Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-07

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:25 nothingmuch ooh, those mushrooms seem to be effective
00:30 dudley There's something I haven't heard in a long, long time... :-)
00:33 sapper has joined #perl6
00:34 * mugwump issues DROP ACID TAB command to dudley
00:38 * dudley becomes engrossed in the backs of his hands and feels a peculiar urge to listen to Pink Floyd...
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01:10 cdpruden so, this is neat
01:10 pasteling "cdpruden" at 68.248.3.101 pasted "calling perl5 from perl6, inside-out hash" (21 lines, 417B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11583
01:11 cdpruden unless I'm doing something wrong -- it seems that keys and values are getting switched
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01:30 cdpruden crud, never mind -- I see theres already a test for it
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02:15 autrijus greetings lambdacamels!
02:16 * autrijus is at $work and slowly recovering
02:24 f0rth_ good morning
02:24 autrijus heya
02:24 Amnesiac 'lo autarch
02:24 Amnesiac eerr autrijus :P
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03:16 nothingmuch blech
03:16 svnbot6 r5263, wolverian++ | S12.5: typo and grammar fixes
03:16 svnbot6 r5264, wolverian++ | S12.5: Further trivial fixes
03:16 * nothingmuch is simply unable to fall asleep at normal people time
03:17 * nothingmuch prepares for a fucked up day at work
03:23 nothingmuch seen luq
03:23 jabbot nothingmuch: I havn't seen luq, nothingmuch
03:23 nothingmuch seen luqui
03:23 jabbot nothingmuch: luqui was seen 3 days 1 hours 6 minutes 26 seconds ago
03:23 nothingmuch blech
03:24 Khisanth i? :)
03:24 Khisanth nothingmuch: tried exercising?
03:24 nothingmuch i do excercise
03:24 nothingmuch i ride my bicycle
03:25 nothingmuch it's not a persistent situation
03:25 nothingmuch it's just this jet lag
03:25 nothingmuch i can't fall asleep till 5 am
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03:26 nothingmuch don't IRC as root, alexe
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04:36 ImustDIE does pugs have anything similar to data::dumper?
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04:37 mugwump ?eval { 1=>2 }.perl
04:37 evalbot6 '{(\'1\' => 2)}'
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05:06 nothingmuch hola cwest
05:06 * nothingmuch is too lazy to rewrite his Kicker.xml hack
05:06 nothingmuch but the old disk is at home
05:06 nothingmuch *sob*
05:06 nothingmuch *sniff*
05:06 * nothingmuch better rewrite it as a CPAN module
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05:29 svnbot6 r5265, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - Added docs to all files; added plans to all tests; added some expections for missing of bad arguments; some other general clean-up stuff too;
05:31 gaal morning!
05:33 nothingmuch nirbubg
05:33 nothingmuch morning
05:33 * nothingmuch is upset
05:34 nothingmuch magic mushrooms did not work as expected
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05:37 gaal were they tasty?
05:38 nothingmuch no, they tasted like mushroom soup
05:38 gaal what were they supposed to do? aren't shitake mushrooms just... edible like well mushroom soup?
05:38 nothingmuch they were supposed to make me sleepy
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05:39 gaal i'm sure i've eaten them in restaurants with no this-will-make-you-sleepy warnings.
05:39 nothingmuch if you boil them in water
05:39 nothingmuch reduce 2 cups to 1, they are supposed to
05:39 nothingmuch at least so claims a friend
05:41 mugwump sure, infusions and decoctions can have different effects
05:43 gaal yeah! 2 to 1 actually keeps you up for weeks! :-P
05:43 nothingmuch gaal: no, i'm sleepy now
05:43 nothingmuch just like i've been all week
05:43 gaal eep, that sounds like the title of some spam
05:44 nothingmuch i'm fighting it with good old deprevation today
05:44 nothingmuch we'll see how that works
05:44 nothingmuch (usually it doesn't work too well for me).
05:44 nothingmuch it does sound like spam =)
05:44 gaal it usually takes me about a week to get over this kind of jet-lag
05:45 gaal and moving east is always harder for some reason.
05:45 nothingmuch here too
05:45 nothingmuch i can stretch more easily
05:45 autrijus gaal: so PCP is blocking on pugscc producing environment-ignorant code?
05:45 nothingmuch staying up is easier than falling asleep
05:45 nothingmuch hola autrijus
05:46 autrijus greetings yuval, gaal
05:46 * autrijus is finally feeling a wee bit alive
05:46 * nothingmuch is not visually accustomed to seeing 'yuval'
05:46 gaal autrijus (hi!!!), if you look at the actual code generated in PreludePC.hs, you'll see that the actual logic is missing
05:46 autrijus right, I see that
05:46 gaal like, function bodies
05:46 autrijus yup.
05:46 gaal i think otherwise it all works.
05:46 autrijus 'kay. you++
05:47 autrijus thanks for keep working on it while I'm semidead :)
05:47 svnbot6 r5266, autrijus++ | * Finish the transition from @?CHECK and @?INIT to
05:47 svnbot6 r5266, autrijus++ |   @*CHECK and @*INIT.
05:47 svnbot6 r5267, autrijus++ | * emulate this perl5 behaviour:
05:47 svnbot6 r5267, autrijus++ |     perl -e 'print CGI->VERSION' -MCGI  # works
05:47 svnbot6 r5267, autrijus++ |     perl print_cgi_version.pl -MCGI     # fails
05:47 svnbot6 r5268, autrijus++ | * fix a bogus test in return.t -- I seriously doubt the sanity
05:47 svnbot6 r5268, autrijus++ |   of eval_is()...
05:47 svnbot6 r5269, autrijus++ | * two force_todo for later
05:47 gaal LOL
05:47 autrijus oh, hw2005 got rejected. :-/ I'll present Pugs at CUFP (commercial use of functional programming) track in the same ICFP conference
05:47 gaal looks like you're alive now autrijus :)
05:47 nothingmuch rejected? wtf?
05:47 gaal ! :-(
05:47 autrijus nothingmuch: my "presentation" is subpar it seems
05:47 autrijus i.e. too dense, not much background, prose sucks
05:48 nothingmuch silliness
05:48 autrijus nah, the reviews is actually very helpful
05:48 nothingmuch too "practical"?
05:48 autrijus well, SyntaxNinja's cabal submission got two A and a B from reviewers
05:48 Amnesiac hola autrijus
05:48 autrijus but he's still rejected
05:48 autrijus so, extremely competitive it seems
05:49 nothingmuch oh well
05:49 nothingmuch better luck with CUFP.
05:49 autrijus I got accepted at CUFP already
05:49 nothingmuch huraah!
05:49 * nothingmuch does the popularity dance
05:49 gaal i like the "commercial" bit in association with Pugs.
05:50 autrijus heh indeed
05:50 nothingmuch it'll probably provide lots of reassurance
05:51 autrijus but yeah, mostly the reviewers think that the paper requires too much knowledge of the audience without enough preps into backgrounds, and hence not academic enough
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05:51 nothingmuch don't people go to haskell confs to see what's been done with the language they know, instead of learn about the language?
05:51 gaal oh, speaking of bits, can i have meta-? there were one or two people i could have added lately.
05:52 nothingmuch gaal: i'll add
05:52 nothingmuch (if I can)
05:52 gaal that makes you a metametacommitter, no?
05:52 nothingmuch well, since our metamodel is elegant enough, we don't need meta meta
05:52 autrijus right. all metacommitter can add other metacommiters
05:53 autrijus so it's indeed elegant enough
05:53 nothingmuch autrijus: any other candidates?
05:53 autrijus nothingmuch: not at the moment
05:53 * autrijus is so glad to be back to life
05:54 nothingmuch no fair =(
05:54 nothingmuch gaal: done
05:54 gaal thank you!
05:54 nothingmuch seen ingy
05:54 jabbot nothingmuch: ingy was seen 13 hours 1 minutes 16 seconds ago
05:55 gaal in a ploy to keep nothingmuch from normal life, /me announces Hackathon::TLV
05:55 nothingmuch lightstep, lumi - invited
05:56 gaal cool. 21-23 July. details to follow.
05:57 autrijus TLV?
05:57 gaal Tel-Aviv
05:57 autrijus ahh
05:59 nothingmuch gaal: on the 21 - ~18:00?
05:59 nothingmuch damn, spotlight rocks my tushy
06:00 gaal i think that's reasonable, yes
06:01 autrijus mm, I wonder what will be Hacked at the Athon
06:02 nothingmuch pizza for one
06:02 gaal i have two things i want to advance, %*SIG and consolidated tests
06:02 nothingmuch consolidated tests - nearly done
06:02 nothingmuch we need docs
06:02 gaal %*SIG i keep not getting to finish :)
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06:03 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/example.html
06:03 nothingmuch i have a very concrete todo list if anyone is volunteering for TTH work
06:03 gaal maybe port the test system to p6 then? :)
06:03 Aankhen`` TTH?
