Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-07-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:17 Darren_D1ncan ping autrijus
00:17 Darren_D1ncan wtf
00:18 Darren_D1ncan re this irc thing
00:19 Darren_D1ncan has left
00:19 autrijus huh.
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00:22 Darren_Duncan autrijus, I was trying to figure out why I kept getting messages saying you changed the topic
00:22 Darren_Duncan but also, my nick inexplicably changed for the second time
00:22 autrijus something is not right with your irc client
00:23 Darren_Duncan the former doesn't appear on the web log, so it may be something at my end
00:23 Darren_Duncan a few minutes ago there was a brief dns name server outage, which may be related
00:25 Darren_Duncan besides that, I have no idea ... my client has behaved well for as long as I've had it
00:31 QtPlatypus ?eval "a" ~~ /a+/
00:31 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
00:40 QtPlatypus rule b { \( <-[()]>+  <b>? <-[()]>+  \) }
00:40 QtPlatypus rule b { \( <-[()]>+  <b>? <-[()]>+  \) }
00:40 QtPlatypus Sorry for the double paste
00:41 QtPlatypus Should the above rule recurses infinitly?  And should it cause a bus error?
00:41 autrijus mm left recursion, fun
00:41 autrijus I can see it recurse, but bus error is intolerable
00:41 autrijus report on p6i/p6c?
00:42 QtPlatypus Will do.
00:43 * QtPlatypus thought that the recursion should be finitie as every step the string as reduced in length by at least 4 chars.
00:44 autrijus more importantly, it will be reduced by one character to the left.
00:45 autrijus two characters, even
00:45 autrijus ( and whatever follows
00:45 autrijus what did you match it to?
00:46 autrijus I tried "(zz)" and it works fine
00:46 autrijus (parrot 0.2.2-release)
00:47 autrijus "(zz(yy)xx)" works too
00:47 QtPlatypus "(a)"
00:48 QtPlatypus I'm using the same release on OSX.
00:48 autrijus it fails correctly for me.
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00:48 autrijus fbsd, external parrot
00:48 QtPlatypus Oh I'm using embedded parrot.
00:48 autrijus that may be it. 0.2.2's embparrot pge worked for me on trivial cases
00:48 autrijus but I didn't test it thoroughly at all
00:48 QtPlatypus Lets see what happens when I unembeded it.
00:48 autrijus nod.
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01:12 QtPlatypus Also is there a way of actually using want?  It seems to return the context that want is called in, rather then the context that the sub lives in.
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01:44 autrijus QtPlatypus: er. right. fixing
01:45 autrijus write a test?
01:45 autrijus or is there one?
01:45 autrijus fixed
01:48 autrijus (r5857)
01:48 svnbot6 r5857 | autrijus++ | Changed paths:
01:48 svnbot6 r5857 | autrijus++ | * &want should return the context of its caller, not of itself.
01:48 svnbot6 r5857 | autrijus++ |   This is likely a regression in 6.2.8; reported by QtPlatypus.
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05:11 brentdax ...odd.
05:11 brentdax Oh, colon is a regex metacharacter now, duh.
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05:27 Khisanth yes it is
05:27 Khisanth :: is much nicer than (?>) :)
05:28 brentdax Quite so.  I just couldn't quite figure out why I was getting "can't parse" errors...
05:29 Khisanth heh
05:30 Khisanth I just realized the other day what [a..b] meant :)
05:38 * Khisanth crosses fingers and hopes pugs will be built when he wakes up
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05:40 putter A question for later:  are adverbs allowed before a parenthesized arg list, or only within and after?  eg, sub foo(+$x){}  foo:x(3)(); ?
05:41 putter thanks.
05:41 putter g'night &
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05:41 Khisanth hmm don't the adverbs for s/// and m// basically come before?
05:43 brentdax Yeah, but that's only possible because ( is banned as a starthing character for a regex.  I think it would be too ambiguous.
05:43 brentdax *starting
05:44 Khisanth heh m(())
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07:14 GeJ Hello all.
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07:15 GeJ I've been following the P6, Pugs and Parrot growth from the distance, and I must say that everytime I read the summarizers' mails, I get a huge headache.
07:16 coral summarizers mails?
07:16 GeJ Piers Cawley and Matt Fowles (I think), the weekly emails...
07:16 coral oh, pdc is still doing that. cheers to him for it.
07:17 pdcawley Why thank you.
07:17 coral whoah
07:17 coral speak and ye shall be praised
07:17 coral where do i sign up for those emails incidentally
07:17 pdcawley perl6-announce@perl.org is the mailing list, can't remember the subscribe incantation.]
07:18 coral erk
07:18 pdcawley But it's mailman...
07:18 coral how about pugs
07:18 pdcawley That gets the pugs announcements too.
07:18 coral heavy traffic?
07:18 pdcawley Nah.
07:18 GeJ I couldn't agree more. The summarizers' job is awesome. It makes me think I can understand everthing... until I follow the links to the google groups... and then, the headaches come back.
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07:18 pdcawley Unless Autrijus is on *fire*
07:19 coral which he always is
07:19 pdcawley There's also parrot release announcements, but they're monthly.
07:19 pdcawley Pugs releases are more frequent, but not insanely so.
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07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Changed paths:
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Added spaces to all escaped output in Test::Builder::Output.
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Pass test numbers to new tests in Test::Builder::Test (oops).
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Create tests properly in Test::Builder.
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Added diag() to Test::Builder until "handles" works.
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Fixed diag() documentation in Test::Builder.
07:20 GeJ I guess I lack some knowledge on the "concepts" raised in the discussions. (the first ones that come to mind are MMD, Monads, Junctions, and so many others...)
07:20 svnbot6 r5858 | chromatic++ | Minor cosmetic fixes to t/010_Test_Builder.t.
07:22 GeJ Would you have any hint/advice for me to find more on these? Maybe somewhere in the svn repository is there already some doc about all these?
07:22 coral those sound like haskell terms
07:22 coral i have some links on that
07:23 pdcawley I don't know what a monad is frankly....
