Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-05

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:39 svnbot6 r7294 | Darren_Duncan++ | /modules/Rosetta-Incubator : updated all 15 lib/*.pm files so that the file contents match the external file names rather than being generic templates; replaced all occurances of 'Foo' and '0.0.0' with correct class names and versions; filled in the correct NAME and VERSION and LICENCE AND COPYRIGHT documentation for each module
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06:08 geoffb putter or fglock, what % of test suite does PIL-Run pass?
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06:22 svnbot6 r7295 | Darren_Duncan++ | /modules/Rosetta-Incubator : added new file /MANIFEST.SKIP
06:25 obra seen autrijus
06:25 jabbot obra: autrijus was seen 7 hours 20 minutes 31 seconds ago
06:41 gaal geoffb: ping
06:42 geoffb gaal, pong
06:42 gaal heya :)
06:42 gaal see http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl
06:42 gaal around 55% according to the latest smokes there.
06:42 geoffb gaal, yeah, found http://smoke.pugscode.org/
06:42 gaal oh wait, those are old, it seems
06:43 geoffb autrijus++ # new easy to remember URL
06:43 gaal whee
06:43 geoffb putter, fglock, nevermind my last question, but please check STATUS (which I'm about to commit fixes for) to make sure PIL-Run status is reasonable
06:45 geoffb OK, committed.
06:46 geoffb Autrijus: I think I've mostly done the STATUS updates, but I might have dates or details wrong.  Please give it a looksee.
06:46 svnbot6 r7296 | geoffb++ | Extensive updates to STATUS
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07:02 * geoffb plays with a one-liner to determine the commit rankings . . .
07:04 geoffb I'm impressed; 50% of 113 committers can claim 9+ commits; 25% can claim 24+; 10% can claim 150+.  Pretty well spread out.
07:04 geoffb And even autrijus and iblech combined do not add up to 50%.
07:05 geoffb Mmmm, well-rounded committing . . . .
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07:15 geoffb Make that 112 committers -- an oversimple regex had created a committer with a whitespace name with 14 commits.  :-)
07:16 coral heh
07:19 geoffb OK, time to attempt sleep
07:19 geoffb & # sweet, sweet slumber
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07:33 gaal the open :w bug is very weird. I can't reproduce it; named arguments to Prelude's open seem not to be bound.
07:34 luqui could have something to do with "is primitive"?
07:34 gaal hmm, let's see.
07:35 gaal wow, good guess
07:35 gaal it indeed looks like it breaks named args.
07:35 gaal luqui++
07:37 * luqui has had problems with is primitive before
07:40 gaal doExtract doesn't handle SubPrim, I wonder if that's the reason.
07:40 gaal oops, it does
07:40 gaal in the _ clause
07:42 gaal do you see any effective difference between doExtract SubBlock and doExtract _
07:42 gaal ?
07:42 gaal Parser:309
07:43 gaal doExtract _ formal body = (body, names', params)
07:43 * luqui looks
07:43 brentdax Hmm, I suppose I should implement a block cipher next.
07:43 gaal is the repetition of 'body' bad?
07:43 gaal brentdax: the masses want fortuna! ;-)
07:44 gaal (there's no reference implementation though)
07:44 brentdax gaal: Maybe once I finish with the ciphers.
07:44 gaal yeah, that order does make sense :)
07:45 brentdax (And fortunately, although there's no reference implementation, I happen to have just acquired a copy of /Practical Cryptography/, which defines Fortuna.)
07:46 luqui gaal, yeah, I can see a difference
07:46 luqui but I don't know quite what it means
07:46 luqui what does extract do?
07:47 gaal it's eventually used to populate env with subParams etc.
07:48 gaal ruleSubDeclaration and retVerbatimBlock
07:48 gaal er, not env
07:48 gaal the actual sub
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07:49 gaal brentdax: there's a patch to linux that implements Fortuna for /dev/random, but it has a few kernelisms.
07:50 brentdax I know.
07:50 brentdax (We're also lacking hashing algorithms in pure Perl 6...)
07:50 gaal Cipher::Digest?
07:51 brentdax Nah, digests aren't ciphers.  I think they'd be under Digest::.  (I'm thinking about moving everything to be under Crypt::, though--Crypt::Cipher, Crypt::Digest, Crypt::Random...)
07:52 brentdax (Although digests are used for more than cryptography.)
07:53 gaal Oh, I tought your Cipher was to be a general crypto API.
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07:54 brentdax It's to be a general API for encryption algorithms.  Everything under Cipher:: should derive from or compose into the Cipher class; it doesn't make sense for hash algorithms and such to do so.
07:55 gaal linux has the transform layer above that... what do they use it for?
07:57 brentdax Dunno, I haven't looked at Linux's crypto in depth.  (I think Wikipedia linked to the Fortuna patch, though.)
07:58 brentdax Oh...can you `does` a class, or do you have to `is` it?
07:59 gaal you do a role, no?
07:59 luqui under theories you `does` a class
07:59 gaal happily, luke's here to answer that! :)
07:59 luqui but currently you can only `is` classes
08:00 brentdax Ah, okay.
08:01 brentdax Oooh, TEA looks easy to implement.
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08:07 gaal 32 bit block, right?
08:07 * luqui just learned RSA in school :-)
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08:14 brentdax 64-bit block, 128-bit key.  The "T" is for "Tiny", and it deserves the name.
08:14 brentdax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Encryption_Algorithm
08:17 luqui ooh, designed by David Wheeler
08:17 luqui cool
08:35 brentdax ?eval my @ary = 0..255; say @ary.splice(0, 16, []).perl; @ary.elems
08:35 evalbot_7296 15 241
08:36 brentdax Hmm... $situations_where_i_would_like_autochaining_methods++;
08:37 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say @ary but { .splice(0, 16); }.elems
08:37 evalbot_7296 Error: Undeclared variable: "@ary"
08:37 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say @a but { .splice(0, 16); }.elems
08:37 evalbot_7296 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&elems"
08:37 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say (@a but { .splice(0, 16); }).elems
08:37 evalbot_7296 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&elems"
08:37 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say @a but { .splice(0, 16) }
08:37 evalbot_7296 16171819202122232425262728293031323334353637383940414243444546474849505152535455565758596061626364656667686970717273747576777879808182838485868788899091929394959697989910010110210310410510610710810911011111211311411511611711811912012112212312412512612712812913013113213313413513613713813914014114214314414514614714814915015115215315415515615715815916016116216316416516616716816917017117217317417517617717817918018118218318418518618718818919019119219319
08:37 luqui almost there
08:38 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say elems(@a but { .splice(0, 16) })
08:38 evalbot_7296 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&elems"
08:38 luqui ?eval my @a = 0..255;  say +(@a but { .splice(0, 16) })
08:38 evalbot_7296 240 bool::true
08:38 luqui that's the ticket
08:38 brentdax (In this case, I have to have block ciphers implement _zeroize, because Cipher::Block has state to zeroize too.)
08:39 luqui zeroize?
08:39 brentdax "Oh shit, the secret police are breaking in, delete everything now!"
08:39 brentdax You overwrite all the keys and intermediate data with zeroes--hence, zeroize.
08:40 brentdax (It's also a good behavior for a destructor.)
08:40 luqui ahh
08:40 luqui like shred, but in memory
08:40 brentdax Yup.
08:41 brentdax You can see why I'm asking for `is sensitive` on p6l.
08:41 gaal won't randomize be more secure, assuming there's time?
08:42 gaal "throw the deck in the air" in solitaire :)
08:42 * luqui wonders how 'is sensitive' would be implemented given the high level of abstraction
08:43 brentdax Heh.  Schneier actually recommends against throwing the deck in the air--apparently a lot of the order is retained when you do that.  He says you should just calmly shuffle the deck.
08:43 luqui it might be tough to keep from accidentally making a cow copy somewhere or something
08:44 brentdax You might have to disable a lot of magic like that, but if you're applying `is sensitive` you're already saying you care more about secrecy than speed.
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08:45 gaal i thought it takes seven shuffles to "really" randomize?
08:45 svnbot6 r7297 | gaal++ | pugsbugs for `is primitive` and named params
08:46 gaal (this one's a showstopper since it breaks open)
08:47 brentdax gaal: Yes, but you have to get by with what you can.
08:49 luqui brentdax, yeah, but that kind of magic happens at the VM level
08:49 luqui and, for instance, the JS backend would not be able to do anything about it
08:49 brentdax True.  Hmm.
08:49 luqui what would it take to write a parrot-specific module to do that?
08:49 luqui i.e. is it modulable at all?
08:53 brentdax I'm not sure you can hook into stings at low enough levels.  (e.g. you'd have to know when a string grows so you could zero over the old buffer.)  Meh.
08:54 brentdax s/stings/strings/
08:55 brentdax Hmm...is it a Good Thing or a Bad Thing when you know that adding documentation to a module will probably triple its length?
08:56 * luqui likes that
08:57 svnbot6 r7298 | gaal++ | add test temp file to svn ignore list, these are sadly not removed automatically on Windows
08:58 brentdax Okay, Cipher::Block and Cipher::TEA are written.  Now to get some test vectors.
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09:06 autrijus gaal: fixing
09:07 autrijus ...except your test passes for me here. weird
09:11 autrijus gaal: the bug might be because I turned off magical pair handling for primitives.
09:11 autrijus because otherwise
09:11 autrijus ~(x => 3)
09:11 autrijus will not stringify
09:12 autrijus gaal: but really, your test succeeds for me :-/
09:14 autrijus there need to be a trait that says "positionals only" it seems.
09:14 * autrijus ponders
09:14 autrijus or just have ~() accept pairs.
09:15 autrijus Pair.prefix:<~>
09:15 wolverian you mean prefix:<~> (Pair)?
09:15 gaal whoops, back
09:15 autrijus yeah
09:15 gaal i TODO'ed it, ja
09:15 wolverian good, I thought I had missed something :)
09:15 autrijus gaal: no, it unexpectedly passes.
09:16 gaal hmm
09:16 autrijus try it?
09:16 gaal sec
09:17 gaal silly windows shell, ^C does break...
09:17 autrijus anyway, I attempted another kluge
09:17 autrijus namely only real builtins accept all-positionals
09:18 autrijus and user defined primitives still handles named
09:18 autrijus it feels klugy, so better ideas welcome.
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09:21 gaal !
09:21 gaal unexpected success here too. weird, because it did fail previously.
09:21 gaal does io.t pass for you?
09:22 autrijus I doubt so as open :w is shown to not work
09:22 gaal t/builtins/io/io.t
09:22 autrijus I'm recompiling, a sec
09:22 autrijus it fails as expected.
09:22 luqui autrijus, with that kludge, how do we get operator adverbs
09:23 luqui ?eval say (1..10 :by(2))
09:23 evalbot_7298 Error: cannot cast from VBool True to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
09:23 autrijus luqui: we don't, so you better think of some way so we can safely demagicalize pairs
09:23 autrijus oh wait, you already had.
09:23 autrijus ;)
09:23 luqui :-)
09:23 autrijus int(x => 1)
09:24 autrijus is there some way in &int's prototype to saw we don't want named on the first positional field, short of falling back to *@_ ?
09:24 autrijus and *@_ is bad since we want item context
09:25 luqui sub int((Item, Pair) $x) {...}
09:25 autrijus ooh new syntax.
09:25 autrijus what's the , ?
09:25 luqui I think Larry went with that as a synonym (in type position) for (+)
09:25 autrijus but how do I say, then, it demands Int context?
09:25 luqui hmm
09:26 autrijus sub int ((Item, Pair) $x is context(Int)) ?
09:26 luqui that's getting pretty heavy
09:26 autrijus it's also not what most people can intuit.
09:26 autrijus me included.
