Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:09 clkao ok.. hsould use -pgmc /usr/bin/gcc-3.3
00:25 osfameron has joined #perl6
00:39 autrijus allison started journaling, hurray
00:39 autrijus http://use.perl.org/~Allison/journal/25576 # with my comments
00:40 clkao apple starts svk, hurray
00:40 autrijus the apple team? not only tlaloc any more?
00:40 clkao see #svk
00:41 autrijus oh wow.
00:41 autrijus next step: ship svk with XCode tools
00:43 wolverian is allison he or she?
00:43 * wolverian curious
00:43 autrijus does it matter? :)
00:44 autrijus I think she refers to herself as she.
00:44 wolverian yes, since english doesn't have a real gender neutral pronoun to use
00:44 autrijus (but then, so does ingy, sometimes)
00:44 wolverian ah, right. thanks.
00:44 wolverian I guess it's all assumption anyway, online :)
00:44 clkao Pugs uses Perl.org (i.e. TPF) mailing lists and IRC servers
00:44 autrijus offline too, nowadays.
00:45 * clkao checks and see we are still on freenode
00:45 wolverian autrijus: true enough.
00:45 autrijus nowadays a poor black boy can grow to be a rich white woman.
00:45 autrijus clkao: see my comment
00:45 wolverian I actually wish it was easier.
00:45 meppl cya autrjius
00:45 wolverian (The Culture...)
00:45 autrijus meppl: mm?
00:46 meppl oh, sorry im drunken, o thougt you want to go away
00:46 meppl because <autrijus> offline too, nowadays.
00:46 meppl o=I
00:46 jdv79 what are you guys talking about - weird stuff
00:46 clkao autrijus: leo is doing branched development, tell him about svk
00:46 meppl silly statement :o)
00:47 meppl my
00:47 autrijus clkao: I did, and I converted chip, but leo somehow had not. he's in magnet #parrot if you'd like to play missionary
00:47 clkao ENOTIME
00:48 autrijus neither do I. I need to find food. bbiab &
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01:10 svnbot6 r5300, clkao++ | Give -pgmc flag to ghc when CC is set.
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02:10 rafl Is there a perl6 specification in EBML or something similar available?
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02:13 QtPlatypus rafl: No
02:15 rafl :-/
02:21 QtPlatypus If you would like you can read the specifications and convert them to that form.
02:22 rafl I surely won't like to do that. :-)
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05:18 gaal morning!
05:19 QtPlatypus Morning
05:24 mugwump evening!
05:24 mugwump Or, should I say, Friday night!  :D
05:26 * mugwump runs off to see http://www.johnbutlertrio.com/
05:35 imMute still friday for another 25 minutes here
05:35 svnbot6 r5301, mugwump++ | End the horrid “field `_crypt_struct' has incomplete type” message!  Courtesy of Salvador Ortiz Garcia
05:35 gaal cool!
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06:13 svnbot6 r5302, autrijus++ | * add Salvador Ortiz Garcia to AUTHORS for the _crypt_struct fix.
06:13 svnbot6 r5302, autrijus++ | * a silly new retronym of Perl in README.  lwall said he like it.
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06:17 gaal lol # re: polyexirec-\s
06:17 autrijus :)
06:17 * autrijus runs to lunch
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07:21 theorbtw1 Oooh, yey, no more _crypt_struct junk!
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07:21 svnbot6 r5303, qtplatypus++ | Adding todo checks for "foo".trans()  code should follow
07:21 svnbot6 r5303, qtplatypus++ | shortly hopefully.
07:24 gaal autrijus, can you direct me to an intro text on forall? can't seem to find one.
07:25 gaal what i did find jump straight to rank-2 polymorphism, which i think is one rank above what i want :-)
07:25 QtPlatypus I thought that forall is now spelt for, or are you talking about something else?
07:25 gaal Qt, haskell :-)
07:25 QtPlatypus Arh
07:27 gaal ah! i think this may be useful: http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/type-extensions.html (sec. 7.4.1.4 especially)
07:27 gaal but where's a basic explanation of the forall keyword?
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08:25 nothingmuch morning
08:29 gaal hey nm
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08:36 nothingmuch cleanup time now
08:39 Darren_Duncan what a late night it is
08:40 nothingmuch gaal: m ward is ready
08:41 gaal m ward?
08:41 gaal where they keep monad-affected patients?
08:41 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/mward
08:41 osfameron has joined #perl6
08:41 nothingmuch no, it's a name
08:41 nothingmuch of an artis
08:42 nothingmuch whose CD I said I would rip for you
08:42 gaal kewl. :)
08:42 nothingmuch i forgot to tell crippple to make it abr 160, so I have no idea what bitrate it is
08:42 nothingmuch if it's too low, complain
08:42 nothingmuch if not, deal
08:43 gaal i doubt my shit ten-buck speakers can tell the difference
08:43 nothingmuch i need to vaccum anyway
08:43 nothingmuch ah, perfect =)
08:47 gaal i'm off till much later. see y'all. &
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08:51 theorbtw1 What sort of music, nm?
08:56 nothingmuch theorbtw1: i think if you take tom waits
08:56 nothingmuch and add a bit of a folkish/country attitude
08:57 nothingmuch err, the subset of tom waits that is "normal" ;-)
08:57 nothingmuch theorbtw1: try tracks 2 and 3, then 1... that pretty much covers the whole CD
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09:09 wolverian damn I hate downloading http directories
09:09 wolverian I also hate nosebleeds
09:09 * wolverian sleeps
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09:21 nothingmuch oh man!
09:22 nothingmuch perl6 has so many features that are turning out sort of half baked
09:22 theorbtw1 Hmm?
09:22 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
09:23 nothingmuch now MMD is going down the usefulness drain
09:23 theorbtwo Oh.
09:23 nothingmuch it's just a generator for big given/when statements
09:23 nothingmuch it's order sensitive
09:23 nothingmuch which sucks unless you have a proper compiler taking care of that stuff
09:24 theorbtwo NM: is C56E 126B C277 6DB7 237C 4A7C 542C 11C0 EBD2 7418 your correct fingerprint?
09:24 nothingmuch it's not hard to define 5-6 simple, logical rules for 'specicifity' of MMD parameter thingies
09:24 nothingmuch yes
09:24 nothingmuch but that may be just what I'm seeing on my side
09:24 nothingmuch it may have nothing to do with what you just typed
09:24 nothingmuch DUM DUM DUM!!!!
09:25 nothingmuch ... and for those 5-6 simple rules have order of definition be a tie breaker
09:25 theorbtwo I'd prefer two simple rules:
09:26 theorbtwo 1) The one with the shortest PIR wins.
09:26 nothingmuch but have a *REVERSE* order of definition scheme when it's not defined in the same block of code
09:26 theorbtwo 2) The one that was defined /latest/ wins.
09:26 nothingmuch shortest PIR?
09:26 nothingmuch i.e. "looks fastest"?
09:26 nothingmuch or 'looks simplest'?
09:26 nothingmuch or are you talking about the parameter stuff
09:27 theorbtwo Looks simplest.
09:27 nothingmuch hmm... i'm not sure about that
09:27 nothingmuch a longer PIR may be a simplified version
09:27 theorbtwo So $_ == 5 is presumably simpiler then $_ ~~ 5..10.
09:27 nothingmuch because it doesn't call out to many other helpers
09:27 nothingmuch oh, of the matching PIR?
09:27 theorbtwo Yeah.
09:28 nothingmuch not the body
09:28 nothingmuch okay
09:28 nothingmuch hmm... that may be unstable when the compiler changes
09:28 theorbtwo I meant PIL, not PIR.
09:28 theorbtwo Yes, it might.
09:28 theorbtwo I'm OK with that.
09:28 nothingmuch and you would need tests to make sure your dispatch really works like you meant
09:28 theorbtwo Ambiguity there should be rare.
09:28 nothingmuch hmm... but there can be weird surprises
09:29 nothingmuch remember that lots of "simple" things in perl 6 are complicated concepts with a lot of sugar
09:29 theorbtwo True enough, I suppose.
09:29 theorbtwo I think a rule that is somewhat chaotic will encourage people not to rely on it.
09:30 nothingmuch i dunno... i'm torn between the elegance of your heuristic.
09:30 nothingmuch (damn . key)
09:30 nothingmuch and the fact that it's a bit of a perl 5 ism
09:30 nothingmuch (think of the tokenizer adding scores.. that's scary)
09:30 nothingmuch plus I think that I would really really like to have reliance on MMD semantics
09:31 theorbtwo Oh, for parsing variables vs end-of-string in regexes?
09:32 nothingmuch i would say "for example"
09:32 nothingmuch because i've only heard of this mess, haven't seen it with my own eyes
09:33 theorbtwo I don't think it's as messy as you think it is.
09:33 theorbtwo But yeah, it's a bit of a mess when there's ambiguity.
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09:37 nothingmuch lightstep: hackathon TLV, july 21-23
09:37 nothingmuch gaal's house
09:37 nothingmuch are you in?
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09:39 nothingmuch okay, I have some semantics
09:39 nothingmuch i'll nopase
09:40 castaway_ what, who, where?
09:40 castaway_ hey nm
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09:42 lightstep nothingmuch, (sorry, netvision)
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09:42 lightstep nothingmuch, i'd love to, but i'm not really fluent in pugs any more. are there some papers to read to catch up?
09:44 nothingmuch lightstep: i doubt it
09:44 theorbtwo Try docs/talks/hw2005.{tex,txt}
09:44 nothingmuch but come anyway
09:44 nothingmuch oh, good suggestion
09:44 nothingmuch there is lots of peripheral work too
09:44 nothingmuch i think you should be very interested in PIL
09:45 * castaway nudges nm.
09:45 * nothingmuch gets nudged
09:45 ketamama has quit IRC (Client Quit)
09:45 castaway (ooh, uni-muenchen)
09:46 theorbtwo Hint: it's at gaal's house, where does gaal live?
09:46 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "Order of definition tie breaki" (40 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11623
09:46 nothingmuch Tel Aviv
09:46 nothingmuch i don't exactly know where
09:46 nothingmuch eek, i should have provided a summary
09:46 nothingmuch the summary is "MMD ordering semantics"
09:47 nothingmuch if anyone is grokking the width/height of junctions - please explain in your own words
09:47 nothingmuch i'm not satisfied with my splain
09:47 broquaint Is there no "standard" way to do MMD? Or does it vary from language to language?
09:47 nothingmuch broquaint: even if there were, perl has too much more to add
09:47 nothingmuch junctions
09:47 nothingmuch roles
09:48 nothingmuch where clauses
09:48 nothingmuch (i forgot them, let me fix)
09:48 broquaint But even still, I would've thought there'd be a standard model into which they could be incorporated, or am I hoping too much?
09:49 castaway bro!
09:49 theorbtwo quaint!
09:50 nothingmuch broquaint: right now they are going with order is everything
09:50 nothingmuch which i think really sucks
09:50 nothingmuch so I'm proposing my own
09:50 broquaint cast!
09:50 broquaint orb!
09:50 broquaint two!
09:50 broquaint away!
09:50 lightstep i heard CLOS also has mmd. what are the advantages of using definition-order over particularity-order?
09:51 theorbtwo I think you're misinterpreting, and it's only order-wins within where clauses.
09:51 theorbtwo lightstep: Ease of implementation when you can have arbitrarly complex where clauses.
09:51 theorbtwo IE it's easier to not solve the halting problem.
09:52 broquaint What do other MMD systems use?
09:52 wolverian inexact booleans? 0.5 true :)
09:52 lightstep CLOS looks for the most specific definition - the one with the closer superclasses for all parameters
09:54 theorbtwo That's good, when we are talking about subclass/superclass-based MMD.
