Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-08-03

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 cybercobra absolute last one - zip (|). does it work like zip() in functional langs?
00:01 buu Hrm. Is there any cool new way to play with indexing in to function returns?
00:01 putter no problem.  I'm doing binary search on program composition with a several minute cycle time.   sigh.   hmm, zip... dont remember, checking...
00:01 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
00:02 Darren_Duncan the tutorial is now just ended
00:02 Darren_Duncan seen ingy
00:02 jabbot Darren_Duncan: ingy was seen 19 minutes 41 seconds ago
00:04 putter err, zip yes, but what is "(|)" ?
00:04 cybercobra putter: the ()s aren't part of the operator
00:04 nnunley2 has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
00:05 cybercobra i was using the parens to indicate the alternate name for the zip op
00:06 iblech cybercobra: Alternate names for zip are Y and ¥, not |, IIRC
00:06 dudley I thought it was ¥
00:06 iblech | is short for any()
00:06 cybercobra iblech: hmm, I guess the periodic table of operators I have is outdated
00:06 ingy Darren_Duncan: ping
00:07 buu Is there any clever perl6 way to turn foo.bar.baz in to foo.bar and .baz ?
00:07 ingy stevan: ping
00:07 sili buu: with?
00:07 dudley An updated periodic table would be pretty cool.
00:07 buu sili: Begone.
00:08 sili with foozle {
00:08 cybercobra putter: but the zip op does work like I thought, correct?
00:08 buu sili: I think you just bang out random unicode operators and one of them will work.
00:10 sili sounds like p6
00:10 buu Yeah.
00:10 putter zip ( 11,21,31 ; 12,22,32; 31,32,33)  it's in S29draft.pod.  I don't know if the usual "what happens if one list is shorter" has been resolved.
00:10 buu I understand perl7 will be nick named APL
00:10 sili i hear perl8 looks like php
00:11 putter oops, zip ( 11,21,31 ; 21,22,23; 31,32,33)
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00:11 putter bah.  yes, the usual. :)
00:12 cybercobra putter: thanks a ton.
00:12 putter ah.  it takes an optional :shortest  to do truncation rather than undef padding.
00:13 putter np. :)
00:16 Darren_Duncan ingy ping
00:16 Darren_Duncan Damian just left after I spoke to him;
00:16 Darren_Duncan I'm in the big room
00:16 Darren_Duncan I also got a description of what you look like from Damian
00:17 Darren_Duncan I'm currently wearing a white iMac shirt and blue jeans, have glasses, and am 6ft tall, no decorations; my backpack has some orange shiny flagging tape on it, and I have an IBook
00:17 putter Sigh.  Just how bad is not saying  is primitive  for a function in the Prelude?  In the presence of  is primitive , the string-flavored macro called by Parser just doesnt work.
00:18 Darren_Duncan big room meaning where evening events are
00:19 iblech putter: (Might be wrong what I say) is primitive causes the sub to not have an own entry in the callstack, i.e. a return will return from the sub executing the primitive instead of the primitive itself
00:19 * putter wonders how long before people get more outlandish to improve visibility... I have the red left sleeve, green right, and checkerboard vest...
00:19 iblech putter: So I think it's ok to omit the is primitive
00:20 dudley putter: I used to have a shirt like that...
00:20 putter iblech: my thanks.
00:21 iblech putter: np. :)
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00:25 Darren_Duncan if anyone is at OSCON, I have held a seat for the main tuesday event in the front row in front of the podium, right of the aisle
00:25 Darren_Duncan come 'n meet
00:26 Darren_Duncan temp signoff to save power now
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Fix lexical stomping in some rare cases (&statement_control:<for> was
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | affected, though...). "But I thought you've already fixed that some revs ago,
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | by backuping lexical vars on subentry and restoring them on subexit, in the
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | &return()-handler?" -- Yes. But the native JavaScript return() was still called
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | in two places, causing the &return()-handler to not be executed causing the
00:26 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | restoring of vars not happen causing many infinite loops when running the
00:27 svnbot6 r6011 | iblech++ | testsuite.  Fixed.
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00:55 ingy grrr
00:56 ingy I think my irssi logging is busted
00:56 ingy can someone email me the interview in the scrollby from earlier?
00:56 ingy [email@hidden.address]
00:56 ingy thanks
00:57 iblech ingy: http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6
00:59 ingy rock
00:59 ingy iblech++
01:03 iblech http://m19s28.vlinux.de/iblech/stuff/not_perm/pil2js-demo/t/smoke.html # New jssmoke, uploading the individual tests in ~~5min
01:03 iblech (4514 test cases: 2764 ok, 1750 failed, 471 todo, 2 skipped and 55 unexpectedly succeeded, 61.23% ok)
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01:39 putter iblech: re smoke, I think there's a p6 version of splice in the PIR prelude.
01:40 iblech putter: ooh! Looking...
01:40 Darren_Duncan back online ... in the front of the main room, anyone can stop by and visit
01:40 Darren_Duncan big talks in 1 hour
01:41 iblech putter: Great! I'll add this to Prelude::JS::Array and see if it passes the tests :)
01:43 putter :)  Which may be the first time it's ever been run... ;)  (my fuzzy recollection is that at the time it was written distinct(?) pir and pugs bugs prevented it being run anywhere)
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01:56 iblech Unfortunately, it seems to infinite loop before the first test result of splice.t is printed
01:57 putter bah.  I'll take a look at it.  I think the pugsbugs which stopped it from running have long been fixed.
01:58 iblech Great, thanks :)
02:00 svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Copied Prelude::PIR's &splice to Prelude::JS::Array and fixed a Perl
02:00 svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ |   5-ism ($array[$idx] instead of @array[$idx]). Doesn't work yet, though.
02:00 svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ | * 19 testfiles: unEVALs or eval -> try. Some tests pass now, because of the
02:00 svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ |   lexicals-in-eval thing. I went through all subdirs of t/, with the exception
02:00 svnbot6 r6012 | iblech++ |   of pugsbugs/ and unspecced/, will probably look into them tomorrow.
02:01 iblech Ok, need to sleep now
02:01 iblech Night all :)
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02:37 cybercobra is there going to be a libpcre for perl6? or is libpcre unofficial?
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02:59 putter iblech: PIR.hs splice now passes splice.t with 2 failures due to want.List being :todo<feature>.
02:59 svnbot6 r6013 | putter++ | src/perl6/Prelude/PIR.pm: splice bugfixes.  iblech++
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03:27 stevan ingy: pingy
03:30 stevan ingy: I am not sure why the movie is not working, I can reproduce the issue here when i download it
03:30 stevan however the original plays fine locally
03:30 stevan I am going to try and zip it and see if that fixes the issue
03:38 stevan ingy: the movie is now zipped on the server
03:38 stevan and downloading it is successfull
03:39 stevan it is kind of rough, I dont have any really good movie editing software
03:39 stevan if you want to remake the animation part, let me know, i will send you the images, and the audio portion as well
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03:45 dudley stevan: It works for me. Good stuff :-)
03:45 dudley stevan++
03:47 dudley I'm just glad my wife didn't hear me laughing at it, she would have mocked me mercilessly for rampant geekitude.
03:47 dudley ;-)
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03:49 stevan dudley: even worse, my wife heard me making it :)
03:50 dudley heh
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03:52 dudley If you had to recommend one book on objects/metaobjects, which would it be? I was considering The Art of the Metaobject Protocol
03:54 dudley bbiab
03:54 stevan dudley: yes, that is the best one so far
03:54 stevan in fact, it is pretty much the only one i have found
03:55 stevan There is another book "Putting MetaClasses to Work"
03:55 stevan but it is not as good as The Art of MOP
03:55 stevan besides Scheme is sooooo much prettier than C++ :)
04:06 dudley That's not saying much :)
04:06 svnbot6 r6014 | Stevan++ | adding The Art of the MetaObject Protocol to the list
04:06 svnbot6 r6015 | putter++ | src/Pugs/Parser.hs: reverted to r6012.  Some experimental changes were unintentionally included in r6013.  Sorry.
04:08 stevan iblech++ # PIL2JS is unstoppable
04:08 cybercobra has left "Leaving"
04:08 stevan iblech: you will need to add details about PIL2JS in the changelog, as I am not sure how much to include
04:10 stevan gaal: ping (how much "complete" is PugsBuild?)
04:13 dudley Goodnight, everybody
04:13 dudley sleep &
04:13 stevan nite dudley
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04:30 stevan putter: please add your Rule work to the Changelog, I am not sure I understand whats going on there :)
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04:47 svnbot6 r6016 | Stevan++ | 6.2.9 changelog ... surely some stuff is missing; autrijus, iblech, gaal and putter please review
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04:57 svnbot6 r6017 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - Method, PrivateMethod and SubMethod are now implemented as closures; not 100% sure where this is going yet, but it is a start
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04:58 putter stevan: nothing worth mentioning.
04:58 putter (re Changelog)
04:59 stevan putter: okay, thanks :)
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05:04 putter stevan: actually... ok, PGE's :words (aka :w) got exposed.  but there are no tests, and while it seemed to work, there also seemed to be some bugs.  on the other hand, it's something folks have expressed interest in having in the past.  so... whatever you think.
05:05 putter on the gripping hand, you probably have to be using parrot HEAD for it to work.  so lets punt until next release, when the parrot/PGE situation is cleaner, and further stuff has been done.
05:06 stevan ok
05:07 Aankhen`` Morning.
05:07 stevan hola Aankhen``
05:07 Aankhen`` stevan :-)
05:07 * Aankhen`` wonders how to unbreak his SVK.
05:08 * Aankhen`` is probably going to end up installing MingW again just to build XML::Xerces... :-\
05:08 Aankhen`` (which is required for SWIG, which is required for building the Perl bindings for Subversion, which is required for SVK)
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05:18 putter ^.^
05:19 putter maze of twisty little passages...
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05:27 gaal stevan: pong
05:27 gaal good morning
05:28 gaal PugsBuild is not complete in the sense that many things should be assimilated into it
05:28 gaal that is, lots of options that were now added ad-hoc to the place that needs them as env vars need to be put there.
05:29 gaal also, eventually it can be nice to have a Configure script that lets a user create their config.yml (or edit one)
05:29 stevan gaal: cool
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05:29 gaal as for correctness: there are still a few rough edges
05:29 gaal for example: make ; make rebuilgs pugs
05:29 gaal twice
05:30 gaal because precompilation isn't smart enough to detect when something's changed or not
05:30 stevan ok, please clarify the changelog then when you have a second
05:30 gaal that may sound not very bad, but consider how often you legitimately want to do make and then some time afterwards make smoke
05:31 gaal also also, the centralized switch of PUGS_BUILD_OPTS doesn't have a rational way of handling array data, for example precompiled_modules
05:31 gaal but it needs to - that's the point.
05:31 gaal OK
05:34 gaal stevan
05:34 Aankhen`` Heh.
05:34 Aankhen`` Connection lost!
05:34 gaal feather needs another alias
05:34 gaal there.is.no etc.
05:36 gaal Aankhen``, huh?
05:37 Aankhen`` stevan has disappeared. :-P
05:37 gaal ah. he must not like build stuff very much :)
05:37 stevan sorry, i am here
05:37 Aankhen`` I wonder why... I thought EVERYONE finds that stuff fascinating. ;-)
05:37 stevan just metamodel-ing
05:38 gaal hey, Stevan, the line about $CALLER::_ is probably a bugfix, no?
05:38 stevan gaal: to be honest, I have no idea
05:38 stevan it seemed like a feature :)
05:38 gaal btw, the movie is unplayable for me too
05:39 gaal oh crap, i gotta vamoose to $work
05:39 stevan gaal: did you download the zip?
05:39 gaal yes
05:39 stevan odd
05:39 stevan I need to install iMovie or something
05:39 svnbot6 r6018 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
05:39 svnbot6 r6018 | Stevan++ | * Perl6::Class now just creates Class objects, no more dispatch handling
05:39 svnbot6 r6018 | Stevan++ | * Perl6::Instance now handles dispatching, and is where most of the p5 suger is
05:39 svnbot6 r6018 | Stevan++ | * removed all "type" checking in attributes, this is not the responsbility of the metamodel
05:39 Aankhen`` stevan++ # Metamodels :-)
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05:39 gaal see y'all later folks &
05:40 Aankhen`` See ya gaal.
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05:46 svnbot6 r6019 | gaal++ | add info about PugsBuild
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06:15 svnbot6 r6020 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
06:15 svnbot6 r6020 | Stevan++ | * removed ->meta calls on the meta class, we now bootstrap the meta-meta
06:15 svnbot6 r6020 | Stevan++ |   class when it is created
06:15 svnbot6 r6020 | Stevan++ | * all metaclass access is now through ::meta() global function
06:17 putter Good night. &
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06:54 ingy stevan: url?
06:56 pdcawley What does PIL stand for?
06:57 QtPlatypus Pugs Intermeadate Langage.
06:57 pdcawley Ta.
06:57 * castaway_ lends QtPlatypus a 'u'
07:02 QtPlatypus Thank u
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07:04 * Aankhen`` lends castaway_ an ewe.
07:05 castaway_ ta ,)
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08:01 nothingmuch morning
08:02 szabgab ha
08:03 szabgab nothingmuch: I will have this lightning talk tomorrow
08:03 szabgab it seems they don't have enough people so they gave me 10 minutes
08:03 nothingmuch eh?
08:03 szabgab do you know the Hebrew name of Pugs ?
08:04 szabgab I am talking about AP4
08:06 nothingmuch פאגס?
08:07 nothingmuch i know you are, but i thought like "i will have this lightnning talk tomorrow"... as opposed to next week?
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08:17 * nothingmuch goes to stage template toolkit and class dbi in the crud arena
08:17 nothingmuch cdbi is bringing weird lookup tables into the ring
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08:32 brentdax Does anyone know if we'll see 6.2.9 tomorrow?
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08:42 szabgab nothingmuch: next week is a regular pm meeting, tomorrow is AP4
08:42 nothingmuch i know =)
08:42 szabgab on the regular pm I talk regular stuff
08:42 szabgab on ap4 I talk light
08:44 szabgab I need to prepare the talk now
08:45 nothingmuch have fun
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09:00 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0]+.[1].+.[2] }
09:00 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:01 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { $_.[0]+$_.[1]+$_.[2] }
09:01 evalbot6 6
09:01 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0]+.[1]+.[2] }
09:01 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:01 dada that's wrong
09:02 pdcawley_ By gum it is too.
09:02 dada pdcawley_: huh?
