Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:00 svnbot6 r5457, nothingmuch++ | geoffb++'s next bug test case, and a similar test case for redo.
00:01 putter Do we have NEXT blocks yet?
00:01 nothingmuch not that I know of
00:01 nothingmuch that will require unification
00:01 nothingmuch we should generalize, actually
00:01 nothingmuch the next constructor takes the action for next
00:01 nothingmuch but also performs NEXT  { } blocks on the sub body
00:01 nothingmuch and does the continuation magic
00:02 nothingmuch i'll discuss with autrijus tomorrow
00:02 putter ok.
00:08 osfameron has joined #perl6
00:15 putter can one make $i rw in for 1 .. 10 -> $i { ... } ?
00:16 nothingmuch not in a range
00:16 nothingmuch what are you mutating?
00:16 nothingmuch you can declare is copy
00:16 sapper has quit IRC ("bye")
00:18 putter I went to transliterate a ruby redo test, and it didnt quite work...
00:18 putter for i in 1..10; sum += i; i -= 1; if i > 0; redo; end end assert_equal(220, sum)
00:24 Juerd "i -= 1; if i > 0; redo;"
00:24 Juerd That's just downright stupid, with all respect for the original author.
00:24 coral interesting way to do a while loop
00:24 coral er, for
00:24 Juerd Just use i > 1
00:25 Juerd And that's not even looking at the horrors of changing what was a constant.
00:25 coral there's more than one way to do it, but only one will look satisfactory to any single person.
00:25 putter ok, with -> $i is copy {}, it runs, but loops indefinitely.  It looks like redo takes us back before the assignment to $i.  perl5 otoh has the same behavior as ruby.
00:25 putter for my $i (1..4){$i--;print $i;redo if $i > 0;print "\n"}   works.
00:25 Juerd putter: I think the original code needs a change first.
00:27 putter Juerd: ??
00:27 osfameron_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:27 Juerd I'm amazed that it works in Perl 5.
00:28 Juerd Apparently ranges do result in writable values, and 1..2 isn't expanded until runtime, so no literals are changed.
00:28 Juerd 02:28 < Juerd> That's just downright stupid, with all respect for the original author.
00:28 Juerd I take that back. The code was misleading, not wrong.
00:28 nothingmuch geoffb: you're off the hook, I did all three
00:29 svnbot6 r5458, nothingmuch++ | Add tests for redo and next under all loop (;;), for, and while (every loop
00:29 svnbot6 r5458, nothingmuch++ | type is broken in one way or another - tests todo'd)
00:29 Juerd Still, a range should theoretically of course return immutable values
00:29 putter perlfunc shows redo returning to while (EXPR) { #### HERE .... }.
00:30 Nattfodd has quit IRC ("Leaving")
00:31 Juerd Whatever 1..3 returns should be equal in semantics to 1,2,3
00:31 Juerd I'd consider perl 5's behaviour a bug.
00:31 putter Juerd: it does... which is why the for mumble -> $i is copy {mumble} was needed... no?
00:31 Juerd Yes.
00:32 chromatic has quit IRC ("Perl 5 time.")
00:32 nothingmuch good night everyone
00:33 putter Good night.  I'll add a test for "returning to too early redo".  Fun.  tnx
00:33 nothingmuch returning to too early redo?
00:33 putter err, backlog?  
00:34 putter this,
00:34 nothingmuch oh
00:34 nothingmuch redo redoes the cond?
00:34 putter for 1..2 -> $i is copy { $i--; redo if $i > 0; }
00:34 putter nonterminates
00:34 nothingmuch appearantly it redoes the increment clause of loop(;;){}
00:35 nothingmuch which is not good
00:35 nothingmuch see last test in t/statements/next.t
00:35 putter looking...
00:35 nothingmuch $j is not 4 by the time it's done, but 6
00:35 nothingmuch i'm not sure if it's because it does the butt end of the loop 2 times more than it ought to
00:39 nothingmuch anywho, *poof*
00:39 svnbot6 r5459, dudley++ | Removed the extraneous quotes that were causing the test for [...] on user defined ops to fail
00:40 putter nothingmuch vanishes in a cloud of smoke.  'night
00:41 kelan seen kelan
00:42 kelan perlbot: seen kelan
00:53 putter does this look plausible?  my $i; while (do{$i++ < 10}) {say $i}
00:54 kelan why have the do-block?
00:58 putter the real example is something like do{$x=$i; $i++ < 10}... but bad things happen...
00:59 putter (nonterminates, and $x is not set)
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01:12 svnbot6 r5460, putter++ | Additional redo.t tests.
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01:17 putter Hmm... in p6, how does one next/last/redo to non-inner loops?  p5's OUTER:{... while ... { last OUTER;}}
01:20 autrijus that should continue to work (even tho we don't yet support it)
01:20 putter ah, tnx.
01:20 autrijus leave :label<OUTER>;
01:20 autrijus is what that really means
01:24 putter tnx.  I started to transliterate p5's loopctl.t, but it's too dependent on labels and NEXT blocks.  ah well.
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01:29 autrijus for some reason leave() works in PIR :)
01:30 autrijus it should be much easier to work with once PIL evaluator is there
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01:31 putter right :).
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01:37 svnbot6 r5461, fglock++ | added bug list; fixed docs
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01:41 autrijus dear larry. you have again inflicted your whim on me. :-/
01:42 putter ?
01:42 autrijus so this week I need to, at compile time, detect if $?SELF and $_ is the same thing
01:42 autrijus and if yes, raise a fatal exception on  .method
01:42 autrijus er
01:42 autrijus I mean, if not
01:43 putter ;)
01:43 autrijus and force dialects with "use self"
01:44 autrijus and it's only applicable this week
01:44 mugwump why not just defer such behaviour until some indeterminable time in the future when everything is self hosting and mutating the grammar isn't a PITA
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01:44 putter hmm, perhaps that's not the highest thing on the priority list...?
01:44 autrijus esp. seeing how existing ./foo needs to be rewritten
01:45 autrijus putter: yeah, but I feel uncomfortable having a mass of test suite actively disagree with ruling
01:47 autrijus or do you think it's sane to say that pugs has `use self "./"` always in scope, until we really have a compile time and PIL evaluation, at which time self.pm can actually be implemented with P6?
01:48 mugwump sure.  why not do something really interesting, like Proxy objects :)
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01:48 autrijus mugwump: there's already ScalarProxy IType
01:48 autrijus just hook it to Proxy::new and you're set
01:49 mugwump Oh cool... and I was figuring that the Array and Hash proxies wouldn't need much, probably just connections with the hash/array de-ref methods
01:49 mugwump ie, the post_circumfix:«{}» methods,
01:50 mugwump and post_circumfix:«[]» of course.
01:50 putter I do think it sane.  Hmm... so let me reflect on why...
01:50 mugwump everything else is simply an object method on the hash/array
01:53 putter Timeframe is one issue.  A hack for the day would be a no-brainer.  A forever divergence from p6 spec would be problematic.  Someplace in between discomfort grows.
01:54 putter A possible metric is the usual "the next week of development time can buy x or y.  which?"
01:57 putter I started a "ruby on p6" port.  The roadblocks were pugsbugs, and objects being largely unimplemented.  Speed was secondary.
01:59 mugwump autrijus: I'm interested in playing with the IScalarProxy type, I notice that there is an associated class Scalar::Proxy, and I can call .new() on it; what else can I do with it?
01:59 autrijus mugwump: not much yet
02:00 mugwump the symbols "scalar_fetch = fst", what does the "fst" refer to?
02:00 mugwump (in the relevant definition in src/Pugs/Types/Scalar.hs)
02:02 mugwump I see a proxyScalar in Pugs/AST/Internals.hs, too
02:03 autrijus proxyScalar is the one you're looking for
02:03 autrijus it takes two thunks, one for fetch and one for store
02:04 mugwump and yields an IScalar
02:04 autrijus and return a IVar VScalar -- suitable to pass into IScalar and maybe VRef
02:06 mugwump ok, so I could make a primitive that returns such an item, and then make the Scalar::Proxy::BUILD call that?
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02:07 putter Hmm, what is the motivation behind the current focus on PIR?
02:07 mugwump putter: AIUI, to simplify the task of getting to a self-hosting point
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02:13 putter so a path of getting working: pir backend, hs frontend, p6 meta, p6 frontend?
02:14 mugwump Hmm, my comment wasn't quite right is it.  that's a secondary goal, the first is simply to make it easier to compile to backends by reducing the number of distinct operations that need to be translated/tested to the target language/platform.  this should aid in the self hosting goal.
02:16 putter so -BPIR is primarily being used as a motivating case for a kernel-languagey restructing of pugs?
02:18 autrijus putter: PIR codegen is merely a motivating case of PIL compilation
02:18 autrijus putter: the most pressing thing for me is to switch to PIL evaluator in haskell side so our interpreter won't differ from compiler
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02:19 autrijus porting the metamodel to Haskell goes with that.
02:19 autrijus after those two, we'll have reliable way to write codegen in P6
02:20 autrijus for example codegen into P5
02:20 autrijus and _then_ we can port compiler to P6
02:20 autrijus I need to draw some graph to explain all this.
02:20 autrijus (btw, my reply to larry is posted to p6[cl]. feedback welcome)
02:31 geoffb nothingmuch++ for doing all the loop tests -- I just got slammed this afternoon with work stuff, sorry about that
02:32 putter so the top level objective is: replace the current hs interpreter backend because... something.  (a clean backend is a prerequisite for self hosting, and simplifies pursuing it?)
02:33 putter that should have been,
02:33 putter so the top level objective is: replace the current hs interpreter backend because... something?  (a clean backend is a prerequisite for self hosting, and simplifies pursuing it?)
02:33 geoffb that was different how?
02:33 geoffb oh, s/./?/ in one spot
02:33 geoffb sheesh
02:33 mugwump putter: for consistency of behaviour between interpretation and compiled execution
02:34 putter and compiled execution is needed because...X?
02:35 autrijus putter: currently there is no compile phase
02:35 mugwump lots of reasons.  to run outside of pugs, for instance on parrot.  to convert to other code forms.  to boldly run where no dynamic code has run before
02:35 autrijus so we don't get strict, warnings
02:36 autrijus pragmas
02:36 autrijus and "1 = 1" does not fail until runtime
02:36 autrijus there's no semantic analysis.
02:36 autrijus treatment of class literals depend on order of introduction.
02:36 autrijus I think those are reasons enough
02:36 autrijus I hope you agree :)
02:37 autrijus hm, the first paragraph in the perl 6 faq is bad.
02:37 * autrijus mails allison to see if it can be taken down.
02:38 geoffb (Note: this is NOT intended as pressure, I am merely inquiring): autrijus, I've been holding off learning Pugs' Haskell guts on the assumption that the PIL change would pretty much put the internals in a blender.  A) Is this true, and B) when abouts is the planned change?
02:38 autrijus geoffb: this is not true; PIL evaluation will be a refactoring of Eval.hs, not rewrite
02:38 autrijus the planned change is supposed to start happening as soon as 6.2.8 is out of the door.
02:38 putter Oh, I don't disagree with any of this.  I've just been aware for a long time that I couldn't write the one paragrah pithily insightful description of what we are doing, when, and why.  So I'm taking this opportunity to explore it.  Can write up result.
02:39 autrijus ooh, please do
02:39 autrijus I see, you're the interviewer here
02:39 putter Yes :)
02:39 putter good description
02:40 putter so the primary objective is to obtain a compile time?
02:40 putter err, compiler opportunity?
02:40 autrijus right.
02:41 autrijus to not run the parse tree.
02:41 autrijus to allow a semantic analysis of parser tree
02:44 geoffb OK, given the above response, I'm thinking of diving into src/ sooner rather than later.  What is available to help me understand what does what?
02:44 svnbot6 r5462, geoffb++ | hack.pod updates: split ext/Span out of ext/Set-Infinite, and reword the set-related module descriptions to be parallel
02:44 mugwump geoffb: PA01?
02:44 autrijus geoffb: PS02
02:44 autrijus er
02:44 geoffb If the answer is "not bloody much", I may end up writing something, but no promises yet
02:44 autrijus PA02
02:45 autrijus you can augment PA02 :)
02:45 geoffb Is that up to date enough not to lose me?
02:45 autrijus it's up to date enough.
02:45 autrijus it is also nothing much
02:45 geoffb OK
02:45 autrijus but I'm thinking about renaming it into PA02
02:45 autrijus er
02:45 autrijus PA03
02:46 autrijus and leave PA02 as the design thing that putter was interviewing me with
02:46 autrijus i.e. the grand scheme of things
02:46 geoffb .oO( I must be a masochist with the amount of work I pulled onto my pile in the last few days )
02:46 autrijus geoffb: arbeit macht frei
02:47 geoffb wah?
02:47 autrijus "Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work Brings Freedom) was the sign over the gates of Auschwitz.
02:47 * geoffb gets chills
02:47 autrijus it's intended to have that effect :)
02:48 * autrijus hacks on with pirsmoke -- that was (and still is) an insane amount of work too :)
02:48 mja has quit IRC ("good evening")
02:49 geoffb I am reminded of freshman CS, in which the prof gave extra credit on a midterm if you answered the question "What is the best novel ever?" with "The Dispossessed"
02:50 autrijus lol
02:50 putter so the top level objective is to do compiler thingys, rather than running the parse tree?  this requires an alternate tree? PIL?  Eval.hs is refactored to... run this tree rather than parse tree?
02:51 autrijus putter: yes and yes.
02:51 autrijus theoretically we can go the Perl5/Ruby route and augment the parse tree instead of inventing a new minimal language
02:51 autrijus but that makes the life of codegen immeasurably more difficult.
02:51 autrijus and nonlocal optimization virtually impossible
02:51 putter kernel languages++
02:51 autrijus so we introduce PIL as a core calculus of perl6
02:51 autrijus yup
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02:52 geoffb Does PIL though contain enough information to make micro-optimizations relatively easy?  As I recall, P5 does a lot of that sort of thing
02:53 autrijus really?
02:53 autrijus it does constant folding
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02:53 autrijus static lexical lookup
02:54 autrijus that's all
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02:54 autrijus I think
02:54 autrijus oh and void map, and reverse sort
02:54 autrijus sure, all those will be possible
02:54 geoffb (IOW, if everything that loops gets completely abstracted to a single overarching continuation concept, do you then lack the necessary info to do stuff like turn while 1 {} into something really damn simple and fast?)
02:55 autrijus do note that it's just a call to &statement:<while>.
02:55 geoffb ok, fair enough
02:55 geoffb AH!
02:55 autrijus so... the answer is voidly true :)
02:55 geoffb OK, not having actually looked at PIL, I imagined that you had made something between a turing machine and PIR in complexity -- extremely abstract
02:56 geoffb turing machine with continuations?  :-)
02:56 autrijus PIR is between turing machine and PIL.
02:56 autrijus PIL is basically scheme with some more calling convention.
02:56 putter so work on Eval/PIL will begin shorty, and work on PIL-to-PIR is in progress?  Why PIL-to-PIR before Eval/PIL?  The motivation for PIL->PIR is... something.  (reality check on PIL design?)
02:56 autrijus putter: PIL->PIR is keeping us honest.