09:26 luqui I mean, you really want:  sub int (Int $x) { $x }
09:26 luqui but a Pair is not an int, so it would never fit in there
09:26 autrijus sub int (Int =$x)
09:27 luqui ?
09:27 autrijus sub int (Int $x is positional is coerced)
09:27 autrijus or something like that.
09:27 autrijus sub int (Any $x as Int) {}
09:27 autrijus better?
09:29 autrijus anyway, the prototype of ".." needs some thinking.
09:29 autrijus I mean, signature.
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09:31 svnbot6 r7299 | brentdax++ | Cipher API work-in-progress check-in:
09:31 svnbot6 r7299 | brentdax++ |   * Cipher::Block
09:31 svnbot6 r7299 | brentdax++ |   * Cipher::TEA
09:31 svnbot6 r7299 | brentdax++ | I haven't even tried compiling these, let alone making sure they work properly.  I'm particularly concerned about TEA and byte-order issues...
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09:31 autrijus gaal: io.t now still fails, albeit at a different place. please investigate
09:31 brentdax And with that, it's time for bed.
09:31 luqui sub infix:<..> (Int $left, Int $right, *%adverbs) {...}
09:32 autrijus luqui: not +$by ?
09:32 * brentdax &
09:32 luqui that works too
09:32 autrijus luqui: and it's a multi for Int/Int for Str/Str ?
09:32 luqui oh, that, right
09:32 autrijus how does (1 .. '3') work?
09:32 autrijus and how does (1 .. $pair) work?
09:33 luqui autrijus, 1..'3' is an error unless Int does Str
09:33 luqui how is 1..$pair supposed to work?
09:33 autrijus which it does via coercion, no?
09:33 autrijus say 1; # look works
09:33 luqui (oh, what is a pair in item context?)
09:33 autrijus luqui: exactly.
09:33 luqui so in that case, Int does Str
09:33 gaal autrijus: ack
09:34 luqui which is something I've been saying all along
09:34 autrijus I know, but not part of canon
09:34 autrijus that, and demagical pairs
09:34 luqui anyway, this comes back to the semantics of coersion
09:34 autrijus namely, &coerce:<as>
09:34 luqui which have definitely not been worked out
09:35 autrijus and how compiler inserts those forms.
09:35 autrijus *nod*
09:35 luqui to me, &coerce:<as> takes a thing on its left side and a *context* (not a type) on its right
09:36 luqui and then the compiler inserts coerce:<as> everywhere
09:36 svnbot6 r7300 | autrijus++ | * Repair open :w using a terribly kluge that tests the
09:36 svnbot6 r7300 | autrijus++ |   subroutine body for Primness, and if it's Prim, don't
09:36 svnbot6 r7300 | autrijus++ |   accept named arguments but use coercion instead.
09:36 svnbot6 r7300 | autrijus++ |   It's a horrible kluge -- we need something like that
09:36 svnbot6 r7300 | autrijus++ |   at language level!
09:36 luqui but there is special support for when coerce:<as> is a no-op
09:36 luqui that is, the compiler should know that
09:36 autrijus by context, you mean
09:37 luqui however we end up telling it...
09:37 autrijus CxtClurpy Type | CxtItem Type | CxtVoid
09:37 autrijus so it still carries a type
09:37 luqui yeah
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09:37 autrijus then we have first-class contexts? ;)
09:37 autrijus how lovely.
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09:38 luqui however, coerce:<as> is a really funny thing
09:38 luqui in order to make that play well with the typecheck
09:38 luqui er
09:38 luqui all its logic pretty much has to be in its signature(s)
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09:39 autrijus aye.
09:39 luqui i.e.  multi coerce:<as> (@array, Item of Num $cxt --> Int) {...}   # array becomes integer in numeric context
09:40 luqui omitting the --> clause is unacceptable
09:40 autrijus *nod*
09:41 * autrijus feels a distinct need of formalization / visiolization.
09:41 svnbot6 r7301 | gaal++ | readline should not have used guardIO, go back to tryIO undef
09:41 gaal when readline reaches EOF, it shouldn't raise an exception. but other read errors should probably fail loudly, no?
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09:42 * luqui agrees
09:42 * luqui wonders if he's the one who should do it
09:43 autrijus gaal: yes, you may need to have a guardIOwith form or something
09:43 autrijus which would involve case-analyzing the ioError
09:43 autrijus or
09:43 autrijus guardIOexcept
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09:43 autrijus guardIOexcept :: IOError -> IO a -> Eval a
09:44 autrijus or even
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09:44 gaal [IOError] perhaps?
09:44 autrijus guardIOexcept :: (IOError -> Maybe a) -> IO a -> Eval a
09:44 autrijus the idea is using predicates to maybe catch it
09:44 autrijus uncaught ones are thrown again
09:45 autrijus or using data driven way:
09:45 autrijus guardIOexcept :: [(IOError, a)] -> IO a -> Eval a
09:45 autrijus or even
09:45 autrijus guardIOexcept :: [((IOError -> Bool), a)] -> IO a -> Eval a
09:46 autrijus guardIOexcept [(isEOFError, undef)] $ do ...
09:46 gaal guardIOwithASieve
09:46 autrijus the isEOFError predicate is convenient here
09:46 gaal ah, yes, nice.
09:46 autrijus anyway, improvise. I need to nap a bit more :)
09:47 gaal enjoy
09:47 autrijus luqui: I confirm your wondering :)
09:47 luqui oh, we already do have first-class context, do we not?
09:47 luqui ?eval say want
09:47 evalbot_7301 Scalar (Any), LValue bool::true
09:48 autrijus luqui: we do, except how it is defined is undefine
09:48 autrijus d
09:48 autrijus so I cheated with a Str.
09:48 gaal can someone on linux please svn up and tell me if io.t crashes for them near the end?
09:48 autrijus I wonder if we want tagged unions for that. or just a Context interface with Item/Slurpy classes.
09:48 gaal trying to figure out if this failure is win32 specific.
09:48 * luqui thinks it is probably just a union
09:49 autrijus luqui: is tagged unions canon yet? ;)
09:49 luqui most definitely.  no idea how they're spelled, but they're there
09:49 autrijus or is MMD visitors so strong that we don't need the counterpart in the expression problem setting?
09:49 luqui hmm?
09:50 luqui elaborate
09:50 autrijus luqui: with strong OO-MMD all functional visitors with tagged unions can be rewritten with roles
09:50 autrijus hence there are people who argue we'd only need one or the other.
09:50 autrijus Scala of course got both.
09:51 autrijus gaal: fbsd
09:51 autrijus # Looks like you planned 55 tests, but ran 52
09:51 autrijus *** tempfile.3702.956: openFile: resource busy (file is locked)
09:51 autrijus    at tmp-Prelude.pm line 310, column 18-61
09:51 luqui Scala didn't get both, because scala forgot that case types are union types
09:51 luqui if you have Foo = Bar | Baz, there is no guarantee in Scala  that there is not a Quux that is also a Foo
09:51 autrijus so they are open like OCaml unions
09:52 autrijus which may or may not be a feature :)
09:52 autrijus but yeah, it's different from ordinary algebraic variant types.
09:52 gaal autrijus: close doesn't :-(
09:52 luqui it looks like it until you think about contravariant typing
09:52 autrijus luqui: yup.
09:53 autrijus but I really need to doze off. bbiab :) &
09:53 * luqui thinks he will write up a coersion proposal
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09:53 luqui night
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10:03 joao_ good $localtime
10:06 gaal heya
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10:13 gaal $todo.add("make io fails appear to originate in calling code, not the prelude; or at least give a stack trace")
10:22 gaal what's todo_fail been renamed to?
10:22 gaal fail .. :todo?
10:25 gaal (yes :)
10:25 kgftr|konobi autrijus don't suppose you happen to know of any 'stemmers' for chinese (ie: for search engines) [OT i know, but damn freenode doesn't allow prvmsg]
10:26 svnbot6 r7302 | gaal++ | introduce guardedIO, which is like boolIO but fails on errors.
10:26 svnbot6 r7302 | gaal++ | use in close and soon other ops.
10:28 broquaint win 5
10:28 broquaint Dagnabbit.
10:29 gaal hrm?
10:30 luqui kgftr|konobi, freenode doesn't allow prvmsg?
10:30 gaal you need to be identified by nickserv.
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10:32 svnbot6 r7303 | gaal++ | fix test (this involved making sure files are closed before opening
10:32 svnbot6 r7303 | gaal++ | them again; should this really be needed?)
10:35 kgftr|konobi last time i registered with freenode i got spammed with "please donate" etc, so never again
10:36 joao registering gives you the possibility to identify yourself. that's the main reason, for me :-) And I don't remember to receive those messages
10:36 luqui what?  never happened to me
10:36 broquaint Oh no not spam!
10:37 broquaint They have that on the internet now?
10:37 joao is now known as jff
10:37 jff is now known as joaoferreira
10:38 gaal kgftr|konobi: spammed with /msgs or by email?
10:38 joaoferreira sorry guys:
10:38 joaoferreira [11:37] -NickServ-Freenode is a service of Peer-Directed Projects Center, an
10:38 joaoferreira [11:37] -NickServ-IRS 501(c)(3) (tax-exempt) charitable and educational organization.
10:38 joaoferreira [11:37] -NickServ-For frequently-asked questions about the network, please see the
10:38 joaoferreira [11:37] -NickServ-FAQ page (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml).
10:38 joaoferreira this is the message
10:38 joaoferreira where's the spam? :D
10:38 joaoferreira is now known as joao
10:38 kgftr|konobi gaal: e-mail
10:38 joao oh
10:39 joao They don't require the email, do they?
10:39 gaal don't give them your email then :)
10:39 joao :)
10:39 kgftr|konobi they used to
10:40 gaal don't now.
10:40 kgftr|konobi oh... works now... yay!
10:40 joao but I think you could provide the value: noemail
10:40 joao (not sure, though)
10:40 gaal (opt-out)--
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10:51 theorbtwo kgftr|konobi, mind if I hit you up for 802.11 configuration advice?
10:55 gaal advice the first: close telnet :)
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10:56 theorbtwo orafu, of course, if anybody else wants to help, speak now and I'll spam the channel with off-topic stuff.
10:57 theorbtwo Dammit, irssi completion is getting rather annoying.
10:57 theorbtwo s/orafu/or/
11:00 luqui ?eval sub f ($x) { say $x }  f { 1 }.()
11:00 evalbot_7303 1 bool::true
11:00 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x) { say @x }  f { 1 }.()
11:00 evalbot_7303 <SubBlock(<anon>)> Error: cannot cast from VBool True to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
11:00 luqui if anything that seems backwards
11:00 luqui maybe it's a slurpy block thing
11:00 joao ?eval 42.shift()
11:00 evalbot_7303 42
11:01 joao what should be the error?
11:01 broquaint ?eval ().shift
11:01 evalbot_7303 undef
11:01 luqui "shift: method not found"?
11:01 joao ok, the usual
11:02 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x, *&slurp) { say "args: @x[]; block: " . &slurp }  f { 1 }.()
11:02 evalbot_7303 Error:  unexpected "." expecting operator, ":", ",", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
11:02 luqui heh, perl5+perl6)/2
11:02 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x, *&slurp) { say "args: @x[]; block: " ~ &slurp }  f { 1 }.()
11:02 evalbot_7303 Error: Slurpy array followed by slurpy scalar: MkParam {isInvocant = False, isOptional = False, isNamed = False, isLValue = True, isWritable = False, isLazy = False, paramName = "&slurp", paramContext = CxtSlurpy (mkType "Code"), paramDefault = Noop}
11:02 luqui no silly, that's a slurpy block!
