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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 00:00 | xinming1983 is now known as xinming_BeiJing | |
| 00:02 | stevan has joined #perl6 | |
| 00:02 | stevan | luqui: re: graffle |
| 00:02 | no I think you can use a limited eval version | |
| 00:02 | I bought it because I use it for work all the time | |
| 00:09 | psyhofreak has quit IRC () | |
| 00:10 | nothingmuch | mega luqui++ for fmap redux |
| 00:10 | and mega luqui++ for theories | |
| 00:11 | luqui | Arrr, thank ye |
| 00:11 | P-) | |
| 00:12 | nothingmuch | Sep 19th is over here =) |
| 00:13 | xinming_BeiJing | Hi,all, Now I am in Laptop... Really happy for getting the first Laptop in my life. |
| 00:14 | luqui | not here |
| 00:14 | another six hours to go | |
| 00:14 | xinming_BeiJing | hmm, Why doesn't pugs be updated these days please? |
| 00:14 | luqui | xinming_BeiJing: hmm? |
| 00:14 | xinming_BeiJing | It seems it's being lasting quite for 2 days... |
| 00:15 | * luqui | scampers off to gander TaPL |
| 00:16 | stevan | luqui: more theories stuff? where? |
| 00:16 | re: TaPL | |
| 00:16 | I am still trying to grasp Church Numerals fully,.. that is some really really really cool stuff | |
| 00:17 | luqui | use.perl |
| 00:17 | oh, what? | |
| 00:17 | yeah, functions isomorphic to numbers is pretty sweet | |
| 00:17 | stevan | I mean I "get" it, but my mind see it as being too simple to be true |
| 00:17 | * luqui | wrote increment/decrement/addition of church numerals in haskell |
| 00:17 | luqui | and they worked |
| 00:18 | (wikipedia's definition of subtraction is wrong though) | |
| 00:18 | stevan | I was gonna write them in perl :) |
| 00:18 | luqui | er, multiplications |
| 00:18 | evalbot_7042 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) | |
| 00:18 | luqui | haskell is a bit cleaner in that domain, but have at it |
| 00:18 | see the lambda_calculus.p6 that was recently checked in | |
| 00:18 | anyway, re: theory stuff | |
| 00:18 | evalbot_7043 has joined #perl6 | |
| 00:19 | luqui | a role is a single-parameter theory that obeys a certain property |
| 00:19 | stevan | yes I saw that,.. I wanted to expand it with examples from TaPL |
| 00:19 | svnbot6 | r7043 | putter++ | PIL-Run - fixed p6_to_a(), and \@INC. A simple replacement Test.pm is again used for make test and smoke, as the real one currently fails with Perl6-Container/Perl6-Value errors (eg, is(1,1,'x') doesn't work). |
| 00:19 | luqui | aa soo |
| 00:22 | stevan | luqui: is there a way to do to the "next method" in C::MM::Pure? |
| 00:22 | luqui | er, no |
| 00:22 | * luqui | wonders how he would implement that |
| 00:22 | wonders what the exact semantics are | |
| 00:22 | * stevan | wonders how luqui will too |
| 00:22 | luqui | stevan, what exact semantics would be useful to you? |
| 00:22 | nothingmuch | before i nod off i'd like to raise my hat to stevan & luqui for making perl6 much more beautiful on the inside |
| 00:22 | stevan | next METHOD in multiple dispatch context is supposed to first try the next most appliable mulit-method |
| 00:22 | nothingmuch: thanks :) | |
| 00:23 | * luqui | smiles bigly |
| 00:23 | luqui | thanks |
| 00:23 | stevan | nothingmuch: are you saying we are ugly on the outside? |
| 00:23 | nothingmuch | nope |
| 00:23 | perl 6 was very much a handwavy fog on the inside | |
| 00:23 | stevan | oh,.. that changed? |
| 00:23 | nothingmuch | but WRT the metamodel, and theories, and type inferrence, and all that, I think we are making amazing progress |
| 00:24 | towards a language that is designed to be much more balanced than anything else | |
| 00:24 | while reaching for both ends of the spectrum | |
| 00:24 | strong typing and dynamic typing | |
| 00:24 | * stevan | blushes |
| 00:24 | nothingmuch | a good metamodel |
| 00:24 | good functional support | |
| 00:24 | sound definitions of internals | |
| 00:24 | (sound == elegant + practical) | |
| 00:25 | these things are slowly mounting, and they aren't going away | |
| 00:25 | and I think that you two are responsible for a lot of it... so thanks =) | |
| 00:25 | luqui | :-D |
| 00:26 | and to return the complement, I think I'd like to see nothingmuch in charge of a virtual machine someday | |
| 00:26 | way cool ideas | |
| 00:26 | stevan | here here |
| 00:26 | I second that | |
| 00:27 | nothingmuch | neh |
| 00:27 | my current obsession with the compilation process is just a manifestation of another love | |
| 00:27 | it'll go away soon | |
| 00:27 | what I really like is to see a good plan come together from end to end | |
| 00:27 | stevan | of course it would be side gig from his real career as a porn star |
| 00:27 | luqui | haha |
| 00:27 | nothingmuch | and high level things that are useful and go all the way down to actually working is what is making me interested in VMs |
| 00:28 | and yes, there's that | |
| 00:28 | then I'll go into politics | |
| 00:28 | luqui | is there any other path? |
| 00:28 | nothingmuch | or start a wikipedia of my own |
| 00:28 | stevan | nothingmuch for president!!!!! |
| 00:28 | nothingmuch | (see also bomis.com) |
| 00:28 | stevan | oh wait,.. we alreayd have that here |
| 00:28 | luqui | stevan: lol |
| 00:29 | * stevan | praises local again,.. but this time with symbol tables :) |
| 00:29 | nothingmuch | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomis |
| 00:29 | luqui | stevan, you'll be cursing local soon, when it refuses to let you do it to lexicals |
