Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-08-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:00 Alejandro connect elixus.org
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05:13 planetcall hello
05:14 planetcall when perl6 is out there then why perl5 is continuing ?
05:18 Khisanth because migration doesn't happen overnight
05:18 hexmode perl6 is out?
05:18 Khisanth do YOU think you can learn perl6 overnight?
05:18 Khisanth hexmode: note the "when" :)
05:18 hexmode ah
05:19 hexmode got excited for a bit
05:19 hexmode I'll go back to throwing coffee cups
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05:31 planetcall which one would you suggest for a "new to perl" programmer to begin with
05:32 Khisanth ...
05:32 Khisanth perl6 doesn't quite exists yet
05:32 wolverian planetcall, the one that actually has a complete implementation.
05:33 wolverian (that is, perl5. :)
05:33 wolverian if it feels like too old for you, learn ruby and then move to perl6 when it comes out.
05:33 wolverian (a lot of ruby experience can be directly applied to perl6, which is a bonus.)
05:34 Khisanth ruby isn't all that young either :)
05:34 planetcall does ruby has a wide support as perl ? I dont have had much acquaintance with ruby
05:34 Khisanth but then you could learn Lisp and apply a lot to perl6 too :)
05:36 planetcall it has been very recent I have migrated to the open community driven languages.......I really like perl though never got time to delve into deep
05:36 Khisanth Perl seems like mostly a love it or hate it language :)
05:36 planetcall why hate it?
05:37 Khisanth beats me
05:39 planetcall surprisingly many languages are moving towards their own virtual machines.....
05:39 planetcall even perl
05:39 wolverian planetcall, no, ruby isn't quite as well supported. especially things like mod_ruby are either woefully underdocumented or just plain unstable/hard to install.
05:39 wolverian perl is a _lot_ more mature in that respect.
05:41 planetcall was java first to have its own virtual machine and IL code ?
05:42 pdcawley_ has joined #perl6
05:42 planetcall The vision for Perl 6 is more than simply a rewrite of Perl 5. By separating the parsing from the compilation and the runtime, we're opening the doors for multiple languages to cooperate. You'll be able to write your program in Perl 6, Perl 5, TCL, Python, or any other language that there's a parser written for. Interchangable runtime engines let you interpret your bytecode or convert it to something else (e.g., Java, C, or even back to Perl).
05:43 wolverian I'm pretty sure there are virtual machines from 1960 :)
05:43 wolverian and in the end, everything new is old news to LISP.
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05:47 wolverian good morning :)
05:49 autrijus hi :)
05:49 autrijus mm old news to LISP.
05:49 autrijus "Computer Science is merely the post-Turing decline in formal systems theory."
05:53 wolverian we need to tear down the establishment and create a more humane science
05:54 wolverian (I'm typing randomly. never mind.)
06:03 autrijus :)
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06:27 gantrixx anyone here?
06:27 gantrixx is there anyone here working on Perl6 development?
06:27 wolverian yes. I'm not sure if anyone is awake, though. :)
06:28 gantrixx When do you think Perl6 will be ready for general use?
06:28 gantrixx when do you think Perl6 will have good support from the Perl community?
06:29 wolverian I don't know.
06:29 buu Christmas.
06:29 wolverian right. :)
06:29 gantrixx That wouldn't be to bad
06:29 gantrixx here is the problem
06:29 wolverian gantrixx, there are too many components that have to be finished, each of them having their own developers and schedules and such
06:30 wolverian it is not possible to really say when perl6 will be out.
06:30 gantrixx What I worry is that Perl is loosing market share to Python
06:30 arubin has joined #perl6
06:30 gantrixx I'm involved with a situation like this at work right now
06:30 wolverian "losing". why does that worry you? python is a fine language.
06:30 autrijus yo.
06:31 gantrixx There is a lot of automation they are planning to write and they are in the process of choosing if it will be done in Perl or Python
06:31 gantrixx It worries me because there doesn't need to be Perl, Python, Ruby
06:31 gantrixx there only needs to be one
06:31 wolverian what kind of automation are we alking about?
06:31 wolverian s,alk,talk,
06:31 gantrixx corporations like to have standardized technologies
06:32 autrijus gantrixx: it's nice that they had not standardized on Cobol already
06:32 autrijus er I mean Java.
06:32 gantrixx It's for a communication system using satellites and stuff
06:33 gantrixx Well, you see they have been burned in the past by writting things in Ada.  Now they have to pay big bucks to the last 2 Ada programmers on the planet to maintain the systems.
06:33 wolverian the world is rarely perfect. just be glad it's not java, as autrijus said.
06:33 gantrixx I think it is a great step forward that they realize the value of open-source and open-standards
06:33 gantrixx but now they want a standard "scripting" language
06:33 gantrixx not a free for all
06:34 gantrixx and they want to bet on a winning horse
06:34 wolverian python and perl are both fine languages. don't worry. be adaptive. there is no silver bullet.
06:34 gantrixx In some of these meetings they talk about Perl falling by the way side
06:34 autrijus gantrixx: fact is... all are winning horses.
06:34 autrijus gantrixx: once thing that's sort of a central tenet of perl6 is that you can write
06:35 autrijus use perl5:DBI;
06:35 autrijus use jsan:DOM;
06:35 gantrixx Can you imagine practicing law if all the laws in the country changed every 5 years
06:35 autrijus use python:Zope;
06:35 arubin gantrixx: uh
06:35 arubin they pretty much do
06:35 arubin especially things like tax law
06:35 autrijus gantrixx: not all the laws, but new laws, sure :)
06:35 arubin at least as much as perl 5 to 6
06:36 gantrixx Yes but then every lawyer has to know the old and the new laws
06:36 gantrixx This is unrealistic
06:36 autrijus ...which is the case right now :)
06:36 autrijus at least the code is open for lawyers ;)
06:36 gantrixx It is unrealistic to expect a programmer to be an expert in C/C++, Java, C#, Perl, Python, Ruby, and PHP
06:36 gantrixx to be good you have to focus on a smaller set of skills
06:37 arubin yes, skip C# and PHP
06:37 autrijus that's right, so what's why cross-language interop is important and healthy
06:37 gantrixx And if you spend a year working on a C/C++ project, your Java skills fall and you aren't familiare with the latest Java stuff
06:38 autrijus ...and why we are compiling perl6 to native code, javascript, parrot and perl5. :)
06:38 gantrixx why is it that we waste so much redesigning the tools to do our job only to not be proficient at using them
06:38 gantrixx look, I didn't come here to argue
06:39 gantrixx but if you are a Perl6 developer, you might find it interesting to know what your customers are thinking
06:39 arubin and what would that be?