06:03 nothingmuch Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
06:03 gaal test-tap-htmlmatrix
06:04 Aankhen`` Ah.
06:04 Aankhen`` What sort of work?
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06:05 nothingmuch Aankhen``: mixin Test::TAP::Model::Visual to Test::TAP::Model::Consolidated
06:05 Aankhen`` Oh, Perl work... nah.
06:05 nothingmuch to avoid diamond inheritance crap, we need some sort of proper scheme
06:05 nothingmuch we need documentation of recent darcs repo changes
06:05 Aankhen`` I thought maybe you were talking about HTML/JS/CSS stuff.
06:05 gaal hmm, i need to get a whiteboard for the hackathon.
06:05 nothingmuch oh no, that's finished =)
06:05 Aankhen`` Congrats. :-D
06:05 nothingmuch we need a "distinguishing string" sort of concept, for models
06:05 nothingmuch inherited to files
06:06 nothingmuch so that in the consolidated listing the blank space can contain relevant data
06:06 nothingmuch and this should be guessed
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06:06 nothingmuch (platform, or other crap, from the extra field)
06:06 nothingmuch lastly we need the 'output_dir' method
06:06 nothingmuch which takes a directory
06:06 Aankhen`` Ahh, I've got a lot of Perl stuff on my plate already.
06:06 nothingmuch outputs 3 files - big summary, detail, independant file per model
06:06 nothingmuch err, N files
06:07 nothingmuch and CSS
06:07 nothingmuch trying to guess the link prefix to test files, if there is anything in the dir already
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06:09 nothingmuch Aankhen``: take a look at example.html - maybe you have something to add to the JS
06:09 nothingmuch (btw, JS is mostly optional, even in the JS full version)
06:10 vcv- has joined #perl6
06:10 nothingmuch (there is also a completely js free version available)
06:10 Aankhen`` Ah, good.
06:11 gaal nm, so does the model handle aggregate data? or is there a model for a single smoke submission and a different model for consolidated data?
06:11 Aankhen`` You should add a <noscript><p>There is also a <a href="jsfree.html">script-free version available</a>.</p></noscript>
06:12 nothingmuch Aankhen``: no, i don't know the user's URLs
06:12 Aankhen`` Hmm, that's not a good choice of words...
06:12 Aankhen`` Ah.
06:23 gaal another thing that's definitely worthy of hackage is finally a p6 getopt library
06:23 gaal more or less all of examples/ppt is blocking on that :-)
06:23 Aankhen`` Well, iblech ported GetOpts::Std, but I believe he used Perl 6, not Pugs. :-P
06:24 gaal here's a silly idea i had, tell me if i'm insane
06:24 Aankhen`` Want me to try hacking it to get it to work?
06:24 gaal since p6 has pretty strong sub signatures, we could horribly exploit them and have the option spec look like a sub signature...
06:24 gaal then eval it :)
06:25 gaal modulo some munging.
06:25 Aankhen`` O_O
06:25 * Aankhen`` votes for "insane">
06:25 gaal i know this is evil :) but it has *some* hack value, no?
06:25 Aankhen`` Yes.
06:25 gaal of course not meant for production.
06:25 Aankhen`` Suuure. :-P
06:26 nothingmuch back
06:26 Aankhen`` How about we leave that for when Perl 6 is implemented fully?
06:26 Aankhen`` BRB.
06:26 nothingmuch eh, Aankhen``: you could add a 'noscript' link in the dir outputting method
06:27 nothingmuch gaal: i like it
06:27 gaal my only problem is that when i think about opts, i keep saying "getopt long is all i need... except, well, more speccy control over validation.. and, well, automatic usage... and.. mutexes were a nice idea in getopt::declare.." etc.
06:27 Aankhen`` Heh.
06:27 nothingmuch sub flag is aliased 'f' (String $foo) { }; # invoked on --flag bar with "bar"
06:27 Aankhen`` Mutexes?
06:27 nothingmuch is that sort of what you meant?
06:27 gaal getopt::std on ther other hand is a little too little for me
06:28 gaal Aankhen``: i mean --pugs can't be used when you say --haskell, for example.
06:28 Aankhen`` Ah.
06:28 gaal in getopt::declare, you can actually *say* that in the spec
06:28 Aankhen`` Hmm.
06:29 gaal as for leaving this off for later, i think not! not having any wokring getopt is seriously putting of script hackage
06:29 Aankhen`` GetOptions(flag => sub (String $foo) { ... })
06:29 Aankhen`` How about that?
06:29 Aankhen`` "Leaving it off" == Leaving off this particular idea, not GetOpts::*...
06:29 Aankhen`` But that's moot anyway. :-P
06:29 gaal ah :)
06:30 Aankhen`` What about a hash of subs?
06:30 gaal dispatch table
06:30 Aankhen`` Indeed.
06:30 gaal for what, the spec?
06:30 gaal or the implementation?
06:30 Aankhen`` Spec.
06:30 Aankhen`` GetOptions(flag => sub (String $foo) { ... });
06:30 gaal too much code?
06:31 Aankhen`` People don't have to use it...
06:31 autrijus bbiab :)
06:31 Aankhen`` See you autrijus.
06:32 gaal nothingmuch, that's the idea, but the argument is not necessarily Str $foo
06:32 Aankhen`` They can use GetOpts::Std or ::Long if they feel it's too verbose.
06:32 Aankhen`` Er, yeah, Str $foo, not String $foo.
06:32 * Aankhen`` wonders why he never can get that right.
06:32 gaal too much Java?
06:32 Aankhen`` I've never done any. :-)
06:32 gaal c++? :)
06:33 Aankhen`` Nope. :-)
06:33 gaal CString *shudder*
06:33 Aankhen`` JS, probably.
06:33 nothingmuch i think it stuck because I tend to be verbose about my class names
06:33 nothingmuch and Junction is not Junc
06:34 Aankhen`` Well, the dispatch table idea could go in GetOpts::Signature or something similar.
06:34 nothingmuch Aankhen``: any suggestions for TTH?
06:34 Aankhen`` nothingmuch >> Not really, it looks fine to me. :-)
06:36 Aankhen`` I love the way Indians keep inventing new words.
06:36 Aankhen`` After all, who wants to be constrained by the boring "wireless"?  "Wirefree" is where it's at!
06:36 nothingmuch indians?
06:36 Aankhen`` The non-American variety. :-)
06:37 nothingmuch ah
06:37 gaal well, they'd rather have you care-free than careless.
06:37 Aankhen`` LMAO.
06:37 nothingmuch it's like autrijus's wireless thinkpad notebook
06:38 nothingmuch it's wireless in the same sense that this is: http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0006MWRNA.01-A3CDPEGSIQM61V._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg
06:38 Aankhen`` What the heck is that?
06:38 gaal heh.
06:38 gaal a 3.5kg book? :)
06:38 Aankhen`` Ah
06:38 Aankhen`` .
06:39 nothingmuch obra was at some conf, and managed to get some promo material out of the IBM booth
06:39 nothingmuch they gave away paper notebooks with 'ThinkPad' written on them, and they have no wire spiral
06:39 nothingmuch he gave one to autrijus
06:39 nothingmuch hence autrijus has a 'thinkpad wireless notebook'
06:39 Aankhen`` LMAO.
06:39 Aankhen`` s/^/ROTF/
06:40 gaal i never got the wireless pc-card nic i got with my laptop to work. i never actually took part in the wireless revolution!
06:40 nothingmuch wifi rocks so much
06:40 Aankhen`` Yep.
06:40 nothingmuch when you have places to go that provide it
06:40 gaal also, the laptop does in fact weigh 3.5 kg so i don't like lugging it about anyway
06:41 Aankhen`` (rocks for me since my sister leaves the desktop alone now :-P)
06:41 nothingmuch i also like working int he back yard
06:41 gaal back yards++
06:41 nothingmuch it works better with the new laptop, since it appears to have a better antenna
06:41 nothingmuch reception  is consistently better in every way
06:42 nothingmuch ooh, darwinports finished making me an irssi
06:42 nothingmuch switching to a proper version
06:42 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("Get MacIrssi - http://www.g1m0.se/macirssi/")
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06:44 Aankhen`` stevan++ # Perl6::MetaModel
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06:48 cwest jsan has mailing lists http://openjsan.org/community/lists.html
06:49 cwest That is all.
06:49 * cwest & # sleep
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06:50 Aankhen`` Eek.
06:50 Aankhen`` I just messed up two subscriptions. :-\
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07:00 Aankhen`` WB.
07:00 Aankhen`` Uh oh.
07:00 Aankhen`` That doesn't bode well. :-)
07:01 nothingmuch =(
07:01 nothingmuch irssi is misbehaving
07:01 Aankhen`` BRB.
07:03 Aankhen`` On second thoughts, I'mma go waste some time.