07:23 coral http://www.cs.uu.nl/~afie/​haskell/tourofsyntax.html http://www.cs.uu.nl/~afie/ha​skell/tourofprelude.html#map
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07:23 coral those are all i have
07:23 coral um
07:23 coral someone else who's more active here should have better links than i do for your questions
07:23 coral autrijus: ping
07:24 coral the pugs kwiki (see topic url) should be of great assistance to you actually, probably lots of good starting stuff there
07:24 GeJ good, good... I'm going to have a look at it. thanks a lot.
07:24 coral nod
07:24 coral try again at another time of day
07:25 coral the participation here fluctuates wildly
07:25 GeJ And I think it's true what they say : "There's only one thing better than having one autrijus on the project, it's having two autrijuses on the project."
07:25 coral yes
07:25 brentdax Anybody know why Pugs's error messages appear in my server's error log with one character per line?
07:25 coral heh!
07:26 coral "my server's"?
07:26 brentdax Well, Apache, running on my laptop.
07:26 coral pugs cgi or mod_pugs?
07:26 brentdax Pugs CGI.
07:27 brentdax A mod_pugs supervisor will make a great project *after* September 1.  ;^)
07:28 brentdax (where a supervisor is the chunk of code that interfaces with the web server's API, and September 1 is the due date for Summer of Code projects.)
07:30 coral heh
07:30 svnbot6 r5859 | chromatic++ | Changed paths:
07:30 svnbot6 r5859 | chromatic++ | Bumped up version numbers.
07:30 svnbot6 r5859 | chromatic++ | Added Test::Builder::Tester and t/050_Test_Builder_Tester.t.
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10:07 nothingmuch wmorning
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10:33 * castaway tickles nothingmuch
10:40 masak nothingmuch is apparently not very ticklish
10:41 nothingmuch actually I am, i'm just not seeing anything
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10:41 * nothingmuch gets tickled retroactively
10:41 nothingmuch (irssi's display broke - everything was black)
10:43 castaway ,)
10:45 kgftr|konobi http://use.perl.org/~sri/journal/25919 - intresting read
10:46 nothingmuch que konobi?
10:48 castaway not particularly interesting..
10:48 nothingmuch oops, thread got deleted
10:50 castaway thread deleted?
10:50 nothingmuch the link didn't show anything
10:50 nothingmuch in the archives
10:50 nothingmuch or maybe it just didn't load right?
10:50 nothingmuch hmmm.....
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10:52 castaway maybe, should be in my inbox somewhere tho..
10:54 nothingmuch yeah, mine too
10:55 * castaway giggles insanely at [email@hidden.address] (messageid)
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11:12 castaway hmm, odd, I cant find those msgs either.. is cdbi moderated?
11:19 QtPlatypus Is there some way to get the equiverlent of $/.keys ?
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13:29 nothingmuch i think perl 6 is really starting to need a higher order "Type" type
13:29 nothingmuch that can express relationshipts
13:29 nothingmuch (x of OtherType)
13:29 nothingmuch containment (a special case of 'of')
13:29 nothingmuch reference
13:29 nothingmuch delegation
13:29 nothingmuch and so on and so forth
13:30 nothingmuch we are trying to fit a type system with N dimentions which are completely orthogonal into a flat namespace
13:30 nothingmuch and it's just not working
13:30 nothingmuch haskell's type parametarization is closer to what we need, but still not good enough since we have more than one type of containment
13:31 nothingmuch and also touples suck in haskell.
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13:31 nothingmuch (The type declaration, that is... there is an infinite amount of touple types, (a,a), (a,a,a) ... (a, ..., a)
13:31 integral "tuple"
13:33 spinclad [a]
13:34 spinclad a => [a]
13:34 integral I suppose this is relevant for arrows, where there's standard things to combine two into (a (b,c) (d,e)), but not three into (a (b,c,d) (e,f,g)), you have to cope with (b,(c,d))
13:37 spinclad haskell makes a:[a] easy (shift/unshift) but not [a]:a (push/pop)
13:38 spinclad and nm, i think i've heard you complain of not knowing a way to declare [Any], as it were.
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13:42 spinclad i certainly agree with perl6 needing more type algebra.
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13:53 nothingmuch integral: oops... =)
13:53 nothingmuch spelling is not my strong side
13:54 nothingmuch spinclad: think of lists as streams coming out of nowhere
13:54 nothingmuch e.g. - don't try doing push/pop unless you absolutely really need it
13:54 nothingmuch and then you can use map instead
13:54 * nothingmuch has to go
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14:04 * nothingmuch returns
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14:06 nothingmuch spinclad: well, i gues i could implement my own type class Any
14:06 nothingmuch and make a dummy function
14:07 nothingmuch something like 'id' or somesuch
14:07 nothingmuch and then just implement it for the types i'm interested in
14:07 nothingmuch maybe I can even glue 'deriving' into that
14:07 nothingmuch but i don't really want Any in haskell, that subverts many things
14:07 nothingmuch i would like union types, and I'm not sure you can get them
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15:21 obra seen fglock
15:21 jabbot obra: fglock was seen 12 days 22 hours 48 minutes 59 seconds ago
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16:08 * nothingmuch feels like kicking something
16:08 geoffb why?
16:09 nothingmuch annoying quaterly meeting
16:09 nothingmuch i misunderstood an email
16:10 nothingmuch (i want to get an ipod shuffle for someone's birthday present, with an itatu thing, but getting them to print one includes a $150 initial setup fee)
16:10 geoffb bleah
16:11 nothingmuch i also feel crappy
16:11 nothingmuch since I forgot my cream at home, and my face is about to burst
16:11 nothingmuch dermatitis is annoying
16:11 * nothingmuch can't blink properly
16:11 nothingmuch i think I want to buy a boxing back for work... this should resolve some issues.
16:11 geoffb that sounds nasty
16:12 nothingmuch oh - there's also a major annoyance with grep on cygwin WRT dos/unix line endings
16:12 geoffb "Cygwin: Close, But No Cigar."
16:12 geoffb replace gnu grep with perl grep
16:12 nothingmuch i wish
16:13 nothingmuch i want to rewrite our whole test system in perl
16:13 nothingmuch we have such a wad of crap right now
16:13 geoffb so why don't you?
