Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-09-30

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:36 svnbot6 r7206 | Darren_Duncan++ | /modules/Rosetta-Incubator : added this new sub-project folder, under which a rapid rewrite of the Rosetta database access framework for Perl 6 will take place
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04:02 Khisanth hrm TSa is quite confusing
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05:51 putter new PIL-Run on mm2 smoke up.  not bad.  speed is still an issue.  some tests failed due to time limits.  eg, even with a separate, extended time limit, it looks like perl5.t didn't finish.
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05:52 putter re speed, it looks like there are some low-hanging fruit in P6::C/V.  todo.
05:52 putter good night all &
05:52 putter fglock++ stevan++
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06:05 autrijus putter++
06:05 * autrijus pulls and takes a look
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06:06 putter please disregard fruit comment.  performance analysis while falling asleep is notably error prone.
06:06 putter &
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06:07 autrijus :D
06:07 Supaplex hehe
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06:24 obra heya autrijus
06:28 autrijus yo obra
06:28 dduncan greetings
06:30 dduncan fyi, tomorrow I start writing A LOT of Perl 6 code ... the whole Rosetta framework in fact, not just a tiny corner of it that is LKT
06:30 dduncan at the same time, the perl 5 version is being rewritten
06:30 obra dduncan: what do you use rosetta for?
06:30 dduncan they are both being rewritten together, with the perl 6 version being the driving one
06:30 dduncan it is a database access layer
06:30 dduncan you use it like DBI
06:30 obra dduncan: sorry. what do YOU use it for?
06:31 dduncan doing a lot of the tedious work for me when I write applications
06:31 dduncan for example, I'm making a program to sell that is useful for genealogy, among other things
06:32 dduncan I'll also be building an automator for a creative arts competition above it
06:32 dduncan the latter one automates submissions and voting
06:32 * autrijus is watching a live demo of Visual Haskell
06:33 dduncan said genealogy plus program is the foundation for a new business I plan to start
06:33 autrijus can't wait until it's ported to Eclipse / hIDE
06:33 obra Visial Haskell?
06:33 obra Visual, even
06:33 obra url?
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06:33 autrijus http://haskell.org/visualhaskell/
06:33 dduncan obra, you make PPI right?
06:33 obra no. that's alias
06:33 obra I make DBIx::SearchBuilder ;)
06:33 obra also, RT
06:34 dduncan oh
06:34 dduncan I confused you with someone I met at OSCON who did PPI
06:34 dduncan his nick was 4 letters
06:34 autrijus "adam" was 4 letters, but his nick is Alias
06:34 obra The PPI guy is Alias
06:35 dduncan maybe that's the one?
06:35 dduncan whoever it was, while I was at OSCON, on wednesday morning I messaged in this channel, asking to meet up, and said person said they were in the presenter's lounge
06:35 svnbot6 r7207 | autrijus++ | * Make MIME::Encode use multisubs as they are meant to.
06:36 dduncan I went there, and I think he said he was giving the PPI talk
06:36 Khisanth that doesn't actually sound like alias
06:37 dduncan I think it was the PPI talk ... I know it was some talk that was about a Perl topic but not Perl 6 / new stuff
06:38 Khisanth well by wednesday I assume you mean two days ago?
06:38 dduncan no, I meant wednesday August 3rd, middle of OSCON 2005
06:39 Khisanth oh that was probably him then :)
06:39 dduncan okay, my memory may be bad about the 4-letter name thing
06:39 dduncan anyway ...
06:39 Khisanth well his name is Adam
06:40 dduncan that's probably him then
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06:40 dduncan on a different matter, what's the status of PIL v2 and this Meta Model 2 stuff? ...
06:41 dduncan I get the impression that what I'm making will require them
06:42 autrijus dduncan: MM2 is being deployed to the PILv1 runtime on perl5
06:42 dduncan I'm currently under the impression that, if one simply takes a fresh subversion download, does a plain invocation of the Makefile.PL etc without any special arguments, they don't get any back end using PIL yet
06:42 dduncan I could be wrong
06:43 autrijus dduncan: er, that's wrong
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06:43 autrijus ./pugs -BPerl5 -e 'say 123'
06:43 autrijus will compile to PIL, then compile to Perl5, then run ti
06:43 autrijus same for -BJavaScript
06:43 dduncan so the distinction is  a runtime thing, not something done at make time then?
06:44 dduncan I'll have to try that then
06:44 dduncan obviously, while I'm here daily, I miss a lot when I'm not looking too closely
06:45 autrijus er, I mean -BJS
06:45 autrijus yeah, the distinction is a runtime thing
06:45 autrijus eventually the goal is to export the pugs api out to perl5 XS
06:45 autrijus so you can inline perl6 code and have them compiled to native perl5
06:46 autrijus to run alongside with your perl5 modules and share a runtime/GC/debugger
06:46 autrijus so pugs become a huge "source filter" that translates perl6 to perl5
06:46 autrijus so to speak
06:46 dduncan I C
06:46 autrijus that will require cabalization, which I'm working on
06:47 autrijus at this moment though, instead of linking in pugs, having perl5 call out with system("pugs", "-CPerl5") is probably sufficient
06:47 autrijus it will be cool to hook that up with lib/Inline/Pugs
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06:48 dduncan so, just to clarify, if I want to write Perl 6 code using metamodel etc features, and I don't care about the backend, is the perl 5 one the most complete?
06:48 autrijus yes.
06:48 dduncan okay, thats what I wanted to know
06:48 autrijus but javascript is otherwise more complete on general features
06:48 dduncan thanks
06:48 dduncan I see
06:48 autrijus and unless you want to hack the metamodel, you probably want the js one
06:49 dduncan I'll look into that then
06:49 autrijus but perl5 one is coming along quite nicely
06:49 dduncan my situation is like this, I want to be able to do these things that didn't work a few months ago:
06:49 dduncan 1. declare multiple classes inside one file and have the order not matter such that they just work when invoking each other
06:50 dduncan 2. test a function argument to see if it is an object of a particular class
06:50 autrijus 2. I think works in various runtimes
06:50 dduncan 3. use private attributes
06:50 autrijus 1. is a parser issue -- I'll take a look
06:51 autrijus 3. may work in either js or perl5, not terribly sure
06:51 dduncan I seem to recall you said #1 had to do with the parser forgetting things
06:51 autrijus yeah
06:51 dduncan now I thought that once the transition to PIL 2 was done, that parser problem would be gone
06:51 dduncan because PIL is the memory for the parser
06:52 dduncan so the parser doesn't forget things
06:52 autrijus yes, that is correct, except that part is still in its infancy
06:52 autrijus the runtimes are by now all more capable than the parser
06:52 autrijus in terms of the OO semantics they confer
06:52 autrijus now I'm getting hack time, I'll definitely remedy this
06:54 dduncan fyi, I have been learning some things by observing the progress with Pugs' design, and other projects like PPI, ...
