Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-02

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:04 * Khisanth grabs an aluminum bat and heads for autrijus' current location
00:05 justatheory has joined #perl6
00:13 Limbic_Region autrijus - I taught myself how to turn off my internal dialog.  It doesn't always work because as soon as you start to relax into sleep it jumps right back in.  Usually need a combination of turning off the dialog along with no mental activity 2 hours prior to sleep
00:14 meppl why is in the examples no  ~~ m/bla/  ?
00:14 meppl only   m:perl5/.../
00:15 nnunley has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
00:15 autrijus meppl: the rules support depends on (currently) trunk parrot (which will become 0.2.2 soon)
00:15 meppl oh, okay
00:15 autrijus but you are entirely free to commit examples/rules/
00:15 autrijus that'd be helpful
00:16 Limbic_Region speaking of which - I assume you aren't planning another release until you are back to being on the other side of the world?
00:16 autrijus I was initially planning another release, but my brain state doesn't seem to allow for it
00:17 meppl okee
00:22 clkao the perl5 stuff seems to be broken badly
00:22 clkao segfault on array.t
00:22 clkao but startup seems to be faster.. preludeis compiled now?
00:40 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ()
00:40 stevan pdcawley: the metamodel you refactored seems to be an older version
00:41 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
00:41 stevan the newest version was checked in last night (which is probably your early yesterday morning maybe)
00:42 stevan pdcawley: however, i will review the refactoring you did, and try to incorporate it
00:42 stevan pdcawley: as for "how much can I refactor", my usual answer is "as much as you like, as long as all the tests still pass" :)
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00:58 autrijus nothingm1ch: back from the walk?
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01:21 autrijus nothingm1ch is really impossible. :)
01:22 autrijus he misremembered his flight date -- it is actually taking off in less than 2 hours, instead of tomorrow this time
01:22 autrijus so he's now scrambling to pack and chase the plane.
01:22 * autrijus wonders if the plane will wait for him
01:22 obra oh shit.
01:22 autrijus indeed
01:23 obra what's the flight #?
01:23 autrijus no idea... I don't think he's in the mood of answering that
01:23 autrijus I'm glad I was double-checking my plane ticket, which seemed to prompt him doing the same
01:23 obra *nod*
01:23 autrijus (my flight, on the other hand, takes off in 11 hours)
01:23 obra (Was thinking it might make sense to see if the flight is delayed)
01:24 autrijus Malev 97
01:24 autrijus (flight number)
01:24 obra *nod*
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01:54 spinclad bonne chance et bon voyage -- i hope he's safely out the door.  customs to go through?
02:00 autrijus I think he'll do fine
02:00 autrijus he said he'll ping back at #perl6 in Budapest airport
02:01 autrijus (and commit in new html matrix code that lets us do revision diffs)
02:01 autrijus (and platforms diffs)
02:01 * spinclad *whews*
02:03 spinclad   (and other higher-dimensional functors on the code)
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04:07 nothingmuch bah
04:08 sili_ bah bah black sheep have you got any wool
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04:08 nothingmuch my flight was overbooked
04:08 nothingmuch the moral of the story is: airlines will do anything to make you happy
04:08 nothingmuch instead of a connection through budapest i have a direct flight tomorrow
04:08 nothingmuch first classx
04:09 nothingmuch and i got $665 cds
04:09 nothingmuch cdn
04:09 nothingmuch just for 'agreeing' to stay
04:09 nothingmuch i get to israel in normal people time
04:09 nothingmuch and the flight is more convenient
04:09 autrijus ...and he also got to wake me up from sleep and force me to sign his openpgp key
04:09 nothingmuch and i'm getting paid back almost the full price of the flight
04:09 nothingmuch yeah, i remembered I needed to do that
04:09 autrijus and then promptly dumped me back to sleep while he get to show off in #perl6
04:10 nothingmuch autrijus said "i can just find the fingerprint on the wiki"
04:10 nothingmuch so much for security, eh?
04:10 * autrijus mumbles something about karma and fate etc and went back to sleep
04:10 nothingmuch grr
04:10 nothingmuch now my plane will crash because of autrijus
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04:18 QtPlatypus Has someone written out the grammer for Perl6 in the form of Perl6 rules?
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04:36 nothingmuch seen chip
04:36 jabbot nothingmuch: chip was seen 4 days 12 hours 36 minutes 50 seconds ago
04:36 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("Changing server")
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04:52 obra nothingmuch++ # social engineering
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04:59 nothingmuch obra: thanks =)
04:59 * QtPlatypus is attempting to write some of pugs/examples/cookbook "I'm trying to follow the 'Perl Cookbook' but some of it doesn't make sence in Perl6, should I rephrase the requirement in the way that makes sense in perl6?
04:59 nothingmuch not that I did anything..
04:59 nothingmuch =
04:59 nothingmuch )
04:59 nothingmuch i just seemed a bit worried, so they were extra persuasive
04:59 nothingmuch and then I made sure I had a direct flight, and not the same connection
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05:28 cwest So I need to know. What is the status of Perl 6 rules via pugs?
05:31 QtPlatypus cwest: In what sence?
05:31 Khisanth cwest: I think you want #parrot on perl.org :)
05:32 cwest do I?
05:32 cwest I want to know if I can write Pelr 6 rules using pugs so I can build a parser that targets parrot via perl 6.
05:32 cwest or can I throw grammars right at parrot?
05:33 Khisanth well I don't think you will be able to use anything not yet implemented in PGE :)
05:34 cwest I was hoping for an easy answer. It sounds like you're trying to say that pugs has not implemented that.
05:35 cwest Which is cool.
05:35 cwest My javascript parser will just target perl 5 for today.
05:36 Khisanth not sure what you mean by that but you can use the rules through PGE if you also have parrot
05:36 cwest What I need is to use the source.
05:39 nothingmuch cwest: you're a javascript dude, right?
05:39 cwest I'm becomming one. :-)
05:39 nothingmuch maybe you can help me with some DOM crap?
05:39 cwest Soon I'll be one of you though.
05:39 nothingmuch =).
05:39 nothingmuch damn . key
05:39 cwest Ah, I'm not that good, but I'll give it a go.
05:40 Khisanth hmm trying to use the rules right causes a segfault :/
05:40 cwest heh
05:40 Khisanth err right now
05:40 Khisanth get_pmc_keyed() not implemented in class 'String'
05:40 cwest I was thinking that I could get my code to PIL really easy by running rules, which would also make a parser easy.
05:40 nothingmuch i need to have a <tr>...</tr>
05:41 nothingmuch which represents a single line of smoke results
05:41 nothingmuch like in http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status
05:41 QtPlatypus The big thing that isn't working is closures in rules.
05:41 nothingmuch a single line can contain multiple rows of test cells - they are in a nested table
05:41 nothingmuch anywho, upon clicking some little javascript button, the two cells on the left are rowspan=n
05:41 Khisanth QtPlatypus: "a" ~~ /<[a-z]>/ works for you?
05:42 nothingmuch and then there are n rows, with a line of cell-tables per each one
05:42 nothingmuch for some cases the "expanded" view is the default
05:42 QtPlatypus No but
05:42 QtPlatypus "a" ~~ /<[a..z]>/ does
05:43 cwest huh
05:44 cwest I do not see any expanded views.