16:13 nothingmuch people are taking result tables out of human-optimized tools
16:13 nothingmuch they are fudging the output to remove english sentances so that only data is left
16:13 geoffb Oh god, the dreaded "I keep all that in an Excel spreadsheet" syndrome?
16:13 nothingmuch then they make a 4 line pipeline with grep, awk, sed, cut, etc
16:13 nothingmuch and then they compare the resulting text files to a defacto result file with diff
16:14 geoffb oh dear.
16:14 nothingmuch instead of just having a real perl table, and using Test::Deep
16:14 geoffb That's . . . awful, but sadly normal
16:14 nothingmuch the only problem is that the QA department is doing too omuch fire fighting at the moment to even think of big changes
16:14 nothingmuch and so although everyone wants a big change to make life better, no one can commit to making the effort needed for it
16:15 nothingmuch and since I'm the guy who has to make things work, i need to get this fixed
16:15 nothingmuch a.s.a.p, too
16:16 geoffb Well, that leaves two choices (aside from drastic measures like quitting): deal with suckage, or JFDI.  In my career, I've chosen both options many times.  They both suck.
16:17 geoffb But "better to ask forgiveness than permission" seems to stand me in good stead.
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16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | Changed paths:
16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel (p5)
16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | * added private methods (currently using '_' instead of ':' as a marker)
16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ |     - added test file for this
16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | * moved the last of the private methods of MetaClass into it's MetaClass instance
16:21 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ |   so now only new() and add_method() are needed to bootstrap :)
16:22 geoffb OK, I've been away from the source tree for a couple weeks -- is there a status document now, other than Autrijus' journal?
16:24 * nothingmuch goes home
16:24 nothingmuch geoffb: this is not a big issue for me
16:24 nothingmuch i don't need to quit
16:24 nothingmuch it's just a single event
16:24 nothingmuch most of my work is fun
16:24 nothingmuch i just complain about the bad parts =)
16:24 nothingmuch anyway, adios, i'm getting picked up
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16:40 svnbot6 r5861 | geoffb++ | Changed paths:
16:40 svnbot6 r5861 | geoffb++ | docs/notes/plan: minor spacing and typo cleanups; also no longer state that JS backend is unstarted and less important
16:40 svnbot6 r5862 | geoffb++ | Changed paths:
16:40 svnbot6 r5862 | geoffb++ | READTHEM: point out partial KWID transcription of YAHT
16:40 geoffb What is this "Changed paths:" crap?
16:40 putter geoffb: re status document - no, unfortunately, care to write one? :)
16:40 * Aankhen`` was wondering too.
16:40 * putter too
16:40 geoffb Yes, I'd be happy to -- I just didn't want to repeat someone else's work
16:41 dudley I think iblech made svnbot report which files had been changed in a given revision
16:41 * geoffb is in "doc fix mode" today
16:41 geoffb . . . except it doesn't seem to work
16:41 putter how not?
16:41 geoffb It never shows any files (or at least, I never see such)
16:42 * putter is confused
16:42 geoffb putter, iblech's Changed paths thing for svnbot6.  I'm saying it's broken, because it does not in fact display the changed files
16:42 dudley geoffb: did you put the filenames in your commit messages?
16:42 geoffb Just the header
16:42 putter ahh
16:43 geoffb dudley, yes, I almost always do (if I forget, that's a bug in my brain)
16:43 putter err, why not just use the svn log...?
16:43 dudley ah, well then yes, it doesn't seem to work.
16:44 Aankhen`` I'm taking a look at it.
16:44 geoffb putter, because I'm ircbot-friendly:  This allows people to keep a basic idea of what is changing by reading the backlog
16:44 geoffb (And I got used to it working on projects where you may have a big merge and want to describe what the various parts do.)
16:45 geoffb (checkin buddies)++
16:45 geoffb When you can't have anarchy, check buddies are a close second, and you pretty much have to be good about commit messages if you want that to work
16:46 geoffb Well, work remotely, at least -- I suppose if you can physically sit next to someone, that's even better, but who gets that nowadays?
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16:47 putter ok, so svnbot does use the log to get changed paths, and the "Changed paths:" structure in the revision description provides optional annotation?
16:47 Aankhen`` Yes.
16:47 putter :)
16:47 Aankhen`` I am confirming it. :-P
16:49 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
16:49 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel (p5)
16:49 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | * added private methods (currently using '_' instead of ':' as a marker)
16:49 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ |     - added test file for this
16:49 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ | * moved the last of the private methods of MetaClass into it's MetaClass instance
16:49 svnbot6 r5860 | Stevan++ |   so now only new() and add_method() are needed to bootstrap :)
16:49 svnbot6 r5861 | geoffb++ | docs/notes/plan: minor spacing and typo cleanups; also no longer state that JS backend is unstarted and less important
16:49 svnbot6 r5862 | geoffb++ | READTHEM: point out partial KWID transcription of YAHT
16:49 geoffb Who did the config.yml thing for the builds?
16:49 Aankhen`` Builds?
16:50 Aankhen`` Er, did I latch onto the wrong part of it as significant?
16:50 geoffb make, I mean
16:50 geoffb yes.  :-)
16:50 Aankhen`` Heh.
16:50 * geoffb does svk blame
16:50 Aankhen`` I believe it was gaal.
16:50 Aankhen`` Not quite sure though.
16:50 geoffb oh, OW, that made svk pause
16:52 geoffb Looks like gaal.
16:52 geoffb gaal: if you backlog -- INSTALL needs to be fixed to match your machinations
16:54 pupilzeng has quit IRC ("See you!")
16:55 putter I've a Parser.hs puzzle.  anyone up for it?
16:59 putter autrijus: ping?
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17:03 putter Sigh.  I almost have adverb parsing working, but two lookAhead's are having sideeffects I just dont understand... :(
17:03 Aankhen`` putter++
17:04 brentdax Side effects?  In Haskell?  Horrors!
17:04 putter ok, say "behavioral concequences" ;)
17:04 geoffb .oO( "No, we don't have side effects, we have monads!" )
17:04 Aankhen`` putter: Are you using t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t as a reference or something else?
