Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-08-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 svnbot6 r6551 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - implemented postfix:<...>
00:01 svnbot6 r6551 | fglock++ |   - doesn't work yet, has problems with 'Inf'
00:01 svnbot6 r6552 | putter++ | New $?PUGS_BACKEND defined by Pugs/Run.hs and perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/P5Runtime/PrimP6.pm.  "BACKEND_PUGS" and "BACKEND_PERL5".  I didnt get a chance to give PIL2JS one too.
00:01 putter btw, the BACKEND_foo  names were chosen mainly to be easily changed later...
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00:12 putter Change in plans I think.  Back now for a bit.
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00:49 svnbot6 r6553 | fglock++ | * perl5/Container - added simple Hash stringification
00:50 putter Blarg.  Had a pile of code to run perl/py/rb interpreters as subprocesses, complete with proxying, gc handling.  Would be great for Inline::Pugs.  Darned if I can find it.  Maybe it was on an unbackedup disk which died.  Just a wee tag frustrating.
00:53 putter Was such a nice bootstrap exercise.  Start interpreter foo with minimal repl, then inject the code for whatever flavor(s) of repl you want to use for this connection.  Individual sub calls can run their own protocalls for, eg, binary data transfer.  Sigh.
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00:59 fglock putter: where is the place to implement '{ pair, pair }' - is there a circumfix:<{ }> ?
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01:06 putter fglock: too...
01:07 putter assemble pairs into a hash?
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01:07 fglock I found circumfix:<{}> - trying ...
01:08 fglock yes - I'm implementing hash
01:08 putter I'm afraid that has to be real syntax...  I dont think PIL hashes are payed attention to yet... checking...
01:10 putter nope, your right.  np.
01:11 putter (I just did, in crude_repl, first :v to toggle verbosity on, and then {a=>3} , which gave both PIL and error message.
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01:19 putter Perl6::Instance::JS ?   Perl6::Run::JS ?   for  Mumble->new->eval('say "hi"')
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01:37 putter fglock:  Perl6::Run::JS::Simple ?
01:38 fglock Perl6::Run::JS
01:38 putter does that sound vaguely plausible for a "each object is a js interpreter running p6, but with no object proxying"
01:38 putter I was thinking of saving Perl6::Run::JS for the full object proxying version... but shorter is better.  ok
01:39 fglock If you improve it you can call it Perl6::Run::JS2 :)
01:40 putter :)
01:43 putter Hmm... Perl6::Run::JS::Basic?  ::JSSM?   The idea being proxying games have a performance cost, so even when the full version exists, you might want to use the simpler.   Perl6::Run::JS just seems too grand a name for this little bit.   If JavaScript::ScriptMonkey had a shorter name, I'd use that.
01:43 putter Thus the JSSM.
01:43 putter Ah well.  A ::Basic could be spun off later...
01:48 fglock the hash constructor works - but there are a few bugs to fix in perl5/Hash
01:48 svnbot6 r6554 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - implemented {1=>2,4=>5} hash constructor
01:48 svnbot6 r6554 | fglock++ |   - perl5/Hash needs some work
01:51 putter ooo, neat!
01:54 putter Perl6::Run::JS is in.
01:54 svnbot6 r6555 | putter++ | New Perl6::Run::JS wraps JavaScript::SpiderMonkey, and uses PIL2JS to provide a p6 ->eval().  This is a new role for PIL2JS, and stderr is currently noisy.  iblech++
01:54 svnbot6 r6556 | fglock++ | * perl5/Hash - fixed stringification
01:55 fglock now you can do {1=>2,4=>5} in PIL-Run
01:56 fglock time to go &
01:57 fglock btw - since keys can be objects, this works too: { (1=>2)=>(3=>4) }
01:58 putter good night
01:58 * putter stares at example in puzzlement...
01:59 putter I didnt know you could do that...
01:59 putter :)
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02:25 putter what's perl6 for read a line from STDIN?
02:27 putter =<>
03:11 geoffb what does the "repl" in "crude_repl" stand for?
03:11 revdiablo read eval print loop?
03:11 geoffb Ah!
03:11 revdiablo (just a random guess based on standard meaning of 'repl')
03:12 geoffb I'd never seen it as an acronym, only spelled out completely
03:12 geoffb thanks, revdiablo
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03:20 putter hi geoffb
03:21 putter weeeee... # translating ruby to p6
03:37 putter Interesting that just when ruby is depreciating .id(), replacing it with .object_id(), p6 chooses .id()
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04:22 putter re repl as an acronym, I was worried for a moment, but google suggests its not uncommon.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read_Eval_Print_Loop
04:25 QtPlatypus putter: Its very common, comes from the lisp community, like all good things.
04:25 putter If you are running pugs on windows, you might generate (takes a while) and upload a smoke to iblech's most excellent Pugs Smokehouse (smokeserv).  http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl
04:25 putter QtPlatypus: thanks.
04:30 putter general fyi, I found some old code to run a child ruby under perl5,  and I'm mutating it to do a child perl6.  It vaguely looks like it might work.  If so, the proxy stuff can be used for Inline::Pugs and Perl6::Run::JS.
04:32 geoffb bak . . . hi putter
04:33 putter ;)
04:40 putter iblech: this works, run in perl5/PIL2JS/   perl -Ilib -e 'use Perl6::Run::JS; Perl6::Run::JS->new->eval(q/say "Hello from PIL2JS!"/);'  but it doesnt (cant find Precompiled Prelude) when run from root by  perl -Iperl5/PIL2JS/lib -e 'use Perl6::Run::JS; Perl6::Run::JS->new->eval(q/say "Hello from PIL2JS!"/);'
04:47 * geoffb yawns to clear his mind
04:47 geoffb Get a little more oxygen in there . . .