06:39 arubin kill off other languages?
06:39 autrijus long-term survival, is what I heard
06:39 gantrixx If you are improving Perl simply to make yourself happy then that is fine, but if you truly believe that Perl6 is superior language then you should want to see it adopted and used
06:40 arubin autrijus: sounds better than the existing plan of mass suicide in 3 years
06:40 gantrixx If Perl6, Python, and Ruby are pretty much all just as good as one another, why do we need all three
06:40 autrijus arubin: I certainly hope so
06:40 gantrixx should everyone just use one, then focus on making better software?
06:41 arubin gantrixx: you do realize that the Perl people have no control over other languages?
06:41 Khisanth don't know about Ruby but Perl6 and Python definitely doesn't seem equal
06:41 autrijus gantrixx: on the other hand, if all libraries from those languages can call each other
06:41 autrijus gantrixx: so each person can write in a language that fits her brain best
06:41 gantrixx I don't program in Python, but it looks like I maybe soon
06:41 autrijus gantrixx: then I'd prefer that :)
06:41 gantrixx I think you are missing the point.  Companies don't want a system that is composed of 10 different syntaxes
06:42 wolverian gantrixx, again, there is no single best language. the best we can do is work on interoperability.
06:42 Khisanth besides Perl has always been philosophically different from Python:)
06:42 gantrixx they want to pick a couple
06:42 autrijus gantrixx: that's true, but there are more than one company out there :)
06:42 autrijus I mean, Amazon standardizes on Perl, Yahoo on PHP, Google on Python.
06:42 Khisanth companies just want to use languages with the most hype, if the wrong person at the company happens to be making that decision :)
06:43 autrijus (for their scripting needs, respectively)
06:43 autrijus I don't think that's a bad thing for them to do that.
06:43 gantrixx again, I think you are failing to see it from the customers point of view.  People don't always get to program in the language they want to program in because they like it.  They are told what language the system will be built in and that decision is made often by non programmers for different reasons
06:43 gantrixx reasons like, long term maintainability of the system
06:43 arubin gantrixx: I think you are completely missing the point
06:43 wolverian autrijus, and Yahoo provides API examples for all of those languages, I think.
06:43 gantrixx support for the technology it is built in
06:43 arubin no one can make anyone else stop developing different languages
06:43 autrijus right, so the main takeaway is long-term survival.
06:44 autrijus in term of support base and install base.
06:44 autrijus I assure you that the p6 design is centered on that value. :) it's said at the first synopsis/apocalypse.
06:44 gantrixx so when the suits start creating more jobs for Python programmers, that is when Perl becomes simply a hobbyist language
06:44 arubin your logic is a little flawed
06:44 gantrixx And I'm not the one missing the point, the people making the decisions are
06:45 gantrixx this is a project that will probably employ 300 developers
06:45 gantrixx for the next 10 years
06:45 Khisanth and how exactly is a non programmer well suited to be deciding what is and isn't good for long term maintainability?
06:45 gantrixx most will be C/C++ programmers
06:45 arubin Ruby, PHP, Python and Perl are all used for professional development now
06:46 gantrixx but a portion will be Perl or Python programmers also
06:46 gantrixx so to work 8 hrs a day for the next 10 years on Python, means much less use for Perl
06:46 arubin at your company
06:46 gantrixx now I realize this is just one company, but what if other large corporations think the same way
06:46 arubin this doesn't signal the end of Perl
06:47 arubin guess what, Python is widely used for large projects now
06:47 autrijus gantrixx: *nod*. so, what will help most to influence your managers in favour of perl?
06:47 arubin see Google and ILM
06:47 Khisanth ugh "what if" can lead all over the place
06:47 arubin autrijus: I think he wants a psychic
06:47 gantrixx Khisanth: in corporate america many decisions are made by people far removed from the technical task itself.  you can argue for utopia, but this is the way it is
06:48 Khisanth hardly utopia
06:48 gantrixx autrijus: when will Perl6 be available, when will it have good community support, when will Perl5 loose community support
06:48 Khisanth having qualified people do their job is asking for too much? :)
06:48 autrijus gantrixx: ok. perl5 won't lose commmunity support in at least another decade.
06:49 autrijus perl4 enjoyed support for that long, and perl5's base is even larger.
06:49 gantrixx autrijus: OK, my job is now to convince the decision makers of that
06:49 wolverian gantrixx, CPAN is a juggernaut that can't be stopped.
06:49 autrijus gantrixx: perl6 is available as a prototype now; you can write in it to get a taste of how it looks like; there is a growing body of examples.
06:49 wolverian perl5 isn't going away.
06:50 gantrixx the decision makers are under the impression that if we went the Perl route, Perl6 may be available in 6 months or so.  We could easily rewrite 6 months of Perl5 in Perl6.
06:50 autrijus gantrixx: I estimate it to have reasonable community support with we can compile perl6 to run with existing perl5 modules.
06:50 gantrixx And my concern is that they are already leaning toward Python
06:51 arubin writing Python is not the end of the world
06:51 arubin you could be writing VB
06:51 wolverian gantrixx, perl6 won't be available as a production system in six months.
06:51 autrijus gantrixx: you can talk to them that python does not offer a way to statically type your program the way C++ does.
06:51 gantrixx I'd hate to see Perl die....or at least be pushed aside for a younger prettier girl....this Perl6 extreme make-over needs to get completed.
06:51 arubin autrijus: how does that push them towards Perl?
06:52 wolverian maybe you should bring up Haskell with them.
06:52 autrijus arubin: er, if they write perl5 now, then the transition to an incrementally typed perl6 will be less painful?
06:52 arubin autrijus: it's possible Python 3 will have some typing as well
06:53 autrijus arubin: I'd like to see the spec of the said python 3.
06:54 gantrixx The other thing is that, until Perl6 is bundled with Solaris and RedHat, they are hesitant to accept it.