07:03 Aankhen`` UT2K4. &
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08:17 * nothingmuch needs a new quote to paste on his monitor
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09:28 Aragone hrm, some fucker's trying to blow up the tube :/
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09:29 gaal london tube?
09:29 clkao yes
09:30 osfameron best take it to MAGnet/#london.pm prob'ly
09:31 * Arathorn shifts appropriately
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10:06 svnbot6 r5270, autrijus++ | * `[1] <=> [2]` was misparsed as `[1]{'='}[2]`.  Fixed.
10:06 svnbot6 r5271, autrijus++ | * repair the (now mostly passing) namespaces.t
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10:14 nothingmuch wikipedia is so effective
10:14 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_London_transport_explosions
10:20 autrijus cwest++ # adopting the chronicle format
10:22 nothingmuch chronicle?
10:25 nothingmuch autrijus?
10:25 autrijus nothingmuch: http://use.perl.org/~cwest/journal/
10:26 nothingmuch oh, for jsan logging
10:26 autrijus yeah
10:27 * nothingmuch falls asleep waiting for qt guy to help him out
10:28 * QtPlatypus blinks.
10:30 autrijus hm, still no kwid2pod in sight?
10:30 autrijus ingy: how's life in perldoc land?
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10:44 cafe_kioto hi all
10:44 cafe_kioto i'm a newbie
10:44 cafe_kioto can i get any info about perl6
10:45 QtPlatypus Sure cafe_kioto what do you wish to know.
10:48 vcv has joined #perl6
10:48 cafe_kioto Parrot
10:49 QtPlatypus What about parrot do you wish to know?
10:49 cafe_kioto the difference with a simple parser and the advantage
10:49 autrijus cafe_kioto: http://www.parrotcode.org/ has some links. irc.perl.org #parrot is the channel. http://feather.perl6.nl/~chip/Chip_APW.pdf has some overview; leo's journal is http://use.perl.org/~leo/journal
10:49 cafe_kioto of vm
10:50 cafe_kioto ths
10:50 cafe_kioto and when it's possible to use official perl6
10:55 autrijus I have no idea :)
10:55 autrijus I wonder if anyone does.
10:56 autrijus I've covered some of these topics in http://pugscode.org/talks/yapc/slide1.html
10:56 autrijus but I need to run for dinner now. bbiab :)
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11:13 castaway Thursday. cafe_kioto
11:16 cafe_kioto castaway humour ?
11:17 masak i read that as "now"
11:21 castaway I didnt say which Thursday
11:21 castaway yes, cafe_kioto
11:23 cafe_kioto thanks :)
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11:41 nothingmuch autrijus: thanks for posting hackathon notes
11:44 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
11:49 Aankhen`` ?eval module Foo { module Bar { my $baz = "quux"; } }; $Foo::Bar::baz;
11:49 evalbot6 \undef
11:49 Aankhen`` o_O
11:50 nothingmuch oh shit
11:50 nothingmuch mmmd blah blah blah
11:50 nothingmuch "loop that accepts the first alternative."
11:50 nothingmuch that is not very good
11:50 nothingmuch are there any hooks to reorder the MMD list?
11:51 nothingmuch and maybe a way to implement type distance checking by using a catchall in the first slot?
11:51 nothingmuch or at least apply type distance dispatch using the metamodel?
11:52 Aankhen`` Where is that?
11:52 nothingmuch autrijus's hackathonn summary
11:53 cafe_kioto hei people can you think about python
11:53 nothingmuch cafe_kioto: . o O ( big snake )
11:53 nothingmuch done!
11:53 cafe_kioto yes done
11:54 nothingmuch seriously though - what did you mean?
11:54 cafe_kioto ok
11:55 cafe_kioto if i want learn one of the two language between perl and python
11:55 nothingmuch python - strict, strictifying, growing smaller
11:56 nothingmuch functional paradgims are bad
11:56 nothingmuch perl - loose
11:56 nothingmuch very loose
11:56 nothingmuch sometimes dangerous
11:56 nothingmuch depending on your experience and self discipline you might get more out of one than the other
11:56 nothingmuch the definate winner for perl is CPAN
11:56 nothingmuch python just doesn't have that
11:57 nothingmuch there are poor imitations that adamk will be happy to tell you about
11:57 cafe_kioto i'm php developer
11:57 cafe_kioto php when work without apache it's no good choice
11:58 nothingmuch php is basically perl
11:58 nothingmuch but you take away:
11:58 nothingmuch cpan
11:58 meppl has joined #perl6
11:58 nothingmuch good paradgims
11:58 nothingmuch flexibility
11:58 mugwump closures
11:58 nothingmuch polymorphism of librariries
11:58 mugwump use strict
11:58 nothingmuch (there is a different function name for every SQL "do" per DB... how yucky is that?)
11:59 nothingmuch you are psychologically bound to a certain structure - template oriented
11:59 nothingmuch did I mention no CPAN?
11:59 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
11:59 cafe_kioto pear Db
11:59 cafe_kioto sorry
11:59 nothingmuch i remember someone mentioning something like 9 sort functions
12:00 nothingmuch where perl gets by with one, which accepts an optional closure
12:00 nothingmuch i think that says a lot
12:00 cafe_kioto i'm interesting to create
12:01 cafe_kioto windowed application
12:01 nothingmuch http://tnx.nl/php
12:01 nothingmuch cafe_kioto: in perl you have Qt, Tk, Gtk
12:01 nothingmuch WxWindows?
12:01 kungfuftr xul
12:01 nothingmuch in python you should have the same offerrings
12:01 nothingmuch Win32::GUI
12:01 nothingmuch CamelBones
12:01 kungfuftr X11::Protocol
12:03 cafe_kioto i think that the language get new live with
12:03 cafe_kioto parrot engine
12:03 nothingmuch that's not ready yet
12:03 nothingmuch don't count on it to make your life easy in the next year or two
12:04 cafe_kioto but you programming with perl for your customer
12:05 cafe_kioto in my country more language like perl, php, python is not knowed
12:06 QtPlatypus cafe_kioto: Where do you live?
12:06 cafe_kioto italy
12:11 larsen me too
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12:11 cafe_kioto very nice
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12:15 larsen cafe_kioto: are you italian ?
12:15 cafe_kioto yes i'm
12:16 larsen if you want, there are italian perl mongers in #nordest.pm, irc.slashnet.org
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12:18 cafe_kioto thanks larsen
12:18 cafe_kioto for the advice
12:21 cafe_kioto but the official site of perl project is www.perl.com on o'reilly site
12:24 cdpruden has quit IRC ("The computer fell asleep")
12:24 cafe_kioto sorry perl.org
12:24 Aankhen`` Anyone got enough knowhow to implemented File::seek?
12:26 gaal i can look into it
12:27 gaal we can only offer basic file io for now though, no posix semantics. is that enough for what you need?
12:28 gaal btw: new smoke coming up at http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/
12:30 Limbic_Region gaal - it looks like autrijus is back in the land of the living so some of the pugsbugs I have been waiting for might be fixed
12:31 * Limbic_Region was just checking the recent commits and see some things for the spaceship parsing bugs :-D
12:31 gaal :)
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12:39 gaal i have to go now for ~2 hrs
12:40 gaal i'm nopasting the prim stuff, feel free to complete it
12:40 gaal (it's pretty trivial, just add an import of hSeek and write up the prelude side)
12:42 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "seek WIP" (21 lines, 635B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11597
12:42 gaal hack away or wait two hours :)
12:43 * gaal &
12:43 Aankhen`` Oops, sorry, I got distracted and didn't reply...
12:43 * Aankhen`` thinks to himself, "POSIX semantics? Huh?"
12:45 Aankhen`` I just need to be able to open a file, seek to a particular position, write to it, close it, et al.
12:45 cafe_kioto thanks to all
12:45 cafe_kioto bye
12:45 cafe_kioto has quit IRC ()
12:52 wolverian I have to get x working again, console is terrible :)
13:02 Nattfodd tss tss
13:02 Nattfodd as long as you don't want to watch a movie, console is great
13:03 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
13:03 wolverian I can't get utf8 to work quite right - elinks still displays some things wrong. and the font I want to use is too large.
13:04 wolverian also, I don't really want to mess with fb :)
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13:31 Aankhen`` seen cwest
13:31 jabbot Aankhen``: cwest was seen 6 hours 42 minutes 21 seconds ago
13:35 autrijus gaal: cool work
13:35 autrijus however I'm too sleepy to complete it now
13:35 autrijus but journal up (for a change)
13:36 * autrijus waves and sinks back to blissful sleep... &
13:37 wolverian cheers :)
13:37 autrijus :)
13:37 * autrijus ponders what next to do, now the 6-month sabbatical is less than a month away.
