Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-08

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:50 dduncan ?eval my $foo = {1=>2,3=>4,5=>6};
00:50 evalbot_7422 {('1' => 2), ('3' => 4), ('5' => 6)}
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00:52 evalbot_7422 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
00:52 dduncan ?eval my $foo = {1=>2,3=>4,5=>6}; my $bar = hash(%{$foo});
00:52 evalbot_7422 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
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00:52 evalbot_7422 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
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00:56 evalbot_7422 \3
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03:10 dduncan I seem to have fixed Locale-KeyedText, but the process was painful ... its checked in now
03:10 svnbot6 r7423 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Locale-KeyedText : updated KeyedText.pm and t_LKT_Util.pm to remain compatible with recent Pugs changes
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03:28 nothingmuch oh god
03:28 nothingmuch you say "normal exception handling" and then everyone jumps at you
03:28 nothingmuch i'm so sick of that thread
03:28 nothingmuch why can't they just let it go?
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03:45 putter geoffb: 3617 (pilrun tests passed) of 7716 (piljs tests run) is < 50%.  6910 (pilrun tests run) vs 7716 is a bunch of test files utterly failing.
03:45 putter iblech: note geoffb's puzzlement.  pity poor users unfamiliar with pugs.  the %ages need to be normalized.
03:46 geoffb putter, ah, now I get it
03:46 putter :)
03:46 geoffb So some test files don't even manage to cough up a plan?
03:47 putter actually, a program that doesnt do anything passes... I don't really remember... perhaps 20% of the test suite?  all the negative tests.
03:47 geoffb sigh
03:47 geoffb It's like getting 400 on the SATs just for putting your name at the top.
03:48 geoffb .oO( I wonder if they still use that stupid scale . . . ? )
03:48 putter geoffb: yes.  there are non-terminations cpu intensive, non-termination cpu-less hangs, memory exhaustions, etc, etc.
03:48 geoffb bleah
03:48 geoffb fair enough
03:48 putter actually, the 100% pugs is a bit of a crock.  from an end user perspective.
03:49 putter for developers it's fine.  but for users, a skip is no better than a fail.  so pugs is at...
03:51 putter ~70%
03:51 geoffb gah
03:52 geoffb Yes, normalization is in order.
03:52 putter and that's of a test suite which tends to be driven by the implementation, rather than covering the spec.
03:52 geoffb But how to know what is correct number for total, given that some tests fail utterly on some backends?
03:53 geoffb nodnod, well, that much was well advertized
03:54 putter max tests (ie, pugs) is one option.  another is an arbitrary 10k (ie, normalized pugs).  another is 20k (closer to the total number of tests anticipated for p6 coverage)
03:54 geoffb How many does p5 have these days?
03:55 putter ?
03:55 geoffb How big is the perl (5) test suite?
03:55 sili_ ginoperous
03:56 putter 365 .t files...
03:56 * geoffb doubts that Perl 6's test suite can reasonably be smaller, even if perl 5 tests are overconservative
03:58 geoffb &
03:58 putter a very quick and superficial look suggests pugs and p5 may already
03:59 putter have a comparable number of tests.
03:59 putter g'night geoffb
03:59 geoffb you too
03:59 putter tnx
04:04 scook0 hmm
04:04 scook0 is there any reason the default typechecker needs to be *rejecting* programs?
04:04 scook0 (rather than just giving a warning)
04:04 putter sigh.  ./pugs official "pass" of a month ago was "96%".  Which _really_ meant a third of the things we tested for, did not in fact work.
04:05 putter the smoke's would be awash in red, if the colors were tuned for users rather than developers.
04:06 putter scook0: ?
04:06 Supaplex greetings fine gentlemen
04:06 scook0 re: p6l "Type annotations"
04:06 Supaplex oh, and buu. ;)
04:10 * putter is concerned folks are forgetting how very much doesn't work yet, and how little p6 code is actually being written (and with what difficulty).  which may lead to misleading and disappointing users.  burning credability perl6 already doesnt exactly have in abundance.
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04:11 Supaplex so how do we fix this putter?
04:15 putter Supaplex: change skipped and todo tests to shades of red?  ;)   stay clear ourselves on how much isnt working yet.  and undersell our capabilities to others.
04:16 Supaplex sounds reasonable.
04:16 Supaplex come to think of it, I had an awesome idea for p6 just int he last day or two ... meh :( I can't recall
04:18 Supaplex will p6 be a reasonable canidate for desktop applications?
04:18 SamB Supaplex: who can say?
04:18 SamB Supaplex: will it even work?
04:19 Supaplex good point
04:20 Khisanth will the specs ever get to a point resembling "complete"? :)
04:20 Khisanth or at least .. "fixed"
04:20 putter eg, for this release, -Bjs is best described as running a perl4ish dialect of p6, and is probably the most noteworthy accomplishment.  or if aut gets a linkable pugs and Inline::Pugs working.  -Bperl5 imho does not, from an end user perspective, deserve more than passing mention.
04:26 putter SamB: once some backend, or even a combination of backends, provides working rules, oo, and a compiler which doesn't choke too often, it should be surprisingly easy to do, for example, ruby to p6 transliteration.  those challenges are ones of implementation, not language definition.  and that capability provides a lower bound on what p6 will be able to do.
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04:29 Khisanth but how will running ruby give perl6 credability?
04:30 putter running anything will give p6 credibility
04:30 PerlJam Why does perl6 need credibility again?
04:30 PerlJam and credibility to whom?
04:31 Khisanth putter: that makes it sound like it's in a rather sad state of affairs ...
04:37 putter we've got a very very neat baby.  even todler.  lots of potential.  may even grow up to be president (even though that's not saying much these days;).  but we haven't really written any large p6 programs yet... and the occasional attempts have not gone smoothly.
04:40 dduncan I agree with changing skipped/todo to something more like red
04:40 dduncan but there are different reasons that should show up differently
04:41 dduncan in a fully working system, the only reason to have a skip is if that test is for an optional component that the user didn't choose to install
04:41 dduncan whereas, anything conceptually non-optional, particularly anything that isn't ok because Pugs isn't far enough along to implement it yet, should be reddish ... maybe orange or yellow
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04:43 dduncan for fails, I see at least 3 levels:
04:44 dduncan 1. the most red is if the test script dies before spitting out a count of tests; maybe also use this if the test script ties part way through as well
04:44 dduncan or those can be 2
04:44 dduncan 2. the script does not die, but reports an ordinary failure
04:44 dduncan 3. the script gives a todo, should Pugs not be ready to implement it, or the code is incomplete
04:45 dduncan those should all be shades of red
04:45 dduncan maybe maroon, mid red, and orange
04:45 dduncan yellow or light green can be skips due to an optional feature not being chosen by the user or their not installing an optional prereq
04:46 dduncan and dark green would be a normal successful tets
04:46 dduncan test
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04:50 dduncan Khisanth, why get politics involved in this?
04:50 PerlJam putter: Why do you think that pugs development is the bottleneck?
04:51 putter Khisanth: the other upbeat aspect is that I suspect we will have a supercritical cascade release at some point.  a depends on b depends on c depends on d which depends on autrjus.  at some point d gets kicked, and rumble thunder boom.
04:51 PerlJam putter: why do you think that autrijus is critical to perl6?
04:52 dduncan I would say he is very important to perl6
04:52 Khisanth PerlJam: he seems to hack most of the haskell parts?
04:52 dduncan providing a good kick in the level of progress
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04:53 dduncan t'werent for pugs, I doubt there would have been an environment to run perl 6 code in by now
04:53 scook0 an implementation is critical to P6, and pugs is the only (top-down) implementation
04:53 scook0 autrijus is critical to pugs
04:53 PerlJam dduncan: I agree.  
04:54 PerlJam I will also agree that autrijus has been an excellent person to rally around and has helped perl6 development greatly.
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04:54 scook0 and the 'real' implementation is unlikely to get written until pugs is complete enough to write it in
04:54 PerlJam but perl6 hardly has a truck-number of 1 (autrijus).  That's the vibe I'm getting.
04:56 putter PerlJam: pugs is the only existant parser and compiler.  their limitations and bugs define what it is currently possible to do.  it should be possible to do a non-hs compiler shortly after oo starts working.  but even a minimal compiler will I suspect be the largest p6 program ever written, and thus a stress test with associated difficulties.
04:56 PerlJam scook0: the real implementation will depend on perl6 rules.  AFAIK autrijus isn't working in that area.
04:56 Khisanth speaking of which, whatever happened to that anyway?
04:57 scook0 really?
04:57 PerlJam Khisanth: you mean PGE?
04:57 scook0 I thought the current plan was to get Pugs to a stage where perl6 can be written in Perl 6
04:57 dduncan last I checked, the perl6 rules were being implemented in Parrot
04:57 scook0 with Pugs as the bootstrap
04:57 dduncan it is
04:57 Khisanth PerlJam: yup
04:57 dduncan Pugs is the bootstrap of the main parg
04:58 dduncan and PGE/Parrot the bootstrap of the other part
04:58 PerlJam Khisanth: last I heard (several weeks ago), Larry and Damian keep changing certain semantics that make it quite difficult to implement something concrete
05:00 PerlJam But pmichaud has disappeared as far as I know.  I've not seen hide nor hair nor avatar in quite a while.  
05:00 PerlJam Maybe he's on vacation
05:01 putter pge/parrot is the furthest along p6 rules implementation.  some stuff of mine is the only other activity I know of.  pge is a one-man show.  and I'm unclear on whether it's being semi-actively developed, on hold slated for replacement by an alternate approach, or simply very quiet.
05:02 putter PerlJam: writing anything in assembly language (which is basically what pir is) requires a stable spec.  its not a good exploratory programming language.  which is one reason it's always seemed an iffy choice for the first draft rules engine.
05:05 PerlJam putter: What would you have done?
05:05 PerlJam (or what rules-related stuff have you done?  I haven't kept up)
05:06 scook0 anybody know how `foo.()`-style calls are supposed to interact with adverbs?
05:06 scook0 (syntax-wise)
05:07 scook0 can I say `foo :adverb .()`?
05:07 scook0 or `foo .() :adverb`?
05:07 PerlJam scook0: The former is highly doubtful :)
05:07 putter PerlJam: re criticality of autrijus, while other lambda camels have contributed, autrijus is the only person who as done large scale reengineering of pugs/hs.  and several acts of such reengineering will be needed as pugs matures.  and I see very little chance of p6 comming into existence any time soon without pugs.  which means if autrijus gets hit by a bus, I give up on p6.
05:09 scook0 hmm
05:10 PerlJam putter: That's a strange attitude.
