Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:10 dudley_ mmm, I do like the union type over super/subclasses here.
00:11 dudley_ but I have to go quickly, so I'll have to finish later...
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00:43 svnbot r6995 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
00:43 svnbot r6995 | stevan++ | * fixed class attribute handling in Perl6::MetaModel
00:43 svnbot r6995 | stevan++ | * added a test from 1.0 which uses class attributes
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04:37 panicst8 how long has perl6 been around there are guys in th js room telling me it hasn't been around for 2 years and i say it has
04:38 luqui depends on how you define "around"
04:38 luqui it's been in design for more than three years
04:38 luqui but the implementation, pugs, only started this february
04:38 panicst8 around as in builds of it i know my brother cmilfo who hangs out in here has been monkeying around with it  if not actually using it plus perl 6 essentials was put out by oreilly in 2003
04:39 panicst8 so could he have been using it for 2
04:39 luqui oh, parrot!
04:39 Khisanth heh large part of the book is probably no longer valid
04:39 luqui and P6C in parrot (which was a miserable failure)
04:39 panicst8 but it has been around and would a true perl dork ;) my brother hehehe  been playing it it if he eats breaths nad shits perl which he does
04:40 panicst8 i do to but not to his extent.
04:40 luqui okay, well, again, depends on how you define "around"
04:41 luqui the *current implementation* has not been around for two years. how about that?
04:42 panicst8 ;) done i just  hate being told i am wrong. hehe even when i most probably am ;)
04:46 Supaplex wrong!
04:46 buu Seconded.
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04:52 panicst8 buu at no time did i say current implimentation i said he has been using/working with it for 2 years and tomorrow during the day pop in and chat with him he hangs out in here for some reasaon cmilfo i beleive.
04:52 panicst8 oh  he is in the room now but most probably asleep
04:52 Supaplex not if you keep this racket up
04:54 luqui Khisanth, do you read p6l?
04:55 panicst8 ;)
04:55 Khisanth nope, I figure I'll wait till p6 is more or less spec out before doing any serious reading on it
04:55 luqui ahh.  well, I proposed that @a >>+ 3 be equivalent to fmap (+3) @a...
04:55 luqui if that makes sense (paskell :-)
04:56 Khisanth fmap?
04:56 luqui so folks can implement their own hyper functors
04:56 luqui uh, from Haskell
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04:57 luqui Khisanth, you are from haskell background aren't you?
04:59 * Khisanth nods
05:00 luqui so I basically just proposed that hypers are a short form for fmap.  "@a >>+ 3" is [email@hidden.address] $x { $x + 3 })"
05:00 luqui aanyway, so, my work with >><< is done
05:01 luqui my next goal is to get the rest of the design team to accept it so I can turn junctions into a functor and begone with those horrible things that don't obey any laws
05:02 Khisanth hrm how is fmap different from map?
05:02 Supaplex the f part
05:02 Khisanth :)
05:03 luqui map works on lists, fmap works on all Functors (so for [a], fmap = map).   But trees are also functors, and also all monads
05:03 Supaplex o.O
05:03 luqui but that's haskell's way of looking at it.  In Perl, I'll say that lists, hashes, and junctions are all functors
05:04 luqui so you'll say if (1|2|3) >>== 3 {...}
05:05 Khisanth ...
05:06 Khisanth as if there weren't enough operators already :)
05:06 luqui hyper operators already exist
05:06 luqui except in the current state of perl, they only work on lists
05:06 luqui I'm just trying to get them to work on junctions (and other stuff) too
05:07 luqui because, as it currently stands, treating junctions as normal values allows you to prove absurdities (like every object is equal to every other object)
05:08 luqui so junctions must not be normal values (we knew that), but I want them to be.  This is just a way to keep the functionality and allow junctions to be normal.
05:08 luqui anyway, I should really get to my homework
05:08 luqui ?eval if 1|2|3 == 2 { say "2 is equal to 1 or 2 or 3" }
05:08 evalbot_6995 2 is equal to 1 or 2 or 3 bool::true
05:08 * luqui &
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07:09 nothingmuch morning
07:10 NSK hi
07:15 smith100 suc
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07:32 dduncan very early morning
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08:08 gaal why are pragma and module load declarations bundled together in the syntax, anyway?
08:09 wolverian can where { } blocks have side effects?
