Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:00 geoffb :-)
00:00 nothingmuch the universe tends to threaten to do that when you're working with haskell, and are starting to reimplement your brain in it
00:00 geoffb nodnod
00:01 * nothingmuch goes to take a shower, in the hopes that the windows build will actually get somewhere
00:02 nothingmuch it keeps hanging and I don't like babysitting
00:03 geoffb :-/
00:03 nothingmuch yeah, some stupid tool
00:03 nothingmuch it does a reset, and waits for the daemon to restart
00:03 nothingmuch the daeamon finishes restarting
00:03 nothingmuch but the client keeps on hanging
00:03 nothingmuch reproducably, on some tests, but not others, which is odd
00:03 nothingmuch but nevermind
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00:16 nothingmuch http://www.thebestpageinthe​universe.net/c.cgi?u=banish
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00:29 geoffb nothingmuch: ah, see now *that* was a nice break from monad theory
00:34 wolverian hmm, on what level would one write a generic syntax filter that doesn't change the semantic meaning? such as changing 'foo if bar' to 'if bar { foo }'?
00:34 svnbot6 r5800, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5 version)
00:34 svnbot6 r5800, Stevan++ | * Perl6::Class is now a subclass of Perl6::Instance (code consolidation)
00:34 svnbot6 r5800, Stevan++ | * much code moved to Perl6::Class::Util::*
00:34 svnbot6 r5800, Stevan++ | * misc. code cleanup here and there...
00:34 wolverian AST or grammar or...?
00:38 mugwump that would have to take the non-optimised AST and write it out again, I guess
00:39 ezra_ either way, it needs to be acceptable to the grammar, right?
00:40 mugwump you'd hope it didn't produce broken code, yes
00:40 ezra_ i mean both syntactic forms have to actually parse, before you get an AST to transform.
00:41 mugwump you might be able to get away with simply mutating the AST and rely on the regular AST dumper to do that for you
00:41 mugwump ezra_: to do that sort of thing, you need to start with an AST.  You can't just mutate the source text.
00:41 ezra_ but you have to right out two productions to allow both form, yes?
00:42 ezra_ S -> X if Y       and       S -> if Y { X }
00:43 mugwump The AST would have to know which was used to be able to roundtrip safely from source code to AST and back
00:43 ezra_ s/right/write/
00:44 ezra_ What's the AST dumper used for?
00:44 * ezra_ is ignorant of most of perl6
00:45 mugwump The AST dumper is used to take a ParseTree and write it out again.  It currently only supports debugging output of these trees.
00:45 wolverian mugwump, hm, right. that's what I was thinking.
00:45 ezra_ (ah)
00:46 wolverian I'm thinking of every perl coder having his set of filters as a standard preprocessing phase in his favourite editor
00:46 wolverian so that everyone codes in his version of perl.
00:46 wolverian (this is strictly a subset of the standard grammar. I'm not interested in grammar changes.)
00:48 mugwump Nice idea; I think a more achievable first goal would be to simply get a refactoring editor like eclipse to be able to use pugs itself to drive the highlighting...
00:49 mugwump then that sort of thing could be layered atop it
00:49 wolverian hmm. I'd like a more general refactoring layer so that any editor can use it, but maybe I'm building it too big
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01:22 Khisanth wolverian: everyone coding in their own version of Perl sounds like a nightmare
01:22 wolverian Khisanth, I'm not sure. as long as it can be machine translated.
01:22 wolverian (and I did say no grammar changes :)
01:23 Khisanth maybe every "unit" coding in their own version of Perl
01:24 Khisanth but then that would still present issues if you hire someone new
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01:24 wolverian I'm not sure if there's an issue as long as a file loaded by anyone is guaranteed to be presented in their way
01:25 wolverian (remember, this is about automatic AST changes under one grammar, nothing fancier)
01:26 Khisanth slightly less nightmarish but still a nightmare :)
01:26 wolverian as long as the filter hides the nightmare from you ... :)
01:26 Khisanth since it would imply something like "I'm sorry but your editor is not powerful enough to handle Perl" might occur :)
01:27 geoffb ENOTEMACS
01:27 Khisanth which reminds me of the end of Batman Begins
01:27 geoffb Or, I suppose, ENOTVIM, for the other half
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01:29 wolverian Khisanth, true enough. :) then there would have to be an extra filter between the code and the filter, which would probably work in a team setting.
01:29 wolverian (or anywhere where you can automatically force people to use that.)
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01:34 putter Khisanth: nightmare?  to be able to read perl in a standard form?  think rich style checkers.  think having a "default" perl syntax/style or two.  think reading CPAN modules in clear code, rather than everyone's carelessly crafted personal dialect.  i'm sooooo looking forward to it.
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01:37 putter Re my previously mentioned "method call which doesnt return to caller, but rather to further up the call stack", it turns out $.foo ~= "$nosuchvariable"; is (non-minimally?) sufficient to cause the jump.   where $nosuchvariable does exist elsewhere, but should not be in scope.
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01:37 putter weeeeeeeee.
01:39 putter while AST modifying macros are nice, as are modifiable parser grammars, if someone wanted to do a simple p6 Filter::Simple, I'd use it immediately....
01:39 wolverian ew. :)
01:43 putter one line of Filter::Simple gets adverbs on rx working...
01:44 wolverian I just want Seaside on Perl6 ... (continuations for web!)
01:44 putter oh, that's cute.  when I fixed the aforementioned $nosuchvariable, I did it by changing the sub argument name, and missed one case of the old name.  no warning, just a no local exit.  cute.
01:45 wolverian heh.
01:46 putter It will be interesting to see how continuations on p6 shake out.  I can't imagine them not being exposed on platforms which support them.  But many interesting targets dont...
01:47 wolverian wow, Monad.ContT is blowing my mind.
01:48 putter ;)
01:48 wolverian this looks immensely neat and powerful and yet I have no idea whatsoever what it does exactly
01:49 wolverian (I'm still in the 'trying to get the tuits to learn Haskell beyond the number guessing game' stage)
01:50 * putter putter still isnt there yet...
01:50 wolverian putter putter? :)
01:50 putter ;)
01:54 putter I get to watch my text, and see how my brain works... "subvocalize 'putter', with continuation for rest of line; activate '/me' typing behavior, setting often overlooked 'Ive typed /me flag'; pop back to subvocalize; fail to consult flag, type 'putter'".  what fun. :/
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01:55 putter actually, its more of a stack shift which often gets subsequently overwritten, but whatever.
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02:01 putter re seaside, some common-lisp folks were arguing (perhaps unsurprisingly) that full continuations don't buy that much versus escape continuations.  has anyone written a insightful "foo is why you want your web infrastructure to have full continuations"?
