Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-06

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 wilx has joined #perl6
00:12 rafl So is there any project admin available at the moment? It would be nice to add the user rafl to the commiters list.
00:12 obra rafl: hold
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00:15 obra rafl: done
00:15 rafl obra: Thanks.
00:21 mugwump src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs:28:15: Not in scope: `astPCP'
00:21 mugwump is that you, gaal ?
00:25 mugwump Installing precompiled prelude... ./pugs: error while loading shared libraries: libparrot.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
00:25 mugwump there's my problem
00:25 spinclad Juerd, i may not have the full upsidedown charset, esp. in <B>; i can decypher all but 'Abuse|misuse results in account ____in__ion'.
00:26 spinclad nm, a fresh thought suggests 'termination'.
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00:34 svnbot6 r5242, mugwump++ | add to svn:ignore property some generated files
00:34 svnbot6 r5243, mugwump++ | Make sure gen_prelude.pl fails if pugs returns an error code
00:44 mugwump hmm, even the precompiled Prelude adds almost 2s to pugs -e 1
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00:52 mugwump Adding "use Test;" to the top of src/perl6/Prelude.pm doesn't speed up tests, either!  Adds 3s to runtime
00:52 svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Fixed Copyright notice
00:52 svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Removed debian/{README.Debian,dirs,files,pugs.substvars}
00:52 svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Better description
00:52 svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Added me to uploaders
00:52 svnbot6 r5244, rafl++ | * Bumped up Standards-Version
00:53 meppl :-P
00:58 mugwump however it does populate src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs with >1MB of Haskell very enlightening to internals
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01:27 rafl 02:14 < obra> rafl: hold
01:27 rafl 02:14 < obra> rafl: hold
01:27 rafl 02:14 < obra> rafl: hold
01:27 rafl Whops. Sorry..
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01:37 rafl The perl5 modules from the pugs distribution are installed in /usr/local/ by default for me while the rest is installed into /usr. How to change that?
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01:48 mugwump rafl: you'll possibly need to edit the Makefile.PL to pass around the relevant PREFIX setting properly
01:48 mugwump at a guess
01:50 rafl mugwump: perl Makefile.PL INSTALLDIRS=vendor seems to work.
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02:09 rafl Well, it doesn't. If I do so the rest isn't installed anymore.
02:21 rafl Ah, got it. There is a pure_site_install rule in the generated Makefile that installs the p6 stuff.
02:21 rafl But it seems to be broken.
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02:36 rafl OK, I have a fix for it. Would someone please test it and give me some feedback? http://www-user.tu-chemnitz​.de/~rafl/makefile_fix.diff
02:37 rafl It works really nice for me.
02:44 autrijus I'll use /\bman\d\b/ instead of /man\d/; also please try to keep expandtab (i.e. spaces only) too; also please add yourself to AUTHORS. I'll commit your patch with detab and the \b fix now
02:44 svnbot6 r5245, autrijus++ | * some leftover misc. test fixes from the airport work
02:45 autrijus committed as r5246
02:45 autrijus thanks :)
02:46 * autrijus sinks back into blissful sleep... &
02:47 rafl autrijus: OK, thanks.
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02:49 svnbot6 r5246, autrijus++ | * rafl's patch to make Pugs's lib6 part install correctly under
02:49 svnbot6 r5246, autrijus++ |   Debian into the sitescript and man* directory.
02:49 svnbot6 r5247, rafl++ | * Added me to AUTHORS
02:52 clkao summon autrijus
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02:54 rafl What do you use to speed up compilation times? Is there a way to make ghc use ccache or something equal?
02:58 mugwump make unoptimised bypasses gcc for compilation, this makes it a lot faster
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03:21 mugwump and it also skips a whole load of other optimising too
03:21 mugwump actually maybe that other optimising is what takes the time
03:21 * mugwump is running make with ghc -v set in the makefile
03:25 * theorbtwo ponders finishing his new build system.
03:25 theorbtwo Every time I think I'm done, though, I discover that I'm not.
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03:26 dudley theorbtwo: While you're at it, write one for parrot that doesn't use Makefiles, so I can build it on VMS :-)
03:27 theorbtwo Yeah, well, it's not really so much new as drasticly altered.
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03:37 rafl What is usr/lib/perl6/5.8/CORE/pugs/gen_prelude for?
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03:39 theorbtwo rafl: It generates a prelude.hs.  We probably shouldn't ship it.
03:39 theorbtwo orafu, at least, I see no reason to ship it.
03:41 mugwump install it, you mean ;)
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03:43 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; "barbar"~~ /<foo.blacksheep>/
03:43 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
03:44 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; ? ("barbar"~~ /<blacksheep>/)
03:44 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
03:44 QtPlatypus ?eval grammar foo {rule blacksheep {bar*}}; ? ("barbar"~~ /bar*/)
03:44 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
03:44 QtPlatypus ?eval ? ("barbar"~~ /bar*/)
03:44 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
03:44 QtPlatypus ?eval ? ("barbar"~~ /bar/)
03:45 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
03:45 QtPlatypus Ok regex matching is broken in evalbot
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03:46 rafl Hm, I can't see which rule installs gen_prelude..
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03:56 spinclad probably none.  isn't it used in place?
03:59 rafl I think it's done by the pure_$(INSTALLDIRS)_install and util/src_to_blib.pl
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04:24 rafl Is there a manpage for pugs and pugscc somewhere?
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04:24 spinclad ^ yes, what src_to_blib.pl is doing could well be more selective.
04:25 rafl Ah, pugscc has some pod.
04:25 rafl spinclad: Right. But on which facts should it decide what to include and what not? Simply hardcoded paths?
04:26 spinclad i think that will take some input from lambdafolk...
04:26 rafl What's lambdafolk?
04:27 spinclad but i could see it turning into a long spelled-out list
04:27 spinclad haskellfolk
04:27 theorbtwo I think the current API for doing plugins needs all the hi and o files.
04:28 spinclad would it be enough to copy across .../*.hi and .../*.o?  that wouldn't be a big change to src_to_blib
04:30 Darren_Duncan maybe this was mentioned here but I'm getting a Makefile.PL error ... can't generate ... Perl 6 ... for ... darwin ...notify ... Brian Ingerson / ingy
04:30 Darren_Duncan I assume this is due to an update in progress
04:30 theorbtwo We might need *.h as well, at which point there isn't much we don't have.
04:31 rafl Darren_Duncan: Well, I made some changes a short while ago. What's exactly the problem?
04:32 Darren_Duncan 'perl Makefile.PL' fails
04:32 spinclad there's *.hs, and gen_prelude* at least.  question would be whether it's worth being more selective.  eventually yes, i'd think.
04:32 rafl Darren_Duncan: Yes. What's the full error message you get?
04:32 Darren_Duncan one minute ...
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04:33 Darren_Duncan Can't generate the correct Perl6 equivalent for:  /  field name: installsiteman3dir  /  osname: darwin  / Please notify the maintainer of this code. (Brian Ingerson for now)
04:33 Darren_Duncan it says that following the standard 'parrot linking disabled'
04:34 theorbtwo find inc|xargs grep 'Please notify'
04:34 Darren_Duncan I noticed that a 'debian' directory was added recently ... was perhaps some functionality moved out of the generic directories and needs to be repeated for each OS?  ... perhaps that's the case and 'darwin' wasn't done yet
04:35 rafl Darren_Duncan: No. Try to substitute installsiteman3dir in inc/PugsConfig.pm by siteman3dir.
04:36 Darren_Duncan file PugsConfig.pm; line 74
04:36 theorbtwo No, the debian directory just has stuff for making .deb files.
04:38 Darren_Duncan I updated lines 47 and 48, and now Makefile.PL doesn't give that error
04:39 Darren_Duncan it does throw some warnings about uninitialized var concatenation in Makefile.PL, though; line 242
04:40 spinclad installsiteman{1,3}dir are new, they may need some sort of setup on darwin.
04:40 rafl Darren_Duncan: Yes. You'll need to substitute that as well in the postable part of Makefile.PL.
04:43 rafl Cool. The Debian packages are now lintian clean. :-)
04:44 revdiablo rafl++
04:47 rafl Can anyone tell my why the blib(5) stuff is as a source package with Makefile.PL, MANIFEST, tests and stuff?