09:02 pdcawley_ ?eval given((1)) { .length }
09:03 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
09:03 pdcawley_ Wrong.
09:03 dada less wrong, however
09:03 dada ?eval given("hello") { .length }
09:03 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
09:03 pdcawley_ ?eval given({foo => 'bar'}) { .{foo} }
09:03 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:03 dada ?eval given("hello") { $_.length }
09:03 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
09:04 pdcawley_ Looks like it's the brackets...
09:04 dada ?eval given("hello") { $_.chars }
09:04 evalbot6 5
09:04 dada ?eval given("hello") { .chars }
09:04 evalbot6 5
09:04 pdcawley_ ?eval given(-> {'foo'}) {.()}
09:04 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:04 dada brackets and square ones, as in my previous example
09:04 pdcawley_ ?eval given(->{'foo'}) { $_.() }
09:04 evalbot6 'foo'
09:05 pdcawley_ And parentheses.
09:05 dada ?eval given([1,2,3]) { .[0] }
09:05 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:05 dada damn
09:05 pdcawley_ That's a grammar thing.
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09:05 pdcawley_ it's not looking at the value of $_, it's just misparsing before it gets to that.
09:06 * pdcawley_ would write a test, but has a summary to write. And I've finished my cup of tea so I'd better get on.
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09:06 * dada goes testwriting
09:08 nothingmuch templates are either not primitive enough, or too primitive
09:08 * nothingmuch wants a templating module with higher order functions
09:08 nothingmuch where each function is really a template block
09:09 dada that's hot
09:09 dada (higher order template, that is :-)
09:09 nothingmuch because if there is one functional concept that templating should benefit from is combinators
09:09 nothingmuch for example a table combinator
09:09 nothingmuch that takes a templater that templates cells
09:10 nothingmuch and tabular structure
09:10 nothingmuch and then applies the cell template to the elements of the table
09:10 * nothingmuch wonders if there is a templating library in haskell
09:12 Aankhen`` Care to explain what a combinator is?
09:13 pdcawley_ A function that takes functions as an argument and returns a new function?
09:14 pdcawley_ def apply(&f, &g) { sub { &g(&f(*@_)) } } # For instance
09:14 nothingmuch Aankhen``: think map is an example of one
09:14 nothingmuch in this case we're taking an input
09:15 nothingmuch and a function
09:15 nothingmuch and we are creating an output that is constructed by applying the function to the input
09:15 nothingmuch the function cares about the nested elements
09:15 nothingmuch the combinator cares about the structure
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09:16 Aankhen`` Hrm.
09:16 Aankhen`` I see.
09:16 Aankhen`` Wow, I actually do see.
09:16 * Aankhen`` faints.
09:16 pdcawley_ Heh. Have you read Higher Order Perl yet?
09:16 nothingmuch nope
09:16 Aankhen`` Me?
09:16 * pdcawley_ grins at nothingmuch, you probably don't need to.
09:16 Aankhen`` No, I haven't.
09:17 nothingmuch how come?
09:17 nothingmuch i don't really know my stuff =)
09:17 pdcawley_ You should. Good stuff in there on programming perl in a functional style.
09:17 nothingmuch i have other monatary priorities at the moment though =)
09:17 Aankhen`` Will do.
09:17 nothingmuch anyway, @work is being taken out to lunch
09:17 nothingmuch ciao!
09:17 Aankhen`` (I am assuming you are still talking to me)
09:17 pdcawley_ Still lots of value in there even if you do know about higher order functions.
09:18 pdcawley_ Aankhen: Yes.
09:18 pdcawley_ Right, off to finish the summary.
09:18 Aankhen`` See ya.
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10:03 pdcawley Is Thomas Sandlaß in here?
10:15 svnbot6 r6021 | autrijus++ | * .assuming() should support the new pair-first binding semantics too.
10:15 svnbot6 r6022 | autrijus++ | * fix random typo in dollar_underscore.t
10:16 * pdcawley notes that every time he writes the summary he finds himself wanting to shout at TSa...
10:17 GeJ for thread hijacking? isn't this punishable by law?
10:17 GeJ that should be.
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10:18 pdcawley Has anything he's ever said ever cast light on *anything*?
10:18 pdcawley His ability to ignore the wider question in favour of nitpicking the particular example chosen to illustrate it is quite staggering.
10:18 pdcawley And it's not just me he's done it to.
10:34 pdcawley This channel is logged and googlable isn't it?
10:34 svnbot6 r6023 | autrijus++ | * run-smoke.pl assumed everyone was iblech... that's not the case :)
10:35 pdcawley Ah well, I stand by it, even if I wouldn't say it in a summary.
10:35 autrijus :)
10:35 * pdcawley has come damned close on occasion.
10:36 autrijus however, if not for TSa, the warnock rate on p6[lc] will likely double
10:36 * pdcawley giggles.
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10:37 pdcawley <warnocked post>, <Thomas says something>, <No thomas, you're wrong and here's why> And yay, the thread is unwarnocked.
10:37 autrijus yup.
10:37 pdcawley I shall try to look at it that way from now on.
10:37 pdcawley Thank you for your insight.
10:37 autrijus no prob :)
10:37 * autrijus is relenging finally
10:37 autrijus how many hours do we have till ingy's talk?
10:38 pdcawley relenging?
10:38 autrijus release engineering
10:38 pdcawley Ah.
10:38 pdcawley So, how much of his talk do you plan to have outdated by the time he gives it?
10:40 autrijus I don't know, all of it maybe?
10:40 pdcawley Yay!
10:40 autrijus "Seeing that CMU Common Lisp's compiler is called Python, we decide to rename Pugs to Python too"
10:41 autrijus "Unification through renaming"
10:42 pdcawley Yay!
10:42 pdcawley BTW, have you seen the thing I just posted suggesting 'bundle' types?
10:43 pdcawley As a way round the Any|Junction thing.
10:46 autrijus I think the consensus shifted for Any to include Junction now.
10:46 pdcawley But now Array.isa(Single) right?
10:47 pdcawley Which seems odd in its own way.
10:47 autrijus although, Array is not a value type
10:48 autrijus you can't have a value of the type Array.
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10:48 * pdcawley blinks.
10:48 autrijus the basic idea is that the parameter is composed of a container type and a value type
10:48 autrijus container type is currently $ @ %
10:48 pdcawley And a Junction's a value type?
10:48 autrijus I propose & is unified to $
10:49 autrijus yes.
10:49 autrijus a value is either an intrinsic, or an object
10:49 autrijus it's all in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/PIL.hs
10:50 autrijus quite formalized; I'll write up a detailed treatment after the release
10:50 pdcawley I'm failing to see how a junction can be a value type, but an array isn't.
10:50 autrijus okay. a scalar container can hold a junction.
10:50 pdcawley Can't I write: sub foo (Array $ary) {...}
10:50 pdcawley Or isn't that quite the same thing.
10:50 autrijus why, yes, but that means something else
10:50 autrijus it means "Scalar of Ref of Array"
10:50 autrijus just shorthanded
10:51 pdcawley But a Junction isn't a reference type in the same way... okay...
10:51 autrijus yup.
10:51 autrijus you can have "Scalar of Junction".
10:51 autrijus no need to say Ref of.
10:51 autrijus in fact, Ref only points to containers.
10:51 autrijus sometimes constant containers
10:51 autrijus as in "is constant"
10:51 pdcawley Because it needs to do scary implicit things that it can't do when it's isolated behind a reference?
10:51 autrijus but containers nevertheless.
10:52 autrijus no, just because there's no junctive container.
10:52 autrijus there are only three container types in perl6 and that's fixed.
10:52 pdcawley So I can't take a reference to a junction, I take a reference to a scalar that *contains* a junction.
10:52 autrijus yup.
10:52 autrijus and it may be a constant nonrebindable scalar container
10:52 autrijus so it's almost as good as a value
10:52 autrijus but still not quite -- it's always passed by ref
10:53 autrijus instead of values, where you copy the value.
10:53 pdcawley Can I subtype, say Array, and then say that a particular @array uses my subclass as its container?
10:53 autrijus that amounts to tying
10:53 autrijus and yes.
10:53 autrijus so container types must belong two one of the three fundamental interfaces
10:53 autrijus if it conforms to neither, it's not making any sense.
10:53 pdcawley For instance, adding something like the Smalltalk collection hierarchy and using them in @ary things.
10:53 autrijus s/two one/to one/
10:54 autrijus that is fine, but you are then acting on the container level
10:54 autrijus not the value level
10:54 pdcawley Gotcha. And good.
10:54 autrijus so even if you undef @ary, that tie remains
10:54 autrijus yeah, it's all very clean. putter++ iblech++ for forcing this rethink
10:54 pdcawley And anything I put in @ary gets put in my collection.
10:54 autrijus yup.
10:54 pdcawley Until I either untie, or retie.
10:54 autrijus oh. a constant immutable container is different from a value in one very real way
10:55 autrijus that is it has a =:=
10:55 autrijus i.e. unique identity
10:55 pdcawley Useful for hashing, for instance.
10:55 autrijus it never makes sense to test =:= on values.
10:55 autrijus or bind them.
10:55 autrijus S03 makes it quite clear that =:= is operating on the container level.
10:56 autrijus anyway, I'm currently formulating Pair as having the "key" side as a value the "val" side as a container.
10:56 autrijus it is consistent with the S* usage
10:56 pdcawley So, for instance, a Pair doesn't have an id, but the box it's in does.
10:56 autrijus yes.
10:57 pdcawley Doesn't this have problems when the box is a Ref?
10:57 autrijus npe
10:57 pdcawley Because by the sound of it a Ref is a value type, but it seems to make a good deal of sense that it should implement =:=
10:57 autrijus a container of id #123 contains a value of the Ref type
10:57 autrijus if you want to do =:= on that ref, you deref it.
10:57 autrijus ${$ref} =:= ...
10:58 autrijus if you don't then it's testing the outer box.
10:58 autrijus (all this is consistent with perl5.)
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10:58 pdcawley So, we have Scalar<isa Container> -> Ref<isa Value> -> Pair<isa Value>
10:58 pdcawley Or am I missing something?
10:59 autrijus only =:= in perl5 is spelled as overload::AddrRef
10:59 autrijus data Container = Scalar (Cell Scalar)  -- Scalar container
10:59 autrijus a Cell is either Constant or Mutable
10:59 pdcawley Should that really be Scalar<isa Container> -> Ref<isa Value> -> AnonScalar<isa Container> -> Pair<isa Value>
10:59 elmex_ has joined #perl6
11:00 autrijus pdcawley: right, the last formulation is correct.
11:00 autrijus the Anon part doesn't matter
11:00 autrijus Scalar doesn't know if they are anon or not
11:00 autrijus they are always anon, in a sense
11:00 pdcawley Well, no, just for my bookkeeping.
11:00 autrijus the pad binds them to names
11:00 autrijus ah. good. ok
11:00 autrijus and a Value is either intrinsic (ref) or object (Ref)
11:00 autrijus but either way they are not containers.
11:00 pdcawley Which reminds me, are we going to have Symbol as a first class type in Perl?
11:01 autrijus you mean lispish symbols?
11:01 pdcawley Yeah.
11:01 autrijus perl has first-class types
11:01 autrijus which is symbols in two levels
11:01 autrijus one is the
11:01 autrijus ::SymName
11:01 autrijus level
11:01 pdcawley I meant, is a namespace going to be analogous to a hash of strings, or a hash of symbols?
11:01 autrijus one is
11:02 autrijus :(Any $foo) level
11:02 autrijus newtype Pad = MkPad (Map Sym Container)
11:02 autrijus (a Pad is a map from sym to container)
11:02 autrijus data Sym = MkSym { sigil  :: Char , twigil :: Maybe Char , name   :: Name }
11:02 autrijus (a symbol is a type that has sigil, twigil, name parts)
11:02 autrijus newtype Name = MkName { unName :: String }
11:02 autrijus (a name is a tagged string.)
11:03 pdcawley And symbols are unique?
11:03 autrijus they are immutable.
11:03 autrijus hence, unique, in a sense.
11:03 pdcawley So one could potentially write String.intern returns Symbol
11:03 autrijus one could. but I don't know if this is exposed to the language.
11:03 autrijus the runtime is certainly required to support them
11:03 pdcawley And have it return the existing Symbol for that string if it already existed.
11:03 autrijus but I don't know how to expose them.
11:03 autrijus i.e. it never came up. so p6l it :)
11:04 autrijus (it's trivial to expose them from an implementation pov)
11:04 pdcawley It's just that in Ruby there's a good deal of slinging of symbols about the place and it's quite useful. (Not hurt by the fact that they have a handy symbol quoting operator)
11:05 * pdcawley grins, the fun begins if you start mucking about with '$foo with spaces'.intern :)
11:05 pdcawley Perl5 symbol tables are *such* fun.
11:05 autrijus perl usually use constant strings as symbols.
11:05 autrijus I'm not opposed to that, really.
11:06 pdcawley It's just that, if you're slinging symbols around, your equality checks get much cheaper...
11:06 pdcawley (if they're unique symbols that is)
11:06 autrijus well, a good compiler should turn all constant string comparison into integer checks.
11:06 autrijus in fact, I think PIR does that.
11:06 autrijus i.e. it hoists constant strings into the constant segmant
11:06 autrijus *segment
11:07 pdcawley Yeah, but being able to do "string".intern and get a flyweight for slinging around has its virtues even at a language level.
11:08 autrijus I don't dispute that :)
11:08 pdcawley I'll kick something up to p6l later. Need to write the summary.
11:08 autrijus <- wrote enough scheme to appreciate this
11:08 pdcawley I've written very little scheme, but it appeals to me as a language.
11:08 pdcawley The cunning stuff that gets done with symbol properties for instance is both delightful and evil.
11:10 * pdcawley grins. Plus, if it's an exposed class, we can extend it.
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11:11 pdcawley If symbol tables are exposed as using strings, that's less useful/more painful.
11:15 autrijus they can't be less useful
11:15 autrijus since it can do strictly more things
11:16 autrijus but it could be argued that it's more painful
11:16 dada ?eval 1 if 'a' ~~ /a/;
11:16 evalbot6 pugs: src/events.c:270: init_events_first: Assertion `rc == 0' failed.
11:16 pdcawley Actually, they can be less useful, because the variety of things you can do with strings gets in the way of using them effectively as symbols.
11:17 autrijus right but that's still a cognitive overload thing
11:17 autrijus to the type system they are essentially heavily constrained showable stuff.
11:17 dada no rules yes?