| 00:29 | nothingmuch | luqui: aye, that always depressed me about local =/ |
| 00:29 | stevan | luqui: I only need it to rebind global |
| 00:30 | s | |
| 00:30 | nothingmuch | as local is really scope of execution and my/our is scope of definition, which is why perl6's attitude towards these things is so much better |
| 00:30 | stevan | $?SELF, $?CLASS, $?ROLE, $?PACKAGE and now "next METHOD" |
| 00:30 | I was previously keeping my own stack,.. which was wasteful | |
| 00:32 | I actually got the local rebinding idea from CLOS | |
| 00:32 | * luqui | 's battery is going |
| 00:32 | luqui | my mind is going |
| 00:32 | stevan | part of the 'apply-method' function calls a 'add-function-bindings' which makes lexical binding for method execution |
| 00:32 | luqui | my mind is going |
| 00:32 | luqui has quit IRC ("Leaving") | |
| 00:33 | stevan | its a very cool approach, so I was happy to see it work in perl too |
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| 00:47 | gantrixx | anyone here living in arizona? |
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| 00:49 | svnbot6 | r7044 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 - |
| 00:49 | r7044 | stevan++ | * adding new example test (classic OO shapes) | |
| 00:49 | r7044 | stevan++ | * making next_METHOD rebound for each dispatch, making it specific to | |
| 00:49 | r7044 | stevan++ | it's execution context, this removed the need for manual mangement | |
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| 01:03 | * stevan | is amazed at how useful local and lvalue subs have proven to be in the metamodel |
| 01:03 | stevan | I have never found a good for use for them before this :) |
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| 01:07 | svnbot6 | r7045 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 - |
| 01:07 | r7045 | stevan++ | * changing opaque_instance_attrs($) into opaque_instance_attr($$) so that it will | |
| 01:07 | r7045 | stevan++ | fetch the label for you, making the opaque instance structure further opaque and | |
| 01:07 | r7045 | stevan++ | making way for some cool things with Roles (more on that later) | |
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| 01:19 | svnbot6 | r7046 | putter++ | PIL/Run/PrimX.pm: a couple of new primitives, a bit of cleanup. |
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| 04:02 | svnbot6 | r7047 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/Test.pm: more Test subs. And :todo is now tolerated (but doesn't actually work), which unfortunately required... |
| 04:02 | r7047 | putter++ | perl5/Perl6-Value/lib/Perl6/Code.pm: short-circuited check_params(). It now always returns 1. This is a work-around hack to let simple Test almost work, despite sub f(*%h){};f() currently failing. | |
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| 04:20 | svnbot6 | r7048 | gaal++ | fatal.pm in Prelude. Exposes a bug in %*INC not being checked |
| 04:20 | r7048 | gaal++ | correctly before 'use'. It's interesting to see whether this | |
| 04:20 | r7048 | gaal++ | module works correctly (once lexical pragmas do) since it does | |
| 04:20 | r7048 | gaal++ | things that need to work in different calling contexts. | |
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| 05:08 | gaal | bug report: "pugs" on win32 doesn't work, because that OS doesn't have unix's automatic interpreted binary mechanism. |
| 05:08 | svnbot6 | r7049 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/P5Runtime/PrimP6.pm: statement_control:for now works with blocks of both arity 1 and 2. But not > 2 (for no good reason). |
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| 05:29 | Detonite has joined #Perl6 | |
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| 05:29 | Detonite | Good morning... |
| 05:33 | dduncan | good evening |
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| 05:37 | zamolxes has joined #perl6 | |
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| 05:37 | Detonite | ?eval 5 |
| 05:37 | evalbot_7049 | 5 |
| 05:39 | putter has joined #perl6 | |
| 05:40 | revdiablo | ?eval 5**5 |
| 05:40 | evalbot_7049 | 3125 |
| 05:44 | nothingmuch | morning |
| 05:44 | Detonite | Morning |
| 05:52 | ?eval ? | |
| 05:52 | evalbot_7049 | Error: unexpected end of input expecting term |
| 05:53 | putter | status report: perl5 backend PIL-Run: the current bottleneck is Perl6-Value and Perl6-Container. Repair of Code.pm's support for slurpy array arguments is perhaps the most pressing. But there is a lot which is not working. PIL-Run's current role is to exercise metamodel and Perl6-Value/Container objects. MM1 is working fine for now. But the objects need work. Fyi. |
| 05:54 | zamolxes has left | |
| 05:58 | putter | a recent pilrun smoke was 41%. if the test :todo's could be slurped and "# TODO"'ed, it would be over 50%. |
| 05:59 | good night & | |
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| 06:22 | gaal has left "goodbye everyone, see again you soon I hope!" | |
| 06:23 | nothingmuch has left "work &" | |
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| 06:32 | svnbot6 | r7050 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : merge in the latest changes made to the Perl 5 version |
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| 06:38 | svnbot6 | r7051 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/Test.pm: Now handles :todo's. A temporary kludge - when argument passing works better, this will break. And can then be replaced. (ie, use slurpy hash parameters, which currently don't exist/work) |