13:37 * autrijus decides to sleep on it
13:37 masak sleep well
13:38 autrijus s/away/left/
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13:52 svnbot6 r5272, autrijus++ | * correct a test typo: `is (...)` should be `is(...)`
13:52 svnbot6 r5273, autrijus++ | * Autovivify variables and globals even as rvalues.
13:52 svnbot6 r5274, autrijus++ | * unTODO, cleanup, etc collect tests.
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14:05 svnbot6 r5275, autrijus++ | * todo+fail erratic destruction tests for release.
14:07 Aankhen`` Hiya autrijus. :-)
14:11 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
14:12 nothingmuch hola.
14:12 nothingmuch hola
14:12 nothingmuch has left
14:12 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
14:12 nothingmuch baah
14:13 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
14:14 nothingmuch hola theorbtwo
14:15 theorbtwo Hola, Yuval.
14:16 nothingmuch "Yuval" doesn't pop up a floater =)
14:16 nothingmuch use nothingmuch, it's more reliable
14:16 nothingmuch the moment I get a working irssi i'll have growl set up properly
14:17 theorbtwo Heh.
14:17 theorbtwo In that case, hola, nothingmuch.
14:17 nothingmuch hola!
14:18 nothingmuch irssi is lyingf
14:18 nothingmuch it says "connecting"
14:18 nothingmuch but it makes no such syscall
14:22 nothingm1ch has joined #perl6
14:22 nothingm1ch hmm... this is a proper irssi, but not on the box I want it to run on
14:23 eric256 i gotta ask, what is an irssi ?
14:23 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
14:23 nothingmuch irc client
14:23 nothingmuch the problem is that I'm not able to get a proper working build.
14:23 nothingmuch either it's too old, or badly packaged, or doesn't actually connect, or it's on a machine I don't want to use it on
14:23 wolverian nothingmuch: get it from svn and build yourself?
14:24 nothingmuch wolverian: it's got many ugly deps
14:24 nothingmuch notably glib
14:24 wolverian it just worked here :)
14:24 nothingmuch which I think is the actual problem with it not working on my darwin
14:24 wolverian oh, darwin
14:24 nothingmuch i ktraced through it
14:24 nothingmuch it forks a child, the child resolves the host
14:24 nothingmuch prints back on the pipe, and exits
14:24 nothingmuch the parent just sits there
14:24 nothingmuch doing nothing
14:25 nothingmuch no wait(), no sigchld handler, no pipe read, no connect
14:25 wolverian weird.
14:25 nothingmuch since supposedly glib is supposed to handle the lower level mishmash, i suspect it's at fault
14:26 nothingm1ch is now known as nothingmuch_past
14:26 nothingmuch_past is now known as nothingmuchpasta
14:27 nothingmuchpasta is now known as nothingmuch_
14:27 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuchpasta
14:28 nothingmuch there, new nicks registered
14:30 alexe has joined #perl6
14:32 stevan morning nothingmuch
14:35 gaal rehi
14:35 eric256 has left
14:36 gaal nothinmuch is a kind of pasta fresca.
14:37 nothingmuch gaal: pasta is my home box hostname
14:37 nothingmuchpasta is now known as nothing_pasta
14:37 stevan hey gaal
14:37 nothingmuch i think I prefer this
14:37 * gaal just came back from late lunch at an Italian with friends
14:37 gaal s/s$//
14:38 gaal heya stevan!
14:38 * gaal resumes hSEek
14:38 nothingmuch hola stevan
14:38 nothingmuch i finally got my algorithms book
14:38 stevan nothingmuch: nice :)
14:38 nothingmuch and my m. ward CD
14:38 stevan what was that ... 24-36 weeks for delivery
14:40 gaal what's m.ward?
14:40 scook0 has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:41 nothingmuch stevan: approx
14:41 nothingmuch gaal: i'll rip
14:43 nothing_pasta is now known as addnet
14:44 addnet is now known as help
14:44 help is now known as delnet
14:45 delnet is now known as listnick
14:45 listnick has quit IRC ("leaving")
14:46 nothingmuch oops, dumb renames
14:47 * nothingmuch suddenly realizes his mother will be in london tomorrow
14:47 nothingmuch good thing twas not today
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15:26 nothingmuch hah, fixed it
15:26 nothingmuch finally
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15:47 gaal hmm, i wonder why the seek is failing.
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15:48 gaal how do i make System.IO errors raise exceptions?
15:56 fglock has joined #perl6
16:04 Limbic_Region salutations fglock
16:04 Limbic_Region how goes the work on the DateTime project?
16:06 fglock hi - I can't login through svn.
16:08 fglock I registered in http://rt.openfoundry.org - is this the right place?
16:12 hcchien fglock: yes
16:13 ingy hi hcchien
16:14 hcchien ingy: hola
16:17 Limbic_Region fglock - define can't login?
16:17 Limbic_Region sorry was afk earlier
16:17 Limbic_Region I had an issue of not staying logged in when I was trying to give you the commit bit
16:17 Limbic_Region the problem happened to be with my firewall/FF configuration
16:18 fglock Limbic_Region: it keeps asking me for the pass. I'm trying again with https.
16:22 Limbic_Region but you are able to commit via svn or svk?
16:22 svnbot6 r5276, iblech++ | * t/builtins/lists/reduce.t -- Fixed "is(...), ..." to "is((...), ...)".
16:22 svnbot6 r5276, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to new files in lib/Perl6-MetaModel/.
16:23 fglock Limbic_Region: no, I can't commit yet. I'll try again.
16:23 Limbic_Region let me login and see what it says your status is
16:25 Limbic_Region flgock - dunno but your username may be case sensitive
16:25 gaal i'm logged in now, l~r. what's your username, fglock?
16:25 Limbic_Region and by default, svn/svk will attempt to use you username from the environment variable
16:25 fglock "fglock"
16:25 gaal i can't see "fglock" in the member list.
16:25 Limbic_Region you will need to use a command line option to change that
16:25 Limbic_Region if it isn't the same that is
16:26 gaal can you /msg me your email, i'll re-add you? l~r, i hope that's okay since you're having cookie problems :)
16:26 Limbic_Region gaal - cookie problems are from home
16:26 Limbic_Region I am not having any problems here
16:26 Limbic_Region I am looking now myself
16:27 gaal oh. okay then, go ahead :)
16:27 Limbic_Region fglock - will use same email as before
16:27 Limbic_Region oh - I think it is my fault
16:28 Limbic_Region it should work now btw
16:28 Limbic_Region sending the invite wasn't enough - had to mark you as "member" in step 2
16:28 Limbic_Region that has been done now
16:28 Limbic_Region I see flgock as a member now
16:28 fglock ok - I got the email this time - thanks!
16:28 Limbic_Region Flavio S. Glock
16:29 * Limbic_Region should have paid more attention but he was fighting with those pesky cookies before
16:31 fglock it worked!
16:32 Limbic_Region well, welcome aboard (again)
16:33 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (No route to host)
16:33 svnbot6 r5277, fglock++ | Set::Infinite initial commit - just a skeleton
16:35 fglock datetime-set is almost empty - should i upload anyway?
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16:43 Limbic_Region fglock - how else is anyone else going to contribute
16:47 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
16:51 * Aankhen`` pokes gaal.
16:51 svnbot6 r5278, fglock++ | fixed the object variables
16:51 svnbot6 r5279, fglock++ | initial commit - just a skeleton
16:51 svnbot6 r5280, fglock++ | README fix
16:51 gaal hey :)
16:51 Aankhen`` Hiya. :-)
16:51 Aankhen`` Any progress on `seek`?
16:51 gaal i have the code, but it fails.
16:51 gaal shall i commit it?
16:51 gaal i haven't figured out how to trace it in the haskell level
16:51 Aankhen`` Hmm.
16:51 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
16:51 Aankhen`` No, it's okay.  I can wait.
16:52 gaal why wold a seek fail, anyway?
16:52 gaal on a file.
16:52 Aankhen`` The file didn't open?
16:52 gaal it did
16:52 Aankhen`` Hmm.
16:52 Aankhen`` You don't have read permissions? :-P
16:52 wolverian why not commit it and let everyone take a look?
16:52 Aankhen`` Maybe you're seeking too far ahead.
16:53 Aankhen`` (i.e. the file is too small for the quantity)
16:53 gaal of course i do :) i did my $f = File.open(<AUTHORS>); $f.seek(50, 0); say =$f
16:53 Aankhen`` Ah
16:53 Aankhen`` .
16:53 gaal nope on all of the above :)
16:53 gaal committing.
16:53 egg|patented has joined #perl6
16:54 gaal r5281
16:54 gaal have at it :)
16:59 egg|patented has left
16:59 svnbot6 r5281, gaal++ | seek builtin. failsforme, silently.
