Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-04

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:08 elmex_ this is no gain
00:08 elmex_ over vain
00:08 elmex_ (away)
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00:41 elmex_ GNAA
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01:04 elmex_ ???
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01:28 elmex_ obvious
01:28 elmex_ the dead seed is in the grain of the void
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03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ | PIL-Run
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - fixed dir-name-with-spaces in Windows (crude_repl.pl)
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - added support for 'Inf' value; fixed '1..Inf' and '1...'
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ | new subs: .isa(), .does(), .splice(), .hex()
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - 'a'..'z'; but string-decrement doesn't work yet
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - basic .warn()
03:07 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ | perl5/Array
03:08 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - fixed Pair stringification in (1,2,3).pairs
03:08 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ | perl5/Code
03:08 svnbot6 r6676 | fglock++ |   - fixed Code-do() return context (bug found by putter++)
03:44 svnbot6 r6677 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - @a = (1..Inf) xx Inf creates an Array (Inf x Inf)
03:44 svnbot6 r6677 | fglock++ |   - (1..Inf) x 10 is a string
03:44 svnbot6 r6677 | fglock++ |   - @a[1][2] works; @a[1;2] doesn't compile
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04:38 svnbot6 r6678 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - pair(), list(), abs()
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05:08 svnbot6 r6679 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : rearranged the POD sections in KeyedText.pm so they are all below the code, and moved copyright to the end ... all in sync with Perl 5 version changes
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ | Fixed the Net::IRC ~~ problem.  It was rather subtle and it represents a problem more general than
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ | this specific case.  Analysis:
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ |     1) Apparently "is primitive" operators don't get their own lexical pad
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ |     2) "when" is written in terms of &infix:<~~>, not &*infix:<~~>
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ |     3) That means that "when" uses whatever &infix:<~~> was in innermost scope in the caller
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ |     4) Somehow there was an &infix:<~~> defined in Net::IRC (but I don't know how)
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ | I solved the problem by fixing #2.  In general, operators that are defined in terms of other
05:26 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ | operators *must* fully qualify the name of the operator they are using.  Also, "is primitive"
05:27 svnbot6 r6680 | luqui++ | subs should fully qualify all operators they use.
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05:32 svnbot6 r6681 | autrijus++ | * correct fglock's email adddress: s/Egmail.com/gmail.com/
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07:28 xinming good job everybody, This ticket is in my bag now, Will move to BeiJing next day 08:00AM GMT+8 :-)
07:29 xinming bbl
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07:31 luqui ?eval 42
07:31 evalbot_6681 42
07:31 luqui WOOHOO
07:31 luqui finally
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07:33 svnbot6 r6682 | luqui++ | Created a warning that warns when you try to export an operator.  The problem
07:33 svnbot6 r6682 | luqui++ | came up with Set that exported &infix:<->, thus *overriding* the default
07:33 svnbot6 r6682 | luqui++ | numeric minus, and causing wacky infinite loops all over the place!
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07:39 svnbot6 r6683 | luqui++ | Fixed set to do what the warning tells it to: instead of exporting operators,
07:39 svnbot6 r6683 | luqui++ | it multifies the global ones.
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08:16 luqui ?eval sub apply(&infix:<+>, $a, $b) { $a + $b }   apply(&infix:<*>, 3, 3)
08:16 evalbot_6683 9
08:16 luqui coool
08:22 xinming ?eval sub foo(&infix:<haha>, $a, $b) { $a haha $b }; foo(&infix:<**>, 3, 3);
08:22 evalbot_6683 Error:  unexpected "h" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
08:23 xinming hmm, It's said, we can define the operator ourown... hmm, So, will this example be "true" in real perl 6?
08:24 xinming ?eval sub foo(multi infix:<haha>, $a, $b) { $a haha $b }; foo(&infix:<**>, 3, 3);
08:24 evalbot_6683 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting "?", "*", "+", "++" or parameter name
08:25 luqui xinming, the former of those should work
08:26 xinming luqui: thanks.
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10:35 rafl geoffb: Hm. I think I agree.
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10:54 geoffb rafl: :-)
10:55 geoffb luqui++ # Nice fundamentals work
10:56 luqui geoffb, hmm?
