Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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03:51 stevan autrijus: nothingmuch helped me golf WALKMETH down even further,. you will like this one
03:51 stevan my $dispatcher = shift;
03:51 stevan { ($dispatcher->() || return)->get_method(@_) || redo }
03:51 stevan thats all of it,.. it just works ;)
03:52 * stevan wanders off to sleep &
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03:54 svnbot6 r7180 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
03:54 svnbot6 r7180 | stevan++ | * further distillation of WALKMETH thanks to nothingmuch++
03:54 svnbot6 r7180 | stevan++ |   it has now been golfed down to just 2 lines:
03:54 svnbot6 r7180 | stevan++ |   my $dispatcher = shift;
03:54 svnbot6 r7180 | stevan++ |   { ($dispatcher->() || return)->get_method(@_) || redo }
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03:55 guorke hi,can you see "" ?
03:57 * QtPlatypus can see
03:58 guorke i download a patch,let mirc can display chinese words
04:00 * QtPlatypus just sees double quote, double quote, space, questionmark
04:03 guorke oh, maybe it can not covert GBK to utf-8
04:15 * masak sings 'can you see the "" tonight?'
04:18 guorke ?
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05:57 nothingmuch morning
05:57 nothingmuch but ciao
05:58 geoffb heh
05:58 * nothingmuch 's ride to work is *finally* getting here soon
05:58 nothingmuch (it's 9am already, which means i'll be at work around 9:45, and the std here is 8:15-8:30)
05:58 geoffb rideshare?
05:59 nothingmuch aye, either with someone who makes a big commute daily or with the folks
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05:59 nothingmuch the problem is that folks aren't teaching right now - it's between semesters
05:59 nothingmuch so they are slacking
05:59 geoffb What do your parents teach?
05:59 nothingmuch degenerates
05:59 geoffb *smirk*
06:00 nothingmuch dad: http://www.math.bgu.ac.il/~kojman/
06:00 nothingmuch and mom: http://profiler.bgu.ac.il/site/publ​ic_site/Show_User.cfm?user_id=1045
06:01 geoffb Interesting pairing
06:01 nothingmuch aye
06:02 geoffb Though I can completely see math + language = CS
06:02 geoffb (genetically speaking)
06:02 * nothingmuch wants to study math & linguistics
06:02 nothingmuch and some compsci for the hobby aspect
06:03 nothingmuch *poof*
06:03 nothingmuch see you soon
06:03 geoffb sys
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06:33 nothingmuch luqui: ping
06:33 nothingmuch two things:
06:33 nothingmuch a. go to sleep young man
06:33 nothingmuch b. can you open up the repo for L::AG?
06:34 luqui the repo is already open
06:34 nothingmuch so can you point me to it?
06:34 luqui http://svn.luqui.org/svn/misc/luke/work/co​de/perl/modules/Language-AttributeGrammar
06:34 nothingmuch goody
06:34 nothingmuch http://blog.moertel.com/articles/2005/09/27​/the-oddities-of-floating-point-arithmetic
06:35 nothingmuch i think perl 6 should truncate upwards when the number is 409.999999994
06:35 nothingmuch anyway, off to work... finally
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06:35 * luqui (and one of my friends) thinks that perl should have a builtin round() function
06:35 luqui to complement int()
06:36 luqui er, *his* friends :-)
06:36 nothingmuch yes, we should
06:36 geoffb That does a proper round, not just +.5 / trunc
06:36 nothingmuch but we should also have a truncate that also DWIMs around 0.99999
06:37 luqui oh nothingmuch
06:37 nothingmuch while 'float::int()' will do the bare metal truncate
06:37 luqui if you want to commit to the repo, you should give yourself a commit bit at luqui.org/svn-adduser
06:37 nothingmuch okies
06:37 geoffb Anyone specifying rules for floating point math should be forced to take classes with Prof. W. Kahan first
06:38 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
06:38 luqui agreed, for various values of Prof. W. Kahan
06:39 geoffb The value I'm thinking of was one of the guys behind the IEEE FP design, wrote the transcedental microcode for early Intel processors, and spends his days writing papers about how incredibly bad the tiniest FP errors are.
06:39 geoffb Crazy, but Real Damn Smart
06:42 geoffb Funny how often those go hand in hand
06:43 Aankhen`` Normal people aren't smart.  You have to go beyond normality if you are to be smart.
06:43 geoffb valid point
06:44 Khisanth and creative/inventive :)
06:44 Aankhen`` Indeed.
06:44 Khisanth if you are normal any thing you thought of is likely to have been thought of by other people already!
06:45 luqui but the converse is not necessarily true
06:45 luqui smart people can have pedestrian ideas, but the genius/hubris to actually do them :-)
06:45 Aankhen`` Heh.
06:45 geoffb I would argue that even the smartest people are so strongly influenced by past creations that it's unrealistic to think that anything is "completely new"
06:46 luqui "shoulders of giants" and whatnot
06:46 geoffb nodnod
06:46 Aankhen`` Too bad being smart and being creative don't go hand in hand.
06:47 Khisanth but even while standing on the shoulders of giants you still have to know which way to look!
06:47 geoffb heh
06:50 Aankhen`` ROTFLMAO.  GameSpot has a countdown to the release of the F.E.A.R. (ugh) Multiplayer Demo.  Time left?  NaN hours: NaN minutes: NaN seconds.
06:51 geoffb LOL
06:51 geoffb Sorta like seeing a blue screen on a kiosk
06:51 Aankhen`` It's the little, thoughtful touches like this which make me loath GameSpot. :-D
06:52 Khisanth geoffb: or an atm
06:53 geoffb Khisanth, nodnod, though that just kinda worries me.  "You're handling my money using Windows?  Are you INSANE?!?"
06:53 Aankhen`` Heh.
06:53 Aankhen`` LMAO.
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07:15 autrijus yo :)
07:15 geoffb yo, boyee
07:17 geoffb From 1984: "... newer processors handle 32-bit addressing, allowing unimaginably large programs."
07:18 luqui 32 bit in 1984?
07:18 luqui man, I need to catch up on my history
07:18 geoffb I can't remember if the 386 was '84 or '85, but certainly the VAX was around by then
07:20 nothingmuch hah
07:20 nothingmuch the rails team is teh sux0r
07:20 geoffb ?
07:20 nothingmuch http://weblog.rubyonrails.com/archives/2005/​09/24/rails-commit-team-jumps-to-12-members
07:20 nothingmuch after 6 months rails core team members finally got commit bits
07:21 nothingmuch ... from 4 to 8 (!!!)
07:21 nothingmuch uh, there were 4, 8 new ones got acess
07:22 Khisanth pugs has what? over 100? in 7/8 months? :)
07:22 nothingmuch let me check
07:22 dduncan yes
07:22 geoffb "Anarchy with an audit trail"
07:23 autrijus :D
07:23 nothingmuch 127
07:23 Khisanth that :D is slightly disturbing
07:24 QtPlatypus 2^x -1
07:25 autrijus we need to find 128 others
07:25 autrijus and jump to 255 in a run
07:26 * nothingmuch tried recruiting people on perlmonks
07:26 nothingmuch only Detonite came
07:27 nothingmuch we can try #perl
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07:29 Khisanth that would not be a good idea
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07:30 dduncan isn't #perl more a newbie channel? ... I don't know, never went there
07:30 * Khisanth is starting to hate modern software
07:30 nothingmuch Khisanth: hate hate hate
07:30 Khisanth newbie? not really but it is partially a help channel
07:30 geoffb Welcome to the club, Khisanth
07:30 nothingmuch what are you hating?