09:54 broquaint I say we pass the decision off to a quantum calculation and let the universe decide!
09:54 theorbtwo But that's only one of the methods of multi-method displatch.
09:55 castaway displatch++
09:56 theorbtwo Broquaint, if you haven't yet been told, Jess has already been snatched up for September, and I'd rather not have a 2-hour commute, so you should probably find other people to fill your empty desks.
09:56 nothingmuch lightstep: particularity is desirable, but hard
09:56 nothingmuch swith MI and stuff
09:56 nothingmuch i put a proposal in docs/mmd_match_order.txt
09:56 nothingmuch which defines some sense of particularity for perl6, which i think is sane
09:56 broquaint Ok, theorbtwo :)
09:57 nothingmuch svk pushing right now
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09:57 wolverian nothingmuch, are you going to mail p6l about it?
09:57 nothingmuch wolverian: i'd like some pugs people feedback first
09:57 nothingmuch preferably people who tried to write some MMD in their heads
09:57 nothingmuch and who like parameter matching
09:57 nothingmuch <plug>and whove read Class::Events</plug>
09:57 svnbot6 r5304, nothingmuch++ |  r5348@syeeda:  nothingmuch | 2005-07-08 12:54:53 +0300
09:57 svnbot6 r5304, nothingmuch++ |  proposal for mmd match order
09:58 nothingmuch and who think AOP is scary, and we need some kind of better way to get some of it's benefits
09:58 nothingmuch oops, karma whoring
09:58 jabbot nothingmuch: whoring has neutral karma
09:58 nothingmuch heh
09:58 castaway what, he had empty desks??
09:58 nothingmuch i wonderf if there is a way to get svk to not do that... it's very ugly too
09:58 nothingmuch (by default)
09:59 theorbtwo I don't like the idea of extending it from files to compilation units; I don't like the idea of things changing because you decided to compile more at one bite for better optimization.
09:59 theorbtwo The junction thing seems complicated.
09:59 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i don't think that it's an optimization
10:00 nothingmuch i was trying to think up a scenario where a single block of source isn't the same file
10:00 theorbtwo Can't we just say that the nonspecificty of a junction is the sum of the nonspecificty of the alternatives of the junction?
10:00 nothingmuch and the junction thing is simple
10:00 nothingmuch that's exactly it
10:00 theorbtwo Oh.
10:00 theorbtwo It seems like a very long way of saying it.
10:00 castaway bro, which postcode is multimap in?
10:00 nothingmuch ((5|6)&(7|8)) is more specific than (5|6|7|8)
10:01 nothingmuch because the tree that the first one draws is dee
10:01 nothingmuch p
10:01 nothingmuch and the tree that the latter one darws is very shallow and wide
10:01 theorbtwo Oh.
10:01 theorbtwo I don't see why they should have different specificty.
10:01 nothingmuch the first one is not even logical
10:01 nothingmuch but it should try first and fail
10:02 nothingmuch since it has an & in it
10:02 nothingmuch the more &'s you have, and the more significant they are (higher in the heirarchy) the more "specific" the junction is, IMHO
10:02 theorbtwo Oh, now I see why that makes sense.
10:03 nothingmuch can you please try to rephrase
10:03 theorbtwo Saying "I'll take 1 or 2" means that you'd accept either of 2 items.  Saying "I need something that is both 1 and 2" means that you only have half an alternative.
10:03 nothingmuch and commit?
10:03 nothingmuch right
10:03 nothingmuch and this logic is nesting
10:03 nothingmuch since there are parenthesis and junctions containing junctions
10:03 nothingmuch okay, i have a better algorithm:
10:03 nothingmuch each value in a junction is 1
10:04 theorbtwo So the specificty of an or list is the sum of the specificties of it's elements.
10:04 nothingmuch each junction in a junction is it's own score
10:04 nothingmuch & is a sum
10:04 nothingmuch | is an average
10:04 theorbtwo I don't think you want average.
10:04 nothingmuch sum / number of elems, no?
10:04 theorbtwo 42 has a score of 1; 42|23 should have a score of 1/2, not 1.
10:04 nothingmuch right
10:05 nothingmuch okay, we need some sort of quantification for nesting
10:05 nothingmuch i'm in a bit of a rush
10:05 nothingmuch if you can think up an algorithm please add it
10:05 nothingmuch i'll try to think up something, but the house is not getting cleaned
10:05 lightstep i have another. weight of a value is 1, | is sum, & is min
10:05 nothingmuch min?
10:05 theorbtwo I think & wants to be 1/sum.
10:06 lightstep minimum
10:06 nothingmuch oh, and low score wins
10:06 lightstep so (1|2)&(3|4) weighs 2
10:06 nothingmuch okay
10:06 lightstep since you only have 2 real options
10:06 nothingmuch but arguably (1|2)&(3|4) is more particular than (1|2)&(any(-Inf..Inf)), but that's also 2
10:06 lightstep has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
10:07 theorbtwo (1|2) and (3|4) each weigh 2, so (1|2)&(3|4) would have a weight of 1/4.
10:07 nothingmuch lightstep: you can use screen+irssi with your account on my machine
10:07 nothingmuch and my junction causes a divide by zero error at runtime ;-)
10:07 nothingmuch err, compile time
10:08 nothingmuch anyway, we can find a nice algorithm
10:08 theorbtwo nothingmuch, it doesn't.
10:08 nothingmuch i was joking
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10:08 nothingmuch our algorithm needs to work on anything we throw at it, and it also needs to be very elegant
10:08 nothingmuch we'll find one... nevermind
10:09 theorbtwo 1|2 has a weight of 2 (again), any(-Inf..Inf) has a weight of 1/Inf, which is +NaN... hm, which isn't much better.
10:09 nothingmuch any(-Inf..Inf) has a weight of Inf
10:09 nothingmuch if | is sum
10:09 theorbtwo erxz_paste, right, sorry.
10:09 theorbtwo Err, right, sorry.
10:10 nothingmuch lightstep: did you get my line about screen+irssi?
10:10 theorbtwo The 1/inf doesn't come in until the next step: 1/(2+Inf)
10:10 lightstep choosing lower weights is better for this reason. but i think maybe the weight (at least of numbers) should be a range
10:10 lightstep nothingmuch, no' i'll backlog now
10:10 nothingmuch ssh to pasta, type 'screen -U irssi'
10:10 nothingmuch then type '/server freenode'
10:10 nothingmuch then type '/join perl6'
10:11 nothingmuch and every time your connection dies, ssh to pasta again, and type 'screen -U -d -r', it'll be the same irssi
10:11 castaway .oO( -U ?)
10:11 lightstep i have screen&irssi here, too
10:11 nothingmuch castaway: unicode
10:11 nothingmuch lightstep: but do you have a proper connection? ;-)
10:11 wolverian what, your distro doesn't use it by default? :)
10:11 castaway Oh, utf8 .. neat
10:11 nothingmuch wolverian: maybe it does
10:12 nothingmuch wolverian: but OSX doesn't, which is why I use it always
10:12 lightstep nothingmuch, as i said, nietvision
10:12 nothingmuch lightstep: right, but running screen on a box in IL won't be too slow
10:12 nothingmuch but I do have a reliable connection
10:12 nothingmuch i'm also in NV, so the lag shouldn't be noticable
10:12 nothingmuch but I have a business line
10:12 theorbtwo Tëst.
10:12 wolverian nothingmuch, hmm, that's odd. isn't it utf8 on the gui level?
10:13 theorbtwo Was that an e-umlout for everybody?
10:13 nothingmuch anywho, lightstep, theorbtwo: i do think that a short circuiting junction scoring algo is not good enough
10:13 lightstep irssi reconnects anyway
10:13 wolverian theorbtwo, here it was
10:13 nothingmuch wolverian: screen can fudge it down to ascii/isoxxxx if needed
10:13 castaway gui? irssi is console
10:13 nothingmuch theorbtwo: i saw the umlaut
10:13 theorbtwo Short-circuiting?
10:13 theorbtwo OK then.
10:13 nothingmuch lightstep: but you don'
10:13 wolverian castaway, yes, I was wondering about consistency between console and gui
10:13 castaway ah, well mine appears to be supporting it anyway.. (after switching putty over ,)
10:13 theorbtwo I don't need a -U when in a utf8 locale on debian.
10:13 nothingmuch t get a consistent backlog
10:13 lightstep oh, i get it. i'll do that
10:14 nothingmuch you should also be able to use feather, but the link to it might be slow
10:14 castaway who uses a gui, these days? :)
10:14 nothingmuch anywho, i'm off
10:14 nothingmuch castaway: what about those days?
10:14 theorbtwo Have fun cleaning house.
10:14 castaway :)
10:14 * castaway whistles innocently
10:15 wolverian castaway, hmm. I do, because I haven't been able to config ion3 to my liking. :)
10:15 castaway (green-screens, yeah :9
10:22 theorbtwo Ah, good, 1/inf is 0 in Haskell.
10:22 lightste1 has joined #perl6
10:24 * theorbtwo boggles... when was our GPS 38 meters /below/ sea level?
10:26 castaway Ummmmm
10:26 castaway when it was on?
10:26 castaway (ok silly question)
10:27 castaway figure out where that is, maybe then you'll know ,)
10:27 castaway Im going to guess canada
10:27 castaway stuff the coords in google
10:32 theorbtwo Northern germany.
10:32 theorbtwo It's old enough that it's lost the time.
10:32 lightste1 castaway, you can't know the geographic position based on the latitude
10:32 theorbtwo You can't?
10:33 theorbtwo I have a latitude/longitude/altitude triple, that should pretty well cover it.
10:33 castaway gimme the url?
10:33 theorbtwo http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.34219,10.73369
10:33 lightste1 oh, i didn't see the fist two (and i meant altitude)
10:34 castaway hmm, that didnt pinpoint much
10:34 theorbtwo Yes it did, you just have to hit + a lot.
10:34 theorbtwo N53 20 31.9     E10 44 01.3     -38.3265380859 m altitude
10:35 castaway thats in one of the saved trips?
10:35 theorbtwo 16-June-01, the last point given.
10:35 castaway June, hmm, wasnt Flensburg then
10:35 castaway Must be.. whatsit..
10:36 rafl Is operator overloading currently broken?
10:36 osfameron $fh.pos = 10`bytes # cool, is n`units a general purpose thing?
10:37 theorbtwo It's meant to be, osfameron.
10:38 osfameron cool
10:39 broquaint What's with the backtick in 10`bytes?
10:40 QtPlatypus The units operator.
10:40 osfameron where is it specced/discussed ?
10:41 QtPlatypus In usenet discussions.
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10:43 lightste1 is now known as lightstep
10:56 autrijus gaal: "Sexy types in action" or just google for "sexy types"
11:05 nothingmuch autrijus: docs/mmd_match_order.txt
11:05 nothingmuch very short
11:09 autrijus lookin'
11:09 autrijus nothingmuch: er
11:09 autrijus Current defined semantics are: matches are tried in order of definition.
11:09 autrijus this is not true
11:10 autrijus it's _only_ order of defition for constraint types.
11:10 autrijus that is "where" clauses
11:10 autrijus including value-based MMDs
11:10 nothingmuch ugh
11:10 nothingmuch what about type distance
11:10 nothingmuch this is getting too complicated
11:10 autrijus er, no, just two things
11:10 nothingmuch i mean unintuitive
11:11 autrijus static (type-distance) checks are tried first
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11:11 nothingmuch even if sub foo (1) is sub foo (Int where { $_ == 1 }) behind the scenes, it's odd
11:11 autrijus with duplicates rejected
11:11 autrijus dynamic (value-based constraints) are then broken as caseof statements
11:11 autrijus that's all
11:11 nothingmuch could you look at the proposed semantics and see if the make sense
11:12 rafl Is someone woring on an XML Parser in perl6?
