Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-08-12

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:58 mikael what are the reasons (if any) for yada-yada-yada-ing subs without giving a prototype, as in "sub foo { ... }"?
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02:01 svnbot6 r6210 | fglock++ | * perl5/ List - fixed a portability bug
02:01 svnbot6 r6210 | fglock++ |   (Windows "Int" stringification)
02:01 svnbot6 r6210 | fglock++ | * perl5/ Array - builds ok, passes a couple of tests
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04:50 xinming anyone here can tell me if what the differences between := and ::= are?
04:50 autrijus xinming: ::= is := at BEGIN time.
04:51 autrijus i.e. compile time
04:51 autrijus see docs/quickref/namespace
04:51 autrijus bbiab
04:52 xinming http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/quickref/namespace page not found. :-S
04:53 autrijus in pugs
04:53 autrijus not p6
04:54 autrijus &
04:58 xinming autrijus: could you please give me the exact url? :-S
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05:21 coral docs or doc?
05:22 coral xinming: start by locating the pugs svn repository
05:22 coral i don't know the precise url but the two in the topic are good
05:22 coral second, look in docs/quickref/namespace inside that repository
05:22 coral if the word 'pugs' isn't in the url you're probably in the wrong place.
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05:32 putter http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs​/trunk/docs/quickref/namespace  http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Pr​oject/Source/index.html/pugs/checkou​t/docs/quickref/namespace?rev=5944
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06:22 svnbot6 r6211 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - (p5)
06:22 svnbot6 r6211 | Stevan++ | * begun converting pugs tests (t/oo/) to the metamodel
06:22 svnbot6 r6211 | Stevan++ |   to see how many we can pass
06:22 svnbot6 r6211 | Stevan++ | * fixed Perl6::Object::BUILD to ignore named args which
06:22 svnbot6 r6211 | Stevan++ |   are not attributes
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06:46 vkon docs/AES/S28draft.pod is very messy
06:47 castaway_ then fix it, dear henry
06:51 vkon sure...
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07:11 GeJ hello gentlemen
07:14 ods15 all your base are belong to us
07:15 * castaway feels left out :)
07:18 ods15 puts() writes the string s and a trailing newline to stdout. - bleh, wtf, why a trailing new line :/
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07:22 castaway because its puts .. use a different method :)
07:24 ods15 it's the only function name for this that is this short
07:25 ods15 'printf' is very long, 6 chars..
07:25 castaway awww.. how terrible
07:25 castaway go use assembler :)
07:28 ods15 castaway: i'm trying out for ioccc
07:28 castaway ah well :)
07:28 ods15 anyway i hacked around it, made it so i only call puts when i actually need a newline
07:28 ods15 but now i need to re-obfuscate this...
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08:00 Aankhen`` (quoting 5 relevant lines and 50 irrelevant lines before replying)--
08:03 ods15 you forgot the '$'
08:03 ods15 i think
08:03 ods15 not sure how perl goes
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08:06 svnbot6 r6212 | Stevan++ | Mini-MetaModel - Bootstrapped and tested in less then 200 lines
08:06 * Aankh|Clone sings the "I Hate Powercuts" song.
08:07 Aankh|Clone Mini-MetaModel? :-o
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08:08 Aankh|Clone Hi pdcawley.
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08:11 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 61.246.34.89 pasted "`nmake` fails on Win32" (13 lines, 764B) at http://sial.org/pbot/12405
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08:12 Aankhen`` Halp!
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08:30 autrijus Aankhen``: hm. what did you change?
08:30 autrijus does your PATH contain an alternate ld?
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09:06 QtPlatypus Does anyone have any sort of comment on the Lazy IO edge case I pointed out on p6l?
09:06 Aankhen`` autrijus: I didn't change anything... it built fine last night, it's not building today.
09:07 castaway it was the pixies, Aankhen``
09:08 autrijus Aankhen``: weird... did "make clean" help?
09:08 autrijus let me boot to win32 to see if I can duplicate this.
09:08 autrijus a sec.
09:09 Aankhen`` I always run `make clean` before syncing up and building.
09:10 Aankhen`` (in other words, it didn't help :-)
09:10 autrijus ok. brb. :)
09:16 svnbot6 r6213 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
09:16 svnbot6 r6213 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL::PApp, PIL::Cont: Undefine all params after they have been used,
09:16 svnbot6 r6213 | iblech++ |   to reduce memory usage of the JS engine. Sadly, it only helps 3 MiB...