10:56 geoffb luqui, the last several operator commits
10:56 luqui oh, thank you
10:57 geoffb you're welcome  :-)
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11:31 geoffb mmmm, pasta . . .
11:31 nothing_pasta i'm getting hangs on ext/MIME-Base64/t/Base64.t
11:31 * geoffb is getting hungry
11:31 nothing_pasta and ext/Net-IRC/t/basic.t
11:31 nothing_pasta pugs has 100% cpu
11:32 nothing_pasta geoffb: how's your forth progressing?
11:33 geoffb Actually, woke up about an hour and a half ago having figured out what to do next.
11:33 geoffb So right now, hacking away.  :-)
11:33 nothing_pasta so what is it that you are  doing next?
11:34 geoffb BTW, is there some (perl 5) module that will allow you to iterate over an array two elements at a time, like Perl 6 'for @foo -> $x, $y'?
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11:35 geoffb Words are no longer defined as the values of the dictionary hash; the dictionary rather contains pointers to data cells containing the definitions, like a real Forth would.
11:35 geoffb This then allows me to implement JZ and JMP, and therefore control flow ops
11:35 Aankhen`` I wish Pugs would build for me. :-(
11:35 * Aankhen`` whines.
11:35 luqui Aankhen``, what is your arch?
11:35 Aankhen`` Win32.
11:35 luqui mm
11:35 geoffb Aankhen``, I feel the plight of your people, my brother.
11:36 luqui Aankhen``, do you use feather?
11:36 Aankhen`` luqui: No.
11:36 luqui any reason?
11:36 Aankhen`` Yes, parting with my name.
11:36 luqui ?
11:37 nothing_pasta geoffb: what is your threading model?
11:37 Aankhen`` I have to send an e-mail to Juerd with my real name. :-)
11:38 luqui does your name have some kind of quantum non-copying property?
11:38 Aankhen`` Nah, I just don't like to give it out
11:38 Aankhen`` .
11:39 luqui well... umm...
11:39 geoffb nothing_pasta, the current plan is that @DATA doesn't just contain Perl integers, it can also contain coderefs.  So any coderef found while executing is native code (duh), and anything else is a word to call.
11:39 luqui you have a trade-off :-)
11:39 nothing_pasta ah
11:39 * nothing_pasta hashes the codref primitives into integers
11:40 nothing_pasta everything is a primitive
11:40 geoffb nothing_pasta, :-)
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11:40 nothing_pasta bsr, <address> making a clal
11:40 nothing_pasta call
11:40 nothing_pasta some things are arguments to primitives, like where to jump
11:40 geoffb Well, I'm taking it one step at a time, starting from simplest possible idea first.
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11:41 geoffb nothing_pasta, nodnod, that's one of the things that popped into my head this morning.
11:42 geoffb JMP and JZ are actually coderefs followed by a jump target cell, and the coderef does effectively IP = $DATA[IP + 1] if jump is taken
11:42 geoffb obvious, I know, but I'm new to this part of the compiler writer's biz.  :-)
11:43 nothing_pasta btw, all you *really* need is jnz
11:43 nothing_pasta : JMP R@ CELL + @ IP ! ;
11:43 nothing_pasta where IP is the instruction
11:44 nothing_pasta instruction pointer
11:44 Aankhen`` You people scare me.
11:44 geoffb Aankhen``, <voice character="dope-peddler">Try it, you'll LIKE it ...</voice>
11:44 nothing_pasta the CELL + is whether BSR set the address before or after the jump
11:45 geoffb Are 'CELL +' and 'CELL+' the same?
11:45 Aankhen`` <voice character="whiny-little-girl">MOMMY, MOMMY, THAT MAN IS ACTING WEIRD!</voice>
11:45 nothing_pasta geoffb: i guess so... those words are "faster"
11:46 nothing_pasta 1+ is one assembler instruction, 1 pushes 1, + sums to TOS
11:46 nothing_pasta well, 1+ is really load to reg, inc reg, smash stack head
11:46 geoffb nodnod, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't confused.