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| 07:21 | svnbot6 | r7052 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Removed obsolete TODO. Created README with usage hints. |
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| 07:21 | * Detonite | welcomes evalbot_7052 |
| 07:22 | nothingmuch | 8192 would be nice |
| 07:22 | it's a big number | |
| 07:23 | webmind- | and a round number |
| 07:23 | Detonite | Aye, quite round. |
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| 08:15 | svnbot6 | r7053 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Added graphs() and codes(). string/length.t now mostly passes. |
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| 09:27 | svnbot6 | r7054 | putter++ | PIL/Run/EvalX.pm: improved temp() |
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| 09:34 | nothingmuch | holy crap |
| 09:34 | i have C | |
| 09:35 | cognominal has joined #perl6 | |
| 09:36 | GeJ | nothingmuch: you have C? is it that bad? C is less fun than Perl6 for sure, but it's not _that_ bad, is it? |
| 09:36 | nothingmuch | i mean Blondie is compiling to C |
| 09:37 | GeJ | sounds sweet... |
| 09:37 | nothingmuch | shyte |
| 09:37 | i can't Inline::C it though | |
| 09:37 | since my types conflict with it | |
| 09:39 | * nothingmuch | does some yucky search and replace |
| 09:40 | nothingmuch | WOOT! |
| 09:40 | ods15 | ..... |
| 09:40 | nothingmuch | IT FUCKING WORKS! IT REALLY REALLY WORKS |
| 09:40 | ods15 | if it's C, KEEP IT FRIGGIN C |
| 09:40 | C is good | |
| 09:41 | GeJ | I think he means "IT'S ALIVE! ALIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!!" |
| 09:41 | * Detonite_ | claps |
| 09:41 | ods15 | bleh |
| 09:41 | * ods15 | bleh's at all |
| 09:41 | GeJ | nm++ |
| 09:41 | pasteling | "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "say(42) in C" (32 lines, 742B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13215 |
| 09:41 | ods15 | most of this channel seems to like perl6 more than C :/ |
| 09:42 | nothingmuch | ods15: duh |
| 09:42 | C is a headache | |
| 09:42 | ods15 | C is friggin awesom |
| 09:42 | nothingmuch | you shouldn't write in C, you should compile to it ;-) |
| 09:42 | ods15 | typedef int IV; typedef FILE * GV; typedef char * PV; |
| 09:42 | wtf??? | |
| 09:42 | Detonite_ | Feh. Pure binary is the only truth. |
| 09:42 | nothingmuch | ods15: quick hack to match to Cification of perl values |
| 09:43 | in perl an IV is an SV that represents an integer | |
| 09:43 | it's really a struct | |
| 09:43 | since I'm doing static typing, i'm just using a real int instead | |
| 09:43 | PV is pointer to string | |
| 09:43 | GV is filehandle | |
| 09:43 | ods15 | Detonite_: i've done a bit of that actually |
| 09:43 | nothingmuch | you keep "wtf???"ing at stuff like we're idiot |
| 09:44 | s | |
| 09:44 | ods15 | it was quite fun |
| 09:44 | nothingmuch: no, it just means wtf | |
| 09:44 | nothingmuch | well, instead of saying "what the fuck" as if it's insane, you can say "please explain" |
| 09:44 | ods15 | anyway, lol, that's some hilarious C code :) |
| 09:44 | nothingmuch | why is it hilarious? |
| 09:44 | ods15 | the "leaks" :) |
| 09:45 | nothingmuch | fuck it, i'm not doing garbage collection |
| 09:45 | ods15 | also, sizeof(char) is just funny :) |
| 09:45 | nothingmuch | ods15: you program C and yyou think that's funny? |
| 09:45 | you are aware that char is not always 8 bits, right? | |
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| 09:46 | ods15 | rofl, no, it IS, unless you're doing f'ed up typedefs/defines |
| 09:47 | nothingmuch | ods15: no, it ISN'T |
| 09:47 | ods15 | it is garunteed by C standard that char is always 8 bits |
| 09:47 | nothingmuch | no, that's what it's guaranteed as the usable space |
| 09:47 | it may be aligned to anything else | |
| 09:47 | QtPlatypus | nothingmuch: Can't you use a poblically accessable garbage collector. |
| 09:47 | nothingmuch | in crays it's 256 values, but takes up 64 bits |
| 09:47 | since crays can only address by memory words and not bytes | |
| 09:48 | QtPlatypus: i don't know of any, i'm not a C coder | |
| 09:48 | w | |
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| 09:48 | QtPlatypus | publically. |
| 09:49 | nothingmuch | e.g. http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ ? |
| 09:49 | QtPlatypus | Exactly |
| 09:51 | pjcj | as I recall sizeof(char) is defined as 1 in the C standard |
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| 09:52 | nothingmuch | pjcj: even WRT allocation? |
| 09:52 | well, whatever... the compiler will optimize that away | |
| 09:52 | i was always told never to hard code magic numbers anyway | |
| 09:53 | my well behaved alter ego, which was telling me that all along, kicks in when coding in unfamiliar territories | |
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| 09:54 | pjcj | well, the sizeof a struct may not equal the sum of the sizeof its members, but sizeof(char) will always be 1 |
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| 10:13 | clkao | peskky padding |
| 10:17 | pjcj | pwd |
| 10:17 | bah | |
| 10:45 | ods15 | 12:47:23 <@ods15> ahem, sizeof(char) is ALWAYS 1, right? |
| 10:45 | 12:51:22 <@dalias> yes | |
| 10:45 | 12:52:12 <@iive> ods15, no | |
| 10:45 | 12:52:16 <@iive> it is at least 1 | |
