Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 xinming1983 is now known as xinming_BeiJing
00:02 stevan has joined #perl6
00:02 stevan luqui: re: graffle
00:02 stevan no I think you can use a limited eval version
00:02 stevan I bought it because I use it for work all the time
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00:10 nothingmuch mega luqui++ for fmap redux
00:10 nothingmuch and mega luqui++ for theories
00:11 luqui Arrr, thank ye
00:11 luqui P-)
00:12 nothingmuch Sep 19th is over here =)
00:13 xinming_BeiJing Hi,all, Now I am in Laptop... Really happy for getting the first Laptop in my life.
00:14 luqui not here
00:14 luqui another six hours to go
00:14 xinming_BeiJing hmm, Why doesn't pugs be updated these days please?
00:14 luqui xinming_BeiJing: hmm?
00:14 xinming_BeiJing It seems it's being lasting quite for 2 days...
00:15 * luqui scampers off to gander TaPL
00:16 stevan luqui: more theories stuff? where?
00:16 stevan re: TaPL
00:16 stevan I am still trying to grasp Church Numerals fully,.. that is some really really really cool stuff
00:17 luqui use.perl
00:17 luqui oh, what?
00:17 luqui yeah, functions isomorphic to numbers is pretty sweet
00:17 stevan I mean I "get" it, but my mind see it as being too simple to be true
00:17 * luqui wrote increment/decrement/addition of church numerals in haskell
00:17 luqui and they worked
00:18 luqui (wikipedia's definition of subtraction is wrong though)
00:18 stevan I was gonna write them in perl :)
00:18 luqui er, multiplications
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00:18 luqui haskell is a bit cleaner in that domain, but have at it
00:18 luqui see the lambda_calculus.p6 that was recently checked in
00:18 luqui anyway, re: theory stuff
00:18 evalbot_7043 has joined #perl6
00:19 luqui a role is a single-parameter theory that obeys a certain property
00:19 stevan yes I saw that,.. I wanted to expand it with examples from TaPL
00:19 svnbot6 r7043 | putter++ | PIL-Run - fixed p6_to_a(), and \@INC.  A simple replacement Test.pm is again used for make test and smoke, as the real one currently fails with Perl6-Container/Perl6-Value errors (eg, is(1,1,'x') doesn't work).
00:19 luqui aa soo
00:22 stevan luqui: is there a way to do to the "next method" in C::MM::Pure?
00:22 luqui er, no
00:22 * luqui wonders how he would implement that
00:22 * luqui wonders what the exact semantics are
00:22 * stevan wonders how luqui will too
00:22 luqui stevan, what exact semantics would be useful to you?
00:22 nothingmuch before i nod off i'd like to raise my hat to stevan & luqui for making perl6 much more beautiful on the inside
00:22 stevan next METHOD in multiple dispatch context is supposed to first try the next most appliable mulit-method
00:22 stevan nothingmuch: thanks :)
00:23 * luqui smiles bigly
00:23 luqui thanks
00:23 stevan nothingmuch: are you saying we are ugly on the outside?
00:23 nothingmuch nope
00:23 nothingmuch perl 6 was very much a handwavy fog on the inside
00:23 stevan oh,.. that changed?
00:23 nothingmuch but WRT the metamodel, and theories, and type inferrence, and all that, I think we are making amazing progress
00:24 nothingmuch towards a language that is designed to be much more balanced than anything else
00:24 nothingmuch while reaching for both ends of the spectrum
00:24 nothingmuch strong typing and dynamic typing
00:24 * stevan blushes
00:24 nothingmuch a good metamodel
00:24 nothingmuch good functional support
00:24 nothingmuch sound definitions of internals
00:24 nothingmuch (sound == elegant + practical)
00:25 nothingmuch these things are slowly mounting, and they aren't going away
00:25 nothingmuch and I think that you two are responsible for a lot of it... so thanks =)
00:25 luqui :-D
00:26 luqui and to return the complement, I think I'd like to see nothingmuch in charge of a virtual machine someday
00:26 luqui way cool ideas
00:26 stevan here here
00:26 stevan I second that
00:27 nothingmuch neh
00:27 nothingmuch my current obsession with the compilation process is just a manifestation of another love
00:27 nothingmuch it'll go away soon
00:27 nothingmuch what I really like is to see a good plan come together from end to end
00:27 stevan of course it would be side gig from his real career as a porn star
00:27 luqui haha
00:27 nothingmuch and high level things that are useful and go all the way down to actually working is what is making me interested in VMs
00:28 nothingmuch and yes, there's that
00:28 nothingmuch then I'll go into politics
00:28 luqui is there any other path?
00:28 nothingmuch or start a wikipedia of my own
00:28 stevan nothingmuch for president!!!!!