06:54 arubin autrijus: there is nothing set in stone
06:54 autrijus perl6 isn't in any way a mature design, but it's better than a set of mailing list discussions :)
06:54 arubin http://www.python.org/peps/pep-3000.html
06:54 arubin I've read a lot of talk of static typing
06:54 arubin not that I think static typing is a good thing
06:54 gantrixx Otherwise the SA's have to install teh haskel compiler, parrot and all that stuff.  It's a hassle
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06:54 autrijus gantrixx: okay. you can talk to them that my current plan is that perl6 will be cross-compiled to perl5.
06:55 autrijus gantrixx: so anywhere that runs perl5 can run perl6.
06:55 buu autrijus: Really? How?
06:55 autrijus it may become as simple as "use pugs; ...start writing perl6 code ..."
06:55 autrijus buu: oh, the same way we currently compile perl6 to javascript.
06:56 Khisanth heh Python isn't all that much younger or prettier, beauty is in the eye of the beholder afterall
06:56 autrijus buu: build a simple glue that's the runtime and object model in Perl5, then output perl 5 code from perl6.
06:56 gantrixx what I really wish some of tehse corporations would do is actually pick a technology that they feel strongly about and donate some developers to work on it.
06:56 autrijus buu: http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/docs/notes/plan
06:57 gantrixx then maybe they could insure a long life of one particular technology
06:57 gantrixx rather than hanging back to see what happens
06:57 gantrixx or trying to predict the future
06:57 arubin gantrixx: already happens
06:57 Khisanth gantrixx: but there ARE companies that do that
06:57 gantrixx yes some
06:58 autrijus actually, I'd say the majority of CPAN modules are contributed by people who use them in work.
06:58 gantrixx but any modules I write on company time, they don't let me upload to CPAN.  They view it as proprietary material
06:58 autrijus Acme::* notwithstanding.
06:58 Khisanth well that is really between you and your company's lawyers ...
06:59 gantrixx what I do is go home and write stuff on my own time
06:59 gantrixx I leave teh specific stuff for work
06:59 gantrixx then at least I can reuse my own modules on other projects
06:59 autrijus gantrixx: you got a CPAN ID?
07:00 gantrixx Anyway, they are about 6 months away before they start writing this automation so even if they make a decision now, they still have time to change it before 6 months
07:00 gantrixx and I will be working at a different company for that 6 months doing development in Perl5
07:00 gantrixx no I don't have a CPAN ID
07:01 gantrixx All the generic modules that I have written I just keep for my personal use
07:01 autrijus ah. I wonder if you'd be interested in playing with porting those generic modules to perl 6
07:01 gantrixx Actually yes
07:01 autrijus just to see if the new code is cleaner and more suited to your brain
07:02 gantrixx I mean, if I don't spend my spare time learning Python
07:02 gantrixx I've tried to write some stuff in Perl6 the last time I took a look at it
07:02 autrijus then you can give an accurate description of how it is to write in p6
07:02 gantrixx but I had a hard time getting even the examples to run
07:02 autrijus oh. how long ago is this?
07:02 gantrixx I could not get the simple code that I wrote to work
07:03 gantrixx maybe 4 months ago
07:03 gantrixx I have a vested interest in Perl
07:03 autrijus ah... running it in parrot or in pugs?
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07:03 gantrixx hang on, I'll have to refresh my memory
07:03 gantrixx let me check
07:04 gantrixx parrot
07:05 autrijus sure. if you can paste the code to http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 we can see how it runs now
07:05 autrijus also, if you'd like to start porting some of your generic, personal use modules to perl6, I'd like to know your email address so I can send a committer invitation to you
07:05 autrijus so you can commit some code into pugs's examples/ and ext/ directories, and maybe help on the tests etc.
07:05 autrijus ah. no wonder ;)
07:06 gantrixx OK, let me do this....I'll have to refamiliarize myself with Perl6
07:06 autrijus gantrixx: invitation sent. welcome aboard! you can check out the latest source with "svn co http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs" and commit from the same checkout directory.
07:06 autrijus if you do so, add yourself to the AUTHORS file.
07:06 gantrixx after that I can dig up some perl5 modules that I wrote for fun and port them to Perl6
07:07 autrijus that'd be great.
07:07 Aankhen`` ?eval class Foo { sub bar (::?CLASS $self: ) { "bar" } }; Foo.new().bar()
07:07 evalbot6 'bar'
07:07 autrijus I'll brb
07:08 gantrixx OK, it's midnight here.  I'm going to bed
07:08 Aankhen`` Night.
07:08 autrijus see you around here again soon :)
07:08 gantrixx rest assured I am fighting for Perl on this project with Gen Dyn
07:08 gantrixx but I have a 6 month project with another company to do first
07:09 autrijus nod. I'll try my best to make your life easier :)
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07:09 Aankhen`` autrijus: How's the new runcore coming along?
07:10 autrijus Aankhen``: lots of dead trees ;)
07:10 Aankhen`` :-o
07:10 * Aankhen`` rushes off to hug the trees!
07:10 autrijus Aankhen``: the current Parser's Exp form is not adequate
07:11 autrijus I'm working to reformulate it so each special form gets its own node
07:11 autrijus not reusing the horribly overloaded Syn node
07:11 autrijus so I'm branching off src/Pugs/* into src/PIL/*
07:11 autrijus temporarily you'd need "make pil" and 'make pili" to play with new runcore.
07:11 autrijus a Syn parser, a type annotator and the metamodel need to work together
07:12 Aankhen`` OK.
07:12 autrijus I already got intrinsics and container types figured out.
07:12 Aankhen`` Yay!
07:12 wolverian autrijus, did you know that "pili" is a childish term for "penis" in finnish? :)
07:12 Aankhen`` Hi wolverian. :-P
07:12 wolverian hello, Aankhen`` :)
07:12 autrijus wolverian: every word is a childish term for genitals in some language
07:12 autrijus I'm not surprised :)
07:12 wolverian autrijus, that's probably true.
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07:40 svnbot6 r6223 | Aankhen++ |  r6288@tef-base:  Aankhen | 2005-08-13 12:35:51 +051800
07:40 svnbot6 r6223 | Aankhen++ |  * HTTP::Message: don't specify value for $:headers.