11:46 * geoffb gets very little sleep these days, and feels like he's thinking upstream all the time
11:46 nothing_pasta now, here is, IMHO, where the user shouldn't optimize
11:47 geoffb Aankhen``, heh
11:47 nothing_pasta because : FOO + ; : BAR 1 FOO ; should compile down to the same thing : BAR 1+ ; would
11:47 geoffb nodnod
11:47 * nothing_pasta continues the <voice character="somewhat-out-of-context-person">
11:48 geoffb heh
11:48 nothing_pasta anyway, i'm getting hungry too
11:48 geoffb brb, stomach now growling with all these pasta references, must go grab food from kitchen
11:48 * nothing_pasta spent all morning watching TV, trying not to move
11:48 geoffb heh, jinx
11:48 nothing_pasta skin--;
11:48 geoffb ?
11:50 * nothing_pasta has atopic dermatitis
11:50 nothing_pasta basically, the immune system is reacting as if i'm allergic to something, but to nothing at all
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11:51 nothing_pasta so the skin in my elbows, throat and face is painful
11:51 nothing_pasta normally it isn't as bad, it's just kind of dry
11:51 nothing_pasta but now it's a really bad eczema
11:51 geoffb um, should you have been doing all that construction stuff given that condition?
11:52 geoffb Forget that, I'm sounding like a mother
11:52 geoffb Once you become a parent, it's hard to stop.  :-)
11:52 nothing_pasta well, it started yesterday, and went away early morning
11:52 nothing_pasta and then it started again this night
11:52 geoffb yucko
11:52 nothing_pasta i suspect it was the paint
11:53 nothing_pasta but it's probably more due to the stress of a screwed up house for 3 weeks
11:53 nothing_pasta and the cement dust, which is an irritant
11:53 nothing_pasta irritants leads to scratching, scratching leads to more irritation, etc etc
11:54 geoffb nodnod
11:54 nothing_pasta anyway, i'm on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihistamine
11:55 * geoffb finally gets around to joining #forth . . . .
11:56 geoffb Any particular antihistimine?
11:56 geoffb God, wikipedia is just amazing
11:57 geoffb I can only assume that several existing info repositories decided to dump content into wikipedia at some point, because in some fields it's just insanely detailed.
11:57 geoffb Math, for instance
11:58 geoffb I'm guessing by all the linkage on this page, medicine as well.
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12:14 luqui geoffb, also keep in mind that math is very easy to (poorly) write about once you know it
12:15 luqui and there are a lot of math geeks
12:15 luqui where wikipedia suffers is in pedagogy.  many of the articles are only approachable by people who already know what the article is saying.
12:15 geoffb fair enough.  My advanced math skills are far too weak to tell if the wikipedia articles are incorrect . . . .
12:16 luqui no, they're probably right
12:16 geoffb Hmmm.  You may be right there.
12:16 luqui a concept of difficulty n has a bunch of links to other concepts of difficulty n or > n
12:17 * luqui should really really really go to sleep now
12:17 * luqui is very tired
12:17 geoffb yes, I have found that . . . but I could often get enough context from wikipedia articles to understand what someone was refering to elsewhere
12:17 geoffb sleep, luqui . . . enjoy
12:17 * luqui Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz​zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz &
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13:44 svnbot6 r6684 | rafl++ | * Removed =pod tag. It prevented a proper NAME tag in the generated manpage
13:44 svnbot6 r6684 | rafl++ |   which is important for mandb/apropos/whatis/etc.
13:44 svnbot6 r6685 | rafl++ | * Added proper copyright statement as requisited by LICENSE.txt.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | Debian Package:
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Added license of examples/hop6 to debian/copyright.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Install some more manpages into the pugs package.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Added ability to build optimized or unoptimized base on DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Fixed syntax error when running tests.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Run smome-all by default when running tests.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Added ability to change the tests being run with the TESTS environment
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ |   variable.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Added ability to send the generated smoke htmls to the smokeserv. This can be
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ |   disabled by setting DONT_SEND_SMOKE to something true.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Install lintian overrides for pugs-modules to prevent "unusual interpreter"
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ |   warnings.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Don't generate a pugs.1 manpage. Link to pugs::run instead.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Remove extra license file for hop6.