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09:19 autrijus nmaking...
09:30 autrijus Aankhen``: it worksforme.
09:30 autrijus Aankhen``: try "nmake pil"
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09:31 autrijus 17:30 < autrijus> Aankhen``: it worksforme.
09:31 autrijus 17:30 < autrijus> Aankhen``: try "nmake pil"
09:32 Aankh|Clone OK.
09:32 Aankh|Clone Went to "Linking...", then exited.  Is that supposed to happen?
09:32 autrijus type "pil.exe"
09:33 autrijus then "say 123"
09:33 Aankh|Clone Whoa, mondo output.
09:33 autrijus then ":q"
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09:33 Aankh|Clone Done.
09:33 autrijus so ghc is fine
09:33 autrijus linker too
09:33 autrijus somehow the main pugs doesn't like you
09:33 Aankh|Clone :-(
09:33 autrijus if you just erase Lexer.o and "nmake"
09:33 * Aankh|Clone sings of unrequited love.
09:34 Aankh|Clone A'right.
09:36 bloves has left
09:37 Aankh|Clone Cool, that worked.
09:37 autrijus hrmph. :)
09:37 Aankh|Clone Now to install.
09:37 * Aankh|Clone crosses his fingers.
09:38 Aankh|Clone My kingdom for a build system that doesn't trigger re-compilation when you try to install Pugs!
09:39 Aankh|Clone Yay, it worked.
09:39 Aankh|Clone autrijus++
09:39 autrijus :)
09:39 autrijus if you don't want recompilation, edit config.yml
09:40 autrijus and turn off the prelude compilation.
09:40 Aankh|Clone The Prelude isn't pre-compiled during the regular build?
09:40 Aankh|Clone (i.e. when you type `nmake`)
09:40 autrijus it is, but the dependency detection is faulty
09:40 autrijus so it retriggers no matter what
09:40 Aankh|Clone I see.
09:40 autrijus ideally it should only retrigger if Prelude.pm is touched.
09:40 autrijus fixes... welcome.
09:41 Aankh|Clone Do you know which part of the build system handles this?
09:41 autrijus yes, util/build_pugs.pl
09:41 Aankh|Clone OK.
09:41 Aankh|Clone Let me see if I can do anything at all...
09:41 autrijus but only gaal really groks all of it I think.
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11:04 kgftr|konobi clkao: Brownie points for a version of cvsup that understands SVN/SVK
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11:04 svnbot6 r6214 | autrijus++ | * Style cleanup on MiniMetaModel.pl to simplify mental effort needed for Visiolization
11:04 svnbot6 r6215 | autrijus++ | * even more clarifications.
11:04 svnbot6 r6216 | autrijus++ | * more comments
11:19 clkao kgftr|konobi: i have a svkup branch
11:20 * castaway waves to kgftr|konobi
11:20 kgftr|konobi castaway: yullo! we should be seeing you real soon!
11:21 kgftr|konobi clkao: url?
11:21 castaway yes indeedy
11:21 clkao in the svk repository
11:21 * castaway is flogging off extra junk on ebay (doing well so far :)
11:22 clkao it even works across different mirrors. but needs more polishing
11:23 kgftr|konobi clkao: nice... trying to find something to replace CVSup that's nicer... but we use it not just for doing RCS stuff, but also file based push mirroring
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13:36 fglock hi
13:51 Limbic_Region salutations
13:51 fglock bom dia Limbic_Region
13:52 Limbic_Region sure is - my wife's bday today and it is Friday
13:53 fglock congratulations to her.
13:53 fglock i didn't notice it was friday. this was a short week for me
13:53 iblechbot has joined #perl6
13:54 Limbic_Region I don't have a tendency to forget what day of the week it is, but I am often unsure of the date (or even the month for that matter)
13:54 fglock :)
13:54 fglock i was thinking about starting documenting the runtime API
13:55 * castaway wishes Jean a happy b'day
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13:55 castaway (And hopes shes well too :)
13:55 fglock before we have too many implementations
13:55 Limbic_Region mostly castaway, I will relay your well wishes
13:56 castaway good good
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13:59 * fglock is helping create a new PM group in Salvador, Bahia. but I've never been there :(
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14:00 coke heo. has it been documented if/how system() is going to change in perl6  yet?
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14:05 coke hey, pdc.
14:05 pdcawley_ hey coke
14:06 coke you seen anything on how system() might change in perl6?