04:52 spinclad rafl++ # .debs are cool
04:52 revdiablo we've had .debs for a while, spinclad. rafl just fixed 'em up more better. :)
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04:53 spinclad deb++ # better .debs are cool
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04:54 spinclad yeah, i was just looking at debian/ earlier today, but wasn't near doing anything with it myself
04:56 revdiablo I've been building pugs into a .deb for a while, it seems to work fairly well. I think the changes rafl made are just to get it more compliant
04:56 rafl I'm not sure what to do about the -doc package. There are so much different formats of documentation there. Do you think I should convert it to something more uniform?
04:57 rafl revdiablo: Yes. They were quite messy. They didn't even build in a pbuilder environment.
04:57 revdiablo I don't really know what pbuilder is, but I'm glad you cleaned them up regardless. :)
04:59 rafl That's a chroot for building packages. It only contains build-essential and required packages.
04:59 rafl It's important that the package works with pbuilder. Otherwise the debian autobuilders can't build it if someone uploads pugs into the archive.
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05:13 svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Removed debian/docs
05:13 svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Fixed Uploaders field
05:13 svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Fixed Build-Deps
05:13 svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Improved debian/copyright
05:13 svnbot6 r5248, rafl++ | * Improved debian/rules
05:15 QtPlatypus I'm thinking of writing "Str".trans from S05 as it doesn't seem to be implemented yet.  Before I start on this where should I put the tests for it and where should the code go, somewhere in prelude?
05:15 Darren_Duncan has left
05:19 Aankhen`` The tests for it could maybe go under t/builtins/?
05:21 Aankhen`` Um.
05:22 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "perl Makefile.PL bombs on Win32" (29 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11558
05:23 chromatic has joined #perl6
05:23 chromatic I think someone broke exporting.
05:24 chromatic Check out ext/Test-Builder/t/010_Test_Builder_.t
05:25 rafl Aankhen``: Check out again and try again, please.
05:25 svnbot6 r5249, rafl++ | * s/installsiteman(1|3)dir/siteman$1dir/g
05:25 Aankhen`` OK.
05:26 Aankhen`` Nope.
05:26 Aankhen`` No go.
05:26 rafl Same error?
05:26 Aankhen`` Yes.
05:26 rafl Aankhen``: Can you please show me your %Config?
05:27 Aankhen`` Shall I nopaste it?
05:28 QtPlatypus Aankhen``: Thanks.
05:28 rafl Aankhen``: Please.
05:29 Aankhen`` Er... wait... do you just want `perl -MConfig -e "print %Config"`?
05:29 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
05:30 rafl Aankhen``: A more readable format would be better. Maybe using Data::Dumper.
05:30 Aankhen`` Ah, OK.
05:30 Aankhen`` That was my second guess. :-P
05:30 ImustDIE is ghc required to get pasm/pir code from pugs?
05:30 chromatic Yes.
05:31 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "Perl 5 %Config" (972 lines, 36.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11559
05:31 ImustDIE can i change the path where it looks for ghc at?
05:32 chromatic Looks like setting the GHC environment variable will do it.
05:33 chromatic Before you run Makefile.PL, anyway.
05:34 ImustDIE i'm using the binary build from pixigreg.com/?pxperl on windows, so things are a little mixed around, i'll see if i can figure it out though
05:35 chromatic A quick grep showed that Perl6::MakeMaker::assert_ghc() looks like the likely place, ImustDIE.
05:35 ImustDIE thanks
05:38 rafl Aankhen``: Does it work now?
05:38 svnbot6 r5250, rafl++ | * Fix Makefile.PL for perl installations without $Config{installsiteman\ddir}
05:38 * Aankhen`` checks.
05:38 Aankhen`` Yay!
05:38 rafl Cool. :-)
05:38 Aankhen`` rafl++ rafl++
05:40 rafl Well, I also broke it this night.. rafl--;
05:40 Aankhen`` I prefer to let bygones be bygones. ;-)
05:40 chromatic Hm, export is not broken.
05:40 chromatic Function dispatch may be.
05:44 rafl Aankhen``: What perl are you using, btw?
05:45 Aankhen`` ActivePerl.
05:45 rafl Ah.
05:45 Aankhen`` I'm a big fan of ActiveState. ^_^
05:46 rafl Well, I'm not. Their perl doesn't have $Config{installsiteman3dir}..
05:47 Aankhen`` Luckily, that doesn't affect me most of time. =)
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05:51 ImustDIE chromatic: figured it out, thanks alot
05:51 chromatic You're welcome.  Glad to help.
05:52 Aankhen`` rafl >> I hate to tell you this, but...
05:52 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "nmake install bombs" (18 lines, 774B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11561
05:53 rafl :-/
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05:56 rafl Aankhen``: Can you show me the Makefile?
05:56 svnbot6 r5251, rafl++ | * Removed debian/pugs-doc.{docs,install}
05:56 svnbot6 r5251, rafl++ | * Cleaned up debian/rules
05:56 svnbot6 r5251, rafl++ | * Install documentation in the right place
05:56 svnbot6 r5251, rafl++ | * Fixed debian/changelog
05:58 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 203.101.1.28 pasted "Makefile" (1457 lines, 94K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11562
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06:02 rafl Aankhen``: fixed?
06:02 svnbot6 r5252, rafl++ | * Added debian/pugs-doc.dirs
06:02 svnbot6 r5253, rafl++ | * Fix util/PugsConfig.pm for strange perl installations like ActiveState
06:03 chromatic Ahh, adding "module main" to the test file fixes things.
06:03 chromatic Perhaps it thinks it's in the wrong module.
06:04 gaal hi folks. i only have a couple of minutes but i saw prelude questions in the backlog
06:04 gaal current state: worked around (See topic)
06:04 gaal *two* preludes are generated now, and only one is used.
06:05 gaal what is used now is the inlined p6 source code, which has to be compiled on every pugs load -- slow
06:05 gaal this is src/gen_prelude.hs and has a makefile rule of its own
06:06 gaal also (disabled but not removed completely) there's the precompiled predlude gen (util/gen_prelude.pl ; Pugs.PreludePC.hs)
06:07 rafl gaal: But src/gen_prelude isn't needed to run pugs, right? It's installed by default..
06:07 gaal the scaffolding to load it works, but pugscc doesn't generate a complete enough dump yet, so it isn't in
06:07 gaal rafl: ah. right, it shouldn't be installed, it's part of the build process only.
06:07 gaal both of them.
06:08 gaal do you install anythign from util/ in debian?
06:08 rafl gaal: OK. So I think there's a change to util/src_to_blib.pl needed. It currently installs everything.
06:08 rafl gaal: What ways are there to install only the needed things?
06:09 rafl gaal: Only the vim syntax highlighting, currently.
06:09 gaal i don't know :) haven't packaged any debs
06:09 gaal exactly what i was thinking :) and perhaps the smoke stuff
06:09 gaal anyway i must go, bbiab
06:10 gaal just note the double link in the build process isn't actually useful right now, but will be soon, one hopes.
06:10 * gaal waves &
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06:14 svnbot6 r5254, rafl++ | * Run make test before installing
06:16 Aankhen`` rafl >> Seems to be working now, thanks. :-)
06:16 Aankhen`` (r5253)
06:17 rafl Phew.. :-)
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07:05 svnbot6 r5255, chromatic++ | Show name of sub with mismatched parameters in invocant binding failure message.
07:05 svnbot6 r5255, chromatic++ | Comment typo fix in Pugs.Lexer.
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08:56 QtPlatypus Is there a page that tells you how do unicode chars in emacs?
08:59 Nattfodd What about http://www.vim.org/ ;p
09:01 lumi "You can insert a character by its Unicode number using "M-x insert-ucs-character"." -- Does that help?
09:01 lumi In mule-UCS I think
09:04 * QtPlatypus finds ucs-insert
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09:59 QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo" @_};test("a","b","c","d");
09:59 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "@" expecting operator, ",", ":", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
09:59 QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a","b","c","d");
09:59 evalbot6 'afoobfoocfood'
09:59 QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a" => "b","c" => "d");
09:59 evalbot6 ''
10:00 QtPlatypus Is that a bug?
