Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-27

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:21 dudley A Gentle Introduction to Haskell has a misleading title... but it makes much more sense after reading TCFP.
00:26 ezra_ TCFP?
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00:43 dudley Haskell: The Craft Of Functional Programming
00:43 ezra_ ah, thanks
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00:46 Khisanth YAHT is pretty nice .... if a bit sparse :)
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00:48 dudley Yeah, I would definitely recommend starting with one of those two. Or both of them.
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00:59 wolverian I can count in lojban :)
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01:07 mugwump mi kafka
01:07 mugwump mi kafka ganxo
01:09 wolverian your anal kafka? did I get that right? :)
01:09 wolverian er, no. you are kafka-anal?
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01:21 mugwump I tried to say "I fart"
01:21 mugwump the first meant "I expel a gas", not specifically from any orafice
01:21 wolverian hmm, the dictionary I consulted didn't know kafka
01:22 wolverian is it compound?
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01:30 mugwump kafke
01:30 mugwump so, it should have been, mi kafke zo'e ganxo
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01:31 mugwump (lit. I expel something from my anus)
01:33 wolverian right
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03:18 buu Is there any thoughts/documentation/etc for the new perl6 pod type thing?
03:30 mugwump buu: see the S26draft-mugwump.pod and let me know what you think
03:31 mugwump atm it's simply suffering from lack of feedback
03:31 mugwump There's the Perl 5 Perldoc module, of which a port to Perl 6 has begun, that's waiting on tuits
03:32 mugwump There's also the Kwid-Event-Parser and Pod-Event-Parser modules, which are semi-suitable for making into Perldoc::Parser classes
03:32 mugwump At the time it was also blocking because of some broken functionality that is probably not the case now.
03:33 buu Ok
03:33 mugwump And slow, slow pugs startup which is solved now with precompiled Prelude
03:33 buu Where might I find ye old .pod file?
03:33 mugwump in docs/ I think
03:33 * mugwump checks
03:33 buu er
03:33 mugwump docs/AES
03:34 buu Can I get that in the form of a URI?
03:34 mugwump that is a URI.  the base URI is file://where/you/checked/out/pugs/to ;)
03:34 buu Ah.
03:35 mugwump the Perl 6 Perldoc port is in ext/Perldoc
03:35 mugwump the Perl 5 version of Perldoc is at http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perldoc/
03:35 buu Where are the pugs svn servers hiding?
03:35 mugwump oh, not a committer yet?
03:35 buu haha, no.
03:35 mugwump http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs
03:36 buu Can I just check out from there?
03:36 mugwump sure
03:36 buu Excellento.
03:37 * buu tries
03:37 buu Sucess!
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03:42 buu Hrm. I'd like to register a complaint.
03:42 mugwump let me guess, it doesn't even parse POD yet?  :)
03:42 mugwump or something else?
03:42 buu Naw
03:42 buu My problem is, pod fucking sucks
03:43 buu I should note that this opinion is formed from trying to *parse* perl5's current collection of pod.
03:43 mugwump right, well the idea behind the new POD system is to allow pod dialects, like Kwid which is a wiki-style POD
03:43 buu For example, perlop
03:43 buu =item $/
03:43 buu =item $FOOBAR
03:43 buu Oh, those are the same variable?
03:44 buu My basic problem is that POD reminds me of HTML1 type things. It focuses way too much on the presentation.
03:44 Amnesiac shaddup
03:44 Amnesiac you don't know anything about HTML1
03:44 Amnesiac you were in diapers!
03:44 buu Amnesiac: Go back to mexico.
03:46 wolverian I think that's everyone's problem with POD, buu
03:46 wolverian at least I hope it is. :)
03:46 buu wolverian: Well, I haven't been particuraly active in development, but I haven't seen any indications of that.
03:48 wolverian then you should get active!
03:48 buu Of course the problem is, I can't think of anything that would be better at actually storing the meta data than xml.
03:49 mugwump buu: have a look at the Perl 5 Perldoc distribution; the basic test cases are all xml based
03:49 buu Ick =[
03:49 buu mugwump: Where is that again?
03:49 mugwump xml is great for documents
03:49 mugwump http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perldoc/
03:49 mugwump so long as no human is editing the file, of course
03:50 buu yeah that is the trick.
03:51 buu But I really just want an easy way to parse semantic meaning from a document with out having to do it by hand.
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03:52 mugwump yes, that would be nice.  so, what I've focused on so far is just basic infrastructure - how the structures are represented in memory (a DOM, if you like) and how they are transmitted about (a serial event API)
03:52 buu Stupid events.
03:52 wolverian I don't see much of a problem as long as the PODv2 we'll end up with defines semantic 'tags' instead of things like =over
03:53 buu Yeah, =method would be vastly preferable.
03:53 wolverian yes.
03:53 buu Or something. Anything but the current muck.
03:53 wolverian and hopefully the perldoc backend can extract signatures and such to automatically add metadata to the documentation
03:53 buu Eh, how?
03:54 wolverian buu, &Foo::method.signature
03:54 wolverian or so.
03:54 buu Er, oh.
03:54 buu Those kind of signatures.
03:54 wolverian yeah. :)
03:54 buu PPI !
03:55 mugwump this will be possible, with the obvious caveats
03:55 wolverian buu, PPI isn't necessary with perl6. :)
03:55 buu Well yeah, but I get the idea.
03:55 buu But of course, the pod back end will have to know where to insert these signatures
03:56 buu So we're back to =methods.
03:56 mugwump again, the operation of this stuff shouldn't be hardcoded.  it would probably be more like;
03:56 mugwump =use Methods
03:56 wolverian I was thinking of it outputting those when requested (pod2html, etc)
03:57 buu Er, what?
