Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:06 svnbot r6915 | putter++ | PIL-Run - basic my() and temp()
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01:09 putter stevan_: ping?
01:10 stevan_ putter: pong
01:10 putter what would be involved in upgrading PIL-Run to mm v2?
01:10 putter is that a reasonable thing to be thinking about at this point?
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01:11 stevan_ putter: sorry.,.. trying to get the new client working
01:11 stevan_ putter; mm2.0 is not yet finished
01:12 putter np
01:12 putter ok, so the right thing is to defer the upgrade for later
01:12 stevan_ putter: yes
01:12 stevan_ I am trying to keep the interfaces/APIs the same
01:12 putter great.  tnx.  looking forward to it :)
01:13 stevan_ however, some fundemental parts of the design have changed
01:13 stevan_ so there might be some bits that need tweaking
01:13 stevan_ and to be totally honest, I am not 100% how the MM and the runtimes will fit together
01:14 putter hmm... I suggest you feel free to make api changes on whim.  we have a very very small code base at the moment.  better to get things right early,
01:14 stevan_ you, fglock and iblech are blazing new trails :)
01:14 stevan_ I was going to look at PyPy to see how they did it actually
01:15 putter I'm just sweeping up behind the parade.
01:15 stevan_ but, I have to run right now,.. be back in later tonight
01:15 putter ok.  main question answered.  thanks. &
01:15 stevan_ putter++
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01:44 new-b hello
01:44 dudley hello
01:45 new-b hi dudley
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02:37 stevan_ luqui: ping
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03:11 luqui stevan_, pong
03:12 stevan_ luqui: hey
03:12 luqui grass
03:12 svnbot r6916 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
03:12 svnbot r6916 | stevan++ | * fixing GC issue again, since I upgraded my perl
03:12 svnbot r6916 | stevan++ | * testing the ability to disambiguate method calls by using the $::Package
03:12 svnbot r6916 | stevan++ |   interface to fetch the method first, then call it
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03:13 stevan_ luqui: Call::Immediate very interesting
03:13 luqui thanks
03:13 * luqui is going to use it for Class::Theory
03:14 stevan_ what is Class::Theory
03:14 luqui it's my type-class-like object model that I described to you a little while ag
03:14 luqui ago
03:14 stevan_ ah yes
03:15 stevan_ hey,.. do you have a link on that?
03:15 stevan_ you deleted it from the pugs repo
03:15 luqui on which?
03:15 luqui oh, yes, I did
03:15 stevan_ just information on it
03:15 stevan_ it was a Scala thing right?
03:15 luqui I'll bounce you the message I sent to sixperl
03:15 luqui yeah
03:15 stevan_ yes, please
03:15 stevan_ I would like to read more on it
03:16 stevan_ you got my interest, then you deleted it :P
03:16 luqui sorry
03:16 luqui had to rethink my ideas
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03:16 stevan_ not a problem :)
03:16 luqui still rethinking them :-)
03:16 luqui sent
03:16 stevan_ mucho gracias
03:18 stevan_ luqui: have you read TAPL yet?
03:18 luqui no, it was just suggested to my by autrijus yesterday
03:18 luqui trying to get my hands on it
03:18 stevan_ ah
03:19 luqui (my university has it as an online paper, but they have it set up so I can't download it, so I have to read it on campus )-:
03:19 * stevan_ just started reading it,.. but it is making my eyes cross
03:19 luqui hmm, chances are it'll make my eyes cross for a little while until I "get it"
03:20 stevan_ chances are you will "get" more of it than I am
03:20 luqui that's how these things usually work.  It's not incremental learning, it's all-at-once :-)
03:20 luqui we'll see
03:21 stevan_ I "get" the gist of it,.. its the real heavy math stuff which gets to me
03:21 stevan_ and the terminology
03:21 stevan_ but I have already learned a bunch and I am only on chapter 4
03:21 stevan_ so it is worth the effort
03:22 luqui Yeah.  It'd probably be good for me to start proposing things out of books rather than my ass
03:22 stevan_ :D
03:23 stevan_ hey, dudly and I were talking about trying to do some pugs-related Scala stuff
03:23 stevan_ you should join in
03:24 luqui hmm?
03:24 luqui like what?
03:24 stevan_ I was thinking the metamodel
03:24 stevan_ I was thinking the metamodel
03:24 stevan_ bah,.. damn keys
03:24 stevan_ I am obsessed though,.. so it doesnt have to be that
03:24 luqui ahh
03:25 * luqui might want to learn scala...maybe
03:25 dudley I started playing with it today, but I got hung up on Scala's unit testing and didn't get further than P6Opaque
03:25 stevan_ hey dudley :)
03:25 dudley biab
03:25 dudley hello!
03:26 * luqui goes into windows where he can get on the university vpn
03:26 stevan_ luqui: so a theory really has nothing to do with a class
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03:26 stevan_ bah
03:36 dudley hmm, so where should the scala mm live?
03:36 dudley I think perl5/ is getting a little overloaded...