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02:06 mugwump putter, because escape continuations are a subset of full continuations.
02:08 putter yes.  the question is, has anyone clearly stated what extra you get from having full continuations, in a web infrastructure context (seaside vs whatever).
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02:12 mugwump this is a pointed question; for the purpose of serialising state for use in an application server, escape continuations are all you need
02:12 mugwump AIUI of course.  But I only recently learned of continuations
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02:18 cwest seen autrijus
02:18 jabbot cwest: autrijus was seen 3 days 6 hours 37 minutes 6 seconds ago
02:18 cwest yow
02:20 dudley that seems to be a common sentiment :)
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02:21 dudley He did post to p6c today, so he's not dead, at least.
02:25 mugwump someone doesn't irc for 3 days and people assume they're dead?  COME ON PEOPLE!  :-)
02:25 geoffb mugwump, this is autrijus we're talking about.  Last time it happened he was falling over from extreme jetlag and lack of sleep.
02:25 geoffb And even then I don't think he was offline for more than 2 days at a time.  :-)
02:30 putter and someone from his $work came by here looking for him...
02:33 jdv79 doesn't he stop working on pugs fulltime soon?
02:33 dudley I assumed he had already, and that's why he hadn't been around
02:34 geoffb I'm thinking so.
02:34 geoffb I'm also guessing his lucky employer gets the same kind of single-minded work ethic that he has been devoting to pugs . . . .
02:35 stevan last comment autrijus made (that I saw anyway) was that he was busy with $work and playing the Sims
02:35 stevan my assumption is he is taking a well deserved break from Pugs reality in Sims reality
02:36 jdv79 how are things in Metaland?
02:36 stevan jdv79: very cyclical
02:37 geoffb Harrorth chapter 6 down, wheee . . .
02:37 jdv79 are roles real now?
02:38 stevan jdv79: in the p5 version they are pretty close
02:38 stevan I have been avoiding things like role attributes and being about to do "is" within a role
02:38 stevan those things tend to really complicate things
02:40 stevan things like autogenerated accessors for attributes get sticky when you combine it with the method conflict rules
02:41 QtPlatypus Is there a BNF for PIL, or even better a set of Perl6 rules for parsing it?
02:42 geoffb Isn't there a PIL-as-YAML target?
02:42 stevan QtPlatypus: the Haskell code for PIL is pretty close to BNF (kind of)
02:44 QtPlatypus stevan: Thanks.
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02:56 putter QtPlatypus: iblech/PIL2JS is the PIL-parsing forcing factor.  last time I checked, it's still a p5 based parser.  plan is for pugs to output a yaml dump of PIL, and likely other forms too.  but I don't think that's happened yet?
02:57 * QtPlatypus nods to putter.
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03:25 putter does anyone here understand how Parser.hs etal handle quoting?  I've a puzzle...
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03:44 putter are we in any kind of preflight? (it being monday...)
03:51 mugwump last commit from autrijus was more than 5 days ago, so no :)
03:52 mugwump but gaal, luqui, stevan, and iblech seem busy as ever
03:54 Khisanth putter: adverbs on rx? rx:ims /.../ :blah; ?
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04:03 QtPlatypus ?evan rule block { \{ .* \} };'{abc}' ~~ /<block>/;
04:03 QtPlatypus ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} };'{abc}' ~~ /<block>/;
04:03 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting "\\", "$!", "$/", "$" or "'"
04:04 QtPlatypus ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} };
04:04 evalbot6 undef
04:04 mugwump ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} }
04:04 evalbot6 undef
04:05 QtPlatypus ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} };/<block>/ ~~ "a";
04:05 evalbot6 bool::false
04:05 QtPlatypus ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} };/<block>/ ~~ '{a}';
04:05 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting "\\", "$!", "$/", "$" or "'"
04:06 QtPlatypus ?eval rule block { \{ .* \} };/<block>/ ~~ q/{a}/;
04:06 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "/" expecting ";", statements or end of input
04:06 QtPlatypus Weard
04:06 Khisanth hmm
04:07 Khisanth try something from A5?
04:14 Khisanth hey!
04:15 Khisanth hmm
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04:39 putter Khisanth: yes.  aka modifiers.
04:40 putter QtPlatypus: re \}, you might try <'}'>.  though a just-applied patch may have fixed this issue too.
04:45 QtPlatypus putter: No good.
04:45 svnbot6 r5801, putter++ | In Parser.hs, created a new quoting level QB_Minimal between QB_No and QB_Single.  Unlike No, it recognizes backslashed escapes of backslash and qfProtectedChar.  Unlike Single, it doesn't reduce them (ie, to a backslash or to the qfProtectedChar).  This appears to be what one wants for regexp literals.  Previously, a parsed  bs bs sp  and  bs sp  were indistinguishable.  The correct handling of odd quotes, eg  rx?...\?...? , is less clear,
04:45 QtPlatypus I'll try upgrading.
04:48 putter :(
04:49 putter Actually, r5801 doesn't help either. :(
04:56 QtPlatypus r5801 isn't installing.
04:57 putter !!
04:57 putter details?
04:58 QtPlatypus Syntax error in inc/PugsBuild/Config.pm
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04:59 QtPlatypus Ok I see what's happened, false alarm.
04:59 putter whew. ;)
05:01 QtPlatypus This is much better.
05:11 putter re rule block { \{ .* \} };/<block>/ ~~ '{a}'; there seem to be a couple of issues.  one a parser issue (unexpected end of input - its not an artifact of the read-eval loop).  <'}'> solves that.  second, ~~ is not currently commutative with rx'es.  '{a}' ~~ /<block>/ fixes that.  last, pge is choking.  which isnt entirely suprising even if you have a current copy of the parrot leo-ctx5 branch.
05:11 putter sigh.
05:13 putter ah, you need <'}'> to keep pugs happy, but pge doesnt understand <'...'> yet.
05:13 putter pge is happy doing \{ .* \}
05:14 putter (or didnt a few days ago)
05:18 putter ?eval rule block { \{ .* <[}]> } '{a}' ~~ /<block>/
05:18 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
05:18 putter erp?!?
05:19 putter works in ./pugs...
05:20 putter perhaps evalbot has an old parrot?
05:20 putter (ie, isnt using the leo-ctx5 branch... sigh)
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05:22 * QtPlatypus is upgrading both his pugs and his parrot.
05:23 putter the recommended parrot for pge is not the usual trunk/ but rather leo-ctx5/ .  fyi.
05:23 QtPlatypus Damn.
05:23 putter though the latter doesnt always compile. :(
05:25 putter "perl6 development - a microcosm of software engineering.  Ie, a maze of twisty little passages.  If only our tools worked, we could make tools that worked, but..."