05:44 cwest Nor do I see a way to create them. :-/
05:45 nothingmuch that's what i'm working on right now =)
05:45 cwest oh right.
05:46 Khisanth QtPlatypus: which revision?
05:46 cwest so you need to get at the dom to do this.
05:46 nothingmuch right
05:46 * QtPlatypus tried to do something by doing. /(<[a..z]>) {something($/[0])}/  but it doesn't work for me
05:46 nothingmuch and I don't even know how to generate the HTML
05:47 cwest Do you have an example of the extended entry anywhere?
05:47 nothingmuch let me try to hack something... 3 mins
05:47 QtPlatypus r5117 with 0.2.1 Parrot
05:47 cwest and do you have control of the thing that is generating this current html?
05:48 Khisanth QtPlatypus: I was trying with r5084
05:49 QtPlatypus Khisanth: Make sure you have checked out the most recent Parrot.  pug's rules are implemented via the PGE.
05:49 QtPlatypus Which comes with Parrot.
05:50 Khisanth QtPlatypus: heh see scrollback ;)
05:50 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
05:51 cwest nothingmuch: minor nit, align the text in the Test file row(s) to the top.
05:51 cwest okay, so we could do this I think.
05:52 cwest One way to do it is to also embed the table full of extended rows in the Test cases table cell.
05:52 cwest Then toggle the view of either of them with the +/- links.
05:53 nothingmuch that is, have an expanded row version, and a collapsed row version of each thing?
05:53 nothingmuch i like that, let me hack it in
05:53 cwest yes
05:53 nothingmuch btw, is there any way to group several rows?
05:53 nothingmuch reload the example
05:53 QtPlatypus Has perl6's grammer been written in perl6 grammer yet?
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05:54 cwest Now, when you hack that in you need to keep an iterator and add id='' attributes to each of the tables.
05:54 QtPlatypus Has perl6's grammer been written as a perl6 grammer yet?
05:54 nothingmuch you see in 'dummy.t', which is inconsistent, because some tests fail in one version but not in the other, there's a border around the box
05:54 cwest So for example, 'extended-006' and 'collapsed-006'
05:54 nothingmuch and also one inside the box
05:54 nothingmuch okay, makes sense
05:54 cwest right, we could do that. we just need to be creative.
05:55 cwest So you have either pass, fail, or parital states for a test run.
05:55 nothingmuch uh, that's scary ;-)
05:55 nothingmuch say again?
05:55 cwest Right.
05:55 cwest Either you have 100% pass, 100% fail or something in between.
05:56 cwest The something in between "all good" and "all bad" is what you want to set appart.
05:56 cwest er, apart.
05:56 nothingmuch oh, no, not exactly
05:56 cwest so generate a class="inconsistent" for each <tr> row that is inconsistent.
05:56 nothingmuch this is supposed to display multiple reports in the same file
05:57 nothingmuch where test files that don't agree between reports
05:57 nothingmuch that is, test case 10 of file cwd.t failed on windows
05:57 cwest Okay
05:57 nothingmuch it's a sort of diff of test reports
05:57 cwest So in what condition do you want t/dummy.t to be highlighted?
05:58 nothingmuch can I say '<tr><td rowspan=2>...</td></tr><tr>...</tr>' and because the first tr doesn't have all the required <tds> it gets displayed on the same line?
05:58 nothingmuch in the current example, one test randomly failed - the first one
05:58 nothingmuch in one version
05:58 nothingmuch but everything passed in the first version
05:58 nothingmuch of dummy.t
05:59 nothingmuch on the other hand path.t fails the same way
05:59 nothingmuch so it's consistent
05:59 nothingmuch consistent cases get folded
05:59 nothingmuch inconsistent ones are expanded
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05:59 cwest Okay, so anything with yellow on the far right is inconsistent?
05:59 nothingmuch nope =)
05:59 nothingmuch look at paths.t
06:00 nothingmuch it's consistent
06:00 cwest okay (sorry)
06:00 cwest okay, because the failures line up?
06:00 nothingmuch right
06:00 cwest Bingo
06:00 cwest alright.
06:00 cwest When generating a row for a test file, do you know this state ahead of time?
06:01 nothingmuch yes
06:02 cwest excellent, then you can use that to set a class='inconsistent' attribute on the table row containing your test file information.
06:02 nothingmuch yup
06:02 nothingmuch my problem is mainly with structure
06:03 nothingmuch oh wait, I have an idea on how to simplify
06:03 cwest okay, in that case I would suggest that in the table sell after the OK/FAILED/SKIPPED cell, just put both tables.
06:03 cwest Both the expanded and collapsed tables.
06:03 cwest One right after the other.
06:04 nothingmuch one table is hidden, and 'toggle' just swaps table rows with the same index?
06:04 cwest yes exactly
06:04 cwest http://openjsan.org/js/DOM/Display.js -- this class will get your javascript most of the way there.
06:05 cwest It may be a little heavy but it's well encapsulated.
06:05 nothingmuch goody
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06:05 cwest also, uncomment the first commented line. if you aren't using my JSAN library that's a bug.
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06:06 cwest (oops)
06:06 joepurl has quit IRC (Client Quit)
06:07 nothingmuch okies
06:07 cwest So if you go one further and use <noscript> tags to give headings to each table, this will make your testing system look really sexy to non-js browsers.
06:07 cwest They'll get both outputs but it'll be very understandable.
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06:09 cwest But honestly, who uses that old crap anymore?
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06:10 * QtPlatypus waves his hand.
06:10 joepurl has joined #perl6
06:11 * QtPlatypus uses lynx rather then javascript.
06:11 * QtPlatypus uses lynx rather then a javascript enabled browser.
06:12 cwest no, you're just playing devil's advocate. :-)
06:12 cwest Anyway, it'll work is the poing (and links has js support)
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06:13 cwest s/poing/point/
06:14 * QtPlatypus uses it because he mostly hits text heavy sites and I can run it under screen.
06:14 QtPlatypus I hate being forced to use a graphical browser.
06:15 cwest that's okay, I hate testing javascript in a browser
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06:21 nothingmuch hmm.....
06:21 nothingmuch reload... some progress
06:24 * cwest & # on sec
06:25 cwest what would you put in some_text?
06:26 nothingmuch something that distinguishes the result sets
06:26 nothingmuch like 'Windows, perl version', or  whatever
06:26 cwest okay
06:27 nothingmuch now I'm workiong on omitting the expanded view when there's nothing to show
06:28 * cwest is hacking the js for you
06:29 nothingmuch ooh lah lah
06:30 nothingmuch cwest: do you use darcs?
06:30 cwest I've never done.
06:31 cwest but why not start.
06:31 nothingmuch =)
06:31 nothingmuch go fetch a binary from http://darcs.net
06:31 nothingmuch then do 'darcs get http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-Model'
06:31 nothingmuch and 'darcs get http://nothingmuch.wooblin​g.org/Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix'
06:32 Khisanth hmm
06:32 nothingmuch (you can browse these URLs without darcs)
06:32 cwest okay
06:32 Khisanth QtPlatypus: still segfaults with 5137
06:35 QtPlatypus Khisanth: Odd.  Latest parrot check out?