06:54 dduncan there are numerous parallels between what the Rosetta etc needs to do and what is being done here
06:55 autrijus oh?
06:55 dduncan eg, SQL::Routine is analagous to PPI
06:55 autrijus ah indeed, you are working with SQL what we are working with Perl
06:55 dduncan they store representations of actions to perform
06:55 dduncan yes
06:55 dduncan the ::SQLParser module is like the parser
06:56 dduncan combined, the ::SQLBuilder and ::Generic, to a lesser extent Rosetta itself, are like the back-ends
06:56 autrijus yup
06:56 dduncan I think that my decision to rewrite should greatly speed up my development progress, and have something useful to show in less time
06:57 geoffb autrijus, got a few minutes?
06:57 autrijus geoffb: sure!
06:57 autrijus (I'm multiplexing with the conference so reply may be a bit intermittent)
06:57 dduncan I have been going relatively slowly over the last 2 years so far, because everything was revising or building on what was previously there, and that I was making a point of explaining everything that changed in the Changes file
06:57 geoffb I'm thinking of doing next week's blog entry on -Ofun . . . wondered what kind of conscious decisions you made to foster that optimization, if any
06:58 autrijus geoffb: oh. plenty.
06:58 geoffb do tell
06:58 dduncan but largely its my tendency to be a ... packrabbit?  forget term ...
06:58 autrijus working code is fun than mere ideas
06:58 geoffb (from your kb to a big audience, with only 1 week latency!)
06:58 dduncan I've had a great difficulty in throwing things away, once I spent the time making them, so new stuff tended to just be added to it
06:59 autrijus so whenever there is a choice I do a quick-n-dirty prototyping in whatever language
06:59 autrijus and refactor as things go
06:59 dduncan in my case, the last 3 years was mostly refactoring, and little new stuff
06:59 autrijus putter's pilrun stuff -- originally crude_repl -- is a good example
06:59 geoffb nodnod
07:00 dduncan in a way, although it doesn't actually work, my previous efforts so far are like the internals of perl 5
07:00 autrijus also, it's more fun to share code with others than having to go thru an intermediary
07:00 autrijus aside from the anarchy committer model, that explains t/unspecced/
07:00 autrijus dduncan: yes, I see the resemblence
07:01 geoffb intermediary?  meaning getting things approved before doing them?
07:01 autrijus yeah, or reviewed, or somehow acknowledged
07:01 dduncan hopefully I'll be able to take you as an example/inspiration and go at this "second try" from the bottom up, moving quickly and having things working almost from the start
07:01 autrijus deadlocking is least fun of all
07:01 geoffb oh yeah
07:01 autrijus and pugs development so far is remarkably bus-error free
07:02 dduncan as a side benefit, the whole process of this "re-birth" is in public SVN and has a bunch of people interested in it
07:02 autrijus safe from potential bus-errors
07:02 autrijus dduncan: right, and hyperlinks adds to the fun.
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07:02 dduncan so hopefully I'll get the occasional feedback right from the start
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07:03 autrijus I scan technorati and usenets and whatnot every day
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07:03 autrijus two or three times
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07:03 dduncan of course, as with perl 6, my re-birth version will be strongly influenced by what I did before, so most of the thinking is actually already done ... a lot of what I plan was never implemented
07:03 autrijus and try to hand out committer bit, respond to other people's musings, and generally spread the awareness
07:03 geoffb nodnod
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07:04 geoffb Like Larry in the early usenet days
07:04 autrijus aye
07:04 dduncan I know I always like to just go out there and see other people talking about my work
07:04 autrijus geoffb: many of the fun came from the perl culture -- japh, obfu, golf
07:04 geoffb :-)
07:04 autrijus tolkien poetry
07:04 autrijus ;)
07:04 geoffb heh
07:04 dduncan not much of that has happened yet, though, probably because what I did so far doesn't actually work
07:04 dduncan so no one could play with it
07:05 dduncan this second time should be different
07:05 geoffb dduncan, sounds like you had your second system effect the first time around.  ;-)
07:05 dduncan autrijus, you had something to play with from week one, though just 'say hello', but its still something I can emulate
07:05 autrijus I think the rt.openfoundry.org invitation mechanism made a lot of difference
07:05 autrijus dduncan: yeah, I think that is critically important
07:06 autrijus I try -- "desperately" according to allison -- to get everybody else to put whatever early work into public
07:06 geoffb autrijus, what about the rt.o.o invitations?  That they existed and were easy to do?
07:06 geoffb It's a good desparation
07:07 autrijus geoffb: I hacked in that feature for rt.o.o -- it's my pet favourite feature
07:07 dduncan on a side note, Rosetta has been public since 3 weeks after I started it, with over a hundred CPAN releases, though I suppose that's less public than a SVN repository
07:07 geoffb autrijus, good on ya then.  :-)
07:07 dduncan I started it in mid-December 2002, and the first CPAN release was jan 5 2003
07:07 autrijus geoffb: so I'm biased, but yes, because otherwise the process of setting up a svn account (look at svn.perl.org for example) takes days
07:07 autrijus and many casual contributors won't wake for even a day
07:07 autrijus 15 minutes is the attention span
07:07 geoffb dduncan, yeah, public SVN makes a huge difference, I think.
07:07 autrijus s/wake/wait/
07:08 geoffb nodnod, very true.
07:08 autrijus so I think the essence of fun, boils down to
07:08 autrijus instant gratification
07:08 geoffb You'd think it's a silly thing, but I know in my gut that automated signup is so much better.
07:08 autrijus and a sense of wonder and discovery
07:08 geoffb nodnod
07:09 autrijus chromatic calls what we've been doing as "Imagineering"
07:09 autrijus and that phrase captures the fun spirit very well.
07:09 geoffb :-)
07:10 autrijus you better start asking me something before my attention spins back to bayesian networks :)
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07:10 geoffb Sorry, c&p of log to editor window
07:10 geoffb :-)
07:11 autrijus np :)
07:11 dduncan so, I'm doing this re-birth in 2 versions simultaneously, the perl 6 version starting out under Pugs' /modules dir (part of its public SVN), and the perl 5 version probably being at http://svn.utsl.gen.nz/trunk/Rosetta-Incubator/ (public SVN)
07:11 geoffb Go ahead and go bayesian . . . I need to think about what you've said to ask a decent followup
07:11 autrijus cool
07:11 autrijus geoffb++ # resident journalist
07:12 dduncan the perl 6 version is mean to be done in elegant perl 6, and the perl 5 version to look as much alike it as possible, done partly through the use of various third party modules
07:12 geoffb heh, and totally by accident . . . one career I never expected to start down
07:12 * autrijus mumbles something about "careers defined is careers denied"
07:13 geoffb Where's that from?
07:13 autrijus er I just randomly made it up
07:13 geoffb :-)
07:15 dduncan sounds quotable though
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07:19 geoffb autrijus, when you said pugs dev is bus-error free, you were referring to deadlocking (or lack thereof), right?