11:17 autrijus (and comparable and ordered)
11:17 autrijus dada: not in evalbot
11:17 dada mmm
11:17 autrijus dada: some kind of parrot problems
11:17 pdcawley Are symbols necessarily ordered?
11:17 dada I've downloaded the binary build of pugs, and no rules there too
11:18 pdcawley Because the rules are handled in Parrot.
11:18 pdcawley I think.
11:18 dada but there is a parrot.exe in the distribution
11:18 dada what I get is:
11:18 dada *** Cannot parse PGE: a
11:18 autrijus pdcawley: they are ordered by their hashes
11:18 dada *** Error: invalid argument
11:18 autrijus or addresses
11:18 autrijus at least
11:19 pdcawley What if you do /a/ ~~ 'a'?
11:19 autrijus but yeah, "hashable" is probably a better term
11:19 autrijus dada: you have parrot 0.2.2-release?
11:19 autrijus and pugs 6.2.8-release?
11:19 dada autrijus: no error, but no match either
11:20 autrijus dada: hm.
11:20 dada autrijus: no, I got the nightly build binaries
11:20 autrijus parrot nightly is known to be unsupported by pugs
11:20 autrijus we can only target releases
11:20 autrijus esp. with the huge refactoring going on right now in both sides
11:21 dada ok; so is svn pugs known to be working with parrot 0.2.2-release?
11:21 autrijus yes I think so
11:23 * dada sighs
11:23 autrijus ?eval 'a' ~~ m:P5/a/
11:23 evalbot6 MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 1, matchStr = "a", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
11:23 * dada still has ghc 6.2.2 :-(
11:24 autrijus ?eval m:P5/a/ ~~ 'a'
11:24 evalbot6 MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 1, matchStr = "a", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
11:24 autrijus dada: hm, you can't install 6.4?
11:24 dada autrijus: downloading it now
11:25 autrijus oh ok. there's also 6.4.1-tobe builds as http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/stable/dist/ghc-6.4.1.20050803-i386-unknown-mingw32.tar.gz
11:25 autrijus no function changes, just some speedups and less "impossible" bugs
11:25 dada autrijus: I can only target releases :-)
11:25 autrijus lol.
11:25 autrijus note that neither parrot nor pugs has a "-stable" branch :)
11:27 dada so, while I take the time to configure my system to be able to do some testing, I have a bug for you:
11:28 dada ?eval given('hello') { .chars }
11:28 evalbot6 5
11:28 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .length }
11:28 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&length"
11:28 dada oops
11:28 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .elems }
11:28 evalbot6 3
11:28 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { .[0] }
11:28 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
11:28 pdcawley Did you write the tests yet?
11:29 dada pdcawley: still downloading the latest ghc to build the latest pugs :-)
11:29 pdcawley Not got a feather account?
11:29 dada nope
11:29 autrijus dada: nod, prefix .[] is known to be missing. grep for a test or write a new one as :todo<feature>
11:29 pdcawley ?eval given({foo => 'bar'}) { .{'foo'} }
11:29 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
11:29 autrijus it's a parser thing
11:30 pdcawley and .() fails too.
11:30 dada autrijus: yes, I meant to show the bug in the parser
11:30 dada ?eval given((1,2,3)) { $_.[0] }
11:30 evalbot6 \1
11:30 autrijus nod
11:30 autrijus tests welcome
11:30 dada they're coming
11:31 dada ...slowly
11:31 autrijus brb
11:32 pdcawley seen brentdax?
11:32 jabbot pdcawley: brentdax was seen 3 hours 49 seconds ago
11:33 pdcawley Brent, if you're there, I've forgotten whether you prefer to go by Brent Dax or Brent Royal-Gordon in the summaries.
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11:41 dada pdcawley: can you tell me more about these feather accounts? :-)
11:42 coral "This week's summary by Brent 'Dax' Royal-Gordo"
11:42 coral from google
11:42 pdcawley Don't ask me, ask Juerd.
11:42 pdcawley google feather.perl6.nl for pointers.
11:43 pdcawley I'm damned if I'm typing the whole lot out :)
11:43 pdcawley re Brent's handle.
11:43 pdcawley Maybe I should promote him to the ranks of the mononyms.
11:43 coral in 2002 he was just Brent Dax
11:44 dada seen Juerd?
11:44 jabbot dada: Juerd was seen 4 days 13 hours 34 minutes 19 seconds ago
11:44 * pdcawley grins, 'Brent Royal-Gordon née Dax' is probably laying it on a bit thick.
11:45 shapr has joined #perl6
11:45 coral heh
11:45 coral perfect
11:46 pdcawley That should be (née Dax) shouldn't it?
11:46 * pdcawley wishes he could see Brent's face when he scrolls back though the log.
11:53 rafl Is 6.2.9 already released?
11:54 iblech has joined #perl6
11:56 coral by topic, no?
11:57 * rafl only looked at the changelog.
11:58 castaway dada: [email@hidden.address] :)
11:58 castaway Send name, email address and say "make me a feature account please"
11:59 castaway umm, "feather"
11:59 dudley dada: But I think Juerd was going on vacation for a while
12:01 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
12:04 iblech putter++ # Implemented &splice in Perl 6, passes tests! Thanks very much :)
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12:19 svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Array: Copied putter++'s &splice from Prelude::PIR --
12:19 svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ |   passes tests, thanks :)
12:19 svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ | * util/yaml_harness.pl, util/run-smoke.pl: Made it completely work again,
12:19 svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ |   normal smoke tests ext/ again, jssmoke does not.
12:19 svnbot6 r6024 | iblech++ | * Makefile.PL: Added jssmoke target.
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12:36 Limbic_Region seen autrijus
12:36 jabbot Limbic_Region: autrijus was seen 1 hours 5 minutes ago
12:36 Limbic_Region autrijus ping
12:39 Limbic_Region autrijus - I assume you will backlog.  Please read http://use.perl.org/~Limbic%20Region/journal/26062 and tell me if there is anything you want to change or if you would rather I delete the entry all together.  I forgot to ask the obvious question - if someone is interested in funding, what should they do?
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12:52 pdcawley autrijus: Just a thought, under what you were saying about container types, @foo := $foo is illegal right?
12:58 * pdcawley reads to the end of the thread and attempts to unask the question.
13:03 szabgab beginners help, how do you translate this P5 regex: /^P.*/  ?
13:03 Limbic_Region szabgab - you don't have to if you don't want to
13:03 szabgab but I would like to :-)
13:04 Limbic_Region p5 regexen still work
13:04 pdcawley No translation needed.
13:04 szabgab I am preparing a talk on the ^P.* languages
13:04 Limbic_Region oh - well, if you really want to make a rule there are plenty of examples
13:04 pdcawley just do /^P.*/, it's a perfectly legal Perl 6 rule.
13:04 szabgab and want to tell the crowd to find nothingmuch (and maybe gaal if he also comes)
13:05 Limbic_Region right s/a rule/a named rule/
13:05 szabgab ok, I can live with the old school, but actually I already have that on my first slide
13:06 szabgab on the last one I'd rather put something else
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13:10 svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ | PIL2JS:
13:10 svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ |   * try { die "hi" }; say $! outputs "hi" now, not "hi at foo.p6...".
13:10 svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ |   * die/warn without parameters output the standard message now.
13:10 svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ |     try { die $some_object }; # $some_object is still an object now, not some
13:10 svnbot6 r6025 | iblech++ |     stringification. die.t passes 4/4 now. :)
13:11 szabgab The slides are at http://www.szabgab.com/talks/p_on_ap4.pdf and http://www.szabgab.com/talks/p_on_ap4.sxi if anyone has a few minutes to waste from his life
13:14 autrijus Limbic_Region: obviously, that someone should mail me :)
13:15 autrijus or /msg me
13:15 autrijus or talk to me here in #perl6.
13:16 autrijus Limbic_Region: annotate " the way TPF grants currently work " with ", namely having fixed delivery goals and timelines
13:17 autrijus 'cuz there's nothing specific about TPF here :)
13:18 autrijus pdcawley: yes, it's completely illegal.
13:18 autrijus $foo := @foo; # this works, rather inconsistently, as ($foo := \@foo)
13:18 autrijus but that's due to a larry ruling more than anything else.
13:19 pdcawley ISTM that the tricky bit's going to be doing @array := @array[<whatever the slice syntax is this week>]
13:20 autrijus that is not a problem; note that array containers contains scalar containers, not values
13:20 pdcawley Oh yeah.
13:20 pdcawley So your bound array will be an array of the containers found by the slice.
13:20 autrijus yes.
13:21 autrijus that's why it's called arrays, instead not lists (which contains values not containers.)
13:21 autrijus s/which contains/which has/
13:22 pdcawley Ever since I started to grok list, I've always thought that 'list' implies 'linked list of pairs'
13:22 pdcawley s:first/list/lisp/
13:22 autrijus indeed. but in perl6 they really mean "tuple".
13:22 autrijus n-tuple, that is
13:22 autrijus but each element in the tuple may also be a generator, further complicating the issue.
13:23 autrijus it's a mess :)
13:23 pdcawley Yeah... making streams be transparent is... um...
13:23 autrijus (but at least a understandable mess)
13:23 * pdcawley grins, so long as it's an implementable mess.
13:24 pdcawley Oh yes, it's been a while since I asked, but does &?CALLER_CONTINUATION return a full continuation yet?
13:24 autrijus yeah, you end up with the real list values accessible only via .spec
13:24 autrijus sure oit is :)
13:24 autrijus sorry, lagged
13:25 autrijus $?CALLER_CONTINUATION will return a full cont in the new runcore.
13:25 pdcawley Which will be along when it's along.
13:25 autrijus that is, at least a couple weeks away before you can write it profitably.
13:25 autrijus yes.
13:25 integral until then t/unspeced/cont.t shows some things are working though
13:25 pdcawley And: Hurrah!
13:25 autrijus although this time it's a second-system, which means it'll be much more robust :)
13:26 * autrijus shudders to think about the horribly VList and ClassTree hacks in the old runcore.
13:26 pdcawley It's not a second system, you've just thrown the spike away.
13:27 autrijus true.
13:27 svnbot6 r6026 | fglock++ | * Spans of Recurrences now iterate correctly in Set::Infinite
13:27 autrijus replacing it with a larger spike.
13:28 pdcawley At least you can carry over the tests :)
13:28 mjl69 has joined #perl6
13:28 pdcawley Better than your average spike.
13:29 scook0 isn't Pugs just one big spike? :-)
13:29 autrijus yup :)
13:29 scook0 for the second-system that is P6
13:30 autrijus p6 is third system already
13:30 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
13:30 pdcawley Okay, so the first runcore was a subspike.
13:31 autrijus it's spikes all the way down.
13:31 pdcawley Nah, I don't think we need to throw Perl 5 away.
13:31 pdcawley Actually, if it's a spike on a spike it's a superspike isn't it?
13:32 autrijus Warte nur, balde ruhest du auch :)
13:33 pdcawley wossat?
13:33 autrijus (translation: things will be thrown away when it's time, including p5 and p6)
13:33 scook0 autrijus: about the semantics of Cell/Box:
13:33 stevan morning all
13:34 QtPlatypus I'm unsure if p5 will go away, Its possable that p5 and p6 have diffrent niches.
13:34 autrijus it's a Goethe poem; "Wandrers Nachtlied II" or something
13:34 scook0 does replacing the Box in a mutable cell constitute binding, or assignment? or something else?
13:34 scook0 (this is what I was trying to ask yesterday)
13:34 autrijus scook0: yes, that is exactly what binding means.
13:35 stevan ingy: ping
13:35 autrijus assignment is changing the boxVal
13:35 autrijus (if not tied)
13:35 autrijus but preserving the boxId.
13:36 autrijus stevan: I can't see your movie either
13:36 stevan ahhh
13:36 autrijus even with the new QuickTime-win32
13:36 stevan dudley could see it
13:36 scook0 does this mean that each symbol (in the Pad) has its own unique Container/Cell?
13:36 stevan dudley: ping
13:36 dudley stevan: pong
13:37 scook0 (i.e. they're not shared between symbols)
13:37 autrijus scook0: yes, that's exactly it.
13:37 stevan dudley: what OS were you on? when you could see the movie
13:37 autrijus but otoh, neither of them is mutable anyway. the mutable bit is the box and tiedness.
13:37 dudley MacOS 10.4.2
13:37 autrijus so "not shared" and "shared" means little
13:37 stevan ah... ok I think that is what Ingy is on, so hopefully it will work for him
13:37 stevan dudley: thanks
13:37 dudley np
13:37 autrijus but I want to see the movie :)
13:38 pdcawley Well, unless they're bound...
13:38 stevan autrijus: I will see what I can do :)
13:38 * stevan didnt really want to $work anyway ;)
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13:39 autrijus pdcawley: bound means having the same box, not the same container cell
13:39 autrijus pdcawley: this is PIL internals, not exposed to p6 :)
13:39 pdcawley Ah. Gotcha.
13:40 pdcawley I'll go back in my box shall I?
13:40 Limbic_Region autrijus - I am on it
13:40 autrijus only if you feel like to..
13:41 autrijus Limbic_Region: cool, thanks
13:44 Limbic_Region autrijus - WRT what to do if someone wants to fund - I have tentatively added this:  or now email - things may change but if they do I will post about that myself.
13:44 coral morning, autrijus
13:44 autrijus sure.
13:45 Limbic_Region done
13:45 * Limbic_Region goes back to being a lurker
13:46 autrijus Limbic_Region++
13:46 stevan Limbic_Region++ # I have to concur
13:46 autrijus so how many hours till ingy's on air?
13:47 stevan it is about 7 AM on the west coast I think
13:47 autrijus ok, we have 5 hours
13:47 * autrijus goes back fixing the 15 remaining subtest fails
13:48 scook0 autrijus: thanks for your time.  see y'all later.
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13:50 svnbot6 r6027 | autrijus++ | * As a special form, `do {STMT}` is taken as `do STMT`.
13:59 Aankhen`` pdcawley++ # mutual appreciation of TSa
13:59 svnbot6 r6028 | rafl++ | * Added debian/pugs-modules.install
13:59 svnbot6 r6028 | rafl++ | * Changed maintainer address (mookooh.org is dead).
13:59 svnbot6 r6028 | rafl++ | * Bumped up version to 6.2.9-1.
14:07 vel has joined #perl6
14:15 gaal|work has joined #perl6
14:15 svnbot6 r6029 | autrijus++ | * first batch of TODOify for this release.