03:37 stevan_ dudley: I agree,.. although I am not sure we have a better place at the moment
03:37 dudley Not that I have anything to commit yet :-)
03:37 stevan_ I think perl5 is fine for now,.. there is talk of relenging this weekend,.. so we can move it then
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03:38 stevan_ dudley: so what about Scala Unit testing got you hung up
03:38 * stevan_ has only downloaded and ran hello world with Scala
03:38 dudley It's not quite complete.
03:38 stevan_ ah
03:38 dudley there's not a TestRunner
03:38 stevan_ thats an issue maybe
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03:38 dudley it only reports failures
03:40 stevan_ luqui: your theory Base looks straight outta TAPL
03:41 stevan_ dudley: how good is the Java interface? can we use JUnit?
03:41 dudley It shouldn't be too much of a problem, I don't think. I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
03:42 luqui the example?
03:43 stevan_ luqui: yes
03:43 luqui well, that's probably because I got the example from autrijus
03:43 stevan_ :)
03:43 luqui who probably got it from the book
03:43 luqui it's the one he used to show me GADT in haskell
03:43 stevan_ yes the whole first part is all about succ, pred, is_zero, if t1 then t2 else t3...
03:43 luqui and completely sold me on haskell, causing me to really try to learn it (instead of just kinda sorta wanting to)
03:44 * luqui is reading it now
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03:48 dudley Goodnight, everybody.
03:48 stevan_ nite dudley
03:48 dudley sleep &
03:48 stevan_ I should sleep too
03:48 stevan_ night all
03:48 stevan_ luqui: enjoy TAPL :)
03:48 stevan_ &
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03:52 putter good night stevan
03:53 putter so, pilrun now does return/last/next/redo, for some value of "does".
03:53 svnbot r6917 | putter++ | PIL-Run - first cut at return(), last(), next(), redo().
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03:54 putter next step is to hoist code objects out of loops, so they dont get created repeatedly.  the delay is actually visible.
03:55 putter luqui is reading.  anyone else left on the night shift?
03:55 spinclad just caught up with backlog.  (whew!)
03:56 putter :)
04:00 spinclad re. perl5/ (after the release), i'd suggest hoisting metamodel and pil stuff upward, but don't know under what name or whether they belong together.  Subdirs for @backends, which determines some of the hierarchy, but not all...
04:02 putter we certainly need to do something
04:03 * Supaplex eats a cashew
04:04 putter i'm not sure it needs to be after the release either, current usage is so narrow (a couple of people repeatedly doing a few things) that I'm not sure we gain much from "it's been working as-is".
04:04 Supaplex guess what my new plates have on them :)
04:04 putter elephants?
04:05 spinclad nuts.
04:05 Supaplex perl6
04:05 Supaplex :)
04:05 putter one follows the other
04:05 putter cafepress?
04:06 putter My guess is this release will need a lot of testing and repair.
04:07 putter If we can put together a good vision of where the pieces should go, testing and repairing that might be worth the extra pain.
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04:09 spinclad Code-Perl, Perl6-{Container,Value} go into @backend<perl5> (oops, should be %), leaving T2-Perl6 stranded (first MetaModel customer?) maybe
04:10 putter is anything actually using Code-Perl?
04:10 spinclad sort of turning perl5/ inside out
04:11 spinclad sorry, i haven't kept close enough track to know
04:11 putter my fuzzy impression is it is inactive
04:11 putter the rest seems plausible though
04:13 luqui putter: I believe Code-Perl is not being used
04:13 spinclad i think you're right, that Code-Perl has already been cannibalized into MM.
04:13 luqui we were going to use it for Perl::Compiler
04:13 luqui But then PIL-Run took over that job
04:14 * putter has never really come to delight in the name PIL-Run...
04:15 putter ok, so
04:15 putter pugs/backends/perl5/ Perl6-MetaModel PIL-Run ...
04:15 putter unified lib/ or still separate?
04:16 putter does PIL2JS with its heavy use of perl for compilation go in backends/js/ or perl5/?
04:16 putter actually, suggest non-unified lib.
04:17 putter one puzzle is that the various backends which use perl5 to fiddle with PIL, may share common libraries to do so.  they go in... ext/ ?
04:18 putter is everyone happy with PIL-Run as a name?  its currently fairly easy to change, but that window is closing.
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04:20 putter is "backend/" a general enough concept?  if I write a PIL optimizer using a combination of p5 and something declaritive, say a tabling prolog, where does it go?  what if it emits p5 code?
04:21 putter projects/ would cover all that, but perhaps looses too much meaning
04:21 * putter realizes he has been talking to himself for 6 minutes ;)
04:22 spinclad i think one backend per language won't suffice; we'll have reimplementations, competing experiments, etc
04:22 putter agreed
04:24 putter and worth emphasizing somehow - PIL-Run performance will in some respects be _glacial_ for a while.  there seems a real risk of folks going "oh, perl6 is slooow" (silly, but folks did it to lisp)
04:25 putter PIL::Run::Proto0 ;)
04:25 putter permitting PIL::Run::SomethingElse
04:26 spinclad :)
04:28 putter PIL seems unlikely to remain a singular unvariagated thing for long
04:28 putter already isnt (PIL2)
04:28 spinclad right
04:28 luqui is PIL2 going anywhere?
