Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-08-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:20 mugwump brentdax: utsl.gen.nz/pugs-svk-dump.bz2 will be ready shortly...
01:20 mugwump brentdax: both PCRE and P6 Rule objects look like rules when you say them
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01:26 brentdax mugwump: PCRE is emitting errors when I try to run Perl 6 regexes.
01:26 mugwump ah
01:26 mugwump hmm, that dump file is 20MB
01:26 mugwump still going, too.  almost ready.
01:26 brentdax Alright.
01:27 brentdax How do I use ti once I get it?
01:27 brentdax *it
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01:30 mugwump ok, it's finished.  I would guess that piping through | bunzip2 | svnadmin load ~/.svk/local should do it
01:30 brentdax Okay, thanks.
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02:27 svnbot6 r6181 | fglock++ | * Migrated all containers, tests from ext/ to perl5/
02:27 svnbot6 r6181 | fglock++ |   (with help of a 5-line regex)
02:28 hobbs (5-line regex)++
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02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: More recovery after the CPS change.
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |   * If you return a flattened array, its flatenessness is preserved now. This
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |     re-enables &prefix:<*>. (Before the CPS change, it was not possible to
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |     return flattened arrays, either, but I worked around that by using a hack.
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |     It's solved correctly now.)
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |   * Other things that work again: Prettyprinting of unhandled exceptions,
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |     stringification of arrays with holes (e.g. arrays where .delete was used),
02:50 svnbot6 r6182 | iblech++ |     return(...) in subrefs.
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03:11 dbrock is svnbot6 tracking Pugs?
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03:12 autrijus dbrock: yes.
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03:19 dudley "we don't have to be strong typists to enjoy Strong Typing"
03:19 dudley autrijus++
03:20 obra heh
03:25 hobbs groan-o-meter++
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03:39 * Aankhen`` groans.
03:39 Aankhen`` "Scotty, beam me up"?
03:39 Aankhen`` I dislike Star Trek, and that still jumped out at me.
03:44 Aankhen`` Oh well. TSa++ # obviously understands more than me :-)
03:44 svnbot6 r6183 | fglock++ | * fixed syntax errors in /perl5 containers
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05:01 svnbot6 r6184 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - removing the container types, fglock++ is doing a much better job :)
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05:24 putter brentdax: re PCRE errors with p6 regexp - do you have a test case?  (I ask hopefully:)   It is my current obstacle on improving pugs rule support.  But I've only seen it in mutant versions of pugs.  I'd love a replicable example on unmodified pugs...  Thanks! :)
05:27 brentdax Let me see if I can get it to happen with a single module and a one-liner...
05:27 brentdax (Unfortunately, it's not the best time--I'm packing for a trip to Europe.)
05:30 putter ah, np.  whenever you get a chance.  I've backburnered it for now.
05:30 brentdax Hmm, looks like I have an unhappy Parrot.
05:30 brentdax Complaining about the fingerprint on PGE.pbc.
05:31 putter mugwump: I snarfed a copy of your dump.  Thanks!  At some point I'll stop thinking "if only I had svk, I could have done x instead" and finally switch. ;)
05:31 autrijus possibly you have different installed parrot and build path parrot.
05:31 autrijus clean out one of those.
05:33 brentdax I'm configured with Parrot embedding--do I have to rebuild Pugs after I rebuild Parrot?
05:33 autrijus yes, this is exactly like modperl.
05:33 autrijus (and for the same reason)
05:34 autrijus (when you upgrade perl to a nonbincompat version, modperl may cease working)
05:34 brentdax Okay...just `make`, or `make clean`?
05:34 autrijus rm src/Pugs/Embed/Parrot*o then make
05:34 autrijus or something like that.
05:34 putter brentdax: but beware mission creep.  brief pause in packing to see if a test is easy, ++.  longer excursion into debug land when packing needs to be done, --.  number of human neurons devoted to mastercard commercial, easily 1e8+. ;)
05:34 autrijus clean out the temp files.
05:35 brentdax putter: Heh.
05:35 autrijus putter++
05:38 brentdax Hell, I'll just make clean and let pugs rebuild itself.  That'll give me packing time anyway.
05:38 putter Yipes.  Ok, that was easy.  Just finished a fresh build of pugs on parrot 0.2.3.   Guess what 'a' ~~ /\N/ yields.  Thanks brentdax, looks like we have simple test case. :)
05:39 brentdax Heh.  Any idea how far back I'll have to go to get a working build of Parrot?  As I mentioned, I'm packing to head to another country and such...
05:39 putter checking my dog pile...
05:42 putter Ok, r6108 works.  (and a _modified_ r6110 doesnt).
05:43 brentdax Of Pugs?  Alright...
05:45 putter Of pugs.  I'm afraid I'm not sure which parrot is embedded.  From the dates, it is almost certainly 0.2.3.
05:46 * putter goes to see what r6109 and r6110 were...
05:49 * putter discovers his patch broke regexps...
05:53 putter brentdax: I'm sorry, my fault.  Would you benefit from a very fast 60 second fix to head, or shall I just fix it for real, which will take a bit more time?
05:53 putter I apologize for the time it no doubt cost you. :-(
05:54 brentdax It's alright--I've been busy with other stuff today anyway, it hasn't cost me much time.
05:54 brentdax If a real fix is possible within a few hours, that'd be great.
05:54 putter Ok.  In progress...
06:03 dduncan putter, were you at OSCON this year?
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06:04 dduncan someone with a nick like that was there, but was a female; however, your comment said 'his'
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06:11 dbrock would it cause much trouble to allow $foo-bar.moomin-snufkin as a synonym for $foo_bar.moomin_snufkin?
06:12 putter dduncan: nope...
06:12 brentdax dbrock: Is that an identifier or a math equation?
06:12 coral are you saying $foo - bar.moomin - snufkin?
06:13 dduncan so what is the nick of Ingy's girlfriend?
06:13 obra boojum
06:13 dbrock I can see that $foo-$bar might be somewhat common, but $foo-bar?
06:13 dduncan real name?
06:13 coral death
06:13 brentdax $foo-bar()?
06:13 coral er, ww
06:13 dduncan I could swear it sounded like an accented puuter
06:14 dduncan maybe my memory's just bad
06:16 dbrock brentdax: right... but do people write that?
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06:16 dbrock I guess they probably do, don't they
06:17 brentdax $foo-bar = { foo; bar }; $foo-bar();
06:18 brentdax Basically, once you do that, you start drifting into Heuristicland, which is a place language designers try to avoid.  It's the land of uncertain behavior, where the ground can shift under one function's feet because of an innocuous change 500 lines away.
06:18 dbrock I'm proposing to unambiguously (i.e., non-heuristically) make $foo-bar always mean $foo_bar
06:19 brentdax Or, less poetically: it's not *that* hard to hold the shift key.  :^P
06:19 coral wouldn't the routine that changes - to _ internally when it's an identifier be a heuristic?
06:19 dbrock s/(\w)-(\w)/\1_\2/g
06:20 coral s/(?<=\w)-(?=\w)/_/
06:20 coral anyways, i'm not being helpful and i'm not cheerleading
06:20 coral so g'night #perl6 :)
06:20 * coral zz
06:21 brentdax module DBD::mysql-1.23-cpan:TIMB;
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06:28 putter good night coral.
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06:28 svnbot6 r6185 | putter++ | r6109 introduced a bug in which p6 rules were also given to PCRE, the :perl5 rule handler, which sometimes threw an error.  Eg, 'a' ~~ /\N/ threw a 'PCRE does not support \N' error.   The bug is now gone.  But r6109's support for :global in PCRE rules is now commented out, as I failed to find a haskell phrasing to keep it in place.
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06:29 dbrock yeah yeah, but mine is just as short and easier to read, so there :-)
06:29 dbrock brentdax: no, it's not *that* hard, but I also happen to prefer hyphens to underscores when reading the identifiers
06:29 dbrock the typographical center of gravity of $foo-bar.baz-quux feels better than that of $foo_bar.baz_quux
06:29 dbrock moreover, the method call periods stand out better in the hyphenated style
06:29 dbrock brentdax: I'm not familiar with that syntax --- what does it mean?
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06:29 * dbrock is not a Perl hacker, but is in complete awe of Perl 6
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06:30 putter brentdax: r6185 removes the bug (at the cost of :global on pcre rules going back to being slightly incorrect).
06:31 dbrock what does the `::to' mean in `multi sub *coerce:as (Us $us, Them ::to) { to.transmogrify($us) }'?
06:33 wolverian it's a Type. (:: is the type sigil.)
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06:33 dbrock ah, okay
06:35 putter Ok, r6185 tests look plausible.
06:36 putter Good night folks. &
06:36 putter Safe travels brentdax.