00:28 nothingmuch (see also bomis.com)
00:28 stevan oh wait,.. we alreayd have that here
00:28 luqui stevan: lol
00:29 * stevan praises local again,.. but this time with symbol tables :)
00:29 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomis
00:29 luqui stevan, you'll be cursing local soon, when it refuses to let you do it to lexicals
00:29 nothingmuch luqui: aye, that always depressed me about local =/
00:29 stevan luqui: I only need it to rebind global
00:30 stevan s
00:30 nothingmuch as local is really scope of execution and my/our is scope of definition, which is why perl6's attitude towards these things is so much better
00:30 stevan $?SELF, $?CLASS, $?ROLE, $?PACKAGE and now "next METHOD"
00:30 stevan I was previously keeping my own stack,.. which was wasteful
00:32 stevan I actually got the local rebinding idea from CLOS
00:32 * luqui 's battery is going
00:32 luqui my mind is going
00:32 stevan part of the 'apply-method' function calls a 'add-function-bindings' which makes lexical binding for method execution
00:32 luqui my mind is going
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00:33 stevan its a very cool approach, so I was happy to see it work in perl too
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00:47 gantrixx anyone here living in arizona?
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00:49 svnbot6 r7044 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
00:49 svnbot6 r7044 | stevan++ | * adding new example test (classic OO shapes)
00:49 svnbot6 r7044 | stevan++ | * making next_METHOD rebound for each dispatch, making it specific to  
00:49 svnbot6 r7044 | stevan++ |   it's execution context, this removed the need for manual mangement
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01:03 * stevan is amazed at how useful local and lvalue subs have proven to be in the metamodel
01:03 stevan I have never found a good for use for them before this :)
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01:07 svnbot6 r7045 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
01:07 svnbot6 r7045 | stevan++ | * changing opaque_instance_attrs($) into opaque_instance_attr($$) so that it will
01:07 svnbot6 r7045 | stevan++ |   fetch the label for you, making the opaque instance structure further opaque and
01:07 svnbot6 r7045 | stevan++ |   making way for some cool things with Roles (more on that later)
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01:19 svnbot6 r7046 | putter++ | PIL/Run/PrimX.pm: a couple of new primitives, a bit of cleanup.
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04:02 svnbot6 r7047 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/Test.pm: more Test subs.  And :todo is now tolerated (but doesn't actually work), which unfortunately required...
04:02 svnbot6 r7047 | putter++ | perl5/Perl6-Value/lib/Perl6/Code.pm: short-circuited check_params().  It now always returns 1.  This is a work-around hack to let simple Test almost work, despite sub f(*%h){};f() currently failing.
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04:20 svnbot6 r7048 | gaal++ | fatal.pm in Prelude. Exposes a bug in %*INC not being checked
04:20 svnbot6 r7048 | gaal++ | correctly before 'use'. It's interesting to see whether this
04:20 svnbot6 r7048 | gaal++ | module works correctly (once lexical pragmas do) since it does
04:20 svnbot6 r7048 | gaal++ | things that need to work in different calling contexts.
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05:08 gaal bug report: "pugs" on win32 doesn't work, because that OS doesn't have unix's automatic interpreted binary mechanism.
05:08 svnbot6 r7049 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/P5Runtime/PrimP6.pm: statement_control:for now works with blocks of both arity 1 and 2.  But not > 2 (for no good reason).
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05:29 Detonite Good morning...
05:33 dduncan good evening
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05:37 Detonite ?eval 5
05:37 evalbot_7049 5
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05:40 revdiablo ?eval 5**5
05:40 evalbot_7049 3125
05:44 nothingmuch morning
05:44 Detonite Morning
05:52 Detonite ?eval ?
05:52 evalbot_7049 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting term
05:53 putter status report: perl5 backend PIL-Run: the current bottleneck is Perl6-Value and Perl6-Container.  Repair of Code.pm's support for slurpy array arguments is perhaps the most pressing.  But there is a lot which is not working.  PIL-Run's current role is to exercise metamodel and Perl6-Value/Container objects.  MM1 is working fine for now.  But the objects need work.  Fyi.
05:54 zamolxes has left
05:58 putter a recent pilrun smoke was 41%.  if the test :todo's could be slurped and "# TODO"'ed, it would be over 50%.
05:59 putter good night &
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06:22 gaal has left "goodbye everyone, see again you soon I hope!"
06:23 nothingmuch has left "work &"
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06:32 svnbot6 r7050 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : merge in the latest changes made to the Perl 5 version
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06:38 svnbot6 r7051 | putter++ | perl5/PIL-Run/lib6/Test.pm: Now handles :todo's.  A temporary kludge - when argument passing works better, this will break.  And can then be replaced. (ie, use slurpy hash parameters, which currently don't exist/work)
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07:21 svnbot6 r7052 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Removed obsolete TODO.  Created README with usage hints.
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07:21 * Detonite welcomes evalbot_7052
07:22 nothingmuch 8192 would be nice
07:22 nothingmuch it's a big number
07:23 webmind- and a round number
07:23 Detonite Aye, quite round.
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08:15 svnbot6 r7053 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Added graphs() and codes().  string/length.t now mostly passes.
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09:27 svnbot6 r7054 | putter++ | PIL/Run/EvalX.pm: improved temp()
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09:34 nothingmuch holy crap
09:34 nothingmuch i have C
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09:36 GeJ nothingmuch: you have C? is it that bad? C is less fun than Perl6 for sure, but it's not _that_ bad, is it?