11:13 nothingmuch rafl: to the best of my knowlege no
11:13 rafl OK. So I think I'll start with that now.
11:13 nothingmuch i'd port XML::SAX to perl 6, and hook in a haskell XML parser to make it fast
11:14 nothingmuch autrijus:
11:14 nothingmuch ?
11:15 nothingmuch how far is it from my understanding of current type distance semantics, etc?
11:15 nothingmuch because I have no idea where that is specced
11:16 nothingmuch and I still think that order of definition for values is stupid
11:16 autrijus k I'll look at it; I'll be back in a bit
11:16 nothingmuch because if you are matching on a range, and on a value, then presumably the value in the range is a special case to simplify/optimize
11:16 nothingmuch and you can't add optimization to other people's code, unless you edit it, this way
11:32 Aragone is now known as Arathorn
11:32 svnbot6 r5305, nothingmuch++ |  r5350@syeeda:  nothingmuch | 2005-07-08 14:31:43 +0300
11:32 svnbot6 r5305, nothingmuch++ |  explain more about & and depth
11:32 nothingmuch crap
11:32 nothingmuch shell alias
11:37 masak nothingmuch: i don't know if it matters much, but i would think mmd_match_order.txt belongs in docs/notes/
11:41 * castaway kicks self.. the gps data from the canoe trip is gone
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12:08 rafl nothingmuch: Where's the code for your XML::SAX port?
12:08 autrijus masak: I moved it to notes/.
12:08 elmex has joined #perl6
12:08 autrijus I am not sure where docs/SHOT_IN_THE_FOOT belongs. ideas?
12:08 autrijus docs/misc/? docs/humour/?
12:09 autrijus if there's no better ideas I'll leave it in docs/
12:09 castaway we can shoot ourselves in the foot with p6 already? :)
12:11 * theorbtwo thinks that was implemented back on day 1.
12:11 autrijus castaway: that's the plan according to mugwump
12:11 svnbot6 r5306, autrijus++ | * reorganize notes into notes/.  not sure what to do with SHOT_IN_THE_FOOT...
12:11 castaway laudible goal :)
12:11 elmex has quit IRC (Client Quit)
12:13 kolibrie autrijus: welcome back to the land of the living
12:13 castaway he was dead?
12:13 kolibrie deep sleep
12:13 kolibrie for days, it seems
12:14 Arathorn lying on top of a mountain somewhere, waiting to be rescued by an eagle? O:)
12:14 kolibrie something like that
12:17 autrijus yeah :)
12:17 autrijus kolibrie: I'm glad to be back :)
12:17 kolibrie :)
12:18 kolibrie we're glad to have you, and renewed and all that - white wizard or something
12:18 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
12:18 autrijus I was autrijus the colorless. Now I'm autrijus the chromatic!
12:18 autrijus er, probably not
12:19 Arathorn i think chromatic might have prior art on that one ;)
12:19 dmo has quit IRC ()
12:20 Arathorn autrijus the opaque, perhaps... or the translucent...
12:20 * Arathorn waffles off to lunch
12:24 nothingmuch rafl: i haven't ported XML::SAX
12:24 nothingmuch it's just what I would have started with given the will to do it
12:25 rafl nothingmuch: Oh, sorry. I didn't read careful enough.
12:25 nothingmuch =)
12:32 dmo has joined #perl6
12:32 Limbic_Region does that mean chromatic can change colors too?
12:33 Limbic_Region salutations all btw
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13:03 rafl Is there already a function in a Perl6 module that can give me the name of the directory a given file is in?
13:03 autrijus rafl: splitpath in File::Spec?
13:04 Aankhen`` Hiya autrijus.
13:04 rafl autrijus: Right, thanks.
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13:35 nothingmuch hola robkinyon
13:35 robkinyon heyla, nothingmuch
13:35 robkinyon stevan told me about your crazy P6 plans
13:35 robkinyon :-)
13:36 nothingmuch what crazy plans?
13:36 nothingmuch no, that didn't come out right
13:36 nothingmuch which crazy plans? I have several =)
13:37 robkinyon aren't you involved in the PIL -> P5 effort?
13:37 nothingmuch yep, sort of
13:37 nothingmuch i'm thinking in a diff direction now, and not writing code at the moment
13:38 robkinyon wow, a hacker who stops and thinks
13:38 robkinyon next, you're going to tell me that you're writing down a design or something!
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13:40 svnbot6 r5307, nothingmuch++ | stupid sentance in mmd order notes
13:40 svnbot6 r5308, nothingmuch++ | CHange bullet formatting - it isn't substeps, it's just details of matching
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13:45 nothingmuch robkinyon: eh... =)
13:45 nothingmuch robkinyon: i think I would like PIL trees to contain combinator objects, and leaf nodes
13:45 svnbot6 r5309, nothingmuch++ | I was overzealous with the bullets... Type matching *does* have substeps that
13:45 svnbot6 r5309, nothingmuch++ | define the matching of classes, superclasses and roles.
13:45 nothingmuch leafnodes know how to stringify
13:46 nothingmuch combinators know how to stringify a combination
13:46 nothingmuch without a sort of big case statement for composing a tree - it's just plain old PIL
13:46 nothingmuch this puts an emphasis on the polymorphic properties of the PIL structure, and should force us to implement the runtime better
13:48 robkinyon you're actually speaking greek to me right now
13:48 robkinyon i don't know anything about PIL other than it's a silver bullet to P6 parsing
13:48 * robkinyon has been playing in JSland, not P6land. :-)
13:49 nothingmuch jsland... eep
13:49 nothingmuch js was alwayssufferring for me
13:50 robkinyon with JSAN, that should change
13:50 robkinyon www.openjsan.org
13:50 nothingmuch i hope =)
13:50 robkinyon Once it gets off the ground, it will be pretty amazing
13:51 * nothingmuch is slowly getting used to his 'svk push --verbatim' alias
13:51 nothingmuch robkinyon: if you want to get into a big bad wad of perl6 i'm nitpicking about: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/notes/mmd_match_order.txt
13:51 nothingmuch support me on p6l ;-)
13:52 nothingmuch wait, it hasn't finished pushing yet
13:52 nothingmuch ok, now it's up
13:56 * robkinyon is running out of available brainslots
13:56 svnbot6 r5310, nothingmuch++ | Word wrap, and explanation of what is a tie for roles in type matching
13:58 nothingmuch parameter coercion also discussed
13:58 svnbot6 r5311, nothingmuch++ | Detailed process of MMD parameter coercion
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14:02 nothingmuch A
14:03 * QtPlatypus watches the Tour and ponders implementing a verion of boids with bikecycles.
14:11 svnbot6 r5312, nothingmuch++ | further discussion of coercion semantics with 'is rw' trait
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14:39 svnbot6 r5313, fglock++ | Set::Functional::Span almost done
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14:54 svnbot6 r5314, fglock++ | renamed some classes
14:58 * Limbic_Region notes that even with the spaceship parsing bugs fixed there are more to do
15:03 Limbic_Region ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1; } 1..12; %ball{4} = .9; my $res = [+] %hash{1..4} <=> %hash{5..8}; $res
15:03 evalbot6 Error: Undeclared variable: "%ball"
15:04 Limbic_Region ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1; } 1..12; %hash{4} = .9; my $res = [+] %hash{1..4} <=> %hash{5..8}; $res
15:04 evalbot6 \0
15:04 Limbic_Region those two things aren't equal
15:04 Limbic_Region ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1; } 1..12; %hash{4} = .9; my $res = ([+] %hash{1..4} <=> [+] %hash{5..8}); $res
15:04 evalbot6 \0
15:05 Limbic_Region neither are those (helps when you fix the typo)
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15:05 Limbic_Region actually - it is the pugsbugs.t tests that are wrong - autrijus - you about?
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15:06 Limbic_Region I am trying to figure out if autrijus changed the tests so they would pass for the release or if he disagrees with what the results should be
15:08 Limbic_Region grrrr
15:09 Khisanth eh? it's suppose to round automatically?
15:09 Limbic_Region no
15:09 Limbic_Region I think autrijus misunderstood what the test results should have yielded
15:09 Limbic_Region since they are still not parsing correctly
15:10 Limbic_Region the tests were all originally -1 since the ball on the lhs had been made to be light
15:10 Limbic_Region when autrijus "fixed" the bug, he changed the test to 0 (equal) - which they shouldn't be
15:11 Limbic_Region so the bug isn't fixed but the tests pass
15:11 Arathorn ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1 } 1..12; %hash{4} = 0.9; my $res = ( ([+] %hash{1..4}) <=> ([+] %hash{5..8}) ); $res
15:12 evalbot6 Error: cannot cast from VList [VInt 1,VInt 2,VInt 3,VInt 4,VInt 5,VInt 6,VInt 7,VInt 8,VInt 9,VInt 10,VInt 11,VInt 12] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
15:12 * Arathorn blinks
15:12 Arathorn so much for that experiment, then
15:12 Limbic_Region Arathorn - the ; in the map block is required
15:12 Arathorn oh, ok - is that a feature?
15:12 Limbic_Region and fwiw - that will work
15:12 Arathorn ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1; } 1..12; %hash{4} = 0.9; my $res = ( ([+] %hash{1..4}) <=> ([+] %hash{5..8}) ); $res
15:12 evalbot6 \-1
15:12 Limbic_Region which is the way I have the code running now
15:13 Limbic_Region see t/pugsbugs/parsing_spaceship.t for other examples of b0rk behavior
15:13 Arathorn there's no way in hell i could wrap my head around the precedence of the [+]s without brackets anyway..
15:13 * Arathorn looks
15:14 Limbic_Region the outter parens aren't necessary btw
15:14 Limbic_Region ?eval my %hash = map { $_ => 1; } 1..12; %hash{4} = .9; my $res = ([+] %hash{1..4}) <=> ([+] %hash{5..8}); $res
15:14 evalbot6 \-1
15:16 Limbic_Region I am hesitent to change the tests back since he added another test too which I am not sure how it should behave
15:16 rafl How do I write a static method with perl6?
15:17 Arathorn the [0] <=> [1] one?
15:17 Limbic_Region yeah
15:17 Limbic_Region he wrote the test and had the desired result as being equal
15:17 Limbic_Region that doesn't seem right to me
15:18 Limbic_Region if anything, I would think it should be -1
15:18 Limbic_Region but if that creates an anon array
15:18 Limbic_Region and you consider autoderefing
15:18 QtPlatypus ?eval [0]
15:18 Limbic_Region who knows
15:18 evalbot6 [0]
15:18 QtPlatypus ?eval [1]
15:18 Limbic_Region helpful huh QtPlaytypus
15:18 evalbot6 [1]
15:19 QtPlatypus ?eval [0]<[1]
15:19 evalbot6 bool::false
15:19 QtPlatypus ?eval [0]>[1]
15:19 evalbot6 bool::false
15:19 Limbic_Region ?eval [0] == [1]
15:19 QtPlatypus ?eval [0]==[1]
15:19 evalbot6 bool::true
15:19 evalbot6 bool::true
15:19 QtPlatypus ?eval +[0]
15:19 evalbot6 1
15:19 QtPlatypus ?eval +[1]
15:19 evalbot6 1
15:19 Limbic_Region ok - well it still doesn't make any sense to me
15:20 QtPlatypus Ok now it makes sence
15:20 QtPlatypus ?eval [0,0] <=> [0]
15:20 evalbot6 1
15:20 QtPlatypus ?eval [0] <=> [0,0]
15:20 evalbot6 -1
15:21 Khisanth this is comparing the size of the arrays?