| 10:45 | 12:52:24 <@dalias> iive, stfu and rtfm | |
| 10:45 | 12:52:30 <@dalias> sizeof(char) is 1 by definition | |
| 10:45 | 12:52:50 <@dalias> read the c standard or c.l.c faq if you don't believe me | |
| 10:45 | pjcj: yup | |
| 10:46 | and struct padding is a totally different thing | |
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| 11:02 | pjcj | of course, that doesn't mean 1 char is necessarily exactly 8 bits ... |
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| 11:31 | nothingmuch | me leaves sizeof(char) |
| 11:31 | don't feel like editing the file, because it really doesn't matter, and it helps me focus to see hints like that =) | |
| 11:32 | it allows me to reduce mental stack overflows when reading code i'm not 100% comfortable with | |
| 11:33 | oh god... not another bug in setup | |
| 11:33 | =( | |
| 11:33 | * nothingmuch | does not like maintaining code which is other people's fault |
| 11:33 | nothingmuch | i'm not sure whether I want to minimize my interaction with the code, and fix things trivially, or whether I should actually work to improve it's robustness |
| 11:33 | so that I get less bugs in the future | |
| 11:35 | pjcj | the maintenance programmer's dilemma |
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| 12:01 | QtPlatypus | nothingmuch: I suggest unit tests to solve that problem. |
| 12:01 | nothingmuch | QtPlatypus: this is absolutely not unit testable |
| 12:02 | QtPlatypus | THen you can you do robustness work without fear of introducing more bugs. |
| 12:02 | nothingmuch | just refactoring it from one giant heap into code that can actually be called by unit tests is going to take me forever |
| 12:02 | and the reason I don't want to do robustness work is because I don't want to waste time ;-) | |
| 12:03 | the code parts (Qt UI, configuration management, wizardly behavior, installation logic, and probing) are about as coupled as it gets | |
| 12:03 | it's about 6000 lines | |
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| 12:03 | QtPlatypus | Ouch |
| 12:03 | nothingmuch | i think 3000 or so are dead |
| 12:03 | it's filled with #ifdefs in places like parameter arguments | |
| 12:03 | e.g. | |
| 12:04 | int do_this ( foo param, | |
| 12:04 | #ifdef SOMEDDEF | |
| 12:04 | bar another, | |
| 12:04 | #endif | |
| 12:04 | ); | |
| 12:04 | and then the calls to do_this also look like that | |
| 12:04 | it's OOP, but doesn't really know it | |
| 12:04 | GeJ | ugly... :( |
| 12:04 | nothingmuch | things that should be instance data are passed around as parameters |
| 12:04 | even the naming thing is all bad | |
| 12:05 | Config::setConfig or something like that does the full installation ;-) | |
| 12:05 | and since block comments for non working features are pretty much 50% of the code, it's completely unreadable too | |
| 12:06 | i resorted to using doxygen's function call graphs, so that could actually understand which code happens when and what parts of it are relevant | |
| 12:06 | as I see it the code base has no value. I could reimplement all the features with Verby in about 2-3 days | |
| 12:06 | then I can learn perl's Qt bindings and write a GUI in about 2 weeks | |
| 12:06 | or I could port Verby to C++ in slightly less, and then do Qt in C++ for another 2 weeks or so | |
| 12:07 | but i don't want to, it's not important enough | |
| 12:19 | * nothingmuch | wwraps up his brain for the 40th time today |
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| 12:40 | kolibrie | ?eval $pattern = rx /(5)/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', '); |
| 12:40 | evalbot_7054 | Error: Undeclared variable: "$pattern" |
| 12:40 | kolibrie | ?eval my $pattern = rx /(5)/; say |
| 12:40 | evalbot_7054 | bool::true |
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| 12:41 | kolibrie | ?eval my $pattern = rx /(5)/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', '); |
| 12:41 | evalbot_7054 | 1234, 5, 6789 bool::true |
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| 12:41 | kolibrie | ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', '); |
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| 12:41 | kolibrie | ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', '); |
| 12:41 | evalbot_7055 | 1234, 6789 bool::true |
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| 12:42 | kolibrie | ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split(rx /($pattern)/).join(', '); |
| 12:42 | evalbot_7055 | 123456789 bool::true |
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| 12:42 | nothingmuch | kolibrie: this behavior has changed in P6, i think |
| 12:42 | see S04 | |
| 12:43 | kolibrie | so how do I capture? |
| 12:43 | nothingmuch | captures are the same |
| 12:43 | it's pattern interpolation that changed | |
| 12:43 | ?eval /5/ | |
| 12:43 | evalbot_7055 | Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode) |
| 12:43 | nothingmuch | ?eval rx/5/ |
| 12:43 | evalbot_7055 | {rule} |
| 12:43 | nothingmuch | ?eval ~ rx/5/ |
| 12:43 | evalbot_7055 | '<Pugs::Internals::VRule>' |
| 12:43 | nothingmuch | i think your pattern is trying to match that string inside 123456789 |
| 12:44 | s05, not s04... sorry | |
| 12:44 | kolibrie | so if I have a non-capturing rule |
| 12:44 | how do I pass it to split in such a way that it is captured? | |
| 12:45 | nothingmuch | http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/[…]05.html#Variable_(non-)interpolation |
