Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 geoffb Once again, I have been led astray by contextual confusion.  ;-)
00:00 Darren_Duncan people seem to say God's name between every other word when they're excited about something ... it has entered common usage ... but it isn't "right"
00:00 Darren_Duncan which has the strange result of people that don't even believe God exists still saying the name in every sentence, like "oh god oh god oh god ..."
00:00 luqui geoffb, I kind of understand what you mean
00:01 luqui in particular, I think Perl 6 makes it too easy to create confusing interfaces without noticing
00:01 geoffb Darren_Duncan, heh
00:01 geoffb luqui, nodnod
00:02 Darren_Duncan as far as my own work goes in using Perl 6 short term ...
00:03 Darren_Duncan while I greatly appreciate all of its new features, I still prefer that any reasonable assumptions I make in perl 5 will still hold true in perl 6
00:04 Darren_Duncan for example, that when you have a reference to something, simply assigning it to a variable, or passing it as a function arg, or returning it from a function, will return a copy of that reference, and not unwrap it or wrap it or anything like that
00:04 Darren_Duncan that's how both Perl 5 and various other languages like Java do it, and that's the default behaviour I want in Perl 6
00:04 geoffb Yes, that's the kind of stuff I was referring to, Darren_Duncan
00:04 Darren_Duncan having easy support for references is essential for making any complicated program
00:05 luqui there is no autoenreferencing
00:05 luqui er, autoderef
00:05 luqui whoops
00:05 luqui references will stay reference
00:05 luqui s
00:05 Darren_Duncan I'm debating whether I should say the last few things on p6l, or whether they already make the same assumptions
00:07 geoffb luqui, what is supposed to happen when you feed a reference to one type of container to a sub expecting a different type of container (but for which there is a defined DWIM conversion)?
00:07 geoffb Is it a type failure or an auto-conversion?
00:08 luqui as in:  sub foo (@a) { }  my $x = [1,2,3];  foo($x)  ?
00:08 geoffb I was thinking something closer to sub foo (%a)
00:08 Darren_Duncan my opinion is that the type signiture of the function argument should specify what happens
00:08 geoffb (and $x having even element count, of course)
00:09 luqui that would be an error
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00:10 Darren_Duncan alternately, I would say that no conversion or only very simple conversions should happen by default ... it should be very predictable, and the syntax simplest for the common case
00:10 Darren_Duncan essentially, more verbose syntax means change more, less verbose means change less or not at all
00:11 geoffb So if I wanted to force the conversion, what should I do (at the caller location)?  Do I have to manually build a hashref before the call to foo?
00:11 Darren_Duncan maybe ... but doing so is easy
00:12 Darren_Duncan I still think that having zero conversion is the best option if nothing in the code explicitly says to do differently
00:12 Darren_Duncan and if there is a type mismatch ... its an error
00:12 geoffb No argument there, I just want to know what the current rules are.  :-)
00:12 luqui geoffb, I think you do
00:12 luqui foo hash @$x
00:13 Darren_Duncan why would anyone do that?
00:13 luqui if @$x is an alternating k/v list
00:13 luqui or a list of pairs
00:13 geoffb Darren_Duncan, what luqui said.
00:13 geoffb Impedence matching of APIs, fer instance
00:14 Darren_Duncan it will take more thought on my part ... but sometimes I think some of this autoconversion stuff is meant to make certain simple programs shorter, but everything else, including large programs, more difficult
00:15 Darren_Duncan or alternately, a feature that's good for a marketing talk but poor in actual work
00:15 geoffb My general preference is proper huffman-coding of a basic semantic that does exactly what you say.
00:16 geoffb The more I say, the more it helps the optimizer and compile-time checks, but it should not change the meaning of the program to be more precise.
00:16 Darren_Duncan I like the new Perl 6 feature that lists will not flatten unless you preceed with '*' or suffix with '[]'
00:16 geoffb I very commonly build medium sized programs by starting with a one-liner, and slowly adding to it.  I want that method of working not to suck.
00:17 geoffb Darren_Duncan, agreed.
00:17 luqui Darren_Duncan, but, they do flatten if they are in a flattening context
00:18 luqui but that arguably happens on the callee side
00:18 Darren_Duncan fyi, the kind of programs I work with routinely use multi-dimensional (as in, structure of structure...) data structures, where all but the root structure is always references anyway, and so I often like to make the root a reference too, keeping everything consistent, and using those everywhere
00:18 geoffb luqui, that would *have* to semantically happen on the callee side, I would think.
00:19 geoffb Darren_Duncan, ditto.
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00:23 meppl why is there a problem with implementing eval correctly?
00:24 luqui where?
00:24 luqui you mean on parrot?
00:24 meppl i dont know ;)
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00:24 luqui well, give me more info about your question then. what made you think it?
00:24 meppl it does not work
00:25 luqui example code?
00:25 meppl # pugs hangman.p6
00:25 meppl pugs: user error (*** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"
00:25 meppl    at ../../ext/File-Spec/lib/File/Spec.pm line 15, column 5-36)
00:25 luqui oh, that's interesting
00:26 luqui you don't have BYPASS_PRELUDE set do you?
00:26 luqui rather, PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE
00:27 meppl so, since today it does not work
00:27 meppl emh, i dont know ;)
00:27 luqui once my pugs finishes compiling, I'll look at the svn logs
00:28 luqui see if there's anything conspicuous
00:30 meppl <clkao> Failed 167/350 test scripts, 52.29% okay. 1704/6131 subtests failed, 72.21% okay.
00:30 meppl <clkao> lots of failures
00:30 meppl <dudley> It looks like &eval is broken
00:30 meppl <geoffb> That's one way to get faster.  ;-)
00:30 luqui hmm
00:31 dudley I get the same error for "&open" and "&Pugs::Internals::check_for_io_leak", too.