07:30 geoffb And is clkao involved?
07:30 dduncan doesn't have to be anything ...
07:31 dduncan just the standard 2 minutes of hate
07:31 Khisanth the fact that compiling this thing seem to require over 300MB of space ... SO FAR!
07:31 dduncan I noticed
07:31 nothingmuch ever tried openoffice?
07:31 nothingmuch 2GB
07:31 nothingmuch =(
07:31 Khisanth what the hell is it doing that it's generating that much data?
07:32 * geoffb literally bought his new machine because compiling Pugs became untenable on the old one
07:32 dduncan I think its just GHC
07:32 nothingmuch geoffb++
07:32 Khisanth I didn't know openoffice was written in Haskell ...
07:32 dduncan GHC has to do a lot of work to optimally convert functional constructs to the procedural ones that machines use
07:32 nothingmuch no, it isn't
07:32 autrijus Khisanth: is it all in Pugs.Run?
07:32 dduncan probably lots to keep in memory and cross check, etc
07:32 nothingmuch Khisanth: you can complain to spj et all
07:32 Khisanth or the xorg X server :)
07:32 nothingmuch they had a survey
07:32 autrijus nothingmuch: the space behaviour is indeed better on 6.4.1 here
07:33 Khisanth autrijus: ah this isn't pugs
07:33 autrijus eh heh ;)
07:33 autrijus okay then :)
07:33 nothingmuch oh, then what is it?
07:33 dduncan by the way, is 6.4.1 in release status, or still pre-release?
07:33 Khisanth pugs just eats up several hundred MB while compiling
07:33 dduncan s/release/stable/
07:33 autrijus dduncan: it's full released
07:33 Khisanth or was it the linking ...
07:33 dduncan then I'll have to go get it some time
07:34 dduncan I think the linking is minimal; the compiling is the big memory eater
07:34 geoffb Don't know if it's still true (haven't checked), but one of the problems was that the makefile had GHC run the compile and link in a single pass -- so at one point, both GHC and LD are taking piles of VM
07:34 Khisanth I think top indicated around 500MB that one time I checked and I have 256MB of ram so you can imagine how often I build pugs :)
07:34 autrijus geoffb: indeed... cabalize would fix that
07:34 autrijus I think
07:35 geoffb Don't sell the link short -- I hit 200+ MB in ld at one point, IIRC
07:35 geoffb autrijus, cool
07:36 nothingmuch memory?
07:36 nothingmuch or disk?
07:36 nothingmuch what was Khisanth complaining about?
07:36 Khisanth nothingmuch: the 500MB? that was memory
07:36 nothingmuch the 300?
07:36 geoffb I was talking about VM
07:37 Khisanth nothingmuch: xorg
07:37 nothingmuch oh!
07:37 nothingmuch hehe
07:37 * nothingmuch wonders whether he should have a lambda tatooed on his forehead
07:37 nothingmuch that would make me look as if I know haskell and stuff
07:37 * Khisanth says no
07:38 Khisanth nothing wrong with the lambda but forehead just doesn't seem like a good choice
07:38 nothingmuch ass?
07:38 * luqui wants a lambdacamel tattoo, or if I'm feeling like a wimp, shirt
07:38 nothingmuch i know i know
07:38 nothingmuch palm
07:38 Khisanth hrm
07:38 geoffb The only proper forehead tattoo is "Poor Impulse Control"
07:38 luqui :-)
07:38 Khisanth nothingmuch: across your right eye! :)
07:39 luqui mmm eyelid tattoos.  That could be really creepy
07:39 luqui especially if it's a lambda
07:39 nothingmuch http://images.google.com/images?q=lambda+camel
07:39 luqui it would have to be the left (for lambda) eye
07:39 nothingmuch we need to hack something up
07:39 Khisanth heh contacts with a lambda in the middle :)
07:39 luqui uh yes, that's what I think of when somebody says "lambdacamel"
07:40 nothingmuch if you goodle images for lambda you get a lot of pictures of wannabe-gangstars
07:42 Khisanth http://frmb.org/images/lambda.gif or that!
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07:42 nothingmuch http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/fishstein/im​agegallery.php?catname=POLAND&catsub1=11I
07:43 Khisanth lambda the storm trooper?
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07:45 nothingmuch hello Administrator
07:46 Administrator hoi :/
07:46 Administrator damn
07:46 Administrator wrong nick
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07:47 * autrijus hops on taxi toward the conferece, bbiab &
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07:49 geoffb g'night all
07:50 nothingmuch night
07:53 nothingmuch darn... i can't type a lambda into gimp!
07:53 nothingmuch that's what you get for not pirating expensive software, eh?
07:53 luqui that's odd
07:54 luqui gimp ought to have truetype ability
07:54 nothingmuch it's because it's under osx's x11, and i guess that doesn't get along very well
07:55 nothingmuch nope, not working
07:55 nothingmuch fsck it
07:56 nothingmuch back to unit testing
07:56 nothingmuch can anyone send me a gimp file with a lambda in it, doesn't matter what font, so that I can merge with this file?
07:56 luqui what about the lambdacamel picture?
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09:50 Aankhen`` GHC 6.4 blows up when building Pugs, 6.4.1 blows up politely.  Wonderful.
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10:11 clkao agent autrijus, are you on holiday, there hasn't been updates from you
10:26 wilx Got caught why spying, convicted of treason and executed, in some less-than-deocratic republic.
10:26 wilx while
10:26 wilx Err.
10:42 broquaint The Republic of Paskalovia - The Land of Imperative Righteousness!
10:44 autrijus rehi!
10:45 autrijus Aankhen``: politely how
10:45 autrijus ?
10:47 autrijus er I mean, blow up how?
10:47 broquaint How's the conferencing going, autrijus?
10:48 autrijus broquaint: very well -- nonstop hacking
10:48 broquaint Hacking and listening? Skills!
10:49 autrijus darcs hackers invented a domain specific language for patch merging, resolution, commuting
10:49 autrijus verified by the type system so the implementation can be verified at compile time
10:49 autrijus very cool stuff
10:50 broquaint Nifty! What's the most interesting thing (to you) to come out of the conference?
10:50 autrijus there's too many to list... but mostly that people seem to regard Pugs quite positively
10:50 autrijus and Dylan is the true perl6-without-advertising, not Ruby
10:51 clkao oh oh
10:52 broquaint Have you managed to recruit any more suck^Whackers to Pugs?
10:55 autrijus yes... SyntaxNinja is helping me cabalising pugz
10:55 autrijus and there's many discussions on more efficient compilation and making PIL2 more expressive
10:56 autrijus also I'm now hacking GHC core to make some features Pugs want from GHC available on GHC 6.6
10:56 broquaint You're hacking GHC for Pugs? Madness!
10:56 autrijus it's not bad at all
10:58 broquaint So you're hacking 6.6 features into 6.4?
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10:59 clkao http://www.pugvillage.com/ten_healthy.htm
11:00 wolverian autrijus, cabalising?
11:05 autrijus turn things to cabal
11:05 autrijus but I'm now going to hack with spj some more so bbiab &
11:05 wolverian okay, bye :)
11:08 autrijus :))
11:08 autrijus wolverian: see Pugs.cabal
11:08 autrijus or rather pil.cabal
11:08 wolverian ah, thanks
11:08 wolverian time to go check these linear algebra (really) assignments, though
11:09 wolverian bbl &
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11:43 autrijus rehi
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11:45 knewt autrijus: do you have a moment? had a problem with Module::Install yesterday
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11:46 autrijus knewt: sure
11:46 autrijus what is it?
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11:55 autrijus knewt: mm?