17:05 putter a rather enlarged adverbial_modifiers.t
17:06 Aankhen`` Welp, heads up... :-)
17:07 Aankhen`` Stupid svnbot6 doesn't know its cue. :-P
17:07 svnbot6 r5863 | Aankhen++ | * t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t: fixed mistakes relating to quoted vs. unquoted named arguments.
17:07 Aankhen`` Oh great, NOW it decides to wake up.
17:08 putter ooo... putter goes to look...
17:08 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Int $bar) { $bar + 2 }; foo(:bar<2>)
17:08 Aankhen`` Bah.
17:09 Aankhen`` Well, it seems it would have worked anyway.
17:11 stevan has joined #perl6
17:12 putter ok, makes sense.   hmm...  with sub f(Int i){}  does f("2")  work (coerce) or fail?
17:13 Aankhen`` pugs> sub f (Int $i) { $i }; f("2")
17:13 Aankhen`` '2'
17:13 Aankhen`` Appears to.
17:13 Aankhen`` Er.
17:13 Aankhen`` Appears to work.
17:13 Aankhen`` Not coerce.
17:14 * putter wonders what is spec...
17:17 putter In Parser.hs, parseNoParenParamList, could someone walk me through this line:   formal <- (`sepEndBy` symbol ":") $ fix $ \rec -> do
17:17 putter ?
17:20 * geoffb decides to try his haskell skills.
17:20 svnbot6 r5864 | Aankhen++ | * HTTP::Request::CGI: made $.query_string read-only.
17:21 geoffb Lessee, the (`sepEndBy` symbol ":") is creating a slice, so the thing to the right will actually become the first argument to sepEndBy,
17:21 geoffb (er, right of the first $)
17:23 geoffb formal <- (fix $ \rec -> do <...stuff..>) `sepEndBy` symbol ":"
17:23 geoffb formal <- sepEndBy (fix $ \rec -> do STUFF) symbol ":"
17:24 geoffb formal <- sepEndBy (fix ( \rec -> do STUFF )) symbol ":"
17:24 geoffb Does that look right so far to the real lambdafolk?
17:25 putter ahhhhh.  and sepEndBy repeated invokes the fix....  
17:25 putter geoffb++  Thank you! :-)
17:25 geoffb You're welcome, I hope I got that right!
17:28 putter Well, I pretty sure I understand where I went down the wrong track.  Now just have to backtrack and try again... :)
17:28 geoffb :-)
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17:54 brentdax Is there an example of how a Pugs module/set of scripts can be distributed outside Pugs itself?  i.e. how it should install itself and so on?
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18:08 geoffb Wow, the 3 variations of the metamodel in perl5/ are nearly 10K lines.
18:08 geoffb stevan++ # cause, DAMN
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18:11 brentdax "*** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Thunk>"  <-- What does that usually indicate?
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18:21 svnbot6 r5865 | geoffb++ | Remove no-longer valid stuff from ext/Set-Infinite/README; delete empty lib/Perl6/Pugs dir
18:21 svnbot6 r5866 | geoffb++ | Bring source map in lib/pugs/hack.pod vaguely up to date, and fix a couple XXXX while in there
18:22 putter brentdax: re distribution, have you looked at freepan?
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18:30 iblech has joined #perl6
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ | PIL2JS:
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |   * libjs/PIL2JS.js -- Added a small comment explaining the autorefification in
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |     my $scalar = @array.
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |   * PIL::Nodes -- Better error messages, as now $?POSITION is updated *before*
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |     doing the parameter checking in subroutines (i.e., before: "Required
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |     parameter "$x" not passed", now: "Required parameter "$x" not passed at
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |     line ...").
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Array -- Fixed (with a small hack) &sort. All 16 tests pass now:
18:30 svnbot6 r5867 | iblech++ |     http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/not_pe​rm/pil2js-demo/t/builtins/lists/sort.t.html
18:31 putter anyone happen to know of something with the same type as  symbol "x"  but which is a no-op?  I'm looking at (lookAhead (satisfy (\c -> True))) but it doesn't quite typecheck...
18:33 iblech putter: return "x" should have the same type as symbol "x"
18:33 osfameron has joined #perl6
18:35 putter ah, so   return ""  is a noop?
18:35 iblech Yep.
18:36 putter oh well.  there goes that bug hypothesis.  Thanks! :)
18:37 iblech :)
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18:44 svnbot6 r5868 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Hash -- my %hash = (a => 1, "b", 2, "c") (i.e. mix between
18:44 svnbot6 r5868 | iblech++ | pairs and normal lists) works now, causing
18:44 svnbot6 r5868 | iblech++ | http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff​/not_perm/pil2js-demo/t/builtins/lis​ts/map_function_return_values.t.html
18:44 svnbot6 r5868 | iblech++ | to pass.
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19:24 svnbot6 r5869 | geoffb++ | Add a blurb about testing to pugs::hack, with terse details about prove to deal with FAQ
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/lists/reduce.t -- Moved the &reduce tests to the beginning and the
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |   [...] reduce metaoperator tests to the end (so PIL2JS has a chance of passing
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |   more than two tests).
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |   * PIL::Nodes -- sub foo {...}; say &foo.arity works now (again)
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Array -- Implemented &reduce (capable of working with n-ary
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |     subs).
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Operators -- Basic ops (+, <, etc.) now correctly obey Perl's
19:25 svnbot6 r5870 | iblech++ |     numification rules, i.e. undef + 3 is now 3 instead of NaN.
19:25 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
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19:29 brentdax Someone's defaced the FreePAN wiki...
19:33 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
19:34 putter :(
19:34 ihb has joined #perl6
19:35 autrijus greetings.
19:35 putter the pugs wiki was getting hit quite frequently, but cleaned up quickly.
19:35 autrijus putter: pong. Parser.hs?
19:35 putter greetings :)
19:35 putter figured out, I think.  testing...
19:36 autrijus I'm almost ready to do PIL2 now, based on F<:, Scala and intersectional object calculi :D
19:36 putter iblech++ geoffb++ for assistance.
19:36 autrijus I'm glad I survived the paper hell
19:36 putter brain feel healthily scrubbed?