13:56 svnbot6 r6686 | rafl++ | * Remove empty files in the pugs-doc package.
13:56 svnbot6 r6687 | rafl++ | * Fixed shell glob for smoke html files.
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14:08 svnbot6 r6688 | rafl++ | * Move Inline::Pugs manpage from pugs to pugs-modules.
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14:32 svnbot6 r6689 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
14:32 svnbot6 r6689 | iblech++ | * debian/pugs.links: Fixed typo:
14:32 svnbot6 r6689 | iblech++ |   Commit message of r6686 said "Link to pugs::run instead.",
14:32 svnbot6 r6689 | iblech++ |   but pugs.links pointed to pugs::hack, rafl++ please double check my fix :)
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16:42 putter rafl: smoke, rather than smoke-all, should be the default.  at the moment smoke is pugs (and smoke-pugs is missing), but that will likely change with time.  smoke-all is for development.  It is both dangerous (smoke-perl5 nonterminates, smoke-js exhausts swap), and discouraging (will happily spend a machine-stressing hour generating a useless smoke because some environment variable was wrong).
16:43 putter oh, and smoke-all may require odd extras (eg, spidermonkey, SBCL, etc).
16:47 rafl putter: OK, I'll change that as soon as I get back to my development box again.
16:58 putter sounds good.  :)
16:59 putter Do the debian mirrors maintain any kind of stats on how often something is downloaded?  (random curiousity)
17:02 pjcj http://popcon.debian.org/
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17:07 putter pjcj: interesting.  thanks.
17:08 putter Just now created a smoke-pugs target.  I've some hesitancy about the name, but eh.
17:08 svnbot6 r6690 | putter++ | Makefile.PL: Created new smoke-pugs target, which existing smoke target now calls.  rafl++
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17:17 rafl putter: No.
17:17 rafl But there's the popularity-contest.
17:18 rafl putter: Usually the targets are called smoke-${backend}. So what about smoke-haskell?
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17:23 putter ratf: sounds plausible.
17:25 * putter begins to think about how we will deal with multiple front-ends, and backend variants (eg, js linked with p5 vs not), and decides to invite others to do so instead...
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17:35 putter frontends**<1..2> -> pil**<1..3> -> optimizer**<0..?> -> backend**<4..?>
17:36 putter err, pil**<3..?>
17:44 integral is the build (Pugs.Internals) meant to be broken at the moment?
17:45 putter it seems unlikely... I just built r6690 a moment ago with...
17:45 integral ok, it's my broken environment then :)
17:46 putter with no problem.
17:46 putter ;)
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18:20 svnbot6 r6691 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel2.0 - adding some prototypes to the chaos.pl functions
18:26 putter hmm... "" =~ /(?:(a?)){3}/  matches, $1 is defined, but $2 isnt.  I can understand that behavior with + or *, but with {3}...?!?
18:28 Juerd There is no second set of parent.
18:28 Juerd parens even
18:28 Juerd So there is also no $2
18:29 Juerd /(foo(bar))(baz)(?:quux(xyzzy))/
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18:29 Juerd ^$1  ^$2   ^$3         ^$4
18:29 Juerd well, almost :)
18:29 Juerd /(foo(bar))(baz)(?:quux(xyzzy))/
18:29 Juerd ^$1 ^$2   ^$3         ^$4
18:30 Juerd It's about the left parens
18:30 Juerd Repetition has no relevance
18:32 putter right.  thank you Juerd.  p5+p6 brain stirfry.
18:38 putter Juerd++  # thanks.
18:40 Juerd yay, ego boost :)
18:45 putter :)
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ | * new, bless and CREATE are no longer Object class methods
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ |   instead they are now Class instance methods
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ |     - cleaned up some tests and code to reflect this
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ | * pneuma.pl now calls $::Class->new() to create $::Object
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ |   instead of the ::create_class function from gnosis.pl
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ | * it is now possible to subclass $::Class because of all this
19:21 svnbot6 r6692 | Stevan++ |     - see new test t/09_subclassing_Class.t for example
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19:32 putter could someone summarize the transformation rule which simplifies  /.X(.+)+X/  so it can run against bbbbXcXaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?