11:03 luqui ?eval sub f (*&slurp, *@x) { say "args: @x[]; block: " ~ &slurp }  f { 1 }.()
11:03 evalbot_7303 args: ; block: <SubBlock(<anon>)> Error: cannot cast from VBool True to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
11:03 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x, *&slurp) { say "args: @x[]; block: " . &slurp }  f({ 1 }.())
11:03 evalbot_7303 Error:  unexpected "." expecting operator, ":", ",", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or "}"
11:03 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x) { say @x }  f({ 1 }.())
11:03 evalbot_7303 1 bool::true
11:03 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x) { say @x }  f ({ 1 }.())
11:03 evalbot_7303 1 bool::true
11:03 luqui ?eval sub f (*@x) { say @x }  say f {1}.()
11:03 evalbot_7303 <SubBlock(<anon>)> Error: cannot cast from VBool True to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
11:03 luqui hm
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11:21 svnbot6 r7304 | gaal++ | move some more Prims to guarded IO; guardIOexcept coming soon.
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11:25 kgftr|konobi theorbtwo: sure
11:38 theorbtwo Ah, exelecent!
11:38 theorbtwo Sorry I didn't notice you earlier -- three machines and several windows on this one is not condusive to noticing everything that's going on...
11:40 kgftr|konobi =0P
11:41 theorbtwo Bah, and my pcap is apparently in a borked half-upgraded state, need to reboot my router.
11:42 theorbtwo Can you join #foobarbaz to avoid spamming this channel, and so that Jess can possibly fill you in while it's rebooting?
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12:10 nothingmuch moose
12:12 gaal elk!
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12:15 svnbot6 r7305 | gaal++ | guardIOexcept, used in readline (where else do we need it?)
12:16 * nothingmuch wonders how much it will be to make the type inferrencer's nullary ops become parametrized
12:16 nothingmuch and then making the unification code behave like theorys
12:16 nothingmuch theories
12:17 nothingmuch seen luqui
12:17 jabbot nothingmuch: luqui was seen 1 hours 13 minutes 33 seconds ago
12:17 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
12:17 nothingmuch luqui: ping
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12:23 luqui nothingmuch, pong
12:24 * luqui figures he should do some type inference exercises
12:24 luqui to figure out how one might actually do it over theories
12:26 luqui gnop
12:26 luqui &
12:33 nothingmuch que es gnop?
12:33 nothingmuch i was meaning to ask how L::AG is progressing
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12:38 luqui 'gnop' eq reverse 'pong'
12:39 luqui @Larry (notably al and pmichaud) and I are talking about the parrot port of L::AG
12:39 nothingmuch what does it mean in the context?
12:39 luqui unpong?
12:39 nothingmuch what does pong mean in the context?
12:40 luqui basically, pong respond to your ping, and then I realized that I had to go again, so I unresponded
12:40 luqui heh
12:40 nothingmuch ah
12:40 luqui other than that L::AG is not coming
12:40 luqui I'll have some reasonable hacking time come the weekend
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13:20 nothingmuch luqui: i have a problem
13:20 nothingmuch type::operator::nary: layout($$) = { join(" ", $.name, map { layout($$) } @{ $.params }) }
13:20 nothingmuch type::operator::binary: parenthesize($$) = { $$->isa("type::operator::pair") || level($$) }
13:20 nothingmuch i can't inherit level to any child in $.params
13:21 nothingmuch how could i hack in support for level(@.params) = { level($$) }
13:21 nothingmuch and then say layout(@.params); # map { layout($_) } @{ $.params }
13:24 nothingmuch luqui.ungnop
13:37 luqui well, of course you could always build a cons list and do it that way
13:37 nothingmuch eep
13:37 nothingmuch that's not perl like =)
13:37 luqui but as far as level(@.params) = ...
13:38 luqui well, the current architecture will let you do that
13:38 luqui (not hard to hack in)
13:38 nothingmuch yeah, seing the code i figured it out
13:38 luqui but once I switch to the memory-friendly version, it might not be so easy
13:38 nothingmuch since attrdef = attr <perl_block ()>
13:38 nothingmuch that's what i was really concerned about - that the next version should not lock this out
13:39 luqui I think it's doable as long as @.params is uniformly typed
13:39 nothingmuch that is an easy promise to make
13:39 luqui uh huh
13:39 nothingmuch that is, if @ISA is respected by L::AG
13:39 nothingmuch they are all ->isa("type")
13:40 luqui oh, by uniformly typed, I mean has the same set of attributes defined on it
13:40 nothingmuch ah
13:40 nothingmuch hmm
13:40 luqui as in, they are all cases of the same nonterminal
13:40 nothingmuch teh sux0r
13:40 luqui I think your grammar is a single-nonterminal grammar anyway, so you don't have to worry
13:40 nothingmuch que es nonterminal?
13:40 luqui AGs come from CFG-land
13:41 nothingmuch CFG?
13:41 luqui context-free
13:41 nothingmuch ah
13:41 nothingmuch i dunno much about that
13:41 luqui nonterminal appears on the left side of the colon
13:41 luqui so, traditionally, you have:
13:41 luqui foo: bar baz | quux
13:41 luqui each of the things on the right ("bar baz" and "quux") is a production
13:42 luqui you associate a set of attributes for each *nonterminal*, whereas you provide different implementations for each *production*
13:43 luqui you can also think of it this way:  data Foo = Bar | Baz
13:43 luqui Foo is the nonterminal, Bar and Baz are the productions
13:43 luqui so if you have a tree where every node can be anything, then that is a single-nonterminal grammar
13:43 nothingmuch okay
13:43 luqui and uniformedly-typedness is guaranteed
13:43 nothingmuch so how does that help me? ;-)
13:44 * nothingmuch fails to make the link
13:44 luqui that means that, for your grammar, layout(@.params) will be possible
13:44 luqui because @.params will all be cases of the same nonterminal
13:45 nothingmuch but they won't
13:45 luqui really?  your layout grammar has more than one nonterminal?
13:45 nothingmuch list a has only one child in @.params
13:45 nothingmuch it's type::operator::nary->new(list => type::variable::free->new);
13:46 nothingmuch but you can parametrize types over N types
13:46 nothingmuch that is, you can parametrize nary type operators over N type parameters
13:46 luqui let me ask you this:  are there any types in your AG that have an attribute that another type doesn't?
13:47 nothingmuch oh
13:47 nothingmuch i thought that by the same attrs you meant same definition of attrs
13:47 nothingmuch not same names
13:47 luqui nononono, that wouldn't be useful at all
13:48 nothingmuch right
13:48 nothingmuch well, not now
13:48 nothingmuch but that's only because some aren't used
13:48 nothingmuch there is no reason not to have them
13:48 nothingmuch (but it would be nice if they were auto generated ;-)
13:49 luqui anyway, I'm going to take a nap.  Long day ahead, and haven't slept enough.  
13:49 * luqui the sleep pussy &
13:49 nothingmuch ciao
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13:58 * joao is surprised. These guys really sleep :)
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13:59 nothingmuch =)
13:59 nothingmuch *fzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* went my brain
14:00 nothingmuch when typing length :: list a -> int somehow an instantiated variable gets instantiated into itself
14:02 iblechbot has joined #perl6
14:05 nothingmuch oh, right
14:05 nothingmuch since it remains generic it's the same var.
14:05 nothingmuch doh!
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14:16 bhoult is there a way to get perl to log every program that it runs?
14:16 nothingmuch bhoult: yes, but that is entirely un perl related
14:16 nothingmuch what you need to do is create a C wrapper
14:16 nothingmuch that logs argv to a file
14:16 nothingmuch and then execs perl with the same args
14:16 nothingmuch and then put that in place of perl
14:17 nothingmuch and rename perl to perl_orig or something like that
14:17 QtPlatypus bhoult: Perhaps you should ask on one of the #perl channels
14:17 bhoult ok, thanks.
14:17 QtPlatypus nothingmuch: Personally I would run perl under a truss and then look for the exec'es
14:18 nothingmuch then you understood differently than I did
14:18 nothingmuch i thought he wanted it to log every script that is run by perl
14:18 nothingmuch and you thought he wanted it to log every command that a perl script runs
14:19 bhoult I want it to log every script that perl runs.
14:20 nothingmuch btw, QtPlatypus: http://search.cpan.org/~rclamp/Devel-System-0.01/lib/Devel/System.pm
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14:29 nothingmuch bzzt again
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14:37 svnbot6 r7306 | autrijus++ | * listop was too eager in globbing up block arguments:
14:37 svnbot6 r7306 | autrijus++ |     f{1}.()
14:37 svnbot6 r7306 | autrijus++ |   should mean f({1}.()), not (f{1}).().  Thanks to Shillo
14:37 svnbot6 r7306 | autrijus++ |   for reporting it.
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14:40 PerlJam I find it really magical in a way that I can read about a bug on p6l and then when I look at #perl6 it contains comments to the effect that the bug has been fixed.
14:40 PerlJam :-)
14:41 nothingmuch oh moose!
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14:54 * eric256 continues his quest to learn haskell....this isn't soo bad realy once you start to get some understanding of it ;)
14:54 svnbot6 r7307 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
14:54 svnbot6 r7307 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/strings/length.t: chars "abcdef" > 4 should (and is) the same as
14:54 svnbot6 r7307 | iblech++ |   chars("abcdef") > 4.
14:54 svnbot6 r7307 | iblech++ | * t/pugsbugs/primitive_named_params.t: Fixed and unTODOed the test.
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14:55 autrijus eric256: the distance from 0 to 1 is larger than 1 to maxint :)
14:55 eric256 autrijus -> zen master
14:56 eric256 lol
14:56 autrijus gaal: you made mkdir etc into guardedIO
14:56 autrijus which means they raise exceptions
14:56 autrijus but in perl5 they merely return false
14:56 autrijus that's a change of semantics... I wonder if it's warranted.
14:57 * nothingmuch tests his connection
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14:57 autrijus maybe it will push us into implementing fatalism properly
14:57 * autrijus ponders.
14:58 autrijus wow, TSa bowed out.
14:58 autrijus the same moment as I rebilled the 6.2831 milestone into something more concrete ;)
15:00 evalbot_7307 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:00 svnbot6 r7308 | autrijus++ | * redefine "runtime role composition other features" in the
15:00 svnbot6 r7308 | autrijus++ |   6.2831 milestone as "type system and linking".
15:01 evalbot_7308 has joined #perl6
15:03 nothingmuch bowed out of what?
15:03 eric256 he bowed out of the mailing ilst
15:04 eric256 of course then he also asked questions in his message ..... seemed kinda drama queen ish
15:04 * nothingmuch will have a look
15:06 nothingmuch i didn't even understand his goodbye
15:06 evalbot_7308 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:06 svnbot6 r7309 | nothingmuch++ | Blondie's milner.pl
15:06 svnbot6 r7309 | nothingmuch++ | * recursive functions, and generic recursive functions
15:06 svnbot6 r7309 | nothingmuch++ | * initial generic vars includes the ones from the prelude (silly me ;-)
15:06 evalbot_7309 has joined #perl6
15:08 kolibrie wow # re TSa
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15:11 * nothingmuch wonders why so many people are wasting their time gauging and inspecting kwalitee
15:13 Limbic_Region dunno
15:14 Limbic_Region my one and only module is lacking pod coverage testing and dependency in another module
15:14 Limbic_Region I am not going to worry about that
15:14 eric256 kwalitee?
