luqui - i'm on stevan's laptop... want to work on PP5?
19:49 luqui_ has left "Leaving"
19:49 * castaway_ hugs nothingmuch
19:49 castaway_ (poor compy)
19:49 luqui yeah..
19:49 nothingmuch castaway!
19:49 nothingmuch where are you?
19:50 nothingmuch (luqui, that is)
19:50 castaway_ lancaster
19:50 nothingmuch actually, where are you two?
19:50 nothingmuch ah!
19:51 castaway_ is now known as castaway
19:51 nothingmuch how was your flight?
19:51 nothingmuch or was it flights?
19:51 nothingmuch wait, aren't you supposed to reach germany via amsterdam and all that?
19:51 luqui oh, me
19:51 luqui i'm in ingy's talk
19:52 luqui but I want to go to black magic... maybe
19:52 nothingmuch oh, i'm just outside
19:52 castaway nono, we drive back to lancaster, we're still in the country til friday
19:52 nothingmuch black magic sounds liek a fun talk
19:52 nothingmuch wait, lancaster is in US?
19:52 nothingmuch it sounds like a british name for a place
19:52 castaway James wants to know if there was anything interesting in the keynote
19:52 castaway yes
19:52 nothingmuch uh - keynote - no
19:52 castaway it came from there. as many US place names did
19:53 luqui I found the keynote interesting
19:53 nothingmuch oh wait, i read that as "new"
19:53 luqui autrijus - poke
19:53 nothingmuch well, it was an interesting talk
19:53 nothingmuch but not much to say about it
19:53 nothingmuch it was larryisms, mostly
19:54 luqui it's like trying to summarize an instrumental
19:54 castaway ;)
19:56 autrijus luqui: peek
19:56 autrijus I'm still in the golfing talk
19:56 castaway hey autrijus
19:56 autrijus heya castaway
19:57 obra how's the golfing talk?
19:57 theorb has joined #perl6
19:57 autrijus just started. it's fun
19:58 obra hm. perhaps i'll pop over
19:58 Limbic_Region castaway ping
19:59 castaway hey Limbic
19:59 * Limbic_Region was AFK
19:59 Limbic_Region being Superman as it were
19:59 Limbic_Region what's up?
20:00 autrijus just handed commit bit to particle
20:00 pmichaud has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:01 theorb So nobody announced anything nifty at YAPC, like pugs being blessed?
20:01 svnbot6 r5033, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : added 'is rw' to all method/sub args as temp workaround to 'transparent refs' problem, uncommented input-check test in Message.new()
20:01 svnbot6 r5034, luqui++ |  r30@Queen-of-Hearts:  luqui | 2005-06-27 15:58:34 -0400
20:01 svnbot6 r5034, luqui++ |  Checkin and so forth.
20:02 theorb With Larry and Allison and Patrik all being there, I halfway expected that to happen.
20:02 autrijus theorb: uh, no, I think pugs will stay pugs for quite a while longer :)
20:02 autrijus read my journal for why.
20:02 theorb OK.
20:02 autrijus (in Day 142)
20:05 dmo has joined #perl6
20:05 theorb Ah, that.
20:06 autrijus yeah, that.
20:07 autrijus I don't really care about the name though :)
20:07 autrijus <- optimising for fun
20:09 nothingmuch oof!
20:09 meppl what does "oof" mean?
20:10 theorb Think of the sound one makes when picking up something heavy.
20:10 meppl *hehe
20:10 theorb Oh, is there a release yet?  I'm guessing not.
20:11 nothingmuch meppl: it's a sound people make they are frustrated
20:11 autrijus theorb: not yet. depends on my slidemaking I may or may not get there tomorrow
20:11 theorb OK.
20:11 autrijus this release could have been the most heavily regressing one ever
20:11 autrijus though we're doing well on damage control :)
20:11 obra autrijus: RT bof tonight/msg autrijus RT bof tonight sometime
20:11 obra er. sorry
20:11 theorb Probably won't have a new make system I think is ready to check in before then anyway.
20:12 autrijus obra: k
20:12 autrijus ooh.
20:12 autrijus theorb: you can check in anyway just don't enable it
20:12 obra ah. 4:45
20:12 autrijus right after talk?
20:13 theorb I'd prefer it not be an enable/disable thing, as that means leaving both ways to do it around.