14:15 svnbot6 r6030 | fglock++ | * added method negate() in Recurrence.pm
14:17 svnbot6 r6031 | autrijus++ | * second batch of TODOify
14:17 svnbot6 r6031 | autrijus++ | * hash_access_interpolation.t is mistesting, but still points to a real
14:17 svnbot6 r6031 | autrijus++ |   parsing bug. fixing...
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ |   * PIL2JS.js: Fixed display of native JS exceptions.
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ |   * New Prelude::JS::Context: Added stub &scalar and &list.
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ |   * New Prelude::JS::Math:    Added &pi, &atan (with one and two args), &sin,
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ |     &cos, &tan, &asin, and &acos.
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Array: Added &reverse (but doesn't use context yet).
14:32 svnbot6 r6032 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/math/trig.t: Added TODO feature tests for &asin and &acos.
14:44 ingy hola
14:45 Limbic_Region como esta ustede?
14:45 ingy 3 hours, 50 minutes until show time
14:45 Limbic_Region que bueno
14:45 ingy autrijus: Q: what pugs hackathons have you been to?
14:46 autrijus ingy: the .au one with leo+chip and the .ca one with lots of people
14:46 autrijus ingy: ~50 minutes till 6.2.9-release
14:47 autrijus my local copy should be passing all the test now, so entering preflight anytime
14:47 autrijus iblech: you up for updating ChangeLog so it's less ambiguous about js?
14:47 ingy yay
14:47 ingy autrijus: you forget the first one!
14:48 autrijus first one?
14:48 ingy taipei
14:48 autrijus oh. you were there too so that goes w/o saying :)
14:48 ingy well I was at .ca too :p
14:49 autrijus right.
14:49 ingy ok, go release pugs
14:49 autrijus although working on perldoc instead :)
14:49 autrijus I wasn't at the .il one, though.
14:49 ingy when was .il?
14:49 mjl69 is that what brian d foy was referring to in his perlcast interview when he said a bunch of guys in a room furiously working on laptops at yapc?  The Real Programmers.
14:49 iblech autrijus: Yep, currently resmoking
14:49 autrijus mjl69: likely
14:50 autrijus iblech: cool, and thanks for catching my misfix to runsmoke
14:50 iblech autrijus: Will need ~~27min
14:50 autrijus that's fine
14:50 iblech My bad for breaking it the first time...
14:50 mjl69 (perl audio interviews)++
14:50 autrijus I fixed a parser bug that should affect you as well
14:50 iblech The do { STMTS } thing?
14:51 autrijus no, "<%h<1>>" was mismarsed as "<" ~ %h{'1>'}
14:51 autrijus retesting, about to commit, but that should only affect two subtests, doesn't affect percentage much
14:51 vel has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
14:51 iblech Ah, ok.
14:55 svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/strings/length.t: Use for with n-ary block instead of split.
14:55 svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ |   Doesn't affect normal Pugs (still passes 31/31).
14:55 svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
14:55 svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ |   * PIL::Parser, PIL: Fixed parsing and quoting of >255 chars.
14:55 svnbot6 r6033 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Str: Stubbed &bytes, &codes, and &graphs.
14:55 svnbot6 r6034 | autrijus++ | * <...> and <<...>> was globbing whitespaces after them,
14:55 svnbot6 r6034 | autrijus++ |   even when interpolated as hash subscripts.
14:55 svnbot6 r6034 | autrijus++ | * also, "%h<x>>" was misparsed as "%h{'x>'}".
14:57 putter has joined #perl6
14:58 putter dada: my (very very likely wrong) fuzzy recollection is the PGE error you described can be caused by parrot not being found due to PATH not being setup properly.
14:59 * pdcawley_ grins at Aankhen. We love everybody!
15:01 stevan ingy: ping
15:01 xinming has quit IRC ("I really love GNU")
15:02 dada putter: I installed the pugs binary (which includes parrot.exe) in C:\pugs and added C:\pugs to the PATH, so parrot.exe is there
15:06 putter szabgab: p5's /^P.*/ , aka /^P.*/s, is p6's rx:perl5/^P.*/ or rx/^P.*/ .  No change.  p5's /^P.*/m is p6's rx:perl5/(?m)^P.*/ or rx/^^P\N*/ .
15:08 putter dada: ah well, sorry.   We should collect a list of error messages and what they mean in INSTALL.
15:09 ingy stevan: pong
15:09 stevan ingy: movie work for you?
15:09 autrijus resmoking r6035 for a final round before preflight
15:09 ingy can someone find me a Lambda Camels group photo
15:09 ingy stevan: kind of I think
15:09 stevan ingy: kind of?
15:09 autrijus ingy: type
15:10 autrijus /who #perl6
15:10 ingy stevan: is it supposed to be moving or stop animation?
15:10 autrijus and take a screenshot
15:10 autrijus group photo for you
15:10 stevan ingy: 2 seconds each frame
15:10 ingy stevan: ok, then yes.
15:10 autrijus or take a screenshot of pugs/AUTHORS
15:10 stevan autrijus: :)
15:10 ingy I had various tech probelms
15:10 ingy with the movie
15:10 stevan ingy: if you want I can send you the frames as well as the audio
15:11 stevan audio is in WAV and frames are JPEG
15:11 ingy stevan: no, it's cool
15:11 autrijus the frames in jpeg?
15:11 ingy I'll make it work
15:11 stevan ok
15:11 autrijus stevan: bzip2 that and put it somewhere I can download?
15:11 stevan autrijus: sure
15:11 autrijus I can put it back into a more workable format :)
15:11 * nothingmuch sighs
15:11 stevan excellent
15:11 nothingmuch and says hi
15:11 putter szabgab: re ap4, on page "Ruby" the image obscures text (... commun<clip>) in my browser.
15:11 autrijus avidemux2++
15:11 autrijus and this sorenson squeezeit thing isn't bad either
15:16 putter szabgab: also clipping on slide-just-before-references.  in references, pugscode link is a different color than rest (not link?).
15:16 svnbot6 r6035 | autrijus++ | * recover the lexemeness of adverbian pairs.
15:16 orafu has joined #perl6
15:18 stevan hey nothingmuch
15:18 putter szabgab: might also mention possibility of language implementations written in p6.  thus being supported on all pugs backends (parrot, javascript, etc).
15:18 nothingmuch hola
15:20 beckheng has left
15:21 ingy yo autrijus
15:21 saorge has joined #perl6
15:21 stevan autrijus: is tar.gz okay?
15:21 svnbot6 r6036 | iblech++ | * ChangeLog: PIL2JS passes 64.00%. :)
15:21 svnbot6 r6036 | iblech++ | * docs/talks/README: Linked to PDF version of my talk
15:21 svnbot6 r6036 | iblech++ |   "Anatomie eines Compilers am Beispiel von Pugs";
15:21 putter dada: ah, when its a PATH problem, that explanation follows the Cannot parse PGE.
15:21 autrijus stevan: sure, fine
15:21 autrijus ingy: yes?
15:22 ingy autrijus: I need to come clean with you
15:22 autrijus ingy: what did you do to me?
15:22 ingy I need to publically forgive you
15:22 autrijus ok... how did I offend you in the first place?
15:22 ingy FOR JOURNALING ALL MY FRICKIN TALK MATERIAL YESTERDAY!!!
15:22 ingy ;)
15:23 autrijus eh, you know that #perl6 is all logged anyway :)
15:23 autrijus but sure, go ahead and forgive me...
15:23 ingy sure, but not broadcast to the world!
15:23 ingy autrijus: *smooch*
15:23 nothingmuch ingy: good luck
15:23 ingy hi nothingmuch!
15:24 autrijus ingy: alright. according to larry I'm just not good at Stealth... need to tell me to not broadcast something beforehand
15:24 stevan autrijus: uploading to feather right now, I will let you know when it is there
15:24 autrijus ingy: but I'm glad you plan to forgive me
15:25 ingy autrijus: :) it just makes it more of a challenge for me
15:25 ingy which is a good thing :D
15:25 autrijus riiight.
15:25 autrijus you'll get 1)more audience and 2)audience who has higher expectation
15:25 ingy now I reeeeally need to forgive you :p
15:26 autrijus stevan: sure, or just add the link to the movie page in the kwiki
15:26 autrijus either way's fine
15:26 stevan autrijus: will do
15:26 stevan ingy: I thought people came to your talks to see you, not to hear you :P
15:27 autrijus I have to concur
15:27 iblech autrijus: http://linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-svngraph-6.2.9.png http://linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-pil2js-smoke-6.2.9.html
15:27 autrijus iblech: roger, thanks
15:27 autrijus "2878 ok" in a week
15:28 * autrijus is still very impressed
15:28 ingy stevan: good point
15:28 ingy autrijus: where is your picture in the mirror?
15:28 stevan autrijus: http://no.perlcabal.org/~stevan/GonzoMovie.tar.gz
15:28 stevan also linked on the kwiki
15:28 ingy your canonical one
15:28 autrijus stevan: how did you find no.perlcabal.org the domain name? :)
15:28 autrijus ingy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autrijus_Tang
15:29 autrijus click on the picture
15:29 stevan I just copied your URL  I think
15:29 autrijus hm.
15:29 ingy autrijus: go it
15:29 autrijus ingy: so did you choose the .mp4 version of my movie?
15:29 ingy got it
15:29 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
15:30 ingy autrijus: yes
15:30 autrijus good
15:30 autrijus I'll mp4ize stevan's one shortly if I got around to it
15:30 ingy I hacked Kwiki/Spork to display it inside the slide
15:30 ingy but stevan's movie wouldn't work that way
15:30 ingy :\
15:30 ingy So I run it in separate quicktime
15:31 ingy autrijus: oh nice!!
15:31 autrijus and maybe subtitle it
15:31 ingy no need, but sure
15:31 autrijus ok, I won't bother then
15:31 putter so, we are in preflight testing?
15:32 autrijus putter: almost
15:32 autrijus a preflight tarball will be up in ~15 mins
15:32 stevan autrijus: BTW - the audio is timed for 2 seconds each frame
15:33 autrijus stevan: intentional?
15:33 stevan sort of :)
15:33 autrijus ok :)
15:33 stevan happy accident :)
15:35 * autrijus tries to focus a bit more, with "coding music"
15:35 autrijus o/~ For God wrote in Lisp code / When he filled the leaves with green. / The fractal flowers and recursive roots: / The most lovely hack I've seen. o/~
15:37 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
15:37 svnbot6 r6037 | autrijus++ | * redo.t: unTODO an unexpected passing
15:37 autrijus hey Darren_Duncan. having fun?
15:38 Darren_Duncan yes, the morning OSCON keynote just started, Nat Torkington is on stage
15:38 Darren_Duncan Larry's onion was last night, and Damian's dead languages
15:38 Darren_Duncan all good stuff
15:39 Darren_Duncan last night, Larry's family was in attendence, and I had a chat with both him and them
15:39 QtPlatypus Darren_Duncan: Is the Onion on the web somewhere?
15:39 Darren_Duncan Larry's talk had lots of great art in his slides, and they were drawn by his daughter
15:40 Darren_Duncan partly on my suggestion, she will be posting them on her website soon
15:40 Darren_Duncan I don't know if its on the web
15:40 Darren_Duncan I know that Damian's won't be
15:40 Darren_Duncan Larry's talk was mainly about secret agents
15:41 Darren_Duncan comparing 16 different personalities with Perl community personalities
15:41 autrijus what does "Capacity" mean anyway?
15:41 Limbic_Region my drill instructors thought it was great fun in boot cammp
15:41 Darren_Duncan Larry explicitly mentioned you in the talk also
15:41 QtPlatypus autrijus: In what context?
15:41 autrijus QtPlatypus: in the larry context ;)
15:41 Darren_Duncan I mean, mentioned Autrijus
15:41 Darren_Duncan in regards to Pugs
15:41 autrijus I'm supposed to be the agent with Stealth:1, Combat:4, Capacity:2
15:42 Darren_Duncan but maybe also with one of the personalities
15:42 Darren_Duncan so you saw the details somewhere?
15:42 QtPlatypus autrijus: Means how much you can carry.
15:42 autrijus Darren_Duncan: in #oscon
15:42 Darren_Duncan I see
15:42 QtPlatypus I'm guessing.  It looks RPGish.
15:42 autrijus QtPlatypus: oh. ah. as in lbs
15:42 Darren_Duncan never been there
15:42 Darren_Duncan is it on freenode?
15:42 autrijus no, on magnet I think
15:42 autrijus irc.perl.org
15:43 Darren_Duncan okay, will look in there ...
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15:55 putter hmm... so what happend around day 120?  (re commit graph http://linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-svngraph-6.2.9.png )
15:56 coral 6.2.9 out?
15:56 autrijus uploading
15:56 coral unf
15:56 coral autrijus++
15:56 autrijus (preflight 1, that is)
15:57 gaal|work heya
15:57 autrijus hey gaal|work!
15:57 * gaal|work interviewed 3,000 candidates today
15:58 gaal|work with no voice :)
15:58 autrijus !
15:58 gaal|work ooh preflihgt!
15:58 gaal|work preflight even
15:58 gaal|work okay, fewer than 3,000
15:58 Darren_Duncan I can help with the preflight
15:59 gaal|work sure did feel like it though
15:59 autrijus http://pugscode.org/tmp/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.9-pre1.tar.gz
15:59 Limbic_Region what rev is that autrijus?
15:59 autrijus 1440991 bytes md5=527ea84fc880528d3369d4fe29122dfa
15:59 Darren_Duncan oh that; I just did a svn up
15:59 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
15:59 * Limbic_Region will likely only be able to do 1 make test given how slow this maching is
15:59 * gaal|work catches ride home and will start smoking in ~45 min - if there's still anything to smoke :
15:59 autrijus Limbic_Region: a future revision
15:59 autrijus hadn't committed thing back
15:59 autrijus will do now
15:59 gaal|work later &
16:00 gaal|work has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
16:00 * Limbic_Region waits
16:00 autrijus Limbic_Region: er, please use the tarball :)
16:00 autrijus unless you for some reason can't download that
16:02 rafl autrijus: *** Cannot find a runnable 'ghc' from path. - I have /usr/bin/ghc -> /etc/alternatives/ghc -> /usr/lib/ghc-6.4/bin/ghc -> ghc-6.4
16:02 Limbic_Region not that autrijus
16:02 autrijus rafl: and /usr/bin is in path?
16:02 Limbic_Region just won't be finished compiling before everyone else says they are done make test
16:02 autrijus rafl: oh ok.