11:56 broquaint What does SPJ think of Pugs, autrijus?
11:59 autrijus broquaint: he thinks it's very cool
11:59 autrijus also for some reason he thought it has been around for far longer than it had.
11:59 autrijus so he was quite positively surprised that it's less than a year old.
12:00 broquaint It has made quite a lot of progress, compared to say, most other languages.
12:01 autrijus :) also he said Pugs exercises several GHC features no-one was exercising to that degree
12:01 autrijus (darcs in comparison was very mild in using GHC extensinos)
12:01 autrijus so he'd be delighted to help making Haskell-as-extended-by-GHC more friendly to Pugs development
12:02 broquaint Nice :)
12:02 autrijus which is the reason of this spanned-through-four-days hackathon with simon and simon :)
12:02 broquaint That's a lot of Haskell!
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12:03 autrijus <- learning through osmosis about how GHC handles parsing, typechecking, syntax, etc
12:03 autrijus and the driving design rationales for them
12:03 autrijus it's fascinating stuff :)
12:04 broquaint learning++ # Makes doing other stuff easier.
12:05 autrijus indeed
12:05 knewt autrijus: it doesn't detect properly that it has write permissions to the cpanp cache directory
12:07 autrijus are you using the latest EU::AI?
12:07 autrijus I think it's a EUAI problem already solved and released
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12:08 autrijus ycheng_: hi! long time no see
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12:14 knewt autrijus: EU::AI 0.63, M::I 0.37
12:14 autrijus knewt: ok... mail the transcript to me -- or better, nopaste it here
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12:16 autrijus knewt: if you want to help debugging, it's in EUAI, look for "-w"
12:16 autrijus or the errormsg
12:19 knewt ah. yeah. found it. would that pick up write permissions granted by group only using a supplemental group?
12:20 autrijus I'm at mercy of perl's -w implementation
12:20 autrijus maybe you want to change to an operational check?
12:20 autrijus i.e. actually try to do some empty things
12:20 autrijus writing $$ in it as a filename and unlink it
12:20 autrijus not sure -- improvise
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12:28 knewt ah, wait a mo. when i first ran Module::Install, EU::AI wasn't installed, so it used it's provided version, which is only 0.61. -w /does/ pass for my cpanp cache path, i've checked
12:29 autrijus good.
12:29 autrijus there's no good way out of this
12:29 autrijus I toyed with the idea of having M::I _compare_ the included EU::AI version with the user machine's
12:29 knewt maybe a new version of Module::Install with an updated included version of EU::AI ?
12:30 autrijus thing is that M::I and EU::AI are currently separate
12:30 autrijus I guess this argues pretty strongly that I should either merge the dist
12:30 autrijus or make M::I depend on the latest EU::AI
12:30 autrijus which would be less intrusive, since not all EUAI users want M::I
12:30 autrijus that makes sense to you?
12:30 knewt yep
12:30 autrijus good. can you make that change?
12:31 knewt yeah, sure. you want a patch sent to rt?
12:31 autrijus no, you are a committer :)
12:31 knewt oh, it's in the same repo?
12:31 autrijus http://svn.openfoundry.org/modinstall/
12:31 autrijus what's your openfoundry id?
12:32 knewt knew
12:32 autrijus ok, you should be able to simply commit
12:32 autrijus to both EUAI and M::I
12:32 autrijus when you're done and want me to look/release let me know
12:32 autrijus it's just like pugs :)
12:32 knewt heh. cool. will do
12:32 autrijus knewt++
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13:06 wolverian wow, interesting paper: http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.​au/v2/psyche-2-05-stapp.html
13:06 integral the real reason for junctions!
13:07 wolverian haha.
13:12 geoffb learning heavily -> brain working hard -> insomnia -> AAAAUUUGGHH
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13:34 nothingmuch msdev is frustrating
13:38 autrijus switch to eclipse? :)
13:38 nothingmuch deep vendor lockin
13:39 nothingmuch we're using vc++ 6.0
13:39 autrijus :-/
13:39 autrijus sounds deep
13:39 nothingmuch tell me about it
13:39 nothingmuch and the thing is that to compile on UNIX we have an entirely independant build system using makefiles
13:39 nothingmuch that assumes so much about how UNIX works that we can't even compile with the makefiles under cygwin
13:40 geoffb ewww
13:40 nothingmuch so there is absolutely no code being shared between the two build systems
13:41 geoffb .oO( No, cat, just because I'm awake does not mean it's time for your breakfast )
13:41 nothingmuch our dog is even worse than that =)
13:41 nothingmuch she thinks that food is provider dependant
13:41 nothingmuch so she is sure she deserves one serving of food per human per mealtime
13:41 geoffb That kind of problem was why at a previous company I ported the entire build system to Perl . . . .
13:41 nothingmuch and the thing is, she's got a dramatic talent
13:42 geoffb heh
13:42 nothingmuch geoffb: i guess we could use a decent system that is portable... maven is prolly good enough
13:42 geoffb Our cats will try that with all sincerity too
13:42 nothingmuch for portability's sake even ant will work
13:42 nothingmuch the makefiles are also reasonably well written
13:42 nothingmuch just not portably enough to work on windows
13:42 nothingmuch without too much effort being wasted
13:43 geoffb nodnod
13:43 nothingmuch and also, the integration that msdev as a UI which everyone likes has with itself as a build system is pretty good
13:43 nothingmuch and no one wants to throw that out the window
13:44 * nothingmuch is pleasantly surprised at the backup ability of his home dir
13:44 geoffb ?
13:44 nothingmuch i thought there were heaps of unnecessary crap
13:44 geoffb ah
13:44 nothingmuch but turns out that if i filter simple things: movies, music, comics i am down to 3-4 CDs
13:45 nothingmuch if i then remove the work src dir, which has VCS (and I normally work via remote desktop or rsh anyway) then that's another 350MB down
13:45 nothingmuch application and browser caches, and IMAP mirror are another 2gb or so
13:45 nothingmuch so now i'm down to less than 2 cds for a full backup
13:46 nothingmuch i'll prolly backup my music to DVD since it doesn't need to be as fault tolerant
13:47 geoffb how is DVD less fault tolerant than CD?
13:47 kgftr|konobi print to paper is the best backup mechanism
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13:47 geoffb Have you seen how bad OCR still is?  :-)
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13:48 kgftr|konobi i never said anything about restoring the backup
13:48 kgftr|konobi =0)
13:50 geoffb A few years back I heard that a good chunk of old (mid-last-century) scientific data is being lost forever because the tapes are degrading faster than the tape readers can transfer the data to new media
13:56 PerlJam geoffb: Have you heard of the longnow foundation?
13:57 geoffb nope
13:58 PerlJam geoffb: see http://longnow.org/10klibrary/library.htm
14:02 geoffb interesting
14:04 geoffb Reminds me of a project that is trying to keep rare languages from dying by creating modern-day rosetta stones, microprinted with parallel translations in hundreds of languages.
14:05 nothingmuch given networking i think that article is moot
14:06 nothingmuch and given open standards, ofcourse
14:07 Khisanth not really moot and it might give sneaky corporations some ideas
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14:08 Khisanth "we don't have bad record keeping! the records just deteriorated!"
14:08 svnbot6 r7181 | fglock++ | * pil-run - say 3|4 "works"
14:08 nothingmuch the problem is with corporate idiots
14:08 nothingmuch that control managorial idiots
14:08 PerlJam geoffb: the longnow foundation started that project
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14:09 geoffb The article points out one networking problem -- dead hyperlinks.  Good thing there's an internet archive now; of course, that doesn't help anything that's not linked into the publicly accessible internet
14:09 evalbot_7181 has joined #perl6
14:09 geoffb PerlJam, oh.  Well, cool then.