06:35 nothingmuch cwest: to get example.html working I run: perl -Ilib -I ../Test-TAP-Model/lib  example.pl && open example.html
06:36 Khisanth yes
06:36 nothingmuch example.pl will run the test suite foor Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix, once normally, and once with $ENV{TEST_FAIL_RANDOMLY}
06:36 nothingmuch which causes t/dummy.t to spew out failures
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06:37 nothingmuch whenever the class of the rows is 'normal' it should be collapsed by default
06:37 nothingmuch and whenever it's 'diff' it should be expanded by default
06:38 QtPlatypus Khisanth: Thats odd.  Did you embed parrot or run it indepentely?  Also how much memory do you have?  I've noticed that with some of my more complex rules PGE's memory usage explodes.
06:39 nothingmuch cwest: i'm tired, and you should also be
06:39 nothingmuch want to continue tomorrow?
06:39 nothingmuch stevan: darcs pull for initial consolidated view
06:39 Khisanth <[a-z]> is complex? :)
06:40 Khisanth QtPlatypus: hmm embeded
06:41 dmo has quit IRC ()
06:41 QtPlatypus Khisanth: It isn't.  Have you tried <[a..z]> ?
06:41 Khisanth also segfaults
06:41 Khisanth Rev. 8489 of parrot
06:41 cwest http://caseywest.com/code/tap.html
06:41 joepurl has joined #perl6
06:41 cwest That shows the toggles (I just grabbed your source)
06:41 cwest only working on dummy.t
06:42 nothingmuch cwest++; # you rock!
06:42 QtPlatypus Odd.
06:42 nothingmuch i'll integrate and generalize tomorrow before my flight
06:42 nothingmuch stevan: check out http://caseywest.com/code/tap.html and http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
06:43 cwest nothingmuch: If you look at the inline <script> you can see that I defaulted to the collapsed but I'm sure you can see that the templates could default based on the logic the generator knows.
06:44 * cwest is working out the darcs thing now
06:44 gaal morning!
06:45 cwest *nod*
06:46 cwest [cwest@espresso code]$ darcs get http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-Model
06:46 cwest dyld: Library not loaded: ../GMP.framework/Versions/A/GMP
06:46 cwest  Referenced from: /usr/local/bin/darcs
06:46 cwest  Reason: image not found
06:46 cwest Trace/BPT trap
06:46 cwest this would happen to me
06:48 * cwest also need ghc
06:48 cwest I'm behind I guess. :-)
06:56 nothingmuch morning gaal
06:56 nothingmuch cwest: your diagnosis that you need a ghc is correct
06:56 nothingmuch cwest: as for defaultness - yup
06:59 gaal nm: cool story about the flight, i hope you're not too flustered though!
07:00 * cwest installs ghc package
07:00 QtPlatypus ?eval my Int $anint = +"Not a number, not even NaN";$anint
07:00 evalbot6 \0.0
07:02 cwest Copying patch 4 of 49...
07:02 cwest darcs failed:  Failed to download URL http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/Test-TAP-HTM​LMatrix/_darcs/patches/20050501165716-e79bd-​d85b32f11f6bd16d1c4b13045f2aaa7ee793aa9f.gz
07:02 cwest libcurl: HTTP error (404?)
07:02 cwest ?
07:02 kakos has quit IRC ("This machine just fell asleep")
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07:03 nothingmuch uh, odd
07:03 nothingmuch i'll zap that repo and repush
07:03 cwest yeah, after four, consistently.
07:03 cwest okay
07:04 nothingmuch try now
07:04 nothingmuch ok, we're getting there... reload example.
07:05 nothingmuch (no js yet, but we have IDs)
07:05 cwest cool.
07:05 cwest Once I get this stuff I think it'll be a quicky.
07:06 cwest Plus this is giving me time to read the darcs manual. ;-)
07:06 cwest okay, got it all.
07:06 nothingmuch heh =)
07:08 * cwest is installing deps
07:08 nothingmuch hmm... new direction:
07:08 nothingmuch walk the table
07:08 nothingmuch no multiple 'var toggle00x'
07:08 nothingmuch just set it
07:08 nothingmuch and then supply two functions.
07:08 nothingmuch makes sense?
07:09 cwest yeah. walk each child, getAttribute('id') for the table rows, getAttribute('class').split(/\s+/) for finding the diff class.
07:09 cwest I think it's pretty doable.
07:10 nothingmuch okay
07:10 cwest Are you doing this or just giving me suggestions?
07:10 nothingmuch i'm googling for this stuff
07:10 nothingmuch i'll have a go
07:10 cwest ah, of course.
07:10 cwest cool
07:10 nothingmuch if i don't have something in 10 minutes I'll delegate =)_
07:10 cwest mkay
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07:13 nothingmuch how do i compare strings in JS?
07:14 cwest ==
07:15 gaal nm, your monad-fu requested at http://sial.org/pbot/11479
07:15 cwest hrm, I can't get my local copy to get the [+]/[-] stuff output, even though I know that I can see it in template.html
07:17 nothingmuch gaal: okay, one sec
07:17 nothingmuch hmm..... maybe i didn't check in enough changes
07:17 gaal there's another error about no instance for (Functor  TVar)
07:18 nothingmuch cwest: give me 2-3 mins, and i'll slap everything together, and recommit
07:18 cwest cool
07:19 nothingmuch uh, my Run.hs is not 546 lines long...
07:19 nothingmuch what's the enclosing function's type signature?
07:19 nothingmuch i also can't find ^glob in there
07:19 gaal true. this code is from the output of pugs -CPugs src/perl6/Prelude.pm, which i had more or less slapped there
07:19 nothingmuch ah
07:20 nothingmuch so can you show me the full signature of glob?
07:20 gaal hmmm, no :) it isn't generated
07:20 nothingmuch eep
07:20 gaal but i'll see if i can figure it out
07:21 gaal ooooofff, pugscc itself doesn't work on win32, what a pain in the ass
07:21 cwest (I like darcs now, btw :-)
07:22 nothingmuch cwest: it's very nice =)
07:22 nothingmuch the UI is wonderful
07:22 nothingmuch it's like SVK, but for dumdums
07:22 nothingmuch gaal: eep... i think this is too much for me... i can't infer all that myself
07:23 nothingmuch autrijus's taxi leaves in 3 hours
07:23 nothingmuch maybe he can help
07:23 cwest if course this now means I'm using darcs, svn, and cvs all at the same time. I have an editor problem like that too, using emacs, vim, and textwrangler all at various times.
07:23 gaal he looks like he can use some rest :)
07:24 gaal but if you can tell him to take a look at it, well, cool
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07:27 nothingmuch cwest: why are there numerous toggle00x objects?
07:27 flw has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
07:27 nothingmuch gaal: he is during deep power cycling
07:27 nothingmuch (asleep right now)
07:28 cwest nothingmuch: each one represents a group of things to be toggled.
07:28 gaal figured
07:28 nothingmuch i think he slept around 20+ hours since he left the hotel
07:28 cwest nothingmuch: However that was the KISS model.