17:00 wolverian wow, saying <AUTHORS> as a way to quote it is so confusing to a perl5 coder :)
17:00 Aankhen`` gaal++ # for working on it
17:00 Aankhen`` ?eval (<foo>, <bar baz>)
17:00 evalbot6 ('foo', 'bar', 'baz')
17:00 Aankhen`` ?eval <foo>
17:00 wolverian it looks like a filehandle read
17:00 gaal heh :) i do it because i switch between shells a lot
17:00 evalbot6 'foo'
17:00 wolverian gaal: heh.
17:01 Aankhen`` ?eval <foo bar>
17:01 evalbot6 ('foo', 'bar')
17:01 gaal including the windows "shell" (my ass) which has horrible quoting problems
17:01 wolverian gaal: nah, it quotes fine, as long as you remember ' is not a quote ;)
17:01 Aankhen`` Aye aye!
17:01 Aankhen`` wolverian >> And *shudder* double up your double quotes to escape them?
17:02 gaal oh yeah? why does find *require* quotes then?
17:02 wolverian gaal: hm?
17:02 gaal dir | find moose # doesn't work
17:02 gaal dir | find "moose" # does
17:02 wolverian gaal: haha, really? that's pathetic
17:02 wolverian I thought the shell at least did the quoting
17:02 wolverian when it comes to "
17:02 wolverian are you saying it just passes the quotes in to the programs?
17:03 gaal sometimes :)
17:03 fglock I can say Bool.true - but Bool.false does not work?
17:03 gaal i don't know how it works really. w32 is all voodoo
17:03 Aankhen`` fglock >> What about Bool::true and Bool::false?
17:03 Aankhen`` Er.
17:03 gaal say bool::true and bool::flase
17:04 Aankhen`` `bool::true` and `bool::false`.
17:04 gaal lowercase
17:04 Aankhen`` ?eval 1 == 1
17:04 evalbot6 bool::true
17:04 Aankhen`` ?eval 1 == 0
17:04 evalbot6 bool::false
17:04 wolverian :: is so ugly. :/
17:04 fglock thanks
17:04 wolverian I wish we used # or something to delimit packages
17:04 Aankhen`` wolverian >> Hey! I didn't raise you to talk bad about punctuation!
17:04 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:05 wolverian (or just . and put them into the same namespace... although that's severely limiting)
17:05 gaal by the way! i presume it's a known problem that this doesn't worl?
17:05 gaal work?
17:05 gaal ?eval class Foo; our $class_var = 8;
17:05 evalbot6 \8
17:05 gaal huh!?
17:05 gaal it didn't workforme :)
17:05 Aankhen`` I like ::, personally.  Atleast, when it's not overused. "Bool::false" is so-so, "bool::False" is strange, but "Bool::False" looks okay. :-)
17:06 gaal ?eval class Foo { our $x = 8; }
17:06 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
17:06 gaal heh
17:06 clkao w/in21
17:06 wolverian no, you won't! you're staying here!
17:06 gaal scoped our doesn't work it seems. known problem?
17:06 wolverian gaal: well, scoped our isn't even completely specced yet
17:06 wolverian gaal: in roles anyway
17:06 gaal hmmm
17:06 eric256 why would yo uuse our anyway?
17:07 gaal public constant
17:07 Aankhen`` eric256 >> Class variables.
17:07 gaal and class variables too :)
17:07 Aankhen`` class Foo { our $.bar = 10; }; say $Foo::bar;
17:07 Aankhen`` `our $bar`, even.
17:07 gaal File::SEEK_START
17:07 Aankhen`` class Foo { our $bar = 10; }; say $Foo::bar;
17:07 gaal $File::SEEK_START that is
17:07 wolverian gaal: what's SEEK_START?
17:07 eric256 ahh as opposed to instance variables. makes a certain kind of since (a bunch of little variables all say "hey those are 'our' variables."
17:08 Aankhen`` Heh.
17:08 Aankhen`` I like the way you think. =)
17:08 eric256 s/variables/objects/
17:08 wolverian I mean, it looks like a pretty self-explanatory name, but I don't understand what it would mean as a class variable
17:08 gaal wolverian, $fh.seek(50, SEEK_START)
17:09 gaal $fh.seek(-1024, SEEK_END)
17:09 gaal well, $File::SEEK_END
17:09 wolverian gaal: hmm. that doesn't seem like a very good interface
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17:11 wolverian we could generalise the issue with a builtin Delta class
17:11 dmo has joined #perl6
17:11 wolverian when seek() is given a delta, it uses the current position, otherwise absolute. hmm, there'd need to be some way to get at the end of the file too.
17:11 wolverian oh well. :from<end>?
17:11 gaal that's an oop version of the p5 interface.
17:11 gaal i'll also add tell.
17:12 wolverian gaal: yeah, and it sucks, I think
17:12 wolverian (no offense - you're probably just porting it, and that's fine)
17:12 gaal i'd be happy to add more interfaces, but you get to petition them on p6-l :-)
17:12 wolverian right, sure.
17:12 wolverian I'll mail about it on p6l if you want?
17:12 wolverian or do you want to? :)
17:12 gaal please do.
17:12 wolverian sure.
17:13 gaal i don't feel strongly about this, and where i don't feel strongly and there is no spec yet i tend to just port.
17:14 wolverian hmm
17:14 wolverian where do SEEK_END and such come from in perl5?
17:14 wolverian POSIX?
17:14 wolverian Fcntl?
17:14 wolverian my perldoc is so slow :)
17:15 gaal Fcntl.
17:15 wolverian thanks
17:18 wolverian gaal: sent mail
17:19 gaal wolverain++
17:20 Aankhen`` wolverian++
17:20 Aankhen`` (nick completion)++
17:20 wolverian wolverain-- # it's raining wolverines
17:20 gaal that said, i think :from<end> is nice. $fh.end - 10 won't work well i think.
17:21 wolverian performance?
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17:22 gaal there are three modes to seek, traditionally. absolute, relative to current, and offset at end. i expect them all to be one syscall.
17:22 gaal (not sure though.)
17:22 wolverian right. I have a hazy concept of such things
17:23 wolverian translate that to real english if you want
17:23 wolverian perl5 is surprisingly high level. :)
17:23 gaal are you on linux?
17:24 wolverian not right now, since I broke my X (I'm running ubuntu breezy, the development branch) so I'm booted to windows currently
17:24 iblech has joined #perl6
17:24 wolverian my server is running linux, though
17:24 Aankhen`` Hiya iblech. :-)
17:24 wolverian (the one that irssi runs on :)
17:25 gaal as an illustration look at the manpage for fseek: eg http://www.die.net/doc/linux/man/man3/fseek.3.html
17:25 masak Aankhen``++ # for giving me the idea to try nick completion, this is great :)
17:25 gaal you'll see that perl didn't invent any of these names
17:25 * Aankhen`` pokes cwest for signs of life.
17:25 gaal even "whence" is from the c interface
17:25 wolverian right.
17:26 Aankhen`` masak >> I'm glad /someone/ learned something. ;-)
17:26 masak ;)
17:26 wolverian the point being that C is much lower level than perl - so as long as we can keep the performance up we should fix the interface
17:26 wolverian because we _can_
17:27 gaal since this is so deep in the tradition, i bet underliying os implementations have a single system call that does any of the three seeks
17:27 iblech Aankhen``: Hi :) Unfortunately I'll be off again soon (school trip to Paris, coming back Sunday night)...
17:27 gaal of course we can fix the interface; but doing this:
17:27 Nattfodd has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:27 Aankhen`` iblech >> Awww. :-(
17:27 wolverian right. then a :from<end start current> mapping to those is probably the best idea
17:27 gaal $f.seek($fh.end - 50)
17:27 iblech Aankhen``: Yes... :(
17:28 Aankhen`` iblech >> How much longer do you have in school/
17:28 autarch has joined #perl6
17:28 Aankhen`` ?
17:28 wolverian (although <end start current> aren't very well connected as properties of the file, which is why $fh.end would be better as an abstraction and on the human language level)
17:28 gaal will actually work with "my" interface (i made ?$position = start)
17:28 gaal but is needlessly inefficient.
17:28 wolverian right.
17:28 wolverian I just hate needless globals
17:29 wolverian gaal++ # thanks for coding things!
17:29 gaal i'm all for abstraction and good interface, but if the system wants to help you work cleanly, why not let it? :)
17:29 iblech Aankhen``: In approx. three weeks, we'll have six weeks vacation :) and then two more years
17:29 Aankhen`` iblech >> Gak! Two years?
17:29 Aankhen`` How many years of schooling do you have in total?
17:29 wolverian gaal: sure - I'm fine with :from<foo>, which is equivalent to the SEEK_* globals, except with a nicer interface
17:29 wolverian gaal: both should map to the same syscalls
17:29 svnbot6 r5282, fglock++ | added a few tests
17:30 wolverian s,should,can,
17:30 gaal yup. i'm happy with that - but i'll let others spec it :-)
17:30 wolverian yeah. :)
17:30 wolverian there might be better ideas, or larry might be harbouring some insane idea again
17:31 wolverian not that those are mutually exclusive...
