Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-23

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04:30 QtPlatypus Is Page 7  of the state of the onion supposed to be the same as page one?
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05:13 geoffb netflix++ # Never stand for another cliffhanger
05:24 geoffb chocolate++ # While I'm giving out karma . . . .
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06:18 autrijus rehi
06:18 autrijus this Takahashi method is giving me much trouble
06:18 geoffb hi, autrijus
06:19 autrijus turns out it really wants to be boil down to six 5-minute chunks
06:19 autrijus each only deliver _one_ message
06:19 autrijus sofar:
06:19 autrijus Perl is ergonomic / CPAN is versatile
06:19 autrijus Perl 6 is powerful / Pugs is expansive
06:19 autrijus People are enjoyable / Plans are for real
06:19 autrijus not sure "enjoyable" is the right word
06:19 autrijus anyway, the idea is to style each of 6 as a lightning talk
06:20 obra "Takahashi method"?
06:20 autrijus with a few (3-5) points each to support it
06:20 autrijus obra: http://www.rubycolor.org/taka​hashi/thinkinrails/img0.html
06:20 autrijus also the cpan module
06:20 dduncan what is a Takahashi method?
06:20 autrijus Acme::Takahashi::Method
06:20 dduncan the only Takahashi I know is a famous manga artist
06:21 obra It's a pity there isn't a good english-language writeup ;)
06:22 autrijus obra: "big letters zoomed to extreme"
06:22 autrijus each slide only carry max 1 sentence
06:22 dduncan yes indeed
06:22 autrijus ideal for brainwashing
06:22 obra Got It
06:22 obra Makes sense.
06:23 obra Live demos are better.
06:23 dduncan as I recall, aren't there a good half million Chinese characters, where each is a sentence of its own, or a place name?
06:23 autrijus not much chance for 30min talk sadly
06:23 obra Japanese examples don't teach westerners well.
06:23 autrijus dduncan: no, each is a "word"
06:23 dduncan yes
06:23 autrijus problem with live demo is it's bound to fail ;)
06:24 dduncan how un-fortunate
06:24 obra :P
06:25 * geoffb 's favorite case of that (not witnessed in person, sadly): Apparently Oracle, when trying to explain how using network computers tied back to massive backend servers over the net would result in vastly higher uptime than distributed PCs, did a live demo -- in which the network failed, killing all the NCs
06:27 dduncan so its not just Bill Gates demos that have spectacular failures
06:27 dduncan or at least that one with a hardware demo
06:27 obra Demos Fail
06:28 dduncan yes indeed
06:28 obra Compilers Don't.
06:28 obra Catchphrases stick in your mind.
06:28 dduncan which is why, a demoer has "another plan"
06:28 geoffb I used to work with Hasso Plattner, the programmer amongst the founders of SAP -- he was famous for walking into any room with a cool new thing and making it fail by his mere presence.  He didn't even hold it against the engineers -- he knew it was his fault.
06:28 obra Takahashi Method is difficult.
06:29 gaal morning.
06:29 dduncan morning
06:29 geoffb (That was not an attempted name-drop, BTW, just to point out that seemingly all obscenely rich founders of software companies have that destructive aura thing going_
06:30 geoffb morning, gaal, dduncan
06:30 dduncan I hope that doesn't happen to me
06:30 QtPlatypus geoffb: Its like the oppisite of the enigear effect.  Intermitent faults self rectifiy in the presence of the people who know how to fix them.
06:30 geoffb NODNODNOD
06:30 geoffb Amazing how that works
06:31 QtPlatypus And as soon as they are off sight it goes back to not working.
06:31 gaal seen iblech
06:32 geoffb I get that whenever I finally decide go to the doctor for something low-level but annoying
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06:32 obra autrijus: I feel like "people are enjoyable" should become "people are the audience"
06:32 geoffb gaal, iblech is committing but not online of late, sadly
06:32 obra "coding is about people"
06:33 geoffb If he's young enough, it may be school year desires to get sleep and finish homework . . . .
06:33 dduncan and as one of my college instructors often said, "assembly is fun"
06:33 autrijus obra: yes, that's close, but I want one word
06:33 geoffb dduncan, oh yeah
06:33 gaal geoffb: right, forgot that for a bit
06:34 obra people are key? it's about people? e
06:34 autrijus People are our raison d’être ?
06:34 obra what's the talk part actually saying?
06:35 autrijus it's introducing the social aspects.
06:35 autrijus @Larry, lambdacamels, community dynamics
06:35 gaal we X for people?
06:35 geoffb People are paramount?
06:35 obra code is speech / pugs is a discussion ?
06:35 gaal Perl is for People?
06:36 geoffb Perl: Consensual Insanity
06:36 autrijus Perl 6 is powerful
06:36 autrijus Pugs is expansive
06:36 autrijus People are insane
06:36 autrijus Plans are for real
06:36 autrijus I like this
06:37 obra s/insane/crazy/?
06:37 autrijus sure
06:37 dduncan perl-people
06:37 obra since crazy can have more positive aspects.
06:37 gaal bizarre?
06:37 obra what do you mean by "expanisve"?
06:37 autrijus is there someting crazier than crazy?
06:37 geoffb Along which axis?
06:37 obra zany? implies whimsy.
06:37 dduncan yes, sanity
06:38 gaal psychotic, but we don't wanna go there i think.
06:38 geoffb LOL
06:38 autrijus obra: "open, liberal, accepting, multiple fronts, anarchistic, rich"
06:38 geoffb .oO(be vewwy vewwy quiet, the children are sleeping . . .)
06:38 gaal you can zoom through that list, no?
06:38 autrijus rich as in lots of angles to jump in
06:38 autrijus gaal: yes
06:38 GeJ good morning gentlemen
06:38 obra people are alive
06:39 autrijus good!
06:39 dduncan good morning gentle one
06:39 autrijus obra++ # alive is the ultimate insanity
06:39 geoffb morning, GeJ
06:39 GeJ wacky?
06:39 autrijus okay, alive it is.
06:39 obra when do you give this talk?
06:39 autrijus 24 hours from now
06:39 obra in talinn?
06:39 dduncan thats what your journal says
06:39 geoffb Wow, autrijus is ahead of schedule then
06:39 autrijus yeah
06:40 autrijus http://www.galois.com/cufp/
06:41 obra only $2000 to fly in for it
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06:42 obra but now, &sleep
06:42 geoffb well, at least he's lurking then . . .
06:42 obra good luck with the talk, autrijus
06:42 geoffb night, obra
06:42 autrijus thanks!
06:43 autrijus "C is for Comprehensive"
06:43 autrijus somehow doesn't ring as exciting as "P is for Practical"
06:43 geoffb agreed
06:44 gaal <cool compelling creative crackin' ...>
06:45 geoffb ...crack-pipe-smokin'...
06:45 Khisanth PC?
06:45 dduncan probably mentioned here already, but I noticed the webalized version of Larry's new onion talk is up ... the one I and some of you saw in person
06:46 autrijus hm, what's that saying?