07:28 nothingmuch cwest: oh
07:28 nothingmuch i need to reread your code
07:28 cwest It may not /need/ to be improved but it can be.
07:28 cwest Yeah, it's just the dummy.t records
07:29 nothingmuch does .split(regex) return a list/
07:29 cwest I added <tbody> tags for each *group* (1 collapsed + 1 expanded), and the <script> tags to set up the DOM.Display objects.
07:29 cwest yes it does.
07:29 nothingmuch yeah, i used tbody
07:29 nothingmuch var elems = id.split('_')
07:30 nothingmuch if (elems[0] == 'collapsed')
07:30 nothingmuch ?
07:30 cwest yes
07:30 cwest exactly
07:31 nothingmuch how do i concat a string?
07:31 nothingmuch +?
07:31 sili_ yes
07:31 cwest yes
07:32 cwest and if you're going there, .join() *returns* an object with two strings joined on a delimiter.
07:34 nothingmuch okay
07:34 nothingmuch can i query a toggle for whether an element is hidden or shown?
07:34 dmo has quit IRC ()
07:35 nothingmuch i guess I could write toggle() function that just swaps the bits
07:36 cwest no
07:36 cwest add this to the class def
07:36 cwest    isShown: function (id) {
07:36 cwest        var elem = document.getElementById(id);
07:36 cwest        if (elem.style.display == "none") return false;
07:36 cwest        return true;
07:36 cwest    }
07:36 cwest (sorry for not using nopaste)
07:37 nothingmuch i think i have a simpler solution
07:37 cwest okay
07:37 nothingmuch how do i enumerate a register?
07:37 cwest I did conceed that DOM.Display could be overkill here. ;-)
07:37 nothingmuch no, it's pretty convenient
07:37 cwest for (var i in register.properties)
07:38 cwest there is an example in the definition of showOnlyElement
07:38 cwest also
07:40 nothingmuch hmm
07:40 nothingmuch debug help
07:40 nothingmuch reload example.html
07:40 spinclad btw i usually have js turned off in my browser (mozilla 1.7.8), which tends to die fairly quickly if i have it on.
07:41 nothingmuch spinclad: the js is quite optional
07:41 nothingmuch all the data is there otherwise
07:41 nothingmuch i'll add an option to make it prerendered, so that there's no JS at all
07:41 nothingmuch but then you can't have access to all the data, but it does look pretty
07:41 spinclad sure, i heard.  just another data point for an old question.
07:41 cwest s/.properties// in your for loop.
07:42 cwest also, a comma after the function declaration for registerElement.
07:42 cwest That might do it.
07:42 cwest And I'm stealing that for myself. ;-)
07:44 spinclad and thanks
07:44 nothingmuch toggleDisp() is not being called... I don't get any alert.... odd.
07:44 cwest you have a parser error
07:44 cwest at least in the version on nm.woo...
07:45 nothingmuch i'll upload the revised one
07:45 nothingmuch how do I see parse errors in browser foo?
07:45 nothingmuch nevermind
07:48 cwest okay
07:48 cwest I'm fixing a bunch of stuff.
07:48 nothingmuch getElemById => what is the real method name?
07:48 cwest you may want to diff/patch off of http://caseywest.com/code/exmaple.html
07:48 cwest getElementsById
07:48 nothingmuch oh, element
07:48 cwest class is a reserved word.
07:49 nothingmuch yeah, i got that far =)
07:49 cwest You were writing perl 6 or java or something. ;-)
07:49 cwest var i = 0; instead of int i = 0;
07:49 cwest or C
07:49 nothingmuch C i guess
07:49 nothingmuch 404
07:49 cwest so you need ot run this stuff inside of an onload function.
07:50 cwest sorry, here: http://caseywest.com/code/tap.html
07:50 nothingmuch i do that
07:50 nothingmuch reload
07:51 nothingmuch wait, not yet
07:51 nothingmuch okay
07:51 cwest heh, okay
07:51 nothingmuch getChildNodes is appearantly bull
07:51 nothingmuch i wonder where I googled that off
07:52 cwest I'm looking this up
07:52 cwest childNodes
07:52 cwest which is a list
07:52 cwest so you can just copy it
07:53 cwest var bodies = matrix.getChildNodes;
07:53 nothingmuch yep
07:53 cwest er, crap
07:53 cwest matrix.childNodes;
07:53 nothingmuch and then bodies.length and bodies[i]
07:53 nothingmuch ?
07:53 cwest yes
07:53 nothingmuch "matrix.childNodes is not a function"
07:54 cwest no, do not use ()
07:54 nothingmuch ah
07:54 nothingmuch C++
07:54 nothingmuch =)
07:54 cwest :-)
07:54 cwest "Once you know one, you know them all..." -- bull
07:54 nothingmuch too many languages == confusion
07:54 nothingmuch once you know em all they all become one
07:54 nothingmuch and then you know a part of each
07:54 cwest yep
07:55 nothingmuch getAttribute is now not a function... does it have a nicer name?
07:55 nothingmuch var elm_cls = body.getAttribute('class');
07:55 sili_ ya like i know the php and the other day i tried to s/re_for_line_at_end_of_string//
07:56 cwest I'm told there is an .attributes method
07:56 cwest or accessor
07:56 cwest perhaps .attributes[id]
07:56 nothingmuch eek
07:56 cwest s/id/class/
07:56 nothingmuch oh wait, that's not magic
07:56 nothingmuch that's an associative array
07:56 nothingmuch i forgot that [] is really an operator
07:57 nothingmuch body.attributes has no properties
07:57 nothingmuch maybe body is a reserved word too?
07:57 cwest attributes["class"].nodeValue.split(/_/)
07:57 cwest give that a go
07:57 nothingmuch as a method of body?
07:58 cwest yes
07:58 nothingmuch same
07:59 cwest bah
07:59 cwest so what happens if you alert(body.attributes.length); as a first debug step?
08:00 cwest oh, and I think you want var body = bodies[i];
08:00 nothingmuch i did say that
08:01 nothingmuch which makes it very odd
08:01 cwest and bodies.length in the for condition
08:01 cwest I think you weren't reading dom docs but perhaps actually IE docs.
08:02 nothingmuch oh
08:02 nothingmuch =)
08:03 cwest getId probably should not work either.
08:05 nothingmuch right
08:05 nothingmuch body.className works
08:07 cwest cool
08:09 cwest so getAttribute() should totally work onw
08:09 cwest s/onw/now
08:11 nothingmuch how do i check for definedness?
08:11 cwest == undefined
08:11 cwest != undefined
08:11 cwest but sadly some things can be null
08:11 cwest you may want to check first
08:12 cwest I have confirmed getAttribute('id') will work.
08:12 cwest So does .id
08:12 cwest body.id
08:13 nothingmuch i'm using body.id
08:13 cwest rock
08:13 cwest must be close
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08:16 nothingmuch hmm
08:17 cwest ?