05:11 scook0 I suspect that adverbs outside parens can only come _after_ the parens, if there are any
05:11 scook0 otherwise adverb-parens get confused with call-parens
05:16 putter PerlJam: it took under a calendar week to write a prolog engine, linkable to p5, which passes the p5 test suite modulo embedded code.  admittedly it's not a very thourough test suite.  when I get an extra day, I plan to address that last embedded code bit.  finishing up the p6 version will take another couple of days.  that will be under 100hrs dev time total, to get a fast working prototype thourougly correct.  and easily updated.  we
05:16 putter could have a p6 rules grammar for p6 now if that existed.  next step is deriving a p5 emiter/engine from the prolog one.  scheduling and success on that is more iffy, as performance is so important.  but I'm optimistic.  I give it about a 1/3 chance of being straightforward.
05:20 putter scook0: i dont know, but I'm not so doubtful about before paren adverbs.   after all, rx:foo(3)(bar) is fine.
05:20 putter i think.  fuzzily.  when I should be asleep.
05:20 putter good night folks &
05:20 PerlJam g
05:20 scook0 bye
05:20 PerlJam g'night putter
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06:02 dduncan seeing as there was no public smoke from the last day, I posted my first one
06:03 dduncan under darwin: Pugs 6.2.9  r7423 08 Oct 2005 06:00 Sat 96.67 min 99.28 % ok 10307: 10233, 74, 1220, 1512, 0 » »
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07:01 gaal dduncan: there's also a win32 one there. producing a new one here....
07:07 dduncan and hello to you too
07:08 dduncan fyi, Locale-KeyedText is all fixed, though it was painful to figure out the problem ... I ended up just recoding some bits in a different way to get them to work
07:08 dduncan eg, I found strange things happening with .pairs that were difficult to reproduce, so I recoded the bits with .keys and another hash lookup instead, the perl 5 way
07:09 dduncan in this case, difficult meaning that I was unable to reproduce them outside of my module
07:10 gaal hi :) yes, pairs are still in the doimain of Weird
07:10 dduncan most of my problems are related to pairs and/or hashes
07:11 dduncan eg, simply assigning one hash to another with $foo = $bar results in the new hash being a condensed version of the original, every key/pair was concated into a single string
07:11 dduncan if you see various smoke errors about odd numbers of elements in a hash, it is probably related to this
07:11 gaal yeah
07:11 dduncan one workaround I found was to say $foo = %{$bar}
07:12 dduncan another one was to use .keys instead of .pairs
07:12 dduncan separately, I found I had to wrap an array property in an @{} in order for a .map to work properly
07:13 dduncan related to that, I removed a bunch of hash(), which used to be necessary but now seem to cause problems instead of helping
07:13 dduncan also, I verified that Pugs still has the hash bug where keys auto-vivify when they are referenced
07:14 dduncan due to various issues, my current Locale-KeyedText has a bunch of cruft in it
07:15 dduncan suffice it to say that, following the CPAN release of 6.2.10, I'm going to delete that and just have the rewritten cruft-free Locale-KeyedText inside Rosetta-Incubator instead
07:15 dduncan and that should function once the new MetaModel and proper object support is integrated into Pugs
07:17 dduncan I figure that the change-over to the MetaModel, plus a Parser overhaul built on the new PIL, should cause a lot of things to just work in Pugs, both adding new features and removing most of the need for cruft
07:17 dduncan so release 6.28.0 should be sweet indeed
07:18 dduncan meanwhile, 6.2.10 will have the functional/fixed older version
07:24 * autrijus wakes up and backlogeth
07:24 autrijus putter++ putter++ putter++
07:24 autrijus # reality check
07:25 autrijus I was constantly worried about overadvertisement
07:25 autrijus and still am. but at the same time I can't help but be very excited/enthusiastic about progress.
07:25 autrijus so it requires a delicate balance ;)
07:26 gaal it also requires: (1) saying we're developing for development, for now
07:26 gaal (2) no busses;
07:27 gaal i think we do #1 enough... when i enthuse about pugs to people i try to convey this at least.
07:28 autrijus geoffb: I actually fixed the parrot_config bug, but a nap turned into unexpected sleep
07:28 autrijus so I'm committing it now. apologies
07:29 gaal is there a checklist for this release?
07:29 svnbot6 r7424 | autrijus++ | * link in parrot_config.o explicitly during parrot embedding;
07:29 svnbot6 r7424 | autrijus++ |   not until 0.3.1 will we have "include/" installed in parrot
07:29 svnbot6 r7424 | autrijus++ |   base, so currently we still need a build tree of parrot.
07:29 svnbot6 r7424 | autrijus++ |   C'est la vie.
07:29 autrijus gaal: it's the usual one. tests and changelogs
07:30 autrijus I think I'm done with cabal.
07:30 gaal k. i'll have an updated smoke up soon.
07:30 autrijus so, pick one and I'll do the other :D
07:30 gaal i'll do the tests. (but did anyone take a look at that weird one? what was it...)
07:30 gaal ext/libwww-perl/t/base/headers-util.t
07:31 autrijus dduncan: indeed. totally need to make cruftfree OO code viable after this.
07:31 autrijus I did not. sec
07:31 autrijus fixed.
07:32 gaal oh, we also need to make a decision about trans (the map/pair issue).
07:32 gaal autrijus++ # "sec" means sec
07:32 gaal your -> Pair $_ workaround in the Prelude carries things a little further, but there are still crashes.
07:33 autrijus I think, rewrite it without map+pair
07:33 gaal heh, okay
07:33 autrijus and push demagicalization through following the release.
07:33 autrijus (see my commit log.)
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07:34 svnbot6 r7425 | autrijus++ | * when you iterate an array of pair, always require type annotation.
07:34 svnbot6 r7425 | autrijus++ |   (I thought the base dynamic perl6 was a type annotation free language?
07:34 svnbot6 r7425 | autrijus++ |    whatever happened to that? ;-))
07:34 * gaal giggles
07:35 autrijus for the record, I don't consider junctive application "base".
07:37 * autrijus starts changelogging
07:37 autrijus bbiab
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07:39 gaal hmmm, we've got a namespace/exportation bug. consider t/pugsbugs/attribute_hash.t
07:39 gaal it crashes because "plan" is not found. but when "use Test" is pulled up to Main::, it doesn't find lives_ok
07:40 autrijus hm. and export is meant to be lexical.
07:40 gaal i'm pretty sure the .t code is correct as it is now; but exportation is apparently broken.
07:41 autrijus yeah.
07:41 autrijus lexical exports should fix the both counts.
07:41 gaal Should Bundle::Pugs::SmokeKit be mentioned in the ChangeLog to encourage people to submit smokes?
07:41 autrijus gaal: yes, definitely
07:42 autrijus I wouldn't object to even a Makefile.PL probe
07:42 autrijus actually, I'll code that up.
07:42 gaal whoa, sec. t/pugsbugs/attribute_hash.t didn't crash yesterday
07:42 gaal so we broke something very recently.
07:43 autrijus eh?
07:43 autrijus I'm remaking pugs. will test in a bit
07:43 gaal yup, see the smoke for r7403
07:44 autrijus gaal: can you add this cross-package export test (or, easier, the equiv export-is-lexical test -- "{ use Test }; ok()" should _not_ succeed) to t/packages/export.t?
07:44 gaal tricky! but yes, of course.
07:44 autrijus I'll look at what breaks attrhash.t.
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07:50 svnbot6 r7426 | gaal++ | tests for lexical exports
07:50 autrijus pugs built.
07:50 autrijus attrhash does _not_ crash for me.
07:51 gaal new smoke uploaded
07:51 gaal eep
07:51 autrijus eep is correct
07:51 * autrijus puzzleth
07:51 autrijus nopaste the crash when you run it alone?
07:52 pasteling "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "attribute_hash.t crasheth" (3 lines, 141B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13546
07:53 autrijus ghc 6.4.1, win32?
07:53 autrijus no local changes? :)
07:53 autrijus hm, apparently not win32.
07:53 gaal yes win32
07:54 autrijus mm.
07:54 gaal very *minor* local changes :)
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07:54 gaal cleaning and remaking.
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07:54 autrijus rebooting to win32.
07:56 gaal eep build hangs? on or just after
07:56 gaal configure: Dependency template-haskell-any: using template-haskell-1.0
07:56 gaal whatever, an interrupt and reinvocation worked.
07:56 autrijus you are using 6.4.1-release-msi right?
07:56 gaal oh wait! i know what we have different.
07:57 gaal i was precompiling Test
07:57 autrijus aha!
07:57 gaal you prolly weren't.
07:57 autrijus indeed.
07:57 gaal hmm
07:57 gaal suckage.
07:57 autrijus try again without precomp test?
07:57 autrijus I'll try again /with/.
07:57 gaal i *like* precomp Test :)
07:57 autrijus I know. :)
07:57 gaal ok, testing
07:58 gaal hmm, fiddling with config.yml triggered a rebuild of syck.
08:04 gaal yeah, it was the precompiled prelude.
08:04 autrijus nah, cabal always rebuilds syck.
08:04 autrijus and pcre, etc.
08:04 autrijus hadn't figured out how to stop it
08:04 autrijus but doesn't hurt too much
08:04 gaal well, that's fast at least.
08:05 autrijus so precomp test only fails on this single test?
08:05 autrijus (I'm still compiling)
08:05 gaal i think so, unless there are others with scoping issues. i'll look at the smoke (this is just one that i noticed fail as it was running)
08:06 gaal yes, looks like it.
08:07 gaal there are many skips though, which might be crashes before plan, etc.; looking into that now.
08:08 autrijus at this stage I'm probably going to just declare precomp Test noncanonical :)
08:08 autrijus since I suspect fixing export can make lots of those issues go away
08:08 gaal yeah, that makes perfect sense
08:08 gaal sure.
08:08 autrijus and aye, I duplicated the bug.
08:11 autrijus gaal: and the reason is that "is export" is not seen twice
08:11 autrijus gaal: I suspect what we really need is a link set semantics. but failing that, a default &import that is reusable.
08:11 autrijus but both are after 6.2.10
08:12 gaal not seen twice?
08:12 autrijus # XXX - FIXME - Here we qualify the Test:: methods, because
08:12 autrijus # when precompiling Test.pm with prelude (see config.yml),
08:12 autrijus # export works differently and cause the plan() to be hidden
08:12 autrijus # (as currently the export only happens at parsing time, and
08:12 autrijus # precompilation inhibits the reparsing)
08:12 svnbot6 r7427 | gaal++ | connect now fails on error
08:13 gaal hmmm. non-Test prelude builtins don't have this problem because... they're supposed to be global?