03:57 wolverian mugwump, I disagree. that is not semantic at all.
03:57 wolverian what is 'use'?
03:58 buu wolverian: It's a flag to the interpretering parser thingy.
03:58 buu At least I think that's the idea.
03:59 mugwump ok, if we want to keep PODv1 backwards compatibility it would be called =for Plugin::Methods or something
03:59 wolverian compatibility? why? perl6 isn't perl5 compatible.
03:59 buu Fuck compatability in the ass.
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04:05 mugwump enough people have different ideas on the level of backwards compatibility that it is worth allowing it.  Also, the design in S26draft-mugwump.pod leaves plenty of room for POD dialects to diverge
04:06 mugwump But if we get a POD dialect nice enough, it's possible that enough people will agree to make it standard that it will become so
04:06 mugwump at the worst you're looking at one extra line to pull in your favourite dialect
04:06 mugwump the idea is that these can all be read in a standard way by just accessing the $=DOC object (or @=DOC or %=DOC...)
04:09 mugwump please feel free to write test cases - in other words - your own POD dialect or POD trick - and place them in the Perldoc distribution in t/
04:10 mugwump perhaps there is an existing Perl 5 module that you want to see working in Perl 6 and you're curious how it would work
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04:22 buu I'm still pondering the design.
04:28 mugwump good, I'd be delighted to hear what you think, even if it consists only of expletives and personal pronouns
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04:37 luqui I UNDERSTAND MONADS.  HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
04:38 * mugwump gives luqui a bright, shiny medal
04:38 luqui it took me long enough...
04:43 mugwump from one Perlite to another, can it be summarised easily?
04:44 mugwump I know that they encapsulate IO in a Haskell program
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07:11 svnbot6 r5823, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: inherit from HTTP::Request.
07:22 luqui mugwump:  can they be summarized easily? ...
07:22 luqui let's see, they encapsulate a behavioral model
07:22 svnbot6 r5824, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Request::CGI:
07:22 svnbot6 r5824, Aankhen++ | * `use URI::Escape`
07:22 svnbot6 r5824, Aankhen++ | * added explicit invocant for &BUILD.
07:22 svnbot6 r5824, Aankhen++ | * added &:unpack_params.
07:23 wolverian that reminds me that I still have to rewrite URI. :/
07:23 luqui they essentially overload ; and =
07:24 luqui which means that you can implement backtracking
07:24 luqui and statefulness
07:25 luqui that's the best I can do
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07:41 svnbot6 r5825, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: added &:load_params.
08:09 szabgab open +>  and +< , should they become open :rw  and open :wr respectively ?
08:09 szabgab where can I read the most up to date spec ?
08:09 * QtPlatypus likes "+>" and "+<"
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08:11 szabgab and also there was a  +>> read and append
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08:27 svnbot6 r5826, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Request::CGI:
08:27 svnbot6 r5826, Aankhen++ | * fixed mistake in &BUILD.
08:27 svnbot6 r5826, Aankhen++ | * implemented &params().
08:27 svnbot6 r5826, Aankhen++ | * implemented all variants of &param().
08:27 svnbot6 r5827, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: implemented &delete_param and &delete_params.
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08:34 svnbot6 r5828, Aankhen++ | HTTP::Request::CGI:
08:34 svnbot6 r5828, Aankhen++ | * renamed &:unpack_params to &:parse_params.
08:34 svnbot6 r5828, Aankhen++ | * added &:parse_keywords, and appropriate handling in &:load_params.
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08:36 Aankhen`` ?eval multi sub foo () { "no args" }; &foo:<Str> := -> Str $bar { $bar.uc() }; foo("bar")
08:36 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
08:36 Aankhen`` ?eval multi sub foo () { "no args" }; &foo:(Str) := -> Str $bar { $bar.uc() }; foo("bar")
08:36 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
08:37 wolverian hmm, try ::=
08:37 Aankhen`` ?eval multi sub foo () { "no args" }; &foo:(Str) ::= -> Str $bar { $bar.uc() }; foo("bar")
08:37 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
08:37 Aankhen`` ?eval multi sub foo () { "no args" }; &foo:<Str> ::= -> Str $bar { $bar.uc() }; foo("bar")
08:37 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
08:37 wolverian right. not supported yet :)
08:37 Aankhen`` Yep.
08:37 Aankhen`` ^_^
08:40 Aankhen`` OK, I need to shower.
08:40 Aankhen`` Later.
08:40 svnbot6 r5829, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: fixed &:parse_keywords and implemented &keywords.
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09:47 mugwump luqui: thanks, I'll let that sit and ponder itself and maybe later it'll help me :)
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10:49 nothingmuch moose
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10:54 szabgab ?eval my $fh = open "/tmp/file", :r, :w err print $!
10:54 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&:w"
10:54 nothingmuch szabgab: evalbot protects itself against opens
10:54 szabgab ?eval my $fh = open("/tmp/file", :r, :w) err print $!
10:54 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&Pugs::Internals::openFile"
10:55 szabgab I hoped so :-)
10:55 szabgab but this does not seem to work on my machine either :-(
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12:05 autrijus try :rw?
12:08 szabgab :rw does not seem to work either
12:08 szabgab returns Scalar
12:10 autrijus :rw worksforme
12:10 autrijus I committed a fix for :r :w
12:13 szabgab I added tests, will check them
12:13 svnbot6 r5830, autrijus++ | * Try not using junctions in the prelude where normal short-circuitting
12:13 svnbot6 r5830, autrijus++ |   boolean operators would do.