15:15 nothingmuch Limbic_Region: the problem is that instead of pod coverage they are testing for a test that tests pod coverage
15:15 nothingmuch they are completely insane
15:15 nothingmuch eric256: kwalitee is a measure of how good a module is
15:15 nothingmuch based on some traits of the distribution
15:16 nothingmuch "it sounds like quality, but it isn't exactly quality"
15:16 nothingmuch they test every dist on cpan
15:16 nothingmuch and make sure that:
15:16 nothingmuch it expands properly, it has META.yml, it has a Makefile.PL or a Build.PL, it has a license, a README, a Changelog, etc
15:16 nothingmuch which is, on the whole, OK
15:17 nothingmuch but they're really getting carried away on the perl-qa list
15:17 nothingmuch adding weird metrics for these things
15:17 nothingmuch which make absolutely no sense
15:17 nothingmuch and my grudge about it is that so much effort is going into it, when it could be wasted on actually improving a modules *interface*
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15:21 gaal autrijus: well, we have to hash out lexical pragmas for that....
15:22 gaal and yeah, i wasn't sure aboubt semantics; i thought everything is fail-based now except when it obviously doesn't make sense (like readline)
15:23 nothingmuch gaal.ping( efilnikufesin )
15:24 wilx has joined #perl6
15:24 gaal nothingmuch.pong(what!?)
15:25 nothingmuch nay nay, efilnikufesin is someone you know
15:25 nothingmuch ping him
15:25 gaal is he!?
15:25 nothingmuch yes
15:25 nothingmuch the other yuval from israel.pm
15:25 efilnikufesin yup
15:26 gaal efilnikufesin: i'm glad irssi has nick completion. ping.
15:26 efilnikufesin heh, sorry, freenode wouldn't let me use my regular nickname
15:26 nothingmuch yeah, I hasn't read past 'efi' yet myself ;-)
15:26 efilnikufesin SO I had to come up with an [not so] original one
15:27 gaal and hi :)
15:27 gaal (i have to go for a while in about 2)
15:27 efilnikufesin it's an Anthrax song, nothingmuch :)
15:27 nothingmuch i dunno who anthrax are
15:28 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
15:28 gaal nothingmuch: won't your proposal for `is sensitive` be utterly slow?
15:28 gaal gotta moose. later! &
15:28 nothingmuch no
15:29 nothingmuch type inferrence should figure out what types could any container possibly contian
15:29 nothingmuch and generate code to raise events only for containers that could contain types with events
15:30 SamB nothingmuch: you seem to expect an awful lot from type inference...
15:30 nothingmuch yes
15:31 nothingmuch i think it's the key to allowing dynamic languages to actually at all in the context of the dynamism that perl 6 will have
15:31 nothingmuch now, ofcourse, if there is a balance, you don't need to invoke it
15:32 evalbot_7309 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:32 nothingmuch for example, if you know there are no events for tainting
15:32 evalbot_7310 has joined #perl6
15:32 nothingmuch or no slow thingies around
15:32 nothingmuch then you don't need to infer types to make sure you are not doing slow things where you don't need to
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ | * Moved the now succeeding
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ |   t/pugsbugs/{parsing_hash,attribute_list,parsing_braces_in_rules}.t out of
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ |   pugsbugs/.
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ | * Note that map-and-sort-in-for.t and grep-and-sort-in-for.t would pass too,
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ |   if "grep { 1 } @array" parsed (it did, but probably the . precedence fix
15:36 svnbot6 r7310 | iblech++ |   broke it).
15:44 rafl Is it possible to build a pugs shared library?
15:45 eric256 heheh my tutorial hit a part where they use a continuation to mimick a fold ..... but i wasn't realy friends with fold to start with. ;) and the \x  + function calling with no parans or commas left me a little lost. ;)
15:46 eric256 gonna try an reright the example with better variable names than x t and g .lol
15:46 nothingmuch rafl: autrijus is working on it (the cabalization stuff relates to that)
15:47 rafl nothingmuch: Ah, fine. Will it be part of 6.10?
15:47 rafl Err, 6.2.10.
15:47 nothingmuch i dunno
15:47 rafl Who was that guy that wanted to port parrot to VMS? dudley_ maybe?
15:47 dudley_ Yeah, that was me
15:48 dudley_ That was back when I had a much more plentiful tuit supply, though
15:51 * eric256 finds a typo in the example...that made a bid difference ;)
15:52 rafl My dict doesn't know about tuit. What's that?
15:52 nothingmuch you mean a big difference
15:52 eric256 that too
15:52 nothingmuch rafl: when you get to it
15:52 nothingmuch get tuit
15:52 nothingmuch or get a round tuit
15:52 SamB rafl: they come in round or square
15:52 nothingmuch that means you have time
15:52 rafl OK, thanks.
15:52 SamB a round tuit == "around to it"
15:53 nothingmuch when someone says they will do something when they get around to it
15:53 rafl Ah, now it actually makes sense. :-)
15:53 nothingmuch you can give them one of these: http://www.myrtlewoodgallery.com/get_a_round_tuit.htm
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15:53 rafl OK, does the cabal stuff already work? What's the prefered way of building pugs?
15:54 nothingmuch autrijus: ping
15:55 rafl Woo.. compiling the prelude seems to be broken.
15:55 rafl    unexpected "j"
15:55 rafl    expecting expression
15:55 rafl    at tmp-Prelude.pm line 245, column 19
15:56 nothingmuch the prelude is preprocessed?
15:56 eric256 haskell q:   can i add parans around functino calls to make them clearer?
15:56 eric256 tried making cfold' f z (x:xs) = f x z (\y -> cfold' f y xs) into cfold' f z (x:xs) = f( x z (\y -> cfold' f y xs)) but it gets mad and spews lots of errors
15:57 integral eric256: you need to use them like in Lisp (f args), not f(args)
15:58 eric256 ahh. thanks
15:58 rafl nothingmuch: It's precompiled for performance reasons, afaik.
15:58 integral you can also use $ to chain functions together as it is very low precedence: f x $ \y -> ... === f x (\y -> ...)
15:58 nothingmuch i know it's compiled, and then the hs code is preprocessed
15:58 nothingmuch but tmp-Prelude.pm is kind of weird
15:58 eric256 (\y ) is a continuatino being passed to f in this case
16:03 * nothingmuch wonders what happenned to iblech
16:04 autrijus rafl: fixing
16:04 rafl autrijus: Thanks.
16:10 * eric256 beleives he finaly understands the continuations example....first time this guy picked realy bad variable names and reused the same names in different functinos for different uses....oiu
16:10 nothingmuch eric256: what example is that?
16:11 svnbot6 r7311 | autrijus++ | * Fix prelude parsing; the last "fix" prevented the
16:11 svnbot6 r7311 | autrijus++ |     map { ... } @foo
16:11 svnbot6 r7311 | autrijus++ |   form, which is doubleplus nongood.  rafl++
16:14 eric256 nopaste
16:14 eric256 lol. i can never remember how to wake that bot up.
16:14 eric256 perlbot nopaste
16:14 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
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16:15 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.70 pasted "Continuations with Folding" (4 lines, 118B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13477
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16:15 eric256 one part still has em confused in the fourth line it does
16:16 eric256 f x (g t)   -- what is happening with the g t there?
16:16 eric256 i think they are being pass to x wich is a function at that point, but i'm not certain
16:17 * nothingmuch 's brain starts fizzing and bubbling again
16:18 eric256 yea i don't think its the best example for a begginers tutorial. lol
16:18 qwr eric256: g is probably a function and t is applied to it
16:19 qwr eric256: f x returns function and (g t) result is applied to the returned value
16:19 * rafl want's to check in a first version of his XML::SAX port. It doesn't do anything usefull currently, but I'd like to have some help because I run into somthing that seems to be a pugs bug.
16:19 rafl checking it in seems a quite easy way so everyone can take a look at the code and play around with it.
16:20 qwr eric256: together it's like two arguments to f (called currying)
16:20 eric256 thanks qwr...your right...i'd been looking at it from the wrong angle
16:21 eric256 somehow i forgot all about the recursive part of the fold...that makes nearly perfect sense now....not enough to rewrite the example coherntly but enough for the momemnt
16:21 eric256 mement.  thanks
16:22 gaal rehi
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16:25 svnbot6 r7312 | rafl++ |  r16678@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-05 18:24:00 +0200
16:25 svnbot6 r7312 | rafl++ |  * Added first bits of an XML::SAX port. Doesn't do anything useful yet.
16:25 svnbot6 r7313 | rafl++ |  r16679@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-05 18:24:40 +0200
16:25 svnbot6 r7313 | rafl++ |  * Removed some accidently checked-in auto-generated files.
16:25 evalbot_7312 has joined #perl6
16:28 rafl Would someone please try to execute 'XML::SAX.load_parsers.perl.say' and tell me why the generated code doesn't contain the expressions captured in line 45? And why the generated code can't be evaled again.
16:28 Southen_ has joined #perl6
16:29 rafl Looks like a kind of pugsbug to me.
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16:39 autrijus looking.
16:39 xinming_Beijing has joined #perl6
16:39 stevan hey autrijus :)
16:40 autrijus yo stevan :)
16:41 autrijus I need some brains to think about perl5/ installation problem
16:41 autrijus as currently, when you "make install" pugs, "pugs -BPerl5 ..." does not work
16:41 autrijus because metamodel etc are not installed.
16:41 GeJ has joined #perl6
16:42 kolibrie eric256: which haskell tutorial are you following?  /me might try if it's working for you
16:42 autrijus I can see two options; one is to move them /en masse/ into pugs's perl6 sitelib
16:42 autrijus under perl5/ too
16:42 stevan hmm
16:42 stevan do we really need to install that stuff?
16:42 stevan by default I mean?
16:42 autrijus another option is to install them as regular CPAN modules; either bundling, or list them as optional dependency and release them separately to cpan.
16:42 autrijus stevan: that's part of the question yes.
16:43 autrijus "release them separately" means they are likely to be useful without pugs.
16:43 autrijus if so, we can list a Bundle::Pugs and list them
16:43 autrijus and they'd follow their own schedule
16:43 autrijus if not, then install them all into p6 sitelib makes sense.
16:43 autrijus ideas?
16:44 stevan hmmm
16:44 stevan thinking
16:44 autrijus cool, I'm taking a cycle to look at XML::SAX
16:44 kolibrie they'll only be needed for -BPerl5 once MM2 is haskelized?
16:44 stevan when do you plan to release?
16:44 autrijus stevan: in 48 hrs
16:44 nothingmuch autrijus: i need advice
16:44 stevan I think the shorter route is best then
16:44 autrijus kolibrie: "they" means -BJS and -BPerl5
16:44 nothingmuch i'm pondering implementing type::operator::typeclass
16:44 stevan putting into lib/
16:45 autrijus kolibrie: has nothing much to do with MM2/Haskell runcore
16:45 nothingmuch and type::operator::oo
16:45 autrijus nothingmuch: in p5 for blondie?
16:45 nothingmuch in the milner script right now
16:45 autrijus stevan: which lib? lib6?
16:45 nothingmuch to be backported to plondie
16:45 nothingmuch blondie
16:45 nothingmuch typeclass is kind of trivial
16:45 autrijus nothingmuch: okay. advice?
16:45 stevan autrijus: whichever one is easier
16:45 kolibrie autrijus: I thought "they" were the perl5 metamodel modules
16:45 nothingmuch but how would OO be compiled to a lambda calculous?
16:45 nothingmuch without losing information?
16:46 autrijus kolibrie: that, and PIL2JS, and PIL-Run, and Perl6-*
16:46 nothingmuch i guess i need to look at CLOS
16:46 Southen has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
16:46 stevan I know I wont have enough tuits over the next 48 to put the MM up on CPAN seperately
16:46 autrijus nothingmuch: you use recursive polymorphic record types.