15:22 QtPlatypus looks like it
15:22 Limbic_Region right QtPlatypus - I understood why it may work out that way
15:22 Limbic_Region but that wouldn't have exposed the bug in the first place
15:22 Limbic_Region IOW - there wasn't an issue when the two sides were equal
15:22 Limbic_Region so I am confused as to why the test got added (in the state it did anyway)
15:23 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
15:23 Limbic_Region perhaps autrijus found something else when he was bughunting - will have to wait to ask him
15:25 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
15:25 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 2 hours 21 minutes 16 seconds ago
15:25 Limbic_Region well - he recently journaled
15:25 dmo has left
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15:30 * nothingmuch is an amazing ascii artist
15:30 nothingmuch very patient
15:30 nothingmuch tries over and over
15:30 nothingmuch the output is not amazing, but the process is ;-)
15:31 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - are you the guy who invented a programming language that involved crayons and scribbling?
15:31 * Arathorn grins wryly at http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=27415&amp;cid=41722
15:32 nothingmuch nope
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15:37 * Coke yawns
15:40 nothingmuch thomas posted an interesting link
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16:04 svnbot6 r5315, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - we now have proper SUPER:: calls, no more of that SUPER(method) stuff; changed all the tests to reflect as well; (in case anyone is wondering, look right above AUTOLOAD in Perl6::Object to see how this was done, really very simple actually);
16:04 svnbot6 r5316, fglock++ | Span passes some tests
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16:08 nothingmuch stevan: ping
16:13 stevan hey
16:14 nothingmuch hola
16:14 stevan nothingmuch: back on your MMD soapbox I see :)
16:14 * nothingmuch is thinking maybe a simple 'value' is median particularity for the junction case
16:14 stevan FWIW, I agree with you (things rea too complex)
16:14 nothingmuch ah
16:14 nothingmuch but appearantly the cabal is going to simplify some aspects a lot more than I thought
16:14 nothingmuch IMHO to the point of uselessness
16:14 stevan if I cannot figure out which method MMD will choose, then its not worth it
16:15 nothingmuch since value matches in MMD will be boiled down to a given/when, executed in order of definition
16:15 nothingmuch you can figure it out
16:15 stevan I am not sure I like the order of defintion thing
16:15 stevan but I need to understand it more
16:15 nothingmuch docs/notes/mmd_match_order.txt - my proposal
16:15 cventers has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:15 stevan yes I saw
16:16 nothingmuch larry's proposal:
16:16 nothingmuch (to the best of my knowlege)
16:16 nothingmuch type constraints are chosen using type distance
16:16 stevan (that makes sense)
16:16 nothingmuch (i hope my 4th step is incorperated, because anything more complex is not easily calculated)
16:17 nothingmuch value constraints are taken in their order of definition
16:17 robkinyon so, depending on how classes are loaded, MMD might change?
16:17 stevan ok, let me read your proposal again
16:17 stevan robkinyon: dont forget about the phase of the moon
16:17 nothingmuch and they are simply matches using a big 'given / when' clause
16:17 stevan oh and $larry[0]s whim as well :P
16:17 nothingmuch robkinyon: yes, but not for type dispatch
16:17 nothingmuch which is OK
16:17 stevan the given/when thing is not okay IMO
16:17 robkinyon anything that depends on order of load is inherently unstable
16:17 stevan maybe as the last thing in a type breaker
16:18 * stevan reads nothingmuch's proposal &
16:18 nothingmuch i think it should be a tie breaker, but I have yet to find tye cases
16:18 robkinyon Let me repeat ... "Anything that depends on order of load in any fashion is inherently unstable"
16:18 robkinyon tie breaker or not, it's irrelevant
16:18 nothingmuch except for 5 is better than 1..10, which I define as resolved by particularity
16:19 nothingmuch robkinyon: i thik I agree
16:19 nothingmuch there aren't enough ties to really matter, and if they are rare, they will be surprises, and should be errors
16:19 robkinyon MMD should be able to pick the best case or fail dramatically
16:19 robkinyon as in flashing lights and sirens
16:20 robkinyon either way, i have to go eat lunch.
16:20 * robkinyon waves
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16:22 stevan nothingmuch: in your proposal
16:22 stevan I dont understand steps 1 - 3
16:23 nothingmuch sub fun (5) { } is matched by the first step
16:23 stevan ??
16:23 nothingmuch sub fun (1 .. 10) { } by the second
16:23 stevan WTF is sub foo (5) {}
16:23 nothingmuch it defines the action 'foo' on parameters whose value is '5'
16:23 nothingmuch sub factorial (1) { 1 }
16:23 nothingmuch makes sense?
16:23 stevan how is that useful?
16:23 stevan oh
16:23 nothingmuch brb
16:23 stevan uhm
16:24 stevan that makes sense, but that makes more sense as :
16:24 stevan multi sub factorial ($num where { $num == 1 }) { 1 }
16:24 stevan My "where" syntax is rusty
16:24 stevan but thats basically how I see that
16:24 stevan you add a guard to it
16:24 stevan like in ML or Erlang
16:26 stevan fun factorial n = if n=0 then 1 else n * factorial(n-1)
16:26 stevan that is one way to do it in ML
16:26 stevan but the better way it to use the guard clause
16:27 stevan fun factorial 1 = 1
16:28 stevan  | factorial n = n * factorial(n-1)
16:28 stevan my understanding of that is not that the first guard's arg is 1
16:28 stevan but that it is sugar to hide some kind of where { $n = 1 } clause
16:32 nothingmuch back
16:32 nothingmuch right but if there is a 'where' clause then it's not assured to be specific
16:32 nothingmuch and furthermore it's very very hard to optimize
16:33 nothingmuch if you define sub factorial ($num where { $num ~~ 1 .. 10 }) { }, sub factorial ($num where { $num == 1 }) { }
16:33 nothingmuch which is more specific?
16:33 nothingmuch that is, in a way, indistinguishable from larry's proposal, which I don't like
16:34 QtPlatypus has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
16:36 stevan hmm
16:36 stevan ok
16:36 stevan point taken there
16:37 stevan I suppose for my purposes (which of course are the most important :P) I want type dispatching to be of the highest priority
16:38 nothingmuch type dispatching is important, but when optimizing for simplicity or speed, you can have both
16:38 nothingmuch and they work together well
16:38 nothingmuch that's when values come in
16:38 nothingmuch i doubt I will use them a lot
16:38 nothingmuch but for when I do want them, this is a lifesaver
16:38 nothingmuch dinner time
16:39 stevan careful not so set the house on fire again :P
16:40 stevan jabbot seen luqui?
16:40 Limbic_Region seen luqui
16:40 jabbot Limbic_Region: luqui was seen 4 days 14 hours 24 minutes 12 seconds ago
16:41 stevan thank you Limbic_Region :)
16:41 Limbic_Region walang anuman stevan
16:41 stevan Luke is such a slacker :P
16:45 * Limbic_Region has great admiration for mere mortals that continue to press for design decisions and argue for a specific direction to be chosen
16:45 Limbic_Region admittedly I don't know much about language design but I find the whole process way too energy draining
16:46 stevan Limbic_Region: that is how I thought on day one of the hackathin
16:46 stevan s/thin/thon/
16:46 stevan but by day 3 I suddenly found I had opinions :)
16:46 Limbic_Region clear definitive answers are far and few between
16:47 stevan Limbic_Region: this is the nature of @Larry
16:47 stevan :)
16:47 Limbic_Region and the propensity to lose sight of the original question in favor of some semi-related tangent is just too darn frustrating
16:47 stevan Limbic_Region: design by highly chaotic committee :)
16:47 Limbic_Region *shrug* - all it means is that there is 1 less worker bee in the mix
16:48 Limbic_Region I have wanted to help - several times
16:48 stevan Limbic_Region: this is why it was soo good that Larry came to the hackathon
16:48 stevan autrijus could corner him :)
16:48 stevan the first night was absolutely insane
16:48 Limbic_Region stevan - and $larry has never been known to change his mind or misremember
16:49 Limbic_Region I don't want to sound like I am complaining - I am very much in awe of the design team as well as the pugs team
16:49 Limbic_Region it just means that "helping out" is inaccessible to me
16:49 stevan Limbic_Region: you are complaining, but about something which more people *should* be complaining about
16:49 stevan I think the design docs really need updating
16:50 Limbic_Region I will stick to writing p6 code that breaks pugs and commit tests exposing the bugs
16:50 stevan like ****REALLY****
16:50 stevan :)
16:50 Limbic_Region me too
16:50 Limbic_Region I thought I had a good reference for stubbing them out
16:50 stevan Limbic_Region: I think your advocacy efforts are good too
16:50 Limbic_Region turns out that it wasn't
16:50 Limbic_Region asked for more reference material - and found that it was in the collective @larry's head
16:51 stevan eventually it might help turn up the one person crazy enough to sift through months of p6l and update the docs
16:51 Limbic_Region oh - and advocacy - I am fairly effective at that
16:52 Limbic_Region so when is the next hackathon that autrijus chip and larry will be at again together?
16:53 stevan chip wasnt there
16:53 stevan he couldnt make it, I think something related to the geeksunite.com stuff
16:53 ingy hi stevan
16:53 stevan hey ingy
16:54 stevan Limbic_Region: I am not sure if autrijus is going to OSCON, but that would be the next likely place
16:54 stevan hows tricks ingy?
16:55 Limbic_Region OSCON is too soon for me to be able to go, but now that Jean is likely not to have any problems re-entering the country I am able to travel
16:55 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:56 ingy pretty good. I'm in St Louis for boojum's bday
16:56 stevan ingy: nice
16:57 stevan Limbic_Region: I cant do OSCON either, YAPC::NA exhausted my brownie points with the wife :)
16:59 Ovid has joined #perl6
16:59 kolibrie stevan: that's too bad
17:00 Ovid obra:  you there?
17:00 obra yes
17:01 Coke has joined #perl6
17:01 Ovid I'm working with HTTP::Server::Simple and it's causing a problem with another script when I kill that server:   "system $^X, $teardown" fails and returns with "No Child Processes".
17:02 Ovid Essentially, I background that server and later kill 9 it, but a test script later on executes an unrelated system call that returns the No Child Processes message.  If I get rid of HTTP::Server::Simple, the problem goes away.
17:02 obra "test script later" meaning something running under H::S::S?
17:03 obra you know it forks, right? so you may need to be doing something from the parent, not the forked child.
17:03 Ovid No.  HSS is run in one test scripts and then killed in that test script.  Later on, a program which calls the test script is getting that error message.
17:04 Ovid Well, I have a $server->background command and later, in the parent, I issue a kill 9.  Is this wrong?
17:04 obra somewhat
17:04 Ovid (And thanks for HSS, by the way.  Great module)
17:04 obra perhaps you want Test::HTTP::Server::Simple to cleanly kill the server ;)
17:04 obra thanks. I'm glad you find it useful
17:05 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (::class) { ::class.new(10) }; foo(Int)
17:05 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ")" expecting word character, "?", "*", "+", "++" or parameter name
17:05 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Any ::class) { ::class.new(10) }; foo(Int)
17:05 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&new"
17:05 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Any ::class) { ::class }; foo(Int)
17:05 evalbot6 ::class
17:06 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Any ::class) { ::class.ref }; foo(Int)
17:06 Limbic_Region kill 9 is almost never the right thing to do
17:06 evalbot6 ::Type
17:07 Aankhen`` ?eval my %foo = (a => "b", c => "d"); gather { take ($k, $v) for %foo.kv -> $k, $kv; }
17:07 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting operator, ";" or "}"
17:07 Aankhen`` ?eval my %foo = (a => "b", c => "d"); ($k, $v) for %foo.kv -> $k, $v
17:07 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, ";" or end of input
17:08 Ovid Thanks for the help, obra.  I'll try that module.