07:20 autrijus geoffb: yes. there's a common saying among haskell community that GHC suffers from potential bus errors
07:20 autrijus if one of the two simons get hit by a bus, we are in serious trouble
07:20 geoffb AH!  Now I understand
07:20 autrijus the past month proves that pugs is much more resilient
07:21 geoffb right, although there's still unwillingness to touch things that you had talked about wanting to work on (PIL2, for example).
07:21 autrijus but that is because there is no working code for pil2 itself
07:21 geoffb I think that's partially because noone else is doing as much paper reading, conference going, and assorted compiler hacker brain-soaking as you right now
07:21 geoffb nodnod
07:21 dduncan and I thank you for it
07:21 autrijus dduncan: :-)
07:22 dduncan by the way, how can you afford to do that?
07:22 dduncan you make a lot at your job, or have a sponsor?
07:22 autrijus geoffb: but I'm glad I took my time -- after ICFP I'm having a differnt perspective
07:22 dduncan all the travelling could be expensive
07:22 geoffb yeah, I suspected as much
07:22 autrijus dduncan: I've been freelancing for 10 years; I'm trained in getting short term jobs :)
07:22 autrijus (that pays my airfare)
07:23 dduncan so your work is mainly short stints that pay a lot?
07:23 dduncan that's the kind of work I want to get
07:23 autrijus I wouldn't say a lot
07:23 autrijus but certainly enough :)
07:25 autrijus it's very high pressure though
07:25 autrijus as you could see in my past month's journal
07:25 dduncan indeed
07:25 dduncan okay, so I'm going to bed in a few minutes ... but I can still talk/listen in the mean time
07:25 geoffb yeah, some of us have been a little worried about you.
07:25 autrijus and I do stupid things -- eg. formatting RAID HDs -- when I'm burned out
07:26 dduncan I was wondering about that ...
07:26 autrijus geoffb: yeah. but I bounce back easily, thanks to ADD :)
07:26 geoffb :-)
07:26 dduncan do you ever make backups to CD/DVD etc?
07:26 geoffb (diagnosed or just obvious?)
07:26 autrijus dduncan: no, I should do that
07:26 autrijus geoffb: diagnosed _and_ obvious.
07:26 dduncan it sounded like you lost most of your stuff to the hard drive
07:26 geoffb LOL
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07:27 autrijus geoffb: ADD+Bipolar means I need to minimize stress and sense of reluctance
07:27 autrijus so I can be in the blessed hyperfocus mode constantly instead of in the cursed distraction mode
07:27 geoffb Actually, for someone with such a love of well-implemented version control, I'm surprised you don't have most of your life checked into a repo
07:27 geoffb autrijus, nodnod
07:28 autrijus geoffb: but I do, except for the mails :)
07:28 geoffb gotcha.
07:28 dduncan I include my emails in my CD backups
07:28 autrijus so you can say -Ofun is kind of my survival instinct :)
07:28 dduncan currently, my email archive since 1997 is almost a megabyte in size, just text
07:28 geoffb Someone needs to write an MTA that uses a version controlled backend . . . .
07:28 dduncan that's wrong ...
07:28 geoffb autrijus, that makes sense
07:29 dduncan I meant to say that my email archive since 1997 is almost 1 gigabyte in size, all text
07:29 dduncan not including spam, which I delete
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07:41 geoffb autrijus, how do you suggest that someone who fears releasing stuff that isn't "up to their own standards" -- usually set higher than they would expect of others -- fight the urge not to release until they've "just made it a little better here and there"?
07:41 autrijus geoffb: I usually ask whether I can release on behalf of them.
07:41 geoffb How did you manage to do that the first few times?
07:41 geoffb oh, interesting, and good idea
07:41 autrijus or that I'd like to talk about their work, can they please put up it somewhere linkable.
07:42 autrijus one of my most frequent uttering in both realspace and irc is:
07:42 autrijus "url?"
07:42 geoffb heh
07:43 sili is now known as sili-underscore
07:43 autrijus it's easily the key invention of Tim Bernes-Lee and I'm very grateful :)
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07:43 autrijus hey brentdax.
07:43 geoffb :-)
07:43 brentdax Hey.
07:43 * obra ponders sleep
07:43 autrijus how's life? how's kontent?
07:43 autrijus obra: always a good idea
07:44 geoffb obra, better to ponder it already in bed, with eyes closed . . . .  :-)
07:44 geoffb But don't think too hard about it, of course.
07:44 obra autrijus: indeed. though I keep coming closer and closer to making a continuation based web framework happen in perl5
07:44 brentdax Not working on Kontent at the moment--I keep hoping the speed fairy will come by and make working on it less painful.
07:44 autrijus obra: good, because I learned here how to make it really fast.
07:45 autrijus obra: using purely eval{} and die""
07:45 obra heh
07:45 brentdax I'm actually working on an RC4 library for Pugs, which made me realize that Perl 6 needs a way to mark data as sensitive so that the interpreter can tell the OS not to swap it out.
07:46 geoffb brentdax, how does one do that in other languages?
07:47 brentdax Good question.  Let me look around a bit.
07:47 dduncan what's wrong with the OS swapping it out?
07:48 geoffb dduncan, it's harder to clean bits off a disk . . .
07:48 dduncan what's wrong with said info being on a disk?
07:49 dduncan if its sensitive, it could be stored there in an encrypted form, right?
07:49 geoffb dduncan, he's saying, don't swap the plaintext while the encryption is still in progress
07:49 geoffb (er, I think)
07:49 dduncan well, Mac OS X 10.4 encrypts all virtual memory by default, so it doesn't matter
07:50 dduncan on that system
07:50 geoffb Yes, but how well?
07:50 dduncan I don't know, but I did hear that was a new feature of 10.4 over 10.3 ... sounded like a great one to me
07:50 geoffb nodnod
07:50 dduncan of course, I only heard about it due to John Siracusa's in depth coverage of the OS on ARs
07:51 dduncan really, this is something that a secure operating system should be doing
07:51 dduncan programs shouldn't have to worry about that
07:51 dduncan s/programs/apps/
07:51 dduncan I don't know if any other operating systems do that
07:52 geoffb Years ago I went to a session in which the speaker was demoing some Perl feature or other, and he was printing $$ each run.  Then he said, which OS am I running?  And at least half the audience knew it was OpenBSD, because $$ was completely randomized.  :-)
07:52 brentdax Don't swap the plaintext, don't swap the key.
07:52 geoffb dduncan, it's a fair bet that most security concepts exist in some form on OpenBSD, though of course no guarantees
07:53 brentdax (Although the plaintext is the user's responsibility, I think.)
07:53 geoffb But the core OBSD folks are freaks (in a very useful way)
07:53 geoffb dduncan, and what is "ARs"?
07:53 geoffb Oh Ars Technica?