05:27 QtPlatypus ãhttp://svn.perl.org/parrot/leo-ctx5 or somewhere else?
05:28 QtPlatypus (Ignore the nonsence)
05:29 putter Explaining the current state of things to someone a decade hence may be like explaining life a century+ ago.  "I dont understand why X was so hard.  You just wash your hands.  -No running water - go to stream/neighborhood pump.  Ok, so I get a bucket of water and wash my hands.  -No soap.  Why not?  Not invented/available yet.  Damn, ok, you..."
05:29 putter checking...
05:30 putter it's under branches/leo-ctx5/
05:30 putter perhaps http://svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/leo-ctx5/ ?
05:34 putter and it seems to currently be broken.
05:34 putter MANIFEST problem
05:34 gaal oh no! I got bitten by ghc's "strange object" problem. what do i do?
05:34 gaal (morning!)
05:35 putter good morning!  Dont let it get away! :)
05:36 gaal what, strange objects are precious? :)
05:36 putter QtPlatypus: r8656 worked, but thats getting a bit long in the tooth.
05:36 putter what platform and version of ghc are you running?
05:36 putter (some strange objects are well known, and thus less precious :)
05:37 gaal win32, ghc-6.5 snapshot of  few months back
05:37 putter cpu?
05:37 gaal update_fwd: unknown/strange object  35176
05:37 gaal intel p4 3ghz prescott ht
05:38 putter so 32bit.  hmm...
05:38 gaal y
05:38 gaal didn't happen last week
05:38 gaal ...and this is on the r before your checkins
05:39 gaal so it doesn't look like your fault ;-)
05:39 gaal wow, nice quote on a.w.a.d. today
05:39 gaal A root is a flower that disdains fame. -Kahlil Gibran
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05:43 putter :)
05:45 putter Searching http://sourceforge.net/tracker/​?group_id=8032&amp;atid=108032  I dont see any  strange object  tickets which are not 64-bit related.  So the next questions are can you replicate it (less interesting if not), and is it still a problem (but it can be painful to try and find out).
05:46 putter err, "still a problem" in a more recent snapshot...
05:47 gaal fwiw, i'm making clean and trying again with a larget heap
05:48 putter my fuzzy impression is strange object is gc related, so larger heap will put off the problem.
05:49 putter yipes.  2am.  good night folks. &
05:49 gaal well, it did happen in the most memory intensive part, where i had already gotten ooms before on smaller heaps
05:49 gaal night :)
05:49 gaal (Run.hs w/precompiled Test.pm)
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06:30 svnbot6 r5802, chromatic++ | Minor typo fixes (error message and documentation).
06:30 svnbot6 r5803, chromatic++ | Added basic tests for method introspection (S12/Introspection).  Most fail.
06:30 svnbot6 r5804, chromatic++ | Make a few tests from t/35_Method_introspection.t pass.
06:57 stevan chromatic++ # someone else taking an interest in the metamodel :)
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5 version)
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ | * Major refactor of ::MetaClass (bootstrapping)
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ |     - more than 50% of ::MetaClass is now described as a ::MetaClass instance
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ |     - ::MetaClass internals restructured to match what Perl6::Object creates
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ | * Perl6::Instance removed (we didn't need it)
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ | * guts of Perl6::Instance moved back into Perl6::Class
06:57 svnbot6 r5805, Stevan++ |     - changes made in ::MetaModel to facilitate this change
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07:11 gaal newish smoke win32: http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/smoke_xp.html
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09:08 gaal ?eval :x<2>.perl
09:08 evalbot6 'undef'
09:08 gaal anyone know how to fix that?
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09:09 gaal ?eval (x => 2).perl
09:09 evalbot6 'undef'
09:09 gaal pairs are broken?
09:10 gaal ?eval :x<2>
09:10 evalbot6 ('x' => '2')
09:10 gaal ?eval (x=>2)
09:10 evalbot6 ('x' => 2)
09:10 gaal okay, so .perl on pairs is broken. :)
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09:14 nothingmuch perl 6 doesn't have the flop flop operators, right?
09:14 gaal doesn't it? they were nice
09:15 gaal bbiab&
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09:36 svnbot6 r5806, gaal++ | add some tests for :pair constructors inside <<>>-quotes
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09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ | * Fix pair binding: For functions expecting pairs as arguments,
09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ |   their Pair arguments should engate in positional binding,
09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ |   not named bindings phase.  Implemented with the hack of
09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ |   (Syn "=>") representing a pair as named argument, and the
09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ |   original (App (Var "&infix:=>")) now means positional during
09:42 svnbot6 r5807, autrijus++ |   the binding phase.
09:42 svnbot6 r5808, autrijus++ | * 6.2.9's Main.hs poem is French.
09:42 svnbot6 r5809, autrijus++ | * add a small test, due to gaal, that tests Pair object's
09:42 svnbot6 r5809, autrijus++ |   canonical representation (.perl).
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09:47 nothingmuch the problem with flipflop is that it's not lexical enough
09:48 nothingmuch i guess you can implement it
09:48 nothingmuch my &infix:<..> = make_me_a_flip_flop();
09:48 nothingmuch and that way you have control
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09:51 nothingmuch sub make_me_a_flip_flop { :FlipState = enum <Before During After> ($left is delayed, $right is delayed) { state FlipState $x = Before; given $x { when Before { if ?$left { $x = During; return True } else { return False } }; when During { if ?$right { $x = After; return False } else { return True }; default { return False } } } }
09:52 nothingmuch oh, it really returns 'multi sub returns Bool'
09:52 nothingmuch so that it's not ambigouous with the range operator
09:53 gaal funny you should mention that, i was wanting to implement enum
09:54 gaal but the tests all use <<:Pair<initial_value>>> syntax, hence the detour
09:54 nothingmuch i was guessing
09:54 nothingmuch i forgot how it creates types
09:54 gaal though s12 mentions some advances stuff there about how it's a role and stuff
09:54 gaal yeah
09:55 gaal i don't know how to do that
09:55 gaal having it return a hash is easy :)
09:55 nothingmuch heh
09:55 nothingmuch one sec, i'll have a look
09:55 gaal i'm dehydrated, darn
09:56 * gaal goes find something to drink
09:56 nothingmuch enum returns a list of pairs in any context
09:56 nothingmuch but 'my enum day <Sun Mon Tue ...>' is a role
09:56 nothingmuch it really creates a class
09:56 nothingmuch and I assume that each enumeration is a role
09:57 nothingmuch such that Tue is an instance of day that does Tue
09:57 nothingmuch or something
09:57 nothingmuch since you have "Today" but Tue;
09:57 nothingmuch or "Today" but day::Tue;
09:58 nothingmuch it's composing a property at runtime
09:58 gaal can we do that already?