08:17 nothingmuch reload
08:17 nothingmuch i don't know why this isn't working now
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08:19 cwest body.id is either undfined or empty
08:19 nothingmuch eek
08:19 nothingmuch that's weird, i had an alert there, and it usually displayed OK
08:19 cwest or collapsed_N
08:20 nothingmuch i think you're right
08:20 cwest you need to skip certain node types
08:20 nothingmuch if (split_id[0] == 'expanded') {
08:20 nothingmuch alert('got a body with id ' + elm_id);
08:20 nothingmuch that alerts properly
08:20 cwest so body.nodeType == 1; // this is an element
08:21 cwest you are getting other types like text
08:21 nothingmuch oh
08:21 cwest if (body.id && body.nodeType == 1) {
08:22 nothingmuch yup
08:22 nothingmuch doesn't work yet
08:22 jiing has joined #perl6
08:22 cwest but I am not getting the toggle either
08:23 nothingmuch oh! i think i got it
08:24 cwest oh
08:24 nothingmuch yes1
08:24 cwest hideElement(body.id)
08:24 nothingmuch right
08:24 cwest same for the showOnly one, but I'm sure you got htat
08:24 nothingmuch now to see why toggleOnly
08:25 nothingmuch doesn't work
08:25 cwest you need
08:25 cwest        var elem = document.getElementById(id);
08:25 cwest at the top of toggleHidden
08:25 nothingmuch oh, because registry contains ids
08:26 cwest and the function should accept (id)
08:26 cwest (still doesn't fix links)
08:26 cwest but I got the initial collapsing working
08:27 nothingmuch wait, why does the function need to accept (id)?
08:27 cwest oh, no, you're right
08:28 cwest            var elem = document.getElementById(i);
08:28 cwest inside the for loop
08:28 nothingmuch the register iteration thing is not working
08:28 nothingmuch for (var id in this.register) {
08:28 nothingmuch alert('i got ' + id + ' from the regiser');
08:28 nothingmuch no alerts when clicking
08:28 nothingmuch or invoking manually using javascript: scheme
08:29 cwest bah
08:29 nothingmuch what is the {} structure called?
08:29 cwest showOnlyElement works, I know that for sure.
08:29 cwest That's an object.
08:29 nothingmuch cute =)
08:29 nothingmuch i'm assuming a copy of the root object?
08:30 gaal nothingmuch, is autrijus up?
08:30 cwest if by that you mean new Object() then yes
08:30 nothingmuch gaal: nope.... try again in 1 hour
08:30 cwest I could have said: register: new Object(),
08:30 nothingmuch okay
08:30 nothingmuch how is this.register an associative array? [] on object does arbitrary property access?
08:31 gaal thanks. i got past the compilation problems, but now i have env problems. they're essentially Reader questions, maybe you can help!
08:31 cwest nothingmuch: yes it does
08:31 gaal i managed to inline the precompiled prelude (manually, so far), and have it actually run when pugs loads
08:31 gaal problem is (i think) it gets its own env
08:31 nothingmuch hmm... i wonder why it's not actually doing anything
08:31 nothingmuch gaal: i'll let him know
08:32 nothingmuch if i am not 100% zonked when he wakes me up
08:32 gaal so i need to do some "local" magickery for the results of the evaluation to actually stick
08:32 nothingmuch right
08:33 gaal but i'm not in the Eval monad
08:33 gaal so i don't know how to do that.
08:33 nothingmuch err, where are you?
08:33 gaal do you know prepareEnv? Run.hs
08:33 nothingmuch nopd
08:33 nothingmuch nope
08:34 nothingmuch i'm afraid I'm not in a state of mind where i'm useful though
08:34 cwest nothingmuch: good question. can you alert(this.register) ?
08:34 nothingmuch it's very late
08:34 gaal hmm, that's hte nice function that sets up the standard symbols and stuff, then calls initPrelude
08:34 gaal never moose, i'll keep hacking myself
08:34 nothingmuch hmm... nothing
08:35 cwest ds
08:35 nothingmuch oh, i'm not calling it right
08:35 cwest var toggle = toggles[idx] = new DOM.Display();
08:35 cwest Does that work?
08:35 nothingmuch toggles[elem].toggleHidden();
08:35 cwest oh, yes
08:35 cwest otherwise you get code back :-)
08:36 cwest Thyat's it!
08:36 nothingmuch yep =)
08:36 nothingmuch () is the function app op?
08:36 cwest yep
08:37 cwest It's gonna be great trying to emulate that when calling the DBI from JS. ;-)
08:38 nothingmuch woot! it works!
08:38 nothingmuch reload
08:39 gaal cwest++ nothingmuch++
08:39 cwest rock
08:40 cwest So, at least in my browser, if you s/... expanded view:/Detail/ you don't get the funky resize stuff.
08:40 nothingmuch fixed =)
08:41 cwest cool
08:41 cwest I like it
08:41 cwest nothingmuch++
08:41 nothingmuch cwest++
08:41 cwest (Not it's 4:45am, I'm going to get some sleep)
08:41 nothingmuch eek
08:42 spinclad nothingmuch++ cwest++
08:42 nothingmuch safari invents some borders that firefox doesn't
08:42 nothingmuch spinclad: i promise you some javascript-free stuff tomorrow
08:42 nothingmuch but it really is 4:45am, and I also need sleep
08:42 cwest This will look nice even without javascript.
08:42 spinclad no hurry
08:43 gaal i hope autrijus pops by before he leaves
08:43 nothingmuch cwest: email?
08:43 nothingmuch cwest: without js it's just the same, but no [+] and [-]
08:43 cwest [email@hidden.address]
08:43 gaal it *almost* works! code is evalled but apparently symbols are not installed
08:44 gaal or maybe they're installed in the wrong place
08:44 gaal more likely.
08:44 nothingmuch is it ok to mention the email in module docs?
08:44 cwest yeah, no worries
08:44 nothingmuch btw, do you have pugs committership?
08:44 cwest I have to commit something first right? Then not yet.
08:45 cwest I'm on my way since I'm got this crazy idea of making parrot the new js engine for mozilla. ;-)
08:45 nothingmuch darcs pull
08:45 * cwest does so
08:46 nothingmuch cwest: check mail
08:46 nothingmuch (you are now a comitter)
08:46 nothingmuch anyway, sleep
08:46 cwest cool
08:47 nothingmuch release TTH tomorrow
08:47 cwest you too
08:47 nothingmuch oh wait, sorry
08:47 nothingmuch darcs pull *now*
08:47 cwest y
08:47 nothingmuch (i thought I did push -a but I was wrong)
08:48 cwest heh, I was wondering
08:48 cwest sleepy sleepy :-)
08:48 nothingmuch thanks so much, cwest
08:48 nothingmuch you've been very very useful
08:48 cwest np, and thanks
08:49 * cwest &
08:51 gaal autrijus, two items on the agenda for getting precompiled Prelude in (i'm typingaheading):
08:52 gaal 1. pugsy: things are getting run, but apparently not in the correct env
08:53 gaal 2. (haskell/makey): for now i'm assuming it's okay to modify Run.hs on the fly. very very hacky, but avoiding that would require (i think) boot files, which we can clean up after the release.
08:54 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "current initPreludePC" (7 lines, 346B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11485
08:57 * gaal discovers OPTIONS_GHC -cpp and realizes #2 can be made much better.