06:46 autrijus "the only good indian is a dead indian?"
06:46 autrijus something like that
06:46 autrijus trying to adopt it in the CPAN context, eg "Best kind of coding is no coding at all"
06:46 autrijus but worded in a more catchy way
06:46 gaal the best program is one you don't have to write?
06:47 gaal that's less catchy actually
06:47 autrijus yeah
06:47 autrijus CPAN is the super glue; super glue is addictive
06:47 autrijus mmm not quite catchy
06:47 * gaal laughs
06:48 geoffb Someone has a longer quote . . . not so soundbite catchy, but more generally true ... something along the lines of "You are finished not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
06:49 autrijus Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
06:49 geoffb With the accent no less.
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06:52 autrijus Syntactic Aspartame: Shorthands without Bloat
06:52 * autrijus ponders the metaphor
06:53 geoffb I like it, but Bloat is a tad blunt
06:53 autrijus suggestions?
06:53 geoffb "All the flavor, none of the calories?"
06:53 geoffb "The zero calorie shorthand?"
06:54 autrijus problem is "calorie" carries no CS meaning
06:54 autrijus while Bloat has well estabished engineering meaning
06:54 geoffb "Guilt free sweetness?"
06:54 geoffb nod
06:54 gaal cruftless shorthands?
06:54 gaal nah..
06:55 autrijus cruft has no food meaning :p
06:55 autrijus hm, I wonder if anyone will get it with I put "-Ofun" on a slide
06:55 geoffb Many, I think
06:55 autrijus it stays then
06:56 geoffb Can't come up with a better aspartame comment
06:56 geoffb sigh
06:57 autrijus Manipulexity vs. Whipuptitude: Abstractions are sexy, Shorthands are comfortable
06:57 gaal i'll never be a copywriter... :)
06:57 gaal Whipuptitude? is that prototypability?
06:57 autrijus yeah
06:57 autrijus larry's word, not mine
06:58 gaal "prototypability without the liability"
06:58 geoffb I can never remember if Larry has both t's or just the second one
06:58 autrijus also maybe not "comfortable"
06:58 autrijus gaal: he used both
06:58 autrijus er
06:58 autrijus geoffb: he used both
06:58 autrijus on different occasions
06:59 geoffb ah, explains my confusion
06:59 gaal is that in the onion talk? i'm reading it now
06:59 geoffb The OSCON 2005 one?
06:59 autrijus no, was in an earlier
06:59 autrijus gaal: http://dev.perl.org/perl6/talks/2000/als/
06:59 geoffb What I got out of that one (the OSCON 2005 Onion) is that his kids are talented.
07:00 dduncan the new one is at http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/09/22/onion.html ; I'm reading it now
07:00 dduncan some of you are even mentioned by name
07:00 Khisanth ah that is finally up?
07:01 Khisanth Larry should have used a bigger head :)
07:01 dduncan it is so up
07:01 autrijus it's also far out
07:01 dduncan and don't forget, Larry's daughter drew all those character cards
07:01 dduncan she told me herself
07:02 QtPlatypus Larry's daughter is a pritty good artist
07:02 * dduncan met Larry's whole family an hour prior to the evening's events, when very few people were there
07:03 QtPlatypus Though did anyone else wish to play that spy game.
07:03 geoffb I certainly did
07:04 * xinming_Beijing wishes to see Larry. :-)
07:05 geoffb He's not that impressive in person.
07:05 geoffb Or at least, I didn't find him so.
07:05 Khisanth or in picture form!
07:05 QtPlatypus In photoes he looks like Doug Winger a little
07:06 QtPlatypus (Warning googleing for Doug Winger is NSFW)
07:06 dduncan Larry is certainly not an over bearing person
07:06 Khisanth is he calling Python evil? :)
07:06 dduncan he's certainly slinging a few at Python
07:07 geoffb I think all of the dynamic language designers like to tease each other
07:07 dduncan Python and Perl in particular, have a little friendly rivalry going on
07:08 dduncan they certainly use polar opposites to expouse a virtue of their side
07:08 geoffb nodnod
07:08 dduncan eg, "there's more than one way ... " vs "there's only one way ..."
07:09 * QtPlatypus just doesn'y understand why python doesn't have declare before use testing.
07:09 dduncan what does that mean?
07:09 dduncan ...
07:10 QtPlatypus use strict `vars`;
07:10 dduncan or do you mean that all variables spring into use on first reference
07:10 dduncan that's odd
07:10 dduncan I know PHP is that way, but I thought Python was more strict
07:10 Khisanth weird but only for Python :)
07:11 dduncan I've never used Python, but I always got the impression it was uber-strict
07:11 dduncan on purpose
07:11 dduncan it actually cares about indent whitespace
07:12 Khisanth so does Haskell... in some cases :)
07:12 QtPlatypus dduncan: As haskell does
07:12 dduncan so you say ... I've never written Haskell either
07:12 geoffb More language foolishness has happened because of bad answers to "I never want to make another bug like that again . . . "
07:13 autrijus second sketch up - feel freeo to hack
07:13 svnbot6 r7111 | autrijus++ | * Second sketch at Zurich airport
07:13 autrijus I'll board in <1hr
07:14 dduncan and I'll bed before that
07:14 gaal i think the reason significant whitespace works in haskell is that it's so terse, and it helps it stay terse.
07:14 autrijus and also in Haskell it's optional
07:14 Khisanth it IS kinda nice to have more or less uniform code between various coders
07:14 autrijus (and rational
07:15 autrijus )
07:15 Khisanth on the other hand wouldn't Lisp do better in that category? :)
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07:17 gaal autrijus: unwrapping pugs turned out to be hard. i'm really inclined to revert the frontend, though i'm not happy about it.
07:17 gaal what do you think?
07:17 gaal (hard = exec in haskell is worse than in perl5; and even in perl5 it didn't work well on windows)
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07:18 autrijus uh, why? I thought pugs has Prim exec
07:18 autrijus shouldn't that be just that?
07:18 gaal let me look, but haskell doesn't even *have* a standard exec, even not in posix.
07:19 autrijus executeFile
07:19 autrijus it's in our Compat
07:19 gaal ugh, exec calls executeFile, which is execvp or ve or one of those
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07:19 gaal and it doesn't work on windows.
07:20 autrijus code in a shim?
07:20 autrijus have it do a system
07:20 autrijus and then exitWith the error code
07:20 autrijus should be easy
07:20 gaal don't think it'll work with the console
07:21 gaal for interactive programs
07:21 autrijus I think it does, since PAR uses that trick
07:21 autrijus try rawSystem in System.Cmd
07:21 gaal okay, thanks
07:21 autrijus np :))
07:21 autrijus gaal++
07:21 autrijus that will also get us exec() for free
07:21 autrijus on win32 as a prim
07:22 gaal say that when it works :)
07:22 gaal i'm none of larry's children's agents!