02:56 autrijus it's trivial to make PIL bloaty and codegen unfriendly
02:56 autrijus by shuffling a lot hidden complexity to haskell runtiem
02:57 autrijus switch to another runtime forces us to define all operational semantics
02:57 geoffb autrijus++ # psychological engineering on himself
02:57 autrijus because haskell runtime and pir runtime (and p5 runtime) cannot agree
02:57 autrijus so all semantic must be preserved at PIL level
02:57 geoffb bah, must go again.
02:58 autrijus otherwise I imagine Eval/PIL producing something that's hard to codegen for.
02:58 autrijus s/for/from/
02:58 autrijus (if we started from that first)
02:58 autrijus so yes, "reality check" is pretty accurate
02:59 autrijus putter: please commit whatever you have written down to docs/notes/ :)
02:59 putter so pir, rather than p5, because...?  (same reason?)
02:59 putter will do. :)
03:01 autrijus because p5 is too smart.
03:01 autrijus similar to our existing hs runtime
03:01 autrijus there's too much logic in p5 code
03:01 meppl what a pitty, that im drunken again - bye
03:01 autrijus even in a single method call
03:01 autrijus meppl: see ya
03:01 autrijus so it does not keep us honest the same way as PIR does
03:02 autrijus otoh, once PIL is more solid, p5 runtime will have a lot of practical value
03:02 autrijus because p5 is known to segfault less.
03:02 autrijus and DBI is written in p5 not pir.
03:03 autrijus so it makes sense to pursue Eval/PIL with PIL->PIR until we have a good idea of what PIL's final form will be
03:03 autrijus then work on PIL->P5 in earnest
03:03 autrijus and maybe PIL->JS etc.
03:03 stevan (PIL->JS)++
03:03 stevan hola autrijus  :)
03:03 autrijus greetings stevan :)
03:04 * autrijus goes to find food and repair PIR
03:04 autrijus putter: please type away more questions if any -- I'll reply when I'm back
03:04 stevan autrijus: I am thinking of implementing Scalar, Array and Hash in the metamodel, but using tie() structures for now
03:04 autrijus stevan: sure, tie() structure is what I'm using in hs anyway
03:04 stevan when you return from food, let me know you opinion of the sanity of that idea
03:04 autrijus same interface
03:04 autrijus so sure, sane
03:05 stevan yes, this was part of the inspiration
03:05 stevan ok
03:05 stevan this way I can do typed containers and ro/rw traits
03:05 stevan and get that out of the metamodel
03:05 putter so the motivation for doing PIL->P5 once PIL has a finalish form is... something?
03:05 stevan then we can compile Perl 6 to Perl 5 :)
03:06 putter :)
03:08 autrijus the motivation is that we can write "use perl5:DBI;" and expect it to work in both hs evaluator and p5 evaluator.
03:08 autrijus and have it work far more reliably in the latter.
03:08 autrijus I prophesy that once that happens we'll enter the "hack hack hack" phase of imaginary perl6 timelinee
03:09 autrijus and out of the current "slowly gaining more respect" phase
03:09 * stevan is very happy that Larry is talking meta-model stuff :)
03:09 stevan hack++ hack++ hack++ :)
03:10 autrijus bbiab. :) &
03:10 putter so at some time X? weeks from now, Eval.hs has been refactored.  the primary objective then becomes... what?  (PIL->P5?)
03:11 stevan I think the PIL>p5 effort will happen simultaneously with the PIL in Haskell effort
03:12 stevan especially since PIL is soooo much cleaner in Haskell than it is in Perl
03:12 stevan but that is not what I am working on, so I can only guess :)
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03:19 autrijus stevan: PIL in Haskell is Eval/PIL is Eval.hs refactoring
03:19 autrijus PIL->P5 will probably happen simultaneously with PIL->PIR and other PIL->* as people find time to work on it
03:20 autrijus I'm equally interested in P5 and PIR targetting, but P5 brings more instant gratification
03:20 mugwump so it's not better to go PIL -> PIR -> P5 ?
03:20 mugwump or does that miss out on too many good integration features
03:20 autrijus mugwump: PIR on P5 is an interesting subject. I suspect it will run very slowly
03:21 autrijus unless you of course link with libparrot and pmcs
03:21 autrijus if so, that is valid approach (and the one allison originally proposes) but I'm not personally interested
03:22 autrijus if we have have a single runloop, why settle with two?
03:23 autrijus and some core parrot opcodes, eg. bsr/ret and tailcc
03:23 autrijus and its calling convention
03:23 autrijus cannot be directly expressed in p5
03:23 autrijus they must be emulated if youa re targetting pure p5 (without linking libparrot)
03:23 autrijus and I suspect it will be slower than acceptable
03:23 autrijus but people are welcome to try :)
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03:38 putter so the comming thing in pugs is PIL?  PIL->PIR provides honesty in PIL design?  PIL->P5 provides reliability and visibility?  PIR->hs/Eval provides... something?
03:38 svnbot6 r5463, autrijus++ | * The Alligator in 0.2.2 prevents the perfectly good 03-equal
03:38 svnbot6 r5463, autrijus++ |   sanity test from working.  Got no choice but to remove
03:38 svnbot6 r5463, autrijus++ |   two lines that prints nothing; need reinvestigate with leo-ctx5.
03:38 svnbot6 r5464, autrijus++ | * remove dead code in Bind.hs.
03:38 autrijus putter: provides clear definition of semantics.
03:39 autrijus putter: taking advantage of haskell's uncanny ability of serving as specification that happens to run.
03:39 autrijus so it is the reference evaluator.
03:40 autrijus until, some day, we finish PIL->Perl6.
03:40 autrijus which would be the last milestone of pugs
03:41 autrijus (of course, the compiler, emitter and metamodel + object space should be all in P6 in the last milestone)
03:42 autrijus but there are two levels of PIL->P6; one is merely a pretty printer
03:42 autrijus which will not need to implement any semantic
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03:42 autrijus the "last milestone" one is however different; it's basically an implementation of a perl 6 virtual machine on top of perl 6
03:43 autrijus it's there so we can replace the haskell one as the reference implementation
03:43 autrijus alternatively, if people all agree that parrot runtime should be the reference one
03:43 autrijus then that step would not be needed
03:43 autrijus hence the "if needed" clause in the pugs roadmap.
03:45 putter so for X in hs,pir,p5, what does a success for PIR->X look like?  (X-smoke?)
03:47 autrijus X-smoke.
03:48 putter an "X-smoke no worse than hs-smoke"?
03:49 autrijus right
03:49 autrijus the success will be quantifiable
03:49 autrijus it's not a 0% - 100% thing
03:49 autrijus er
03:49 autrijus 0% / 100% thing
03:52 putter so what are the parts to an PIR->X?  (an emitter?  an X-Prelude.p6?  a X-native runtime?  other?)
03:52 autrijus assuming you mean PIL->X
03:53 putter oh, yes...
03:53 autrijus the parts are: CodeGen from PIL to X-tree; an emitter from X-tree to X-bytecode; a X runtime.
03:54 autrijus Parser->Compiler->CodeGen->Emit->Runtime
03:55 putter which parts are written in hs, p6, X?
03:56 autrijus only the Runtime is in X.
03:56 autrijus currently all other parts are in hs
03:56 autrijus to be replaced by p6 gradually.
03:56 autrijus X does not enter the picture.
03:56 autrijus except for the Runtime
03:57 autrijus which includes object space, primitives, and maybe more emulation foo
03:58 autrijus oh, replace X-bytecode with X-code
03:58 autrijus we don't quite care whether it's bytecode of other kind of concrete representation
03:59 putter before broadening focus, anything else which should be said about the backends?
04:01 putter so what else is going on as these backends are being developed?
04:02 putter (tests?  frontend?  docs?  somethings?)
04:07 putter rephrased, n weeks from now, three greenish smokes, what else would you like to have seen happen?
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04:16 * masak yawns
04:17 masak morning
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04:24 * QtPlatypus asks a question for confermation "At the moment in pugs where is no way to manipulate raw bytes, everything gets utf-8ed."
04:26 brentdax Hmm.
04:26 autrijus QtPlatypus: that is correct.
04:27 autrijus QtPlatypus: mostly due to the fact that I'm not sure how raw bytes are to be presented in p6.
04:27 autrijus putter: tests are shared. other frontends -- i.e. *->PIL may be interesting, but not of active interest to me
04:27 QtPlatypus And strings that corraspond to illegal Unicode or utf-8 cause pugs to get indigestion.
04:28 autrijus putter: Perl5->PIL is indeed interesting, as is Python->PIL etc
04:29 brentdax Perl 5 interop with DBI.  $sth.execute(...) says "no compatible sub".  $sth.can("execute").($sth) executes happily.  This only happens in a module which is part of a large program--when I write a little test script, it all works fine.
04:32 brentdax Other DBI::st methods (like .fetch) seem to work fine.
04:32 brentdax Any thoughts?
04:42 autrijus hrm, not sure.
04:42 mugwump reducing to a simple test case can really be a bitch sometimes aye!
04:47 autrijus hear hear.
04:48 * autrijus hopes allison will reply that punie is targetting perl6 :)
04:50 obra ?
04:50 autrijus obra: # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.compiler/931
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05:16 putter weeee... putter finishes pass at writeup.  looks at clock, and concludes discussion of frontend can wait 'till another day.
05:16 autrijus ooh ooh mesee mesee
05:16 autrijus commit to docs/notes/ ?
05:17 putter ok...
05:18 autrijus weird, the feature motd looks upside down
05:18 autrijus ¡Ʈu˙9Ʈɹǝd˙ɹǝɥʇɐǝɟ oʇ ǝɯoɔƮǝM
05:18 autrijus s/feature/feather/
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05:22 putter 5465. docs/notes/plan  Too tired to think of a better name.:/
05:22 svnbot6 r5465, putter++ | Added docs/notes/plan - some notes on the pugs development plan.
05:23 autrijus hm, evalbot is offline
05:23 autrijus and borken
05:23 autrijus I wonder why
05:23 autrijus putter++ putter++
05:23 autrijus lunch... bbiab &
05:24 putter It is not the pithy paragraph I originally envisioned.  Who was it that said, sorry for the length of my note - I didn't have time to write a short one.
05:25 putter Any/everyone, feel free to pithify. ;)
05:25 putter Thanks autrijus, was fun.
05:25 putter good night all &
05:26 autrijus nite!
05:26 autrijus &
05:27 putter &
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05:38 geoffb If noone else is working on refactoring putter's note, I'll take a crack at it . . .
05:42 * geoffb begins hacking on it
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05:46 masak putter: (in case you're backlogging) it was supposedly oscar wilde who said "I'm sorry for the length of this letter but I didn't have
05:46 masak time to write a shorter one."
05:47 gaal i think not. voltaire perhaps; checking.
05:53 gaal ah: pascal.
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06:43 svnbot6 r5466, gaal++ | * `require Bar; require Bar` only loads Bar once
06:43 * geoffb is having fun rewriting docs/notes/plan
06:44 geoffb I know developers are supposed to hate documentation, but I just don't.  :-)
06:44 gaal docs can be fun given the right *.
06:45 gaal pugs often has the right * to it.
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06:46 geoffb gaal, nodnod
06:46 geoffb allo, castaway
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06:53 masak gaal: you're right about pascal, the quote is "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." according to wikiquote
06:54 gaal word.
06:56 castaway g'mornin gaal
06:56 gaal hey castaway!
06:56 castaway umm, mornin geoffb .. /me rubs eyes
06:56 geoffb :-)
06:56 * gaal offers coffee
06:56 * geoffb offers tea
06:57 castaway tea :9
06:57 castaway see, you must be a brit :)
06:57 gaal bbiab &
06:58 geoffb castaway, :-)
06:58 castaway mm, you like writing docs, eh?
06:58 castaway I wouldnt spread that about were I you :)
06:59 geoffb I can always say no -- that's the beauty of the bazaar.  :-)
07:00 castaway ,)
07:00 * castaway has bundles that needs writing..
07:04 geoffb Well, if you'd like to spring for my consulting fee . . .  :-)
07:04 castaway heh
07:05 gaal okay, here's something sad: i was experimenting with precompiling Test.pm
07:05 gaal but it causes pugs to segfault :(
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07:06 geoffb bleah
07:06 gaal inconsistently :(
07:06 geoffb double bleah
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07:13 theorbtw1 Segfault?
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07:14 theorbtwo With precompile to AST, or precompile to something more parroty?
07:14 gaal to2: apparently the segfault was just an optimized-unoptimized artefact.
07:14 gaal looking at other problems now
07:15 theorbtwo Ah, that works for me.
07:15 theorbtwo Hm, I should look into the gcc4/ghc problems, possibly, since debian unsable now defaults to gcc4.
07:19 gaal on my fast, machine, ghc peaks at 120mb. i want it to use *more* ram if it needs it. how do i do that?
07:21 gaal i'm not sure if it gets there because of a limit or bacause that's what it needs.
07:22 gaal oh, i just said that and now it's at 175mb. heh.
07:22 geoffb gaal, opt or unopt?  A couple days ago I had unopt peak at 140 MB ghc + 130 MB ld
07:23 geoffb Limbic_Region has seen a peak of 750 MB each for ghc and ld with optimized builds, but that was before PCPrelude.
07:23 gaal optimized. Pugs.Run with large includes.
07:23 gaal on the contrary, PCPrelude increases that figure.
07:23 geoffb Though Limbic_Region may have been compiling on Win32, I'm not sure.
07:23 gaal well not *that* figure
07:23 gaal it increases build-time ram usage.
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07:24 gaal well, it eventually peaked at just under 200mb. hmmm.
07:24 geoffb Build time RAM was what I was referring to.  :-)
07:25 gaal yeah - meant i never saw it anywhere near 750mb
07:25 geoffb gaal, *nix or Win32?
07:26 geoffb (My numbers are on Debian testing)
07:26 gaal win32. on linux my box only has 256mb...
07:26 gaal so i never make optimized there.
07:27 geoffb yeah, opt make OOM kills my linux box (192 MB)
07:27 gaal brb
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07:35 gaal autrijus, ping
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07:39 autrijus gaal, pong
07:39 gaal hey. i'm getting something weird precompiling Test, and i remember something about END blocks...
07:39 autrijus right. :)
07:39 gaal i've basically concatenated Prelude.pm with Test.pm
07:40 autrijus @*END would be filtered out
07:40 gaal but now i'm getting errors about "undeclared $testing_started"
07:40 autrijus yes, because the compilation does not preserve lexical context
07:40 gaal in &test_ends
07:40 autrijus so you don't get visibility
07:40 autrijus you can workaround using explicitly qualified vars
07:40 gaal but some other classes in the prelude do have that: eg Time::Local
07:41 gaal oh
07:41 Aankhen`` Morning.
07:41 gaal no it doesn't :)
07:41 geoffb morning, Aankhen``
07:41 autrijus it doesn't. :)
07:41 autrijus it's an outstanding problem
07:41 autrijus maybe we can workaround it for this release
07:41 autrijus by using qualified vars in Test
07:41 autrijus what do you think?
07:41 gaal errr wait, File does.
07:42 gaal oh and it does indeed fully qualify them.
07:42 autrijus it does not.
07:42 autrijus and that means the three 'my' should really be 'our'
07:42 autrijus the 0 worked by chance.
07:42 autrijus because undef happens to be 0.
07:42 gaal it says the crazy $File::SEEK_START
07:42 gaal ahh :)
07:42 gaal okay :)
07:42 Aankhen`` geoffb >> What's shakin'?