07:40 svnbot6 r6224 | Aankhen++ |  r6289@tef-base:  Aankhen | 2005-08-13 12:37:58 +051800
07:40 svnbot6 r6224 | Aankhen++ |  * HTTP::Message: removed a todo item.
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11:18 TheMaaaa does anyone know where I can get nmake.exe 7 for compiling Pugs?
11:21 wilx In MS Visual Studio.
11:22 wilx Alternatively it should be possible to use MinGW/MSYS.
11:22 TheMaaaa ok, thank you very much
11:24 wolverian nmake is available at microsoft.com downloads as well.
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13:11 dudley http://theory.csail.mit.edu/~iandc/
13:11 dudley as if I didn't have a long enough reading backlog
13:12 dudley back issues of Information and Computation are available (gratis) dating back to 1995
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14:35 * autrijus is massively yak shaving ;)
14:35 autrijus perlbot: seen iblech
14:35 jabbot autrijus: iblech was seen 1 days 16 hours 29 minutes 59 seconds ago
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15:07 autrijus I think I need three more hackathons to make this all happen
15:07 * autrijus ponders staying with dconway, iblech and leo for a while respectively
15:08 gaal who was that mathematician who traveled to people's places and stayed with them, helping them with their stuff?
15:09 gaal like, stay with someone, helped him write a paper or solve a problem, moved on
15:09 gaal not exactly a hackathon; more like mathathon.
15:09 autrijus gaal: I explicitly said I will start Erdösing from 2006 :)
15:10 gaal ah, erdos, of course
15:10 TheMaaaa autrijus: iblech will be here in 60 minutes or so
15:10 autrijus TheMaaaa: oh cool. thanks
15:10 TheMaaaa autrijus: (I'm a friend)
15:10 TheMaaaa autrijus: np
15:11 gaal hey, cool, like a reverse jabbot.
15:11 TheMaaaa lol
15:11 autrijus lol
15:11 TheMaaaa ;)
15:11 gaal willsee gaal
15:11 gaal gaal will be seen on spetember 4
15:11 autrijus gaal: gaal will be here in -0.5 minutes
15:12 gaal willsee perl6    # faq
15:12 gaal you: perl 6 will be ready on christmas
15:12 autrijus nah, perl6 will appear right away
15:12 autrijus is now known as perl6
15:12 perl6 is now known as is
15:12 gaal heh
15:12 * is here today!
15:13 TheMaaaa has quit IRC ()
15:13 is is now known as autrijus
15:13 autrijus freenode didn't like frequence nick changing tricks ;)
15:14 autrijus so the /nick here and /nick today part was forever lost
15:18 autrijus oh well.
15:18 * autrijus goes back hacking YAML.
15:20 autrijus gaal: hm, do you think TelAviv.pm can possibly host me for a month or so?
15:21 gaal with great pleasure!
15:21 autrijus good to hear!
15:21 * autrijus ticks a box on the map
15:22 gaal yay! any time in mind?
15:23 autrijus I don't know, when will you folks be most active for long hacking sessions?
15:23 autrijus (like, off-school)
15:24 gaal YAPC will probably be in february, gabor (and, well, everyone) will be delighted if you could talk there
15:24 autrijus and that'd be a good time for you and others to hack
15:24 autrijus ?
15:25 gaal you are very much invited to stay at my place any time you want (after early september), let me check when the academic year starts
15:25 gaal (i haven't been in school in a while, and anyway here it's different every year)
15:27 * clkao giggles at autrijus
15:27 gaal TAU begins the fall semester on 2005-10-30, other universities may differ by a week or so
15:28 jhorwitz has joined #perl6
15:28 gaal any time is good for me to hack :) i do have to work part time though.
15:28 autrijus when does fall semester end?
15:29 autrijus clkao: Erdosing is fun... come to think about it you did that a couple years ago too
15:29 gaal 2005-02-03
15:29 gaal last day of the semester
15:29 autrijus 2006 you mean.
15:29 clkao autrijus: are you starting?
15:29 gaal er, yes
15:30 clkao autrijus: sure i did :) and i also draw nice ascii maps
15:30 autrijus clkao: yeah, will first be off 2005-09-22 ~ 2005-11-15
15:30 gaal semester 2 starts 2006-03-05
15:30 clkao autrijus: where?
15:31 gaal so february might be a great choice.
15:31 autrijus and then 2006-02 ~ 2006-06 hopefully
15:31 autrijus clkao: .es, .fi, .dk, .nl for the first trip -- maybe more
15:31 autrijus not sure about .uk ;)
15:31 clkao you can use london as hub transitting.. lots of cheap flights
15:31 autrijus riight.
15:32 clkao and i have couchbed
15:32 gaal once in continental europe, trains are probably more fun than planes
15:32 autrijus the second trip is maybe .il, .de, .au -- I'd like to visit .se and .fr as well if possible.
15:32 clkao you mean .at
15:33 autrijus er I mean .at.
15:33 autrijus damn similiar country names.
15:33 clkao you are planning far ahread. that's very bad for erdosing
15:33 autrijus no, I'm merely dreaming far ahead.
15:33 autrijus big difference.
15:33 clkao ..
15:33 autrijus (as in, no committments yet except for .es .nl)
15:33 autrijus but .il sounds like fun
15:34 * gaal bounces
15:34 clkao come for 2 weeks and we can rewrite svk in perl6
15:34 autrijus right.. that could happen right after p6-to-p5vm
15:34 autrijus gaal: when will www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2006/ go up usually?
15:35 autrijus as in dates etc
15:35 autrijus if it's mid-feb I think I can manage it
15:35 gaal i'll talk with gabor about it.
15:35 autrijus cool.
15:35 autrijus gaal++
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15:36 clkao didn't gabor want to write svk gui
15:36 gaal yes, he's working on it AFAIK
15:36 clkao autrijus: you will see shlomi then!
15:37 autrijus clkao: well, that'd be cool too
15:37 gaal he helped me make some good pizza
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15:46 iblech autrijus: pong
15:46 autrijus iblech: yo!
15:46 autrijus iblech: I'm de-GADTing PIL1
15:46 autrijus and working on yaml serialization
15:46 autrijus and PIL2 will use the same schema
15:46 iblech Great! :)
15:46 autrijus I think I'll use hash for record type
15:47 * nothingmuch joins the rejoicing
15:47 autrijus and scalar for nullary constructor
15:47 autrijus and array for basic algebraic types
15:47 iblech All fine with me
15:47 autrijus good good.
