Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-01

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:23 malenfant does anyone have a vim syntax conf file for Perl 6 (I'm using Perl 5.8 with the Perl6:: modules)?
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00:40 Khisanth malenfant: there is one in the repo
00:41 Khisanth util/perl6.vim
00:42 malenfant Khisanth: thanks... is it perl6 only, or designed to be used in conjunction with perl5 syntax?
00:42 Khisanth don't know but that seems doubtful
00:42 malenfant ok, thanks
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00:44 svnbot6 r7209 | Darren_Duncan++ | /modules/Rosetta-Incubator : added new docs/ folder and docs/OSCON2005LightningTalk.txt ... now the perl 5 and 6 project versions are in sync
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01:01 brentdax Should this work?  `ord<< $string.split`
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01:21 scook0 brentdax: as a hyper op?
01:22 scook0 I know luqui proposed `foo(»$x«)`
01:22 scook0 (it's not in pugs though, AFAIK)
01:28 flgr for applying arbitrary methods as hyperops?
01:29 scook0 flgr: yeah
01:29 flgr ah, interesting
01:30 scook0 there's also `'foo'.split('').map:{ord}`
01:31 scook0 i.e. `$x.map:{foo $_}`
01:31 scook0 but I think the hyper form would be clearer in many cases
01:32 scook0 and you could say things like `foo(»@xs«, $y, »@zs«)`
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02:00 rafl geoffb: pong
02:03 rafl geoffb: Hurry up, I'll go to bed in about 5 minutes.
02:07 rafl Too late. Bye!
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03:26 brentdax ?eval class X {} ::Y := ::X
03:26 evalbot_7209 Error: Undeclared variable: ":Y"
03:26 brentdax ?eval class X {} our ::Y := ::X
03:26 evalbot_7209 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting qualified identifier, variable name or "("
03:26 brentdax ?eval class X {} class ::Y := ::X
03:26 evalbot_7209 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&class"
03:26 brentdax Hmm.
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05:08 putter masak: my tongue-in-cheek (aka sloppy - misused Luddites) comment wasn't so much technological optimism, as noting that that "risks the world" is a less useful metric than it might seem.  bootstrapping a 10+Bperson civ with unprecidented tech and info access already unavoidably tosses the world in the air.  only question now is what increases the odds of catching it.
05:10 putter night &
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05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel 2.0 -
05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ | * Added memoization to the method dispatch routines,
05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ |   this resulted in ~20% speed increase (from 21 sec. to 17 sec.)
05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ | * changed how next_METHOD is handled, this actually makes calling
05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ |   it more expensive, however not calling it is cheaper now
05:46 svnbot6 r7210 | stevan++ | * expanded the next_METHOD test
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06:43 geoffb stevan, ping
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07:15 masak putter: I like, and agree with, your reply
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07:38 brentdax ?eval class X { sub foo { 'bar' } } X::foo()
07:38 evalbot_7210 'bar'
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08:01 ^conner On the off chance that there is an SVK hacker ak... is there a way of emulating svnversion on a SVN checkout without shelling out to svnversion?
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08:16 wilx Tried #svk?
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08:53 spinclad ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
08:53 evalbot_7210 \'Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.9, August 3, 2005 (r7210)'
08:54 spinclad yay!  it's up to rev!
08:55 brentdax ?eval multi sub x(byte $y) { say "byte" } multi sub x(str $y) { say "str" } x("foo"); x(1);
08:55 evalbot_7210 byte byte bool::true
08:56 brentdax That makes amazingly little sense.
08:57 brentdax ?eval multi sub x(int $y) { say "int" } multi sub x(str $y) { say "str" } x("foo"); x(1);
08:57 evalbot_7210 int int bool::true
08:57 brentdax ?eval multi sub x(Int $y) { say "int" } multi sub x(Str $y) { say "str" } x("foo"); x(1);
08:57 evalbot_7210 str int bool::true
08:57 brentdax ?eval multi sub x(Byte $y) { say "byte" } multi sub x(Str $y) { say "str" } x("foo"); x(1);
08:57 evalbot_7210 str str bool::true
08:58 brentdax Hmm.
09:01 autrijus "byte" is not a close; unboxed types are not supported.
09:01 autrijus s/close/class/
09:01 brentdax Ah, okay.
09:03 brentdax I'm having fun thinking about how to design a Cipher:: heirarchy for Perl 6.  I'd like to have the ciphers themselves be classes with a uniform interface, with things like block cipher modes supported by composing roles into the cipher objects.
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09:08 brentdax (But with procedural and somewhat-functional approaches included too--in particular, I'm thinking about a function that returns a function which will encrypt a piece of data, keeping whatever state is involved handy for the next one.)
09:10 autrijus *nod*
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09:13 brentdax I'm working with Cipher::Caesar (a.k.a. rot13 with certain settings) to test it out.
09:13 autrijus cool!
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09:20 brentdax ?eval ceil(1.1)
09:20 evalbot_7210 Error: Undeclared variable: "&do_ceil"
09:22 brentdax Any idea why that's happening?  I can see a do_ceil defined in Prelude...