20:13 autrijus theorb: er, once the new sys works we just kill the old sys
20:13 autrijus "disabled" meaning it's work in progress, but more visible
20:13 obra autrijus: yeah, I didn't schedule it
20:14 Weems has joined #perl6
20:16 autrijus hrm, I may need to crash and nap a bit
20:17 autrijus :-/
20:17 autrijus how long is the bof?
20:18 obra no fucking clue
20:18 autrijus :-/
20:24 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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20:26 autrijus hrm. my head is spinning :-/
20:26 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("hometime")
20:27 * autrijus heads back to the room to rest a bit
20:27 castaway intensive brain expansion going on ;)
20:32 dmo_ has joined #perl6
20:32 svnbot6 r5035, masak++ | * Filed new test, similar to the one iblech++ found:
20:32 svnbot6 r5035, masak++ | t/pugsbugs/map-and-sort-in-for.t
20:33 arcady has quit IRC (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
20:33 * masak has been looking at the ugly-print step-by-step output of pugs re this bug
20:33 masak it seems an extra set of parentheses is added in the "grep {1} sort" case
20:33 masak and also "map {1} sort"
20:34 masak it looks like this: "((a, b, c))"
20:34 masak whereas when using only sort, or only grep, it doesn't
20:34 masak hth
20:36 masak (i tried looking at src/Pugs/Prim/List.hs where I believe the bug is, but unfortunately Haskell still only looks like advanced mathematical cursing to me)
20:36 masak 'nite
20:36 masak &
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21:04 autrijus the ./foo bug is fixed.
21:04 autrijus (it was parsed as 0 / foo)
21:04 autrijus thanks luqui for reporting it and successfully prevented my sleep :)
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21:06 svnbot6 r5036, autrijus++ | * fix `./method` parsing so it won't mean `0 / method`.
21:06 svnbot6 r5037, autrijus++ | * `use Module--perl5` in docs and examples are now `use perl5:Module`.
21:07 meppl looks better :-P
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21:11 PerlJam "use perl5:Module"?
21:11 PerlJam that doesn't quite fit into my "syntax that follows from other stuff that I know"
21:12 saorge has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
21:13 geoffb The generalization that for any language foo you can say 'use foo:Module' makes me happy, actually.
21:13 geoffb Much less hackish than "perl5 is an author's name"
21:13 theorb Aye.
21:13 Khisanth so ....
21:14 theorb That's what you get for sitting Larry in an accessable coutch where you can ask questions of him directly.
21:14 Khisanth use C:perl; ? :)
21:14 theorb Except that C doesn't have the concept of modules.
21:14 Khisanth I was thinking libraries
21:14 theorb use C:stdio.h is somewhat more likely.
21:15 Khisanth then how do you indicate which .so to use?
21:15 Khisanth use C:foo.h(some.so)?
21:15 geoffb theorb, I was thinking about the XS prefix stuff -- so that using a module in C would actually load the library that had the right prefixes (gl/GL_, etc.)
21:16 geoffb How to define the mapping is a good question . . .
21:16 theorb I think this is a job for something other then a use C:whatever;.
21:17 geoffb I'm sure ingy would have some ideas . . . .
21:19 PerlJam use C++:foo;
21:19 Khisanth use Person:PerlJam;
21:19 PerlJam use <suspend the normal rules of perl6 syntax> <some stuff here>
21:20 PerlJam is how that reads to me really
21:20 lightstep has joined #perl6
21:20 PerlJam And really it's beyond that.  Are these foreign language modules searched for in @INC?
21:20 PerlJam Why not in the language-specific version of @INC?
21:21 Khisanth they are searched in their own version of @INC of course!
21:21 integral eg. for Haskell via Cabal
21:21 theorb I suspect if there's a language specified, it's up to the thing that handles the language.
21:21 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:21 Khisanth perl6 will be all knowing :)
21:21 theorb IE, the rule for foo:bar should be what a foo programmer expects, which doesn't neccessarly bare much relation to what a perl6 programmer would expect.
21:21 integral is there anything spec'ed for this feature beyond the syntax?
21:21 geoffb perl6.ask('What is the answer to life, the universe, and everything?')
21:21 svnbot6 r5038, geoffb++ | Added hack.pod entries for ext/Perl-Compiler/ and ext/WTemplate
21:21 velcro has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:22 theorb integral: No.
21:22 Khisanth theorb: it should do what a Perl programmer would expect
21:22 geoffb integral, I think it was an on-the-fly ruling
21:22 Khisanth rather, Perl should do what a Perl programmer would expect :)
21:22 PerlJam It still begs for a quoting operator in my mind.
