Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-10

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 gaal er, except that it isn't appearing on ther server. putting on feather.
00:00 svnbot6 r7516 | autrijus++ | * disable rules.t correctly without taking lots of parsing.
00:01 dduncan are changes post r7512 ending up in 6.2.10, or are they for later? ... if they're for now, every update to that release should have a corresponding ChangeLog update to what r is represented
00:02 dduncan separate point ...
00:02 dduncan *** PIL2JS needs the Class::Rebless module from CPAN.
00:02 dduncan should this be considered a warning or error?
00:02 autrijus dduncan: warning, I think
00:02 dduncan make[1]: *** [pure_all] Error 1
00:02 dduncan make: *** [build_perl5] Error 2
00:02 evalbot_7515 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
00:02 autrijus hm, but it dies.
00:02 dduncan that comes with it, but pugs seems to have been produced anyway
00:02 evalbot_7516 has joined #perl6
00:03 autrijus gaal: thoughts on us taking the drastic measure of bundling Class::Rebless?
00:03 dduncan running the pugs, it says internally that it is the newest r
00:03 gaal fscking adsl upload ratios :(
00:03 gaal autrijus: nah, put it in the p5 core. :-p
00:04 autrijus okay, failing that.
00:04 gaal http://perlcabal.org/~gaal/smoke_xp.html
00:04 autrijus I'm thinking to append to perl5/PIIL2JS/lib.
00:04 dduncan is the r# inside the pugs binary, or inside a data file that it reads?
00:04 gaal sure, it's a tiny module.
00:04 autrijus dduncan: inside
00:04 gaal 556 files  10340 test cases: 10340 ok, 0 failed, 1551 todo, 954 skipped and 0 unexpectedly succeeded  100.00%
00:04 dduncan then that should mean the make worked then
00:04 dduncan but the 'error' can confuse users
00:05 autrijus dduncan: solved. thanks!
00:05 svnbot6 r7517 | autrijus++ | * add Class::Rebless to avoid frivolous errors.
00:05 gaal lol
00:05 autrijus :)
00:08 gaal ah, the server did of course accept the smoke, i just forgot to look for 6.2.9 :)
00:08 gaal yo other smokers, where are y'all?
00:08 dduncan I noticed that all the smokes said 6.2.9
00:08 evalbot_7516 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
00:09 gaal yes, pf2 bug
00:09 evalbot_7517 has joined #perl6
00:09 gaal known and fixed
00:10 gaal s/2/1/
00:12 zuulvin_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:17 gaal okies, I've got $work tomorrow and it's getting late, going now
00:17 gaal happy flying :)
00:18 autrijus thank you gaal :)
00:18 autrijus putter: the upshot is that embed won't work reliably for PGE until 0.3.1
00:18 autrijus as the C side calling conv seems broken.
00:18 autrijus c'est la vie.
00:18 gaal (-: zzZZZ &
00:20 putter back
00:21 wcting has quit IRC ()
00:21 autrijus putter: a bogus check was placed at parrot_pass_args_fromc
00:21 autrijus has since been rescinded in trunk
00:21 dduncan autrijus, will there be any more preflights, or do you now have enough confidence to just ship from the repository at time?
00:21 putter ah.  so README or INSTALL fodder?
00:22 zuulvin_ has joined #perl6
00:22 autrijus putter: nod.
00:22 putter done? or needing to be done?
00:22 autrijus putter: needing to be done. can you help?
00:22 putter doing...
00:23 putter my other incident was the eval_yaml failure.
00:23 autrijus yeah, seems like a 64bitism
00:23 autrijus ghc 6.4.1?
00:23 putter yes
00:25 putter embedded parrot 030 is broken on all platforms?  and the trunk is believed to work?
00:26 autrijus yes. yes.
00:29 putter does this pugs still work with external pre-leo-ctx5 parrot?  or are we only >=030
00:29 svnbot6 r7518 | autrijus++ | * Use the newer parrot_load_bytecode API to load PGE
00:29 svnbot6 r7518 | autrijus++ |   code and avoid the bogus "eval".  This only helps in
00:29 svnbot6 r7518 | autrijus++ |   post-0.3.0 parrot though. sigh.
00:29 evalbot_7517 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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00:32 Megzl has joined #Perl6
00:32 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
00:32 Megzl Is there a perl6 version to test?
00:32 Megzl what the fuck. Perl6 written in haskell?
00:33 Megzl You people are insane.
00:33 obra ...
00:33 dduncan you come from slashdot?
00:33 dduncan sounds like it, Megzl
00:34 Megzl I didn't exactly come on IRC just cause of slashdot.
00:34 autrijus greetings.
00:34 Megzl #Perl6 was only a /join away.
00:34 Megzl But, I did see the slashdot article.
00:34 autrijus Megzl: insanity (in moderation) is celebrated around here, yes.
00:35 cognominal ho, pugs slashdotted.
00:35 autrijus putter: how's it going?
00:35 cognominal I like to read /. threads to learn about all the misconceptions that people have about Perl :)
00:35 Megzl Particularly, I read about Geoff Broadwell (Pugs? is his name), and in his little 'description it said:
00:35 Megzl "He is on a personal mission to prove that dynamic languages are by far the best programming option for almost every purpose,"
00:36 autrijus cognominal: important thing, that :)
00:36 dduncan these days they are, when programmer time is more valuable than cpu time, and hardware is cheap
00:36 Megzl I came here to find out if you really think that's possible...
00:36 Megzl I work on 3d code.
00:36 Megzl How could that possibly be written in an interpreted/non compiled language?
00:37 autrijus Megzl: it can't.
00:37 dduncan it could be controlled by one though
00:37 Megzl Then Geoff Broadwell's descriptor is incorrect.
00:37 autrijus consequently, you'll notice that almost all dynamic languages nowadays are compield.
00:37 autrijus dynamic is a property of the type system.
00:37 dduncan use compiled for high calculation intensive work, and hardware speaking, and dynamic languages can control those parts, be the glue
00:38 Megzl When can't you have a compiled dynamic language?
00:38 Megzl That compiles to an executable.
00:38 Megzl I don't take dynamic languages very seriously because they don't compile to a fast executable.
00:38 Megzl None I've heard of, at least.
00:38 Megzl I'm really surprised nobody has done it.
00:38 autrijus Megzl: Dylan, I hear.
00:38 autrijus Python with Psyco, too.
00:39 Megzl I'm not stuck with C++.
00:39 Megzl I only use it cause it's fast. But I don't love the static typing.
00:39 cognominal Megzl: sometimes you want to optimize other dimensions than speed
00:39 wolverian oh, nice, autrijus is on /. :) congratulations!
00:39 wolverian (I think..)
00:39 autrijus Megzl: Scheme and lisp, from another setting.
00:39 autrijus Megzl: there are plenty of compiled fast dynamic languages :)
00:39 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
00:39 autrijus it is a harder problem to compiled them, yes, due to the lack of type information
00:39 Megzl I just love C++'s syntax.
00:39 autrijus but it has been done and will be done better still :)
00:40 dduncan there's a brand new article ... someone want to first it?
00:40 dduncan oop, too late
00:40 dduncan right between those posts
00:40 Megzl Can you tell me why dynamic languages are good?
00:41 dduncan a lot faster
00:41 Megzl I do tons of dynamic stuff in C++, I have a whole framework built around boost::any.
00:41 dduncan to develop
00:41 Megzl It does everything I could want.
00:41 putter autrijus: do pre 030 parrots work external, or are we strictly >= 030?
00:41 autrijus Megzl: that makes it a dynamic language.
00:41 dduncan Megzl, think of dynamic languages as a less dynamic language with certain libraries built into the language
00:41 autrijus putter: all reasonably recent parrot should work external
00:42 autrijus Megzl: it's really a gradient... I'm a firm believer of "dynamic with prototyping, static when optimizing"
00:42 dduncan eg, certain things you have as libraries in C are built-in to Perl, such as basic memory management and string libraries and etc
00:42 autrijus Megzl: and any language that lets you do that is a Good Thing.
00:42 autrijus C++ included.
00:43 Megzl I have a little bit of a dynamic language I use for my own purposes on top of C++ -- and the syntax is simple. And it compiles to be fast. doing Perl seems like going too far
00:43 Megzl with C++ I get the best of both
00:43 Megzl with Perl I only get the dynamism
00:43 Khisanth dduncan: and regular expressions :)
00:43 autrijus Megzl: yes, that is very true. which is why perl6 is going for optional staticness.
00:43 dduncan indeed, but that's more of a perl thing than languages in general
00:43 Megzl ah
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00:44 autrijus Megzl: it's really like Dylan in that regard. I think you'll like Dylan.
00:44 Megzl well, if perl6 can be static, I'll give it a more serious look this time.
00:44 autrijus Megzl: at least, the standard library is sprinkled with type annotations.
00:44 dduncan one of perl's strenghths is borrowing good ideas from other languages and improving them
00:44 autrijus the user can still elect to write all-dynamic scripts.
00:44 wolverian I'm not sure how static perl6 will be, but it will certainly be optionally typed.
00:45 dduncan staticness in this case
00:45 cognominal Megzl: Perl6 will targets parrot which is a VM build around a typed assembler
00:45 cognominal so supporting (alos) staticness is a core goal of Perl6
00:45 cognominal s/alos/also/
00:46 Khisanth hrm Perl6 seems to be targetting several things :)
00:46 cognominal that's why it is long in the making
00:47 autrijus ?eval multi add (Int $x, Int $y) { $x+$y }; multi add (Str $x, Str $y) { "$x$y" }; add('Hello ', 'Megzl');
00:47 evalbot_7518 'Hello Megzl'
00:47 mugwump chasing many rabbits down many holes
00:47 autrijus ?eval multi add (Int $x, Int $y) { $x+$y }; multi add (Str $x, Str $y) { "$x$y" }; add(21, 21)
00:47 evalbot_7518 42
00:47 autrijus Megzl: see? :)
00:47 Megzl Yes, I see.
00:48 Megzl The only thing I don't see, is why it can't actually compile to fully optimized fast code under the hood. And I guess that's what you guys are telling me perl6 will do.
00:48 autrijus Megzl: yup :)
00:49 autrijus Megzl: one of us has just started playing with type inference to generate fast native C code.
00:49 autrijus (it's in misc/Blondie/ in the pugs tree.)
00:51 dduncan I'll be back in an hour or so, meanwhile smoking r7517
00:51 putter I haven't been using external parrot much lately.  how much difference does it make for end users?  (providing context for whether they should bother grabbing cvs parrot)
00:51 autrijus putter: almost not at all
00:51 autrijus putter: a slightly slower startup time (1sec)
00:51 autrijus that's all.
00:52 autrijus since we keep parrot process harnessed fastcgi-style.
00:52 putter k
00:53 autrijus putter: I'm not sure I can get the syck 64bitism fixed for this release.
00:54 autrijus esp since my home box of amd64 is currently offline.
00:54 autrijus putter: I think we'll leave it failing for you for now, unless you feel strongly about it
00:54 autrijus otherwise I'm ready to fly.
01:02 autrijus putter?
01:05 putter pong. ok.  documented.  checking in
01:05 autrijus excellent!
01:07 putter sorr for the delay.  english writing braincells on strike
01:07 svnbot6 r7519 | putter++ | INSTALL: document parrot dependencies and eval_yaml() bug
01:08 putter actually, does yaml being broken have any larger implications worth mentioning?
01:08 putter (not that it's clear there are more than a handfull of x86_64 pugs users yet...)
01:08 autrijus your mentioning is fine.
01:09 autrijus okay. fly!
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01:11 * putter revisits concept of having a ui that points out when his clock speed has decayed unnoticed...
01:12 putter ah, an airborne pugs... a nice sight...
01:13 svnbot6 r7520 | autrijus++ | * This be Pugs, version 6.2.10.
01:13 autrijus whew. thank-you all :)
01:13 * autrijus uploadeth
01:14 autrijus http://pugscode.org/dist/Perl6-Pugs-6.2.10.tar.gz
01:14 autrijus sanity check before I CPAN it?
01:15 putter grabbing...
01:16 putter err
01:17 autrijus ?
01:17 * putter waits 11 seconds so tarfile dates are in the past...
01:17 autrijus err.
01:18 putter err, what happened to cookbook?
01:19 autrijus examples/cookbook?
01:19 autrijus what happened?
01:19 putter yes, its in my SVN, but not in the tar...?  checking...
01:20 autrijus it is there to me.
01:20 putter ok, so just some specific files are missing, eg
01:20 putter 03dates-and-times
01:21 autrijus there were no files in it anyway.
01:21 autrijus maybe you did not svn add them?
01:21 autrijus no files were there in the previous release either.
01:21 autrijus other notable omissions?
01:21 pasteling "putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "svn vs release diff" (32 lines, 1.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13592
01:21 putter debian?
01:22 autrijus checking.
01:23 khisanth_ has joined #perl6
01:23 autrijus debian is explicitly not listed.
01:23 autrijus by rafl, so I assume it's okay.
01:23 autrijus other looks harmless.
01:23 putter MIME/Base64?
01:23 autrijus empty directory.
01:24 khisanth_ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
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01:24 putter err ext/MIME-Base64/lib/MIME/Base64.pm?
01:24 putter never mind
01:24 autrijus :)
01:24 autrijus may we uplaod to CPAN? :)
01:25 putter k, well, my svn copied work, and it matches (havent checked permissions), but nothing obvious...
01:25 slushpupie has joined #perl6
01:25 fglock hi all - congrats for the new release!
01:25 autrijus changes topic to: 6.2.10 released! http://xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): http://xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 | www.geeksunite.net
01:25 autrijus thanks fglock!
01:26 putter what happend to t/builtins/system?
01:26 autrijus explicitly delisted - space in directory names - beyond workaround.
01:26 putter k
01:26 autrijus (MANIFEST syntax problem)
01:27 putter then happy pugs in flight.  which just has entirely different visuals since I browsed a "Pugs" magazine.
01:27 autrijus okay, uploading :)
01:28 autrijus putter++ # last-minute sanity check
01:28 RedEar has left
01:30 fglock putter - re lazy Array: I think there is a way to make it O(1) - I'll try to work on it tomorrow
01:30 putter nifty.
01:30 fglock I was away for about 4 days due to work - missied the best part of the release work :(
01:30 putter me too
01:31 autrijus :)
01:31 putter yaaaaaayyyyyy PUGS!  (inflect <cheer>)
01:31 * autrijus waves goodnight
01:31 fglock good night autrijus
01:31 putter good night autrijus &
01:31 autrijus *wave* &
01:34 Khisanth inflect?
01:36 putter said with a particular inflection.  should probably have been  say "..." :inflect<cheer>  ;)
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01:46 putter fglock: fyi, I've a rewrite of EvalX is started last weekend.  will hopefully get i‌n sometime in the not too distant future...
01:46 putter s/is/i
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01:53 dduncan ... back
01:53 dduncan um, yay and stuff
01:54 fglock putter: we've talked about moving some files around - are there any changes?
01:58 dduncan well, now that the release is out, big changes can be made ...
01:58 putter no...  feel free. :)
01:59 dduncan now to smoke another camel ...
01:59 dduncan its amazing how some coincidences can work together
02:00 putter ;)
02:01 * putter delights in Earth, at 10^6 meters per mm, being... a blue marble.  (13 mm)
02:03 * putter does not delight in having to CPS convert, and thus notably uglify, the prolog regexp engine so local() in repeated embedded code clauses works correctly. :/
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02:55 Pyked heya
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03:10 sleepster is now known as typester
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03:19 putter fyi, Perl6-Pugs-6.2.10 passed make test on FC3 x86_64 w default config.  yay.  Including eval_yaml(), which I was expecting to fail. !?!