08:13 autrijus yes.
08:13 gaal is builtin/primitive
08:13 autrijus and we made sure we qualify everything in them
08:14 gaal i see
08:14 autrijus anyway, I did what is required as a workaround.
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08:17 * autrijus goes back to chglgng
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ | * add explicit Test::: qualifier to attribute_hash.t:
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ |     # XXX - FIXME - Here we qualify the Test:: methods, because
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ |     # when precompiling Test.pm with prelude (see config.yml),
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ |     # export works differently and cause the plan() to be hidden
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ |     # (as currently the export only happens at parsing time, and
08:17 svnbot6 r7428 | autrijus++ |     # precompilation inhibits the reparsing)
08:17 svnbot6 r7429 | gaal++ | add reason for skip
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08:23 svnbot6 r7430 | vkon++ | add readline to Pugs.cabal.in
08:23 svnbot6 r7431 | gaal++ | unskip tests; parrot no longer causes hangs here
08:23 svnbot6 r7432 | gaal++ | add reason for skip
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08:27 autrijus vkon: er no, why?
08:27 autrijus vkon: build_pugs.pl adds readline if needed
08:27 autrijus ...except it does not. oops. fixing
08:29 autrijus fixed.
08:29 svnbot6 r7433 | autrijus++ | * instead of adding readline to Pugs.cabal.in, fix
08:29 svnbot6 r7433 | autrijus++ |   build_pugs.pl so it probes correctly. vkon++!
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08:46 svnbot6 r7434 | gaal++ | detect missing smoke stuffs and encourage the user to install them
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08:48 vkon autrijus: newer GHC more restrictive, and people reported build problem. Its good you fixed it better than I did :) and sorry for delayed answer (PC wasn't prepared)
08:49 autrijus no prob
08:49 autrijus vkon++
08:49 scook0 autrijus: I'm looking at `parseNoParenParamList` in Parser.hs, and it's turning my brain inside-out
08:49 scook0 how the heck does it work?
08:49 autrijus very carefully.
08:50 autrijus which part are attacking your brain?
08:50 autrijus the first formal<- is merely a sepEndBy
08:50 autrijus with the restriction that the first part (the ones before :) cannot suffer a dot after a block.
08:51 scook0 what's meant by "a block"?
08:51 autrijus foo {}.blah
08:52 autrijus the {}.blah is a unit
08:52 scook0 oh, that kind of block
08:52 autrijus foo:{}.blah
08:52 autrijus the {} belongs to foo as it can now suffer it.
08:52 autrijus (please add comments to that effect)
08:52 scook0 I shall try
08:53 scook0 btw, what exactly is it supposed to be parsing?
08:53 scook0 a listop-style arglist?
08:54 scook0 (I'm trying to figure out what all the various `parseParamList` parsers are responsible for)
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08:59 autrijus scook0: yeah
08:59 autrijus it's a listop style arglist without parens
08:59 autrijus either with parens already accounted for
08:59 autrijus or the parenless form
09:04 scook0 it seems to be getting called from some weird places though
09:04 autrijus hmmm?
09:05 scook0 like after parsing `foo .(`
09:05 scook0 shouldn't that be equivalent to `foo(`?
09:08 autrijus yes?
09:08 autrijus so both calls the same parseNoParenParamList (I think)
09:08 scook0 I guess my real question is:
09:09 scook0 what's the fundamental difference between HasParen and NoParen?
09:09 gaal scook0: how do you tell where it's called from? you mean just grepping the code for references or is there some funky caller()-like debugging trick in haskell i shouldn't know of? :)
09:09 scook0 (both in terms of what they do, and who calls them)
09:09 scook0 gaal: I just use grep
09:10 autrijus scook0: HasParen is always surrouded with verbatimParens
09:10 gaal ah, okay :)
09:10 autrijus so much so that I think we should factor verbatimParens into it
09:10 autrijus and inside parens we can suffer everything
09:10 autrijus foo({})
09:10 autrijus is just fine
09:11 autrijus foo({}.bar) too
09:11 autrijus so we don't need special directive to support adverbial blocks
09:11 autrijus foo:{}.blah
09:12 autrijus I think the ruleBlockLiteral is the only difference
09:12 autrijus would be nice to merge them into one
09:12 scook0 so really the only difference is that NoParens has to be careful not to swallow `{}.blah`?
09:14 scook0 autrijus: merging is one of the reasons I'm looking into them in the first place
09:15 autrijus nodnod.
09:16 scook0 what's with (`sepEndBy` symbol ":") anyway?
09:16 scook0 what sort of colon is that supposed to be--invocant?
09:17 autrijus yeah
09:17 autrijus see processFormals
09:18 scook0 and processFormals should never get a list of length > 2
09:18 autrijus    _                   -> fail "Only one invocant allowed"
09:18 scook0 yep
09:21 scook0 autrijus: where do the actual argument expressions get parsed?
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09:22 autrijus argBlockish
09:22 autrijus and as part of it, argVanilla
09:23 scook0 parseTightOp?
09:23 autrijus yeah parseTightOp
09:23 autrijus oh right, parenless is only tight
09:23 scook0 what is parseTightOp? (and parseLitOp etc.)
09:23 autrijus and parenful can suffer lit
09:23 autrijus see litOperators
09:23 autrijus lit = tight+loose
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09:24 autrijus i.e. all operators minus the list-associative , Y
09:24 scook0 any reason it's called 'lit'?
09:26 scook0 I didn't realise parseLitOp/parseTightOp were parsing terms, btw
09:29 autrijus please fix them
09:29 autrijus ruleLitTerms
09:29 autrijus "lit" as in "literal"
09:29 autrijus as in non-list
09:29 autrijus but this is too vague
09:29 autrijus maybe "Item".
09:32 scook0 I'm still not clear on what parse*Op actually do
09:33 autrijus look at parseOpWith
09:33 autrijus there is a buildExpressionParser hidden in it
09:34 autrijus it takes operator table
09:34 autrijus returns something that can parse terms joined together with those operators
09:34 autrijus the basic term is parseTerm.
09:34 scook0 buildExpressionParser is part of Parsec, right?
09:34 autrijus yes. it's the reason why pugs exists.
09:35 autrijus (and partly the reason why you can't parse 1+1 yet with PGE.)
09:36 autrijus it's in Pugs.Rule.Expr
09:36 autrijus I have tweaked it liberally from basic parsec
09:36 scook0 and the three different variants (parse, parseTight, parseLit) exclude 'tightnesses' of operator
09:36 autrijus notably with optional prefix and list associations
09:36 autrijus scook0: yes.
09:37 scook0 but essentially you give it a parser for atomic terms and a bunch of operators, and it gives you a parser for arbitrary expressions
09:37 autrijus yes.
09:37 scook0 hokay
09:37 autrijus tho the alleged "atomic" term is also partly built with buildExpressionParser
09:38 autrijus it's a self recursive, potentially infinite parser structure.
09:38 autrijus (which is why there is no parsec for Scheme... without laziness this can't be expressed easily)
09:39 scook0 how about something like 'parseTermWithTightOps' as a name?
09:39 autrijus sure!
09:39 autrijus fix ahead
09:39 scook0 (\_ -> laziness++)
09:42 scook0 and how about s/parseOpWith/parseTermWithCachedParser/?
09:42 autrijus works for me.
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09:52 svnbot6 r7435 | gaal++ | revert 7431: this test *does* hang here.
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10:26 gaal chromatic, ping
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10:27 autrijus lunch, bbiab
10:27 gaal the 'use_ok's in 010_Test_Builder.t confuse the harness somewhat, because they emit a duplicate test header.
10:28 autrijus hrmph.
10:28 svnbot6 r7436 | scook0++ | Parser.hs changes:
10:28 svnbot6 r7436 | scook0++ | * Rename parseOp & friends to parseExpWithOps
10:28 svnbot6 r7436 | scook0++ | * Factor out ruleInvocationCommon & parseParenParamListCommon
10:28 svnbot6 r7436 | scook0++ | * parseHasParenParamList now parses its own parens
10:28 svnbot6 r7436 | scook0++ | * Move maybeParensBool closer to its (only) caller
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10:29 autrijus woot, scook0++
10:30 scook0 thanks
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10:56 rafl Good morning.
10:57 rafl Building pugs still doesn't work for me. I get linker errors: http://nopaste.debianforum.de/1293
10:57 rafl -package plugins fixes some of the errors.
10:58 rafl Some others still remain.
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10:58 rafl That's the output if I add -package plugins: http://nopaste.debianforum.de/1294
10:59 rafl Any ideas?
10:59 rafl autrijus: Maybe that's related to vkon's and your changes to the build system yesterday.
11:02 rafl Ah, -package haskell-src makes the linking work.
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11:10 svnbot6 r7437 | rafl++ | * Fix linking errors when compiling with hs-plugins support.
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11:11 rafl OK, now it builds fine again. I'll now adjust Makefile.PL to build perl5/ properly and src_to_blib.pl to install the right parts of perl5/*/blib* into blib6/ to install it into a sane location.
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11:48 jp-autark Hm, I only get errors like 'Can't exec "./Setup": No such file or directory at util/build_pugs.pl line 83.' when trying to make a fresh checkout of pugs.
11:50 scook0 jp-autark: what command(s) did you use to build it?
11:51 scook0 does the file 'Setup' actually exist?
11:51 jp-autark scook0: first, perl Makefile.PL and then make
11:52 rafl OK, perl5/ is being built and cleaned correctly now. Now only the installation stuff is missing.
11:52 rafl jp-autark: I suspect there was an error during perl Makefile.PL.
11:52 jp-autark the Setup file does not seem to exist.
11:53 rafl jp-autark: ghc -package Cabal Setup.lhs -o Setup creates it.
11:56 scook0 it really should be getting generated by Makefile.PL though
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11:57 jp-autark rafl: it seems I don't have the Cabal package. 'ghc-6.4.1: unknown package:Cabal'
12:00 scook0 AFAIK, Cabal is part of the GHC distribution
12:00 scook0 so maybe there's something wrong with your GHC install
12:01 jp-autark seems so.
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12:01 scook0 what OS/package are you using?
12:02 jp-autark gentoo
12:05 scook0 jp-autark: can you load other packages?
12:05 scook0 e.g. $ ghci -package QuickCheck
12:06 jp-autark yes, that worked.
12:06 scook0 and $ ghci -package Cabal # fails?