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06:37 castaway_ sheep?
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06:44 dbrock assuming that `has Foo $foo = .new()' is sugar for `has Foo $foo = $foo.new()', is there any less redundant way to write `has Foo $foo = { Foo.new }'? --- i.e., I want a new Foo object to go with each new instance of the container
06:45 dbrock uh, I mean `has Foo $foo .= new()', not `has Foo $foo = .new()'
06:45 dbrock oh, and I mean $.foo instead of $foo :-)
06:46 jql you can initialize has?
06:47 jql oh, larry had an email about that today. never mind
06:47 dbrock I'm reading A12, and am otherwise just another clueless fan
06:47 castaway_ (oops)
06:47 castaway_ is now known as castaway
06:48 jql it works. magically. don't mind me. :)
06:49 dbrock okay, I'll try another question :-)
06:50 dbrock what is the difference between $.foo and $:foo, apart from the fact that declaration of the former will automatically define accessor methods?
06:51 jql public/private visibility
06:51 dbrock I mean, why distinguish between public and private attributes, when the real difference is in whether or not accessor methods are defined?
06:52 jql cause it's handy to have private member variables -- see various other languages we stole it from
06:52 dbrock I might have gotten this wrong, but it appears $.foo attributes are in fact not visible directly from the outside
06:52 jql indeed they aren't
06:52 dbrock they have to go through a .foo method, correct?
06:53 jql $obj.foo really calls the method on $foo, which supposedl;y returns $.foo
06:53 jql err, on $obj, but you get the idea
06:53 dbrock but that method could just as well return $:foo, couldn't it?
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06:53 jql indeed. or it could calculare sqrt(2) and return that
06:54 jql the beauty of methods
06:54 dbrock yeah, so again, what is the difference between $.foo and $:foo?
06:54 jql $.foo is automatically (and obviously) accessable from outside
06:54 dbrock can you say `has $.foo is private', or something to that effect?
06:55 jql no
06:55 jql but you can override the accessor method and make it ...
06:55 dbrock okay, so that'd have to be `has $:foo is private' (which is redundant)
06:56 jql quite redundant
06:56 jql and it's the name itself that makes it private. method :foo is also private
06:56 dbrock but if you declare $:foo and an accessor named .foo, isn't that effectively the same as declaring $.foo?
06:57 jql yes, but subclasses can access $.foo directly, while they can't $:foo
06:57 dbrock oh I get the distinction between public and private *methods*: public methods are visible from the outside, whereas private methods are only visible from within the class
06:57 dbrock aah
06:58 dbrock I hadn't considered subclasses
06:58 jql in C++ parlance, only methods can be "public". $.foo is "protected", $:foo is "private"
06:58 dbrock okay, I see.  It all makes sense now, thanks :-)
06:58 jql :)
07:00 brentdax Thank you putter.
07:00 brentdax putter++
07:20 brentdax (And yes, it does work with the fix.)
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07:41 * autrijus still at $work
07:42 autrijus the spec just changed to be much scarier :-/
07:42 castaway eep
07:42 * autrijus ponders writing this one in ocaml
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08:29 vkon looking at  util/src_to_blib.pl  I see that copying of all *.hi and *.o files is intentional, but are those really needed? May be *.hs are enough??
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08:30 integral vkon: autrijus said yesterday that the .hi and .o files are needed for pugscc.   I think he means when compiling perl6 to haskell, you need the perl6 runtime available as a library
08:31 autrijus right, that is so.
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08:32 autrijus it'd be cool if you can ar the .o into .a
08:32 autrijus and install that only
08:32 * integral wishes ghc could manage to produce shared libs
08:32 autrijus much as CORE/libperl.a does
08:32 autrijus integral: it does
08:32 autrijus at leats, cabal does
08:32 autrijus but I had not digged into how
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08:32 integral ooh
08:32 autrijus also .so only works on certain platforms
08:32 autrijus but iirc .a works on all
08:32 autrijus and we really only want .a
08:33 autrijus there's no need to have pugs628.dll currently.
08:34 vkon this means pugscc works well even on Windows? (unlike perlcc, which is troublesome?)
08:34 autrijus vkon: it's supposed to, yes.
08:34 autrijus but currently it gives
08:34 autrijus    Overlapping instances for MonadSTM IO
08:34 autrijus      arising from use of `liftSTM' at /home/autrijus/i/MainCC.hs:37:25-31
08:34 autrijus it used to work in 6.2.8 (I think) though
08:35 * brentdax watches the parrot dump load into svk (thanks, autrijus!).
08:37 autrijus np, glad to be of help :)
08:37 nothingmuch morning
08:37 autrijus yo nothingmuch.
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08:38 vkon autrijus: then src_to_blib.pl should combine all *.o into *.a ... (but this looks like asking for problems?)
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08:43 vkon wow: pugscc -we "say[*]1..@*ARGS[0]"    and then a.exe is 7Mb executable doing its work!  way good.
08:45 autrijus yeah and it would not need any runtime
08:45 autrijus you can then copy it anywhere.
08:45 gaal hello
08:45 autrijus hey gaal.
08:46 vkon autrijus: you will take a speech about pugs in Tallinn?? (sorry if this is FAQ:)
08:46 autrijus vkon: sadly the haskell workshop rejected my paper
08:47 autrijus so I'll speak about it in CUFP
08:47 autrijus but CUFP is closed-door last I heard
08:47 gaal i'll have to punt on the lexical pragma stuff, at least in the coming month
08:47 autrijus gaal: *nod*
08:47 vkon autrijus: sad indeed.... but why??
08:47 dbrock what does say[*] mean?
08:48 autrijus vkon: my english presentation is not good enough and that was my first academic paper :)
08:48 gaal will be hiking in northern turkey
08:48 vkon autrijus: you will take part as listener?
08:48 autrijus dbrock: [*] is "product"
08:48 autrijus vkon: yes
08:48 autrijus dbrock: ([*] 1,2,3) means (1*2*3)
08:48 dbrock oh
08:48 autrijus the [] is the folding -- or reduction -- metaoperator
08:48 dbrock wow, that's cool
08:49 gaal was there a verdict on identity/empty list behavior for that, btw?
08:49 dbrock this language is so awesome
08:49 autrijus gaal: no.
08:49 autrijus ?eval [*] ()
08:49 evalbot6 undef
08:49 autrijus fine with me.
08:49 gaal ?eval [/] ()
08:49 evalbot6 undef
08:50 autrijus dbrock: even better is that it works on your user-defined infix too :)
08:50 dbrock yeah, I figured as much :-)
08:50 autrijus ?eval [||] 0,0,0,3,2,1,0,0,0,3,2,1
08:50 evalbot6 3
08:50 autrijus (first-true)
08:50 gaal ?eval [//] (undefined, undefined, undefined, 7, 55)
08:50 vkon autrijus: however that paper is very interesting to read anyways
08:50 autrijus ?eval [and] 1,2,3,0
08:50 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&undefined"
08:50 evalbot6 0
08:50 gaal errrr
08:50 autrijus vkon: thank-you :)
08:51 gaal ?eval [//] (undef, undef, undef, 7, 55)
08:51 integral ?eval [//] (undef, undef, undef, 7, 55)
08:51 evalbot6 7
08:51 evalbot6 7
08:51 autrijus gaal: haskell-brained :)
08:51 wolverian I finally streamlined my *cough* working *cough* and created a personal feed aggregator. yay!
08:51 autrijus wolverian: nice!
08:51 gaal autrijus, :)
08:52 dbrock are there ternary infix operators?
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08:52 gaal ?eval bool::true ?? "moose" :: "elk"
08:52 evalbot6 'moose'
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08:52 clkao mugwump_, if you let others use your dump, be sure to ask people to use --ignore-uuid when loading it
08:52 gaal dbrock, is that whay you mean?
08:52 dbrock I want to define the ... if ... else ... operator
08:52 gaal ?? :: then.
08:53 autrijus dbrock: yes, supposedly it's
08:53 vkon ?eval "test;".say
08:53 evalbot6 test; bool::true
08:53 autrijus &ternery:< ?? :: >
08:53 autrijus or something resembling that
08:53 autrijus but pugs does not support it yet.
08:53 Aankhen`` &ternary:<?? ::> perhaps?
08:53 autrijus yeah
08:53 dbrock gaal: no, I want `a if b else c' to mean `b ?? a :: c'
08:53 Aankhen`` One sec.
08:53 gaal ahhh
08:53 wolverian that looks pythonic, somehow.
08:54 wolverian hack in list comprehensions, too, will you :)
08:54 dbrock autrijus: maybe it could just be &infix:<?? ::>?
08:54 gaal don't say that when autrijus is listenting, wolverian :)
08:54 autrijus dbrock: right, maybe that.