12:13 svnbot6 r5831, autrijus++ | * make MIME::Base64 installable and skip its tests when
12:13 svnbot6 r5831, autrijus++ |   PGE is unavailable.
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12:20 svnbot6 r5832, szabgab++ | * t/builtins/io/io.t
12:20 svnbot6 r5832, szabgab++ |   add tests for open with :rw and open :r, :w
12:20 svnbot6 r5833, autrijus++ | * unTODO a passing pair binding test
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12:22 scook0 autrijus: did you see the p6c thread about PIL nodes?
12:22 autrijus scook0: I did
12:22 autrijus I'm however still neck deep in PIL redesign :)
12:23 scook0 ah
12:23 QtPlatypus autrijus: I would like to remove the code that does  ="string"  It looks incredably wrong to me.
12:23 QtPlatypus (In prelude)
12:23 QtPlatypus But would like to know if that would be welcomed.
12:23 autrijus for =<> { ... }
12:23 scook0 I was trying to figure out what each of them does by using context, but that's hard when half of the needed context doesn't exist yet
12:24 autrijus was the motivation
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12:24 autrijus for =<README.txt> -> $line { ... } # this too
12:25 autrijus see S04
12:25 kolibrie autrijus: I found your Template::Extract yesterday.  Very handy.  Might use it.
12:25 autrijus kolibrie: thanks :)
12:26 scook0 oh, quick question:
12:26 autrijus QtPlatypus: otoh, maybe =<> is really the special case and =$str should not have worked
12:26 autrijus QtPlatypus: but I don't know... I kind of like that in fact
12:26 scook0 in 'TCxt' and 'TParam', what does the 'T' mean?
12:26 autrijus the T means "Translate" which is the old name for "CodeGen"
12:27 autrijus maybe rename them to CCxt and CParam now
12:27 autrijus but Cxt and Param should be unified anyway
12:27 QtPlatypus But it goes against = meaning "Iterate this itereator"
12:27 autrijus QtPlatypus: but if a string is taken to be an iterator over the file named by it
12:27 autrijus I mean that's not worse than the empty string meaning iterating over $*ARGS
12:27 QtPlatypus Ok I can live with that
12:28 scook0 how come they need to be separate from Cxt/Param -- different requirements for the compiler?
12:28 autrijus cool. if you can't, post on p6l to fix S04 :)
12:28 autrijus scook0: sure, Param's paramDefault is a parse tree Exp
12:28 autrijus whilst TParam's is already compiled
12:28 autrijus etc
12:29 autrijus TCxt is mostly there just for the TTailCall case.
12:29 scook0 I see
12:35 * nothingmuch makes noises
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12:39 autrijus brb, fbsd-6 installed, rebooting
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12:46 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { }; class Bar[::Baz] { }; Bar[Foo].new
12:46 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", "-", trait, ";" or end of input
12:53 Aankhen`` Are parameterized classes slated for inclusion in Perl 6, at this time?
12:55 scook0 Aankhen``: I don't recall reading otherwise--I'd be very disappointed if they weren't
12:56 Aankhen`` Me too, now that I've come to realize what they could be used for.  I was getting a little worried since I heard @Larry was considering removing them.
12:57 Aankhen`` But that was quite a while ago, so maybe the "considering" was completed and the notion discarded. =)
12:57 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = <a b c d>; "$foo"
12:57 evalbot6 'a b c d'
12:58 scook0 you need them if you ever want to write "my @a of Thing is MyArrayClass"
12:58 scook0 and using static typing without them is a bit of a pain
12:59 Aankhen`` I'll take your word for it.
12:59 scook0 not that I'm authoritative
12:59 Aankhen`` S'okay, you are more so than me. :-)
13:00 scook0 It's just that I can't imagine Larry being silly enough to deliberately omit them
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13:36 svnbot6 r5834, Aankhen++ | * moved large part of functionality from HTTP::Request::CGI to new class: HTTP::Query.
13:36 svnbot6 r5834, Aankhen++ | * fixed &param (rw version).
13:36 svnbot6 r5834, Aankhen++ | * renamed &delete_param to &delete, &delete_params to &clear within HTTP::Query (HTTP::Request::CGI still uses the former versions).
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13:45 svnbot6 r5835, Aankhen++ | * parameter added to HTTP::Headers, HTTP::Request, HTTP::Request::CGI and HTTP::Response -- URI_CLASS.
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ | * Implement the new object hierarchy as proposed in
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |   "Elimination of Item|Pair and Any|Junction" on p6l:
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |     - Object
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |         - Any
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |             - Item
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |                 - ...pretty much everything
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |             - Pair
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |         - Junction
13:45 svnbot6 r5836, autrijus++ |     http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/22462
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13:47 Aankhen`` Break. &
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14:07 svnbot6 r5837, Aankhen++ | * removed URI_CLASS parameter from HTTP::Headers.
14:07 svnbot6 r5837, Aankhen++ | * fixed inheritance for HTTP::Request and HTTP::Response.
14:07 svnbot6 r5838, Aankhen++ | * sanitized HTTP::Request::CGI somewhat. "What the heck was I thinking?"
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14:26 jdv79 this may be an odd if not evil question but... its really novel and cool that p6 can be compiled to js but are there any plans to compile to the JVM and/or the .NET VM?