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11:14 JaffaCake I can't build pugs: "Perl v6.0.0 required--this is only v5.8.0, stopped at /home/simonmar/tmp/Perl6-Pugs​-6.2.7/blib/lib/File/Find.pm line 3."
11:14 JaffaCake can anyone shed any light?
11:17 jp-autark I've had the exact same error, getting a newer perl helped.
11:17 jp-autark as in 5.8.7 or something.
11:17 jp-autark although, it was another module which complained, not File::Find.
11:19 pjcj seems that perl5 is trying to run the perl6 libraries
11:21 pjcj (are you allowed to run unix at microsoft?)  ;-)
11:22 Arathorn i'm sure the Mac BU at M$ do so occasionally ;)
11:23 Arathorn (and the CLR freebsd dudes)
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11:25 JaffaCake pjcj: shhhh :)
11:26 Aankh|Clone I really don't like Java.
11:26 Aankh|Clone The concept is interesting, but I absolutely dislike the numerous crashes.
11:27 Arathorn i hate the jar dependency/classloader hell :(
11:27 Aankh|Clone I am blissfully ignorant of that particular hell. =)
11:27 Aankh|Clone Anyway.
11:27 * Aankh|Clone returns to jumping around and shooting people.
11:29 rafl I'd like to see utils/src_to_blib.pl changed to not to copy files you won't need at runtime into blib{,6} (for example gen_prelude). Can anyone do that change or tell me a heuristic to decide which files to copy and which not?
11:29 svnbot6 r5256, rafl++ | * debian/control: better Description for pugs-doc
11:29 svnbot6 r5256, rafl++ | * debian/rules: Install some examples with pugs-doc
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11:33 QtPlatypus Can anyone tell me why a slurpy array will not slurp up pairs?
11:37 pdcawley Aren't they taken to be part of the slurpy hash?
11:39 QtPlatypus ?eval sub test(*@_) { join "foo",@_};test("a" => "b","c" => "d");
11:39 evalbot6 ''
11:39 QtPlatypus They should be but appren'y don't.
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11:53 Arathorn *.bbc.co.uk is comically dead
11:53 Arathorn but on the plus side, we get the olympics. hoorah
11:58 * masak is happy because the proposed law on European patents was not accepted
11:59 masak software patents somehow don't seem like a good idea to me
11:59 * QtPlatypus looks supprized "Wow!  I thought that was one we had lost."
12:00 * Nattfodd happily hands out the olympics to Arathorn
12:03 * Arathorn happily watches his council tax quadruple
12:04 masak QtPlatypus: nope, they really do listen over there in Brussels
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12:05 masak plus, I think they were overwhelmed by the interest in the issue on the part of programmers in Europe
12:06 osfameron also, it helped that they were pissed off about the Commission
12:06 osfameron trying to steamroller the bill through.
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12:08 masak osfameron: yeah, that wasn't very nice
12:10 Arathorn hopefully it won't end up with a comedy rush-the-bill-through-at-3am Patriot Act stylee
12:13 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
12:13 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 9 hours 27 minutes 56 seconds ago
12:14 Limbic_Region oh - so he did come back to the land of the living
12:18 masak yep, he's underclocked though
12:19 masak sounds like a contradiction in terms: "underclocked autrijus"
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12:32 QtPlatypus masak: Can you point me at a sight about its falure?
12:34 masak sure
12:35 masak http://www.forbes.com/work/feed​s/ap/2005/07/06/ap2124966.html
12:35 QtPlatypus Thanks, it wasn't on groklaw or slashdot.
12:36 QtPlatypus A 648-14 vote.  Damn that wasn't just rejected, it was massively rejected.
12:38 Nattfodd QtPlatypus: yes, the bad guys voted like us because they were fearing too many "amendments"
12:38 Nattfodd (don't know the english word)
12:40 QtPlatypus Thats the correct english word
12:42 * masak kept calling the MEPs yesterday to make sure they understood the gravity of the situation
12:42 masak they did
12:50 * geoffb cheers
12:50 geoffb That's damn good news
12:51 * geoffb has practically gone into "Hear No Evil" mode with all the bad news of late
12:51 geoffb It's refreshing to get a tidbit of good news for once.
12:51 Nattfodd geoffb: with olympics on London, that makes two good news on the same day
12:52 Nattfodd double cheers
12:52 geoffb :-)
12:52 castaway that one depends on your definite of "good" :)
12:52 masak also on your definition of "news"
12:52 Nattfodd castaway: I'm french :p
12:53 geoffb My definition of good olympics news is "NIMBY" -- my wife suffered through that when the olympics were in Atlanta, and it apparently sucked
12:54 castaway heh, Net
12:54 castaway oops Nattfodd
12:54 castaway NIMBY?
12:54 theorbtwo Not In My Back Yard.
12:54 castaway ah
12:54 geoffb Not In My BackYard
12:54 pdcawley NIMBY is Not In My Back Yard
12:54 geoffb wheee, great minds typing alike
12:54 geoffb (or near 'nuff)
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12:55 * theorbtwo isn't sure he qualifies as a great mind.
12:55 * castaway ponders if Geoff is a brit
12:55 geoffb You're here, aren't you?
12:56 * castaway thwaps theorbtwo
12:56 geoffb castaway, I'm named after Chaucer, and my blood is about as Brit as it comes (English, Scottish, Welsh, and a bit of Dutch), but I'm umpteenth-generation American
12:56 castaway durnit :)
12:56 geoffb castaway, ?
12:56 * kungfuftr freaks out at the amount of organisational stuff he's been handed at $work
12:56 castaway kungfuftr: I hope thats not indirectly my fault :)
12:56 QtPlatypus geoffb: I liked it when the olympics where in sydney.
12:57 castaway geoffb: ooch, my radar failing again, somehow it sounded like it
12:57 castaway .oO( "sounded" -> "read" - whatever)
12:57 kungfuftr castaway: heh, i blame the boss... but yeah... bigger team means more organisational stuff
12:57 kungfuftr *sob*
12:57 pdcawley I think Atlanta's held up as the byword in crap olympics isn't it?
12:57 pdcawley Sort of rewrote the "What not to do" playbook.
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12:57 geoffb castaway, ah!  *chuckle*
12:57 * castaway hugs kungfuftr
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12:58 geoffb pdcawley, wouldn't doubt it.
12:58 * kungfuftr notes to give castaway lots of work when she arrives
12:59 castaway eep!
12:59 * castaway smuggles theorbtwo in and gives him half ,)
13:00 geoffb My experience with Atlanta is limited, but the only thing I know of that it has going for it is a strong alternative sexuality community -- which you just gotta applaud in the middle of the US deep south.  That takes guts.
13:00 castaway Atlanta++
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13:08 masak karma Atlanta
13:08 jabbot masak: Atlanta has neutral karma
13:08 masak Atlanta++
13:09 rafl karma rafl
13:09 jabbot rafl: rafl  has neutral karma
13:11 geoffb karma Atlanta
13:11 jabbot geoffb: Atlanta has neutral karma
13:11 geoffb hmmm, jabbot karma seems fu
13:11 geoffb Does perlbot watch it?
13:11 geoffb perlbot, karma Atlanta
13:11 perlbot Karma for Atlanta: 2
13:11 jabbot geoffb: Atlanta has neutral karma
13:12 geoffb perlbot, karma rafl
13:12 perlbot Karma for rafl: 25
13:12 jabbot geoffb: rafl has neutral karma
13:12 geoffb jabbot needs to learn to ignore things specifically aimed at another bot . . . .
13:13 QtPlatypus perlbot, karma qtplatypus
13:13 perlbot Karma for qtplatypus: 12
13:13 jabbot QtPlatypus: qtplatypus has neutral karma
13:13 masak jabbot, specifically ignore things aimed for other bots
13:13 jabbot masak: Tell me more about that.
13:13 masak :)
13:14 masak jabbot, what i mean is that when i'm talking to other bots, i don't want you to interrupt us
13:14 jabbot masak: 了解
13:14 * masak laughs
13:15 * QtPlatypus blinks
13:19 theorbtwo jabbot, what?
13:19 jabbot theorbtwo: what is it
13:19 theorbtwo jabbot, it's nothing.
13:19 jabbot theorbtwo: Tell me more about that.
13:19 osfameron jabbot does Eliza?