08:54 autrijus gaal: I did a fake list comprehension the day that userdefined infix was available
08:54 autrijus :)
08:54 wolverian yeah, I remember that. :)
08:54 gaal heh heh heh :)
08:55 dbrock what did it look like?
08:55 autrijus something silly. I no longer remember
08:55 wolverian but I don't like the 'action for items if condition' syntax. the for and if are reversed.
08:55 wolverian and I know it's cultural and resembles math notation but I still hate it.
08:55 dbrock by the way, would it even be possible to define an operator named `if'-something?
08:56 Aankhen`` Doesn't seem to be any `ternary:` category.
08:56 wolverian autrijus, { x | x <- a..b } I think. I don't think it had a condition.
08:56 wolverian but I don't remember that well.
08:56 dbrock wolverian: yeah, I too have always thought Python has that backwards
08:57 gaal eval("[ x | x <- xs, x `mod` 2 ]" :lang<haskell>)
08:57 wolverian oh, and I also hate putting options at the end of the arg list
08:57 Aankhen`` gaal: You missed a comma. :-P
08:57 gaal hmm, there's an 'even' function in haskell's prelude
08:57 gaal oops, right
08:57 scook0 is there a spec around for how type-variables (my Foo ::x) work?
08:58 wolverian there's a reason why Larry moved the m// flags to the front!!!
08:58 gaal i am a generator function yielding errrors :(
08:58 scook0 or is it just something floating around the p6l ether?
08:58 Aankhen`` gaal: Nah, just occasional typos. :-)
08:58 dbrock so wouldn't eval:lang<haskell> "..." be possible?
08:59 wolverian now that's how I like my options!
08:59 wolverian dbrock++
08:59 dbrock why is it not allowed?
08:59 Aankhen`` dbrock: You would have to specifically name the "..." parameter.
08:59 integral can't you do: eval:lang<haskell> <=== "..." ?
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09:00 wolverian I guess it's because normal arguments can be passed in as named, too?
09:00 gaal eval( :lang<haskell> code => $string) ?
09:00 Aankhen`` eval(:lang<haskell> :code<...>);
09:00 gaal again missing a comma :)
09:00 Aankhen`` Or code => '...', whichever one.
09:00 dbrock is Aankhen`` missing one too?
09:00 Aankhen`` No, commas are allowed to be omitted between pairs.
09:00 dbrock oh, okay
09:00 Aankhen`` Atleast, when they're specified using that funky syntax.
09:01 gaal which reminds me
09:01 dbrock what about eval:lang<haskell>:code<...>?
09:01 dbrock is that allowed?
09:01 gaal in the interpreter, i typed :H by mistake once
09:01 wolverian that should work, yes.
09:01 gaal and of course got
09:01 gaal ?eval :H
09:01 evalbot6 ('H' => 1)
09:01 wolverian gaal, that seems correct.
09:01 gaal should we just for the sake of user friendliness make it an alias for :h ?
09:01 wolverian but what I really want to write is: $obj.method:option(arguments)
09:01 Aankhen`` The reason why you can't put `:lang<haskell>` in front and '...' later without naming it is that in the signature of `eval`, the `lang` parameter is specified as a named parameter, whereas the `code` parameter is a positional parameter.
09:01 gaal wolverian, sure
09:02 wolverian gaal, oh, right, I didn't remember :h :)
09:02 wolverian gaal, or maybe change the prefix from : to something else?
09:02 Aankhen`` Named parameters are optional.  I hope you do understand why required parameters always have to come before optional parameters. ;-)
09:02 dbrock I actually don't :-)
09:02 Aankhen`` Hrm.
09:03 Aankhen`` Very simplified: sub foo ($foo, $bar, ?$baz, $quux) { ... } # this declares `baz` as an optional parameter, the rest as required
09:03 jql can't do that
09:03 dbrock oh, I get why that doesn't work
09:03 Aankhen`` jql: Shh.
09:03 jql optional at the end
09:03 jql :P
09:03 * jql passes? :)
09:03 Aankhen`` That is what I'm trying to explain. :-)
09:03 dbrock but make that sub foo ($foo, $bar, +$baz, $quux) { ... }
09:03 gaal another interpreter question: is it correct for :e to reload an env (including prelude) every time?
09:04 Aankhen`` dbrock: `+$baz` declares the named parameter `$baz`.  Named is optional.
09:04 dbrock why can't you call that as foo(1, 2, :baz, 3)?
09:04 jql Aankhen``: actually, that was a better example. :)
09:04 wolverian Aankhen``, ++$baz :)
09:04 dbrock (yeah, I know the signature is invalid, but it doesn't matter)
09:05 dbrock pairs are slippery in the sense that they don't easily bind to positional parameters, right?
09:05 Aankhen`` What do you mean?
09:05 wolverian hmm. how do you pass in a pair as a positional?
09:06 jql foo(my $var = :pair) ?
09:06 Aankhen`` wolverian: Not sure; maybe flatten it?
09:06 wolverian sub foo ( $x ) { ... } foo :a; # $x == :a, or "no such argument"?
09:06 wolverian jql, ewww.
09:06 jql what? you no like?
09:06 * jql chuckles
09:06 Aankhen`` In the case you gave, `foo` is being passed a single named argument (`a`) with a value of `1`.
09:07 Aankhen`` (which is, of course, incompatible with the signature)
09:07 jql what's the perl6 magical noop? it's not + anymore
09:07 dbrock I mean if you have sub foo($foo, ?$bar, +$baz) {...} and call foo(123, :baz), then $baz is 1 and $bar is undef
09:07 Aankhen`` dbrock: Yep.
09:07 dbrock so why can't you stick named arguments in between positional parameters?
09:07 wolverian Aankhen``, how do I put :a in $x then?
09:07 wolverian Aankhen``, without calling it as foo x => :a
09:08 dbrock it's not like they affect the positional parameters in any way
09:08 Aankhen`` wolverian: Er, I used "flatten" earlier... that was the opposite of what I meant.
09:08 Aankhen`` dbrock: They do, since they are optional arguments too.
09:08 wolverian Aankhen``, foo \:a? :)
09:08 Aankhen`` You can't specify "positional, positional, optional, positional".
09:09 dbrock wolverian: ISTR that happens if you declare ?$bar as a Pair
09:09 jql dbrock: I think the @Larry agree with you in principle, but it's something which could be added later without breaking anything, so I think it's been punted
09:09 Aankhen`` In the same way, you can't specify "positional, positional, named, positional".
09:09 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Pair $x) { $x.key }; foo(:a)
09:09 evalbot6 'a'
09:09 Aankhen`` ?eval sub foo (Pair $x) { $x.value }; foo(:a)
09:09 evalbot6 \1
09:09 Aankhen`` dbrock++
09:09 wolverian hmm. okay.
09:09 wolverian I still want to write $foo.meth:option(args) :)
09:10 Aankhen`` wolverian: Wha?
09:10 dbrock Aankhen``: but optional parameters in general (i.e., positional ones) affect positional ones; named parameters don't
09:10 wolverian Aankhen``, isn't it logical? think m:2nd/.../ generalised to method/sub calls.
09:10 dbrock hmm, that is one lousy formulation
09:10 wolverian of course I guess it can't work, but one can always wish.
09:10 Aankhen`` dbrock: You're probably right, come to think of it.  Now I have no answer. :-P
09:10 scook0 wolverian: but that passes (args) to (option), not to (meth), doesn't it?
09:11 Aankhen`` wolverian: Sorry dude, you lost me there.
09:11 wolverian scook0, yes.
09:11 wolverian that's obviously what I don't want. maybe force options to use <> instead of (), or something.
09:11 Aankhen`` (I am functioning on no sleep, so my ability to comprehend things is somewhat diminished)
09:12 wolverian Aankhen``, hm. $file.write:chomped($lines)
09:12 Aankhen`` Ahh, you mean placing the modifiers at the beginning.
09:12 wolverian I guess it's visually confusing if ($lines) were an arg to write instead of chomped there.
09:12 wolverian Aankhen``, yes.
09:12 Aankhen`` (as opposed to the end)
09:12 scook0 would $file.write:chomped:($lines) be able to work?
09:12 wolverian yes.
09:12 scook0 I think that was one workaround that rules had
09:12 Aankhen`` I was looking at the behaviour, rather than the syntax.  My bad.
09:13 wolverian scook0, no idea.
09:13 Aankhen`` [14:41:35] <wolverian> that's obviously what I don't want. maybe force options to use <> instead of (), or something. # please don't take away my `:foo(0)`... :-(
09:14 wolverian :!foo ;)
09:14 wolverian (or !:foo, I guess.)
09:14 Aankhen`` You can have that for your subs. :-P
09:14 Aankhen`` Hmm, time to shower.