14:26 svnbot6 r5839, szabgab++ | * examples/ppt/cat.p6
14:26 svnbot6 r5839, szabgab++ |   added
14:26 svnbot6 r5840, szabgab++ | * docs/other/porting_howto
14:26 svnbot6 r5840, szabgab++ |   add info about file reading/writing
14:26 svnbot6 r5841, szabgab++ | * examples/cookbook/07file-access/
14:26 svnbot6 r5841, szabgab++ |   More cookbook entries regarding file access
14:26 svnbot6 r5842, autrijus++ | * `make ghci` should not trigger prelude building -- it is meant to be
14:26 svnbot6 r5842, autrijus++ |   run after a regular `make` or `make unoptimised`.  The reason
14:26 svnbot6 r5842, autrijus++ |   is that ghci won't produce the stage-1 pugs executable anyway.
14:26 jdv79 might be a little more practical:)
14:27 dudley jdv79: stevan checked in the beginnings of a Java version of the metamodel
14:28 dudley it's in perl5/org.perl6.metamodel
14:30 autrijus jdv79: we need the metamodel for CLR
14:30 autrijus as well as an emitter -- maybe port AbsIL over to perl6 and/or haskell.
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14:31 svnbot6 r5843, autrijus++ | * Primitive listops now handles Pairs as regular arguments
14:31 svnbot6 r5843, autrijus++ |   instead of named bindings.
14:33 pdcawley_ Argh... any svk whizzes about?
14:33 autrijus hm?
14:33 pdcawley_ I've deleted a subdirectory, and can't seem to get it back.
14:33 pdcawley_ if I do svk up, nothing returns.
14:33 autrijus svk revert -R subdir
14:34 pdcawley_ Thanks. Obvious if you're not stupid :)
14:34 autrijus :)
14:35 * QtPlatypus ponders nominating Damian Conway for Australian of the year.
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14:44 svnbot6 r5844, autrijus++ | * Fix Test::Builder test to run correctly from pugs's basepath.
14:44 svnbot6 r5844, autrijus++ |   We really should consolidate the run_pugs stuff into Test.pm...
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14:56 geoffb QtPlatypus, not that I disagree, but what prompted that?
14:56 geoffb (the Damian comment)
14:58 geoffb BTW, went to my first Perl Mongers meeting last night, and preached the Pugs/Perl 6 goodness.  People were impressed and highly curious.  Especially the part about Haskell being involved . . .
14:59 autrijus especially? :)
14:59 autrijus nice. and which .pm is that?
15:00 geoffb Sonoma
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15:01 osfameron Sonoma?
15:01 osfameron ah, San Francisco area
15:01 geoffb It's interesting how the new available things are scaring people, because they believed them to be required.
15:02 geoffb The type system especially.  Making Perl 5 junkies very nervous that their one liners and micro hacks are a thing of the past
15:02 acme there's a sonoma.pm?
15:03 geoffb osfameron, yea, O'Reilly HQ area (it used to be there, but then moved to a guitar factory in Santa Rosa)
15:03 geoffb acme, yep
15:03 acme and i missed it!
15:03 geoffb I never thought to look before, since I knew there were a couple in SF and Oakland I think, but sure enough, there it was
15:04 cdpruden has joined #perl6
15:05 geoffb And BTW, the guy that owns the guitar factory (Alembic) is one of the coolest ubergeeks I can think of.  Storage areas there are like a history of computing.  They still use a commodore PET on the factory floor to control a machine that used to be driven by paper tape.  :-)
15:11 stevan howdy all
15:11 geoffb howdy, stevan
15:12 stevan geoffb: preachin' the P6::Bible I see :)
15:12 geoffb nodnod
15:13 geoffb I started to describe meta-operators, and the guitar company owner goes "Oh, like APL?"
15:13 stevan everybody secretly loves APL I think
15:13 geoffb heh
15:13 stevan just no one will admit it
15:14 geoffb This guy stood a decent chance of actually being able to competently program in it, though I didn't ask
15:18 coral APL?
15:18 svnbot6 r5845, autrijus++ | * `Item`, not `Scalar`, becomes the default type for unannotated $param
15:18 svnbot6 r5845, autrijus++ |   in parameter list.
15:18 svnbot6 r5846, autrijus++ | * Tree.pm's use of `Any $node` in BUILD defeated named binding
15:18 svnbot6 r5846, autrijus++ |   under the new treatment of `Any` that includes `Pair`. fixed.
15:18 stevan coral: A Programming Language is what it stands for IIRC
15:18 stevan google it
15:18 coral heh, got it
15:19 QtPlatypus geoffb: Seeing an Australian of the year nonimation add.
15:19 geoffb nodnod
15:22 QtPlatypus I think perl programers like it because combines extreem power with line noise like chars.
15:22 QtPlatypus (APL that is)
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15:32 eric256 over a week without a journal entry?   is everyone okay? ;)
15:33 stevan I got the shakes
15:33 stevan cold sweats
15:33 geoffb And I've got a new facial tic
15:33 stevan leg cramps, and flu like symptoms
15:33 autrijus eric256: I'm alive... that's all. got lots of $job all of a sudden.
15:33 Khisanth stevan: you have been sitting around too long!
15:33 geoffb iblech: at the PM meeting when I talked about pugs, the biggest oohs and aahs came when I explained that we have a JS backend.
15:34 stevan Khisanth: :)
15:34 Khisanth hmm are any of the adverbial stuff being parsed yet?
15:34 stevan autrijus: I assumed you were playing the Sims... not $working
15:34 iblech geoffb: :)
15:34 Khisanth besides for s/// and m//
15:34 knewt_ is now known as knewt
15:34 iblech Khisanth: @array.map:{...}?