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09:46 autrijus gaal: I got the backlog with me.
09:46 gaal yay! i've hacked a gen_prelude.pl that mangles the -CPugs output, testing it now
09:46 autrijus ok. my cab leaves in 10 minutes
09:47 autrijus please check in whatever you have, since toronto airport has no wireless
09:47 autrijus I'll check back in... 20 hours :)
09:47 gaal i will, though i'm wary of breaking tests (i will be removing the old prelude)
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09:48 gaal thing that bugs me is that i bet it's just some "local" one-liner fix :(
09:48 autrijus you can alternatively nopaste the patch
09:48 autrijus or commit and then revert again
09:48 autrijus both worksforme
09:48 gaal heh, cool. okay
09:49 gaal have a great trip!
09:49 autrijus thanks!
09:50 autrijus ...so, are you committing or nopasting? :)
09:50 gaal oh! now?
09:50 gaal sorry :))
09:50 gaal sec
09:52 gaal errr, there's some junk in this commit (pugscc changes are all bogus) but it's already transmitted
09:52 gaal committed as r5138; i'll revert it now
09:52 autrijus good then. have fun
09:52 autrijus I got r5138
09:52 autrijus &
09:52 gaal thanks, you too
09:53 autrijus :)
09:53 masak have a good trip, autrijus
09:56 gaal wtf? svn merge -r5138:5137 http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
09:56 svnbot6 r5138, gaal++ | precompiled Prelude (WIP)
09:56 gaal svn: Use --force to override this restriction
09:56 gaal svn: 'pugs' is not under version control
09:56 gaal what's that mean?
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11:47 QtPlatypus ?eval grammer Foo { rule bar {bar}}; "bar" ~~ /<Foo::bar>/
11:47 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&grammer"
11:48 gaal grammat
11:48 gaal r
11:48 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar Foo { rule bar {bar}}; "bar" ~~ /<Foo::bar>/
11:48 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
11:48 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar Foo { rule bar {bar}}; "bar" ~~ /<Foo:bar>/
11:48 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
11:48 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar Foo { rule bar {bar}}; "bar" ~~ /bar/
11:49 gaal plus, i probably broke pugs with my last commit - but for some reason it can't be reverted. please use 5137
11:49 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
11:49 * QtPlatypus nods to gaal
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11:52 * QtPlatypus tries it in an earler pugs.  "How does one say 'rule from grammar foo'"
11:52 gaal i would guess <foo::rule> ?
11:53 * QtPlatypus nods "Doesn't seem to be implemented yet"
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12:05 QtPlatypus The cookbook is for stuff that currently works in pugs, for stuff that works in perl6?
12:06 QtPlatypus (That commer is infact an "or")
12:06 gaal hmm, that's a good intersection, though for things that are more or less final p6 but not implemented too i'd say go ahead and include 'em but be nice and mark them that way.
12:08 gaal make unoptimized is so fun! i keep being reminded.
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12:55 masak make unoptimized is really fast! what's the catch?
12:55 svnbot6 r5139, gaal++ | makefile side of precompiled prelude, plus some other scaffolding work (still WIP)
12:55 gaal runtime hit. big one.
12:56 gaal oh! darn it, my code is correct! it's pugs -CPugs that's broken
12:56 gaal this is both good and bad news :)
12:56 QtPlatypus Handy hint site:http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/ in google allows you to search the Apocalypse's Exegesis and Synoposises.
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13:02 * QtPlatypus looks confused. "I was told that given was as expression so you couldn't do something like..."
13:02 gaal ?
13:03 QtPlatypus $result = given $digit {when "T" { 10 };when "E" { 11 };default  { $digit }}
13:03 gaal oh, i think this oughta work but isn't in pugs yet.
13:03 QtPlatypus But its In A04 as being possable.
13:03 QtPlatypus Arh!
13:03 gaal i wanted it in some code i wrote already.
13:04 QtPlatypus Me too.
13:05 gaal in only associatively related moose, did you know that ? : can work on the LHS of an assignment in perl 5? lots of fun.
13:05 QtPlatypus when doesn't act like c's switch.  Its more like pascal's case.
13:05 QtPlatypus Right?
13:05 * QtPlatypus nods to gaal.
13:05 gaal i don't remember pascal
13:06 gaal it doesn't fallthrough, if that's what you mean
13:06 QtPlatypus Thats what I mean.
13:06 gaal yeah, something Java got wrong and P6 right.
13:13 QtPlatypus If I wished to get commit something how would i go about getting a commit bit and what are the documents for the proccess?
13:13 gaal any metacommitters about?
13:14 gaal Qt: you just have to send your email to one of the metacommitters; none seem to be around atm but they'll happily sign you up.
13:14 * QtPlatypus nods.
13:15 gaal then you just svn ci your stuff and it'll prompt you for authenticaltion, which you will be able to provide by the welcome email you will have gotten by that stage.
13:15 * QtPlatypus nods.
13:16 gaal once you do that, in your fist commit you can add yourself to AUTHORS.
13:16 gaal that's more or less it :)
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13:18 * QtPlatypus nods
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13:27 QtPlatypus Hi Drbean
13:29 drbean Platypus: Hey
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13:35 iblech gaal: Did you forget to svn add src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs-null? ("installing null prelude... can't open null prelude")
13:36 gaal oops, sorry; sec
13:36 iblech QtPlatypus: (<- metacommitter) What's your mail address? :)
13:37 iblech QtPlatypus: Invitation sent :)
13:37 gaal iblech++ thanks; r5140
13:38 QtPlatypus Thanks.
13:38 gaal but note that since pugscc is broken, you'd better use 5137
13:38 gaal unless you can fix pugscc :) which woudl be grand
13:40 iblech gaal++ # Pugs starts **fast** with the precompiled Prelude :)
13:40 gaal heh, partially because the environment is pretty empty :)
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13:45 svnbot6 r5140, gaal++ | add missing PreludePC.hs-null + svn props
13:51 gaal um, btw that "hello world" you're seeing if you run r5138+ is a marker that the inlining did in fact take place. i'll remove it asap :)
13:53 iblech Yep, saw that, np. I'm moving the declaration of %*INC from Prelude to Pugs.Run currently so the tests don't die
13:53 gaal well, many will, of course
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13:54 gaal if we want we can have them 'use Prelude.pm' in the interim
13:54 gaal hey, is Prelude.pm installed by make install? it oughta be...
13:55 gaal hmm, it is, but not in @*INC, so 'use Prelude' won't work.
13:58 gaal what influences MakeMaker in building pm_to_blib?
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14:03 svnbot6 r5141, qtplatypus++ | Adding a new entry for the cookbook. Valid number detection.
14:08 QtPlatypus Rules are so more readable then perl5 regexs.
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14:14 svnbot6 r5142, iblech++ | Added section about the usual SVN props to pugs::hack and removed old
14:14 svnbot6 r5142, iblech++ | docs/other/development_tips.
14:14 svnbot6 r5143, iblech++ | * Moved declaration of %*INC from Prelude to Pugs.Run, so not all tests die.