14:09 geoffb I guess I had heard of them but had just forgotten the name.
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14:11 PerlJam geoffb: see http://longnow.org/10klibrary/libIdeas.htm
14:11 PerlJam :-)
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14:12 nothingmuch seems like a nice philosophy, though
14:12 * PerlJam wonders if programming languages count as "human languages"
14:13 PerlJam I also wonder how they intend to preserve unwritten languages.
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14:17 SM_ax has left
14:17 SamB micro-phonographs!
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14:42 geoffb Memory failing -- what's the term for a special value used in a data structure to make algorithmic loops have simpler termination conditions?
14:43 geoffb It's right on the tip of my brain, and I can't get it
14:43 geoffb sentinal?
14:43 geoffb hmmm
14:44 PerlJam geoffb: sentinel, yes.
14:44 geoffb thx
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14:53 Limbic_Region geoffb - would you like to see an example of sentinals?
14:53 geoffb Um . . . unless you're about to make a joke, no.  I know what they are and how to use them, I'm just losing memory from insomnia
14:53 geoffb So I couldn't remember the word
14:54 Limbic_Region heh
14:54 Limbic_Region no, wasn't a joke.
14:54 Limbic_Region knowing a term conceptually isn't always enough
14:55 Limbic_Region sometimes people need examples and I just recently came across one
14:55 geoffb Well, if it's cool, paste a link . . . I'm always up for cool code
14:58 Limbic_Region k - just a sec
14:58 geoffb .oO( Thinking Forth has some nice microoptimization tricks )
14:58 Limbic_Region http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=487200
14:59 Limbic_Region Spiriling Integers
14:59 Limbic_Region It is possible more than one implementation used sentinels - I didn't disect them all, but demerph's did
15:00 Limbic_Region mine was pure math btw
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15:05 nothingmuch anyone got an example of sentinal variables? i'm not sure how obvious this is
15:05 nothingmuch so i'm not 100% on the concept
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15:07 geoffb Perl people use them all the time without even realizing it -- ye olde undef at the end of the array trick
15:07 geoffb (or undef at end of iterator or filehandle or ...)
15:08 geoffb Limbic_Region, interesting stuff.
15:08 Khisanth err undef at the end of an array seems somewhat dangerous
15:09 geoffb Khisanth, implicit, not explicit.
15:09 geoffb i.e. definied shift @array
15:09 geoffb er defined, sheesh
15:10 geoffb In any case, my point was that Perl surrounds data sources with sentinel values (undef, in particular) implicitely, so that the programmer need not even know what a sentinel is to use it
15:10 geoffb mmmm, tea
15:11 nothingmuch ah
15:11 nothingmuch i thought this was a manual thing
15:11 nothingmuch a micro optimization of sorts
15:11 geoffb In most languages, it is
15:11 geoffb C is where I first learned it
15:12 nothingmuch can I have an exmaple of how this would be done in say C?
15:12 Limbic_Region sorry geoffb - was chatting in the Monastery chatterbox
15:12 nothingmuch kind of like the \0 at the end of strings?
15:12 geoffb Limbic_Region, is it just the stuff you forward, or is PerlMonks chock full of little puzzles?
15:12 geoffb nothingmuch, yes, exactly.
15:13 nothingmuch so it's a programmer optimization, not a performance one, right?
15:13 Limbic_Region geoffb - I pay particularly close attention to the neat and interesting problems which I would say is 10-15%
15:13 geoffb nothingmuch, actually, it's both.
15:13 geoffb See Sedgewick's _Algorithms in C_ for some nice examples
15:13 nothingmuch how does \0 make things faster as opposed to a <int, char[x]> ?
15:14 geoffb Because 0 is false in C (and asm) also.
15:14 geoffb So lots of string manip stuff becomes while loops, that don't need to waste a (used to be precious) register on a loop counter
15:14 nothingmuch e.g. for strlen, or strcat
15:14 nothingmuch oh, i see
15:15 nothingmuch heh, intel really fucked up everything 20 years, ago, didn't they?
15:15 geoffb YES
15:15 * geoffb omits several nasty comments about IA32
15:15 Limbic_Region I won't digress for the worthwhile conversation anymore other than to say that I plan on making a collection of all the puzzles and interesting problems I have encountered at the Monastery and elsewhere geoffb
15:15 * nothingmuch wonders how much longer the std c lib will live before needing reimplementation in terms of this stuff
15:15 nothingmuch to make it more suitable for modern processors
15:16 nothingmuch nowadays with another register it's probably faster, more secure, and safer to store a length next to a  buffer instead of a buffer with a marker at the end
15:16 geoffb Some stuff was just brilliant, but some of the IA32 decisions sucked the dog dick of Anubis (*cough* obscure movie reference *cough*)
15:16 geoffb Definitely more secure.
15:17 nothingmuch can I have an example of brilliant stuff?
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15:17 geoffb As far as faster, well, that depends.  But it's at least not guaranteed slower
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15:18 nothingmuch well, stcat should just put the string right there
15:18 geoffb Hmmm . . . It's been a long time since my 8088 -> 80386 days
15:18 nothingmuch no need to find the ned of a string
15:18 nothingmuch no need to smash the stack with an unnecessary buffer if the string is very long
15:18 geoffb oh, certainly, having strlen be O(1) would be a HUGE difference for bad code everywhere.
15:19 * nothingmuch conciously uses stlen instead of cachine
15:19 nothingmuch caching
15:19 nothingmuch i perform for programmer efficiency =)
15:19 geoffb Unfortunately a portion of libc pretty much has to do implicit strlen's because the API is borken
15:19 nothingmuch perform optimizations
15:19 nothingmuch aye
15:19 nothingmuch i don't know my way around std c lib... what other parts are starting to show age?
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15:20 geoffb actually, a LOT of it
15:20 geoffb There are replacements for large chunks, but not all C programs use even the ones invented a decade ago, let alone recent stuff
15:21 nothingmuch what about STL in C++?
15:21 geoffb Personally, I recommend just using something like glib (not glibc, the GTK thing) to handle as much of the low level API as possible.  They get to deal with making the headaches sane.
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15:22 geoffb I know less about STL, other than that people sometimes call it "the good part of C++".  I don't use it, because I hate C++.
15:22 * nothingmuch hates C++, but uses it work
15:22 nothingmuch however, i've only done maintenance programming, so I'm not really familiar with STL either
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15:23 mauke what about the stl?
15:23 geoffb I learned to hate C++ by reading Meyers's books
15:24 nothingmuch the reason i hate C++ is that it's so obvious it's faking everything it makes you want to cry
15:24 geoffb When books purporting to teach you the deep stuff about a language just end up making you go EWWWW, that's a bad sign.
15:24 nothingmuch IMHO it's not much more than sugared C
15:24 geoffb What was the original C++ compiler called?  cfront?  
15:25 nothingmuch and C is not much more than well sugared assembler, with easy function calls
15:25 mauke yep
15:25 geoffb It actually *was* just sugared C
15:25 nothingmuch objective C is also sugared C
15:25 nothingmuch much more than C++ is
15:25 qwr if you try to write C or java in C++, its of course awful ;)
15:25 mauke then C++ is a lot more sugar then C
15:25 geoffb Better sugar, from what I hear
15:25 mauke arhg, *than
15:25 nothingmuch but it doesn't feel as ugly
15:25 geoffb I meant Objective C
15:25 sili_ http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/27/p​risoner.abuse.england.ap/index.html omg. america is great. you don't even have to take responsibility for your own actions
15:25 sili_ at least "lightly"
15:26 qwr but its quite good for doing some stuff
15:26 geoffb sili_, unfortunately, those of us in the U.S. who have half a brain have unfortunately been in an unhappy place of late
15:27 geoffb qwr, for example?  (And no fair saying "game programming" because they're only using C++ out of ignorance.)