04:30 putter my impression is $work is eating rather more of a's cycles than he originally envisioned.  or the plan may have changed to limited pugs for a while, to make $ for big time block (something went by which left that impression)
04:31 putter there is some stuff in src/PIL/
04:31 spinclad yes, he's banking up for erdosing
04:36 spinclad i just searched the tree for anything named PIL2* and only found PIL2JS.  where'd it go?  i thought i remembered it somewhere...
04:37 spinclad ah, right, src/PIL.hs.  d'oh!
04:38 putter back when ARPA was under less incompetent management, there was the concept floating around of allowing project managers do micro grants.  $40k for a year of autrijus is small change in that context.  no one ever had the tuits to pursue it.  and with current administration, its a lost cause.
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04:40 spinclad heh.  they don't believe in government doing that sort of patronage, they think that job belongs to industry (along with everything)
04:41 putter Perl6::PIL::ProtoRun
04:41 putter err, no
04:42 putter spinclad: yes.  plus a micromanaging director in an organization which really needs to push down responsibility.
04:43 spinclad bitter, me?
04:43 putter ;)
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04:46 putter The concept was for a "wheel greaser".  Eg, someone has the state of subfield X in their brain, but it's never been written down.  Go in and help.  Perhaps that means paying for a scribe.  Or arranging a sabatical.  Or whatever.  Person to help get things unstuck.
04:48 putter I wonder if there is a portable way to constrain how much memory a perl process uses.
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04:48 spinclad a sounds to be a prime candidate.  or maybe subsidize a small team, with some such person at its core
04:49 spinclad ulimit?
04:49 putter its amazing how much is held up for really pointless reasons
04:50 putter ulimit on windows?
04:51 putter but ulimit will save me from having to watch smokes so they dont melt down my machine.  thanks! :)
04:51 spinclad windows, dunno.  ulimit -d on bash (on unix, linux, ?POSIX?)
04:52 spinclad and ulimit -s
04:54 putter ulimit -d 1000000  ;)    not an interface which will make it unchanged to terabyte memories
04:55 spinclad ulimit -d 1000000000
04:55 spinclad ;)
04:57 spinclad (you mean the system call?  new version for 64-bit space)
04:58 spinclad s/version/$0 neeeded/
05:01 putter right
05:01 * putter waits expectantly for a smoke to finish... eventually...
05:02 putter incremental smokes?
05:03 putter each test file gets a smoke data file, so one can be in continuous resmoking.  and as test set grows, it doesnt come to take a day to do a smoke.
05:04 spinclad btw, what state is the parrot target in?  dead for now?  (passing 2/3)  last i heard it was waiting on the new calling convention
05:04 spinclad and none of the metamodel work has targeted it, afaics
05:06 putter yes, unmoving.  we're waiting on cc, and last I heard, leo considered it done and waiting on chip for a go/no-go.
05:06 spinclad right
05:07 putter ho, that will be interesting.  pilrun regex is too dumb to know it doesnt do p6 regexes, so its about to try with p5...
05:08 spinclad continuous testing:  just as long as the runs converge, vs divergence by overlap
05:09 spinclad good luck to it
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05:09 putter it would also be nice to be able to do per-test, an individual ok(), tracking.  so one can ask "what rev did this stop working".
05:11 spinclad dump them in your database!  datamining for the software practicioner!
05:13 putter :)
05:17 putter hmm...  you know, with PIL and a declarative constraint system, I bet it wouldn't be too difficult to do whole-program analysis of p6.  Nothing which could fiddle with the Num classes, mash it down to machine types.  etc
05:19 putter might have to try that...
05:19 spinclad sure.  might begin to resemble some larger haskell compiles...
05:19 putter :)
05:20 putter I was think more, when you want to do a release, you compile it down.
05:22 putter pilrun is currently structured so it could do  -c foo.p6 -o foo.p5
05:23 spinclad anyway, getting tired.  i feel i'm just a kibitzer so far.  i want to dig in someplace specific.  maybe an unlambda target? *<8o)  or i'll look for something that will help with the metamodel work.
05:24 putter digging in good
05:24 * putter admits it's pretty silly to stay up too late waiting on a smoke...
05:25 * spinclad tools up with spade and shovel and a promise for tomorrow
05:25 putter :)
05:25 putter I'm off.
05:25 putter good night &
05:26 spinclad me too.  night putter &
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08:55 new-b hiho
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10:49 xerox Today is http://softwarefreedomday.org/ !
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11:01 castaway hey.. is there a doc on Kwid somewheres?
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11:10 dudley castaway: http://pugs.kwiki.org/?KwidSynopsis
11:11 dudley there used to be a perlkwid.kwid that was the spec in the Pugs tree, but it seems to have disappeared...
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11:18 castaway hmm, odd that.. thanks
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12:01 dudley stevan_: ping
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ | * Changed "scalar(...)" to "item(...)" and "scalar context" to "item context"
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ |   and "Scalar" to "Item" where applicable in examples/, t/, ext/, docs/, src/,
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ |   and perl5/, based on
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ |   http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/23078.
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/hashes/slice.t: Added link to relevant p6l post and =for
12:51 svnbot r6918 | iblech++ |   unspecced'ed another test.
12:52 gaal hey folks, are you getting the prelude compiled in on your regular builds now?