03:21 putter hi Pyked.   you've hit the "night time" of #perl6.   things will pick up in another 6 hrs or so.  fyi.
03:27 Khisanth putter: that is pretty strange :)
03:27 Khisanth considering pugs is hacked by people in various timezones
03:36 evalbot_7520 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
03:36 svnbot6 r7521 | Darren_Duncan++ | ChangeLog updated to add the next release template, for Pugs 6.28.0
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03:37 putter weak us pacific presence.  and most of us east doesnt stick around until the wee hours.  and asia folks tend to run late.  so europe isnt awake yet, asia has stumbled off to bed, and europe isnt up yet.  happens most every night.
03:37 mugwump sure, but after the US goes to bed it's a while before Europe wakes up
03:38 stevan hey mugwump long time no see
03:39 mugwump yeah I know.  It's been months since I did any large amounts of Perl 6
03:39 mugwump your metamodel is looking delightfully simple when I last looked at the pictures
03:39 stevan thanks :)
03:40 stevan the eigenclass thing threw me for a little while,.. but I think I got my head around it now
03:42 putter the ruby C source is nicely readable.  hmm, though maybe not the part you would care about.
03:42 svnbot6 r7522 | Darren_Duncan++ | moved /misc/Rosetta-Incubator to /ext/Rosetta-Incubator since this code should be installable in time for 6.28.0
03:42 stevan putter: I am not very good at reading C actually
03:42 putter ah
03:43 stevan I get lost when I see too many &&& and *** stuff
03:43 stevan but eigenclasses were mostly a conceptual barrier anyway
03:43 stevan I needed to see how they fit in,.. and where
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03:44 dduncan mugwump, stevan, with this new stretch ahead of us up to 6.28.x, we can now start coding some serious object oriented perl 6!
03:45 dduncan oh, and I'm on the west coast of NA, so its about 9pm here
03:45 stevan dduncan: yes, that is the plan :)
03:45 mugwump almost 5pm here in NZST
03:45 mugwump and I'm giving an svk talk at 6pm :)
03:45 stevan 11:44 here in EST
03:45 dduncan to whom?
03:45 mugwump australia?
03:45 stevan mugwump: nice. I just started using SVK myself
03:46 dduncan I'm debating whether to switch to svk from svn
03:46 mugwump oh, 11:44pm in America's EST
03:46 stevan dduncan: the nice thing about SVK is that it is so interchangeable with svn
03:47 stevan I havent used any of the advanced features of svk yet actually,.. I use it just like it was svn
03:47 mugwump it's 1:46pm in Australia's EST :)
03:47 stevan dduncan: there is also a very nice DMG on the svk website too,.. point-click install for Tiger
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03:47 dduncan stevan, will have to look at that ... does it work with Panther too?
03:47 stevan mugwump: I didnt realize australia had an EST too,. however that make sense,...
03:48 dduncan they have 3-4 time zones I think
03:48 mugwump Australia and US Timezones are the only clashes
03:48 stevan dduncan: never tried it with panther,.., but when I upgraded to Tiger recently it made installing svn much easier (two for the price of one)
03:49 stevan because the svk dmg comes with a nicely pre-compiled svn too
03:49 dduncan I plan to upgrade to Tiger post the huge 10.4.3 patch, perhaps waiting to .4 also
03:49 mugwump that really is the great thing about svk ... it just works like svn until you start merging
03:49 stevan dduncan: why are you waiting?
03:50 dduncan for one thing, Tiger had a lot of changes and I wanted to let them stabilize
03:50 dduncan I only have one comp, for work and testing, so want to lower my risk
03:50 dduncan in particular, Tiger adds filesystem changes, which are the highest risk type of change
03:50 stevan dduncan: I know the feeling,.. I waited until my recent $work project was done until I upgraded
03:51 dduncan moreover, I don't *need* Tiger's new features
03:51 stevan dduncan: thats what CD Burners are for ;)
03:51 dduncan I make backups too, but that's not the point
03:51 stevan I dont need them either,..
03:51 dduncan I also wanted to make sure my software was compatible first ... I'm upgrading my apps first
03:51 stevan however,.. I have to say Tiger seemed "zippier"
03:51 dduncan just did ghc a few days ago, to 6.4.1
03:53 dduncan in any event, I do have a Tiger install DVD since it first came out ... part of an ADC mailing
03:54 dduncan mugwump, do you plan to make a Tangram in Perl 6 soon ... to go with your data file conversion utility?
03:55 mugwump ok, the plan on that front is to get the T2 (RAD|CASE) tool going on Catalyst + T2 + TT + AJAX on Perl 5...
03:56 mugwump then make sure T2::Perl6 works against the lastest MetaModel
03:56 mugwump Then I can hopefully write in Perl 5 and 6 at the same time
03:57 dduncan so in other words, you have an existing development project in perl 5 to complete first
03:57 mugwump With that other tool I can rope more people in with a bit of luck
03:57 mugwump more people from my current job :)
03:58 dduncan and if more people from your job use it, you can get to work on it at your job more often
03:58 dduncan on it or with it
03:59 mugwump that's the idea.  Also I should be able to use the tool for re-engineering existing applications
04:00 putter stevan: I have urls for some browsable ruby c src files... but I suspect this is a case where independent invention is preferable, so there's greater potential for innovation.
04:03 dduncan in my case, I'm hoping that if any other FOSS projects (eg Tangram) end up using Rosetta when it's ready, then the existing user bases of those projects also become potential income sources for me, in regards to paid support or improvements to my part of what they're using ... one can dream anyway
04:03 stevan putter: URLs are good too,.. it is better to know what they are doing then to repeat their mistakes :)
04:05 putter yes, but its often worth leaving such cross checks for after the dev is done... but here they are...
04:08 putter in http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/ruby/  http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/​cvsweb.cgi/ruby/class.c?rev=1.92 http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/c​vsweb.cgi/ruby/object.c?rev=1.179 http://www.ruby-lang.org/cgi-bin/​cvsweb.cgi/ruby/eval.c?rev=1.836  i think those are the key ones.  skimmable.
04:09 stevan putter++
04:09 putter "i think those are the key ones" as in "i'm tired, so I may well have missed some"... :)
04:10 stevan object.c and class.c would be the expected places for it,..
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04:14 putter yeah.  i thought there was another piece, but i guess I was confused...
04:23 dduncan the new pugs is now on search.cpan.org ... I've downloaded and am now smoking that camel
04:26 putter ok.  way past end of day.
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04:28 putter good night all &
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04:57 svnbot6 r7523 | Darren_Duncan++ | Deleted the older ext/Locale-KeyedText, which ext/Rosetta-Incubator supersedes
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05:47 scook0 I notice we made slashdot again :)
05:56 jql programming languages are underloved on /.
05:57 jql PHP: sucks. Perl: sucks. Perl6: gonna suck. Python: sucks. Ruby: lets port Rails to X. C#: evil. use C++. C++: sucks, use C#
05:58 * jql frowns upon /.
05:58 * gaal cheers for 6.2.10
05:58 gaal man this night could have been longer
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06:16 dduncan but now that 6.2.10 is out, the *real* fun begins
06:16 dduncan or at least more-real fun
06:17 rafl Yay, a release! :-)
06:18 QtPlatypus dduncan: What are the big ticket goodies that 6.2.10 has?
06:19 dduncan see the changelog
06:19 dduncan what I mean by fun is what the *next* release, 6.28.0, will bring
06:20 dduncan full metamodel integration, meaning proper object support, and so we can start writing a lot more un-cludgy perl 6 code
06:20 dduncan those are big changes, which couldn't really start until 6.2.10 was out ... that's my reason for more-fun
06:21 dduncan of course, we can start using those between now and then, so the fun begins within days
06:21 dduncan or now
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06:21 dduncan I'm starting to write serious perl 6 now, even if it doesn't run right away, it should by the next release
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06:44 forsaken whats the learning curve going from 5->6?
06:46 jql the initial curve is search-and-replace
06:46 jql alot of code will still work with a search-and-replace
06:48 Khisanth after that, brain upgrade!
06:49 forsaken hehe
06:49 GeJ has joined #perl6
06:49 forsaken just curious if it was a good idea to start learning perl6 now, or wait until the parrot version was realeased (so i can use it on other boxes)
06:50 scook0 the learning curve will be easier if you already know a few other languages
06:50 scook0 because P6 fixes a few things in P5 that other languages already got 'right' the first time
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06:51 jql perl tends to be a moving target even in the most stable of times
06:52 scook0 forsaken: just be aware that 'production-ready' P6 isn't something you should be holding your breath for just yet
06:53 jql perl6 is still a parasitic language...
06:54 scook0 I love the fact that P6 is willing to "steal from the best with pride"
06:55 revdiablo That's lwall's MO
06:55 revdiablo =)
06:55 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
06:55 scook0 avast, nothingmuch!
06:55 jql perl6 is a voyage of discovery and pillaging
06:55 nothingmuch morning
06:55 nothingmuch is it pirate day II?
06:56 jql @Larry is a band if pirates, buring archive networks and raping languages
06:56 scook0 see, that's the thing I don't like about pirate day
06:56 nothingmuch this is funny, because I just reorganized the pirate flag I posted on my cubicle on sep 19th
06:56 scook0 now, if you talk like a pirate on any other day, people tell you it's the wrong day for it
06:56 nothingmuch it's not wrong =)
06:56 nothingmuch it's just surprising
06:56 jql it's never wrong. RAmen
06:57 scook0 :)
06:57 nothingmuch cars and ironed shirts don't get along
06:57 scook0 nothingmuch: how so?
06:57 forsaken aye
06:57 nothingmuch cars have seat belts
06:57 nothingmuch and other nassty things with pointy teeth
06:57 nothingmuch that make the shirt all crumpled
06:57 nothingmuch it's also the way you sit in them
06:58 nothingmuch and the fact that I'm not a careful persomnm
06:58 nothingmuch as evident from my typing ;-)
07:01 scook0 is there an easy way to match /\s+/ in Parsec?
07:01 scook0 `whiteSpace` does \s*, but I need \s+
07:03 scook0 aha: skipMany1 space
07:04 Khisanth hmm
07:05 Khisanth nothingmuch: you just need to gain weight or wear smaller shirts! :P
07:05 nothingmuch Khisanth: interesting theory
07:05 * nothingmuch likes the way parsec is verbose but still usable
07:06 nothingmuch we should be able to do that in perl rules
07:06 nothingmuch have aliases to things like \s and *
07:06 nothingmuch or +
07:07 * nothingmuch complains about gaal's blog and rss
07:08 scook0 parsec is absolutely fantastic
07:08 scook0 parsing is such a natural fit for monads and combinators
07:09 * nothingmuch wonders if scook0 has an opinion about PArrow
07:10 * nothingmuch has started reading, but at some point had something else to do
07:10 scook0 I've not really looked into arrows
07:10 scook0 I hear they're fancy, but I don't know much about them
07:11 * nothingmuch recites: monad is-a arrow, arrow is not a monad
07:11 nothingmuch or something like that
07:11 justatheory has joined #perl6
07:11 scook0 arrow generalises monad?
07:11 nothingmuch yup
07:11 nothingmuch for every monad there is a corresponding arrow thingy
07:11 nothingmuch but not vice versa
07:12 nothingmuch my problem with reading the article is the fact that there were something like 17 different binding operators
07:12 nothingmuch and by the time the guy was making a point, operators were oozing out of my ears
07:12 scook0 nothingmuch: got a url?
07:13 * nothingmuch searches
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07:14 nothingmuch i think it was this: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~rjmh/Papers/arrows.ps
07:14 scook0 eww, .ps :)
07:16 nothingmuch pstopdf
07:16 scook0 or ggv
07:17 nothingmuch or lpr
07:17 scook0 last time I used ps2pdf the output was horrible
07:17 scook0 probably needed to tweak some settings
07:18 jql kghostview likes it
07:18 scook0 so I just opened up the .ps in Preview on a Mac -- crystal clear
07:18 nothingmuch this seems promising: http://www.haskell.org/tmrwiki/ArrowsIntroduction
07:18 scook0 gah, I still can't get `foo.bar` to work
07:19 jql crap, you're right. PDF sucked
07:19 jql the baseline jumps
07:19 nothingmuch preview does ps to pdf conversion internally... i wonder if the tool is exposed
07:20 scook0 well, I was using ps2pdf on my Ubuntu box
07:20 scook0 versus Preview on the uni mac
07:23 dduncan as I recall, postscript is Mac OS X's native GUI language
07:24 scook0 ssh++ (because installing latex on a uni lab computer would not be fun)
07:24 geoffb <rez>
07:24 dduncan all the drawing to screen is in postscript, as with the print system, so it should be natural to simply open such files also
07:24 geoffb Interesting.  I get my 15 seconds of fame on my day off . . . .
07:24 dduncan tjat
07:25 scook0 when Preview opens a .ps, it saves to a .pdf before displaying it
07:25 dduncan that's also why there is OS-level support for many complex graphical effects, such as "aqua" uses in abundance
07:28 scook0 VICTORY!
07:28 scook0 (`foo.bar` now parses correctly!)
07:29 nothingmuch scook0++
07:29 scook0 modulo me having broken something else ;)
07:31 scook0 in current pugs it parses as `foo(bar)`
07:31 scook0 my initial patch broke it completely
07:31 nothingmuch it was broken before you came
07:31 nothingmuch and now it is fixed
07:31 scook0 my next attempt turned it into `foo($_.bar)` :)
07:31 nothingmuch after you came and fixed it
07:31 nothingmuch hehe
07:32 scook0 nothingmuch: I'm just about to clean up the patch--care to test it in a bit?
07:35 nothingmuch sure
07:37 scook0 perlbot nopaste
07:37 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
07:37 nothingmuch svl diff ... | pbotutil.pl -s pugs -m "scook0's patch'
07:38 pasteling "scook0" at 220.253.96.162 pasted "Parser patch MkII" (152 lines, 6.3K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13596
07:38 scook0 huh?
07:38 nothingmuch pbotutil - it rocks
07:38 scook0 nothingmuch: teatime; bbl &
07:38 nothingmuch ciao
07:45 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
07:47 nothingmuch hola Aankhen``
07:48 Aankhen`` Morning nothingmuch.
07:48 scook0 mmm ravioli :)
07:49 Khisanth svl?
07:50 Aankh|Clone has joined #perl6
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07:51 nothingmuch Khisanth: errm, svk
07:51 * nothingmuch had pesto twice this week
07:51 nothingmuch i've been really lazy about dinner
07:51 nothingmuch because:
07:51 nothingmuch pesto rocks
07:51 nothingmuch it doesn't make a big mess
07:51 nothingmuch it's fast
07:53 * scook0 is still using svn, but plans to try out svk some day
07:53 nothingmuch it's a drop in replacement
07:53 nothingmuch but you can also do local branching
07:53 scook0 so everything I do now with svn works word-for-word? (s:g/svn/svk/)
07:55 nothingmuch AFAIK yes
07:55 nothingmuch but ask #svk to be sure
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07:59 jql ask svk caused a dyslexic seizure for me
08:00 jql I couldn't quite make sense of it
08:01 scook0 gah, my stubborn fingers refuse to type 'svk' :)
08:02 nothingmuch alias
08:02 jql svn svk svn svk svn svk svn svk svn svk. I don't even touch-type, and it's hard
08:03 * nothingmuch always gets higih rep for his banal perlmonks posts, but the ones which I really invest effort into are usually ignored
08:04 jql I only answer really really hard questions. I think I have only 2 or 3 posts on perlmonks
08:04 scook0 jql: at least they're both fairly easy to type
08:04 revdiablo nothingmuch: That's the way of it... the Monks are weird sometimes.
08:04 * jql cherry-picks the interesting ones
08:04 scook0 every time I type `my` in Perl, I cringe :)
08:04 * nothingmuch answers 1 - 0.3 posts a day
08:04 dduncan why?