16:03 * Limbic_Region downloaded it though anyway and is beginning make
16:03 putter is pre1 basically r6037?  (if so, I'll leave a test run going...)
16:03 Darren_Duncan downloading
16:03 rafl autrijus: Sure, it is.
16:03 jp-autark I can smoke some too
16:03 autrijus rafl: hm. have some time to trace it into inc/Module/Install/Can.pm's can_run ?
16:04 perlbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:04 rafl autrijus: OK.
16:04 autrijus putter: no, it's not, I havn't committed the changes back
16:04 autrijus I'm on win32, takes some time
16:04 putter ah.  ok.
16:04 Darren_Duncan lots of bandwidth competition here, so dl is 2-4K/sec
16:04 autrijus it just gone blue screened on me, and I aborted chkdsk, so it's behaving weirdly
16:05 Limbic_Region the download shouldn't be a problem - it is still relatively small
16:05 Limbic_Region my problem is having only 256MB of ram on this machine and having to compete for resources
16:06 Darren_Duncan indeed
16:06 Darren_Duncan its already half done
16:07 Darren_Duncan I'm also plugged into power, so all the disk access to compile shouldn't cause problem
16:10 autrijus ok, pre1 is now 6039.
16:10 svnbot6 r6038 | autrijus++ | * fix the Set/Span tests to mention -Inf not -Infinity
16:10 svnbot6 r6039 | autrijus++ | * bump versions; add config.yml to MANIFEST.SKIP
16:10 autrijus I'm smoking the same tarball on win32
16:10 rafl autrijus: Somehow $ENV{PATH} only contains '.'.. echo $PATH on the shell gives me: /home/rafl/.local/bin:/home/rafl/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb:/usr/local/bin
16:10 autrijus (already did fbsd)
16:10 autrijus rafl: hm. I don't think I reset PATH
16:10 autrijus is it like that for all perl programs?
16:11 autrijus trace Makefile.PL for how
16:11 Darren_Duncan should I re-get preflight now?
16:11 Darren_Duncan my last download almost finished
16:11 Limbic_Region autrijus - is 6039 preflight or are there still more changes coming?
16:11 autrijus Darren_Duncan: no, same thing
16:11 perlbot has joined #perl6
16:11 autrijus Limbic_Region: pre1 =:= r6039
16:11 Limbic_Region ok - will be faster to abort and svn up
16:11 rafl autrijus: Even perl -le 'print $ENV{PATH}' outputs nothing.. Hrm...
16:12 autrijus rafl: not likely to be my side of problem then
16:13 Darren_Duncan were there several pre1, or only 1 version of pre1?
16:13 Limbic_Region Darren_Duncan - it was faster for autrijus to post the tarball for pre1 then it was for the commits to show up in the repository
16:13 Limbic_Region there is only 1 - available as 6039 or from the link
16:14 rafl autrijus: Of course. That scares me nonetheless.
16:14 Limbic_Region though when I svn up'd, I got 6040
16:14 Darren_Duncan okay
16:14 Darren_Duncan its untarred, now making ...
16:15 autrijus Limbic_Region: r6040 won't affect test results
16:15 svnbot6 r6040 | qtplatypus++ | Renaming rx_grammar.pl to rx_grammar.pm
16:16 Darren_Duncan actuallly, I'm not sure my ghc was installed properly ... can't find on path
16:16 Darren_Duncan but I thought I did it the same way as before
16:16 Darren_Duncan ran the package installer for Mac OS X 10.3
16:16 autrijus Darren_Duncan: maybe /usr/local/bin isn't in your path
16:17 Darren_Duncan I haven't changed the path from how Mac OS X defaults it
16:17 autrijus right, which did not include /usr/local/bin
16:17 autrijus I think.
16:18 * QtPlatypus nods "Yep, thats the first thing I had to fix when dealing with OSX"
16:18 Darren_Duncan quick question: what command to add to my path?
16:19 autrijus export PATH=$PATH:/usr/local/bin
16:19 autrijus setenv PATH $PATH:/usr/local/bin
16:19 autrijus one of the two
16:19 perlbot has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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16:20 autrijus if you feel like, you can add a probe for this in Makefile.PL and suggest people do the right thing -- or silently fix it for them -- but that may be too clever.
16:20 QtPlatypus autrijus: I think silently fixing it for them would be rude.
16:20 Darren_Duncan the first line seems to have worked, thanks
16:21 autrijus QtPlatypus: right. so fatal warning maybe
16:21 autrijus s/warning/error/
16:21 * Limbic_Region begins nmake test on 6040
16:21 Darren_Duncan better to just spit out a "you need to do this first" message, and change nothing
16:21 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
16:22 Darren_Duncan now on 'make'
16:24 Limbic_Region autrijus - looks like I failed test 55 of io
16:24 autrijus Limbic_Region: looks like I just skipped it for you
16:24 autrijus r6041
16:24 Limbic_Region k
16:24 Limbic_Region won't re-run if that's all that changed
16:27 Aankhen`` Hmm.
16:27 svnbot6 r6041 | autrijus++ | * unlink() in t/builtins/io/io.t gets platform-specific failures; skip for now.
16:27 Aankhen`` gaal: You on Win32?
16:27 jp-autark smoke of pre1: http://home.ifi.uio.no/~davidra/smoke.html
16:27 Darren_Duncan I think I'll just work with the svn instead of the tarball
16:27 Darren_Duncan its a fresh upload anyway
16:27 Darren_Duncan reintegrating fixes is faster
16:27 sili has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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16:29 Limbic_Region odd - wonder why it said "skipped - rules support seems to be missing"
16:29 Limbic_Region for t/builtins/undef that is
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16:35 putter undef.t apparently tests some undef-related aspects of rules.  curious.  "skipped..." means "a" ~~ /a/ didn't match.
16:35 svnbot6 r6042 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5)
16:35 svnbot6 r6042 | Stevan++ | * unify the storage of the metaclasses by moving it
16:35 svnbot6 r6042 | Stevan++ |   into the BUILD submethod of Perl6::MetaClass
16:37 Limbic_Region putter - it is the message that I found curious, as I have a parrot.exe in my path - though not latest/greatest
16:37 * Limbic_Region is in t/packages now
16:37 Limbic_Region so far only 1 failure (now skipped) and 1 weird skipped message
16:37 Darren_Duncan I'm now just testing against the svn rather than the tarball, currently on 'make'
16:37 Darren_Duncan but the svn is clean
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16:41 putter Limbic_Region: in interactive ./pugs , does "a" ~~ /a/ succeed?
16:41 gaal rehi
16:41 Limbic_Region putter - can't tell ATM as I don't really want to take away from the already limited resources
16:42 putter ;)
16:42 gaal what's smokin'?
16:42 putter groan
16:42 Khisanth gaal: your dinner!
16:42 Limbic_Region I did get a couple "useless use of a constant in void context" in t/pugsrun/ uppercase c - though no outright failures
16:42 putter pre1 aka r... something
16:42 gaal no, it's nm that burns pizzas :)
16:43 gaal pf1?
16:43 Limbic_Region got a no subroutine found in uppercase m (again, no failur just a message)
16:43 Aankhen`` gaal: Ping!
16:43 Limbic_Region I got another rules skipped message in t/rules (but for only 1 test, the rest ran)
16:43 gaal heya! :)
16:43 Aankhen`` May I PM you?
16:43 gaal PM me?
16:44 gaal what's that?
16:44 Limbic_Region private message
16:44 Limbic_Region as in /msg
16:44 gaal of course
16:44 Aankhen`` Indeed.
16:44 putter ok, I have a pre1 failure in t/unspecced/eval_yaml .
16:45 putter pugs: toEnum{SyckKind}: tag (214748364802) is outside of enumeration's range (0,2)  ... dubious died.
16:46 * Limbic_Region hasn't made it that far yet
16:47 putter 49 skipped.  that's the only failure.  embedded parrot:perl5.  optimized.  recent parrot trunk/ and ghc snapshot.  amd64.
16:48 putter oh, FC3.
16:49 putter I was running make tests with this configuration a lot yesterday, with no failures.
16:50 svnbot6 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:50 Limbic_Region t/unspecced/eval_yaml worked here
16:51 Limbic_Region ok, finished
16:52 Limbic_Region 1 test failed (io which is now skipped), Win XP, optimized, parrot rather recent
16:52 Limbic_Region there were 2 tests skipped due to no rules support which was odd
16:53 Limbic_Region several tests that spit out error messages but didn't actually fail (like no defined sub and useless use of constant in void context)
16:53 Limbic_Region other than that - all ok
16:53 putter Hmm, when I rerun  t/unspecced/eval_yaml both directly and in harness, it passes. :(  Ghc x86_64 flakeyness?
16:54 gaal i'm finishing off pass #1 of the build. will there be a pf2?
16:54 putter Limbic_Region: could you do the test now?
16:54 TSa has joined #perl6
16:54 gaal darn, forgot to inline Test.pm
16:54 Limbic_Region putter - just did
16:54 Limbic_Region *** Cannot parse PGE: a
16:54 Limbic_Region *** Error: end of file
16:55 * Limbic_Region wonders WTF that means
16:55 putter "a" ~~ /a/    !( "a" ~~ /a/)   eval('!("a" ~~ /a/)')
16:55 putter ah.
16:55 * putter looks around for an old copy of parrot...
16:56 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
16:56 * Limbic_Region is about to update
16:56 autrijus gaal: yes, there will, based on feedbacks
16:56 autrijus gaal: I'm doing the movie. eta 10 min
16:56 autrijus then I'll roll pf2
16:56 autrijus and another round, and we'll be good to go.
16:56 putter what r number does parrot --version show?
16:56 gaal the movie? what, there's another one? *glee*
16:56 Limbic_Region too late putter
16:57 putter ?
16:57 Limbic_Region I just wiped out the directory
16:57 gaal reminder to smokers: if you have lots of RAM, precompile Test (but give a large heap)
16:57 Limbic_Region I checked parrot -V (which didn't have the rev) and it was 0.2.2
16:57 putter ah well.  (you do that stuff _after_ testing is done...;)
16:58 putter gaal: details?
16:58 gaal putter: cp util/config-template.yml config.yml ; $EDITOR config.yml, uncomment two lines
16:59 gaal the one with "precompile_modules" and "ghc_heap_size"
16:59 gaal ones
16:59 putter ah, tnx.
16:59 * Aankh|Clone bangs forehead on wall.
16:59 gaal this saves ~8 minutes on my box
16:59 Limbic_Region putter - parrot --version doesn't give more than 0.2.2 AFAICT
16:59 putter out of?
16:59 Aankh|Clone gaal: Wanna guess where I found binaries for XML::Xerces?
17:00 gaal where? :)
17:00 Aankh|Clone xml.apache.org, of course.  The home of Xerces-P.
17:00 Limbic_Region though the rule test does now work in pugs
17:00 gaal :))
17:00 putter Limbic_Region: top line should say something like This is parrot version 0.2.2-devel (r8730) built for nojit.  Unless its the official release I guess...?
17:01 Limbic_Region putter - I don't think that always works
17:01 Limbic_Region I am getting it from Jonathan's prebuilt binary page
17:01 putter sigh.  ok, thanks.
17:01 Limbic_Region same thing with Pugs - wouldn't ever tell me the rev level
17:01 * Limbic_Region builds Pugs himself now and all is fine
17:01 nnunley has left "Leaving"
17:02 * Limbic_Region used to build parrot all the time as he was involved in the dev work, but only on Cygwin
17:02 * Limbic_Region doesn't do anything these days as he is officially lurker only
17:03 putter So, has anyone run make test with the most recent parrot release?   Ie, should we include a caveat in the release announcement about that not quite working?  Or is it?
17:04 Limbic_Region putter - I can run the test suite again
17:04 Limbic_Region the parrot from Jonathan's binary page was built today
17:04 putter gaal: that was 8 min out of X min?
17:04 gaal ~45?
17:04 gaal i forget the exact numbers
17:05 gaal it made the build slower by ~7 and the smoke faster by ~15
17:06 putter Turns out I have a copy of parrot-0.2.2.  And a non-embedded pugs.  I'll run it after the current make test run is done.
17:07 gaal actually: no, the cost is lighter than that. the time for the whole 2nd pass on my box is ~7min; but i already pay some of that cost anyway with precompiling Prelude alone
17:07 gaal this needs to be more scientific.
17:07 putter gaal: ok, thanks.  it looks like my tests are running sufficiently faster that it doesnt seem worth the divergence from common user experience.  But I look forward with great hapiness to using it in development.
17:08 TSa has quit IRC ("ChatZilla 0.9.61 [Mozilla rv:1.7.8/20050512]")
17:08 gaal actually in development you may not want to use it, unless you run the whole test suite often :)
17:09 dada has quit IRC ("zu spaet um makellos zu sein")
17:09 gaal stevan about? is there a new version of the movie up that i can try?
17:09 putter for parser changes, again, and again, and ...
17:09 putter and all the ext/ tests...
17:10 putter btw, is anyone checking the ext/ tests?
17:10 gaal see, that's because you actually know haskell. me, i recompile all the time just to make ghc happy :)
17:10 putter and is there any way to run them other than hand editing a harness call?
17:10 putter :)
17:10 gaal putter, they are on by default
17:10 * brentdax wakes up and wonders what pdcawley wanted with him.
17:11 autrijus movie done
17:11 autrijus reencoding
17:11 autrijus ingy: how many hours do I have? :)
17:11 Darren_Duncan make done ... will try svn up again ...
17:11 pdcawley Wanted to know if you wanted to be BRG, or BD in the summary. Went with Brent Royal-Gordon.
17:11 putter :|  err, "just to make ghc happy"?  putter realizes he really didnt understand that...
17:11 pdcawley I think I've asked you before and forgot.
17:11 Darren_Duncan I'm at 6042 ... now starting make test
17:11 gaal putter, i meant i still make zillions of syntax mistakes or type errors whenever i code in haskell
17:12 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:12 gaal i'm learning though, it used to be googols of 'em.
17:13 putter ah.  :)  yes.  most of my time in haskell dev is spent in a "did it typecheck yet?" loop.   which probably means I should take a more analytic and disciplined approach to it... but haven't yet.
17:13 autrijus I'm back. any new smoke failures?
17:13 Limbic_Region putter - almost back to t/builtins/undef with a parrot built today - so far so good
17:14 brentdax Yeah, I'm trying to use my Real Name(tm) from now on--the "Dax" is just in my From line for old times' sake.
17:14 gaal as for controlling what to smoke: util/yaml_harness.pl accepts a list of dirs on the comand line
17:14 putter re make test checking ext/ ... err, no?