17:08 Ovid Limbic_Region: kill 9 seemed wrong, but that's what is being done in the tests for HTTP::Server::Simple.  I just used those as my guide.
17:11 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
17:11 * nothingmuch announce his return frm doing the dishes
17:12 nothingmuch stevan: ping
17:12 chip seen autrijus
17:12 jabbot chip: autrijus was seen 4 hours 8 minutes 31 seconds ago
17:12 svnbot6 r5317, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Headers:
17:12 svnbot6 r5317, Aankhen++ | * made &BUILD a submethod.
17:12 svnbot6 r5317, Aankhen++ | * added &redirect (class method) as equivalent for &CGI::redirect.
17:12 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:12 Aankhen`` WB nothing_pasta.
17:12 Aankhen`` Er, nothingmuch.
17:12 chip Anybody know offhand the way you're supposed to specify the difference between named parameters and pairs to be passed into e.g. a slurpy array?
17:13 Aankhen`` foo(a => "b", c => "d"); # named parameters
17:13 Aankhen`` foo(slurpy_array => (a => "b", c => "d")); # slurpy array
17:13 Aankhen`` Or, better:
17:14 Aankhen`` foo() <== (a => "b", c => "d");
17:14 chip OK, thanks, but consider the case when the declaration of foo is not in scope
17:14 chip Is the latter syntax guaranteed to work anyway?
17:15 chip And given   sub foo($a,$b,$c)   is it even legal to say    foo(c=>3, 1)   ?  If so, what does it mean?
17:15 nothingmuch chip: that assumes the parameter name slurpy_array, e.g. sub foo (*@slurpy_array)
17:15 Aankhen`` I'm lagging, so I'm not sure which one you mean by "the latter".  The <== form?
17:16 nothingmuch i'm not sure
17:16 Aankhen`` chip >> foo(c=>3, 1) is not legal.
17:16 nothingmuch maybe the pair is flattenned
17:16 Ovid Test::HTTP::Server::Simple doesn't play well with Test::Class :(
17:16 chip Aankhen``: yes, the <== form.  I assume it has to work even if sub foo isn't declared yet
17:16 nothingmuch no, it probably isn't
17:16 Aankhen`` You have to specify parameters in this order: required parameters, optional parameters, and then named parameters.
17:16 obra Ovid: how so?
17:16 nothingmuch oh, <== is basically 'stuff these into the first slurpy thing'
17:16 nothingmuch or maybe the only slurpy thing
17:17 chip That implies that there is some way to name "the first slurpy thing" in the calling convention whether or not the declaration of &foo is available.  Probably not my (Parrot's) problem though.
17:17 Aankhen`` S06: "The variadic array of a subroutine call can be passed in separately from the normal argument list, by using either of the "pipe" operators: <== or ==>."
17:17 Ovid It works with started_ok, but that has to go into the Test(startup) method, but that method is not allowed to have tests.  This causes the test script to fail even though all tests pass.
17:17 chip Aankhen``: thanks
17:17 svnbot6 r5318, Aankhen++ | * made HTTP::Request compile.
17:17 Aankhen`` No prob.
17:17 Ovid Test(startup) is called only once at runtime.
17:17 theorbtwo Anybody with a paid LJ account?  http://livejournal.com/syn/, fill in http://use.perl.org/~leo/journal/rss/ in the form at the bottom.
17:17 obra patches appreciated
17:17 rafl has joined #perl6
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17:18 Aankhen`` Hmm, strange... could anyone try tracking down the parsing bug in ext/libwww-perl/lib/HTTP/Response.pm?
17:18 Ovid obra:  I don't know much about signals, hence my problem.  I'll keep digging, though.
17:19 Aankhen`` Err.
17:19 Aankhen`` Cancel that order!
17:20 stevan nothingmuch: pong
17:21 nothingmuch hey stevan
17:21 Aankhen`` Line 58 of HTTP::Status is a really nice replacement for concatenating strings of code and eval()ing them, IMHO.
17:21 nothingmuch want to continue our discussion?
17:21 broquaint has quit IRC ("teh home")
17:21 stevan nothingmuch: sure
17:21 Aankhen`` (that, of course, assumes it will work as expected :-P)
17:22 stevan nothingmuch: even better, how about we prototype stuff in the metamodel?
17:22 nothingmuch that was what I was trying to make you do =)
17:22 stevan the ::Method classes could use some work
17:22 nothingmuch specifically the type based multimethod
17:22 stevan nothingmuch: uhm
17:22 nothingmuch i'll implement code signatures
17:22 stevan nothingmuch: okay, we can do that
17:25 stevan nothingmuch: why don't you sketch out the signature part first
17:25 stevan I need to see what you are thinking
17:25 nothingmuch okay
17:25 nothingmuch did you grok step 4?
17:25 stevan yes
17:26 stevan how/when do you want to measure type distance?
17:26 stevan in other words, should I add something to the metamodel?
17:26 stevan or the ::MetaClass to be exact
17:26 nothingmuch this is easy
17:26 stevan I know
17:26 nothingmuch you just don't allow MI
17:27 stevan but who's responsibility is it
17:27 nothingmuch and type distance is the number of ISAs you traverse to get to the thing
17:27 stevan you can still do it with MI
17:27 nothingmuch uh, maybe the metamodel can have a 'link' method
17:27 nothingmuch you can do that with MI
17:27 nothingmuch but if you have a shortname
17:27 nothingmuch let's look at this:
17:27 svnbot6 r5319, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Response should `require` URI instead of `use`ing it.
17:27 nothingmuch method bark (Animal) { print "moo" }
17:27 nothingmuch method bark (Dog) { print "moo" }
17:27 nothingmuch that's OK, Dog is a specification
17:28 nothingmuch but let's say you have a Chiadog
17:28 nothingmuch which also inherits Tree
17:28 * chip . o O ( not "multi method"? )
17:28 nothingmuch method bark (Tree)
17:28 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { method bar () { ./baz(); } method baz () { "&baz was called"; } }; Foo.new.bar
17:28 evalbot6 '&baz was called'
17:28 nothingmuch i don't write multi method as a political statement ;-)
17:28 stevan :D
17:28 b6s has quit IRC (orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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17:29 nothingmuch anyway, if there was no 'bark' on 'Dog', only 'Tree' and 'Animal'
17:29 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { method bar () { .baz(); } method baz () { "&baz was called"; } }; Foo.new.bar
17:29 evalbot6 '&baz was called'
17:29 Ovid obra:  Test::HTTP::Server::Simple can work with Test::Class.  My bad.  Doesn't solve the problem, but at least it's cleaner than what I had.
17:29 nothingmuch or in that sense, there were any two superclasses, from separate lineages, competing for an argument
17:29 nothingmuch then this is an error
17:29 nothingmuch if it can be detected by the compiler pre-resolving things, that's also good
17:30 stevan ok
17:30 b6s has joined #perl6
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17:30 stevan so $chiadog.bark() would likely hit Tree::bark() because it is a shorter distance
17:30 cventers has joined #perl6
17:30 nothingmuch type inferrence might make such errors/warnings possible
17:30 nothingmuch and you could also just check MMD sigs against all compiled classes at the end of compilation, and generate warnings for things like that
17:30 nothingmuch no, it's an error
17:31 stevan no i understand that
17:31 stevan but if it wasnt an error, that would happen
17:31 nothingmuch oh
17:31 nothingmuch uh, i don't know
17:31 nothingmuch the lineage might be Tree -> SmallTree -> HousePlant -> ChiaPet -> ChiaDog
17:31 nothingmuch and Animal -> Dog -> ChiaDog
17:32 nothingmuch i usually won't remember writing code, which is why i want it to be an error =)
17:32 stevan ok
17:33 stevan I dont think that should be an error
17:33 svnbot6 r5320, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Message: replace `.foo` with `./foo` where appropriate.
17:33 stevan what is wrong with the distance thing?
17:34 nothingmuch stevan: distance tends to be dangerous
17:34 nothingmuch in the sense that you shouldn't really care about anything but the things you explicitly put in your ISA
17:34 nothingmuch if someone refactored ChiaPet
17:35 nothingmuch and made the SmallTree and HousePlant classes, suddenly Tree is much farther
17:35 nothingmuch why should ChiaDog's code know?
17:35 lightstep has joined #perl6
17:35 nothingmuch if you explicitly resolve this (by adding something to the call, like bark(Tree<$chia_dog>) or something
17:35 nothingmuch then it's not an issue
17:36 stevan ok
17:36 stevan point taken
17:36 stevan ($chiadog as Tree).bark()
17:37 stevan ($chiadog as Dog).bark()
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17:38 nothingmuch .as is something else... i thought about it for a second, but then remembered =)
17:38 larsen has joined #perl6
17:38 stevan yes I know
17:38 svnbot6 r5321, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Request:
17:38 svnbot6 r5321, Aankhen++ | * replaced `.foo` with `./foo` where appropriate.
17:38 svnbot6 r5321, Aankhen++ | * used `given ($self)` properly.
17:38 svnbot6 r5322, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request: use `../foo` where appropriate.
17:38 * stevan has to start karma whoring more with his commit messages :)
17:39 nothingmuch use svk push --verbatim
17:39 stevan karma Stevan
17:39 jabbot stevan: Stevan has karma of 46
17:39 nothingmuch jabbot punnished me for that today ;-)
17:39 stevan karma stevan
17:39 jabbot stevan: stevan has karma of 46
17:39 nothingmuch karma nothingmuch
17:39 jabbot nothingmuch: nothingmuch has karma of 76
17:39 nothingmuch that i don't understand.. i haven't committed in ages
17:39 stevan perlbot karma stevan
17:39 perlbot Karma for stevan: 174
17:39 stevan perlbot karma Stevan
17:39 perlbot Karma for Stevan: 174
17:39 stevan ok, so it's case insensitive, cool :)
17:40 nothingmuch perlbot karma nothingmuch
17:40 perlbot Karma for nothingmuch: 129
17:40 nothingmuch ah, that is more to scale
17:40 nothingmuch albeit disappointing ;-)
17:42 Limbic_Region perlbot karma for Limbic_Region
17:42 perlbot Karma for Limbic_Region: 44
17:42 Limbic_Region so much for trying to keep my karma neutral
17:43 vcv- has joined #perl6
17:43 svnbot6 r5323, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Response:
17:43 svnbot6 r5323, Aankhen++ | * replaced `.foo` with `./foo` where appropriate.
17:43 svnbot6 r5323, Aankhen++ | * replaced `.SUPER::foo` with `../foo` where appropriate.
17:43 svnbot6 r5323, Aankhen++ | * fixed erroneous `if` condition.
17:44 nothingmuch Limbic_Region-- # because you're such a nice guy
17:45 Limbic_Region thanks nothingmuch
17:45 Limbic_Region I have decided to stop waiting for autrijus and just modify the spaceship parsing bug tests to re-expose the bug
17:45 saorge has joined #perl6
17:45 * Limbic_Region hopes it was just an oversight on autrijus' part
17:46 Ovid has quit IRC ()
17:47 Aankhen`` Whew... that was tedious.