15:28 nothingmuch geoffb: what alternative is there for game programming?
15:28 nothingmuch shit! my thumb-drive thingy died
15:29 geoffb nothingmuch, actually using more than one language in the game.   In particular, one very high level one (like Perl, say), and one dead fast one for core optimization (C or even assembly)
15:29 qwr geoffb: fast data manipulation - only problem being, that ocaml or haskell is almost always better than c++ for that
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15:30 geoffb The last few years have been filled with papers written about how to build your own scripting engine for games, and the engines they produce suck ASS, because most of the implementers haven't used a real dynamic language
15:31 geoffb qwr, exactly my point.  As far as I know, all domains C++ serves are better served by other languages.
15:31 geoffb It is unfortunately just barely good enough at a few things that people try to hit every fastener with the C++ hammer.
15:31 nothingmuch geoffb: the problem is that the really hard parts (fast AI code, fast graphics code, fast data unpacking, fast networking, etc) is so big that the only thing you can really write in an "easy" language is the UI and the options menu
15:32 geoffb nothingmuch, do you believe that, or do you *know* it?
15:32 geoffb *cough* loaded question
15:32 nothingmuch believe
15:32 nothingmuch admittedly
15:32 geoffb And therein lies the problem.
15:32 nothingmuch but I can't think up of any single part that doesn't benefit from being ultra-fast-cool-stuff in game programming
15:33 SamB well, the blit code, sure
15:33 SamB probably in ASM or C with OpenGL...
15:33 geoffb nothingmuch, that's what APIs are for
15:33 SamB the AI, though
15:33 nothingmuch geoffb: err?
15:33 SamB ... is probably better not done in C.
15:33 geoffb As SamB says, any fast graphics you need, that's OpenGL's job.  (The programmer's job is not to use OpenGL badly.)
15:34 nothingmuch okay, fair enough =)
15:34 SamB though OpenGL is not very fast without a working 3d accelerator...
15:34 geoffb I've benchmarked Perl doing OpenGL . . . using the API well, it's really not that slow
15:35 geoffb SamB, It's been a while since you could buy a non-accelerated computer
15:35 SamB you can still buy them used
15:35 SamB and I got mine a while ago...
15:35 geoffb And I would posit that AI is best done in a domain-specific language, or at worst a good dynamic language
15:35 SamB and it used to be that my Voodoo 3 worked, but then X dropped it for only having 16 MB VRAM
15:36 geoffb . . . with kernels such as influence maps done in C or ASM under an API
15:36 autrijus rehi
15:36 geoffb rehi, autrijus
15:36 nothingmuch hi ho
15:36 * nothingmuch would like to try coding a game some time
15:36 * autrijus is having dinner... some african restaurant
15:36 autrijus looks promising
15:36 nothingmuch sounds promising
15:36 wolverian has joined #perl6
15:37 nothingmuch or at least interesting
15:37 geoffb Now mind you, I'm biased.  I believe (and intend to prove sometime this decade) that a good modern game can be written in Perl.
15:37 slr has quit IRC ("later")
15:37 SamB personally, I think a DSL is a good idea, though you probably want to implement at least the parser in something other than C...
15:37 nothingmuch http://www.projectoffset.com/
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15:38 geoffb SamB, yes, there is the used hardware problem -- but the CPU on such a beast will probably not be up to even doing collision handling for a modern 3D game, let alone the graphics
15:39 geoffb So those boxen are probably best used for 2D
15:39 geoffb And I recognize the Voodoo problem,
15:39 * nothingmuch wonders how useful GPUs can be for general applications
15:39 SamB geoffb: I don't care about the modern commercial 3D games really.
15:39 geoffb which I think sucks, really
15:39 SamB I'd just like to be able to play the simple stuff
15:41 geoffb nodnod
15:41 geoffb nothingmuch, what about project offset caught your eye?
15:41 nothingmuch the graphics
15:41 geoffb The joys of being able to assume HDR support
15:41 nothingmuch i think there is no way they are that much more efficient than anyone else
15:41 nothingmuch HDR support?
15:42 SamB so basically I just play stuff that uses software for graphics
15:42 nothingmuch what I suspect about them is that they really have a deep understanding of where they can fake it
15:42 geoffb High Dynamic Range pixel values -- basically floating point brightness
15:42 nothingmuch ah
15:42 geoffb SamB, fair enough
15:43 nothingmuch isn't there a practical limit of about 3 stops?
15:43 nothingmuch in presentation?
15:43 geoffb nothingmuch, HDR has a MASSIVE effect on believability, because the world is HDR, and our eyes are tuned to it.  The only reason 0-255 has lasted is that monitors are non-linear, I suspect
15:44 geoffb nothingmuch, post-processing -- bloom, motion blur, etc.
15:44 nothingmuch oh, logically you mean
15:44 geoffb Or even, changing stop and having the color balance remain the same
15:44 geoffb nothingmuch, yes
15:44 nothingmuch still, you cannot display on any monitor a difference of more than 3 stops or so, right?
15:44 nothingmuch okay
15:45 SamB so you change the range being displayed, right?
15:45 nothingmuch SamB: with real monitors you truncate two sides, yes
15:45 geoffb Good monitors are in the range of several hundred to one dynamic range.  Which in itself is actually more precise than 8 bits on a linear scale -- hence 10 and 12 bits per channel on high end workstation systems
15:46 nothingmuch slide film at it's best (e.g. fuji velvia) can store about 4.5 stops
15:46 nothingmuch but you can't print that on anything
15:46 * geoffb doesn't remember the stop conversions off the top of his head
15:46 nothingmuch hybrid ink/light display systems can give significantly more than that, but they are expensive
15:46 nothingmuch geoffb: 1 stop is 2x more light
15:47 geoffb Um . . . then a good monitor is like 9-12 stops
15:47 SamB so like you adjust the conversion depending on whether the scene is in a building or outside in the bright sunlight?
15:47 nothingmuch that doesn't make sense
15:47 geoffb yeah, hence my confusion.
15:47 nothingmuch i think maybe it interpolates to around 4 maybe, from 12 bits
15:48 * geoffb is used to thinking entirely in terms of linear dynamic range . . . .
15:48 nothingmuch stops is a physical measuremeant
15:48 geoffb nothingmuch, yes, I know.
15:49 * nothingmuch has done a lot of spot metering lately
15:49 nothingmuch gives a lot of perspective on things
15:49 geoffb I meant, 500:1 contrast (real, not advertized crap), means darkest colors and brightest colors seperated by ~ 2^9
15:49 nothingmuch but that is not literally the ratio of the amount of photons leaving the screen, is it?
15:50 * nothingmuch wonders if high responsiveness digital ink + brighter lights will make screens do more than they do today
15:50 geoffb Hmmm, I thought it was . . . but I could be wrong.  I do know that the mapping of pixel values to photons is a mapping of ^2.2 or so
15:51 * nothingmuch is too tired to do the math
15:51 geoffb nod
15:51 * geoffb too
15:51 geoffb How did we get on this discussion, anyway?