12:06 jp-autark yes, unknown package:Cabal
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12:15 scook0 jp-autark: try $ ghc-pkg list # and see if Cabal shows up there
12:16 rafl jp-autark: Gentoo and other distributions seperate Cabal and other packages from the ghc distribution.
12:16 jp-autark scook0: it does indeed not appear in that list.
12:16 rafl I don't know how's the ghc cabal package called in gentoo, though.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ | util/PugsConfig.pm:
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Added new 'pugslibdir' variable.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ | util/src_to_blib.pl:
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Make it non-fatal if a directory doesn't exist.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Copy over perl5/*/blib{,6,js} to blib6/pugs/.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ | Makefile.PL:
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Build and clean perl5/ correctly.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Use ./Setup copy --copy-prefix instead of ./Setup install.
12:16 svnbot6 r7438 | rafl++ |  * Install built blib6/pugs into $(PEFIX)/share/pugs.
12:17 rafl Finally!
12:17 scook0 looks like it's 'dev-haskell/cabal'
12:18 jp-autark indeed. Thanks, I will emerge it at once :)
12:18 rafl Sounds good.
12:18 rafl Does the perl5 embedding work again with the cabalized pugs?
12:18 rafl Doesn't seem so: *** Wasn't able to find 'Perl5_stub.o', aborting...
12:21 jp-autark Thank you, it's now compiling pugs again.
12:22 scook0 autrijus: it seems that a lot of the complexity in HasParens/NoParens comes from trying to parse arbitrary numbers of invocants
12:23 scook0 which I dont' think makes sense anymore, since there's now only one level of 'invocant-ness', and it can only have one invocant
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12:58 autrijus scook0: yes, indeed
12:59 autrijus so if you'd like to decomplex it by reducing the invocness, you have my blessing
13:04 autrijus rafl: wierd.
13:04 autrijus rafl: build_pugs line 123 should take care of that. trace a bit?
13:07 clkao will js backend pass all test for this release?
13:08 autrijus cf. smoke.pugscode.org
13:08 autrijus still some miles to go
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13:09 autrijus bbiab &
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13:12 autrijus rafl: btw, you are using Cabal-1.0 right?
13:12 autrijus I'll retest Cabal-1.1.3 when I get back
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13:14 dotato20cm viva perl6!
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13:15 pdcawley Does anyone know of anyone who might want to sponsor the Perl 6 Summaries? perl.com has had a resource squeeze and one of the things that didn't survive was the summary.
13:16 joao has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
13:16 svnbot6 r7439 | scook0++ | More Parser.hs changes:
13:16 svnbot6 r7439 | scook0++ | * Make parseHasParenParamList much simpler
13:16 svnbot6 r7439 | scook0++ | (this might cause very subtle changes in arglist parsing)
13:16 svnbot6 r7439 | scook0++ | * More code now uses parseHasParenParamList
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13:17 scook0 pdcawley: :(
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13:18 pdcawley Yeah. Up until they stopped, that and savings was my only income.
13:18 pdcawley The fact that I've got about two years of uninvoiced back issues to get through is something of a buffer, but still, far from ideal.
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13:21 joao pdcawley, what sort of values are we talking about?
13:21 michael hello camels
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13:24 scook0 'night all
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13:28 pdcawley They were paying me $250/summary
13:30 pdcawley I can't very well apply to TPF for funding 'cos I'm on the grants committee that'd decide if I got it.
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13:40 rafl autrijus: Care of what?
13:40 rafl autrijus: Cabal-1.0, yes.
13:41 rafl autrijus: Oh, you mean the perl5 embed build error? That one was fixed by cleaning the source tree first.
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |  r16858@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-08 15:06:18 +0200
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |  Debian:
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |   * New package 'libghc6-pugs-dev' for the haskell interface to pugs.
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |   * Added debian/libghc6-pugs-dev.install accordingly.
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |   * Added usr/share/pugs/* to pugs-modules.install
13:41 svnbot6 r7440 | rafl++ |   * New install-stamp rule in debian/rules to get rid of the double-dh_install.
13:41 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |  r16859@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-08 15:39:54 +0200
13:41 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |  Debian:
13:41 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |   * New changelog entry for 6.2.10.
13:41 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |   * Install stuff for libghc6-pugs-dev into /usr/share/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib.
13:42 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |   * Install .installed-pkg-config in Debian rules.
13:42 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |   * Added prerm and postinst script for libghc6-pugs-dev to register the ghc
13:42 svnbot6 r7441 | rafl++ |     package with ghc-pkg.
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13:43 rafl autrijus: pugs doesn't use that pugs library yet, does it?
13:44 rafl autrijus: Seen my recent changes to the build-system? I install perl5 into /usr/share/pugs/{perl5,perl6,js} now. I'm not sure if pugs finds it there if it's installed. I guess not.
13:45 rafl autrijus: Would be nice if you could take a look because I don't know much about what perl5/ does at runtime.
13:47 rafl The debian/ dir is now kind of suitable for the release imho. Given that noone changes the build-system again. :-)
13:51 wolverian rafl++ # awesome!
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14:49 xinming_Beijing isn't pugs still unable to be built?
14:50 xinming_Beijing oops. I mean can't be built.
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14:57 rafl xinming_Beijing: Works fine for me ATM.
14:59 xinming_Beijing But It doesn't compile here. hmm, I use Debian, And installed 6.2 version of ghc. And I compiled 6.4 myself... And use $GHC environment variable. But now, It seems it uses the old(6.2) version of ghc...
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15:00 rafl Well, sid and etch have ghc6.4.
15:00 iblech rafl: Fixing src/Pugs.hs to find {jspugs.pl,runjs.pl,pugs-p5.pl} again currently
15:00 xinming_Beijing ghc-6.2.2: unknown package name: mtl
15:00 rafl iblech++; #Yay!
15:00 xinming_Beijing That's the error message.
15:00 autrijus xinming_Beijing: ghc 6.2 can't build pugs for quite a while now
15:00 eric256_ what syntax does pugs use for including perl5 modules? use Blah-perl5; ?
15:01 iblech eric256_: use perl5:Blah
15:01 autrijus xinming_Beijing: I wonder why... have you left old ghc in path?
15:01 xinming_Beijing autrijus: yes, I know, So I compiled ghc 6.4 myself.
15:01 rafl eric256_: use perl5:Foo::Bar
15:01 eric256_ ahh i thought it had switched at some point
15:01 xinming_Beijing and export the $GHC environment variable
15:01 autrijus eric256_: yes it had, back in toronto
15:01 autrijus xinming_Beijing: oh hm, so maybe it's not picking it up
15:02 autrijus rafl: /usr/share/pugs is your invention right?
15:02 xinming_Beijing autrijus: yes, so, I wonder if the modification do delete the usage of $GHC.
15:02 autrijus rafl: I made it so it installs into /usr/local/lib/perl6/site_perl/perl5 here
15:02 autrijus rafl: i.e. same as sitelib but s/perl5/perl6/ and append "perl5"
15:02 autrijus rafl: what's wrong with this arrangement?
15:02 rafl autrijus: Well, FSH invented it.
15:02 eric256_ thanks
15:03 rafl autrijus: Think of "use perl5::Perl6::MetaModel"
15:03 rafl autrijus: That's not what you normally want.
15:03 rafl autrijus: The perl5 stuff seems only to be used internally and isn't needed for people who want to code perl6.
15:04 rafl autrijus: And it's arch-independent. Therefor it should be in /usr/share/pugs, IHMO.
15:04 autrijus if so then we'd move the rest of /usr/local/lib/perl6 into /usr/share/pugs
15:04 autrijus the perl5 stuff is used internally, for sure
15:05 autrijus I can see CORE/perl5/
15:05 autrijus there are certain directories, like CORE and auto
15:05 autrijus that in perl5 was also marked for internal use only.
15:05 autrijus CORE is fine by me.
15:05 autrijus but I'd still want it to be in sitelib
15:05 rafl Why?
15:06 autrijus hm, I'm not making sense.
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15:06 rafl /usr/{lib,share}/perl6 isn't specific to parrot. I think everything should remain where it is.
15:06 rafl s/parrot/pugs/ of course. :-)
15:07 autrijus ok. my rationale is as such
15:07 autrijus in the next release I'd like the existing perl5 to be true CPAN modules
15:07 autrijus so they can be used outside pugs
15:08 autrijus so seeing in this view, maybe they should be installed into the perl5 -- not perl6 -- sitelib.
15:08 rafl Fine. Then they don't need to be installed by pugs and we don't need to care where to install them.
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15:08 autrijus yes.
15:08 autrijus so what we are doing now is interim
15:08 autrijus I can see two places
15:08 autrijus one is in perl5 sitelib under the pugs/ namespace
15:09 autrijus site_lib/pugs/perl5/PIL-Run
15:09 rafl Do you really want to install JavaScript into perl5 sitelib?
15:09 autrijus another is somewhere in perl6 lib.
15:09 autrijus why, yes, why not.
15:09 autrijus they are js data used by a p5 module.
15:09 autrijus CGI::Ajax.
15:09 rafl Sounds reasonable.
15:09 autrijus and we already claim pugs.pm namespace
15:10 rafl I'd prefer /usr/share/perl5/Pugs/ then.
15:10 autrijus lowercase.
15:10 rafl Thought those names were reserved for pragmas.
15:10 autrijus pugs.pm is a pragma that enables lexically-scoped perl6 code.
15:11 rafl pugs.pm is, pugs::Perl6::MetaModel not.
15:11 autrijus what if I put it into auto/pugs/?
15:11 autrijus it's the customary data dir for cpan modules.
15:11 rafl Good idea!
15:11 autrijus okay. sitelib/auto/pugs/perl5/*
15:11 autrijus it is.
15:12 autrijus in p5 sitelib.
15:12 rafl Yes.
15:12 autrijus thanks for the brainstorming :)
15:12 autrijus please modify your changes
15:12 rafl You only need to change the pugslibdir in util/PugsConfig.pm for that.
15:12 autrijus I'll fix the hs side to locate them.
15:12 autrijus cool
15:13 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, by the way, Could you please tell me where to find the information about Makefile.PL
15:13 rafl Could you please change the path? I'll be offline in some seconds.
15:13 autrijus rafl: sure!
15:13 xinming_Beijing How do I create my own please?
15:13 rafl Thanks and good bye.
15:13 autrijus rafl++
15:13 autrijus xinming_Beijing: hm? for your own module?
15:13 rafl xinming_Beijing: perldoc ExtUtils::MakeMaker
15:13 autrijus perldoc perlmodlib
15:14 rafl xinming_Beijing: perldoc Module::Build Module::Install, etc.