17:48 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("leaving")
17:48 svnbot6 r5324, Limbic_Region++ | Parsing spaceship operator is still broke so modified tests to reflect
17:48 svnbot6 r5325, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Headers:
17:48 svnbot6 r5325, Aankhen++ | * replaced `.foo` with `./foo` where appropriate.
17:48 svnbot6 r5325, Aankhen++ | * fixed &coerce:<as>.
17:49 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
17:49 Aankhen`` WB Mr. much.
17:49 nothingmuch hola Aankhen``
17:49 Aankhen`` What's shakin'?
17:49 * nothingmuch is trying to make irssi settings stick
17:49 Aankhen`` Ah.
17:49 nothingmuch not much
17:49 * nothingmuch is fussing over MMD in p6l
17:50 nothingmuch aside from that just slacking
17:50 Aankhen`` I noticed. :-)
17:50 Aankhen`` nothingmuch++ # for trying to make sure MMD is done The Right Way (tm) ;-)
17:50 nothingmuch is it the right way?
17:50 Aankhen`` I dunno, but apparently you seem to care enough. :-)
17:50 nothingmuch sometimes I think I may be fussing too much over things I shouldn't fuss over
17:50 nothingmuch that is, I care a lot
17:51 nothingmuch but others don't seem to
17:51 nothingmuch they don't make arguments against it, but they don't say 'yes' either
17:51 nothingmuch brb
17:51 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Client Quit)
17:51 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
17:51 nothingmuch woo! it's working
17:52 Aankhen`` Well, I personally have the feeling that I fuss too much over most things.
17:52 Aankhen`` (such as grammar)
17:52 Aankhen`` But the way I see it, someone has to care.  It might as well be me, since I am interested. :-)
17:57 nothingmuch =)
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18:00 nnunley has joined #perl6
18:01 justatheory has joined #perl6
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18:13 masak nothingmuch++ # for caring and fussing
18:14 nothingmuch masak, Aankhen``: thanks... Help me by making a slightly bigger fuss on p6l?
18:14 stevan masak++ # for encouraging him :P
18:14 stevan *cough* warnocked *cough*
18:14 Aankhen`` nothingmuch >> I am wary of posting since I am not very knowledgeable about the subject.
18:15 stevan Aankhen``: just say "Yeah, what he said" :)
18:15 Aankhen`` Heh.
18:15 Aankhen`` Shall I just +1 it?
18:15 nothingmuch well, if you sound like an idiot, but make a big issue of the subject
18:15 nothingmuch and I sound OK
18:15 nothingmuch then we have both an opionion, and an issue
18:15 nothingmuch =D
18:15 Aankhen`` Heh.
18:16 Aankhen`` Which thread of discussion should I kick up a fuss in?
18:16 masak i'm not really aware of what fuss you're talking about :)
18:16 nothingmuch Hackathon notes
18:16 masak is it about mmd?
18:16 Aankhen`` The "Hackathon Notes" one?
18:16 Aankhen`` OK.
18:16 nothingmuch masak: MMD semantics
18:16 nothingmuch yes and yes ;-)
18:16 masak :)
18:16 masak explain to me what's important
18:17 * masak is just seeing fuss
18:17 Aankhen`` I'm just saying +1.
18:18 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
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18:18 nothingmuch masak: we won't get any particularity semantics for anything but types
18:18 masak for example...?
18:19 nothingmuch that is 'sub foo (1 .. 10) {... }; sub foo (5) { die "i'm never called" }'
18:19 stevan nothingmuch: you could put your shekels where you mouth is, and implement it in the metamodel :P
18:19 dmo has joined #perl6
18:19 nothingmuch since 1..10 is tried before 5, even though it isn't as particular
18:19 nothingmuch stevan: will do, i'm fussing with irssi ATM.
18:19 stevan nothingmuch: excuses, excuses
18:20 masak :)
18:20 lightstep has quit IRC ("good night")
18:20 nothingmuch yeah, but at least it's an honest excuse ;-)
18:20 masak nothingmuch: most languages i know go by declaration order
18:20 masak that seems to be the easy way out
18:20 stevan masak: there is also static code analysis
18:20 stevan but Perl wont do that
18:21 nothingmuch masak: declaration order sort of sucks, because you can't append a method that deals with a special case
18:21 nothingmuch you have to prepend it
18:21 nothingmuch which means you need access to the original code
18:21 nothingmuch which might not be there, since we're going to have real compilation
18:21 stevan or in C++ where they just change the function names
18:22 nothingmuch look at Class::Events
18:22 nothingmuch it's my canonical example
18:22 masak nothingmuch: you have a point there
18:22 nothingmuch you bundle up code in a module
18:22 nothingmuch it contains two classes - a subscription class, and a notification class
18:22 nothingmuch the rest is handled by the generic code
18:22 nothingmuch however, it's silly to filter a list of subscription for named events
18:22 nothingmuch so the name package adds an MMD get_subscriptions to the Publisher role
18:23 masak nothingmuch: but i think you need to make your solution as intuitive as possible, to show the advantages clearly
18:23 nothingmuch which uses a hash insstead
18:23 nothingmuch that example shows how the generic solution is unhindered by the extending code
18:23 nothingmuch how the extending code can benefit from generic code that it doesn't change
18:23 masak ah, ok
18:23 nothingmuch and how everything can stay clean and very very simple
18:23 nothingmuch but not inefficient
18:23 nothingmuch it's about 200 lines altogether, with lots of whitespace
18:24 masak there's some pattern matching in there somewhere, isn't there?
18:24 masak at least you need to determine the relative specificity of expressions
18:25 nothingmuch masak: type distance only, in Class::Events
18:25 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:25 masak what's type distance?
18:25 nothingmuch but this is useful also with values
18:25 nothingmuch ChiaDog is Dog is Animal
18:26 nothingmuch ChiaDog is Tree
18:26 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("BRB [Time wasted online: 2hrs 42mins 46secs]")
18:26 masak and in case of a tie?
18:26 nothingmuch sub bark (Dog $dog) { }
18:26 nothingmuch err, method
18:27 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
18:27 nothingmuch method bark (Animal $dog){ print "moof" }
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18:29 nothingmuch sorry, , phone
18:29 Coke has left
18:29 nothingmuch masak: basically it means that 'Dog' is more particular than 'Animal' in the case
18:29 nothingmuch so $chiadog.bark() will use 'bark (Dog)'
18:30 nothingmuch we have this this with types
18:30 nothingmuch but we won't have it with values, unless we fuss
18:31 masak what happens if no supertype is closer than the other(s)?
18:32 * masak guesses that other precedence rules kick in
18:33 nothingmuch that's what I'm trying to define
18:33 nothingmuch basically we have 'uh, definition order counts'
18:33 nothingmuch and 'type distance should solve that'
18:33 nothingmuch that's it
18:33 masak :)
18:33 masak gotta go
18:33 nothingmuch ciao
18:33 masak nothingmuch: good luck with mmd
18:33 masak has left
18:35 cwest seen autrijus?
18:35 jabbot cwest: autrijus was seen 5 hours 31 minutes 36 seconds ago
18:35 cwest nothingmuch: Do you have bandwidth/space to host a JSAN mirror?
18:36 nothing_pasta yes
18:36 nothing_pasta for starters at least
18:36 cwest Right.
18:36 nothing_pasta 278 kilobits out
18:36 nothing_pasta space is not an issue
18:36 nothing_pasta and leeching is not a problem
18:36 cwest cool.
18:36 cwest I need to get some global mirroring going.
18:36 cwest No multiplex yet.
18:36 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:36 cwest Let me get some docs on the site and I'll point you to them.
18:37 cwest This will be today.
18:37 cwest Bottom line is 1) rsync 2) static website 3) needs to run from /
18:37 cwest so host.domain.com or something.
18:37 nothingmuch okay
18:38 nothingmuch login?
18:38 cwest nah
18:38 nothingmuch jsan.woobling.org
18:38 cwest Yeah, that'd be great.
18:38 cwest I'll update you soon.
18:41 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Sleep [Time wasted online: 14mins 11secs]")
18:41 cwest /usr/local/bin/rsync -avz rsync://openjsan.org/jsan /usr/local/apache/jsan
18:41 cwest nothingmuch: That's it if you just want to start.
18:41 cwest I'd keep it at 6/12 hour intervals, changes are made a coulpe times a day.
18:41 nothingmuch rsync is cheap
18:41 nothingmuch 6?
18:43 cwest yeah, that's cool.
18:43 cwest I may change the explicit host to be master.openjsan.org, we'll see.
18:43 cwest Also, run with --delete and you won't keep cruft.
18:44 nothingmuch it's pretty small
18:44 nothingmuch want more frequent intervals?
18:46 cwest If you want to go with 1h I'm cool.
18:46 cwest I'm going to change the official host to be master.openjsan.org, I'll let you know when that happens.
18:47 nothingmuch make it a mirror at the moment?
18:49 dmo has quit IRC ()
18:49 nothingmuch jsan.woobling.org is up
18:50 cwest nice
18:50 cwest nothingmuch++
18:52 nothingmuch does it need any directly listing options?
18:52 cwest I prefer indexes on dist/
18:52 cwest that's it
18:52 dmo has joined #perl6
18:52 nothingmuch okay
18:52 cwest also, if you got a src/ dir, please run again with --delete.
18:52 cwest I don't want to destribute that yet.
18:52 nothingmuch i did that now
18:53 cwest *nod*
18:53 nothingmuch i was surprised at the deletes
18:53 cwest heh
18:53 cwest yeah.
18:53 nothingmuch ok, rsync from cron is working
18:53 nothingmuch making it hourly
18:53 cwest there's some XSI problems with a 'browse dist' when javascript is involved.
18:53 cwest You rock.
18:55 * nothingmuch forgets his apache-config-fu every time
18:57 nothingmuch okay, indexes enabled just on /dist/
18:57 cwest you rock.
18:58 nothingmuch i hope I can resist the surge of babes
18:58 nothingmuch are mirror hosters popular?
18:59 cwest heh
18:59 cwest Not usually, if you mean traffic wise.
19:00 nothingmuch no, i mean babe wise
19:00 nothingmuch ;-
19:00 cwest But if /. hits this DNS is going to CNAME all my mirror's asses in a flash.
19:00 nothingmuch )
19:00 cwest Oh.
19:00 cwest Well, beats me. :-)
19:00 nothingmuch hah
19:00 nothingmuch i can take it, i have mod_deflate ;-)
19:00 cwest I'm married so I solved that problem already.
19:00 nothingmuch and traffic shaping too
19:00 cwest Cool.
19:01 cwest I should do some of that for the main site.
19:01 nothingmuch yeah, limits HTTP so I still have 2k left for TCP acks
19:01 nothingmuch wondershaper
19:01 nothingmuch tis tres easy
19:01 * cwest jots that down
19:01 nothingmuch crap, i just realized you can't have umlauts if option is the meta key
19:01 nothingmuch how do you run a js test suite?
19:01 nothingmuch prove launches mozilla?
19:01 cwest bah, freebsd is my king, probably won't work
19:02 nothingmuch i wrote a trafic shaper for bsd fw
19:02 cwest send it to me :-)
19:02 nothingmuch one sec
19:02 nothingmuch it's in perl, so you probably don't want to give it more than 100KBps ;-)
19:02 cwest [email@hidden.address]
19:03 cwest heh. I don't have that to spare so I think I'm safe.
19:03 nothingmuch http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=296660
19:03 cwest oh, even better
19:03 arcady has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:04 nothingmuch oh crap, it's on code craft, so documentation is deliberately omitted ;-)
19:06 cwest no worries. Could you change the rsync host to master.openjsan.org?
