Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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05:04 gaal morning!
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05:10 dduncan evening!
05:10 dduncan however, I can't stay and chat, since sleep beckens
05:11 dduncan s/c//
05:11 dduncan adieu!
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09:32 gaal autrijus, how's your passport situation?
09:32 gaal hey szabgab :)
09:32 szabgab autrijus, while answering gaal, I would like to ask you if you have time after OSCON EU to come to visit the Hungarian Perl Workshop ?
09:32 szabgab hi gaal
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09:33 new-b hello
09:34 gaal hi b
09:35 new-b hi gaal :)
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10:43 nothingmuch morning
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10:49 gaal hey nm
10:49 gaal nice module
10:51 nothingmuch hi ho
10:51 nothingmuch grazie
10:51 * nothingmuch really wants to finish the type inferrencer for Blondie, but is at work =(
10:51 nothingmuch all day i've been chasing silliness
10:52 gaal maybe you need to write a silliness chaser to do that for you
10:52 nothingmuch MSDEV took another 20 minutes out of my life because it failed to write a file but was displaying it as if it was written
10:52 gaal see if you can throw a type inferencer into that
10:52 nothingmuch our unit testing library got the TODO feature since someone finally asked for it
10:52 nothingmuch and some script broke because of a very stupid versioning scheme
10:53 nothingmuch how do you type infer silliness?
10:53 nothingmuch i think silliness is a bottom type
10:53 gaal yeah, and stupidity is a pervasive type
10:53 nothingmuch pugs is costing me lots of money =(
10:53 * nothingmuch spent $170 on books so far
10:54 nothingmuch $1000 or so on a flight
10:54 nothingmuch $3500 on a new laptop
10:56 gaal add psychiatric expenses
10:57 nothingmuch oh my
10:57 gaal however, it'll get you a free ticket to yapc
10:57 nothingmuch really?
10:58 gaal because you'll have oodles of things you can talk about
10:58 nothingmuch oh, i see
10:58 * nothingmuch always paid when he was a speaker
10:58 nothingmuch what will i talk about?
10:58 gaal whatever you like, of course
10:58 * nothingmuch will think
10:59 gaal pitching MMD the way you think of it, for example
10:59 szabgab hi nothingmuch !
10:59 nothingmuch heh
10:59 nothingmuch hi szabgab
11:14 nothingmuch szabgab: so, do you have any suggestions for what I could talk about?
11:14 nothingmuch silly idea: Perl 6 is Here Today! Tomorrow Next Week!
11:15 nothingmuch essentially - far fetched ideas for perl 6's future
11:15 nothingmuch especially WRT implementation - all the crap I write p6l about
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11:31 gaal yeah, for you the hard part doesn't seem to be thinking of "all the crap"
11:31 gaal it's explaining it :)
11:41 szabgab nothingmuch that should be in a few month from now, not today
11:41 nothingmuch i'll find a topic
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12:24 gaal fe
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12:47 rafl_ Hello.
12:47 rafl_ On 64 bit archs I get the following messages when compiling:
12:47 rafl_ Triggering rebuild... done.
12:47 rafl_ Generating precompiled Prelude... pugs: internal error: scavenge_one: strange o bject 68
12:48 rafl_ Is this a pugs or a ghc bug?
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12:57 gaal ghc
12:57 gaal what ghc are you using?
12:57 gaal do you get it in the same place every time?
12:57 gaal how much ram do you have?
12:59 rafl_ gaal: ghc 6.4-4.1 on Debian.
12:59 rafl_ gaal: I don't know how the buildd's hardware looks like.
13:00 rafl_ s/how/what/
13:00 gaal hmm, it happens when your pugs is eating lots of ram. i wonder if we can influence its runtime allocation.
13:00 gaal s/your/their/
13:02 rafl_ So who needs to fix that? ghc I guess.
13:04 gaal there may be a way for us to set that. i don't have time to look into in now though
13:04 gaal oh, RTS is available on the command line...
13:04 gaal can you ask them to do something like
13:04 gaal 1. build a pugs with no precomp prelude (vi config.yml and s/true/false)
13:06 gaal 2. try to comp a prelude like this: ./pugs +RTS -M350m -RTS -CPugs src/perl6/Prelude.pm > /dev/null
13:06 gaal if this helps, we can fix this
13:07 gaal see http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/h​tml/users_guide/runtime-control.html
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13:15 * rafl_ tries
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13:24 * luqui just learned Curry
13:24 luqui it makes me want to decouple parsing strategy from patterns in perl 6
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13:24 luqui but without a drastic reformulation of "let", I don't think it's possible
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13:25 luqui so, it's time to work on a drastic reformulation of "let" (just kidding ;-)
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13:47 gaal rafl_, ping
13:48 rafl_ gaal: pong
13:48 gaal try also talking to putter, a random google shows he'd submitted a bug report to ghc about this.