07:53 dduncan yes
07:54 geoffb nodnod
07:54 dduncan I loved all of Siracusa's Mac OS X articles
07:54 geoffb One of the few general tech news sites I read
07:54 dduncan right from DP 2 in 1999 and up
07:54 geoffb :-)
07:54 dduncan I have paid for an annual ARS subscription just to support that
07:55 dduncan fyi, its $25/yr
07:55 * geoffb adds that to his "When I'm donating again" list
07:55 dduncan my donation is an automated Paypal subscription, since about 3 years ago
07:56 dduncan or 4 years ago
07:56 geoffb nod
07:56 dduncan renews in february
07:57 dduncan and now nice for me to learn, some time later, that John is also a big part of the Perl community as well
07:57 dduncan not that his articles didn't mention the language every time
07:57 geoffb What does he do?
07:57 geoffb (in the Perl world)
07:57 dduncan big in a way
07:58 dduncan he writes CPAN modules, and I think he's on Perl 6 language ... have to check
07:58 geoffb Ah, he's a strong community member then.
07:59 geoffb I thought you meant he was in a place of power, like Allison's right hand or something.  :-)
07:59 dduncan no, not that high up
08:00 dduncan but I confirmed it ... from my 1GB email archive, he posts a lot on p6l, and he also writes CPAN modules, such as Rose-DB
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08:00 geoffb good
08:01 dduncan one thing that really strikes me about John Siracusa is that he's a strong proponent of elegant design and good user interfaces
08:02 dduncan an emphasizer of quality and good practices
08:03 dduncan he certainly makes a point of bashing Mac OS X's non-spacial Finder in every X article, citing the spacial classic Mac OS finder being easier to use
08:04 dduncan he also takes the time to explain why certain things are good or bad
08:04 dduncan and the logic seems to make sense
08:04 dduncan aka be sound
08:05 geoffb nod
08:13 dduncan good night
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08:14 autrijus the Yi talk by dons is excellent -- fully dynamically reloadable editor with vi and emacs modes
08:15 autrijus I just watched him changing a few lines of Yi code, then typed :reboot, and the screen refreshed with the bug in the status bar fixed
08:15 autrijus all without losing any buffers or undo history or whatnot.
08:16 autrijus the prospect of using perl6 to script this thing is exciting :)
08:18 geoffb Mmmm, Perl 6 everywhere
08:18 geoffb autrijus, thanks for the nice link in your journal
08:19 autrijus :D
08:21 geoffb Gaah, I am resisting sleep, and I have no idea why
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08:46 geoffb autrijus, you must be giving off committer bit vibes.  Someone just asked for the committer bit on one of my projects (SDL_perl 1.x Resurrected),
08:47 geoffb :-)
08:47 geoffb It's been a while.
08:47 autrijus :D
08:47 autrijus spread the bits
08:48 geoffb To anyone I can.
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09:06 Juerd Okay, I'm off to see feather
09:06 Juerd Wish me luck
09:07 autrijus Juerd++ # luck!
09:10 geoffb Good luck, Juerd
09:13 r0nny is there a win32 binary bundle of pugs ?
09:13 geoffb PxPerl, though I don't know how up to date it is (given I haven't used it)
09:14 r0nny want pxperl perl 5 ?
09:14 r0nny wasnt
09:14 geoffb I thought it had Pugs and Parrot in it.
09:15 r0nny well - found a win32 bin of pugs
09:15 r0nny btw - is there a vim syntax file for perl6 ?
09:16 geoffb Yes, I think it's even checked in
09:16 geoffb hold on, I'll check
09:16 geoffb util/perl6.vim maybe?
09:17 geoffb yep, that's the one
09:17 r0nny hmm
09:17 r0nny where to download ?
09:17 geoffb It's in the Pugs source tree
09:18 autrijus http://svn.openfoundry.org/pugs/util/perl6.vim
09:21 r0nny thx
09:21 r0nny will make live munch more easy
09:21 r0nny btw - is there a howto for threads & stuff ?
09:22 geoffb t/unspecced/
09:25 r0nny there is no spec for perl6 threads ?
09:25 r0nny damn
09:26 geoffb We here in #perl6 live on the bleading edge
09:26 elmex_ has quit IRC ("leaving")
09:26 r0nny yeah
09:26 r0nny -_-
09:26 r0nny ok
09:27 r0nny now im going to do something insane
09:27 r0nny im going to write my cool irc but with multiserver support in c++
09:27 r0nny but=bot
09:28 geoffb oh the humanity
09:28 geoffb or inhumanity, in this case
09:28 r0nny hehe
09:28 r0nny as soon, as i have enough classes, it wil lbe simple
09:37 masak wow. the vim syntax file does help a lot
09:37 masak luqui++
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09:48 * nothingmuch is upset
09:48 nothingmuch my computer is not going to sleep on it's own anymore
09:50 geoffb nothingmuch, someone stopped by #sdlperl and picked up a committer bit there, saw your nick on the project member list, and seemed impressed.  You appear to have fans.  :-)
09:50 nothingmuch err, i promised to help out
09:50 nothingmuch who was it?
09:50 geoffb alexe
09:51 nothingmuch do i know alexe?
09:51 geoffb Who I'd never met before
09:51 * geoffb shurgs
09:51 nothingmuch so
09:51 nothingmuch now that you've mentioned it
09:51 nothingmuch i really need to help out
09:52 nothingmuch sdlperl1 repo?
09:52 geoffb In the channel topic
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10:00 nothingmuch luqui++ for blogging about unreadable papers
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10:04 geoffb Oh yeah, he's totally right there.
10:04 geoffb I just don't have the attention span to read that crap
10:06 geoffb I think part of the problem is that academic papers are not yet optimized for the web way of doing things.
10:06 geoffb Aside from way too many being in PDF (*SIGH*), they all assume you're coming to them from a background in the field,
10:07 geoffb rather than assume you just came from a Google search.
10:08 geoffb "No, thank you, I don't want to have to spend 15 hours trying to read enough Wikipedia articles to understand the obtuse jargon and silly formulas strewn throughout.  Yes, I'm sure it's nice and consise.  Waste a few thousand bits on some extra words.  They're cheap, you know."
10:11 nothingmuch i actually like PDF as a format for enhanced readability
10:11 nothingmuch on OSX it's fast
10:11 nothingmuch it's clean
10:11 nothingmuch it's pretty
10:11 nothingmuch and it prints well
10:11 nothingmuch as for 15 hours of wikipedia - i don't want to do that either
10:11 nothingmuch but i do ;-)
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10:12 geoffb The only OS X box in the house has a tiny fraction of the screen real estate of my workstation . . . but my complaint is more that I can't use any tools other than a printer and a PDF reader on it.