00:31 luqui hmm, perhaps the prelude was disabled
00:31 luqui both eval and open are defined in prelude
00:32 dudley I'm assuming this has something to do with the precompiled Prelude...
00:34 dudley Is there a way to disable it, and use the old one instead?
00:35 luqui precompiled prelude is news to me
00:38 dudley It was committed early this morning, I think.
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03:27 svnbot6 r5151, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : adding SubMethod class; changed the MetaModel to use SubMethod for any BUILD methods; creating a new instance will pass all %params from new_instance into the BUILD methods (we need a BUILDALL method really); thats about all for now, time for some sleeping :)
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03:46 svnbot6 r5152, putter++ | Improved MatchX description.
03:46 tainted- where can i find a tutorial on installing CPAN modules?
03:47 wolverian tainted-: perldoc CPAN. you probably want #perl, not #perl6, for such questions.
03:47 Khisanth perlbot: life with cpan > tainted-
03:48 wolverian perlbot: life with cpan > wolverian
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03:52 svnbot6 r5153, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : added several items to the TODO list after skiming over Syn/Apoc 12 again; I think I might need to take some of these to p6l; anyone with time and knowledge is encouraged to review and respond, thanks
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04:06 svnbot6 r5154, putter++ | Added ^,^^,$,$$,literal,<before>, and <after> to rx_grammar.pl
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05:08 gaal morning!
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05:11 theorbtwo G'morning, gaal.
05:15 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "Prelude status" (11 lines, 528B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11497
05:15 gaal Prelude is broken: http://sial.org/pbot/11497 | 6.2.7 released! | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | Chip needs help!!! http://www.geeksunite.net
05:15 spinclad layla tova, gaal
05:15 geoffb morning, gaal
05:15 gaal grrrrrrrrrr
05:15 gaal boker tov
05:16 gaal why doesn't /topic work?
05:16 * geoffb FINALLY finishes article draft
05:16 geoffb man that was like bleading through my forehead
05:16 geoffb bleeding even
05:17 gaal geoffb, what's it on?
05:17 gaal TO2: hi! how was TO? (heh.)
05:17 geoffb OpenGL and SDL_Perl -- fourth in a series on perl.com.
05:17 geoffb Of course, I still have to do an editing pass tomorrow, then forward to chromatic to get his edits . . . .
05:18 geoffb But the hard part is now done, so I feel MUCH better.
05:18 gaal editing becomes much eaiser when you manage to divorce it from the writing phase
05:18 theorbtwo changes topic to: Prelude is broken: http://sial.org/pbot/11497 | 6.2.7 released! | http://pugscode.org/ <Overview Journal Logs> | http://pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | Chip needs help!!! http://www.geeksunite.net
05:18 geoffb nodnod
05:18 gaal thank you, theorbtwo.
05:19 gaal write - edit - write - edit - write - edit - get fed up and edit no more :)
05:19 geoffb Once I've handed it off to chromatic, I'll get back to trying to get it to work in Perl 6.  ;-)
05:19 geoffb NODNOD
05:20 geoffb (Last time I tried, pugs' Perl 5 integration fu was not yet strung enough.)
05:21 theorbtwo Wow.  Chip looks pretty fucked.
05:21 geoffb And chromatic has also since sent me a Parrot patch to get Parrot SDL to handle OpenGL as well, so that might be worth trying also.
05:24 geoffb Well, I think I'm going to call it a night, and enjoy my wife's just-baked banana bread.
05:24 geoffb :-)
05:24 gaal cool stuff :)
05:24 geoffb g'night, all
05:24 gaal bye, geoff
05:28 cwest http://www.openjsan.org/doc/C​WEST/JSAN/0.01/lib/JSAN.html -- o/` rollin rollin rollin o/`
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05:29 gaal if that's what i think it is, wow!
05:29 gaal s/peaking/peeking/
05:30 cwest I think it could be. :-)
05:33 * gaal gets ready for $work
05:33 theorbtwo Looks like it is.
05:34 * cwest & # ready for bed (next week brings more jsan)
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05:44 Odin-LAP Hmm. JSAN ... an interesting idea.
05:45 Odin-LAP Next step, Ecma-262 implementation for Parrot? :p
05:46 theorbtwo Makes sense to me.
05:47 theorbtwo ...not that I'm about to start working on it.
05:48 * Odin-LAP wants one, but isn't really familiar enough with either Parrot or JavaScript to do it. :p
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06:08 ingy hola
06:10 theorbtwo Hola, ingy.
06:10 ingy hi theorbtwo
06:11 theorbtwo All home and decompressed yet?
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06:45 ta[i]nted can anyone help me with a general perl question?
06:46 Khisanth that would be more for #perl than  #perl6 unless you are asking about Perl 6 :)
06:47 ta[i]nted i can't seem to speak in #perl
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06:49 * Khisanth checks logs
06:49 ta[i]nted i just need to connect to a ms sql database instead of mysql
06:54 Khisanth a non specific +q directed specifically at you ...
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07:22 gaal|work rehi
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10:04 QtPlatypus Why can't I create and call a sub called pack?
10:04 gaal|work worksfom
10:04 gaal|work e
10:05 gaal|work ./pugs -e 'sub pack {say "hoo"}pack()'    => "hoo"
10:06 QtPlatypus Ok.
10:08 gaal|work i think autrijus' plane just landed.
10:11 QtPlatypus Ok I see the problem.  If you "use" a file with the same name as the sub it doesn't quite work.
10:12 gaal|work does the fully qualified name work? pack::pack()
10:12 gaal|work autrijus fixed something to do with this then had to revert the fix
10:13 gaal|work brb, time for the weekly reboot :)
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10:43 svnbot6 r5155, qtplatypus++ | A start on Perl6 rules to parse Perl6.  The rules to match littral
10:43 svnbot6 r5155, qtplatypus++ | numbers in code are here.