08:05 scook0 no other two-letter combination involves moving one finger so much
08:06 jql I don't touch-type. it helps
08:06 jql especially with !@#$%!
08:06 jql I use 2 hands for my
08:06 scook0 jql: language! :P
08:06 jql right hand hits m, left hand hits y
08:07 dduncan not being able to keyboard is nasty ... can't do much of anything without that skill
08:07 jql and my right hand also presses space & shift, while my left moves to the top row for the imminent $@%
08:07 scook0 touch-typing was the single most useful thing I learned in high-school
08:08 dduncan when keyboarding, the same finger types the 'm' and 'y' anyway, and they aren't far from each other ... on a QWERTY keyboard anyway
08:09 scook0 dduncan: using the same finger makes it harder
08:09 dduncan maybe, but you use the same fingers for many keys anyway, the 'my' isn't special
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08:10 Khisanth slower :)
08:10 * nothingmuch also does two handed my
08:10 Khisanth which was one of the design goal of qwerty or something ...
08:10 Khisanth two handed?
08:10 dduncan still, you can't get keywords much shorter than 'my', save the math operators
08:10 scook0 sure, it's great to read
08:10 dduncan the design goal of qwerty was to slow people down
08:10 jql keyboard efficiency is why I liked the ./ operator
08:10 nothingmuch Khisanth: the design goal of qwerty, minus the myth was - to be fast enough but give good distribution across the keyboard
08:10 dduncan so typewriters didn't jam
08:11 jql so very easy
08:11 scook0 I guess I'll just have to pick up two-finger my
08:11 jp-autark we should rename "my" to "me"
08:11 nothingmuch so that your hands are usually hitting distant keys, and the arms don't jam
08:11 scook0 jp-autark: me @hearties
08:11 jql and rename our to us?
08:11 dduncan well, feel free to customize perl 6 in that way ... you can, you know
08:12 revdiablo nothingmuch: So it was more about the distribution than the slowness?
08:12 Khisanth jp-autark: too bad the Pirate name is already used for something else :)
08:12 nothingmuch revdiablo: yes
08:12 dduncan yes
08:12 jp-autark :)
08:12 nothingmuch it was slightly slower than ideal
08:12 Khisanth shiver me $timbers; ..
08:12 dduncan its so keyboards don't jam
08:12 dduncan because hammers close together weren't hit in sequence
08:12 nothingmuch but dvorak is, in practice, only about 10-15% faster for people who are pushing the limit of qwerty
08:12 dduncan less likely to collide with each other
08:13 dduncan s/keyboards/typewriters/
08:13 dduncan mechanical ones
08:13 nothingmuch dvorak has another advantage besides speed, though - the movement is not as big, so i hear it's healthier
08:13 Khisanth old typewriters :)
08:13 nothingmuch but Juerd is the person to ask about this
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08:16 scook0 nothingmuch: are you running the test, btw?
08:16 nothingmuch scook0: ooops... I started build, but got distracted
08:16 nothingmuch tee hee ;-)
08:17 nothingmuch (burning stuff, trying to hunt a bee, etc)
08:17 * scook0 crosses fingers for test-pass
08:18 scook0 curses, svk.elixus.org is broken
08:19 nothingmuch scook0: i'll let you know if tests are failing due to parse errors
08:19 nothingmuch and i'll also let you know when it's done
08:19 scook0 nothingmuch: thanks
08:19 scook0 confident about this one
08:20 * scook0 touches wood
08:20 * nothingmuch minimizes window and starts working more intensively
08:20 dduncan as of r7523, all tests pass on the default haskell backend
08:20 dduncan current version that is
08:20 nothingmuch dduncan: this is an uncomitted patch
08:20 dduncan yes, well go all out
08:20 dduncan this is the time to go all out
08:20 scook0 well, it was committed once
08:20 scook0 then reverted, because it was broken :)
08:21 nothingmuch this is really cynical: [email@hidden.address] 'Please help Hurricane Katrina victims !!! ?'
08:21 dduncan url?
08:21 jql geez
08:22 dduncan a spam?
08:22 nothingmuch dduncan: err, yes
08:22 dduncan anyway, good night
08:22 nothingmuch darcs devel listmod
08:22 nothingmuch good night
08:22 scook0 bye dduncan
08:26 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
08:26 dduncan has left
08:48 nothingmuch scook0: bad news
08:48 scook0 gasp
08:49 scook0 what have I broken?
08:49 nothingmuch t/01-sanity/01-tap.........​........................***
08:49 nothingmuch    unexpected "j"
08:49 nothingmuch    expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
08:49 nothingmuch    at -e line 2, column 7
08:49 nothingmuch ***
08:49 nothingmuch sorry, i was away for a while
08:51 scook0 looks like I'm failing to backtrack somewhere
08:51 scook0 hold on
08:51 rantanplan_ has joined #perl6
08:52 scook0 01-tap doesn't even have a 'j'
08:52 scook0 looks like my patch screwed up before the first sanity test even began parsing!
08:52 pasteling "nothingmuch" at 212.143.92.226 pasted "exact output of ./pugs -Ilib t/01-sanity/01-tap.t 2>&1" (4 lines, 167B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13597
08:53 nothingmuch say '1
08:53 nothingmuch the ' is ticking it off
08:54 scook0 say('1') works fine though
08:54 scook0 it's a problem with listop-style calls
08:57 nothingmuch =/
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09:12 geoffb Geez, someone came in here saying Perl wasn't good for 3D, and noone pointed him to my Perl OpenGL articles?
09:12 geoffb awww, I'm hurt . . . .
09:12 geoffb :-)
09:12 nothingmuch when?
09:13 * geoffb scrolling back, hold
09:13 justatheory has quit IRC ()
09:13 geoffb http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log​/perl6?date=2005-10-10,Mon&amp;sel=63#l90
09:14 geoffb How be you, nothingmuch?
09:15 nothingmuch i'm good
09:15 nothingmuch you?
09:16 orafu has joined #perl6
09:18 geoffb pretty decent
09:18 geoffb Tired though . . .
09:18 geoffb probably headed to bed in near future
09:19 geoffb Just got kinda jazzed to have one of my articles get noticed, so that kept me up -- and then I decided to catch up with the backlog
09:20 Aankhen`` has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:20 geoffb Holy crap.  My page views for that blog entry went from ~850 to ~5200 so far, presumable because of the /.
09:20 geoffb Given that my previous record was ~2400
09:20 geoffb That's cool.
09:22 Aankh|Clone has quit IRC (Success)
09:23 nothingmuch יוררשי!
09:23 nothingmuch huraah!
09:23 geoffb :-)
09:23 nothingmuch (sorry, didn't notice hebrew was on ;-)
09:23 geoffb heh
09:23 nothingmuch transliterated that is "yorrshi"
09:23 nothingmuch sounds happy
09:24 nothingmuch maybe it means something in an asian language ;-)
09:25 geoffb Here's an interesting question: What percentage of strings of N phonemes actually make a word used in some language?
09:25 geoffb OK, maybe just interesting to me
09:25 nothingmuch it's interesting
09:25 nothingmuch i bet there's statistics
09:26 geoffb That would be pretty cool to see.
09:26 geoffb Well, I have no good excuse to be awake at this hour
09:26 geoffb so I think I will try to not be
09:27 geoffb &
09:28 geoffb (Oh, I forgot: congrats to everyone on 6.2.10!)
09:28 geoffb & # no, really
09:28 scook0 spoot
09:28 scook0 I can get foo.bar
09:28 scook0 or I can get listops
09:28 scook0 but never both in the same build
09:31 nothingmuch scook0: =(
09:31 nothingmuch would having access to a moderately fast machine help?
09:31 nothingmuch and why isn't feather helping, btw?
09:31 scook0 nothingmuch: I never bothered to get a feather account
09:31 nothingmuch hmm
09:32 nothingmuch anyway, i can give you access to a dual processor OSX box
09:32 * autrijus waves weakly and stretches
09:32 nothingmuch hi autrijus!
09:32 autrijus wikipedia admins++ # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gt1234
09:32 scook0 (back when feather started up, I wasn't interested in making code-changes, so I didn't need another box)
09:32 scook0 slashdot?
09:33 nothingmuch heh =)
09:33 autrijus although that vandalism stayed up for 6 hours :-/
09:33 autrijus (someone changed my wikipedia photo into goatse... much fun. *not*.)
09:33 nothingmuch http://www.google.com/search?q=gt1234
09:33 nothingmuch you'll notice that many of the hits are similar
09:33 nothingmuch "your post has been removed as a violation" ....
09:34 nothingmuch i think someone loves you, autrijus =)
09:34 rantanplan_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
09:34 autrijus riight =)
09:34 autrijus I can do with less of that kind of love.
09:34 scook0 autrijus: I can't seem to get listops and `foo.bar` in the same build
09:35 scook0 peppering my code with `try` doesn't seem to help either
09:35 scook0 what can I use to trace the parser?
09:35 autrijus scook0: where's your latest patch?
09:35 autrijus scook0: you can use trace.
09:35 autrijus trace :: String -> a -> a
09:35 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
09:35 autrijus handy stuff. a refreshing desert in the oasis of referntial transparency.
09:36 scook0 I would prefer a refreshing dessert, to be honest
09:36 * scook0 ducks
09:37 autrijus *smile*
09:38 autrijus I need to get some rest... glad that autrijus.org is back to life
09:38 nothingmuch the desert is actually quite refreshing in a clean-your-mind-as-you-acc​ept-death-from-dehydration kind of way
09:38 nothingmuch autrijus: if you like you're more than welcome to backup crucial files to my machine, btw
09:38 nothingmuch i have a raid-0 but no real backup plan
09:39 nothingmuch (though I do plan to do something for mail soon)
09:39 autrijus nothingmuch: thanks for the offer :)
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09:40 * scook0 thinks nothingmuch is addicted to helping people
09:40 autrijus good addiction, that
09:40 nothingmuch scook0: i think that sys admin level help should be shared
09:40 nothingmuch for example, I don't want to pay for a backup MX
09:40 nothingmuch i have a friend who does it for me
09:41 nothingmuch to get these benefits I have to provide them too
09:41 nothingmuch it's just socialist thought =)
09:41 nothingmuch (in the anarchistic, back to the roots sense)
09:41 nothingmuch if i can help at no cost to me, i go ahead and do it
09:41 nothingmuch because it makes people be nicer to me
09:41 nothingmuch it makes me feel good
09:42 nothingmuch and it makes people be nicer to other people, in a cascade
09:42 autrijus funny, as I often explain anarchist attitude as "in the socialisitc, back to the roots sense"
09:42 scook0 :)
09:42 nothingmuch =)
09:42 nothingmuch i think they're so synergetic it's hard to tell them apart
09:42 nothingmuch they cover two aspects of how a good society should ideally support itself
09:43 autrijus ...provided that noone is able to kill another
09:43 autrijus ...and that communication is inexpensive.
09:43 nothingmuch well, that's not part of an ideal society
09:43 nothingmuch i'm not pretentious
09:43 nothingmuch but so far lambdacamels have done me only good =)
09:44 autrijus neither am I... on IRC you can't kill one another and communication is instaneous :)
09:44 nothingmuch =)
09:47 * rafl prepares new official 6.2.10packages for Debian.
09:47 autrijus rafl++
09:49 JAPJuggler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
09:54 nothingmuch css-- for the 40 millionth time
09:54 vasc autrijus, i assume i am talking with the pugsmeister himself?
09:54 kgftr|konobi css++
09:54 nothingmuch vasc: the one an only.... AUTRIJUS!
09:54 nothingmuch kgftr|konobi: how come?
09:55 autrijus vasc: aye, although a somewhat sleepy one.
09:55 vasc autrijus, oh?
09:55 vasc no sleep this night yet?
09:56 vasc erm, the night has come and gone :)
09:56 autrijus just woke up; didn't get quite enough sleep after the long stretch to 6.2.10
09:56 vasc i see
09:56 vasc sorry to pester you, but i wanted to ask a really off-topic question
09:56 autrijus vasc: oh, you are part of freeciv team. thank-you for making a significant portion of my life disappear into hedonistic fun
09:56 autrijus only next to nethack
09:56 vasc autrijus, lol
09:57 autrijus offtopic question is fine
09:57 vasc i noticed you offer darcs and subversion access, i was wondering how you managed that?
09:58 autrijus vasc: currently, very crudely; I use svk to merge the svn.openfoundry.org one to svn.perl.org
09:58 autrijus and at the same time do a "darcs record"
09:58 autrijus so the darcs part is read only
09:59 nothingmuch vasc: the problem with sending darcs patches is that you get them back as conflicts
09:59 nothingmuch autrijus: you could try tailor.py - it's progressed since you started this
09:59 autrijus nothingmuch: yes, I know, and I figured out a way to creatively use tagging to track metadata after discussion with david roundy
09:59 autrijus but it's... not very high priority and a bit complex.
09:59 * nothingmuch is tempted to use tables for layout
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10:17 svnbot6 r7524 | rafl++ | Debian:
10:17 svnbot6 r7524 | rafl++ |  * Update debian/smoker.yml to upload smoke results automatically.
10:17 svnbot6 r7524 | rafl++ |  * Removed code from debian/rules that allows to disable smoke uploading using
10:17 svnbot6 r7524 | rafl++ |    environment hooks. PUGS_BUILD_OPTS="upload_smoke=0" does the same.
10:17 svnbot6 r7523 | Darren_Duncan++ | Deleted the older ext/Locale-KeyedText, which ext/Rosetta-Incubator supersedes
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10:27 rafl gaal: Why is Class::Rebless' Changlog empty?
10:29 nothingmuch because he's lazy?
10:29 nothingmuch ;-)
10:29 nothingmuch that's why most of my changelogs are empty
10:30 nothingmuch or nonexistent
10:30 * nothingmuch thinks he'll make Changelog a hexdump of /dev/random just to up his kwalitee
10:31 rafl Well, so the Debian package won't have an upstream changelog. So what..
10:31 vasc autrijus, thanks a lot, and good luck for your project, not that i think you need luck though :)
10:34 theorbtwo nm: At least make your changelog a dump of the relevant portion of the svn log...
10:35 autrijus vasc: more luck couldn't hurt... I always make sure to carry two or more blessed luckstones around
10:35 autrijus rafl: you aware we bundle C::Rebless for PIL2JS?
10:37 rafl autrijus: Well, Actually.. no.
10:37 autrijus oh ok. there is a nonindexed copy in PIL2JS/lib
10:37 autrijus so we don't strictly need to depend on CR
10:38 rafl Really. Why do we ship it with PIL2JS?
10:38 rafl It wouldn't be a dependency anyway. I'd only suggest spidermonkey-bin and class-rebless. It's not needed for pugs to work.
10:39 autrijus rafl: because dduncan reported that the warning is confusing and it's best to have pil2js prelude uniformly generated (or not)
10:39 autrijus and gaal consented the bundling as C::R is small anyway
10:39 rafl Why not put it in PREREQ_PM?
10:40 autrijus for the next release, maybe.
10:40 autrijus but it was late and we didn't have any dependency for CPAN  modules before for the default configuration
10:40 rafl OK, so I won't add the suggestion to the debian package.
10:41 autrijus k.
10:43 rafl We don't bundle spidermonkey yet, do we? ;-)
10:45 rafl Btw, we have a to YAML.
10:46 Juerd nothingmuch: In fact, speed shouldn't be considered relevant even (re dvorak)
10:46 Juerd Yes, it's faster
10:47 autrijus rafl: mm, we bundle a MiniYAML
10:47 Juerd But a better goal is to type as fast as before with less movement
10:47 Juerd Speed will then automatically improve.