04:53 geoffb Man, it is just freaky quiet in IRC land . . . all of the channels I'm on are simultaneously quiet.
04:58 * autrijus purrs
05:00 luqui hi autrijus
05:00 geoffb *scritchscritchscritch*
05:00 luqui how can I help with PIL2?
05:00 geoffb How's it going, autrijus?
05:00 autrijus just woke up.
05:01 geoffb awake is good, we can work with that
05:01 geoffb Monday there, yes?
05:01 autrijus yeah.
05:01 autrijus still a bit dizzy. I'll grab food and brb
05:01 geoffb k
05:02 geoffb oh for heaven's sakes . . . sigh
05:03 luqui lilo is the spambot
05:03 geoffb heh
05:04 putter In the absence autrijus's journal, I'll note that today was interesting.  iblech created a server for the sharing of smokes ( http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl ), and fixed the long-standing PIL2JS bug of .pairs not working.  fglock continued to put flesh on the infant perl5 runtime, moving from Arrays, including lazy ones(!), on to Hashes.  And it turned out that JavaScript::SpiderMonkey could run the PIL2JS generated J
05:04 putter avaScript, so now there are the beginnings of a Perl6::Run::JS perl6-on-spidermonkey-embedded-in-perl5 runtime.  And autrijus connected PIL-Run and Inline::Pugs for the first time. And leo stopped by to share the great news of PyPy's milestone.
05:04 geoffb For putter's birthday, I'm going to buy him a couple extra enter keys . . . .
05:05 putter lol :)  ahh.  sorry.
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05:05 geoffb putter, np, it's just getting to be a running joke.  :-)
05:05 putter ;)
05:05 putter good night all &
05:05 geoffb g'night, putter
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05:11 autrijus baack
05:12 * geoffb runs in fear and hides in a hidden room accessed through a false door in his closet
05:12 geoffb Oh, wait, it's just autrijus, phew
05:13 QtPlatypus wb autrijus.
05:15 autrijus rehi :)
05:15 geoffb Are you all moved, autrijus?
05:15 autrijus geoffb: partly; will probably take another weekend
05:16 autrijus luqui: you can help by noting -- and collecting -- desugar rules
05:16 geoffb How far apart are the old and new places?
05:16 autrijus geoffb: ~40min
05:16 autrijus by car
05:16 geoffb mmm, desugar.  I could use some of that, for all of the sickeningly sweet foods sold in the U.S.
05:16 geoffb not too bad
05:17 autrijus as we know perl6 has +Inf layers of syntactic aspartame...
05:17 geoffb Wait, you're on an island.  Do you own a car?
05:17 geoffb heh
05:17 geoffb (Last I heard cars on islands were expensive!)
05:17 autrijus yup, and no I don't, my family helps driving and moving things
05:18 geoffb Something I never would have thought of until someone explained the cost of a Hyundai on the island he worked on.
05:18 geoffb cool.
05:20 * autrijus plays with perl6-on-spidermonkey-embedded-in-perl5.
05:20 geoffb And you thought you were pushing the bleeding edge of sanity compiling Perl 6 to Haskell . . .
05:23 luqui autrijus, do I put those in code form or in doc form?
05:24 autrijus luqui: whichever one you prefer, but for now I think doc form showing how p6 is rewritten with p6 will help
05:24 luqui okay, can do
05:25 autrijus luqui: also, the builtin traits are too magical
05:25 luqui autrijus, btw, I am now proficient in haskell, having used most of the abstractions to build real things
05:25 luqui I don't know pugs yet, but barebones haskell is not a problem
05:25 autrijus oh wow. real things?
05:25 luqui like tic tac toe with an AI :-)
05:25 autrijus the builtin traits -- like "export" and container annotation -- are so magical that currently we hard code checks for them in the consumer code
05:26 autrijus but theoretically it needs to be done with trait_auxillary:<is>
05:26 luqui hmmm...
05:26 autrijus only that how it works, and how much still need runtime support, is a blur
05:26 luqui well, some of them could well just be markers that are checked at some hook point
05:26 autrijus well yes, I know the process, but I can't write them down as code yet
05:26 autrijus that's desugaring
05:26 luqui aa soo
05:27 autrijus tic tac toe with AI sounds fun
05:27 luqui so basically we take all the abstract BS that we've been spouting on the list and make it into real code
05:28 autrijus I saw the crazy thing that is Symbol::Opaque
05:28 autrijus yes, because as currently stands the BS needs to be hardcoded into each runtime
05:28 autrijus and the interaction is becoming hard to reason about
05:28 luqui ahh, what'd you think about Symbol::Opaque?
05:28 autrijus so some BS simply doesn't get fixed or implemented quickly enough
05:29 autrijus so the lag between p6l and p6c may become greater because of this -- and if all of the BS are exposed as rewrite rules and trait_auxillary:<is>, then we can deal with them sanely
05:29 luqui good, I like that approach
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05:30 autrijus I think it's clever, but I want Devel::TypeCheck to work with that too
05:30 autrijus ...and I want a ponie-shaped cake
05:30 luqui :-)
05:30 luqui data constructors really change the way that I can approach problems though
05:30 luqui it made my type inferencer sketch very much easier
05:31 autrijus have you read about the "expression problem"?