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19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS:
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |   * PIL2JS.js: Beginning of real multi handling,
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |     might need changes to -CPIL.
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |   * PIL, PIL::Assign, PIL::Subs, PIL::PStmts: no warnings "recursion"
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |   * PIL::PApp: Rewrote $possibly_ccify_many as a real sub using no closures and
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |     pass-by-ref.
19:38 svnbot6 r6693 | iblech++ |   * runjs.pl, pil2js.pl: Tweaked resource limits a bit.
19:55 svnbot6 r6694 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Work towards a working "class A { method b {...} }".
19:55 svnbot6 r6694 | iblech++ | * PIL: Emit class declarations as given by...
19:55 svnbot6 r6694 | iblech++ | * P5 Prelude::JS: ...the P5Macro &Class::_create.
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20:01 Aankhen`` G'night.
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20:03 renormalist hi all
20:05 renormalist I started an emacs perl6 mode for Emacs by deriving it from cperl-mode and adapting new Perl6 syntax so that indenting and highlighting works again. I would like to contribute that into Pugs. Whom do I ask for interest?
20:06 coral this is a good place to ask that question
20:19 svnbot6 r6695 | rafl++ | * smoke instead of smoke-all when building the Debian package.
20:19 svnbot6 r6695 | rafl++ | * pugs suggests pugs-doc.
20:19 svnbot6 r6695 | rafl++ | * Clean smoke html files properly.
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20:21 * putter looks forward to having an emacs mode adapted for p6... (currently using perl-mode)
20:22 putter renormalist: do you have commit permission already?
20:23 renormalist not yet
20:24 putter If not, it's as simple as saying "I'd like to commit permission to contribute X!".  Though some times of day, like perhaps now, there may not be anyone with committer creation permission awake.
20:24 * putter waves wand of committer creator invocation...
20:25 * putter waits hopefully...
20:25 renormalist Ok, I would like to contribute that, and therefore would be thankful to commit permission
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20:29 putter hmm.  21-03 GMT tends to be a bit quiet.
20:30 renormalist just in case I get permission, how does it then work? I currently have svn checked out, but quite anonymously. Do I get a login/password and re-checkout or svn switch with login/pw?
20:31 renormalist (I know svn, just not the Pugs access policy)
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20:33 putter "permission" in a technical sense.  pugs has a very "here, have a commit bit, please" policy.  someone asks you for your email, tickles openfoundry, which emails you a "invite", ... and I fuzzily recall it was simple from there.
20:34 renormalist ok
20:35 renormalist Tonight there seems no one awake, right? Di I ask here again later (tomorrow) or should I email someone?
20:36 renormalist s/Di/Do/
20:37 putter tommorow, at a different time of day, might be your best bet.  actually, if you /msg me your email, I'll pass it on if I'm around and I see a  renormalist: give me your email address
20:38 putter normally the turnaround is just a few minutes, but, well, not at the moment.
20:38 putter :/
20:38 renormalist np :)
20:39 putter :)
20:41 justatheory has joined #perl6
20:41 renormalist i cant /msg here (have to read faq ...)
20:42 nnunley has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:42 renormalist putter: I read your testing but cannot write
20:44 * putter goes to see who is on the committer-committer list...
20:50 renormalist putter: I sent you my email address
20:50 putter autrijus: gaal: iblech: nothingmuch: Stevan: theorbtwo:  I invoke thee.  renormalist needs a commit bit.
20:50 putter (sometimes mentioning the name rings a little irc browser bell in some distant part of the planet)
20:51 putter ok, I'll pass it on.
20:51 putter sorry for the hassle.
20:52 * putter imagines a vcs which, like a subscriber-mostly mailinglist, allows "commits pending review".
20:54 renormalist np, thanks, I will wait and ask again tomorrow if nothing happens
20:55 putter prolog regex engine up to 64% of perl5.9's re_tests
20:55 putter renormalist: sounds like a plan.
21:01 coral passes? fails?
21:01 coral oh, in progress. neat. is it doing well?
21:04 Juerd Could someone please send me a virus by email? I'm getting a lot of viruses and want to see the log in realtime.
