Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-06-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 stevan_ I think making roles work in an easily predictable way is extrememly important to their success
00:00 stevan_ since they are just another level of class decompostion I dont expect anyone but the OO hackers to use them
00:00 stevan_ but they should still be accessible
00:01 stevan_ so I really want to iron out all the edge cases if we can
00:01 stevan_ ok back to converstation
00:01 stevan_ breadth first is basically what you get when you flatten them
00:02 stevan_ except there is no overlap
00:02 stevan_ it is important in role composition that it is not order dependent
00:03 stevan_ which is trivial is you flatten
00:03 stevan_ because instead of shadowing (like in depth first traversal) conflict are just illegal
00:03 stevan_ so order doesnt matter
00:05 mugwump but it did matter at some point, when the roles themselves were combined
00:05 stevan_ nope
00:05 stevan_ it doesnt matter
00:05 stevan_ if they conflict, ... BOOM, .... error
00:05 mugwump ok
00:05 stevan_ so order is irrelecvant
00:06 mugwump so the resolution process basically consists of disallowing the cases where it does matter.  fine by me, so long as I can still MMD in methods etc :)
00:06 stevan_ yes
00:07 stevan_ although MMD is a whole other topic :)
00:07 stevan_ but thats not my dept.
00:07 stevan_ 7 floors up and to the right, ask for autrijus, he is how you need to talk too :)
00:08 mugwump sure.  of course you can simplify MMD in concept by viewing the entire signature as a part of the method "name"
00:08 mugwump but that's not important right now
00:09 stevan_ yes, but thats just C++ style, and its not as cool
00:09 stevan_ we need type dispatched
00:09 stevan_ Yuval (nothingmuch) has this whole idea of first class signatures which is really cool
00:09 stevan_ but yes, not important right now
00:11 mugwump ok, so we've got these Roles which are simply modelled as a collection of functions, including accessors for "private" attributes which are specially named so they can't conflict or even be accessed between roles etc
00:11 stevan_ uhm
00:12 stevan_ thats adding restrictions to the roles though
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00:12 stevan_ according to @Larry, there is no such restriction
00:12 stevan_ (for the record I agree with you, but its not my language)
00:12 mugwump :)
00:13 mugwump but what restriction does Larry speak of?
00:13 stevan_ LOL
00:13 stevan_ none
00:13 stevan_ thats the problem :)
00:15 mugwump Unless the difference is, that role methods are actually considered a part of the class they are composed into, and so can see each other's private attributes and methods
00:15 stevan_ yu[
00:15 stevan_ yup
00:15 stevan_ thats the idea
00:16 stevan_ Roles are flattened in , and tossed out
00:16 stevan_ think of the Role as a cellophane wrapper
00:16 stevan_ you open it, put the contents in your class
00:16 stevan_ and toss the wrapper out
00:17 stevan_ maybe hold onto the instructions (meta-data) to handle things like does(), but thats all
00:17 stevan_ this is how the current perl5 prototype works (without the state part
00:17 clkao mugwump: oh, what's up with the store-password thing in svn::mirror?
00:19 mugwump clkao: well, I think the thing missing is the connection between the svn config object and the auth baton
00:19 mugwump but these objects are pretty much opaque and I couldn't find the docs when I was looking
00:20 * mugwump ==> #svk
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00:25 * stevan_ wanders off for some foo
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00:31 * mugwump feeds stevan_ some foo at the bar
00:36 Khisanth what exactly is a parrot language?
00:37 mugwump PIR?
00:37 mugwump PASM?
00:37 Khisanth ah those
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01:00 stevan_ ahhh the smell of schwarma
01:01 stevan_ poor Luke, this room is going to stink for a while ;)
01:02 mugwump ok stevan_, I see now why there is a state problem.