05:31 luqui nopers
05:31 autrijus ok. I think it's a very good read, and shed a lot of light on p6 design
05:31 autrijus orignial problem statement: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~mads​t/tool/papers/expression.txt
05:32 autrijus Scala's solution: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~madst/​tool/papers/independently.pdf
05:32 autrijus chase its biblio to see other language's solutions -- so far Scala's is one of the most convincing ones
05:32 ingy hi autrijus
05:32 autrijus as soon as I learned about the expression problem, I saw that in all large-scale programs I write
05:32 autrijus which makes me much more careful :)
05:32 autrijus ingy: hey!
05:33 luqui hmm
05:33 ingy autrijus: msged you...
05:33 autrijus ingy: didn't see it
05:34 ingy autrijus: just tried again... I saw you
05:35 autrijus ingy: nope, not getting thru. weird. try skype?
05:35 autrijus ah
05:35 autrijus I know, maybe I wasn't identified
05:36 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
05:36 autrijus try again
05:36 ingy I did
05:36 ingy ichat?
05:36 autrijus I need to reboot for that
05:36 ingy what is your skype?
05:37 autrijus autrijus
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05:42 autrijus bbl...
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06:32 Supaplex 00:29 -!- Irssi: Join to #perl6 was synced in 84295 secs
06:32 Supaplex like wtf? :P
06:32 * Supaplex beats irssi down like a red headed step child
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06:40 coral heh, wow
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07:17 geoffb You know you're having a bad sysadmin day when you find yourself debugging server problems by telneting to a port and speaking raw protocol
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07:38 Juerd geoffb: I have too many bad sysadmin days :(
07:39 * Juerd always speaks raw SMTP to test SMTP servers.
07:39 Juerd And raw POP3 to test user's passwords :)
07:39 geoffb heh
07:39 Juerd I don't trust clients (software. although I often don't trust the people either)
07:39 * geoffb is trying to upgrade IMAP servers, and of course they do everything differently
07:39 geoffb heh
07:39 Juerd IMAP I do not usually speak raw
07:40 Juerd For IMAP I have Mutt.
07:41 geoffb Yeah, I started by playing with Mutt, but realized that I wasn't sure if I was giving Mutt bad info, or the server bad config
07:41 geoffb hence dropping to raw
07:41 Juerd The most awful thing about upgrading/switching IMAP servers is the uidvality thingy
07:41 Juerd I want to get rid of courier on some boxes
07:41 Juerd And install dovecot on it
07:41 geoffb come to think of it, I think that's the very upgrade I'm doing
07:41 geoffb :-/
07:41 Juerd But that means I have to patch dovecot to mimic courier's values, or all clients will see all mail as new :(
07:42 Juerd And error when trying to receive any of the old messages
07:42 Juerd It is a fairly straightforward patch, but I'm afraid to do it
07:42 Juerd I've been postponing this for more than a year now.
07:43 Juerd These things do teach me that ignorance is indeed bliss
07:44 geoffb grrr, this is pissing me off
07:45 Juerd What's up?
07:45 geoffb actually, flags on messages look fine, I'm not sure that's still a problem . . .
07:46 Juerd Do you have any Outlook client?
07:46 Juerd (non-express)
07:46 geoffb What's getting me now is that I can't seem to invoke the magic to make it understand I want to keep /var/mail/... for INBOX
07:46 Juerd Hmm
07:46 geoffb No, just OS X and Linux
07:47 Juerd I use ~/Maildir, and dovecot picked that up by default... somehow...
07:47 geoffb There's a config line for setting INBOX that way, but either the example in the config file is wrong, or I'm doing something fubar.
07:47 geoffb oh, wait!
07:48 * Juerd waits patiently
07:49 geoffb dammit, I thought it might be a permissions issue
07:49 geoffb nsl
07:49 Juerd What's your default_mail_env set to?
07:49 Juerd That may be easier than finding the right place to get MAIL set
07:50 geoffb give me a sec, trying a couple combinations of things first
07:51 GeJ has joined #perl6
07:52 Juerd gej' is esperanto for gay.
07:52 geoffb As in happy, or as in homosexual?
07:52 GeJ that and in polish also IIRC
07:52 Juerd As in homosexual
07:52 Juerd Happy-gay would be gaj
07:53 GeJ thanks for reminding me this difficult episode of my life (as in my first days on IRC when all the polish guys around were asking me on a date)
07:53 GeJ thanks
07:53 geoffb oy
07:53 Juerd Hehe
07:53 Juerd I'd first have to see a picture :P
07:54 GeJ could we change the topic? Junctions, Metamodel, Type inference, anything? :)
07:55 geoffb Juerd, OK, I've tried all combinations of not setting default_mail_env (to get autofind), setting mbox:~/Mail/:INBOX=/var/mail/%u, and setting mbox:%h/Mail/:INBOX=/var/mail/%u
07:55 geoffb keep getting "Imap command "SELECT" failed" from OS X mail, and while I see the ~/Mail folder contents, I get nothing out of /var/mail/foo
07:55 geoffb bah
07:56 geoffb GeJ, sorry, Juerd and I were ranting at each other about sysadmin hell, in particular, upgrade of Courier IMAP to Dovecot IMAP, when you walked in.
07:56 geoffb OT, but definitely on my mind.  :-)
08:01 GeJ geoffb: no problemo. Sysadmin day was a few weeks ago. Time to get the rants back gain. :)
08:02 Juerd geoffb: Try stracing the server
08:02 Juerd That usually provides valuable insight
08:02 Juerd In particular, I recommend "strace -feopen $whatever_you_use_to_start_the_thing"
08:03 Juerd And remove the "eopen" if this doesn't already give enough info
08:03 geoffb that is definitely something to do when it is not 1 AM local . . . .