12:54 * dudley hasn't built pugs in a long, long time
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13:05 gaal hmm. issuing the build_pugs.pl command manually seems to work, but from a bare 'make' it doesn't.  weird.
13:05 gaal (now just to hope ghc doesn't blow up again)-:
13:05 dudley it looks like the default 'make' is giving me the precompiled prelude here
13:12 gaal thanks for the input. i've managed to build a pugs and am running a smoke test now; after it finishes i'll pull a fresh tree and try again. maybe having many aborted builds confuses build_pugs.
13:16 dudley Yeah, this is on a clean tree
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13:34 stevan_ dudley: pong
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13:37 gaal brentdax, ping
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13:43 dudley stevan_: I think the java/scala stuff really only works calling java code from scala
13:43 dudley not the other way around
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13:44 dudley It seems that scala classes appear to java as abstract
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13:44 svnbot r6919 | putter++ | PIL-Run - hopefully reduce testing fragility
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13:56 svnbot r6920 | gaal++ | Log::Selective: skip looping tests
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14:46 putter hi all
14:46 putter fglock: ping?
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14:52 rafl_ All requirements for pugs to go into Debian are satisfied now (exept those modules needed for smoking, but that doesn't hurt). What do you think which version should go in? 6.2.9 or a current svn snapshot?
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14:55 putter a release version.  6.2.9 if that's the most recent.  things are a bit crufty.  pugs itself is down to 96%.
14:56 rafl_ OK, /me is working on 6.2.9 then.
14:57 putter there is a big cleanup and testing push before each release, which gets all the tests passing, etc.
14:59 rafl_ The last time I saw that it looked to me that this is mostly done by TODOifying failing tests.
15:00 stevan_ dudley: re: scala, well maybe it is not ready yet
15:00 stevan_ hey putter :_
15:01 putter there's definitely some of that.  more when autrijus is pressed for time, or a "bugfixing session" dynamic doesnt happen.
15:01 putter hi stevan
15:05 dudley stevan_: Or maybe some sucker will fill in the missing parts of SUnit...
15:05 stevan_ dudley: always a possibility :)
15:05 dudley :)
15:11 putter fglock: it looks like r6896 broke  @a=(3,4)
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15:23 putter and p6_to_a is broken - Array ->unboxed is now returning a...
15:23 putter p5ugs> :5 $y = Array->new('$.unboxed' => [34])
15:23 putter Array=HASH(0x10722a0)
15:23 putter p5ugs> :5 $y->unboxed
15:23 putter Perl6::Container::Array=HASH(0x14aeab0)
15:28 putter Hmm... looks like Array ->unboxed may never have been working.
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16:29 * putter wonders why make test is saying "hate software so much".  not that he disagrees at the moment, but one doesn't often see the sentiment expressed by one's software.
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16:40 svnbot r6921 | putter++ | PIL-Run - \@INC now exists, but doesn't work (problem in Array?).  The real Test.pm now compiles, and works on tests individually, but not under make test.
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16:49 rafl_ pugs is in the Debian NEW queue (http://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html) again. This time it should also be accepted.
16:49 putter rafl_++ :)
16:50 rafl_ btw, the only difference from the packaging in SVN is that it doesn't send the smoke results to smokeserv (libtest-tap-*-perl aren't in, yet).
16:51 putter Does that mean debian folk will simply be able to aptget pugs, without struggling with a ghc install?!?
16:51 rafl_ putter: Of course. But is apt-get install ghc6 really that hard? :-)
16:52 putter :)
16:53 * putter thinks of all the work it was to get a version of ghc which worked on x86_64... the contrast of "apt-get pugs" is a bit boggling.
16:54 putter "civilization advances by increasing the number of things you don't have to worry about"
16:55 rafl_ putter: Why doesn't ghc6 6.4-4.1 work for you?
16:55 rafl_ putter: I can't find a bug for this in the bts. Maybe you should report one.
16:57 putter Is 6.4.1 finally out?  For a while I had to follow cvs head, playing the "does it even compile today?  if yes, does it seem more or less broken than the snapshot I'm currently using" game.
16:57 putter Eventually I wasnt noticing problems, so I stopped playing.
16:58 rafl_ No, 6.4-4.1 is NMU (non maintainer upload) 1 for Debian version 4 of ghc6 6.4.
16:58 rafl_ That's the first version that uses the new C++ API.
16:59 putter ah.  yes, 6.4 has difficulties on x86_64.  6.4.1 is ironing them out.
17:00 rafl_ Well, making other Debian users as well as the maintainer aware of that would be a good thing, though.
17:01 putter (I note that's ghc's official 6.4 release.  not using debian, can't comment on 6.4-4.1.)
17:02 putter Everything I've found is in the bug tracker, or communicated directly to the pursuing developer.  What happens from there...
17:05 spinclad excellent!  rafl_++++
17:06 spinclad (pugs, not ghc6, of course)
17:06 putter :)
17:06 rafl_ is now known as rafl
17:06 spinclad wait, does karma carry over?
17:07 spinclad karma rafl_
17:07 spinclad whobot knows karma?
17:07 rafl Doesn't matter. There seems to be no karma at all ATM. :-)
17:07 rafl perlbot, AFAIK.