15:14 autrijus xinming_Beijing: anyway, the GHC probe is on inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm
15:14 autrijus line 151
15:14 autrijus can you trace and make sure it found the right ghc?
15:14 autrijus I can test it when I'm back from sauna
15:14 autrijus which is to say ~40min from now
15:14 xinming_Beijing autrijus: Ok, I will try anyway
15:15 autrijus xinming++
15:18 rafl autrijus: Oh, please think about that the files are in different locations if installed with different INSTALLDIRS arguments.
15:19 rafl It's in /usr/local/share/perl5/ for INSTALLDIRS=site and /usr/share/perl5 for INSTALLDIRS=vendor
15:19 rafl autrijus: Maybe the haskell code should look at the whole perl5 @INC.
15:24 meppl is it possible to lock variables for shared variables?
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15:38 xinming_Beijing the module can detect the right ghc, But the problem is, It seems that Makefile doesn't use that correctly, Just use the variable from .setup-config
15:38 xinming_Beijing hmm, the config from .setup-config
15:39 geoffb <rez>
15:39 geoffb Autrijus, I noticed you pinged, but I haven't backlogged yet.  Should I test a dual-embed?
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15:44 * geoffb assumes no comment is good comment, and starts a fresh build
15:44 nothingmuch morning
15:45 geoffb morning, nm
15:45 * geoffb is in and out, dealing with morning kiddo routine
15:45 * nothingmuch is planning the intricate details of a trip to the stapler
15:46 nothingmuch turns out this paper I stabled only several days ago is falling apart (!!!)D
15:46 nothingmuch tr/b/p/
15:59 meppl oh
15:59 meppl never mind
15:59 eric256_ perlbot nopaste
15:59 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
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15:59 nothingmuch eric256_: use pbotutil
15:59 pasteling "eric256" at 24.8.74.230 pasted "Optimized Build error on win32" (12 lines, 560B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13550
16:00 nothingmuch it makes life easy
16:00 eric256_ thanks
16:02 eric256_ any ideas on the error?
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16:02 * nothingmuch doesn't know about windows stuff
16:03 nothingmuch i see some sh code in there, which sounds odd for windows
16:03 * eric256_ doesn't either ;)
16:03 nothingmuch dir was unexpected at this time.
16:03 nothingmuch that looks like 'for dir in ...'
16:04 nothingmuch which probably doesn't make sense for nmake, or cmd.exe or whoever is running the subcommands
16:04 eric256_ yea
16:04 eric256_ hmmm maybe someone changed pl2bat?
16:05 * nothingmuch doesn't know what that is
16:08 eric256_ this doesn't make any sense
16:08 eric256_ the only pl2bat.bat i could find was in my perl5 bin directory
16:09 eric256_ and neither it nor the script referencec (pugscc) have that line of code in them
16:09 xinming_Beijing eric256_: hmm, IMHO, it's impossible to convert the real program into bat...
16:10 eric256_ it doesn't and i'm not trying to.  thats what nmake does while building pugs
16:10 nothingmuch eric256_: svk log -x Makefile.PL
16:10 nothingmuch maybe someone made a unix-centric change
16:10 eric256_ pl2bat.bat just wraps a perl script in the batch file
16:11 eric256_ hmmm looks like maybe they did...wife is dragging me out of the house...i'll check on it later
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16:33 autrijus xinming_Beijing: a 'clean' should clean out both
16:33 autrijus but I know -- did you first run Makefile.PL once without setting env GHC?
16:33 autrijus if so the ./Setup will inherit the 6.2.2 config.
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16:40 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, I've done make clean before do perl Makefile.PL
16:40 xinming_Beijing But the problem still exists. So, this time, I am trying to get the "fresh" one... hope it works. the Internet connection here is poor, So, still downloading...
16:43 xinming_Beijing hmm, and also
16:43 xinming_Beijing export GHC=${HOME}/local/ghc/local/bin/ghc
16:43 xinming_Beijing this line is in my .bashrc
16:44 autrijus hmmm.
16:50 pasteling "geoffb" at 69.110.115.185 pasted "Dual-embed/optimized failure with 7441" (260 lines, 29.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13553
16:50 * geoffb bak for a while
16:50 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, In fact, here is a small trick I found. Everytime, we have to do `svn update && make && make install` for pugs.
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16:51 xinming_Beijing I just do a symbolic link to the pugs binary in /usr/bin/
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16:54 xinming_Beijing and we just do `svn update && make` for now... And don't need to copy the files into destination dir... :-) well, In fact, Just it's my habit... :-S
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16:57 autrijus geoffb: hm, I suspect scook broke the parser somehow.
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ | * Perl6::Pugs: Added link to GMane's archive of perl.perl6.compiler.
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ | * util/gen_prelude.pl: Remove the tmp-Prelude.pm when it is no longer required.
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: jspugs.pl, runjs.pl, PIL2JS.pm: Support for running from "make
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ |   install"'s locations (previously, extra code was not necessary, as the
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ |   installed path structure was the same as the sourcedir path structure).
16:57 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ |   Note: -BJS still can't find jspugs.pl and runjs.
16:58 svnbot6 r7442 | iblech++ |   Note: PIL-Run still doesn't work with the new hierarchy.
16:58 geoffb autrijus, bleah.  Have not finished backlogging.  Was that during today, or earlier this week, but I just didn't notice because of yesterday's failed builds?
16:59 evalbot_7441 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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16:59 autrijus during today
16:59 autrijus let me see
17:02 autrijus I get the error.
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17:03 svnbot6 r7443 | autrijus++ | * remove unportable chunks from perl5 buliding to make win32 happy.
17:03 autrijus reverting.
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17:05 geoffb OK, building from 7443
17:06 autrijus yeah, it was r7439.
17:06 autrijus er no
17:06 autrijus (this might cause very subtle changes in arglist parsing)
17:06 autrijus scook: it did and I had to revert it
17:07 autrijus nothing personal
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17:07 autrijus geoffb: you want 7444
17:07 geoffb OK, halting and pulling
17:08 nothingmuch wht a screwed up weekend
17:08 svnbot6 r7444 | autrijus++ | * revert r7439 as it breaks prelude parsing.  Sorry.
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17:11 geoffb nothingmuch, are you referring to the build pain?
17:11 nothingmuch no, to my own life
17:11 nothingmuch i got absolutely nowhere
17:11 evalbot_7443 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:11 nothingmuch had concentration trouble all the way through
17:11 evalbot_7444 has joined #perl6
17:11 nothingmuch the only productive time I had i wasted on rules.t
17:12 geoffb ah
17:12 geoffb bleah
17:13 nothingmuch btw, autrijus what do you think of my email?
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17:14 autrijus nothingmuch: what email?
17:14 dolmen has joined #perl6
17:14 autrijus type anno?
17:14 nothingmuch no
17:14 nothingmuch the one about rules.t to p6c
17:17 autrijus can you elaborate the linearlized $1$2$3 more?
17:17 autrijus example?
17:18 nothingmuch well, $1 can be either $/[1] or $/[0][0]
17:18 nothingmuch you can't know which is the right one to be checking without parsing the regex
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17:18 autrijus point.
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17:19 autrijus I think your reasoning is sound.
17:20 autrijus maybe indeed converting t/rules/from_perl6_rules/ is more fruitful.
17:21 autrijus but I still think it's valid to make perl6.t available
17:21 nothingmuch what are those?
17:21 autrijus especially the :todo ones
17:21 autrijus those are from damian's tests for Perl6::Rules
17:21 nothingmuch ah
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17:21 nothingmuch oh my, lots of side effect stuff
17:21 geoffb Hot damn!  It built!
17:21 autrijus geoffb: woot!
17:22 autrijus we reached the gholy rail!
17:22 geoffb Seeing rafl and autrijus have made install changes, I'll clean up and do a make install
17:22 geoffb heh
17:26 svnbot6 r7445 | autrijus++ | * fix pugslibdir path.  now going to look for them correctly...
17:27 geoffb Version: 6.2.9 (r7444)
17:27 geoffb Hmmm, from install, I'd say we've got a wierdness now: some stuff in /usr/share/ and some stuff in /usr/local/share.
17:28 geoffb IMHO a manual build should default to /usr/local/share, and debian can override with /usr/share
17:28 geoffb But in either case, consistent
17:30 autrijus what are in /usr/share?
17:30 autrijus I thought I squashed those
17:31 autrijus two rev ago
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17:31 geoffb /usr/share/pugs/... looks like the PIL2JS and PIL-Run and MM stuff
17:31 evalbot_7445 has joined #perl6
17:31 geoffb ext/ went into /usr/local/share
17:32 autrijus geoffb: that I fixed
17:32 autrijus if you rerun Makefile.PL that should not happen
17:32 geoffb I did, and do, every time.
17:32 geoffb I can do again from scratch here . . . .
17:32 autrijus nod...
17:33 autrijus yeah, I think I fixed that in 7445.
17:33 geoffb Ah, I had 7444.
17:33 geoffb pulled 7445, rebuilding
17:33 geoffb and away we go . . .
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17:40 gaal meow
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17:44 nothingmuch autrijus: for Perl6::Rules I have a better idea:
17:45 nothingmuch just rewrite Perl6::Rules with a PGE backend
17:45 nothingmuch it'll make it both useful for perl 5
17:45 nothingmuch and easily testable
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17:47 nothingmuch i think we could also simplify it with the constant overloading trick that e.g. NamedCapture uses
17:47 * nothingmuch goes to ride bike and contemplate dinner
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18:47 geoffb OK, so now all .hi files are in /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.7/Pugs-6.2.10/, all ext/ in /usr/local/share/perl6/, and the backends in /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.7/auto/pugs/
18:48 geoffb autrijus, rafl: is that what you intended?
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18:48 autrijus geoffb: yes.
18:48 autrijus excellent
18:49 geoffb alright, great!
18:49 autrijus I hope it's somewhat acceptable to you.
18:50 geoffb I'm a little battle-weary this morning, so I'm not too worried about details.  My big happy is that it's all localized in /usr/local/share at least
18:50 autrijus :D
18:50 autrijus which sys is this?
18:50 geoffb Debian etch w/ sid bits
18:50 geoffb Built standard way, instead of using debian/rules, of course
18:51 autrijus hm
18:51 autrijus the .hi bits is redundant.
18:51 geoffb ?
18:51 autrijus they will be installed into ghc libs anyway
18:51 autrijus can you rm them from /usr/local/share/perl/5.8.7/Pugs-6.2.10/
18:51 autrijus and put a test.hs:
18:51 autrijus import Pugs
18:51 autrijus main = pugsMain
18:51 autrijus and then compile it:
18:51 autrijus ghc --make  test.hs
18:51 autrijus ./a.out
18:51 autrijus and see if it works?