14:06 mikael is there ever a reason to yada-yada-yada a sub without giving a prototype, as in "sub foo { ... }"?
14:07 mikael (except for documentation purposes)
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14:07 castaway who needs prototypes?
14:07 fglock mikael: I use it as a "TODO" reminder
14:09 mikael fglock: ah, yes, that's a good reason :-)  kinda like ``foo = undefined'' in haskell
14:10 pdcawley_ coke: I assume it'll fail on failure and return true on success...
14:11 coke (i know someone who's going to write a wrapper in perl5 for CPAN, just wondering if there was something he could use to make it forward compatible.)
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15:18 stevan autrijus: ping
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15:59 svnbot6 r6217 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - t/array-lazy.t passes all tests
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16:03 autrijus stevan: pong
16:03 autrijus http://pugscode.org/images/metamodel.png
16:04 ods15 THAT'S IT
16:04 ods15 http://rafb.net/paste/results/TSWb8Y12.html
16:04 ods15 2048 bytes, ends with a smiley, and had 4 out of 5 algorithms
16:04 ods15 i ain't touching that shit any friggin more. gonna leave it like that for the next entire year till i submit it...
16:05 ods15 some of the constants could be spazzed up a little bit...
16:05 ods15 as far as i can tell, there are no memleaks/segfaults, but this code DOES cause 'tcc -b' to crash :(
16:09 stevan autrijus++ # pretty pictures
16:09 masak autrijus: ::Point? what's that?
16:09 stevan masak: it is just a random user class
16:09 stevan and instance
16:09 stevan $point
16:10 kolibrie autrijus: are the blocks an instance, and the cylindar+cone a package?
16:10 stevan kolibrie: I think so,..
16:10 masak stevan: ah, thx
16:11 autrijus stevan: please check for sanity
16:11 stevan autrijus: I am
16:12 autrijus in particular, I'd like to map the greeks to your 10kft notation
16:12 stevan autrijus: how did you like the mini-metamodel ?
16:12 autrijus stevan: it helped a lot :)
16:12 stevan :)
16:12 autrijus except it bootstraps differently :)
16:12 stevan yes
16:12 autrijus but I figured out
16:12 stevan no Class
16:12 autrijus at long as the Universe API remains compatible
16:12 autrijus the Metaverse bootstrap can take various paths.
16:12 stevan it actually started out as an experiment in removing Class
16:14 stevan it is also single inheritence
16:14 autrijus yeah, which is why I changed @:super to $:super
16:14 kolibrie autrijus: can you add the blocks and cylindar+cone to the legend?
16:14 autrijus kolibrie: sure
16:14 kolibrie thanks
16:17 masak any special reason why the 'theos' and 'pneuma' boxes are larger than the boxes corresponding to ::Point?
16:18 dudley I think because point is "merely" a user level class and not part of the Meatmodel
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16:19 dudley At least that's how I interpreted it.
16:19 masak dudley: hmm. doesn't seem very fair
16:19 masak don't know if it matters though
16:20 kolibrie of course, point has two sets of boxes, user and meta
16:20 masak you mean they sorta have to split the area between them? :)
16:21 kolibrie something like that
16:22 autrijus re-uploading.
16:22 autrijus done.
16:23 kolibrie ah, point's boxes got upgraded!
16:23 autrijus yeah :)
16:23 kolibrie autrijus++ # pretty pictures
16:24 autrijus I can't figure out how to show the fact that the MetaClass class on the left is magically mapped to the ::Class on the right.
16:24 autrijus so I gave up and merely listed them on the same row.
16:25 kolibrie well, isn't that what the purple meta line is for?
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16:27 autrijus yeah, although it's kind of subtle
16:28 kolibrie worked for me
16:28 masak autrijus++ # much better box sizes :)
16:29 kolibrie the left-hand column, with gnosis, metamorph, and genesis, does that show the bootstrap?
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16:31 autrijus yes.
16:31 autrijus re-re-uploading.
16:33 autrijus the sequence is (I think): gnosis -> demiurge -> logos -> pneuma -> metamorph -> genesis
16:34 * kolibrie tries to follow the path
16:34 autrijus but is really just gnosis (demiurge) -> metamorph -> genesis (theos), and logos/pneuma is parallel
16:34 autrijus (which is what the path shows)
16:34 autrijus (metasyntactic names
16:34 autrijus )++
16:35 kolibrie ok, so gnosis is the class for the demiurge instance
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16:39 svnbot6 r6218 | Stevan++ | MiniMetaModel - adding the class_precedence_list to the $Class
16:39 svnbot6 r6219 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - t/array-fetch-store passes all tests
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16:42 autrijus_ kolibrie: no, gnosis is just instance data.