09:58 nothingmuch i don't think so
09:58 gaal oh :(
09:58 gaal well, enum doesn't have tests for that stuff yet anyway
09:58 nothingmuch either way, anonymous and named are very different
09:58 nothingmuch you should have a crack at anonymous
09:58 gaal y
09:59 nothingmuch given tuits today I may be tempted to test enum
09:59 nothingmuch i like it
09:59 nothingmuch it reminds me of haskell's data
09:59 nothingmuch enum Bool <<True False>>
09:59 gaal yes, i saw how you used it in the flipflop
09:59 gaal "of bit"
09:59 nothingmuch now all we need is for the enumeration to allow using higher order functions
09:59 nothingmuch right
09:59 nothingmuch gaal++
09:59 gaal hofs? where?
09:59 nothingmuch i think FlipFlop.pm is nice
10:00 gaal i think HOP is nice. :)
10:00 nothingmuch enum Maybe <<Nothing Maybe($value)>>>
10:00 nothingmuch or some such ;-)
10:00 nothingmuch i haven't seen it yet
10:00 gaal lol
10:00 nothingmuch ofcourse, Maybe would return an opaque
10:00 gaal you'll be wanting mzero soon
10:00 gaal and mplus and stuff
10:01 nothingmuch multi sub Just ($x) returns Maybe { Maybe.new has $x } # whatever, we can never know how it's implemented
10:01 nothingmuch multi sub Just (Maybe $x) { @$x }; # pattern matching
10:01 nothingmuch =D
10:02 nothingmuch i think I'm not being sane
10:03 nothingmuch enum Maybe does Monad <<Nothing Maybe($x)>>
10:03 gaal nothingmuch, how about you work on parsing :pairs in <<>>?
10:03 gaal since you're not sane
10:03 nothingmuch i think i have a better idea:
10:03 nothingmuch pairs are parsed in <<>> regardless
10:03 nothingmuch they always return a pair
10:03 nothingmuch so we don't special case it
10:03 gaal er
10:03 gaal yes,
10:03 nothingmuch then it should be easy, but I can't do it now
10:03 gaal but they aren't parsed now
10:03 gaal ah
10:03 gaal ok
10:03 nothingmuch i'm on a mental break from work, the 5 minutes after lunch
10:03 nothingmuch i still have to kick out that blasted build
10:04 nothingmuch it's failing due to system configuration problems
10:04 nothingmuch and I need to go through the logs and based on the type of errors decide whether the fail is just chaffe or really a fail
10:04 gaal i see you have enough fun. :)
10:04 nothingmuch yup
10:04 nothingmuch although my project proposal thing seems to be headed in the right direction
10:05 nothingmuch i think i will be doing a lot of heavy perl soon
10:05 bloves has left
10:05 gaal beh, pugscode's rss feed dosen't escape html
10:05 gaal or else lj's aggregator doesn't
10:06 gaal so every time somenone (me this time) puts a < in a commit comment, it gets mangled.
10:06 nothingmuch which commit message?
10:06 nothingmuch oh
10:06 gaal 5806
10:06 nothingmuch i see it properly in safari
10:06 nothingmuch but it maybe a quirks mode fix
10:06 gaal i don't know who's wrong though
10:07 gaal maybe it isn't even specced? this is rss we're talking about :-(
10:07 gaal (actually: it probably is specced. differently across versions)
10:07 nothingmuch curl shows me: inside &lt;&lt;>>-quotes
10:08 gaal bbiab &
10:08 Darren_Duncan has left
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10:18 nothingmuch autrijus: ping
10:18 Aankhen`` nothingmuch: That ought to be okay, shouldn't it?
10:18 nothingmuch Aankhen``: yes, it looks like it's a livejournal problem
10:18 nothingmuch it probably unescapes, and then does not reescape
10:19 * Aankhen`` casually shakes a fist at LJ.
10:19 nothingmuch escaping is such a bitch of a problem
10:19 nothingmuch i hate it.
10:19 nothingmuch that and encoding conversion
10:19 nothingmuch no app that is not either:
10:19 nothingmuch UI
10:19 nothingmuch something that extracts stuff out of a UI
10:19 nothingmuch should care about either
10:19 nothingmuch e.g., what goes in must come out
10:20 nothingmuch that way you make your text editor write utf8
10:20 nothingmuch apache just says what it is
10:20 nothingmuch the rss feed gets the file, and pumps it verbatim
10:20 Aankhen`` I do believe encoding conversion is a much greater headache than escaping. :-)
10:20 nothingmuch livejournal gets a structure with verbatim crap in
10:20 nothingmuch nothing is unescaped
10:20 nothingmuch this is just sent streight to the browser
10:20 nothingmuch the content type is copied from apache
10:21 nothingmuch too many applications nowadays try to be smart about this stuff
10:21 nothingmuch what I like about OSX is that they made:
10:21 nothingmuch the string library
10:21 nothingmuch the file handle object
10:21 nothingmuch and most builtin dialogs and stuff (text boxes, etc)
10:21 nothingmuch smart enough to handle this stuff well
10:21 nothingmuch so that authors should never feel a need to know better than the user
10:22 nothingmuch (and usually they don't)
10:22 Aankhen`` Uh huh.
10:22 nothingmuch it's so much fun to see apps on OSX support hebrew out of the box
10:22 Aankhen`` Heh.
10:22 nothingmuch this is something that never happenned before
10:22 nothingmuch and they support hebrew because the authors didn't do anything special =)
10:22 Aankhen`` Kewl.
10:23 Aankhen`` Right, I'm gonna go play some more games.
10:23 Aankhen`` Late.r
10:23 Aankhen`` Later.
10:23 nothingmuch ciao
10:24 * nothingmuch needs email, but box at home lost connection... again
10:24 nothingmuch this is the 2nd time in 3 days
10:24 nothingmuch it's really frustrating
10:24 nothingmuch if only i actually had the time and will to switch ISPs again
10:29 vcv- has joined #perl6
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10:31 * nothingmuch has a weird ideae:
10:31 nothingmuch MMD dispatch errors are not fatal in a when { }
10:31 nothingmuch the errors are delayed
10:31 nothingmuch and fatalized if the given block exited with no choice
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11:05 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "the maybe monad in perl 6 with nothingmuch's drunken enums" (48 lines, 1.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/11996
11:07 nothingmuch damnit, this is bullshit
11:08 nothingmuch "Paste unacceptable: flood rate exceeded. Next paste allowed in 7339 seconds."