21:22 theorb AFAIK, even the spec isn't much of a spec, just a larry-on-the-couch ruling.
21:23 PerlJam use Foreign 'language' => 'module';  (or something like that)
21:23 saorge has joined #perl6
21:23 geoffb PerlJam, no reason that use language:module couldn't be sugar for that
21:24 PerlJam geoffb: what happens when the : gets in the way?  How do you circumvent it?
21:24 geoffb PerlJam, how can it get in the way?
21:24 integral use inline "haskell" => "import Data.Map", :wrap_all;
21:24 PerlJam geoffb: If the language name ends in a colon.  If the module name begins with a colon.
21:24 geoffb PerlJam, hmmm, unless there is a language that likes to start module names with a single colon . . . .
21:25 geoffb Otherwise, I don't think it's ambiguous.
21:25 geoffb PerlJam, that's theoretically true -- but are there any currently existing languages that do that?
21:26 geoffb And if so, we can always disambiguate with whitespace, I suppose
21:26 geoffb Anyway, I think that's edge enough to be fixed when it's actually needed
21:26 geoffb (by somebody who didn't just create a language like that to annoy us)
21:27 Darren_Duncan question: is there anything hyper-operator like that will do a cross-join of array arguments; eg, a hyperlike-stitch can take ['a','b'] and ['c','d'] and return ['ac','ad','bc','bd']?  ... or should I be using a 'map' to do this?
21:28 theorb Hm, you want some combination of yen and join.
21:28 arcady has joined #perl6
21:28 Darren_Duncan by contrast, the existing hyper-stitch would return ['ac','bd']
21:28 integral join '', any<a b>, any<c d> ?
21:29 Darren_Duncan will try those ...
21:29 PerlJam integral: I don't think that would work
21:29 Darren_Duncan ?eval join '', any<a b>, any<c d>
21:29 evalbot6 'any(VStr "a",VStr "b",VStr "c",VStr "d")'
21:29 theorb I don't think you want an any.
21:29 integral *sigh* I still hate junctions
21:29 Darren_Duncan didn't think so
21:30 theorb Junctions have very little in the way of order gaurnetees.
21:30 justatheory has joined #perl6
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21:30 geoffb Darren_Duncan, there's always the stuff in examples/nested_loops that you could reuse
21:30 Darren_Duncan essentially, I want to replace a double-for-loop with an elegant single for loop
21:30 Darren_Duncan I have a nested loop already
21:30 integral do { a <- ["a", "b"]; b <- ["c", "d"]; return a ++ b } :: String
21:30 Darren_Duncan wanted to see if there was a single option
21:30 integral s/String/[String]/
21:30 Darren_Duncan will try some tests
21:31 PerlJam map { $_  >>~<< <c d> } <a b>
21:31 Darren_Duncan I thought of using map already ... just seeing if there was a way to avoid it
21:32 Darren_Duncan still, I guess I'll just use map for now, since I know how to use it
21:32 geoffb Don't just use it directly, define a new op for it that we can all use.  ;-)
21:33 Darren_Duncan that's a matter for p6l me thinks
21:33 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:35 * geoffb tries for the first time building pugs with both Perl 5 and Parrot embedding turned on
21:35 geoffb This should be interesting
21:35 integral use Monads; [<a b>] >>= -> $a { [<c d>] >>= -> $b { $a ~ $b } }
21:38 Darren_Duncan ?eval <a b>.map:{ $_ »~« <c d> }
21:38 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:39 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ »~« [<c d>] }
21:39 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:39 arcady ?eval <a b>.map { $_ »~« <c d> }
21:39 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:40 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>]
21:40 evalbot6 ['a', 'b']
21:40 Darren_Duncan ? eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ }
21:41 Darren_Duncan ? ='eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ }
21:41 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ }
21:41 evalbot6 ('a', 'b')
21:41 Limbic_Region_ has joined #perl6
21:41 dudley has joined #perl6
21:41 Limbic_Region has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
21:41 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region
21:41 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ »~« 'z' }
21:41 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:42 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ ~ 'z' }
21:42 evalbot6 ('az', 'bz')
21:42 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ >>~<< 'z' }
21:42 evalbot6 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
21:42 arcady right
21:42 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ >>~<< ['z' ]}
21:42 evalbot6 ('az', 'bz')
21:43 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ >>~<< [<y z>] }
21:43 evalbot6 ('ay', 'az', 'by', 'bz')
21:43 Darren_Duncan so the Unicode ... or other encoding issue was part of the problem
21:44 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ >>~<< [<c d>] }
21:44 evalbot6 ('ac', 'ad', 'bc', 'bd')
21:44 Darren_Duncan ?eval [<a b>].map:{ $_ »~« [<c d>] }
21:44 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:45 theorb (Evil Encoding Issues)--
21:46 Darren_Duncan problem is IRC specific, since my local pugs handles that one
21:49 justatheory has quit IRC ()
21:50 Limbic_Region theorb - your better half about?