17:14 gaal it defauilts to include ext
17:14 gaal aahhhh, make test...
17:14 gaal i thought you were running make smoke
17:14 putter ah, no.  perhaps should.
17:14 gaal in that case i don't know, sorry :)
17:15 gaal of course you should. it's got *colors* :)
17:15 gaal my smoke is only in pugsbus/ :(
17:15 stevan autrijus: where is the movie ??
17:15 putter mumble gui*!?! mumble command line mumble
17:15 gaal no gui
17:15 gaal yaml and html
17:15 gaal "make smoke" on the command line
17:16 gaal but you do need some per5 dependencies satisfied first:
17:16 * putter pulling gaal's leg...
17:16 gaal "cpan Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix" should take care of that
17:16 * gaal yelps voicelessly
17:17 putter actually, yes, I remember lacking prerequisites.  hmm, perhaps that's something worth mentioning in INSTALL?  Though the error may be self-explanatory...?
17:17 putter :)
17:17 gaal hey, t\pugsrun\09-dash-uppercase-c.t is still giving those warnings about "useless use of a constant in void context" (not fatal or anything)
17:17 gaal it is
17:17 gaal it says what you need to install
17:18 Limbic_Region and uppercase m yells about an undefined subroutine
17:18 gaal isn't that the test we always end up skipping? :)
17:18 gaal ah no, the one with spaces in the path is.
17:19 autrijus stevan: uploading
17:19 gaal stevan ping?
17:19 stevan autrijus: cool :)
17:19 stevan gaal: pong
17:19 autrijus stevan: I think you'll *love* it :)
17:19 gaal did you u/l a new version of your movie?
17:19 stevan autrijus: no doubt i will :)
17:19 autrijus gaal: what I'm uploading _is_ a new version of stevan's
17:19 stevan gaal: I put the audio and frames up for autrijus to do
17:19 autrijus much improved
17:19 gaal ah :)
17:20 gaal ?eval say <<cool>>
17:20 evalbot6 cool bool::true
17:20 autrijus ?eval <<cool>>
17:20 evalbot6 'cool'
17:20 Limbic_Region putter - parrot built today works fine AFAICT
17:20 gaal it's true that it's cool.
17:20 autrijus wmv uploading eta 90sec
17:20 autrijus mp4 coming in 5 mins
17:20 autrijus then swf
17:20 gaal then pf? :)
17:20 putter k
17:20 autrijus pf?
17:20 gaal you said there's a pf2?
17:20 autrijus ah, pf2 :)
17:20 autrijus yes.
17:20 autrijus actually, let me multitask.
17:21 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
17:21 * autrijus opens a new screen to roll pf2
17:21 gaal there should be an executable format called pf
17:21 gaal works only part of the time.
17:21 autrijus heh
17:21 autrijus http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.wmv
17:22 autrijus have fun
17:22 gaal smoke for pf1 eta 1min
17:22 stevan horray :)
17:22 mjl69 has quit IRC ()
17:22 gaal wow, that server is well-connected.
17:23 Darren_Duncan has quit IRC ()
17:23 putter ok, that's just weird.  Is there a known problem of make test in some pugs configurations running ext/ tests, and in others not?
17:23 moan has joined #perl6
17:23 stevan ((add 1 autrijus) (add 1 autrijus))
17:23 autrijus putter: yes, js does not and normal does
17:23 autrijus I think
17:24 autrijus or is that smoke?
17:24 * autrijus is not very sure
17:25 szabgab puuter: thanks for the imput
17:25 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/smoke_xp.html
17:25 putter hmm.   EMBED=parrot:perl , and I believe just parrot, never give me ext/ .  But EMBED nothing just did. ?!?
17:25 gaal # pf1
17:25 szabgab hi gaal
17:25 gaal hey gabor
17:25 szabgab so is there any chance to see you tomorrow in the afternoon ?
17:25 putter all make test.
17:26 autrijus putter: I think iblech did that on purpose
17:26 gaal probably not, sorry
17:26 gaal also i can't speak anyway
17:26 szabgab "ligthtening" talks are between 14:00-14:30 and mine is 10 minutes long
17:26 gaal so it's not like i can be very useful
17:26 szabgab what dou mean you cant'
17:26 szabgab speak ?
17:27 gaal throat infection
17:27 putter gaal: re scientifically, it could be nice to have runtimes in make test, for total, and perhaps (optionally?) for each entry.
17:27 gaal each entry is already in, when you run the yaml harness
17:27 ingy hola
17:27 gaal the whole smoke, also
17:27 ingy I need a picture of a Lambda Camel!
17:27 gaal but not for the build
17:27 ingy 1 hour to go!
17:28 ingy autrijus: do we have release?
17:28 szabgab at least you are an authentic Pugs developer not like "the speaker"
17:28 putter autrijus: ah.  ok.  but... wouldn't you run the fewer tests on the slower configuration...?  I must be missing the motivation...?
17:28 szabgab you could show code and irc with people sitting next to you
17:28 gaal "there's one!!"
17:28 ingy autrijus: and do you have a lambda camel image?
17:29 rafl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:29 szabgab yeah nm, is going to be there I know, but still having two is better :-)
17:29 rafl has joined #perl6
17:29 gaal ingy, would the joke Programming Perl 33rd ed image help?
17:29 szabgab gaal: ok I'll get off this thing, but I have some questions
17:29 gaal sure
17:29 ingy gaal: sure
17:29 ingy I need it now!
17:29 gaal ingy, let me hunt for the beast
17:30 szabgab th 33rd ed is on the web site of Aevil
17:30 ingy what about the svk site
17:30 gaal http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/img/2003_08/p6_cover.jpg
17:30 szabgab I just saw it and used it in my slides
17:30 gaal (that was for ingy)
17:30 gaal ha! jinx.
17:30 szabgab and I was searching for this about an hour !
17:31 gaal man, your google-fu needs an infusion :)
17:31 autrijus ingy: we have movie!
17:31 autrijus ingy: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.mp4
17:31 gaal "perl6 parody image", 2nd link
17:31 ingy http://www.atomiccoffeemedia.com/theonion/jimmydean/contest/images/pictures/pugs.jpg
17:31 autrijus ingy: how many time before the talk?
17:31 autrijus s/many/much/
17:31 gaal lol, love the image ingy
17:31 szabgab sure if you know what magic words to use on Google then its easy :-)
17:32 ingy autrijus++ # movie
17:32 ingy one hour to talk
17:32 autrijus good. look at the movie and see if it works?
17:32 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
17:33 szabgab ew can embed both p5 and parrot in pugs, right ?
17:33 autrijus szabgab: on some platforms, yes
17:33 itz_ has joined #perl6
17:33 gaal yay movie!  kewl
17:33 szabgab but one of the is a language you can use (p5)
17:34 szabgab the other one is a backend, you won't write embedded parrot code in pPugs would you ?
17:34 integral you could, to use a parrot library like NCI
17:35 autrijus szabgab: you can do eval("...", :lang<pir>)
17:35 autrijus and require_pir "foo.pbc"
17:35 autrijus but that's about it I think, nothing terribly useful.
17:35 szabgab ok, so if I understand currently - on some platforms - you can use Perl6 code, Perl5 code after embedding the interpreter, Parrot code after embedding Perrrot
17:35 itz_ probably this isnt implemented yet .. but is there anyway of setting up tab complete on pugs>"A".<tab> to show methods like say?
17:35 autrijus szabgab: but external parrot almost works as well as, if not better than, embedded
17:35 autrijus itz_: it's a very nice idea.
17:35 szabgab ok what else can we embed now ?
17:36 stevan itz_: that will be much easier when the metamodel is in place
17:36 autrijus itz_: once we have the metamodel ready then we should have that
17:36 stevan :)
17:36 autrijus :))
17:36 autrijus szabgab: haskell, if you have hs-plugins
17:36 autrijus szabgab: that's about it... no embedded SpiderMonkey for now
17:36 itz_ the same answer to a computing related question :O must be a first :)
17:36 szabgab ok, these are the "front ends"
17:37 szabgab to kids now &
17:37 gaal bye szabgab!
17:37 gaal how do you do that karaoke/voiceover thing anyway?
17:37 Khisanth pugs now embeds spidermonkey?
17:38 putter itz_: you might also look at... examples/eval.p6   the beginning of a p6 repl.
17:38 putter szabgab: &
17:38 itz_ putter: tnx I shall
17:38 autrijus Khisanth: no, not now
17:39 autrijus gaal: ms movie maker
17:39 Khisanth gaal: many things :)
17:39 autrijus finally: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/oscon05-stevan.swf
17:39 gaal (magic boxen)++
17:39 autrijus someone add them to the http://apocalypse.kwiki.org/?Movie page please
17:39 autrijus I'll reboot back to fbsd
17:40 stevan autrijus: I will
17:40 putter itz_: if you wanted to start on the <tab> autocompletion... symbol tables %Foo:: do exist, so could use that...
17:40 Khisanth gaal: you could also use virtual dub or mencoder or transcode :)
17:40 * putter thinks "they do exist, don't they...?"
17:41 mkirank has joined #perl6
17:41 ingy autrijus: how do I embed an mp4 in html?
17:41 ingy the <embed> tag is cropping
17:42 gaal (prgrammable magic boxen)++
17:43 stevan autrijus: ingy: kwiki has updated movie links now
17:43 ingy I have the movies
17:43 szabgab back for a few seconds they start to ask for water and things :-)
17:43 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
17:43 ingy I need the proper html
17:43 wolverian <object>, I think. <embed> is IE only.
17:43 szabgab so the frontened is ok, now what is the curent backend ?
17:43 wolverian http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/objects.html#h-13.3
17:43 * ingy tries
17:43 Darren_Duncan 'make test' still in progress
17:44 szabgab what code can be run on Javascript /
17:44 szabgab ?
17:44 gaal szabgab, over 60% of the test suite passes.
17:45 szabgab of Perl 6 you mean ?
17:45 gaal of pugs
17:45 ingy wolverian: <object data="url"> ???
17:45 putter well, the pugs test suite.  which is a subset of p6
17:45 osfameron has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:45 wolverian ingy, yes. remember alt="" too.
17:46 putter fuzzy but ever growing subset.  add tests! ;)
17:46 Aankh|Clone This SWIG stuff is driving me crazy...
17:46 ingy wolverian: no worky!
17:46 szabgab what other backends are running now ?
17:46 ingy in firefox anyway
17:47 wolverian ingy, hmm. does your page validate? :)
17:47 ingy <object data="movies/oscon05-autrijus.mp4">
17:47 Darren_Duncan 'make test' currently t/oo ... no problems so far
17:47 putter as long as we're all waiting for tests and building movies... at some point we should abstract some of the test files, so for instance, a full array test suite can be applied to all objects which claim to be array-like, without having to duplicate things.
17:47 szabgab so what do I need in order to have the javascript backend ?
17:47 wolverian ingy, it might be a plugin problem then.
17:48 gaal szabgab, hmm, i don't know - unless somebody else does look for iblech
17:48 gaal seen iblech
17:48 jabbot gaal: iblech was seen 2 hours 21 minutes 38 seconds ago
17:48 putter szabgab: perl, and brower. :)
17:49 putter s/brower/browser/
17:49 putter but spidermonkey is much faster.
17:50 putter that you can get from mozilla.org (I fuzzily recall)
17:50 szabgab putter: I am slow, I have pugs compiled on my machine, what now ?
17:50 putter ./pugs -e 'say "hello, world!"  # its traditional ;)
17:50 szabgab I also have say "Hello World" which would be enough for me
17:51 szabgab putter: that's ok, but that's not javascript
17:51 putter saying ./pugs  starts it in interactive mode.
17:51 szabgab yeah, that part is already working thanks to gaal and the hackathon
17:51 ingy SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
17:51 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
17:51 ingy I got it
17:51 ingy stevan++
17:51 ingy autrijus++
17:51 putter javascript is under perl5/PIL2JS .  see info there.  it's a bit standalone at the moment.
17:51 szabgab now I would like to see it in my browser (and all locally, I won't have network tomorrow)
17:52 ingy <embed src="movies/oscon05-stevan.mp4" WIDTH="100%" HEIGHT="100%" CONTROLS="TRUE">
17:52 autrijus woot
17:53 autrijus szabgab: perl5/PIL2JS/README explains how to get that working
17:53 wolverian what happened to standards? :(
17:53 stevan ingy: horray
17:53 autrijus wolverian: you want <object> ?
17:53 szabgab thanks, now reading ..
17:53 wolverian well, I think it's the w3c recommendation
17:53 stevan I guess this is the next best thing to being there :)
17:53 wolverian I don't mind if the page doesn't even attempt to validate :)
17:53 autrijus wolverian: not until you put <object> for <img> too :)
17:53 Aankh|Clone wolverian: <object> doesn't work in the majority of browsers.
17:54 wolverian Aankh|Clone, really? IE?
17:54 autrijus and really, if they had spelled it <obj>
17:54 autrijus then I think it will get more adoption.
17:54 Aankh|Clone wolverian: Not in IE, or Safari, or Konqueror, IIRC.
17:54 autrijus it's a huffman thing
17:54 wolverian Aankh|Clone, agh. sucks.
17:54 Aankh|Clone Why?
17:54 autrijus <object> I think works in IE
17:54 autrijus not sure about the konq series.
17:54 gaal autrijus, why? <blink> got plenty of adoption.
17:54 Aankh|Clone You're forgetting the greatest thing about standards: there's so many of them to choose from. :-)
17:54 wolverian autrijus, right. xhtml lets you do: <p src="image.png">alternative text</p>
17:54 * gaal ducks
17:54 wolverian autrijus, where src can be video as well.
17:54 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
17:54 wolverian er, xhtml2, that is.
17:54 autrijus yes.
17:54 autrijus xhtml2 looks very cool
17:55 autrijus not as cool as perl6 but close
17:55 gaal maybe we can target it? :)
17:55 wolverian I thought I read they're retaining <b> and such, which sucks, though.
17:55 autrijus of course, there's this implementation bit...
17:55 autrijus gaal: lol, a turing complete xhtml?
17:55 gaal PHBs love to call HTML a language after all :)
17:55 autrijus I think you can do that with xml namespace... just compile to xslt
17:55 gaal pf2-p?
17:56 Aankhen`` wolverian: Why does retaining <b> and such suck?
17:56 autrijus gaal: as soon as you stop tempting me with good ideas
17:56 Aankhen`` Ah, autrijus, IE does support <object>, but it's broken.