19:37 autrijus brentdax: 02:12 < brentdax> "*** Cannot cast into Hash: VRef <Thunk>"  <-- What does that usually indicate?
19:38 autrijus brentdax: this usually means you wrote {a=>1;} where you should've written {a=>1} or something
19:38 autrijus i.e. hash composition did not kick in
19:38 brentdax I see...
19:39 integral will PIL2 (as a haskell type) not be type-indexed?  there's a comment above the PIL type that the type-indexing is "a bit too baroque"
19:39 autrijus putter: well, yeah, except I now more fully grok perl6's immense craziness
19:39 putter quite woot of tests passing.  one would think that having a quite long edit-test cycle would provide time for careful quality analysis.  but instead it seems I'm just slower... ;)
19:39 putter s/quite/quiet/
19:39 autrijus integral: yeah, I concluded type index doesn't help, and regular algebraic types would do. the reason is that type index really only associate it with one internal language, namely PIR
19:39 autrijus integral: while everything else need to be second-class with type classes
19:40 integral yeah,  I suppose one way around is to create types to use just as indices
19:40 geoffb wow, I look away for a couple minutes, and suddenly the channel goes wild.  Hi, autrijus!
19:40 autrijus you mean phantom types in TIP?
19:40 autrijus hi geoffb
19:40 integral err, probably =)
19:40 autrijus integral: type-indexed products is nifty... but I'm thinking far more mundanely, i.e. just give different constructs different levels
19:41 autrijus really, all GADT buy us is (compile :: PIL a -> Comp a)
19:41 integral mundane is nice too :-)
19:41 brentdax You're right... %.attributes is being assigned a thunk.  I wonder where...
19:41 integral it also reminds me a bit of subtyping, but badly crippled
19:42 autrijus well, not neccessarily badly crippled, but it's inconvenient to use as a general subtyping mechanism
19:43 autrijus integral: anyway. the same treatment that enables CodeGen.PIR to say
19:43 autrijus instance (Typeable a) => Translate (PIL a) a where
19:43 autrijus can be replaced with
19:43 autrijus instanace Translate PIL.Lit PIR.Literal where
19:43 autrijus et ceteral
19:43 autrijus via typical type-directed translation
19:44 putter there's a breathtaking task - to fully grok perl6's immense craziness.
19:44 integral hmm, that would make things much tidier
19:44 autrijus putter: I don't claim "fully" :)
19:44 putter bridging the messy p6 kitchen sink, with the world of crystaline type theory, just sounds so... improbable.
19:44 autrijus although I do wish @Larry could reply to ``The meaning of "returns"'' eventually
19:44 * justatheory types crystalinely
19:45 putter re "fully", yes, I noted your "more fully".  quality_qualifiers++
19:46 autrijus putter: the key is to find that there's actually a lot of research already into junctive types, generic roles, container classes, polymorphic parameter types, etc etc
19:47 autrijus just not usually taken together, and almost never in a dynamic/soft typing setting
19:47 osfameron has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:47 geoffb Perl++ # "We are borg..." / "All your concept are belong to us."
19:48 autrijus <lwall> That's odd, thought I. Why should it be, that the Sedulous Bead of Regular Expressions, when bonded together with the Shellacious Bead of Gnostic Interpolation, and the Awkward Bead of Simple Data Typology, should produce more Magic, pound for pound, than they do when strung out on strings? I said to myself, could it be that the beads can exchange power with each other because they no longer have to commune with each other thro
19:48 autrijus <lwall> So I melted that larger bead together with a few more of my favorite beads, and the same thing happened, only more so. It was practically a combinatorial explosion of potential incantations: the Basic Bead of Output Formats and the Lispery Bead of Dynamic Scoping bonded themselves with the C-rationalized Bead of Operators Galore, and together they put forth a brilliant pulse of power that spread to thousands of machines through
19:48 autrijus (foreword, Learning Perl, 1st edition)
19:49 geoffb :-)
19:49 autrijus (although I support the "on something" conjecture more)
19:51 * autrijus wonders when will chromatic's article be up on perl.com
19:51 osfameron has joined #perl6
19:51 brentdax What's he writing about?
19:52 autrijus brentdax: the invention of perl http://www.unix.org.ua/orel​ly/perl/learn32/prf1_01.htm
19:52 autrijus oh.
19:52 autrijus chromatic.
19:52 autrijus ext/Test-Builder/.
19:52 Darren_Duncan greetings
19:52 autrijus heya Darren_Duncan
19:53 autrijus how's life?
19:54 penk has joined #perl6
19:54 * autrijus syncs up on the pil2js work by the iblech machine
19:55 Darren_Duncan I'm trying to get more stuff done than I have time for
19:55 Darren_Duncan it gets frustrating
19:55 Darren_Duncan one can only snip so much from the schedule
19:56 Darren_Duncan my concern is that I won't have Rosetta functional before OSCON
19:56 brentdax Ah, okay.
19:56 Darren_Duncan and there's still packing for the trip, doing backups, etc to do
19:57 Darren_Duncan and imaging the iBook I borrowed to take along
19:57 brentdax Y'know, it'd be kinda nice if a value would capture the call stack as it existed when it was created.
19:58 Darren_Duncan also ... I'm thinking, just after OSCON, of putting Rosetta into a version control system like Pugs to make it easier for others to participate in its development ... but I have no experience in running such a system
19:58 autrijus brentdax: $val.carp?
19:58 autrijus or rather .confess
19:59 osfameron gah, does 'carp' still exist in p6?
19:59 ^conner Darren_Duncan, don't waste your time trying to setup and manage a SCM, there's a number of website that will do that for you (SF, Savanah, etc.)
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20:00 Darren_Duncan so, any recommendations for specific ones ... it should support the svn + svk way of doing things, rather than cvs
20:01 Darren_Duncan in fact, if svk allows for every person to be their own repository, thats what I prefer
20:01 autrijus Darren_Duncan: you can use rt.openfoundry.org, which has a committer-invitation invitation system to svn, but the occasional downtime is irksome. for casual hosting with simple management UI I prefer https://opensvn.csie.org/
20:01 brentdax Something like that.  It would probably be turned off by default, but it'd be dead useful for debugging.  (Especially if it also recorded mutations.)