21:52 geoffb ..oO( I love it when album shuffle brings up something I haven't listened to in months )
21:52 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:54 * castaway is
21:55 geoffb has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:01 lightstep waiting is
22:02 geoffb has joined #perl6
22:03 geoffb Note to Linux kernel:  When a compile causes the OOM killer to go on a rampage, the proper process to kill is the compile, NOT THE X SERVER.
22:03 geoffb *huff*
22:05 geoffb Speaking of which, while I can build pugs just fine with just perl 5 embedding, pugs + perl 5 + parrot OOM's during link.
22:05 castaway heh
22:05 geoffb That seems . . . bad
22:06 integral the link is quite intensive 8-)
22:06 geoffb Just rebooted fresh, going to see if I can link without any cruft in mem.  After that, I could try doing 'init 1' before linking.  ;-)
22:07 integral adding more swap from a file might be enough to do it
22:09 geoffb Man, been a while since I used a swapfile.  Not a bad thought, though
22:10 integral from what I remember 768MB is probably the least VM you'd want when compiling pugs
22:11 * geoffb coughs
22:11 geoffb OUCH
22:11 integral but having said that I can't have that much on my 64MB box, but that was a minimum link
22:11 geoffb I've got around 590MB of VM.
22:11 geoffb Didn't expect that to be an issue
22:14 wilx Hmm...pugs compilation doesn't take much more than 120 MB for ghc iirc.
22:15 geoffb GHC is slow, but that's not the killer.  It's the link.
22:15 geoffb s/slow/excruciating/, actually
22:16 wilx Ah. I have noticed that xmms starts cutting the sound during pugs' link time.
22:17 wilx I always blamed it on FreeBSD's stupid scheduler.
22:17 geoffb yeah, it's pretty brutal.  Before the damn thing killed X, everything got REALLY unresponsive, despite it being a 2 CPU box
22:17 wilx Some priority inversion sort of thing I thought.
22:18 Darren_Duncan I finally got the last Locale-KeyedTest suite to pass all its tests ... but the workaround to do it is NASTY
22:19 Darren_Duncan its nasty in that test suite files are hard-coded into the modle
22:19 Darren_Duncan file names
22:19 geoffb ?!?
22:19 Darren_Duncan because "require $foo" doesn't work in Pugs right now
22:19 Darren_Duncan only "require Foo" works
22:20 geoffb I thought you just needed to do "$foo = 'Bar.pm'; require $foo" -- i.e., the '.pm' was required for indirect require
22:20 geoffb Or is that unimp?
22:21 Darren_Duncan if you think adding a ".pm" will make it work, then I'll try that ...
22:21 Darren_Duncan the details ... when a plain "require Bar;" works, a "my $foo = 'Bar'; require $foo;" fails with a "Can't locate Bar.pm in @*INC" error.
22:21 geoffb ghc peaked at 131 MB virtual memory
22:21 Darren_Duncan testing ...
22:22 geoffb linking now, ld is at 133 MB and climbing
22:22 geoffb whoot! LINK SUCCESSFUL
22:22 cognominal has joined #perl6
22:22 theorb Odd.
22:23 Darren_Duncan confirmed that problem still exists (I last checked it yesterday) ... will try the '.pm' thing now
22:23 geoffb Darren_Duncan, I hadn't tried it myself, I just thought I read something about it being the same behavior as P5.
22:23 geoffb nod
22:23 Darren_Duncan on that note, Perl 5 doesn't work either
22:23 geoffb It also could be s/being/supposed to be/, of course
22:23 Darren_Duncan I had to do a string eval in perl 5 to make it work whereas a block eval should work
22:24 geoffb With or without the PM?
22:24 geoffb er, .pm
22:24 Darren_Duncan always without
22:25 pjcj Have you read perldoc -f require?