16:46 nothingmuch that sounds scary
16:46 autrijus nothingmuch: see OCaml, or better TaPL, about featherweight java :)
16:46 nothingmuch tapl hasn't arrived yet =(
16:46 nothingmuch i wish it will
16:46 nothingmuch this stuff would be *so* much easier
16:47 nothingmuch essentially we have two record types
16:47 nothingmuch for every two record types
16:47 nothingmuch we have another type that is the set of keys which both share?
16:47 nothingmuch that is their supertype?
16:47 autrijus stevan: okay. in that case I'll install everything into perl6's sitelib as perl5/
16:47 autrijus stevan: and we can figure out proper partition laterz
16:48 stevan yes
16:48 stevan I will need to chat with putter and fglock
16:48 autrijus nothingmuch: usually OO needs subtyping.
16:48 kolibrie (less work)++
16:48 stevan re: p5 stuff
16:48 autrijus nothingmuch: the could be nominal subtyping, where each type remembers its parents
16:48 autrijus nothingmuch: or structural subtyping, where any record type can subtype another simply by containing the same fields.
16:49 autrijus nothingmuch: perl6 is definitely nominal.
16:49 stevan nothingmuch: OO in pure lambda calculus ,.. hmmm ;P
16:49 autrijus nothingmuch: see O'Haskell page for further enlightenment
16:49 eric256 kolibrie - http://www.isi.edu/~hdaume/htut/ is the tutorial i'm following. working well for me
16:49 autrijus (and my GHC hackery would help to bring them into reality)
16:49 nothingmuch isn't theory.pod all about saying that perl 6 is nominal typing appearance in structural typing semantics?
16:49 autrijus nothingmuch: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~nordland/ohaskell/survey.html
16:50 autrijus nothingmuch: yes.
16:50 autrijus nothingmuch: it layers a structural (duck) foo on top of nominal (type) bar.
16:51 nothingmuch duck?
16:51 autrijus "if it can do such and such things it's naturally of this type"
16:51 autrijus without predeclaration
16:51 kolibrie eric256: thanks
16:52 nothingmuch ah
16:52 * nothingmuch will try to do typeclasses
16:52 nothingmuch and then record types
16:52 nothingmuch with simple nominal inheritence
16:53 nothingmuch and then try to reimplement that with structural semantics
16:53 * stevan has to $work &
16:53 nothingmuch and then try to make it support OO better
16:53 nothingmuch and then try to translate it all to theories
16:53 nothingmuch luckily it's the holiday season
16:53 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, did you edit the overview please? hmm, I checked out the latest revision just now, and found overview has been updated. So, May I know where the modification is... So, I can update these information.
16:53 nothingmuch i should have lots of vacation time in the next month
16:53 autrijus xinming_Beijing: one single update, line 169:
16:53 autrijus  <li>6.2831: 型别系统(type system)与链接(linking)。</li>
16:54 nothingmuch anyway, dinnertime
16:54 nothingmuch then I have to finish the rule translation
16:54 autrijus xinming_Beijing: following the CUFP presentation, I've refined the 6.2831 milestone from the vague "random runtime features like role composition" into the more specific "type system and linking".
16:54 autrijus nothingmuch: cool, much thanks
16:55 nothingmuch autrijus: is the plan sensical? or am i missing too much knowlege?
16:55 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, the word "type" in Simplified Chinese, It's normally called "类型" or "型号", I will update it soon. :-)
16:55 autrijus nothingmuch: it's sensical and I think you'll enjoy figuring out things
16:55 autrijus xinming_Beijing: please do update it :)
16:55 autrijus xinming_Beijing++
16:55 nothingmuch alrighty
16:56 nothingmuch luqui - i need $grammer->ammend('foo: ...') to add attribute defs to grammars
16:56 nothingmuch i don't need it, but it would be nice
16:56 * nothingmuch hates ACM more every time he reads the words "controlled feature"
16:56 autrijus er, "amend"
16:56 nothingmuch spelling was never my forte
16:56 nothingmuch never will be
16:56 autrijus xinming_Beijing: also, is "macros" "宏集"? I thought it's "宏"
16:57 autrijus the milestone after that
16:57 nothingmuch autrijus: yesterday or before you mentione "From ML Type Inference to Stratified Type Inference"
16:57 autrijus nothingmuch: yes, two-phase inference.
16:57 nothingmuch i can't find anywhere except acm
16:57 autrijus nothingmuch: can't be.
16:57 nothingmuch perhaps it's a slightly diff title?
16:58 nothingmuch http://www.google.com/search?num=30&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;safe=off&amp;client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=%22From+ML+Type+Inference+to+Stratified+Type+Inference%22&amp;btnG=Search
16:58 autrijus http://cristal.inria.fr/~fpottier/publis/pottier-regis-gianas-05.pdf
16:58 xinming_Beijing autrijus: normally 宏
16:58 nothingmuch grazie
16:58 xinming_Beijing autrijus: If we use macros set, then 集 must be used.
16:59 autrijus k
17:02 autrijus but it's not a set
17:02 autrijus it's just macros
17:02 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, But I will update it also, In fact, I can understand what macro mean. And 巨集 is also used from some old-days books, hmm, IIRC The earlier book also 软体. But now, all books use 软件
17:02 autrijus so please fix as desired
17:03 autrijus yeah. those are zh-tw words :)
17:03 xinming_Beijing autrijus: then, It must be 宏
17:03 autrijus cool
17:03 xinming_Beijing I did a fix to it
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17:11 svnbot6 r7314 | yiyihu++ | * Correct a translation for the word "macro"
17:11 svnbot6 r7314 | yiyihu++ | * Update the overview according to the modification.
17:11 rafl autrijus: Found something out about that strange XML-SAX behaviour?
17:18 geoffb nothingmuch, what does ACM mean by "controlled feature"?
17:18 geoffb autrijus, did you get a chance to look over/correct my STATUS update from last night?
17:19 nothingmuch geoffb: that i need to pay to read the article
17:19 geoffb oh.  ewww.
17:19 geoffb Hmmm.  How much does ACM membership cost?  Don't members get free access?
17:19 autrijus rafl: I see Features
17:19 autrijus ('Features' => {.})
17:19 geoffb (Not that I at all disagree that paying for basic CS knowledge is very, very sad . . . .)
17:20 autrijus rafl: \Class.new(('known_parsers' => [{('Features' => {.}), ('Name' => MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 1, matchTo = 19, matchStr = "XML::SAX::PurePerl", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}})}, {('Features' => {.}), ('Name' => MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 1, matchTo = 16, matchStr = "XML::SAX::Expat", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}})}, {('Features' => {.}), ('Name' => MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 1, matchTo = 25, matchStr = "
17:20 joao nothingmuch, do you need ACM articles?
17:20 joao ;)
17:20 nothingmuch joao: not right now
17:20 PerlJam geoffb: It used to be about $25/year for students and $100/year for non-students for ACM membership.  I don't know what it is these days.
17:20 rafl autrijus: Yes, but Features should have a hash as its value.
17:20 nothingmuch autrijus found something for me
17:20 joao nothingmuch, if you need, I can try to get it...
17:21 nothingmuch okay
17:21 nothingmuch legally?
17:21 joao Yes
17:21 joao I have full access to the ACM portal
17:21 rafl autrijus: Not something that is a syntax error when serialized using .perl.
17:21 geoffb PerlJam, ah.  Not as bad as I expected
17:21 nothingmuch so wait, they charge for the storage and retrieval? they don't have the copyright on the actual articles?
17:21 autrijus geoffb: I did and it looks good. I think I need to transclude the "toward 6.28.0" plan from my journal to there
17:21 autrijus geoffb: help welcome, or I can do it myself
17:21 joao nothingmuch, but some articles that are listed there can't be downloaded
17:21 autrijus rafl: oh, you think it's a .perl bug?
17:22 geoffb autrijus, if it's just C&P, go for it.  If you have to think, I can take a look in a bit.
17:22 joao nothingmuch, the have copyrights, I suppose
17:22 joao nothingmuch, but they provide pdf's and html version of their papers
17:22 joao to members
17:22 nothingmuch anyway, i'll remember to bug you when i hit a wall the next time
17:23 joao sure
17:23 PerlJam geoffb: Ah, according to their website, it's $99/year for "professionals" and $198/year for professional membership plus ACM Digital library.
17:23 PerlJam (and other stuff)
17:23 joao If you need from other scientific resources I can try to get it too :)
17:23 joao elsevier, ..
17:23 autrijus geoffb: I have to think about the org, but I want your column more :)
17:23 joao PerlJam, yes, but for students is cheaper
17:24 PerlJam joao: yeah,  they have all sorts of different plans for students.  The cheapest appears to be about $20/year.
17:24 geoffb PerlJam, so ~$200 to be able to read the articles.  Annoying but not horrible for a CS pro in the US, but pretty brutal for non-pros / non-US types
17:24 PerlJam looks like $42/year for membership + digital library (for students)
17:24 geoffb autrijus, OK, then article comes first.  Hope it lives up to the hype -- I've got sick head today.
17:25 * geoffb rants uselessly about how much sinus infections suck
17:25 PerlJam and $62/year if you want the subscription to Communications of the ACM
17:25 PerlJam (as a student)
17:25 joao yes
17:25 joao that's it (I guess)
17:25 * PerlJam hasn't been an active member of the ACM in almost 10 years.
17:26 rafl autrijus: Yes. @config[-1]{"Features} seems to have the right content.
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17:35 wolverian PerlJam, our university provides access to the ACM digital library, which is nice
17:35 xinming_Beijing hmm, what's the differences between `{}' and `do { }' are please?
17:35 PerlJam wolverian: cool
17:35 PerlJam xinming_Beijing: "do "
17:36 xinming_Beijing closure seems to be a do command.
17:37 xinming_Beijing does `do' here mean do immediately. and closure will "do" while you are calling it?
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17:38 joao {} is not haskell valid syntax, is it? :)
17:38 autrijus xinming_Beijing: do{} is an expression that evaluates the block; {} is just a block.
17:39 eric256 joao i think he meant in pugs
17:39 PerlJam xinming_Beijing: {} makes a closure in some contexts,  do{} just executes the code in {}
17:39 joao oh :)
17:39 joao stupid me
17:39 mikemonster has left
17:39 nothingmuch sub do (&code) { code() }
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17:40 wolverian xinming_Beijing, in void context closures are automatically run - I think they're equivalent to 'do { }' there
17:40 autrijus rafl: got it. fixink
17:40 wolverian I also seem to remember that they're run in 'sub foo { bar; { ... } }' automatically, which is somewhat bizarre
17:41 autrijus wolverian: but if you want to return {}, you can write return {}.
17:41 wolverian autrijus, right, but it makes no sense to me.
17:41 wolverian I recall someone explained the logic to me last time, sorry if I'm bothersome :)
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17:42 PerlJam Perl6 just looks for a leading pair to distinguish {}-hash c'tor from {}-closure c'tor, right?
17:42 autrijus rafl: "our" does not work yet, that's why.
17:43 autrijus rafl: or maybe not, hm. still thinking
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17:56 autrijus rafl: turns out may be due to depth...
17:56 autrijus the "." was abbreviated "..."
17:56 autrijus I increased the depth. recompiling
17:57 autrijus yup. increased so it dumps until level 1024.
17:58 autrijus rafl: fixed. thanks!
18:00 gaal yo. t/builtins/arrays_and_hashes/pairs.t:73 parsefails. should it?
18:00 gaal $hash_of_1_pair.pairs.sort.map:{ .key~'='~.value }.join( ',' )
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18:03 autrijus aw, must be due to the new blockdot bug
18:03 svnbot6 r7315 | autrijus++ | * Increase .perl's recursion level so it won't turn into "..."
18:03 svnbot6 r7315 | autrijus++ |   until level 1024 -- in contrast to 10 before.
18:03 svnbot6 r7315 | autrijus++ | * Also, when it does reach there, output "{...}" instead of "{.}".