01:03 stevan_ mugwump: its all about the flattening
01:03 stevan_ without it, you are correct, its not an issue
01:03 stevan_ but with it, its bad
01:03 stevan_ mmm, the hummus is good too
01:04 stevan_ Toronto has really great food I have to say
01:04 mugwump So, there are two differences between Roles and Classes.  Attribute accessing and method invocation of roles is considered in the scope of the class which it is attached to
01:04 mugwump (and roles are not instantiated)
01:04 stevan_ yes
01:05 stevan_ think of the {} braces on the class as a closure
01:05 stevan_ which is evaluated at compile time and results in the metamodel being constructed
01:07 stevan_ which can potentially have some really interesting effects if you can access the metaclass in some way
01:08 stevan_ class MyClass { for ('method1', 'method2') -> $label { $?CLASS.meta.add_method($label => sub { print $label } } }
01:08 stevan_ stuff like that could (theoretically) be possible
01:08 mugwump it's like Roles are non-composable Classes that have a parametric *scope*
01:08 stevan_ yes
01:08 stevan_ and Roles can be parameterized too
01:09 stevan_ role Something [ .... T ] { has T $.foo } or something like that, I forget the syntax right now
01:10 mugwump The Set or Tree classes are the ones that would need this and exist as working examples I guess
01:11 stevan_ yes actually it would allow for type checking of the nodes of the tree
01:11 mugwump So, the scope is basically the same thing as the "local" dispatch table (local being the composed dispatch table for a class)
01:12 stevan_ roughly yes
01:12 mugwump for now I'm putting the ::Type object, and the "local" dispatch table into the same little black box
01:12 stevan_ I am not sure about inner classes and such
01:12 mugwump so being typable means that you get a scope
01:12 stevan_ mugwump: yes thats pretty safe I think
01:13 mugwump So, still it is the ::Type object that this "magic" is happening, all that's changed is that we're now using it for the Class' methods' scope
01:14 mugwump and as the Role is not typable, their methods' scope must be attached to a ::Type
01:14 mugwump but you don't need to throw them away in the MetaModel, especially given you still need to answer .does
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01:15 stevan_ currently I gather all the info I need to implement does before I toss it
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01:16 QtPlatypus ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { .subat()}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub;
01:16 evalbot6 \sub {...}
01:16 QtPlatypus That wasn't what I expected.
01:17 QtPlatypus ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { .subat()}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub.();
01:17 evalbot6 2
01:17 QtPlatypus ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { .subat()()}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub;
01:17 evalbot6 2
01:18 QtPlatypus ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { .subat}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub;
01:18 evalbot6 \sub {...}
01:18 QtPlatypus ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { .subat}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub.perl
01:18 evalbot6 '\\sub {...}'
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01:19 QtPlatypus Anyone care to explain why it works that way?
01:20 stevan_ QtPlatypus: no :)
01:20 stevan_ I think the first one "method retsub () { .subat()}" is probably using the accessor
01:21 stevan_ and so it this one (maybe) "method retsub () { .subat()}"
01:21 stevan_ this is ugly, but it works "method retsub () { .subat()()"
01:21 stevan_ ?eval class Foo { has &.subat; method retsub () { &.subat()}};my $foo= Foo.new(subat => {1 + 1});$foo.retsub;
01:21 evalbot6 2
01:21 QtPlatypus That makes sence.  How would I use the attribute directly?
01:21 stevan_ like that
01:21 QtPlatypus Arh
01:22 QtPlatypus Ok things make sence.
01:24 Odin-LAP sense, actually. :p
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03:07 svnbot6 r5083, mugwump++ | Various updates to the pure Perl 6 MetaModel (non-PIL version) to reflect updated interpretation of Roles and Classes
03:07 svnbot6 r5084, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : there is nothing like refactoring with +93% coverage :) ... mostly just cleanup of the Perl6::Object module, it is getting pretty slimmed down now
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03:10 mugwump stevan: ping
03:11 stevan mugwump: pong
03:11 stevan I see your update
03:11 mugwump excellent.  did it make any sense?