09:36 nothingmuch i mean Blondie is compiling to C
09:37 GeJ sounds sweet...
09:37 nothingmuch shyte
09:37 nothingmuch i can't Inline::C it though
09:37 nothingmuch since my types conflict with it
09:39 * nothingmuch does some yucky search and replace
09:40 nothingmuch WOOT!
09:40 ods15 .....
09:40 nothingmuch IT FUCKING WORKS! IT REALLY REALLY WORKS
09:40 ods15 if it's C, KEEP IT FRIGGIN C
09:40 ods15 C is good
09:41 GeJ I think he means "IT'S ALIVE! ALIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!!"
09:41 * Detonite_ claps
09:41 ods15 bleh
09:41 * ods15 bleh's at all
09:41 GeJ nm++
09:41 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "say(42) in C" (32 lines, 742B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13215
09:41 ods15 most of this channel seems to like perl6 more than C :/
09:42 nothingmuch ods15: duh
09:42 nothingmuch C is a headache
09:42 ods15 C is friggin awesom
09:42 nothingmuch you shouldn't write in C, you should compile to it ;-)
09:42 ods15 typedef int IV; typedef FILE * GV; typedef char * PV;
09:42 ods15 wtf???
09:42 Detonite_ Feh. Pure binary is the only truth.
09:42 nothingmuch ods15: quick hack to match to Cification of perl values
09:43 nothingmuch in perl an IV is an SV that represents an integer
09:43 nothingmuch it's really a struct
09:43 nothingmuch since I'm doing static typing, i'm just using a real int instead
09:43 nothingmuch PV is pointer to string
09:43 nothingmuch GV is filehandle
09:43 ods15 Detonite_: i've done a bit of that actually
09:43 nothingmuch you keep "wtf???"ing at stuff like we're idiot
09:44 nothingmuch s
09:44 ods15 it was quite fun
09:44 ods15 nothingmuch: no, it just means wtf
09:44 nothingmuch well, instead of saying "what the fuck" as if it's insane, you can say "please explain"
09:44 ods15 anyway, lol, that's some hilarious C code :)
09:44 nothingmuch why is it hilarious?
09:44 ods15 the "leaks" :)
09:45 nothingmuch fuck it, i'm not doing garbage collection
09:45 ods15 also, sizeof(char) is just funny :)
09:45 nothingmuch ods15: you program C and yyou think that's funny?
09:45 nothingmuch you are aware that char is not always 8 bits, right?
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09:46 ods15 rofl, no, it IS, unless you're doing f'ed up typedefs/defines
09:47 nothingmuch ods15: no, it ISN'T
09:47 ods15 it is garunteed by C standard that char is always 8 bits
09:47 nothingmuch no, that's what it's guaranteed as the usable space
09:47 nothingmuch it may be aligned to anything else
09:47 QtPlatypus nothingmuch: Can't you use a poblically accessable garbage collector.
09:47 nothingmuch in crays it's 256 values, but takes up 64 bits
09:47 nothingmuch since crays can only address by memory words and not bytes
09:48 nothingmuch QtPlatypus: i don't know of any, i'm not a C coder
09:48 nothingmuch w
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09:48 QtPlatypus publically.
09:49 nothingmuch e.g. http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Hans_Boehm/gc/ ?
09:49 QtPlatypus Exactly
09:51 pjcj as I recall sizeof(char) is defined as 1 in the C standard
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09:52 nothingmuch pjcj: even WRT allocation?
09:52 nothingmuch well, whatever... the compiler will optimize that away
09:52 nothingmuch i was always told never to hard code magic numbers anyway
09:53 nothingmuch my well behaved alter ego, which was telling me that all along, kicks in when coding in unfamiliar territories
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09:54 pjcj well, the sizeof a struct may not equal the sum of the sizeof its members, but sizeof(char) will always be 1
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10:13 clkao peskky padding
10:17 pjcj pwd
10:17 pjcj bah
10:45 ods15 12:47:23 <@ods15> ahem, sizeof(char) is ALWAYS 1, right?
10:45 ods15 12:51:22 <@dalias> yes
10:45 ods15 12:52:12 <@iive> ods15, no
10:45 ods15 12:52:16 <@iive> it is at least 1
10:45 ods15 12:52:24 <@dalias> iive, stfu and rtfm
10:45 ods15 12:52:30 <@dalias> sizeof(char) is 1 by definition
10:45 ods15 12:52:50 <@dalias> read the c standard or c.l.c faq if you don't believe me
10:45 ods15 pjcj: yup
10:46 ods15 and struct padding is a totally different thing
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11:02 pjcj of course, that doesn't mean 1 char is necessarily exactly 8 bits ...