07:25 gaal my personality is not reducible to a card: [gaal] does not compile
07:25 autrijus it means you are already in Weak Head Normal Form
07:25 autrijus (i.e. irreducible)
07:26 gaal weak head sounds about right
07:26 gaal though normal doesn not
07:27 dduncan I think Larry clearly names 3 of the 16 with individuals ... Autrijus (Ace), Damian (Le Chat), and himself (Wu-Li); the last one was a mock mistaken reveal
07:28 gaal hah, i was hardly expecting to have a card *for* me, dduncan :)
07:29 dduncan its more that Larry said the 3 real people were examples of those 3 roles
07:29 dduncan you can probably find yourself too
07:29 dduncan I can sort of find myself
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07:30 gaal what kind of a spy can't find themselves? har.
07:30 dduncan in my case, I probably identify with "Miss Engles", the librarian
07:31 Khisanth gaal: a great one!
07:31 gaal nah, i think a great spy can't be found, like
07:31 gaal hey, where's foo!?
07:32 gaal ah, there she is.
07:32 gaal (that's my cat. and no, no relation.)
07:32 dduncan can any of you identify a specific character that you seem the most like (you can give both an honest and made up answer, but say which is which)
07:33 * Khisanth is only one page 2
07:33 dduncan I personally find a lot to identify with in Miss Engles
07:34 * gaal is amused to be thrown into taxonomical confusion by larry wall of all people
07:34 dduncan Khasanth, that one is the 3rd person, which you get to on page 5; Autrijus/Ace is on page 4
07:35 dduncan s/a/i/
07:35 Khisanth I am at "Though offhand, I can't explain how I missed seeing Ruby. So anyway, I ended up with "Pearl" instead."
07:35 Khisanth that one is actually easy to explain, words was probably sorted alphabetically :)
07:36 dduncan in some ways, this is all funnier in person ... but the text does capture some of the humor
07:37 * dduncan thinks maybe we should make a sign-up wiki of sorts where each member of the Perl community signs up under the personality they most self-identify with
07:38 dduncan or, people could sign others up too
07:38 * gaal would like to see dduncan after work :)
07:38 dduncan well, you know where I live
07:39 gaal actually, i don't, but hey! we have this YAPC coming up in February.... :)
07:40 dduncan all the info's there if you know how to use WHOIS
07:40 gaal all pugs hackers welcome.
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07:40 dduncan I own about 30 domains
07:40 autrijus gaal: on the swiss air magazine I read a few articles about Tel Aviv
07:40 autrijus it looks like a very happening place :)
07:40 gaal if i don't know it, it can't be wrestled out of me in torture!
07:40 gaal aye, that it is
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07:42 autrijus boarding now. :) *wave*
07:42 dduncan regarding YAPC, I don't know yet ... on one hand, I'm deeper in the hole than before after borrowing for OSCON ... on the other hand, I just interviewed today for a paid full time job that I figure I have a good chance at
07:42 * dduncan *wave*
07:43 geoffb have a good flight
07:43 dduncan if I get said job, I may have a new influx of money leading to a possible YAPC attendence
07:43 gaal have a nice flight!
07:43 dduncan gaal, are you going to it?
07:43 spinclad good wings
07:43 dduncan oh, and have a nice flight
07:44 dduncan don't let your wings get tired
07:44 gaal dduncan: i'm helping to organize it (the one in .il that is)
07:45 dduncan I'd still be interested in meeting autrijus ... more difficult now that he's sworn off the US
07:45 dduncan maybe another YAPC will be in Canada?
07:45 gaal autrijus is coming to YAPC::Israel :-)
07:45 dduncan oh, that one
07:45 gaal as is Larry :-)
07:45 dduncan I've never been out of NA in my life
07:46 gaal now's your chance, bring a friend
07:46 dduncan such a trip is probably excessive for such a short term, but maybe in a few years after the debt's completely gone
07:46 dduncan NA is cheaper
07:47 gaal it probably is... unless you have to pay for a hotel, when it starts getting very expensive fast
07:47 Khisanth all the magical cruft has been moved out and replaced with new ones :)
07:47 dduncan autrijus must have a lot of money, to keep making all these international trips each year ... or a sponsor
07:48 dduncan at OSCON, I shared a hotel with 3 people, so the whole week cost me about $220
07:48 dduncan room
07:48 dduncan driving was my travel, total cost around $100
07:49 dduncan the event was the expensive part
07:49 dduncan I anticipate that any YAPC turns that on its head
07:49 dduncan cheap event, expensive travel
07:49 gaal yeah, the ticket for the conf is less than $100
07:50 dduncan yes, no problem there ... the travel is the biggest issue, I think
07:50 gaal actually, it's less than USD 65
07:50 dduncan that's cheap travel ... for you
07:51 gaal travel from the States is around $700 from NY
07:51 dduncan I live in Victoria, BC, Canada
07:51 gaal oh, $65 is the event, essentially free
07:52 gaal i think it's around $700 from toronto too, how much is the domestic flight?
07:52 dduncan it seems that http://www.yapc.org/ doesn't mention the 2006 events yet
07:52 gaal OSCON is immensely expensive, isn't it.
07:52 dduncan yes
07:53 dduncan after discounts, it was $1700 CDN for me
07:53 gaal http://www.perl.org.il/YAPC/2006/
07:53 gaal yikes, that's like what, 1300 USD?
07:53 dduncan 1350 USD
07:54 dduncan that's after 15% early reg discount and 15% user group discount
07:54 dduncan in future years I will qualify for alumni discount, which I guess is 25% or so
07:54 dduncan so thats CDN 1700 for conference, and CDN 400 for travel and hotel
07:55 dduncan because it was this close to where I live
07:55 gaal ouch. the commercial conf business is a different world
07:55 dduncan indeed
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07:55 dduncan this said, anyone who gives a 45 min talk gets in free ... I anticipate doing that next time I go
07:55 gaal we're scampering to get venue donations and stuff
07:56 gaal k, i need to hack a bit... later?
07:56 dduncan laters
07:56 dduncan tomorrow
07:56 gaal bye!
07:59 dduncan note that the 1700 included the 2 tutorial days; if not for them, it would have been around 40% less ... CDN1000 or so for the conference proper
07:59 dduncan which was 3 days
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08:10 szabgab I wonder what is the status of other front ends for Pugs
08:11 gaal szabgab: font ends or backends? you mean compile p6 -> javascript for example?
08:11 szabgab I am not really folowong the development but I receall there was some reorganizations
08:11 szabgab so tehre can ba Python front end
08:11 dduncan you typing real fast?
08:11 szabgab O mean Python-> PILS or whatever that would be called
08:11 gaal compile python to p6? that'd be nice, but i don't know anyone working on it.
08:12 szabgab dduncan: I try but I should not :-)
08:12 dduncan your spelling implies something along the lines of too fast for good
08:12 gaal AFAIK the only other language that turns into a pugs AST is yuval's Blondie
08:12 szabgab not to p6 I think but to the internal tree, it is called PILS, I think. Right ?
08:12 gaal but that's highly experimental stuff
08:13 gaal PIL
08:13 szabgab AST ? PIL ?