17:07 perlbot As Far As I Know
17:08 spinclad perlbot, why won't you talk to Me?
17:10 rafl But I think shouldn't be carried over when changing nicks. . o O ( /nick autrijus; /nick iblech; /nick putter; /nick fglock; /nick gaal; ... $karma = Inf)
17:11 spinclad either that or not merge.
17:12 spinclad but then .oO ( /nick autrijus; $karma = 0 ) so better no carryover
17:12 putter stevan
17:13 rafl ACK.
17:13 putter luqui
17:13 * putter gives up on that game
17:15 DiGiT79_ has joined #perl6
17:15 DiGiT79_ hi
17:16 spinclad hi. which DiGiT is 79?
17:16 DiGiT79_ i have a problem wirh the NET::SSH::PERL module .... for days now! maybe someone in here is familiar with that module ?!
17:16 DiGiT79_ :p
17:16 rafl Grr. 7 Minutes after I uploaded pugs without smoking support libtest-tap-model-perl was accepted. :-/
17:17 spinclad :(
17:17 rafl DiGiT79_: This channel is about Perl6 and pugs development. Maybe you want to join #perl.
17:18 DiGiT79_ rafl, sorry for that! thnx :)
17:19 rafl spinclad: That's not that bad actually. Only the smoke results of the Debian buildds wont be sent to smokeserv.
17:20 rafl Yay, pizza for me :-)
17:20 spinclad i'd guess 6.2.10-1 should have it anyway
17:20 rafl spinclad: Yes, it will.
17:24 rafl libtest-tap-htmlmatrix-perl_0.04-1_i386.changes is also accepted now.
17:25 SamB has joined #perl6
17:28 DiGiT79_ has left "Verlassend"
17:32 * rafl prepares a new upload.
17:33 Shadownw has joined #perl6
17:33 Shadownw has left
17:34 putter err, note that make smoke currently non-terminates.
17:34 putter fyi
17:35 putter the MIME-Base64 is apparently unresolved.  at least on my machine.
17:35 putter s/is/issue is/
17:35 rafl For 6.2.9 it works fine for me.
17:36 putter we may have disabled that test for the release?  regardless, yes, the actual release should be fine.
17:47 webfiend has joined #perl6
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17:53 * putter plays with svn log...
17:53 putter some obvious things.  "May was fun"
17:56 justatheory has quit IRC ()
17:57 alinbsp has joined #perl6
17:58 putter some less so - even though autrijus is less than half the commits, starting surprisingly early in the project, the shape of total and autrijus commits is quite similar, until the summer tapering off, where total commits leveled off even though autrijus went away (commit count wise).
17:59 integral that sounds like the point when the other backends (JS, P5) started to appear; they seem to have lots of developers compared to the haskell
17:59 putter which, in retrospect, is consistent with my impression that autrijus is a key pacing factor.
18:00 putter hmm... looking...
18:06 putter basically, with 15 active commiters and 200 commits per week as a baseline, the "golden time";) was most of May, with twice that.  there is a spike in commiters and commits around the time the backends showed up a month later (to ~30 something and ~300), but it was only a week or two.
18:07 * putter tries to think of an easy way to post the curves...
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18:12 saorge has quit IRC (Success)
18:19 svnbot r6922 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
18:19 svnbot r6922 | stevan++ | * first steps towards supporting unbound methods, which are needed for Roles
18:19 svnbot r6922 | stevan++ |   - commiting this before I make too much of a mess :)
18:20 putter :)
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18:40 roo I think I know why I've been having all those GHC errors.
18:41 roo My computer crashed and won't start now. Looks like the CPU or RAM died :-(
18:41 new-b has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:41 roo is now known as gaal
18:42 gaal Oh well, at least this is an opportunity to pick up irssi.
18:42 evalbot_6922 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:42 evalbot_6923 has joined #perl6
18:42 putter :(
18:43 gaal Remarkably, the computer is still under warranty! I thought they timed those things to happen a month after it expires!
18:43 svnbot r6923 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
18:43 svnbot r6923 | stevan++ | * methods are not bound to the class until they are
18:43 svnbot r6923 | stevan++ |   added to that class
18:43 svnbot r6923 | stevan++ |     - fixed some tests to account for this, still some cleanup to do
18:50 putter :)
18:51 GeJ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
18:52 putter good luck gaal
18:52 putter later &
18:52 putter has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:52 gaal thanks - bye!
18:53 gaal seen autrijus
18:56 luqui has joined #perl6
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18:58 evalbot_6924 has joined #perl6
19:01 svnbot r6924 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
19:01 svnbot r6924 | stevan++ | * cleaned all code and sub prototypes so now unbound methods are the
19:01 svnbot r6924 | stevan++ |   "way things are done", all tests pass, and we are now ready to add
19:01 svnbot r6924 | stevan++ |   Roles into the metamodel
19:14 castaway_ has joined #perl6
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19:18 spinclad ooo Roles :)
19:23 dduncan has joined #perl6
19:26 luqui lwall to sixperl: Good tree matching syntax ... [is] really better done with an extension to signatures
19:26 luqui hooray!
19:27 luqui he proposes:  sub foo (Plus $plus (Lit ($left), Lit ($right))) {...}
19:28 evalbot_6924 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:28 wolverian luqui, sixperl?