07:43 geoffb Rewriting docs/notes/plan
07:43 Aankhen`` Er... no commits since last night? o_O
07:43 autrijus but I suggest you just use qual now
07:43 geoffb (almost finished with that)
07:43 Aankhen`` Oh, that was my browser messing around.
07:43 autrijus $File::SEEK_START = 0;
07:43 autrijus etc
07:43 autrijus so what about Test? do you think we qual it for now?
07:43 gaal autrijus: sure. but (a) do we just not declare the vars, like p5?
07:43 autrijus that can do
07:44 gaal (b) i hope TEst doesn't make use of the lexicality of vars, eg. with closures
07:44 autrijus would you like to take a look at it?
07:44 gaal i'll happily experiment.
07:44 autrijus please do.
07:44 autrijus gaal++
07:44 autrijus btw if you have parrot
07:44 gaal yes
07:45 gaal external executalble though.
07:45 autrijus you can easily test that with ./pugs -BPIR -MTest -e 'ok 1'
07:45 autrijus that's fine
07:45 autrijus it should exhibit the same bug
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07:45 autrijus for exactly the same reason
07:45 gaal right, i'm on it.
07:45 autrijus gaal++
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07:45 Aankhen`` I have a question: since Prelude is precompiled, does that mean it makes more sense for builtins to be implemented there from now since they eventually need to be written in Perl 6 anyway?  Or will that be done later?
07:46 autrijus Aankhen``: yes, it makes total sense now
07:46 autrijus I said that in my journal
07:46 autrijus new prims should be in Prelude.pm preferably
07:46 autrijus I don't see a need now to completely redo Prim.hs
07:46 gaal we need a way to tag them as pure perl imo.
07:46 Aankhen`` I just wanted to clarify "I expect" vs. "I think they should be". ;-)
07:47 autrijus ok. I expect, and I think they should be
07:47 gaal be it a trait or a documentation convention.
07:47 Aankhen`` OK.
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07:51 geoffb OK, docs/notes/plan updated.  autrijus, can you take a look and see if you disagree with anything?
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07:55 Aankhen`` $I.ve(got => "the power");
07:55 svnbot6 r5467, geoffb++ | rewrite of putter++'s interview/brain dump with autrijus on PIL and Pugs as a compiler
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07:56 gaal Aankhen``, perl4 is clearly superior to p6 as your example demonstrates. (you can spell that "I've" in p4)
07:57 Aankhen`` BAH, I SAY
07:57 geoffb You can spell it in P5, too, but people will look at you funny
07:57 gaal true.
07:57 theorbtwo macro <'> {'::'
07:57 theorbtwo Er, wait, not quite.
07:58 geoffb That could have interesting effects on quoting . . . .
07:59 Aankhen`` macro infix:<'> is parsed(/<null>/) { "::" }
07:59 gaal even though precompiling Test is expected to give another factor of two speedup in smokes, once it works, it involves a significant build time hit.
08:08 autrijus geoffb: I committed chgs. I'll brb
08:08 svnbot6 r5468, autrijus++ | * minor fixes to geofb++'s hackery to notes/plan
08:08 autrijus geoffb++
08:08 gaal does it make sense that i have to fully qualify sub names?
08:08 gaal &proclaim isn't being found.
08:09 gaal it's declared after most of the subs that call it.
08:09 * geoffb pulls
08:12 geoffb Cool, thanks autrijus.  I knew the overview chart would need fixing, but I figured a first pass would help.
08:13 gaal geoffb++ putter++ # helpful docs
08:13 geoffb thanks, gaal
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08:27 autrijus geoffb: it helped a lot! I think I'll just build PA02 out from that and hw2005
08:28 gaal i have a smoke running on precompiled Test. a little soon to say if it's faster though.
08:28 geoffb cool beans, autrijus
08:32 * QtPlatypus can't work out why grep expects Vcode
08:32 svnbot6 r5469, autrijus++ | * acknowledge zeroderef and context bugs as :todo<bug>.
08:33 QtPlatypus Should the following work?
08:33 QtPlatypus grep /a+/,"a","b"
08:33 gaal i think not
08:33 QtPlatypus gaal: Why not?
08:33 gaal iirc only grep CODE LIST is in now?
08:33 * geoffb is several hours overdue for bed . . . time to attempt sleep
08:34 * QtPlatypus nods.
08:34 * geoffb mumbles "It would be spiffy keen if someone were to fix the while+next and related bugs . . . ."
08:34 gaal apparently i'm wrong though... S29 mentions "MatchTest $test"
08:35 gaal but i don't know what MatchTest is.
08:35 autrijus it's Item or Junction.
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08:36 autrijus but for all practical purpose we can limit it to Rule
08:36 autrijus I wonder who added it there, but it makes sense
08:36 gaal hmm, since the reference implementation does a smartmatch, why not put an Any there?
08:37 autrijus that would do too
08:37 autrijus although Any would include pairs
08:37 autrijus grep :x<y>, "a", "b";
08:37 autrijus so I think Item|Junction is indeed correct
08:38 autrijus QtPlatypus: make it a :todo<feature>
08:38 svnbot6 r5470, autrijus++ | * more test cleanups.
08:38 autrijus QtPlatypus: if you would like you can also implement it :)
08:38 autrijus modify op2Grep to do a smartmatch
08:41 * QtPlatypus nods.
08:41 gaal autrijus, any idea why i needed to fully qualify sub names in Test too?
08:42 autrijus gaal: namespace bugs
08:42 autrijus gaal: is it PIR or precomp?
08:42 gaal precomp
08:42 autrijus I bet the namespace isn't propagated
08:42 autrijus so it looks at main::proclaim
08:42 autrijus because it's exported
08:42 autrijus and called inmain
08:42 gaal smoke ended, let's look at the times.
08:42 autrijus I need to fix export.t first too
08:43 gaal duration: 1350
08:43 gaal that's measly :-(
08:43 gaal precomp prelude alone gave ~1400
08:44 gaal but that must meant my experiment is flawed.
08:44 svnbot6 r5471, autrijus++ | * more deref victims.
08:44 gaal looks as if Test.pm is compiled again? /me moves away Test.pm
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08:47 gaal drats, if *did*. but why? i added an %*INC guard. must have had a bug there.
08:49 gaal sysinternals.com++
08:51 gaal aha! %*INC was populated with "Test.pm" instead of "Test". that's probably wrong, isn't it?
08:52 autrijus it agrees with p6.
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08:52 autrijus er, p5.
08:52 autrijus $ perl -MTest -e 'die %INC->{"Test.pm"}'
08:52 autrijus /usr/local/lib/perl5/5.8.6/Test.pm at -e line 1.
08:52 * autrijus gleefully abuses one of the p5 bugs
08:53 autrijus (the %hash->{key} syntax)
08:53 autrijus oh wait, it's a feature not a bug.
08:53 gaal okay, /me gleefully changes his most hacky line yet to %*INC<Test.pm> = '<precompiled>';
08:53 gaal it's a deprecated feature
08:53 autrijus yup.
08:54 autrijus #perl6: Powered By Gleemax
08:54 gaal with no justification whatsoever.
08:54 gaal obviously likeable. :)
08:58 gaal autrijus, what's the advantage of keeping the keys of %INC in filesystem format? classname format looks cleaner to me
08:59 gaal du -b src/Pugs/PreludePC.hs  =>  1763898  # eep
09:01 autrijus gaal: I suspect it's due to require's desugared form.
09:01 autrijus require 'Test.pm';
09:01 autrijus require 'Test'; # won't work
09:01 gaal yeah
09:01 autrijus because you my be doing
09:02 autrijus require 'heya.gaal'
09:02 gaal but we don't like that, do we? :)
09:02 autrijus and then what will its %INC entry be?
09:02 autrijus I do not like it but I see its use.
09:04 gaal why not make require accept only class names? the fs mapping is a runtime detail.
09:04 gaal okay 110 seconds is much too fast.
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09:05 autrijus sometime I may really have some perl code is "config.ini"
09:05 autrijus or "foo.conf"
09:05 autrijus or "heya.gaal"
09:06 kungfuftr or blah.pl
09:06 autrijus yes.
09:06 gaal or http://evil.com
09:06 theorbtwo Or 123341232.dump
09:06 autrijus to not allow that is, to quote tim oreilly, "forgetting our working-class roots"
09:06 autrijus ;)
09:06 gaal so write your own loader, or else we need a primitive
09:07 gaal "working class"
09:07 gaal require
09:07 gaal and a higher level one.
09:07 autrijus but what will %INC be?
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09:08 gaal what does the key of p5 %INC mean anyway? it's some sort of key to the module, not to a class
09:08 gaal because MyMod can contain many classes
09:08 broquaint %INC key = join('/', split '::', $name) . ".pm";
09:08 autrijus the key of p5 is filenames used in require.
09:09 gaal i meant what does it conceptually mean
09:09 gaal it's the name of a unit of code
09:09 autrijus it's the name passed to require.
09:09 theorbtwo It's the file (under @INC) that is being required.
09:09 broquaint It's the name of the file the represents a unit of code.
09:09 autrijus that's what it conceptually means.
09:09 autrijus $ perl -e 'require "/home/autrijus/work/pugs/z"; die keys %INC'
09:09 autrijus /home/autrijus/work/pugs/z
09:09 autrijus $ perl -e 'require "z"; die keys %INC'
09:09 autrijus z at -e line 1.
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09:10 gaal i suppose i'm saying that there's no reason to use "filenames under @INC".
09:11 theorbtwo But there is, because otherwise you can't record things that are only filenames.
09:11 autrijus require 'auto/Tk/Widget.al';
09:11 autrijus require 'open2.pl'
09:11 gaal i mean i want to widen it, not narrow it
09:12 theorbtwo Have it either be a filename or a somethingelse?
09:12 gaal URI:http://code.com/yourmod
09:12 theorbtwo But then you have to worry if this filename and this somethingelse are really the same thing.
09:12 broquaint As long as it's consistent.
09:12 autrijus you mentioned that %INC for Test.pm should key on 'Test'
09:12 gaal Class:Test
09:12 broquaint Consistent!
09:12 autrijus class:Test  -- it's fine by me.
09:12 autrijus p6l p6l :)
09:12 autrijus (but it's really not test, and not module, and not class)
09:13 autrijus it's rather a file.
09:13 broquaint It should key on an INC object, or some such.
09:13 autrijus require does not deal with packages etc.
09:13 autrijus only "use" does
09:13 autrijus I'm fine to have "use Test" record Test.pm in %INC
09:13 gaal the *actual* file is in the value of %INC (as i know you know :)(
09:13 autrijus as well as module:Test
09:14 gaal okay, i'll get back to this, i want to figure out this too-fast smoke business first.
09:15 gaal what might be causing this output?
09:15 bloves has left
09:15 gaal pugs.exe: 1
09:16 autrijus not sure
09:16 autrijus it's an user error using 'error' call
09:17 gaal autrijus, can you review my %*INC patch (opRequire) from earlier today?
09:17 gaal i'm returning VInt 1 if a module has already been used
09:17 gaal so i fear this may be the same 1.
09:24 masak where can one read more about the perl6 semantics of BEGIN et al.?
09:24 svnbot6 r5472, autrijus++ | * remove dead code.
09:25 autrijus gaal: url?
09:25 autrijus masak: hw2005 has some writeup
09:26 gaal it's committed as r5466
09:27 gaal # http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/Source/index.html/pugs/diff/src/Pugs/Prim/Eval.hs?rev1=5170&amp;rev2=5466
09:29 autrijus gaal: worksforme
09:30 gaal it worked for me too, but i though it might have been triggering those errors with the precomp Test
09:31 masak autrijus: thx
09:32 autrijus masak: np
09:32 autrijus gaal: hrm, if you change it to return vint 2, see if it fails with 2
09:32 autrijus I doubt it is the case
09:32 gaal doing just that :) but build is slowww
09:33 autrijus unoptimised too?
09:33 gaal i got segfaults trying to mix them
09:34 gaal and i'm shooting for an eventual benchmark of the smoke, so i did need an optimized pugs...
09:36 autrijus nodnod
09:38 gaal like i said, Pugs.Run is so expensive to compile now I'm not sure it's even worth it to precom Test. :(
09:38 autrijus it makes more sense if we produce Test.so.
09:39 gaal yeah
09:39 autrijus which is actually not very hard
09:39 gaal but then we get into hairy platform dependencies.
09:39 autrijus only to make it more portable, Test.pil is probably what we need to shoot for
09:39 autrijus heh, jinx
09:39 gaal yup
09:39 gaal :)
09:39 autrijus and worse case we can just derive Read
09:39 autrijus and read in the PIL expressions
09:40 gaal won't they be very large? PreludePC.hs is huge already.
09:40 autrijus that is likely Fast Enough. if not, we can use DriFT to derive Binary Read
09:40 autrijus akin to Storable's thaw
09:40 gaal jinx again, only you know the stuff better
09:40 autrijus but I think that's a good idea overall :)
09:40 autrijus probably not push Test.pm precomp for 6.2.8 then
09:40 autrijus but please still commit the crippled -- I mean workaround -- Test.pm
09:41 autrijus I'd like to look at it and see how much I can preserve for pirsmoke
09:41 gaal what do you know, it *is* my %*INC guard.
09:41 autrijus ooh.
09:41 autrijus (bbiab)
09:41 gaal why would returning a value trigger an error?
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09:43 gaal autrijus: http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/Prelude.pm
09:43 gaal i was in q&d mode, so this has the modified Test tacked on to the Prelude.
09:44 autrijus can you sep it out and commit it back to ext?
09:44 autrijus ext/Test/lib/Test.pm
09:44 autrijus that makes it easier for me to diff and work with chunks
09:44 gaal if this is deemed worthy, i can write an evil mangler^W^Wnefarious mutilator to generate a unified Prelude.pm from Test.pm and the real prelude
09:44 gaal sure.
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09:45 autrijus hm, sort of like perl5's prelink build option
09:45 autrijus for platforms without dyld
09:46 autrijus I think it should not be the default, but having it available is a good thing
09:46 autrijus (exactly the same as p5)
09:46 gaal old wheels, new cars
09:46 gaal s/cars/ships/
09:47 autrijus yup :)
09:47 dmo has joined #perl6
09:47 gaal who needs wheels on a ship?
09:47 autrijus exactly
09:47 * gaal works on getting the hawser in shape
09:48 autrijus there is a pirate joke in there somewhere but I will refrain from uttering it
09:48 gaal arrr.
09:49 gaal there was a problem saying "use" from within a lexical scope, right? was it fixed?
09:49 gaal because i'd omitted 'use v6' in my version out of paranoia
09:51 autrijus I don't think that matters.
09:52 gaal r5473.
09:54 gaal brb
09:54 svnbot6 r5473, gaal++ | prelodability mutilations
09:54 autrijus I think I finally fixed export.t
09:54 autrijus testing
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09:59 gaal [off-topic] btw, autrijus, when does par use /tmp/par-SYSTEM for a cache? people showed me a case at $work where cgis that used par (don't ask) used that.
10:00 autrijus SYSTEM is usd on win9x and other cases where I can't determine $USER.
10:00 autrijus you can turn that behaviour off with pp -C or runtime with PAR_GLOBAL_CLEAN
10:01 gaal when might that happen on unix? when /etc/passwd was modified under your feet?