08:13 gaal it's not short for Pilsen :)
08:13 szabgab ah, :-(
08:13 dduncan but it is an acronym
08:13 gaal PIL, Pugs Intermediate Language
08:13 * gaal goes back to yak shaving
08:13 szabgab yeah, I think I wanted to write PILs
08:15 szabgab So the question is how easy or difficult it would be to work on Python to PIL ? Maybe on a Hackathon in February ?
08:15 szabgab OK, who knows what will be working by then.
08:16 gaal this is quite a new direction
08:17 geoffb g'night all
08:17 gaal it'll probably be much easier to write python -> parrot bytecode
08:17 gaal (or some other mutual VM)
08:17 szabgab I am trying to think what could be convincing for some Pythonists to join Pugs and maybe our hackathon?
08:18 gaal nothing comes to mind
08:19 gaal but it's an interesting notion :)
08:19 Khisanth for demonstrating PIL's flexibility?
08:19 szabgab In the last Python meeting I attended  (and actually on earlier discussions as well) there is not much interest in the Python community towards Parrot
08:19 gaal they get python -> js etc. for free
08:20 szabgab gaal++
08:20 gaal but it's quite an undertaking.
08:21 Khisanth that can probably be done more easily without getting PIL involved :)
08:25 GeJ implementing python on parrot, hum... isn't this what pirate is for?
08:26 Khisanth there are already multiple implementations of python, I am sure another wouldn't hurt :)
08:26 GeJ Pirate is a generic parrot compiler, but isn't there a sub-project (Dutchman or something) for a python frontend?
08:36 dduncan nap time!
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10:08 gaal rehi
10:10 dada hi gaal
10:10 dada gaal: did you convince putter to drop the pugs script? ;-)
10:11 gaal dada: autrijus convinced me to add exec to pugs ;-)
10:11 gaal i got basic support working, committing soon
10:13 dada all's well, that ends well
10:14 gaal it ain't over yet... we have to see it actually works where we need it
10:15 * gaal needs coffee
10:17 gaal ?eval multi sub x(@args) {"array"} multi sub x($str) {"scalar"} x("which am i?")
10:17 evalbot_7111 'scalar'
10:18 gaal hmm, good, but that's not what i'm seeing here :-(
10:19 dada what do you see?
10:20 gaal i have a few facades in the Prelude
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10:20 gaal the one that accepts a scalar is supposed to split on whitespace and create an argv from that
10:20 gaal (similar to what p5 does)
10:20 gaal but i don't think that's being called
10:21 gaal svn up and try for yourself
10:21 gaal brb, coffee
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10:24 svnbot6 r7112 | gaal++ | exec Compat for win32. Works, but not perfectly yet.
10:24 evalbot_7112 has joined #perl6
10:29 dada hm?
10:29 dada what should I try exactly?
10:29 gaal Saeco++ # cheap but excellent espresso machines
10:30 gaal dada: pugs_bin -e "exec('/windows/system32/cmd.exe /c echo moose')" etc.
10:31 gaal dada: pugs_bin -e "exec('cmd')" does in fact work
10:31 gaal oh, oops, i forgot to exit! :)
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10:34 nothingmuch hola luqui
10:34 nothingmuch pipe-ookoo-pipe
10:34 nothingmuch that's a nice alt nick
10:35 luqui hola
10:35 luqui isn't though... :-/
10:35 luqui s/t/t it/
10:35 dada gaal: harrr!
10:36 luqui oh boy, my laptop gets to update 2000 revisions of pugs. fun.
10:36 dada NMAKE : fatal error U1073: don't know how to make 'pugs.exe.bat'
10:36 gaal touch it.
10:36 gaal i don't know who added that, must have been from the batch file wrapper attempts.
10:37 dada the Makefile is borked
10:37 gaal is it?
10:37 dada        C:\data\perl\bin\perl.exe -Iinc -MExtUtils::Command -e cp pugs.exe C:\da
10:37 dada da\pugs\blib\script\pugs.exe
10:37 dada oops
10:38 dada that should be pugs, not pugs.exe
10:38 gaal yes, because '$pugs' is set with _bin at the top of Makefile.PL
10:38 gaal not sure it's worth fixing as we're unwrapping anyway.
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10:44 gaal wha--?
10:44 gaal ?eval "asdf zxcv qwer".split(rx:Perl5/\s+/)
10:44 evalbot_7112 ('asdf', 'zxcv', 'qwer')
10:45 gaal ?eval sub d($x){$x.split(rx:Perl5/\s+/)} d("qwer asdf zxcv")
10:45 evalbot_7112 ('qwer', 'asdf', 'zxcv')
10:45 gaal ?eval sub d($x){my @arr = $x.split(rx:Perl5/\s+/)} d("qwer asdf zxcv")
10:45 evalbot_7112 ['qwer', 'asdf', 'zxcv']
10:46 gaal um
10:46 Juerd d() is probably in item context.
10:46 Juerd ?eval sub d { want } d
10:46 evalbot_7112 'Scalar (Any), LValue'
10:46 Juerd Yep.
10:47 Juerd Still, the list returned in the first case is weird and wrong
10:47 gaal i'm getting something unsplit in @arr
10:47 Juerd Lists can't *exist* in non-list context :)
10:47 Juerd ?eval sub d { want } list d
10:47 evalbot_7112 'List (Any), LValue'
10:47 Juerd ?eval sub d { want } item d
10:47 evalbot_7112 'Scalar (Any), LValue'
10:48 Juerd ?eval sub d { want } item ~d
10:48 evalbot_7112 'Scalar (Any)'
10:48 Juerd Str.
10:48 Juerd Context isn't done yet?
10:48 gaal that's not the problem i'm seeing
10:48 gaal i think
10:48 gaal i'm doing:
10:48 gaal my @args = $string.split(rx:Perl5/\s+/);
10:48 gaal but @args is being populated with one unsplit string.
10:49 luqui ?eval sub d { say want };  my @a = d;
10:49 evalbot_7112 List (Any) [bool::true]
10:49 luqui hmm..
10:52 gaal looks like i'm going mad, but i have the debug prints to prove i'm not :)
10:52 luqui yeah, that is odd
10:53 luqui what is the sig of split in prim.hs?
10:54 * QtPlatypus is looking at module HTTP::Server::Simple "Does module imply class?"
10:55 gaal split has some magic to allow both argument orders
10:55 gaal trying the other form now
10:55 luqui QtPlatypus, I think it's the other way around
10:55 luqui but Larry's big on his tagmemics, so it's possible
10:56 gaal luqui: so split has lots of Prim sigs
10:56 gaal anyway calling it in non-OO form doesn't help either.
10:56 luqui hmm
10:57 luqui yeah, and they all return Lists
10:57 gaal yup
10:58 gaal let's see what the fasttrack version does
10:58 svnbot6 r7113 | luqui++ | Added my theory proposal.  Hopefully this isn't too far off from the final draft,
10:58 svnbot6 r7113 | luqui++ | but I want to have the lambdacamels look it over first.