09:14 Aankhen`` BBIAB.
09:15 gaal remind me, how do you use two* dimensional arrays in p6?   (* or n > 1)
09:15 gaal this looks wrong:
09:16 gaal ?eval my @x; @x[5][5] = 5; @x.perl
09:16 evalbot6 '[undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, [undef, undef, undef, undef, undef, 5]]'
09:16 jql w t f?
09:16 jql oh, nm. missed the inner []
09:17 * jql is blind -- sorry
09:17 gaal oh, maybe it isn't wrong? like p5 really
09:17 jql it's p5 behavior
09:17 jql allthough perl6 introduces @x[5;5]
09:17 scook0 gaal: the other elements haven't been autovivified yet
09:17 gaal right right of course
09:17 jql ?eval my @x; @x[5;5] = 10; @x.perl
09:17 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:17 jql yeah, didn't think that worked yet
09:17 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape(3; 3) = [1,2,3; 4,5,6; 7,8,9]; @foo[1][1] = 0; @foo.perl
09:17 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting expression
09:18 gaal my brain needs resurrection
09:18 jql magic semi doesn't do its thing yet
09:18 jql there a test for it in pugs?
09:18 scook0 jql: was that just syntactic sugar, or is it distinct from nested arrays (can't remember...)
09:18 jql it was syntactic sugar for anonymous array creation... then it got redefined
09:19 dbrock oh
09:19 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]; @foo[1][1] = 0; @foo.perl
09:19 evalbot6 '[((1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9)), [undef, 0]]'
09:19 jql (1, 2; 3, 4) used to mean [1, 2], [3, 4], which would've had special meaning for the postfix:<[]> op
09:19 * dbrock actually doesn't have much of a clue :-)
09:19 jql but now I dunno
09:20 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]; @foo[[1][1]] = 0; @foo.perl
09:20 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:20 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]; @foo[[1],[1]] = 0; @foo.perl
09:20 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "[" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
09:20 jql ?eval my @foo is bogus;
09:20 evalbot6 undef
09:20 jql yeah, didn't think do
09:21 dbrock :-)
09:21 scook0 ?eval my @foo is totally_awesome
09:21 evalbot6 undef
09:21 scook0 :)
09:21 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]; @foo.perl
09:21 evalbot6 '[((1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9))]'
09:22 jql ?eval my $car is bitchin will kick :your<ass>
09:22 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "w" expecting trait, "=", ".=", ":=", "::=", ";" or end of input
09:22 dbrock well that seems somewhat right anyway... right? :-)
09:22 jql will requires a block, nm
09:23 dbrock haha jql rules
09:24 QtPlatypus ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]]; @foo.perl
09:24 evalbot6 '[((1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9, 10))]'
09:24 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]; @foo.perl
09:24 evalbot6 '[(1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9)]'
09:24 dbrock hmm, your example is interesting :-)
09:24 QtPlatypus I guess array shaping isn't implemented yet.
09:24 dbrock ?eval my @foo is shape([3],[3]) = [1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]; @foo.perl
09:24 evalbot6 '[(1, 2, 3), (4, 5, 6), (7, 8, 9, 10)]'
09:25 dbrock I guess not
09:25 QtPlatypus ?eval my @foo is shape(3) = (1,2,3,4); @foo.perl
09:25 evalbot6 '[1, 2, 3, 4]'
09:26 QtPlatypus ?eval my @foo is doc("My array for containing foo") = (1,2,3,4); @foo.perl
09:26 evalbot6 '[1, 2, 3, 4]'
09:26 dbrock ?eval my @foo is doc("My array for containing foo") = (1,2,3,4); @foo.doc
09:26 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&doc"
09:27 dbrock ?eval my @foo is doc("My array for containing foo") = (1,2,3,4); @foo.meta.doc
09:27 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&doc"
09:27 * dbrock is totally clueless :-)
09:27 * QtPlatypus wonders what exactly the behavour of my example should be "Should the shaped array (1) Act in degraded mannor. (2) Throw an error. (3) Silently truncate the input"
09:28 QtPlatypus Arguments can be made for all three.
09:28 dbrock how do you get at the variable itself?
09:28 QtPlatypus How do you get at the trait do you mean?
09:28 dbrock ?eval my @foo is doc("My array for containing foo") = (1,2,3,4); \@foo.doc
09:28 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&doc"
09:28 dbrock yeah
09:29 * QtPlatypus doesn't know "I think there will be some sort of introspection, but I don't think its defined"
09:29 dbrock I figured I needed to call the method on the variable as opposed to the value referenced by the variable
09:29 jql that's the correct way -- however, the role has to exist for it to work, and it has to have a property of its own name
09:29 jql at least according to the apocalypse
09:29 dbrock oh
09:29 QtPlatypus thanks jpl.
09:30 dbrock jql: got an example of an existing role that has an eponymous property?
09:31 jql my Role bitchin { has $.bitchin }
09:32 dbrock ?eval my Role bitchin { has $.bitchin }; my $variable is bitchin; \$variable.bitchin
09:32 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting variable name or "("
09:33 * jql pokes the parser
09:33 dbrock ?eval my role bitchin { has $.bitchin }; my $variable is bitchin; \$variable.bitchin
09:33 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting variable name or "("
09:33 jql ?eval role foo {};
09:33 evalbot6 undef
09:33 jql ?eval role bitchin {};
09:33 evalbot6 undef
09:33 jql ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin; };
09:33 evalbot6 undef
09:33 dbrock ?eval my role bitchin {};
09:33 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting variable name or "("
09:33 dbrock :-)
09:33 jql can't declare lexical roles yet
09:34 jql not my fault. :)
09:34 dbrock ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin }; my $variable is bitchin; \$variable.bitchin
09:34 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&bitchin"
09:34 dbrock ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin }; my $variable is bitchin; \$variable
09:34 jql ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin; }; 0 but bitchin
09:34 evalbot6 \undef
09:34 evalbot6 Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 50}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
09:35 jql woot
09:35 dbrock gg
09:35 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:35 jql oh, there's an annoying wordy syntax
09:36 jql ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin; multi sub trait_auxiliary:is(bitchin $trait, Any $container) { ... } }
09:36 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
09:37 jql ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin; multi sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...} }
09:37 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
09:38 jql ?eval role bitchin { has $.bitchin; multi sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(bitchin $trait, Any $container:) {...} }
09:38 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
09:40 dbrock ?eval sub trait_auxiliary:<is>($trait, $container) {...}
09:40 evalbot6 undef
09:41 dbrock ?eval sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...}
09:41 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
09:41 jql it's a todo
09:41 dbrock ?eval role bitchin {}; sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...}
09:41 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
09:41 vkon ?eval $*OS
09:41 evalbot6 \undef
09:42 dbrock ?eval role Bitchin {}; sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(Bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...}
09:42 evalbot6 undef
09:42 jql w t f?
09:42 vkon ?eval $*PERLVER
09:42 evalbot6 \undef
09:42 jql ?eval role Bitchin {multi sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(Bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...} }
09:42 evalbot6 undef
09:43 dbrock haha
09:43 jql ?eval role Bitchin {multi sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(Bitchin $trait, Any $container) {...} } my $var is Bitchin
09:43 evalbot6 undef
09:43 vkon there are no version variable in pugs (like $] in perl) isn't it?
09:43 autrijus ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
09:43 evalbot6 \'Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.9, August 3, 2005 (r6185)'
09:43 jql ?eval role Bitchin {multi sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(Bitchin $trait, Any $container) {die("what?") }} my $var is Bitchin
09:43 evalbot6 undef
09:44 autrijus jql: trait_auxiliary is not handled.
09:44 jql I noticed, but I don't understand the parse error on 'b'
09:44 vkon autrijus: thanks. worth mention in docs\quickref\var, isn't it
09:44 autrijus almost all metaprogramming generic features is disabled :)
09:44 autrijus vkon: sure, commits welcome
09:44 autrijus s/disabled/TODO/
09:44 dbrock ?eval sub trait_auxiliary:<is>(int $trait, Any $container) {...}
09:44 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
09:45 dbrock that's definitely wrong, right? :-)
09:45 jql I don't get that, either
09:45 autrijus I think that's because we don't handle unboxed types :)
09:45 autrijus and as such all types are assumed to be upper cased.
09:45 dbrock is there any problem with not assuming so?
09:45 jql ahh. parser shortcut. all parameters begin with [A-Z:$%@&]
09:45 autrijus I don't think so, so feel free to change
09:46 autrijus it's in Lexer.hs line 304
09:46 autrijus change "upper" to "letter" will do, I think.
09:46 autrijus although I don't know about the _ type.
09:46 autrijus sub f (_ $trait) {}
09:46 dbrock what's the _ type?