10:02 autrijus huh.
10:02 autrijus $ENV{USER} has nothing to do with /etc/passwd
10:02 gaal oh, env! all right.
10:02 gaal thanks. :)
10:02 autrijus np :)
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10:06 * autrijus lols at Installing /usr/local/lib/perl6/site_perl/mach/CORE/pugs/pge/parrot.core
10:06 svnbot6 r5474, autrijus++ | * Allow exporting into non-main packages; export.t finally fixed. :)
10:14 nothingmuch morning
10:15 svnbot6 r5475, autrijus++ | * more TODOification
10:15 svnbot6 r5476, autrijus++ | * fix typo in test.
10:15 nothingmuch autrijus: i need help with continuations, and your MMD
10:16 autrijus my MMD?
10:16 nothingmuch the current implementation in puts
10:16 nothingmuch pugs
10:17 autrijus oh. the current implementation is not at all scientific
10:17 autrijus what help do yo need with cont?
10:18 nothingmuch okay,
10:18 nothingmuch look in t/statements/{next,redo}.t
10:18 nothingmuch we have some horrible bugs
10:18 nothingmuch next and redo behave like calls instead of gotos: the statements right after them in the dynamic scope are returned to
10:19 nothingmuch i've fixed next in while
10:19 nothingmuch but it's pretty ugly
10:19 nothingmuch i think we should generalize them so there is a 'generate a sym that wil goto this code', a bit more specific than genSymCC
10:19 autrijus ah. I can see why.
10:20 autrijus yes.
10:20 svnbot6 r5477, autrijus++ | * now export is working, fix the misimporting test
10:20 svnbot6 r5478, autrijus++ | * instead of :todo(1), please use :todo<bug>
10:20 autrijus that'd be the right direction
10:20 nothingmuch also look at Monads.hs and tell me if my fix is valid
10:23 autrijus it is valid.
10:23 nothingmuch yumm
10:24 nothingmuch I had no idea what it was doing, so i was guessing 'undef' is the expression evaluated to make a return value for 'last'
10:25 autrijus yes.
10:25 autrijus "esc undef" is basically shifting out to outer dynamic scope
10:26 autrijus and push undef as the reply
10:26 autrijus the inner dynamic scope is then thrown away
10:26 nothingmuch okay
10:26 nothingmuch goody
10:26 autrijus a dynamic scope is deliminated by resetT
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10:29 nothingmuch could you briefly explain Cont in haskell?
10:29 nothingmuch "dynamic scope" means the caller continuation stack maintained by the Cont monad?
10:30 autrijus yes... it is unrelated to envCaller
10:30 autrijus and the "callCC" works inside a stack frame
10:30 nothingmuch we just sync them because it's convenient?
10:30 autrijus yeah
10:30 autrijus callCC snapshots the flow in a stack frame
10:30 nothingmuch callCC replaces the last stackframe with a certain action?
10:30 autrijus and when invoked it resumes execution from there
10:31 autrijus yes
10:31 nothingmuch when who is invoked?
10:31 autrijus when the cc is invoked
10:31 autrijus look at its type
10:31 autrijus ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
10:31 autrijus it is a "Eval a"
10:32 autrijus that demands one argument
10:32 autrijus the argument is a code that gets the CC
10:32 autrijus if it finishes normally without invoking the CC
10:32 autrijus then the resulting (m a) is the final (m a)
10:32 autrijus if it invokes CC with a
10:32 autrijus -- which may be done in any position -- it does not ever return anyway
10:32 autrijus (hence the m b)
10:32 nothingmuch okay
10:33 autrijus then it escapes out with the a as the final (m a)
10:33 nothingmuch and (a -> m b) is the basically the the point to continue on
10:33 nothingmuch that is the thing right after $?CALLER::POSISITION if there was one in haskell?
10:33 autrijus yes I think that is correct.
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10:39 nothingmuch ok, how would you refactor it?
10:40 autrijus sorry; I'm not currently thinking about it.
10:40 autrijus I just got pirsmoke working again
10:40 * autrijus is firmly in relenging mode
10:40 autrijus so I'd be happy to answer questions, but more high level thinking needs to wait until 6.2.8
10:41 autrijus (I apologize for the inconvenience)
10:41 gaal autrijus, i'm not working on Test.pm now (out of ideas re: the error). are we punting on that?
10:41 autrijus gaal: yes, punting on precomp Test
10:41 gaal ok
10:41 autrijus I doubt the gain anyway
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10:41 gaal me too
10:41 autrijus good we agree :)
10:42 nothingmuch autrijus: so should I just repeat what I did?
10:42 autrijus nothingmuch: that would be good
10:42 svnbot6 r5479, autrijus++ | * more unTODO and TODOify
10:42 svnbot6 r5480, autrijus++ | * `make pirsmoke` revived.
10:42 nothingmuch okay
10:42 gaal i just hoped to be able to *measure* it :) but ther's no rush.
10:42 nothingmuch can I do what I did in Monads outside of Monads?
10:44 nothingmuch how is line 380 of Eval.hs (genSymCC "&next") different from any &last?
10:45 autrijus you can do it in Eval.hs directly
10:46 autrijus line 380 captures the point where the next line is runBody
10:46 autrijus so people invoking symNext will then run that.
10:46 autrijus hence, next
10:46 nothingmuch oh, i see
10:47 theorbtwo It doesn't, it just happens at a different time, IOW.
10:47 nothingmuch so how does &last get defined?
10:47 nothingmuch i.e., how is there a symbol
10:47 theorbtwo Which is good, because next doesn't differ from last, except where they go.
10:47 nothingmuch if it happens later?
10:47 nothingmuch or is 'runBody res sub'' not executed at all?
10:48 nothingmuch oh, whoops
10:48 autrijus I hoped I don't have to explain that :)
10:48 autrijus (the genSymCC for &last is the end of the reduction.)
10:48 nothingmuch i was reading it incorrectly, nevermind
10:48 nothingmuch i got it now
10:48 autrijus cool
10:49 * nothingmuch tries to see how todo might be written
10:49 nothingmuch s/todo/redo/
10:51 autrijus I need to run to dinner. down to 8 failed testfiles now
10:51 autrijus (in the main suite)
10:51 gaal wow
10:51 * autrijus hopes to crush them during dinner
10:52 autrijus Tree is still burning, as is Date and DateTime
10:52 autrijus spare tuits to look at them welcome
10:52 nothingmuch autrijus: i looked at date/datetime
10:53 nothingmuch the problem is that MMD is selecting the wrong BUILD
10:53 nothingmuch or at least a problem
10:53 nothingmuch i tried to hack your MMD
10:53 nothingmuch but didn't get far
10:53 autrijus if they are beyond repair for the moment, add them to MANIFEST.SKIP please
10:53 nothingmuch i don't think so
10:53 theorbtwo Better: Add a test for the underlying problem, and put them both in MANIFEST.SKIP.
10:53 autrijus right.
10:54 nothingmuch the case is that BUILD(Str $string) is somehow bound to new(epoch => 123);
10:54 autrijus er, the test for underlying problem can be a dies_ok
10:54 nothingmuch even though there is a BUILD (Int|Real +$epoch) {
10:54 gaal note that i hacked on Test.pm - I may have introduced a bug
10:55 nothingmuch when Str is commented out, then submethod BUILD () is used instead.
10:55 gaal unlikely since 7000 tests still pass, but still :)
10:55 nothingmuch gaal: what did yo8u hack?
10:56 gaal workarounds to allow it to be precompiled
10:56 jaggers guys sorry for the interruption , i need a bit of help
10:56 autrijus Time::Local can't numify anymore? hrm
10:56 gaal they can be reverted, in a pinch -- we're not precompiling for this release.
10:56 autrijus it should have numified to the original time() no? or am I mistaken
10:57 jaggers i ve been to trying to connect to DALnet  , but not successful , i was able to connect thru win XP , but not able to connect thru fedora 4
10:57 nothingmuch autrijus: anyway, should (epoch => 123) bind to (Str $string
10:57 gaal autrijus, did Time::Local ever numify?
10:57 nothingmuch ) at all?
10:57 autrijus gaal: hrm, t/builtins/io/time.t tested something weird
10:58 svnbot6 r5481, autrijus++ | * fix borken test due to nonnumiability of Time::Local
10:58 autrijus nothingmuch: no, it should decidedly fail
10:58 scook0 has joined #perl6
10:58 autrijus ok, two more fails bite the dust.
10:58 autrijus really need to run for dinner now. I'll be back in (say) a hour
10:58 * autrijus waves &
10:58 gaal jaggers, wrong channel?
10:59 jaggers i dunno
10:59 Aankhen`` gaal >> You can't just use a regular, older version of Test.pm?
10:59 jaggers this is wat is keeps saying GAAL
10:59 jaggers * Looking up irc.dal.net
10:59 jaggers * Connecting to irc.dal.net (194.68.45.50) port 6667...
10:59 jaggers * Connection failed. Error: Connection timed out
10:59 jaggers Cycling to next server in DALnet...
10:59 jaggers * Disconnected ().
10:59 gaal jaggers: this is for perl6 development, i don't think we can help you
11:00 jaggers am sorry gaal
11:00 gaal Aankhen``: sure, i was saying, we can revert if necessary
11:00 Aankhen`` Ah.
11:00 Aankhen`` Right, I missed that. :-)
11:00 nothingmuch autrijus: how do i comkpose the return of genSymPrim and genSymCC? symRedo . symNext doesn't work anymore
11:00 gaal jaggers, no problem
11:00 nothingmuch do I need to call updateSubPad N times?
11:01 * Juerd wonders what lwall has been smoking.
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11:02 lightstep blue sugar?
11:03 wilx DALnet isn't dead?
11:03 svnbot6 r5482, autrijus++ | * restore PUGS_VERSION.
11:04 jaggers no i cud connect to DALnet thru win XP , while iam not able to connect from fedroa 4
11:04 Aankhen`` Juerd >> What prompted that wondering?
11:04 Juerd Aankhen``: .foo will be forbidden whenever a topic is used in a method.
11:05 Juerd that is: method foo { given $something { .foo } } will be a compile time error
11:05 Aankhen`` Ah, that threw me off too.
11:05 Juerd See also my post, of which the subject matches /WTF/
11:05 Aankhen`` That should be interesting. :-)
11:05 Juerd I'm amazed and very upset at the same time. This time, I really did lose confidence in Larry.
11:06 Juerd I had anticipated a lot, but not this.
11:06 nothingmuch oh man!
11:07 nothingmuch that sucks
11:07 * nothingmuch wrote a lot of code that uses ./foo and .foo to disambiguate with *HEAVY* (read 2-3 layer nested) topicalization
11:07 nothingmuch and it was nice code to write
11:07 nothingmuch not confusing
11:08 Aankhen`` I used it a lot too... not 2-3 nested layers, but enough that this sucks.
11:08 svnbot6 r5483, iblech++ | * Finished the move of pugsbugs/export.t to packages/export.t and added another test.
11:08 svnbot6 r5483, iblech++ | * Usual svn props added to new t/statements/redo.t.
11:09 Aankhen`` Juerd++ # for writing it up :-)
11:09 Juerd Please let your opinion be heard on the mailinglist as well
11:10 Juerd If only an AOL-ese response.
11:11 nothingmuch done
11:12 * Juerd goes to collect some cash from a client
11:12 Juerd His time is up.
11:13 Juerd Bye
11:13 nothingmuch good luck
11:14 Aankhen`` See ya.
11:15 * Aankhen`` 's "me too" post has been sent.
11:16 lightstep what's with the tendency to preform monadic actions in procedures? like genSymPrim doesn't return m(Pad->Pad), or ifListContext doesn't return (m Bool) ?
11:17 lightstep what about separation of concerns?
11:17 nothingmuch lightstep: please separate concerns... that code is confusing me =)
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11:32 svnbot6 r5484, Aankhen++ | * t/data_types/enum.t: added a few tests, modernised some of the older tests.
11:32 svnbot6 r5485, Aankhen++ | * t/data_types/enum.t: added 'hex' enum.
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11:34 nothingmuch autrijus:
11:34 nothingmuch eep
11:36 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/smoke_xp.html # r5466
11:42 * theorbtwo wonders what bonus: 0 means in the tests.yml file.
11:42 svnbot6 r5486, Aankhen++ | * t/data_types/enum.t: fixed a few mistakes in the previous commit related to quoted numbers.
11:43 gaal more tests run than planned, iirc
11:43 nothingmuch autrijus: help
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11:45 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.91.217 pasted "code that makes infinite loops" (27 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11709
11:45 nothingmuch my impl of for is looping into the redo continuation infinitely
11:45 nothingmuch why is that?
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11:54 svnbot6 r5487, iblech++ | pugs::run -- Added entry about %*ENV<PUGS_COMPILE_PRELUDE>. autrijus: Please
11:54 svnbot6 r5487, iblech++ | fill in the XXX, thanks :)
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12:01 svnbot6 r5488, nothingmuch++ | Ugly fix for redo in for loops
12:02 nothingmuch genSymCC needs to be redone
12:02 nothingmuch it's no good when there are more than 2 escapes involved
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12:06 nothingmuch iblech--; # made my recompilation cycle slow
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12:08 * Limbic_Region shakes his head in disbelief
12:08 nothingmuch lightste1:
12:08 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: ?
12:09 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - did you follow the GHC perl.exe conversation I was having yesterday?
12:09 nothingmuch no
12:09 nothingmuch fill me in?
12:09 Limbic_Region long story short then
12:10 Limbic_Region ghc ships with a perl binary at the root install directory, windows is broken with regards to . and PATH so if you are there you get GHC's perl, if you remove it you won't know it is a problem right away and even then the error message is too cryptic to know what the problem was
12:11 Limbic_Region so I recommended 3 things that could make it more user friendly - rename the binary, improve the error message, have it look at %PATH as a backup
12:11 nothingmuch ghc ships with perl? wtf?
12:11 Limbic_Region well - after a long series of emails trying to convince each other of the validity of our respective perspectives
12:12 theorbtwo Probably because of the evil glasgow haskell compiler, what ghc uses to bootstrap with.
12:12 nothingmuch heh
12:12 Limbic_Region I got an email from a guy at microsoft saying that Windows is broken WRT to . and PATH and that renaming the exe and documenting the fact that changing the root install directory is bad would be a good thing
12:13 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - if you are really interested in why GHC ships with a perl binary - grep yesterday's logs - autrijus linked to relavent sources IIRC
12:13 * Limbic_Region was just shaking his head in disbelief of what he saw coming from a microsoft guy - in writing - from his microsoft account
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12:13 nothingmuch pokknah
12:13 nothingmuch i can't type today
12:13 nothingmuch that was the weirdes typo ever
12:14 lightste1 he's at MS research, not in MS evil empire
12:15 Limbic_Region simon marlow not the other simon - but I suspect you are still correct lightste1
12:15 lightste1 is now known as lightstep
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12:20 nothingmuch fixses tricksy bugses
12:22 nothingmuch anyone feel like untodoing?
12:23 Aankhen`` Are nested `gather/take`s allowed?
12:23 svnbot6 r5489, nothingmuch++ | Same ugly fix for next/redo in loop(;;){} loops
12:23 * Aankhen`` tries it.
12:23 nothingmuch wait, more on the way
12:23 theorbtwo Should be allowed, I think.