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11:31 nothingmuch me leaves sizeof(char)
11:31 nothingmuch don't feel like editing the file, because it really doesn't matter, and it helps me focus to see hints like that =)
11:32 nothingmuch it allows me to reduce mental stack overflows when reading code i'm not 100% comfortable with
11:33 nothingmuch oh god... not another bug in setup
11:33 nothingmuch =(
11:33 * nothingmuch does not like maintaining code which is other people's fault
11:33 nothingmuch i'm not sure whether I want to minimize my interaction with the code, and fix things trivially, or whether I should actually work to improve it's robustness
11:33 nothingmuch so that I get less bugs in the future
11:35 pjcj the maintenance programmer's dilemma
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12:01 QtPlatypus nothingmuch: I suggest unit tests to solve that problem.
12:01 nothingmuch QtPlatypus: this is absolutely not unit testable
12:02 QtPlatypus THen you can you do robustness work without fear of introducing more bugs.
12:02 nothingmuch just refactoring it from one giant heap into code that can actually be called by unit tests is going to take me forever
12:02 nothingmuch and the reason I don't want to do robustness work is because I don't want to waste time ;-)
12:03 nothingmuch the code parts (Qt UI, configuration management, wizardly behavior, installation logic, and probing) are about as coupled as it gets
12:03 nothingmuch it's about 6000 lines
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12:03 QtPlatypus Ouch
12:03 nothingmuch i think 3000 or so are dead
12:03 nothingmuch it's filled with #ifdefs in places like parameter arguments
12:03 nothingmuch e.g.
12:04 nothingmuch int do_this ( foo param,
12:04 nothingmuch #ifdef SOMEDDEF
12:04 nothingmuch bar another,
12:04 nothingmuch #endif
12:04 nothingmuch );
12:04 nothingmuch and then the calls to do_this also look like that
12:04 nothingmuch it's OOP, but doesn't really know it
12:04 GeJ ugly... :(
12:04 nothingmuch things that should be instance data are passed around as parameters
12:04 nothingmuch even the naming thing is all bad
12:05 nothingmuch Config::setConfig or something like that does the full installation ;-)
12:05 nothingmuch and since block comments for non working features are pretty much 50% of the code, it's completely unreadable too
12:06 nothingmuch i resorted to using doxygen's function call graphs, so that could actually understand which code happens when and what parts of it are relevant
12:06 nothingmuch as I see it the code base has no value. I could reimplement all the features with Verby in about 2-3 days
12:06 nothingmuch then I can learn perl's Qt bindings and write a GUI in about 2 weeks
12:06 nothingmuch or I could port Verby to C++ in slightly less, and then do Qt in C++ for another 2 weeks or so
12:07 nothingmuch but i don't want to, it's not important enough
12:19 * nothingmuch wwraps up his brain for the 40th time today
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12:40 kolibrie ?eval $pattern = rx /(5)/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', ');
12:40 evalbot_7054 Error: Undeclared variable: "$pattern"
12:40 kolibrie ?eval my $pattern = rx /(5)/; say
12:40 evalbot_7054 bool::true
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12:41 kolibrie ?eval my $pattern = rx /(5)/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', ');
12:41 evalbot_7054 1234, 5, 6789 bool::true
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12:41 kolibrie ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', ');
12:41 evalbot_7055 has joined #perl6
12:41 kolibrie ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split($pattern).join(', ');
12:41 evalbot_7055 1234, 6789 bool::true
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12:42 kolibrie ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split(rx /($pattern)/).join(', ');
12:42 evalbot_7055 123456789 bool::true
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12:42 nothingmuch kolibrie: this behavior has changed in P6, i think
12:42 nothingmuch see S04
12:43 kolibrie so how do I capture?
12:43 nothingmuch captures are the same
12:43 nothingmuch it's pattern interpolation that changed
12:43 nothingmuch ?eval /5/
12:43 evalbot_7055 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
12:43 nothingmuch ?eval rx/5/
12:43 evalbot_7055 {rule}
12:43 nothingmuch ?eval ~ rx/5/
12:43 evalbot_7055 '<Pugs::Internals::VRule>'
12:43 nothingmuch i think your pattern is trying to match that string inside 123456789
12:44 nothingmuch s05, not s04... sorry
12:44 kolibrie so if I have a non-capturing rule
12:44 kolibrie how do I pass it to split in such a way that it is captured?
12:45 nothingmuch http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/​design/syn/S05.html#Variable_(non-)interpolation
12:46 nothingmuch ?eval my $pattern = rx /5/; say '123456789'.split(rx /(<$pattern>)/).join(', ');
12:46 evalbot_7055 *** Cannot parse PGE: :w::(<$pattern>) *** Error: PGE Parse error: invalid subrule name at offset 6 (found <<$>>)   123456789 bool::true
12:46 svnbot6 r7055 | nothingmuch++ | Blondie:
12:46 svnbot6 r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - minimal compilation to C
12:46 svnbot6 r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - no symbolic unification of duplicate nodes (necessary for recursion)
12:46 svnbot6 r7055 | nothingmuch++ | - type safety issues need to be resolved for further progress
12:46 nothingmuch =)
12:46 scook0 nothingmuch++ # asynchronous list-forcing
12:46 nothingmuch i think that's how it'll work, but it's obviously not there yet
12:47 scook0 I was going to reply to your thread, but didn't get around to it... :(
12:47 * nothingmuch would like feedback, so do get around to it
12:47 nothingmuch ==)
12:47 nothingmuch thanks
12:47 scook0 just to point out that all you need is &async_force, and everything else can be considered a shorthand for that
12:48 nothingmuch ah... ofcourse =)
12:48 scook0 but I can see gather:async being clearer in many cases
12:48 kolibrie nothingmuch: that could be the syntax, S05 skips that example
12:49 nothingmuch kolibrie: around the middle of "Extensible meta syntax"
12:49 nothingmuch A leading $ indicates an indirect rule. The variable must contain either a hard reference to a rule, or a string containing the rule.