09:46 autrijus it's a valid package name that will not be matched by "letter".
09:47 vkon autrijus: will try...  this eval bot is that one on Juerd's 'feather.perl6.nl' ??
09:47 dbrock oh, right
09:47 autrijus so maybe you want wordAlpha instead.
09:47 autrijus vkon: right
09:47 autrijus come to think about it, maybe _ is a good way to say "is typed"
09:47 autrijus as in "compiler, please fill in the type here"
09:47 autrijus my _ $x;
09:47 wolverian could we generalise ... to that? :)
09:48 autrijus I think ... is the term :)
09:48 dbrock and what does that do?
09:48 autrijus dbrock: it's a proposed feature that restricts $x to have a static type.
09:48 wolverian which is determined when the variable is first assigned something?
09:48 autrijus my $x is typed; $x = "x"; $x = length($x);
09:48 autrijus wolverian: no, which is unified via the usual inference rules
09:48 dbrock oh...
09:48 autrijus i.e. at compile time
09:48 autrijus not runtime
09:48 wolverian autrijus, I have no idea what unification means in this context :)
09:49 autrijus wolverian: it means that it gathers the three constrains
09:49 dbrock so is that equivalent to my Object $x; ... or something?
09:49 autrijus (store($x) <-- Str), (fetch($x) --> Str), (store($x) <-- Int)
09:49 autrijus and try to find a type that satisfies them
09:49 autrijus which of course fails
09:49 wolverian ah, right.
09:50 wolverian I do think a 'use static;' is more useful here.
09:50 autrijus I suggested "use traits 'typed'".
09:50 autrijus i.e. append "is typed" to all var decls.
09:50 dbrock isn't there a top type?
09:50 wolverian right. that makes sense.
09:51 autrijus dbrock: yes, but $x can't be Object because you can't guarantee fetch(Scalar of Object) can yield Str.
09:51 autrijus so top type doesn't help here.
09:51 wolverian autrijus, would the typed mode be equivalent to haskell?
09:52 dbrock so what?  Isn't it sufficient to guarantee that it can yield Object?
09:52 autrijus wolverian: or OCaml, or Scala, or Nemerle... but yes.
09:52 wolverian autrijus, right. :)
09:52 autrijus dbrock: no, because then it may contain something that cannot be stringified.
09:52 autrijus dbrock: then calling length() on it is bogus.
09:52 dbrock ah
09:52 wolverian autrijus, did you solve the undef problem you talked about on p6l?
09:52 autrijus the idea of "is typed" is make sure that runtime errors are raised
09:53 autrijus wolverian: looks like "is defined" can work
09:53 autrijus wolverian: but larry is musing something very crazy
09:53 autrijus hopefully he will elaborate.
09:53 autrijus something about defined(Str) is false.
09:54 wolverian that makes sense, and doesn't.
09:54 wolverian depending on what defined() does, I guess.
09:54 autrijus which is typically larry
09:54 autrijus so I asked for code examples :)
09:54 wolverian yeah. :)
09:55 wolverian hmm. why aren't classes called templates?
09:55 wolverian (in general.)
09:55 autrijus because templates don't have this "inheritance" thing?
09:56 autrijus ->SUPER and ->NEXT
09:56 wolverian I think various templating modules do handle that sort of a thing...
09:56 autrijus really.
09:56 autrijus usually they do INCLUDE
09:56 wolverian I think Mason has inheritance
09:56 wolverian component inheritance, anyway
09:57 autrijus that's true, but that's stretching its templating metaphor.
09:57 wolverian I guess. the undef thread just made me think about classes as templates.
09:57 wolverian idle speculation. :)
09:58 wolverian I have to go, now. I'll check back in the evening to see if Larry has elaborated.ö
09:58 autrijus the prototype-based world share you view :)
09:58 wolverian s/ö//
09:58 autrijus sure, ciao
09:58 wolverian cheers!
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10:08 autrijus dbrock: under which name should I add you to AUTHORS?
10:08 svnbot6 r6186 | vkon++ | describe more variables and reorganiza a bit quickref/var
10:13 vkon ?eval say %*CONFIG.keys
10:13 evalbot6 bool::true
10:13 vkon ?eval %*CONFIG.keys
10:13 evalbot6 ()
10:14 vkon I see quickref/var are alphabetically sorted... I didn't noticed this first time... but is this reasonable??
10:14 svnbot6 r6187 | autrijus++ | * Allow lowercase and underscore for type names, eg:
10:14 svnbot6 r6187 | autrijus++ |     sub f (foo $x) { ... }
10:14 svnbot6 r6187 | autrijus++ |   Reported by jql.
10:20 vkon ?eval %?CONFIG.keys
10:20 evalbot6 ()
10:21 autrijus disabled in safe mode.
10:22 * autrijus logs out from $work
10:22 autrijus bbl
10:22 putter has joined #perl6
10:24 vkon autrijus: see (from Run.hs)
10:25 _jql has joined #perl6
10:25 vkon autrijus: but what @=POD do? can't test it...
10:25 putter dbrock, Aankhen``, et.al.,  eval:lang<haskell> "True" should be just fine...
10:25 putter ?eval sub ev(+$lang,$code){$lang~" > "~$code}  ev :lang<haskell> "foo"
10:25 evalbot6 'haskell > foo'
10:26 putter ?eval sub ev(+$lang,$code){$lang~" > "~$code}  ev "bar" :lang<haskell>
10:26 evalbot6 'haskell > bar'
10:26 putter ?eval sub ev(+$lang,$code){$lang~" > "~$code}  ev:lang<haskell> "foo"
10:26 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "\"" expecting ":", "(", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
10:26 putter That last is a bug.  I haven't gotten around to examining it.  Please feel free... :)
10:27 putter Eventually want to be able to parse rx:foo/bar/ .
10:28 putter And  1..10 :by(2)   but adverbs on infix is completely unimplemented.
10:28 scook0 vkon: I thought that was supposed to be %=POD
10:28 scook0 but @=POD is in the source...
10:30 vkon scook0: but how it can be used? can't figure out...
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10:31 scook0 vkon: my impression was that if you say %=POD<FOO>
10:31 scook0 that gets you a string with the contents of
10:31 scook0 =FOO
10:31 scook0 in the current source file (or something like that)
10:32 vkon it does not accepts '='; may be it is not implemented??
10:32 scook0 i.e. it's a hash you can use to access all the different POD regions in the current file
10:32 scook0 vkon: I don't think it would be implemented
10:33 scook0 I was talking in terms of the spec
10:33 scook0 I don't think pugs handles POD at the moment
10:33 scook0 (could be mistaken...)
10:33 vkon scook0: aha!  where are spec?
10:34 scook0 vkon: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
10:34 vkon scook0: thanks!
10:35 scook0 there's also the Apocalypses and Exegeses, but those aren't as current
10:35 scook0 and there's a LOT of stuff that's accepted on p6l, but hasn't been written up in the Synopses
10:35 scook0 so don't take it as gospel :)
10:36 putter also  http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Perl6-Bible-0.19/  and stuff in pugs/docs/AES/
10:36 wilx has joined #perl6
10:36 svnbot6 r6188 | vkon++ | describe more variables and reorganize quickref/var, 2nd try
10:42 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has $.bar = { "bar" }; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new.baz
10:42 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
10:42 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has $.bar = "bar"; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new.baz
10:42 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
10:42 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has $.bar = { "bar" }; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new().baz()
10:42 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
10:42 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has Str $.bar; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new().baz()
10:42 evalbot6 \undef
10:42 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has Str $.bar = "bar"; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new().baz()
10:42 evalbot6 Error:  unexpected "{" expecting trait, ";" or end of input
10:42 Aankhen`` Ah.
10:43 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { has $.bar is ro; submethod BUILD () { $.bar = "bar" }; method baz () { $.bar } }; Foo.new().baz()
10:43 evalbot6 \'bar'
10:49 putter It needs some work, but appending this
10:50 putter site:dev.perl.org OR site:aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Browse/Threaded/perl6-language
10:50 putter to the phrase of interest yields an intriguing google search.  I wonder if this could be tweaked to the point of usefulness?
10:50 Aankhen`` I think it'd be more useful if you changed the second `site:` to `inurl:`.
10:52 dbrock Aankhen``: why did that avoid a parser errorL
10:52 dbrock s/L/?/
10:52 Aankhen`` dbrock: What?
10:52 putter yes!  http://www.google.com/help/operators.html  Aankhen``++
10:52 Aankhen`` :-D
10:54 Aankhen`` dbrock: Why did what avoid...?
10:59 Aankhen`` The "Changes" file for CGI.pm (Perl 5 :-) scares me.
11:00 Aankhen`` Especially the mentions of "Netscape 2.0b2".