13:48 rafl_ is now known as rafl
13:49 rafl OK, thanks.
14:08 rafl WTF is perl5/Perl6-MetaModel2.0/d​ocs/p6_role_model.graffle ?
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14:45 gaal rafl: I think it's a data file for pretty diagrams.
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15:26 nothingmuch woo!!
15:26 nothingmuch App(Sym('&print'), Sym('$*OUT'), Val(42)) --> App(Val(Prim), Val(*STDOUT), Val(42))
15:26 nothingmuch then gets type annotated
15:27 nothingmuch App(Val(Prim::(GV -> PV -> IV)), Val(*STDOUT::GV), Val(42::IV)))::IV
15:27 nothingmuch since there is a conflict, the Val(42) is coerced from IV to PV
15:28 nothingmuch (the runtime provides this - in the perl runtime it's jsut sub { "$_[0]" }
15:28 nothingmuch so the tree is trasformed to
15:28 nothingmuch App(Val(Prim), Val(*STDOUT), App(Val(Prim), Val(42))
15:29 nothingmuch well, actually to the &cast builtin, so App(Val(Prim), Val(42), Val(PV), Val(IV))
15:30 nothingmuch someone say yay or something
15:56 GeJ "yay".say
16:02 * nothingmuch works on inter sub propagation of values
16:02 nothingmuch err, types
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16:17 svnbot6 r7036 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
16:17 svnbot6 r7036 | stevan++ | * sketched out role(Role) in psyche
16:17 svnbot6 r7036 | stevan++ | * Role now calls resolve() on it's won in MiniMetaMode_w_Roles
16:17 svnbot6 r7036 | stevan++ | * added test to show that the model can host inside-out objects
16:17 svnbot6 r7036 | stevan++ | * other misc. minor tweaks
16:18 nothingmuch huzzah!!!!! '&say' now enforces the PV type on Val(42) when it's IV
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16:19 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 82.81.247.180 pasted "typechecked App(Sym('&say'), Val(42))" (184 lines, 13K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13188
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16:22 * nothingmuch wonders wheather to clean out all that useful debugging or not ;-)
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16:50 gaal maybe commented-out trace prints need to be tagged by feature, so that they can be nuked quickly later?
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17:12 nothingmuch that's a nice idea
17:12 nothingmuch but if you're going that far, just Log::Log4perl
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17:59 nothingmuch "http://nothingmuch.woobling.​org/blondie_type_annotation." ~ any(<<png pdf>>)
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18:05 * nothingmuch ponders whether to do type inferrencing of generics, or to compile to a static language first
18:11 svnbot6 r7037 | nothingmuch++ | Type inferrencing Blondie:
18:11 svnbot6 r7037 | nothingmuch++ | * Blondie::TypeSafe does type inferrencing (no generics yet)
18:11 svnbot6 r7037 | nothingmuch++ | * example.pl simplified to demo it
18:11 svnbot6 r7037 | nothingmuch++ | * lots and lots of debugging info
18:11 svnbot6 r7038 | nothingmuch++ | explanation
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18:17 svnbot6 r7039 | nothingmuch++ | Fix up edge colors for fully annotated AST
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18:31 ods15 wow, sounds like larry wall and pugs guy are visiting in israel
18:31 ods15 unless i misunderstood this mail
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18:33 Khisanth autrijus and larry are visiting isreal?
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18:33 nothingmuch yep
18:34 Khisanth ods15: nope! you didn't misunderstand! :P
18:34 ods15 heh
18:35 nothingmuch btw, pugs guy has a name, y'know
18:35 nothingmuch it's our very own autrijus
18:35 ods15 its hard to type
18:35 nothingmuch you can use tab completion
18:35 ods15 i refrain from typing any weird names because i will probably mispell them
18:35 ods15 well i didnt know he was here
18:35 Khisanth a<tab> :)
18:35 ods15 Amnesiac:
18:36 nothingmuch for a long time jp-autark called himself 'autark-jp' so we would always call autrijus autark
18:36 nothingmuch au<tab>
18:36 Khisanth not here :P
18:36 nothingmuch autrijus: he isn't... he is in taiwan, leaving for estonia
18:36 Amnesiac ods15, yes?