15:34 autrijus stevan: the Sims only lasted for 2 days
15:34 autrijus the rest is $work
15:34 stevan autrijus: not virtual enough a reality for you ;)
15:34 autrijus that's right
15:35 autrijus actually most of the time I'm still in paper-reading (and TaPL rereading) mode
15:35 eric256 $work is evil. ;)
15:35 autrijus as I'm trying to map PIL into something less baroque, and apply colored local type inferences
15:35 stevan autrijus: I have been learning CLOS myself :) # the Art of the MetaObject protocol
15:35 autrijus so I can unify Cxt with Typ
15:35 stevan $work--
15:36 stevan autrijus: if I do a metamodel for the CLR, what language should I do it in? C#? or ISALM?
15:36 geoffb & # cat ==> vet
15:36 eric256 class Work is Evil and Bad {}   # we need an "and" for classes
15:36 stevan geoffb: if you keep squishing the cat through pipes, of course you going to have to take it to the vet
15:37 autrijus stevan: C# for sure
15:37 stevan eric256: class Work is Evil|Bad {}
15:37 stevan junctive types :)
15:37 stevan (although that wont really work)
15:37 stevan autrijus: ok, if I can get Mono working, I will drop the Java port (at least for now)
15:38 autrijus cool
15:39 Khisanth does the java port emit bytecode?
15:39 stevan autrijus: when you have a second, take a look at MetaClass.pm, about 50% of it is defined as a MetaClass instance :)
15:39 autrijus Khisanth: the java port is only object space for now, not emitter
15:39 stevan Khisanth: no, it is just a port of the MetaModel classes
15:39 autrijus stevan: oooh
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15:39 stevan autrijus: :)
15:40 stevan (The Art of the MetaObject Protocol)++ (CLOS)++
15:40 autrijus so, you think I can start porting?
15:40 stevan autrijus: not yet (if you can wait) I want to try and get that percentage higher
15:40 autrijus sure, I can wait
15:42 autrijus I want to get the depth subtyping for role's .does() working
15:42 autrijus to kill the java bug of invariant subtyping for parametric types
15:42 autrijus eg:
15:42 stevan depth subtyping?
15:42 autrijus role Foo[$t] { ... }
15:42 autrijus Foo[Int].does(Foo[Num]) # t? f?
15:43 autrijus in Java that needs to be false always
15:43 stevan Funky
15:43 autrijus actually CLR too
15:44 integral does perl6 compute contra/co-variancy like o'haskell?
15:44 autrijus integral: that's what I'm trying to hack in, yes.
15:44 autrijus o'haskell does that?
15:45 autrijus ah. indeed it does
15:46 autrijus so the idea is to inspect the definition in the body of Foo to see the use of $t
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15:47 integral that'll be cool,   it'll confuse the hell out of newbies,  but it'll be damn cool using long words to explain it :-P
15:47 autrijus and if it's only used in "returns" position then Foo[Int].does(Foo[Num]) indeed is true.
15:48 autrijus however if $t is used in parameter lists, then Foo[Num].does(Foo[Int]) instead.
15:48 autrijus if it's used in both positions, we'll be forced to do what java/clr does and declare that neither does the other.
15:48 integral so if a class gets extended it's variancy could change
15:48 autrijus (and if it's not used, then Foo[whatever].does(Foo[whatever_else]))
15:48 integral autrijus: that's what o'haskell does too
15:48 autrijus yes.
15:48 autrijus good. I ran into that idea in TaPL
15:49 autrijus TaPL calls it Source and Sink, and I thought it's really cool.
15:50 autrijus integral: so yes, when you reopen a type, then variancy would indeed change. which is just as well, because .does is a runtime operation.
15:51 autrijus all compiler-inferred hints in p6 is just hints.
15:51 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (*&block) { &block() }; foo():{ "foo" }
15:51 evalbot6 pugs: Internal error:     doBindArray: unexpected char: '&' Please file a bug report.
15:51 autrijus they can be destroyed and recalculated in runtime.
15:51 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Code *$block) { $block.() }; foo():{ "foo" }
15:51 evalbot6 'foo'
15:51 Aankhen`` Is there any chance `*&block` could be made to work?
15:51 autrijus sure. fixed. committing.
15:51 autrijus please write a test
15:52 Aankhen`` Yay.
15:52 Aankhen`` OK, one sec.
15:59 Aankhen`` Added as t/subroutines/slurpy_code_param.t -- very basic tests.
15:59 Aankhen`` Gotta run to dinner.
15:59 Aankhen`` BBIAF.
15:59 svnbot6 r5847, autrijus++ | * This should work:
15:59 svnbot6 r5847, autrijus++ |     sub foo (*&block) { &block() }; foo():{ "foo" }
15:59 svnbot6 r5847, autrijus++ |   i.e. slurpy non-@ sigils should be treated as slurpy scalars.
15:59 svnbot6 r5848, Aankhen++ | * added tests for `Code *$block` and `*&block`.
15:59 svnbot6 r5849, Aankhen++ | * t/slurpy_code_param.t - usual SVN props.
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16:17 autrijus Atom.isa(Item), not Item.isa(Atom), because you say "that pair of people are an item."
16:17 autrijus -- lwall
16:17 * autrijus rolls eyes
16:17 autrijus er.
16:18 autrijus Pair.isa(Item), not Item.isa(Pair), because you say "that pair of people are an item."
16:18 autrijus good. he changed his mind immediately two lines below.
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16:20 dudley so, Item.isa(Atom)?
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16:25 autrijus no, not really. I don't think Atom is a great idea
16:25 autrijus I need to sleep. see ya tomorrow :) *wave*
16:26 dudley 'night
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16:36 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { does Hash; }
16:36 evalbot6 ['Object', 'Hash']
16:36 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { does Hash; }; my $foo = Foo.new(); $foo<bar> = "baz"; $foo.keys
16:36 evalbot6 Error: Not a keyed reference: VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Foo"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 51})
16:39 iblech Aankhen``: Pugs doesn't care ATM whether somebody does the Hash role -- it only checks $foo for being a VHash
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16:39 Aankhen`` OK, thanks.