17:56 autrijus or, sick ideas, as the case may be
17:56 Aankhen`` http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2002AprJun/0865.html
17:56 putter autrijus: for post-release, would you mind a 10x slowdown in rx compilation?  basically, Parser.hs hooks out to macros in Prelude.hs which hook back to Parser.  Allows rx and friends to be replaced, lexically, perl-side.  But perl5.t goes from under a minute to seven. :/
17:56 Aankhen`` http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/13/object_and_internet_explorer too.
17:56 gaal i saw your hair autrijus. it isn't pointy :)
17:56 autrijus putter: post-release, just commit things in and we'll talk :)
17:57 putter k. :)
17:57 Aankhen`` ingy: I believe that for <object> to work, you'd need to specify a mime-type using the `type` attribute.
17:57 putter (anarchistic development)++
17:57 pjcj has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:57 Aankhen`` ingy: If you're interested, http://realdev1.realise.com/rossa/rendertest/quicktime.html
17:58 Darren_Duncan testing
17:58 wolverian Aankhen``, <b> versus <strong>. I dislike purely visual elements. that's what CSS is for
17:58 wolverian Aankhen``, albeit it's a useful shortcut. :)
17:58 gaal good read for after the release: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/smullyan.html
17:58 Aankhen`` wolverian: <strong> does not cover every single case where you want text to appear in bold.
17:58 autrijus Aankhen``: that's what css is for.
17:59 autrijus font-weight: bold
17:59 autrijus but hey, mtowtdi.
17:59 Aankhen`` autrijus: So basically, you want to replace a short, easy to use, semantically meaningless tag with a long, less easy to understand tag and attribute combination that is also semantically meaningless?
18:00 Aankhen`` (that is to say, <b>foo</b> vs. <span class="something_that_needs_to_be_bold">foo</span>)
18:01 putter gaal: :)
18:03 Aankhen`` wolverian, take a look at this if you have a minute: http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/09/semantic
18:03 pjcj has joined #perl6
18:04 ingy hey all: http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html
18:04 ingy THANK YOU
18:04 autrijus pre2 uploading
18:04 ToniEisner has joined #perl6
18:04 autrijus ingy: talk starting?
18:04 ingy can I announce 6.2.9?
18:04 autrijus you can, but not at beginning of the talk.
18:04 ingy I talk in 30 minutes
18:04 autrijus oh ok.
18:04 autrijus then you can.
18:04 ingy :)
18:05 ingy I'll have irc window open on stage
18:05 stevan ingy++  
18:05 ingy ok bbiab!
18:05 gaal we'll flag you :) "ingy ingy! tell them now!"
18:05 whiteg ingy++
18:05 integral the url on the first page of the slides is wrong :)
18:05 ingy hi whiteg!!!!
18:06 integral ingy: s{autrijus.org/apoc}{www.kwiki.org/apocalypse}
18:06 autrijus ingy: commit your .spork to docs/talks/ now!
18:06 autrijus ingy: we'll fix it for you! it's a tradition
18:06 autrijus (or put it somewhere and I can commit for you)
18:06 whiteg ingy: :)
18:07 whiteg ingy: good luck
18:08 wolverian Aankhen``, thanks, that's a good page.
18:09 Aankhen`` NP.
18:10 autrijus uploaded: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.9-pre2.tar.gz
18:10 autrijus size: 1441212 sha1: 39184eac1e4fe9a7008455a0415394575773b01a
18:10 autrijus this is likely the final -pre before release.
18:10 autrijus I'll update ChangeLog now and wait for ingy's slides to go into docs/talks/
18:11 autrijus but otherwise please start smoking
18:11 autrijus it corresponds to r6045.
18:13 szabgab trying the javascrip backend and does not seem to do anything
18:13 szabgab script is      say "Hello World";
18:13 autrijus szabgab: it should have generated some .html files. also, do you have spidermonkey installed?
18:13 szabgab perl5/PIL2JS/pil2js.pl --output=hello_world.html --link=html hello_world.pil
18:14 szabgab ah I need spiedrmoneky ?
18:14 autrijus no, I think you can just open hello_world.html in your fav browser, no?
18:14 autrijus you want iblech for this
18:14 szabgab Firefox ?
18:14 autrijus and I really need to go back to releng :)
18:14 szabgab do that, I have 12 more hours to show this :-)
18:15 szabgab and nothingmuch will be there too so I can blame it on him :-)
18:15 szabgab later&
18:15 gaal bye again
18:16 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:17 autrijus gaal: resmoking?
18:17 gaal yes, near end of pass 1 build.
18:18 autrijus k
18:19 putter Aankhen``: ah well.  parrot-0.2.2 works.  so your failures are still unexplained.
18:21 ingy autrijus: you want my slides tarball?
18:22 autrijus ingy: just the spork file
18:22 Aankhen`` putter: Eh?
18:22 autrijus I spotted quite a number of glitches
18:22 autrijus but overall very very good talk
18:23 stevan ingy++ # I agreee :)
18:24 ingy http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse.slides
18:25 ingy nobody cares about details in an ingy talk
18:25 gaal ingy, what's the start url again?
18:25 putter Aankhen``: doh.  don't mind me.
18:25 ingy http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html
18:25 putter Limbic_Region:  ah well.  parrot-0.2.2 works.  so your failures are still unexplained.
18:25 ingy I think
18:25 gaal ingy, thanks (and good luck :)
18:25 gaal yes, it is
18:26 ingy gaal: thank you!
18:26 ingy thank you all
18:26 autrijus ingy: fixing, eta 120 seconds
18:26 ingy go autrijus go
18:27 gaal autrijus, i have a minor fix, shall i commmit?
18:28 gaal the default recommended heap size for precom prelude ***+ Test*** should be a little larget
18:28 gaal larger
18:28 * putter can't get beyond the start slide.  looks like the js doesnt work in an up-to-date firefox on FC3. :(
18:28 stevan putter: hit "return"
18:29 putter doh.  thanks.  :/
18:29 autrijus gaal: just commit
18:29 autrijus gaal: better do it now :)
18:29 gaal ack
18:29 stevan putter: it took a minute or two to realize that myself :)
18:29 autrijus ingy: http://autrijus.org/tmp/apocalypse.slides
18:29 Darren_Duncan I finished make test ... 1 failed file
18:29 autrijus ingy: have fun, you rock!
18:29 Darren_Duncan t/data_types/pairs.t
18:30 autrijus don't look at my changes -- after all I didn't look at iblech's changes back at YAPC::NA ;)
18:30 autrijus just spork -make again
18:30 Darren_Duncan I think pairs.t just died
18:30 Darren_Duncan anyway, I'm going to go over and show support for ingy in his audience
18:30 Darren_Duncan offline momentarily ...
18:31 autrijus have fun :)
18:31 autrijus gaal: how's the smoke?
18:31 gaal still compiling Run pass #2
18:32 gaal once that
18:32 gaal s finished eta 1300 sec more or less
18:32 autrijus ok. as soon as you report 100% ok I'll roll a release :)
18:32 autrijus sanity checking here too, plus changelogging
18:32 Darren_Duncan has quit IRC ()
18:32 gaal my last commit was fun: one line patch to a comment. :)
18:33 autrijus heh :)
18:33 autrijus ingy should be on air now
18:33 gaal damn damn damn!
18:33 gaal ran out of heap
18:33 gaal apparenlty the patch wasn't good :)
18:33 autrijus roll it back ;)
18:33 gaal nah, why do that when i can suggest a bigger heap :)
18:34 autrijus maybe because some people don't have that amount of memory :)
18:34 autrijus (it's a hard req)
18:34 autrijus ah, just a comment?
18:34 autrijus go ahead ;)
18:35 gaal yes - most people don't precompile Test.pm anyway
18:35 gaal better precompilation == better
18:35 gaal (hmm, does the above equation imply that precompilation == 0 ?)
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18:38 gaal i won't commit until i know it's sufficient
18:38 gaal so if you want to roll a tarball, don't wait for me
18:38 autrijus gaal: nah, I'll wait for you :)
18:38 gaal it == the value i gave
18:38 gaal == embarrasingly high
18:39 brentdax What program is used to display these slides?
18:40 gaal a web browser
18:41 justatheory has quit IRC ()
18:44 * putter final (pre2) test run begins...
18:44 autrijus good
18:45 gaal uh oh. my directive was not honored
18:45 gaal sorry :(
18:45 autrijus np :(
18:46 putter brentdax: http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html  http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Spork-0.20/
18:46 gaal restarting, but this is probably indicative of a PugsBuild bug :(
18:48 Darren_Duncan has joined #perl6
18:48 Darren_Duncan test
18:48 Darren_Duncan the autrijus video is playing now
18:48 Darren_Duncan just ended
18:48 ingy autrijus: I think they liked the movie
18:48 Darren_Duncan I'm at ingy's talk ...
18:49 Darren_Duncan I did
18:49 autrijus ingy: I listened to it.
18:49 autrijus and I heared the applause too
18:49 gaal smoke started. eta 1350 sec
18:49 autrijus boojum++ # skype feed
18:49 dbushong has joined #perl6
18:49 obra hah
18:50 stevan skype feed? where?
18:50 autrijus stevan: private :)
18:50 stevan ah
18:51 * putter abandons google search for oscon skype :(
18:51 gaal heh :)
18:52 putter fyi, parrot-0.2.2 vs parrot trunk/ is not an issue (on FC3 etc etc) vis make test (err, the flavor of make test which includes etc/).  one test run still in progress.
18:53 putter Remind me why make test sometimes includes ext/ and sometimes not?
18:54 putter (preceeding parrot observation was vis pre1)
18:54 Darren_Duncan I don't know
18:54 Darren_Duncan in my experience, it only runs ext/ if all the normal t/ worked
18:54 Darren_Duncan one t/ failure, and no ext/ is run ... its very annoying, really
18:54 Darren_Duncan and the smokers don't have that problem
18:56 putter maybe have separate make test and make fulltest ?   That would also provide a place to put "it just runs toooo long" tests.
18:57 autrijus ok, changelog done. who still smoking?
18:57 gaal me
18:57 putter It would also be nice to get the rules tests out from t_disabled.
18:57 clkao should i? last i tried it will take 1 hour
18:57 putter me
18:58 ingy autrijus: is it soup yet?
18:58 xb95 has joined #perl6
18:58 Darren_Duncan data_types/pairs.t didn't work before
18:59 autrijus Darren_Duncan: yes, noted
18:59 autrijus ingy: waiting for gaal + putter to finish smoking
18:59 autrijus will be done before your talk is done
18:59 * putter is working through t/operators/... no issues yet...
19:00 gaal the last test in io.t crashes for me (w32 native)
19:01 autrijus ok.
19:02 clkao even make clean takes so long
19:02 clkao infinite look
19:02 clkao loop
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19:05 putter clkao: really?  hmm... perhaps I should try it on one of my pre1 builds...?
19:05 clkao it's old makefile
19:05 clkao rerun makefile.pl works
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19:05 putter ah
19:06 autrijus ok, ready to fly anytime.
19:06 gaal i'm still in oo, near the end
19:06 autrijus k, will wait for you two
19:07 ingy autrijus: can you give guido a committer bit?
19:07 ingy k thx
19:07 autrijus is he in the audience?
19:07 autrijus guido at python dot org?
19:08 autrijus I don't usually send it to people who is not expecting it :)
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19:09 * putter I'm though t/ without issues.  ext/ is running...
19:10 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
19:10 gaal i've started pugsrun, a little less than 5min i think.
19:10 autrijus pugs committership invitation sent to both guido and larry.
19:11 putter but based on t/, and pre1 ext/ , I'm fine with flying.
19:11 autrijus 8108 tests all pass here.
19:11 putter :)
19:11 putter What about matz? :)
19:11 autrijus if matz is in the audience sure :)
19:11 gaal or spj? :)
19:12 autrijus I'll do that at icfp not oscon :)
19:12 stevan and brendan (the Javascript guy)
19:12 gaal t/rules/, so far so good.
19:16 autrijus writing release notes.
19:17 gaal &clear for @takeoff;
19:18 autrijus okay. fly!
19:18 * gaal cheers
19:18 xb95 everybody clapped in the audience
19:18 autrijus http://pugscode.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.9.tar.gz :)
19:18 Darren_Duncan who just said "its soup:"
19:19 ingy A collective w00t to you all
19:19 putter yay!!
19:19 autrijus ingy: I hope the release didn't go unnoticed :)
19:19 xb95 I will have to play with Pugs later, I had never known much about it. This is exciting. :)
19:19 putter toot!  toot!
19:19 xb95 has quit IRC ("lunch")
19:21 autrijus ingy: you rock :)
19:22 stash has joined #perl6
19:22 Amnesiac are you guys at OSCON right now?
19:22 autrijus Amnesiac: not physically, but virtually :)
19:22 Amnesiac ah :P
19:22 Amnesiac couldn't attend this time?
19:23 GeJ has joined #perl6
19:24 autrijus decided not to :)
19:25 larsen has joined #perl6
19:26 Amnesiac I see
19:26 putter with flight 6.2.9 vanishing into the mists of time, putter dreams of making big buggy and dangerous patches to pugs...  But that will have to wait, for now is a time for... paperwork!
19:26 putter bye all &
19:26 autrijus ciao putter :)
19:27 putter congrats ingy!
19:27 putter has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:27 stevan Amnesiac: autrijus didnt want to submit to another body cavity search at the airport
19:27 Amnesiac haha
19:28 autrijus too true, sadly
19:34 Darren_Duncan naptime see youse later
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19:38 autrijus release notes up. journaling...
19:39 gaal i figured out why my heap size request wasn't honored earlier
19:39 clkao all tests pass with PUGS_EMBED=perl5
19:40 clkao though a bit too late
19:40 osfameron has joined #perl6
19:40 autrijus still, good to know :)
19:40 gaal (at first i added a trace print, and it worked, so i was about to commit a "here, i don't know why but this helps" patch :)
19:40 gaal but the real reason is that i didn't rerun perl Makefile.PL
19:41 Maddingue__ has joined #perl6
19:41 Limbic_Region hey - how did ingy's talk go?
19:41 gaal that's kinda distressing, because config.yml is supposed to be a dep
19:41 autrijus Limbic_Region: I hear that it's quite well received
19:41 gaal ah! it's just a dep for pugs... hmm. how do i make it a trigger for a makefile regen?