13:20 masak jabbot, that goes for others as well. it is not considered good manners to speak when others are conversing
13:20 jabbot masak: hmm
13:20 masak jabbot, think about it
13:20 jabbot masak: That is interesting. Please continue.
13:20 masak jabbot, i just want you to respect when others are talking
13:20 jabbot masak: We were discussing you -- not me.
13:20 masak we were?
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13:20 geoffb If we hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychatrist mode, I wonder if jabbot would learn anything
13:21 masak :)
13:21 geoffb Oh, those last couple of jabbot responses are pretty much right out of the Eliza dict
13:21 * castaway nudges theorbtwo (why is the IM window dead?)
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14:30 Arathorn phew
14:30 * Arathorn can breathe again
14:31 pdcawley why do you think if you hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychiatris mode, you wonder if jabbot would learn anything?
14:35 masak pdcawley: is why do you think if I hooked jabbot up to emacs' psychiatris mode, I wonder if jabbot would learn anything why you have come here?
14:35 Arathorn tell me more about that
14:36 masak we were discussing you -- not me
14:36 pdcawley masak: I'm asking the questions.
14:36 * pdcawley wonders if it'd be possible to write a nicecop/nastycop version of Eliza.
14:36 masak pdcawlay: why do you think you're asking the questions?
14:38 masak pdcawley: there's always parry, the psychiatric patient bot
14:39 Arathorn fisher king ref?
14:40 masak http://socialfiction.org/scrabble/BOTWRITER.html
14:40 masak http://www.stanford.edu/group​/SHR/4-2/text/dialogues.html
14:44 Arathorn looks like it is, then
14:44 * Arathorn needs to watch that again
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14:46 * eric256 almost got on hear to ask if a bug involving .= had already been reported.....then i woke up and corrected the code to ~=.....i have a feeling that one is going to bite me a few more times ;)
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14:58 * Limbic_Region notes that the build of Pugs speeded up dramatically when he closed his mail application and his browser and wonders how much memory the thing actually consumes
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15:36 geoffb Limbic_Region, a LOT.  Like, a very large amount.  On my box, about 135 MB for UNoptimized, and I'm not sure optimized will even finish if I have firefox running at the same time
15:37 geoffb (that's Debian on i386)
15:44 geoffb You know, come to think of it, that was just the size of the ghc and ld processes individually, I've never taken the time to try to determine the maximum memory footprint of make and all its children combined
15:44 geoffb hmmm . . . anyone know an easy way to do that?
15:45 * integral has only ever watches with top
15:46 integral ghc and gcc (each) reached about 750MB when optimising
15:46 sili dude
15:46 sili that's
15:46 sili crazy
15:46 integral takes about 120 minutes too
15:47 sili fo sheezy
15:57 eric256 whats the news on getting prelude.pm pre compiled?
15:59 gaal|work eric. backlog around ten hours ago. summary: not yet.
15:59 svnbot6 r5257, iblech++ | * Usual svn properties added to new files in ext/, docs/, and debian/.
15:59 svnbot6 r5257, iblech++ | * debian/control -- s:g/Perl6/Perl 6/ (consistency with README, Perl6::Pugs,
15:59 svnbot6 r5257, iblech++ |   and other files).
16:03 eric256 hehe. okay. just curious. i was trying to catch up on what i've missed, any new wow factor with OO? like modifying existing classes, builtins not clobbering user defines etc?
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16:05 svnbot6 r5258, iblech++ | debian/changelog -- Fixed a datestamp line to conform to parsechangelog's
16:05 svnbot6 r5258, iblech++ | regular expression.
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17:59 svnbot6 r5259, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : moved much of what was in Perl6::MetaModel to Perl6::Class; so now classes are constructed by Perl6::Class and Perl6::MetaModel is just a thin wrapper around the them to make using it easier;
18:06 wolverian (european union parliament)++
18:08 lightstep has joined #perl6
18:14 Aankhen`` ([accidentally] clueful politicians)++
18:17 spinclad now if only we can do the same in the US.  seems like a tougher corporocracy to affect, though.
18:19 revdiablo (using good news as an opportunity to bitch about bad news)--
18:19 Aankhen`` Yeesh... people complain about 31 degrees?
18:19 Aankhen`` It's 45 degrees here in India!
18:19 Aankhen`` And Orissa is 55 degrees!
18:19 pdcawley coroporocracy? What's wrong with Oligarchy?
18:20 wolverian corporacy is the term I've seen, besides oligarchy
18:21 wolverian or corporatism
18:21 gaal got a link to the eu story?
18:21 wolverian it is a more specific name than oligarchy
18:21 Aankhen`` [21:38:03] -lilo- [Global Notice] Whoops, one more try.... the last story was months old, this is the current one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4655955.stm
18:21 wolverian gaal: http://www.theregister.co.u​k/2005/07/06/eu_bins_swpat/
18:21 Aankhen`` (gaal)
18:23 wolverian oh, and also corporatocracy
18:23 wolverian but that's getting just hard to type
18:23 vcv- has joined #perl6
18:23 gaal corpiratocracy :)
18:23 revdiablo corporobotocraticologism
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18:26 spinclad i wouldn't say bitch about bad news, rather whine about bad conditions.  me--
18:26 wolverian oxymoron: corporational
18:29 Maddingue has joined #perl6
18:31 spinclad (amazing vote)++ (issue not coming back for a good while)++
18:34 lightstep all you hippies want to do is stop innovation
18:35 * lightstep is a fat, white bastard today
18:35 spinclad lightstep has it backwards
18:35 Aankhen`` perlbot karma me
18:35 perlbot Karma for me: -4
18:36 lightstep perlbot karma me
18:36 perlbot Karma for me: -4
18:36 lightstep perlbot karma lightstep
18:36 perlbot Karma for lightstep: 8
18:36 lightstep perlbot karma c
18:36 perlbot Karma for c: 635
18:36 Khisanth spinclad: he is a white, fat bastard?
18:36 Aankhen`` perlbot karma Aankhen
18:36 perlbot Karma for Aankhen: 159
18:36 Aankhen`` perlbot karma Aankhen``
18:36 perlbot Karma for Aankhen``: 18
18:36 Aankhen`` perlbot top 10 karma
18:36 perlbot The top 10 karma entries: autrijus: 1062, iblech: 778, C: 635, stevan: 167, Aankhen: 159, mugwump: 131, gaal: 129, nothingmuch: 116, putter: 115, chromatic: 73
18:36 Aankhen`` Wah.
18:36 lightstep Khisanth, i flipped the name of the book
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19:22 svnbot6 r5260, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - Perl6::Object now has the proper bless -> CREATE -> BUILDALL -> BUILD progression of events for instance creation; this also means that we have moved instance creation out of the Metaclass and it now the responsibility of the base Object class;
19:29 wolverian stevan++ # wow
19:29 svnbot6 r5261, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - cleaned up a test to use $class.bless() to make sure that works (as that is how it is supposed to work); Perl6::Object really needs to be self hosting soon :P
19:29 wolverian I'm going to have to take a look at that
19:29 wolverian sweet progress :)
19:30 stevan wolverian: its in Perl5 right now
19:30 stevan it will be the runtime support for the PIL -> Perl5 compiler luqui and nothingmuch are working on
19:31 wolverian what does the compiler compile down to?
19:31 wolverian perl5?
19:31 stevan yup
19:31 stevan it parses PIL then emits Perl5 code
19:31 wolverian how hard would it be to use the metamodel to output PIR?
19:31 wolverian (or PASM)
19:32 wolverian (or PAST, or whatever :)
19:32 stevan the metamodel wont do that
19:32 wolverian well, okay - what I meant is that is it pluggable enough to be used in such a manner?
19:32 wolverian output agnostic if you will
19:32 stevan the PIL parser can emit PIR/PASM/whatever just by building the emitter
19:32 wolverian right
19:32 stevan the metamodel is the runtime object support
19:32 wolverian and the metamodel has nothing to do with that?
19:32 stevan not really
19:33 wolverian right, so we need to compile it down to PIR too? :)
19:33 wolverian (ponie..)