14:14 svnbot6 r5143, iblech++ | * Added check for %*ENV<PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE> to util/gen_prelude.pl and removed
14:14 svnbot6 r5143, iblech++ |   the old (commented) Pugs.Run.initPrelude.
14:14 svnbot6 r5143, iblech++ | * Added PreludePC.hs to svn:ignore of src/Pugs.
14:14 svnbot6 r5143, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to new files, QtPlatypus++.
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14:16 gaal iblech, thanks for the gen_prelude celanups!
14:16 gaal cleanups even.
14:16 iblech has joined #perl6
14:17 meppl <gaal> iblech, thanks for the gen_prelude celanups!
14:17 meppl <gaal> cleanups even.
14:17 meppl --> iblech (~iblech@2001:8e0:abcd:14d:2e0:7dff:fee5:bff) has joined #perl6
14:18 gaal (soon we can remove the old src/gen_prelude.hs and Prelude.hs)
14:18 malaire hmm.. should r5143 compile or not? I'm getting error "Installing precompiled prelude... Can't exec "pugs": No such file or directory at util/gen_prelude.pl line 42."
14:18 iblech meppl: Thanks
14:18 iblech gaal: Right
14:18 iblech malaire: It should
14:18 iblech malaire: Probably you don't have pugs in your $PATH
14:19 gaal hmm, but if
14:19 gaal yeah
14:19 gaal that's broken
14:19 gaal but changing the makefile to just say ./pugs won't work (because of windows)
14:19 gaal beh.
14:20 gaal sec, i'll fix that.
14:27 gaal malaire: thanks for the note, please try 5144.
14:27 svnbot6 r5144, gaal++ | fix to use local pugs; add PreludePC.hs to cleanlist
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14:33 malaire gaal: r5144 works, thanks!
14:33 gaal great
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15:50 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I assume you are safely back in Deutchland?
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16:37 gaal hmmm, very weird:
16:37 svnbot6 r5145, gaal++ | make sure first pass compilation always compiles Run, for added reliability
16:37 gaal ./pugs-nop.exe -MPrelude -e 'say "hi"'
16:37 gaal hello, world!
16:37 gaal hi
16:38 gaal ("-nop" is the no-precompiled-prelude pugs)
16:38 gaal But:
16:38 gaal ./pugs-nop.exe -MPrelude t/builtins/undef.t
16:38 gaal hello, world!
16:38 gaal ....and nothing more.
16:38 gaal that is, the module is loaded, but the file isn't.
16:39 gaal anyone with a pre-5138 pugs that can test if this happened there too?
16:40 gaal beh, yes, it happens there too.
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16:41 gaal -M is somehow buggy; i guess that means the canonization in Pugs.Run.Args is wrong
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16:51 putter QtPlatypus: there is the beginning of a grammar for regexs in modules/Grammar.  It would be nice to have it fleshed out...;)
16:55 cwest that would be cool
16:55 cwest is it possible to take grammars and convert them to PIL? (I'm unfamiliar with any of this.)
17:03 putter Currently pugs hands the patterns off to PGE (written in (sigh, everything starts with P) PIR), which parses the patern and generates PIR, creating the matcher.
17:04 putter There has been talk of teaching pugs to parse regexps itself, and perhaps evaluate them, in which case I assume they would be added to PIL, but nothing done that I know of.
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17:07 putter I've been hoping someone will flesh out the regexp grammar.  There is a fuzziness currently, with incomplete implementations of a spec spread across documents and emails.  I'm hoping having something concrete, a cannonical grammar{}, will seed progress.
17:10 * QtPlatypus nods to putter "Thanks"
17:12 QtPlatypus putter: Wouldn't teaching pugs to parse regexes be a step backwards?
17:13 * castaway notes putter is volunteering ;)
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17:15 * castaway hugs nothingmuch
17:16 QtPlatypus Is there anyway to say define a range with steps other then 1?
17:17 QtPlatypus (remove the stray say in that sentence)
17:17 gaal Qt: :by, but i dont' think it's in, and not actualyl sure it's finalized.
17:18 gaal ?eval 1 .. 10 :by 2
17:18 evalbot6 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-38
17:18 castaway theres a way to loop with other stepsyes
17:18 gaal ?eval 1 .. 10 :by<2>
17:18 evalbot6 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-40
17:18 wolverian ?eval 1
17:18 evalbot6 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-19
17:18 wolverian haha.
17:18 gaal i forgot, i broke evalbot.
17:18 castaway ?1
17:18 gaal damn: )
17:18 castaway grats ;)
17:18 gaal iblech, ping?
17:20 gaal (just need to use the prelude explicitly to be fixed)
17:27 putter QtPlatypus: pugs currently depends on PGE (or pcre for rx:perl5/.../) to handle regexps.  so if you say generate javascript from PIL... you still need to drag parrot along just for the regexps.
17:29 putter castaway: but only in a low key, encourage others to do it first, kind of way. ;)
17:30 cwest Interestingly I plan to drag parrot along to do just that. ;-)
17:34 QtPlatypus Given that almost every lang has libaries to give it "perl5" style regexes.  Packaging parrot and the PGE as a libary to give langs "perl6 style rules" would be an easy way to accelarate the installation and distrabution of parrot.
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17:40 putter Interesting idea.  Could be.   My other thought is...
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17:42 putter Haskell might be a better language than PIR to write the thing in.  Right now we have a simple parser, parse tree, codegen, and engine bits.  All written in PIR.  Which is good in avoiding C's unicode issues, but...
17:44 * QtPlatypus thought that pugs did lazy lists but "for (1...) -> $a {say $a}" blows up.
17:46 putter We are going to need analysis and optimization too.  And I suspect for performance we are eventually going to want hybrid engines.  And for convenience, some degree of automated grammar transformation.  Writing that in PIR... would be non-trivial.
17:50 putter Could write it in p6... ;)
17:52 integral no one's tried a core/stg to pil translator yet?
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17:55 theorbtwo Limbic -- yeah.
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17:58 putter Actually, could write it in p6, compile it to PIR, and still do the parrot-based  "perl6 style rules" senario...
17:58 QtPlatypus has joined #perl6
18:01 putter hey QtPlatypus.  while you were briefly gone, "Actually, could write it in p6, compile it to PIR, and still do the parrot-based  "perl6 style rules" senario...". ;)
18:02 * QtPlatypus nods
18:03 QtPlatypus I think it would get compiled to PIR by default just for the speed boost.
18:03 svnbot6 r5146, putter++ | MatchX now sort of almost works.
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18:09 QtPlatypus putter: What does MatchX do?
18:16 putter Hmm, it doesnt have any documentation, does it.  Sigh.  The current Match class has some properties which get in the way of implementing regexp engines.  MatchX is intended as a temporary alternative.  Being p6 rather than a primative, it is easier to tweak.  But as type coersion, stringification, etc, dont work too well, neither does that aspect of MatchX.
18:17 putter The biggest thing is Match is immutable.
18:17 * QtPlatypus thinks that the grammer that matches Perl6 rx should be called Perl6::rx rather then rx
18:18 putter Much better.