| 12:46 | ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split(rx /(<$pattern>)/).join(', '); | |
| 12:46 | evalbot_7055 | *** Cannot parse PGE: :w::(<$pattern>) *** Error: PGE Parse error: invalid subrule name at offset 6 (found <<$>>) 123456789 bool::true |
| 12:46 | svnbot6 | r7055 | nothingmuch++ | Blondie: |
| 12:46 | r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - minimal compilation to C | |
| 12:46 | r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - no symbolic unification of duplicate nodes (necessary for recursion) | |
| 12:46 | r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - type safety issues need to be resolved for further progress | |
| 12:46 | nothingmuch | =) |
| 12:46 | scook0 | nothingmuch++ # asynchronous list-forcing |
| 12:46 | nothingmuch | i think that's how it'll work, but it's obviously not there yet |
| 12:47 | scook0 | I was going to reply to your thread, but didn't get around to it... :( |
| 12:47 | * nothingmuch | would like feedback, so do get around to it |
| 12:47 | nothingmuch | ==) |
| 12:47 | thanks | |
| 12:47 | scook0 | just to point out that all you need is &async_force, and everything else can be considered a shorthand for that |
| 12:48 | nothingmuch | ah... ofcourse =) |
| 12:48 | scook0 | but I can see gather:async being clearer in many cases |
| 12:48 | kolibrie | nothingmuch: that could be the syntax, S05 skips that example |
| 12:49 | nothingmuch | kolibrie: around the middle of "Extensible meta syntax" |
| 12:49 | A leading $ indicates an indirect rule. The variable must contain either a hard reference to a rule, or a string containing the rule. | |
| 12:49 | kolibrie | ah yes, that makes sense now |
| 12:49 | nothingmuch | ingy: ping |
| 12:50 | kolibrie | so, can that be fixed in pugs, or is that a pge thing? |
| 12:50 | nothingmuch | i think pge doesn't support it yet, and after that'll make it in it's pge/pugs integration |
| 12:50 | * nothingmuch | finally finished doing this: http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/I[…]ook.pod#Evaling_C |
| 12:51 | proudly claims to have "totally lost my marbles" | |
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| 14:02 | Limbic_Region | I just did a make clean, svn up, perl Makefile.PL, make, pugs -V for the first time in oh, about a month - anyone know why it says r6656? |
| 14:04 | PerlJam | Limbic_Region: I just did the same thing and I got r7055 |
| 14:06 | Limbic_Region | this is odd then cause when I svn up I am at the proper rev level |
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| 14:06 | Limbic_Region | *shrug* |
| 14:07 | PerlJam | perhaps you need to make clean or something |
| 14:07 | scook0 | Limbic_Region: simple things: did you check that the build succeeded, and that you're running the right binary? |
| 14:07 | Limbic_Region | see step 1 in my list above PerlJam |
| 14:07 | scook0 - yep and yep | |
| 14:08 | not a big deal - just wanted to play around with some higher order p5 code in p6 and see how much/little it changed | |
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| 14:08 | PerlJam | Limbic_Region: maybe you need to "make realclean" or "make distclean" or whatever the bleachy version of clean is. |
| 14:09 | Khisanth | realdistclean! :P |
| 14:09 | Limbic_Region | well - considering this box only has 256MB of ram and I can't even use all of it - I will wait until tonight to have another go at it |
| 14:11 | so has anyone been building any new/exciting projects with Pugs lately? | |
| 14:11 | * Limbic_Region | hasn't checked the examples directory since the whole ?? :: --> ?? !! change |
| 14:13 | Khisanth | EH?! |
| 14:13 | * Khisanth | goes to check summary |
| 14:14 | Limbic_Region | you mean you weren't aware of the the ?? :: to ?? !! change? |
| 14:14 | that wasn't in this week's summary but the previous | |
| 14:14 | which I believe was for 3 weeks | |
| 14:14 | IIRC | |
| 14:14 | Khisanth | hey autrijus is on perl.com :) |
| 14:15 | Limbic_Region | yeah - that article is a couple weeks old too |
| 14:15 | they apparently didn't post a new article as typically done on Thursday evenings | |
| 14:18 | Khisanth | I haven't checked perl.com in a while so it's new to me! |
| 14:20 | odd are posts in google groups newest > oldest from top to bottom? | |
| 14:20 | * Limbic_Region | checks more regularly now that he has gotten paid for writing an article published on perl.com |
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| 14:20 | Limbic_Region | dunno - I let gmail do that for me |
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| 14:32 | * Limbic_Region | wanders off to a doctor's appt |
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| 16:04 | nothingmuch | any news from autrijus? |
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| 16:45 | nothingmuch | i have a problem |
| 16:45 | this problem happens from time to time | |
| 16:45 | if ($condition) { pre }; | |
| 16:45 | unconditional middle; | |
| 16:46 | if ($condition) { post } | |
| 16:46 | i hate repeating conditional tests | |
| 16:46 | i hate repeating unconditional middle | |
| 16:46 | (even if it's just a single call) | |
| 16:46 | e.g. if ($condition) { pre; $self->foo; post } else { $self->foo } | |
| 16:47 | can anyone think of a solution? | |
| 16:47 | higher order functions are ofcourse an option: | |
| 16:47 | my $uncond = sub { $self->foo }; | |
| 16:48 | optional_wrapper($condition, sub { pre }, $uncond, sub { post }); | |