10:12 nothingmuch over one to two years of use i've learned more from wikipedia than I have from all the encyclopedias i've read over the years and all the science channels i've watched combined
10:12 nothingmuch ah
10:12 nothingmuch in tiger the pdf reading is integrated into safari
10:13 nothingmuch my only complaint now is that I don't remember to save stuff as often as I should ;-)
10:13 geoffb Yeah, Wikipedia just never ceases to amaze me
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10:31 pdcawley_ I find the integrated into safari thing really annoying with PDFs.
10:34 geoffb *yawn*
10:34 geoffb Time to scurry off to dream land
10:34 geoffb night, all
10:34 nothingmuch ciao
10:35 geoffb and to you
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10:49 Juerd rehi
10:49 Juerd feather is back up
10:49 Juerd I have no idea what was wrong
10:49 Juerd The console cart was in use, so I had to just attempt a reboot
10:49 Juerd And that worked
10:49 Juerd The blinking of the keyboard lights suggested a kernel panic, though.
10:50 Juerd Can sameone quickly confirm that they can reach feather?
10:50 rafl Juerd: Works.
10:53 Juerd Thanks
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12:28 * pdcawley_ reads TSa on exceptions and wonders if 'terrorism' is the new 'Hitler' yet.
12:29 * pdcawley_ is enormously glad that he won't be summarizing on Monday.
12:31 pdcawley_ CATCH Exception { say "Why do you hate freedom?" }
12:31 autrijus pdcawley++
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12:31 pdcawley_ If ever there was a candidate for the cluebat, it's that post.
12:34 rep which post
12:34 pdcawley_ The one where TSa declares that deliberately throwing an exception 'is terrorism'.
12:34 rep url?
12:35 pdcawley_ Umm... it's in the p6l Exceptuations thread.
12:35 ycl6 has joined #perl6
12:35 rep :/
12:36 pdcawley_ MessageID: <433BAAA4.5040204@orthogon.com>
12:36 ycl6 has left
12:36 pdcawley_ What he actually says is "BTW, I would call *intentiona* exceptions terrorism"
12:36 pdcawley_ Which seems to miss the point that *all* exceptions are intentional.
12:37 rep hehe
12:40 * pdcawley_ thinks "To hell with it!" and posts the "Why do you hate freedom?" crack to the list.
12:40 rep why do you want to destroy our way of life?
12:40 autrijus s/way of //
12:40 pdcawley_ Is that the terrorist asking the US, or the US asking the terrorist? Or both?
12:41 rep heh.
12:41 * pdcawley_ stops with the politics.
12:42 autrijus I think it's terrored subjects asking the US terrorists, but that may just be me :)
12:42 * autrijus also stops with the politics
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12:46 kgftr|konobi theorbtwo: moo?
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13:08 Limbic_Region kgftr|konobi - theorbtwo is working on a vector search engine for a contest with a Monday deadline - I would expect him to be less visible then normal
13:08 Limbic_Region IMO, the vector search engine he is modeling is crap - but he knows what he needs more then I do
13:08 kgftr|konobi bah... he needs to get his ass out to the pub this evening
13:09 Limbic_Region when I see him at the Monastery (or castaway) - I will let him know
13:09 Limbic_Region though from my little experience with him - he isn't much of a drinker
13:09 kgftr|konobi Limbic_Region: anyone introduced him to hilberts curve yet?
13:09 kgftr|konobi Limbic_Region: heh, with castaway at sophos, he will become one... =0)
13:10 Limbic_Region *shrug*
13:11 kgftr|konobi theorbtwo: http://search.cpan.org/~teejay/Math-Curve-Hilbert-0.04/Hilbert.pm - check it out
13:13 Limbic_Region the approach he is using takes the cosine of the indexed document and the search vector
13:13 Limbic_Region the problem is that it doesn't take into consideration a lot of things
13:15 kgftr|konobi nice thing about hilbert is that 2 things that are close together in 2D space will become close together in 1D space, so makes bringing up the index stupidly fast
13:16 Limbic_Region well, there are other things to consider too - word weighing, exact phrase matching, etc
13:16 Limbic_Region and perhaps for what he needs to do to win the contest - those are all un-necessary bells and whistles
13:17 kgftr|konobi true
13:17 kgftr|konobi Class::Indexed also++
13:19 Limbic_Region I think the task for the competition is to rate which TV shows you currently like and predict which ones you might like
13:20 Limbic_Region it was towards the end of the day and I didn't get many particulars from him
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14:09 nothingmuch [email@hidden.address] 'Hi <firstname>, You Need To Act Fast To Earn Fast! ?'
14:09 nothingmuch Action: defer/accept/discard [dax]:
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14:17 putter dduncan, autrijus: re backends:  pugs is still the best all around backend.  js has better non-oo, but little oo.  p5 is currently weakest of the three (slowest, least coverage, most buggy, little oo).  this can all change of course.  perhaps even quickly.  but that's my understanding of current state.
14:19 * nothingmuch is getting ready to revamp BlondieD
14:19 nothingmuch reading a lot about Minley typing
14:19 nothingmuch uhm... maybe i've confused the name
14:19 putter autrijus: :)
14:19 nothingmuch oops
14:19 nothingmuch Hindley and Milner ;-)
14:19 nothingmuch so Minler typing
14:19 putter err, nothingmuch: :)
14:21 fglock__ putter: the new fails are mostly timeouts?
14:28 putter autrijus: re bus failures, I don't know that's it's been stated explicitly, so...  One key contribution you make is creating a sense of high potential, of great possibilities.  I could be working on pypy or ruby... but they would not dream of integrating H-M typing.  And neither would pugs, without you.  That excitement and motivation is fundamentally important.  It just decays slower than actual commits when we think you will be back i
14:28 putter n a bit.
14:28 autrijus putter: sure, but the high potential was inherent in the synopses
14:29 autrijus which is also why it decays slowly.
14:29 putter fglock__: I don't have a clear idea.  it might be worth running some tests individually which used to pass, but now fail.  there is definitely a new failure mode, a cpu-free hang.
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14:37 ingy hola friends
14:38 autrijus greetings ingy san!
14:39 ingy hi autrijus
14:39 rafl What's Luke Palmers nick on IRC again?
14:39 autrijus luqui
14:39 ingy where are you these days?
14:39 autrijus I'm in Tallinn
14:39 autrijus for ICFP -- see my journal
14:39 autrijus I'm in the "future of haskell" discussion workshop
14:39 autrijus at this moment
14:40 rafl autrijus: Thank you.
14:41 * qwr lives in Tallinn ;)
14:43 ingy Ross Mayfield's wife is from ee
14:43 ingy (my boss)
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14:47 putter autrijus: yes and no.  yes, if you bus collided, pugs is at a point where a couple of people could create a perl6 over a year or few.  but no, it would be a much more poorer, limited and impoverished p6.  both as a language, and as an implementation.  the "unopened christmass present" feel of pugs, that "anything" is possible, and on a startlingly short time-scale, that p6 can be really important, not just nice... that's key to attracti
14:47 putter ng and keeping good motivated poeple.  and I don't see anyone _else_ hanging out at ICFP, playing with simon, _sending back links and thoughts of what pugs could be_.