12:49 kolibrie ah yes, that makes sense now
12:49 nothingmuch ingy: ping
12:50 kolibrie so, can that be fixed in pugs, or is that a pge thing?
12:50 nothingmuch i think pge doesn't support it yet, and after that'll make it in it's pge/pugs integration
12:50 * nothingmuch finally finished doing this: http://search.cpan.org/~ingy/Inlin​e-0.44/C/C-Cookbook.pod#Evaling_C
12:51 * nothingmuch proudly claims to have "totally lost my marbles"
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14:02 Limbic_Region I just did a make clean, svn up, perl Makefile.PL, make, pugs -V for the first time in oh, about a month - anyone know why it says r6656?
14:04 PerlJam Limbic_Region: I just did the same thing and I got r7055
14:06 Limbic_Region this is odd then cause when I svn up I am at the proper rev level
14:06 vel_ has joined #perl6
14:06 Limbic_Region *shrug*
14:07 PerlJam perhaps you need to make clean or something
14:07 scook0 Limbic_Region: simple things: did you check that the build succeeded, and that you're running the right binary?
14:07 Limbic_Region see step 1 in my list above PerlJam
14:07 Limbic_Region scook0 - yep and yep
14:08 Limbic_Region not a big deal - just wanted to play around with some higher order p5 code in p6 and see how much/little it changed
14:08 cognominal has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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14:08 PerlJam Limbic_Region: maybe you need to "make realclean" or "make distclean" or whatever the bleachy version of clean is.
14:09 Khisanth realdistclean! :P
14:09 Limbic_Region well - considering this box only has 256MB of ram and I can't even use all of it - I will wait until tonight to have another go at it
14:11 Limbic_Region so has anyone been building any new/exciting projects with Pugs lately?
14:11 * Limbic_Region hasn't checked the examples directory since the whole ?? :: --> ?? !! change
14:13 Khisanth EH?!
14:13 * Khisanth goes to check summary
14:14 Limbic_Region you mean you weren't aware of the the ?? :: to ?? !! change?
14:14 Limbic_Region that wasn't in this week's summary but the previous
14:14 Limbic_Region which I believe was for 3 weeks
14:14 Limbic_Region IIRC
14:14 Khisanth hey autrijus is on perl.com :)
14:15 Limbic_Region yeah - that article is a couple weeks old too
14:15 Limbic_Region they apparently didn't post a new article as typically done on Thursday evenings
14:18 Khisanth I haven't checked perl.com in a while so it's new to me!
14:20 Khisanth odd are posts in google groups newest > oldest from top to bottom?
14:20 * Limbic_Region checks more regularly now that he has gotten paid for writing an article published on perl.com
14:20 vel_ has left
14:20 Limbic_Region dunno - I let gmail do that for me
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16:04 nothingmuch any news from autrijus?
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16:45 nothingmuch i have a problem
16:45 nothingmuch this problem happens from time to time
16:45 nothingmuch if ($condition) { pre };
16:45 nothingmuch unconditional middle;
16:46 nothingmuch if ($condition) { post }
16:46 nothingmuch i hate repeating conditional tests
16:46 nothingmuch i hate repeating unconditional middle
16:46 nothingmuch (even if it's just a single call)
16:46 nothingmuch e.g. if ($condition) { pre; $self->foo; post } else { $self->foo }
16:47 nothingmuch can anyone think of a solution?
16:47 nothingmuch higher order functions are ofcourse an option:
16:47 nothingmuch my $uncond = sub { $self->foo };
16:48 nothingmuch optional_wrapper($condition, sub { pre }, $uncond, sub { post });
16:48 nothingmuch this can be beautified with prototypes, but it's still rather clunky
16:59 Odin-LAP has joined #perl6
17:03 nothingmuch method mk_symbol ($node) {
17:04 nothingmuch    state %allocated will autotovivify {
17:04 nothingmuch        my $type = $node.struct_equiv.type;
17:04 ods15 nothingmuch: bah, there's not much you can do about "split" conditional
17:04 ods15 not much to do about it :/
17:05 nothingmuch        join("_", $type, ++%.counters{$type});
17:05 nothingmuch }
17:05 ods15 i hate it too
17:05 nothingmuch $allocated{$node};
17:05 nothingmuch }
17:05 dduncan has joined #perl6
17:05 nothingmuch ods15: there's not much. you can do right now
17:05 nothingmuch but conceptually the logic flow is intuitive:
17:06 nothingmuch pair up some code blocks
17:06 nothingmuch and attach them to the same conditional
17:06 ods15 ?