10:58 luqui fasttrack?
10:58 gaal (the one that thunks to haskell's `words`)
10:58 luqui ahh
10:58 gaal (and `thunk` in the api sense, not the closure sense)
10:59 gaal precompilation must be made faster :-)
11:00 evalbot_7112 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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11:00 gaal so, my stereo's off. what should i remedy that with>?
11:01 nnunley Power.  More power.
11:02 gaal ah, but of what sort?
11:02 gaal wow, the built-in haskell words version works.
11:02 gaal scary.
11:09 gaal dada: pin
11:09 gaal !!g
11:10 svnbot6 r7114 | gaal++ | exec:
11:10 svnbot6 r7114 | gaal++ | * exit when successful, duh
11:10 svnbot6 r7114 | gaal++ | * use a form of split that actually works (split should be fixed though!)
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11:12 gaal split.t has this note:
11:12 gaal 4073  broquaint # XXX - this needs to be updated when Str.split(Str) works again
11:12 gaal 4073 was a while ago, anyone handle this lately?
11:12 gaal also:
11:13 gaal seen broquaint
11:13 * gaal resists yakshaving digressions :/
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11:34 QtPlatypus Has someone updated Test.pm after the ?? change.
11:35 gaal sure
11:35 gaal make sure you aren't using an old one installed in your system
11:36 gaal PERL6LIB should be blib6/lib
11:37 szabgab has left
11:40 * QtPlatypus nods "thanks"
11:40 gaal np :)
11:54 GeJ 6.2.10 could be 6.28.0???
11:54 GeJ wow...
11:58 gaal haskell idom help wanted! any lambdaheads about?
11:58 luqui hello
11:58 * luqui isn't fluent in haskell, but can probably figure it out
11:58 gaal heya! i have something that wants to be a guard expresion, but the conditions are monadic. nopaste coming up.
11:59 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "prettify this" (7 lines, 213B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13265
12:00 gaal is it simply a matter of purifying it by introducing unsafePerfomIO?
12:00 gaal (i keep writing unsafePerlform...)
12:01 luqui hmmm
12:01 gaal usually monadic compuations stop at the first failing one
12:01 gaal i want the reverse
12:01 gaal stop at the first successful one.
12:02 * luqui has an idea
12:02 * gaal braces himself
12:02 luqui hmm, can I just paste it on top of yours
12:02 luqui n/m
12:02 gaal hmmm?
12:03 * luqui fights with his browser window a bit
12:04 * luqui then thinks a little, realizing that his idea wasn't as conceptually simple as he thought
12:05 gaal i'll ask on #haskell. they're sure to give me conceptually simple ideas!
12:05 luqui I was going for syntactically simple :-)
12:05 gaal ;-)
12:06 luqui but I need a function that takes (a -> IO b) -> IO (a -> b)
12:06 gaal hoogle?
12:06 luqui it was taking forever to load
12:06 luqui and it doesn't index much
12:06 luqui but I'm looking now
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12:07 luqui now I'm curious
12:07 gaal !? why does e.g. floor show up there?
12:08 Juerd Does pugs even know void context yet?
12:09 Juerd Or is what I'm doing absolutely futile because it just doesn't exist? :)
12:14 luqui ?eval sub d () { say want }  d; d; d
12:14 evalbot_7114 Void, LValue Void, LValue Scalar (Any), LValue bool::true
12:18 gaal luqui: we've stumped them? :)
12:18 luqui seems so
12:19 luqui I might be on to something with MaybeT
12:19 luqui but you might as well write it as cascaded ifs
12:19 gaal indeed
12:19 QtPlatypus How did 3 calls to say result in four outputs"
12:20 luqui ?eval 4
12:20 evalbot_7114 4
12:21 luqui zero calls to say resulted in one output
12:21 luqui but I think you were misreading the output
12:21 luqui ?eval sub d () { say "{", want, "}" }  d; d; d
12:21 evalbot_7114 , want,  , want,  , want,  bool::true
12:21 luqui er
12:21 luqui oh yeah
12:22 luqui ?eval sub d () { say "[", want, "]" }  d; d; d
12:22 evalbot_7114 [Void, LValue] [Void, LValue] [Scalar (Any), LValue] bool::true
12:22 * QtPlatypus nods
12:26 pasteling "luqui" at 67.165.197.242 pasted "Monadic guard" (7 lines, 194B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13266
12:26 luqui s/case/return $ case/
12:26 gaal luqui: thanks; does this perform fileExists on both first?
12:27 gaal s/does/doesn't/
12:27 dada gaal: "pugs" by itself seems to be working fine now
12:27 * luqui doesn't know anything about evaluation order :-)
12:27 gaal really? cool!
12:27 dada gaal: I mean the pugs.bat incarnation
12:27 luqui lazy languages scare me in that respect
12:27 gaal dada: very nice
12:27 gaal your work?
12:28 gaal luqui: mind if i ask on haskell?
12:28 luqui nopers
12:28 gaal or ask yerself!
12:29 * luqui doesn't really care
12:29 * luqui is just trying to find a way to keep from doing n bindings before an n-line case test
12:29 * gaal asked.
12:30 dada even pugs -e "say <hi>" (with a space) works
12:30 gaal dada: who fixed this, you? i didn't notice any commits about this
12:30 dada no, I didn't :-)
12:30 dada someone added a pugs.bat to the rep
12:31 gaal svn praise shows it's putter :)
12:31 dada he did the right thing :-)
12:31 gaal he has some polyglot code on his homepage already :)
12:31 gaal putter++ putter++ putter++
12:32 gaal shame that i missed this commit though
12:34 Juerd 14:15 < luqui> ?eval sub d () { say want }  d; d; d
12:34 Juerd 14:15 < evalbot_7114> Void, LValue Void, LValue Scalar (Any), LValue bool::true
12:34 Juerd aha
12:34 Juerd Stupid me.
12:34 Juerd Thanks :)
12:35 pasteling "luqui" at 67.165.197.242 pasted "Monadic guard" (10 lines, 310B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13267
12:37 gaal luqui: #haskell that!
12:37 luqui what are we asking?
12:38 gaal i dunno, for a review? it looks like it works but isn't idiomatic
12:39 gaal but maybe like ski said that can be hidden in a function
12:39 gaal never mind - i'll focus on getting my actual code working now :)
12:39 gaal thanks!
12:40 luqui :-)
12:42 luqui gaal, btw, you can align them
12:42 luqui apparently the $ at the end lets you do that
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12:49 svnbot6 r7115 | luqui++ | Minor edits, noticed a bug in the proposal and wrote it down so I can think about it.
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13:25 gaal luqui: got another minute? this all has to be in Maybe, but I'm finding that confusing.
13:25 * luqui likes Maybe
13:25 luqui sure
13:25 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "some more lifting necessary" (29 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13271
13:27 gaal (the current snippet is obviously wrong in findHelper (x:xs); for one thing the fileExists should be liftIO'ed (right?)