14:48 * autrijus purrs and blushes etc.
14:48 putter sorry, big picture, you're still a potential bus error. :)
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14:53 rafl Would someone please restart evalbot?
14:58 * Limbic_Region would but he isn't someone he is no one
15:13 putter non?existential philosophy? ;)
15:14 Limbic_Region I didn't say "nothing"
15:15 Limbic_Region though I have dabbled in that too
15:15 putter rafl: sorry, i don't have access to the machine on which it runs, nor am i set up to run it myself. :/
15:15 putter Limbic_Region: :)
15:15 Limbic_Region I would say more like borgism
15:15 rafl putter: Thought it runs on feather..
15:16 flgr__ has joined #perl6
15:16 Limbic_Region I have an acct on feather but can SSH from where I am
15:16 rafl I simply don't know where the scripts are that recompile/restart it on every commit. I would do that mysef otherwise.
15:20 putter rafl: could be.  don't think i ever got an account.  'locate' (if linux) to find pugs installs?  watch process list for the crontab job going by?
15:21 rafl Ah, I guess I found it.
15:21 putter check evalbot source in svn for embedded filenames? ;)
15:21 putter great.
15:23 rafl liqui used to run it.
15:25 putter ohhh, borg-ism.  took a failed wikipedia and onelook search for that to sink in.
15:26 putter rafl: when you figure out what to do, please document... hmm... you did check that someone didn't already?  (very very fuzzy foggy recollection of iblech doing something like that... maybe)
15:28 rafl putter: I think I figured it out. It's compiling pugs by now.
15:29 rafl putter: I checked for other docs in the repository. Nothing found.
15:30 putter k
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15:46 rafl ?eval say "Hello";
15:46 evalbot_ Hello bool::true
15:47 rafl OK, only the revision is missing now.
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15:49 rafl ?eval say $?PUGS_VERSION;
15:49 evalbot_7207 Perl6 User's Golfing System, version 6.2.9, August 3, 2005 (r7207) bool::true
15:49 rafl Yay!
15:49 kolibrie rafl++
15:50 rafl Maybe someone want's to do a commit so we can see if it updates correctly.
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15:53 rafl ?eval 1 while 1
15:53 evalbot_7207 (no output)
15:54 rafl ?eval "x" x 2**42
15:54 evalbot_7207 pugs: out of memory (requested 1048576 bytes)
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16:07 integral|ZzZzz is now known as constant
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16:22 ods15 ?eval sleep 2
16:22 evalbot_7207 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&sleep"
16:22 ods15 ?eval $a = 1; while($a++) {}
16:22 evalbot_7207 Error: Undeclared variable: "$a"
16:22 ods15 ?eval my $a = 1; while($a++) {}
16:22 evalbot_7207 (no output)
16:23 ods15 heh
16:23 ods15 ?eval my $a = 1; while($a++) { say 'a' };
16:23 evalbot_7207 a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a
16:23 ods15 bah
16:24 rep ..
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16:33 jql infinite loops in finite time? sweet
16:35 sili_ it bends the mind
16:36 kgftr|konobi might still be flying along... IRC has message length constraints
16:37 rafl kgftr|konobi: No. That would consume much CPU time which it doesn't currently.
16:40 kgftr|konobi rafl: "would" translates to "shouldn't"... and "shouldn't" translates to "assume" which we all know...
16:40 kgftr|konobi anyways
16:40 kgftr|konobi pub
16:45 putter Is it still the case on recent perls that method calls are > 10x more time costly than sub calls?
16:45 * putter realizes he may have been making design decisions on obsolute data...
16:46 putter s/obsolute/obsolete/
16:46 * putter onelook's for "obsolute"...
16:47 putter nope
16:47 putter ah well.  it's the way of clarity too.
16:47 pdcawley_ Oh my lord. I continue to boggle at TSa. "Exceptions shouldn't be considered just another tool."
16:48 dudley_ WTF?
16:50 pdcawley_ Well, initially he said that he called intentional exceptions 'terrorism', so I responded pointing out that there's no such thing as unintentional exceptions, and that's how he responded.
16:50 pdcawley_ perl6-language
16:51 dudley_ I read the terrorist thing, then promptly began ignoring the thread.
16:51 pdcawley_ Yeah. I think terrorism might be the new Hitler. He' s coming dangerously close to going into my killfile, but I can't really do that what with writing the summaries and all.
16:52 putter soo... what is the current relationship between Bit and Bool?
16:54 putter fglock: ping?
16:54 obra Expn TSa?
16:56 pdcawley_ Thomas Sandlass
16:56 pdcawley_ He mostly wibbles about types. Dunno if he's ever contributed any code.
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17:12 fglock__ putter: Bool is an "enum"
17:13 fglock__ bool::true is Bit(1) and bool::false is Bit(0)
17:14 fglock__ implementation-wise, I think bool::true is a macro
17:14 putter thanks! :)
17:15 putter hmm... does mm2 have enums...
17:18 putter hmm.  i would expect a bit(0) to stringify as "0", but a perlish false to stringify as "".  looks like ./pugs uses "".  sigh.
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17:25 putter fglock__: how would you feel about merging P6::Value, ::Container, PrimP5 and PrimP6?  i have a toy which is starting to separate a combined file into p5, mm2 p5 extracted from p6 class defs, prelude p6 for compiling to p5, and p6 for extending ./pugs.  any thoughts?
17:26 putter the combination is rather large.  but shrinking noticably.  i'm still unclear on how to organize it clearly.
17:27 putter so it's still a "this may all just not work".  but I thought i'd mention it.
17:27 fglock__ to start, how about moving into a single dir
17:27 putter hmm, good idea.
17:28 Limbic_Region fglock_ how went/goes the junction optimization?
17:28 fglock__ putter: I wrote a small example to find out what continuations and lexical scopes would look like
17:29 putter !
17:29 fglock__ Limbic_Region: it looks like the main difference of cpan's Perl6::Junction and Q::S is that Q::S does short-circuiting
17:29 putter using the paper autrijus mentioned, or another approach?
17:30 fglock__ which paper?
17:30 putter looking...
17:30 fglock__ Limbic_Region: so it's doable
17:32 putter http://www.cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Papers/Published/pcmkf-cont-from-gen-stack-insp/
17:33 putter http://www.colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2005-09-27,Tue   contains some discussion re using w p5
17:33 fglock__ putter: I'll compare with my newly invented wheel :)
17:34 Limbic_Region cool - will keep an eye on it, thanks fglock_
17:34 putter :)
17:36 fglock__ putter: my plan was to use no stack at all - I was storing everything in a hash and using gotos
17:37 putter make sense.  "hash" == "heap"
17:37 putter s/make/makes/
17:38 putter have to worry about gc yourself, yes?