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09:33 autrijus looking
09:33 autrijus apparently it's not seeing the do_cell in scope
09:33 autrijus ?eval floor(1.10)
09:33 evalbot_7210 Error: Undeclared variable: "&do_floor"
09:34 autrijus somehow the subs declared in prelude failed to call each other
09:37 brentdax Yeah, they seem to need to be prefixed with Num::.  I'm doing that in my copy of Prelude--should I commit it that way, or is there some underlying fix I should wait for?
09:42 autrijus please commit that way
09:42 autrijus I'll investigate an underlying fix but that's no excuse of delay :)
09:54 brentdax Committed.
09:54 svnbot6 r7211 | brentdax++ | Temporary fix to make ceil, floor, round work.
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09:58 brentdax Impressive... "pugs: src/Pugs/Prim.hs:1327:13-36: Non-exhaustive patterns in lambda"
09:58 brentdax I'm not sure what it means, but it sounds kinda cool.
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10:15 brentdax Nor can I work out what that section could possibly be doing, since I don't know Haskell from Intercal.
10:15 brentdax Other than that it seems to have something to do with a binary operator.  Maybe.
10:18 brentdax Hmm, seems to have something to do with the unary dot...
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10:26 brentdax Added in a bunch of $selfs, and now it works.  And the four rot13 tests pass.
10:32 wolverian autrijus: nice journal entry. I always enjoy reading about such great productivity and fun :)
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10:55 nothingmuch morning
10:56 nothingmuch is there any attempt yet at implementing luqui's tuple type from the theory stuff?
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12:19 * nothingmuch 's plans for the next incarnation of Blondie are getting formulated
12:19 nothingmuch first: a bit more lambda calculousish - application is implicit, parameter less application is just the value
12:19 nothingmuch that makes things slightly simpler
12:20 nothingmuch second: full polymorphic type inferrence
12:20 nothingmuch with luqui's complicated tuple type
12:20 nothingmuch later versions of Blondie 2 will have the ability to disable, delay or subvert the type system
12:20 nothingmuch all the context of static compilation
12:34 masak ?eval my $a="hi\n"; chomp $a; $a.chars
12:34 evalbot_7211 3
12:34 integral nothingmuch: does Blondie have a concrete syntax, or is it all just specifying ASTs directly for now?
12:34 masak is this correct behaviour?
12:34 nothingmuch it'll never have a concrete syntax... too much work, too little benefit, IMHO
12:34 nothingmuch think of Blondie as PIL's little brother
12:35 nothingmuch it supports less features
12:35 nothingmuch and that makes it easier to check how to make PIL behave under the big handwaving that static perl 6 is right now
12:36 masak ah, never mind...
12:36 integral ah, ok.
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12:41 nothingmuch integral: another reason I'm not using PIL is that the issue with environments is not yet 'linker' like enough
12:41 nothingmuch the process of synthesizing a single AST from an AST and an env is not quite there yet
12:43 integral yeah
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13:47 * nothingmuch committed some new tests for L::AG
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14:37 gaal yo
14:38 rafl geoffb: What's up?
14:41 nothingmuch hi ho
14:42 * rafl want's liqui back
14:42 nothingmuch liqui?
14:42 nothingmuch is that luke's evil twin?
14:43 rafl I mean Luke, of course.
14:44 nothingmuch back from where?
14:46 * nothingmuch really hates microsoft
14:46 nothingmuch my sister asked me to open her an msn account
14:46 nothingmuch part of their license agreement is e.g. i agree to receive periodical targeted advertizement
14:47 nothingmuch oh well.. at least i own the mail server. If she had a hotmail account I bet she wouldn't even be allowed to mark it as spam
14:59 stevan geoffb: ping
14:59 stevan morning guys :)
15:00 dudley morning, stevan
15:00 stevan hey dudley :)
15:00 * stevan had an epiphany about method dispatch while taking the dog out to crap
15:01 dudley ooh, a poo-related epiphany. Those are the best :)
15:01 dudley so, enlighten us...
15:01 stevan BTW - if anyone is remotely interested in meta-stuff,. The Art of the MetaObject Protocol is such an excellent book I cannot recommend it enough
15:02 stevan dudley: well, my problem is that I want to make a real-world usable version of the MM
15:02 dudley naturally
15:02 stevan so I done have to do any more p5 OO
15:02 dudley Can't say I blame you for that :)
15:02 stevan the biggest hurdle is getting around the p5 method dispatch
15:03 stevan I wrote Class::C3, which just 'caches' the right methods in the packages local namespace
15:03 nothingmuch hi ho
15:03 stevan it does the trick,.. but it doesnt smell right
15:03 stevan then I benchmarked AUTOLOADing every method
15:03 stevan its ~500% slower than normal dispatch
15:03 stevan which is not okay :)
15:04 stevan then... when I was taking the dog out,.. it hit me
15:04 stevan no need to penalize everyone,..