17:06 nothingmuch i'm asking for new syntax ideas
17:06 nothingmuch something prettier than:
17:06 nothingmuch my $cond = <test>;
17:06 nothingmuch if $cond { pre }
17:06 nothingmuch mid
17:06 nothingmuch if $cond { post }
17:06 ods15 if the conditional is intense i sometimes use a condition variable with a nive name :)
17:07 ods15 nice* name
17:07 nothingmuch that's not splitting it up
17:07 nothingmuch here is an idea:
17:07 nothingmuch label: if ($condition) { pre }
17:07 nothingmuch mid
17:07 nothingmuch label: { post }
17:08 nothingmuch where label is the same
17:08 nothingmuch it's much more "static" than making a new variable
17:08 ods15 i dont like it
17:08 Aankhen`` if ($condition) { pre; PAUSE { middle; }; post; }
17:08 Aankhen`` Seems strange when I write it out.
17:08 nothingmuch Aankhen``: what I don't like about that is cuddling
17:08 Aankhen`` Basically, I'm thinking of "pausing" the condition.
17:08 nothingmuch the nested block is under the if () { }
17:08 nothingmuch so it's unintuitive to read it
17:09 Aankhen`` Yeah, I know, I don't like it either; just throwing out ideas./
17:09 nothingmuch but I wanted something like that
17:09 nothingmuch hmm
17:09 Aankhen`` s|/||
17:09 nothingmuch maybe just like if else:
17:09 ods15 nothingmuch: find some other kind of parenthesis and reverse direction it
17:09 nothingmuch if ($cond) {
17:09 nothingmuch } pause {
17:09 nothingmuch mid
17:09 nothingmuch } cont {
17:09 nothingmuch }
17:09 nothingmuch if ($condition) {
17:09 nothingmuch } always {
17:09 ods15 anyway, i say give it up
17:09 nothingmuch } conditional {
17:09 nothingmuch }
17:09 nothingmuch ods15: what do those comments help
17:09 Aankhen`` Hmm.
17:10 nothingmuch if you have critique, share it
17:10 ods15 this feature accomplishes nothing imo, it's not more readable
17:10 nothingmuch but there's no need to pessimize pointlessly
17:10 Aankhen`` if ($condition) { ... } but always({ ... })
17:10 Aankhen`` Ahh, that reads better than it functions. :-P
17:10 ods15 arno, because you need it in the middle
17:10 nothingmuch Aankhen``: i'm reminded of while (...) { } contineu { }
17:10 ods15 heh
17:10 nothingmuch s/eu/ue/
17:11 ods15 nothingmuch: well, the flaws are obvious :/ i'm thinking of solutions right now, and coming up empty
17:11 Aankhen`` Me too, but it seems a little complicated.
17:11 Aankhen`` (the if, always, conditional)
17:11 nothingmuch ods15: so please avoid pointless bashing
17:11 Aankhen`` `if ($condition) { ... } pause { ... } resume { ... }` might make more sense there, BTW.
17:11 nothingmuch hmm, i like that
17:12 Aankhen`` Just a little lengthy...
17:12 nothingmuch i think we need to s/pause/$thesaurus.lookup("always").pick/;
17:12 Aankhen`` Indeed.
17:13 ods15 "default" heh no
17:13 Aankhen`` All of them are very lengthy...
17:13 nothingmuch http://thesaurus.reference.​com/search?q=unconditional
17:13 ods15 i'm thinking switch statement :)
17:13 nothingmuch ods15: we have that too, but it doesn't apply
17:13 nothingmuch lack of break in C can only move it downwards
17:13 nothingmuch unless you add a goto or something
17:13 ods15 i wish switch supported this
17:14 Aankhen`` Heh, "surely"...
17:14 ods15 switch { case a: a_code; case b: b_code; case c: c_code; default: common code; }
17:14 nothingmuch i think maybe 'uncond' instead of always/pause
17:14 ods15 as in, each runs for it's case, and one that runs for several cases :/
17:14 ods15 lol, "dead"
17:15 Aankhen`` ods15: given ($foo) { when 1 { ... }; when 2 { ... }; when 3 { ... }; common_code(); }
17:15 Aankhen`` That's the Perl 6 version, IIRC.
17:15 ods15 Aankhen``: not wquit'e though
17:15 ods15 quite*
17:15 ods15 i want even more
17:15 nothingmuch ods15: when in perl 6 is pretty cool
17:15 nothingmuch read in s04 it hink
17:15 ods15 switch { case a: a_code; case b: b_code; case c: c_code; abc_code; break; e_code: d_code: not_abc; }
17:16 nothingmuch it's actually much simpler than it looks
17:16 ods15 get what i meant
17:16 saorge has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
17:16 Aankhen`` ods15: Yes; too lazy to figure it out in P6 right now though.