16:39 Aankhen`` Would that work the way it seems to, though?
16:42 iblech Yep
16:42 Aankhen`` Kewl.
16:43 Aankhen`` What about this: class Foo does Hash { has %:bar; method STORE ($name, $val) { %:bar{$name} = $val }; method FETCH ($name) { %:bar{$name} } }
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16:45 iblech I asked Larry this once. The actual method names might be different, but that's the idea, I think. Also note that IIRC the key ($name) is *not* a Str, but a special Key object supporting multi-dimensional lookup
16:46 Aankhen`` Ah, okay.
16:46 Aankhen`` So it would entail different method names and... a different way of using $name?
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16:47 iblech Yep, I think so
16:47 svnbot6 r5850, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Query: populate `@:params` with names to preserve order.
16:47 Aankhen`` Kewl.
16:47 Aankhen`` Thanks for the info. :-)
16:48 iblech Sure :)
16:48 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = "__ab_cd__"; $foo .= trans(_ => '-'); $foo
16:48 evalbot6 \'__ab_cd__'
16:48 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = "__ab_cd__"; $foo .= trans('_' => '-'); $foo
16:48 evalbot6 \'__ab_cd__'
16:48 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = "__ab_cd__"; $foo.trans('_' => '-')
16:48 evalbot6 '__ab_cd__'
16:48 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = "__ab_cd__"; $foo.trans('a' => '-')
16:48 evalbot6 '__-b_cd__'
16:49 Aankhen`` Weird.
16:50 iblech Ah! That's probably because _ => ... is bound to the parameter %_ (which all methods have (dunno why though)), not to *@all_substitutions
16:51 Aankhen`` Oh, right.
16:51 Aankhen`` All methods... hmm, IIRC, only submethods ought to have an automatic %_.
16:51 Aankhen`` *%_, even.
16:51 Aankhen`` Would it be a problem if I changed *%intable to *%_?
16:52 Aankhen`` Wait, that still wouldn't fix it.
16:52 Aankhen`` Bah.
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16:52 iblech Dunno, as I don't know what *%_ is exactly :)
16:53 Aankhen`` Ahh, it's okay, it's not of critical importance.
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17:05 svnbot6 r5851, Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Query: fixed FETCH and STORE blocks for &param.
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17:41 svnbot6 r5852, iblech++ | * Usual svn properties.
17:41 svnbot6 r5852, iblech++ | * t/builtins/bool/true.t, t/builtins/lists/map.t, t/builtins/control_flow/try.t:
17:41 svnbot6 r5852, iblech++ |   unEVALs.
17:41 svnbot6 r5852, iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
17:41 svnbot6 r5852, iblech++ |   * my $arrayref = @array causes $arrayref to actually contain an arrayref now.
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17:47 iblech FYI, updated JS testsuite: http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/not_perm/pil2js-demo/t/
17:51 autrijus do we get a jssmoke? :)
17:53 iblech runjs.pl works :) But, as I haven't found a way to disable loading of Test.pm (it's precompiled), it's sloow...
17:55 iblech Anyway, need to sleep now (like you, autrijus :D) :)
17:55 iblech Night all :)
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17:56 autrijus iblech++ # great work
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18:29 gaal meow
18:32 autrijus purr
18:32 gaal sup :)
18:33 autrijus doing boring $job ;)
18:33 jfb_ has joined #perl6
18:33 gaal lots of $work for everyone...
18:33 autrijus indeed
18:33 autrijus when's the hackathon again?
18:33 gaal :(
18:33 gaal it was, except that it wasn't
18:33 autrijus aw. how come
18:34 gaal because not many people came. nothingmuch was incapacitated
18:34 gaal well, szabgab (my successor in Israel.pm moose-with-the-hatitude) came, and eilara did too (he's the hacker responsible for Apect.pm)
18:35 gaal and it was lots of fun showing off pugs to interested people
18:35 gaal but they could only stay for part of the time
18:35 gaal so my fridge is full of mozarella and other pizza parts :(
18:36 jfb_ has left "Leaving"
18:36 gaal i think next time i'll make registration mandatory :)
18:36 autrijus riight :)
18:36 gaal !-2 =~ s/Apect/Aspect/
18:37 gaal very cool module
18:37 gaal made somewhat redundant by p6; or maybe not.
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18:39 gaal lumi and shlomi also came, and it was fun for a while but not much hacking was acocmplished.
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18:41 gaal i'm off to help a friend move two cats. later!
18:42 autrijus ciao!
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19:27 * QtPlatypus giggles mildly "Whenever I search for perl6 stuff in google, google adds trys to sell me books about training my pug puppy"
19:30 geoffb heh
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19:55 svnbot6 r5853 | iblech++ | Changed paths:
19:55 svnbot6 r5853 | iblech++ | * t/subroutines/subroutine.t -- unEVAL.
19:55 svnbot6 r5853 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Compile -- Emit &circumfix:<${ }> for Syn "${}" (and similar for
19:55 svnbot6 r5853 | iblech++ |   @{}, etc.) so I can implement the dereferencers in PIL2JS.
19:55 svnbot6 r5853 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Ref -- Implemented ${}, @{}, etc.
19:58 autrijus I thought iblech is sleeping.
19:58 autrijus obviously he acquired the commit-from-sleep power too
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20:07 Steve_p There you are!