19:28 evalbot_6925 has joined #perl6
19:28 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:28 luqui The um... lack of a secret cabal communication channel
19:29 wolverian just as long as it's not perlsex..
19:29 luqui :-)
19:30 Aankhen`` Ohh, ^W is the new ^H?
19:30 luqui ?
19:31 Aankhen`` goa^W^W^Wsomething as opposed to goa^H^H^Hsomething.
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ | * Added Makefile, blib, etc. to ext/Log-Selective's svn:ignore.
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: lazy {...}!
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |   * Prelude::JS::Code: Added &lazy. Note that in PIL2JS, all lazy "values" are
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |     actually autodereffing references. Can't say whether this is against the
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |     spec as no spec exists ;)
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |   * libjs/PIL2JS.js: Fixed autodereffing handling in some places --
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |     &ref autodereffed more than one time and &prefix:<~> and &prefix:<+>
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ |     did not autoderef in some cases.
19:31 svnbot r6925 | iblech++ | * t/var/lazy.t: Added some more tests. PIL2JS passes 15/15 :)
19:31 luqui ^W generally means "kill a word"
19:31 Aankhen`` Ah, I see.
19:31 luqui whereas ^H means "kill a letter"
19:31 Aankhen`` Thanks for the explanation. :-)
19:33 luqui ?eval my $x = lazy { "hi" };  say "hi"
19:33 evalbot_6925 hi bool::true
19:33 luqui ?eval my $x = lazy { "hi" };  say $x
19:33 castaway has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:33 evalbot_6925 hi bool::true
19:33 luqui ?eval my $x = lazy { say "evaluating!"; "hi" };  say "boo!"; say $x
19:33 evalbot_6925 boo! evaluating! evaluating! evaluating! hi bool::true
19:33 luqui uh..
19:33 luqui three times?
19:33 Aankhen`` ?eval my $x = lazy { say "evaluating!"; "hi" };  say "boo!";
19:33 evalbot_6925 boo! bool::true
19:33 Aankhen`` ?eval my $x = lazy { say "evaluating!"; "hi" };  say $x;
19:33 evalbot_6925 evaluating! evaluating! evaluating! hi bool::true
19:34 Aankhen`` ?eval my $i = 0; my $x = lazy { $i++; "hi" }; say $i; say $x; say $i;
19:34 evalbot_6925 0 hi 3 bool::true
19:35 Aankhen`` Freaky.
19:35 luqui well, you're not supposed to put side-effects inside lazy { }
19:35 luqui but still...
19:35 Aankhen`` Indeed.
19:35 wolverian luqui, hm, what does that tree matching syntax mean exactly?
19:36 luqui It's a Plus node with two Lit subnodes
19:36 luqui and you put the Plus node as a whole into $plus, and the contents of the Lit nodes in $left and $right
19:36 Aankhen`` ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
19:36 evalbot_6925 \'Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.9, August 3, 2005 (r6925)'
19:36 wolverian ohh.
19:37 wolverian luqui, are the parens in 'Lit ($left)' necessary?
19:37 luqui yeah, otherwise $left gets the Lit node, as opposed to its contents
19:38 * luqui still isn't sure how you specify something like "Plus"
19:38 luqui but we know how to match it at least :-/
19:38 gaal has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:40 justatheory has joined #perl6
19:50 wolverian luqui, well, get to work on the specification side then!
19:50 * wolverian cracks the whip
19:50 * luqui ows
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19:54 svnbot r6926 | iblech++ | * t/var/autoderef.t: Refs to subrefs should not autoderef.
19:54 svnbot r6926 | iblech++ | * pugs::run: Added short paragraph about the features of our backends.
19:54 svnbot r6926 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: README: Added section about the implementation of laziness.
20:01 spinclad ?eval my $x = lazy { say "howdy!"; "hi" }; say $x
20:01 evalbot_6926 howdy! howdy! howdy! hi bool::true
20:01 xerox has left "Channel buffer killed"
20:01 spinclad it's certainly enthusiastic.
20:02 spinclad ?eval my $x = lazy { say "howdy!"; "hi" }; $x
20:02 evalbot_6926 howdy! \\'hi'
20:02 spinclad interesting difference
20:03 spinclad ?eval my $x = lazy { say "howdy!"; "hi" }; say $x; say $x
20:03 evalbot_6926 howdy! howdy! howdy! hi howdy! howdy! howdy! hi bool::true
20:04 spinclad so it's not converting to cache on autoderef...
20:09 GeJ_ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
20:09 spinclad this way is simple and computationally equivalent to anything better (and lazier!)
20:09 spinclad s/anything better \(and lazier!\)/(and lazier than!) anything smarter
20:09 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
20:10 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:10 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("<@Lor20_RJ> indian boys dont need to know everything <@Lor20_RJ> tehre are too many- if they had that knowledge they might go)
20:11 spinclad g'night aankhen``
20:13 spinclad .oO ( so what three times does say $x evaluate $x? )
20:13 spinclad ?eval my $x = lazy { say "howdy!"; "hi" }; $x.perl
20:13 evalbot_6926 howdy! howdy! howdy! '\\\\\'hi\''
20:16 spinclad sorry, this way is lazy _about_ caching, but caching should be lazier computationally.  (eval at most once)
20:17 acme has quit IRC (Nick collision from services.)