19:41 autrijus gaal: touch Makefile.PL
19:41 autrijus # evil but works
19:41 gaal heh
19:42 autrijus Limbic_Region: the videos got some applauses :)
19:42 gaal heh heh :)
19:42 Limbic_Region good
19:42 Limbic_Region I will have to check out the video from home - apparently I can't download/install the proper codex and only get sound
19:43 autrijus it surprises me that you can't even get .swf
19:43 autrijus or .wma
19:43 gaal wha! it *still* doesn't work. this can't be<tm>
19:43 autrijus I mean .wmv
19:43 autrijus usually one of the two could work
19:44 gaal anyone here with plenty of RAM? (> 512mb)
19:44 dudley gaal: 768M here
19:45 gaal okay, please help me reproduce this:
19:45 gaal take the release tarball
19:45 gaal add this to util/build_pugs.pl
19:45 gaal    print ((join " ", @_) . "\n");
19:46 gaal as line 65, right after "sub run"
19:46 gaal then vi config.yml
19:46 gaal uncomment precompile_modules and ghc_heap_size
19:47 gaal perl Makefile.PL ; make
19:47 Limbic_Region autrijus - the .wmv does work - but only sound
19:47 gaal and tell me if pass #2 crashes + how much memory GHC thinks it has
19:47 Limbic_Region not all .wmv are created equal
19:47 * Limbic_Region didn't try the .swf
19:47 dudley gaal: okay, give me a minute
19:47 Khisanth Limbic_Region: which wmv?
19:47 Khisanth oscon05-stevan.wmv worked fine
19:48 gaal the vexing issue is that on an svn working copy the above *does* work.
19:48 Limbic_Region http://apocalypse.kwiki.org/index.cgi?Movies
19:48 gaal thanks dudley!
19:48 dudley np
19:48 gaal this will take more than a minute though :)
19:48 Limbic_Region Khisanth - depending on your version of media player and what codexen it has installed
19:48 gaal bbibab # food &
19:49 Khisanth Limbic_Region: not even using windows :)
19:49 Limbic_Region heh
19:49 Limbic_Region not really an option for me ATM
19:50 Limbic_Region .swf is working though
19:50 autrijus cool
19:50 autrijus at least you get some sort of image
19:51 Khisanth that camera for an eye look is ...
19:51 autrijus ...my signature look.
19:51 Khisanth "I am Autrijus of Borg..."
19:51 stevan Khisanth: that is his eye
19:51 stevan he is a cyborg dont you know
19:51 Khisanth :)
19:51 Khisanth stevan: that would explain alot actually
19:52 Khisanth the coding while sleeping for example
19:52 autrijus "in the long run, we are all cyborgs"
19:53 Khisanth wouldn't mpeg1 have been easier? :)
19:54 autrijus true, but sorenson squeeze put mpeg1 at the second page :)
19:54 autrijus and I followed the path of least resistance
19:54 autrijus s/squeeze/squeezeit/
19:54 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
19:54 Khisanth then whey did you create three?! :P
19:55 autrijus well, .wmv is master copy, but ingy is on osx, so .mp4 is more natural
19:55 autrijus but I wasn't sure he can run the .mp4 codec, so I made .swf as fallback
19:55 autrijus end of story :)
19:55 Khisanth not .mov anymore?
19:55 autrijus squeezeit can't generate .mov file properly on my machine
19:55 autrijus :-/
19:56 autrijus and I hear .mp4 is the future anyway
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19:57 Limbic_Region the last video creation stuff I did was years ago when my boss wanted the clip from Charlie Brown with the 5 cent psychiatrist bit - I had to figure out how to rip the DVD and convert the format - back then it didn't seem all that easy
19:58 autrijus it's my first time playing with video creation too
19:58 autrijus lots of false starts
19:59 * Limbic_Region has now enjoyed both movies
19:59 autrijus :D
19:59 Khisanth it's quite easy these days :)
19:59 Khisanth some formats easier than others
20:04 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:04 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (""Be good and you will be lonesome." -- Mark Twain [Time wasted online: 3hrs 8mins 13secs]")
20:04 gaal bye A!
20:09 Khisanth hmm Azumanga
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20:13 dudley whee, pass #2
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20:13 gaal okay, Run will take a while
20:15 gaal in the meantime: scoll up a bit to the line just before GHC started. do you see +RTS -Msomething -RTS ?
20:16 dudley s/something/348m/
20:16 gaal which is what you have in your congig.yml, right?
20:16 gaal config
20:16 dudley yep
20:17 gaal okay. that's basic sanity. :)
20:17 gaal now to see GHC honored that.
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20:24 szabgab to finish my questions, can Pugs compile to Parrot already ?
20:24 autrijus szabgab: yes. ./pugs -BPIR -e 'say 123'
20:25 autrijus ./pugs -CPIR -e 'say 123' > foo.pir
20:25 autrijus (-B is compile+run, -C is compile only)
20:25 autrijus the PIR backend is currently quite behind javascript though.
20:25 szabgab ok, so Pugs can run P6 by itself, through Parrot and through my browser (Javascript) am I right, that's it currently ?
20:25 autrijus yes.
20:25 autrijus and also thru p5
20:26 autrijus but only for very simple things
20:26 autrijus but I plan to remedy that.
20:26 szabgab do you mean it can generate p5 script ?
20:26 autrijus yes.
20:26 szabgab p6->p5 compiler ?
20:26 autrijus yes.
20:26 szabgab oh
20:26 autrijus the code is in perl5/PIL-Run/
20:26 autrijus like JS, it's not yet integrated back.
20:26 szabgab as if I could make sense of that :-(
20:27 autrijus these are all new developments in the last two weeks :)
20:27 * Limbic_Region wipes the drool from szabgab's chin and attempts to close the gaping oriface
20:27 szabgab oh I see that's the ONLY reason I have not noticed them :-)
20:27 autrijus right. in YAPC::NA we talked about them a lot
20:28 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:28 autrijus but real working code only begings in the past few weeks
20:28 szabgab I missed that by a week, but I hope YAPC::EU will give some if that too
20:28 szabgab if/of
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20:30 autrijus hm, guido didn't pick up the pugs committer invitation. I wonder why
20:30 gaal dudley, for me, running the GHC second pass manually (i.e., copything the GHC command line over and submitting it to the shell verbatim) did work.
20:30 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:30 gaal was he indeed in the audience?
20:31 osfameron has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
20:31 dudley gaal: It's been chugging along at 217M real memory for a while now
20:31 gaal it oughta still rise
20:31 autrijus gaal: he was... although it turned out that he didn't ask for committershi
20:31 autrijus p
20:31 autrijus larry asked it for him
20:31 gaal hee
20:33 gaal once upon a time, livejournal had invites. it was considered good to "recruit" active interesting writers - people were proud of the people they brought
20:33 szabgab ./pugs --help tells me   (valid backends are: Ghc, Parrot, Pil, Pir, Pugs)
20:33 gaal so, nice catch for today, autrijus :)
20:33 szabgab which is Perl5 ?
20:35 gaal to continue the analogy, sometimes newcomers didn't seem eager in the beginning... but turned out to get hooked after a few months.
20:35 gaal :)
20:36 stevan it would be pretty cool to have Guido in the Pugs AUTHORS file :)
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20:37 autrijus indeed :)
20:37 autrijus szabgab: none is perl5/js. that's what I meant by "not integrated"
20:38 szabgab ah
20:42 dudley gaal: done. GHC maxed out at 275M.
20:42 gaal okay, that means it was honored on your setup.
20:42 gaal it == the heap size request
20:42 saorge has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:42 gaal which means i have no idea why sometimes it isn't honored.
20:42 saorge has joined #perl6
20:43 gaal :-/
20:43 gaal anyway, thanks, dudley++
20:44 dudley np :-)
20:46 dudley okay, time to go home now. Adios!
20:46 dudley has quit IRC ()
20:49 autrijus iblech: hm, http://linide.sourceforge.net/pugs-livecd-6.2.9.iso is down? I thought it was up a while ago
20:50 TheMaaaa has joined #perl6
20:53 ingy hola
20:53 gaal night all! nice flying with you :)
20:53 gaal oh - congrats ingy :)
20:53 ingy thanks gaal :)
20:53 gaal bye &
20:54 autrijus ingy: so how's the talk :)
20:54 autrijus the skype feed broke right after my video
20:54 ingy heh
20:54 ingy it was great
20:54 ingy I think so
20:54 autrijus woot
20:55 autrijus so you can enjoy the conference now
20:55 ingy I guess some people maybe didn't like my personal rants
20:55 autrijus you mean against oscon?
20:55 autrijus or against blue sugar cubes?
20:55 autrijus or against george?
20:55 ingy yeah... take no prisoners eh?
20:55 autrijus mm :)
20:55 autrijus so did you use my modified slides?
20:55 ingy I just say what's on my mind
20:56 autrijus the one with french poetry
20:56 justathe1ry has joined #perl6
20:58 ingy I take things from various sources
20:58 ingy too little time to say everything
20:59 autrijus *nod* I just wanted to make sure that I'm not arguably the greatest hacker :)
21:00 ingy you are a great hacker
21:00 ingy :p
21:00 autrijus right, but not the way you put it, so I changed it slightly :)
21:00 autrijus but anyway, thanks so much for doing the stunt
21:01 ingy yeah, thanks for writing it
21:01 ingy :)
21:01 autrijus nah, most of the materials are from you and interviews
21:01 autrijus btw, the interviews == good idea
21:01 autrijus I hope my metaphysical mishmash didn't turn people off
21:01 ingy yeah, there was some new fun created
21:01 ingy movies++
21:02 autrijus movies++ # indeed
21:02 ingy Gloria Wall laughed a lot at your metaphysical mishmash :)
21:02 autrijus oooh. nice :)
21:02 ingy so I think it was nice
21:03 szabgab where are the slides ?
21:03 autrijus :D
21:03 autrijus szabgab: in the pugs tree
21:03 autrijus docs/talks/oscon-apocalypse.spork
21:03 autrijus rendered html is http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/start.html
21:04 szabgab thx
21:05 ingy szabgab: http://www.kwiki.org/apocalypse/slide23b.html#end
21:06 szabgab autrijus: that page does not have working links even http://autrijus.org/apoc/start.html is 404
21:06 ingy my personal  favorite
21:06 ingy *yawn*
21:06 ingy I need a nap
21:06 clkao ingy: you should go to svl talk!
21:06 osfameron has joined #perl6
21:06 autrijus ingy: I need to sleep too
21:06 autrijus gotta wake up in 5 hours
21:07 autrijus wonder how I can do that
21:07 autrijus alarm clocks, maybe
21:07 clkao it won't work
21:07 shapr lots of them
21:07 meppl has joined #perl6
21:08 autrijus a beowolf...
21:08 autrijus ...not going to work
21:08 shapr heh, a beowulf cluster of clocks? That just might work.
21:08 autrijus gosh, that slide23b's damian picture is animated gif
21:08 autrijus horrors
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21:14 * autrijus waves &
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21:45 pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } @a, @b
21:45 evalbot6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
21:46 Limbic_Region ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); zip @a, @b
21:46 evalbot6 (1, 3, 2, 4, undef, 5)
21:46 buu Eval bot so sexy.
21:47 integral safe sexy!
21:47 pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); my @c; for @a,@b -> $_ { push @c, $_ }; @c
21:47 evalbot6 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
21:48 pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } \@, \@b
21:48 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "\\" expecting block construct, ":", "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
21:48 Limbic_Region you forget an a or was that intentional?
21:48 pdcawley Forgot.
21:49 pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2); my @b = (3,4,5); map -> $arg { $arg } \@a, \@b
21:49 evalbot6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
21:49 pdcawley Ooh... that's broken.
21:49 pdcawley According to Luke that should be ((1,2), (3,4,5))
21:50 pdcawley ?eval my @a = (1,2,3); zip @a, @a, @a
21:50 evalbot6 (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3)
21:50 Limbic_Region ok, so according to Luke - what syntax should you use to get the current behavior?
21:50 Limbic_Region IOW - when is auto-derefening not
21:50 pdcawley Ghod knows.
21:51 pdcawley Personally I think that signature slurpy is over eager.
21:52 pdcawley What's signature of zip?
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21:54 Limbic_Region sorry - was in #perl
21:54 Limbic_Region dunno
21:54 * pdcawley grins, I've just asked Luke on p6l. Interested to hear what he has to say.
21:54 Limbic_Region I have pretty much removed myself from p6 dev and when I ready the summary today, I didn't know what the recent decision on slurpy params was but I took it that you didn't like it
21:55 pdcawley I don't. But I may have been misreading the spec and living in blissful ignorance for months.
21:55 pdcawley s/months/years/
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22:00 putter zip is in docs/AES/S29draft.pod
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22:02 putter (it came up in conversation with cybercobra)
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23:11 pdcawley_ Hmm... unless I'm seriously misunderstanding Luke' s point, that should flatten all the list args to zip in a single list.
23:12 pdcawley_ But I've got to go AFK again... sorry.
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23:13 svnbot6 has joined #perl6
23:13 svnbot6 r6057 | fglock++ | * updated Recurrence.pm ChangeLog
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5)
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up some hacks in Object
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up MRO handling in MetaClass
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ |   - adding comments about circularity issues
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ | * cleaning up _metaclass_dispatch in MetaModel
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ |   - now properly handles private method calls
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ |   - ideally this can be removed post bootstrapping,
23:13 svnbot6 r6058 | Stevan++ |     I will have to investigate that  
23:13 svnbot6 r6059 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: README: Added basic getting started info, szabgab++ for asking.
23:13 svnbot6 r6059 | iblech++ | In short: use ./jspugs.pl, enter :precomp, then enter Perl 6 code and point
23:13 svnbot6 r6059 | iblech++ | your browser to ./output.html.
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23:14 * brentdax heads over to PAUSE...
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23:19 iblech stevan: FYI, I'll probably start integrating Perl6.MetaModel tomorrow (i.e. in ~~15h)
23:19 nothingmuch ingy: cute tal.
23:19 nothingmuch k
23:20 nothingmuch too bad you didn't fix my typos/wordos though ;-)
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23:37 Maddingue__ is now known as Maddingue
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23:39 iblech autrijus: re (was at local Linux usergroup meeting, hold my talk, people seemed to like it :)) It seemed .sf.net was down, but it's up again now. I've just uploaded the new live cd
23:40 iblech autrijus: How will PIL2 emit class definitions? E.g., what's the PIL for class Foo is Bar { has Baz .$grtz is rw }?
23:41 iblech (Need to sleep now, but will backlog.)
23:41 iblech Night all :)
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23:45 brentdax The PAUSE indexer got a little confused when it looked at WWW-Kontent-0.01...it seems to have sat there going "I don't see any `package` statements--where are the modules?"
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