18:03 autrijus I posted p6l for clarif
18:03 autrijus s/bug/fix/
18:04 autrijus s/fix/bug/
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18:04 autrijus anyway, I'm fixing the bug. or bugging the fix.
18:04 gaal big flop operator, or flip bug
18:04 xinming_Beijing hmm, In fact, after `$var ?? true :: false' 's changed into !!, I wonder if !! will be the specification, As Larry said to use it for a week. :-)
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18:09 svnbot6 r7316 | gaal++ | getc, like readline, needs guardIOexcept [(isEOFError, undef)]
18:15 autrijus gaal: you saw my comment re mkdir?
18:15 autrijus btw, parser fix bugged, committing after test
18:16 gaal autrijus, yes, sounds like a reason to push lexical pragmas in :)
18:17 nothingmuch hmm
18:17 gaal i don't mind reverting to undef in this release of course, if we won't make it
18:18 autrijus I don't mind it being fatal either.
18:18 autrijus anyway, the parsing fix is in.
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ | * gaal reported the block parsing fix is still buggy, so now
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |   I made sure that adverbial blocks parse differently from
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |   nonadverbial ones:
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |     pugs> :d f{x}.z
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |     App &f (: App &z (Syn "sub" {sub {...}}: ))
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |     pugs> :d f:{x}.z
18:21 svnbot6 r7317 | autrijus++ |     App &z (App &f (: Syn "sub" {sub {...}}): )
18:21 nothingmuch can anyone help with finding out what PGE emits for e.g. p6rule_like('abcdef', 'bcd', qr/0: <bcd @ 1>/, '$0 capture'); ?
18:22 nothingmuch #parrot people are not responding
18:22 autrijus ok, I'll shift to perl5 installation
18:22 autrijus then back to cabalization
18:22 autrijus nothingmuch: ...particle is handling it now
18:22 gaal i gotta run for a bit... later! &
18:23 dduncan goodbye and hello
18:23 dduncan I understand that today's focus is getting the tests to work, for a 6.2.10 release, later today or so?
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18:25 autrijus dduncan: yes!
18:25 autrijus dduncan: changelog too
18:26 dduncan I hear you
18:26 svnbot6 r7318 | nothingmuch++ | Some [slightly broken] progress in milner.pl
18:26 svnbot6 r7319 | gaal++ | some TODOifications
18:28 marklar has left
18:28 joao nothingmuch, which articles are you reading to make the implementation?
18:29 nothingmuch joao: so far only the one mentioned in the comments
18:29 joao let me see :)
18:29 nothingmuch Basic Polymorphic Typechecking
18:29 nothingmuch it was very nice
18:31 joao thanks
18:32 svnbot6 r7320 | nothingmuch++ | Oh shit! The reason the test failed was that the wrong variable name was used (list_plus_ten or plus_ten)
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19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ | * Moved t/pugsbugs/{map-and-sort-in-for,grep-and-sort-in-for}.t out of
19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ |   pugsbugs/, as grep { 1 } @array works again, autrijus++
19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ | * t/statements/do.t: Should "do 42" work?
19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ | * t/pugsbugs/{cast_undef_shortcircuit,parsing_if,attribute_of_return_value}.t:
19:03 svnbot6 r7321 | iblech++ | * unEVAL.
19:03 autrijus iblech: blib6/lib/perl5/* .
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19:05 * autrijus also needs to list optional deps
19:06 obra Somehow, I saw "optional sleep"
19:07 autrijus I think you need mandatory sleep.
19:07 autrijus :)
19:07 obra :)
19:08 vel_ has left
19:09 svnbot6 r7322 | autrijus++ | * copy perl5/ into blib6/lib/perl5/ for installation.
19:19 * eric256 needs extended sleep ;)
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19:23 dduncan quick question: does the current pugs support an equivalent to Perl 5's concept of labels, such as one can use with a 'next' or 'last' or etc?
19:23 autrijus eric256: you can get an extra-large dose of sleep :)
19:23 dduncan attempting to use them like in perl 5 was a compile error; commenting them out made compile work
19:23 autrijus dduncan: no, it's planned along with gaal's pragma work.
19:24 dduncan so I'll commit with them commented out, then
19:24 autrijus may or may not make the release; if not, then after the release
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19:24 nothingmuch GRR
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19:24 saorge has joined #perl6
19:24 * nothingmuch is leaking closures somewhere
19:24 autrijus nothingmuch: mm?
19:24 saorge_ has joined #perl6
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19:24 autrijus p5 closures?
19:24 autrijus you can trivially leak them ;)
19:24 nothingmuch no, it's more than that
19:25 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 82.81.247.180 pasted "the bad code" (16 lines, 358B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13483
19:26 eric256 haskell feels alot like pascal sometimes....keyword/module/pacakge wise. at least from what i remember of evil pascal
19:26 nothingmuch for some reason $against gets 'abc' twice when it should be getting 'abc' and then 0
19:26 * nothingmuch slaps eric256
19:26 nothingmuch don't you dare speak about haskell that way
19:26 eric256 lol
19:26 * nothingmuch taught pascal recently
19:27 nothingmuch it sucks so bad i'd prefer to be a wartime prostitute than a pascal programmar
19:27 eric256 LOL
19:27 eric256 and they insist on teaching it in school
19:27 * autrijus mumbles something about fortran.
19:28 nothingmuch haven't done that
19:28 autrijus good, because you'd rather be a wartime soldier than a fortran programmer
19:28 * dudley_ mumbles something about DEC BASIC
19:29 geoffb .oO( VAX Assembly -- I got the last year of it, before my university switched to teaching MIPS )
19:29 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, How can we get the current time string using localtime please?
19:29 xinming_Beijing `localtime time` doesn't work. :'(
19:29 autrijus in p5?
19:29 xinming_Beijing no pugs
19:29 xinming_Beijing in pugs
19:29 nothingmuch OMG!!!!!!!!!! I AM SUCH AN IDIOT
19:29 * nothingmuch was programming bash in perl
19:30 nothingmuch used $1 instead of $_[0]
19:30 nothingmuch which was already shifted into $str anyway
19:30 autrijus xinming_Beijing: or no, I'm not sure. look at src/perl6/Prelude.pm
19:30 autrijus there's no stringification method there
19:33 svnbot6 r7323 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : corrected 2 files so that everything compiles; in KeyedText.pm, commented out any labels used with next/last (todo, uncomment when labels implemented); in t_LKT_Util.pm, corrected an actual syntax error
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19:34 nothingmuch woot!
19:34 nothingmuch first ~150 tests programmatically ported to parrot
19:34 nothingmuch no Test::Base yet
19:34 nothingmuch but it's easy to split that up
19:35 xinming_Beijing I will get {obj:Time::Local} for the function localtime, Is that the right behavior?
19:35 autrijus xinming_Beijing: yes, but it really needs a good stringification method
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19:37 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, so, IMHO, `localtime time` should return the current time "string"
19:37 autrijus xinming_Beijing: under string context, yes.
19:37 xinming_Beijing hmm, I don't mean the string itself, But just what pugs should print.
19:37 autrijus yes.
19:37 autrijus I totally agree.
19:37 autrijus write a TODO test for it please.
19:38 autrijus something that compares "{localtime}" against '{obj:Time::Local}' and see they don't match.
19:38 autrijus :todo<feature>
19:38 nothingmuch p6rule_is("xyz", '\By\B', 're_tests 138  (#168)');
19:38 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("Sleep [Time wasted online: 8hrs 42mins 59secs]")
19:38 nothingmuch err, wrong channel
19:39 PerlJam hey, today is wednesday isn't it?
19:39 autrijus yes.
19:40 eric256 some places it is ;)
19:40 PerlJam perl6cabal have their phone conferences on wednesdays.  autrijus, you should join in  :)
19:40 autrijus PerlJam: should I. I'm not in the cabal, you know :)
19:40 PerlJam autrijus: no, but you might as well be.  :)
19:40 autrijus I was invited in the sketch
19:41 autrijus but it's semipublic -- #parrotsketch on irc.perl.org -- transcripts are published, and all is welcome to observe
19:41 autrijus (as in, +m)
19:41 eric256 sketch? cabal?
19:41 autrijus but not the phone conference or the cabal list.
19:42 autrijus eric256: I guess these should be in the FAQ...
19:42 eric256 hehe.
19:42 autrijus eric256: re sketch, see http://use.perl.org/~jesse/journal/26995
19:42 autrijus re cabal, it's the sixperl list of perl six design team
19:43 autrijus with weekly conference calls summarized by luqui
19:43 autrijus # http://use.perl.org/~luqui/journal/
19:43 obra all of this is syndicated to planetsix.perlfoundation.org
19:43 autrijus right, which is the One True Portal to all your perl6 news!
19:44 obra woot!
19:44 autrijus (suggest new feeds as appropriate to obra.)
19:44 obra thank god. perl6 has one true SOMETHING
19:44 eric256 i didn't even know that part. (about the one true portal, well actualy most of that)
19:44 autrijus obra: ;)
19:44 autrijus it also has one true operator.
19:44 autrijus ?eval true 'ring'
19:44 evalbot_7312 bool::true
19:44 autrijus see?
19:44 obra what? the hotsprings operator?
19:44 autrijus it rings true
19:44 * obra groans
19:44 stevan has joined #perl6
19:44 autrijus bad-joke-r-us
19:47 autrijus eric256: anyway, the cabal's existence was not well publicized until this year
19:47 autrijus eric256: but its members can be tracked at http://dev.perl.org/perl6/people.html
19:47 autrijus which for some reason is missing obra and pmichaud.
19:48 * eric256 feels as if he suddenly realized the world is run by secret clubs
19:48 autrijus eric256: it's time for you to get illuminated
19:49 autrijus you can begin by reciting "Hail Eris".
19:50 autrijus eric256: anyway, so when you see @Larry, that is synonymous to cabal.
19:51 eric256 your such a wealth of information, if your not carefully they might have you wacked for spreading there secrets ;)
19:51 autrijus that is why I am actually a committee
19:51 autrijus you can't squash us all!
19:52 * autrijus feeds eric256's paranoia some more
19:53 G2 has joined #perl6
19:53 eric256 lol
19:54 * eric256 suddenly has the image of a thousand tiny men inside of a Humanoid robot. ;)
19:54 wolverian autrijus, except when cabal is the haskell release tool..
19:54 autrijus we are actually a thousand humanoid robot inside a person
19:54 wolverian (haskell, for discriminating oppressors?)
19:55 autrijus we have a dream: one day children of silicon can join hands with children of carbon, and one will be judged by one's .chars instead of one's .elems...
19:55 G2 has quit IRC (Client Quit)
19:56 wolverian heh, I immediately thought "perl vs lisp"
19:57 dduncan I've discovered an issue with the current pugs, which may be known, where testing a method argument for definedness returns true even when the arg is explicitly passed undef
19:57 autrijus dduncan: write a test?
19:58 dduncan I'm trying to recreate it outside of my module
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20:01 RIAQ has left
20:01 nothingmuch damnit
20:02 nothingmuch there is some lossy data
20:02 autrijus ok, perl5 installation done.
20:02 autrijus whew.
20:03 Qiang hi , autrijus. back to tw ?
20:03 joao obra, why obra?
20:04 autrijus Qiang: no, in eu
20:04 svnbot6 r7324 | nothingmuch++ | partial conversion - currently non-refactored
20:04 svnbot6 r7325 | autrijus++ | * For perl5 helpers like -BPerl5 and -BJS, adjust the search path
20:04 svnbot6 r7325 | autrijus++ |   for the "perl5" library in the order of:
20:04 svnbot6 r7325 | autrijus++ |     '.', '../..', $installsitelib, $sourcedir
20:04 svnbot6 r7325 | autrijus++ |   that is mainly to facilitate debugging during development.