17:38 fglock__ probably, yes. I wonder how p5 behaves if you have a program with thousands of gotos
17:39 putter ;)  ?
17:40 fglock__ I'm not using function calls and return - only goto $h{label}
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17:41 putter can't see that it would necessarily be a problem.  but I haven't looked at how it's really implemented.
17:42 putter try! :)
17:44 putter oh, right.  fglock, could you give me the quick tour of what's boxed and not, when Array elements are Scalars or not, and such?
17:45 fglock__ let's see...
17:47 fglock__ Value.pm has 2 parts - the first half implements boxed values; the second half implements conversions of p5-p6 unboxed values
17:48 fglock__ Perl6::Value::Bit::to_str() converts a p5 logic value to a p5 string, following p6 rules
17:49 putter P6V::Bit/Num/Str... is anything ever blessed into them, or are they "utility" classes.
17:49 putter ie, collections of subs?
17:50 fglock__ they are just collections of subs - they work on unboxed things
17:50 putter k
17:50 fglock__ Array->fetch($i) always return a Scalar
17:51 fglock__ which is bound to the array element
17:51 putter so there are two levels, regular p5 str/num/etc, with some utility subs, and the mm2 classes.
17:51 fglock__ yes
17:51 putter k
17:51 putter internally Array stores... what?
17:52 putter there seemed some uncertainty in the code/comment about whether things other than ->fetch() return Scalar?
17:53 fglock__ Array.pm has 3 main parts: the MM object, the lazy array implementation, and the native array implementation
17:53 fglock__ there is another object for "slice"
17:54 fglock__ sorry - where?
17:54 putter Container::A being the lazy?
17:54 fglock__ yes
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17:55 putter are the contents at all different in each of the three?
17:57 putter re where, # XXX - I think only fetch() need to return Scalar
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17:57 fglock__ lazy arrays are ARRAY of (Perl6::Value::List | Object)
17:59 putter what does the usage chain look like?   mm uses lazy, lazy uses Native and List, Native uses p5?
17:59 fglock__ re where: that's because assigning to a pop() doesn't make much sense anyway
17:59 putter ah
18:01 fglock__ lazy uses p5 and List
18:01 putter what uses Native?
18:02 fglock__ Native is meant to be used by the "eager" role (unwritten)
18:03 fglock__ is is used to tie p5 @INC
18:04 fglock__ "tieable" and "readonly" roles are implemented in Scalar.pm
18:04 fglock__ "eager" and "lazy" were not written yet
18:04 putter ok, so mm Array is a wrapper around lazy C::A.  is it a "thin" wrapper or does it do any conversion as requiests go by?
18:04 putter k
18:05 fglock__ Array processes slice() - but this could be moved into C::A
18:05 stevan hello all
18:05 fglock__ hi stevan
18:06 stevan I am giving out commiter bits if anyone is interested : http://rt.openfoundry.org/Foundry/Project/?Queue=423
18:06 putter hi stevan
18:06 putter :)
18:07 putter so you imported mm2?
18:07 stevan putter: no,.. this is a real-world usable version
18:07 stevan it is based on MM2
18:07 fglock__ putter: re slice: most of the work is done by the Perl6::Slice object
18:08 justatheory has joined #perl6
18:08 putter ah C3
18:09 nothingmuch_ has joined #perl6
18:09 putter so lazy is full of Scalars and Lists?  anything else?
18:09 nothingmuch_ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
18:09 nothingmuch bah
18:09 * nothingmuch didn't notice there was already a window opened
18:09 nothingmuch TSa is becoming hard to cope with
18:10 nothingmuch i don't know what it is he's got against exceptions and freedom, but it's really nonsensical
18:10 fglock__ putter: that's it
18:10 putter ok...
18:12 putter i noticed there were a lot of is/does => { next method }.    that can all go away now, right?  given mm2 inheritance working
18:13 fglock__ we will need to have separate Perl6::Container::Array::Native and Perl6::Container::Array::Eager - because the Native version always force storing unboxed things
18:14 fglock__ re next_method: ok
18:14 putter ok.  I think that's all my questions for now.  thanks! :)  fglock++
18:23 kolibrie stevan: looks fun.  I'm game.
18:25 stevan kolibrie: your in :)
18:29 kolibrie stevan: thanks
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18:41 brentdax Does pugs have an unpack() or something else I can use to split a string into pairs of characters?
18:42 Limbic_Region you could use a regex
18:42 integral .chars + a two-at-a-time loop
18:42 Limbic_Region heh
18:42 brentdax Figured as much.
18:42 Limbic_Region TIMTOWTDI is alive and well in p6
18:43 Limbic_Region so integral - does .chars return the list of chars in one context and the count in another?
18:43 integral isn't that the subject of yet another silly thread?
18:43 Limbic_Region I posted this to the list some time ago and never got an answer - ppl have a hard time staying on topic and the thread went off on some tangent
18:44 integral I wish the easy stuff would just get decided and coded, and the hard stuff throughly ignored
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18:44 Limbic_Region that's why I gave up on trying to help with the docs
18:45 Limbic_Region actually - it is a large reason why I am not very involved at all anymore
18:45 integral nothing seems to be actually specified with rules either :-/
18:46 Limbic_Region well - the crux of the problem is that the language is still being designed concurrently with an implementation
18:47 QtPlatypus brentdax: No it doesn't.  Unfortunitly pack is undefined.
18:47 Limbic_Region and while those two are trying to work together - they both have very different agendas
18:47 integral except by two groups who ostensibly communicate via wandering threads on MLs
18:47 Limbic_Region I am in violent agreement integral
18:47 integral I like the fact that the grammar is meant to be extensible using modules; but it would be even better to use that to structure the design process
18:48 integral err, of course that would mean development would have to implement a rules engine, and that didn't work...
18:48 integral well, I suppose pugs has succeded at getting the core stuff done
18:48 putter almost have a prolog based one...  but set it aside to support pilrun/ P6::V/C / mm2.
18:49 Limbic_Region Pugs has succeeded in many things
18:49 Limbic_Region and it is not nearly as bad as the picture I paint
18:49 integral the metamodel stuff is brilliant
18:50 Limbic_Region but I find it incredibly frustrating when simple questions don't get straight forward answers and spin off into endless tangents
18:50 putter one really only needs to get rules working once, anywhere.  then it becomes easy to boostrap other implementations.
18:51 geoffb rafl, ping
18:51 integral you need the precedence parser bit that no one's spec'ed too
18:52 Limbic_Region integral - IIRC, .chars doesn't give you a list of chars only a count as it is intended to replace length() where you also can do .bytes etc
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18:52 integral hmm, you could just write the engine in perl6 rules, use perl6 rules to parse the perl6 rules, and bootstrap via pm's stuff
18:52 putter ah, you mean for user extensions of the regexp grammar.  yes.