21:04 Juerd (For a known virus)
21:06 Juerd Nevermind
21:11 putter coral: 960 tests, 616 pass, the rest fail but for one skipped non-termination (previously mentioned).
21:12 putter re_tests isnt the entire perl5 re test suite, and there is no p6 yet, but it seems hopeful.
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21:44 rafl Do you guys use vim and utf8? I got problems to get it working with an utf8-enabled xterm. gvim works fine, though.
21:47 Juerd Make sure first that screen isn't the problem.
21:47 Juerd Or ssh
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22:05 rafl Juerd: It's on a local terminal without screen.
22:06 wolverian rafl, what kind of problems?
22:06 Juerd rafl: That certainly helps
22:06 Juerd rafl: locale?
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22:16 godsmacker Juerd: It's on a local terminal without screen.
22:18 godsmacker Pulling 6695 revisions from svn sucks, btw.
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22:33 QMario has joined #PERL6
22:34 QMario Hello everyone!!! :)
22:34 QMario Is anyone here?
22:35 QMario Wow! This channel is quiet.
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22:50 QMario Why do people use such profane language?
22:50 lscd such as?
22:59 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
22:59 QMario Iscd, such as "F", "S", "B", "D", "Gd", and "A".
22:59 QMario Hello Amnesiac! :)
22:59 Amnesiac greetings
23:00 lscd QMario: hm.. emotional impact? lack of vocabulary? sometimes substitutes really lose something
23:00 luqui QMario, well, it's a generational distinguisher
23:01 luqui you don't see too many people over twenty-five (who aren't criminals) using excessive profane language... well, I don't, at least
23:01 luqui QMario, do you consider Perl 6 to be a swear word?
23:01 QMario Luqui, no.
23:02 luqui :-)
23:02 QMario It is 2 words, but not swear words.
23:02 QMario Iscd, do you use them?
23:03 QMario Iscd and Luqui. Ask about me in #Perl.
23:03 QMario Have you heard about me there? :-/
23:03 lscd swear words? yes, i admit i've fallen into that habbit
23:03 lscd though i am < 25, and very rarely use them online
23:03 QMario Iscd, can you break out?
23:03 lscd yep
23:03 QMario Why don't you then, if you know they are wrong to use.
23:03 lscd i'd debate that they're 'wrong' to use
23:04 lscd obviously, there are social contexts where they're unacceptable
23:04 QMario Anyway, what did the people say about me in #Perl?
23:04 QMario Iscd, which cases?
23:05 lscd hm? which cases are they acceptable in?
23:05 QMario Yes.
23:06 lscd some forms of poetry/music; saying, for instance, 'posterier' instead of a* ruins some rhymes, and carries very different connotations
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23:07 lscd aside from that, different social contexts have somewhat different rules
23:07 lscd i find that, speaking in the native language of this area, a lot of people (including well-educated ones > 25) swear a _lot_
23:07 QMario lscd, they could use synonyms of 'posterier' instead of "A".
23:07 QMario "A" is reserved for "fool" and "donkey". Is it not?
23:08 lscd QMario: the point is, different words occupy different linguistic positions; there are whole sets of connotations associated with every synonym
23:08 lscd it is not, indeed
23:08 lscd there are also swear words, in some languages, which really don't have good replacements
23:08 lscd english is fairly swear-poor
23:09 QMario Grrr.
23:09 lscd although you'd be hard-pressed to find another word as versatile as the f-word; there are some things floating online talking about its use as a noun, verb, etc, etc
23:09 QMario Noun?
23:10 QMario Who made up that word anyway?
23:10 lscd yes, noun
23:10 lscd it comes from old french, i believe
23:10 QMario It should have been used to point to good things instead of bad things.
23:10 lscd would you have no words for bad things?
23:10 lscd and one could argue that some uses of it are positive, i suppose
23:10 QMario Yes. In a perfect world, there are no bad things.
23:11 lscd disagreed
23:11 QMario Iscd, who could argue that?
23:11 lscd that said, i think we could agree our world isn't perfect
23:11 QMario Iscd, yes.
23:11 lscd QMario: unless all things were exactly the same, some would be worse than others, no?
23:11 lscd .... therefore, in comparison, they would be 'bad'
23:11 QMario Heaven is perfect though.