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11:02 Aankhen`` OK, I'm almost asleep anyway, so I'm gonna go lie down in my bead and hope to finish the job.
11:02 Aankhen`` BBL. &
11:07 putter &
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11:19 putter an improved google suffix:
11:19 putter inurl:aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mail/Message/perl6-language OR inurl:www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.compiler OR inurl:dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design
11:20 putter (though something has been lost - you need to search with omitted results included to get all the relevant stuff some other searches returned...:(
11:27 putter google has 10k+ pages from rt.openfoundry.org, but no pugs; and a few pages from svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/docs/ , but not enough.  does have pugs.kwiki.org.
11:28 dbrock Aankhen``: adding the BUILD submethod
11:28 putter &
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11:29 dbrock if I wanted to have hyphens be interchangable with underscores inside identifiers, could I implement that as some kind of custom parser thing?
11:29 dbrock assuming it would be possible --- any idea of how it might look?
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11:45 scook0 dbrock: you mean like lisp-style identifiers?
11:46 scook0 I suppose in a fully-implemented Perl6 you would be able to replace the default identifier rule
11:47 scook0 (you'd probably want to s:g/-/_/ internally for compatibility with everyone else's code)
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11:54 QtPlatypus dbrock: You could do it with a macro
11:56 dbrock scook0: ah, right
11:57 dbrock (and yeah, that's what I'd do --- use underscores internally)
11:57 dbrock QtPlatypus: like wrap all my code in a macro call?
11:58 scook0 well, you'd probably end up putting it in a package
11:58 scook0 then just put 'use LispyIdentifiers' at the top of all your source files
11:58 QtPlatypus Possably.  Or an infix macro called "-" that glues the identifier together.
11:58 scook0 QtPlatypus: that would be rather inelegant...
11:59 QtPlatypus Or as scook0 says, replacing the identifier rule.
12:00 scook0 "There's more than one way to do it" # but not all of them are sensible :)
12:00 dbrock yeah, that'd obviously be the most elegant way
12:00 dbrock (well, it wasn't obvious to me when I asked the original question, but now that scook0 has mentioned it, it seems blatantly obvious :-))
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12:22 estel hi
12:23 estel have you seen iblech here lately? I'm a friend and I'm starting wondering where he is...
12:24 gaal seen iblech
12:24 jabbot gaal: iblech was seen 13 hours 21 minutes 35 seconds ago
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12:25 estel thank you, you don't have his ip (maybe he's on holidays...)
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12:30 Limbic_Region heh - patches I submitted for Parrot over a year old just got applied
12:30 * Limbic_Region is still involved with Parrot development and didn't even know it
12:32 Limbic_Region Has Pugs noticed another startup performance gain recently?
12:47 fglock has joined #perl6
12:53 Limbic_Region fglock ping
12:53 fglock hi
12:54 fglock bom dia
12:57 Limbic_Region how does the new ruling about native sets affect what you are working on
12:57 Limbic_Region from the commits I have seen - I know you have put in a lot of work on them
12:57 fglock I understand it is a new type - it is nor a List or Array
12:58 fglock more like 'Set', which is likely to be reused
12:58 Limbic_Region err um - does this mean that any/all of the modules you have created are now obsolte
12:58 Limbic_Region does it mean you can recode some of it to use a new data type
12:58 Limbic_Region and make some of the things you have already done easier
12:58 Limbic_Region or are they completely unrelated
12:58 Limbic_Region or something else entirely?
12:59 fglock Set != Ordered Set
12:59 fglock Although I would like to see ordered sets supported
13:00 Limbic_Region ok - so none of what you have done changes and it is still needed/useful
13:01 fglock yes - if you had ordered sets you could do things like (1..100) (-) (20..30) --> (1..19),(31..100)
13:01 fglock you can do this with sets, but it is a waste - and it wouldn't work with infinite lists
13:02 fglock currently you can't do (1..Inf) (-) (20..30) --> (1..19),(31..Inf)
13:02 fglock you can do this with Set::Infinite
13:03 Limbic_Region ok - I think I got it
13:03 Limbic_Region thanks
13:03 fglock too many data types
13:04 fglock i'm only starting to grok List x Array and Container x Value
13:06 fglock I guess I should rename Set::Infinite to Set::Ordered
13:19 masak has left
13:20 fglock I'm learning to switch back and forth between $x.method and $x->method
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15:05 svnbot6 r6189 | fglock++ | * perl5/Perl6::Value::List - t/array-lazy.t passes all tests
15:07 svnbot6 r6190 | iblech++ | * docs/quickref/var: Added note about p6l musing about $*ENV and $?ENV.
15:07 svnbot6 r6190 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: runjs.pl:  Added PIL2JS_RESOURCE_GUARD from pil2js.pl to runjs.pl.
15:07 justatheory has joined #perl6
15:14 svnbot6 r6191 | iblech++ | t/magicals/, t/builtins/io/: skip_rest if $*OS eq "browser".
15:18 Limbic_Region OS = browser?
15:18 Limbic_Region Emacs trying to take over the world again?
15:19 iblech No, PIL2JS :)
15:19 iblech I.e. JavaScript
15:26 * Limbic_Region was of course kidding
15:26 svnbot6 r6192 | fglock++ | * perl5/ List passes grep(), map() tests
15:32 hexmode I'm pretty sure the world is already ruled by emacs
15:32 * hexmode ducks and covers
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15:38 stevan iblech: someone was looking for you earlier
15:38 svnbot6 r6193 | fglock++ | * perl5 List - map, grep working - "coro-less"
15:38 svnbot6 r6194 | fglock++ | * updated TODO
15:39 iblech stevan: Yep, talked to him, thanks for noticing :)
15:39 stevan iblech: cool :)
15:39 fglock has quit IRC ("I am going away")
15:39 * iblech fixed -CPIL not printing multi sub decls, committing in a minute
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15:40 stevan iblech++ :)
15:40 iblech Thanks :)
15:42 svnbot6 r6195 | iblech++ | Pugs.Compile: -CPIL prints multi sub decls now. (It's a 2-line patch,
15:42 svnbot6 r6195 | iblech++ | (Haskell's conciseness++) :))
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16:18 scrottie uploading to slowass. this will take about an hour ;)
16:18 svnbot6 r6196 | brentdax++ | Initial Pugs checkin.
16:18 scrottie ack, wrong window.
16:18 * scrottie looks at svnbot6, startled
16:18 brentdax ...crap, didn't mean to do that.
16:21 autrijus what the...
16:21 * autrijus takes swift action.
16:22 autrijus ...you beat me to it. ;)
16:22 chip_ autrijus: could you give me a quick answer how hoisting is supposed to work given the presence of   { my $x; { my $x; $x = 1 } }
16:22 autrijus chip_: note the inner scope is a closure.
16:22 brentdax Wow, I screwed things up.  Sorry.
16:22 autrijus i.e. a Code.
16:24 chip_ it's a Code in principle, but given the "as-if" rule I'm not planning to make it a real Code
16:24 svnbot6 r6197 | autrijus++ | ...undo...
16:24 chip_ darn it, I have to go.  transportation
16:24 chip_ grr
16:24 autrijus chip_: a inner label is as good as a inner routine, no?
16:24 * chip_ &
16:24 autrijus oh well. ciao
16:24 chip_ not for pad reasons
16:24 chip_ labels dont' have pads
16:24 * chip_ & really
16:25 autrijus I suggest that I can hang pads to labels.
16:25 autrijus or I'll use a real inner routine for it.
16:25 autrijus ciao :)
16:26 autrijus brentdax: it's fine, you wasted maybe 10 bytes on the repository
16:26 * autrijus praises svk, lazy copy
16:26 brentdax True.  Hurray for cheap copies.
16:26 Limbic_Region autrijus - so you don't go back to $work till next Monday right?
16:26 autrijus Limbic_Region: right, I plan to give PIL another push this weekend
16:27 autrijus however I need to sleep first :)
16:27 Limbic_Region right
16:27 autrijus clkao++ # cheap copies across offline repositories and back
16:28 brentdax I'll try using 'pull' instead of 'sync' from now on.  ;^)
16:28 clkao damnit, I am so cheap!
16:28 autrijus clkao++ # cheap and cheerful!
16:29 Limbic_Region autrijus - as you have a pretty good handle on who is concentrating on what - who, if anyone, is focusing on implementing more of the spec'd p6 into Pugs
16:29 * Limbic_Region was suprised to hear you estimate only 25% of the spec'd language has been implemented
16:29 autrijus Limbic_Region: note that of the remaining 75%, over half was vaguely, badly, or inconsistently specced.
16:30 autrijus which we don't really notice until we go ahead and implement them anyway.
16:31 brentdax Proof that you only use 20% of the language for 80% of your tasks...
16:31 autrijus indeed.