18:52 integral ?eval $a = "abc"; say $a.chars
18:52 evalbot_7207 Error: Undeclared variable: "$a"
18:53 integral ?eval my $a = "abc"; say $a.chars
18:53 evalbot_7207 3 bool::true
18:53 integral ?eval my $a = "abc"; say join(":",$a.chars)
18:53 evalbot_7207 3 bool::true
18:53 integral ok, pugs at least doesn't do what I assumed
18:54 putter re bootstrap, until recently("historically"), pm's rules hasn't been able to parse its own grammar.  still cant generate a :parsetree, but you can fake that.
18:54 Limbic_Region integral - I think Pugs is in alignment with the spec even though numerous people have requested that it support multiple return values depending on context
18:54 QtPlatypus integral: Your thinking that .chars should in an array/list context act like split('',$_)
18:55 putter then its just a matter of doing an engine.
18:56 wolverian QtPlatypus: I think .chars should return a list of aliases to the string
18:56 wolverian admittedly that is somewhat action at a distance.
18:56 QtPlatypus And likewise with .bytes?
18:56 wolverian QtPlatypus: right.
18:56 wolverian and .words
18:57 * QtPlatypus endorces this product/service.
18:57 integral it just makes sense, and looks more dwimmy than split('',...)
18:58 putter I came pretty close a couple of times, but each time hit a pugsbug I couldn't work around.  But a lot of that goes back half of pugs's life.  Should be easier now.  But still, for my latest attempt, I decided to stand someplace secure p5&prlog to get it working, and then incrementally port from there.
18:59 putter .chars {... want.Array ? split : length() }   ?
18:59 putter but  ($alen,$blen)=($a.chars,$b.chars)
18:59 integral want.Array?  not something nice like want ~~ Array? [/me makes stuff up again]
19:00 putter i think that's waht the .t file says
19:00 integral also is this possible: ($first_char, $second_char) = $str.chars ?
19:00 wolverian given want { when Array { ... } } # would work nicely enough, although we can just implement return type MMD as well
19:01 putter (return type mmd)++
19:01 wolverian integral: no, since .chars only returns a number. :)
19:01 integral return type or return context mmd?
19:01 brentdax Why should .chars only return a number?
19:01 putter .chars == length()
19:01 wolverian integral: I don't know. both? :)
19:01 wolverian brentdax: because that's how it is specced.
19:02 brentdax But isn't it also specced so that .bytes only returns a number?
19:02 geoffb ls
19:02 integral are they different, or are both just matched against the signature of the return continuation?
19:02 geoffb bah, wrong computer
19:02 putter length exploded into .chars/.bytes/.graphemes/.codes
19:02 geoffb ETOOMANYKEYBOARDS
19:02 wolverian integral: I don't know.
19:02 putter yes, that's spec
19:03 brentdax I'd like to see those four return pseudo-arrays into the string, which Just Happen to numify to their length.
19:03 integral are graphemes and codes the right way around there?  I thought graphemes were after you turned é from two codepoints to one thingy?
19:03 dduncan has joined #perl6
19:03 putter not an ordered list
19:04 integral oops, should have been obvious =)
19:04 brentdax Smallest to largest is .bytes, .graphemes, .codes.  I think there's a fourth level, but I'm not sure if it's .chars or something else.
19:04 PerlJam brentdax: that's been suggested several times with great favor from the community, nothing blessed though that I know.
19:04 particle_ has left
19:04 brentdax Er... .bytes, .codes, .graphemes.  Ack.
19:04 putter ;)
19:04 brentdax PerlJam: Isn't that what's being discussed, though.
19:05 brentdax ?
19:08 fglock__ bytes/codes/graphemes thread: http://www.codecomments.com/archive312-2004-7-222999.html
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19:11 * PerlJam wonders where .chars falls in relation toe .bytes/.codes/.graphs/.langs
19:11 PerlJam s/toe/to/
19:13 QtPlatypus /me thinks that .chars == .graphs
19:13 QtPlatypus Chars are thouse things that I see, ie graphs.
19:14 PerlJam QtPlatypus: I think that the meaning of .chars varies depending on pragmata.
19:14 geoffb QtPlatypus, I don't think that is necessarily true for all languages
19:15 QtPlatypus geoffb: Some of the wearder Indian lanauges are like that yes.
19:15 integral or maybe magical so you have one thingie that eq both "ss" and "ß"
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19:24 autrijus rehi!
19:25 autrijus the conference is over :)
19:25 QtPlatypus autrijus: re
19:25 autrijus re QtPlatypus
19:27 geoffb Cool . . . how was the last day?
19:28 geoffb .oO( Long day for a last conference day ...)
19:28 autrijus it's 10:27pm here
19:28 autrijus yeah, went to the #haskell meeting in a bar
19:29 autrijus hacked with wolfgang until the battery exhausted
19:29 nnunley It looks like you were busy.
19:29 clkao autrijus: say hi to lukhnos
19:29 clkao nnunley!
19:29 autrijus wolfgang++ # icfp contest chD[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dampion
19:29 nnunley clkao!!
19:29 autrijus clkao: I don't see lukhnos here.
19:29 geoffb autrijus, might I suggest several extra battery packs?
19:29 putter QtPlatypus: re .chars == .graphs, not in unicode.
19:29 autrijus I do see ccshan
19:29 clkao autrijus: he is beside me
19:29 autrijus geoffb: they are heavy :)
19:29 autrijus clkao: oh!
19:29 autrijus clkao: lukhnos: hi!
19:30 geoffb Too bad wireless power is so . . . touchy
19:31 integral microwaving autrijus would be ... bad
19:31 nnunley Radioactive autrijus?  Would he develop super powers?
19:32 PerlJam nnunley: he already *has* super-powers.
19:32 putter Tesla coils?
19:32 geoffb I was thinking more of . . . bah . . . whatshisname . . . the guy who is responsible for AC water power generation?
19:32 nnunley PerlJam:  More powers are always good.
19:32 geoffb yeah, Tesla . . .
19:32 geoffb The whole "Power resonating with the fundamental frequency of the planet" thing
19:32 nnunley Mmm.  Crystal planet.
19:32 putter lol
19:33 geoffb It's worth reading the story of Tesla doing this in Colorado, if you haven't already . . . the grass started to give off electric discharges,
19:34 geoffb and he eventually blew a good portion of the local power grid with the massive feedback
19:34 nnunley Nice.  I remember reading some nutter's popular science book suggesting doing it again.  Along with how to make a functioning UFO (which didn't)
19:35 geoffb heh
19:35 geoffb Tesla was high up on my list of "He's a genius . . . now, can we give him his own planet to mess with?" people.
19:36 nnunley Definitely a 'try it elsewhere' situation.
19:41 dduncan hello
19:42 putter ludites.  :)  humanity/civilization is a "give it is own planet to mess with" exercise.  unavoidable.
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21:47 masak putter++ # for being a technological optimist
21:47 masak putter-- # also for being a technological optimist
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