22:25 Darren_Duncan I think the .pm addition worked
22:26 geoffb pjcj, I was just about to make the same recommendation.  ;-)
22:31 Darren_Duncan okay, so while the ".pm" addition works for require, I have another outstanding issue ... invoking a subroutine in that newly required file
22:31 geoffb Lemme guess . . . import fails?
22:31 Darren_Duncan invoking $template_module_name::get_text_by_key( 'foo' ) gives an Undeclared variable message
22:32 geoffb ah
22:32 cognominal_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:32 geoffb Well, it's a bit hackish, but you could bind them manually:
22:32 Darren_Duncan the '.' form, which is incorrect anyway as it isn't a class, says no compatable subroutine on the latter half
22:33 geoffb our &get_text_by_key := $template_module_name::can('get_text_by_key')
22:33 geoffb or somesuch, lemme check
22:33 Darren_Duncan last time I tried to use 'can' it was unimplemented ... maybe not now though
22:33 geoffb s/::/./
22:34 geoffb But again, haven't tried it with a variable instead of a bareword classname
22:34 pjcj are you looking for the equivalent of ${template_module_name}::get_text_by_key ?
22:35 Darren_Duncan sort of
22:35 Darren_Duncan a minute ...
22:35 geoffb You know, pugs parsing seems oddly fragile.  Like the feel I get from stuff that has lots of special cases, rather than a few rules that get combined out the wazoo.  And yet it's an FP thing to do simple stuff combined widely, so I have some dissonance going here
22:36 geoffb WTF?  Half of my message just disappeared
22:36 Darren_Duncan in Perl 5, a bare "$text = $template_module_name->get_text_by_key( $msg_key );" works
22:36 Darren_Duncan I wanted the Perl 6 equivalent
22:37 Darren_Duncan btw, I will try using the new ".pm" thing I learned with my Perl 5 code and see if it works there ... then I can ditch my string evals
22:38 geoffb You also have to do s,::,/,g
22:38 geoffb But that's all in perldoc -f require
22:39 Darren_Duncan that's nasty
22:39 geoffb Sugar on top of sugar
22:40 geoffb (Ingredients: dextrose, sucrose, fructose, galactose, sucralose, . . . )
22:40 Darren_Duncan I would expect 'require' to work the same regardless of whether the class name is a bareword or in a variable, meaning with :: and no .pm
22:40 Darren_Duncan I only expect 'do' to need that stuff
22:40 geoffb The /../...pm version is the real one.  The :: bareword is sugar
22:40 Darren_Duncan I see
22:41 geoffb It's The Perl 5 Way.  ;-)
22:41 Darren_Duncan and yet all the perl 5 docs and examples I've seen say to do it the :: way
22:41 Darren_Duncan and I've been using the language since 1998
22:41 geoffb Yep, because only in the case that you want to load a dynamically-chosen module will you ever notice the difference.
22:41 geoffb So why confuse people with the facts?
22:42 * geoffb is only half serious, BTW
22:42 * geoffb also has writer's block, bah
22:42 Darren_Duncan that probably explains why modules like 'DBI' are doing the same string-eval that I've been doing even though they may know what you've been saying
22:43 Darren_Duncan there must be some impetus to prefer that form ... you keep the sugar
22:43 geoffb I guess
22:44 geoffb The only thing I can think is at some point maybe there was a platform that Perl ported to that didn't emulate the unix filesystem as needed
22:44 geoffb For some years now, I think just about every Perl port has done so, but perhaps something early didn't
22:44 geoffb (Not that I have touched OpenVMS or goodness willing ever will)
22:44 Darren_Duncan another thing is, doesn't the "::" form also check the include paths?  That's what I want in this case
22:45 Darren_Duncan otoh, the .pm form seems to as well
22:45 geoffb (For that, I'd honestly have to check the docs)
22:45 Darren_Duncan since the module in question is in an include path, but it works anyway
22:45 geoffb good.
22:46 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
22:46 nothingmuch hola!
22:46 nothingmuch autrijus: i have a new laptop!
22:46 * geoffb is thankfully everything isn't just sugar over a Turing Machine implementation
22:46 geoffb nothingmuch, yay!
22:46 nothingmuch i need to copy everything from the old disk
22:46 geoffb Wadja get?
22:46 nothingmuch do you have a 2.5" thingy we could use?
22:46 nothingmuch geoffb: a powerbook 17"
22:46 geoffb Mmmm, had one of those at my last job.