16:42 autrijus_ I re-re-uploaded.
16:43 autrijus_ metamorph adds more things to gnosis
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16:43 autrijus_ (via the add_meth special magic)
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16:43 autrijus then genesis add a superclass
16:46 * pdcawley_ thinks someone's being a wee bit clever clever here...
16:47 autrijus pdcawley: sadly, without those metasyntactic variables, I'd need to write data(meta(class(::Class)))
16:47 autrijus and I quickly lost track with that notation :-/
16:51 autrijus stevan: I hope I'm not overtly insane
16:51 autrijus stevan: note that I did away with the class() layer in your notation
16:51 stevan yes
16:52 autrijus it's hidden under the dotted wall between the two worlds
16:52 autrijus as I think it should be (I think)
16:52 stevan yes
16:52 stevan I agree
16:52 stevan that was why I did the mini-metamodel to experiment with that
16:52 autrijus nodnod
16:53 autrijus also I didn't have class's attr and submeth
16:53 autrijus mostly due to space restriction
16:53 autrijus but also because they are not involved during bootstrapping
16:55 autrijus I think another picture showing the time-indexed bootstrap process would help too
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16:59 stevan yes
17:00 fglock autrijus: ping
17:00 autrijus fglock: pong
17:00 fglock I was thinking about adding skeletons for other Containers/Values
17:00 fglock and maybe document the runtime API
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17:01 autrijus fglock: that'd rock, go ahead
17:01 autrijus you have the javascript version as reference :)
17:02 autrijus as well as the "Val" type in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/src/PIL/Val.hs
17:02 fglock iblech said he could reuse the Perl6 modules, compiled to javascript
17:03 autrijus not for intrinsic singular value types
17:03 autrijus but otherwise yes
17:05 fglock translating Perl6 to Perl5 by hand is harder than it seems :)
17:06 autrijus :)
17:08 fglock array contexts, references are entirely different. it would be nice if someone wrote about that.
17:08 autrijus you mean, aside from quickref and synopses
17:08 autrijus more like a tutorial?
17:09 fglock yes, more like a language comparison. A few snippets on a language, and how it looks like in the other.
17:10 autrijus docs/other/porting_howto
17:10 fglock specially about data structures and parameter passing
17:10 autrijus is probably what you're looking for
17:12 autrijus feel free to add to it
17:12 fglock ok :)
17:14 fglock does '=$fh' means '$fh.to_list' ?
17:16 fglock (I may have asked this before)
17:17 ods15 pugs is a bad name
17:17 ods15 i thought it was a program like 'flea' - to deal with perl bugs...
17:18 fglock ods15: I have a Westie - it could be "Westie" :)
17:18 ods15 ?
17:19 fglock ods15: actually "pugs" sounds a bit like "pulgas", which is fleas in portuguese :)
17:21 spinclad autrijus:  in logos, is |%:attr => $.x $.y| cutnpasted from Point?  all the rest makes sense
17:22 spinclad autrijus++  # pretty pitchers
17:22 kolibrie autrijus: so gnosis is the instance data of the MetaModel instance, and during bootstrapping the instance data is added to by metamorph and genesis, so at the end of the bootstrap the instance of the MetaModel is also an instance of ::Class
17:25 spinclad so gnosis, metamorph, genesis are stages in bootstrapping
17:25 spinclad and in the picture that's what they've added
17:26 kolibrie spinclad: I think that's right
17:27 kolibrie autrijus: can you change the legend item for 'instance data' so that the dotted line is coming out of the box, rather than underneath it?
17:28 spinclad seconding, that would be clearer
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17:34 PerlJam Is it just me or does anyone else have a hard time following Thomas Sandlass' posts on p6l?
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17:35 fglock PerlJam :)
17:35 kolibrie spinclad: hmm, yes, pretty sure the %:attr for pneuma and logos should not be the same
17:36 fglock l
17:37 fglock (oops)
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17:42 spinclad pneuma is the meta(::Object), and logos shows its instance data; it's %:attr in inst(meta(C)) for C in <::Object ::Point> (or something) that shouldn't be the same
17:43 spinclad just to be pedantically overbearing
17:44 spinclad ;)
17:50 kolibrie I think the label 'logos' should be under the boxes, such that theos, pneuma, and logos are all instances
17:51 kolibrie the instance data squares are not labeled
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18:02 spinclad i don't think logos has anything to do with Point, but with Object rather.