18:52 geoffb OK, .hi's deleted
18:52 geoffb Going somewhere outside of pugs tree to create test
18:53 geoffb oh, duh, need to register to do this
18:54 geoffb BAH
18:54 geoffb you can't make register after deleting those files:
18:54 geoffb ./Setup register
18:54 geoffb Registering Pugs-6.2.10...
18:54 geoffb Reading package info from ".installed-pkg-config" done.
18:54 geoffb ghc-pkg: /usr/local/lib/Pugs-6.2.10 doesn't exist or isn't a directory
18:54 geoffb make: *** [register] Error 1
18:54 geoffb make install'ing again
18:55 geoffb D'oh!
18:55 geoffb 'make register' has the wrong place.  It's expecting /usr/local/lib, into which nothing has been installed
18:55 geoffb you're up, autrijus
18:55 geoffb :-)
18:55 autrijus hmmmm.
18:55 autrijus I blame ghc-pkg
18:56 autrijus just to humour me, mkdir /usr/local/lib
18:56 Cryptic_K has joined #perl6
18:56 autrijus make install and make register, see if that works.
18:56 geoffb There already was a /usr/local/lib (standard in debian FHS)
18:57 autrijus grep copy Makefile
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18:57 autrijus see what your copy-prefix is
18:57 autrijus append that to ./Setup register
18:58 geoffb sorry, multitasking with child-wrangling
18:58 autrijus that's entirely fine
18:58 autrijus mm rafl made my life very intersting.
18:58 autrijus but for good cause, no doubt about that
18:59 geoffb nodnod
18:59 geoffb Interesting.  copy-prefix=$(DESTDIR)
18:59 geoffb DESTDIR seems to be nothing
19:01 autrijus wow indeed.
19:01 svnbot6 r7446 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
19:01 svnbot6 r7446 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: pil2js.pl: Be able to be run from $pugslibdir.
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ | * util/PugsConfig.pm: Very minor comment fix.
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ | * src/Pugs/Run.hs: Include $pugslibdir/perl6 in the default @*INC.
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ | * src/Pugs.hs: Find jspugs.pl, runjs.pl, and pugs-p5.pl even if $sourcedir
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   had been deleted and thus $pugslibdir has to be used.
19:01 autrijus what is rafl smoking?
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   The patch is a bit hacky (for example, pugs-p5.pl is searched for in --
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   amongst other dirs -- PIL2JS), but seems reasonable given that the directory
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   structure of $sourcedir doesn't match the one of $pugslibdir.
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   Note: PIL-Run still can't be run from $pugslibdir.
19:01 svnbot6 r7447 | iblech++ |   Note: pugs::hack is not yet updated WRT the recent dir moves.
19:01 autrijus oooh iblech++
19:01 autrijus geoffb: try this
19:01 autrijus ./Setup install
19:01 autrijus ./Setup register
19:01 autrijus both as root
19:02 geoffb I'm using sudo, but same diff
19:02 autrijus k
19:02 geoffb Now that worked
19:02 geoffb trying to make test file again
19:02 geoffb Woah:
19:02 geoffb Chasing modules from: test2.hs
19:02 geoffb Compiling Main             ( test2.hs, test2.o )
19:02 geoffb Linking ...
19:02 geoffb /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lparrot
19:02 geoffb collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
19:03 geoffb I guess it's the dual-embed
19:03 geoffb um, right, which -L to use
19:04 autrijus -L/path/to/parrot/blib/lib
19:04 autrijus or ldconfig it
19:04 autrijus your choice
19:05 geoffb used first option
19:05 geoffb Got a little further:
19:05 geoffb Chasing modules from: test2.hs
19:05 geoffb Skipping  Main             ( test2.hs, test2.o )
19:05 geoffb Linking ...
19:05 geoffb /home/geoff/svk/parrot-trunk/blib/​lib//libparrot.a(global_setup.o): In function `create_config_hash':
19:05 geoffb src/global_setup.c:34: undefined reference to `parrot_get_config_string'
19:05 geoffb collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
19:05 autrijus right
19:05 geoffb brb
19:05 evalbot_7445 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:06 autrijus add /path/to/parrot/src/parrot_config.o
19:06 evalbot_7447 has joined #perl6
19:06 autrijus to the ghc line
19:06 autrijus rafl: I'm reverting your "copy" fix.
19:06 autrijus rafl: we need to let GHC manage and take over.
19:06 autrijus and --copy-prefix=(nothing) does not help
19:06 saorge has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:07 autrijus rafl: if there is no prefix, we can't have --copy-prefix
19:08 autrijus as it will use '.' as the prefix
19:08 autrijus sad but true
19:09 geoffb OK, ghc --make -L/parrot/blib/lib test2.hs /parrot/src/parrot_config.o linked
19:09 autrijus is there a portable way in make to test that?
19:09 geoffb And it runs pugs!
19:09 geoffb whee
19:09 autrijus $copy = $DESTDIR ?? "--copy-prefix=$DESTDIR" !! ""
19:09 autrijus something like that
19:09 autrijus geoffb: whee.
19:09 autrijus geoffb: good, then all the heart wrenching in the past three days is worth it :D
19:09 geoffb :-)
19:09 geoffb nodnod
19:12 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, what does ghc-pkg command do for pugs please?
19:12 coral parrot can run pugs?
19:12 autrijus coral: or vice versa, but yes
19:12 coral neat
19:12 autrijus xinming_Beijing: it registers pugs into the GHC package db
19:13 xinming_Beijing I think, the modules you told me to check is right. But for Makefile, It still use the ghc-pkg command in system instead of the version I compiled
19:16 elmex__ has quit IRC ("leaving")
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19:16 autrijus xinming_Beijing: aha.
19:16 autrijus xinming_Beijing: see nc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm
19:16 autrijus xinming_Beijing: see inc/Module/Install/Pugs.pm
19:16 autrijus line 183
19:16 autrijus it detects $ENV{GHC_PKG}
19:17 xinming_Beijing But... I try to make a synbolink to the ghc-pkg-`version` But still fails.
19:18 autrijus xinming_Beijing: can you trace line 188?
19:18 svnbot6 r7448 | iblech++ | pugs::hack, perl5/PIL2JS/README: Updates WRT the recent dir moves.
19:18 autrijus        $ghc_pkg =~ s/\bghc(?=[^\\\/]*$)/ghc-pkg/  # ghc-6.5 => ghc-pkg-6.5
19:18 autrijus            or $ghc_pkg = 'ghc-pkg'; # fallback if !/^ghc/
19:18 autrijus I _think_ it is doing something bad for you
19:18 autrijus put a "die $ghc_pkg" after that line.
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19:22 autrijus rafl: I'm also thinking that, if Cabal's
19:22 autrijus ./Setup install
19:22 xinming_Beijing autrijus: It will die, Is it right?
19:22 autrijus does register implicitly
19:22 autrijus xinming_Beijing: er, yes, but die with that?
19:22 autrijus rafl: then our install shall do the same.
19:22 autrijus I'll make that so.
19:22 xinming_Beijing autrijus: the ghc I compiled.
19:22 autrijus xinming_Beijing: so it is the right one?
19:24 xinming_Beijing autrijus: hmm, But the .setup-config still filled with wrong ghc and ghc-pkg
19:24 autrijus xinming_Beijing: I got it. sec
19:24 autrijus yeah
19:24 autrijus fixing
19:26 cognominal what means "restarted _SOME_DATE" in STATUS?
19:27 cognominal MM stands for multimethods?
19:29 joao has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
19:31 autrijus cognominal: aye
19:32 autrijus xinming_Beijing: fixed. committing
19:32 xinming_Beijing autrijus: where the problem is please?
19:33 Khisanth really? I kept thinking it was for MetaModel :/
19:34 autrijus er
19:34 autrijus it is metamodel in STATUS context. ;)
19:34 autrijus sorry.
19:36 autrijus xinming_Beijing: the problem is that ./Setup --configure
19:36 autrijus needs to be told of where ghc etc is
19:36 cognominal I am frilled to see autrijus tackling types
19:37 autrijus I'm very much looking forward to it, but MM and containers have precedence.
19:37 autrijus one thing at a time :)
19:37 cognominal :)
19:37 autrijus and we need to do something about rules some day.
19:38 geoffb Man, I wish I had the tuits to work on rules.  I would learn *so* much.
19:38 geoffb Alas, ETOOFEWTUITS
19:39 autrijus xinming_Beijing: retry
19:39 geoffb cognominal, when I say "restarted SOME_DATE" in STATUS, I meant that something had been stalled or blocked, and work started back up at that time
19:39 autrijus r7449
19:39 cognominal geoffb: thx for the explanation
19:40 geoffb sure
19:40 autrijus iblechbot: got tuits to get -BPerl5 running under the new arrangement as well?
19:41 autrijus geoffb: what's your next column about?
19:41 svnbot6 r7449 | autrijus++ | * xinming++ for pointing out that for nonstand GHC locations,
19:41 svnbot6 r7449 | autrijus++ |   our ./Setup configure did not catch any them up.  This should
19:41 svnbot6 r7449 | autrijus++ |   fix it for real.
19:41 autrijus wow, that was extra bad spelling.
19:41 xinming_Beijing autrijus: might works... :-)
19:42 evalbot_7448 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
19:42 autrijus xinming_Beijing: woot
19:42 evalbot_7449 has joined #perl6
19:42 xinming_Beijing +++++++++++++++++++++++++
19:42 xinming_Beijing :-)
19:43 geoffb autrijus, I'm thinking of "After -Ofun: Thoughts on optimization"
19:44 geoffb A column about code optimization.
19:44 autrijus interesting
19:44 autrijus what are the metrics?
19:44 geoffb After that, I need some more subject ideas, since I haven't been reading tech news for a week now to conserve tuits, so nothing is triggering.
19:45 geoffb Hold on a couple minutes, I'll toss an URL at you with my notes
19:45 autrijus k
19:45 autrijus mm the law of conservation of tuits
19:45 luqui has joined #perl6
19:45 geoffb :-)
19:45 autrijus greetings luqui
19:46 luqui gurreetings!
19:46 autrijus how's $work -- I mean $school?
19:46 luqui Okay.  Requiring much loss of sleep.
19:46 luqui But I caught up today, getting 14 hours.
19:47 luqui Today, I'm going to port L::AG to parrot.
19:47 Cryptic_K has quit IRC ("Leaving")
19:48 autrijus does it work in reasonable space for p5 already?