08:03 geoffb OK, will try
08:03 Juerd Why so?
08:03 geoffb Because I'm falling over tired
08:04 Juerd Then take a short brake and submerge your head in some cool water
08:04 geoffb heh
08:04 geoffb I'm thinking of submerging my head in a cool pillow, actually
08:05 geoffb g'night, folks
08:05 GeJ 'night geoffb
08:05 Juerd Heh
08:05 Juerd That works too
08:05 Juerd Good night
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08:08 nothingmuch morning
08:08 GeJ morning
08:08 Juerd Hi
08:44 * nothingmuch makes cute animal sounds
08:44 * QtPlatypus looks oddly at nothing much and makes cute animal sounds back.
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09:05 GeJ should we call it purrrrl6 now?
09:06 * QtPlatypus laughs.
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09:16 GeJ I hate my life.
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09:17 lhooq GeJ: sorry, you can't have another one
09:18 GeJ I found a new programming technique. Along XP, TDD, Agile methods, I think I just found a new one I will call "Nonsense Programming" and prolly write books about it.
09:18 GeJ No matter what angle I choose to explore this code, I just can't figure out how to maintain it and even extend it.
09:20 GeJ The perfect example of "Big Ball of Mud"
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09:36 svnbot6 r6557 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
09:36 svnbot6 r6557 | Stevan++ | * reworking of some aspects of the relationship between $::Class and $::Object
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09:56 QtPlatypus Can some people test MIME-Base 64 and tell me how long it takes?
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10:28 QtPlatypus ?seen putter
10:28 QtPlatypus seen putter
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10:48 svnbot6 r6558 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
10:48 svnbot6 r6558 | Stevan++ | - the new metamodel is now bootstrapping
10:48 svnbot6 r6558 | Stevan++ | * added class:: pseudo package to handle class
10:48 svnbot6 r6558 | Stevan++ |   method dispatching
10:48 svnbot6 r6558 | Stevan++ | * added tests for Point example from A12
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11:57 ods15 ?
11:58 ods15 i want to match either digits, literal ., or :
12:00 Juerd Why?
12:00 Juerd What do the digits and dots represent?
12:01 ods15 a proxy server
12:01 Juerd An IP address?
12:01 Juerd 'cause 123.456.789.0 is an invalid IP
12:02 ods15 yes
12:02 ods15 hehe
12:02 ods15 i'
12:02 ods15 err
12:02 ods15 i'm not that anal, i just want it to match right
12:02 ods15 hell that pattern will even match 1234567889 or ..... :P
12:02 Juerd Then why even be specific?
12:03 ods15 my input is valid, just want to be sure i'm parsing it right
12:03 ods15 and apperantely i'm not cause i'm grabbing nothing :/
12:03 Juerd Can't you just split it on delimiters?
12:03 ods15 there is no delimiter, it's a "complicated" text file
12:04 ods15 they used '*******************************' as a frggin "delimiter"
12:04 ods15 stupid
12:04 ods15 anyway, bbl
12:05 ods15 doh, i did =0 instead of =1 ...
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12:30 hoowa hi tang are you here ?
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14:02 * nothingmuch hates the sourceforge download links
14:02 nothingmuch why do they say 'foo-1.2.3.tar.gz' as a link if it's not really that file?
14:02 nothingmuch why isn't it 'select mirror for foo-1.2.3.tar.gz'?
14:03 nothingmuch (this is WRT to external pointers, like for example, the project's home page)
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14:06 fglock nothingmuch: they used to send you to an html page with a redirect to the actual file. Download managers are supposed to deal with this
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14:13 putter QtPlatypus: re MIME-Base64, I'm still >5min, but my pugs installation is a bit bOrked at the moment (left old pugs in path during build.  concequences... interesting.  which is probably a bug.)
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14:14 putter I may not actually be seeing any new code.
14:14 fglock hi putter
14:15 putter hi fglock.  how goes?
14:16 fglock trying to figure out the implementation of %a{1,2,3}=(4,5,6)
14:16 putter ah. :)
14:17 fglock I think %a{1..Inf} is valid, but everybody say it doesn't
14:17 PerlJam fglock: valid but not likely to finish :)
14:18 fglock why? it can be lazy
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14:19 fglock for example %a{1..Inf}.keys --> (1..Inf)
14:20 PerlJam fglock: would you also expect %a{'a'..'z'}.keys to give you 'a'..'z' instead ov <a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z>  ?
14:20 fglock sure
14:21 PerlJam Hmm.
14:21 putter oh, drat.  blew away the log file of the bOrked make.  :(   Basically, pugs build directory b1 was in PATH, while make'ing build b2.   The b2 og began with a lot of ext/ "skip because b1 foo.pm is unchanged".  Which is not quite the right thing.  I believe I saw b1 appearing elsewhere in the  make  output as well.  fyi.
14:23 PerlJam fglock: I guess as long as it's clearly defined where laziness is no longer lazy that would be fine.  I kind of expected .keys to be one of those places where the lazy became eager.
14:24 PerlJam Same thing for assignment, but the eagerness propagates from the RHS to the LHS so that %a{1..Inf} = 'a'..'z' would be fine, but %a{1..Inf} = 1..Inf wouldn't.