20:04 Qiang can never figure out where you are. hehe
20:05 Qiang finland ?
20:05 obra joao: totally random two syallable word. no relation to any real word
20:05 joao obra, ok, it's a portuguese word :)
20:05 obra Yep. I was at yapc.eu this year. I saw ;)
20:05 obra Also spanish
20:06 joao yaps, do you know what it means?
20:06 joao I was at yapc.eu too :-)
20:06 autrijus hm, what's wrong with ext/Getopt-Long/t ? maybe it should be moved as t_disabled as there is no code.
20:06 autrijus I'll do exactly that
20:06 autrijus Qiang: correct.
20:07 autrijus Qiang: going to stockholm, then amsterdam, then stockholm
20:07 * eric256 has a hard enough time affording staying in one place ;)
20:07 joao autrijus, how much is a plain  ticket from "europe" to taipei?
20:07 Qiang nice. hope you have a good time besides pugs :)
20:07 autrijus Qiang: in fact, yes, but pugs is the foreground :)
20:07 autrijus going to places is, as you know, akin to changing desktop wallpapers to me.
20:08 autrijus joao: usd$1k, if booked in advance.
20:08 joao not cheap :)
20:09 Qiang hhe. nice comparesion
20:09 autrijus far from it.
20:09 autrijus I mean, far from cheap.
20:09 svnbot6 r7326 | nothingmuch++ | nested groups in rules.t converter
20:11 Qiang that's the advantage of not having to work full-time. but still how you can do the conference thing beyong my believe.
20:12 autrijus that's the advantage of minimizing the Real World window :)
20:12 autrijus the disadvantage is, of course, that you miss the ultra high resolution "physics" engine.
20:12 Qiang you can always do that later  :)
20:12 Qiang so when are you back to tw ?
20:13 autrijus not sure there will be a reality around in a few decades, but one can hope.
20:13 autrijus Qiang: in november
20:13 Qiang err . :D
20:13 autrijus Qiang: I'll stay thru the lunar new year, then start wandering around europe indefinitely
20:14 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
20:14 Qiang i haven't spend chinese new year for at least 5 years.
20:14 Qiang europe will be too small for ya.
20:14 svnbot6 r7327 | autrijus++ | * disable Getopt::Long tests because there is no code yet.
20:15 autrijus Qiang: aye... so maybe also canada
20:15 dduncan nevermind what I said before ... issue seems to be elsewhere
20:15 Qiang if don't mind the winter here  :)
20:15 brentdax has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:16 Qiang but try vancouver anytime.
20:16 autrijus can't be worse than scandanivia.
20:16 eric256 autrijus did you win the lottery or something? or just realy good at saving and living on nothing?
20:16 autrijus eric256: the latter.
20:16 Qiang autrijus: that's true.
20:16 eric256 i'm assuming no wife and children? if it weren';t for them i'd be rich ;)
20:17 autrijus eric256: and I don't start saving until my bank account hits $0 (minus this month's living expense)
20:17 Qiang eric256, lol
20:17 autrijus eric256: aye... vasectomy has its benefits, you know
20:17 eric256 i look back at before marriage and i'm just amazed at how cheap one man can live. ;)
20:17 Juerd Does anyone use their @feather.perl6.nl e-mail address?
20:18 Juerd It was a much requested feature, but I don't see any evidence of anyone actually using it :)
20:18 autrijus Juerd: I do not
20:18 autrijus if you start accepting delivery to @no.perlcabal.org  or @perlcabal.org (both pointed to the same machine) maybe it would become popular ;)
20:19 autrijus (or not.)
20:19 Juerd autrijus: I noticed by the amount of spam in your inbox :)
20:19 autrijus lol.
20:19 Juerd Oh, I can make it accept delivery on those domains if you want
20:19 autrijus don't bother really :)
20:19 Juerd Okay
20:19 brentdax__ has joined #perl6
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20:19 Juerd Hi Brent
20:20 brentdax Hey.
20:20 Juerd I'm off
20:20 Juerd Should anyone wish to comment on feather's email system, please just do so
20:20 xinming_Beijing has quit IRC (Client Quit)
20:21 nothingmuch eep!
20:21 Qiang autrijus, your $work involve catalyst too ?
20:21 xinming_Beijing has joined #perl6
20:21 vladtz 7323 hangs in t/builtins/io/dir.t memory use is up to 400M and climbing...(Linux build)
20:21 autrijus Qiang: a bit, yes
20:21 Qiang er. xinming in beijing ?
20:21 autrijus vladtz: confirmed.
20:21 autrijus fixing
20:21 Qiang what's your view on it?  stable / good enough ?
20:22 autrijus Qiang: it's good enough, definitely.
20:22 autrijus I'd not call it 'stable'.
20:22 nothingmuch what nagative zero width subpattern assertions cannot be variadic in perl 5?
20:22 autrijus "actively maintained and developed".
20:22 autrijus nothingmuch: because perl5 is not PCRE.
20:22 nothingmuch no, not why
20:22 nothingmuch which
20:22 nothingmuch all of them
20:22 nothingmuch ?
20:22 autrijus all of them
20:22 nothingmuch =(
20:22 autrijus er wait
20:22 autrijus just behind
20:22 nothingmuch okay
20:23 autrijus ahead is fine
20:23 autrijus you can fake variadic behind using multiple behinds
20:23 nothingmuch no need
20:24 Qiang i see. we have few people from perlchina have interest to learn and to introduce catalyst to others.
20:28 autrijus Qiang: cool. I do wonder how soon will there be a catalyst book
20:29 autrijus it seems adequate during this autumn renaissance of perl books
20:30 Qiang chunzi (a member) done some catalyst work (wrote member.perlchina.org)  and it looks promising.
20:31 Qiang look at how RoR taken off, perl's framework for webapp need a boost too.
20:31 autrijus I wonder how RoR had taken off really.
20:31 autrijus it's mostly given the other languages a good shake of reality
20:31 autrijus and make MVC cool again.
20:32 Qiang well. least generated lots buzz. perl has been quite comparing to python/ruby  
20:32 autrijus right. buzz.
20:32 * autrijus ponders an everybody-blog-about-pugs campaign
20:32 * autrijus decides it's a bad idea instantly
20:33 * eric256 is confused by ovids email to the list. starts with a "roles shouldn't provide trust" and ends with "thats why i think roles shoudl be allowed to specify trust".......besides the fact that i have no idea how roles actualy help in his example
20:33 autrijus vladtz: fixed. committing...
20:34 Qiang heh. it should be done base on the real work.  it will attract people if it's good.
20:34 Qiang if it is good, then some PR doesn't hurt :)
20:34 autrijus right. appropriate PR for appropriate stages.
20:35 * autrijus mumbles something about Dylan and PR deficiency.
20:35 obra funny. I have friends who were big dylan snobs in the 90s
20:35 Qiang hhe. if i didn't read your journal, i would have no idea about dylan (tho i still do , :)
20:37 autrijus dylan is really pretty good. I shall spend more time playing with it.
20:37 svnbot6 r7328 | nothingmuch++ | better version of converter
20:43 svnbot6 r7329 | Darren_Duncan++ | some ChangeLog updates
20:46 dduncan eric256, I think I understand what ovid wants, that a role can declare with 'trusts' that only certain other classes are allowed to call its private methods, just as a class can do the same with 'trusts'
20:46 dduncan I think I want the same thing too
20:47 dduncan where Perl itself enforces these things, and the called method doesn't have to use 'caller' etc to test who called it
20:48 dduncan fyi, I was going to use a caller-based trick in the perl 5 versions of my classes to simulate the perl 5 private methods, ensuring no one but those classes I approve can call them
20:48 dduncan I mean, simulate perl 6 private methods
20:55 svnbot6 r7330 | autrijus++ | * gaal accidentally broke readdir by deleting one random line.
20:55 svnbot6 r7330 | autrijus++ |   vladtz caught it right away.
20:56 wolverian autrijus, I've heard dylan is "just a crippled lisp without s-expressions". then again, what language does that not match...
20:56 autrijus wolverian: forth does not match.
20:56 autrijus but indeed
20:56 nothingmuch laundry time
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21:01 nothingmuch bicycle time
21:05 * autrijus starts journaling
21:05 geoffb Blog up: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/7996
21:06 geoffb *whew*
21:06 autrijus woot!
21:06 geoffb Time for some backlogging, and then $work
21:06 autrijus I've been advertising for you all day
21:06 geoffb heh
21:06 geoffb I hope it meets expectations, then!
21:06 nothingmuch http://nothingmuch.woobling.org/p.t
21:06 nothingmuch intermediate parrot test stuff
21:06 rafl autrijus: Thank you!
21:06 nothingmuch if someone has debugging tips, that could help
21:07 nothingmuch i'm off anyway
21:10 autrijus geoffb: I feel... a bit embarrased I guess, but very grateful for the writeup.
21:10 autrijus it's excellent.
21:11 geoffb thanks
21:11 autrijus geoffb++
21:11 geoffb I had a choice to make you anonymous or not, I decided that people just plain like celebrities.  :-)
21:11 geoffb thanks for the kind words
21:11 leo__ geoffb++
21:11 autrijus geoffb: hence, the embarrasment
21:11 geoffb and again.  :-)
21:12 autrijus but I will celebrate your writeup in my euro oscon talks and shamelessly use them in the takahashi slides :)
21:12 geoffb heh
21:13 leo__ $ ./parrot -Ofun examples/pasm/fact.pasm
21:13 leo__ # works
21:13 autrijus excellent
21:15 autrijus even better, it's strictly equivalent to
21:15 autrijus $ ./parrot examples/pasm/fact.pasm
21:15 autrijus hence proving parrot has its sense of fun as builtin
21:15 autrijus (for some value of proving)
21:16 geoffb heh
21:18 eric256 geoffb nice article
21:18 geoffb thanks, eric256
21:20 leo__ autrijus: it's of course optimized fun
21:21 * joao wonders which is the best place to start blogging/journaling
21:21 geoffb use.perl.org.  :-)
21:21 autrijus joao: haskell sequence and use.perl are both easy to set up
21:22 SamB has joined #perl6
21:24 gaal rehi.
21:24 gaal oops :)
21:26 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
21:28 joao geoffb++ # great article :)
21:28 geoffb Thanks, joao
21:29 autrijus changes topic to: geoffb's column: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2333 | Pugs 6.2.10 coming soon | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
21:30 geoffb thanks, autrijus
21:30 autrijus np :)
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21:52 dduncan I've decided to start smoking ... since it looks so easy now
21:52 autrijus cool!
21:52 * autrijus praises low entry of barrier to smoke.pugscode.org
21:52 eric256 man...just say no...don't you watch the commercials? don't submit to peer presure!!
21:53 * autrijus further praises nothingmuch for bringing it over to smoke.parrotcode.org
21:53 eric256 oh...ummmm..hhmmmm....nevermind ;)
21:53 dduncan also, I like that new smoke.pugscode.org page
21:53 fglock__ the pugs Marlboro men
21:54 eric256 ummm...the colums on that page have no headings.....
21:55 dduncan yes, there is that problem
21:56 dduncan on another note, I think the only runtime problem with /ext/Locale-KeyedText is also the same as what is causing t/builtins/arrays_and_hashes/pairs.t to fail
21:57 dduncan once that test is made to work, my module probably will too
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21:59 autrijus eric256: they have tooltips
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22:10 eric256 not for me
22:10 eric256 odd
22:11 autrijus firefox here.
22:11 eric256 i would swear those werent there a minute ago. lol
22:11 eric256 firefox here too, but sometimes mine doesn't seem to like tool tips
22:11 autrijus lol
22:12 eric256 shouldn't all the know fails be marked in some way so that you know when something breaks *more* tests?