15:48 clkao yaml? isn't json the new thing
15:48 nothingmuch clkao: json isa yaml
15:48 gaal json is yaml isn't it? :)
15:48 autrijus json (<=) yaml
15:48 autrijus clkao: look, conclusively proved by three-people-makes-a-tiger rule
15:48 clkao lol
15:48 nothingmuch autrijus: if you come to israel, would you like to see stuff in reality?
15:48 nothingmuch like sounds, and landscapes?
15:49 autrijus nothingmuch: not terribly interested
15:49 iblech (BTW, manually parsing the PIL takes ~~50% of the total time needed to compile a .pil to .js, so -PYAML will greatly speed up PIL2JS :))
15:49 nothingmuch gaal: see?
15:49 autrijus but if you are convinced something is particularly good, maybe
15:49 autrijus iblech: woot
15:49 autrijus iblech: even more gain if you revamp YAML::Parser::Syck a bit
15:49 clkao get a life! hack in beautiful places!
15:49 autrijus since we can link against src/syck/
15:49 clkao rather then toliet!
15:49 autrijus clkao: tamsui isn't ugly either
15:49 clkao s/then/than
15:50 autrijus iblech: also, you're @ bavaria.de, right?
15:50 nnunley2 has joined #perl6
15:50 iblech autrijus: Unfortunately, I don't have much C-fu and no XS-foo...
15:50 iblech autrijus: Right
15:50 nothingmuch bavarian hacking works
15:50 nothingmuch ;-)
15:50 autrijus iblech: how close are you to München?
15:51 iblech autrijus: 60km, 1h
15:51 autrijus oh, pretty close
15:51 autrijus iblech: so, I wonder whether you'll have some time in 2006 to hack with me to p6 really happen :)
15:52 autrijus as in, host me for a month
15:52 autrijus s/p6/make p6/
15:52 iblech I'd have to ask my parents :)
15:52 * iblech asks
15:53 autrijus if I can find someone nearby to host me, that's possible too.
15:53 autrijus worst case we'll just fine a conference and stay for a week :)
15:53 autrijus s/fine/find/ # fruedian slilp
15:53 putter has joined #perl6
15:53 iblech They can't say for sure, but think it might work
15:53 iblech :)
15:53 putter hi folks
15:53 nothingmuch hi putter
15:54 iblech Hi :)
15:54 * jhorwitz found his own pugs mascot
15:54 jhorwitz http://www.smashing.org/gallery/album01/100_0443
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15:54 gaal hee
15:54 autrijus iblech: cool. I don't really need to commit to anything right now -- but some idea of when (as in which months) is more convenient would be nice
15:54 jhorwitz http://www.smashing.org/gallery/album01/100_0445
15:54 autrijus jhorwitz: cool!
15:55 autrijus iblech: do you make use of PPos currently?
15:55 autrijus it's the only existential used in the GADT, so I'm thinking maybe I'll disable it for now
15:55 iblech autrijus: Mid June - Mid August would fit best
15:55 iblech autrijus: Yep, $?POSITION is updated
15:56 autrijus oh ok
15:56 autrijus hm.
15:56 autrijus maybe one different PPos form at each level then.
15:56 iblech autrijus: But np if we remove that
15:56 autrijus if you can pick one node to annotate
15:56 autrijus which one would you like?
15:56 autrijus the Expression level?
15:56 autrijus (PExp)
15:56 iblech PStmt
15:56 autrijus ah. right.
15:56 autrijus okay, PStmt it is.
15:57 autrijus so still
15:57 autrijus PPos pos exp (PStmt ...)
15:57 autrijus (PStmt pos exp ...) is maybe too unwieldy
15:57 iblech Both fine with me
15:58 autrijus k
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15:59 putter re yaml on p5, for speed, I suggest -CYAMLp5 , which generates p5 code which can simply be eval()ed.  The
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16:00 autrijus putter: I think we measure speed after benchmarking :)
16:00 putter (oops) p5 path is worth a fastpath.  Can also read yaml, just to validate -CYAML.  -CPILp5?
16:00 autrijus I have a hunch that p5+syck will be no much slower than full eval.
16:01 autrijus syck is after all lightning fast at what it does.
16:01 putter re benchmark-before-tweak, oh, yesss, please. :)
16:01 autrijus a plus is that we can write yaml transformers at binding level
16:01 autrijus so we get fully blessed objects back.
16:02 putter But outputing p5 is likely comparable in difficulty to getting a new non-trivial XS module debugged.
16:02 putter That's my main observation.
16:02 autrijus outputting p5 is trivial. :)
16:02 autrijus because we are just dealing with fixed types.
16:02 autrijus otoh, YAML::Parser::Syck is not a new module.
16:03 autrijus it exists now etc :)
16:03 putter err, putter starts the day confused... there was talk of XS coding...
16:04 putter s/comparable/easier than/
16:04 autrijus the syck binding needs some tweaking to have it build against src/syck/
16:04 autrijus that's all :)
16:04 putter ah.
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16:19 svnbot6 r6225 | putter++ | hack.pod: added vcs web browser links.
16:33 autrijus deGADT complete
16:33 svnbot6 r6226 | putter++ | docs/SEEALSO: added link to YAPC Apocalypse_Now on pugscode.org.
16:33 autrijus refactoring is really impossibly easy with this language ;)
16:34 autrijus iblech:
16:34 autrijus    { pilMain = (PStmts {pStmt = PNoop, pStmts = PStmts {pStmt = PPos {pPos = (MkPos "-e" 1 1 1 6), pExp = App (Var "&say") Nothing [Pos (MkPos "-e" 1 5 1 6) (Val (VInt 1))], pNode = PStmt {pExpr = PExp {pLV = PApp {pCxt = TTailCall TCxtVoid, pFun = PExp {pLV = PVar {pVarName = "&say"}}, pInv = Nothing, pArgs = [PLit {pLit = PVal {pVal = VInt 1}}]}}}}, pStmts = PNil}})
16:34 autrijus iblech: I don't think I can push this back in good conscience before I work out an alternative to you :)
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16:35 autrijus iblech: so... your p5 classes are based on the variant tags
16:35 autrijus right?