17:31 gaal also, adding tests is liable to get it coded your way (hint, hint :-))
17:31 wolverian heh. but tests are spec and I'm not larry!
17:31 gaal i love larry's insane idea except for when i'm 80% done implementing something the way i thought it shold be. :-)
17:31 gaal *ideas
17:31 wolverian I think autrijus feels your pain too :)
17:31 Aankhen`` LMAO.
17:32 iblech Aankhen``: 13, but with the beginning of the next year, new pupils will only have to go 12 years to school
17:32 Aankhen`` Ah.
17:33 iblech Aankhen``: Germany, you know...
17:33 Aankhen`` Heh.
17:33 Aankhen`` Very thorough.
17:33 iblech Indeed
17:36 Aankhen`` How are recursive patterns specified?
17:37 Aankhen`` For example, a pattern to match an unescaped backslash, i.e. a backslash not preceded by a backslash not preceded by a backslash...
17:37 wolverian egh, 21mb of sid updates
17:38 wolverian things are slow on a computer with a /tmp of 35 mb and 48 mb RAM :)
17:40 Aankhen`` wolverian >> BTW, you were asking about whether modules are global by default, right?
17:40 nnunley__ has joined #perl6
17:40 wolverian Aankhen``: yeah, I think.
17:40 Aankhen`` @Larry: > They are "our" by default, not "my".  Just as subs are "our" by
17:40 Aankhen`` > default.  And indeed, that is probably what package/module/class
17:40 Aankhen`` > names are going to default to as well.
17:41 wolverian ah, right. and what does "our" do exactly in Perl 6?
17:41 Aankhen`` Um... package/class/module-level var?
17:41 svnbot6 r5283, iblech++ | Usual svn props added to fglock++'s new ext/DateTime-Set and ext/Set-Infinite,
17:41 svnbot6 r5283, iblech++ | include the appropriate svn:ignore to hide autogenerated files like Makefile, etc.
17:41 Aankhen`` class Foo { our $bar = 10; } say $Foo::bar; # prints "10\n"
17:42 Aankhen`` module Foo { our $bar = 10; } say $Foo::bar; # prints "10\n"
17:42 wolverian right. thanks.
17:43 Aankhen`` NP. :-)
17:43 wolverian module Foo { module Bar { } } Foo::Bar; # the way to look up Bar now?
17:43 Aankhen`` Yes.
17:43 wolverian thanks.
17:43 wolverian hmm
17:43 Aankhen`` redo;
17:43 wolverian I can't find seek() in ruby
17:43 wolverian oh, here we are
17:43 wolverian IO instead of File :)
17:44 wolverian ah. it uses IO::SEEK_* globals
17:44 wolverian (well. package globals..)
17:45 Aankhen`` Heh.
17:45 Aankhen`` BRB.
17:47 wolverian I'm not sure if one needs seek() at all really
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17:47 wolverian maybe perl6 can map $fh[$start .. $end] intelligently enough (and lazily enough) to be efficient and easy to ue :)
17:48 gaal you want perl to be an OS? :)
17:49 wolverian hmm. no. I want seek() to be available as well, and the [] to use that to seek to $start automatically
17:50 wolverian e.g. for =$fh[-10...] -> $line { ... } # iterate efficiently over the last ten lines
17:51 gaal <3 Tie::File
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17:51 wolverian right. I forgot Perl 5 does it already :)
17:52 gaal but that's a nifty module to port!
17:52 wolverian we need the iterators/generators thing first, I think, for it to be usable as above
17:52 ilogger stops logging #perl6 at Thu Jul 07 17:52:49 2005
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17:56 svnbot6 r5284, iblech++ | * Continued chromatic++'s work of s/Perl6/Perl 6/ in lib/, ext/, and docs/.
17:56 svnbot6 r5284, iblech++ | * Fixed alignment in READTHEM.
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18:03 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { method bar (::?CLASS $self: ) { .ref } }; Foo.new.bar
18:03 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
18:03 svnbot6 r5285, iblech++ | Test fixes:
18:03 svnbot6 r5285, iblech++ | * EOLs at EOFs (also in ext/).
18:03 svnbot6 r5285, iblech++ | * "#!/usr/bin/pugs" added to test missing that line.
18:03 svnbot6 r5285, iblech++ | * eval_is(...) -> is(eval(...)).
18:03 * Aankhen`` pokes iblech.
18:04 Aankhen`` Shouldn't ::?CLASS and ::?ROLE parse?
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18:04 iblech Aankhen``: It should, doesn't it?
18:04 iblech ?eval ::?CLASS
18:04 evalbot6 \::main
18:04 iblech ?eval ::?ROLE
18:04 evalbot6 \::main
18:04 Aankhen`` Hmm.
18:05 Aankhen`` Doesn't appear to parse in signatures.
18:05 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo; method bar (::?CLASS $self: ) { "bar" };
18:05 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting formal parameter, end of input or ")"
18:05 iblech Hm...
18:06 wolverian hmm. does the ::?CLASS there DWYM when the class 'trusts Bar' and you call Bar.new.bar?
18:06 Aankhen`` ::?CLASS is the class the method is declared in, AFAIK.
18:07 wolverian then that method is unusable from a trusted class
18:07 Aankhen`` `trusts` only affects access to instance variables
18:07 Aankhen`` .
18:07 Aankhen`` Yes.
18:07 wolverian hmm, I read autrijus's message differently
18:07 Aankhen`` Well, I've been known to be wrong. ;-)
18:07 wolverian upon rereading it seems to only pertain to accessors, yes
18:08 wolverian but who's saying bar isn't an accessor? :)
18:08 Aankhen`` I dunno, but I /am/ saying it's not an instance variable. :-P
18:10 wolverian okay, time to install breezy colony 2 over the broken breezy partition and see if it works :)
18:10 wolverian brb
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18:12 Aankhen`` ?eval gather { for (a => "b", c => "d").kv -> $k, $v is copy { $v .= uc; take $v } }
18:12 evalbot6 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
18:12 Aankhen`` ?eval gather { for (a => "b", c => "d").kv -> $k, $v is copy { $v = $v.uc; take $v } }
18:12 evalbot6 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
18:12 Aankhen`` ?eval gather { my %foo = (a => "b", c => "d"); for %foo.kv -> $k, $v is copy { $v = $v.uc; take $v } }
18:12 evalbot6 ('B', 'D')
18:14 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo () { "I know kung foo" }; &::("foo").()
18:14 svnbot6 r5286, fglock++ | more tests
18:14 svnbot6 r5287, fglock++ | oops - missed some files
18:14 evalbot6 'I know kung foo'
18:15 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo () { "I know kung foo" }; my $bar = "o"; &::("f" ~ ($bar x 2)).()
18:15 evalbot6 'I know kung foo'
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18:16 iblech Aankhen``: Fixed the ::?FOO parsing bug, checking in in a moment :)
18:17 Aankhen`` Yey!
18:17 Aankhen`` iblech++
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18:20 Aankhen`` Woo.
18:20 fglock I've got a problem in ext/Set-Infinite/t/set-functional-span.t - "use_ok" doesn't actually "use" the module?
18:20 fglock I have to "use" it again
18:20 Aankhen`` I'm finding some strange parsing problems. :-D
18:21 iblech fglock: It does. But probably, the subs to be exported are exported into Test.pm's namespace, not into the namespace of your test file
18:22 Aankhen`` No, it only `require`s the module.
18:22 fglock it doesn't recognize the class name - I get 'No compatible subroutine found: "&Set::Functional::Span"'
18:22 Aankhen`` eval "package $caller; require $module";
18:22 Aankhen`` fglock >> Is the test ci'd?
18:23 iblech Aankhen``: Oh, I retract my comment then :)
18:23 fglock yes - it works (with the extra "use")
18:23 Aankhen`` OK, I'm going to fiddle around a bit locally.
18:25 gaal if I add a haskellish Prim with a fully qualified name, woudl it be dispatched correctly on objects?
18:25 svnbot6 r5288, iblech++ | Pugs.Lexer, Pugs.Parser -- Made ::?CLASS in subroutine signatures parse again,
18:25 svnbot6 r5288, iblech++ | thanks to Aankhen++ for noticing.
18:25 svnbot6 r5289, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to fglock++'s new files in ext/Set-Infinite.
18:25 svnbot6 r5289, iblech++ | * Documented some more conventions (svn:executable, shebang lines, naming
18:25 svnbot6 r5289, iblech++ |   conventions) in pugs::hack.
18:26 rednoise has left
18:28 iblech Ok, time to go... See you monday! :)
18:28 Aankhen`` See you!
18:28 gaal bye iblech! :)
18:28 Aankhen`` Have fun!
18:29 iblech Thanks :)
18:29 iblech off &
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18:36 Aankhen`` Hmmm.