12:23 theorbtwo Might not presently work, though.
12:23 nothingmuch Aankhen``, theorbtwo: i think it does work
12:24 nothingmuch luqui and I used it in the pil -> p5
12:24 Aankhen`` Doesn't seem to.
12:24 Aankhen`` Hrm.
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12:24 Aankhen`` Pugs is fabricating array elements.
12:24 Aankhen`` pugs> gather { take "a"; take (gather { take "JUMPED IN!"; take "AGAIN!" }); tak
12:24 Aankhen`` e "c"; };
12:24 Aankhen`` ('a', 'b', 'c', 'd')
12:24 nothingmuch okay, then it did work ;-)
12:24 Aankhen`` Am I missing something?
12:25 nothingmuch oh wait, gather take, not given when
12:25 * nothingmuch idiot
12:25 Aankhen`` `gather { take "foo" }` is like `my @ret = (); push @ret, "foo";`, right?
12:25 svnbot6 r5490, nothingmuch++ | Fix redo test and implementation of next for loop(;;){}
12:25 svnbot6 r5491, nothingmuch++ | redo fixed for while loops... code needs cleanup
12:26 QtPlatypus Aankhen``: Yes.
12:26 theorbtwo Roughly, but with extra added funky lazy goodness.
12:26 QtPlatypus theorbtwo: In a lazy context.
12:26 Aankhen`` Indeed.
12:27 Aankhen`` pugs> gather { take "a"; take "b"; }
12:27 Aankhen`` ('a', 'b')
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12:38 svnbot6 r5492, autrijus++ | * Fix the broken handling of %INC -- the blind `VInt 1`
12:38 svnbot6 r5492, autrijus++ |   broke `use Foo; use Foo;` because the second one does
12:38 svnbot6 r5492, autrijus++ |   not return a VControl ControlEnv as it should.
12:38 svnbot6 r5493, autrijus++ | * identity test for functions should now pass; Eq and Ord
12:38 svnbot6 r5493, autrijus++ |   for function and dynamics redefined to base on 'show'.
12:38 svnbot6 r5494, autrijus++ | * more TODOify.
12:40 autrijus two left: export, examples
12:40 autrijus rafl is working on having lib/* installing to sane paths
12:40 autrijus (maybe list them as subdirs?)
12:41 autrijus I'm still fixing export #2 and examples/quicksort; after that I'll clean up modules. if lib/ installation is done by then we'll enter preflight.
12:42 nothingmuch autrijus: before preflight, i'd like you to look at Date vs MMD with me
12:42 nothingmuch i think the problem is simple
12:42 nothingmuch but I don't know
12:42 nothingmuch either way, all next/last/redo statements are contized now
12:44 autrijus nothingmuch++ # wonderful, seriously
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12:44 svnbot6 r5495, autrijus++ | * align signature_matching's todoity with reality
12:44 autrijus nothingmuch: can you reduce the problem to something in the main test suite?
12:44 nothingmuch i'm not 100% sure
12:45 nothingmuch i'm having trouble actually diagnosing the dispatch problem
12:45 autrijus please try anyway; I'll have tuit to look at that after I fix export and quicksort
12:45 nothingmuch okay
12:46 autrijus mm backlash in p6l
12:46 * autrijus steps back very slowly
12:47 nothingmuch the .foo forbidden thread?
12:48 autrijus yup
12:48 broquaint Ignore p6l, it's just noise.
12:48 autrijus broquaint: sometimes noise makes into synopsis :)
12:48 meppl has joined #perl6
12:49 nothingmuch food!
12:49 broquaint Good idea!
12:50 * broquaint away & # insert pie into piehole
12:51 castaway bah, me hungry
12:54 * Limbic_Region looks around for bah - doesn't see them and says nice to meet you hungry - me L~R
12:55 * castaway pokes Limbic_Region
12:55 * nothingmuch swings from a vine, and saves Limbic_Region from hungry's poking
12:55 castaway this getting a visa thing is turning out to be more complicated than we thought :(
12:55 nothingmuch me tarazan, you jean husband
12:56 * Limbic_Region rewards nothingmuch's gallantry with a bananna
12:57 * nothingmuch is offended by Limbic_Region's obcenety
12:57 Limbic_Region WRT the .method acting on $self thread - is the OO code currently written still valid
12:58 egg|roam has joined #perl6
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12:59 Limbic_Region I really should have been following that thread closer
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13:09 autrijus Limbic_Region: glad to hear spj resolved the bug
13:09 autrijus calling it ghc-perl.exe would be good enough
13:09 autrijus or was it jeffacake?
13:10 autrijus *JaffaCake
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13:15 svnbot6 r5496, autrijus++ | * JeffaCake notes that there is now Linux x86_64 GHC snapshots,
13:15 svnbot6 r5496, autrijus++ |   and we should reflect this in INSTALL.
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13:26 Limbic_Region it was spj that noted clearer docs and renaming the exe were no effort things that could make it easier on the next person
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13:26 autrijus Limbic_Region: cool.
13:27 Limbic_Region I feel really good about the exchange since the original reaction was - you really shouldn't be doing that and I can't think of a good reason why anyone else would
13:28 Limbic_Region autrijus - fwiw, there is a "should I develop in p5 or wait till p6" thread at the monastery - I can post link if interested
13:28 autrijus sure, url?
13:28 stevan autrijus: is Tree still burning?
13:28 autrijus stevan: yes
13:28 stevan morning BTW :)
13:29 stevan autrijus: I think I did that, so I will go fix :)
13:29 autrijus please do :) it's something about Tree::BUILD
13:29 stevan ah
13:29 stevan ok
13:29 stevan I didnt do *that*, but I will fix none the less :)
13:30 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=474125
13:31 * stevan wonders why more people arent using Pugs in production :)
13:32 integral too slow
13:32 autrijus indeed.
13:33 stevan bah! good things come to those who wait :)
13:33 autrijus we really need PIL->P5 to convince the production crowd of adopters
13:33 QtPlatypus Keeps changing.
13:33 integral and I don't trust parrot, and PIR output isn't good enough yet
13:33 Limbic_Region I would be less concerned about the slowness factor than the stability
13:33 autrijus QtPlatypus: strangely though, there are very few regressions in each release
13:34 Limbic_Region having correct code that is only going to get faster wouldn't be a big concern for me
13:34 autrijus but "keeps getting new and/or previously unspecced stuff" indeed
13:34 Limbic_Region but having code that may be b0rk in two days because the wind changes directions would really p!$$ me off
13:35 Limbic_Region I would likely have fun with refactoring previously stable code after new and exiting features were added
13:35 autrijus nodnod.
13:35 Limbic_Region but having to deal with all the changes all at once would just be too much
13:36 lumi The Lilypond folk have a version porter
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13:44 gaal interesting thing, with the %*INC bug. i thought the typechecker would refuse to accept such things :)
13:44 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
13:44 autrijus gaal: it's not a typechecker thing
13:44 autrijus gaal: VControl ControlEnv is still a Val.
13:45 gaal well, i suppose that means i can get back to experimenting with precomp Test. i have a 4596 smoking now, though i did forget to look at the build start time.
13:46 dvtoo has quit IRC ("leaving")
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13:46 autrijus gaal: the smoke report has a "duration"key.
13:46 autrijus it's listed at top of html
13:46 dvtoo has quit IRC (Client Quit)
13:46 autrijus I should know, I asked for that :)
13:46 gaal yes, i know (i added it) but it only counts the smoke itself.
13:46 Limbic_Region hmmm - given my limited understanding of Win32 architecture - I find this behavior a bit odd
13:46 autrijus heh, right, and I was about to say you implemented it iirc
13:47 Limbic_Region I am in the middle of building Pugs and I decide I want to abort, svn up, and make clean
13:47 Limbic_Region I hit ctrl-C and get the prompt back
13:47 gaal i'll time the second pass.
13:47 Limbic_Region I type exit - and it just sits there
13:47 Limbic_Region I check the process table and GHC is still running
13:47 gaal l~r: similar things happen to me too
13:47 Limbic_Region shouldn't GHC have died when I killed the make process since Win32 doesn't have a real fork/exect ?
13:47 autrijus it means it uses CreateProcess
13:48 autrijus but failed to capture SIGINT
13:48 Limbic_Region which for all intents and purposes is the same thing?
13:48 autrijus I think it's a GHC issue.
13:48 Limbic_Region heh - not going there autrijus
13:48 autrijus JaffaCake is still in #haskell -- maybe ask him there :)
13:49 Limbic_Region I am 1 and 0
13:49 autrijus (== simon marlow)
13:49 gaal what i've seen is that ^Cing the tests sometimes takes some time to kick in.
13:49 svnbot6 r5497, Stevan++ | Tree - putting out the fire (i think)
13:49 * Limbic_Region wants to retire a winner
13:49 autrijus lol
13:49 Limbic_Region anyway - I have started another build on trunk so I will be AFK for about 45 mins
13:49 * Limbic_Region AFK &
13:50 autrijus ok, quicksort is the only remaining main suite failure
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13:54 svnbot6 r5498, autrijus++ | * export.t -- putting out the fire (I think)
13:54 svnbot6 r5499, Stevan++ | Tree - pouring more water on the fire .oO( <smoke> )
13:55 * castaway laughs
13:58 Enveigler_ has joined #perl6
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13:59 gaal are you getting failures on pugsrun/09- and 10- ? win32
13:59 autrijus iblech++ # creative use of pzero to parse `multi foo { }`
14:00 dvtoo has joined #perl6
14:00 svnbot6 r5500, Stevan++ | Tree - .oO( *cough* *cough* )Oo.
14:05 wilx` has joined #perl6
14:05 svnbot6 r5501, Stevan++ | Tree - only *you* can prevent forest fires :)
14:05 svnbot6 r5502, autrijus++ | * reflect the `multi foo` shorthand for `multi sub foo` in quicksort
14:05 svnbot6 r5502, autrijus++ |   and in ChangeLog
14:05 svnbot6 r5503, autrijus++ | * add minimal test case for the quicksort testfail in multi_sub.t.
14:05 svnbot6 r5504, autrijus++ | * avoid duplicate #define in Pugs.Version
14:05 svnbot6 r5505, rafl++ | Added Makefile.PL for Inline::Pugs.
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14:07 stevan autrijus: the Tree fire is out
14:07 geoffb Morning, all . . .
14:07 stevan looked like it had to do with the BUILD MMD
14:07 autrijus wonderful.
14:07 stevan morning geoffb :)
14:08 autrijus Perl::MetaModel is still burning
14:08 rafl_ Hm. I try to rename lib/Inline to lib/Inline-Pugs, but svk gives me: Merging back to mirror source http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs.
14:08 rafl_ Commit message saved in svk-commitTkN4a.tmp.
14:08 rafl_ Why?
14:08 autrijus I'm rapidly thinking we should move docs to notes and ditch all code in ext/
14:08 stevan autrijus: that's mugwumps
14:08 gaal pcTest build phase near completion.
14:08 stevan I dont think it is meant to be executable
14:08 autrijus unless mugwump is willing to maintain the p6 equiv to the p5 one in lib
14:08 autrijus in which case it should be made to pass tests
14:08 stevan autrijus: we can move lib/ into docs/
14:08 stevan as they are really just notes IMO
14:09 autrijus mugwump: ideas?
14:09 autrijus rafl_: hm? curious.
14:09 autrijus rafl_: but that'd be wrong still
14:09 * stevan also questions the sanity of the contents of docs/* now
14:09 rafl_ autrijus: Why?
14:09 autrijus better to mkdir lib/Inline-Pugs/lib/Inline/
14:09 autrijus and then move Pugs.pm there
14:10 rafl_ autrijus: OK.
14:12 nothingmuch moose!
14:12 svnbot6 r5506, Stevan++ | Tree - oh no! it still burning <stomp> <stomp>
14:12 nothingmuch stevan: i'm stuck with haskell, so wanna do sigs?
14:13 clkao rafl_: hmm? why would you see that merge back thing when you do mv? or you mean duiring the commmit?
14:13 * castaway grins at the svn messages
14:13 rafl_ clkao: Yes.
14:14 stevan nothingmuch: sure, but I will want your input
14:14 autrijus also, we have conflicting Date.pm in DateTime and Date
14:14 stevan castaway: :)
14:14 nothingmuch no, i mean want me to do thjem?
14:14 nothingmuch and help out a bit?
14:14 nothingmuch MMD in pugs is a bit too hairy for me
14:14 autrijus which means we clearly need to work on multiname library support
14:15 rafl_ Hm. I don't get it. How can I reset my local svk copy to that version on the server?
14:15 nothingmuch rafl_: rm -rf...
14:15 Enveigler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:15 autrijus but seeing Date.pm is all stub, maybe I'll just MANIFEST.SKIP it for the release.
14:15 stevan nothingmuch: ok, but I have to do $work today too
14:15 autrijus (Date.pm in ext/Date/, that is)
14:15 nothingmuch stevan: ok
14:15 autrijus mugwump: ideas?
14:17 nothingmuch i think we should namespace it a bit like CPAN
14:17 QtPlatypus How so nothingmuch ?
14:17 svnbot6 r5507, autrijus++ | * DateTime - remove the erroneous use of colon
14:17 nothingmuch lib/AUTHOR/Module-Name-0.01/Module/Name.pm
14:17 nothingmuch autrijus: now that you've removed the colon from datetime, there are MMD match errors
14:18 nothingmuch with AUTHOR not being only uppercase
14:18 nothingmuch and not being limited to 8 chars
14:19 nothingmuch maybe lib/AUTHOR/Module-Name-0.01/lib/Module/Name.pm so that it's a bit more extensible
14:19 nothingmuch btw, since we're in preflight, smoke report just finished
14:19 Khisanth hmm
14:20 gaal we're in preflight?
14:20 nothingmuch it sounds like it
14:20 gaal i'll have pcTest smoke results up in a bit.
14:20 nothingmuch burning trees, everyone wading through bugs
14:21 nothingmuch seen geoffb
14:21 castaway geoffb went to bed earlier (several hours ago?)
14:21 nothingmuch perlbot: seen geoffb?
14:21 nothingmuch ah, ok
14:21 Limbic_Region seen geoffb
14:21 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: jabbot isn't here
14:22 Limbic_Region ahh - perlbot doesn't keep track
14:22 gaal i'm tempted to add a progress indicator to the harness :)
14:22 geoffb Um, right here
14:22 stevan I just saw geoffb about 20 min ago
14:22 geoffb what's up guys?
14:22 stevan there he is,... get em!!!
14:22 nothingmuch geoffb: all of your bugs are belong to past
14:22 nothingmuch do you have any more tests?
14:22 gaal stevan++ # nothing special, i just like your attitude
14:23 QtPlatypus geoffb was last seen 15 minits ago.
14:23 * castaway scratches head.. 8short sleeper?)
14:23 stevan gaal++ # coffee is goooooddddd
14:23 geoffb nothingmuch, they're all fixed?  Schweet
14:23 nothingmuch gaal: while you're at it, make the parallel harness truely async
14:23 geoffb castaway, yeah, only one sleep cycle last night, instead of two . . . :-/
14:23 gaal suuuure
14:23 nothingmuch parent prints test file names (padded) to pipe
14:23 autrijus we're not yet in preflight because I'm quickly running out of sanity :)
14:23 gaal nothingmuch: if it were written in p6, i'd consider it
14:23 nothingmuch child processes sysread them, and unpack("Z*")
14:24 gaal but it has to work portably.