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10:45 nothingmuch morning
10:45 * nothingmuch 's flight didn't go so well after all
10:45 nothingmuch air canda also overbooked
10:45 nothingmuch so now I am back with malev airlines
10:45 nothingmuch in budapest
10:45 nothingmuch 24 hours late, and not much more
10:45 nothingmuch the good news is that Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix is now mostly javascript free
10:45 nothingmuch except for the + and - buttons
10:46 nothingmuch and it supports stevan's display mode
10:46 shapr has left "oops"
10:46 nothingmuch darcs pull to satisfy your test graphing desires.
10:54 Boogie nothingmuch: still in Budapest, or at home? :)
10:54 svnbot6 r5156, qtplatypus++ | Updating the valid number recipie to make use of the "sel f hosting"
10:54 svnbot6 r5156, qtplatypus++ | rules in modules/Grammer/Perl6.pm
10:55 nothingmuch Boogie: i'll be in budapest for another 11 hours.
10:55 nothingmuch anybody want to donate some basic pod_coverage pleasing docs for Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix?
10:55 Boogie Then welcome to Hungary. But I think you're not happy with it. :)
10:55 nothingmuch you'll get about 1/10th authorship byh being added to an already long list
10:55 nothingmuch Boogie: well, i'm torn
10:55 nothingmuch i'm happy to be out of toronto (finally!)
10:56 nothingmuch but not happy to not be home yet
10:56 nothingmuch i don't really have a chance to see hungary itself, just the airport, and airports always suck
10:56 Boogie :(
10:56 nothingmuch it is note worthy that the cattle prodding in budapest is by far the most pleasant i have ever experienced
10:57 nothingmuch i think in recent years US is the most annoying, and frankfurt is the most unpleasant.
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10:58 QtPlatypus ?eval sub foo { my class bar { } } bar.new()
10:58 evalbot6 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-72
10:58 nothingmuch Boogie: so what am I missing in hungary?
10:58 QtPlatypus Oh evalbots still deadd.
11:00 Boogie nothingmuch: well, it depends on what you're interested in. :) We have the Danube, and the Castle on the Buda side of it, the Parliament, Hero's Square. Nice, hundred+ years old buildings, etc.
11:01 Boogie We have good wines, too.
11:01 * nothingmuch sighs longingly for scenic views and good food
11:01 nothingmuch the airport has sbarro
11:01 masak has joined #perl6
11:02 nothingmuch to make sbarro take
11:02 nothingmuch a. italian food
11:02 nothingmuch b. oil
11:02 nothingmuch c. more oil
11:02 nothingmuch and combine
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11:02 Boogie Bah. :( I don't like airport food. It's very expensive, and usually just junk food.
11:02 nothingmuch right
11:02 nothingmuch that's why I'm having beer for lunch
11:04 Boogie Anyway, how did you get net connection? Finally they setup wifi there?
11:04 nothingmuch yup
11:04 nothingmuch there's t-mobile which want money
11:04 nothingmuch and pannongsm which have better reception, and are free
11:04 QtPlatypus Damn can't seem to create lexically scoped classes.  (Reads A12 to see if there is supposed to be a way to do this)
11:04 dmo has quit IRC (Client Quit)
11:05 nothingmuch QtPlatypus: in the hackathon larry explicitly said there should be, if my memory serves me well
11:05 nothingmuch then again, it could be the sleep deprevation
11:05 * QtPlatypus finds it.
11:05 QtPlatypus our class name {...}
11:06 QtPlatypus I was expecting it to by my class name
11:06 nothingmuch uh, that should be 'my'
11:06 * Boogie going to have lunch
11:07 nothingmuch bon apetite
11:07 Boogie thx
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11:31 * masak is reading the harrorth tutorial
11:31 masak nothingmuch++ # for the harrorth tutorial
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11:34 masak nothingmuch: how well has writing the tutorial helped you learn haskell?
11:36 nothingmuch masak: i progressed a bit during the hackathon, but other ventures have been more demanding
11:37 nothingmuch i'll get back to it soon
11:37 nothingmuch the next step is taking a forth machine, written almost completely in forth
11:37 nothingmuch and support it in haskell
11:37 nothingmuch thus forcing haskell into an either lower level scenario, and learning more
11:37 nothingmuch anyway, i need to find a power outlet
11:37 nothingmuch bbiab
11:38 masak nothingmuch: i'm looking to learn haskell in order to be able to contribute more to pugs code
11:38 masak and trying to find the shortest path between where i am and haskell knowledge
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11:43 nothingmuch outlet found
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11:45 masak wb
11:45 masak nothingmuch: i think your approach (implementing something) is a sound way to learn a language
11:46 masak thing is, i don't know enough about haskell to know what is a good problem to attack
11:48 nothingmuch masak: it's been working well so far
11:48 nothingmuch for me
11:48 nothingmuch haskell has been too pure and theoretical
11:48 nothingmuch i could go through the tutorials
11:49 nothingmuch get all the excercises right
11:49 nothingmuch and in the end i still won't feel like i've learned anything
11:51 pdcawley_ There's definitely something about having a 'real' project for getting your learning onto a higher level isn't there?
11:51 pdcawley_ s/'//g
11:53 masak pdcawley_: yes. question is, what?
11:53 masak i want something which is small enough to manage
11:53 masak but not trivial
11:53 masak is it a good idea to write games in haskell?
11:54 masak nothing fancy, just tic-tac-toe or something...
11:54 pdcawley_ Sudoku solver?
11:55 * masak googles for sudoku
11:56 masak pdcawley_: good idea
12:00 gaal|work hey, nm, welcome halfway home!