11:08 nothingmuch just a second ago I had a "next paste allowed in 10 seconds"
11:08 nothingmuch which is something i never got
11:21 gaal try another pastebot, nm
11:24 gaal why did the Main.hs poem change language?
11:30 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
11:52 * pdcawley_ wonders if everyone else finds themselves yawning uncontrolledly whenever Thomas Sandlaß posts anything...
11:59 Aankhen`` pdcawley_: Of course not! It's very fascinating to see what people can do to English and get away with. :-D
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12:05 nothingmuch IA64 seems like a very yummy platform
12:11 masak has joined #perl6
12:14 * pdcawley_ giggles at Aankhen.
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12:22 svnbot6 r5810, Aankhen++ | * added variant of &HTTP::Message::BUILD to handle no arguments.
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12:42 svnbot6 r5811, Aankhen++ | * added skeleton for HTTP::Request::CGI.
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12:58 nothingmuch if I ever own a company my QA department will be writing tests in haskellD
12:58 nothingmuch there's nothing more useless than unmaintainable or unreadable or hard to write tests
12:58 meppl has joined #perl6
12:58 nothingmuch and the combination of the 3... eep
12:59 nothingmuch i'd rather the test support code (e.g., comparisons, reusable monad thingies, etc) will take 3* times as long
13:01 Aankhen`` HaskellD?
13:01 Aankhen`` Is that a typo?
13:03 Aankhen`` BBIAF.
13:05 nothingmuch yes, it is
13:09 QtPlatypus BTW is it know problem what you can get action at a distence bugs with the PGE?  Changing rules seems to cause unde related rules to fail.
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13:49 * masak thinks pugs development has slowed down recently
13:49 svnbot6 r5812, ingy++ | wahacha
13:49 masak i wish there was more i could do to help, but all i master so far is the tests :/
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14:01 stevan masak: sometimes it is the most calm before the storm :)
14:02 ingy masak: you could write modules :)
14:05 PerlJam putter++ (rules engine on pcre)
14:05 svnbot6 r5813, Stevan++ | Perl6::Code - use PadWalker to bind params, it is voodoo, but it is fun :)
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14:07 Khisanth hrm why a rules engine in p5? shouldn't ponie have easy access to PGE? :)
14:08 QtPlatypus The PGE is rather buggy and (at least for me) has a tendeny to explode if you look at it wrongly.
14:09 PerlJam QtPlatypus: How have you been looking at PGE?  ;-)
14:10 PerlJam Khisanth: multiple independent implementation of a rules engines suits me better than a single implementation.
14:10 Khisanth well yes and ponie is probably not completely converted either
14:10 Khisanth but I assume at some point PGE will stop doing that :)
14:10 PerlJam one would hope
14:10 Khisanth at least I hope so
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14:11 PerlJam QtPlatypus: Like pugs, writing a test that makes PGE blow up will help in getting it fixed.
14:12 Khisanth rules engine in p5 seems nice, rules in pcre seems a bit ...
14:12 QtPlatypus PerlJam: What is the polite way of writing a test that triggers a bus error?
14:13 PerlJam QtPlatypus: um ... I wouldn't be polite about a bus error.
14:13 PerlJam Khisanth: note that all the world uses PCRE while only perl5 uses p5  :)
14:14 * QtPlatypus ponders writing tests that get the bad responce that he gets.
14:14 Khisanth if pcre were already capable of doing everything rules is then there wouldn't have been a need for some of the changes!
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14:21 mugwump er, kill $$, "BUS"
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14:23 masak ingy: i've been thinking of writing modules. is there a Test::Base coming for perl6? :)
14:24 masak stevan: sounds like you know something i don't :)
14:24 nwc10 has left
14:25 masak ingy: btw, a thing i've been wanting to ask you for some time: if i want to convert kwid->html today, what is the best way?
14:26 Qiang has joined #perl6
14:26 Khisanth isn't there already a kwid converter?
14:28 stevan masak: I see nothing, I know nothing
14:30 masak :)
14:30 masak Khisanth: where? link?
14:31 Khisanth hmm thought I saw it in the tree before
14:33 QtPlatypus Is there any way to the :D in code?  (As as far as I can tell the only way to do that is to pipe out to pugs and then parse the PIL output).
14:34 Khisanth "the :D"?
14:34 QtPlatypus In the RPEL if you type ":D foo;" it dumps PIL at you.
14:35 QtPlatypus Actually it doesn't it dumps a parse tree.
14:35 QtPlatypus Seems there is nothing to a pil dump from with pugs.
14:36 Khisanth one of the B modules perhaps?
14:38 QtPlatypus Perhaps.
14:39 Khisanth all the -B stuff seems to be built in though
14:40 * QtPlatypus nods "Yes"
14:42 * QtPlatypus finds Compile.hs, which is where the PIL is generated apperently.
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16:07 autrijus greetings lambdacamels
16:07 Khisanth hello :)
16:07 autrijus :)
16:10 obra autrijus-san: well-rested?
16:10 autrijus obra: not quite, still recovering from TaPL :)
16:11 autrijus 3 chapters left
16:11 obra oh wow :)
16:11 autrijus this reread is really much better than the last time
16:11 obra nod
16:11 autrijus I noted with mixed emotions that in many many places, the TaPL textbook elides some combination of features
16:11 autrijus saying it's not used in practice, or too complex to analyze, or intractable enough to not realizable
16:12 autrijus and yet p6 is doing all of them!
16:12 autrijus ;)
16:12 PerlJam autrijus: so ... when will you start your TaPL rewrite? ;)
16:14 autrijus PerlJam: I think I'll start with simple papers that tackles the issues :)
16:14 broquaint TaPL?
16:15 Khisanth Types and ... something :)
16:15 Khisanth see READTHEM
16:16 autrijus Programming Languages.
16:16 broquaint Types and Pugs Leetness.
16:16 Khisanth by Autrijus Tang? :)
16:16 broquaint Did you absorb TaPL directly into your brain, autrijus, Matrix-stylee?
16:17 autrijus broquaint: kind of. I'm also learning OCaml :)
16:17 PerlJam autrijus: maybe you could encourage Pierce to take a sabbatical from upenn and visit with you and others
16:18 broquaint Watch out for brain teh splode.
16:18 autrijus PerlJam: actually I'm planning to do some Erdősing this winter
16:19 autrijus the wandering part, not the numbering part :)
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16:22 PerlJam autrijus: well then you can wander over to upenn :)
16:23 autrijus that's a possibility, but I'm trying to keep to .eu for now... we'll see :)
16:23 * autrijus ponders staying at leo's and repeat the hackathon
16:24 PerlJam oh!  do that if you can.  That sounds so much better ;)
16:25 PerlJam you're just rereading TaPL but not ATaPL?