03:11 stevan havent looked yet
03:11 mugwump ok
03:12 stevan I am doing so right now
03:12 mugwump in particular is the Method.pm
03:12 stevan ok
03:12 mugwump At runtime, a method has *two* types
03:12 mugwump one type is the $object.ref
03:13 mugwump The other is the type that corresponds to the type the role was included into
03:14 stevan ok
03:14 mugwump the first is used for public accessors and methods, and is subject to dispatch through the Class' superclasses
03:14 mugwump the second is used for private accessors and methods
03:14 mugwump so, the first is bound "late"
03:14 mugwump the second is bound "early"
03:16 mugwump and a Class is merely a Role that very quickly has all the private parts of its methods bound
03:18 stevan interesting
03:19 stevan how would you deal with conflicts?
03:19 mugwump when would they be detected?
03:19 stevan class composition time
03:20 stevan or role inclusion time
03:20 mugwump same thing :)
03:20 stevan any time you compose the ::Type
03:20 stevan yes, basically
03:20 mugwump yes
03:21 mugwump the actual rules for the conflict resolution are irrelevant to this, of course.
03:21 stevan yes
03:21 mugwump so long as they don't leave the ::Type objects with ambiguous stuff in them
03:21 stevan but thats the hard part :)
03:22 mugwump yes, but minimal rules which exclude many multi methods which could co-exist Shouldn't Be Hard™ to implement
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04:11 svnbot6 r5085, mugwump++ | Ensure Role methods can be re-used between Classes
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04:19 svnbot6 r5086, luqui++ |  r147@Queen-of-Hearts:  luqui | 2005-06-28 21:56:55 -0400
04:19 svnbot6 r5086, luqui++ |  Added some type inferrence musings.
04:19 svnbot6 r5087, luqui++ |  r148@Queen-of-Hearts:  luqui | 2005-06-28 22:14:01 -0400
04:19 svnbot6 r5087, luqui++ |  On disjoint sets.
04:19 svnbot6 r5088, luqui++ |  r149@Queen-of-Hearts:  luqui | 2005-06-28 22:29:45 -0400
04:19 svnbot6 r5088, luqui++ |  Perhaps we need a new syntax for type variables, or we need to reassign ::.
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04:26 svnbot6 r5089, mugwump++ | Method dispatch only happens on the compiled dispatch tables, not bothering with the Meta objects
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04:43 obra seen autrijus
04:43 jabbot obra: autrijus was seen 7 hours 20 minutes 34 seconds ago
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05:47 nothingmuch evening
05:49 nothingmuch seen autrijus
05:49 jabbot nothingmuch: autrijus was seen 8 hours 26 minutes 22 seconds ago
05:49 nothingmuch he was supposed to wake up by now ;-)
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05:51 Khisanth go knock on his door?
05:51 nothingmuch i'm not staying at the hotel
05:52 nothingmuch and it's not nice to wake someone up in the middle of their beau^H^H^H^H^Hhacking sleep
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05:58 nothingmuch . o O ( why are there so many conflicts ? )
05:58 svnbot6 r5090, nothingmuch++ | array container implementation
05:58 svnbot6 r5091, nothingmuch++ | array is compilable, and tested.. still broken
05:59 svnbot6 r5092, nothingmuch++ | Sorry stevan++, here's Scalar
06:04 * Khisanth wonders if you can do ../../../../method
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06:05 nothingmuch Khisanth: .. being superclass or caller?
06:05 nothingmuch ;-)
06:06 jql Didn't &prefix:<../> get shot down?
06:06 nothingmuch uh
06:07 nothingmuch i thought it was a joke
06:07 mugwump That's a really good idea!
06:07 jql well, considering how ./ isn't a joke. :)
06:07 revdiablo I think Juerd was serious about ../ for about 12 hours
06:07 jql heh
06:07 mugwump and then?  :)
06:07 QtPlatypus I thought that it got shot down.
06:08 jql and then we wondered "how could anyone use that?"