19:06 nothingmuch cwest: ask Juerd to host you a mirror too
19:06 nothingmuch yep
19:06 cwest Where's he?
19:06 nothingmuch seen Juerd
19:06 jabbot nothingmuch: Juerd was seen 2 days 22 hours 58 minutes 23 seconds ago
19:07 cwest Oh, I meant physically :-)
19:07 nothingmuch netherlands
19:07 nothingmuch also ask pair.com, they are generous when it comes to donating boxes/bw
19:07 cwest I am pair.com.
19:08 nothingmuch and playboy.com - they host a cpan mirror, and I bet their websites have "active" content
19:08 cwest They may be giving me a server for the master site. (My employer, they)
19:08 nothingmuch ah
19:08 nothingmuch so why do you need mirrors?!
19:08 cwest Because their hosting is too expensive for me. ;-)
19:08 nothingmuch hah
19:08 cwest And because when /. overloads a server they just firewall the site off the intarweb.
19:08 nothingmuch it's supposed to be free when you have both connections and a cause
19:08 cwest I'd rather make dns adjustments to my mirrors, if/when that happens.
19:08 nothingmuch okay
19:08 nothingmuch fair enough
19:09 cwest I hate the /. effect when it's "Hey look at that cool thing. Oh, I killed it. Pity."
19:09 nothingmuch ping awwaiid, he has a non-profit (that is, you pay for the costs) hosting company
19:09 nothingmuch epfarms
19:10 cwest *nod*
19:10 cwest I've got friends at a local isp, they gave me colo space.
19:10 cwest So I'm good for now.
19:10 cwest I may be good for all time.
19:10 cwest But I want the mirrors for when people start building installers like cpanp and such.
19:10 cwest Because eventually that'll happen.
19:11 nothingmuch does the installer have to be written in JS?
19:11 cwest your rsync from master. might fail.
19:11 cwest dns was just set up.
19:11 nothingmuch because if not, stevan and I made Verby for writing installers
19:11 cwest it doesn't have to be :-)
19:11 nothingmuch minutely crontab mails me result of -avz, we'll see when it starts working
19:11 cwest The way I see it, an installer just reads META.yml for deps and puts lib/* into the PREFIX you choose.
19:11 cwest I'll probably write one for myself not too long from now.
19:12 nothingmuch so write it with Verby
19:12 nothingmuch =D
19:12 nothingmuch you have to look at it, or i'm taking jsan.woobling.org down randomly
19:12 cwest hee
19:13 cwest show me
19:13 cwest and also I'm hoping autrijus shows up so I can get some east asian goodness from him.
19:14 nothingmuch ask ingy who whosts tpe.freepan.org
19:14 cwest *nod*
19:16 ingy hola
19:16 cwest heya
19:16 ingy what is up?
19:16 cwest nslookup master.openjsan.org
19:16 cwest well anyway
19:16 nothingmuch nslookup is depracated
19:16 cwest ingy: want to host a JSAN mirror?
19:17 ingy cwest: sounds cool
19:17 iblechbot has joined #perl6
19:17 cwest as soon as dns propigates, /usr/local/bin/rsync -avz --delete rsync://master.openjsan.org/jsan /usr/local/apache/jsan
19:17 ingy need to talk to my peeps on #freepan
19:17 cwest Should I do that?
19:17 ingy no
19:17 cwest okay
19:18 cwest well it's easy, rsync once every (1|6|12|24) hours. It needs a vhost, and as I think I said it's all static.
19:18 cwest no? well it's all static.
19:19 cwest dns is on its way round the world, so when everything updates you can get from master.openjsan.or
19:19 cwest s/or/org/
19:19 cwest (sorry for messing up #perl6 with all this JS junk :-)
19:20 cwest however, I must say, the rapid development of pugs was inspiring to me for this project
19:27 obra cwest: are you signing md5hashes of all the dists?
19:29 cwest no, maybe I should be
19:29 cwest since we now have mirrors.
19:30 nothingmuch right =)
19:30 obra also, we should talk about bug tracking
19:30 nothingmuch obra++
19:30 cwest Yeah, I was going to set up RT but I'd like to do the per-dist RT thing, in a recent version.
19:30 robkinyon obra: we need to talk about install procedures, first
19:30 nothingmuch obra: do you set up rt sites like, for people, for free? ;-)
19:30 nothingmuch people like me, for example?
19:31 fglock how to test if 2 objects belong to the same class?
19:31 cwest irc.perl.org/#jsan for further jsan stuff mkay?
19:33 obra nothingmuch: for what project? ;)
19:33 obra I have an intern who's about to start working on the new rt.cpan.
19:34 Limbic_Region fglock - ref ?
19:34 obra cwest: so, it'll be a matter of writing another import tool, I hope
19:34 fglock i tried $a.isa( $b.meta ) but it complains
19:34 Limbic_Region well - as in p5, I am not sure ref is the best way, but it should work in the majority of cases
19:35 fglock thanks
19:36 Limbic_Region walang anuman
19:36 fglock although it may break on inheritance
19:36 Limbic_Region I am sure there will be a better way if there isn't already
19:37 cwest obra: cool
19:37 * Limbic_Region really isn't up to speed on p6 OO and introspection
19:39 gaal hi all
19:40 Limbic_Region salutations gaal
19:40 gaal hey l~r
19:43 Limbic_Region out of curiosity - should tests for unimplemented features like t/builtins/strings/trans.t be eval'd or todo'd or something?
19:43 gaal :todo<feature>
19:43 elmex has joined #perl6
19:43 gaal and sure, maybe eval_is too, if they don't parse
19:43 gaal see t/README
19:44 Limbic_Region they are marked todo
19:44 Limbic_Region hmmm
19:44 svnbot6 r5326, luqui++ | Added a few more notes.
19:44 nothingmuch obra: mostly for a personal TODO list + my projects
19:45 nothingmuch for 50% of my project there's rt.cpan.org, but I don't use it that often
19:45 nothingmuch i need it on my localhost
19:45 nothingmuch but I also want it as a wiki
19:45 obra what do you need out of it on localhost?
19:45 obra and what about the wikiness do you want?
19:45 nothingmuch so there's no authentication or processes, and that's where rt doesn't fit in the picture
19:45 obra _no_ auth?
19:45 nothingmuch because I want it fast and disconnected
19:46 obra but also possibly visible to others?
19:46 nothingmuch basically every bug, event, whatever is a wiki page
19:46 nothingmuch completely open
19:46 obra you're daring
19:46 nothingmuch (in my scenario, there's just no auth, because it's just me)
19:46 obra *nod*
19:46 nothingmuch wiki pages have some keywords
19:46 nothingmuch if you have an
19:46 nothingmuch 'event <<some_date>>' in the page
19:46 nothingmuch it shows up on the calendar
19:46 obra you've looked at backpack?
19:46 nothingmuch if it's title contains 'BUG:' it's an issue
19:47 nothingmuch if the first or last word is 'closed', it doesn't show up on the pending list
19:47 nothingmuch if it has unidiffs attached it shows up eralier ;-)
19:47 nothingmuch what's backpack?
19:47 obra backpackit.com
19:47 obra I don't think you want that much dwimmyness
19:47 nothingmuch if it looks like a TODO i have an interface to check it off
19:48 obra it leads to things being a little hard to use.
19:48 nothingmuch right, that's the problem
19:48 nothingmuch it's the kind of software you write for yourself
19:48 nothingmuch and I won't get around to it ;-)
19:48 gaal nothingmuch: you know, your MMD concerns would make a great Israel.pm talk if you want to give one sometime.
19:49 nothingmuch hmm... i don't see how
19:49 gaal present a problem
19:49 gaal show approaches
19:49 gaal explain why yours wins :)
19:49 nothingmuch hah
19:49 stevan fglock: $a.isa( $b.meta ) wont work, since .meta will return the metaclass, and not hte class name
19:49 * gaal is hoping to finally understand it :-)
19:50 * nothingmuch considers
19:50 stevan fglock: $a.isa( $b.ref ) should work for now
19:50 stevan fglock: $a.isa( $b.ref ) || $b.isa( $a.ref ) if you want to check "both ways"
19:51 nothingmuch obra: baackpackit looks almost like what I want
19:51 obra *nod*
19:51 stevan gaal: it will likely be easier to understand when nothingmuch is finished with implementing it in the prototype metamodel
19:51 obra nothingmuch: it may be worth trying it a bit
19:51 stevan right nothingmuch ?? *hint* *hint*
19:51 gaal wait, nothingmuch said moosish on p6-l. i think i'll undersatand everything from now on.
19:52 nothingmuch stevan: uh, yes
19:52 nothingmuch gaal++
19:52 gaal moose++
19:52 nothingmuch i didn't even notice i did that
19:52 nothingmuch your brainwash is amazing
19:52 nothingmuch obra: i need everything in one big system
19:52 nothingmuch like 'call foo' becoming my front page when I put it in, and i haven't ticked it off for 3 days
19:52 nothingmuch because the 'call name' pattern does that
19:52 nothingmuch for example
19:53 nothingmuch it's basically my life, but in a wiki
19:53 obra nothingmuch: makes plenty of sense
19:53 obra I want it too
19:54 nothingmuch let's get ingy to write it
19:54 elmex_ has joined #perl6
19:54 nothingmuch awwaiid promised me he'll do something like that
19:54 nothingmuch and he did, to some extent
19:54 nothingmuch but only for issue tracking
19:55 * nothingmuch tries backpack
19:56 obra what is it for issue tracking?
19:56 nothingmuch he hacked up oddmuse wiki
19:56 nothingmuch it basically has the issue aggregation stuff, with state keeping
19:58 Limbic_Region out of curiosity - is anyone using "state" declared variables - at all?
19:59 * nothingmuch hasn't used it yet
19:59 nothingmuch i keep forgetting it existrs
20:00 Limbic_Region in thinking about the problem of cache variables in p5 - I think it would be a nice improvement
20:00 nothingmuch obra: backpack doesn't have one thing: automatic aggregation of pages into meaningful data
20:00 obra nothingmuch: correct
20:00 Limbic_Region you have a cache that belongs to a particular sub - you don't have to pass it in each time, or declare package level variable, or weird closure tricks
20:00 Limbic_Region just declare it with state
20:01 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: good point =)
20:01 nothingmuch i think I wrote an email with an example sub that had a cache, but never really used one myself
20:01 nothingmuch Limbic_Region++
20:01 nothingmuch i'd like to be able to do one more thing
20:01 nothingmuch create an aggregator page
20:01 Limbic_Region well - I have several examples of p5 code that I jumped through hoops for that I was going to port to p6
20:01 nothingmuch which instantiates certain aggregators
20:01 nothingmuch that's how you wrap it all together, and organize, too
20:02 Limbic_Region and while I was at it - I was going to contribute other examples if people had them
20:02 nothingmuch i nodded off in the lightning talk about the wikiwikiweb stuff
20:02 nothingmuch does anybody have slides/data/info?
20:03 nothingmuch cwest: sorry, i forgot rsync on minutely... fixed
20:06 nothingmuch stevan: okay, getting busy
20:06 stevan nothingmuch: about time ... sheesh
20:06 nothingmuch =D
20:06 stevan nothingmuch: wanna SEE?
20:06 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:07 nothingmuch sure
20:07 nothingmuch one sec, i'll start up ingy's trick
20:07 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
20:09 dmo has quit IRC ()
20:10 elmex_ has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
20:11 nothingmuch hmm
20:14 nothingmuch GRR!