10:47 Juerd And as much as your body thinks is natural
10:48 rafl autrijus: Is it really used by all tools? I don't think so. (I can't think of an other reason to put it in my depends line)
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10:55 autrijus rafl: yeah, smoke needs yaml writing
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10:59 autrijus bbiab...
11:03 pasteling "scook0" at 220.253.96.162 pasted "Parser patch Mk III" (147 lines, 5.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13598
11:03 scook0 nothingmuch: if you're willing to test, there's a new patch up
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11:10 gaal I think we should just put perl 6.0 in PREREQ_PM and be done with all this messy implementation stuff.
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11:10 gaal What? We wanted it to be self-hosting, no? Might as well be self-dependent.
11:11 gaal </silly>
11:11 gaal rafl: you can Recommend: Bundle::Pugs::SmokeKit
11:11 nothingmuch scook0: yes
11:12 nothingmuch but i'm off to lunch, so i'll report when I'm back
11:12 gaal that's yaml, petal, test-tap-* and stuff
11:12 scook0 nothingmuch: k
11:13 gaal as for a changelog... point. I actually have a pending bugfix to C:R (one line patch), so I should contemplate... 0.04!
11:23 rafl gaal: I would have to package that then. I don't like the idea of packaging bundles.
11:25 rafl gaal: Don't to that much releases. That work for the packagers (me!) :-)
11:25 rafl gaal: You were using Debian, right?
11:27 gaal rafl: using debian when? i do use debian
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11:28 gaal but not for building pugs, as my debian box isn't ramful enough
11:28 rafl gaal: Great. So you can test both the Debian and the C:R packages. :-)
11:28 gaal :-) yes indeedy
11:29 gaal are they in unstable already?
11:29 gaal ...or d'ya want to let me dpkg them manually?
11:29 gaal i mean dpkg -i
11:29 rafl No, not in unstable yet.
11:29 rafl feather.perl6.nl/~rafl/debian
11:29 gaal sec
11:30 rafl pugs 6.2.10 will be there soon.
11:31 gaal i'm off to a meeting soon...
11:32 rafl The packages will wait for you. :-)
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11:36 rafl Nooooo! ./usr/share/perl6/5.8/FA/t/DFA.t
11:42 nothingmuch ouch
11:45 nothingmuch scook0: no go
11:45 rafl I can't see why it gets installed there. Anyone?
11:45 scook0 nothingmuch: curses
11:45 scook0 was it something really stoopid?
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11:47 scook0 (woo, nautilus crashes again!)
11:49 rep why do you use nautilus anyway
11:49 scook0 because nautilus comes with gnome
11:49 scook0 and gnome comes with ubuntu
11:49 scook0 and I can't be bothered setting anything else up
11:49 rep i have gnome, and yet i don't use nautilus!
11:50 rep (nor anything else)
11:50 scook0 I don't mind nautilus...except when it crashes
11:52 scook0 rafl: there seems to be an extra copy of t/ inside lib/FA/
11:55 svnbot6 r7525 | rafl++ | * Removed extra copy of t inside ext/FA-DFA/lib/FA. scook0++
11:55 rafl For some reason perl5 contains Makefile.old stuff after doing a realclean. Why?
11:55 rafl The makefile hooks look right.
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11:58 rafl src/gen_prelude* and src/Main* also doesn't seem to be cleaned properly.
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12:07 svnbot6 r7526 | rafl++ | Debian:
12:07 svnbot6 r7526 | rafl++ |  * changelog: Added changes for 6.2.10.
12:07 svnbot6 r7526 | rafl++ |  * pugs-modules.lintian-overrides: Added overrides for new modules.
12:07 svnbot6 r7526 | rafl++ |  * rules: clean up the source tree properly.
12:07 svnbot6 r7526 | rafl++ |  * rules: don't install ./usr/share/perl6/5.8/FA/t/
12:07 svnbot6 r7527 | rafl++ | Debian:
12:07 svnbot6 r7527 | rafl++ |  * rules: removed the smoke uploading code. make smoke handles it.
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12:13 rafl Does the smoke uploading using smoker.yml really work? I see smoke_upload => 0 when building.
12:19 nothingmuch scook0: sorry
12:20 nothingmuch the error is exactly the same as last time
12:20 nothingmuch unexpected "'", 01-tap.t, line 7 column 5
12:20 scook0 weird
12:20 scook0 because mine seems to work
12:20 nothingmuch odd
12:20 nothingmuch oh shit
12:20 nothingmuch i get it
12:21 nothingmuch when I redownloaded the patch I accidentally applied the wrong file
12:21 nothingmuch =(
12:21 scook0 phew
12:21 * nothingmuch is an idiot
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12:21 scook0 it happens
12:22 scook0 anyway, I'm going to bed soon
12:22 nothingmuch ciao then
12:22 scook0 so if you do run the test, either paste the results (and I'll backlog), or else email me
12:23 scook0 unfortunately, I'll probably be super-busy until at least Thursday :(
12:23 scook0 ciao
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12:45 svnbot6 r7528 | rafl++ | * debian/rules: Removed special handling for ext/FA-DFA/. The tests won't be
12:45 svnbot6 r7528 | rafl++ |   installed accidently anymore.
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13:11 gaal rafl: any prefered tests other than just dpkg -i ?
13:13 rafl gaal: I don't know other tests for you module. For pugs (currently smoking) it should be tested if the backends work (needed modules/precpm prelude, etc. are found) and if the haskell module is usable. I don't know that much about hs.
13:14 xerox rafl: what does smoking means in that context?
13:15 rafl xerox: It run's make smoke.
13:16 xerox What does it do, if I could ask?
13:17 rafl It's quite similar to make test (runs the test suite) but outputs a nice html file which will be uploaded to smoke.pugscode.org afterwards.
13:17 xerox Thanks.
13:17 clkao 8
13:18 gaal rafl: Class::Rebless is OK
13:18 gaal the tap-* modules want petal, but you know THAT needs URI
13:18 gaal and MKDoc::XML
13:18 gaal but that's it :)
13:19 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
13:19 gaal yaml presumably is already packaged for debian
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13:22 rafl gaal: What needs URI?
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13:24 rafl gaal: Because I also maintain MKDoc::XML and Petal (I adopted them recently) I know that both depend on everything that's specified in PREREQ_PM. URI is not listed there.
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13:37 gaal rafl: hmm, i thought petal did, checking if it's perhaps something else
13:38 gaal d'oh, Test-TAP-HTMLMatrix does.
13:39 rafl Depends: perl (>= 5.6.0-16), libtest-tap-model-perl, libpetal-perl, liburi-perl
13:39 * rafl doesn't forget dependencies!
13:40 gaal well, okay then ;)
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13:48 * rafl just found out that he maintains he didn't knew about..
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14:09 eric256_ snow!
14:10 gaal eric256_: where?
14:11 eric256_ Denver Colorado...our first snow since i moved here ;)
14:11 rafl In the fridge?
14:11 eric256_ out of 12 people in the office only 2 are here...cowards
14:11 gaal four years ago, almost to the day, i saw the first snow in a lonely place in mongolia
14:11 eric256_ of course our power is coming and going so i might get to go home...or just because no one else bothered to come. lol
14:12 eric256_ i also understand for the first time in my life *why* trees loose there leaves.. the ones that havn't lost there leaves are just getting beat on.
14:13 rafl gaal: Uploading the packages.
14:13 qwr move somewhere more north and soon you'll discover that there is nothing exciting about the snow ;)
14:14 eric256_ hehe
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14:16 rafl gaal: done.
14:17 gaal k
14:18 ingy_ autrijus: done (http://pugs.kwiki.org/)
14:18 autrijus egg selent
14:18 autrijus ingy++
14:19 ingy_ I've been offline for 5 days
14:19 xinming_Beijing ?eval 1+2;
14:19 evalbot_7528 3
14:19 ingy_ well actually I've been pretty offline for 6 months, eh
14:19 xinming_Beijing ?eval {eval "1 + 2"}.say;
14:19 evalbot_7528 <SubBlock(<anon>)> bool::true
14:19 xinming_Beijing hmm, shouldn't it be 3?
14:20 rafl ingy_: You can also kick nwp to finally upload kwiki to Debian.
14:20 ingy_ on the upside I just started inventing a new database ;)
14:20 xinming_Beijing eval "1 + 2" returns 3, and it might be equal to 3.say
14:20 xinming_Beijing ?eval 3.say
14:20 xerox ?eval 1+1
14:20 evalbot_7528 3 bool::true
14:20 evalbot_7528 2
14:20 xerox What is '.say'?
14:21 ingy_ xerox: a printing method
14:21 xinming_Beijing xerox: "string".say is equal to `print "string\n"`
14:21 xinming_Beijing xern: understand? :-)
14:21 rafl And equal to say "string".
14:21 xerox Sure.
14:21 xinming_Beijing hmm, certainly, "string".say can also be written in "string\n".print form.
14:21 xerox ?eval say "thanks"
14:21 evalbot_7528 thanks bool::true
14:22 xerox xinming_Beijing: gotcha.
14:22 xinming_Beijing xerox: hmm, It's a OO like thing in perl 6, which named `indirect notation`\...
14:22 xerox ?eval say "eurt::loob <->"
14:22 evalbot_7528 eurt::loob <-> bool::true
14:22 xinming_Beijing hmm, maybe, I might be wrong for the name.
14:23 autrijus ingy_: what, you extending NIH to the database arena?
14:23 ingy_ autrijus: yeah kinda
14:23 autrijus ingy++ # the knight who say NIH
14:23 xinming_Beijing Ok, Can anyone here answer my question? what will `{ eval "3+4" }.say` print? hmm, I might go and write the test...
14:23 ingy_ it's not an sql db
14:24 ingy_ although someone will write a dbi wrapper I'm sure
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14:24 gaal xinming_Beijing: not 100% sure, but { something }.say is asking for say on a closure
14:24 xinming_Beijing In fact, "{ eval '3 + 4' }".say will do the right thing, But I am not sure about the closure without double quota...
14:24 ingy_ autrijus: I've learned to not be ashamed and to truly embrace my NIH syndrome
14:25 autrijus ingy_: yes, use your uniqueness to its advantage
14:25 gaal {7} is a closure too
14:25 gaal which is why <SubBlock(<anon>)> looks about right.
14:25 xerox ?eval {}.say
14:25 evalbot_7528 <SubBlock(<anon>)> bool::true
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14:26 rafl gaal: So, do they work? :-)
14:26 gaal checking :)
14:27 eric256_ hmm i signed off...and yet i'm still here
14:27 rafl Some have circular deps. You should install them together.
14:27 xinming_Beijing hmm, I think, say will accept the string and numeric context, And closure should be "eval"ed first... just MHO...
14:28 gaal rafl: look good so far
14:28 xinming_Beijing bool context will automatically "upgrade" to numeric context.
14:28 xinming_Beijing :-
14:29 rafl gaal: Also libghc6-pugs-dev? I could not test it so far.
14:31 gaal p5embedd works
14:32 rafl gaal: haskell eval should not. hs-plugins isn't uploaded yet.
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14:32 gaal parrot is not embedded?
14:32 rafl No, no parrot in Debian. Working on it, though.
14:32 gaal ahh
14:32 gaal ok
14:33 rafl It's kind of much work, so I focused on pugs.
14:34 pasteling "gaal" at 192.117.178.34 pasted "libghc6-pugs-dev install fail" (10 lines, 547B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13602
14:34 gaal rafl: sure
14:36 rafl Hm, I think I broke libghc6-pugs-dev. :-(
14:39 rafl Bah, I need to adjust the paths in installed-pkg-config.
14:40 xinming_Beijing rafl: hmm, Is there any reason why GHC in debian still 6.2? even in the sid version...
14:41 rafl xinming_Beijing: 6.4-4.1 is in sid.
14:41 rafl xinming_Beijing: 6.4.1-1 will go in as soon as 6.4-4.1 is in sarge.
14:42 rafl xinming_Beijing: With ghc 6.2 we couldn't even compile pugs.
14:42 rafl xinming_Beijing: See packages.debian.org/ghc6
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14:48 rafl What run's ./Setup configure when building pugs?
14:48 xinming_Beijing rafl: :-S, I ever tried to compile pugs in sid, But failed. hmm, and IIRC, the reason of fail is because of 6.2 :'(
14:49 rafl xinming_Beijing: sid has 6.4, even on all architectures. See the link I've posted.
14:49 xinming_Beijing rafl: I saw.. I remember wrong. :-)
14:52 xinming_Beijing rafl: hmm, util/build_pugs.pl
14:52 xinming_Beijing rafl: maybe.
14:52 rafl xinming_Beijing: Right.
14:53 xinming_Beijing after you perl Makefile.PL, you will find `$(PERL) util/build_pugs.pl _+SETUP --prefix=$(DESTDIR) ...`
14:53 xinming_Beijing in Makefile
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15:03 rafl Right. ./Setup configure is called with the args between _+SETUP and _-SETUP.
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15:21 offby1 to what number are the Pugs release numbers converging?
15:21 offby1 2 * pi ?
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15:22 iblech offby1: Yep.
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15:25 offby1 forgive me, but I don't see how 6.2.10 fits into that sequence ...
15:26 iblech offby1: Only the first two parts of the version number (6.2) converge to 2pi. The last part is simply incremented (6.2.8, 6.2.9, 6.2.10 --> 6.28.0, 6.28.1, etc.)
15:26 coral heh
15:28 offby1 ah, that explains it!
15:28 * offby1 thought he'd forgotten what pi was
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15:32 * eric256_ tries to decide if he is hungry enough to walk and or drive in the snow. lol
15:34 * offby1 decides for him: yes
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15:39 gaal autrijus: just noticed a frivolous wkifification of *] and SQL::Routine[* in the release announcement on your journal.
15:44 offby1 do the various examples in the pugs source all work, or are some of them suffering bitrot?  i.e., if I want to learn more about programming in perl6, are they a good place to look?
15:45 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
15:46 iblech offby1: They are definitely worth reading. Also look at the modules in ext/ and the testsuite in t/
15:46 integral if they've suffered bit rot, learn perl6 and fix them =)]
15:46 iblech ?eval "Also note that the sourcecode to the evalbot is in examples/network/evalbot/ (with the necessary module in ext/Net-IRC/)"
15:46 evalbot_7528 'Also note that the sourcecode to the evalbot is in examples/network/evalbot/ (with the necessary module in ext/Net-IRC/)'
15:47 iblech (as an example of code which definitely works)
15:48 rafl Someone should continue to work on XML-SAX. I want to write the same for Jabber chats. :-)
15:49 offby1 integral: I wouldn't mind, but until I'm pretty good with perl6, I have a chicken-and-egg problem: can't learn perl6 without good examples; can't make the examples good until I know perl6
15:50 iblech offby1: Luckily, #perl6 can help you :)
15:50 iblech rafl: ooh :)
15:51 integral offby1: iirc most of the programs in examples/ itself do work, but some of the subdirs are more dodgy.
15:51 offby1 integral: OK, thanks.
15:54 gaal fr
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15:55 gaal er.
15:55 gaal rafl: have a new package for me to test?
15:56 rafl gaal: building. It runs the tests. My hardware isn't that fast.
15:57 gaal np :)
15:58 gaal btw (probably related)
15:58 gaal dpkg -P libghc6-pugs-dev
15:58 gaal ghc-pkg: cannot find package Pugs
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16:00 rafl gaal: Yes, because postinst could not register it with ghc-pkg.
16:00 gaal k
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16:01 eric256_ offby1 - if you find stuff that doesn't work let us/me know.  I'll be happy to help you learn/repair examples
16:01 eric256_ ;)
16:01 eric256_ is now known as eric256
16:02 offby1 eric256: is your email address in some file in the examples directory, or are you reachable only by IRC?