23:11 lscd i don't believe in heaven
23:11 QMario So is God.
23:11 lscd nor do i believe that any models of it i've heard of are anywhere near perfect
23:12 lscd i don't believe in that either
23:12 QMario Do you think that murderers should get away with their deeds?
23:12 QMario Are you a "murderer"?
23:12 lscd not afaik
23:12 lscd i'm actually vegan
23:12 QMario What does "afaik" mean?
23:12 lscd and i try to minimise killing even of, say, bugs
23:13 lscd 'as far as i know'
23:13 lscd and no, but the definition of 'murderer' gets very vague very fast, though there are cases pretty much everyone can agree on
23:13 QMario lscd, are you a rationalist?
23:13 lscd what's a rationalist?
23:14 QMario It is a person that tries to make bad things seem "good".
23:14 QMario And vice versa.
23:14 lscd by that definition, no, other than possibly for the sake of debate
23:15 lscd i do believe in questioning assumptions
23:15 QMario Such as saying that gossip is information that that person needs to know.
23:15 QMario lscd, do you believe in Hell?
23:15 lscd perhaps in some cases it would be, though i'm no fan of gossip
23:15 lscd nope
23:16 lscd i don't accept any concept of an afterlife, rebirth, etc
23:16 QMario Do you think that murderers should get away with their deeds?
23:16 QMario lscd, so you think after you die, it is the "end"?
23:16 lscd QMario: i think that that is a more complicated question than a straightforward 'no' acknowledges; are soldiers in wars murderers? resistance fighters? what about assisted suicide?
23:16 lscd QMario: essentially
23:17 QMario lscd, murder is killing a person made in God's image, except if God tells you to kill that person.
23:17 QMario Killing humans.
23:17 lscd QMario: i don't believe that a god exists
23:17 lscd hence, I don't believe that he/she/it/they can tell you to kill anyone
23:18 QMario lscd, then why don't you kill your country's president/prime minister?
23:18 lscd QMario: i'm anti-violence
23:18 QMario Do you feel bad after doing something wrong?
23:19 lscd generally, though obviously, that depends on things like my perception of wrong
23:19 lscd QMario: re: murder - it's a term which is used in very different ways by different people; in the strictest definitions, i do agree that it's wrong
23:19 QMario Do you think that each person should define what is right or wrong in their own eyes?
23:20 lscd yes, and i think that it's a moral duty of anyone who decides to seriously explore the concepts of right and wrong to do so
23:20 lscd there is a fair amount of overlap between people honestly looking, i believe
23:21 QMario lscd, that makes no sense then.
23:21 QMario There has to be a "right" and a "wrong" or this world will be in chaos.
23:21 lscd QMario: well, this world already is in chaos ;)
23:21 lscd aside from that: i'm not rejecting that
23:21 lscd we said -in their eyes-, not 'absolutely'
23:21 lscd obviously, people can be wrong
23:22 lscd i don't think we can know with 100% certainty what's right and wrong in all situations; i think we can have pretty good ideas, based on honest thought, dialog, history, etc
23:23 lscd this world is often fuzzier and greyer than some absolute belief systems like to abstract it to
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23:48 QMario What does Hyper Transport mean?
23:48 buu hahahhaha
23:48 buu qmario is trolling p6 now
23:48 QMario Buu, you are here?
23:48 QMario Why?
23:49 buu I am everywhere.
23:50 buu I am omniscient and omnipotent.
23:50 QMario It says you are currently on #Perl6, but not on #Perl. You make no sense.
23:51 QMario What does the term "trolling" mean?
23:52 lscd QMario: generally, acting provocatively, and possibly causing disturbances to others
23:52 lscd for instance, if i started saying "perl sucks" here, that would count as trolling
23:52 lscd especially if i didn't try to justify it
23:53 lscd there are subvarieties of trolling, such as crapflooding; see wikipedia if you want details
23:55 lscd EvanCarroll Elly: The perl guide sucks then, like libertarians <-- that would be an example of  trolling
23:58 buu lscd: Bah, crapflooding isn't trolling.
23:58 lscd buu: it's not one of the higher forms of trolling, sure

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