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18:05 spinclad leo suggested adding a line separating Point stuff from the stuff above, which would make it clearer what's the metamodel bootstrap and what's a later example instance/class/meta.
18:07 kolibrie autrijus: can you clarify logos for spinclad and me
18:07 stevan kolibrie: logos is the instance data for the meta(::Object)
18:08 stevan the metaclass behind the scences for Object
18:09 kolibrie stevan: so logos and pneuma are both for the instance of meta(::Object)?
18:09 stevan no
18:09 kolibrie I'm just seeing the same font, etc
18:09 stevan pneuma is the instance of MetaClass
18:09 kolibrie and think 'logos' should be under the cubes
18:10 kolibrie or a different font
18:10 kolibrie and where it is
18:10 stevan logos is the instance data that pneuma holds
18:10 stevan make sense?
18:10 kolibrie and the instance cubes next to Point have no name?
18:10 stevan no
18:11 stevan that is just defined when you do class Point { .. }
18:11 stevan Object has to be built special
18:11 stevan actually you might be able to get away with no building it special, but I have not experimented enough
18:12 stevan autrijus: I am going to expand the MiniMetaModel into MetaModel 2.0
18:12 stevan it needs to be re-written, the current version is too cluttered with p5 magic to untangle
18:12 stevan kolibrie: the key is to understand the bootstrap process
18:13 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
18:13 stevan first is gnosis,.. it is a hand constructed instance
18:13 stevan the 'add_method' method is all you need to begin adding more methods to it
18:13 stevan which is the metamorph step
18:14 stevan once all the methods and attributes have been added in metamorph, you have a (mostly) complete MetaClass
18:14 stevan the next step is to make ::Object it's superclass
18:14 stevan but you need ::Object in order to do that
18:15 stevan so you create ::Object, this is pneuma
18:15 stevan it is created from the data in logos
18:15 stevan once those two are created, you have ::Object
18:15 stevan and you can then add ::Object to the superclass of ::Class
18:15 stevan completing the cycle
18:16 stevan and then you have a fully formed ::Class which is theos
18:16 stevan the cycle is this:
18:16 stevan Class is an instance of Class
18:16 stevan Object is an instance of Class
18:16 stevan Class is a subclass of Object
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18:18 stevan autrijus: I think MetaClass is just confusing things... maybe we should get rid of it entirely
18:18 kolibrie so gnosis and logos exist at the beginning, and are just data structures
18:18 stevan gnosis does
18:19 kolibrie where does logos come from?
18:19 stevan but logos is the input which make pneuma,.. so you can create it later
18:19 stevan logos comes from Apoc 12 :)
18:19 kolibrie right, so it is a constant set of data needed to set up the initial objet
18:19 PerlJam stevan: actually, watching you explain it just now and looking at the metamodel.png it occurs to me that the image should be layered.
18:20 PerlJam currently there are 2 "layers".  I think there's really three (at least as how people think of it)
18:20 stevan PerlJam: 3-d VMRL would be nice too ;)
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18:20 stevan kolibrie: yes, it is (constant set of data to define ::Object)
18:20 stevan PerlJam: this diagram is a little tightly packed
18:21 stevan an animation might be a good thing
18:21 stevan for the bootstrap process
18:21 * stevan ponders a set of spork slides
18:22 PerlJam stevan: It would :-)  but I'm thinking of something like how the X Window System was explained to me.  At the bottom is Xlib which talks to the hardware, above that is Xt which talks to Xlib and can talk to the hardware as needed, above that are things like Motif which talk to Xt or Xlib or the hardware as needed.  I think the metamodel is the same way.
18:22 kolibrie well, autrijus has promised another picture showing the timeline of the MetaModel bootstrap
18:22 stevan yes, it is layered, but it is also temporal
18:23 stevan kolibrie: I think a static picture will loose something though
18:23 PerlJam stevan: At the bottom is the metaverse which does the work, above that are things like ::Class and ::Object, and above that is the real "user space"
18:23 PerlJam stevan: Unfortunately you can only show one view at a time. Have one "structural" picture and one "temporal" picture of the same thing.
18:24 masak PerlJam: why? have the layers on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal...
18:24 PerlJam masak: because I believe the lines willbe confusing.