20:01 autrijus Darren_Duncan: svk is strictly client side thing
20:01 autrijus brentdax: write a t/unspecced/ :)
20:01 putter That is quite the nifty larry intro.  tnx.  :)
20:01 autrijus or if the idea is not that solid yet, post to p6l
20:02 ^conner Darren_Duncan, I'm not sure about svn, maybe tigris
20:02 Darren_Duncan one thing I will want is that committers are by invite only
20:04 ^conner Darren_Duncan, aww ha, http://subversion.tigris.org/project_links.html look towards the bottom of the page
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20:04 Darren_Duncan I also want a system where all of the version history in the repository is also on my client computer, so if the repository goes down for good, all the version info is not lost
20:05 geoffb Darren_Duncan, that would be svk
20:05 geoffb (assuming you mirror all revs)
20:05 ^conner Darren_Duncan, or arch, or monotone, or darcs
20:05 Darren_Duncan it occurs to me, then, that I should start using svk now with Pugs and get used to it, over svn
20:05 putter ?eval 3
20:05 ^conner Darren_Duncan, or (ack) bitkeeper, or even git
20:05 geoffb ^conner, he had specifically mentioned SVN, so . . . :-)
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20:06 geoffb Darren_Duncan, oh, definitely
20:06 ^conner geoffb, well svk != svn
20:06 geoffb svk = client for svn
20:06 geoffb (that also mirrors rev history, has local branches, has a smarter merge algo, etc.)
20:07 Darren_Duncan in brief, any issues/problems I should be aware of that svk has and svn doesn't?
20:07 osfameron ask clkao
20:08 ^conner Darren_Duncan, svk is an improvement over svn... branching and merging with svn isn't more better than cvs
20:08 geoffb svk has several advantages (faster after first checkout, better merge, offline work, etc.), but watching #svk I notice that edge cases often find buglets.  Usually workaroundable, but there nonetheless
20:08 osfameron as in: if you use svk, the maintainer is on channgel, which is kinda cool...
20:08 geoffb Average use seems to Just Work
20:08 Darren_Duncan so switching shouldn't gain me any new problems then?  that's what I wanted to know
20:09 geoffb not that I know of, but osfameron is right -- ask clkao on #svk if you're really nervous
20:09 ^conner Darren_Duncan, I have a huge ammount of respect for svk but you should really think about how much 'faith' your going to put in a SCM, svk isn't completely mature
20:10 autrijus although it's 1)in perl5 and 2)easy to hack :)
20:10 osfameron but it did 1.0 recently, no?
20:10 Darren_Duncan well, currently I don't use an automated version control at all ... nightly tarballs and CPAN releases are my 'checkins'
20:10 ^conner autrijus, don't get me wrong, I think svk is amazing
20:11 autrijus ^conner: sure, and it's just a client, it's hard to get completely borked with a client
20:11 autrijus the svn server is very robust by this point
20:11 ^conner autrijus, I'm both a programmer and a systems admin.... the sysadmin part of me is always nervous about new software in the hands of users
20:11 * PerlJam started using svk last night.
20:11 Darren_Duncan an unrelated question ...
20:11 geoffb heh
20:12 ^conner autrijus, valid point
20:13 Darren_Duncan autrijus, do you hold the copyright to the Pugs core (what isn't in /ext) by yourself, such that other committers have signed their work over to you implicitly, or does each committer retain the copyright on their part?  what do you prefer to be the case?
20:13 geoffb OK, just added a STATUS doc to root dir (r5871).  I could use some help filling in more sections, and fixing any details I just plain misremembered.
20:14 ^conner autrijus, I can confirm that README is correct about GHC on amd64... GC is definately hosed but the suggested work about seems to work
20:19 autrijus ^conner: woot
20:19 svnbot6 r5871 | geoffb++ | First cut of STATUS doc, to let people know what's up with various parts of the pugs world
20:20 autrijus Darren_Duncan: No, license declarations in ext/ automatically override the one in README
20:20 autrijus Darren_Duncan: if you are concerned, reflect this in ext/README or in README itself
20:20 autrijus ooh, geoffb++
20:21 geoffb :-)
20:22 theorbtw1 DD: At least in the US, copyright cannot be signed over implicitly, it takes a written declaration to do so.
20:23 theorbtw1 That's one reason I try to keep people's real names in AUTHORS -- each of those people can be assumed to have some copyright interest in Pugs.
20:23 theorbtw1 is now known as theorbtwo
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20:28 putter I've noticed pugs is currently fudging a lot of copyright issues.  For instance, some folks may have "employer owns shower songs" IP contracts at work.  Which is why gnu requires(?) "employer says its ok" notes, even for stuff done on ones own.
20:29 theorbtwo pugs is rather deliberatly a low-administrative-overhead project.
20:30 theorbtwo This does, of course, increase the likelyhood that somebody's employer will sooner or later do something obnixious of that sort.
20:30 theorbtwo Of course, it also keeps the patches rolling in.
20:31 PerlJam So far I think that pugs is completely withing fair-use territory anyway.
20:31 PerlJam Until someone decides to use it in a production environment.
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20:32 ^conner autrijus, are you going to OSCON this year?  I don't think I say you on the speaker's schedule
20:32 ^conner s/say/saw/
20:32 dada ^conner: neither did I saw Larry Wall, but he's there too
20:33 ^conner dada, Larry's not listen as a keynote speaker thou
20:33 ^conner dada, I wonder if he's not feeling well again
20:33 dada dunno
20:33 ^conner I've had trouble with my stomach too, it's miserable
20:33 putter re low overhead, yes.  and happily so.  but there will have to be a normalization at some point.  for which will need something heavyweight for everyone who has created a large body of code, even the final version only has a derivative of it.
20:36 putter PerlJam: err, IANAL, but commercialness is only one component of fair use.  If iblech say has an unfortunate employment contract, then we are already in trouble.
20:37 PerlJam putter: perhaps.