| 16:48 | this can be beautified with prototypes, but it's still rather clunky | |
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| 17:03 | nothingmuch | method mk_symbol ($node) { |
| 17:04 | state %allocated will autotovivify { | |
| 17:04 | my $type = $node.struct_equiv.type; | |
| 17:04 | ods15 | nothingmuch: bah, there's not much you can do about "split" conditional |
| 17:04 | not much to do about it :/ | |
| 17:05 | nothingmuch | join("_", $type, ++%.counters{$type}); |
| 17:05 | } | |
| 17:05 | ods15 | i hate it too |
| 17:05 | nothingmuch | $allocated{$node}; |
| 17:05 | } | |
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| 17:05 | nothingmuch | ods15: there's not much. you can do right now |
| 17:05 | but conceptually the logic flow is intuitive: | |
| 17:06 | pair up some code blocks | |
| 17:06 | and attach them to the same conditional | |
| 17:06 | ods15 | ? |
| 17:06 | nothingmuch | i'm asking for new syntax ideas |
| 17:06 | something prettier than: | |
| 17:06 | my $cond = <test>; | |
| 17:06 | if $cond { pre } | |
| 17:06 | mid | |
| 17:06 | if $cond { post } | |
| 17:06 | ods15 | if the conditional is intense i sometimes use a condition variable with a nive name :) |
| 17:07 | nice* name | |
| 17:07 | nothingmuch | that's not splitting it up |
| 17:07 | here is an idea: | |
| 17:07 | label: if ($condition) { pre } | |
| 17:07 | mid | |
| 17:07 | label: { post } | |
| 17:08 | where label is the same | |
| 17:08 | it's much more "static" than making a new variable | |
| 17:08 | ods15 | i dont like it |
| 17:08 | Aankhen`` | if ($condition) { pre; PAUSE { middle; }; post; } |
| 17:08 | Seems strange when I write it out. | |
| 17:08 | nothingmuch | Aankhen``: what I don't like about that is cuddling |
| 17:08 | Aankhen`` | Basically, I'm thinking of "pausing" the condition. |
| 17:08 | nothingmuch | the nested block is under the if () { } |
| 17:08 | so it's unintuitive to read it | |
| 17:09 | Aankhen`` | Yeah, I know, I don't like it either; just throwing out ideas./ |
| 17:09 | nothingmuch | but I wanted something like that |
| 17:09 | hmm | |
| 17:09 | Aankhen`` | s|/|| |
| 17:09 | nothingmuch | maybe just like if else: |
| 17:09 | ods15 | nothingmuch: find some other kind of parenthesis and reverse direction it |
| 17:09 | nothingmuch | if ($cond) { |
| 17:09 | } pause { | |
| 17:09 | mid | |
| 17:09 | } cont { | |
| 17:09 | } | |
| 17:09 | if ($condition) { | |
| 17:09 | } always { | |
| 17:09 | ods15 | anyway, i say give it up |
| 17:09 | nothingmuch | } conditional { |
| 17:09 | } | |
| 17:09 | ods15: what do those comments help | |
| 17:09 | Aankhen`` | Hmm. |
| 17:10 | nothingmuch | if you have critique, share it |
| 17:10 | ods15 | this feature accomplishes nothing imo, it's not more readable |
| 17:10 | nothingmuch | but there's no need to pessimize pointlessly |
| 17:10 | Aankhen`` | if ($condition) { ... } but always({ ... }) |
| 17:10 | Ahh, that reads better than it functions. :-P | |
| 17:10 | ods15 | arno, because you need it in the middle |
| 17:10 | nothingmuch | Aankhen``: i'm reminded of while (...) { } contineu { } |
| 17:10 | ods15 | heh |
| 17:10 | nothingmuch | s/eu/ue/ |
| 17:11 | ods15 | nothingmuch: well, the flaws are obvious :/ i'm thinking of solutions right now, and coming up empty |
| 17:11 | Aankhen`` | Me too, but it seems a little complicated. |
| 17:11 | (the if, always, conditional) | |
| 17:11 | nothingmuch | ods15: so please avoid pointless bashing |
| 17:11 | Aankhen`` | `if ($condition) { ... } pause { ... } resume { ... }` might make more sense there, BTW. |
| 17:11 | nothingmuch | hmm, i like that |
| 17:12 | Aankhen`` | Just a little lengthy... |
| 17:12 | nothingmuch | i think we need to s/pause/$thesaurus.lookup("always").pick/; |
| 17:12 | Aankhen`` | Indeed. |
| 17:13 | ods15 | "default" heh no |
| 17:13 | Aankhen`` | All of them are very lengthy... |
| 17:13 | nothingmuch | http://thesaurus.reference.com[…]h?q=unconditional |
| 17:13 | ods15 | i'm thinking switch statement :) |
| 17:13 | nothingmuch | ods15: we have that too, but it doesn't apply |
| 17:13 | lack of break in C can only move it downwards | |
| 17:13 | unless you add a goto or something | |
| 17:13 | ods15 | i wish switch supported this |
| 17:14 | Aankhen`` | Heh, "surely"... |
| 17:14 | ods15 | switch { case a: a_code; case b: b_code; case c: c_code; default: common code; } |
| 17:14 | nothingmuch | i think maybe 'uncond' instead of always/pause |
| 17:14 | ods15 | as in, each runs for it's case, and one that runs for several cases :/ |
| 17:14 | lol, "dead" | |
| 17:15 | Aankhen`` | ods15: given ($foo) { when 1 { ... }; when 2 { ... }; when 3 { ... }; common_code(); } |
| 17:15 | That's the Perl 6 version, IIRC. | |
| 17:15 | ods15 | Aankhen``: not wquit'e though |
| 17:15 | quite* | |
| 17:15 | i want even more | |
| 17:15 | nothingmuch | ods15: when in perl 6 is pretty cool |
| 17:15 | read in s04 it hink | |
| 17:15 | ods15 | switch { case a: a_code; case b: b_code; case c: c_code; abc_code; break; e_code: d_code: not_abc; } |
| 17:16 | nothingmuch | it's actually much simpler than it looks |
| 17:16 | ods15 | get what i meant |
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| 17:16 | Aankhen`` | ods15: Yes; too lazy to figure it out in P6 right now though. |
| 17:16 | nothingmuch: "uncond".chars == "always".chars | |