08:09 gaal when i say "use strict", i indeed want to load module strict if it wasn't loaded yet, but what i really mean is something like
08:09 gaal pragma strict on
08:09 gaal where "on" is some default activation
08:09 gaal wolverian: yes
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08:10 nothingmuch well, i guess you could say
08:10 gaal wolverian: you can put whatever you like in them. and you don't HAVE to have any where blocks in a given; you can do given $foo { bare_code(); when $x { smth() } more_bare_code() }
08:11 nothingmuch %*PRAGMAS<strict>.enable or something
08:11 nothingmuch strict::import is probably just that
08:11 nothingmuch wait, thats %?PRAGMAS since it's lexical
08:11 gaal so re: pragmas: i don't like how configuration of modules in general is conflated with importation, and i guess pragmas are a special case
08:12 wolverian gaal, I mean where { } as in 'subtype Foo of Bar where { ... }' etc
08:12 gaal ahh, THAT where :) dunno, sorry
08:12 wolverian I'm not aware of any other where :)
08:12 gaal oh right, i was thinking of when {}.
08:12 wolverian ah, right.
08:12 nothingmuch gaal: did you see the compilation mish mash?
08:12 nothingmuch it was lots of fun
08:12 nothingmuch wolverian: yes they can
08:13 nothingmuch wolverian: there's no real way to limit them
08:13 gaal re: pragmas again - you can't say %?PRAGMA = x because the assignment has to happen at compile time
08:13 wolverian nothingmuch, I thought pugs can do that?
08:13 nothingmuch it's probably not a good pragma
08:13 gaal so it should get a keyword of its own, i think
08:13 nothingmuch ugh
08:13 * nothingmuch confused himself
08:13 gaal nothingmuch, yes; and it made my head hurt
08:13 nothingmuch it's probably a good practice to make side-effectful where clauses
08:13 gaal as you no doubt intended
08:13 nothingmuch but there's no where to tell which side effects are validddd
08:14 wolverian hm.
08:14 nothingmuch actually i tried to make complex things slightly simpler
08:14 nothingmuch i reduced my headache at least ;-)
08:14 gaal heh
08:14 wolverian I thought where clauses are strictly for making stricter types, so it'd make sense for perl to be able to run them as many times as it likes
08:14 wolverian (without, uh, weird side effects..)
08:15 nothingmuch wolverian: in my mmd proposal I proposed that where clauses are executed in order of declaration, after all other constraints on the candidate list have been verified, and the first candidate that passes all the where clauses is taken
08:15 gaal nothingmuch: anyway, it deserves more attention than i could afford, so i haven't really attempted to grok it yet.
08:15 nothingmuch gaal: basically &infix:<+> is not a builtin
08:15 nothingmuch it's a foreign function
08:15 gaal i know, i read that part.
08:16 nothingmuch ah, so not much more to say
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08:43 integral nothingmuch++
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08:52 nothingmuch integral: huh?
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10:13 nothingmuch dum dee dum
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15:30 dudley_ stevan: Some sucker started working on Scala's unit testing, so maybe the Scala mm is back on :-)
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15:50 eric256 hello
15:54 dudley_ hello
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16:06 wolverian where is everyone? :(
16:07 * rafl is over here
16:07 * stevan is hiding behind the type checker
16:10 stevan dudley_: re: Scala MM -> cool,.. Scala has a lot of potential I think
16:11 dudley_ I agree.
16:11 dudley_ It just needs a little help becoming more practical
16:14 stevan yup
16:16 dudley_ but it'll have to wait a little while so I can catch up on $work--
16:19 stevan dudley_: I need to finish the Role stuff anyway
16:20 stevan and I have a small $work project coming up,.. but it shouldnt interfere too much ;)
16:20 dudley_ Heh, famous last words...
16:20 stevan nah, I am pretty sure this will be painless
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18:36 * nothingmuch is bored
18:37 nothingmuch autrijus: how's work treating you?
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18:39 luqui wtf! why is gentoo's scala so screwed?
18:40 nothingmuch hiya luqui
18:40 dudley_ luqui: How do you mean?
18:43 dudley_ Gentoo's got an old version
18:43 luqui it points me to a wrapper script that is empty!
18:44 luqui it's okay, I installed manually
18:47 nothingmuch grunt
18:48 nothingmuch ddd is  not doing anything with perl
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19:18 masak stevan++, iblech++, fglock++, rafl++ # for docs/journal/2005-09-12.kwid, thx
19:23 * rafl still wonders if it will be journaled some day..