16:35 autrijus as in, PBind gets a class
16:35 autrijus but PLvalue does not
16:36 iblech autrijus: oooh, nice :)
16:36 iblech Currently, both get a class
16:36 iblech but PBind is bless [...] => "PIL::PBind" and
16:36 iblech Infinity (e.g.) is bless [] => "PIL::Infinity"
16:36 autrijus ooh very clever.
16:37 autrijus but I take you'd rather work with $bind->{LHS}
16:37 autrijus instead of $bind->[0]
16:37 autrijus right?
16:37 * autrijus ponders pseudohashes
16:37 iblech very much so
16:37 autrijus ok.
16:37 autrijus then install DrIFT :)
16:37 autrijus I'll take a stab.
16:38 autrijus you'll be able to use Pugs.CodeGen.Perl5
16:38 autrijus but to hack it you'll need DrIFT.
16:38 iblech ok
16:39 autrijus (and haxml too, while you are at it :D)
16:39 autrijus (that's plan B if yaml doesnt work out)
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16:41 * putter makes daily pilgrimige to nothingmuch's smoke, hoping for a real report on rules... but the gods are silent...
16:44 stevan autrijus: what no .us in your travel plans?
16:44 * stevan is feeling left out
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16:47 autrijus stevan: well, if the airport insecurity thing can be fixed...
16:47 autrijus then maybe :)
16:48 gaal stevan, come to .il! :)
16:48 * autrijus doubt the fingerprinting + mugshot + rude search thing will be fixed in the next 2~3 years somehow
16:49 autrijus stevan: but I'll happily meet you in .ca... or .cu :D
16:49 gaal too bad airport security isn't refactorable haskell.
16:49 autrijus yeah, isn't it.
16:49 gaal can americans come to .cu ?
16:49 gaal ...and not guatanamo?
16:49 autrijus via nonamerican transport means, I think
16:49 autrijus rofl
16:50 autrijus let's _not_ hold a hackathon at guantanamo.cu.
16:51 gaal actually there's part of the bay that's guantanamo*.cu* i think
16:51 gaal jose ...something, i forget, wrote a poem that made it into a famous song..
16:51 gaal "hujira ganatanamera" - means country girl from guantanamo.
16:52 gaal (jose santiago maybe?)
16:52 autrijus yeah, good song
16:52 autrijus José Martí
16:53 autrijus o/~ Yo soy un hombre sincero / De donde crecen las palmas o/~
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17:02 svnbot6 r6227 | putter++ | STATUS: added section on rules.  renormalist++
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17:12 autrijus now writing DrIFT instances...
17:12 svnbot6 r6228 | putter++ | STATUS: shorten section on rules.
17:17 kisu has left "Leaving"
17:18 stevan autrijus: I will try to work on the airport insecurity thing, but since our votes don't really count it is kind of hard ;)
17:18 * stevan has long pondered moving to .ca anyway ....
17:19 stevan ok, gotta go do real-world stuff &
17:19 gaal autrijus, where will you be arriving to .il from?
17:19 elmex has quit IRC ("until later this evening :) have a nice one too")
17:23 autrijus gaal: I don't know yet.
17:24 autrijus maybe .tw, maybe .at, maybe other places.
17:24 autrijus woot, I accidentally wrote a generic dump-any-haskell-expression-to-perl5-objects thing
17:24 autrijus should be useful for other projects as well
17:24 Aankh|Clone :-o
17:24 gaal okay, i'll provide you with travel tips as it becomes closer
17:24 gaal hee!
17:24 Aankh|Clone I wish I had accidents like that...
17:24 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
17:25 autrijus Aankhen``: you'll note that most of my pugs development efforts happened by accident :)
17:25 Aankhen`` Heh.
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17:38 putter lol
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18:29 gaal reading through the haskell prelude, i saw this:
18:29 gaal unzip            =  foldr (\(a,b) ~(as,bs) -> (a:as,b:bs)) ([],[])
18:29 gaal what's "~" ?
18:29 gaal (the Report implementation, http://haskell.org/onlinereport/standard-prelude.html )
18:30 gaal hmm, better ask on #haskell...
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18:50 ods15 ~ is binary NOT
18:50 ods15 atleast in C it is :P
18:51 gaal ods15, i found my answer in #haskell
18:51 gaal it isn't binary not :)
18:51 gaal fwiw, section 4.4 here: http://www.haskell.org/tutorial/patterns.html
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19:14 autrijus iblech: ping
19:14 iblech autrijus: pong
19:14 autrijus iblech: I have done DrIFTing. may I mercilessly break your code?
19:14 iblech autrijus: Sure :)
19:14 autrijus ./pugs -CPerl5 -e 'print f(3); sub f { $_ - 10}'
19:14 autrijus    pilMain => bless({pStmt => bless({pPos => bless({posName => "-e",posBeginLine => 1,posBeginColumn => 1,posEndLine => 1,posEndColumn => 11} => 'MkPos'),pExp => (undef),pNode => bless({pExpr => bless({pLV => bless({pCxt => bless(['TCxtVoid'] => 'TTailCall'),pFun => bless({pLV => bless({pVarName => "&print"} => 'PVar')} => 'PExp'),pInv => (undef),pArgs => [bless({pLV => bless({pCxt => bless([bless(["Any"] => 'MkType')] => 'TCxtItem')
19:14 autrijus etc :)
19:15 autrijus perl5 likes it.
19:15 autrijus I _think_ it's the best form available to you
19:15 autrijus feel free to tweak the production rules if it isn't
19:16 clkao yuck!
19:16 autrijus also you can continue to parse the old "Show" format
19:16 autrijus but it's now all record types
19:16 autrijus so you'd need to deal with that
19:16 autrijus -CPIL still works
19:16 autrijus as does -CPIR and friends
19:16 autrijus DrIFT++ # supremely powerful
19:17 iblech Right. I'll probably port PIL2JS to -CPerl5 tomorrow then :)
19:17 autrijus iblech++
19:17 autrijus iblech++
19:17 autrijus iblech++
19:17 autrijus the class name in particular needs some work
19:17 iblech autrijus++ # You did -CPerl5 :)
19:17 autrijus but I'm sure you can figure it all out.
19:17 autrijus :))
19:17 iblech Yep :)
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19:22 autrijus -CPerl5 is faster than -CPIL, amazingly. I wonder how is it possible.