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20:26 spinclad s/should/would/
20:27 spinclad i think that's as close as i'll get to saying this right today.
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20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/symbol_table.t: =begin obsolete'd the whole test because things
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ |   were changed recently (see thread "Packages, Modules and Classes" on p6l
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ |   started by Stevan: http://www.nntp.perl.org/grou​p/perl.perl6.language/23019).
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ | * t/unspecced/eval_yaml.t: skip under PIL2JS.
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ | * t/operators/reduce-metaop.t: Some more tests and minor reorganization.
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Operators: Basic [...] reduce metaoperator! But:
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ |   * No autogenerated metaops for user-defined operators yet.
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ |   * No attention paid to the associativity of the operators yet.
20:39 svnbot r6927 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: libjs/PIL2JS.js: $*PUGS_HAS_JSPLUGINS := 0;
20:40 evalbot_6927 has joined #perl6
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21:04 cybercobra could anyone recommend a book on perl6 for the non-perl programer?
21:05 luqui learning perl?
21:05 luqui er
21:05 luqui perl6
21:05 luqui uh
21:05 luqui no... not really
21:06 luqui I expect the camel 4 when it comes out will probably not be a diff but more of a complete spec
21:06 luqui or a complete learning spec at least
21:06 cybercobra well so far I've found http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perl6es/ and http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bookSearc​h/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&amp;isbn=1590593952
21:08 luqui yeah, those both look like they require a perl 5 knowledge
21:08 luqui what other languages are you familiar with?
21:09 cybercobra C, python, Java
21:09 cybercobra just read a book on C#
21:09 luqui learning perl shouldn't be that hard for you then
21:09 luqui but learning perl 6 is always a challenge
21:10 luqui since it's always changing, and the docs are about specific sublanguages and idioms rather than the language as a whole
21:10 luqui so the best way to do it, I think, is to familarize yourself with some amount of perl 5 and then play with pugs
21:10 luqui spending time on this channel will also help
21:10 luqui since a lot of us have perl 6 in our head
21:10 luqui s
21:13 cybercobra all right then, I think I'll go with 'Perl 6 Now' then. thanks
21:14 luqui yeah, I was a major help, wasn't I :-/
21:14 dudley has joined #perl6
21:15 cybercobra you tried and were honest. that's all I can ask for until perl6 is finalized
21:19 larsen has joined #perl6
21:29 spinclad cybercobra: not a book, but i wouldn't forget our design docs: Apocalypses, Exegeses, and Synopses (AES)
21:30 cybercobra spinclad: yeah, I looked over the regex an operator apocalypses a few weeks ago
21:30 cybercobra *and
21:30 fglock_ has joined #perl6
21:31 fglock_ putter: pong
21:31 spinclad not complete (even for what's been specified to date -- for that you'd best follow the perl6.language mailing list
21:33 spinclad but not bad introductions to go along with whatever books
21:34 spinclad they do presume perl5 though, in describe the differences therefrom.
21:35 spinclad /describing/
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22:16 elmrfudd has joined #perl6
22:19 svnbot r6928 | fglock++ | * perl5/Match.pm - fixed tabs
22:20 evalbot_6927 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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22:30 autrijus has joined #perl6
22:30 autrijus greetings
22:33 fglock_ hi
22:33 autrijus hi. there'll be no journal today I'm afraid -- I just low-level formatted autrijus.org's -- including all raid disks -- by accident
22:33 autrijus coupled with the recent laptop hd crash, that means, well, all the data I'm going to have will be public data.
22:34 fglock_ I just had a blackout here - but no problems with the computer :)
22:35 autrijus congrats :)
22:35 fglock_ open source is a great backup medium
22:35 evalbot_6928 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:36 evalbot_6929 has joined #perl6
22:37 autrijus it is, although I'm going to miss my mail archive and private works.
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ | * EOL at EOF.
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ | * t/data_types/lazy_lists.t: skip_rest instead of die when not running under PIL-Run.
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ | * t/junction/misc_junctions.t: Fixed test and...
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ | * New t/syntax/parsing_postfix_if_and_is.t: ...added new test testing that the
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ |   syntax error misc_junctions.t contained actually causes Pugs to parsefail ("3
22:37 svnbot r6929 | iblech++ |   if 4\nis 50" (note: no ";" before the "\n") does *not* parsefail currently!).
22:38 fglock_ ouch - no cdroms?
22:39 autrijus ope.
22:39 autrijus I have laptop and server back up each other, each one with redundant disks
22:39 autrijus but somehow this week I nuked every single one of them
22:41 dudley It's a great week for hardware failures.
22:42 autrijus verily.
22:42 dudley I lost my hard drive on my laptop and gaal blew up a cpu or something like that
22:42 fglock_ autrijus: are lazy array slices actually specified? they are pretty difficult to implement right
22:42 autrijus fglock_: no, they are not specified in detail
22:42 autrijus but I'm sure @Larry on p6l will be happy to work out the rough ends when brought up
22:44 fglock_ things like: (@a[1..100],@b[1..50])=(@a[1..50],@b[1..100]) - weird intersections of lazy lists
22:44 luqui woah
22:45 luqui you want that to happen without evaluating @a[25], I imagine
22:46 fglock_ yes
22:46 luqui are you using the generator approach?