20:07 Steve_p autrijus, I'm trying to test some "edge-case" type modules on ponie
20:07 autrijus cool
20:08 Steve_p Are there some of your's that you would suggest?
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20:08 autrijus Devel::Hints
20:08 autrijus PAR itself
20:08 Steve_p I tried PAR and it failed on blead and ponie
20:09 autrijus PerlIO::eol
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20:14 Steve_p OK, back
20:15 Steve_p Yeah, I need to look into the blead breakage a bit more to see what's happening.  It might just be an OpenBSD thing :-/
20:15 autrijus *nod*
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20:35 Steve_p Hmmm...Devel::Hints had problems, but I think that the hint code has been touched in blead.  I try it there too, but it looks like a great edge case ;-)
20:39 Aankhen`` G'night.
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21:16 Darren_Duncan I didn't see any replies yet to my p6l posting ... what do you guys think about Item being broken down into Single and Pair?
21:16 Darren_Duncan where Item is parallel to Junction
21:17 coral Junction!
21:17 coral er, scuse me. hi.
21:19 autrijus Darren_Duncan: there's still the problem of Any
21:19 autrijus if Any is accepted to be the top type, then sure, Single is a good name
21:20 autrijus but I don't think p6l consensus was for Any to include Junction. in that case Any takes place of Single.
21:20 svnbot6 r5854 | fglock++ | Changed paths:
21:20 svnbot6 r5854 | fglock++ | * can't find out the right syntax for coroutine-to-list conversion
21:21 kolibrie so, Any really should get a new name, if it doesn't describe anything
21:21 autrijus er, a type system needs a top type
21:21 autrijus usually in other languaes it's Object
21:21 kolibrie true, there needs to be something there
21:22 autrijus and if bottom type is called All, then that's cute to call the top type Any. but I think that's too cute. I have no problem for the top type be called Object, myself
21:23 autrijus hm, "Eigen" for the non-junction type
21:23 autrijus nah. bad idea
21:23 Darren_Duncan In any event, my answer was separate from the Any/Object thing ...
21:23 Darren_Duncan I was coming up with some way to organize single items, pairs, and junctions
21:23 Darren_Duncan something that isn't a junction
21:23 autrijus right, your proposam amounts to s/Atom/Single/
21:24 Darren_Duncan yes
21:24 autrijus which I don't have a problem with either :)
21:24 Darren_Duncan but also that Pair isa Item
21:24 kolibrie I like Single better than Atom
21:24 kolibrie I think
21:24 autrijus basically I was arguing that there's a value for Any to be the NonJunction type
21:24 autrijus because
21:25 autrijus -> Any $x { ... }
21:25 Darren_Duncan Anyway, if there is support for what I proposed, it would be nice to hear it on list where it's more visible
21:25 autrijus should probably not accept junctions in $x position
21:25 autrijus in that case we don't need Single; Item can be Single and Any can be Item.
21:26 autrijus but if Any is instead taken to include Junction, then I fully support what you said :)
21:26 Darren_Duncan I think that Any should include Junction
21:26 kolibrie in my mind, the word Any includes Junction
21:26 kolibrie but I'd like to have a NonJunction thing
21:27 kolibrie just maybe not called Any, to avoid confusion
21:27 autrijus right. in that case Item is fine.
21:27 Darren_Duncan in my mind, Any is about as broad as anything can be ... when you say Any, there isn't anything it can't be
21:27 autrijus and NonPair Item is Single.
21:27 kolibrie yes, sounds right
21:28 clkao heh autrijus. svk is now on eurooscon schedule.
21:29 Darren_Duncan meaning what?
21:29 Darren_Duncan do you mean its development team?
21:30 autrijus Darren_Duncan: I replied on list.
21:31 Darren_Duncan great
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21:32 autrijus Darren_Duncan: as you are one of the few people who actually wrote 'returns'
21:32 Darren_Duncan I saw you had a post on it
21:33 autrijus maybe you'd like to check whether my #2 and #3 checks both makes sense to you
21:33 autrijus even on compile time
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21:34 autrijus i.e. for both to happen on compile time, when you write "returns Str", you can't return a supertype of Str, nor can you use that function in a position that demands a subtype of Str.
21:34 autrijus (I happen to think that's sane)
21:34 Darren_Duncan have to think
21:35 osfameron can you cast in perl6 like in Java?
21:35 autrijus osfameron: coerce:<as>
21:35 autrijus A12
21:35 osfameron okie
21:36 Darren_Duncan before reading too far in, my impression with typing a 'returns' is that it has the same purpose as typing an argument
21:36 osfameron so... more verbose, but presumably has to be used much less
21:36 Darren_Duncan doing for output what is done for input
21:36 autrijus osfameron: er no, it is the name of sub
21:36 autrijus it's used like
21:36 autrijus foo("123" as Int)
21:37 autrijus Darren_Duncan: right... but output has two sides
21:37 osfameron heh, 'll reread A12, sorry :-)
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21:38 Shillo Hullo, folks!
21:38 Darren_Duncan considering that the line between compile and runtime actions is kind of blurred, both types of declaration look more like a coersion or promotion
21:38 Darren_Duncan actually, just coersion
21:39 autrijus hi Shillo
21:39 autrijus Darren_Duncan: sure. my point was, is that two coercions or one
21:39 Darren_Duncan in my mind, if you declare a 'returns Any', and the function returns a Str, then a test on the function's return value should say it is a Str and not an Any
21:40 autrijus yup but that check can't be done until runtime
21:40 Darren_Duncan yes
21:40 Shillo autrijus: Hey! Looking at your blog, thought you were abducted by evil agents of Lambda!