19:22 svnbot6 r6229 | autrijus++ | * de-GADT PIL structure -- likely to break all PIL2JS work
19:22 svnbot6 r6230 | autrijus++ | * The "Perl5" code generator backend is upon us!
19:22 svnbot6 r6230 | autrijus++ |     ./pugs -CPerl5 -e 'say "Hello, World!"' | perl -MO=Deparse -
19:22 autrijus and perl5 likes Test.pm
19:22 autrijus compiled to perl5
19:22 autrijus hurray.
19:22 autrijus nb. "compiled to perl5 data structure", not "compiled to perl5 code"
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19:22 autrijus but now a naive perl5 runtime for PIL classes may not be that hard :)
19:23 * autrijus dreams on
19:24 putter woot!
19:24 putter autrijus++
19:24 autrijus :)
19:25 autrijus putter: in particular, the naive perl5 runtime you worked on is made much easier
19:26 autrijus it takes 0.1sec to load in the compiled Test.pm on perl5
19:26 putter Could someone summarize the difference between tests run under make test and via ./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/foo.t?  Does make test check exit code or stderr?  I'm getting failures under make test I dont see directly. :/
19:26 autrijus same time needed to load the Test::More perl5 module
19:27 autrijus it checks exit code
19:27 putter ah, thanks.
19:27 putter re runtime, yes. :)
19:42 putter I mostly did my "perl5 runtime in a day" because, well, it was on your (interview) near-term todo list, and I wanted to show that it was easier, and a more immediate option, than some folks were thinking of it as.  iblech then went amazing with the JS backend.  we didnt need two backends pushing the envelope, so I dropped p5.  anyone should feel free to pick it up.  and overhaul or toss the existing code.
19:42 svnbot6 r6231 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/TODO: updated.
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20:08 iblech autrijus: svk add src/Pugs/CodeGen/Perl5.hs? :)
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20:08 svnbot6 r6232 | putter++ | t/rules/rules.t: todo'ed many tests.  All tests now pass when run standalone, but _not_ when run by make test.  The choice of :todo<bug> vs <feature> was semiarbitrary.  And some of the tests are no doubt incorrect.
20:10 iblech ("Could not find module `Pugs.CodeGen.Perl5'")
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20:49 fglock_ hi
20:49 putter hi fglock.
20:50 fglock_ hi putter
20:50 fglock_ i've a few questions on the metamodel
20:52 putter oy.  three tests in subrule.t are currently failing with embedded parrot, but not with external.  a PGE parse failure, unknown rule mumble.  so create a pugsbug test.  only... the contents of the test documentation _pod_ can toggle the bug on and off.  arg!  sigh.
20:52 fglock_ the metamodel it is the infrastructure that the runtime will use to create objects, right?
20:52 * putter is almost certainly not the right person to ask...
20:53 fglock_ :)
20:53 fglock_ i'm a newbie here
20:54 integral the metamodel in .../src/PIL/MetaModel.hs for the haskell PIL evaluator at least
20:55 fglock_ integral: I'm writing a runtime library - I'm supposed to use the metamodel to create my objects, right?
20:56 iblech Hm, FWIW, PIL2JS does not use the MetaModel to store the builtin types (Int, Num, Str, etc.)
20:56 integral *a* metamodel :-)   You'll need to port it to the target system.   eg.  there's metamodels written in perl5 and javascript
20:57 iblech In PIL2JS, the MetaModel is used only for user-defined methods and for dispatching -- i.e. you can still write a method acting on Num, and your call will be correctly dispatched, even though there're no Num objects
20:57 integral err, is the build broken for others?
20:58 iblech It is, apparently autrijus forgot to checkin src/Pugs/CodeGen/Perl5.hs
20:58 integral ah
20:58 putter there are a few flavors of metamodel around.  describing both how objects should behave, and various ways to bootstrap the object system.  obviously, your runtime's behavior should conform, but you can use a different bootstrap if you like.  eg, if your runtime is lazy, some things get easier.
21:00 fglock_ I mean, is there any use to write a "hash" runtime library to Perl5, for example?
21:00 fglock_ except for having the object system "right"
21:00 putter long term, you should be able to just implement a functional non-oo core, and then just load an oo system written in p6.  but that doesnt exist yet.
21:01 fglock_ putter: ok, I get it
21:02 fglock_ so you only implement in the non-oo core the things you don't have natively
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21:11 fglock_ why do I get "::Rat" for floating number refs, instead "::Num" in Pugs?
21:14 iblech ?eval (1/3).ref
21:14 evalbot6 ::Rat
21:14 iblech ?eval sqrt(2).ref
21:14 evalbot6 ::Num
21:15 iblech ?eval (1/3).isa(Num)
21:15 evalbot6 bool::true
21:15 fglock_ ok. I guess it takes 1.345 == 1345/1000
21:16 iblech yep
21:16 iblech ?eval 1.34500000000000000000000000000000000000000001
21:16 evalbot6 1.345
21:16 iblech ?eval 1.34500000000000000000000000000000000000000001.ref
21:16 evalbot6 ::Rat
21:16 iblech ?eval 1.345000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001.ref
21:16 evalbot6 ::Rat
21:16 iblech ok :)
21:19 fglock_ ?eval int(Inf)
21:19 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216
21:22 fglock_ Pugs has 3 types of values - Item, List, Control - what is "Control"?
21:22 svnbot6 r6233 | putter++ | t/pugsbugs/rules_with_embedded_parrot.t: created.  'Cannot parse PGE: <?once>' errors can result from pods and comments, elsewhere in the file, having or not having random alphanumeric text.  But only with embedded, not external, parrot.  Parser instablility???  I'm baffled.
21:25 putter Creating that test file was like working with magic.  Try describing the problem in the pod... without the description making the problem go away.  Eeep.
21:27 iblech Control is what, for example, exit returns
21:28 iblech I.e., exit returns a Control, and the runcode calls Haskell's exit if it sees an appropriate Control
21:28 iblech s/runcode/runcore/
21:29 coral wtf
21:29 * coral looks at "int(Inf)"
21:29 coral out of curiosity what *is* that number
21:29 fglock_ coral: I think it is "maxint"
21:29 iblech ?eval 2**1024
21:29 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216
21:29 coral ok
21:30 iblech ?eval int(-Inf)
21:30 evalbot6 -179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137216
21:30 coral ?eval int(Inf) == Inf
21:30 evalbot6 bool::true
21:30 coral ?eval 1+Inf == Inf
21:30 evalbot6 bool::true
21:30 iblech ?eval 1+int(Inf)
21:30 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137217
21:30 coral heh!