22:12 eric256 or is there some easy way to tell if a new build is failing more tests?
22:12 autrijus look at the numbers on the smoke page, mostly
22:13 autrijus we are down to 191 fails. thank eris
22:13 autrijus (but concretely, thank gaal)
22:13 gaal but it's a good point. it'd be great if the smokeserver stored the yaml data too and diffed it
22:13 autrijus it is.
22:13 gaal you're very welcome
22:13 gaal tomorrow (well, today) i'm giving a talk about pugs again
22:13 gaal for my local pm group
22:13 eric256 how do you access the diffs?
22:14 autrijus eric256: it's p5 hackery - util/smokeserv/smokeserv-server.pl
22:14 gaal eric256: you don't, currently :)
22:14 eric256 ahh
22:14 autrijus eric256: comparing two yaml records, using something like wikipedia's "diff between revs" ui
22:14 gaal though i recall someone used to take the output of `make test` and put it on a wiki
22:14 eric256 blasphemy, the smoke server isn't writtin in perl6!!! what outrage
22:14 autrijus you are welcome to port them!
22:15 eric256 did i say blasphemey? i mean ingenious. ;)
22:15 autrijus roflmaohlagh
22:15 gaal hahaha
22:15 eric256 (/me apologies now for any past and or future spelling errors )
22:15 dduncan I just discovered ...
22:15 dduncan as I'm attempting to get the smoke utility up and running ...
22:16 eric256 aplogizes....aplogize's...well you get the point
22:16 dduncan that it has a half dozen CPAN distro dependencies that I didn't have installed yet, and some are large
22:16 dduncan so porting all that is non-trivial
22:16 autrijus dduncan: oh?
22:16 gaal eric256: if you do try to diff tests.ymls, make sure you weed out 'time' :)
22:16 * eric256 finaly reached gaurds in haskel....watch out i'll be hacking on something soon
22:16 autrijus dduncan: I thought it's just LWP.
22:16 eric256 good point gaal
22:16 dduncan I refer to 'make smoke'
22:16 autrijus eric256: I look forward to it
22:17 autrijus dduncan: ah. right. YAML, Test::TAP::Model, etc
22:17 eric256 yea dduncan i looked into porting Test way back and realized the same thing...but can't you use perl5 modules in pugs...so theoritcaly you could port them over slowly
22:17 autrijus yes, but it is decidedly less fun that way
22:17 dduncan yes, you could
22:17 gaal Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix pulls in petal and stuff.
22:18 dduncan and Petal pulls in stuff
22:18 autrijus much more practical though.
22:18 eric256 its like 6 degrees of seperation from Test to every module on CPAN?? ;)
22:18 * autrijus wonders if "p" in "perl" stands for "playful".
22:18 gaal for `purrs`.
22:18 autrijus eric256: modulo the islands, perhaps
22:18 autrijus gaal++
22:19 autrijus "purrs eyes rolls laughs"
22:19 autrijus what a fine language.
22:19 eric256 hmm i wonder how hard it would be to map all the dependencies of cpan in some topographical way...could be interesting
22:19 autrijus eric256: Alias did something like that some time ago
22:19 gaal Module::ScanDeps!
22:20 autrijus er, that too.
22:20 dduncan I think I just installed all of these, for 'make smoke': Test-TAP-Model, Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix, URI, Petal, MKDoc-XML ... I already had YAML from before, so didn't have to pull that
22:20 eric256 wow... haskell gaurds are like multi methods on crack...this could get fun
22:20 gaal all you need is to install Meta and then run it on that... *duck*
22:20 dduncan about a half dozen dependencies, besides what Perl 5.8.7 bundles
22:20 autrijus gaal: we already Model the Meta
22:21 autrijus so we never meta model we didn't like.
22:22 gaal dduncan: oh well, at least vanilla build doesn't require all that. if you *do* want to yamlsmoke, it's really just one command, `cpan Test::TAP::HTMLMatrix'.
22:22 gaal We need more Acme:: modules!
22:22 dduncan sure ... but I didn't do that
22:22 autrijus gaal: it may be nice to adopt ExtUtils::AutoInstall for that I think
22:22 gaal [tense mangling] so... did!
22:23 autrijus saves some trouble for manual chasing
22:23 gaal hey, i know the guy who wrote that!
22:24 autrijus sounds like a sick fellow
22:24 autrijus not as sick as a certain person who wrote inc::Module::Install, though
22:25 gaal yeah, i just read the manpage and saw the "block" version of the module...
22:25 dduncan it says I should create a .smoker.yml ...
22:25 fglock__ has left "Fui embora"
22:25 gaal you don't have to, dduncan
22:25 autrijus I never did
22:25 dduncan what good is it then
22:25 gaal but if you do, your smokes on the server will have your name on them
22:26 dduncan does anyone else do that?
22:26 autrijus so you will get extra doses of fame and glory.
22:26 gaal i think i'll add a 'homepage' field there so that googlegreedy people get tempted
22:27 dduncan I'm only inclined to put my name on them if other people are ... not for privacy reasons, but so I don't look greedy
22:27 gaal dduncan, it can be useful if for example you're messly like i am, and occasionally submit a smoke with local code variations from the tree
22:27 gaal i do it, nothingmuch does it
22:27 dduncan good enough for me
22:28 gaal and i was joking about the homepage :)
22:28 eric256 i would run the smoke tests...but i'm betting someone on feather already does and that would be kinda pointless ;)
22:28 dduncan but you and nothingmuch doing it already is enough impetus for me to
22:28 gaal eric256, if you only build on feather then probably, yes
22:29 gaal dduncan: what platform are you on?
22:29 dduncan Mac OS X 10.3.9
22:29 gaal wait, no, feather doesn't autosmoke
22:29 dduncan I'm doing it on my own comp, not a server somewhere
22:29 gaal yeah, most of us are. nothingmuch is on some mac too, but i don't know what version.
22:30 gaal eric256: if you need a break from haskell there's one or two improvements in the build system - in fact making automatic smoke submission easier is one of them
22:31 eric256 i'm game
22:31 dduncan my situation is different than nothingmuch, since I install pugs in a non-standard location ... I never put it in /usr/local ...
22:31 dduncan likewise, I leave the systemperl alone and put my own in a non-standard location
22:32 gaal great! grep -r for PUGS_SMOKE_UPLOAD: run-smoke uses it to optionally do something after the smoke
22:32 gaal but it shouldn't do it that way, it should look for configuraion in config.yml
22:33 dduncan curiously enough, the build info given at the top of the posted smoke files doesn't say what versions of the OS etc are being used
22:33 gaal eric256++
22:33 dduncan for nothingmuch, it simply says darwin-thread-multi-2level
22:33 eric256 grepping now.
22:34 gaal that's $^O, i suppose?
22:34 gaal dduncan: if you know a portable way to fix that, please do!
22:34 gaal dduncan: also, i don't know if nothingmuch is installing at all (i for one never do)
22:34 dduncan I don't immediately know
22:34 eric256 hmmm grep -r is gone and ....still gone...got a better idea where i'll find it at?
22:35 gaal util/run-smoke.pl, but maybe a few loose scrips
22:35 gaal and probably hack.pod too :)
22:36 dduncan maybe he isn't ... I could have been confused by all the 'standard' paths listed, and absense of other paths, save 'blib6/lib'
22:36 gaal i should really sleep, but i'm not sleepy
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22:40 eric256 is there another util that is already reading the config file i can use as an example? or just hack something together for a start?
22:42 Qiang has quit IRC ("home")
22:42 gaal eric256: sure, Makefile.PL uses it
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22:43 eric256 duh. lol
22:43 gaal use PugsBuild::Config; PugsBuild::Config->lookup('ghc_heap_size');
22:43 dduncan do you know if nothingmuch runs smoke from a cron job or manually?
22:43 gaal cron i think; he updates all the time.
22:43 eric256 soo all i need is 'use PugsBuild::Config' ?
22:44 eric256 if so then yaml_harness.pl can be simplified too
22:44 dduncan it is perhaps redundant if I do the default one, since he does it automatically and we may have the same system ... however, he doesn't do any other backends
22:44 gaal eric256: that and add a defualt value for your filed
22:44 gaal field
22:44 eric256 what is the defualt for that feild?
22:45 * joao is going to sleep
22:45 gaal plus update the templates...
22:45 gaal sec, gotta see what my cat is up to
22:45 * joao waves
22:45 joao has quit IRC ("joao.quit")
22:47 * eric256 looks at PugsConfig.pm but it says not to modify it because it was created with util/generate_config ... which doesn't seem to exist
22:47 gaal not that one... sec
22:47 gaal you want lib/PugsBuild
22:48 gaal lookup raises an error on unknown values, possibly a wrong choice on my part (feel free to change if you think so) --
22:48 eric256 no such file here.../me starts to feel more like trouble than help
22:49 gaal -- so it has to knwo what values are recognized
22:49 gaal inc/PugsBuild/Config.pm
22:49 gaal my bad
22:49 eric256 yea just found it
22:49 gaal maybe i am sleepy a bit :)
22:50 eric256 okay so right below smoe_concurrent i'll add the default...and a resonable default?
22:50 gaal but maybe deprecate the old way instead of removing it completely? i don't know who actually uses it
22:50 gaal maybe just nm
22:50 gaal yes, exactly
22:51 eric256 what is a reasonable default though?
22:51 gaal not to upload, i think
22:51 gaal so ~
22:51 gaal which means undef in YAML
22:52 gaal well in the perl code say undef
22:53 gaal in the examlpe config.yml, util/config-template.yml, put a comment
22:53 gaal then run-smoke.pl can look up the smoke server url, and if not null, send a smoke there.
22:54 eric256 k i think...its just running
22:54 eric256 system("$ENV{PUGS_SMOKE_UPLOAD}" )
22:54 eric256 right now
22:55 gaal ah, also i have a bug :) lookup, the fool, is checking for defindedness instead of existence
22:56 gaal i should sleep
22:56 eric256 i have no idea what you are talking about. lol
22:56 gaal i'll fix that then.
22:57 eric256 if ( defined $ENV{PUGS_SMOKE_UPLOAD} ) {   # that the line you mean?
22:58 vences has joined #perl6
22:58 gaal nah, in the config.pm. committed.
22:59 svnbot6 r7331 | gaal++ | PugsBuild::Config should check for existence, not defindedness, of known
22:59 svnbot6 r7331 | gaal++ | lookup elements.
22:59 gaal heh, that's 1337 spelled backwards. rawk
22:59 eric256 uhmmm my feather account can't make for some reason
22:59 eric256 no ghc found....thats just odd.
23:00 eric256 i gotta run now...can i commit what i've done? no chance to test it yet
23:00 gaal maybe Juerd just apt-get dist-upgraded?
23:00 eric256 and if so how do i commit on svk? i'm used to svn
23:01 gaal since i'm going to bed now and noone's around (i think? hello?) maybe you shouldn't unless you're sure it doesn't break the build
23:01 clkao same. just recheckout
23:01 gaal then again if noone's around...
23:01 eric256 hehe i'll set on it..and to it proper in the morning instead of rushing now...
23:01 gaal hah, hello clkao, do you have a trigger on svk? :)
23:02 gaal anyway, i'm off for real now
23:02 eric256 i'll even sit on it
23:02 eric256 later
23:02 gaal good night!
23:02 clkao busy making 1.05
23:02 eric256 has left
23:02 gaal clkao++ # making
23:02 * gaal zzZZZ &
23:06 autrijus g'nite gaal
23:07 autrijus I need to sleep too.
23:07 autrijus journal up. see ya tomorrow :)
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