16:26 jabbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:26 PerlJam er, ATTaPL
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16:27 autrijus I'd do that if I can find my copy :)
16:27 autrijus I suspect it's buried deep somewhere
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16:43 svnbot6 r5814, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: added documentation.
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17:17 masak autrijus: Erdősing sounds like a really good idea
17:17 Nattfodd has joined #perl6
17:17 masak i wish i had the chance to do something like that
17:17 autrijus thanks :) but that also means I need to spend more time on $job this and next month
17:18 autrijus lest my savings will run well into the negative range
17:18 cognominal has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:19 autrijus but I'm quite excited at the prospect of finding erdősees during ICFP and Euroscon
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17:32 autrijus oh wow. shapr++
17:32 autrijus http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/glasg​ow-haskell-users/2005-July/008781.html # Pugs's GADT-for-ordinary-datatype request made into a GHC feature
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17:34 Aankhen`` Excellent!  shapr++
17:34 Aankhen`` BTW, what's GADT? :-P
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17:38 autrijus Aankhen``: see docs/notes/recursive_polym​orphism_and_type_inference :)
17:38 Aankhen`` OK, thanks.
17:38 autrijus :)
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18:11 svnbot6 r5815, autrijus++ | * Global destruction -- DESTROYALL() on all active objects --
18:11 svnbot6 r5815, autrijus++ |   is now guaranteed upon program exit.
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18:16 geoffb WTH is 'Erdősing'?
18:17 svnbot6 r5816, fglock++ | * Recurrence.pm union/intersection check for closure identity;
18:17 svnbot6 r5816, fglock++ |   improved docs.
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18:22 autrijus geoffb: Paul Erdős is this crazy person who travelled from one mathematician's house to another
18:22 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
18:22 autrijus never staying for too long, and during the stay would work with the host on whatever problem the host is working on, and publish a paper together, then he moves on
18:22 geoffb Oh that is just cool as hell
18:23 geoffb (and welcome back, btw)
18:23 autrijus thanks :) it's nice to be alive
18:23 geoffb :-)
18:23 autrijus (and finally solved chromatic's one and only remaining T::Builder blocker)
18:23 geoffb And there was much rejoicing
18:24 autrijus :)
18:24 geoffb In your absence several of us having been boning up on haskell attempting to get to happy bug-fixing stage
18:24 autrijus nice.
18:24 geoffb . . . I, at least, am not yet there, but certainly getting closer
18:24 autrijus I'd be glad to walk you thru fixing your pet bug(s)
18:25 geoffb Once I finish harrorth, I'll rebuild pugs and let you know.  :-)
18:25 geoffb s/and/, retest, and/
18:26 autrijus nice :)
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18:27 geoffb ping nothingmuch
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18:33 autrijus hm. Erdős often asks the current collaborator about whom he should visit next.
18:33 autrijus aka linked list traversal
18:33 autrijus across social networks
18:33 geoffb Good idea.
18:33 autrijus indeed
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18:50 masak autrijus: I have two pet bugs right now
18:50 masak the first is a junction bug (t/junction/array_deref.t) which prevents me from tidying up examples/games/tic_tac_toe.p6
18:50 masak the second is a constructor initialized member shifting bug (t/pugsbugs/attribute_list.t) that puts wizard.p6 in its infinite loop
18:51 masak i get motivated by bugs in games
18:51 autrijus that's a wonderful motivation
18:53 autrijus aha. junctive dereferencing.
18:53 svnbot6 r5817, fglock++ | * Span.pm with coroutines (lazy iterator)
18:53 svnbot6 r5817, fglock++ |   "say $a while $a = $span.lazy"
18:53 szabgab ?eval 1 / "0"
18:53 evalbot6 Inf
18:54 geoffb ?eval 0 / 0
18:54 evalbot6 Error: Illegal division by zero
18:54 geoffb That should be NaN, shouldn't it?
18:54 szabgab Is this Inf thing a bug ?, (only when "0" string
18:54 geoffb ?eval 1 / 0
18:54 evalbot6 Error: Illegal division by zero
18:54 autrijus I wonder whether it should raise exceptions
18:54 szabgab ?eval 1 / "00"
18:54 autrijus p5 certainly did.
18:54 evalbot6 Inf
18:54 geoffb ?eval 0 / "0"
18:54 evalbot6 NaN
18:55 geoffb Ah
18:55 geoffb My recall is that 1 / 0 in Perl 6 should be Inf, 0 / 0 NaN . . . so as long as the denominator is a string, pugs appears to get it right,
18:55 geoffb But if the denom is an int, as szabgab shows, bug
18:55 autrijus if so, just kill line 69 in Prim/Numeric.hs
18:56 autrijus kill the err case
18:56 szabgab so what is the correct behavior ? the exceptin or the Inf ?
18:57 geoffb Inf / NaN is correct, I believe
18:57 autrijus if so, fix the tests in t/operators/arith.t.
18:58 nothingmuch hola
18:58 nothingmuch autrijus: i have two toys to show off
18:59 nothingmuch one is haskell esque data constructors
18:59 autrijus good. do it quickly because I'm about to doze off
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18:59 nothingmuch possibly made possible by a possible hack to enum
18:59 nothingmuch or a user defined enum which will work differently
18:59 autrijus ah. you extended enums into variant types.
18:59 szabgab hi nothingmuch, have not seen you in a while
18:59 nothingmuch not really
18:59 nothingmuch hola szabgab
18:59 nothingmuch what's cooking?
19:00 autrijus so what's another toy?
19:00 nothingmuch the other toy is a very cute definition of the flip flop operator in perl 6
19:00 nothingmuch well, really a flip flop generatorf
19:00 autrijus right, I read it in the backlog
19:00 nothingmuch as a module
19:01 nothingmuch didn't paste it though
19:01 autrijus cool!
19:01 nothingmuch pastebot thinks I'm a spammer
19:01 nothingmuch and we need 'my enum Classname'
19:01 nothingmuch do we have that?