20:37 PerlJam It's good that pugs is only a bootstrapping effort then  ;)
20:38 autrijus ^conner: I prefer going to .eu nowadays :)
20:38 autrijus ^conner: so I'll be in euroscon but not the portland one
20:38 putter Of course, the biggest threat would be autrijus signing an employment contract with an unfortunate IP clause. ;)
20:38 * clkao giggles at autrijus
20:38 clkao i know you love me!
20:38 clkao but don't say that to everyone!
20:38 autrijus heh.
20:39 ^conner autrijus, going to .eu confernece is a ton of paperwork for me... i'll be going to portland ;)
20:39 autrijus ^conner: ingy will be there to speak as my proxy
20:39 clkao ^conner: are you from dodgy country that requires hateful visa work like me?
20:39 ^conner autrijus, ingy is your minion now? does he know?
20:39 autrijus putter: nah, past licensing = irrevocable
20:39 clkao and sky/acme will be my proxy speaking at oscon
20:40 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
20:40 ^conner clkao, no, I'm a state employee and international travel requires a pound of flesh
20:40 autrijus ^conner: sure, and we both were damian minions. it's turtles all the way down
20:40 clkao a pound money or a pound weight?
20:40 ^conner autrijus, rofl
20:40 clkao i can easily sponsor you a pound money flesh
20:40 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:41 autrijus clkao: you can as easily sponser a pound of other animal's flesh too
20:41 ^conner autrijus, everybody who's met damian becomes his minion ;)
20:41 clkao autrijus: ya, but i guess i can't post them to the us.
20:41 * autrijus is composing a relevant but hard-to-word post to p6l
20:42 clkao autrijus: i need to wire with your brain in eurooscon
20:42 ^conner Damian's p6 talk series in 2000 is what really turned me on to perl in the first place
20:43 geoffb pdcawley, ping
20:47 autrijus clkao: sure
20:47 ^conner clkao, flesh
20:48 svnbot6 r5872 | gaal++ | documentation for config.yml (per geoffb's suggestion)
20:52 ingy ^conner: autrijus is actually *my* minion. He wrote my oscon talk. :p
20:54 PerlJam minions++
20:54 gaal well you know the full title of the pope
20:54 gaal Bishop of Rome,
20:54 gaal [time passes]
20:54 gaal Servant of the Servants of God
20:56 autrijus hmm mutually recursive minions.
20:58 Darren_Duncan okay, I was away for a bit ...
20:58 Darren_Duncan my reason for asking the copyright question actually concerned the Rosetta-in-version-control thing
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21:00 Darren_Duncan to keep things simple at my end, I would like to get a written statement from all committers to the project that says any copyright on their contributions to the project is assigned to me, so in the end I have the sole copyright on it
21:00 Darren_Duncan I was asking about the Pugs situation to see if there was a precedent for me to do something like that
21:00 SwiftOne has left
21:01 Darren_Duncan meanwhile, my assumption has been, Pugs included, that anyone's contributions belong to them if they don't explicitly sign them over ...
21:01 autrijus Darren_Duncan: the usual way is to require contributors to place the code under the same license
21:01 Darren_Duncan so I'm not concerned about Pugs for my sake ... my /ext stuff is stated to belong to me ... and anything in the core as yet I don't have any interest in
21:02 autrijus and/or sign to you a nonexclusive, worldwide, irrevocable,
21:02 autrijus # royalty-free, perpetual, license to use, copy, create derivative
21:02 autrijus # works based on those contributions, and sublicense and distribute
21:02 autrijus # those contributions and any derivatives thereof.
21:02 autrijus (copy/pasted from the standard RT boilerplace)
21:02 Darren_Duncan yes, that works most of the time ... but, selfish as it may sound, I would like the exclusive right to release Rosetta under other licenses
21:02 autrijus that is what the clause gets you.
21:02 autrijus "sublicense"
21:03 Darren_Duncan while the GPL with exception for independent components is still the default for release, that no one can change given the GPL's rules
21:04 autrijus right. that's a popular view; see MySQL, Sleepycat, among others.
21:04 Darren_Duncan yes, in the near term I wanted to do it as MySQL does
21:04 autrijus I conciously avoid all this in Pugs -- in fact I'd adopt the Sqlite license if not for the cultural value of Artistic2
21:04 autrijus but it's because I'm optimizing for fun not profit :)
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21:05 autrijus s/Sqlite license/SQLite antilicense/
21:05 Boogie has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:05 Darren_Duncan of course, I may not actually exercise my right to multi-license, I just want to be left the option
21:06 gaal antilicense is not a good name
21:06 autrijus counterlicense?
21:06 gaal the sql blessing is very licentious :)
21:06 PerlJam autrijus++ nice message regarding PIL
21:06 autrijus PerlJam: thanks. :)
21:06 gaal (in one sense of the word)
21:07 gaal or maybe not actually.
21:07 gaal words, words, words.
21:07 Darren_Duncan I'm actually doing Rosetta etc partly for fun too ... I enjoy working on it ... but at the same time, it forms a foundation for my planned new business
21:08 gaal is freepan still active?
21:08 Darren_Duncan as they say, try to make a living doing what you enjoy
21:08 autrijus nodnod. that's very worthy goal
21:08 autrijus gaal: ask ingy and/or gugod not me :)
21:09 autrijus although I doubt ingy is working on it actively
21:09 gaal winning bread is totally okay, of course, D_D
21:10 gaal but perhaps your project is very yours and ext/ isn't the best place for it?
21:10 autrijus it's up to the author to decide really
21:10 Darren_Duncan I don't have a problem with ext/
21:11 Darren_Duncan I see ext/ as being a mini-cpan or sorts
21:11 Darren_Duncan and part of the reason I am involved here is to help test Pugs, so including it there makes the most sense
21:11 Darren_Duncan it is only in the long term that I anticipate distributing separately
21:12 gaal sure, that has proven very useful
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21:13 gaal but what you're aiming for in commit-waives-copyright is kinda different from most other stuff in pugs...
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21:14 Darren_Duncan currently I see my Perl 5 modules to still be the main versions, and the stuff in /ext is a p6ified clone of those, all aspects included, code, docs, tests, and license
21:15 theorbtwo I agree, if you want a differnet copyright policy then the rest of pugs, that's fine with me... but put it in a differnt repo, then.