19:48 luqui no
19:48 autrijus mm.
19:48 luqui I couldn't decide which to do first
19:48 autrijus neither al or pm has been porting L::AG to parrot?
19:48 luqui neither understand the algorithm.  al wrote a little grammar for it
19:49 luqui to which I replied "it's probably best not to have a grammar at all"
19:49 autrijus oh?
19:49 autrijus combinators?
19:49 autrijus AG combinators would be interesting idea
19:50 luqui uh, yes, "combinators"
19:50 luqui (not really)
19:50 luqui (just a proceduralish interface: add_rule, add_type and whatnot)
19:51 autrijus ah, stateful combinators
19:51 autrijus aka knobs
19:51 autrijus cool
19:51 geoffb .oO( The Asymmetric in ADSL is an understatement . . . )
19:51 autrijus you know you're too much a programming language geek when you see ADSL and parses "Attributive Domain Specific Language"
19:52 luqui haha
19:52 geoffb *smirk*
19:52 autrijus which, in a way, is what AGs are
19:52 autrijus luqui: actually your work complements hers.
19:52 dduncan has joined #perl6
19:53 autrijus luqui: given a grammar, a reasonable visitor can turn an external AG document into procedural calls
19:54 luqui sure
19:54 autrijus luqui: anyway, I'd love to hear about your experience of parrot porting. my bias is that exploratory programming in PIR is pain, so I'd probably code up the algo first in something else
19:54 Cryptic_K has joined #perl6
19:55 luqui you mean like Perl5?
19:55 autrijus luqui: but that is just bias and not founded, so if your experience turns out otherwise
19:55 luqui :-)
19:55 autrijus then I'd be glad to hear about it
19:55 xinming_Beijing autrijus: works for now...
19:55 autrijus yeah, I mean like p5.
19:55 autrijus xinming_Beijing: nice
19:55 * luqui thinks PIR is probably a pain too, and cringes when al says something like "we could implement a subset of Perl for AGs"
19:56 luqui (when brainstorming what to put inside the syntax, which caused me to propose the syntaxless formation)
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19:57 svnbot6 r7450 | iblech++ | PIL-Run: Ability to be called from $pugslibdir instead of $sourcedir.
19:57 svnbot6 r7450 | iblech++ | * Was easier than adapting PIL2JS (no precompiled Prelude,Test, no special
19:57 svnbot6 r7450 | iblech++ |   JS Metamodel handling)
19:57 svnbot6 r7450 | iblech++ | * This means -[BC]{Perl5,JS} work with an installed Pugs again :)
19:57 cognominal hum, EHC seems to be based on AG
19:57 autrijus luqui: well, that's her plan all along
19:57 evalbot_7450 has joined #perl6
19:57 autrijus a subset of perl, that is
19:58 luqui I guess so
19:58 autrijus it'd be interesting to see how it unfolds
19:58 cognominal http://www.cs.uu.nl/wiki/Ce​nter/AttributeGrammarSystem
19:58 autrijus cognominal: yes, I've been playing with UUAG
19:58 autrijus and I think it's promising to use as eg the typechecker for pugs
19:58 autrijus as well as other semantic analysis.
19:59 autrijus ...and nothingmuch, upon hearing that, went ahead and did exactly that.
19:59 autrijus for blondie
19:59 cognominal how can you learn all that ... and program? beats me.
19:59 integral no one's done any work on porting ghc/jhc/ehc/hugs/nhc to parrot yet?
19:59 autrijus integral: no, parrot codegen was not feasible really
20:00 integral :-(
20:00 autrijus 0.3.0 is already much better, and hopefully 0.3.1 will come with variable-sized registers and sane lexical pads
20:00 autrijus without the former you can't use CCs reliably
20:00 integral I didn't realise the situation was quite that bad
20:00 autrijus without the latter you can't gen closures efficiently.
20:00 autrijus it's only bad for functional languages ;)
20:00 autrijus it already go a quite reasonable procedural/primitive OO set of features.
20:01 autrijus cognominal: by not doing much else, of course
20:01 integral hmm?  do you mean something where you don't have thousands of very small closures generated all the time?
20:01 autrijus integral: aye
20:01 geoffb Outlinish notes for next week's blog, thoughts/additions VERY welcome: http://www.broadwell.org/graph​ics/pigge/docs/opt-notes.html
20:02 integral jhc doesn't avoid that?  I thought whole program analysis could sequence lots of stuff and figure out when they'd be forced so you wouldn't really need to generate the closures
20:02 autrijus integral: oh, jhc can use parrot as C
20:02 autrijus I don't think it will be efficient.
20:02 autrijus I'd like a better Grin->Parrot
20:02 autrijus having a CPS engine and not using CCs is... weird :)
20:03 integral hehe
20:03 autrijus also not if you want to respect the calling conv
20:03 autrijus for interop
20:04 integral personally I think the whole interop thing is better just ignored, and each language use FFI-style declarations to call across language barriers
20:04 geoffb autrijus, see link from 2-3 min ago.
20:05 autrijus geoffb: already looking
20:05 geoffb (y)
20:05 autrijus integral: FFI has C as lowest common denom
20:05 autrijus integral: CLR proved they can do richer types and better object semantics.
20:06 autrijus also neat things like named parameters and optionals
20:06 cognominal UUAG is under the Artistic license, good karma :)
20:06 autrijus cognominal: yes :D
20:06 integral autrijus: I wasn't thinking quite down to C, but something like the current parrot conventions,  but in the HLL you'd just explictly declare which entry points to generate as language unspecific
20:06 integral ie it could be bolted on once parrot actually worked
20:06 autrijus geoffb: wow, it's huge. you sure it will fit in 1 column?
20:06 autrijus integral: I tend to agree with you.
20:07 autrijus integral: but in dynam lang
20:07 autrijus it's very common to conjure up random functions
20:07 autrijus and/or oebjects
20:07 autrijus and it'd be best to have the glue generated for them
20:07 autrijus not explicitly declared
20:07 integral hmm, so you'd need some kind of dynamic exporting system too, you couldn't have all those thunk glue pre-generated
20:07 autrijus right, exactly
20:07 autrijus I did that with Inline::MzScheme
20:08 geoffb autrijus, that's part of my problem.  I got started, and then just kept going.  At this point, I'm considering one of two options:
20:08 autrijus it is doable just tedious.
20:08 geoffb 1) Break into multiple columns
20:08 geoffb 2) Do one column, which is a general overview, with a link to more detail.
20:09 * geoffb not sure about which, but definitely would like to fill in the outline some more in either case.  It's got some big gaps because I skipped around as things came to mind
20:10 autrijus geoffb: I think multi work
20:11 autrijus each section is compartmentized
20:11 autrijus so you can cover a few eac
20:11 autrijus h
20:12 geoffb If I do it as multi, I *definitely* need to fill in more, so that no one column feels week
20:12 autrijus yeah. I tihnk fill in some more and split in 2
20:12 geoffb BTW, what do you think of the content so far?
20:12 svnbot6 r7451 | autrijus++ | * rule_used_in_Str fails back to using PGE; if it's not there
20:12 svnbot6 r7451 | autrijus++ |   we need to skip it.
20:13 autrijus geoffb: I think it want one or more running case studiess.
20:13 evalbot_7450 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:13 geoffb hmmm
20:13 autrijus not in much detail
20:13 evalbot_7451 has joined #perl6
20:13 autrijus just a theme you can use to illustrate points
20:13 geoffb That's starting to move from blog to article, but you've got a point
20:13 geoffb nodnod
20:13 Cryptic_K has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:13 autrijus otherwise it'd feel like nothingmuch's "sex in the 70s" talk.
20:13 autrijus the first half of it anyway
20:13 geoffb ?!?
20:14 autrijus (he had a talk about complexity management in yapcna; the first half is lots of general abstract points, but the case study did not appear in full until later)
20:14 geoffb ah
20:14 geoffb hmmm, good point
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20:15 autrijus but this is blog, so you don't need to explain in any detail
20:15 autrijus just random finger pointing will do.
20:15 autrijus as we know, that's what blog is best about.
20:15 autrijus ;)
20:16 * geoffb is better at "short article" style blogging than "link slut" style blogging
20:17 autrijus nod
20:18 autrijus in -Ofun, for each abstraction you added one or more case example
20:18 autrijus it reads very well.
20:18 geoffb nodnod, and thx
20:20 autrijus_tw has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:21 autrijus excellent, my .tw server of autrijus.org died.
20:21 whiteg has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
20:21 revdiablo has quit IRC ("Reconnecting")
20:22 revdiablo has joined #perl6
20:22 geoffb Man, you have the worst computer luck . . .
20:23 autrijus don't mention it ;)
20:23 * autrijus triggers evacuation settings
20:23 geoffb ?
20:25 autrijus mail forwarding and web forwarding etc
20:25 geoffb ah
20:26 autrijus btw, does irc.pugscode.org workforyou?
20:26 geoffb could not be found
20:27 autrijus mm
20:38 autrijus dns takes time to propagate I guess.
20:38 integral depends on the TTL on the records...
20:39 vladtz has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:45 * autrijus goes back to pugs
20:45 autrijus sigh.
20:46 obra heya autrijus
20:46 autrijus yo obra.
20:46 obra How's it going?
20:46 autrijus autrijus.org just died.
20:46 obra urgh
20:46 obra backups?
20:46 autrijus sure
20:46 autrijus but in .tw
20:46 * obra wonders if after pugs you want to do a distributed server project
20:48 obra seriously bummed to hear that, though.
20:48 obra anything you need?
20:49 obra autrijus: What did you use to make your Takahashi Method slides?
20:49 autrijus obra: OOo Impress
20:49 autrijus and whilst downloading it, MS Powerpoint.
20:49 obra nod
20:49 autrijus but the outline is done in vim first
20:50 autrijus as usual.
20:50 obra *nod*
20:50 * obra ponders vim with ^l inserted and a huge font
20:51 autrijus may not be a bad idea.
20:58 * luqui decides to rewrite L::AG in Perl first before doing it in PIR
20:58 luqui maybe I can convince pm or al to do it in the mean time :-)
20:59 * autrijus resists an attempt of joking about mean time and average time.
20:59 autrijus gaal: I forcibly fixed the Prelude trans to cure trans.t
20:59 autrijus hm, somehor Arcfour insists going back to failing. I thought I fixed the subclassing bug already...
21:00 wolverian hm, does gobby use the same protocol as moonedit/subetha?
21:00 wolverian (rather OT..)