14:26 fglock %a{1..Inf} is resolved to %a{1..26}='a'..'z'; %a{27..Inf}=(undef)xInf;
14:27 fglock just like lazy array slices
14:27 fglock %a{1..Inf} = 1..Inf is the simplest case
14:36 PerlJam fglock: I guess I just don't have a good mental model of when Lazy becomes Eager
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14:37 fglock I think it only happens when you ask **@a
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14:46 putter QtPlatypus: re Base64.t, with a fresh r6558, and a command of  ./pugs -Iblib6/lib ext/MIME-Base64/t/Base64.t  after 5+ pugs cpu minutes, nothing has happened beyond "1..3".  fyi.
14:46 putter x86_64 linux FC3
14:46 putter later &
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14:57 svnbot6 r6560 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - Added support for store() past the end of the array
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16:52 svnbot6 r6561 | fglock++ | * perl5/List - new methods shift_n() pop_n() - provide lazy access to sublists
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17:18 vkon ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
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17:24 zaphod QtPlatypus: for what it's worth, my Base64.t is running now has 38:44 minutes CPU time, 96,204kb RAM allocated, and still it says "1..3"
17:24 zaphod QtPlatypus: pugs r6557 on WinXPpro
17:25 vkon does ?eval working? I saw a message that evalnot has quit irc; something broken?
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17:26 zaphod perlbot: seen evalbot6?
17:26 wilx has joined #perl6
17:26 vkon s/evalnot/evalbot/; it isn't working?
17:26 zaphod vkon: I don't see him here
17:27 vkon aha... if it isn't here then no '?eval'... okay, will know
17:29 zaphod vkon: I'm starting one right now
17:30 vkon a file t/rules/rules.t is obviously generated somehow from perl5's tests; but it is not mentioned which script was used; yet it contains some documented bugs; any information on this?
17:30 zaphod wow, that's _slow_ :-)
17:31 zaphod vkon: sorry, no
17:31 vkon zaphod: thanks
17:31 vkon ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
17:32 zaphod vkon: is still not connected...
17:33 zaphod mmm no, wait
17:33 zaphod is connected, but didn't join the channel :-)
17:33 zaphod ohhhhh sh*t
17:34 zaphod evalbot's README.pod is b0rked
17:36 pugsbot has joined #perl6
17:36 zaphod finally!
17:36 zaphod ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
17:36 pugsbot (no output)
17:36 zaphod ?eval 2+2
17:36 pugsbot (no output)
17:36 zaphod mmm :-)
17:36 vkon ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
17:36 pugsbot (no output)
17:36 zaphod I get a 'Can't locate BSD/Resource.pm in @INC'
17:36 pugsbot has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:37 zaphod let's try again
17:38 vkon as long as evalbot is on feather.perl6.nl, and it is working there (just tried), there should be no error message :)
17:38 zaphod vkon: no, this one is running on my machine
17:38 pugsbot has joined #perl6
17:38 zaphod ?eval 2+2
17:38 pugsbot (no output)
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17:39 zaphod ohhhh
17:39 vkon zaphod: however, I'm fine without evalbot; it just strange to see it not working...
17:39 zaphod I guess evalbot can't run on Win32
17:46 pugsbot has joined #perl6
17:46 zaphod ?eval 2+2
17:46 pugsbot Impossibile trovare il percorso specificato.
17:46 zaphod stupid, stupid bot :-)
17:46 zaphod ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
17:46 pugsbot Impossibile trovare il percorso specificato.
17:46 pugsbot has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:47 zaphod bah
17:49 vkon zaphod: your perlmonk's nick is dada, isn't it?
17:51 svnbot6 r6562 | iblech++ | examples/network/evalbot/README.pod: Added more documentation, zaphod++.
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17:55 zaphod vkon: yes, it is
17:55 zaphod I _am_ dada, in fact, but freenode doesn't know :-)
17:56 vkon zaphod: mine is Courage... Now, that I read readme on evalbot, I'll try restarting it myself from feather.perl6.nl
17:57 iblech vkon: Try perl -MBSD::Resource -we 1 first -- if it doesn't work, evalhelper.p5 won't either
17:57 iblech Hi all BTW :)
17:58 vkon yes, it isn't there...
17:58 zaphod hi iblech :-)
18:00 vkon ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
18:01 geoffb (big crowd cheering)  I-BLECH!  I-BLECH!  I-BLECH!  I-BLECH!
18:01 geoffb :-)
18:01 pugsbot has joined #perl6
18:01 zaphod ?eval 2+2
18:01 pugsbot (no output)
18:01 zaphod ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
18:01 pugsbot (no output)
18:01 zaphod sheesh
18:01 iblech geoffb: :D
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18:02 iblech geoffb: BTW, I've noticed your memo a few minutes ago
18:02 geoffb um, what memo?
18:03 iblech geoffb: And the answer is no, state doesn't work yet in PIL2JS
18:03 geoffb oh, from several days ago?
18:03 geoffb right, gotcha
18:03 geoffb They need to make memos a tad more obvious
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18:04 iblech (It's because Pugs.Parser does some hacks to make state work in the normal runcore, and these hacks cause all things containing state variables to not even compile to PIL)
18:04 geoffb Time to beat Pugs.Parser into submission?
18:04 geoffb Or are there bigger fish to fry?
18:06 iblech Yep, currently working on getting P5-regex support into PIL2JS (putter created a Prelude/JS/Rules.pm, I'm integrating it now) -- according to putter, this will give PIL2JS approx. +10% test passes :)
18:06 vkon ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION
18:07 geoffb w00t!
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18:14 zaphod vkon: ooooooh, you are also perlce's admin!
18:16 masak ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
18:16 vkon zaphod: unfortunately I didn't did anything useful on perlce for a long time... but still hope to improve that project...
18:16 Xyo has joined #perl6
18:17 * Xyo welcomes all!