20:17 nnunley_ has joined #perl6
20:17 svnbot6 r5327, fglock++ | Span.pm passes more tests
20:18 nnunley has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
20:22 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - I posted a meditation on it http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=473561
20:22 Limbic_Region depending on the responses - I will consolidate examples and create a state sub directory in examples to put all of them in
20:23 nothingmuch stevan: ssh is annoying me.
20:23 nothingmuch can you punch your NAT if you have one?
20:24 nothingmuch Limbic_Region++ # nice post
20:25 nothingmuch Alfred Brendel is demi god
20:25 nothingmuch luqui - if you backlog you better get some
20:28 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
20:28 * Limbic_Region notes the time and calls it a weekend
20:28 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("a weekend")
20:29 stevan nothingmuch: why dont you sketch out the code first, then we can work on it
20:29 stevan right now $work is calling me
20:29 dmo has joined #perl6
20:30 nothingmuch okay
20:31 elmex has joined #perl6
20:40 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:43 dmo has quit IRC ()
20:45 dmo has joined #perl6
20:49 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
20:49 saorge_ has joined #perl6
20:49 saorge has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:50 nothingmuch eep... how did I close this? /me doesn't remember doint that
20:55 dmo has quit IRC ()
20:56 Khisanth has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:56 dmo has joined #perl6
20:58 Khisanth has joined #perl6
21:00 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
21:00 svnbot6 r5328, fglock++ | added "Set::Infinite::Functional"
21:04 lightstep has joined #perl6
21:10 kolibrie has quit IRC ("happy weekend")
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21:42 jdv79 has left "Leaving"
21:47 alinbsp has left
21:52 cwest seen nothingmuch
21:52 jabbot cwest: nothingmuch was seen 1 hours 2 minutes 24 seconds ago
21:53 cventers has left
22:07 lightstep has quit IRC ("good night")
22:09 * nothingmuch exposes himself
22:10 nothingmuch oh come on, that's bound to get more attention than this
22:10 * nothingmuch prods cwest ;-)
22:10 * nothingmuch sighs and unexposes himself
22:10 * Limbic_Region tells nothingmuch that it can't be called prodding with something THAT small
22:11 nothingmuch =
22:11 nothingmuch )
22:11 PerlJam has quit IRC ("*poof*")
22:11 nothingmuch at least someone is listening/getting my jokes
22:11 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - did you read BrowserUk's reply to my state meditation?
22:11 Limbic_Region http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=473561
22:11 nothingmuch not yet
22:12 Limbic_Region oh - it is official btw - Jean's approval letter came today - she can now come and go as she pleases (permanent residency visa - also knowns as green card)
22:15 nothingmuch woot!
22:15 nothingmuch are you guys working on a citizenship?
22:16 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: i found that a bit of a pointless discussion... I think he was sort of straying
22:16 nothingmuch brb
22:16 dmo has quit IRC ()
22:17 cwest heya
22:17 cwest I don't need you anymore
22:17 cwest seen autrijus
22:17 jabbot cwest: autrijus was seen 9 hours 13 minutes 47 seconds ago
22:19 Limbic_Region nothingmuch well, the point of the meditation was to get people thinking about state variables and how they might be useful
22:19 Limbic_Region I don't think BrowserUk undermined that - though it isn't the direction I was hoping for
22:19 Limbic_Region his response boils down to - don't use state variables as a replacement for class variables when doing OO
22:19 Limbic_Region that I agree with
22:19 Limbic_Region the argument that it will be easy to make that mistake is false though - as p6 OO looks visually a lot different
22:20 Limbic_Region you won't confuse a method with a sub
22:26 nothingmuch right
22:27 Limbic_Region $larry replied btw
22:27 * Limbic_Region is getting the desired response
22:28 nothingmuch callooh, callay
22:38 dudley Limbic_Region++ # Very tactful response to BrowserUK. Impressive social skills (for a hacker, anyway ;-) )
22:39 dudley has quit IRC ()
22:40 Limbic_Region dudley - for the most part, we are pretty amicable at the Monastery
22:40 Limbic_Region and even when we get pissy - we tend to forgive quickly
22:41 Limbic_Region there are a few exceptions - but by and large it is a very synergetic community
22:41 Limbic_Region oh, dudley is gone already
22:55 nothingmuch http://www.crocuta.net/AtTheGayBar.mov
23:02 autarch that's awesome
23:04 revdiablo Limbic_Region++ # good Meditation
23:05 nothingmuch more from the same blog: http://www.koreus.com/files/200502/hollowmen.html
23:05 nothingmuch the blog: http://bigpicture.typepad.com/writing/music/
23:06 fglock has quit IRC ("I am going away")
23:10 vcv has joined #perl6
23:10 svnbot6 r5329, fglock++ | Set::Infinite::Funcional can do "union"
23:23 saorge_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:23 nothingmuch wow, good questions on perlmonls
23:24 nothingmuch err, perlmonks
23:24 nothingmuch by good i mean fun to answer
23:24 Limbic_Region PerlMonks rawks
23:26 * nothingmuch can't resist the temptation of actually planning out a ??{ } based parser for this guy: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=473596
23:26 nothingmuch it should be pretty clean
23:26 nothingmuch i'll have a go at it
23:26 nothingmuch i've always wanted to use local in regexes =)
23:27 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - I earmarked that one for tomorrow
23:27 Limbic_Region I didn't have time to give a proper reply
23:27 Limbic_Region but I was only going to suggest an approach
23:27 Limbic_Region not a working implementation
23:28 Limbic_Region though I very much look forward to yours
23:28 nothingmuch this one was also nice: http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=462487
23:28 nothingmuch well, i'll post it if you promise to upvote
23:28 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("a night")
23:28 nothingmuch i'm whoring for sainthood
23:28 nothingmuch ;-)
23:37 * geoffb finally comes out from under huge IRC backlog
23:37 geoffb wheee . . .
23:38 geoffb And on another note, it looks like I will be able to do OSCON in Portland (chromatic++ for making that possible) -- so who from in here will be there?
23:39 * nothingmuch shifts uncomfortably
23:39 geoffb ?
23:39 autarch I'll be there
23:39 autarch I am, like, _so_ there
23:40 nothingmuch geoffb: won't be there
23:40 geoffb autarch, you were one of the guys working on HTML::Mason, yes?
23:40 nothingmuch autarch: i wanted to thank you for your modules
23:40 nothingmuch you are a wonderful wonderful man
23:40 nothingmuch thank you for saving the world so many man hours
23:40 autarch heh, DateTime.pm is all fubared
23:40 autarch mostly cause I tried to make something too simple that's inherently complex
23:40 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
23:40 geoffb And BTW, DateTime in Perl 5 SAVED MY PROJECT at my last company.
23:40 autarch geoffb: yes, I work(ed) on Mason
23:40 autarch heh
23:41 autarch just be careful about date math when the object's have a time zone
23:41 autarch it's a little wonky
23:41 geoffb Ah.  Two companies ago I worked for Jon Swartz, so I've been an H::M adherent ever since
23:41 autarch geoffb: what company were you at then?  CMP?
23:41 geoffb AvantGo -- before they got bought
23:41 autarch oh right
23:42 geoffb autarch, I hope you're referring to P6 DateTime having wonky time zone math, because the time zone math was a very large part of what I used DateTime *for* in P5.
23:43 autarch no, P5
23:43 autarch you'd have to do some pretty specific operations to uncover it
23:43 geoffb oh, OUCH.
23:43 * geoffb hopes fervently that I didn't trip those operations.
23:43 autarch basically, I need to split up all the math stuff to force the user to pick between math on local datetime components, or UTC components
23:44 autarch right now it kind of mixes them, which mostly works, except when it doesn't
23:44 geoffb BTW, it didn't then, but have you since added to DateTime a constructor that can build a UTC DateTime object Really Damn Quick?  I had to subclass just to make a fast enough DateTime constructor for my project . . .
23:44 autarch this is mostly tickled by $dt1->subtract_datetime($dt2)
23:44 autarch I could special case for UTC, I guess
23:44 autarch I'm trying to use the P6 stuff to prototype a cleaner API which I may backport to P5
23:44 geoffb (My code actually special-cased both UTC and 'floating', because the fastpath is the same)
23:45 geoffb nodnod
23:45 autarch almost the same
23:45 autarch second => 60 is only valid for UTC, not floating
23:45 * autarch really really really hates leap seconds
23:45 geoffb It happened that in my case, that didn't matter, but point taken
23:45 autarch if everyone would just use UTC, my life would be so much easier ;)
23:45 geoffb heh
23:46 autarch but everyone wants to give their _local_ time to a constructor, which makes for nightmares
23:46 geoffb which is the one that's almost the same as UTC without leap seconds?  TAI?
23:46 autarch yes, TAI
23:46 autarch I sure as hell can't expect people to put that in the constructor, lovely as that would be
23:46 geoffb I kept everything in UTC internally, and converted back and forth to user timezones on input and output
23:47 geoffb but when I did a calendar year summary of events, all those conversions got SLOW
23:47 saorge has joined #perl6
23:47 autarch ah, the time zone conversion bits are all bug-free, AFAIK
23:48 autarch it's basically isolated to the "what's the difference between these two datetimes" bits
23:48 geoffb I believe I did all duration math in UTC.  That should work correctly, I hope?
23:48 autarch yes
23:48 autarch that's a very very good idea ;)
23:48 geoffb good
23:49 autarch the thing is that people want "2005-11-01T10:00:00 - 2005-08-01T10:00:00 = 3 months"
23:49 autarch regardless of local time zone
23:49 autarch but if you look at UTC it could be off by an hour because of DST changes in between two dates
23:49 geoffb So for your Perl 6 version, I guess my biggest API wish is that there be a way to say "I've guaranteed elsewhere that my inputs are correct, please do construction and suchlike in the fastpath"
23:49 geoffb semantically, at least
23:49 autarch someone's working on that already
23:50 autarch He came up with a DateTime::Diet module that'll do that
23:50 geoffb someone++
23:50 geoffb :-)
23:50 autarch the trick is to let DateTime::Format::* modules use it
23:50 autarch Rick Measham
23:50 geoffb (Rick Measham)++ then
23:50 Darren_Duncan I have a question regarding the common or proper terms of speech regarding continuations ...
23:51 autarch It's actually a cute little trampoline.  It just blindly accepts your inputs and stores them.  It provides a small subset of the DT.pm methods, and then turns itself into a proper DT.pm object for methods it doesn't implement
23:51 Darren_Duncan supposedly, with a continuation, receiving an argument and returning a value is exactly the same kind of thing
23:51 autarch this is great if you know your data is valid, but would lead to all sorts of wacko late-appearing errors otherwise
23:52 geoffb autarch, nice implementation concept.  Go Rick.
23:52 Darren_Duncan as if there was no distinction between functions and procedures; a function's return value is simply an argument that can be written to
23:52 autarch yeah, it's cool
23:52 Darren_Duncan my question is ...
23:52 nothingmuch ugh
23:53 Darren_Duncan what is a good generic name for what 'foo' is if 'foo' can be either a value passed in or a value passed out of a routine
23:53 nnunley_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:54 geoffb So autarch will be at OSCON in Portland, and nothingmuch won't (sorry to hear that, BTW!).  Anyone else?
23:54 Darren_Duncan I plan to be at OSCON in Portland
23:55 geoffb (y)
23:55 larsen has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:55 Darren_Duncan btw, geoffb, are you still looking for people to room with?
23:56 geoffb Nope -- managed to convince my Dad to house me.
23:56 Darren_Duncan so you have family in town ... nice
23:56 Darren_Duncan how far from the convention center?
23:56 geoffb Well, Lake Oswego, but he says its about 10 min from convention center

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