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12:28 nothingmuch hola gaal|work
12:44 masak i have concluded that the difference between haskell and other difficult subjects is that in haskell, i can't tell the difference between understanding and not understanding something
12:45 lumi I often find myself in an understanding superposition
12:47 masak lumi: i think that's where i am too now
12:47 masak between understanding and not understanding
12:47 masak i don't dare collapse the wavefunction, though
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12:52 masak from nothingmuch's tutorial: "It's all really some seemingly pointless ping pong." i like that, it describes what's going on in my head when i read 06.kwid
12:56 nothingmuch how far along are you?
12:56 masak nothingmuch: i just read this "(Reader r) >>= f = Reader $ \e -> (runReader (f (r e))) e"
12:57 masak i'm getting scared :)
12:57 nothingmuch ah
12:57 nothingmuch that is good stuff.
12:57 masak is haskell defined by humans?
12:57 nothingmuch it's important to keep in mind that the first >>= in a reader action is the one that returns the function
12:57 nothingmuch the rest is chained
12:57 nothingmuch yes, crazy ones
12:57 masak :)
12:58 masak i'll keep that in mind when reading
13:12 nothingmuch seen chromatic
13:12 jabbot nothingmuch: chromatic was seen 3 days 7 hours 5 minutes 44 seconds ago
13:12 nothingmuch eep
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13:13 pdcawley_ So, what does that do/define?
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13:16 masak fwiw, i can see that autrijus' patch simplifies things
13:18 meppl when is somebody there who can/wants repair the broken &eval and &open? :/
13:19 gaal|work meppl: see topic
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13:20 gaal|work you can work around that by putting 'use Prelude' at the top of your code
13:20 gaal|work you'll need Prelude.pm in your @*INC (not there by default)
13:20 gaal|work the real fix would involve -CPugs
13:20 gaal|work hope that helps :)
13:21 masak seen autrijus
13:21 jabbot masak: autrijus was seen 1 days 3 hours 28 minutes 4 seconds ago
13:21 meppl oh i surveyed it
13:22 meppl gaal, thx
13:22 gaal|work np
13:26 * nothingmuch needs volunteers
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13:30 scook0 nothingmuch: volunteers for what?
13:31 nothingmuch better docs for Test::TAP::HTMLMatroix
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13:33 nothingmuch new UNIVERSAL::isa on cpan, chromatic++
13:33 Khisanth nothingmuch: anyway to keep the [+/-] aligned with the t/test.t ?
13:33 nothingmuch uh, yes
13:33 nothingmuch make a rowspan for t/test.t and so forth
13:33 nothingmuch but i was avoiding that intentionally
13:33 Khisanth the moving thing was a bit confusing :)
13:33 nothingmuch since in the white space (notice there is an empty cell) a distinguishing mark for the result should be displayed
13:33 nothingmuch like 'Windows', 'Linux', etc
13:34 nothingmuch or version numbers, to display the progress of a project over time
13:34 * nothingmuch wonders if it's the first or second time he's uploaded a module from budapest airport
13:44 nothingmuch http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/
13:45 nothingmuch (drolsky|autarch)++
13:45 nothingmuch wonderful modules
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14:26 nothingmuch hola lucs
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14:30 lucs Hey hey nothingmuch.
14:30 lucs I saw you popped in to magnet#perl earlier, and that reminded me about this channel :)
14:33 nothingmuch magnet?
14:33 nothingmuch irc.perl.org?
14:33 lucs Yes.
14:34 nothingmuch ah
14:34 * nothingmuch was searching for chromatic
14:35 lucs I built a recent perl6 on Friday. The last one I had built was dated from the end of March.
14:35 lucs There was an amazong amount of work done!
14:35 lucs amazing too!
14:35 nothingmuch yup =)
14:36 * nothingmuch had a friend who used to say o-mazing
14:36 nothingmuch woot! battery is charged, minicpan is synced, svk pull has finished
14:37 nothingmuch i'm off, i need to move out of this chair
14:37 clkao :)
14:38 nothingmuch search.cpan is updating very quickly nowadays.
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15:57 Aankhen`` ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
15:57 evalbot6 *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-34
15:57 vcv- has joined #perl6
15:57 Aankhen`` O_O
15:57 Aankhen`` ? $?PUGS_VERSION
15:58 Aankhen`` OK, OK, I give up.
15:58 Aankhen`` Hi.
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16:02 iblech has joined #perl6
16:02 Aankhen`` Hiya iblech. :-D
16:02 iblech Aankhen``! Welcome back! :)
16:02 Aankhen`` Thanks!
16:02 Aankhen`` [21:27:38] <Aankhen``> ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
16:02 Aankhen`` [21:27:39] <evalbot6> *** No compatible subroutine found: "&eval"     at -e line 8, column 5-34
16:02 Aankhen`` What did I miss? :-)
16:03 iblech eval() doesn't work ATM, because the Prelude doesn't work ATM, because we're trying to precompile it, but pugscc doesn't work 100% correctly
16:03 Aankhen`` Ah.
16:03 Aankhen`` Oh well.
16:04 Aankhen`` Er, wait.
16:04 iblech Anyway, we're on r5156 currently
16:04 Aankhen`` Does that mean the interactive shell is broken?
16:04 Aankhen`` Hmm... just 400 commits? :-P
16:05 nothingmuch hola iblech
16:05 stevan hey nothingmuch
16:05 iblech No, the interactive shell works, as it doesn't use eval(), but the internal Haskell equivalent
16:05 nothingmuch hey stevan
16:05 Aankhen`` Hiya nothingmuch.
16:05 stevan hey iblech, we missed you at the hackathon
16:05 Aankhen`` iblech >> Ah, okay.
16:05 nothingmuch did you see your summary view?
16:05 Aankhen`` I shall wait for Pugs to compile in that case.
16:05 nothingmuch Aankhen``: hi ho!