21:40 autrijus so that amounts to solution #A of mine
21:40 autrijus Shillo: no, evil agents of $work
21:41 autrijus I think #A agrees with people's intuition; however it also means practically no type errors will happen at compile time
21:41 autrijus since all compound terms will essentially pass all typechecks in any position
21:41 Darren_Duncan yes, I noticed the journal is out of date
21:42 Darren_Duncan still thinking
21:42 autrijus #C is the solution adopted by local type inferencing
21:42 autrijus if you leave the "returns" off, the inferencer will use "Any|All"
21:43 autrijus that has the elegance of when you actually write a type annotation, you will get typecheck
21:43 autrijus but if you leave it off nothing bad will happen
21:43 autrijus it's closer to the ideal of soft, incremental typing
21:44 autrijus #D is the classical ML-style solution. works really well, not neccessarily perlish.
21:44 autrijus I don't know if anyone actually thinks #B is sane.
21:45 Darren_Duncan it seems to me that using Any could simply force checking to run time, whereas to get compile time checking you can't use Any
21:45 autrijus but that's not limited to Any
21:45 autrijus consider if I've written Object instead
21:45 autrijus or Item
21:45 autrijus or Single
21:45 Darren_Duncan yes
21:45 autrijus so it's really, how "dynamic" perl6 is
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21:48 svnbot6 r5855 | iblech++ | Changed paths:
21:48 svnbot6 r5855 | iblech++ | PIL2JS:
21:48 svnbot6 r5855 | iblech++ |   * New primitive: &infix:<cmp>
21:48 svnbot6 r5855 | iblech++ |   * &sort implemented, but doesn't work yet if the comparator block is omitted,
21:48 svnbot6 r5855 | iblech++ |     willl look into this tomorrow.
21:50 Darren_Duncan perhaps Perl 6 could provide a signature for type declarations that forces tests to happen at compile time ...
21:51 Darren_Duncan such that any same type or promotable type would work, but a coercable type would cause a compile error
21:51 autrijus that's a thought, but then we still have the problem of which one is the default. :)
21:51 autrijus which, really, is what most people will use.
21:51 Darren_Duncan yes
21:51 stevan autrijus: see r5856
21:52 stevan the circle is now complete... MetaClass is defined as an instance of MetaClass
21:52 Darren_Duncan attaboy
21:52 stevan one bootstrap hack, and some private methods are all that remain
21:53 kolibrie stevan: woo hoo!
21:53 autrijus oooh.
21:53 stevan autrijus: we need to discuss how to do things like attributes and methods
21:53 kolibrie any way, later all
21:53 svnbot6 r5856 | Stevan++ | Changed paths:
21:53 svnbot6 r5856 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5 version)
21:53 svnbot6 r5856 | Stevan++ | * MetaClass is now defined in an instance of MetaClass
21:53 svnbot6 r5856 | Stevan++ | ... the circle is now complete !!!!! muhahahahaha :)
21:54 stevan they cannot be defined in the metamodel (at least not easily)
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21:54 stevan but this is a discussion for later, time for me to eat &
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21:54 * stevan is also on dial-up, so I must sign off as well... dial_up--
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22:38 putter I observe that with pugs head optimized on amd64 FC3 with ghc 6.4.1.20050711,
22:38 putter Compiling Pugs.Run.Perl5   ( src/Pugs/Run/Perl5.hs, src/Pugs/Run/Perl5.o )
22:38 putter /tmp/ghc18476.hc: In function `__stginit_PugsziRunziPerl5_':
22:38 putter /tmp/ghc18476.hc:3117: warning: implicit declaration of function `getStablePtr'
22:38 putter And while make test is doing ok, some simple things segfault it.
22:40 Limbic_Region putter - I see those kinds of messages on Win32 but don't think I have a problem with make test
22:41 Limbic_Region well - since I have been in lurker only mode I only build Pugs about once a day and make test - well, I haven't
22:43 putter bah!  as so frequently happens, putter is simply confused.  two test files, same name, in different directories.  one does something simple.  one invokes pge/parrot.  confuse one with another, and the resulting segfaults are unexpected.  sorry for the noise.
22:45 putter For clarity - my segfaults were due to calling pge.  which is unsurprising.  ghc is behaving just fine.
22:46 PerlJam Are there open tickets for the PGE problems?
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22:54 putter PerlJam: I'm afraid pge/parrot development isn't quite organized that way.  The "best" PGE is on a parrot branch (leo-ctx5) which hasn't been merged into trunk yet.  And contributing failing tests is a curated process which can take, well, a long time.  So no.
22:55 PerlJam in that case I think I'll return to waiting for leo to merge his changes into the trunk
22:55 PerlJam and occasionally prod Pm about PGE
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22:56 PerlJam Hmm. oscon is next week isn't it.
22:56 PerlJam ?
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22:59 * PerlJam wanders in a homeward direction
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23:00 putter leo-ctx5 has been usable in the past, though it doesn't build for me (amd64?) at the moment.  note that sometimes making pugs with an external parrot, rather than embedded, is more stable.
23:01 putter PerlJam: do you have something particular you were going to use pge for?  (putter looks around for motivation to finish a rules-on-pcre kludge).
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23:27 Darren_D1ncan testing
23:27 Darren_D1ncan how does this happen?  that my nick just changes?
23:28 Darren_D1ncan I didn't logout/in
23:28 Darren_D1ncan also, I got 3 copies of that 'topic changed to ...' that are the same
23:31 Darren_D1ncan will leave and return ...
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23:34 Darren_Duncan testink
23:34 Darren_Duncan looks right again
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23:44 putter &
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