15:51 geoffb Oh right, C++
15:51 nothingmuch WRT game design:
15:52 nothingmuch i think what I would like to do is make a multi threaded approach to things
15:52 nothingmuch separate the aspects
15:52 geoffb Modern processors would be happy with that.  :-)
15:52 nothingmuch with one smart core in a HLL, that decides how much work each thread can do
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15:53 nothingmuch so, for example, if the scene is high movement, lots of action, the user is moving fast, and it's a FPS perspective, far away detail can just be blurred nicely, to pretend there is detail
15:53 geoffb c.f. http://www.broadwell.org/gra​phics/pigge/docs/trends.html
15:53 nothingmuch wheras in a birds eye view, other interpolations could be made
15:53 nothingmuch this is just beceause fog really pisses me off
15:53 geoffb And http://www.broadwell.org/graph​ics/pigge/docs/opt-notes.html , which I've been adding to this morning
15:54 * nothingmuch wonders if some day assmebler will be a dependency tree
15:54 nothingmuch this is a really nice concept for cell oriented processing
15:54 geoffb nothingmuch, yeah, overdone fog just blows
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15:55 autrijus new discovery today: a well-written, complete CodeGen interface to .Net 1.0
15:55 autrijus in haskell under bsd3 license :)
15:55 geoffb oooh
15:55 nothingmuch http://www.vision.net.au/~pete​r/pdspc/cradle%20mountain.jpg
15:56 nothingmuch given a scene like this, i'd interpolate it so that the the mountian is in simple polygons, but appears to blernd
15:56 nothingmuch it's slow movement WRT the user means that it can be panned instead of really implementing perspective
15:56 autrijus actually, it's for ILX, so it's somewhat like between 1.0 and 2.0
15:56 autrijus "2.0 without generics" etc
15:56 nothingmuch the sky has to be non white
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15:56 geoffb What level is Mono at these days
15:56 nothingmuch but the hue it is in this image
15:57 nothingmuch the trees and stuff apear to be color blobs from a distance, so they should have lots of interpolation to make sure they don't look like they're sort of moving all the time
15:57 autrijus Mono 1.2 is .Net 2.0 I think
15:57 geoffb k
15:57 nothingmuch nearby objects like the push obviously have to be made 3d-ish with great care
15:57 nothingmuch because as the player moves the change of perspective in these things makes a huge difference
15:59 nothingmuch nowadays all i see from game engines is "fade it till it's white, the user won't notice", and changing the shape of simple objects like trees
15:59 nothingmuch into simpler ones, at a certain threshold
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16:12 svnbot6 r7182 | fglock++ | * pil-run - when a sub is called with a junction argument, it returns a junction
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16:30 svnbot6 r7183 | iblech++ | * Usual svn properties.
16:30 svnbot6 r7183 | iblech++ | * t/unspecced/evaluation_order.t: More subtests and test fixes.
16:30 svnbot6 r7183 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL::PAssign, PIL::PBind: Evaluate the LHS first, then eval the RHS
16:30 svnbot6 r7183 | iblech++ |   in assignment and binding.
16:30 svnbot6 r7183 | iblech++ |   (This means evaluation_order.t passes 9/10 now.)
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16:31 vladtz_ hi
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16:32 vladtz_ I just redefined a sub (not a multi), shouldn Pugs throw a fit on that?
16:33 Khisanth heh has that part been implemented yet? :)
16:35 vladtz_ Just noticed that redefining a sub just gives me the latest one
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16:37 geoffb heh: '... the notion of a “typical development cycle” makes
16:37 geoffb as much sense as a “typical noise.”'
16:37 nothingmuch dinner
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16:41 * Khisanth stares at the funny looking quotes
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16:42 geoffb Khisanth, which?  Mine?
16:42 Khisanth yes
16:42 geoffb Just using different quoting around a cut-and-paste that used "
16:43 geoffb oh wait, that's odd
16:43 geoffb Hmmm, the paste must have included some odd quote
16:43 vladtz_ properly nested I might add
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16:59 * autrijus starts integing mm2 into hs
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17:00 geoffb autrijus++
17:00 geoffb Now for iblech . . .
17:20 stevan autrijus: mm2 intergration?
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17:22 stevan autrijus: let me know if you have any questions,.. I am around today,..
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17:42 svnbot6 r7184 | fglock++ | * pil-run - fixed junction stringification
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17:51 geoffb Someone took a hash definition from my Perl source code, imported it into Excel, and made changes there.
17:51 geoffb How could that possibly be the right thing to do?
17:53 * geoffb does "save as text, answering several lame warning dialogs, write Perl script to strip off MS stupidity, manually paste result back into original source file
17:53 geoffb BAH
17:53 Juerd Did you hard code something that the user wanted to edit?
17:54 geoffb We're merging data sources.  In this case, we're changing keys from his system to mine.
17:55 * geoffb generally hates "Excel is a text editor" mentality
17:57 geoffb The ugly thing is that instead of setting the import options so that at least the keys and values were in separate columns, he imported the entire hash definition into one column.
17:57 geoffb So fields contain stuff like "    key  => 'value',"
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18:00 svnbot6 r7185 | fglock++ | * pil-run - Junction.values()
18:00 svnbot6 r7185 | fglock++ |   - this doesn't work yet, because it tries to call values() in the Junction elements
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18:33 Juerd geoffb: I hate it with Word... Fortunately, I haven't encountered that people use Excel for editing text yet.
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19:06 svnbot6 r7186 | fglock++ | * perl5/Value - remove duplicates from junctions such as (0|1|1|1|2)
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19:27 geoffb Juerd, lucky you.  :-)
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19:30 svnbot6 r7187 | luqui++ | Fixed the covariant problem on the union type expansion.
19:30 svnbot6 r7187 | luqui++ | There's still a little inconsistency with factories: unions
19:30 svnbot6 r7187 | luqui++ | don't really define factories.  Either we need to redefine
19:30 svnbot6 r7187 | luqui++ | factory, or we need to kill the abstraction, because it
19:30 svnbot6 r7187 | luqui++ | just ceases to be useful anymore.
19:31 fglock putter: ping
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19:52 nothingmuch every time i think i get a grip on just how lazy haskell is, something new comes in and shows me to what extent it really is
19:52 * nothingmuch just resolved listing two from http://www.haskell.org/tmrwik​i/WhyAttributeGrammarsMatter in his head
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20:01 svnbot6 r7188 | fglock++ | * new journal
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20:07 svnbot6 r7189 | fglock++ | * perl5/Code - added Junction support to multisubs
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20:09 fglock implementing Junctions was amazingly easy - about 60-80 lines across various modules
20:09 fglock I hope it is correct
20:14 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
20:15 Aankhen`` G'night.
20:15 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Induhvidual quote: "I don't understand the big deal about the price of oil. I mean, I only put oil in my car every now and the")
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20:48 dduncan seen ingy
20:48 jabbot dduncan: ingy was seen 35 days 18 hours 52 minutes 6 seconds ago
20:49 dduncan ping ingy ... about your only.pm module
21:00 nothingmuch dduncan: once you catch him, tell him i want the patch to Test::Base committed
21:00 nothingmuch and that if he ++s me about it again i'll kick him on the nose... he should just commit it instead of giving me karma
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21:01 dduncan in my case, I have issues that his only.pm hasn't been updated since last spring, and seems to have problems, failing its own tests etc
21:01 nothingmuch did you post a bug in RT?
21:01 dduncan that's another discussion item
21:02 dduncan there are already bugs there, all marked 'new' ... he seems to be ignoring them
21:02 dduncan they range in age from a few weeks to 2 years
21:02 nothingmuch hmm
21:02 meppl has quit IRC (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
21:02 nothingmuch maybe his mail address is misconfigured
21:02 meppl has joined #perl6
21:03 nothingmuch i'd try to find a socialtext email address
21:03 nothingmuch it's more likely he won't ignore that
21:03 dduncan what do you mean by 'socialtext'? ... is that an email he normally talks to people with?