17:16 Aankhen`` nothingmuch: "uncond".chars == "always".chars
17:16 ods15 the 'common' code i can just put outside the switch if it was really common :)
17:17 nothingmuch Aankhen``: so you want it shorter?
17:17 Aankhen`` nothingmuch: Yes.
17:17 nothingmuch hmm
17:17 Aankhen`` I keep thinking of "yet".
17:17 nothingmuch errm
17:17 nothingmuch let's chuck this at p6l
17:17 Aankhen`` if ($cond) { ... } yet { ... } resume { ... }
17:17 Aankhen`` Mmm, TBH, it's not something which I'm dead set on.  I can do without it.  I'm just trying to give you suggestions. :-)
17:18 nothingmuch fairy nuff
17:18 Aankhen`` Then again, if you do p6l it, I'll back you up: it should be fun. =)
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17:20 Aankhen`` The most natural -- though sadly lengthy -- syntax would be: if ($cond) { ... } regardless { ... } again { ... }
17:20 xinming_Beijing has joined #perl6
17:20 Aankhen`` s/again/conditionally/
17:20 nothingmuch http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=regardless
17:21 Aankhen`` Hehe... if ($cond) { ... } anyhow { ... } but_conditionally { ... }
17:21 Aankhen`` "but" is already taken, sadly.
17:22 Aankhen`` It's the only candidate.  The others are too lengthy.
17:22 nothingmuch i don't like 'but' for this... it's too general
17:22 nothingmuch i don't mind long either... else and elsif are about as long as 'uncond'
17:22 Aankhen`` I'm not suggesting we use it, just lamenting the unfortunate state of affairs.
17:22 nothingmuch not to mention 'else if' which i really would prefer over 'elsif'
17:23 penk has joined #perl6
17:23 nothingmuch i find typing the extra chars easier than remembering an arbitrary contraction
17:23 Aankhen`` Dude, I don't mind long stuff either, but if we propose this, I'm quite certain people will keep a beady eye on the length.
17:23 nothingmuch phooey for them
17:23 nothingmuch we'll see what happens ;-)
17:23 Aankhen`` Heh.
17:24 Aankhen`` Then `uncond` seems to be a good choice.
17:24 Aankhen`` if ($cond) { ... } uncond { ... } resume { ... }
17:24 nothingmuch i don't like resume... here's why:
17:24 nothingmuch uncond always happens
17:25 nothingmuch if () { ... } happens 50% of the time, you would guess
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17:25 nothingmuch so it seems to mee like resume is continuing the uncond for no appearant reason
17:25 Aankhen`` Hmm, I see.
17:26 nothingmuch recond sucks ;-)
17:26 Aankhen`` I was thinking of in terms of this: `uncond` "suspends the conditionality of the following statements", whereas `resume` resumes the "conditionality".
17:26 nothingmuch is there a word for predicated maybe?
17:26 nothingmuch yes, that makes sense, but from an execution perspective, not so much a linguistic one, i think
17:26 Aankhen`` Yeah, you're right.
17:27 nothingmuch but let's use that for now
17:27 Aankhen`` What about `conditionally`, since length isn't a factor?
17:27 nothingmuch that's too much
17:27 nothingmuch ;-)
17:27 Aankhen`` Or, wait... just `cond`?
17:27 nothingmuch yes, let's use that
17:28 Aankhen`` if ($cond) { may_happen(); } uncond { always_happens(); } cond { may_happen_too(); }
17:32 Aankhen`` Yay.  Only 8 hours to go for the first season of Beast Wars to finish downloading.
17:33 * nothingmuch tries hard to finish the next big step in C compilation tonight
17:33 Aankhen`` C compilation?
17:34 nothingmuch Blondie compiles to C
17:34 Aankhen`` Blondie?
17:34 nothingmuch ah
17:34 Aankhen`` Sorry, I appear to be out of the loop.
17:34 nothingmuch Blondie is an intermediate language AST
17:34 Aankhen`` I see.
17:35 dduncan is there a Dagwood module to go with it?
17:37 * Aankhen`` wanders off to play Condition Zero.
17:39 Aankhen`` Oh great, powercut.  BBL.
17:39 * Aankhen`` hugs his UPS.
17:40 nothingmuch that i'm playing around with
17:40 nothingmuch which is supposed to be a preview of the Perl 6 compilation pipeline
17:40 nothingmuch so far it has a perl backend and a C backend that successfully share a prelude
17:40 nothingmuch and simply replace the parts of the prelude that is easiest for them to replace
17:40 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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17:40 nothingmuch bah, cable modem died
17:40 nothingmuch it has type inferrencing
17:40 nothingmuch which is optional for the perl runtime, but required for C compilation
17:40 nothingmuch (compilation goes down to bare metal types - no boxing whatsoever)
17:41 nothingmuch dduncan: que es dagwood?
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17:46 nothingmuch gaal: ?!
17:46 gaal aloha!
17:47 gaal the army proves its stupidity yet again!
17:47 gaal they canceled the mission i was called for, but somebody forgot to send out notices
17:47 nothingmuch heh
17:48 gaal so, that was a day wasted
17:48 gaal now you know where your tax shekels are going
17:48 expeditio has joined #perl6
17:49 gaal ooh, c!