16:05 Aankhen`` nothingmuch >> Diggity, too! What's shakin'?
16:05 nothingmuch Aankhen``: budapest airport is expensive
16:06 Aankhen`` Awww.
16:06 nothingmuch $10 for 2 bottles of water, 1 bottle of ice tea
16:06 Aankhen`` That sucks.
16:06 nothingmuch i was going to kick the lady in the face, but then I realized I don't have the strength
16:06 Aankhen`` Tsk, tsk.
16:06 nothingmuch (mental, physical, psychological)
16:07 Aankhen`` I had an epiphany while away.
16:07 Aankhen`` I now understand binary (though slowly). :-D
16:07 Aankhen`` Man, there's so much stuff I want to try out and port and work on and blah blah...
16:07 nothingmuch binary? as in 010101?
16:07 svnbot6 r5157, iblech++ | Usual svn props and EOLs at EOFs added to modules/, lib/, t/, ext/, docs/, and src/.
16:07 Aankhen`` 01 0101, yeh.
16:07 svnbot6 r5158, iblech++ | * Made "pugs -MFoo file.p6" work (previously, file.p6 wasn't executed).
16:07 svnbot6 r5158, iblech++ | * Added a test for this to t/pugsrun/10-dash-uppercase-m.t.
16:07 nothingmuch ah, that's easy
16:08 * Aankhen`` shrugs.
16:08 nothingmuch all you need is practice
16:08 Aankhen`` I had trouble getting my head around it.
16:08 nothingmuch that's the hard part nowadays
16:08 nothingmuch fun practice:
16:08 nothingmuch my $x = 10;
16:08 nothingmuch my $y = 20;
16:08 nothingmuch $x = $x ^ $y;
16:08 nothingmuch $y = $x ^ $y;
16:08 nothingmuch $x = $x ^ $y;
16:08 nothingmuch $x == ?
16:08 nothingmuch $y == ?
16:09 Aankhen`` Later, perhaps I'll try that out...
16:09 Aankhen`` Right now, I need to catch up on things.
16:09 nothingmuch have fun!
16:09 Aankhen`` Heh, thanks.
16:09 Aankhen`` BTW, does three-way binding exist?
16:09 nothingmuch three way binding?
16:10 Aankhen`` my $foo = "foo"; my $bar = "bar"; my $baz = "baz"; $foo := $bar; $bar := $baz;
16:10 nothingmuch hmm
16:10 nothingmuch i doubt that means what yuou'd expect
16:10 Aankhen`` I wrote out a bunch of different cases.
16:10 Aankhen`` I was just wondering.
16:10 nothingmuch := is runtime assignment of containers
16:10 nothingmuch $foo = 10;
16:10 nothingmuch the process is:
16:10 nothingmuch resolfe the name '$foo'
16:11 nothingmuch find it's container
16:11 nothingmuch call the 'scalar_store' method on it, with the argument that is the RHS
16:11 nothingmuch := otoh:
16:11 nothingmuch $foo := $bar;
16:11 nothingmuch resolve '$foo'
16:11 nothingmuch resolve '$bar'
16:11 nothingmuch point the name '$foo' to the container resolved from '$bar'
16:14 Aankhen`` Right...
16:14 nothingmuch so if you say '$foo := $bar; $bar := $baz;
16:14 nothingmuch then $foo is a name for the container containing "bar"
16:15 nothingmuch and both $bar and $baz are names for the container containing "baz"
16:15 Aankhen`` Ah.
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16:23 nothingmuch my butt hurts
16:23 * nothingmuch considers finding a chair
16:28 theorbtwo Mine hurt for /days/ after going canooing, nm.
16:28 theorbtwo (It was fun anyway.)
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16:49 nothingmuch theorbtwo: bah, you need to go out more
16:56 cwest nothingmuch: How'd the js hacks turn out?
16:56 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
16:56 nothingmuch pretty good
16:57 nothingmuch js minimized
16:57 nothingmuch the initial view is css
16:57 cwest cool
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17:22 Aankhen`` Whoa...
17:22 Aankhen`` `pugs -CPIR -e 1` sure creates a lot of code.
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17:32 svnbot6 r5159, Stevan++ | Tree : starting porting the Tree::Visitor modules for sri; they are currently untested (I am building a new pugs right now); I will try to get them tested and running in the near future
18:00 Enveigler has joined #perl6
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18:04 gaal has quit IRC ("goodbye")
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18:07 gaal rehi
18:09 gaal nothingmuch, in-transit-p?
18:09 nothingmuch gaal - i can't find calling card info in hungary
18:09 nothingmuch i need you to call my dad, and make sure he makes the taxi come to the airport
18:09 nothingmuch 3:45
18:09 nothingmuch july 4
18:09 obra nothingmuch: I thought you had a direct flight?
18:09 nothingmuch malev flight 214
18:10 nothingmuch obra: overbooked again
18:10 nothingmuch =(
18:10 gaal sure, number?
18:10 nothingmuch 08-651-2264
18:10 gaal k, his name?
18:10 nothingmuch gaal++
18:10 obra nothingmuch: ! did they give you something else special?
18:10 nothingmuch Menachem
18:10 nothingmuch obra: a voucher for flights in air canada
18:10 obra Heh.
18:10 nothingmuch good for a whole year (wow)
18:10 gaal 3:45 morning here, yes? yaani halayla?
18:10 gaal ani mekave?
18:10 nothingmuch yes
18:11 nothingmuch i hope so too =)
18:11 nothingmuch wow, you're such a lifesaver!
18:11 gaal calling
18:11 nothingmuch mui mui grazie
18:11 gaal however, the machine answered
18:12 nothingmuch eek
18:12 gaal shall i call again later or leave a message?