18:36 ods15 ... nm
18:36 nothingmuch but YAPC::Israel is in feb
18:36 nothingmuch Amnesiac: ods15 was learning about his tab completion feature ;-)
18:36 ods15 ugh i hate ::
18:36 Amnesiac ah
18:36 Amnesiac :/
18:37 Khisanth hmm last msg field is broken
18:37 nothingmuch ods15: bummer
18:38 ods15 ?
18:42 nothingmuch WRT ::
18:43 ods15 whats wrt
18:43 nothingmuch with respect to
18:57 wolverian can object attributes have where { } clauses?
18:57 nothingmuch like has $.x where { } ?
18:57 wolverian can variables in general have where clauses? (basically, shortcut to STORE => { ... })
18:57 wolverian nothingmuch, right
18:57 nothingmuch i don't see a reason why not
18:57 nothingmuch as for variables:
18:57 nothingmuch my Any where { } $x; # subtyyped
18:57 nothingmuch i would guess
18:57 wolverian right.
18:57 wolverian ?eval class Foo { has $.x where { 0 < $
18:57 evalbot_7039 Error:  unexpected "w" expecting trait, "handles", ";" or "}"
18:57 wolverian er
18:58 wolverian ?eval class Foo { has $.x where { 0 < $^x < 40 } }
18:58 evalbot_7039 Error:  unexpected "w" expecting trait, "handles", ";" or "}"
18:58 wolverian oh well. :)
18:58 nothingmuch ?eval class Foo { has Any where { 0 < $^x < 40 } $.x }
18:58 evalbot_7039 Error:  unexpected "w" expecting variable name
18:58 nothingmuch =)
18:58 wolverian nothingmuch, if an object attribute has a 'where' clause, is the clause checked on each assignment?
18:59 rafl gaal: Thanks.
18:59 wolverian I mean, does it apply to private assignments too, or only ones via the public accessor?
18:59 nothingmuch i would guess so
18:59 nothingmuch (always)
18:59 wolverian right, if the feature is general to all variables
18:59 nothingmuch if you want it just public, make an acessor on your own:
19:00 wolverian could you check this on p6l, or is there a reference I could read to believe it is so?
19:00 nothingmuch class Foo { has $.x; method x (Any where { ... } $.x) { } }
19:00 nothingmuch this automatically sets $.x, as documented in s06 or s12
19:00 wolverian I have to go shower now and I won't be back today
19:00 wolverian :)
19:00 wolverian thanks
19:00 nothingmuch uh, i'm not sure how to ask
19:00 wolverian I'm interested in the general property
19:00 nothingmuch if sxx doesn't help, you mail p6l
19:00 wolverian nothingmuch, right, but is this documented in Sxx? if so, do you have to have the Any there
19:01 wolverian ?
19:01 wolverian nothingmuch, because that's pretty ugly
19:01 nothingmuch well, I guess you could omit Any
19:01 nothingmuch but that's a p6l question
19:01 wolverian (my $foo is Int where { ... }; is naturally not ugly, but not everyone Types their variables)
19:01 wolverian nothingmuch, right. want to ask that? :) shower, bye!
19:01 nothingmuch nope =)
19:01 nothingmuch but i may
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19:27 nothingmuch oh my... this is going to be tough
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19:54 * Juerd has suspend to memory and suspend to disk working
19:54 Juerd for the first time in my life :)
19:54 Juerd IBM ThinkPad X41 ++
19:54 Juerd Kubuntu ++
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20:03 nothingmuch =)
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20:23 gaal ThinkPad++ indeed
20:24 gaal does anyone know how the new company is, whatever they're called?
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20:46 rafl Juerd: Yes! Does suspend to ram work for you, btw?
20:48 Khisanth gaal: new company for what?
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20:54 rafl Juerd: Oh, you wrote it works. How did you get STR working?