14:24 geoffb nothingmuch, I'm still reading backlog ATM . . . and last night I put all my energy into docs/notes/plan before falling into bed
14:24 gaal okay, the results are in:
14:24 gaal pcTest is indeed much faster to run (duh!)
14:24 autrijus question is how much and whether it makes up for the comp time
14:24 gaal 782 sec instead of 1368
14:24 nothingmuch autrijus: are you wokring on datetime?
14:25 gaal however, the 2nd compilation phase is about five minutes on my machine
14:25 autrijus nothingmuch: no, I just saved it from parsefail
14:25 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
14:25 nothingmuch autrijus: are you planning on working on it?
14:25 autrijus gaal: so that's still 5 mins saved
14:26 autrijus nothingmuch: my plan doesn't matter... my body will force me into blissful sleep in 10 minutes
14:26 autrijus so not until I wake up, no
14:26 gaal and of course, we already pay some of those 5 minutes on account of the pcPrelude
14:26 gaal i can get the exact delta if it's interesting.
14:26 autrijus gaal: if it can be made optional, I think definitely check it in
14:27 geoffb gaal, but pcPrelude itself already saves net time, yes?
14:27 autrijus "it" being the evil mangler thing you referred to
14:27 gaal it can of course be made so, but i don't want to bloat the build system more
14:27 gaal geoffb, sure it does.
14:28 geoffb I just didn't understand your "we already pay some of those 5 minutes" comment
14:28 gaal i like evil manglers, but i don't like having too many knobs
14:28 svnbot6 r5508, rafl++ | * Moved lib/Inline to lib/Inline-Pugs.
14:28 svnbot6 r5509, autrijus++ | * untodo the now passing next/redo tests, nothingmuch++
14:28 autrijus gaal: bah, the build system can survive another bloat. :) but it's ultimately your call
14:28 autrijus geoffb: the Run.hs 5min build includes both Prelude.pm and Test.pm
14:28 rafl_ Can u push the Version of Perl6/Pugs.pm to 6.002008?
14:28 gaal here's my proposal:
14:28 autrijus rafl_: you can do that.
14:28 geoffb AH, gotcha, thanks autrijus
14:28 gaal put all those build options in a yaml file
14:28 gaal including whether to optimize or not
14:28 geoffb clearly short on sanity from lack of sleep
14:29 gaal and pcPrelude or nor
14:29 nothingmuch and ghc heap size
14:29 gaal and all other things
14:29 gaal and nothingmuch heap size
14:29 gaal errr
14:29 gaal how about that?
14:29 nothingmuch i like it
14:29 jaggers has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:29 geoffb All in favor say aye?  Aye.
14:29 nothingmuch aye
14:30 autrijus I don't particularly like to depend on YAML.pm :)
14:30 autrijus but I can see a minimal yaml parser in two lines
14:30 autrijus so, aye.
14:30 gaal split /:/ :-)
14:30 autrijus but please leave nothingmuch's heap size out of it
14:31 nothingmuch what's bad about a YAML dependency?
14:31 gaal lol
14:31 gaal i had a feeling you'd say that
14:31 stevan we already have a YAML dep for the smoker
14:31 autrijus nothingmuch: it  will increase our dependency list by +Inf times
14:31 autrijus (it's currently 0)
14:32 gaal err, not so, autrijus, we already need a newish MM
14:32 nothingmuch yaml's meta.yml:
14:32 nothingmuch build_requires:
14:32 nothingmuch  Test::More: 0.54
14:32 nothingmuch requires:
14:32 nothingmuch  perl: 5.005003
14:32 geoffb dependency list 0? bwa-ha-ha-ha-haaaa . . .
14:32 pdcawley has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
14:33 * geoffb remembers the day spent finding and building various haskell dependencies for pugs . . . .
14:33 autrijus gaal: er, that means 5.6.2 or 5.8.1
14:33 autrijus gaal: hardly newish
14:33 * stevan ... "I get by with a little help from my friends... gonna try with a little help from my friends"
14:33 autrijus geoffb: CPAN dependency list, silly :)
14:33 gaal well, fwiw, that means you can't build on a vanilla msys.
14:33 geoffb autrijus, I knew that, it just hit my funny bone
14:33 gaal not that i know of anyone who still does that
14:34 autrijus but anyway. I'd like to avoid depending on a noncore 5.8.1 module as much as possible.
14:34 gaal but maybe that proves my point
14:34 gaal anyway:
14:34 nothingmuch YAML has almost no deps
14:34 gaal i'm fine with parsing yaml ourselves
14:34 gaal minimally
14:34 kungfuftr JSON!
14:35 autrijus cool.
14:35 gaal ?
14:35 autrijus gaal++ # make it so then :)
14:35 autrijus JSON is a weird YAML dialect that is somehow welcomed by javascript folks
14:35 gaal okay, i think i'll phone gabor and pick up the wiki router for the hackathon first.
14:36 rafl_ Hm. What about P5-PIL-Run? What is it needed? Should it be installed? Looks suspicious to me.
14:36 kungfuftr JSON isn't YAML
14:36 clkao rafl_: ah, you just hit a bug  which is fixed in 1.01 i guess.
14:36 autrijus actually, all valid JSON is valid YAML, iirc.
14:36 rafl_ clkao: What bug?
14:36 geoffb hmmm . . . why not just include YAML in inc/?
14:36 stevan rafl_: that should not be installed, and neither should Perl6-MetaModel
14:36 kungfuftr autrijus: JSON can be a single line
14:36 autrijus so can yaml.
14:36 kungfuftr and be a huge data structure
14:36 rafl_ clkao: Oh, you mean the svk thing? Yes. Maybe. It works now.
14:36 clkao rafl_: mv tries to do funky things
14:36 autrijus ditto.
14:36 kungfuftr *blink*
14:36 rafl_ stevan: OK.
14:36 kungfuftr 2 secs
14:37 gaal it doesn't say "yaml" anywhere on http://www.crockford.com/JSON/index.html -- but i don't know if that's the official page
14:37 kungfuftr http://www.crockford.com/JSON/index.html ?
14:37 autrijus kungfuftr: and YAML.pm is horribly outdated and broken. :)
14:37 autrijus yes
14:37 gaal kff: 1st google hit
14:37 stevan rafl_: FYI, P5-PIL-Run is the start of the Perl 5 runtime for PIL/Perl6
14:37 autrijus kungfuftr: http://redhanded.hobix.com/inspect/yamlIsJson.html
14:37 kungfuftr ah!
14:38 autrijus all other languages get to use a nonbroken YAML implementation
14:38 autrijus except for Perl5 :)
14:38 svnbot6 r5510, rafl++ | * Moved lib/Perl6 to lib/Perl6-Pugs.
14:38 svnbot6 r5510, rafl++ | * Bumped up version of Pugs.pm to 6.002008.
14:38 svnbot6 r5510, rafl++ | * Moved lib/pugs* to lib/Perl6/Pugs.
14:38 svnbot6 r5510, rafl++ | * Added Makefile.PL for lib/Perl6/Pugs
14:38 svnbot6 r5511, autrijus++ | * more TODO juggling in light of the namespace fixes.
14:39 kungfuftr so you can use the JSON parser instead?
14:40 gaal is yaml.pm core in any versio of p5?
14:40 autrijus gaal: no.
14:40 autrijus kungfuftr: no... Syck can parse JSON; the reverse isn't neccessarily true
14:41 geoffb So, at the risk of repeating myself, why not just have a YAML parser in inc/?
14:41 geoffb Rather than writing from scratch?
14:41 kungfuftr autrijus: bah... soz... head's away with it... too warm here
14:41 autrijus geoffb: I guess 62k isn't much
14:42 autrijus it's pushing it a bit
14:42 autrijus and if all we are using is a single hash with no nestedness, then it's quite wasteful
14:42 geoffb It get 54 MB for the source tree in total . . . .
14:42 autrijus but should we ever need nested data or anything beyond a simple regex parser
14:42 geoffb fair enough
14:43 autrijus then sure, inc/YAML.pm it is.
14:43 autrijus er what? 54mb?
14:43 geoffb Oh, duh, minus 12.7 MB -- I still had a blib
14:43 autrijus er what?
14:43 autrijus are you counting .o files?
14:43 gaal geoffb, that's after a build, surely?
14:43 geoffb hold, on, making realclean
14:44 autrijus 5mb here.
14:44 geoffb oh, phew, only 10.5 MB after that
14:44 geoffb OK, so why am I still off by factor of 2?
14:44 autrijus I have no idea.
14:45 rafl_ Why do we have use lib 'lib' in Makefile.PL? I can't see anything from lib being used there.
14:45 integral .svn?
14:45 gaal df -k if you're on hpux :-P
14:45 geoffb integral, using svk
14:45 gaal (*du
14:45 geoffb I did du -cskx * |sort -n
14:45 autrijus rafl_: I didn't remember. try taking it off and see if it works still
14:45 gaal bbiab &
14:45 autrijus if yes take it out
14:46 rafl_ autrijus: Did that. It does.
14:46 autrijus anyway... 62k isn't much for a 5mb tree. iff it's needed, throw it to inc/.
14:46 autrijus rafl_: take it out then.
14:47 rafl_ autrijus: I replaced that with use lib 'util'. I had some problems in inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm to use PugsConfig.
14:47 autrijus sure.
14:47 autrijus I can't stay up any longer. hack on, and see you tomorrow :)
14:47 theorbtwo Do you have .svn dirs in there?
14:48 * autrijus waves &
14:48 geoffb bye, autrijus
14:48 svnbot6 r5512, bsmith++ | Makefile.PL - get version from lib/Perl6-Pugs/lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm and
14:48 svnbot6 r5512, bsmith++ | use lib 'util'.
14:50 rafl_ Hm. Is he in here? I'm also already working on that.
14:50 integral oh, yep I am
14:50 integral I've just found some more places too
14:51 rafl_ So, please wait a moment. I'm just trying if everything is working and will commit it then, OK?
14:51 integral ok, sorry.  I was just trying to build to check my changes with HEAD
14:52 rafl_ Oh, OK.
14:53 rafl_ What other places did you found? util/config_h.pl and Makefile.PL is everything I needed to change.
14:53 integral that's it, it's building fine atm
14:54 nothingmuch make: *** No rule to make target `lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm', needed by `src/Pugs/pugs_config.h'.  Stop.
14:54 rafl_ nothingmuch: integral fixed that in 5512 I think.
14:55 integral that's the one I missed
14:55 nothingmuch i just synched
14:55 integral rafl_: are you going to commit the rest of the changes?
14:55 rafl_ integral: Yes. I'll do that now.
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14:56 integral rafl_++
15:02 svnbot6 r5513, rafl++ | * Build lib/ recursively, just like ext/.
15:02 svnbot6 r5513, rafl++ | * s#lib/Perl6/Pugs.pm#lib/Perl6-Pugs/$&# Makefile.PL util/config_h.pl
15:02 svnbot6 r5514, rafl++ | * Adjusted path for pugs.pod in debian/rules.
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15:19 rafl_ Is build_subdirs also running the test for each subdir?
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15:30 rafl_ Who want's to fix utils/src_to_blib.pl? It installs everything, including temporary and object files and stuff. That's not really needed, is it?
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15:37 rafl_ What creates the contents of blib/ during the build?
15:38 rafl_ Also p6 stuff seems to be put into blib/. Shoudn't that go into blib6?
15:38 gaal rafl_: (i'm not an expert on MM, but) see PM_TO_BLIB in Makefile
15:40 rafl_ Hm. Can I prevent Module::Install to look into lib to find something to install?
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15:40 gaal sorry, dunno.
15:41 rafl_ ingy, autrijus: Do you know how to prevent Module::Install to look into lib/ to find its stuff to install?
15:42 rafl_ (They're listed in AUTHORS, so I assume they know about that.
15:42 gaal at least one of them is asleep atm :)
15:42 svnbot6 r5515, putter++ | docs/notes/plan: added link to original form, and a note re it not really being an interview.
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15:50 putter geoffb: Thanks for the rewrite.  I appreciate the help.  I have some mixed feelings about the result.   Some information lost, some mistakes added.  Better grammar, but also less dense.  But nice things added.  Anyway, so I added a link to the original, so folks have both, and a note on the liberties I took, which would have been inappropriate if it had really been an interview.  Thanks again.
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15:58 svnbot6 r5516, putter++ | notes/plan: added a note of context at top.  As, being linked from autrijus's journal, many will see it rsn.
16:00 putter masak: "I am sorry for the length of my letter,
16:00 putter but I had not the time to write a short one."
16:00 putter [Blaise Pascal [1]]
16:01 putter http://www.vendian.org/envelope/dir1/cant_explain.html
16:01 putter tnx :)
16:05 putter geoffb++
16:07 gaal what can i assume about make? is there a minimum standard for rules that { gmake, nmake, bsd make } agree to? i just want "if".
16:07 putter And, I forgot last night to say, thanks to mugwump++, geoffb++, stevan++, and anyone I missed, for your help collecting ideas for the note.
16:08 putter gaal: perl?
16:08 gaal hmm
16:08 gaal i might actually do that.
16:10 gaal how long can an environment variable typically be, on the worst of OSes?
16:11 gaal is 100 chars still safe?
16:11 gaal 150? 250?
16:11 putter 10? ;)
16:11 lightstep enough to store PATH
16:11 gaal :-)
16:11 Limbic_Region Failed 6/355 test scripts, 98.31% okay. -2/6342 subtests failed, 100.03% okay.
16:11 lightstep that is, dozens of chars
16:11 Limbic_Region -2 tests failed - 100.03% ok
16:11 Limbic_Region got to love those numbers
16:11 Limbic_Region ;-)
16:12 gaal how many dozens is the crux of the matter
16:12 dudley gaal: I think VMS has a limit of 255...
16:12 gaal i think i can live with that.
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16:13 gaal 100 will probably be okay for what i need too, but 50 is iffy.
16:14 gaal the idea: config.yml has key/value pairs. you set those with an editor or a Configure script (not included).
16:15 gaal the pro is that there's a standard way to override those w/o going to the editor again
16:15 gaal env PUGS_OPT=key:val make
16:17 gaal (usually you don't need that at all)
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16:19 putter re "standard way", but note that it is os specific.  so ok for users, but needs to be wrapped by perl in makefiles.
16:20 gaal by os specific you mean that there's no env on windows, or something else?
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16:24 dudley There's no env on VMS, either. I get the distinct feeling that I'm going to end up trying to port Perl6 to VMS someday...
16:25 gaal dudley: how do you pass args to make on vms? just command line?
16:26 dudley Gnu make barely works on vms. MMK is the standard build tool.
16:27 gaal the drive here is primarily to put all build preferences in one place; making that overridable from either the command line or the environment is very important but not crucial. anyway a vms is not for a while is it? :)
16:27 gaal *a vms port
16:27 dudley Yeah, i was mostly joking.
16:28 dudley I do need it to run on VMS eventually, though.
16:28 gaal beh, use ghc to crosscompile.
16:28 gaal you didn't say you needed it to *build* there :)
16:29 dudley :-)
16:30 putter JeffaCake/autrijus re Linux x86_64 GHC snapshots... but do they actually work?  the two I tried failed to make.  (just a cautionary note while backlogging...)