18:37 Aankhen`` The relevant line from Test.pm is this: eval "package $caller; require $module";
18:37 Aankhen`` I want to replace that with: &::($module).import.goto(...); # it needs to pass the relevant parameters, of course
18:38 Aankhen`` But apparently I can only do that by using ::, not ., like so: &::($module)::import.goto(...);
18:38 gaal looks good to me. (don't know about the ::/. stuff though)
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18:39 Aankhen`` Do you know where Sub::goto (or whatever the full name is) and the like are specced?
18:39 gaal there was precious little speccage of that when i wrote goto.t
18:39 Aankhen`` They don't seem to be in S06...
18:39 gaal but that was a while ago
18:39 gaal i just grepped S*
18:42 Aankhen`` Is there anything about overriding `import`?
18:42 gaal sorry, dunno.
18:45 Aankhen`` &func.goto(@args)
18:45 Aankhen`` (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/perl.perl6.language/browse_thread/thread/cba8748ebd6084c6/ca1b4f443be3915f?q=goto&amp;rnum=2#ca1b4f443be3915f)
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18:58 svnbot6 r5290, Aankhen++ | * Test.pm: added (currently commented out) alternative implementation of &use_ok.
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19:27 * Limbic_Region yawns and wonders what is new in the exciting world of Pugs
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19:51 svnbot6 r5291, gaal++ | * WIP: new [internals] builtins: IO::tell, Pugs::Internals::hIsOpen,
19:51 svnbot6 r5291, gaal++ |   Pugs::Internals::hIsClosed, Pugs::Internals::hIsReadable,
19:51 svnbot6 r5291, gaal++ |   Pugs::Internals::hIsWritable, Pugs::Internals::hIsSeekable.
19:51 svnbot6 r5291, gaal++ | For some reason, most of these lie (eg, hIsReadable retrurns true on :r
19:51 svnbot6 r5291, gaal++ | files) so this needs some investigation still.
19:51 gaal err
19:52 gaal the lie is that hIsWritable says true on :r :-)
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20:11 svnbot6 r5292, fglock++ | cleanup
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20:27 elmex what is about the $self->method () syntax, is thre anything decided?
20:27 svnbot6 r5293, fglock++ | added DateTime::Span
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20:43 Aankhen`` G'night.
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20:54 wolverian wow, ruby's templating systems all suck, or are too heavy (like rails)
21:01 masak how is rails too heavy? (I haven't used it so, I don't know)
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21:06 * nothingmuch collapses
21:08 wolverian masak: it does too much for this projec
21:08 wolverian t
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21:12 dudley Who exactly is @larry?
21:14 integral (TINC)
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21:15 cwest someone in .cz
21:15 cwest or someone connecting from there anyway
21:15 * masak thinks that is a funny answer
21:17 * dudley doesn't get it
21:17 masak dudley: @larry is the core team designing perl6
21:17 masak larry wall and a few others
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21:18 dudley masak: Yeah, I meant for @larry -> {say $_;}
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21:19 dudley I've been following along for a while and I just realized that $larry was the only one of @larry that I knew...
21:19 svnbot6 r5294, fglock++ | "complement"
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21:34 * dudley gets it now...
21:36 wilx has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:43 * masak doesn't
21:43 svnbot6 r5295, fglock++ | half-implemented "union"
21:43 masak explain, please
21:47 autrijus rehi.
21:48 autrijus "Introduction to Pugs" and "Perl 6 in the Real World" are both rejected from Euro OSCON :-/
21:48 wolverian :/
21:48 PerlJam autrijus: why?
21:49 autrijus PerlJam: no idea... "topics was too narrow, covered by other presentations, or too vendor specific"
21:49 PerlJam If they already have a full billet, I can understand it.
21:49 autarch what vendor is that?
21:49 autrijus however, my "Introduction to Haskell" and "Perl and Internationalization" got accepted (a while ago)
21:49 PerlJam It was probably the "topic too narrow" part that got them
21:50 autrijus indeed
21:51 PerlJam autrijus: just use pugs in your introduction to haskell ;-)
21:51 autrijus PerlJam: I very much doubt it's as entry level as I billed it :)
21:51 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
21:51 autrijus I'll perhaps use Harrorth instead
21:52 autrijus nothingmuch++ # superb introduction material
21:52 masak nothingmuch++ # agreed
21:52 PerlJam autrijus: well, clearly perl6 is relevant to perl and internationalization.  :-)
21:54 autrijus PerlJam: yeah :)
22:00 Limbic_Region welcome back to the land of the living autrijus
22:01 clkao hello autrijus
22:01 clkao you recovered?
22:01 clkao autrijus: are you also offered 25% discount for euro oscon?
22:01 clkao oh you got something accepted
22:02 gaal i figured out why seek and tell were failing
22:02 autrijus clkao: they don't want svk? :-/
22:02 gaal on windows theyt only work in binary mode
22:02 autrijus Limbic_Region: heya, glad to be back
22:02 autrijus gaal: !
22:02 gaal #haskell++
22:02 clkao autrijus: no.
22:02 autrijus sad.
22:02 clkao autrijus: it's probably too vendor specific
22:03 clkao though i am sure there will be subvesrion tutorial again
22:03 gaal yes. well.
22:03 autrijus clkao: so you won't be @ amsterdam?
22:03 clkao i probably will.
22:03 autrijus or is fotango going to pay your 75%?
22:03 autrijus cool!
22:03 Limbic_Region autrijus - when you are sufficiently rested and want to here the bizzare story of why Prelude.hs failed to compile on my home machine Win32 - let me know
22:03 clkao i guess so. we have conference budgets
22:03 Limbic_Region I also journaled it, but skimmed over the details
22:03 clkao autrijus: how's it going? no new pugs release? you suck
22:04 autrijus clkao: I suck, I was totally dead
22:04 autarch clkao: How long have you been at Fotango?
22:04 gaal autrijus, what's the Right Way to return in a Void Prim? I did `return undef` because `return ()` didn't compile, but that looks wrong.
22:04 clkao autarch: since nov. but physically since apr.
22:04 autarch ah
22:04 gaal wow, what a barrage of questions :)
22:04 autrijus Limbic_Region: I've read your journal; the .dll searchpath problem is annoying
22:04 clkao autrijus: what's blocking? topic?
22:04 autrijus gaal: return;
22:05 clkao autrijus: does svk suck for you lately?
22:05 gaal in haskell
22:05 autrijus gaal: wait, prim? you don't return in prim
22:05 autrijus oh.
22:05 autrijus retEmpty
22:05 gaal thanks!
22:05 autrijus np
22:05 autrijus clkao: yeah, just the topic
22:05 Limbic_Region I would be fine with GHC having a hard coded path to its own perl.exe if it at least spit out useful error messages when it couldn't find it
22:05 autrijus clkao: but I need to work on some p5 (chaldea) now
22:06 clkao autrijus: i am going to release 1.01... so let me know if something sucks
22:06 clkao or you don't use svk anymore?
22:06 autrijus Limbic_Region: indeed. post to GHC's mailing list or sf.net tracking system?
22:06 autrijus clkao: er, I use svk so much that I forgot its existence
22:06 * Limbic_Region thinks it is kinda silly to force a hardcoded path anyway since there is nothing special about the actual executable
22:06 Limbic_Region I replaced it with a different one and the problem went away
22:06 gaal okay, finally open($file, :layer<:raw>) is useful for something
22:06 clkao autrijus: same as i do, so it gets weird to hack on it
22:07 clkao autarch: how about you?
22:07 Limbic_Region autrijus - does the list allow for non-members to post?  I am not going to subscribe just to say I think it is silly
22:07 autrijus Limbic_Region: I have no idea; probably you can subscribe, post, and unsubscribe; otoh, they do look at their sf.net bugtracking
22:07 autrijus which requires no subscription
22:07 autarch clkao: you mean work?  I'm at Socialtext since September
22:08 clkao autarch: i know, i mean svk :)
22:08 autarch oh, sorry
22:08 Limbic_Region ok - will look into it
22:08 autarch I haven't used it recently
22:08 autarch still needing that emacs mode ;)
22:08 clkao autrijus: what are you hacking on chaldea?
22:08 clkao autarch: i thought there's a emacs mode on the wiki
22:08 autarch it's busted ;)
22:08 autarch and I have no lisp-fu
22:08 clkao i only know it requires development release of emacs
22:09 autarch ah
22:09 autarch I have what's in debian unstable
22:10 autrijus clkao: validation etc
22:10 clkao ah, forward port
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22:11 svnbot6 r5296, gaal++ | make seek and tell raise exceptions on failure (GHC requires binary mode for
22:11 svnbot6 r5296, gaal++ | these operations on win32)
22:12 clkao autrijus: have you listened to gugod's new song?
22:12 gaal Aankhen`` (hoping you backlog): you can now use seek.
22:13 gaal who wants to help me figure out why hIsWritable lies to me in pugs, although a ghci test case shows it works correctly by itself?