22:47 nothingmuch it is very very very very yummy
22:47 geoffb Hated the sharp edge of the handrest area, tho
22:47 nothingmuch they're not that sharp
22:47 autrijus nothingmuch: woot!
22:47 autrijus nothingmuch: the ./ thing is fixed
22:47 geoffb Plugged in an external KB to avoid giving my wrists fits
22:47 nothingmuch or at least I haven't noticed yet
22:47 nothingmuch hoorah!
22:47 nothingmuch i can start working again
22:47 nothingmuch and this time even compile locally (just finished installing xcode, ghc is next)
22:47 theorb has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:48 geoffb But I do recall the display was just gorgeous
22:48 nothingmuch are you at the hotel?
22:48 geoffb Get enough RAM to do the link in mem?  ;-)
22:48 geoffb nothingmuch, are you asking me that?
22:48 geoffb (If so, no -- can't afford to go to the conferences these days)
22:48 nothingmuch 1gb
22:48 nothingmuch no, i'm asking autrijus
22:48 justatheory has quit IRC ()
22:49 Darren_Duncan ?eval my $foo = 3; $foo.can( 'bar' );
22:49 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&can"
22:49 nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: i have a new mac!
22:49 Darren_Duncan great
22:49 autrijus nothingmuch: yes but I'd like you not coming over
22:49 Darren_Duncan I have a 3-yr-old Mac
22:49 autrijus unless you want to write my slides for me
22:50 nothingmuch hah
22:50 autrijus at which point you're welcome
22:50 nothingmuch do you have any way to connect a 2.5" disk to another computer
22:50 Darren_Duncan but its a desktop, not a portable
22:50 nothingmuch via firewire, tcp/ip, or whatever?
22:50 Darren_Duncan don't you mean 3.5"?
22:50 geoffb Writing English outside of IRC seems to make autrijus cranky.  :-)
22:50 lightstep has quit IRC ("late late late")
22:50 Darren_Duncan or do you mean a hard disk?
22:50 nothingmuch yep
22:50 nothingmuch no, a laptop disk
22:50 Darren_Duncan ah
22:50 Darren_Duncan hard disk
22:51 * coral moves forward approximately one day of scrollback, still 2 days behind
22:51 geoffb nothingmuch, if your old laptop is a Mac, even if it won't be able to boot normally, you might be able to boot it into "Firewire Target" mode, and firewire link the too
22:51 nothingmuch no, i tried that
22:51 geoffb :-(
22:52 Darren_Duncan whether you can boot from firewire depends on your firmware being up to date
22:52 Darren_Duncan on the drive
22:52 nothingmuch Darren_Duncan: the laptop is completely dead
22:52 Darren_Duncan so you want to take the drive out of there then?
22:52 nothingmuch yep
22:53 Darren_Duncan if you can't fit the drive in a computer, you could get an external enclosure for it and/or some temporary connection
22:54 nothingmuch someone is bringing one tomorrow so i can do that
22:54 nothingmuch but i'd like to copy ASAP
22:58 Limbic_Region has quit IRC (Success)
23:13 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:21 svnbot6 r5039, Darren_Duncan++ | Locale-KeyedText : this module is now complete, passing all of its tests, and updated to version 1.5.0 to match its Perl 5 version 1.05; the Translator.translate_message() method was largely rewritten; a NASTY hack still exists in that function preventing it from working except with the test suite, due to Pugs not supporting module_name::bar() yet ... fix that and module should be generally useful
23:22 autrijus oh no, darren is talking to me in the commit logs
23:22 Darren_Duncan not specifically
23:23 autrijus ?eval module Foo; sub bar { 3 }; module main; Foo::bar
23:23 Darren_Duncan your name wasn't in it so I shouldn't have woken you from your sleep
23:23 evalbot6 3
23:23 autrijus what wasn't working?