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19:44 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
19:44 Aankhen`` G'night.
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19:44 Limbic_Region anyone about?
19:44 fglock hi
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19:45 Limbic_Region I was wondering if anyone/everyone had received an email from an apparent editor interested in finding someone to write a Perl book
19:45 Limbic_Region I don't get very much spam at all at that particular address so I was half thinking it was legit
19:46 Limbic_Region I find it incredibly odd that it would come while I have a proposal into a different publisher
19:47 Limbic_Region ok - so either no one is listening or no one cares or no one has received such an email
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19:48 fglock I was checking my spam filter for something like that - no, no mail
19:48 Limbic_Region actually - it came with a phone number - I am calling it now
19:50 Limbic_Region wow - it was legit
19:51 fglock are you going to write two books?
19:52 Limbic_Region I told them that unless the first book is turned down (no contract at this point just in the feeling it out process) or the topic was very different I was interested
19:52 Limbic_Region s/was/wasn't/
19:53 Limbic_Region writing a book is HARD work btw
19:53 Limbic_Region All I have done is put together a detailed outline and put my research notes in related piles and it has consumed far more time then I would like to admit
19:53 fglock and little money - but it is nice work
19:54 Limbic_Region well - I am not interested in the money
19:55 Limbic_Region if I were - I wouldn't work on OS projects or devote my timing helping people at the Monastery and IRC
19:56 Limbic_Region so what's new in the world of Pugs?
19:56 * Limbic_Region has been out of the loop for aforementioned reasons
19:57 fglock the perl5 backend is working better than expected
19:58 Limbic_Region it seems from my limited exposure that focus has been on backends and not expanding the p6 feature set - sound accurate?
19:58 nothingmuch sort of
19:58 fglock yes
19:58 nothingmuch autrijus is slightly swamped recently
19:59 Limbic_Region I have seen his HW problems
19:59 Limbic_Region very sorry to hear that some of the stuff lost has no up to date backups
19:59 Limbic_Region that happened to me in the great HD crash of '03
20:01 fglock re feature set - putter is working on rules, and stevan is working on the object model
20:01 ods15 hya nothingmuch !
20:03 fglock I'm working in Infinite/lazy lists
20:03 Limbic_Region fglock - do you understand how the object model fits into p6 objects?
20:03 Limbic_Region or does it not currently
20:04 fglock the javascript and perl5 backends already use the metamodel
20:04 fglock basically, it means that class is an object
20:05 nothingmuch hi ods15
20:05 Limbic_Region hmmm - I guess I am not asking my question very effectively
20:06 Limbic_Region and my brain is dead so I won't bother trying
20:07 fglock no, maybe I didn't understand
20:08 Limbic_Region my understanding was this (which could very well be wrong)
20:09 Limbic_Region before the metamodel, pugs had some of the OO that was outlined in AES12
20:09 Limbic_Region it wasn't quite right and it wasn't quite complete but it was a start
20:09 * nothingmuch wishes someone would comment on his threads
20:10 Limbic_Region then the metamodel came along whose original goal was to completely define the OO behavior in p5
20:11 Limbic_Region which was to flesh things out and figure out what was really going on
20:11 nothingmuch the goal was to completely define stuff period
20:11 nothingmuch perl 5 was just the most accessible platform
20:11 Limbic_Region at which point it would be incorporated into Pugs replacing the existing OO
20:12 Limbic_Region but as far as I know, that last step has been derailed to be incorporated into backends
20:12 Limbic_Region not the Pugs core
20:12 Limbic_Region so my question was about how much, if any, was the pugs core using the metamodel
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20:13 fglock the "Haskell backend" should incorporate the matamodel
20:13 Limbic_Region nothingmuch - my understanding and your statements don't disagree though I may have not said them as succinctly
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20:14 Limbic_Region exactly fglock
20:14 fglock there is a lack of people hacking Haskell these days
20:15 Limbic_Region the "Haskell backend" is currently using a different model for its OO then the other supported backends
20:15 Limbic_Region and my question was WRT to that backend - which I consider base/core functionality
20:18 fglock the Haskell backend is a bit stalled. most of the developments have been in small fixes to PIL
20:19 Limbic_Region ok - my intermittent exposure hasn't lead me astray
20:20 GeJ fglock: the plan was for stevan to finish the MM so autrijus was implementing it, wasn't it?