18:24 masak PerlJam: you might be right
18:26 * stevan is going to try animating it
18:26 kolibrie stevan: so in metamodel.png, the label 'logos' should be in the same typeface as 'metamorph' and 'genesis'
18:26 stevan I am not sure I understand the signifigance of the typeface
18:27 kolibrie that's why I go lost in the first place
18:27 kolibrie all the labels for the instances are in one typeface, and all the labels for the instance_data are in another
18:28 kolibrie except 'gnosis' is different from them all
18:28 PerlJam stevan: animation would definitely be excellent.
18:28 svnbot6 r6220 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array passes 'make test'
18:28 svnbot6 r6221 | fglock++ | * per5/List - map() bugfix
18:40 gaal hi
18:40 fglock hi gaal
18:40 gaal how much of Prelude.pm compiles to PIL2 already?
18:40 gaal hey fglock :)
18:40 integral is there an AST->PIL2 compiler already?
18:41 gaal no idea :)
18:41 gaal what with illness and $work i've been a little out of things
18:42 gaal in this diagram: http://pugscode.org/images/metamodel.png
18:42 gaal what's the character before :super in "metamorph"?
18:42 gaal is that a @ ?
18:43 PerlJam gaal: yes.
18:43 gaal thanks.
18:43 PerlJam (at least that's what I've been thinking it is)
18:43 fglock integral: I think PIL replaces AST
18:44 integral fglock: err?   By AST I mean the result of the parser
18:44 integral and iirc the AST->PIL translation is done by the Compile monad atm
18:45 integral s/monad/typeclass/
18:45 PerlJam "monad"'s syntactic similarity to "gonad" makes me want to giggle everytime I see it.
18:47 gaal should VERSION perhaps be a method (or an attribute) in logos?
18:50 fglock integral: there's no AST in http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/notes/plan - that's why I thought that PIL replaces AST
18:50 autrijus rehi
18:50 autrijus I updated the picture
18:50 gaal heya
18:50 autrijus hopefully integrated all suggestions
18:50 integral fglock: oh, sorry, AST == Exp
18:50 integral confusion might also have been from PAST being a former name of PIL
18:51 autrijus integral: Exp->PIL2 compiler is not yet ready. working on it.
18:52 kolibrie autrijus: ooooh, ahhhh!  very nice
18:52 gaal should the textual result be longer or shorter, autrijus?
18:52 gaal (of Exp->PIL)
18:53 autrijus gaal: I persume longer
18:53 autrijus there are more nodes, in any case.
18:53 gaal time for binary representation?
18:53 autrijus sure, I plan to go with DriFT "deriving Binary"
18:54 autrijus drawback is that, like Storable, would be haskel only
18:54 autrijus YAML is even longer
18:55 autrijus but somewhat fast to read
18:55 autrijus XML is possible too. I'm open for suggestions for ondisk format
18:55 gaal hmm, is that necessarily so? DriFT stores native haskell structures?
18:55 gaal what about YAML | gzip?
18:55 autrijus no, but rather native byte representations
18:55 autrijus well, why do we worry about ondisk storage again?
18:55 * autrijus assumes disk is cheap
18:56 integral £30 for 80GB
18:56 PerlJam autrijus: Keep things human readable as much as you can.  
18:56 autrijus PerlJam: YAML may be attractive then
18:56 Aankh|Clone -1 for XML.
18:56 Aankh|Clone YAML++
18:56 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
18:56 autrijus it's still rather verbose but at least somewhat readable.
18:57 gaal it is but pugs -CPugs Prelude.pm  is like 1 mb
18:57 autrijus and we can even validate with Kwalify.
18:57 autrijus gaal: with yaml it'll be like 10mb or more.
18:57 autrijus yaml+gz is a possibility.
18:58 gaal that's too big to work with, isn't it?
18:58 autrijus well, syck is fast
18:58 stevan autrijus: I animated the metamodel visiolization
18:58 stevan http://no.perlcabal.org/~stevan/metamodel.gif
18:58 autrijus oh wow.