19:33 wolverian (if I want to use it to compile down to parrot, that is)
19:33 stevan ideally Parrot will support most of it already, so we wont have to do as much as we are doing in Perl5
19:33 wolverian I guess ,yeah
19:33 wolverian s/ ,/, /
19:33 stevan but if you want to compile perl6 to another language (Perl5, javascript, etc) you will need to implement the metamodel there
19:34 wolverian unless that language runs on aprrot
19:34 wolverian s,ap,pa, # argh
19:34 stevan yes
19:34 wolverian is the PIL parser being written?
19:35 stevan yes, by luqui (Luke Palmer) and nothingmuch
19:35 stevan or at least it *was* being written at the hackathon
19:35 wolverian is it in source control?
19:35 wolverian I mean, public
19:35 stevan should be in the Pugs repo
19:35 wolverian ah, thanks
19:35 stevan they were writting it in Perl6
19:36 wolverian hmm. using pugs's perl5 interface to use the metamodel?
19:36 wolverian or is that another component entirely?
19:36 wolverian (I mean, the component that uses the metamodel..)
19:36 wolverian do you ever get a headache over things like this?
19:37 stevan LOL
19:37 stevan all the time
19:37 wolverian heh.
19:37 wolverian I think a schematic of the components and their relations would be nice
19:37 wolverian if such a plan exists yet
19:38 stevan when PIL is compiled to Perl5, it is compiled into code which uses the Perl6::MetaModel
19:38 wolverian ah, right.
19:38 wolverian is the actual compiler interlinked with the parser, or are they completely separate+
19:38 wolverian s,+,?,
19:38 stevan lib/P5-PIL-Run/ actually has some early versions of the base types (Array, Hash, Scalar)
19:39 stevan I am not sure how the PIL parser/compiler works, I didnt write it :)
19:39 wolverian right, I'd have to look at it myself :)
19:39 wolverian I'll do that later tonight
19:40 wolverian I'll try if this copy protection this game comes with will block me from playing it on this computer too now
19:40 stevan ext/Perl-Compiler is where the PIL stuff is
19:40 wolverian (I bought the game)
19:40 wolverian thanks!
19:41 stevan your welcome :)
19:45 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::?CLASS $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
19:45 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
19:45 Aankhen`` When did that break?
19:46 gaal do you mean ./ref?
19:46 Aankhen`` No, I mean ::?CLASS.
19:46 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } Foo.new.bar
19:46 evalbot6 ::Str
19:46 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { ./ref } } Foo.new.bar
19:46 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
19:46 Aankhen`` O_O
19:46 gaal oops :)
19:47 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { ./ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar
19:47 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
19:47 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo.bar
19:47 evalbot6 ::Str
19:47 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar () { .ref } } my $foo = Foo.new(10); $foo.bar
19:47 evalbot6 Error: Can't use positionals in default new constructor
19:47 Aankhen`` Riiight...
19:51 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:54 Aankhen`` gaal >> Do you have enough Haskell know-how to reapply 4496? I think it got lost somewhere...
19:55 gaal 4496....? *looks*
19:56 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::("?CLASS $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
19:56 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
19:56 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::("?CLASS") $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
19:56 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
19:56 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (("::?CLASS") $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
19:56 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "(" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
19:57 gaal when/why was  it reverted?
19:58 Aankhen`` I dunno.
19:59 gaal hmm, i see some of it at least has been moved to Pugs.Eval.Var
19:59 gaal (the getMagical stuff)
20:01 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
20:01 gaal the Parser hunk, it seems to have been either refactored or lost
20:02 gaal but i don't really understand what it does.
20:02 gaal iblech about?
20:02 Aankh|Clone Apparently not. :-(
20:02 Aankh|Clone Ah well, I gotta go sleep.
20:02 Aankh|Clone G'night.
20:02 Aankh|Clone has quit IRC (Client Quit)
20:02 gaal night.
20:11 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:16 stevan hey gaal
20:16 gaal heya
20:16 stevan hows life?
20:16 gaal harmonic.
20:16 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:16 stevan you are clearly not in jail :)
20:16 stevan which is a good thing
20:16 gaal which is to say, up and down :)
20:17 gaal i am indeed not in jail.
20:17 svnbot6 r5262, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - added support for DESTROY submethods as well as DESTROYALL support in Perl6::Object; this is also tested in a new test file t/03_DESTORY.t to confirm it works in the correct order
20:17 gaal and you, my friend, are not stoppable :)
20:17 stevan actually the $work T1 is down
20:18 stevan once it comes back up, ... I will be stopped :)
20:18 gaal dos to increase productivity :)
20:18 stevan LOL
20:18 stevan shhhh
20:18 stevan dont tell anyone :P
20:19 * stevan need to remember to hide those wire cutters in case the $boss comes around snooping
20:20 gaal T1, that used to be insanely fast
20:20 stevan yeah, I brought one of the servers home, so the $client can still access it
20:20 gaal well it's still not bad if it's symmetric
20:21 stevan and the $client was like "wow, did you guys get an upgrade"
20:21 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
20:21 stevan cause my cable modem is better then the T1 basically :P
20:21 kolibrie but you didn't bring home the dev box, huh? :)
20:21 gaal stupid local economy permits ADSL to be very A. 1:8 up/down
20:21 stevan kolibrie: nope :)
20:21 gaal or worse actually
20:22 stevan gaal: ouch
20:22 stevan kolibrie: the dev box has a number of projects on it, so it would not have been okay to take home
20:22 wolverian gaal: I think the ADSL spec doesn't go any higher than that.
20:23 kolibrie stevan: just don't get into a chip dilemna
20:23 gaal i have 1.5m down and 96k up.... or is it 128 now?
20:24 gaal i feel i ought to know such things
20:24 gaal but apparently at the end of long days i forget
20:24 stevan kolibrie: not to worry, we are small and only engage in legal activities :)
20:25 kolibrie :)
20:26 stevan I gave up working for sleazy bosses when I left advertising :)
20:26 gaal loop { advertising-- }
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20:27 stevan gaal++ # :)
20:27 kolibrie gaal: forever...
20:28 wolverian gaal: ew, that is a horrible upload
20:28 gaal best you can get for commodity prices around here.
20:28 wolverian gaal: the ratio here is 2:1 generally, until 1mb upload over which it doesn't go (so I have 8mb down, 1mb up)
20:28 wolverian gaal: I feel your pain. :/
20:28 wolverian (1mb upload sucks too, though.)
20:29 * stevan can't wait till let finish laying the fiber-to-the-house up here
20:29 wolverian (now they're even selling ADSL2 connections with 24mb down and still 1mb up. what the hell?)
20:29 gaal however, the service is reliable enough and i got a static ip for free.
20:29 autarch I have 7 down, 896 up
20:29 wolverian gaal: do you live in sweden? :)
20:29 gaal nope
20:29 autarch it's only $80/month with 8 static ips (5 usable)
20:29 wolverian oh, right, israel? I always forget these things
20:29 wolverian (countries, pff. who cares?)
20:29 gaal that's all right, it isn't like i know where you live :-p
20:30 autarch well, _some_ people care way way too much
20:30 wolverian autarch: that's a nice bunch of ips :) I only get five.
20:30 wolverian autarch: what does '5 usable' mean though?
20:30 gaal subnet?
20:30 osfameron_ has joined #perl6
20:30 autarch it means I have to allocate one for broadcast, one for network address, and one for the gateway
20:30 gaal wow, that's a tight netmask
20:30 autarch so I have 5 left for whatever
20:30 wolverian ah, right
20:30 autarch it's pretty cool to be able to have my own little subnet though
20:30 gaal # /29? :)
20:30 autarch I dunno, I always type 255.255.255.248
20:30 autarch I can't do the math implied by /XX
20:31 autarch too hard
20:31 gaal three bits off 32
20:31 autarch I'm a fucking music major!
20:31 gaal lol
20:31 autarch I can count to like, 12
20:31 gaal so you know integer math intuitively
20:31 gaal and hey, what'll i say
20:31 autarch no, music requires fractions
20:31 autarch but not real numbers
20:31 autarch I mean, you have to be able to figure out 5/3 and stuff like that if you want to be a real badass
20:32 gaal rhythm, or harmony?
20:32 autarch rhythm
20:32 autarch polyrhythms, to be exact
20:32 gaal scary
20:32 gaal i mean, great, but scary
20:32 * gaal puts on foxtrot
20:33 gaal (9/8)
20:34 gaal there's a cool bill bruford quote... let's see
20:34 autarch foxtrot isn't 9/8, is it?