21:03 nothingmuch it's his job
21:04 nothingmuch and since his work is mostly network based, i bet he has to read it to communicate with his coworkers
21:04 nothingmuch autrijus might also know how to get him
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  r7196@not:  autrijus | 2005-09-28 11:04:59 +0300
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  r7197@not:  autrijus | 2005-09-28 11:28:35 +0300
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * beginning of the main pugs cabal file
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  r7198@not:  autrijus | 2005-09-28 12:36:41 +0300
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * some more metadata for Pugs.cabal.
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  r7211@not:  autrijus | 2005-09-28 21:27:14 +0300
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * releng: normalize and todoize tests.
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  r7221@not:  autrijus | 2005-09-29 00:05:29 +0300
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * Remove the unreferenced Pugs.AST.Types.
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * Move the ill-named Pugs.Context back inside Pugs.Types.
21:13 svnbot6 r7190 | autrijus++ |  * Reuse its Tolkien quote for the underquoted Pugs.Version.
21:13 svnbot6 r7191 | fglock++ | * perl5/Junction - fixed boolean junctions such as ?(1|0)
21:14 nothingmuch heh
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21:30 autrijus finally got some network
21:30 autrijus journal up. :)
21:30 svnbot6 r7192 | fglock++ | * perl5/Scalar - fixed Scalar->isa() when the content is unboxed
21:34 stevan hey autrijus, any MM 2 hacking today?
21:35 autrijus stevan: yes, mostly on the reading part
21:35 stevan ah
21:35 autrijus ...but then promptly sidetracked into comparing it with dylan
21:35 stevan dylan++ # the language and Bob
21:36 stevan how does it compare to dylan?
21:36 autrijus Bob++
21:36 dduncan so you hacked GHC itself ... did they say when 6.6 would be stable?
21:36 autrijus dduncan: yes, end of this year
21:36 stevan C3 is actually from Dylan originally
21:36 autrijus they want to have a faster release cycle
21:36 autrijus for 6.6, due to the SMP feature
21:36 dduncan and at that time, presumably 6.6 will be a new minimum requirement for Pugs?
21:36 autrijus multiprocessor GHC plus STM is gotta rock
21:36 stevan some of the MRO test suite actually uses some examples from the oroginal Dylan c3 paper
21:37 autrijus dduncan: sure
21:37 stevan autrijus: nice bpierce was there
21:37 autrijus stevan: favourably, I'd say, except we don't have singleton methods
21:38 * stevan has been hacking up all the untyped lambda calculus examples from TaPL today
21:38 autrijus aka per-object methods
21:38 autrijus aka eigenclasses
21:38 stevan autrijus: yes, I have been giving that some thought
21:38 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
21:39 stevan nothing has come to mind yet, other than the obvious solution of augmenting the instance type
21:39 autrijus the rest I think I have a good grasp on
21:39 autrijus but I'm still struggling a bit to grok psyche
21:39 stevan but it seems to me there is a better solution out there
21:39 stevan autrijus: its very simple
21:39 stevan Role is an instance of a Class
21:39 stevan obviously
21:40 autrijus sure, I understand the concept
21:40 autrijus the drawing
21:40 autrijus so explain FETCH to me
21:40 stevan which one?
21:40 stevan in ::Package
21:40 autrijus in psyche
21:40 autrijus for ::Role
21:40 autrijus afte
21:40 autrijus # TODO ... implement the package interface
21:40 stevan oh,.. one sec,...
21:41 stevan ah,.. this is the same as the ::Class FETCH
21:41 svnbot6 r7193 | fglock++ | * perl5/Junction - added support for "if", as in:
21:41 svnbot6 r7193 | fglock++ |   if all(1..3)==(1|2) { say "ok" } else { say "not ok" }
21:42 stevan for the most part at least
21:42 stevan all FETCH is, is the way to get at the symbol table
21:42 dduncan the journal is very interesting as usual ... thanks for sharing
21:42 autrijus so FETCH is the pkg spec
21:42 stevan ::Package just grabs right from the %:namespace attribute
21:42 autrijus dduncan: no prob :) I think I'm getting more journaling slices of time
21:42 stevan and ::Class must also attempt to fetch methods and attributes
21:43 autrijus ahhhh.
21:43 autrijus that's the link I'm missing
21:43 stevan this is per @Larry[0]
21:43 stevan see my recent Package, Module Class thread I think
21:43 autrijus k
21:44 autrijus so the only differnece is
21:44 evalbot_7192 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:44 autrijus Roles doesn't need the "for" key
21:44 stevan for?
21:44 evalbot_7193 has joined #perl6
21:44 autrijus    $params->{for} = 'instance' if not exists $params->{for};
21:45 autrijus since the "role methods" doesn't exist as such
21:45 autrijus is that the idea?
21:45 stevan the type of the method in a role is irrelevant
21:46 stevan only the class cares because it has to put them in the proper tables
21:46 stevan s/tables/method dispatch tables/
21:46 stevan Role just holds onto them until they are put into the class
21:47 autrijus k. got it completely.
21:47 autrijus I think I can implement it tomorrow :)
21:47 autrijus will ask more questions as they come by
21:48 stevan one key think to keep in mind is that Role as implemented in the metamodel is more permissive than is speced
21:48 stevan it is more like how Scala does Roles (which they call traits)
21:48 stevan so all classes can be treated as Roles
21:48 autrijus stevan++ # nice concise formulations
21:48 autrijus right, it's more natural to my brain anyways
21:48 stevan cool
21:48 stevan :)
21:48 autrijus and I think larry is also leaning that way
21:48 autrijus gradually and one bit at a time, but nevertheless
21:48 stevan those restrictions should be in the metamodel anyway
21:48 autrijus aye
21:49 stevan they should be in the language
21:49 autrijus you mean it's up for compiler to enforec those.
21:49 autrijus I'm inclined to agree :)
21:49 stevan yes
21:49 autrijus but then
21:49 autrijus that means at runtime you can wreck all havoc.
21:49 autrijus since no compiler will protect you then
21:49 stevan no, we just dont expose it to the user
21:49 autrijus ...which is probably a feature
21:49 autrijus ah. hm.
21:49 stevan it is not part of the protocol
21:49 autrijus okay... so no runtime reroling
21:49 stevan so if you do it,.. undefined results
21:50 stevan most of this functionality would involve the &resolve method
21:50 stevan and that should not be in the public MOP
21:50 stevan the compiler should call that
21:51 stevan if that is not exposed, I think control can be easily retained
21:51 autrijus ok. so the protocol is not yet laid out?
21:51 stevan that is docs/s12.5.pod
21:51 autrijus er, I mean in code.
21:51 stevan it will document what the user will have access too
21:51 stevan no... the MOP is just a documented API to the metamodel
21:51 autrijus ok... I can see that
21:52 autrijus that's fine with me
21:52 stevan we can choose to enforce what is exposed to the user level or just tell them "it is here, but dont touch it"
21:53 stevan this is how CLOS is,.. because they had to allow for all sorts of insanity,.. they left some parts open,.. but did not document in the CLOS MOP spec
21:53 stevan so if you were brave enough,.. you could do anything you wanted
21:53 stevan but no guarantee on the results of it
21:53 autrijus maybe we can prefix all such things with unsafe ;)
21:53 autrijus unsafeReblessRoles
21:53 stevan yes
21:53 autrijus unsafeAddMethod
21:53 stevan addmethod shoudl be safe
21:53 autrijus true
21:54 autrijus unsafeRemoveMethod
21:54 stevan that too
21:54 autrijus hm.