16:04 eric256 IRC is probably best since then ther are lots of people to help
16:05 eric256 perlbot nopaste
16:05 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
16:05 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "nmake error" (17 lines, 924B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13604
16:06 eric256 i'm gettnig that error "Can't locate YAML.pm" when trying to nmake
16:07 gaal eep
16:07 eric256 pugs still seems to run and work but i got that error....is it safe to ignore?
16:07 gaal it is if you don't need the JS backend
16:07 gaal i didn't think it depended on yaml :(
16:08 iblech eric256: Fixed in r7529
16:08 iblech gaal: Right, it was just for debugging ("use YAML; die Dump(...)")... :(
16:08 svnbot6 r7529 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
16:08 svnbot6 r7529 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL::App: Removed some debugging leftover, eric256++ for noticing.
16:08 gaal ah
16:10 iblech Luckily make didn't abort after the failed runjs.pl call
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16:14 iblech putter, fglock: FYI, running make smoke-perl5 here currently
16:14 eric256_ has joined #perl6
16:14 eric256_ bahhh...stupid power....and irc thinks i'm still there. lol
16:15 iblech 18:08 < iblech> eric256: Fixed in r7529
16:15 eric256_ thanks
16:16 eric256_ trees havn't lost there leaves, so they are breaking and taking out power lines ;)
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16:30 typester is now known as sleepster
16:32 rafl e/wi 44
16:38 eric256_ much better.
16:39 eric256_ is now known as eric256
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16:50 fglock__ putter: ping
16:50 svnbot6 r7530 | fglock++ | * perl5/Code - Currying:
16:50 svnbot6 r7530 | fglock++ |   sub x ( $a, $b ) { say "$a + $b" };  
16:50 svnbot6 r7530 | fglock++ |   $z = &x.prebind( 'a'=>1 );
16:50 svnbot6 r7530 | fglock++ |   $z( b=>2 );
16:50 svnbot6 r7530 | fglock++ | * BUG: Code.pm doesn't implement named arguments properly, so this prints Pairs instead of Values
16:51 eric256 any idea why a failing open is raising an error refering to a location in Prelude.pm ?
16:51 iblech fglock__: oooh ++ (but note that prebind is spelled assuming in P6)
16:51 iblech eric256: Probably because &open is implemented in the Prelude
16:52 fglock__ iblech: I'll fix it - thanks
16:53 eric256 string length is still length right?
16:54 PerlJam eric256: bytes for length in bytes, chars for length in chars, codes for length in codepoints, etc.
16:54 eric256 ahhh
16:54 eric256 thanks
16:54 PerlJam I think we have bytes, chars, codes, langs  but I'm not sure about the last 2 really as I never use them.
16:55 eric256 ?eval $*PROGRAM_NAME
16:55 evalbot_7530 \undef
16:55 svnbot6 r7531 | fglock++ | * perl5/Code - s/prebind/assuming/ iblech++
16:55 eric256 ?eval $*PROGRAM_NAME.perl
16:55 evalbot_7530 '\\undef'
16:56 iblech eric256: $*PROGRAM_NAME is (as well as %?CONFIG etc.) hidden in safemode
16:56 eric256 odd ... motd.p6   uses splitpath($*PROGRAM_NAME)[1];  
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16:57 eric256 bit warn .perl on it produces
16:57 eric256 *** \\MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = "", matchS
16:57 eric256 ubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
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16:57 eric256 which isn't what that program is expceting, its trying to get the directory...any ideas?  
16:57 rafl evalbot_7531: You're serializing a regex match. That's fine.
16:57 PerlJam Isn't the .perl method for generating a representation as perl code?
16:57 iblech eric256: ~$foo will get you the string
16:58 eric256 ahh... problem was perl didn't seem to ever be ~ it automaticaly
16:58 fglock__ iblech: it works with junctions too :)
16:58 rafl Or "$foo"
16:58 iblech PerlJam: It is. Extending t/builtins/perl.t.
16:58 fglock__ iblech: sub x ( $a, $b ) { say "$a + $b" };  $z = &x.assuming( 'a'=> 1|3 ); $z(b=>2)
16:59 iblech fglock__: oooh! Does vanilla Pugs support this too?
17:00 fglock__ iblech: I implemented it in perl5/Code.pm - but it is quite simple <15 lines
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17:00 eric256 my $progdir = splitpath($*PROGRAM_NAME)[1] || '.';  
17:00 svnbot6 r7532 | iblech++ | t/builtins/perl.t: Tests for .perling rx objects. PerlJam++ eric256++
17:01 iblech fglock__: looking
17:01 eric256 doesn't work at all because its not stringifing the match
17:01 fglock__ iblech: please note that there is a bug in named args in p5, so the results are a bit weird
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17:02 iblech eric256: Hm? "a" ~~ rx:P5{b} || "foo" seems to work
17:02 iblech fglock__: nod
17:04 eric256 could it be something with the File::Spec module? the line i posted leaves '$progdir' eq ''
17:04 eric256 so i added a line below it $prodir = '.' unless ~$progdir;  
17:04 eric256 which isn't exactly pretty
17:05 eric256 BTW: how would i clone a hash?
17:05 iblech Ah, I think I know why: Although the match is "" (empty string), it did successfully match
17:06 iblech so || chooses the LHS
17:06 eric256 hehe "" but true
17:06 iblech not sure whether this is a bug
17:06 iblech right, exactly
17:06 iblech [clone a hash] %hash.clone (but probably not yet implemented)
17:06 fglock__ iblech: yes - pugs supports it!
17:06 eric256 while it might not be a bug, it definitly is not DWIM
17:06 eric256 maybe splitpath should stringifiy before returning?
17:07 iblech eric256: I think so.
17:07 eric256 should i just leave the workaround in for now? or change File::Spec.pm?
17:08 iblech eric256: I'd fix File::Spec
17:08 fglock__ ?eval sub x ( $a, $b ) { $a + $b }; my $z = &x.assuming( 'a'=>1|2 ); $z(2|3)
17:08 evalbot_7532 3
17:09 iblech ?eval sub x ( $a, $b ) { $a + $b }; my $z = &x.assuming( 'a'=>1|2 ); $z(2|3).perl
17:09 evalbot_7532 '((3 | 4) | (4 | 5))'
17:10 PerlJam eric256: What's wrong with %a = %b;  for cloning a hash?
17:11 iblech PerlJam: %a = %b doesn't clone deeply (%b<X> = [...]; %a = %b; %a<X> = ...; %b<X> changed as well)
17:11 eric256 doesn't seem to work...well it works, but its yelling  odd number of elements
17:11 eric256 actualy they are doing.  my %copy = hash %x;
17:11 eric256 ?eval my %x = (x => 1, y =>2); my %copy = hash %x;
17:11 evalbot_7532 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
17:12 iblech ?eval my %x = (x => 1, y =>2); my %copy = %h
17:12 evalbot_7532 Error: Undeclared variable: "%h"
17:12 iblech ?eval my %x = (x => 1, y =>2); my %copy = %x
17:12 evalbot_7532 {('x' => 1), ('y' => 2)}
17:12 * eric256 scratches his head
17:12 iblech The extra hash() should not be necessary
17:12 eric256 k...dunno why they had it in the first place ;)
17:12 eric256 not even sure they realy need a copy in this spot
17:14 PerlJam iblech: so .clone() is a recursive copy?  i.e., it call .clone() on all the elements of the data structure until it hits the leaves?
17:15 iblech PerlJam: Yep.
17:16 geoffb morning, all . . .
17:16 svnbot6 r7533 | eric256++ | Fixed typos in motd examples, and strigified output of File::Spec::Win32::splitpath()
17:16 iblech Evening, geoffb :)
17:17 geoffb How have you been, iblech?
17:17 iblech fglock__: Implemented assuming in PIL2JS :)
17:17 fglock__ iblech: cool!
17:17 iblech geoffb: Quite good, hurray for 6.2.10 :)
17:18 geoffb good, and: Oh YEAH!
17:18 evalbot_7532 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:18 geoffb And cool that PIL2JS is getting assuming, btw
17:18 evalbot_7534 has joined #perl6
17:18 * eric256 realy isn't karma whoring, just forgot that SVN doesn't go up the tree from where you issue the command. ;)
17:19 iblech geoffb: 4 lines :) (but there're probably bugs WRT slurpy hashes/arrays in there)
17:19 svnbot6 r7534 | eric256++ | Strigified output of File::Spec::Win32::splitpath()
17:19 svnbot6 r7535 | eric256++ | Strigified output of File::Spec::Unix::splitpath()
17:19 geoffb iblech, cool!  nodnod
17:19 svnbot6 r7536 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: &assuming!
17:19 svnbot6 r7536 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS.pm: Added lib6/ to the sub-pugs's @INC, so I don't have to type "make"
17:19 svnbot6 r7536 | iblech++ |   all the time.
17:19 svnbot6 r7536 | iblech++ | * Prelude::JS::Code: Implemented (a simple form of) &assuming.
17:20 fglock__ iblech: same problem in p5, I used a *@_ signature
17:20 iblech fglock__: Yep, exactly.
17:21 autrijus oooh assuming!
17:23 geoffb autrijus, thanks for posting good comments to /. while I was slacking with the family yesterday . . .
17:23 evalbot_7534 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:23 autrijus geoffb: well, I couldn't stay up long enough to track the discussion... although it went pretty well
17:23 evalbot_7536 has joined #perl6
17:23 autrijus the release note got +4 informative so I'm happy
17:24 geoffb autrijus++
17:24 autrijus I'm less happy about the goatse thing on my wikipedia page.
17:24 autrijus but well, c'est la vie.
17:24 geoffb autrijus, no kidding
17:24 geoffb There's always that fraction of a percent of people.
17:24 autrijus it's my fault of redirecting autrijus.org to wikipedia anyway.
17:24 autrijus but why it could've stayed up for 6 hours without somebody fixing it is beyond me.
17:24 geoffb On a planet this big, one in a million means 6,000 people . . . .
17:24 autrijus nodnod
17:25 elmex elmex++
17:25 perlbot What kind of idiot karmas himself?  Your kind of idiot!
17:25 geoffb Well, despite the microwave/internet generation expectation, things aren't always instant, sadly
17:26 * geoffb wants the chicken cooker from Fifth Element
17:26 * elmex wants the chicken from Fifth Element :)
17:26 * autrijus wants the Fifth Element :)
17:26 geoffb heh
17:26 elmex ok, rooted ;)
17:27 * autrijus pwnerz
17:27 elmex * does evaluate it's operand as if it was written 'literally' ?
17:27 autrijus elmex: hrm?
17:27 elmex well, the '*' operator in perl
17:27 elmex 6
17:28 elmex (i'm following the pair semantics discussion on perl6 mailinglist)
17:28 iblech elmex: my @a = ($foo, $bar, $baz); foo(*@a) is same as foo($foo, $bar, $baz)
17:28 autrijus okay. time to 1)work on eurooscon talks, 2)get pneuma transcribed to -BPIL2, and 3)write up some documentation for $work
17:28 autrijus mmm lightning talk submission deadline for euroscon is today.
17:28 elmex iblech: yes, but what does '*' do?
17:29 geoffb elmex, it's saying, expand this container into several arguments, rather than passing a ref to the container
17:29 elmex geoffb: ah, thanks
17:29 geoffb np
17:29 elmex now i understand very much perl6 very much better
17:30 Khisanth so that is why it's a *
17:30 eric256 could someone try running cribbage_scoring.p6 in examples....its giving me a weird error, i think its a parse error of some sort
17:31 autrijus because it resembles a "splat" when you stomp into a container and make it scatter around
17:31 Khisanth yeah :)
17:31 Khisanth who came up with that?
17:32 autrijus larry I think, but it may be imported from ruby
17:32 wolverian and ** is "stop on it twice"
17:32 wolverian er, stomp
17:32 eric256 ** = stomp on it with both feet ;)
17:32 autrijus eric256: look at line 6
17:32 eric256 lol. thanks
17:32 * eric256 learns to *read* before asking stupid questions
17:33 wolverian oh, I'm starting a programmer's editor project in perl6
17:33 wolverian if anyone is interested feel free to mail me at [email@hidden.address]
17:34 wolverian (well, not promising actual progress, but hey, it's fun)
17:34 Khisanth yet another editor?
17:34 PerlJam wolverian: Just emulate autrijus and interested people will show up
17:34 geoffb Interested, yes.  Can contribute any tuits whatsoever, sadly no.  If you make any progress, let us know, it would be fun to try ou
17:34 wolverian Khisanth, its name is currently 'none'
17:34 eric256 is there a p6 editor already?   hmmm i need a p6 highlighter for Context ;)
17:34 wolverian not yae :)
17:34 wolverian now, have to go, later :)
17:34 Khisanth "yeah" would be better
17:35 Khisanth it will create some confusing conversations!
17:35 PerlJam yaep
17:35 PerlJam :)
17:35 Khisanth p?
17:36 PerlJam yet another editor project
17:44 rep is now known as reppie
17:44 reppie is now known as rep
17:46 nnunley has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
17:47 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); @x.map:{$_++};
17:47 evalbot_7536 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
17:47 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); @x.map:{$_ +1};
17:47 evalbot_7536 (2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
17:47 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); @x = @x.map:{$_ +1};
17:47 evalbot_7536 [2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
17:49 wilx` has joined #perl6
17:50 iblech eric256: IIRC a pugsbug causes that your first ?eval doesn't work (it does work in PIL2JS, FYI), see t/builtins/lists/mutating_listops.t
17:50 vladtz has joined #perl6
17:52 PerlJam btw, that reminds me ... at least in my version of pugs, this generates an error:  my %h = map { $_ => 1 } @stuff;    now I know why and I know of at least one way to fix it, but this is a relatively common idiom I think.  Surely little things like this are bound to cause friction in the p5 crowd.
17:52 eric256 yea i was trying to get inf_lazy_list.p6 to work...but it is broken beyond my abilities or knowledge ;)
17:53 geoffb (from backlog:) what is NIH in ingy_ context?
17:54 eric256 monty python skit
17:54 PerlJam geoffb: Not Invented Here.
17:54 PerlJam :-)
17:54 eric256 or that. ;)
17:54 geoffb Knew of those expansions, just didn't know what ingy_ and autrijus were on about . . . you never know with those two
17:56 iblech PerlJam: notabug -- { ... => ... } is taken as hashref constructor. You've to disambiguate: {; ... => ... } or { ... => ...; } or { (... => ...) }
17:57 PerlJam iblech: I understand.  It still rankles a little bit.
17:57 thomason has joined #perl6
17:58 eric256 would @stuff.map:{ $_ => 1} work?
17:58 dada has quit IRC ("it happened again")
17:59 eric256 nope.
17:59 eric256 my %x = map { $x, 1 } @stuff; works....but doesn't seem right
18:00 iblech eric256: It should -- :{...} always introduces a slurpy block (which isa Code, never a Hash)
18:00 eric256 doesn't though
18:01 PerlJam Well, that's a pugsbug then
18:01 Khisanth so my %h = map :{ $_ => 1 } @stuff; would be ok?
18:01 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); my %x = @s.map:{$_ => 1};
18:01 evalbot_7536 Error: cannot cast from VList [VList [VStr "perl6",VInt 1]] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
18:01 PerlJam Khisanth: should be.
18:01 Khisanth PerlJam: well then the : seems pretty minor
18:02 thomason newbie q: has anybody encountered 'Can't exec "./Setup": No such file or directory at util/build_pugs.pl line 49'?
18:02 eric256 lunch &
18:02 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
18:02 PerlJam Khisanth: almost all of the ways to tell perl the block is a code block rather than a hash ref seem pretty minor if you ask me.  Except perhaps  %h = map sub { $_ => 1 } @stuff;
18:03 xerox has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:04 iblech thomason: Hm, shouldn't happen. Could you nopaste the output of "perl Makefile.PL; make"?