18:18 zaphod vkon: I know, I know. I follow the ML, I also posted some times ago :-)
18:18 zaphod vkon: I'm the one that was unhappy with the console
18:19 geoffb ping Juerd
18:22 Xyo I have a question from a beginner (don't kill me, please).  When I try to compare IP address with string "0.0.0.0/0" , prel says: Argument  isn't numeric in numeric ne (!=). How can I fix it?
18:23 zaphod Xyo: wrong channel, this is #perl6. join #perl instead
18:23 Xyo ok, bye
18:24 Xyo has left "Leaving"
18:33 vkon file t/rules/rules.t bothers me... it states it was generated, but no mention like /do not edit, your changes will be lost/; last-author=putter ... is it edited manually now? or will be re-generated?
18:35 zaphod vkon: it says "# This file has been generated from re_tests-file (in perl5-sources).
18:35 zaphod "
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18:41 iblech vkon: IIRC someone converted perl5's rules test to PGE's format for inclusion in Parrot, and then somebody converted it to Perl 6 for inclusion in Pugs's testsuite. I don't think that it still gets autogenerated
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ | * Added "smoke-*.html" to the svn:ignore of ".".
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: More work on P5-style regexes.
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |   * PIL2JS.js: Improved support for calling methods on objects which are, even
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |     though they're boxed, don't belong to us.
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |   * PIL2JS.js: Added "Rul" and "Match" classes, with appropriate
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |     stringification, numification, and booleanification.
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Rules: Integrated putter++'s work -- this means that
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |       if $str ~~ rx:P5/.../ {...}   # works now
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |       say $/[0];                    # does not work yet
18:42 svnbot6 r6563 | iblech++ |   * README: Added section about regexes.
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18:47 iblech xinming: I'm reviewing your changes to slurpy_param.t now
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18:53 iblech xinming: Great work, didn't found any mistakes :)
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18:54 vkon iblech: thanks
19:00 masak iblech: what's the "Rul" class? I've been away for a while
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19:01 Khisanth probably a typo :)
19:02 iblech masak: You'll have to ask putter for the details -- basically, Rule is a role, and Rul is the standard class which does Rule
19:02 iblech (rx/.../).ref =:= Rul
19:02 masak ah, I think I get it
19:02 Khisanth that is a pretty lousy naming scheme!
19:02 PerlJam I agree
19:02 * zaphod agrees too
19:03 masak got any better ideas? :)
19:03 zaphod Rulez? :-)
19:03 masak lol
19:03 Khisanth Lure ;)
19:03 PerlJam Just use Rule.  roles function as classes when used as such.
19:03 masak that's right
19:04 masak so why don't we here?
19:05 masak maybe I should ask putter...
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19:05 PerlJam If you must have 2 same-named-but-different-implementation things, at least hungarianize the names.
19:06 luqui poke autrijus
19:08 masak PerlJam: there's a big misunderstanding about Hungarian notation. maybe you know this
19:08 masak http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html
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19:12 PerlJam masak: yes, I know this.
19:13 masak PerlJam: good, I wasn't sure by your comment :)
19:13 * luqui is reading it
19:16 luqui hmm, this is an interesting technique
19:17 luqui what we would really like to do, though, is to put that logic in the type checker
19:17 luqui yay for hookable type checkers
19:18 * masak has been wishing for a typesafe scripting language lately
19:19 masak ...maybe perl6 will be it
19:19 * luqui sure hopes so
19:19 luqui recent developments in my brain have convinced me that typechecking isn't all bad
19:19 luqui just Java/C++ typechecking is bad
19:19 masak :( yes
19:19 QtPlatypus zaphod: Ok thanks.
19:20 luqui of course, this is totally easy with data constructors :-)
19:21 masak luqui: how do you mean?
19:21 luqui data Unsafe a = Unsafe a ; request :: String -> Unsafe String ; encode :: Unsafe String -> String
19:21 luqui you can't print an Unsafe String, because it has no print hook
19:21 luqui (no Show instance :-)
19:21 * luqui is very much liking haskell
19:21 * QtPlatypus wonders about this, for him the Base64.t takes a few seconds but for other people it takes extreemly long "I wonder if its a matter of 64bit vs 32bit hardware"
19:22 * masak likes what he understands of haskell...
19:23 zaphod QtPlatypus: BTW, I've killed it :-)
19:23 * luqui wonders if he can massage C++ into having data constructors
19:23 luqui probably need a set of macros :-(
19:24 luqui and then there's the expression problem
19:24 QtPlatypus So it never terminated?
19:24 zaphod QtPlatypus: no
19:25 masak luqui: would it be possible in perl5 today?
19:25 QtPlatypus damn
19:25 iblech QtPlatypus: Just tried Base64.t here (x86, Gentoo Linux), I ^Ced after ~~30s (no output except the "1..3" plan)
19:25 zaphod QtPlatypus: it was running since 1 hour at 100% CPU fixed, so I killed it
19:25 luqui masak: already did it: see Symbol::Opaque
19:25 luqui but it would be a runtime check, of course
19:26 masak luqui: of course. thanks, i will.
19:26 QtPlatypus What platform do you guys use?
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19:34 zaphod QtPlatypus: WinXPpro on Pentium4
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19:44 putter hey folks.
19:44 putter let's see...
19:44 fglock hi
19:46 masak putter: what's the exact difference between Rule and Rul?
19:48 putter zaphod: rules.t's days of being autogenerated are long gone.  Originally created for an obsolete spec of regexs, its been hand maintained for a while.   Might be worth recreating from scratch.  But that might be easier with a regex parser.  Which will exist as soon as a few pugsbugs are fixed, or... PIL2JS may almost be ready for it... hmm...  