20:21 fglock yes, but autrijus has had little available time
20:21 GeJ yes, I read that.
20:22 GeJ I wish sometimes The Man would have a clone() method implemented :)
20:23 PerlJam It would be good enough if TPF could fund autrijus for a year
20:24 fglock fortunately the MM have been evolving, so when it finally gets implemented, it would be "right"
20:24 GeJ does he have a paypal account or something?
20:24 Limbic_Region GeJ yes
20:25 Limbic_Region I wrote a journal entry about his current state of funding and accepting donations
20:25 Limbic_Region let me see if I can find it
20:25 GeJ Limbic_Region: oh yes, I remember that
20:25 Limbic_Region http://use.perl.org/~Limbic%20Region/journal/26062
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20:30 GeJ Limbic_Region: mail only... ok.
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20:39 * geoffb is finally back with a new system
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20:42 fglock welcome back geoffb, be welcome, system
20:44 geoffb :-)
20:44 geoffb rafl, ping
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20:45 rafl geoffb: pong
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20:46 geoffb rafl, where is pugs in the upload process?
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20:46 geoffb I was going to take the opportunity with the new system to try an apt-get
20:47 rafl geoffb: http://ftp-master.debian.org/new.html
20:47 rafl geoffb: If you would like I can provide you some debs built with pbuilder.
20:48 geoffb Nah, I was just going to test and then overwrite with a hand-built one anyway.
20:48 geoffb thanks though.
20:48 geoffb Is it just waiting for time to pass, or is something else blocking it?
20:49 rafl geoffb: No. It's only waiting for ftp-master approval.
20:49 geoffb nodnod
20:50 rafl Well, haskell-src-exts also is. If it's approved I'll also do an hs-plugins upload so we'll get haskell eval support for pugs.
20:52 rafl Maybe I'll also do that upload before, but we'll need to wait for the ftp-masters anyway.
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20:53 rafl geoffb: But what you should be able to install right now is everything that pugs needs to build/run/smoke/whatever (except, hs-plugins and parrot) (if I didn't miss something obvious).
20:54 geoffb rafl, nodnod
20:54 geoffb right now I'm trying to find my old subversion password so I can be a committer again.  :-)
20:55 rafl Uhm, I think debian can't help you with that.
20:55 geoffb rafl, heh
20:55 sleepster_ has joined #perl6
20:55 sleepster_ hi
20:56 geoffb hi sleepster
20:56 sleepster_ moo.
20:58 geoffb Oh wow, over 7000 revs.  Go team!
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21:05 fglock geoffb: http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Home/Guest/Reminder.html - password reminder
21:05 geoffb fglock, thanks for the info.  Thankfully, I had not nuked my old machine -- of dubious merit, subversion stores passwords in plaintext
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21:06 geoffb right now I'm just doing a massive sync, and seeing how many of pugs's build-depends I can actually install right now
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22:25 rafl Yeeeeeehaaaaw! 1596     050914 Debian Installer               (  21) pugs_6.2.9-1_i386.changes ACCEPTED
22:25 * rafl does the "pugs is in Debian"-dance
22:26 integral wow!  that's fantastic!
22:30 rafl haskell-src-exts as well. Jippi.
22:33 rafl Hm. I have no more packages waiting in the NEW queue now.. I think that should be changed. :-)
22:41 geoffb has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:43 * rafl considers to go to sleep after being awake about 34 hours..
22:46 luqui rafl, probably a good idea
22:46 GoCooL has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:46 * luqui can't go much more than 24
22:47 GoCooL has joined #perl6
22:47 rafl Well, I still have half a beer to go. :-)
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23:34 rafl Grr.. I can't sleep anymore. Help!
23:35 luqui *whack*
23:38 rafl Hm. Something useful to to would be cool. Do you want some of your stuff packaged in Debian, luqui?
23:39 luqui some of my stuff?
23:39 rafl s/stuff/CPAN $&/
23:40 luqui huh.  sure.
23:40 * luqui wonders what he's proud of enough...
23:40 rafl Or did you write some other cool software that may be usefull in Debian?
23:40 luqui nope, I haven't :-)
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23:44 rafl How about Perl6::Class?
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23:49 rafl svnbot seems to be dead again. :-(
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23:53 rafl No? OK, I'll play some blobwars in this case..
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