21:01 autrijus subetha sends frozen cookies around
21:01 autrijus so I doubt so
21:03 obra wolverian: no. it does not
21:03 obra none of the tools share a protocol
21:06 wolverian hm
21:07 wolverian that is not very logical. :)
21:09 obra why? the're different products from different vendors with no speced protocol?
21:09 obra s/?$/./
21:15 wolverian it is not very logical from the consumer's point of view
21:15 wolverian going to sleep, now, bye :)
21:15 obra Welcome to software. 'night
21:23 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:41 luqui ?eval 3 but { $_ += 1 }
21:41 evalbot_7451 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 3
21:41 luqui ?eval my $x = 3; $x but { $_ += 1 }
21:41 evalbot_7451 Error: Can't modify constant item: VRef <Scalar>
21:42 luqui ?eval my $x = 3; $x but { $_.say }
21:42 evalbot_7451 3 \3
21:45 dolmen has joined #perl6
21:49 svnbot6 r7452 | autrijus++ | * Use brute force to solve the .trans problem.
21:52 evalbot_7451 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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21:56 rmoriz has joined #perl6
21:56 rmoriz hi
22:13 rafl autrijus: Please set a default DESTDIR of none is set.
22:13 rafl autrijus: And don't do register when installing. At least not with a way to disable it. Otherwise there are major problems when packaging it for Debian and other systems.
22:14 autrijus rafl: what should the default be?
22:15 autrijus rafl: do you always trigger vendor install?
22:15 clkao strange. i have conflicts when updating pugs
22:15 autrijus mmmm?
22:16 rafl autrijus: /usr/local/. Or run install instead of copy if DESTDIR isn't set.
22:16 clkao Pugs.hs somehow got changed?
22:16 clkao or is it svk bug?
22:16 autrijus I have no idea
22:16 autrijus I don't think install changes Pugs.hs
22:16 rafl autrijus: Yes. /usr/local/ is reserved for site local stuff in Debian. Everything goes into /usr/ therefor.
22:16 clkao are you on latest svk?
22:16 autrijus clkao: ye
22:16 autrijus trunk
22:16 clkao ya, runing perl makefile.pl changes pugs.hs
22:17 autrijus rafl: okay, let me recap: have a "register" target
22:17 autrijus clkao: uh how?
22:17 autrijus rafl: and for "install", detect for DESTDIR
22:17 autrijus if it's there, revert to "copy".
22:18 rafl autrijus: Yes. It would also be good to remove pugslibdir from util/PugsConfig.pm and install blib6/pugs into \$(DESTDIR)$config->{sitelib} or \$(DESTDIR)$config->{privlib} according to type of install (site/vendor)
22:19 cyclist38 has joined #perl6
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22:19 autrijus aw my head.
22:19 timos has joined #perl6
22:19 rafl Err, why? :-)
22:19 autrijus just as when iblech changed things meticulously to make pugslibdir work...
22:20 rafl Hrm, right.
22:21 rafl Then let's set pugslibdir to sitelib or privlib?
22:21 rafl Which would be hard because we don't know that in PugsConfig.pm.
22:23 rafl How about using the whole perl5 @INC? I think that's more robust and it still works if we put the perl5/ stuff on CPAN for the next release.
22:25 autrijus you mean search for auto/pugs/ in all INC?
22:26 autrijus can we spare ourselves for this release? I really want to get it released :)
22:26 autrijus I can fix the register thing.
22:28 rafl Well, I would have large problems in getting 6.2.10 into Debian if it hardcodes /usr/local/ somewhere.
22:29 rafl Differenciating between sitelib and privlib would be enough for this.
22:33 autrijus wait, where do we yet hardcode usrlocal?
22:35 rafl $Config{sitelib} which is /usr/local/perl5 for Debians perl.
22:35 rafl util/PugsConfig.pm:37
22:36 rafl Or /usr/local/share/perl5. I don't remember exactly.
22:37 * autrijus pouts
22:37 autrijus I think we still want a pugslibdir; maybe we can list both directories
22:37 autrijus so it gets searched
22:38 autrijus however, searching all of @INC for auto/pugs/ is clearly more portable.
22:38 autrijus but pugs doesn't know perl5's @INC.
22:38 autrijus so maybe you give me a set of possible pugsconfig keys
22:38 autrijus and I search those appended with auto/pugs/.
22:39 autrijus and then you can go ahead and fix the Makefile targets.
22:39 dduncan I posted another smoke, of 7451
22:40 dduncan it looks like someone else did too, but we got rather different results
22:41 rafl autrijus: $Config{sitelib} and $Config{privlib} should be enough.
22:41 autrijus rafl: okay. do you have a second to do the Makefile.PL / PugsConfig side change?
22:41 autrijus I'll fix the hs side.
22:43 rafl Unfortunately not. Tomorrow morning at the earliest.
22:43 dduncan there were 2 repository snapshot / darwin, Normal runcore, r7451 ... 90 min and 10250 succ, 60 fail ... vs 31 min, 9874 succ, 436 fail
22:43 rafl OK, so sorry inconveniences and good night.
22:44 autrijus rafl: no compromises is a good thing. :)
22:44 dduncan mine is the 90 min
22:44 autrijus thanks for your infinite patience.
22:47 integral dduncan: is that 90 min on ~1GHz?
22:48 dduncan I have a dual 1Ghz G4 ... didn't pay attention to how much the smoke used
22:48 dduncan I could run it again and check though
22:48 integral oh, no, I was just wondering if it'd take the same time on my box, sounds like yes, or longer
22:49 dduncan the timing isn't so much the issue though, I'm more interested in the different number of test successes and fails
22:49 * autrijus decides to leave the pugsdir thing to rafl...
22:49 autrijus ...as I don't really have a Debian system here.
22:50 dduncan during make, both CPUs are being utilized, with Pugs on one and Perl on the other, each using most of theirs
22:50 integral gosh :-)
22:50 dduncan or ghc as the case may be
22:51 dduncan but the 90 min isn't for the make process
22:51 dduncan there is also plenty of RAM ... all the physical isn't in use yet
22:52 dduncan ghc eats a lot of both
22:52 integral it's a pity swap interacts poorly with swapping
22:52 integral err, gc
22:56 dduncan okay, make is done, now to observe make smoke on the latest svn
22:56 rafl autrijus: feather is a debian testing system.
22:58 autrijus rafl: I'll still wait for you
22:58 autrijus (also, please try to stay away from gmakeisms. :))
22:58 dduncan okay, I'm seeing that the smoke proper mainly involves pugs, which is using 100% of 1 of the CPUs; since it is single-threaded, it can't be split up ... but the managing script in perl is on the other cpu at next to zero usage since its mostly waiting
22:59 dduncan integral, what are the cpu and ram specs of your box?
22:59 dduncan mine is 768M
22:59 integral I've a 1GHz iBook 1.25GB
22:59 dduncan I would say yours should be around the same speed as mine then
22:59 integral it still has 1-2GB of swap file, *grr*
22:59 dduncan how much RAM?
22:59 integral 1.25GB
23:00 dduncan oh yes
23:00 dduncan yours should be roughly the same speed as mine ... if its CPU intensive, maybe a smidgen slower
23:00 dduncan biab
23:01 * integral tweaks his config.yml to actually upload.  I'll leave one running while I hopefully sleep
23:01 autrijus cool
23:01 dduncan actually, I'm quitting activity monitor and top, since they take their slice too, though it may not make a difference due to pugs being bound to 1 cpu ... it would make a difference for you, though
23:02 integral top's darn expensive, more so with crappy Terminal
23:02 dduncan but since mine has it on a separate cpu, it may not matter unless pugs can use both
23:02 dduncan I don't ever expect pugs to be multithreaded, unless its easy, though I expect parrot to be
23:03 integral it might be easy with ghc 6.5's stuff, I wonder how much you can parallelise compilation of subroutines for example
23:03 integral (all the internal variables are already STM TVars)
23:04 dduncan autrijus, it occurs to me that if the smoking script can be set to run multiple pugs processes at once, such as doing different tests in parallel, it would better utilize multi-CPU boxes like mine, speeding up the smoke a lot, each process on a separate cpu
23:04 integral dduncan: hmm, I thought you could with smoke_concurrent in config.yml?
23:04 dduncan I didn't tweak any config file
23:04 dduncan I just ran the default smoke
23:05 integral looks like you just set it to the number of CPUs
23:05 autrijus dduncan: what integral said.
23:05 dduncan okay, I fixed that
23:06 cognominal has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:08 dduncan but while make smoke acknowledged that concurrent = 2, top shows only 1 pugs process active, though there are 2 perl processes active
23:09 cognominal has joined #perl6
23:10 dduncan do I have to do something else?
23:11 dduncan I just noticed that I don't set Test.pm to pre-compile ... that may contribute to my slower speed also
23:12 dduncan I'll address that next time, after seeing what effect just the SMP has
23:13 autrijus k.
23:20 clkao Failed 1/450 test scripts, 99.78% okay. 7/8294 subtests failed, 99.92% okay.
23:20 clkao t/builtins/arrays_and_hashes/pair is the only one
23:20 obra are preflights needed?
23:22 dduncan back in an hour or so
23:26 autrijus clkao: I'm fixing that.
23:26 clkao cool
23:27 clkao do you happen to know why spidermonkey is failing on freebsd?
23:27 clkao it doesn't pass its tests
23:27 autrijus no idea, I build it by hand
23:27 clkao hmmm
23:27 clkao force install?
23:27 clkao or your tests pass?
23:27 autrijus force
23:29 clkao -DWITHOUT_TEST
23:37 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:38 integral hmm, here's an interesting error in the smoke output: PackFile_unpack: Bytecode not valid for this interpreter: version mismatch
23:38 integral Parrot VM: Can't unpack packfile /Volumes/Unix/parrot/src/parrot/runt​ime/parrot/library/Data/Escape.pbc.
23:41 autrijus mm, probably an old parrot
23:41 integral ah
23:43 svnbot6 r7453 | autrijus++ | * give up on any pretense of magical pair's sanity; we will
23:43 svnbot6 r7453 | autrijus++ |   revisit this after release, preferably adopt some variation
23:43 svnbot6 r7453 | autrijus++ |   of luqui's proposal.  We Will Be Back.
23:48 evalbot_7452 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:48 evalbot_7453 has joined #perl6
23:54 scook0 has joined #perl6
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23:55 Ash has joined #perl6
23:58 clkao slacker giving up things!
23:58 autrijus clkao: er, actually, that is an informal complaint against the nonworkableness of larry's decree.
23:59 autrijus which, I assure you, not for lack of trying...
23:59 clkao :)

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