21:15 theorbtwo That way you can get the release from people before giving them a commit bit.
21:15 theorbtwo (At least make sure they have the same understanding as you.)
21:16 Darren_Duncan to be clear, I am *not* assuming commit-waives-copyright with anything in Pugs, including what I put in /ext
21:16 theorbtwo Oh.
21:16 theorbtwo OK then.
21:16 Darren_Duncan everything in Pugs is still under the same rules
21:17 gaal that said, it's totally worthwhile hearing about test results in pugs even from external modules; maybe the test consolidation service can service those too.
21:17 Darren_Duncan the policy I mentioned is for when I start an independent repository for the Perl 5 Rosetta
21:17 Darren_Duncan however, aside from a bit of twiddling, no one ever edits my /ext stuff anyway, so it doesn't matter
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21:20 Aankhen`` G'night.
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21:21 Darren_Duncan fyi, the only thing I assume about my /ext stuff is that it has a different license than the rest of Pugs, and people editing my ext/ stuff are subject to that license ... they still keep ownership anyway
21:21 gaal fair enough.
21:21 meppl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:23 Darren_Duncan anyway, I'm switching to another task ... ping if you want my attention
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21:47 autrijus reading http://scala.epfl.ch/docu/files/api/index.html feels like flipping thru a puzzle book to the end to look at the solutions.
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22:22 putter direct links in the web list browser dont seem to work, so I just note http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.scala 07-01 "Our plans for Scala" was interesting.
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22:51 autrijus putter: nod. looks active
22:52 autrijus Scala is very well thought out.
22:52 autrijus if perl6 is statically typed, it would look a lot like scala :)
22:54 * autrijus is playing with Gwydion Dylan
22:55 autrijus from dylan wiki:
22:55 autrijus "Java was successful enough in its own niche, as a Strongly Hyped Language"
22:56 * autrijus ponders soft hyping and dynamic hyping
22:57 ayrnieu Java's lasting success will be that it helped, in a small way, the growth of a decent enough language.
22:57 autrijus yup.
22:58 autrijus and java 1.5 is not bad really. it just require a strong typist for its strong typing.
22:58 ayrnieu I like how Perl and Haskell have common ground in not having annoying type systems :-)
22:59 autrijus Haskell achieves this by really clever inference, and Perl achieves this by having only five nonextensible base types :)
23:00 autrijus (@$%&*, respectively)
23:00 svnbot6 r5873 | putter++ | Improved adverb support.  Adverbs before/within/after parameter lists hopefully now work.  adverbial_modifiers.t has many new tests, to which you are encouraged to add.  Adverbs on operators are still unsupported.
23:00 autrijus ooh. putter++
23:00 gaal http://opal.cabochon.com/~stevey/sokoban/ # JVM language shootout, interesting read
23:01 autrijus hm, no Scala there
23:02 autrijus although there's Nice
23:02 gaal true, i just looked in the Scala page and thought about it when i saw it targets the jvm
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23:05 autrijus http://opal.cabochon.com/~stevey​/sokoban/docs/article-nice.html # nice read, esp. in light of p6
23:05 autrijus "named and optional parameters -- another reason Java sucks so badly. That's it -- I think I'm switching to Nice."
23:05 gaal python++ # giving us good things to steal
23:06 gaal btw i picked that atricle series up from http://www.livejournal.com/community/evan_tech/ which has lots of goodies.
23:07 autrijus hrm between Scala and Nice, it looks like a lot of foundation-class problem in Perl6 is already solved
23:08 autrijus esp. Scala's traits/roles and Nice's MMD
23:10 autrijus but none of them tackles soft typing. afaics only Boo and VB.Net tackles it, but not as rigorous as I'd like
23:11 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
23:11 putter soft typing?
23:11 autrijus oh, maybe cmucl too. it finally finished installing
23:12 putter sbcl is often a much easier install.
23:12 autrijus putter: a language that starts as a dynamic, very-late-binding setting, but as you provide more type annotations, it gradually become static
23:12 autrijus okay.
23:12 putter ah.
23:12 putter incremental typing.
23:13 autrijus right, aka incremental typing
23:13 gaal http://boo.codehaus.org/Duck+Typing presents it the other way around
23:13 gaal but i guess that doesn't matter much
23:13 autrijus gaal: exactly
23:13 putter gaal++ # interesting shootout, articles
23:13 autrijus "soft" means you can mix libraries with different level of staticness.
23:13 autrijus for example, DBI.pm may be very statically typed, and CGI.pm may be not typed at all.
23:14 putter k
23:14 autrijus while "incremental" emphasises that when one starts coding, one'd like dynamic language's whipuptitude, but as refactoring proceeds, static types gradually become a neccessity
23:15 nothingmuch evening
23:15 * nothingmuch is having trouble
23:15 ayrnieu (Sokoban is pretty fun to implementation, actually.)
23:15 nothingmuch stupid old hardware
23:15 nothingmuch no firwire, no dvd == no way to install OS properly
23:15 ayrnieu s/ion//
23:16 ayrnieu nothingmuch - installing OSX on a mac?  What version OSX?  What model mac?
23:16 nothingmuch tiger
23:16 nothingmuch 1st gen clamshell ibook
23:16 nothingmuch i tried ripping out the DVD from a desktop and putting it into an external HD box
23:16 nothingmuch that has USB
23:16 * gaal needs sleep, badly! --more--
23:16 putter lol.  boo implicit duck typing option... -ducky
23:16 pdcawley geoffb pong
23:16 nothingmuch but that didn't work (i think too little power)
23:17 ayrnieu yay, Tiger.  That's curious, though: I'm sure that my g3 Ruby iMac does not have DVD.  Why do you need that or firewire?
23:17 * pdcawley doubts the necessity for static types...
23:17 nothingmuch i need a dvd because tiger comes in dvd format
23:17 nothingmuch or i could put the target machine in firewire disk mode
23:17 ayrnieu oh, that's a neat change.
23:17 nothingmuch and then install it that way
23:17 autrijus "intercept duck typed method calls using IQuackFu"

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