18:12 nothingmuch alternatives: 08-6461549 (office),. 050-5-693-141
18:12 gaal lama ata lo lokeach monit mehasade? yesh kaele, ata yodea
18:12 nothingmuch 08-651-3522 (neighbors)
18:12 nothingmuch yes, i know, but this is cheaper for me, by like a whole lot
18:12 gaal k
18:12 nothingmuch worst case scenario i will take such a taxi
18:13 stevan_ has joined #perl6
18:13 nothingmuch hola stevan_
18:13 stevan_ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:14 gaal nobody's answering in any of the numbers :) i'll keep trying.
18:14 nothingmuch ook!
18:14 nothingmuch 08-651-0360 (more neighbors, fallback option)
18:15 nothingmuch 050-420-1025 (sister)
18:15 nothingmuch 0577-560-126 (very good friend, reliable, knows my family)
18:16 nothingmuch oh, incidentially i have the driver's number: 052-2-715-310
18:16 svnbot6 r5160, stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - adding a basic MethodTable class, future plans are to refactor all the method stuff in MetaClass to use this instead;
18:16 nothingmuch his name is david
18:16 nothingmuch but to avoid too much confusion, better proxy it
18:17 gaal he replied to your email
18:17 nothingmuch sillyness, i checked 2 mins ago
18:18 gaal please wait for the driver at stiematzki
18:18 nothingmuch okay
18:18 gaal say hi
18:18 nothingmuch gaal++
18:19 gaal david says you may need to wait for him up to 15 minutes in the shop
18:19 gaal and your dad will probably be up when you get home.
18:19 nothingmuch okies
18:19 obra irc++
18:19 obra gaal++
18:19 nothingmuch yeah, yet another 40 hours w/o sleep... =/
18:19 gaal wow, nm, your family is now reachable in perpetuity
18:19 gaal so are your neighbors
18:19 gaal and your friends
18:19 nothingmuch oh my
18:19 gaal and your driver
18:20 obra nothingmuch: decided what conferences you're going to use the vouchers for?
18:20 nothingmuch their privacy
18:20 nothingmuch violate
18:20 nothingmuch d
18:20 nothingmuch obra: oscon, ofcourse
18:20 obra nothingmuch: ooh
18:20 obra excellent. I'll see you next month :)
18:20 nothingmuch since i'm so filthy rich i can afford a ticket after the voucher deducts like, 30%
18:20 gaal and think about the people in stiematzky! they're innocent!
18:20 gaal your dad says you should sue the company for the fare
18:21 nothingmuch i should
18:21 nothingmuch i'll talk to him when i get there
18:21 nothingmuch i want at least a day's pay in compensation
18:21 nothingmuch because that is what I lost
18:21 gaal whoa, they'll go bankrupt :)
18:21 nothingmuch yeah, i'm a hotshot exec
18:22 nothingmuch didn't you know i make $200 an hour?
18:22 gaal re: the html thingie - i hope in "hidden" mode the summary line actually contains red if one of the subtest instances is red
18:22 gaal btw, i once implemented something like this widget in gtk
18:22 gaal in c
18:22 nothingmuch gaal: the right side summary should be orange
18:22 nothingmuch it isn't yet, but that's a minor issue
18:23 nothingmuch furthermore, it's automatically expanded if there's any diff
18:23 gaal two days after i finished it someone committed such a widget to the main tree
18:23 nothingmuch so if one is all OK
18:23 nothingmuch and one is partially OK, both are displayed
18:23 nothingmuch what's the widget called?
18:23 gaal then it should be all hidden. od courtse
18:23 gaal GTkDisclosure i think
18:23 gaal s/T/t/
18:24 nothingmuch oh, for the +/- thing
18:24 gaal including a summary line and stuff, yea
18:24 gaal h
18:24 gaal so, is autrijus zonked out in taipei?
18:24 nothingmuch i think that he should have landed by now
18:24 nothingmuch eep, i need electricity
18:24 nothingmuch bbiab
18:25 gaal yes, i'd think some hours ago
18:25 obra gaal: I'm hoping he sleeps for 48 hours
18:25 nothingmuch gaal++ # thanks so much once more
18:25 Southen[a] has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:25 gaal i'm hoping he fixes pugscc in one of his sweet sweet dreams
18:25 gaal and that his fingers twitch 'ci'.
18:25 gaal nm: de nada
18:29 gaal ooh! iblech++ # r5158
18:39 cognominal_ when you delete directories in a svk checkout path, what is the manip to restore them?
18:40 gaal don't you just pull again? (not an svk user)
18:41 cognominal_ nope, without the .svn dirs, he is lost?
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18:47 Aankhen`` See y'all in the morning
18:47 Aankhen`` .
18:47 Aankhen`` G'night.
18:47 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Intelligent alien life does exist, otherwise they would have contacted us. [Time wasted online: 1hr 26mins 5secs]")
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18:51 nothingmuch there is a bunch of finish kids, with some parents
18:51 nothingmuch one is playing violin
18:51 nothingmuch and the rest are dancing
18:51 nothingmuch and everyone is clapping every time they finnish (no pun intended)
18:51 * nothingmuch is amused and cheered up
18:51 gaal finnish eh? http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13887427
18:52 nothingmuch oh my! my weight in beer! i'll carry a woman for that
18:52 nothingmuch beer is too expensive
18:53 nothingmuch unless you go to YAPC::EU::2005, in braga, where the beer is 70 c
18:54 gaal i think it's the woman's weight in beer
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18:55 cognominal_ for YAPC in Paris, the main complaint was the price of beers in basseries and pubs
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18:55 gaal where was it, cognominal?
18:55 nothingmuch gaal: yes, you're right
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18:55 nothingmuch paris silly
18:55 gaal duh
18:55 gaal which quarter?