22:46 fglock_ you can put a lot of extra zeroes there :)
22:47 fglock_ I'm using List.pm - it supports a set of "queries" on the list
22:48 fglock_ List->new() takes a bunch of closures, which are the actual "generator"
22:48 luqui it seems like to do your example, lazy lists need to be able to split themselves
22:49 luqui it would probably be helpful to specify the ListGenerator role
22:49 luqui i.e. all the things an object needs to do in order to be part of a lazy list
22:51 fglock_ no problem, I think. Right now it is using a class, but it can be a Role
22:51 luqui yeah, it feels more interfacey than derivey to me
22:52 luqui among the things I can think of
22:52 luqui $gen.index($idx)    # get $idx elements from the beginning, generating as much as necessary
22:53 luqui ($left, $right) = $gen.split($idx)     # get two generators, one for 0..^$idx, and one for $idx...
22:54 luqui maybe this is a p6l issue, so we can really determine the best minimal interface
22:54 fglock_ yep. I call this shift_n($n), and there is a pop_n($n) too
22:54 luqui okay
22:54 luqui or maybe a p6c issue :-)
22:54 fglock_ Array.splice is defined in terms of shift_n and pop_n calls
22:54 luqui are generators values or references?
22:55 fglock_ where $n can be Inf
22:55 fglock_ generator is an instance of List
22:55 luqui so it's a reference.
22:55 luqui that is, you can change it
22:56 fglock_ yes, you can "take" from it
22:56 luqui okay
22:56 * luqui wonders what the interface would look like as a value type
22:56 luqui it may end up making things a lot easier, or it may end up making things a lot harder
22:57 luqui but my experience with laziness says that things get easier when you make them constant
22:57 luqui not that I have all that much experience
22:57 fglock_ PIL-Run arrays are using this
22:58 luqui uh huh...
22:58 luqui and?
22:58 luqui well, let me think about it
22:58 luqui at the moment, my hunch is that generators should not be lists
22:58 luqui but lists should be aggregated generators
22:58 luqui and generators should just be a nice interface for extracting and splitting lazy sequences
22:59 fglock_ Array is a cached list aggregate, more or less
22:59 luqui nice for the implementor of List, that is
22:59 * luqui will look over List.pm
23:00 luqui it's really hard pretending you know the right design when you haven't even seen how the current one works yet :-p
23:01 fglock_ the remaining problem is how you clone a list - because you need to clone the closures
23:02 luqui "clone the closures"
23:02 luqui the closures are not pure?
23:02 fglock_ pure?
23:02 luqui you allow the generating closures to mutate stuff?
23:05 fglock_ like: @a=@b; say @a.shift; say @b.shift; - if there is a generator involved, you need to be able to get to the same element twice
23:05 luqui of course
23:05 luqui hmm...
23:06 fglock_ I've written a module that solves the problem, but it was not elegant - involved buffering, too much extra work
23:07 * luqui is just thinking about @b = =<> earlier on
23:07 fglock_ cloning the generator could fix that, if it was possible.
23:07 fglock_ yup - working with files would involve buffering
23:07 luqui it's like the generator needs to know what it's already generated
23:08 luqui so a pure head/tail scheme won't work here
23:08 luqui I think
23:08 luqui well, gtg
23:08 luqui &
23:09 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:17 fglock_ electricity is gone again - it's nice that the computer has batteries :)
23:20 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:26 * fglock_ learns to write without seeing the keyboard
23:38 vkon has joined #perl6
23:44 vkon after I looked into :ignorecase in t/rules/tules.t, it appears that parrot has incomplete abilities on case-insensitive comparision operators, as described in appropriate files.
23:46 vkon moreover, matching a character to a character class is done "index char,string"; I think it will be better to have it searched within a hash...
23:48 vkon those two mentioned items, and yet a way to call parrot from within pugs, make it clear why rules are that slow, and why :ignorecase isn't done yet...
23:50 vkon all in all, implementing rules (temporarily) in Haskell could be much more effective... or even with matching using PCRE?
23:51 elmrfudd has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:51 svnbot r6930 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - @INC is tied to P5 @INC
23:51 evalbot_6929 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:51 luqui vkon, pcre?
23:52 luqui you can't do that with perl 6 rules
23:52 evalbot_6930 has joined #perl6
23:52 luqui I think pcre is in fact called when you do :p5
23:55 vkon luqui: yes, indeed... but parrot's engine is so incomplete (and it is documented as temporary and incomplete) so if matching itself will be done elsewhere, it could be easier. But I probably misunderstand the point.
23:55 luqui well, the idea is to eventually run everything on parrot
23:56 luqui in which case it won't be inconvenient
23:56 luqui however, I have planned to port PGE to perl 6 one of these days
23:56 luqui so at least we'll have a working if not fast rules engine everywhere we run
23:58 vkon luqui: I respect parrot embedding, and compiling to PIR is good... but why parrot still lacks :ignorecase?

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