20:34 gaal "[T]he gig I have as the drummer in King Crimson is one of the few gigs in rock ‘n’ roll where it’s even  r e m o t e l y  possible to play anything in 17/16 and stay in a decent hotel."
20:35 gaal autrarch, the bit called "apocalypse in 9/8" is :)
20:35 autarch is this King Crimson?
20:35 gaal Genesis
20:35 osfa has joined #perl6
20:35 autarch ah, they don't count
20:36 autarch early Genesis, I assume
20:36 gaal the quote was from king crimson's drummer though
20:36 gaal yes.
20:37 autarch normally foxtrots are in 4/4, as are the vast majority of dance music (except waltzes)
20:37 autarch I should say _modern_ dance music
20:37 gaal most western music is 4/4 no?
20:38 autarch yes
20:38 autarch modern western music
20:38 gaal pictures from an exhibition is all wandery and changes every two bars
20:38 osfa even most indian music is, surely?
20:38 autarch no
20:38 osfa iirc it's in "teental" which is 16 beats, which sounds about 4/4
20:38 autarch A heck of a lot of classical Indian music is in 17
20:38 gaal dave brubeck liked to play around
20:38 autarch or is it 19?
20:38 autarch this is not my area of expertise ;)
20:39 osfa oh, I did a whole 6 lessons on sitar
20:39 osfa so I'm highly qualified to talk about it :-)
20:39 autarch heh
20:39 gaal i have to study this some. i never told the difference beterrn 4/4 and 8/8
20:39 autarch gaal: I've never seen anything actually written as 8/8
20:39 gaal is it just when the beat comes?
20:40 autarch err
20:40 gaal okay, then 2/2
20:40 Arathorn bartok did a bunch of 8/8 stuff
20:40 gaal or 3/4 vs 6/8
20:40 autarch well, the difference is that in one there's 2 beats per bar, and in the other there's 4
20:40 Arathorn in order to mix gracefully with 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 etc.
20:40 autarch 6/8 is generally 2 beats per bar
20:40 autarch 2 beats of triplets
20:40 autarch Arathorn: ah, good point
20:40 autarch I bet I even have some scores of his with 8/8 times
20:40 gaal 3/8? what's that like?
20:41 autarch one beat per bar, usually
20:41 autarch but it really depends on the context
20:41 autarch see, with bartok it's kind of complicated
20:41 Arathorn some of his violin duets have the first violin in 3/8 and the 2nd in 5/8 at the same time :)
20:41 autarch heh
20:41 autarch the best is George Crumb scores.  Lots of 13/64 and stuff like that
20:41 gaal man, that's like befunge in music.
20:41 Arathorn (and not just to be obtuse - the weighting of the individual bars does actually make sense)
20:42 nnunley has joined #perl6
20:42 gaal s/befunge/malbogle/
20:42 autarch not really
20:42 Arathorn and the beat itself is in sync - just not the, uh, headers
20:42 autarch you have to see it
20:42 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:42 autarch if you come over I'll show you ;)
20:43 gaal i think i'm fine under this table :)
20:43 Arathorn whilst we're utterly offtopic, i don't suppose anyone is an iptables god?
20:43 autarch someone probably is, but not me
20:44 vcv- has joined #perl6
20:44 gaal autarch, you're... west coast?
20:45 autarch Minneapolis
20:46 gaal north coast! :-)
20:46 autarch heh
20:46 autarch I live right near Lake Calhoun ;)
20:46 Arathorn http://wc.pima.edu/~lsolomon/diss7.htm is a rather fun paper analysing the, uh, geometry of bartok's music, fwiw
20:47 cwest seen autarch
20:47 jabbot cwest: autarch was seen 31 seconds ago
20:47 autarch The last paper I ever wrote in grad school was an analysis of a Bartok string quartet
20:47 cwest er...
20:47 cwest seen autrijus
20:47 jabbot cwest: autrijus was seen 18 hours 1 minutes 10 seconds ago
20:47 autarch heh
20:47 cwest but hi, nonetheless :-)
20:47 autarch hi
20:49 gaal wow, those signatures look right out of metamagical themas
20:49 gaal i like how the G clefts were appropriated into Bs :)
20:50 cwest So there are some very dicey bits to consider when writing a javascript interpreter to run on Perl 5/6
20:50 gaal autograph signatures that is, not musical ones
20:50 cwest Basically JavaScript is too primitive and some guesses have to be made about what to do for certain situations.
20:50 stevan cwest: Javascript on Perl5?!?!?!
20:50 stevan whatever for??
20:50 cwest Because I can?
20:51 stevan :) good enough reason
20:51 cwest Because targetting Perl 5 is easier than Perl 6, at least right now.
20:51 cwest For me, just because. :-)
20:51 cwest I was curious, though, if Parse::RecDescent was stable under the use p5: style of things. ;-)
20:51 stevan so is it pure perl? or are you linking in a C lib?
20:52 cwest No, I'll just write it. JS is an easy language.
20:52 stevan cwest: Pugs is all about instability :)
20:52 cwest hee
20:52 gaal p:rd is slow :(
20:52 stevan is this for JSAN? or something else?
20:52 cwest gaal: Throw One Away
20:52 cdpruden has joined #perl6
20:52 cwest stevan: It's kind of for jsan.
20:52 stevan gaal: P:RD + Pugs would be nasty
20:52 gaal cwest++ # indeed
20:52 cwest Here's my master plan.
20:53 cwest I want to get spidermonkey out of mozilla, replace it with parrot.
20:53 cwest Then we've got client side perl scripting, the holy grail.
20:53 stevan nice
20:53 cwest All I have to do is write a rock solid javascript interpreter.
20:53 autarch I think the only thing keeping me from going crazy at $work is Judy and Mary
20:53 cwest Then you can distribute the Perl DBI.
20:53 Khisanth just use IE!
20:53 autarch thank you, J & M
20:53 stevan I thought Mozilla already was thinking about using Parrot?
20:53 * Khisanth runs
20:53 gaal stevan,not sure p:rd under pugs will take so much of a hit, since it doesn't cross interpreter boundaries much
20:54 cwest stevan: Yeah but someone has to do the work.
20:54 stevan ah
20:54 stevan cwest: and that someone (currently) is you :)
20:54 stevan cool
20:54 cwest I want var dbh = connect DBI('dbi:SQLite:cache.db');
20:54 cwest hell I want var mime = new Email.MIME(email_string);
20:54 gaal autarch, w* are J & M?
20:55 cwest And also I want to be able to smoke test JSAN.
20:55 * stevan wants system("rm -rf *.*"); from client side JS
20:55 autarch gaal: a J-pop/rock band
20:55 robkinyon has joined #perl6
20:55 stevan cwest: actually we have been thinking about JSAN smoke testing at work
20:55 autarch it's relentlessly cheery, so it keeps me from going psycho over our shit code/processes/equipment/...
20:55 Boogie has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:55 cwest stevan: I won't be including Perl's core function into this. ;-)
20:55 stevan cwest: your no fun :P
20:56 cwest This is JavaScript. The core is tiny, everything is an object. You should be familiar with that concept. ;-)
20:56 robkinyon cwest: stevan's trying to pawn my crazy ideas off as his again. :-)
20:56 gaal interesting
20:56 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:56 stevan cwest: I was a JS hacker before a perl hacker, but my JS knowledge kind of stopped at 1.2
20:57 cwest however if you got a user to run: JSAN.use('perl:File.Path'); rmtree(...);
20:57 cwest I didn't consider that.
20:57 cwest Oh well. Not My Problem.
20:57 gaal client-side perl scripting is indeed great - but can we just make the web go away already? :)
20:57 cwest If I want a fast parser then I'll write it all with regular expressions.
20:58 cwest I can see this thing loaded with (?{{ foo($^N) }})...
20:58 cwest That'd be *wonderful*. :-/
20:58 cwest Anyway, I have to have a proof of concept by oscon, which means targetting Perl5.
20:59 cwest If people can play with it then maybe they'll get involved.
20:59 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:59 stevan cwest: what about smoke testing JSAN stuff in browsers?
20:59 cwest stevan: That's hard. How are you going to control your browsers?