15:04 stevan so this is my plan
15:04 stevan regular local dispatch is done as normal
15:04 stevan but I store my own superclasses
15:04 stevan no @ISA
15:05 stevan then I install an AUTOLOAD in each class which will handle any dispatching to superclasses
15:05 stevan at this point,..I can control the dispatch to use C3 instead of depth-first
15:05 stevan and it shouldnt be too hard to do method caching
15:05 stevan or at a minimum memoization of the method lookup
15:06 rafl nothingmuch: Back from wherever he is. I want to talk to him, but I'm too lame to write a mail.
15:07 nothingmuch rafl: when you find him, make him svk pull from his repo
15:08 rafl nothingmuch: OK, why?
15:08 nothingmuch because i added a bunch of tests to L::AG
15:08 rafl Ah, please exand L::AG. :-)
15:08 gaal fe
15:08 nothingmuch Language::AttributeGrammar
15:09 rafl Ah, fine.
15:09 nothingmuch http://svn.luqui.org/svn/misc/luke/work/cod​e/perl/modules/Language-AttributeGrammar/t/
15:09 nothingmuch basic.t and errors.t
15:09 dudley stevan: is that in Class::MetaModel or whatever your module is called?
15:09 stevan dudley: yes, it will go in there
15:10 nothingmuch stevan++; # that sounds like a very nice plan
15:10 stevan thanks :)
15:10 nothingmuch you've got to give perl 5 OO the credit of being minimal enough to be able to do all this crap, though =)
15:10 stevan oh yeah,.. p5 OO is a great reseach tool
15:11 stevan I am continually amazed at the silly crap I can do
15:11 * stevan is also planning a pure lambda calculus version of the mini-meta-model, .. but he needs to read more TaPL for that :)
15:12 nothingmuch eeeep
15:12 nothingmuch please waste your time more constructively ;-)
15:12 nothingmuch new parrot is out
15:12 stevan this coming from the man who wrote Blondie ;P
15:12 nothingmuch hey! Blondie is useful
15:12 stevan *cough* crachhead *cough*
15:13 * nothingmuch learned a *lot* from blondie
15:13 * stevan learned a lot from writing fp::lambda
15:13 nothingmuch errm, church integer stuff?
15:14 nothingmuch ;-)
15:14 stevan not that so much as the list implementation
15:14 nothingmuch okay okay
15:14 nothingmuch i'll shutup =)
15:14 stevan church numeral are a little bit silly :)
15:14 stevan no no,.. i'll shutup :)
15:14 nothingmuch no, please... i'll shut up
15:14 stevan no no,.. I insist
15:14 nothingmuch shutup! i'll shutup!
15:15 stevan :P
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15:15 * dudley is a step ahead of nothingmuch and stevan for once
15:15 nothingmuch ?
15:15 dudley I shut up a while ago
15:15 nothingmuch ah
15:15 nothingmuch dudley++
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15:17 nothingmuch http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=​Administrative_Normal_Form&amp;action=edit
15:17 nothingmuch can someone please fill this in?
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15:23 * stevan is off to do $real_world @chores &
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16:51 * nothingmuch goes to visit a friend
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18:11 putter stevan: re mm optimization, note that P6::Value/Container lack a number of simple optimizations.  so optimizing mm may not be the right thing.  eg, there are isa methods which just call ::next method.  which give caching additional payoff, but really just need to be removed.
18:12 putter that said, stevan++ ;)
18:12 putter &
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18:18 putter stevan: oh, and most of the AUTOLOAD usage should really be removed.  eg order-100 line AUTOLOAD wrapping a bunch of things which should be separate methods.  looks like a historical development artifact.
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18:19 autrijus greetings lambdacamels.
18:19 * autrijus notices a bouncing putter
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19:28 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
19:28 Aankhen`` G'night.
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20:17 rafl Do we have an svk mirror of parrot on feather?
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20:54 rafl Are there recordings of some talks some lamdacamels gave about p6/pugs?
21:02 fglock rafl: there is docs/talks, and there is http://www.perl.org/yapc/2002/movies/themovie/
21:04 rafl fglock: Already seen docs/talks, but it's hard to follow the talk while only seeing the slides. Especially those of iblech, imho.
21:04 rafl flgr_: Thanks for the movies link. I'll look at it tomorrow. Looks a bit outdated, though.
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21:09 fglock rafl: there's a Pugs movie link here: http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal/26035
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21:11 rafl fglock: Well, funny, but not that informative. :-)
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22:18 svnbot6 r7212 | Darren_Duncan++ | /modules/Rosetta-Incubator : set svn:mime-type and svn:eol-style properties on all 3 files
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22:33 nothingmuch evening
22:33 nothingmuch irssi is stupid
22:33 nothingmuch it thinks it's 00:33, but it's 1:33
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23:06 putter stevan: Method (superclasses) not found for instance (#<Role=(14)>) at ../pugsxpl2/perl5/Perl6-MetaModel2.0/lib/chaos.pl line 438
23:07 putter oh.  doh.
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