23:23 Darren_Duncan try it with $bar = 'Foo'
23:23 autrijus ?eval module Foo; our $bar = 'Foo'; module main; say $Foo::bar
23:23 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$Foo::bar"
23:23 autrijus ?eval module Foo; our $bar = 'Foo'; module main; $Foo::bar
23:24 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$Foo::bar"
23:24 autrijus ?eval package Foo; our $bar = 'Foo'; module main; $Foo::bar
23:24 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$Foo::bar"
23:24 Darren_Duncan that's the problem
23:24 pdcawley ?eval package Foo {...}; our $Foo::bar = 1; $Foo::bar
23:24 evalbot6 *** ... - not yet implemented     at <eval> line 1, column 14-17
23:24 Darren_Duncan the non-hack line is commented out in my module ... if that or an equivalent can be made to run, its what is needed
23:25 pdcawley ?eval module Foo { our $bar = 'Foo' }; $foo::bar
23:25 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$foo::bar"
23:26 pdcawley ?eval module Foo { our $bar = 'Foo' }; $Foo::bar
23:26 Darren_Duncan the wider context is "my $foo = 'Bar'; require $foo~'.pm'; my $baz = $foo->abc( 'def' );"
23:27 Darren_Duncan incidentally, it would be nice if the '.pm' wasn't required
23:27 Darren_Duncan Bar declares a module and abc is a sub
23:27 Darren_Duncan the same module and sub work when $foo is replaced by a bareword
23:29 Darren_Duncan the specific line I want to work is ... $text = $template_module_name::get_text_by_key( $message.msg_key );
23:30 justatheory has joined #perl6
23:31 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:33 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
23:42 Darren_Duncan will try "module Foo { our $bar = 'Foo' }; $Foo::bar" once make is done
23:46 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; Foo::abc();
23:46 mr_ank has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:46 evalbot6 'def'
23:46 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; $z::abc();
23:46 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$z::abc"
23:47 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; ${$z}::abc();
23:47 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
23:47 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; &{$z}::abc();
23:47 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
23:48 * Darren_Duncan not sure why pdcawley's last comment appeared in bold ... an IRC bug perhaps? ...
23:50 vcv-- i assume he put the bold character there whether acidentally or intentionally
23:51 pdcawley Accidentally.
23:51 autrijus yo Darren_Duncan.
23:51 Darren_Duncan hello
23:51 autrijus fixed. committing
23:51 clkao autrijus!!
23:52 Darren_Duncan so, was that a real bug, or my not calling it correctly?
23:52 autrijus a bug.
23:52 autrijus qualified names was improperly installed.
23:52 autrijus Foo::$bar  # this do us no good
23:52 putter has joined #perl6
23:53 autrijus it should be $Foo::bar; and in some cases not even the Foo:: was even missing.
23:53 autrijus totally my thinko.
23:53 autrijus r5040.
23:53 putter ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; &::($z)::abc();
23:53 evalbot6 'def'
23:54 Darren_Duncan now making 5040
23:54 putter ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; &($z)::abc();
23:54 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "(" expecting "::"
23:54 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; $z::abc();
23:54 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$z::abc"
23:54 obra hey people
23:54 clkao hi obra
23:54 Darren_Duncan hey
23:55 obra where are folks?
23:56 putter Darren_Duncan: embedded name interpolation is paren'ed: ...("foo")...
23:56 Darren_Duncan ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; ($z)::abc();
23:56 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
23:57 autrijus yay. I'm feeling much better.
23:57 Darren_Duncan come again?
23:58 Darren_Duncan putter, can you edit the line I ran as you indicated; my edit didn't seem to work
23:58 svnbot6 r5040, autrijus++ | * qualified names was misinstalled; we now reparse the sigil
23:58 svnbot6 r5040, autrijus++ |   part and explicitly install it into envPackage again.
23:58 autrijus <- just sent allison/lwall a mail to apologise if I've misled them into thinking "pugs is 80%-90% there" in the state of carrot
23:58 putter ::foo::bar::("hee")::($haw)::zork
23:58 putter ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; $::($z)::abc();
23:58 Forth__ has joined #perl6
23:58 autrijus it's more like less than 30% ;)
23:58 putter ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; $::($z)::abc();
23:58 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$Foo::abc"
23:59 putter hmm...
23:59 obra autrijus: are poeple hacking somewhere?
23:59 putter oh,
23:59 putter ?eval module Foo { sub abc { return 'def' } }; my $z = 'Foo'; &::($z)::abc();
23:59 evalbot6 'def'
23:59 autrijus obra: no, I'm in my room working on slides. ingy I think is scheduling a kwiki hackathon somewhere
23:59 obra autrijus: what percentage of perl6 syntax do you think pugs parses?
23:59 Darren_Duncan okay, will try that
23:59 autrijus I have done three slides!
23:59 obra autrijus: ah.
23:59 obra irc--
23:59 autrijus obra: "parses into noop" counts?

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