21:00 cwest How are you going to get dependencies?
21:00 * stevan wonders if there is maybe a #jsan so we dont bore all the #perl6 folks
21:00 cwest irc.perl.org/#jsan actually
21:00 robkinyon don't worry about dependencies
21:00 robkinyon my bigger concern is running the browsers
21:00 cwest yeah, that's hard
21:00 stevan cwest: robkinyon and I were disucss this the other day
21:00 cwest join #jsan on irc.perl.org
21:00 robkinyon heading there right now
21:00 stevan ok, be there in a sec
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21:13 Arathorn ecmascript-on-parrot would also be very cool for the flash community, i guess
21:13 * Arathorn dreams of scripting flash in perl6
21:13 cwest I intend to make it happen. :-)
21:31 SamB has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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21:44 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:48 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
21:48 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 19 hours 2 minutes 29 seconds ago
21:50 stevan Limbic_Region: I think he is still recovering from jet-lag
21:51 Limbic_Region no worries - was just going to share my really weird Prelude.hs bug/solution
21:52 Limbic_Region I journaled it - so I would guess he will catch it
21:55 lumi_ has joined #perl6
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22:19 Limbic_Region_ is now known as Limbic_Region
22:23 fglock has joined #perl6
22:23 Limbic_Region fglock - I am still looking
22:24 Limbic_Region someone with meta commit privs mind reminding me where to assign commit bit to new member?
22:24 * Limbic_Region thought that there was an admin tab
22:24 Limbic_Region but there doesn't appear to be one
22:27 Limbic_Region oh - I see the problem
22:27 Limbic_Region I am not staying logged in
22:28 Limbic_Region probably a firewall/browser security problem
22:28 Limbic_Region be right with you fglock
22:28 midnightparadox has joined #perl6
22:28 midnightparadox when is perl6 coming
22:29 Limbic_Region it is here now
22:29 midnightparadox ??
22:29 midnightparadox how can i install it
22:30 Limbic_Region visit http://pugscode.org
22:30 lumi_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:31 Limbic_Region fglock - invite sent - welcome aboard
22:31 fglock thanks Limbic_Region
22:32 * Limbic_Region has been having bizarro issues with his firewall since the last patch he applied
22:32 Limbic_Region sorry for the wait
22:34 midnightparadox is perl6 development or stable?
22:34 obra development
22:34 PerlJam stable development
22:34 PerlJam :)
22:36 revdiablo a stable level of insanity
22:36 lumi_ has joined #perl6
22:38 Limbic_Region midnightparadox - the short answer is that perl6 isn't out yet and there is no date when it can be expected
22:38 midnightparadox 10x
22:38 Limbic_Region the long answer is much longer
22:39 Limbic_Region but it is sufficiently advanced to begin implementation which has been going on since 2005-02-01
22:41 PerlJam has quit IRC ("*poof*")
22:42 midnightparadox is there relation between Topaz and perl6
22:42 autarch sure, chip ;)
22:43 midnightparadox some say the projects will unite?
22:46 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
22:46 Arathorn i thought topaz was an ex-parrot
22:46 Arathorn so to speak
22:51 Limbic_Region midnightparadox - how much do you know about Topaz?
22:51 lumi_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:51 midnightparadox very very few
22:52 midnightparadox i am a perl beginner
22:52 midnightparadox just wondered
22:52 Limbic_Region ok - well then there isn't much sense in explaining the relationship
22:52 midnightparadox ok
22:52 Limbic_Region Topaz was a fun project of re-writing perl in C++ by Chip
22:52 Limbic_Region he abandoned it got a lot of lessons learned
22:52 autarch topaz is no longer really a live thing, AFAIK
22:52 autarch long dead
22:53 Limbic_Region chip is however the newly appointent architect lead on parrot
22:53 midnightparadox so then
22:53 Limbic_Region which will be the virtual machine that runs p6
22:53 midnightparadox any ide suggestion for perl
22:53 Limbic_Region see http://www.parrotcode.org http://www.pugscode.org http://www.poniecode.org for more info
22:54 Limbic_Region midnightparadox - IDEs for perl are hard
22:54 Limbic_Region it is said that only perl can parse perl
22:54 Limbic_Region but
22:54 Limbic_Region there is hope
22:54 midnightparadox just coloring the code is enough
22:54 Limbic_Region then you can use vim
22:54 Limbic_Region or emacs
22:54 Limbic_Region http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/09/ppi.html
22:55 Limbic_Region PPI will make p5 IDEs that work almost all the time a real possibility
22:55 osfa though ppi doesn't help you to know, for example
22:55 osfa my $x = $object->method->othermethod;
22:56 osfa is.  e.g. you won't get intellisense object tree walking with it
22:57 fglock has quit IRC ("I am going away")
23:00 ImustDIE quick syntax question... how do you do references in perl6?
23:01 ImustDIE and are they always $ like they used to be or would you use @/% for arrays/hashes?
23:01 gaal i don't think taking a ref has changed.
23:01 gaal though there are more ways to do it now.
23:02 ImustDIE k
23:02 Limbic_Region ImustDIE - the big change isn't in getting a reference but in dereferencing
23:02 Limbic_Region which will be automatic
23:02 ImustDIE ah
23:02 Limbic_Region except when it isn't
23:02 ImustDIE will?
23:03 Limbic_Region and when it isn't - you will use . instead of ->
23:03 gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr.perl
23:03 evalbot6 '{(\'1\' => 2)}'
23:03 Limbic_Region so - $hashref<foo> works
23:03 gaal (the .perl shouldn't have been there)
23:03 Limbic_Region but you can explicitly say $hashref.<foo> if you want too
23:03 ImustDIE what do you mean will though? does pugs not automatically deref yet?
23:03 gaal it does.
23:04 Limbic_Region ImustDIE - pugs does when it is supposed to
23:04 gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; say $hr<1>
23:04 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
23:04 Limbic_Region the cases where it doesn't are still fuzzy
23:04 gaal my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr<1>
23:04 ImustDIE k
23:04 Limbic_Region ie edge cases are still being worked out
23:04 gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; say $hr<1>
23:04 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
23:04 gaal grrr!
23:04 ImustDIE alright time to go play with some code ;-) thanks for the help
23:04 gaal ?eval my %h = 1 => 2; my $hr = %h; $hr<1>
23:04 evalbot6 \2
23:04 gaal thank you, fingers!
23:06 Limbic_Region it looks like leo has made significant progress on calling convention changes to parrot but commited it in a new branch
23:06 Limbic_Region good news
23:06 mugwump ?eval safe_say "hello"
23:06 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&safe_say"
23:07 mugwump ?eval say_safe "hello"
23:07 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say_safe"
23:08 midnightparadox has left "May The Source Be With You"
23:08 ImustDIE oh got one more Q, then I promise I'll leave you alone for a while.... how do you add a method to an existing class?
23:08 Limbic_Region ?eval say 'wtf'
23:08 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&say"
23:08 ImustDIE if there's a manual i should be finding this stuff in just yell at me to read it but i havent been able to find much
23:10 Limbic_Region ImustDIE - have you got your bible handy?
23:10 Limbic_Region Perl6::Bible that is
23:10 ImustDIE i was browsing it on cpan, is there an easy way to search it?
23:10 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:11 ImustDIE ah i found the section on objects
23:13 vcv- has joined #perl6
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23:17 Limbic_Region ImustDIE - getting the table of contents is easy
23:17 Limbic_Region which gives a summary of what each chapter is
23:17 Limbic_Region in fact, it follows the "Programming Perl" (also known as the Camel Book)
23:17 Limbic_Region doing a keyword search isn't quite as easy
23:18 Limbic_Region if you have a *nix like environment you can grep the source easy enough though
23:19 ImustDIE yeah, my fault, i just completely missed the table of contents and was blindly poking around
23:19 Arathorn i really wish that S29 was more tied down
23:19 mugwump Arathorn: so tie it down!
23:20 Arathorn i really don't feel qualified :/
23:20 Limbic_Region well - let someone more qualified bitch slap you when you screw up
23:20 Arathorn and moreover surely it should be architected by a single person rather than wiki-flinging-stylee?