18:23 QtPlatypus Damn I should be asleep
18:23 svnbot6 r5147, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - adding a TODO list for the MetaModel; adding an unofficial Synopsis 12.5 document to track the design of the Metamodel;
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18:37 putter bye all.  QtPlatypus, I added a doc line to MatchX, but didnt get a chance to change the grammar name - feel free.  Thanks for your help. :)
18:38 svnbot6 r5148, putter++ | Brief MatchX documentation added. QtPlatypus++
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19:46 svnbot6 r5149, stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel - more docs and more TODOs
19:50 geoffb stevan++ # impressive progress recently!
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20:15 geoffb Afternoon, Limbic_Region
20:18 Limbic_Region salutations geoffb
20:19 geoffb how have you been?
20:19 Limbic_Region tired
20:19 Limbic_Region you
20:19 Limbic_Region ?
20:19 geoffb ditto, and fighting a rather persistent head cold, bleah
20:19 geoffb Recovering from family visit all last week
20:21 geoffb Writing my article while listening to loud music is helping immensely
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20:47 meppl lalala
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21:34 svnbot6 r5150, qtplatypus++ | All the self hosting grammars should be called Perl6::foo
21:34 svnbot6 r5150, qtplatypus++ | So Rx becomes Perl6::Rx
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21:58 integral wow, pugs is very fast now.  ++ all of those who did that :-)
22:10 cognominal what means ANF in Pugs/Compile.hs?
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22:13 clkao Failed 167/350 test scripts, 52.29% okay. 1704/6131 subtests failed, 72.21% okay.
22:13 clkao lots of failures
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22:15 dudley It looks like &eval is broken
22:16 geoffb That's one way to get faster.  ;-)
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22:30 Chewie[] Perl 6 needs something to split by line. Something like <<\nfoo\nbar>>.
22:30 Chewie[] Heredoc-like.
22:30 Juerd Needs?
22:31 Juerd What about:
22:31 Juerd my @foo = q:to'XYZZY'.lines;
22:31 Juerd first
22:31 Juerd second
22:31 Juerd third still third
22:31 Juerd XYZZY
22:32 Chewie[] You could also do <<'END'.lines # Hmm.
22:32 Juerd Sure.
22:32 Chewie[] Or is that the replacement for heredocs, q:to?
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23:18 * luqui believes that <<'END' is gone
23:18 luqui in favor of q:to
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23:36 * theorbtwo wonders if scalar .foos vs list .foos is too cryptocontexty.
23:42 geoffb theorbtwo, if you mean getting a count versus getting the actual items, that seems to be a good portion of the point of being able to act polymorphically based on context . . . .
23:43 geoffb Now that forcing scalar context is a single character, I'm even happier with that WTDI
23:43 luqui it's just that $length = @list.lines doesn't give you a count
23:43 luqui it gives you a ref
23:43 luqui so you need +@list.lines
23:43 geoffb I don't mind +@list.lines.
23:44 theorbtwo Hmm, it doesn't?
23:44 theorbtwo $x = foo doesn't run foo in list context anymore?
23:44 luqui uh...
23:44 luqui never did
23:44 luqui did you mean s/list/scalar/ ?
23:45 theorbtwo erxz_paste, yes, I did.
23:45 geoffb Of course, I personally hate auto-reference magic, because I think it is just as confusing for beginners as morphing sigils, and is likely to mess up experts who really care about whether something is a reference or not and get the hand-waving slightly wrong
23:45 theorbtwo err, yes, I did.
23:45 luqui no, it runs it in scalar context, but scalar context no longer gives you the length
23:46 geoffb Note the very fact that the two of you are having this discussion . . . .
23:46 luqui you have to run in *numeric* context, indicated by an "int" on the var, or a + in front of the call
23:46 theorbtwo But the .lines method can care what context it's being run in.
23:46 theorbtwo Ah.
23:46 theorbtwo I'd like the idea a lot better if general scalar context worked.
23:46 theorbtwo (Even though it messes with people who don't know the difference between a reference and a variable.
23:47 luqui yeah, but the auto-enreferencing has its advantages
23:47 luqui for instance, in `push @foo, 2`, push needn't have a special parsing form
23:47 luqui I'm of mixed feelings on that decision, so I figure I'll just get used to it
23:48 * geoffb thought it was cool at first, and has steadily soured on it
23:48 theorbtwo In general, it is good.
23:48 theorbtwo In some specific cases, it is not good.
23:49 theorbtwo This is one of the cases where it is not good, and probably not good enough to warrant (apparently) breaking the general rule.
23:49 geoffb My souring has come mostly from watching people struggling in here with the number of places it is decidely not good.
23:49 geoffb I'm very glad infinite deref was killed
23:49 luqui for example...?
23:49 luqui no kidding
23:49 theorbtwo The rule isn't really broken, because the more general rule is that things can do what they want to in whatever context they are run in.
23:50 geoffb I guess I shouldn't have said "decidedly not good" but rather "decidedly confusing"
23:50 luqui okay.  for example...?
23:50 geoffb the infinite deref was clearly bad, though . . . .
23:52 geoffb Well, the fact that for various builtins will by default treat scalar context as auto-ref rather than numeric is at the very least confusing
23:52 geoffb But moreso I watched Darren_Duncan struggling with passing things as desired to LKT,
23:53 geoffb and autrijus et al trying to get pugs to do the right thing,
23:53 Darren_Duncan you rang?
23:53 Darren_Duncan or not
23:53 geoffb and thought "Gee, if smart people are having this much trouble, this seems too confusing"
23:53 geoffb Just using your name in vain, Darren_Duncan.
23:53 Darren_Duncan 'vain' is the wrong word to describe that
23:54 geoffb Gee, not going to accept the mantle of godhood?
23:54 geoffb s/using/taking/
23:54 Darren_Duncan fyi, I'll probably release a major Rosetta perl 5 update today ... or tomorrow
23:54 geoffb or whatever it is the Christians say . . . .
23:55 geoffb Anyway, I extrapolated from the general channel issues to the beginning Perl programmers I knew, and thought to myself,
23:55 geoffb "And Larry thought sigil morphing was too confusing?  This one will really screw people up."
23:55 geoffb Did that all make sense to you, luqui?
23:55 geoffb Sorry I'm rambling a bit, but I'm writing in another window, so my brain is in "spew words" mode
23:56 Darren_Duncan the context of what you refer to is people saying things like "you hurt me, so may God strike you down" ... invoking God's name from a context of anger or hate etc
23:56 Darren_Duncan still that is all off topic
23:56 geoffb ah.  noted.
23:57 Darren_Duncan that's what "God's name in vain" means, as I understand it
23:57 geoffb fair enough.
23:57 Darren_Duncan regarding the original comment, I understand that autrijus et al are working on changing something called transparent references ...
23:58 geoffb I thought it was a reference to those who believe you should never refer to their deity by name.
23:58 Darren_Duncan once that's done, the kind of stuff I wanted to do should be a lot easier and intuitive
23:58 luqui geoffb: just got back to my keyboard, commensing reading
23:58 Darren_Duncan it's not so much about refering to a deity by name, its refering to one in anger
23:59 Darren_Duncan a more common version of the 'vain' thing is every time people say stuff like "Christ, why did you do that?"
23:59 geoffb ah!

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