| 17:16 | ods15 | the 'common' code i can just put outside the switch if it was really common :) |
| 17:17 | nothingmuch | Aankhen``: so you want it shorter? |
| 17:17 | Aankhen`` | nothingmuch: Yes. |
| 17:17 | nothingmuch | hmm |
| 17:17 | Aankhen`` | I keep thinking of "yet". |
| 17:17 | nothingmuch | errm |
| 17:17 | let's chuck this at p6l | |
| 17:17 | Aankhen`` | if ($cond) { ... } yet { ... } resume { ... } |
| 17:17 | Mmm, TBH, it's not something which I'm dead set on. I can do without it. I'm just trying to give you suggestions. :-) | |
| 17:18 | nothingmuch | fairy nuff |
| 17:18 | Aankhen`` | Then again, if you do p6l it, I'll back you up: it should be fun. =) |
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| 17:20 | Aankhen`` | The most natural -- though sadly lengthy -- syntax would be: if ($cond) { ... } regardless { ... } again { ... } |
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| 17:20 | Aankhen`` | s/again/conditionally/ |
| 17:20 | nothingmuch | http://thesaurus.reference.com[…]arch?q=regardless |
| 17:21 | Aankhen`` | Hehe... if ($cond) { ... } anyhow { ... } but_conditionally { ... } |
| 17:21 | "but" is already taken, sadly. | |
| 17:22 | It's the only candidate. The others are too lengthy. | |
| 17:22 | nothingmuch | i don't like 'but' for this... it's too general |
| 17:22 | i don't mind long either... else and elsif are about as long as 'uncond' | |
| 17:22 | Aankhen`` | I'm not suggesting we use it, just lamenting the unfortunate state of affairs. |
| 17:22 | nothingmuch | not to mention 'else if' which i really would prefer over 'elsif' |
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| 17:23 | nothingmuch | i find typing the extra chars easier than remembering an arbitrary contraction |
| 17:23 | Aankhen`` | Dude, I don't mind long stuff either, but if we propose this, I'm quite certain people will keep a beady eye on the length. |
| 17:23 | nothingmuch | phooey for them |
| 17:23 | we'll see what happens ;-) | |
| 17:23 | Aankhen`` | Heh. |
| 17:24 | Then `uncond` seems to be a good choice. | |
| 17:24 | if ($cond) { ... } uncond { ... } resume { ... } | |
| 17:24 | nothingmuch | i don't like resume... here's why: |
| 17:24 | uncond always happens | |
| 17:25 | if () { ... } happens 50% of the time, you would guess | |
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| 17:25 | nothingmuch | so it seems to mee like resume is continuing the uncond for no appearant reason |
| 17:25 | Aankhen`` | Hmm, I see. |
| 17:26 | nothingmuch | recond sucks ;-) |
| 17:26 | Aankhen`` | I was thinking of in terms of this: `uncond` "suspends the conditionality of the following statements", whereas `resume` resumes the "conditionality". |
| 17:26 | nothingmuch | is there a word for predicated maybe? |
| 17:26 | yes, that makes sense, but from an execution perspective, not so much a linguistic one, i think | |
| 17:26 | Aankhen`` | Yeah, you're right. |
| 17:27 | nothingmuch | but let's use that for now |
| 17:27 | Aankhen`` | What about `conditionally`, since length isn't a factor? |
| 17:27 | nothingmuch | that's too much |
| 17:27 | ;-) | |
| 17:27 | Aankhen`` | Or, wait... just `cond`? |
| 17:27 | nothingmuch | yes, let's use that |
| 17:28 | Aankhen`` | if ($cond) { may_happen(); } uncond { always_happens(); } cond { may_happen_too(); } |
| 17:32 | Yay. Only 8 hours to go for the first season of Beast Wars to finish downloading. | |
| 17:33 | * nothingmuch | tries hard to finish the next big step in C compilation tonight |
| 17:33 | Aankhen`` | C compilation? |
| 17:34 | nothingmuch | Blondie compiles to C |
| 17:34 | Aankhen`` | Blondie? |
| 17:34 | nothingmuch | ah |
| 17:34 | Aankhen`` | Sorry, I appear to be out of the loop. |
| 17:34 | nothingmuch | Blondie is an intermediate language AST |
| 17:34 | Aankhen`` | I see. |
| 17:35 | dduncan | is there a Dagwood module to go with it? |
| 17:37 | * Aankhen`` | wanders off to play Condition Zero. |
| 17:39 | Aankhen`` | Oh great, powercut. BBL. |
| 17:39 | * Aankhen`` | hugs his UPS. |
| 17:40 | nothingmuch | that i'm playing around with |
| 17:40 | which is supposed to be a preview of the Perl 6 compilation pipeline | |
| 17:40 | so far it has a perl backend and a C backend that successfully share a prelude | |
| 17:40 | and simply replace the parts of the prelude that is easiest for them to replace | |
| 17:40 | nothingmuch has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection) | |
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| 17:40 | nothingmuch | bah, cable modem died |
| 17:40 | it has type inferrencing | |
| 17:40 | which is optional for the perl runtime, but required for C compilation | |
| 17:40 | (compilation goes down to bare metal types - no boxing whatsoever) | |
| 17:41 | dduncan: que es dagwood? | |
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| 17:46 | nothingmuch | gaal: ?! |
| 17:46 | gaal | aloha! |
| 17:47 | the army proves its stupidity yet again! | |
| 17:47 | they canceled the mission i was called for, but somebody forgot to send out notices | |
| 17:47 | nothingmuch | heh |
| 17:48 | gaal | so, that was a day wasted |
| 17:48 | now you know where your tax shekels are going | |
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| 17:49 | gaal | ooh, c! |
| 17:50 | what be "prel", nm? | |
| 17:50 | nothingmuch | builtin prelude replacement |
| 17:51 | perhaps it should be s/prel/builtin/ | |
| 17:51 | gaal | "native"? |
| 17:51 | nothingmuch | http://svn.openfoundry.org/pug[…]end/C/Builtins.pm |