22:14 gaal did I define it correctly?
22:14 gaal # op1 "Pugs::Internals::hIsWritable" = boolIO hIsWritable
22:14 autrijus clkao: eh no. url?
22:14 autrijus gaal: boolIO is a try that returns false on failure
22:14 clkao 03:33 <@gugod>  http://osx.gugod.org/ftp/3AM.mp3 # 剛剛跟 lukhnos 做的新歌
22:14 clkao 03:35 <@gugod> http://osx.gugod.org/index.cgi?gugod #  æ­Œè©ž
22:15 gaal autrijus: my problem is that i open a file for read only, and isWritable returns true :-)
22:15 autrijus gaal: you want something else entirely :)
22:15 gaal simply liftIO it?
22:15 autrijus op1 "Pugs::Internals::hIsWritable" = do
22:15 gaal ..and VBool the resutl?
22:15 autrijus op1 "Pugs::Internals::hIsWritable" = \x -> do
22:15 autrijus    fh <- fromVal x
22:16 autrijus    fmap VBool (liftIO $ hIsWritable fh)
22:16 autrijus something like that
22:16 clkao still need to use gcc3 on macosx right?
22:17 autrijus clkao: 6.4.1. snapshots are out
22:17 gaal i get to use op1cast for that, no? :-)
22:17 autrijus clkao: which should've fixed it, not sure
22:17 autrijus gaal: whatever works :)
22:18 gaal some lifting is definitely in order! i have five functions that should all be oneliners.
22:18 clkao 狂気である
22:18 autrijus gaal: welcome to the pointless club
22:19 Limbic_Region autrijus - 1234458 is the tracker ID for the GHC bug report FYI
22:19 autrijus er, pointfree club.
22:19 autrijus Limbic_Region: wonderful. thanks
22:19 gaal yeeha!
22:20 Limbic_Region autrijus++ # thanks for fixing the spaceship parsing bugs
22:20 autrijus :)
22:20 clkao ghc-pkg: cannot find package plugins
22:20 clkao because mine is ghc-6.4-pkg
22:21 * Limbic_Region still has no idea what made him think to try adding back in the perl.exe since he removed it a long time ago
22:22 svnbot6 r5297, fglock++ | more "TODO" added
22:22 Darren_Duncan just so you guys know, I have a series (2 parts at least) of large updates to make to my database modules before I think of porting them to perl 6 ... however, I *may* start said port prior to OSCON
22:23 Darren_Duncan also, I'll want to remove all the workarounds in LKT first
22:23 Darren_Duncan my current impression is that the ObjectModel stuff being worked on now is a prerequisite to some native Pugs support for object features, though I could be wrong
22:24 Darren_Duncan I mean, MetaModel
22:24 autrijus that is.
22:24 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "haskell style Q" (10 lines, 327B) at http://sial.org/pbot/11605
22:24 Darren_Duncan for example: will MetaModel be a prerequisite to doing any of these things ...
22:25 Darren_Duncan 1. declaring classes in any order and they can still invoke each other naturally
22:25 Darren_Duncan 2. being able to use can() and functions like that
22:25 Darren_Duncan 3. having private attributes etc
22:25 autrijus 1) needs the PIL evaluator -- i.e. separate the parsing from compiling
22:25 autrijus 2/3 depends on porting the metamodel to haskell
22:26 Darren_Duncan right, so I'll have to wait for those before I can do my SQL::Routine etc port
22:26 Darren_Duncan while Locale-KeyedText could be re-ordered to work around it, that won't work with my other modules
22:27 Darren_Duncan since classes within them each refer to the other
22:27 autrijus you can port ahead :) LKT and T::Builder both drove a lot of pugs OO features
22:27 Darren_Duncan I have considered that
22:27 autrijus so S::R shouldn't be different -- just abandon all workarounds so we can code up to it
22:28 Darren_Duncan so then, I just do what I did with the last SQL::Routine port ... don't expect it to run?
22:28 Darren_Duncan not quite actually
22:29 Darren_Duncan so I won't try to work-around issues when I do those modules ... I'll report bugs and wait for fixes before continuing
22:29 autrijus yup.
22:29 autrijus I think many of the feature you require are already in t/oo/
22:29 autrijus but then maybe some are not. I'd be very grateful if we can improve t/oo/'s coverage further
22:29 Darren_Duncan I consider them to be fairly basic ... mainly just what Perl 5 already supports
22:30 Darren_Duncan right, so that's the plan
22:30 autrijus yup
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22:30 Darren_Duncan still, I plan to do said major updates before the port, so I don't have to merge those updates into it later
22:30 autrijus k.
22:31 Darren_Duncan fyi, today I will commit a 'Rosetta' and '...Generic' major update ... they're done except the changelogs and I tend to be detailed in those
22:31 Darren_Duncan after that, all my distro versions in CPAN will work with each other
22:32 Darren_Duncan following that, there's at least 2 large updates across the line ... then the porting begins
22:32 autrijus k.
22:32 Maddingue__ is now known as Maddingue
22:32 svnbot6 r5298, clkao++ | Don't force gcc_select while people can just use $ENV{CC}.
22:33 obra nice
22:39 Limbic_Region autrijus - of your hackathon notes - what % is represented by current pugs?
22:39 svnbot6 r5299, autrijus++ | * improve the CC env message a little bit.
22:39 autrijus Limbic_Region: what %?
22:40 autrijus you mean pugs's implementation of the notes?
22:40 autrijus I think most of them are covered by new tests
22:40 autrijus not many of them are implemented
22:42 Limbic_Region gotcha
22:47 Pedro has quit IRC ()
22:48 clkao ghc-6.4:
22:48 clkao src/syck/syck.o: unknown symbol `_printf$LDBLStub'
22:48 clkao is this caused by gcc4 or ?
22:52 gaal how can i write code that is polymorphic over VBool, VInt, and other types, but which receives one of these types as an argument? sorry if this isn't very clear
22:52 gaal i want to reuse autrijus' code from above, which did
22:53 gaal fmap VBool (liftIO $ hIsWritable fh)
22:53 gaal i want to make both VBool and hIsWritable parametric
22:54 gaal i experimented with one or two things... btu what's the type of VBool when thought of as a function?
22:54 gaal (brb)
22:59 autrijus clkao: yeah, you need clean first
22:59 clkao i did
22:59 clkao maybe ghc doesn't respect CC
22:59 autrijus that's gcc4
22:59 clkao hate
23:00 gaal golfing haskell is wholly different from golfing perl.
23:00 autrijus gaal: the type of VBool is (Bool -> Val)
23:00 autrijus but your are looking at existentials
23:00 autrijus (forall a. Value a => a -> Val)
23:00 autrijus see vop1x in src/Emit/PIR.hs
23:01 gaal ah, so *thats* how you get the class in there
23:02 gaal I knew i wanted to make VBool more generic but Value didn't work there
23:02 autrijus study vop1*
23:02 autrijus and you'll eventually grok sexy types :)
23:02 gaal oo
23:03 * gaal studies
23:03 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("what is time for tv")
23:04 * autrijus plugs for pugs on lambda the ultimate
23:04 gaal some funky syntax to pick up there. <:=, <--, <==
23:04 autrijus # http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/827
23:04 autrijus gaal: er, nvm them, they are just userdefined infix
23:04 autrijus you know, like perl6
23:04 gaal uh huh
23:04 autrijus see line 203
23:05 gaal okay, yup
23:06 gaal so there's a fundamental difference beween the commented out sig and the existential version. what is it?
23:07 gaal --vop1x :: (RegClass a, RegClass b) => SubName -> PrimName -> a -> b -> Decl
23:07 gaal or are they equivalent?
23:08 gaal i think the Gentle tutorial doens't cover this. is it not in haskell 98?
23:10 wolverian autrijus: s/it's/its/ # just being pedantic :)
23:10 wolverian autrijus: (re: ltu)
23:10 wolverian oh, that wasn't your article. duh.
23:10 * wolverian hides under a rock
23:11 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
23:12 * gaal runs out of wakies
23:12 gaal i'll get these supporting functions in tomorrow - they're not blocking anyone, anyway
23:12 gaal if you see him tell Aankhen`` he has seek now. :)
23:13 * gaal waves. zzZZ &
23:14 autrijus gaal: they diff. the forall's are in different place.
23:14 autrijus gaal: cool :) next time we're both up I'd gladly show you the wonder of sexy typing
23:27 clkao autrijus: so has svk reached the 'what's the big deal' stage?
23:27 autrijus clkao: I'd say so.
23:27 larsen has joined #perl6
23:27 clkao autrijus: ok, good luck carry on with pugs :)
23:28 autrijus clkao: on the other hand... there's one phase after that stage
23:28 autrijus it's called "world domination" ;)
23:28 * clkao grins
23:41 meppl :D
23:46 wilx has joined #perl6
23:58 larsen has quit IRC ("later")

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