17:50 gaal what be "prel", nm?
17:50 nothingmuch builtin prelude replacement
17:51 nothingmuch perhaps it should be s/prel/builtin/
17:51 gaal "native"?
17:51 nothingmuch http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/perl5/Bl​ondie/lib/Blondie/Backend/C/Builtins.pm
17:51 nothingmuch sub prelude {
17:51 gaal anyway, i need a nice long bath
17:52 gaal or like the brits say when speaking of Jane Austen's favorite town, baaaaaath
17:52 nothingmuch heh
17:52 gaal very nice to see you :-)
17:52 gaal but, later
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17:57 nothingmuch oops
17:57 nothingmuch ciao
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18:21 dduncan nothingmuch, there is a well known newspaper comic strip called 'Dagwood', which is about a couple whose names are 'Dagwood' and 'Blondie'
18:22 dduncan it sounded like you were naming your module after the wife
18:22 nothingmuch oh
18:22 nothingmuch nop
18:22 nothingmuch e
18:22 dduncan so I wondered if there was one named after the husband too
18:22 nothingmuch abraxxa in #catalyst brought it up
18:22 nothingmuch i asked for a name for a dumb intermediate language
18:22 nothingmuch i thought of calling it DIL
18:22 dduncan how about Dunce?
18:23 nothingmuch too late
18:23 nothingmuch but that is acctually a pretty nice name
18:23 nothingmuch too bad I didn't ask you earlier ;-)
18:24 dduncan now, I haven't RTFM yet, but what is Blondie to be used for ... or is it just a fun project?
18:24 nothingmuch it's an experiment
18:24 nothingmuch i'm trying out the compilation scheme I raised to p6l with a smaller language
18:24 nothingmuch i'm trying to write multiple backends that reuse as much code as possible
18:24 dduncan that's all I need to know
18:24 nothingmuch but without limiting the possibility of optimizing any backend given enough time
18:58 PerlJam nothingmuch: do you know of the book entitled Blondie24 ?
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19:28 gaal say, if I want to debug-print all Envs defined, can I? this probably is a nonsensical question from the pov of a pure language, but...
19:35 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
19:36 Aankhen`` G'night.
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19:51 svnbot6 r7056 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Create Code's less often (more correctly).  Minor other tweaks.
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20:02 kolibrie gaal: that's an Haskell question? # about Envs
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21:22 gaal kolibrie, yes: a pugs internals question, as i'm trying to debug a misplaced write to an env.
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23:04 svnbot6 r7057 | putter++ | PIL-Run - Create Code's somewhat more often (more correctly;).
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23:35 * geoffb waves
23:35 geoffb Hi everyone
23:35 * geoffb has been buried in stabilizing his new system
23:36 geoffb What's been going on of late?  STATUS and docs/journal are both about a week old . . . .
23:38 geoffb rafl, ping
23:38 rafl geoffb: pong
23:39 expeditio has left
23:40 geoffb I'm finally taking the time to learn how to use packages.qa.debian.org, because I want to know how long until pugs is in testing . . . but I'm not sure how to tell when something like gmp (needed for ghc6) will go in.
23:40 geoffb When a package will break a whole bunch of packages (I assume for version dependencies), but lots of packages depend on it, what happens?
23:40 geoffb Logjam?
23:42 geoffb And from the perspective of a user, what's most likely to get me 'apt-get build-dep pugs' within the next few days?  Will just waiting do it, or do I need to a test/unstable hybrid?
23:43 rafl geoffb: afaik they need to be recompiled for the latest gmp version. If that's done they go in all at once.
23:43 * geoffb figures it's about time he became a good Debian citizen after all these years . . . starting with testing packages I need, I guess.
23:44 geoffb rafl, so it's just an automated thing?  Or do the maintainers of all of those packages need to individually change their dependencies and reupload?
23:45 rafl geoffb: The maintainers need to upload a new version that get's recompiled against the right version. Or somethimes other people do an NMU (non-maintainer-upload), as it happened for ghc6's gmp transition.
23:47 geoffb rafl, OK, that sounds like the answer to my previous question is "Dependency forest is too thick -- probably need to go with a hybrid install"
23:48 rafl geoffb: Installing gmp/pugs from sid into etch isn't a big problem. gmp isn't in etch yet because there are some problems on alpha.
23:48 rafl Nothing that concerns you on i386, powerpc or whatever you're using.
23:49 geoffb Oh, there really are alpha problems -- I had read the little thing that said "alpha gets blamed for everything because it's the first arch in the list", and I assumed that applied.
23:49 geoffb i386, FWIW.
23:51 geoffb If I go with a hybrid setup, how do I avoid wanting to install one package that happens to have a lot of dependencies, and finding myself suddenly with hundreds of sid packages?
23:57 rafl You could pin to the etch release or only install the packages you want from sid by hand via dpkg (as I do)
23:57 rafl (for those machines that don't run sid, most of my boxes are unstable)

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