19:01 geoffb nothingmuch, suggestions for harrorth: 1) for each chapter, include repository rev that matches text -- old chapters don't (of course) match head source code, and the datestamps on the kwid files are mostly bogus (identical); 2) have a kwid that just includes collected links to tutorials, other forth interpeters, and so on; 3) link an x86 asm tutorial (I happened to already know x86 asm, but many readers won't)
19:01 autrijus we have my class, so I don't see why not my enum
19:01 nothingmuch geoffb: regarding revs - I will get to it at the end
19:02 nothingmuch but good point
19:02 nothingmuch you mean other tutorials? they are mostly jotted in the journal
19:02 nothingmuch but i'll make an xref
19:02 geoffb yeah, just thought it would be helpful, not necessary or anything
19:02 nothingmuch good points, i'll try to implement them
19:02 nothingmuch but not enough time right now for much of that
19:02 geoffb nodnod
19:03 nothingmuch whttp://nothingmuch.wooblin​g.org/enum_data_types.txt
19:03 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/flipflop.txt
19:04 * nothingmuch will alias 'perl' to 'perl -MFlipFlop' when perl 6 comes out
19:04 nothingmuch and. inclue 'Main::&infix:<..> = FlipFlop::make_me_a_flipflop'
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19:06 autrijus but that will share a $state for all the '..'
19:06 autrijus in the same importer's scope
19:06 autrijus which is wrong
19:06 nothingmuch it's not compatible
19:06 nothingmuch but that's the best I could come up with
19:07 autrijus okay... I think I can't finish reading "Local type inference" and "Colored local type inference" today. pity, because I really need to read them to come up with coherent PIL typechecking :)
19:07 autrijus nothingmuch: you can key states over $?CALLER::POSITION.
19:07 nothingmuch linux confs eep!
19:07 ezra_ has joined #perl6
19:07 autrijus or even $?CALLER::RETURN_CONTINUATION
19:07 nothingmuch hmm
19:07 autrijus but I need to sleep :)
19:07 nothingmuch i think that's less reusable
19:07 autrijus I very much agree.
19:07 * autrijus waves... see you tomorrow &
19:07 nothingmuch you can wrap that over the current impl
19:07 nothingmuch but not the opposite
19:08 nothingmuch ciao
19:16 nothingmuch gaal: ping
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19:23 Steve_p Shoot!  I missed autrijus :-/
19:23 nothingmuch Steve_p: maybe someone else can help?
19:24 Steve_p No, Alias mentioned that autrijus had some of the biggest "edge case" modules for testing PPI.
19:25 Steve_p I'm testing some modules on ponie, and was just checking to see if he had any thoughts which might be the most mind-bending
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19:29 nothingmuch hmm
19:30 * nothingmuch must say that most of autrijus's code is pretty readable =)
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19:34 svnbot6 r5818, chromatic++ | Fixed destruction tests now that global destruction works.
19:34 svnbot6 r5818, chromatic++ | Bumped up version to 0.2.0 -- ready to use as a backend for other test modules.
19:45 geoffb Steve_p, PAR perhaps?
19:46 Steve_p I was thinking that PAR might be the one...
19:46 geoffb (Haven't looked at the PAR source myself, but it's doing some crazy edge-casey stuff)
19:47 geoffb PPI is allergic to source filters, right?
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19:48 Steve_p I think its gotten past the source filter problems, but I'm not sure.  I'll get in touch with Alias to see exactly what modules gave PPI the most fits.
19:48 geoffb Anything by ingy and much of Damian's stuff, I suspect
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19:51 Steve_p Yes, Kwiki and Smart::Comments are next on the list
19:51 nothingmuch Smart::Comments--, Devel::FIXME++
19:52 nothingmuch </shameless_plug_and_blasphemy>
19:52 geoffb wheee, more things interesting enough to look at and prevent productivity.
19:55 * nothingmuch goes to the shower, and then will read about arrows
19:57 ingy :p
19:58 nothingmuch ingy-san
19:58 nothingmuch whither Cryptiki?
19:58 * ingy sighs
19:59 * Steve_p watches IO::All explode on ponie :-/
20:00 Steve_p I'll have to check to see if it works on bleadperl
20:01 * Steve_p wonders how nothingmuch IRC's in the shower
20:01 nothingmuch Steve_p: I lie
20:01 Steve_p heh
20:01 nothingmuch i do it all the time too
20:02 nothingmuch i doubt anyone believes me when I say I leave
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20:02 nothingmuch when I start closing windows I usually waste another hour doing garbage collection
20:05 geoffb OK, nothingmuch, I'll give you Devel::FIXME++, but Smart::Comments is (as usual) pretty cool
20:06 * geoffb has written any number of progress/status modules, but as usual not as visually declarative.
20:06 nothingmuch yeah, i was not really serious.
20:06 nothingmuch i had this dream
20:06 geoffb I knew that :-)
20:06 nothingmuch that I would one day write a proper config file for it
20:07 nothingmuch that my fixme filter would be integrated with my VCS for the file in question
20:07 nothingmuch it would look at time stamps, and write permissions
20:07 nothingmuch the path of the file
20:07 nothingmuch and thus decide whether the fixme is important or not
20:07 nothingmuch i still have to get around to it
20:08 geoffb round tuits: the world's scarcest resource
20:08 nothingmuch yes, they are
20:08 nothingmuch i have one
20:09 nothingmuch i'm saving it for it's sentimental value though
20:09 geoffb heh
20:09 nothingmuch it's a @Larry joke
20:09 nothingmuch they have these round little discs
20:09 nothingmuch which have "TUIT" on one side
20:09 nothingmuch and "Programming Republic of Perl" with the onion logo on the other
20:09 geoffb very cool.
20:09 nothingmuch i'm not sure if you get one when you actually got around to something
20:09 nothingmuch or when you say you will
20:11 geoffb Oh, re: harrorth -- are the basic forth bootstrap words defined by the ANS spec, or otherwise so uniquely defined that they are uncopyrightable?
20:11 nothingmuch no, i'm learning and inventing as I go along
20:11 nothingmuch i found the spec very unreadable
20:11 nothingmuch so I didn't read it
20:12 nothingmuch whenever my forth guru mentions something cool
20:12 nothingmuch like mutual recursion
20:12 nothingmuch or does>
20:12 nothingmuch i make a mental note to learn how it's used
20:12 nothingmuch and then I make a guess at how it's done
20:12 penk has quit IRC ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
20:12 nothingmuch i'm usually right, but not because I rock
20:12 nothingmuch it's just that forth is so simple there is usually just one logical way
20:13 geoffb nodnod
20:14 nothingmuch eep, cat throwing up
20:14 geoffb How *do* you define two words so that they can mutually recurse (instead of the second definition dying from unrec. word?)
20:14 geoffb bleah
20:14 geoffb er, first definition dying, sigh
20:15 nothingmuch variable some_word
20:15 nothingmuch : other word some_word goto ; ( or somesuch)
20:15 nothingmuch basically, apply the BSR opcode to TOS
20:15 nothingmuch then define an anonymous word
20:16 nothingmuch using :noname
20:16 nothingmuch when you are done compiling you have an address on the stack
20:16 nothingmuch (this word may use the word 'other', ofcourse)
20:16 nothingmuch some_word !