21:54 stevan not sane.. but safe
21:54 stevan you are only affecting classes
21:54 * autrijus tries to look at it from the runtime pov
21:54 stevan once a class is composed (all the roeles are flattened into it), you can do anything you want
21:54 autrijus mmm yeah. sorta. I think you are correct.
21:55 stevan the thing with roles is to remember that once they are consumed by the class,.. changes to the role do not propagate back
21:56 autrijus right
21:56 stevan I am interested to see how this gets integrated into the runtime
21:57 stevan putter and I had many discussions about that,. and I was never really sure how it would all fit together
21:57 autrijus I've spent lots of time thinking about container types and MMs and the symbol table and the environment
21:58 autrijus I'm now leaning toward swapping out the runtime en masse but keep the old Exp data type
21:58 svnbot6 r7194 | fglock++ | * pil-run - small fix in junction constructor
21:59 autrijus since preserving Eval is important
21:59 autrijus but so is getting the OO part correct
21:59 autrijus but I think I want a release first soon
21:59 stevan so will things like arrays, hashes, scalar, code be implemented as primatives?
21:59 evalbot_7193 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:59 autrijus stevan: yes, exactly, since the current semantics in Types.* and autoderef is just broken
21:59 stevan then later wrapped by the metamodel
21:59 autrijus (not thru our fault)
21:59 evalbot_7194 has joined #perl6
21:59 autrijus anyway, the release is due to Parrot 0.3.0 and GHC 6.4.1
21:59 autrijus need to work with both
22:00 autrijus mm, 1am now
22:00 autrijus I should probably catch some sleep if I'm to learn anything about Curry tomorrow
22:00 stevan :)
22:01 stevan I need to go eat dinner myself
22:01 stevan good to talk to you again,. it has been a while :)
22:01 autrijus k. see you tomorrow :)))
22:01 stevan night
22:01 autrijus yeah, it's been a very long month and half
22:01 autrijus good to see that pugs was still in very good hands :)
22:02 autrijus zzz &
22:02 dduncan night
22:04 nothingmuch woot!
22:04 nothingmuch exceptuations seem like they've been accepted
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22:11 ingy hi nothingmuch
22:11 nothingmuch ingy!
22:11 nothingmuch please commit Test::Base
22:11 nothingmuch err, the patch to thereof
22:12 justatheory has joined #perl6
22:12 nothingmuch and fix dduncan 's bug in only
22:12 dduncan hi ingy
22:13 dduncan I was just about to write into RT, but I'll tell you here first
22:13 ingy ok...
22:14 ingy nothingmuch: where is the patch?
22:14 nothingmuch i forget now... but it's against 0.43 =(
22:14 nothingmuch one second, i'll find it
22:14 dduncan with the newest only.pm, and when using a module whose version is 0.12 old-style, saying "use only 'Foo' => '0.13-'" does not produce an error
22:14 nothingmuch do you mind doing integration?
22:15 dduncan however, saying either '0.130-' or '0.13' does produce an error
22:15 dduncan while '0.130-' would have the desired effect, one should be able to match the version format they are used to, and that your documentation shows, which is plain '0.13-'
22:16 dduncan on separate matters with only.pm, your test suite fails most of its tests, and all the RT items for it seem to have been ignored
22:17 xinming_Beijing make: *** No rule to make target `src/Pugs/Context.hs', needed by `pugs'.  Stop.
22:17 xinming_Beijing Is it the right action for command `svn update && make` right now?
22:17 dduncan my specific situation is that List::MoreUtils 0.12 fixed a bug in 0.11, and I want to require '0.12-', but I'm not confident that only.pm will enforce my dependency in its current state
22:19 geoffb xinming_Beijing, have you made clean recently?
22:19 geoffb aut* just merged that file into another
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22:20 nothingmuch http://www.cs.uu.nl/groups/ST/P​rojects/ehc/current-ehc-src.tgz
22:20 nothingmuch bah
22:20 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/test_base.patch
22:20 nothingmuch Test::Base 0.43
22:21 fglock_ has joined #perl6
22:21 nothingmuch adds support for post filter skip/todo
22:21 nothingmuch and prints out a plan
22:22 nothingmuch http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harror​th/misc/Forth/t/07_gforth_style_recursion.t
22:22 nothingmuch http://feather.perl6.nl/~nothingmuch/harro​rth/misc/Forth/t/lib/Forth/Interp/Test.pm
22:22 nothingmuch as you can see, the skip filter will check if the currently used backend is in the skip list
22:22 nothingmuch and it will set skip to be a true value
22:22 nothingmuch if not, skip becomes false
22:23 geoffb stevan, is there anything relevant to understanding MM2 that is outside perl5/Perl6-MetaModel2.0/ ?
22:23 dduncan the following line is a test ...
22:23 dduncan seen ingy
22:23 jabbot dduncan: ingy was seen 9 minutes 22 seconds ago
22:23 dduncan seems right
22:23 nothingmuch dduncan: i think jabbot was missing for a long time
22:23 dduncan so it really was over 30 days since last checkin
22:23 nothingmuch not necessarily
22:23 xinming_Beijing geoffb: hmm, In fact, I didn't, never do this. :-)
22:24 dduncan seen asfdafdasfds
22:24 jabbot dduncan: I havn't seen asfdafdasfds, dduncan
22:24 geoffb There's probably a workaround, but I would consider just make clean if I were you
22:25 nothingmuch http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogge​r_log/perl6?date=2005-09-14,Wed#l408
22:25 xinming_Beijing geoffb: hmm, Ok, I did just now
22:25 geoffb And did a subsequent make do the trick?
22:25 dduncan ingy, when testing your only.pm changes, also make sure you're up to the newest version.pm ; it was updated several times since the last only.pm release; the current one is 0.48, released sept 14
22:25 geoffb I guess it would take a while to know . . .
22:26 nothingmuch ingy: ping
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22:33 stevan geoffb: re: mm2.0 please note the docs are slightly out of date
22:34 stevan geoffb: other than that familiarity with the concept of object metamodels and perl 6's object model should be the only req.
22:34 * stevan dinner &
22:34 geoffb stevan, OK, understood.  When they are fixed, would you mind making that clear in the commit log?
22:35 geoffb That way I can just watch svnbot to know when it is best to go diving into the docs.
22:35 geoffb :-)
22:35 * geoffb has been promising himself to study stevan's MM work in more depth for a while now
22:35 nothingmuch geoffb: just dive in
22:35 nothingmuch it's simpler than it seems
22:36 geoffb MM 2 being folded into both P5 and Haskell backends is the kick I needed
22:36 nothingmuch start with the mini metamodel
22:36 fglock has left
22:36 geoffb nothingmuch, I have to balance that particular studying opportunity with all the other stuff I am currently studying.
22:36 geoffb And then there's $work . . . .
22:37 nothingmuch well, i doubt the docs can make it much simpler - the code is readable
22:37 fglock_ has left
22:37 nothingmuch very readable (stevan++)
22:37 geoffb I like to time task switches with things being all happy when I get there.  Lazy, I know.  :-)
22:37 geoffb nothingmuch, nodnod, fair enough.
22:37 nothingmuch and the concept is very clean - unlike many other metamodels it really clicks in your brain
22:38 geoffb That's good to hear.  Means stevan probably has it Right.
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23:36 nothingmuch i think we care about this: http://archive.cs.uu.nl/pub/RUU/​CS/techreps/CS-2002/2002-031.pdf
23:36 nothingmuch autrijus: please read when you wake up
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