16:31 autrijus or
16:31 autrijus Proof that perl6 is a 10x richer language than perl5.
16:31 autrijus ;)
16:32 * brentdax is vaguely tempted to fake MMD with nested hashes.
16:33 brentdax (or rather, MMD with arbitrary constraints.)
16:33 autrijus you mean value mmds
16:33 autrijus yeah.
16:34 brentdax I figure I could do %adapter{$revision.attributes<kontent:class>}{$request.mode}{$request.format}, then try undefing one, then two.  Or something.  But that would be insane.
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16:36 autrijus how did you survive in p5? :)
16:37 brentdax I could have written this project in Perl 5 anytime if I thought the language was up to it.
16:41 brentdax With Pugs I at least know the hacks are temporary.  I couldn't stand them being permanent.
16:43 brentdax Gah, I hate how when you pack the night before, you always end up needing stuff you've packed the next morning.
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16:54 * autrijus proceeds to defend inferencing some more.
16:57 fglock autrijus: set operations are list ops?
16:58 fglock or will be a separate entity for sets
16:58 autrijus fglock: just provide two coercers. :)
16:59 autrijus Set.to_list and List.to_set
16:59 autrijus chip_: larry lifted the ban!
17:00 autrijus the ban on documenting about named returns :)
17:00 * autrijus is happy
17:00 autrijus sub f ($x --> $y) { $y = $x * 2; say "I return $y anyway!" }
17:00 fglock 1..Inf.to_set could yield a Span object - you can do 1..Inf intersection -Inf..10 and get 1..10
17:01 autrijus fglock: right. that'd be cool
17:03 fglock *shift doesn't call the core shift, it calls the method
17:03 autrijus you need &*shift
17:03 autrijus otherwise it's taken as slurpizing shift().
17:04 fglock :)
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17:11 autrijus sub init_dbh (--> DBI $dbh) { $dbh .= connect('dbi:...'); $dbh.do('some init code'); say "I return $dbh no matter what :-)" }
17:17 integral eww, how fortranish :)
17:19 PerlJam fortranish?
17:21 stevan reminds me of "out" parameters in Ada
17:22 autrijus I don't think it's a bad idea :)
17:22 autrijus (but yes it's very fortranish.)
17:22 autrijus it also enables
17:22 autrijus sub foo (+$dbh) { ... }
17:22 autrijus and then
17:23 autrijus foo(init_dbh())
17:23 autrijus without explicitly passing in the name
17:23 autrijus (not sure it's a feature, but it falls out naturally)
17:23 integral foo init_dbh; # more perlish
17:24 ods15 if((a=p[m]&~15)&&a==p[m-1]>>4?(!(++n^1)&&!(U[n-1]=p[m-1]&15))||(U[n]=p[m]&15)<<1:n){
17:25 autrijus yeah.
17:25 ods15 i'm trying out for ioccc
17:25 ods15 do i have a chance :/
17:25 ods15 tbh, i think not
17:25 autrijus you can learn to program in J instead.
17:26 ods15 my program is mostly just ugly, not obfuscated :/
17:26 autrijus # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_programming_language
17:26 autrijus  qsort =: ]`(($:@:((}.<:{.)#}.)),{.,($:@:((}.>{.)#}.)))@.(*@#)
17:30 ods15 i've seen worse. i think
17:33 autrijus oh?
17:33 coral ow ow
17:34 coral the source to formail looks like what you said, ods15
17:34 ods15 formail?
17:34 ods15 F(j,9,0)n=(m=r[j*9+i].i)+r[i+j*9].t,x[n?m:1]-=0&y[r[j+i*9].i]--||n?!z[r[L(i,j)].i]--|1:(j=0,3);
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17:35 ods15 F(i,10,1)i=b->n[i]?main(Q(r+((V*)memcpy(b+1,r,!~3+sizeof(r))-1)->p,b->i=i),0)?
17:35 ods15 b->i+(memcpy(r,b+1,sizeof(r))&&0):1:i;
17:35 ods15 for(a=(k[10]==n)*9;a--||(m++,n=0);)F(i,9*!!(p[m]&(8<<(a+2))),(k[i]?R(c,i):1));
17:35 ods15 those are all my best expressions
17:36 ods15 the rest are nowhere near as good, and even these are not that good :/
17:37 fglock i'm debugging perl5/Lazy for half an hour - can't find the bug
17:37 ods15 as perl programmers i was wondering if you guys can help me obfuscate...
17:38 fglock ods15:  i'm trying to learn to do the opposite :)
17:39 ods15 http://rafb.net/paste/results/M9AM4o72.html
17:39 ods15 that's an out of date version actually.. my newer version is about 300-400 bytes smaller and hasn't been formatted yet
17:40 ods15 the design IS supposed to mean something, but it's hardly understandable, only if you already know it...
17:43 autrijus journal up. /me waves &
17:43 dduncan alright
17:43 obra night
17:45 ods15 bite
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18:06 mauke sizeof(*p)? how boring
18:08 mauke I'd use sizeof*p or sizeof n or sizeof L(3, 'x')
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18:24 svnbot6 r6198 | fglock++ | * perl5/ List - almost all tests pass
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18:36 ods15 mauke: ?
18:36 ods15 what's sizeof L(3, 'x') ?
18:36 mauke do you know what sizeof is?
18:37 ods15 well, i know it's a C construct, not a function...
18:37 ods15 hmm, a keyword.. meaning is can tolerate not having ()...
18:38 ods15 anyway, finally, this one is the first good expression i made using recursions.. (i have a recursive main(), but it's not a very good recursion)
18:38 ods15 T Q(t,o)V*t;{u t->i?o&16?t->t=0:(t->n[o+1]=Q(t,R(L((t->p%9/3+t->p/27*3),o),R(o*9+t->p%9,
18:38 ods15 R(o+t->p/9*9,t->i)))?o-1:e)):(e=t->i=o)&&Q(t,8);}
18:38 mauke sizeof is a (unary) operator
18:38 mauke the nice thing about it is that it doesn't evaluate its operand
18:38 ods15 mauke: ok, but what's that 'L' thing got to do with it
18:39 mauke that's a function in the source
18:39 ods15 yeah, it only cares about the typeof
18:39 ods15 hmm, so, if i have some functions which returns typeof *p, i can use it there, and it will never be called?
18:40 mauke yes
18:40 mauke typeof *p seems to be int, so sizeof printf("hello") would work
18:40 ods15 hmm, yeah, that one is an int
18:41 ods15 i got another sizeof though for a struct
18:41 ods15 and none of my functions return that struct, it's global
18:42 ods15 no, wait, it's a sizeof of the entire array
18:42 mauke (2<<5)^17 is the same as 2<<5^17
18:42 mauke typedef struct {...} V; "better" written as struct {...} typedef V;
18:42 ods15 that's odd, i thought i removed all redundant ()
18:43 ods15 ohhh, it's the one in the very begginning
18:43 ods15 lol, i hadn't touched that part in quite a while, i just needed to spazz up a const :)
18:43 mauke there are many redundant () there
18:44 mauke sizeof(r) => sizeof r
18:44 mauke .deparse :p (p[m]&~15)&&(p[m]>>4==p[m-1]>>4)
18:44 mauke p[m] & ~15 && p[m] >> 4 == p[m - 1] >> 4
18:44 mauke no parens needed
18:44 ods15 mauke: i think that one has already been fixed
18:44 ods15 if((a=p[m]&~15)&&a==p[m-1]>>4? \ (!(++n^1)&&!(U[n-1]=p[m-1]&15))||(U[n]=p[m]&15)<<1: \
18:45 ods15 yeah
18:45 ods15 some are to prevent compiler warnings, my program compiles cleaning without warning in -Wall
18:46 ods15 hmm, that's a bug! .. ?
18:47 ods15 odd that it worked
18:47 ods15 that '<<1' should've been '>>4'
18:48 mauke still too many parens
18:49 mauke but I guess gcc warns about && in ||
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18:50 ods15 mauke: yes
18:50 ods15 that's the only redundant paranthesis there
18:50 ods15 anyway, the new version...
18:51 ods15 http://rafb.net/paste/results/PfdeWb36.html
18:51 ods15 afaik not a single redundant () there, except sizeof
18:51 mauke wow, C++ rocks: int x ; :: new (& x) int ( 42);
18:52 ods15 mauke: ??
18:52 mauke it compiles
18:53 ods15 what is it though
18:53 ods15 new is a keyword, not a function, so i'm not sure what ::new() does...