| 17:51 | sub prelude { | |
| 17:51 | gaal | anyway, i need a nice long bath |
| 17:52 | or like the brits say when speaking of Jane Austen's favorite town, baaaaaath | |
| 17:52 | nothingmuch | heh |
| 17:52 | gaal | very nice to see you :-) |
| 17:52 | but, later | |
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| 17:57 | nothingmuch | oops |
| 17:57 | ciao | |
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| 18:21 | dduncan | nothingmuch, there is a well known newspaper comic strip called 'Dagwood', which is about a couple whose names are 'Dagwood' and 'Blondie' |
| 18:22 | it sounded like you were naming your module after the wife | |
| 18:22 | nothingmuch | oh |
| 18:22 | nop | |
| 18:22 | e | |
| 18:22 | dduncan | so I wondered if there was one named after the husband too |
| 18:22 | nothingmuch | abraxxa in #catalyst brought it up |
| 18:22 | i asked for a name for a dumb intermediate language | |
| 18:22 | i thought of calling it DIL | |
| 18:22 | dduncan | how about Dunce? |
| 18:23 | nothingmuch | too late |
| 18:23 | but that is acctually a pretty nice name | |
| 18:23 | too bad I didn't ask you earlier ;-) | |
| 18:24 | dduncan | now, I haven't RTFM yet, but what is Blondie to be used for ... or is it just a fun project? |
| 18:24 | nothingmuch | it's an experiment |
| 18:24 | i'm trying out the compilation scheme I raised to p6l with a smaller language | |
| 18:24 | i'm trying to write multiple backends that reuse as much code as possible | |
| 18:24 | dduncan | that's all I need to know |
| 18:24 | nothingmuch | but without limiting the possibility of optimizing any backend given enough time |
| 18:58 | PerlJam | nothingmuch: do you know of the book entitled Blondie24 ? |
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| 19:28 | gaal | say, if I want to debug-print all Envs defined, can I? this probably is a nonsensical question from the pov of a pure language, but... |
| 19:35 | * Aankhen`` | goes to sleep. |
| 19:36 | Aankhen`` | G'night. |
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| 19:51 | svnbot6 | r7056 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Create Code's less often (more correctly). Minor other tweaks. |
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| 20:02 | kolibrie | gaal: that's an Haskell question? # about Envs |
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| 21:22 | gaal | kolibrie, yes: a pugs internals question, as i'm trying to debug a misplaced write to an env. |
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| 23:04 | svnbot6 | r7057 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Create Code's somewhat more often (more correctly;). |
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| 23:35 | * geoffb | waves |
| 23:35 | geoffb | Hi everyone |
| 23:35 | * geoffb | has been buried in stabilizing his new system |
| 23:36 | geoffb | What's been going on of late? STATUS and docs/journal are both about a week old . . . . |
| 23:38 | rafl, ping | |
| 23:38 | rafl | geoffb: pong |
| 23:39 | expeditio has left | |
| 23:40 | geoffb | I'm finally taking the time to learn how to use packages.qa.debian.org, because I want to know how long until pugs is in testing . . . but I'm not sure how to tell when something like gmp (needed for ghc6) will go in. |
| 23:40 | When a package will break a whole bunch of packages (I assume for version dependencies), but lots of packages depend on it, what happens? | |
| 23:40 | Logjam? | |
| 23:42 | And from the perspective of a user, what's most likely to get me 'apt-get build-dep pugs' within the next few days? Will just waiting do it, or do I need to a test/unstable hybrid? | |
| 23:43 | rafl | geoffb: afaik they need to be recompiled for the latest gmp version. If that's done they go in all at once. |
| 23:43 | * geoffb | figures it's about time he became a good Debian citizen after all these years . . . starting with testing packages I need, I guess. |
| 23:44 | geoffb | rafl, so it's just an automated thing? Or do the maintainers of all of those packages need to individually change their dependencies and reupload? |
| 23:45 | rafl | geoffb: The maintainers need to upload a new version that get's recompiled against the right version. Or somethimes other people do an NMU (non-maintainer-upload), as it happened for ghc6's gmp transition. |
| 23:47 | geoffb | rafl, OK, that sounds like the answer to my previous question is "Dependency forest is too thick -- probably need to go with a hybrid install" |
| 23:48 | rafl | geoffb: Installing gmp/pugs from sid into etch isn't a big problem. gmp isn't in etch yet because there are some problems on alpha. |
| 23:48 | Nothing that concerns you on i386, powerpc or whatever you're using. | |
| 23:49 | geoffb | Oh, there really are alpha problems -- I had read the little thing that said "alpha gets blamed for everything because it's the first arch in the list", and I assumed that applied. |
| 23:49 | i386, FWIW. | |
| 23:51 | If I go with a hybrid setup, how do I avoid wanting to install one package that happens to have a lot of dependencies, and finding myself suddenly with hundreds of sid packages? | |
| 23:57 | rafl | You could pin to the etch release or only install the packages you want from sid by hand via dpkg (as I do) |
| 23:57 | (for those machines that don't run sid, most of my boxes are unstable) |
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