16:30 * dudley wanders off to find a bookstore &
16:31 putter &
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16:36 putter Re inconvenience of changing p6 spec, I can't find the quote now, but Denis Richie(?) wrote how he realized having whitespace be significant (or space vs tab??) was a mistake a couple of weeks(?) after doing it (in 197x(?)), but at that point he had too many users (order-10 (?)) to fix it.
16:40 gaal Stuart Feldman, and it's a great story, but i can't find the quote either.
16:42 gaal http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch15s04.html
16:43 gaal " And then a few weeks later I had a user population of about a dozen, most of them friends, and I didn't want to screw up my embedded base. The rest, sadly, is history."
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16:46 putter :) thanks!
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16:47 cognominal tab should not even be a character, more like a mecanographic device
16:48 * gaal likes the librarian job
16:48 gaal # http://www.livejournal.com/users/gaal/2002/03/14/
16:48 putter gaal: knobs, please knobs.  (backloging)  5 min is deadly in a development cycle.  way too much for "does it work _now_?".  but precompiled speed great for "ok, think so, run make test".  knobs.
16:48 jiing has joined #perl6
16:49 gaal brb, $work phone
16:51 putter re OED balcony service :) :)... now if only it wasn't 1/4 way round the planet.
16:53 revdiablo hmm, is anyone else using  {''}  instead of  <>  with nested hashrefs, just to maintain symmetry? I mean,  %hash{$foo}{$bar}<baz>  just looks ugly to me.
16:53 gaal putter: i'm aiming for Standard Knobbage
16:54 gaal so instead of vi SOMETHING ; env THIS make THAT
16:54 gaal you either vi config.yml and make away,
16:55 gaal or override via env
16:55 gaal but hopefully the names stay the same
16:55 gaal of course you should be able to change anything, but right now if you grep util for ENV you'll see there are too many disparate entities
16:56 gaal re: the look-up service, i regret to say that although i'd love to, i cannot take email requests at this moment.
16:56 putter ;)
16:57 gaal revdiablo: %hash<<$foo>><<$bar>><<baz>> ? :-)
16:57 gaal prolly not a good idea though.
16:57 revdiablo heh
16:57 gaal since they may contain spaces.
16:57 putter Have an OED around here someplace.  Misplaced it.  One volume, with teeny tiny print.  Wish I had a monitor with print like that.
16:58 gaal well, i bet you didn't lose the magnifying glass that came with it -- those are huge
16:58 gaal i actually have the full version here. snatched it in an inexplicable bargain.
16:59 gaal they sold for a while at an insane discount, but the real insane thing was that they charged shipping as if it were one volume.
16:59 gaal the whole deal was for under $400 (instead of $3000).
17:01 geoffb putter, noticed this window was blue, so have just read what you said to me (and nothing else in backlog yet) . . . sorry to have messed up your stuff, I thought I had captured most of what you had included.  Sigh.
17:03 putter Oh hey, no problem.  Appreciate the work.  Especially since past experience has shown folks find my draft design space notes dense to the point of being incomprehensible.
17:04 gaal textwork is hard. team textwork is also hard. /me returns to configuration matters which are of course easy
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17:07 geoffb Funny thing is, I debated just leaving the original intact at the bottom, and finally decided against that, because "Curious people can always look at the change history."  putter had the better option -- drop the old text but add a link to the old revision.  I'll remember that for next time. :-)
17:08 putter You did (capture most).  Was good.  With added link to old, readers in better state.  gaal: :)
17:08 putter ah.  interesting.
17:08 geoffb putter, also you mentioned earlier that I added some mistakes -- but a diff doesn't show you edited content stuff.  Is there something that still needs to be changed?
17:09 putter let me see...
17:10 putter yeah... sigh.
17:11 putter do we have stats on how many people read autrijus's journal?
17:12 * Limbic_Region isn't sure that's possible
17:12 geoffb Limbic_Region, a lower bound certainly is . . . .
17:13 geoffb (and I suspect that lower bound wouldn't be more than an order of magnitude off at worst)
17:13 gaal putter: no way to do that. it's syndicated.
17:13 Limbic_Region for non-anonymous readers - see http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/fans
17:13 gaal at least 8 users on LJ :)
17:13 putter ;)
17:14 gaal plus probably the planetperl aggregators?
17:14 Limbic_Region as I said - not sure its possible to know
17:14 gaal i'm sure it isn't. :)
17:15 * geoffb assumed most of the other sites would be links, not wholesale syndication . . . bah
17:15 geoffb syndication--
17:15 Limbic_Region even if it weren't - it is still only an approximation to parse the logs looking for unique IPs
17:15 Limbic_Region you have proxies that make many people look like 1
17:16 Limbic_Region and with DHCP - 1 can look like many
17:16 geoffb Yeah, that's why I said "lower bound within an order of magnitude" . . .
17:16 geoffb and you wouldn't do unique IPs.  For a daily journal, it would better be hits.
17:17 Limbic_Region ick - I check his journal several times a day
17:17 geoffb crazy bastard
17:17 Limbic_Region why?
17:17 Limbic_Region I don't have an RSS feed so it is the only way to know if there are comments or updates
17:18 geoffb Can't use an RSS feed, you mean?  I know use.perl generates various RSS feeds . . . .
17:18 Limbic_Region no
17:19 geoffb Comments I can see being a problem
17:19 Limbic_Region I don't have = I don't use
17:19 gaal bbiab
17:19 Limbic_Region see - I don't ever get anything done because I am too busy keeping up with what everyone else is doing
17:19 Limbic_Region literally
17:20 geoffb I think it's time to get away from the keyboard.  I'm just not mentally all there today.
17:20 Limbic_Region TTFN geoffb - enjoy
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17:31 putter geoffb: me too.  worry about plan later. ?
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17:42 Aankhen`` (backlogging) Limbic_Region: Re ^C-ing the build process: try repeating it a few times.  A similar thing happens to me when installing a module from CPAN: if I ^C it, it drops me back to the regular DOS prompt, but the commands are interpreted as if by the `cpan` shell, and I have to keep pressing ^C for a while.
17:43 Aankhen`` `cpan` is actually a lot worse, since I'm running it, it runs `nmake`, and then `nmake` runs `cl` or whatever.
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17:46 gaal alias kill kill -9   :-)
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18:13 Aankhen`` Wow... Pugs really starts up fast now. o_O
18:14 gaal aankhen``: are you using the precomp test as well? i hand out free sneak previews if you want. :)
18:14 Aankhen`` No, I don't run `nmake test`. :-P
18:15 Aankhen`` I was just running the interactive shell.
18:15 gaal that does make things faster. :)
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18:15 Aankhen`` Hehe.
18:19 putter http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/ smoke has gone bogus.  27 test cases.
18:19 Aankhen`` putter++ geoffb++ # docs/notes/plan
18:19 svnbot6 r5517, iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
18:19 svnbot6 r5517, iblech++ | * Minor typo and grammatic fixes: INSTALL, gen_prelude.pl,
18:19 svnbot6 r5517, iblech++ |   lib/Inline-Pugs/Makefile.PL, docs/notes/plan, ChangeLog.
18:19 svnbot6 r5517, iblech++ | * Renamed docs/other/SHOT_IN_THE_FOOT to docs/other/shot_in_the_foot, as all
18:19 svnbot6 r5517, iblech++ |   other files in docs/other/ are all-lowercase, too (consistency).
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18:26 svnbot6 r5518, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - changed all croak()s to confess()s (mmmm stack trace :); added Perl6::Container::Scalar as a (tied) stand in for real container types; added tests for it as well; next step is to actually use it in the MetaModel;
18:27 putter I thought make pirtest was working?  With 6.4.1.yesterday, 0.2.2, and pugs head, my sanity is all dubious.
18:27 putter And everything else is Can't locate Test in @*INC.
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18:33 Ovid OK, I think I'm a little irritated with Pugs right now.  Specifically, I went ahead and did a "sudo make install" and just hosed my Perl installation due to many Perl 6 modules overwriting Perl 5 modules.  Why did Pugs do that?  Is this something I was just supposed to "know"?
18:34 putter Here is a project for someone with bits on feather - set up a pair of smoke and pirsmoke.  Noone seems to be running a pirsmoke yet, and we'll need it, and on feather perhaps multple people keep smoking going reliably.
18:34 putter Ovid: thats _very_ not the right thing.  I suspect no one is really testing make install.
18:35 gaal putter: i'll do that once i get tuits.
18:35 putter gaal++
18:35 Ovid Ah, jeez.  I'm seriously screwed.  I've got a ton of work to do and I have no idea how long it's going to take to rebuild my Perl install.
18:35 gaal Ovid: definitely a bug.
18:36 Ovid When I did the install, I got lines like Installing /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/HTTP/Headers.pm
18:36 Ovid That looks normal, but that's a Perl 6 module which overwrote my Perl 5. :(
18:39 stevan anyone have any idea how to return a tied scalar from a subroutine and how have it do return tied($scalar)->FETCH ???
18:39 svnbot6 r5519, Aankhen++ | * edited docs/notes/plan.
18:39 stevan (this is a Perl5 question relating to the perl6 metamodel :)
18:39 Khisanth hmm
18:40 Khisanth Ovid: you didn't get a /usr/lib/perl6/ ?
18:40 Ovid No.
18:41 Khisanth hmm which version?
18:41 Ovid I'm going through the module list right now to see if I can automate the fix or if I have to wipe out Perl and start over (not very easy)
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18:41 Khisanth create a bundle and force install?
18:42 Ovid Khisanth:  it's overwriting 5.8.6:  Installing /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.8.6/Test/Builder.pm
18:42 Ovid Hmm, a bundle might work.
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18:50 Ovid A bundle won't work.  Core modules that cpan and cpanp require have been overwritten.  Even 'lib' was blown away :(
18:50 svnbot6 r5520, putter++ | Its quite a kludge, but this will stop anyone else from getting burned by make install until we figure out whats going on.
18:51 Aankhen`` I use `nmake install`; modules seem to install alright into the PREFIX directory.
18:51 gaal putter++ # stopgap
18:52 Aankhen`` Then again... EVERYTHING installs into the PREFIX directory, including lib/ (as-is).
18:52 putter I added an extra install: target to Makefile.PL.  Intended to say "sorry, disabled", instead it causes a : vs :: conflict error.  But that's hopefully good enough.
18:52 Ovid Aankhen:  Regardless, this much destruction should not happen.
18:52 Aankhen`` Indeed...
18:55 putter Ok, my Makefile.PL patch did make make install safe... by completely breaking the Makefile.  Regressed.  So we still need a stopgap...
18:56 Khisanth Ovid: so which version of pugs did you install?
18:56 Ovid Fresh from svn.
18:57 Ovid Version: 6.2.7 (r5516)
18:57 svnbot6 r5521, putter++ | Makefile.PL patch broke the build.  Removed.  Deadly make install is back.
18:57 Khisanth oh... I guess someone broke the Makefile between 6.2.2 and now
18:57 gaal perl -i.bak -pe 's/^(install.*)/$1\tfalse/' the generated Makefile?
18:58 gaal missing an \n at the end of the substitution there.
18:58 stevan eval? class Foo { has $.bar is ro; submethod BUILD ($.bar) {} }; my $foo = Foo.new(bar => 42);
18:59 stevan oop :)
18:59 gaal evalbot isn't up, stevan.
18:59 stevan bah!
18:59 stevan ok
18:59 stevan thanks gaal  :)
19:01 putter Khisanth: so make install was doing the right thing, whatever that is, at some point in the past?
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19:02 * gaal has only ever made install once. but it worked then!
19:02 svnbot6 r5522, putter++ | Added purely advisory "do NOT use make install" to Makefile.PL.  Still dangerous.
19:03 putter I've added a purely advisory "dont run make install!" after the *** Enter make to build Pugs.  But we really should disable it until its fixed.
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19:03 Khisanth putter: I installed 6.2.2 through CPANPLUS and it seems to be in /perl6 as expected
19:03 gaal it was months ago, so that doesn't help tracebacking much.
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19:04 putter looking...
19:04 gaal (it == the version i installed, not yours, Khisanth)
19:05 putter Ovid: thank you.  if that had gone out a release... "shudder".
19:05 Ovid No problem.
19:05 Khisanth hrm
19:05 Khisanth so safe to assume 6.2.6 didn't have this problem?
19:07 Ovid I don't know.  I haven't touched Pugs in a while as I've been stuck on a huge contract and now am prepping for OSCON.  This was just a lark.
19:07 dudley I did a make install within the last week, and it went in /perl6
19:07 svnbot6 r5523, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Cookies:
19:07 svnbot6 r5523, Aankhen++ | * modified &scan to pass rw parameters to callback.
19:07 svnbot6 r5523, Aankhen++ | * implemented &as_string.
19:09 putter rafl: ping
19:11 Ovid is now known as Ovid_afk
19:13 putter Does svn have a line-by-line revision attribution?  Colorized?
19:13 integral svn blame?
19:13 gaal svn praise
19:14 putter thanks!
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19:15 eric256 hey. if  i wanted to add something to Prelude.pm .... is there somewhere i should ask first?  BTW i want to add a .shuffle method to arrays, seems like something that gets done enough to put in prelude.
19:16 gaal eric, yes, propose it on p6-l, and have it added to S29.
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19:16 * eric256 suppose a local working version would go a long way towards getting the go ahead?
19:17 gaal sure, though the most important things are probably the function signature and an argument for the algorithm you've chosen to implement this in.
19:17 gaal plus why this should be in the prelude, of course.
19:18 eric256 in prelude becuase its cheap enough to add, and i'm pretty sure (thought possibly wrong) that fisher_yates could be considered the standard, so why make people keep coding it? ... /me realizes i don't need to argue for it hear, just testing it out
19:18 gaal read around about shuffles - i seem to recall a discussion that compared a few. fisher-yates wasn't the only interesting one there.
19:19 gaal unfortunately i have no idea where i did see it, except that maybe it was in some functional programming forum or faq or archive.
19:21 eric256 mhm okay. i'll get the bones laid out and working, then look into better solutions.
19:21 eric256 make will recompile Prelude.pm right?
19:21 gaal sure.
19:21 eric256 does this mean perl can now cache compiled versions of modules for quiker load times?
19:22 gaal when developing this, though, you may find it faster not to rebuild pugs every time
19:22 gaal set PUGS_BYPASS_PRELUDE=1 in your env, and use -I src/perl6 -MPrelude
19:22 eric256 will it know to use the edited Prelude.pm ?  or should i just code it in a seperate file at first, then merge when working?
19:22 eric256 or that would work. ;)
19:22 eric256 thanks
19:23 gaal np :)
19:23 gaal re: caching arbitrary modules, we're not there yet, but backlog a bit, there's been discussion about it today.
19:23 svnbot6 r5524, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Cookies: implemented :host, :uri_path and :normalize_path.
19:28 putter eric256: it sounds like something which to start with should simply go in a module.  then if gets made part of Array, it can be moved to the Prelude, or to some Array.pm if that's been spun of by then.
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19:29 putter Bah, makefiles.  Lets use rake. ;)
19:32 putter eric256: one of the nice things in p6, is one can simply do module SomeArrayExtensions; method Array::foo()....  use SomeArrayExtensions;
19:33 eric256 yes. but a whole module for array shuffling seems silly. either way i can't seem to get this working anyway..../me attacks from a different angle.