21:03 wolverian nothingmuch, oh, that reminds me (and it's the next day already so I didn't lie ;) - I wanted a way to set attribute accessors in the 'has' statement, like C#
21:03 wolverian nothingmuch, has $.foo get { ... } set { ... }; or so
21:03 * nothingmuch doesn't know C#
21:03 nothingmuch that sounds cool though
21:03 nothingmuch but perhaps overly sugared
21:04 wolverian perhaps. the point is to attach that to the 'has' statement
21:04 wolverian (for easier refactoring etc)
21:04 * nothingmuch delays the nested call placeholder synchronicity bug in the inferrencer till tomorrow
21:04 nothingmuch *yawn*
21:04 nothingmuch time to emit some C
21:05 Juerd rafl: What's STR? :)
21:06 wolverian I'll mail this to p6l, if no-one has objections
21:06 nothingmuch wolverian++
21:06 Juerd 23:04 < wolverian> nothingmuch, has $.foo get { ... } set { ... }; or so
21:06 Juerd isn't that just has $foo will FETCH { ... } will STORE { ... }?
21:07 Juerd $.foo even
21:07 wolverian Juerd, oh, that works? :)
21:07 wolverian I obviously skipped some synopses then
21:07 wolverian Juerd++
21:09 Juerd I don't know if it WORKS
21:09 Juerd But IIRC, that's how it's done
21:10 Juerd Is p6l dead, by the way?
21:10 Juerd Last message I received was 3 days ago
21:12 wolverian same here
21:27 cognominal same here
21:27 cognominal and I am worried about Nicholas being Warnocked
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21:32 obra hmm?
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21:37 * nothingmuch 's brain is tired
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21:38 nothingmuch s/tired/liquified/
21:39 obra nick has ways of getting the answes he needs
21:40 obra and if any implementor isn't getting what they beed thry should be mailing me
21:41 nothingmuch obra: i need cookies
21:41 nothingmuch to implement Blondie::Backend::C and Blondie::Backend::PIR
21:41 nothingmuch am i considered an implementor?
21:41 nothingmuch do I need to mail you? or is IRC enough?
21:41 obra email me :)
21:41 obra email is logged and threaded
21:46 Juerd IRC is threaded too. Just not in any usable way :)
21:46 nothingmuch obra: sent
21:46 nothingmuch damn amazon
21:46 nothingmuch they're buttfucking the environment
21:46 nothingmuch they shipped my two books yesterday
21:46 nothingmuch and my CD today
21:46 Juerd Isn't everyone?
21:47 nothingmuch so that the books will "get there sooner"
21:47 Juerd That's for the global economy, it keeps postal people working.
21:47 nothingmuch at least i'll pay less customs
21:47 Juerd Worse: one of my suppliers sends invoices in one envelope per page
21:48 Juerd That means that if you ordered enough from them to get a two-page invoice, you get two separate envelopes.
21:48 Juerd That's not just bad for the environment, it sucks to handle too.
21:48 nothingmuch what do they supply?
21:48 Juerd Computer stuff
21:49 Juerd 15 or so products fit on one page
21:50 * nothingmuch wonders if C wouldn't have such a bad name if the std c library was designed to be slightly easier to use
21:50 nothingmuch obra: well?
21:53 obra dude i'm  owalking around town o n irc with my phone
21:53 Juerd rafl: Oh! Suspend To Ram!
21:54 Juerd rafl: http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with​_display_remaining_black_after_resume
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21:54 Juerd rafl: And I had to remove cardctl -eject from the preparation script, because that crashes at a distance, when my EDGE card is inserted
21:56 nothingmuch obra: so why did you ask me to mail you?
21:57 obra er. youb said you were blocking on something right?
21:57 nothingmuch i said I wanted cookies
21:57 obra oh. I was asuming pmcs
21:57 obra heh
21:58 nothingmuch oh, no... i don't grok those yet
21:58 obra i'll get in the nex elal flight out of logan
21:58 nothingmuch nono, that'll take too long
21:58 nothingmuch just mail them
21:59 * nothingmuch calls it a night after having made 0 progress in the last 2 hours
21:59 obra heh
21:59 nothingmuch but all in all twas a productive day
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22:09 svnbot6 r7040 | nothingmuch++ |  r8165@syeeda:  nothingmuch | 2005-09-19 01:03:46 +0300
22:09 svnbot6 r7040 | nothingmuch++ |  Blondie:
22:09 svnbot6 r7040 | nothingmuch++ |  * Minor refactoring of prim handling (more to come to :::Builtins)
22:09 svnbot6 r7040 | nothingmuch++ |  * Improvements to pretty printer readability
22:09 svnbot6 r7040 | nothingmuch++ |  * Better tracing in type engine - still have to fix >1 call level and placeholder synchronicity.
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22:53 dduncan nothingmuch, is there a Dagwood module to go with the Blondie one?
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