18:04 thomason aye
18:04 * Khisanth will just wait for "Learning Perl 5th edition" :)
18:04 thomason nopaste?
18:04 thomason hrm, doesn't work here
18:04 iblech perlbot nopaste
18:04 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
18:04 thomason ah
18:06 pasteling "thomason" at 169.230.87.20 pasted "build failure" (157 lines, 10.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13608
18:08 autrijus Khisanth: surely it needs to be "6th edition"
18:08 iblech thomason: Ah. Your GHC installation seems to lack the Distribution.Simple module, I think
18:08 autrijus thomason: your ghc has no cabal.
18:08 autrijus you sure it is 6.4+?
18:09 thomason ah
18:09 thomason Glasgow Haskell Compiler, Version 6.4.1, for Haskell 98, compiled by GHC version 6.4
18:09 thomason stock gentoo build
18:09 geoffb thomason, what distro?
18:09 geoffb Someone had said that some distros package cabal separately
18:09 thomason gentoo unstable
18:09 Khisanth autrijus: but 4th edition is suppose to the the last one for p5!
18:09 thomason ah, yup, cabal is a separate package
18:09 thomason thanks
18:09 geoffb Khisanth, when is 4th due?
18:09 geoffb np
18:11 Khisanth isn't 4th already out? :)
18:11 geoffb Speaking of which, I wonder when the next perl build is going to flow through to etch . . . last I checked it was blocking stuff
18:11 autrijus mm bbiab.
18:11 Khisanth http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail​/-/0596101058/103-0819090-4831010?v=glance :)
18:11 geoffb Oh, duh, I thought you'd said Programming Perl
18:14 geoffb dammit, it is just moronic for a package to be available in debian oldstable, stable, and unstable, but not in testing
18:16 stevan autrijus: ping
18:16 stevan howdy geoffb, everyone
18:16 geoffb Grrr, I love Debian's pro-portability attitude and all, but holding up something huge like perl based on failed arm builds rankles
18:16 Khisanth I guess Programming Perl 4th editio nwill cover perl6 :)
18:16 geoffb howdy, stevan
18:16 stevan geoffb: nice article/blog :)
18:16 geoffb stevan, why thank you!  :-)
18:17 stevan you are now the official Pugs scribe :)
18:17 geoffb The /. post has made it far and away the most popular thing I've ever posted
18:17 geoffb stevan, gee, no pressure or anything.  :-)
18:17 fglock__ hi stevan
18:17 stevan geoffb: no, none at all ;)
18:17 stevan hey fglock__
18:18 stevan I saw the currying stuff in the backlog,.. very nice
18:18 fglock__ :)
18:18 * stevan has been reading too much LISP lately,.. have to fight the urge to switch .......
18:18 geoffb yes, fglock__++ and iblech++ for currying
18:19 stevan well (Haskell Curry)++ and (Alonzo Church)++ too
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ | t/subroutines/currying.t: Fixed the test:
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ |     sub foo (+$a) {...}
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ |     foo 42;       # should fail
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ |     sub foo (?$a) {...}
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ |     foo 42;       # ok
18:20 svnbot6 r7537 | iblech++ |     foo a => 42;  # ok too
18:20 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
18:21 iblech Night, Aankhen`` :)
18:21 Aankhen`` G'night.
18:21 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("PEOPLE EQUALS SCRIPT [Time wasted online: 2hrs 35mins 31secs]")
18:21 iblech And hi stevan :)
18:21 stevan hey iblech, long time no see
18:23 * iblech searches the lastest JS smoke for a not yet implemented feature he could implement
18:23 geoffb :-)
18:24 evalbot_7536 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:24 leo__ autrijus: ping
18:24 evalbot_7537 has joined #perl6
18:25 geoffb leo__, he's around, but not instantly, as (last I saw) he was doing more last-minute talk writing
18:25 Juerd Please, if someone disagrees with your proposal, do more than repeat the proposal.
18:26 geoffb I'm going to assume you're referring to something on p6l, Juerd?
18:27 Juerd I've read "no, in this proposal, ..." too many times now. These posts aren't trying to add to it or further specify, they are meant for change.
18:27 Juerd Yes
18:27 Juerd The pair thread
18:27 Juerd I like the underlying idea very much, but discussion is killed by repetition, and I hate that.
18:27 Juerd But that's not something to discuss on the list
18:29 geoffb sigh . . . and that's why I rarely read mailing lists any more
18:30 evalbot_7537 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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18:30 Juerd Very few people are good at discussing things online
18:31 Juerd I wish I were part of those few, but I can try
18:31 svnbot6 r7538 | stevan++ | Perl6-MetaModel - just removing drop shadows, they are so early 90s
18:31 svnbot6 r7539 | vladtz++ | Script to annotate a tests.yml with older versions.
18:31 svnbot6 r7539 | vladtz++ | This will make it easy to find places where the sources are in flux.
18:31 autrijus leo__: pong
18:31 leo__ meeting
18:31 autrijus oh yes, meeting!
18:32 Juerd Speaking of meeting - who will be at the extra amsterdam.pm meeting the 20th?
18:32 geoffb stevan, what do you use to create your diagrams?
18:33 iblech stevan: According to the file extension, graffle
18:34 iblech Juerd: re (p6l post from you) "Which leaves us with no basic datastructure that can hold both positional and named arguments." -- right, this is why we need luqui's tuple proposal, see http://svn.openfoundry.org/​pugs/docs/notes/theory.pod
18:34 rantanplan_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:35 Juerd iblech: I think that then I don't understand the tuple proposal :)
18:35 iblech iblech: Basically, a tuple is a data structure which can hold positional args, named args, slurpy blocks etc.
18:35 evalbot_7538 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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18:35 iblech And *$tuple will DWIM. Examples:
18:36 iblech my $tuple = (a => 1, (b => 2));
18:36 Juerd I see
18:36 iblech foo *$tuple;  # named arg "a", positional pair (b => 2)
18:36 Juerd It's scary to have special syntax on the RHS of assignment, based on the type of the LHS.
18:36 Juerd I'd prefer this to be in the constructor, which is of course already a call, and thus suited.
18:37 Juerd Hm, what is a tuple anyway? Is it a type?
18:37 Juerd Created by syntax?
18:37 iblech You mean like my $tuple = Tuple.new(a => 1, (b => 2))? I'd like this too
18:37 iblech Yep.
18:38 iblech But tuple are not special until splatted -- so you can, for example, store tuples in arrays etc.
18:39 Juerd It's vague to me how tuples are declared, defined...
18:39 cognominal autrijus, I /msged obra as a question for #parrotsketch  but he said to ask here "can we use pge from pugs with Perl6 syntax?"
18:39 iblech Under luqui's current proposal, my $tuple = (42,) creates a tuple, $tuple.isa(Tuple) then.
18:39 stevan geoffb: it is a Mac OSX app called OmniGraffle
18:39 Juerd iblech: Because of the comma?
18:39 autrijus cognominal: you mean {} callback in pge?
18:40 geoffb stevan, yeah, with iblech's hint, I googled.
18:40 Juerd iblech: i.e. the comma in scalar context is a tuple constructor?
18:40 iblech Juerd: Yep. But, as you said above, this conflicts with , as being the list/array constructor
18:40 cognominal autrijus: I don't know what you meant, I meant just using perl6 regexen
18:40 stevan autrijus: when you have a moment I would like to discuss eigenclasses with you
18:40 autrijus cognominal: can you speak in code? :)
18:40 geoffb cognominal, if you
18:40 Juerd iblech: I have to think about this :)
18:40 autrijus cognominal: you can use /...p6rule.../ in pugs already
18:40 Juerd iblech: Thanks for further explaining
18:41 geoffb cognominal, nevermind, autrijus just said what I was going to
18:41 autrijus stevan: okay, wake for the parrotsketch to finish (in half a hour)
18:41 cognominal autrijus: but does it use pge?
18:41 autrijus cognominal: sure does.
18:41 cognominal oki, thx
18:41 stevan autrijus: ok, sounds good
18:42 iblech Juerd: No problem :)
18:42 iblech Juerd: I'll reply to your p6l post, so the rest of p6l is informed as well
18:48 PerlJam Are Tuples officially part of p6 now?
18:49 iblech PerlJam: At least @Larry hasn't posted a "tuples are official P6 now" message to p6l
18:53 autrijus ...and even if they did, until they make into the svn repo for Synopses, that is still not canonical
18:53 autrijus (by definition, canonical = part of canon)
18:55 geoffb Is the P6::Bible still suffering from severe lag WRT p6l, or is that fixed now?
18:56 PerlJam autrijus: what's the topic of parrotsketch today?
18:56 autrijus ingy_: make some of us comaintainer of P6::Bible?
18:56 autrijus PerlJam: http://www.parrotcode.org/misc/parr​otsketch-logs/irclog.parrotsketch-2​00510/irclog.parrotsketch.20051010
18:57 PerlJam ah, excellent.  that might just save me from even more IRC-induced madness
18:57 PerlJam Or it might encourage me to join the channel and do slightly more than lurk  ;)
19:01 JAPJuggler has joined #perl6
19:02 iblech Hm. How can I write chr(12) ~ "3" in a double-quoted string using backslash escapes? "\123" does, obviously, not work
19:03 iblech I seem to recall that "\d[12]3" should work, but unsure...
19:04 Khisanth \0123?
19:04 iblech This includes the 3 again...
19:05 iblech I want "\12" ~ "3", but without the need for ~ and two strings...
19:05 geoffb ?eval "{\012}3"
19:05 evalbot_7539 '{}3'
19:05 geoffb Well, that's interesting
19:05 geoffb ?eval "{ \012 }3"
19:05 evalbot_7539 '{  }3'
19:06 geoffb ?eval "{ 1 + 2 } 3"
19:06 evalbot_7539 '3 3'
19:06 geoffb ?eval "{ 1 + 2 }3"
19:06 evalbot_7539 '33'
19:06 Khisanth aren't you trying to get "<form feed char>3" ?
19:06 wilx` is now known as wilx
19:06 iblech Khisanth: I am. (But the 12 and 3 are only examples)
19:07 geoffb I'm thinking there's a bug with parsing "{ ... }"
19:07 geoffb Or building the string from it, at least
19:07 Khisanth ?eval "\0123"
19:07 evalbot_7539 '{'
19:07 Khisanth ...
19:08 Khisanth where the heck did the { come from?
19:08 iblech ?eval chr(0123)
19:08 evalbot_7539 Error:  unexpected ( or "c" expecting program 0100 is not octal in perl6 any more, use 0o100 instead.
19:08 iblech ?eval chr(0o123)
19:08 evalbot_7539 'S'
19:08 iblech ?eval chr(0d123)
19:08 evalbot_7539 '{'
19:08 Khisanth iblech: hmm well I am expecting p5 behavior there
19:09 geoffb ?eval "{ 0d12 }3"
19:09 evalbot_7539 '123'
19:09 geoffb ?eval "{ chr(12) }3"
19:09 evalbot_7539 '3'
19:10 geoffb ?eval "{ qq{\012} }3"
19:10 evalbot_7539 '3'
19:10 iblech geoffb: Thought so too, but no! {...} in double-quoted strings starts a closure which will later be interpolated. \012 in normal expression context evaluates to a reference to 12. (But references to scalars shouldn't automatically deref, but that's another topic.)
19:10 geoffb TIMTOWTDI, and they all suck
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19:11 geoffb iblech, sure, but "{ ... }" should not result in the { } being in the output string
19:11 iblech geoffb: Oh, right!
19:11 iblech geoffb: Write a test please? :)
19:12 geoffb iblech, not right now.  I'm having severe problems concentrating on $work as it is.
19:12 geoffb -Ofun it is most definitely NOT
19:12 iblech geoffb: Sure, I'll write it then
19:12 geoffb thx muchly
19:12 iblech np
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19:19 svnbot6 r7540 | iblech++ | New t/syntax/parsing_braces_in_strings.t: "{\01;42}" should eq "42", not "{;42}".
19:20 autrijus okay, got two topics for Euro Oscon lightning talk
19:20 autrijus 1. "Visual Basic rocks!"
19:20 autrijus 2. "Larry was a mariner"
19:21 geoffb 3. "Autrijus is punchy!"
19:21 autrijus :)
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19:22 dduncan go for it!
19:22 dduncan while you're at it, demonstrate how fun it is to implement perl 6 in visual basic
19:22 autrijus dduncan: good, I'll do that.
19:22 autrijus the 2. would be a full adaptation/parody of "Earendil was a mariner"... easily my fav poem
19:23 autrijus and allison has agreed to do it with me :)
19:23 dduncan and fun is had by all
19:24 autrijus verily.
19:24 dduncan aye
19:24 geoffb :-)
19:24 eric256 has left
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19:26 svnbot6 r7541 | iblech++ | Pugs.Pretty: Don't output evil bytes in .perlifications. Instead, use
19:26 svnbot6 r7541 | iblech++ | escapes (\t, \n, etc.) or {...}: "\123".perl eq '"{chr 123}"'.
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19:32 svnbot6 r7542 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Operators: Implemented +| +& +^ +< +>.
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19:49 stevan autrijus: ping
19:51 autrijus stevan: pong. I need another 3 min or so to wax poetry on the flattery of VB
19:51 autrijus after that I'll be free
19:52 autrijus (so you can type ahead)
19:52 stevan autrijus: ok,.. since it is such a good cause :)
19:52 autrijus of course!
19:52 Juerd geoffb: The lag is huge.
19:53 Juerd geoffb: But there are also many things that still need decisions
19:53 evalbot_7542 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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19:53 Juerd geoffb: Since some of these yet unmade decisions are very important, it'd probably be a waste of time updating the bible as much as needed, before they are made.
19:54 gruber has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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19:55 svnbot6 r7543 | iblech++ | * Makefile.PL: Unbreak "make haddock" (mkdir dist/doc/html can't work if !-d dist/doc).
19:55 svnbot6 r7543 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: PIL2JS.pm: Use File::Temp for greater security (we don't want Pugs to
19:55 svnbot6 r7543 | iblech++ |   be listed on securitytracker).
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19:57 geoffb Juerd, important as in "Will change a whole bunch of existing things" or as in "Will add a lot"?
19:57 geoffb Because if the former, updating now would not be a waste . . .
19:57 Juerd will change few but omnipresent things :)
19:57 geoffb er,
19:57 Juerd latter :)
19:57 geoffb "if the latter"
19:57 geoffb bah
19:57 geoffb hmmm
19:57 Juerd As time and projects progress, the more subtle issues need to be solved
19:58 Juerd Often, it turns out that a change has impact in several areas
19:58 Juerd Still I think the design is very solid, as the basic ground rules have changed very little over time.
19:58 autrijus stevan: done.
19:58 Juerd Most of the big changes are syntactic.
19:58 * eric256 thought TSa bowed out of the mailing list? ;)
19:59 stevan autrijus: excellent
19:59 stevan so, eigenclasses
19:59 geoffb Fair enough.  But I'm feeling partial deadlock in the P6 aether, and that's disturbing the force . . . to mix several metaphors
19:59 Juerd eric256: I thought so too, but in the same message he continued discussion
19:59 svnbot6 r7544 | iblech++ | * Pugs.AST.Internals: Pairs are stringified as "$key\t$value" now, per
19:59 svnbot6 r7544 | iblech++ |   http://www.nntp.perl.org/grou​p/perl.perl6.language/23224:
19:59 svnbot6 r7544 | iblech++ |     Also that a pair ($x => $y) stringifies to "$x\t$y"
19:59 svnbot6 r7544 | iblech++ | * t/data_types/pair.t: unTODOed several tests.