23:20 Limbic_Region but until then - drive on
23:20 Limbic_Region no Arathon
23:20 Limbic_Region err - Arathorn even
23:20 Limbic_Region are you on the p6.language list
23:20 scw has joined #perl6
23:20 Limbic_Region I bitched about this very thing not too long ago
23:21 Arathorn i lurk there
23:21 Limbic_Region the design documents need to be opened up to the general public for the purposes of expedition
23:21 Arathorn i agree wholeheartedly with the wiki-anarchic development for implementation - but not design
23:21 Limbic_Region well - the design docs are under revision control
23:21 Arathorn where a million monkeys (especially ones as low down the evolutionary ladder as I) aren't necessarily going to manage to write Hamlet :/
23:21 Limbic_Region anyone can submit patches
23:21 Limbic_Region but commits are restricted to @larry
23:22 Limbic_Region well - specifically pmichaud since he volunteered to be moderator
23:22 * Limbic_Region tries to find the thread on google groups
23:22 * Arathorn nods
23:22 revdiablo Arathorn: well, the thing is, a lot of discussion goes on on p6l, but doesn't get documented
23:23 revdiablo Arathorn: so if those million monkeys were following p6l, and submitting patches according to what they saw discussed... it would probably be helpful
23:24 Arathorn well, if it's a matter of trying to document the current state of banter on p6l, that's obviously a different matter from just chucking in your personal opinion of what your favourite function prototypes should look like
23:24 revdiablo Arathorn: I don't think anyone is suggesting the latter (at least I hope not)
23:24 * Arathorn nods.
23:26 Arathorn just a shame that there's not scope to balance the builtins-implementation in the way that Larry hath mediated the linguistics of the language itself
23:26 Limbic_Region Arathorn - here you go
23:26 Limbic_Region http://groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.pe​rl6.language/browse_thread/thread/3ac8a1047​b4608a9/e24c6a984b53aa6e?q=State+of+Design+​Doc&amp;rnum=1&amp;hl=en#e24c6a984b53aa6e
23:27 Limbic_Region that sums up my feelings on the matter as well as the process to get changes to the documents that you want
23:27 Arathorn ah, i remember reading that thread now
23:27 * Arathorn reparses
23:28 Arathorn i wonder why everyone (including me) isn't leaping in throwing patches at him, then
23:28 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
23:28 Arathorn whilst theoretically it sounds like it should work fine - in practice it doesn't seem to be 100% there...
23:28 Limbic_Region well - you see why I stopped
23:28 Limbic_Region I asked a question
23:28 Limbic_Region and instead of getting an answer
23:29 Limbic_Region the thread spun off on a tangent
23:29 Limbic_Region despite my best effort to keep it on track and not get warnocked
23:29 Limbic_Region it is hard to fill out an outline if there is no reference material other than that which is in people's heads
23:29 * Arathorn nods.
23:29 * Limbic_Region wanders off
23:31 nnunley has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
23:31 * Limbic_Region wanders back in
23:32 * nothingmuch goes to the shower
23:32 nothingmuch jet lag has fucked me up... I can't wake up till noon, can't fall asleep till 4
23:33 * Khisanth votes for performing a mind-rip on those people :)
23:33 mugwump nothingmuch: get some 5-HTP or Melatonin, take at 11pm localtime
23:33 mugwump (sleep hormone)
23:33 nothingmuch i have some japanese mushrooms which I'm trying today
23:33 mugwump or eat foods with lots of Tryptophan
23:33 nothingmuch worst case scenario - vivid dreams
23:34 mugwump japanese mushrooms?  what type?
23:34 nothingmuch one sec
23:35 Limbic_Region Melatonin isn't a sleep hormone AFAIK
23:35 Limbic_Region though it is used to "reset" jet lag
23:36 nothingmuch shitake
23:37 mugwump interesting ... might have to look that up in a Materia Medica to see how that works
23:38 Limbic_Region layman's version - it is sunlight related hormone that tells your body when it should be sleeping - taking it artificially is like a soft-reboot
23:39 clkao .win156
23:39 Limbic_Region so earlier I should have said I believe it is a sleep related hormone
23:39 mugwump sure Limbic_Region, but it usually resets the circadian rhythm within a day or two
23:40 mugwump it plays a crucial part in dreaming, too.  gets converted to DMT inside your brain (yep, you're trippin' while you sleep!)
23:40 * nothingmuch thinks he needs chronic treatment with it =)
23:40 * Limbic_Region wonders if he is alone in always knowing he is dreaming when he is dreaming
23:40 nothingmuch or more importantly, maybe reassess diet to figure out if something is blocking it
23:40 mugwump actually the best advice is to get some acupuncture from a "real" doctor (not a GP ;))
23:41 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i know for about 90% dreams
23:41 wolverian mugwump: er, are you sure about that? I know that the pineal gland produces DMT by itself, but is melatonin converted to it?
23:41 wolverian (pineal gland being the organ that produces melatonin and trace amounts of DTM)
23:41 wolverian er, DMT.
23:41 wolverian (I should sleep too. :)
23:42 mugwump well wolverian, it's a difficult area of science to be sure of truths as the live brain is hard to study chemically.  but I believe that the chemical pathway from Tryptophan -> 5-Hydroxy-tryptophan -> melatonin -> Di-Methyl-Tryptophan is demonstrated to be likely
23:43 mugwump http://www.pharmacorama.com/e​n/Sections/Serotonin_2_1.php
23:44 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - out of curiosity, to what degree do you manipulate your dreams because you know you are dreaming (on average)
23:44 nothingmuch not much
23:44 nothingmuch sometimes i have a weird sense of preknowlege of an event
23:44 nothingmuch that is, a small image or symbol
23:45 Arathorn . o O ( perl6 does lucid dreaming, film at 11 )
23:45 nothingmuch and by just thinking up an association it becomes "true" in the dream as the plot progresses
23:45 Limbic_Region hmmm
23:45 nothingmuch and I know I'm doing it
23:45 * Limbic_Region should consider joining a dream study thingy
23:45 nothingmuch but aside from that there is no real "control"
23:45 mugwump Arathorn: :)
23:45 * Limbic_Region has very unique dreams from what he can tell
23:45 nothingmuch what are they like?
23:45 Limbic_Region well - that would take quite a bit and this is #perl6 afterall
23:46 * Khisanth thinks Limbic_Region should start working on perl6 in his dreams :)
23:46 Limbic_Region but in synopsis - I know I am dreaming always and most of the time take an active concious role in them
23:46 Limbic_Region Khisanth - there's a catch-22
23:46 * Arathorn once wrote code whilst sleepwalking
23:47 Limbic_Region if I don't stop hacking/thinking seriously at least 3 hours prior to bed time - I won't be able to go to sleep at all
23:47 Limbic_Region or rather - not dream level sleep
23:47 Arathorn about 15k lines of C - all complete and utter gibberish
23:47 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_hygiene
23:47 Arathorn about 7 lines of one function, another 5 lines of another, all completely mangled together
23:48 Arathorn (i hope someone's keeping an eye on autrijus' commits over the last week or so ;D)
23:48 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i do feel like a protagonist - i do things in the dream, but it's like the real world, in the sense that shit happens to me
23:48 nothingmuch there are rare exceptions where I feel slow, or falling, or something like that
23:48 nothingmuch in a way that is usually very uncomfortable, but not much more
23:49 nothingmuch but I'm still an active me
23:49 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - the funnest dreams are when I am in a movie theatre - the dream is on the screen.  Sometimes in order to help the plot - the narrator will say "meanwhile ..." and switch to another scene happening at the same "time" but in a different place.  I fast forward through the boring parts
23:49 nothingmuch hah
23:50 mugwump That's a Stuart Wilde device, isn't it?
23:50 mugwump (the dream theatre)
23:50 nothingmuch i think the fast forward bit doesn't apply to me - my dreams are never ever boring
23:50 Limbic_Region if I don't like the movie or I am more interested in something that the director has chosen not to show - I fly into the movie and become part of it
23:51 Limbic_Region knowing that I am dreaming shocks some of the other actors though - I don't fall down and play dead when shot
23:52 Limbic_Region anyway - the movie theatre is only 1 style of dream that I have - the others are just as interesting (to me anyway)
23:52 Limbic_Region on that note - I am off to numb the mind (watch tv) so I can sleep tonight
23:52 Limbic_Region TTFN all
23:52 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")

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