13:27 gaal )
13:27 luqui hang on.   I read haskell at about ten characters per minute :-)
13:30 gaal yeah, and that's a little hairy
13:30 gaal the basic idea is that we want to find an appropriate file in a search path
13:30 luqui it seems like findHelper should be :: [[FilePath]] -> IO (Maybe FilePath)
13:31 gaal with a little extra complication of having two alternate names in each node in the path list
13:31 gaal hmmm
13:32 luqui I don't see you needing to lift at all here
13:32 gaal lesseee
13:33 gaal findHelper [] = Nothing    => .... IO Nothing?
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13:33 luqui findHelper [] = return Nothing
13:33 gaal ah yesofcourse
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13:34 * luqui never realized how insanely much signatures help readability
13:34 luqui having the signature separate from the definition is a big win
13:34 * luqui thinks about perl :-)
13:38 svnbot6 r7116 | fglock++ | * perl5/Array - changed stringification, join.t passes 5 more tests
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13:38 gaal luqui: there's a problem with the otherwise clause:
13:39 gaal | otherwise -> findHelper xs
13:39 gaal Couldn't match `String' against `Maybe FilePath'
13:39 gaal s/clause/guard/
13:39 luqui that's... weird
13:40 luqui oh
13:40 luqui you can't return an IO something
13:40 luqui so you have to factor the return inside the case
13:40 gaal only in the first two?
13:40 luqui right
13:41 * gaal tries
13:41 gaal that worked. thanks a lot :)
13:41 luqui sure
13:42 * luqui really likes haskell because it seems that if something type checks then it works
13:42 luqui at least as long as you keep your functions small
13:42 gaal that's only because nothing ever typechecks!
13:42 luqui which is consistent with software in general
13:42 luqui nothing ever works!
13:43 gaal yup. btw that comonad thing is utterly frightening.
13:43 luqui quite
13:44 luqui fortunately, haskell is not a language in which it can work :-)
13:44 gaal the thread i found ended in suspense
13:44 gaal # http://www.mail-archive.com/haske​ll-cafe@haskell.org/msg02749.html
13:45 luqui ski has some commentary on the haskell wiki
13:45 luqui he says that a linear type system would allow them
13:45 luqui but you get a noninvertible "zero type" otherwise... whatever that means
13:46 gaal it's the frequency of the phrase "whatever that means" that unsettles me
13:46 luqui heh
13:46 luqui I figure I'll start to get it once I get my second PhD in mathematics
13:46 luqui :-)
13:48 gaal maybe it only works for odd primes.
13:49 luqui maybe it only works for 2, like fermat's theorem
13:51 gaal it's likely. you never know what strain of getting a third math PhD might do to you.
13:55 gaal yay! -B works on win32 from within pugs!
13:55 luqui cool
13:55 gaal just to check that the interactive mode isn't hopelessly b0rked
13:56 gaal (what a nice pat on the back that i need to install a module of my own from CPAN to do that!)
13:57 Juerd munin++
13:57 Juerd Easy to write plugins for
13:57 gaal spectacular, it does work. @prereqs_for_taking_over_the_world.shift;
13:57 Juerd http://munin.convolution.nl/local/f​eather.perl6.nl-perl6_pugssize.html
13:57 Juerd Not the most interesting graph yet
13:57 Juerd But it works :)
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14:00 luqui Juerd, the size of the executable?
14:00 Juerd "This graph shows the size of the stripped pugs executable."
14:00 Juerd The description is below the charts
14:00 luqui heh
14:00 luqui reading is for chumps
14:01 Juerd You read IRC
14:01 luqui maybe I listen
14:01 Juerd You like data to be pushed to you, rather than pulling it? If so, you're the perfect victim for advertisements :)
14:01 Juerd No, you're not listening to IRC
14:01 Juerd There are several ways to tell :)
14:02 Juerd 15:57 < gaal> spectacular, it does work. @prereqs_for_taking_over_the_world.shift;
14:03 Juerd Isn't that $gaal.goals{'take over the world'}.prereqs.shift?
14:03 gaal no, it's global to pugs hackers.
14:03 Juerd heh
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14:04 gaal take over the world = global (sorry! :-)
14:04 Juerd Anyway - does anyone know how to fetch just the number of the current revision, without having any local copy? (svk or svn)
14:04 Juerd I think that'd be an interesting thing to chart
14:05 gaal you mean of your current executable? or what's the latest commit in the official repository?
14:05 Juerd It can be seen as a DERIVE counter: it'll plot the difference
14:05 Juerd The latter
14:05 svnbot6 r7117 | gaal++ | `-B backend` can now be handled by the main pugs executable again.
14:05 svnbot6 r7117 | gaal++ | next step is to remove the perl5 wrapper.
14:05 Juerd The executable and my working directory lag with 15 minutes
14:05 Juerd This is a 10 minute thing, so it has a possible lag of 5.
14:06 Juerd It can be more even
14:07 gaal you could webscrape it...
14:08 gaal http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/ has the revision in the header
14:08 gaal it's not a very great way, but if you don't have a real svn/svk client...
14:09 Juerd Ah, this is perfect
14:09 Juerd Thank
14:09 Juerd s
14:10 gaal you're most welcome. nice graphs :)
14:10 gaal could someone who's on unix please see if exec still works for them?
14:12 gaal and if `pugs_bin  -B JS` starts an interactive shell?
14:12 Juerd if exec works?
14:12 Juerd The exec syscall?
14:13 Juerd Or the pugs function?
14:13 Juerd Or...?
14:13 luqui wow, I totally cannot understand BlowNose in #haskell
14:13 fglock gaal: I get "src/Pugs/Compat.hs:62:82: Not in scope: type constructor or class `ExitCode'" when starting compilation - but it may be a problem here
14:13 gaal Juerd: the exec builtin in pugs. It's been refactored.
14:13 gaal fglock: no, it's very likely my bug. sec.
14:14 Juerd You have a feather account...
14:14 Juerd exec works
14:15 Juerd (on feather)
14:15 gaal fixed
14:15 gaal Juerd: yes, just realized that
14:15 fglock gaal: src/Pugs/Compat.hs:65:9: Not in scope: `try'
14:15 svnbot6 r7118 | gaal++ | unbreak build on non-Windows systems. fglock++
14:16 gaal hmmm.
14:16 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
14:16 gaal ook, sec
14:19 evalbot_7117 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
14:19 gaal evalbot runs on windows? interesting
14:20 evalbot_7118 has joined #perl6
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14:20 gaal or: how come Juerd's pugs compiles but fglock's doesn't?
14:20 gaal ?eval $*OS
14:20 evalbot_7118 \undef
14:20 Juerd Oh, I didn't try building
14:20 gaal ?eval $?OS
14:20 evalbot_7118 \'linux'
14:20 Juerd If pugs doesn't build, the old executable stays in place.
14:21 Juerd See ~juerd/auto/*.out and *.err
14:21 gaal ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
14:21 evalbot_7118 \'Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.9, August 3, 2005 (r6945)'
14:21 gaal heh.