18:56 gaal because food is generally cheaper in paris than in tel-aviv, or used to be when i was there
18:56 cognominal_ that was pretty central
18:57 gaal unless of course you buy orange juice in tuileries
18:57 cognominal_ CNAM, the school that hosted us. is near Republique
18:57 gaal is that in 11eme?
18:57 cognominal_ Paris is a massive tourist rip-off
18:58 gaal maybe 12th?
18:58 cognominal_ I try to figure out..
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18:58 gaal if it were a little north from there it'd probably have been cheaper :)
18:59 cognominal_ you know pretty well Paris...
18:59 cognominal_ CNAM is 3ieme arrondissement
18:59 gaal not well enough :) i was visiting family there
19:00 cognominal_ next French Perl Workshop will probably at Cite' des sciences
19:00 cognominal_ that is north of Paris
19:01 cognominal_ like we did in 2004. http://conferences.mongueu​rs.net/2004/whatisit.html
19:01 skugg cognominal_: in case you didn't solve your problem: svk revert -R <dir>
19:02 cognominal_ I did it the violent way... rm -rf ~/.svk  and starting over...
19:03 cognominal_ gaal: this year was nice, it was at Marseille: http://conferences.mongueurs.net/fpw2005/
19:03 gaal sounds great, if only i knew french :)
19:03 gaal nothingmuch: back-p?
19:03 cognominal_ if you know enough curses, you are set up
19:04 gaal heh, i'm sure i can learn some in time for the next workshop :)
19:04 cognominal_ gaal: but you are welcome at #perlfr on irc.perl.org
19:04 gaal i thought you'd say, though, that i just need to submit an $A++
19:04 cognominal_ #perlfr at freenode is not interestsing
19:05 cognominal_ you are welcome too, I maintain that page with BooK
19:05 cognominal_ and I am the guy who scores the nost $A++
19:05 gaal you guys are deliciously insane :)
19:05 clkao skugg! i thought you hate irc channels!
19:06 cognominal_ unlike BooK, I don't do pink unless obliged
19:06 autrijus has joined #perl6
19:06 skugg clkao: meh. i do.
19:06 skugg clkao: sometimes I endure
19:06 skugg :)
19:07 gaal $::(<A>)++; # lame, but p6 :)
19:09 cognominal_ gaal,what is your real name? I am on irssi and I am lost
19:10 nothingmuch ucfirst()
19:10 gaal $::(«A»)++; same thing with "French" quotes, in honor of your language
19:10 gaal Gaal Yahas
19:12 gaal hey, i think i might have discovered a bug with this a-plus!
19:12 gaal my $a; $::("a")++ should find a package-scoped $a, not a lexical :)
19:12 gaal obfuscation is so important to the development of a language.
19:15 cognominal_ I learn a lot about Perl5 doing $A++
19:17 gaal the one called "here-in" is very nice
19:17 gaal so are many others :)
19:18 cognominal_ hum, cut and paste does not work, I need to figure out out to do french quotes in emacs
19:18 justatheory has quit IRC ()
19:18 cognominal_ J'y pense et puis j'oublie :(
19:18 gaal docs/quickref/unicode
19:19 justatheory has joined #perl6
19:19 gaal are you cog on perlmonks?
19:20 cognominal_ nope, i am stefp...
19:20 gaal darn, i have to go now for a bit. see y'all later :)
19:21 cognominal_ but, I am not much active there anymore
19:21 cognominal_ gaal: your code calls &A,
19:21 gaal you need to say 'my $A' first
19:21 gaal and then it works, erroneously
19:22 gaal or say 'our $A', and then it should work correctly
19:22 gaal when we have a non-strict mode, it should work too :)
19:22 gaal but that mode isn't specced
19:23 cognominal_ :)
19:23 gaal i gotta go :)   /me waves &
19:23 cognominal_ wihtout French quotes, it works...
19:23 cognominal_ I will post that one.
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19:55 gaal cogniminal: the French-quotes one works for me
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20:31 pelagic Hello World!
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22:23 geoffb OK, completely off topic, but what the hell . . .
22:24 svnbot6 r5161, autrijus++ | * Rename YAPC.spork and merge it back to Apocalypse_Now
22:24 svnbot6 r5162, autrijus++ | * partially cleanup ChangeLog
22:24 svnbot6 r5163, autrijus++ | * recursive_polymorphism_and_type_inference: fix Haskell
22:24 svnbot6 r5163, autrijus++ |   syntax and the corresponding Perl6 syntax
22:24 svnbot6 r5164, autrijus++ | * File::Spec - now that module system is there, we can't
22:24 svnbot6 r5164, autrijus++ |   simply `require` File::Spec::(Unix|Win32) anymore; they
22:24 svnbot6 r5164, autrijus++ |   have to be exported to File::Spec's caller.
22:24 svnbot6 r5165, autrijus++ | * repair `use_ok` to import to `caller().package`.
22:24 geoffb Is the proper phrase "in #perl6" or "on #perl6"?
22:24 * geoffb editing his article . . .
22:24 obra Usually, on
22:24 geoffb Looks like I kicked svnbot6.  :-)
22:25 geoffb thanks obra
22:25 meppl in ;)
22:25 meppl in #perl6
22:25 geoffb oh dear
22:26 geoffb Something tells me that whichever one I choose, it will get changed by the editor
22:26 obra geoffb: give a full sentence?
22:26 geoffb Well, here's the last part:
22:26 geoffb "or ping me on |#sdlperl| on |irc.freenode.net| ."
22:27 meppl just think about what a channel is - a pipe or something
22:27 meppl so, were on the end of the pipe ;)
22:28 geoffb But then when you are working on a system, you are "ssh'ed in", but "working on"
22:28 meppl hm
22:29 meppl "in the chatroom" and "on the channel"
22:29 geoffb hmmm, I'd buy that.