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19:50 putter ah, next question, Rul vs Rule vs Pugs::Internals::VRule.  Rul is intended to be a class implementing a role Rule.  Name analygous to Int vs Integer, Str vs String, etc.  Not spec!  Basically, there are. and are going to be, a variety of rule implementations kicking about for a while. <enter for geoffb>
19:51 masak putter: someone asked, if Rul is just a class implementing the role Rule, why not use the same name for both?
19:52 putter Some primitive, some native, some hybrids.  Some participating in object system, some faking it, some not.  So it seemed worth separating ui, Rule, from all implementation stuff.  pugs has Pugs::Internals::VRule, and a Rul, which is not yet being used because of pugsbugs.  PIL2JS... well, that's my Xmass present for the day.  I haven't opened it yet. ;)
19:53 putter EOF
19:54 masak putter: I think I see the difference now. thanks for the explanation
19:55 putter masak: basically because all rules development at this point is still "everything is really buggy, try to find a way to weave through it to get functionality".  So the primary, buy a long shot, design criteria is "what might help bug dodging".  Reducing coupling is one approach.
20:03 svnbot6 r6564 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
20:03 svnbot6 r6564 | Stevan++ | * adding on the UI/macro layer in Perl6::MetaModel
20:03 svnbot6 r6564 | Stevan++ |    - class 'Foo-0.0.1' => sub { ... } working (see docs)  
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20:06 masak putter: ah, so it will get better eventually. I can live with that. :)
20:11 brentdax has joined #perl6
20:15 putter :)
20:17 brentdax autrijus: ping
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20:33 svnbot6 r6565 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - some cases of splice() that were not lazy are fixed.
20:33 svnbot6 r6565 | fglock++ |   - a few tests now fail because arrays are now sharing lazy lists
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20:48 svnbot6 r6566 | vkon++ | clean some errors from t/rules/rules.t
20:52 putter iblech: ping?
20:54 iblech putter: pong
20:54 iblech putter: I got $/[0] etc. mostly working :)
20:54 putter :)
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20:56 putter I've (it was easy) added m// and //.  (Though without p6 rules support, // is just a way to an error message.)  Would you prefer large chunk checkins, or nibble ones?
20:59 iblech large chunks are fine with me
20:59 svnbot6 r6567 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - added more tests for splice()
20:59 svnbot6 r6568 | fglock++ | * fixed comments
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ | * pugs::hack: Minor cosmetic fixes.
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ | * t/var/refs_point_to_containers.t: Fixed a test (but it could be said that the
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ |   test was correct, I don't think that has been specced yet).
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ | * t/rules/*: Fixed the skip_rest_unless_p5style_re​gexes_are_available_guards.
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: $/[0] etc. works!
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ |   * PIL: (Hack) Subs named /^&PIL2JS::Internals::Hacks::init_foobar/ are run at
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ |     INIT time.
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Rules: $/ := $match, .[] for Match objects
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL2JS.js: (HacK) All things which .isa(Num) are .isa(Int) .isa(Rat)
20:59 svnbot6 r6569 | iblech++ |   now, too.
21:02 fglock iblech, putter: I'll restart working on hashes soon. I need to know - is it acceptable to have a hash slice take a lazy list?
21:02 putter iblech: ok, tnx
21:03 putter fglock: I sooo have no idea.  anyone?
21:03 iblech fglock: I think a hash slice can of course be lazy (%hash{"a".."z"}), but assigning to an infinite hash slice should probably not work, as we have subs for that. Not sure though, ask p6l?
21:04 iblech I.e. %hash{"a" .. "z"} = ... (no problem), %hash{3...} = ... (error)
21:04 iblech But I'm really not sure...
21:05 fglock do you mean "subs" == plain functions?
21:06 iblech Yep.
21:08 fglock just in case, before I ask in p6l - why %hash{3...} should be an error? It could slurp the arguments and then stop
21:09 putter iblech: there is no immediate need, but for completeness, I note Match also  has an integer value.  bool, int, str, arr, hash.  I left that out of the sketch for simplicity, not realizing, silly me, it would all magically come into existence a day later. ;)  sorry.
21:10 iblech fglock: Sorry, I was unclear. %hash{3...} = <a b c> shouldn't be a problem, but anything which makes the hash become infinite should raise an exception (e.g. %hash{3...} = (3...)).
21:10 svnbot6 r6570 | putter++ | Rules.pm: now accepts m// and // in addition to rx//.
21:11 iblech putter: +$match == +~$match, right?
21:12 iblech putter: IIRC there was some discussion that +$match should return the number of submatches, but that was quickly ditched
21:14 putter hmm, the last I've seem (but I havent been looking) was Damian's capture post of...
21:15 putter http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/20985
21:16 putter which has a distinct integer value, usually 1, except in :g and :x.   But that was May, and preliminary, so perhaps its changed...
21:17 putter googling...
21:17 iblech IIRC it was changed to mean the numification of the stringification in the very same thread
21:20 putter hmm... there's a thread here  (reading...) http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.languag​e/browse_thread/thread/1223c3f11e0a6444/f9cd6419a​979a749?lnk=st&amp;q=perl6+match+%22integer+value​%22+2005&amp;rnum=1&amp;hl=en#f9cd6419a979a749
21:21 svnbot6 r6571 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - arrays are fully "sparse"
21:21 svnbot6 r6571 | fglock++ |   - you can now assign values to any array address 0..maxint
21:23 iblech Larry: "I think we already said something like that once some number of
21:23 iblech months ago.  +$1 simply has to be the numeric value of the match. "
21:23 putter ok.  weee.  some really insane (declined) proposals there.  sounds good.