20:16 nothingmuch there are also some more clever ways
20:16 geoffb nice . . . .
20:16 nothingmuch and, ofcourse, you could preallocate some area
20:17 nothingmuch and then copy the def of a word from one place in the heap to another
20:17 nothingmuch or be very very wicked and use low level dictionary editing words
20:17 nothingmuch if there are any in your forth
20:17 nothingmuch so that you basically create your own ':'
20:17 * geoffb is considering for the first time in ages picking up a CS book for a language other than Perl, C, or x86 asm
20:18 nothingmuch e.g. 'new_dict_entry foo 100 allot'
20:18 Maddingue has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:18 geoffb nodnod
20:18 nothingmuch : other ... foo ... ;
20:18 nothingmuch variable here_backup
20:18 nothingmuch here here_backup !
20:18 nothingmuch here_variable (presumably the pointer to the next free entry in the heap)
20:18 nothingmuch err, i mean
20:19 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:19 nothingmuch address_of_body_of_word foo here_variable !
20:19 nothingmuch state on
20:19 nothingmuch ... compile as you would after ':'
20:19 nothingmuch and then after ';' do 'here_backup @ here_variable !'
20:19 nothingmuch read p5orth source code
20:19 geoffb nodnod
20:19 nothingmuch it's a bit yucky
20:20 geoffb link?
20:20 nothingmuch because i usually wrote it while sleeping
20:20 nothingmuch harrorth repo under misc
20:20 gaal nothingmuch: phantom pong
20:20 geoffb k
20:20 nothingmuch gaal: szabgab wants you at August Penguin
20:20 nothingmuch or rather, both of us
20:20 nothingmuch pretend I was spoofing his mac address when I pinged you
20:20 nothingmuch geoffb: therein lie: a forth prelude
20:21 nothingmuch including the words ':' and ';', and the words to support these
20:21 nothingmuch some primitives written in perl 5
20:21 nothingmuch some words that are primitives but shouldn't be, written in perl 5, that I want to port to forth
20:21 gaal don't think i can make it. going on vacation soon and am very much tied up at $work till then
20:21 nothingmuch gaal: it's a thursday evening
20:21 svnbot6 r5819, szabgab++ |  r4302@gabor:  gabor | 2005-07-26 23:15:23 +0300
20:21 svnbot6 r5819, szabgab++ |  * examples/cookbook/01strings​/01-00introduction.expected
20:21 svnbot6 r5819, szabgab++ |  * examples/cookbook/test.pl
20:21 svnbot6 r5819, szabgab++ |    Add set of expected results to the first subchapter of the cookbook
20:21 svnbot6 r5819, szabgab++ |    and the script that will compare the original results with the current once
20:21 nothingmuch e.g., ~ 17:00, at the bofs
20:22 szabgab nm: actually it is all they long
20:22 nothingmuch szabgab: svk push --verbatim
20:22 szabgab not just evening
20:22 pasteling has quit IRC (Client Quit)
20:22 nothingmuch szabgab, gaal: at 17:30 the bofs are supposed to start
20:22 nothingmuch that's what I meant
20:22 szabgab ok, next time...
20:23 szabgab no, that time is incorrect
20:23 pasteling has joined #perl6
20:23 szabgab the whole thing will end by 17:30
20:23 nothingmuch oh, "in parallel"
20:23 nothingmuch so this is instead of the trivia stuff?
20:24 szabgab yes, I asked for two slots and waiting for the final approval and that it will appear on the site before I can announce
20:24 nothingmuch ah
20:24 szabgab yeah that is one of the slots I asked and the rsync is the other slot
20:24 nothingmuch talk slots for BOFs?
20:24 nothingmuch eep
20:24 szabgab parallel ;-(
20:25 nothingmuch yeah, that's what I meant
20:25 nothingmuch it's still aweful
20:25 szabgab that's how they are doing it. I don't get it but that's their "conference'
20:25 gaal nm: how well do mac apps do ms word docs with hebrew? for a non-technical user?
20:25 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:25 nothingmuch gaal: NeoOfficeJ is a native compilation of OpenOffice.org for OSX
20:25 nothingmuch it does very well
20:26 nothingmuch my time sheets are filled in excel worksheets
20:26 nothingmuch all our design docs are MS word
20:26 gaal is it less slow than oo on windows?
20:26 nothingmuch the order form I use to get my daily fix of veggies is msword too
20:26 gaal because that's slow on fast machines :(
20:26 nothingmuch it's pretty sulggy
20:26 nothingmuch to load
20:26 nothingmuch but using it wsas OK
20:26 nothingmuch i don't edit anything big though
20:26 nothingmuch i just open and scroll
20:27 nothingmuch .me
20:27 nothingmuch geoffb: i learned a bit about the IA64 platform today
20:27 nothingmuch very pretty
20:27 nothingmuch if you share my mindset, which I think you do, you should appreciate it
20:28 * gaal sleeps &
20:28 geoffb Intel's VLIW beastie?
20:28 nothingmuch geoffb: yep
20:28 geoffb Yeah, some cool stuff there.
20:28 nothingmuch well, i really meant that VLIW is cool
20:28 nothingmuch i just couldn't remember the correct acronym  on the fly
20:28 geoffb :-)
20:28 nothingmuch it should be very very very fun to compile forth to VLIW platforms
20:29 nothingmuch also, do you know of my evil plans for optimizing forth?
20:29 geoffb .oO( Hmmm, predicated IF ELSE THEN . . . )
20:29 geoffb No, do tell
20:33 dudley has quit IRC ()
20:33 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:33 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("I'm not as think as you confused I am! [Time wasted online: 10hrs 5mins 5secs]")
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20:48 svnbot6 r5820, szabgab++ | * examples/cookbook/01strings/
20:48 svnbot6 r5820, szabgab++ |   More expected versions of the cookbook files
20:48 svnbot6 r5821, fglock++ | * added "lazy()" iterator to Set::Infinite
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21:07 nothingmuch szabgab++ # test for cookbook is a very good idea
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21:36 svnbot6 r5822, fglock++ | * Set::Infinite - added mutators, and a bugfix
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22:25 sili is now known as php-sucks
22:28 geoffb Yayyyy . . . finally caught up with harrorth.
22:28 geoffb nothingmuch++ # Much fun, harrorth is.  Enjoy it, I do.
22:29 php-sucks is now known as sili
22:30 geoffb : pimp_harrorth you harrorth love if nothingmuch dup @ 1+ ! then ;
22:31 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:32 wolverian I should learn lojban.
22:32 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
22:33 geoffb ditto.  I've even got an open tab for it in FF, but I also have several dozen other open tabs.  Sigh.
22:34 geoffb & # mmmm, life . . . .
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