19:59 stevan autrijus: in order to have inheritable class methods, we basically need to create an eigenclass for each class
19:59 Juerd eric256: So perhaps he was using a different metaphor, and we interpreted his words in a way that suited us best ;)
20:00 eric256 the discussions on p6l seem to be gonig in circles, i can't follow them to save my life. ;)
20:00 stevan because they need to be in a parallel hierarchy to the normal classes
20:00 eric256 Juerd...could definitly be, i hadn't thought of that.  languages barries often do crop up in odd places ;)
20:00 autrijus yes.
20:00 stevan all attempts to create them "on demand" lead to much silliness in terms of trying to keep the inhieritence in order
20:00 Juerd geoffb: We need a clear definition of the dark side in order to avoid it, and that has been lacking :)
20:01 geoffb eric256, the circular discussions are part of the partial deadlock I referred to
20:01 stevan however, this gets a little messy when you introduce subclasses of Class
20:01 Juerd eric256: Some things go in circles, but those things are discussed mostly by the same people again and again.
20:01 stevan for reasons we discussed before
20:01 eric256 need like czar of the list...this is done, this is the answer.  shut up and move on. ;)  
20:02 stevan however, I think that behavior can be specified in a sane way
20:02 Juerd eric256: There are still important new arguments for several sides of the diamond, so I want to encourage continuing trying to figure things out.
20:02 Juerd stevan: You must be careful not to leak too much of the metamodel back into the thing it is a meta above (around)
20:02 eric256 yea it just gets soo confused. then people go back to earlier proposals... well if this works then great.  from the outside it looks an awful lot like a townhall meeting
20:03 autrijus stevan: so you are still thinking ondemand creation?
20:03 stevan so the questions I have are 1) does this all sound good (yes, I need validation :) and 2) should all object instances get an eigenclass? or should those be on demand
20:03 Juerd stevan: Sometimes it can be good to draw a line. Do we *need* a certain feature, or is it just nice to have. If the latter, confusion is a good reason to keep it out.
20:03 eric256 lots of posturing and side arguments that have little to do with the actual topic ;)  if it works then i'll just watch blessfully ;)
20:03 pdcawley has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:03 autrijus stevan: I think all class objects want an eigenclass no matter they have class meth or not -- larry said as much in A12
20:04 stevan Juerd: I have adopted a "everything and the kitchen sink" policy on the meta-model, however, this does not mean we expose it all
20:04 autrijus stevan: for objects I'm less sure. I _think_ we can get by of creating them on demand if we can figure out a sane semantics; but then, it should behave as-if they are created a priori, no?
20:04 Juerd eric256: I agree that more decisions need to be made. Perhaps Larry should give up some control if he doesn't have the time to do this himself.
20:04 stevan autrijus: they don't inherit,.. so on demand is simple
20:05 eric256 even if they are the wrong decisions they can always be changed in a month....but them i'm a progress over planning kind of guy most the time
20:05 stevan however, this just means I need to explicitly code it to only create for a class, and for a instance be on demand
20:05 Juerd eric256: I have to add to that, in all honesty, that I say this partially because I think some of the recent decisions that _have_ been made have disturbed me greatly.
20:05 Juerd eric256: It's just much easier to work with bricks than with playdough.
20:06 stevan autrijus: explicit eigenclass creation fits nicely into Class::CREATE  
20:06 stevan since that is where other magic happens too
20:06 Juerd (re progress over planning)
20:06 autrijus stevan: right, and I think it's not a big problem, as only the Class Class has eager eigencreation by default
20:07 autrijus stevan: so it's contained in one place
20:07 autrijus as you said
20:07 eric256 Juerd: yea. it seems like  until (done) { decide; test_on_pugs; re evalutate decesion based on experience rather than theory; }
20:07 stevan excellent :)
20:07 stevan I will add that in this week then
20:07 stevan how goes the haskellification of the mm?
20:08 Juerd eric256: Perhaps a feature(idea) freeze would be in order
20:08 autrijus stevan: release and flu are both past, so that is the next thing on my plate tomorrow
20:09 Juerd Work out the current issues first, even if we have ideas that might solve multiple problems at once (because really, most ideas don't, even though they are thought to do)
20:09 autrijus stevan: though demagicalizing pairs is important too (but that can fit in with container haskellification)
20:09 Juerd I have some ideas that I don't release to p6l, because the list is too distracted already
20:09 Juerd But sometimes I feel forced to do so, because a certain item has come up
20:09 autrijus ...I confess I only read p6l thru weekly summary.
20:10 autrijus (or on specific threads.)
20:10 autrijus but a daily scan proved to be very costly.
20:10 eric256 Juerd: or at least a summary of all positions inovled...its doubly complex because through a thread peopls ideas evolve...makes it near impossible sometimes
20:10 Juerd I have one very controversial idea that I fear I might have to release soon :)
20:10 geoffb autrijus, I second that
20:10 stevan I third that
20:10 autrijus nothingmuch is not here, otherwise he'd forth that
20:10 Juerd eric256: Yes
20:10 eric256 lol
20:11 geoffb heh
20:11 Juerd Which brings us to: the summaries
20:11 geoffb So it does
20:11 Juerd I think the summaries too often just explain what is discussed rather than the different sides
20:11 autrijus yeah. perl.com no longer sponsors them?
20:11 Juerd They are abstracts rather than summaries, sometimes.
20:12 geoffb Juerd, too true, especially of late
20:12 Juerd To really know what the different possibilities are, you still need to read entire threads
20:12 Juerd I can understand this for some of the highly theoretical threads
20:12 eric256 i think it realy just comes down to needing someone to make decesion.  i mean there will always be people that disagree with how things are being done. the current discussions wont end until someone just gives up. ;)
20:12 autrijus eric256: exactly.
20:13 autrijus normally $Larry, or damian, plays such an arbiter
20:13 Juerd Does that mean we don't have normality at this moment? :)
20:13 autrijus it is implied, yes.
20:14 * eric256 keeps forgeting its snowing till he looks over his shoulder. hehe
20:14 Juerd (z z 9 pl. z a :))
20:14 autrijus stevan: so, eigeness. is there something on the user level (i.e. in t/) that you'd like to add still?
20:14 autrijus stevan: because I'd like to quickcheck, or at least hunit, it first
20:15 stevan autrijus: something to add?
20:15 evalbot_7543 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:15 autrijus stevan: as in, universe-side behaviour changes for the eigeness model
20:15 autrijus instead of metaverse-side
20:16 evalbot_7544 has joined #perl6
20:16 autrijus or is 36 complete?
20:16 stevan autrijus: oh no,.. it is horribly broken at the moment
20:16 stevan it keeps creating eigenclasses for each method
20:16 autrijus whew. good :)
20:16 autrijus indeed
20:16 Juerd Why is evalbot reconnecting all the time?
20:17 autrijus stevan: though... that is not in the test itself
20:17 geoffb Juerd, rebuilds after each commit,
20:17 stevan I had to back up and do a Mini-MetaModel version, to get me head around all details
20:17 iblech Juerd: To make the revnum easily visible
20:17 geoffb and the revnum is part of the nixk
20:17 geoffb er nick
20:17 autrijus stevan: ok, that sounds sane.
20:17 Juerd geoffb, iblech: ah
20:17 geoffb I suppose it could just change nick rather than reconnecting
20:17 autrijus stevan: I'll start modeling pneuma again tomorrow and let you know if I run into anything bad.
20:17 Juerd Is there no way to keep the socket?
20:17 Juerd As irssi does?
20:17 Juerd (See irssi's source code for /upgrade)
20:18 stevan autrijus: 36 needs more tests
20:18 Juerd Restart with a newer pugs, but keep the socket around, then do /nick)
20:18 autrijus stevan: *nod*
20:18 Juerd That's less distracting on IRC and keeps attention from irc opers away from feather :)
20:18 stevan I will probably port the ones from the Mini_MetaModel_w_Eigenclasses
20:18 Juerd Who maintains the bot?
20:18 stevan and add some more too
20:18 iblech Juerd: The problem is that there doesn't exist any IPC currently in Pugs
20:18 iblech Juerd: luqui *IIRC*
20:19 autrijus stevan: hm, or do you think I can start modeling MiniMetaModel_w_eigenclasses first?
20:19 Juerd iblech: Not needed... All you really need is a low level exec and a way to regain a handle based on fd to make it happen
20:19 Juerd iblech: Or... A very simple irc bouncer :)
20:19 Juerd (Why do I think of the hard solutions before I think of the very easy ones?)
20:20 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
20:20 * stevan just remembered another issue
20:20 eric256 couldn't the IRC bot just call an external script to run snippets?
20:20 iblech Juerd: Yep, but %*SIG<USR1> = { my $rev = get_cur_rev(); $bot.nick($rev) } would probably be easiest :)
20:20 Juerd iblech: Surely it has to actually RUN on that revision?
20:20 stevan autrijus: the eigenclasses tend to make $?CLASS and $?PACKAGE a little weird,.. however, i think that can be easily overcome
20:20 Juerd iblech: Or is ?eval not in synch with it? :)
20:21 iblech eric256: It does. evalbot.p6 (IRC) calls evalhelper.p5 (resource limits), which calls pugs
20:21 stevan autrijus: I would stick with pneuma, etc... the eigenclass change is fairly minimal
20:21 autrijus stevan: okay, good
20:21 eric256 lol. so no need for the actual bot to be on the newest version at all
20:21 Juerd Ohh
20:21 Juerd Then yes, a /nick would suffice.
20:21 autrijus stevan: I think the "allomorphism" mentioned in A12 already would calse some ambiguity with $?CLASS
20:22 iblech eric256: Yep, the revnum is purely for informational purposes. Even if the bot did not restart, ?eval would still run the latest Pugs
20:22 autrijus stevan: but as long as we make sure that each eClass for iClass reflect back to the iClass and not the cClass for the iClass, it should be fine
20:22 stevan :D
20:22 stevan iClass connected to the eClass the eClass connected to the cClass ...
20:23 eric256 is the interface portion of IO pretty nailed down and your jsut working on the implementation?
20:23 stevan autrijus: once the eigenclasses are in, I will be concentrating on the MOP document, I expect that will lead to many p6l posts
20:24 autrijus stevan: good. I think we should codename 6.28.0 "stevan"
20:24 pdcawley_ What's local's name now?
20:24 * stevan is not sure that is a good idea :/
20:25 autrijus stevan: probably not, but entertaining to think about
20:25 autrijus pdcawley_: temp
20:25 pdcawley_ Good oh.
20:25 * stevan codenames all his projects "autrijus"
20:25 * pdcawley_ contemplates 'my method ARRAY::attributes {...}'
20:26 stevan lexical singleton methods?
20:26 pdcawley_ Well, not even singleton methods reallly.
20:26 pdcawley_ Just making sure that role helper methods never escape the role's scope.
20:27 pdcawley_ I suppose my multi(Scalar $thing:) {...} would do the job as well, but I kind of like the method version.
20:28 pdcawley_ or my multi method attributes(Scalar $thing) {...} or whatever it's supposed to be.
20:28 * stevan slowly backs away from pdcawley_
20:28 pdcawley_ What?
20:28 stevan just teasing
20:29 autrijus pdcawley_: "my multi" is canonical; declaring a method for a class can be done with
20:29 stevan the method approach is interesting,.. however, I think it would likely be just sugar for the multi approach
20:29 autrijus class Foo is reopened
20:29 autrijus but that can't be done lexically
20:29 autrijus so stick with multis.
20:29 * pdcawley_ points out that the Smalltalk/ruby hacker in him would just bung the helper methods on the classes in question and assume that he'll deal with any problems when they arise.
20:30 autrijus pdcawley_: but lexically?
20:30 pdcawley_ Nah, wouldn't bother with the lexically.
20:30 autrijus okay, dynamically, sure!
20:30 * stevan points to the LISP hacker in him which would just lexically redfined the method :)
20:30 pdcawley_ The 'hang on, don't let anything have a wider scope than is absolutely necessary' part of me would prefer the lexical version.
20:31 pdcawley_ stevan: Exactly.
20:31 autrijus I still can't see anything wrong with "my multi".
20:31 stevan (+ + lexical redefinintion of method)
20:31 * pdcawley_ doesn't like multis that don't dispatch on multiple arguments.
20:31 stevan autrijus: lexical redef is sexier
20:31 pdcawley_ And... what Stevan said.
20:31 * stevan declares Perl 6 the New LISP
20:32 stevan of course that is continginent on nothingmuch's Exceptuations being approved
20:32 stevan which are very much like LISP conditions
20:32 iblech putter, fglock__: FYI, new PIL-Run smoke online.
20:33 autrijus my method attributes (Scalar $thing:) { ... }
20:33 autrijus so you'd like that?
20:33 * pdcawley_ wonders if he should be feeling guilty about TSa's departure.
20:33 autrijus hm.
20:33 stevan pdcawley_: from what I hear, he left becuase of the summaries
20:33 iblech Need to sleep now, night all and happy -Ofunning! :)
20:33 stevan ;)
20:33 theorbtwo TSa departed?
20:33 autrijus iblech++ # woot!
20:33 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep &")
20:33 theorbtwo Oh, what's the subscribe address for the summeries?
20:33 pdcawley_ autrijus: Not really, I want to lexically declare a method on another class.
20:33 autrijus pdcawley_: from what I hear, he is not really left :)
20:34 autrijus pdcawley_: "Scalar" is that class
20:34 autrijus my method blah (OtherClass $self:) { ... }
20:34 pdcawley_ Then surely my method Scalar::attributes($self:) {...} makes more sense.
20:35 stevan should it be my or local?
20:35 pdcawley_ But your syntax has a pleasant weirdness to it...
20:35 autrijus I contend I agree.
20:35 stevan or temp or whatever local is now
20:35 autrijus stevan: you can use temp too, but they mean different things.
20:36 stevan ah
20:36 pdcawley_ stevan: my I think. temp scoping would mean it could escape to method called on other objects that don't do the current role.
20:37 fglock__ iblech++
20:37 wolverian hmm, I'm still confused towards item/list context versus type context
20:37 eric256 why don't they call it local instead of temp or my? ;)
20:38 autrijus wolverian: item/list contexts each carry a type
20:38 autrijus only void is typeless
20:38 autrijus ?eval want
20:38 evalbot_7544 "Scalar (Any), LValue"
20:38 autrijus ?eval ~want
20:38 evalbot_7544 "Scalar (Any), LValue"
20:38 autrijus ?eval list want
20:38 evalbot_7544 "Scalar (Any), LValue"
20:38 autrijus hrmph.
20:38 * autrijus smacks evalbot
20:38 wolverian autrijus, ohhh. that makes more sense. is want()'s return specced?
20:39 autrijus wolverian: yes, S06.
20:39 wolverian thanks :)
20:40 wolverian oh. hm. how do I inspect what _type_ is wanted?
20:40 wolverian (or is that possible?)
20:40 wolverian or is that carried by the context information returned by want(), as shown by evalbot?
20:44 wolverian hmm. pugs's want() does not carry type information. right.
20:44 wolverian but it should.
20:45 wolverian things are clearer now. sorry for being so slow. :)
20:46 autrijus er it does
20:46 wolverian oh
20:47 wolverian except it's always Any
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20:47 autrijus mm, weird.
20:47 * pdcawley_ giggles at a post by luqui in which he takes the monte carlo approach to spelling by using 'affect' and 'effect' as nouns meaning the same thing. Presumably the theory being  that at least one of 'em must be correct.
20:48 wolverian oh, neat; S06 says gather is lazy.
20:48 wolverian I didn't realise that's official. :)
20:49 eric256 hey sometimes its hard to rememerb which is wich, and 50% wrong is better than 100% wrong ;)
20:51 * pdcawley_ decides not to make a crack about it in the summary.
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20:59 Juerd wolverian: gather shouldn't be lazy by default!