06:08 jql well, I wondered it
06:08 revdiablo he woke up the next day and realized
06:08 jql I dunno what @Larry thought
06:08 Khisanth well if there is going to be the ugly ./method why not go along with it and have ../../method too? :)
06:09 mugwump ok that's fine for SUPER, but what about NEXT?
06:09 jql ./+method   # bring it
06:09 revdiablo .->method # ;)
06:10 nothingmuch that's why file systems need continuations
06:11 coral i like talk like that
06:11 coral nothingmuch++
06:11 * coral gets out the pom-poms
06:11 nothingmuch bah, it's 2 am
06:12 coral could http://perlfs.sourceforge.net/ be ported to pugs?
06:12 nothingmuch and I'm screwing around with PIL underlying runtime stuff
06:12 nothingmuch instead of working on my talk
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06:16 Khisanth nothingmuch: following in tradition?
06:16 svnbot6 r5093, nothingmuch++ | Testing is good for you
06:17 gaal hello. what should the prelude be compiled to with the fast-prelude scenario? pugs ast? something else? what target do we always have? what would be easy to dump partially and later inject to the environment?
06:18 gaal PIL?
06:18 revdiablo previously known as PAST
06:19 nothingmuch hola PIL
06:19 nothingmuch err, gaal
06:19 gaal that's why it was called that.
06:19 gaal it was called past in the past.
06:19 revdiablo heh
06:19 revdiablo in the past PIL was called PAST, duh.
06:20 Khisanth DR. PHIL
06:20 gaal aloha nm
06:21 nothingmuch gaal: i have a new laptop
06:21 gaal "become new"! :)
06:21 nothingmuch i actually had it before, but i forgot to tell you
06:21 nothingmuch thanks =)
06:21 gaal (not sure they speak inglezit on the chanell)
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06:23 nothingmuch uh, how did an ingy module work without YAML installed?!
06:24 nothingmuch holy crap, this computer is so fast
06:24 * nothingmuch is going to run the Regexp::Common test suite, just to see it go fast
06:24 gaal why does script/pugscc still mention 'dump.ast'? i thought that was obsoleted?
06:24 gaal ....why is pugscc still written in p5? :)
06:25 nothingmuch uh
06:26 gaal i 80% ported it once when i wanted to fix the cygwin path ickiness, but was missing some features. i imagine those are already available
06:27 gaal but well, i guess it works now and is probably faster than a p6 version...
06:29 * gaal looks for food
06:29 Khisanth hmm
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06:46 Khisanth where can I find more info on .as()? or can that bible thing tell me? :)
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07:06 nothingmuch woah, i'm 20
07:06 gaal happy birthday!
07:08 obra happy birthday, nothingmuch
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07:39 gaal ?eval sub f {say "not said"}; f(); say "said"
07:39 evalbot6 said bool::true
07:39 gaal why is "not said" not said?
07:40 QtPlatypus could be the say saftly thing
07:40 gaal ?eval sub fatal { die; die; die } fatal(); say "immortal"
07:40 evalbot6 immortal bool::true
07:41 gaal nope, same thing in one-liner.
07:41 Khisanth hmm
07:41 gaal dispatching is very b0rked!
07:41 gaal ?eval no_such(); say "alive"
07:41 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&no_such"
07:42 gaal this is very bad :)
07:43 Khisanth hmm do that enough times and I get undef
07:43 Khisanth instead of bool::true
07:43 gaal the bool::true is simply the valuation of the last say
07:44 QtPlatypus ?eval my $a=1;sub foo () {$a++}; foo(); $a
07:44 evalbot6 \1
07:44 Khisanth but why should say start returning undef all of a sudden?
07:44 gaal why should functions not be called all of a sudden? the current r is not sane.
07:45 Khisanth well that is for sure :)
07:46 * gaal svn log -v's for possible recent culprits
07:47 Khisanth ok returning doesn't seem to work at all
07:51 gaal backtracing, 5039 now
07:51 gaal make unoptimized++
07:53 gaal b0rkage == r5040
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08:18 gaal hmm, i don't understand why this breaks! evalExp circa line 309 *does* get called.
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