21:31 iblech hrm
21:31 coral ?eval 1+int(Inf)-Inf
21:31 evalbot6 NaN
21:31 putter ?eval 3+int(Inf)
21:31 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137219
21:31 putter ;)
21:31 iblech ?eval int(Inf)*int(Inf)
21:31 evalbot6 323170060713110073007148766886699519604441026697154840321303454275246551388678908931972014115229134636887179609218980194941195591504909210950881523864482831206308773673009960917501977503896521067960576383840675682767922186426197561618380943384761704705816458520363050428875758915410658086075523991239303855219143333896683424206849747865645694948561760353263220580778056593310261927084603141502585928641771167259436037184618573575983511523016459044036
21:31 fglock_ I guess it uses bigints
21:32 coral but not biginfs :)
21:32 putter "I'll see your infinity, and raise you one." ;)
21:32 putter lol
21:32 coral ?eval 1+int(Inf) > int(Inf)
21:32 evalbot6 bool::true
21:32 coral ?eval 1+int(Inf) > Inf
21:32 evalbot6 bool::true
21:33 fglock_ ?eval  +(int(Inf) ~ int(Inf))
21:33 evalbot6 Inf
21:33 * coral blinks
21:33 coral ?evanl -1+int(Inf)
21:33 coral ?eval -1+int(Inf)
21:33 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137215
21:33 coral ?eval int(Inf)-1
21:33 evalbot6 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239947245938479716304835356329624224137215
21:34 putter ?eval int(Inf-Inf)
21:34 evalbot6 -269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708251444699062715983611304031680170819807090036488184653221624933739271145959211186566651840137298227914453329401869141179179624428127508653257226023513694322210869665811240855745025766026879447359920868907719574457253034494436336205824
21:35 iblech ?eval int(NaN)
21:35 evalbot6 -269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708251444699062715983611304031680170819807090036488184653221624933739271145959211186566651840137298227914453329401869141179179624428127508653257226023513694322210869665811240855745025766026879447359920868907719574457253034494436336205824
21:37 jql interesting
21:37 jql and, seemingly, wrong
21:38 jql I find is especially fascinating that int(Inf)*int(Inf) > int(Inf)
21:38 putter ?eval NaN.as("%d")
21:38 evalbot6 \'-269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708251444699062715983611304031680170819807090036488184653221624933739271145959211186566651840137298227914453329401869141179179624428127508653257226023513694322210869665811240855745025766026879447359920868907719574457253034494436336205824'
21:39 putter ?eval NaN.as("%f")
21:39 evalbot6 \'NaN'
21:39 putter ?eval NaN.as("%x")
21:39 evalbot6 \pugs: Ix{Integer}.index: Index (-269653970229347386159395778618353710042696546841345985910145121736599013708251444699062715983611304031680170819807090036488184653221624933739271145959211186566651840137298227914453329401869141179179624428127508653257226023513694322210869665811240855745025766026879447359920868907719574457253034494436336205824) out of range ((0,15))
21:40 * jql chuckles at the idea of C<undef but Inf>
21:41 putter lol
21:41 putter chr(Inf)
21:41 putter ?eval chr(Inf)
21:41 evalbot6 '
21:41 jql my unicode doesn't go that high, clearly
21:41 putter ?eval chr(Inf).bytes
21:41 evalbot6 1
21:41 putter ?eval ord(chr(Inf))
21:42 evalbot6 0
21:42 jql evalbot sent \0 to the server? no wonder the closing quote was lost
21:43 jql ?eval Inf > -Inf
21:43 evalbot6 bool::true
21:43 jql ?eval 0 > -0
21:43 evalbot6 bool::false
21:44 jql okay, haskell isn't totally wacked out crazy
21:47 vcv- has joined #perl6
21:51 fglock_ see you later
21:52 fglock_ has left "Leaving"
21:53 Aankhen`` Yeesh.
21:53 Aankhen`` Crazy spammers. :-P
21:55 putter re unicode, looks like 1114111 is the largest $n for which ord(chr($n)) == $n... :)
21:57 dudley has joined #perl6
21:58 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
21:59 iblech Night :)
21:59 putter g'night!
21:59 * iblech goes to sleep, too
21:59 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
21:59 putter g'night iblech!
21:59 Aankhen`` G'night.
21:59 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("SHIFT TO LEFT! SHIFT TO THE RIGHT! POP UP, PUSH DOWN, BYTE, BYTE, BYTE! [Time wasted online: 9hrs 45mins 16secs]")
22:00 putter << >> .pop .push rx:bytes/^(.)(.)(.)/
22:00 putter (probably got the shift operators wrong though...)
22:02 putter rx:bytes:3x/(.)/
22:47 jql not quite the same... ^
22:47 vcv- has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:47 jql err
22:47 jql wtf am I saying?
22:48 * jql kicks himself in the thinking part
22:51 larsen has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:57 dbrock what do you mean? is it the same?
23:00 putter the only way rx:bytes/(.)/ can fail is if .bytes (ie, length) < 1.  in which case rx:bytes/^(.)/ will fail too.
23:02 dbrock oh, right, and if it matches, it will always match at the start of the string
23:04 putter right
23:07 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:28 putter Ok, I have some rules tests which (1) work when run ./pugs -Iblib6/lib t/foo.t, (2) fail in make test and harness, (3) still fail with ok(eval('...')...).  Any suggestions other than skip those (200+) tests?
23:30 wilx Yeah, fix the cause of the failures :)
23:32 putter ;)   Unfortunately, that's likely to take several people a month or few.
23:33 putter Well, depends on the people of course.  It might just be a few days of intense hack-attack.
23:35 putter Hmm, I realize I've been potentially unclear about :todo status.  for example, the following modified line from rules.t
23:36 putter is(eval('("a]" ~~ /a]/ && $<>)'), "a]", 're_tests 96/0 (#126)', :todo<bug>);
23:36 putter shows up TODO when run standalone, but is recorded as a test failure under make test.

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