18:58 stevan this is the timeline for the bootstrap
18:58 stevan it needs annotations
18:58 stevan but it is basically there
18:59 autrijus you rock
18:59 autrijus I fixed the font and legend
18:59 Aankhen`` http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?u​rl=/library/en-us/dnexxml/html/xml10202004.asp
18:59 autrijus you may wish to copy the legend over if the rest is too painful
18:59 stevan yes, I saw, I will remake
18:59 Aankhen`` # When to use XML
18:59 stevan autrijus: the whole thing took me about 5 min
18:59 autrijus oh ok, remake then
19:00 autrijus Aankhen``: we are storing tree data, obviously yaml is superior :)
19:00 stevan autrijus: I am wondering if spork slides might be better
19:00 autrijus stevan: well, having separate frames available helps too
19:00 stevan allow the user to control back and forth
19:00 autrijus then we can add voice and subtitle
19:00 Aankhen`` I already made my preference for YAML clear. :-P
19:00 stevan PowerPoint!!!
19:00 autrijus yeah why not, seeing I'm using visio already ;)
19:01 * autrijus really tried Dia but really can't make it work
19:01 Angle has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:01 * stevan cant either,.. but I use OmniGraffle :)
19:01 kolibrie stevan: very nice animation
19:01 autrijus powerpoint embeds visio directly.
19:02 autrijus that's a good thing
19:02 stevan kolibrie: thanks :)
19:02 kolibrie svg does animation, but browsers don't support svg that well yet
19:02 stevan autrijus: I will work on this over the weekend, complete with annotations
19:02 stevan autrijus: did you get my note about MetaModel 2.0?
19:04 autrijus stevan: yes
19:05 autrijus stevan: I think MMM is a good start
19:05 autrijus and I got the basic idea I think
19:05 Aankhen`` ?eval my $foo = "init"; sub bar () { UNDO { $foo = "init"; }; $foo = "abcd"; die "HAHAHAHAHA" }; bar()
19:05 evalbot6 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&UNDO"
19:05 autrijus so I'll push ahead with the haskell one
19:05 autrijus till I get roles working
19:05 autrijus (which is 6.28.0 showstopper)
19:06 autrijus and we can sync from time to time
19:13 stevan autrijus: I really think roles need to be attributes-less
19:13 stevan butI am not sure it's a battle worth fighting
19:15 kolibrie a role is a set of methods, which does not have instance data? otherwise it is like a class?
19:16 stevan kolibrie: no, it has attributes, which will become instance data for the class the role is flattened into
19:16 TheMaaaa has joined #perl6
19:17 kolibrie stevan: just trying to picture the difference between a class and a role
19:18 kolibrie still a little fuzzy for me
19:23 stevan kolibrie: a role is just a collection of methods and attributes
19:23 svnbot6 r6222 | fglock++ | * updated perl5/ TODO list, MANIFEST
19:23 stevan to be included into the class
19:26 autrijus stevan: why does role-defined instance attrs bad?
19:26 autrijus s/does/is/
19:27 autrijus or do you mean role-defined _class_ attrs?
19:27 autrijus or both?
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19:31 kolibrie stevan: so roles are a definition, and don't have user instances, whereas a class may have user instances
19:32 stevan kolibrie: yes
19:33 stevan autrijus: the problem is with the conflict rules
19:33 stevan if methods are in conflict between two roles, neither is included...this makes it easy to treat role composition an non-order-dependent
19:34 autrijus right... so why can't attrs be treated like rw methods?
19:34 stevan if the class does not supply a method of the same name as the conflict,.. then an exception occured
19:34 stevan occurs
19:34 stevan autrijus: the problem is in the interelation of the methods/attributes
19:34 autrijus how is it different from methods/methods?
19:34 stevan hmmm
19:34 stevan actually it is not very different
19:35 autrijus :)
19:35 stevan however, that makes it worse IMO :)
19:35 stevan ok, maybe I will introduce the alias idea from the traits paper as a means of disambiguation
19:36 fglock autrijus: is 'id()' a container object method?
19:36 spinclad this would be a map from role namespace to class namespace?
19:36 stevan I think private methods/attributes can be dangerous too
19:36 stevan spinclad: no, the contents of the role namespace is composed into the class namespace
19:37 spinclad without renaming then?
19:37 autrijus fglock: a private one maybe
19:37 stevan no, the alias would force a rename
19:37 autrijus fglock: the container only exposes =:=
19:37 autrijus which is then implemented by comparing ids
19:37 autrijus but it does not publicly offer .id
19:37 spinclad ok
19:40 autrijus fglock: on the other hand, if we expose them as full perl6 objects (which I'm not sure there is a way to do that yet)
19:40 autrijus then naturally their .id would be their object id.
19:40 autrijus i.e. the "Cell" are perl6 objects
19:40 autrijus but I don't think AES has them exposed yet.
19:40 autrijus in particular, I'm not sure @array.id returns anything.