22:29 meppl but i always say "im in #perl6" or so on - who cares
22:29 geoffb nodnod
22:30 geoffb It's just the kind of thing that bugs you when you're proofreading, you know?  :-)
22:31 osfameron I'd say on #perl6
22:32 obra meppl: are you a native speaker?
22:32 meppl no, im german
22:32 obra *nod*
22:32 meppl my english isnt very good ;)
22:32 obra English prepositions get really weird. I can't blame you
22:33 geoffb obra, oh yeah, I second that.
22:33 geoffb I used to think I had a pretty good handle on English.  Then I discovered it's basically a mess (and not entirely in the good way)
22:33 * skugg would probably use 'on irc' but 'in #foo'
22:34 skugg but then I'm not a native either. although, I think that's often an advantage; we've had to actually _learn_ the grammar...
22:34 geoffb I'm almost thinking that it reads best as "in #foo on net.work", just for flow reasons.  Since there's debate about the first preposition, flow might win
22:34 svnbot6 r5166, autrijus++ | * Emit.PIR and AST.Scope: Do not derive the slow and bloaty
22:34 svnbot6 r5166, autrijus++ |   `Read` typeclass anymire
22:34 svnbot6 r5167, autrijus++ | * AST.Internals, CodeGen.PIR - deal with the fallout of
22:34 svnbot6 r5167, autrijus++ |   not deriving from `Read`. also introduce `newHash` for incHV.
22:34 geoffb Clearly autrijus is rested.
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22:44 svnbot6 r5168, autrijus++ | * qualified names now dealt with consistently; new and
22:44 svnbot6 r5168, autrijus++ |   improved API moved to Pugs.Eval.Var:
22:44 svnbot6 r5168, autrijus++ |      isQualified, packageOf, qualify, toPackage, toQualified,
22:44 svnbot6 r5169, autrijus++ | * `our` variables in packages now generate qualified symbols.
22:44 svnbot6 r5170, autrijus++ | * `eval` now pushes one caller frame, just as Perl5's eval does.
22:44 svnbot6 r5171, autrijus++ | * new trait, `is builtin`, for Prelude.pm which installs the symbol
22:44 svnbot6 r5171, autrijus++ |   into the global namespace.
22:44 svnbot6 r5172, autrijus++ | * `caller` now counts the topmost "main" as one frame,
22:44 svnbot6 r5172, autrijus++ |   just as Perl5's does.
22:44 svnbot6 r5172, autrijus++ | * @?INIT and @?CHECK are now renamed back to @* space.
22:44 svnbot6 r5173, autrijus++ | * first step toward transparent container: `ref` now
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22:44 svnbot6 r5173, autrijus++ |   reports the underlying value.
22:44 svnbot6 r5174, autrijus++ | * adjust various tests to reality.  Chief among them is
22:44 svnbot6 r5174, autrijus++ |   that latin1 >> and << should not be expected to work.
22:46 clkao massive autrijus attach
22:46 skugg i hope he's doing a push, and not comitting at that rate...
22:46 skugg :)
22:49 geoffb Actually, I hope he *is* committing at that rate . . . it would mean he is well rested and back in turbo mode
22:49 geoffb Ah, misread the timestamps.
22:50 geoffb Yeah, 7 commits in 17 seconds would be a tad fast even for him.  :-)
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22:50 Juerd latin1 >> and << not to be made working?
22:50 Juerd Holy crap. I had more expected the unicode thingies to be delayed.
22:51 * Juerd can't change all terminals to utf8 just yet.
22:51 Juerd Ah well... Let's hope the texas1 work :)
22:51 Juerd (Which so far they have)
22:51 SamB Juerd: you have secured a supplier for magical UTF-8 pixie dust to change hard terminals over?
22:51 Juerd SamB: No
22:52 SamB than why say "just yet"?
22:52 Juerd SamB: I'd be satisfied already if ssh + screen would give me utf8.
22:52 Juerd I have no hard terminals
22:52 SamB oh
22:52 * SamB neither
22:54 obra Juerd: screen -U doesn't love you?
22:54 vcv- has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:55 Juerd obra: No
22:55 Juerd obra: Not enough, that is. It works without ssh.
22:55 Juerd obra: And without screen
22:55 Juerd And without both ssh and screen
22:55 Juerd But not with the combination of ssh and screen
22:55 obra huh.
22:55 Juerd Funny
22:55 Juerd That is *exactly* what I keep thinking.
22:57 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
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23:04 skugg Juerd: http://jerakeen.org/blog/20​05/06/23/screen-irssi-utf8 -- does that work for you?
23:06 clkao you shou8ld ♨ if it works
23:06 Juerd That's what I did when I tried
23:06 clkao you should see ♨
23:06 Juerd Oh, I know how to test it.
23:06 Juerd I'm not unfamiliar with utf8 itself
23:08 mugwump clkao.♨
23:09 osfameron is that a steaming pie?
23:09 mugwump it's the hot springs operator
23:10 skugg clkao: hm... I can see those... i just can't type them :(
23:10 skugg (or, any non-ascii chars)
23:10 osfameron UNICODE OPERATORS MUST DIE!
23:11 clkao skugg: you need my friend's uniqe input mehtod
23:12 skugg clkao: yes, that too. but I can't even type non-ascii characters that I have on my keyboard into it
23:12 skugg s/it/a terminal/
23:14 clkao skugg: go to bed, you have a nasty bug to solve tomorrow
23:16 mugwump screen really thwarts all attempts to use Unicode without its approval
23:19 skugg clkao: heh. night then.
23:35 SamB has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:44 Darren_Duncan I like Unicode operators and they should stay
23:44 Darren_Duncan oh, and Parrot 0.2.2 is up, so that prerequisite for Pugs is out of the way
23:46 obra  chip++ # monthly releases
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