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14:23 luqui woah, 6945?
14:23 luqui is that the last time a .hs file was changed, or is it because pugs is failing to build?
14:24 gaal dunno. i think there have been r lies in the past
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14:27 luqui build is failing
14:27 evalbot_7118 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
14:28 gaal working on it, luqui.
14:29 scook0 luqui: I read through your theories doc -- it's very ... intimidating
14:29 SM_ax has quit IRC ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
14:29 scook0 but also very interesting
14:29 luqui thank you and thank you...
14:29 * luqui wonders how he could make it less intimidating
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14:30 luqui scook0, are you referring to the new one that I committed today?
14:30 scook0 luqui: aye
14:30 chihchun has joined #perl6
14:30 scook0 though I'd read the old one as well
14:30 luqui okay good, that's the one I'm working on :-)
14:31 scook0 the new one is much more far-reaching than I expected
14:31 scook0 is it all the TaPL kool-aid? :)
14:31 luqui I mostly came up with all this before I even opened TaPL
14:32 luqui I walked home from school every day last week (about an hour walk)
14:32 scook0 oh
14:32 luqui walking is good for thinking, so I just thought about it the whole time
14:32 xinming_Beijing has joined #perl6
14:32 luqui but it was hard not to touch everything
14:33 luqui oh, this would be cleaner if lists just worked like this instea
14:33 luqui !!d
14:34 luqui oh, it would be a lot nicer if everything were a multi already *bangs self on head before Larry has a chance to*
14:36 scook0 luqui: "When you extend a union, you create a superset (but still a subtype)."
14:36 scook0 how does that work?
14:37 luqui The next sentence explains that...
14:37 luqui if B does A (in union land), then B is a superset of A, but B can be used wherever A can
14:38 luqui but maybe that's not true, given the XXX at the end of the theories section
14:39 luqui patterns are posing a little difficulty wrt factories.  I hope I can work it out, because the role/factory duality is so beautiful
14:39 scook0 I'm just worried about what happens when someone expects a Tree, and you give them an Annotation
14:39 luqui well, you'll be pattern matching, right?
14:39 luqui so the Tree patterns just fail
14:39 luqui hmmm... but then you don't get a complete traversal.
14:39 luqui maybe this is what the XXX is referring to mathematically
14:40 * luqui 'll be walking home today, too, so I'll try and get this worked out
14:41 luqui speaking of which, I ought to be heading off to school
14:42 luqui thanks for your comments scook0
14:42 scook0 and I should be heading off to bed
14:42 integral wow, this stuff is really neat.  luqui++
14:42 scook0 luqui: no problem
14:42 luqui thanks :-)
14:42 scook0 I'll read it again tomorrow with a fresh brain
14:42 scook0 bye
14:42 luqui bye
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14:46 wolverian heh, some pretty funny trolls over at /. on state of the onion
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14:55 svnbot6 r7119 | gaal++ | fix build for real.
15:17 gaal okay, i think we can remove the wrapped pugs now. what's the cleanes way, revision control-wise, to do this?
15:17 gaal this doc:
15:17 gaal # http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1​.1/ch04s04.html#svn-ch-4-sect-4.2
15:17 gaal describes how to do it when you're rolling back *one* revision.
15:18 gaal but apart from 6946, there have been a few more that we want to undo
15:18 gaal it's not a very big change so i don't mind doing it manually, but i also want to know the "right" way.
15:19 gaal (actually, it's just svn rm pugs and a few edits to Makefile.PL to do this manually)
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15:39 integral iirc it's svn merge -r 1235:1234, which unapplies changset 1235 to the working copy
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16:04 eric256 so does anyone konw where i should look for the code to go back to embeding the source of prelude.pm if you don't compile it?
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16:09 nothingmuch PING 1127491752 131736
16:10 GeJ nothingmuch: pong
16:10 nothingmuch pong?
16:10 GeJ --- Received a CTCP PING 1127491752 131736 from nothingmuch
16:10 nothingmuch oh
16:10 * nothingmuch didn't know that was user visible
16:10 nothingmuch i thought that was between the IRC server and me
16:11 * nothingmuch suspected his internet connection died
16:11 nothingmuch sorry
16:11 GeJ no problem... I don't think it made my BP quota explode the limit
16:15 gaal eric256: look for gen_prelude
16:18 gaal brb
16:22 eric256 which gen_prelude? or in which file...
16:22 ods15 nothingmuch: you didn't notice the like hundrend of ping replies from every user here?
16:28 gaal eric256: there's a src/gen_prelude.hs that actually does get built - it's a remnant of the old system
16:28 gaal look for how the precomp prelude is initted - Run.hs:159
16:28 eric256 yea....i just don't know how to get from that to being able to compile without prelude but still have it loaded when i run pugs_bin.exe
16:28 gaal you need something very similar, that uses the unprecomp prelude
16:29 gaal if you browse the history for Run.hs you'll find it
16:29 gaal well, the *configuration* for this should be via config.yml
16:29 gaal there was once an option, inline_prelude or something similar
16:30 gaal this all happens at build time
16:30 eric256 yea.
16:30 gaal so the build system can decide to put the prelude as a string, and have pugs do eval on that.
16:30 eric256 maybe i'll just go find my feather acount. lol
16:31 wolverian now I know why I haven't learned haskell yet. I just haven't been looking at small, practical examples.
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16:35 wolverian (the haskell wiki helps with this.)
16:35 gaal wolverian: Prim.hs too
16:36 Khisanth hrm my main problem is finding something to do with it :)
16:36 Khisanth err a problem to solve with it
16:37 gaal find something you want pugs to do :)
16:39 wolverian pugs is a bit scary to me.
16:41 gaal aye, but Prim is often a good start because it has relatively simple things
16:41 Khisanth something a bit smaller!
16:41 gaal like wrapping a functionality provided by haskell builtins in a way that's suitable for perl
16:52 Limbic_Region if you haven't read Larry's State of the Onion 9 - do so
16:52 Limbic_Region autrijus and pugs are talked about in a good way
16:56 eric256 where would we read that at?
16:56 Khisanth perl.com
16:56 Khisanth it also calls Python evil :P
17:00 eric256 he doesn't get right to any point does he? :)
17:02 GoCooL When they say "Pugs is a Perl6 implementation", what exactly does that mean?
17:03 eric256 it means pugs can interpret scripts that fit the Perl6 language specification
17:03 geoffb For varying definitions of "fit" and "specification
17:03 geoffb "
17:03 eric256 well ......sorta. ;) both the spec and the interpreter arn't complete though
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17:12 wolverian I'd like to see a formal spec
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17:16 eric256 he speaches are allways....well...interesting. lol
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18:05 gaal eric256: going okay?
18:08 eric256 i haven't tried antyhing
18:08 eric256 ended up swamped with real work
18:10 gaal i know how that goes :-)
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18:34 elmex ?
18:52 wolverian is there a low-precedence version of + (numeric context)?