19:41 kolibrie stevan: light bulb! so a role is like a base class, never used directly, but useful for giving functionality to many classes
19:42 stevan kolibrie: that is one way to look at them yes
19:42 stevan except they can be injected at any point
19:42 autrijus and does not participate in ->SUPER calls
19:43 stevan yes, the SUPER:: calls in a Role method are late bound,.. so they will call the SUPER:: of the class they are composed into
19:43 autrijus exactly.
19:44 kolibrie ok
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20:06 autrijus journal up. see you tomorrow!
20:06 * autrijus waves &
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20:21 nothingmuch hola.
20:22 fglock hola nothingmuch
20:23 fglock shabbath shalom
20:23 nothingmuch not yet shabbath as far as
20:23 nothingmuch i'm concerned
20:23 nothingmuch i still have friday night which is morally friday =)
20:24 fglock (I forgot about the time zone difference)
20:26 fglock I'm still confusing the MetaModel and the Runtime a bit
20:30 * nothingmuch hasn't any time to grok that now =(
20:31 ods15 hello nothingmuch
20:32 nothingmuch hi ho
20:33 nothingmuch say - you know mplayer... I have a broken movie, avi/divx.... can I get it to skip the missing frames and try to find the mpeg sync bytes (assuming MPEG-4 has those) and continue from there? I would like to use mencoder to save a movie which might have some stuff missing, but that is still playable
20:35 PerlJam_ has joined #perl6
20:35 nothingmuch ods15: ?
20:36 ods15 hmm?
20:36 nothingmuch scroll back one line =)
20:36 ods15 oh sorry, was busy hacking :) /me reads Q
20:36 ods15 if you don't have the index, use main/TOOLS/avi-fix (don't forget '-fix'!)
20:36 ods15 if you do have the index, just play it back
20:37 nothingmuch no index... -forceidx didn't work either. I'll grab the source and see if said avi-fix works
20:37 ods15 regarding avifix, you should probably >/dev/null it's output, it takes more cpu time displaying it than the program to actually work
20:37 nothingmuch heh
20:37 ods15 avifix always works, but it's HELLA slow
20:37 ods15 the length of the movie is basically the amount of time it takes
20:37 nothingmuch well, i can leave it overnight or something
20:37 ods15 yup
20:38 nothingmuch even on very mean hardware? I can do it work.. =)
20:38 ods15 after it works you need -idx, i think, but not sure
20:38 ods15 nah, it's hd bottleneck, not cpu
20:38 ods15 pc is defenetaly useable while it's working..
20:38 nothingmuch ah, in that case I have some very mean hardware for that tooo
20:39 nothingmuch 6-way sata raid
20:39 * nothingmuch benchmarked it to around 300MB (yes, bytes) per second, write speed from /dev/zero
20:39 nothingmuch and slightly more than that for reading the file into /dev/null
20:39 ods15 lol, hehe
20:39 ods15 my sata sucks :( pci
20:40 pdcawley_ has quit IRC ()
20:40 nothingmuch it's got an external scsi interface, so it can handle that load =)
20:43 nothingmuch ods15: it's outputting 6 lines and exiting with status 1
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20:45 ods15 i dunno. i don't remember much of that prog
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21:06 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
21:07 Aankhen`` G'night.
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21:54 renormalist Hi all!
21:55 renormalist I currently don't quite understand with which kind of regular expression I can work in Pugs. It feels like the half of Apo/Ex/Syn 05, but without the subpatterns and the new stuff?
21:56 renormalist is there a description what the current useable regex language is in Pugs?
21:57 elmex has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:57 renormalist I'm also interested in modifiers like :overlap,  :exhaustive and the like.
21:58 renormalist anyone with a hint awake?
21:58 sapper has joined #perl6
21:59 QtPlatypus renormalist: You can use the grammer parsing capabilities of the regex rules.
22:00 hlen has joined #perl6
22:00 QtPlatypus An I think they have just resently got :w to work.
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22:07 renormalist Who is working on this, i.e. whose logs do I have to read to see what happens in that rules-area?
22:07 renormalist or will it just appear in autijus journal entries?
22:07 QtPlatypus Most of the PGE is done on the parrot side of the world.
22:08 renormalist also things like <$subrule> , the stuff that feels like Parse:recdescent?
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22:59 QtPlatypus <subrule> works
22:59 QtPlatypus { } doesn't work yet.
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23:13 fglock_ hi
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