18:54 mauke putchar((putchar(p++->i+3*16)&1<<5)-22*!(i%9)) could be rewritten as putchar(putchar(p++->i+3*16)%2*32-22*!(i%9))
18:54 ods15 i didn't even know new could get a 9&)
18:54 mauke that's just placement new
18:54 ods15 (&x) i mean
18:54 mauke that's how you tell it to construct an object at a specified address
18:55 mauke it should be equivalent to x = 42;
18:55 ods15 putchar(p++->i+3*16)%2*32 - i don't get it.. how would this work?
18:55 mauke hmm, or not
18:55 mauke haha, I'm an idiot
18:55 ods15 mauke: and it destroys the previous object?
18:55 mauke no, it doesn't call any destructors
18:55 ods15 it should...?
18:55 mauke never mind, my "rewrite' is wrong
18:56 mauke it's useful if you want to implement a container like std::vector
18:56 ods15 but, i think it should call the destruct is x's type is some kind of weird advanced thing
18:57 ods15 because it's basically overwriting it
18:57 mauke you can get a chunk of memory with new char[x], then construct objects in it with new (buf) T;
18:57 ods15 if x was pointwer, it would be like:   delete x; x = new something
18:57 ods15 anyway, forget it, i hate C++
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19:00 ods15 anyway, my next TODO is to make it "pretty print"
19:00 ods15 instead of dull output
19:00 ods15 2 8 6 9 1 3 7 5 4
19:00 ods15 3 9 1 5 7 4 6 8 2
19:00 ods15 1 4 3 | 5 8 6 | 2 9 7
19:00 ods15 ======+=======+======
19:00 ods15 8 9 4 | 2 1 5 | 7 6 3
19:00 ods15 like that
19:01 ods15 i can easily do it with more putchars(), but putchar is an expensive funxtion name...
19:01 ods15 it won't fit easily in my formatting later, and it's a lot of bytes
19:04 ods15 mauke: any ideas?
19:04 ods15 maybe puts
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19:32 kolibrie stevan: ping
19:33 stevan kolibrie: pong
19:33 pdcawley pang
19:33 kolibrie stevan: about to commit 20_000_ft_view.txt
19:34 stevan kolibrie: nice!
19:34 kolibrie in response to your adding my name to your 10_000 ft view
19:34 stevan :P
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19:35 masak at which altitude will the file contain just one dot? :)
19:35 kolibrie stevan: r6200
19:35 kolibrie what a nice number that is
19:35 svnbot6 r6199 | kolibrie++ | initial import of metamodel 20_000_ft_view.txt
19:35 kolibrie oh, 6199
19:35 stevan masak: orbital_view.txt
19:36 masak oh :)
19:37 kolibrie stevan: I was planning on sending a post to p6c, to kick off discussion
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19:38 nothingmuch evening
19:38 kolibrie hi nothingmuch
19:38 stevan evening nothingmuch
19:38 kolibrie that made a nice pyramid
19:40 * kolibrie hits send
19:41 stevan kolibrie: cool
19:41 svnbot6 r6200 | masak++ | spelling
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ | PIL2JS:
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ | * Unbreak Test.pm procompilation (was broken because -CPIL outputs the multi
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ |   &Test::skip now -- needs proper multi support in PIL2JS).
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ | * Speed up compilation by 300% or so by not indenting the output unless
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ |   explicitely wanted -- i.e. ":js ..." in the interactive shell still outputs
19:44 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ |   indented code, but Prelude.js is mostly unindented. This also fixes the
19:45 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ |   problem that compiling t/operators/arith.t takes 1.5 GiB of RAM...
19:45 svnbot6 r6201 | iblech++ | * Rewrote the indenting code to use a regex instead of manually splitting and joining.
19:45 integral 1.5GiB :-/
19:46 Khisanth and I thought compiling pugs itself was bad...
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19:50 stevan kolibrie: should I respond with changes/updates/clarifications on p6c? or add to the doc?
19:51 stevan ok, not seeing a p6c post yet, so I will update svn :)
19:52 kolibrie stevan: whichever - the post should be coming - but svn is the "master"
19:53 stevan ok
19:54 svnbot6 r6202 | iblech++ | Prelude::JS::ControlFlow: Fix if $junc {...} and unless $junc {...} (was
19:54 svnbot6 r6202 | iblech++ | incorrectly autothreading).
19:59 svnbot6 r6203 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: PIL::Params: Always $?SELF := invocant in methods.
20:01 * nothingmuch is hearing sirens and automatic gun fire
20:01 nothingmuch you'd think I was in israel or something
20:01 Khisanth you're not?
20:01 jhorwitz has quit IRC ("Chatzilla 0.9.67 [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
20:01 nothingmuch ;-)
20:02 nothingmuch silliness aside - this is a quiet part of israel, and the sirens and gunfire were unrelated
20:02 nothingmuch i expect possibly more sirens later in response to the gunfire, but i think the first ones were an ambulance
20:03 nothingmuch the gunfire we get around here is usually beduim tribes duking it out because someone's sister had a crush on a guy from another family
20:03 masak romeo and juliet theme
20:04 masak nothingmuch: are you in any danger?
20:05 nothingmuch masak: i don't think so
20:05 * nothingmuch has a good feeling about the snail-mail mailbox
20:06 * nothingmuch goes to check (an excuse to ride my bike)
20:06 masak :)
20:07 nothingmuch shit... my bike is stuck in piles of books and I can't wedge it out
20:08 masak i hate when that happens
20:08 nothingmuch yeah, we're rennovating
20:08 Khisanth read faster! :P
20:08 masak lol
20:08 nothingmuch Khisanth: i can't read german and these are mostly in german, and not mine, either
20:08 nothingmuch mostly my mother's
20:08 masak then i guess your bike is stuck
20:09 Khisanth hmm burn the books!
20:09 nothingmuch yes, it is, till they finish retiling our floors and we can refill the bookshelves
20:09 masak maybe someone else who knows german can read them and remove them?
20:09 nothingmuch Khisanth: they're in my room, next to my: bed, books, bass, furniture
20:09 masak you should ask TSa for help
20:10 masak or stevan
20:10 nothingmuch heh =)
20:10 nothingmuch 'rents read german, so that's not a problem, and most of these books were already read
20:10 sapper has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:10 nothingmuch anyway, i'm going to go by car =(
20:10 masak ...if it's not obstructed by giant servers :)
20:14 svnbot6 r6204 | iblech++ | PIL2JS:
20:14 svnbot6 r6204 | iblech++ | * PIL::Params: Don't autothread junctions if in Bool context. (To be
20:14 svnbot6 r6204 | iblech++ |   fair, I'm not really checking if we're in Bool context (that'd need some more
20:14 svnbot6 r6204 | iblech++ |   work on the -CPIL side as well), but if the param expects a Bool.)
20:14 svnbot6 r6204 | iblech++ | * PIL::Params: Params which expect Pairs do not participate in named binding.
20:16 masak has left
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20:18 Khisanth nothingmuch: walk!
20:18 nothingmuch Khisanth: too lazy time wise
20:19 nothingmuch bike is quick, car is quick and cumbersome, walk is slow
20:20 nothingmuch anywho, good news - my new pocket knife has arrived. I bought it 3 months ago when I was supposed to go camping, but they ran out of stock. Camping was subsequently delayed till cancellation, and now the knife arrives just as plans for camping are reformulating
20:21 nothingmuch this is possibly a good sign, since it could mean that camping might actually happen this time around
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20:34 svnbot6 r6205 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: README: Updated to current status (no return exceptions any more, but CPS).
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20:56 svnbot6 r6206 | fglock++ | * perl5/ List - only 2 bugs left
21:07 svnbot6 r6207 | Stevan++ | 20,000 ft view - updates, clarifications and corrections to kolibrie++ document
21:10 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:14 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
21:14 Aankhen`` G'night.
21:14 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("My operat~1 system unders~1 long filena~1 , does yours? [Time wasted online: 2hrs 58mins 44secs]")
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21:27 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:27 kolibrie stevan: thanks for your clarifications and corrections
21:27 * kolibrie will ponder overnight
21:28 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:31 hexmode has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ |   * Unbreak subs which take params which are not Any or Pair (was broken
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ |     because of r6204).
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ |   * return(...) always jumps out of the enclosing subroutine, not block/whatever.
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ |   * Still haven't figured out why .pairs does not work 100% correctly, seems to
22:03 svnbot6 r6208 | iblech++ |     have to do with pairs, will investigate further tomorrow.
22:05 iblech Night all :)
22:05 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
22:16 fglock has left "Fui embora"
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ | * perl5/ List
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |   - all tests pass!
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |   - Removed pair() - this module does not has access to the Pair constructor
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |   - updated MANIFEST
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |   - Separate from_num_range() and from_range() constructors.
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |      - from_num_range() is a numeric range.
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |      - from_range() is a generic range for strings, etc.
22:16 svnbot6 r6209 | fglock++ |      Both constructors are just new() wrappers.
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