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19:02 fglock ?eval  +"10" ~ "20"
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19:40 eric256 how do i broswe a files history on the SVN repository...isn't there a web url i can use
19:44 eric256 nm found it through the recent commits link
19:46 eric256 http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/P​roject/Source/index.html/pugs/diff/​Makefile.PL?rev1=4165&amp;rev2=4216 seems to be the change related to making it include Prelude....but is that compiled or just inlined?
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20:37 fraxtal I just downloaded the win32 binary of pugs from http://www.jwcs.net/~jonathan/perl6/, but the zip file doesn't seem to contain the pugs binary.  Anyone know what's up with that?
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20:55 gaal fraxtal: do you have a pugs_bin.exe?
20:55 fraxtal gaal: No.  All I have is a parrot.exe
20:55 gaal and a perl script called pugs?
20:56 fraxtal I don't think so
20:56 fraxtal but which directory would that be in?
20:56 gaal looks like a packaging error
20:56 fraxtal It's not in the top level and there is no bin folder
20:56 gaal not sure, i never looked at that install
20:57 gaal we've changed the way pugs itself is loaded recently (and might change it again soon)
20:57 fraxtal hmm
20:57 gaal but you should have had a pugs and possibly a pugs.bat
20:57 gaal not sure where, in that package.
20:57 gaal how new is it?
20:58 fraxtal 9/20/2005
20:58 gaal that version would have some problems on win32, but could conceivably have worked.
20:59 gaal i suppose you should wait a few more days for a newer, unbroken package to come up,
20:59 fraxtal ok
20:59 fraxtal i'll keep my eye on it
20:59 gaal or if you're impatient, compile a pugs yourself :)
21:06 eric256 if you can get it to compile..../me is seriously considering putting more memory in just to be able to painlessly compile pugs
21:10 gaal 256MB of RAM == better than 100MHz of CPU
21:10 gaal up to some limit :)
21:11 gaal actually it's negative. you need the *least* amount of RAM that you'll actually used (taking spares into account), and put the rest of your money in other things (CPU, faster disk...)
21:11 gaal but everybody on this channel knows that :)
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21:25 eric256 i'm continously amazed by the lack of humor some people display on PM....and it nearly always is an anonymous monk
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21:36 wolverian for some reason I want $foo.chars to return a list of characters
21:36 wolverian same for .bytes etc.
21:36 wolverian @foo.elems would be confusing. :)
21:38 wilx Byte and character is not always the same.
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21:46 Juerd wolverian: So do I.
21:46 Juerd wolverian: All of these should behave following the same pattern:
21:46 Juerd void context: nothing (duh!)
21:47 Juerd item context: return number
21:47 Juerd list context: return elements
21:47 Juerd There is also no good reason for @foo.elems, as @foo already behaves as we need.
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21:55 eric256 TSa seems to make my head hurt....i've totaly lost track of that thread or even who is advocating what. lol
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23:03 landover may i ask a newbie question?
23:04 landover as though i am the newbie programming coming to perl6?
23:04 rantanplan_ Perl6 is still envolving. So if you are a newbie i recommend learning Perl5 instead.
23:05 landover err new to perl6
23:05 rantanplan_ Ah, ok. :).
23:05 landover but i have some questions that maybe due to a lack of some education in higher level comp science
23:05 landover regarding threading
23:05 landover or should i say multi-threading in general
23:06 landover i get the concept of multi-threading of the fact that its like forking but without a new pid
23:06 landover but
23:06 rantanplan_ I think any Perl6 implementation does not yet support threading. But maybe i can help you.
23:07 landover well let me break down my idiotic obnoxious questions into something that i hope is a readable format
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23:07 landover 1) Multi-threading when is good to use and when is it bad to use?
23:09 landover 2) How does multi-threading impact big(0) along with speed in general?
23:09 wilx Heh.
23:09 wilx I doubt anybody is going to answer.
23:10 landover is that dumb?
23:10 wilx Your questions are too unrelated and broad.
23:10 landover ah
23:11 landover well to narrow it down my question is that is there a way currently in any language to make all functions appear to be running in their own process i know this may not make sense but for what i am doing i need little "agents" so to speak
23:11 landover without having to Fork for each little agent
23:12 landover like if you have a perl6 or perl5 subroutine, and lets pretend the subroutine ran a task if i wanted a thousand or so tasks to run at the same time
23:12 rantanplan_ I would not use 1000 threads within the same program.
23:12 landover right
23:13 landover this is hypothetical of course
23:13 landover but you also wouldnt have 1000 pid's as well i assume correct?
23:13 rantanplan_ I would recommend a single thread and single process which is using select or something.
23:13 landover meaning how can i have 1000 things run in parallel without using threads or pid's
23:13 eric256 has left
23:14 landover i tried poe but it cant do everything that i wanted it to do and rather than hunt around the vast info of non-truth i figured i would ask some experts in the field
23:14 rantanplan_ On UNIX and UNIX like OSes you may use select or similar. Dont know about Windows.
23:14 wilx Or non-blocking or async I/O.
23:15 landover i know this may sound confusing but i am trying to build functios that are miniature turing machines
23:15 landover so basically have a daemon that listens on a socket async correct?
23:16 landover for fun i was trying to see if i could take a mathmatical algorithm and break it down via small turing machines
23:16 rantanplan_ If you know C, take a look at libevent. This seems to be nice stuff.
23:16 landover that would run in parrallel
23:16 landover << knows a little C but was trying to stick with something that was interpreted like perl etc
23:17 landover point being though ok so your saying that its something that i would have to do at the OS level in terms of either async /non-blocking socket connections
23:17 landover or use something like C etc
23:18 rantanplan_ Yes. Or use Perl5. (Which is offtopic too). -> perldoc -f select
23:19 landover k thanks i understand its not a perl6 topic but i have been trying to find a language that will let me build small turing machines that run in parallel and rather than re-invent the wheel i figured i'd ask those that are more intelligent than myself
23:21 rantanplan_ Yeah, Perl5, Python, Ruby, Lisp, Haskell .. would be all fine i think. Or even Lisp. But i recommend Perl5 (because i know it the best).
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23:23 rantanplan_ So do it in the language you know the best.
23:24 landover ya i know perl5 pretty well although there is still new things im learning every day
23:24 landover ok now i have a big question though regarding perl6
23:25 landover is strictly typed optional in perl6?
23:25 kgftr|konobi yup
23:26 rantanplan_ But strict is standard in Perl6. I ve read.
23:26 rantanplan_ Ah strictly typed.
23:26 rantanplan_ Never mind.
23:26 rantanplan_ Didnt read ;).
23:26 rantanplan_ I meant "use strict".
23:28 landover right my concern about the strictly typed is what are the true benefits of typed versus untyped in general? Being as though Ive only worked in smalltalk, perl, javascript, and python I dropped strictly typed languages because they were more time consuming to create things in how do you think this will effect me in the long term?
23:30 rantanplan_ Strictly typed makes the programm runs faster. And it also prevents bugs in the source code.
23:30 rantanplan_ s/runs/run/;

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