19:34 Aankhen`` I think I'll leave the last two methods from HTTP::Cookies for another time. :-P
19:34 gaal be sure to "is rw" :-)
19:34 svnbot6 r5525, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Cookies: implemented &set_cookie and &set_cookie_ok.
19:34 * Aankhen`` wanders off.
19:37 eric256 hmmm....number of elements in array is?? not .length or .elements  
19:38 gaal .elems
19:38 eric256 hehe. shortend the wrong one. thanks gaal....i've been away for too long, its all coming back slowly though
19:39 gaal t/data_types may come in handy, eric256.
19:39 eric256 thanks i'll go look around in it.
19:39 gaal np. dinner &
19:39 * eric256 things long forms should work too...but that would probably be wastefull namespace pollution
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19:42 rafl_ putter: pong
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19:56 * Limbic_Region wonders WTF this message nmake is spitting out is all about
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19:58 eric256 i wonder that pretty much nmake says anything
19:59 nothingmuch uh, wtf?!
19:59 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/pugs_test_status/
20:00 gaal_ look on the bright side, nice duration.
20:01 eric256 hmm. i did what gaal said to load perlude.pm at run time, edited, got it working, then recompiled and tried and the changes appears gone.. (change = added Array::shuffle sub)
20:02 gaal_ does your pugs have other prelude functions?
20:05 eric256 lemme see.
20:05 eric256 "hello".as(""); prints undef in the interactive shell
20:05 gaal_ what does open("AUTHORS").readline.say say?
20:06 eric256 a whole bunch of authors names
20:06 gaal_ well, you do have *a* prelude
20:07 gaal_ are you sure your prelude.pm still has your code?
20:07 gaal_ if yes, try incrementally making cleaner and cleaner.
20:07 eric256 yep
20:08 gaal_ start by just rm pugs ; make
20:08 putter rafl_: make install overwrote someone's p5 lib/ with p6 stuff.  yipes.  saw you had been working with lib/ handling and wondered if you had any ideas.  after a long pause, I'm again looking into it...
20:08 gaal_ then delete src/Pugs/PreludePC.o and .hi
20:08 gaal_ then make clean
20:08 gaal_ etc.
20:09 cdpruden has joined #perl6
20:09 eric256 okay. i'll see if i can find when it starts working agian. (i'm guessing that is what you are looking for)
20:09 vel has joined #perl6
20:09 gaal_ yup
20:10 gaal_ i'm however low on wakies so i'm not here for long
20:12 eric256 online a PreludePC.hs file... is that the one you meant?
20:12 eric256 Prelude.(hi|hs|o) are there as well
20:12 eric256 s/online/only/
20:12 eric256 ls
20:12 gaal_ uh, sorry, make that Run.hi and .o
20:13 * eric256 hopes that deleting the .hs file isn't bad?
20:14 gaal_ nope, svn up to restore it
20:14 rafl_ putter: Right, I'm working on that.
20:15 eric256 hmm svn says that file isn't under svn control....now what did i break...
20:15 gaal_ which one, ppc? oh, right, that's autogenerated so you really did no harm :)
20:15 gaal_ make again.
20:15 eric256 NMAKE : fatal error U1073: don't know how to make 'src\Pugs\PreludePC.hs'
20:16 * eric256 is no longer allow to play in the src directory
20:16 gaal_ uh, is this a recent r?
20:16 eric256 yep. just updated an hour ago...unless the update didn't take.
20:17 gaal_ nmake clean and try again.
20:17 gaal_ i gotta go now, good luck. :)
20:17 eric256 thanks for all the help so far
20:17 gaal_ np :)
20:17 svnbot6 r5526, gaal++ | mini-YAML parser, to be used by the build system to handle prefs
20:18 eric256 great...one of the commands from nmake clean is too long
20:18 gaal_ you need a newer make
20:18 gaal_ http://forum2.org/gaal/pugs/nmake.exe should do the trick.
20:18 gaal_ night :)   &
20:19 Limbic_Region eric256 gaal_'s nmake.exe might break about a missing .dll - it is also freely downloadable off the net
20:20 putter &
20:20 Limbic_Region msvcr71.dll in case it matters
20:20 * Limbic_Region calls it a day
20:20 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:20 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("You and me against the world? Great! When do we attack?? [Time wasted online: 2hrs 16mins 7secs]")
20:20 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("a night")
20:20 putter Everyone is leaving... :(
20:24 eric256 yea. that at leans finished the clean correctly...... and now SVN update found tons of changed files....odd
20:33 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
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20:39 brentdax Is there a reason for the warning against running 'make install'?
20:40 putter It smashed someone's p5 lib/ with p6 files.
20:41 putter Cause unknown.  rafl_ is looking into it.
20:41 * putter wonders if there might be a connection with make test and smoke being br0ken.
20:42 putter Is anyone looking into what happened to use()?
20:43 brentdax I see.  This makes my life a tad difficult, but I'll find a way to manage...
20:43 putter t/01-sanity/06-use.t is failing...
20:44 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:45 dudley putter: That one's passing here...
20:45 * putter wishes there was log file with one test summary line per revision.  Good for detecting regressions, good for figuring out when/why the world broke, etc.
20:46 stevan putter: I think nothingmuch is working on just such a thing
20:46 * dudley has wished for the same thing
20:46 stevan on top of Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix
20:46 dudley ah, good, cause tuits are in especially short supply for me right now
20:46 putter dudley: I'm failing with Can't locate lib.pm in @*INC.  Clean build of head.
20:48 putter After make;make test, there is no blib6/lib. !?!
20:48 dudley putter: I've got a dirty build running make test right now
20:49 putter @*INC contains /usr/..., so if you ever did a make install in the past, you may be running on those files.
20:49 putter Do you have a blib6/lib?
20:50 dudley Nope, you're right
20:50 svnbot6 r5527, cdpruden++ | Typo fix; missing pipe in regexp
20:51 putter rafl_: note blib6/lib is nonexistent after make on pugs head.  fyi.
20:59 Chris62vw has joined #perl6
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21:04 putter Just to save me time in binary search of revision space, what is the latest revision anyone has which _does_ have a ./blib6/lib directory?
21:04 Chris62vw has left
21:04 putter Thanks.
21:05 vel has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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21:05 putter r5480 is ok.
21:06 vel has joined #perl6
21:10 stevan can I get a Perl6 sanity check?
21:10 vel has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:10 stevan class Foo { has $.bar is ro; }
21:10 stevan the "is ro" should only relate to autogenerated accessors right?
21:11 stevan otherwise you could never assign to $.bar
21:11 vel has joined #perl6
21:11 stevan because it would make the underlying scalar container read only
21:12 putter gaal_: re knobs, how about a 'make quickly' target which is make unoptimized and dont precompile the prelude?
21:14 putter stevan: would you believe 'is ro' doesnt appear in (an old copy of) the bible?
21:15 stevan yup
21:15 stevan the bible is unclear on this
21:15 putter better yet, \bro\b doesn't appear.
21:15 stevan but I have a vague recollection of Larry and Autrijus talking about this at the hackathon
21:16 stevan putter: "is ro" is the default for class accessors
21:16 putter wait, doesnt "is rw" just mean create r and w accessors?  so "is ro" == "is r".
21:16 stevan and then generates an accessor only
21:17 putter ah.
21:17 theorbtwo Depends on where you mean, I think.
21:17 stevan but "is rw" makes the accessor and the mutator
21:17 theorbtwo Do you mean on vars with class scope?
21:17 theorbtwo Or do you mean on arguments?
21:18 stevan theorbtwo: I am speaking only about "has $.bar is rw" in class definitions
21:18 theorbtwo Ah.
21:18 stevan has $.bar is ro; should make a rw scalar container but only generate a read accessor
21:19 theorbtwo Ja.
21:19 cdpruden has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:19 stevan ok
21:19 theorbtwo (I think... and it was my RFC, dammit, not that it means anything.)
21:19 stevan so the "is <trait>" on 'has' attributes does not apply to the underlying container
21:20 dudley has quit IRC ()
21:20 stevan theorbtwo: I am trying to fake basic container types in the metamodel with tie(), this is why I am asking
21:20 theorbtwo Ah.
21:20 putter autrijus's post-hackathon p6l post had some discussion of "is constant", etc...
21:20 theorbtwo Yeah, that's right.
21:21 stevan I had passed the "ro" on, and things got really ugly :)
21:21 stevan cause I could no longer assign to my class attributes
21:21 theorbtwo is constant is more general then is ro, but similar.
21:21 putter Including "In order to pass by read-only reference"...
21:21 theorbtwo Right.  Inside the class, it doesn't matter what accessors there are -- you are assigning directly to the var, not using an accessor... I think.
21:22 theorbtwo my $foo is constant = 42;
21:22 theorbtwo ($foo can never be assigned to again.)
21:22 theorbtwo has $.foo is ro = 42;
21:22 stevan yes
21:22 putter r5500 is ok.
21:22 theorbtwo $.foo can be assigned to again, but only by class methods.
21:22 stevan yup
21:22 stevan that is what makes sense to me
21:23 theorbtwo To me too.
21:23 stevan so what parts in the class declaration does the underlying scalar container need to know about
21:23 stevan the type?
21:23 stevan has Dog $.fido;
21:23 theorbtwo I think, BTW, the default isn't ro, but no access.
21:24 stevan theorbtwo: I thought it was ro
21:24 stevan oh well easily changed in the metamodel :)
21:24 theorbtwo I could well be wrong.
21:24 stevan has Dog $.fido handles "wag";
21:24 theorbtwo I think everything but a few blacklisted things get passed on.
21:24 stevan the "handles" part should be handled by the class not the container
21:25 stevan thats delegation
21:25 stevan all I can think of is passing on the Type
21:25 theorbtwo Huh?  Never noticed the existance of that... were is is it documented?
21:25 putter r5510 is broken, but differently.
21:25 stevan SA12
21:25 stevan look for "Delegation"
21:25 theorbtwo And typeish things -- is shaped, is newlined (or whatever it's called...)
21:26 stevan has $.bar is constant = 42;
21:26 mja has quit IRC ("[BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-1.1-final for the Amiga today!")
21:26 stevan that would be a different kind of container
21:26 stevan a ScalarConstant
21:26 stevan or somesuch
21:26 theorbtwo Da.
21:26 theorbtwo Or a Constant with a Scalar inside it.
21:26 stevan ok, I am not worrying about is shaped or any of that non-sense
21:27 theorbtwo Handle what you know how to handle, pass the rest on?
21:27 stevan ok, so my Scalar container will really just deal with type checking (if a type is added to it)
21:28 theorbtwo Sounds about right.
21:28 stevan theorbtwo: I am mostly trying to figure out *what* I need to handle... the how can come later
21:28 stevan cool
21:28 stevan danke theorbtwo :)
21:30 justatheory has quit IRC ()
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21:34 clkao 8http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/
21:34 clkao LOL
21:35 * Limbic_Region is just reading that now
21:41 clkao u   t/operators/eq.....................................pugs: *** Can't locate Test.pm in @*INC (@*INC contains: /Users/clkao/work/pugs/blib6/lib /System/Library/Perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level /System/Library/Perl6 /Library/Perl6/darwin-thread-multi-2level /Library/Perl6 .).
21:41 clkao wtf?
21:41 clkao thisw is a clean build on macosx
21:43 putter pugs is broken at the moment.  broke between r5505 (ok) and r5515 (not).
21:43 putter narrowing it down...
21:46 putter nothingmuch is working on a test log so we dont have to play this silly game.  nothingmuch++
21:46 nothingmuch putter: if you have a full TAP output or yml file of both, i can do sometthing
21:46 svnbot6 r5528, Stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel : the Scalar container only handles types now; made some minor modification to the way attributes are stored so that it handles tied scalars correctly; various other small changes, nothing big;
21:46 nothingmuch like, right now
21:47 stevan nothingmuch: hola
21:48 nothingmuch uh, whoe ees thiis naathingmuch you speek off?
21:48 putter nothingmuch: huh?
21:48 nothingmuch putter: i have a working diffing TTH
21:48 nothingmuch if you have the data to shove in it I can graph it for you
21:49 putter Ah, no.  Nifty thing, and I look forward to using it.   But at the moment,
21:49 nothingmuch what I didn't get around to is rounding corners
21:50 putter what I'd like is a file of lines like  'r5500  - 26 test cases: 26 ok, 1 failed, 2 todo, 2 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded' so I dont have to search through revision space.
21:50 nothingmuch oh, that' easy
21:50 putter :)
21:50 nothingmuch generate Test::TAP::Models somehow (call analyze_lines?)
21:50 nothingmuch then simply print each ones ->summary
21:51 putter r5505 ok, r5509 and r5510 broken differently, r5515 ok.  proceeding...
21:51 putter err, no.  r5515 br0ken.
21:52 putter Err, no again.  r5509 ok.  r5510 broken differently. r5515 broken.
21:53 Limbic_Region has quit IRC (""it will all be better in the morning"")
21:53 putter :)
21:53 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
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22:00 ToniEisner has joined #perl6
22:00 putter rafl_: ping?
22:01 nothingmuch http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/25550 <-- is he asking for ltu?
22:02 justatheory has joined #perl6
22:02 stevan nothingmuch: he asked for it over on LtU too
22:08 nothingmuch hah
22:09 nothingmuch so he really wants LtU in chrome ;-)
22:09 * nothingmuch should read more ltu
22:09 nothingmuch there, rss feed
22:09 putter ok, r5509 was working.  r5510 wasnt.  r5511 is irrelevant.  r5512 also broken.  r5513 has the current form of brokenness.
22:09 putter rafl_: ping?
22:10 putter rafl: ping?
22:11 alinbsp_ has quit IRC ()
22:12 Enveigler_ has joined #perl6
22:16 putter Ok, to sum up the State of the Build: r551{0,2,3} broke make test.  It's still broken.  Around the same time make install smashed Ovid http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/25660 "Vicious Pugs :(".
22:16 putter They may or may not be connected, but...
22:17 putter Someone needs to go through r551{0,2,3} and fix or revert.
22:17 putter I'll do it when I get back from dinner if someone hasn't beaten me too it.
22:18 wilx has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds)
22:19 putter Unfortunate.
22:19 putter &
22:31 cdpruden has joined #perl6
22:42 mugwump 5510 added Perl6::MakeMaker (see http://lists.utsl.gen.nz/pipermail/pugs-commits/2005-July/002842.html)
22:42 mugwump that might have been a rename
22:43 mugwump http://lists.utsl.gen.nz/pipermail/pugs-commits/2005-July/002844.html is probably the culprit
22:45 * pjcj catches up on today's p6l excitement
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22:57 clkao pjcj: hey, i thought you are busy on work or fixing devel::cover
23:00 pjcj Unfortunately, I am at work, yes.
23:00 dudley has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:00 pjcj but I was just waiting for a db to install
23:03 eric256 has left
23:14 wolverian http://chronoa.dy.fi/~wolverian/nuclear.p6 # does this look sane? particularly, does role inheritance work like that?
23:15 mja has joined #perl6
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23:33 stevan nothingmuch: ping
23:37 Maddingue has joined #perl6
23:41 Darren_Duncan has left
23:57 nothingmuch stevan: sorry
23:57 nothingmuch svk merge got stuck because i forgot to quit filemerge
23:59 nothingmuch it's sooo slooow

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