21:23 geoffb fglock, haven't looked at the code yet, but are fully sparse arrays still O(1) for access to keys in "normal" range?  In other words, is the Big-O performance profile still good for non-sparse usage?
21:24 putter iblech: tnx
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21:25 iblech putter: np :) Rerunning smoke now...
21:26 chip I've been reading the standard, and it seems there's no way to get writeable access to the contents of a std::string.  This seems ... odd.  Is it really true?
21:26 svnbot6 r6572 | putter++ | Rules.pm: separate out (still unimplemented) :global case.
21:26 chip ww
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21:28 fglock geoffb: no, I've simplified the algorithm - I'll do optimizations after everything works
21:29 fglock I'm coding the hard cases - the easy (fast) cases can be added later
21:29 geoffb fglock, fair enough -- as long as the optimizations come some day.  :-)
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21:31 fglock in an ideal world, if you don't use arrays as objects, Perl 6 should generate code for native arrays
21:31 geoffb Man, I love having 'updatedb' run in 1 second . . ..
21:32 geoffb fglock, that's a real damn ideal world you're thinking of
21:32 svnbot6 r6573 | iblech++ | t/var/refs_point_to_containers.t: Revert my r6569, my bad, I was wrong, the
21:32 svnbot6 r6573 | iblech++ | test was correct.
21:34 svnbot6 r6574 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
21:34 svnbot6 r6574 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL2JS.js: Unbreak method calls on Bools.
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21:35 geoffb iblech, how's PIL2JS doing against the test suite?  Is everything in to get that extra 10%?
21:36 iblech geoffb: I had to restart the smoke a minute ago, so we will know in ~~40min
21:36 geoffb (y)
21:38 iblech (y) == why? -- Because I accidentally broked method calls on Bools, see commit message of r6574 :)
21:39 putter iblech: what are your feelings about Perl6::Run::JS?  cute toy, or useful way to use PIL2JS?  If latter, could get access to system(), parrot, etc, via perl5.
21:39 svnbot6 r6575 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - removed last pieces of non-lazy algorithms in splice()
21:39 geoffb sorry, no, (y) is a thumbs-up emoticon on some clients (similarly, (n) gives thumbs-down)
21:39 fglock should lazy Arrays warn when you are doing something stupid? like '@a=lazy_read_from_file; @b=@a; shift @b;' - @a no longer points to the first line of file
21:39 iblech putter: Everything related to Pugs is a cute toy :) But Perl6::Run::JS is definitely useful, too :)
21:40 geoffb Got in the habit at a previous company, and it stuck (even though my current client doesn't translate it at all :-)
21:40 iblech geoffb: ah, ok :)
21:40 iblech fglock: oooh! If it's possible to warn from an implemention point of view, then definitely, yes! :)
21:43 fglock another possibility would be to create a shared buffer that would compensate for this problem
21:44 fglock I'm dealing with this problem on a test failure right now
21:44 putter iblech: I ran ./pugs-smokejs on rules/perl5.t... but I had to kill pil2js as it went by 3GB
21:44 putter :(
21:45 iblech fglock: I like that even more :)
21:45 iblech putter: :( Sadly I think it's perl5 which has a memory leak, not my code
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21:46 iblech putter: (Because a lone "$self;" changes thing drastically, perl's internal state or whatever are b0rked, I assume)
21:46 iblech Might be worth to try it with 5.9.x
21:50 putter ok.  I think I even have one around.  also, looking at at perl5.t, a little "common case optimization" might dramatically improve the test results.  (though I'm not sure what js provides beyond ecma)
21:50 * iblech will rewrite PIL::PApp:131-153 to use no closures (i.e., I'll manually lambda-lift) when the smoke finishes, maybe this helps
21:51 iblech ...And if JS had goto, we would instantly be twice as fast...
21:51 iblech Maybe there's __spidermonkey_internals_hack_do_not_use_goto? :)
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21:52 putter I'm going to do global first, get the captures to be matches, and then look at test results / optimize some common cases (eg, I'm not sure js has (?i)...)
21:52 geoffb There's something for you to do -- add goto to spidermonkey.  :-)
21:52 putter lol
21:53 iblech putter: Great!
21:53 putter actually, given the pain of installing JavaScript::SpiderMonkey, and the glacial rate of jssm development, adding a patch wouldnt cost tooo much install pain.  could codegen differently for slow/portable and fast/hack versions... ;)
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21:54 putter or do JavaScript::StrangeMonkey which has spidermonkey included, and patched, and thus the whole thing easier to install than JavaScript::SpiderMonkey is...
21:55 * putter isnt sure if this is all good insane or bad insane... the line is so fuzzy sometimes ;)
21:55 geoffb The only way to know is to cross the line and see what happens.  :-)
22:01 fglock create a fork and name it SpiderParrot
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22:12 svnbot6 r6576 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - updated TODO
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22:26 putter iblech: what does [] become in js?
22:26 iblech putter: &circumfix:<[]>(...)
22:32 iblech Beh, ran into perl's alligator :(
22:32 luqui ?
22:32 brentdax <random>I wonder if there's enough magic in Perl to make "a"... work.</random>
22:33 luqui hmmm?
22:34 iblech luqui: perl5.8.7 seems to swap variables or so... a lone "$self;" used to "fix" it
22:34 brentdax "a"... ~~ "a", "b", ..., "aa", "ab", ...
22:34 luqui eeeew
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