20:59 Juerd wolverian: only if what's inside is pure, it can be
20:59 Juerd But this has been mentioned before
21:06 cognominal trying to install hs-plugins... with 'sh configure', I get  sh ./configure
21:06 cognominal configure: error: cannot find install-sh or install.sh in . ./.. ./../..
21:06 cognominal what am I doing wrong? I run mandriva cooker.
21:07 cognominal do I miss some magic  invocation before 'sh configure' ?
21:10 autrijus cognominal: ask #haskell dons?
21:11 cognominal oki
21:13 autrijus it's dons not don :)
21:13 autrijus afaik he is in sydney, not sicily
21:17 eric256 will use lib be builtin? or will i t be a module?
21:21 autrijus eric256: I think a module for sure, just like in pugs now
21:22 eric256 just curious because some examples don't work because they can't find the lib module
21:24 autrijus hm, you need to run with -Iblib6/lib or install pugs
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21:28 cognominal hum, I am still missing a step I get "ghc-pkg: cannot find package plugins" when running Makefile.PL
21:28 autrijus cognominal: "make register"
21:29 cognominal I tried that too
21:29 cognominal /usr/bin/perl5.8.7 -Iinc util/ghc_setup.pl register --prefix=
21:29 cognominal *** Running: ./Setup register
21:29 cognominal No description file found, please create a cabal-formatted description file with the name <pkgname>.cabal
21:29 kelan has joined #perl6
21:31 cognominal I see a Pugs.cabal.in though
21:32 autrijus oh hm, did you run Makefile.PL?
21:32 autrijus and "make"?
21:32 autrijus I mean "register" in the hs-plugins dir
21:32 autrijus not pugs
21:33 wolverian Juerd, oh, well, S06 said that.
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21:35 eric256 i had been staying away from make install....is it safe to use now?
21:36 eric256 also...is there going to be an environment variable to change the lib in perl6? seems like a pretty common need.
21:37 geoffb make install seems to be working decently as of this release, eric256
21:37 geoffb It's not perfect, but it's also not deadly, or entire-disk-spamming
21:38 eric256 okay ..../me crosses his fingers
21:41 kelan has left
21:42 geoffb [OT] What's the fastest Perl 5 data structure serializer that produces textual serializations?
21:42 dduncan something in XS probably
21:42 dduncan when you say 'textual', do you mean 'human readable'?
21:42 autrijus geoffb: svdump?
21:43 autrijus aka Devel::Peek
21:43 geoffb dduncan, yes, and diff-friendly
21:43 geoffb autrijus, hmmm, OK.  Does it have a thaw?
21:43 geoffb Or is it freeze-only?
21:44 autrijus I don't think it has a thaw
21:44 dduncan if the output is valid perl code, it can thaw itself
21:44 autrijus Data::Dumper::Streamer?
21:44 autrijus I'm not sure you'll have to bench
21:44 mugwump Data::Dumper is pretty fast compared to, eg, YAML
21:44 JAPJuggler has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:44 geoffb OK, just figured there was a pretty good chance someone here might have already done so on one of their other projects.  :-)
21:45 eric256 hmmm are there any conditions that evaluate the block before the conditional?  
21:45 geoffb mugwump, I thought that was because Perl 5 still has the lamest YAML implementation
21:45 mugwump no comment
21:45 eric256 so that $new = $lottery_numbers.pick() until $new == none(@your_numbers); would DWIM
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21:48 svnbot6 r7545 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
21:48 svnbot6 r7545 | stevan++ | * fixed the current eigenclasses so they don't keep creating
21:48 svnbot6 r7545 | stevan++ |   eigenclasses and only create one per object (on demand)
21:48 svnbot6 r7545 | stevan++ |     - added some tests for this
21:48 eric256 anyone?
21:52 cognominal autrijus, why don't you give  ftp://ftp.cse.unsw.edu.au/pub/users/do​ns/hs-plugins/hs-plugins-0.9.10.tar.gz as the place to get hs-plugins?
21:55 autrijus cognominal: I don't know, maybe it was not released then? if it works for you, please go ahead and change things
21:56 rafl gaal: ping
21:57 rafl gaal: Fresh packages for you.
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21:59 eric256 in examples/nested_loops/functional.pl  the example used a ==> which doesn't work yet, but it is easily rewritten to workd
22:00 svnbot6 r7546 | eric256++ | Changed so that the same number can't be picked twice.
22:00 eric256 should i just drop a comment in with the old version?  i think i'm not being true to his goal by fixing it. lol
22:01 autrijus drop a comment in with the old version.
22:01 eric256 k. just thought working examples are better than *right* examples...
22:04 rafl How about merging smoker.yml and config.yml?
22:04 autrijus worksforme.
22:04 autrijus gaal: sanity-p?
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22:07 eric256 are methods multi methods by default?
22:07 autrijus no I don't think so
22:07 wolverian ..and that sucks
22:08 eric256 wolverian...you mean about multi methods?
22:09 wolverian yes
22:09 wolverian I should say that I _think_ it sucks. I'm by no means certain.
22:09 eric256 i dunno. its not too bad...though you should be able to say that all methods in the class you are creating are going to be multi
22:10 eric256 class x { use multi::method;  method x () { }; method x(Int x) { } };
22:10 eric256 probably will be easy to add as a macro....are macros lexicaly bound?...food for though
22:10 eric256 thought even
22:11 autrijus macros can be lexically bound yes.
22:11 svnbot6 r7547 | eric256++ | Fixed up some changes in syntax so that the examples all work.  Tweaked functional.pm slightly for now to avoid errors because  of the lack of ==>
22:11 eric256 cool so a module like the one i just said would be easily made with macros...right?
22:11 autrijus eric256++ eric256++
22:11 autrijus eric256: yes.
22:12 eric256 sweet...do macros exist in pugs yet?
22:12 autrijus yes, the source-filter form
22:12 autrijus see t/macros
22:12 eric256 cool. thanks
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22:13 eric256 submethod trace( : Str $msg) {
22:14 eric256 does that mean something different than
22:14 eric256 submethod trace( Str $msg) {
22:16 autrijus should be the same thing.
22:16 autrijus (I think.)
22:16 eric256 hehe. first one errors.
22:16 iblechbot has quit IRC (No route to host)
22:16 eric256 ?eval submethod trace(: Str $msg) {}
22:16 evalbot_7547 Error:  unexpected "S" expecting "?", "*", "+", "++" or parameter name
22:16 autrijus oh. hm, leading colon in signatures.
22:17 autrijus ?eval sub x (:Str $x)
22:17 evalbot_7547 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting bare trait, trait or block
22:17 autrijus ?eval sub x (:Str $x) {}
22:17 evalbot_7547 undef
22:17 autrijus ?eval submethod x (:Str $x) {}
22:17 evalbot_7547 undef
22:17 autrijus ?eval submethod x (: Str $x) {}
22:17 evalbot_7547 Error:  unexpected "S" expecting "?", "*", "+", "++" or parameter name
22:17 eric256 spacing is making it mad?
22:18 autrijus apparnetly
22:18 eric256 hehe. alright. i'll just drop the : for now.  unless that causes something weird?
22:19 autrijus no, just drop it I think
22:19 eric256 done
22:23 svnbot6 r7548 | eric256++ | Fixed function signature.
22:23 evalbot_7547 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:23 Khisanth has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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22:28 geoffb .oO( Spending an hour or two refactoring is very calming . . . )
22:32 eric256 any reason $x ~~ s:perl5:g/\s*//; would hang?
22:33 autrijus er, yes.
22:33 eric256 hmmm. well its stupid...but hanging seems a bit overkill
22:33 autrijus very true
22:33 eric256 lol
22:33 geoffb PCRE-ism?
22:34 autrijus no, bad handling in Pugs.Prim.Match line 115
22:34 eric256 hehe. part of a QOTW...and thats the solution given...suprised they didn't realise what broke it..
22:35 autrijus I guess zero width match needs special care
22:35 autrijus my brain is kind of fried from flu to do this now. I'll add a note.
22:35 autrijus eric256: turn this into a test please?
22:35 autrijus let it fail and segfault.
22:36 autrijus er, hm, it hangs instead
22:36 autrijus (it segfaults here)
22:36 geoffb .oO( My $work desire for Perl 6: An HTML::Mason derivative that has decently fast component calls.  Grrr. )
22:37 Khisanth has joined #perl6
22:38 eric256 never segfaults here
22:39 eric256 lemme know what you want me to do..
22:39 autrijus I'm thinking
22:39 autrijus still turn this into a test.
22:39 autrijus I'll fix now
22:40 eric256 thanks. and sorry for finding it ;)
22:40 autrijus no, it was very important :)
22:40 autrijus I wonder why it was not uncovered earlier.
22:40 eric256 no one was stupid enough to code it that way
22:40 eric256 lol
22:40 geoffb perhaps we need more stupidity check tests.
22:41 geoffb Parsing tests for empty strings, empty blocks, extra punctuation that "shouldn't" make a difference, and so on
22:41 autrijus that reads QuickCheck, but yes.
22:42 geoffb OK, sure, but also stuff like eric256 found: stuff that could cause bad behavior, but that we should gracefully detect.
22:42 geoffb Tests that check if we have a recursion limit, for instance
22:43 autrijus *nod*
22:43 autrijus okay, fixed, I think.
22:44 autrijus eric256: test in t/rules/s_perl5.t?
22:47 eric256 how do i phrase it so it doesn't hang the test if it is still broken?
22:47 autrijus you don't, as I've fixed the bug.
22:48 eric256 ohh. okay. ;)
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22:50 rafl pugs 6.2.10 is being uploaded to Debian now. Should be in by tomorrow evening.
22:50 autrijus rafl++ rafl++ rafl++
22:51 rafl It was slower than I wanted, though. Made a mistake in putting the haskell lib into /usr/lib/haskell-packages instead of $prefix/lib. :-)
22:51 autrijus if it works it works :)
22:51 autrijus have you tried compiling test.hs?
22:51 autrijus import Pugs
22:51 autrijus main = pugsMain
22:51 autrijus with
22:51 autrijus ghc --make test.hs
22:51 geoffb rafl++ # MMmmmm, packages . . . .
22:52 Ymmv has joined #perl6
22:52 cognominal hi, Ymmv :)
22:52 autrijus greetings, variadic one :)
22:52 svnbot6 r7549 | eric256++ | Fixed more typos in some examples so they now work.
22:52 svnbot6 r7550 | eric256++ | Added test for s:perl5:g/\s*//;
22:53 meppl difficult to pronounce "ymmc"
22:53 Khisanth Your _ _ variadic?
22:53 geoffb Your Mileage May Vary
22:53 * Ymmv is lunatic, so YMMV with me :)
22:54 autrijus good, I think you'll fit in here :)
22:54 geoffb He's crazy, hand him the committer bit . . .
22:54 evalbot_7549 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:55 evalbot_7551 has joined #perl6
22:55 rafl autrijus: Some unresolved symbols. Some to altdata. -package altdata fixes them. This remains: /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/Pugs​-6.2.10/libHSPugs-6.2.10.a(Haskell.o): In function `s2kg0_dflt':
22:55 rafl : undefined reference to `SystemziEvalziHaskell_evalzu_closure'
22:56 rafl /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/Pugs​-6.2.10/libHSPugs-6.2.10.a(Haskell.o): In function `__stginit_PugsziEmbedziHaskell_':
22:56 rafl : undefined reference to `__stginit_SystemziEval_'
22:56 rafl /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/Pugs-6.2.10​/libHSPugs-6.2.10.a(Haskell.o):(.rodata+0x3c): undefined reference to `SystemziEvalziHaskell_evalzu_closure'
22:56 * PerlJam patiently waits for Pm to check in his shift-reduce parse.
22:56 autrijus -package plugins?
22:56 PerlJam er, parser
22:56 autrijus PerlJam: I tried it again in the sketch.
22:57 rafl autrijus: Fixes it. The debian package isn't compliled with hs-plugins, though. It's still not in the archive. :-(
22:57 PerlJam yeah, I saw.  He's not keen on releasing not-quite-finished work is he?
22:57 autrijus k, so no worries.
22:57 svnbot6 r7551 | autrijus++ | * saner detection for zero-width matches on s:g to kill
22:57 svnbot6 r7551 | autrijus++ |   the infinite loop as reported by eric256++.
22:57 svnbot6 r7552 | autrijus++ | * finalize Parrot embedding properly and let it flush
22:57 svnbot6 r7552 | autrijus++ |   correctly, by calling Parrot_exit at exit. leo++
22:57 eric256 ?eval my $x = "hello "; $x ~~ s:perl5:g/\s*//;
22:57 evalbot_7551 6
22:57 eric256 ?eval my $x = "hello "; $x ~~ s:perl5:g/\s+//;
22:58 evalbot_7551 1
22:58 autrijus PerlJam: yeah... but I learned that he probably really has code behind it
22:58 eric256 lol. hmmm
22:58 autrijus whenever I was not releasing something due to not-quite-finished, it means I don't have anything at all and all the throwaway prototypes has been thrown away :)
22:58 PerlJam heh
22:59 autrijus (sad but true)
22:59 eric256 there we go....tested 95% of examples and they all work now. ;)
22:59 PerlJam Pm is probably similar.  In the time i've known him, there are things that take a long time to complete because he's thinking about them.  When he's finally thought enough to actually do something, the bulk of the code materializes within a day or two.
22:59 eric256 a couple long running ones or ones that needs perl6 rules didn't get tested in case someone else wants to look at those. ;)
23:00 evalbot_7551 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:00 autrijus PerlJam: nod. but I try to chalk out Visio pictures and random irc/journal blabbering and proof-of-concept .hs code meanwhile :)
23:00 evalbot_7552 has joined #perl6
23:00 autrijus thinking aloud vs thinking quietly, I think.
23:00 elmex hmm.. i just read a ruby article... where a proposal was done: s/eigenclass/idiotclass/g
23:00 PerlJam yep.
23:01 elmex - meaning that naming it in anyway is ... weird
23:01 eric256 later
23:02 autrijus er, no,
23:02 autrijus idioclass
23:02 eric256 has left
23:02 autrijus not idiotclass
23:02 autrijus "idio", from german root, "self-standing"
23:02 elmex oh
23:02 elmex hm
23:02 svnbot6 r7553 | autrijus++ | * also perl5_free the p5 interpreter at global finalizer
23:02 svnbot6 r7553 | autrijus++ |   time.  Tested and works with both p5+parrot embedding. woot1
23:02 elmex well, isn't it just an implementation detail ?
23:03 ingy_ autrijus: ...
23:03 ingy_ cpan-upload -mailto [email@hidden.address] -user INGY -password ******** Perl6-Bible-0.20.tar.gz
23:03 ingy_ Finished!
23:03 autrijus but it has... weird connotations
23:03 autrijus ingy_: thanks!
23:03 ingy_ autrijus: building the bible is all automated for me
23:03 PerlJam autrijus: and an obvious misspelling that isn't too flattering.
23:03 autrijus elmex: well, the ability to tack on arbitary methods on random objects without changing it class
23:03 autrijus PerlJam: indeed
23:03 autrijus elmex: is more than an implementation detail.
23:03 autrijus you can't quite do that in perl5.
23:03 rafl Is there any other Distribution than Debian that comes with pugs, btw?
23:04 elmex autrijus: well, self/smalltalk/other languages have that ability without any special name
23:04 autrijus elmex: right, I agree
23:04 ingy_ Unfortunately I got dragged into meetings, but just ping me here when an update is needed
23:04 autrijus but I think the eigen name is fun.
23:04 ingy_ it only takes 5 minutes
23:04 autrijus ingy_: cool!
23:04 autrijus ingy++
23:04 ingy_ (+ 5 more for paranoia)
23:05 autrijus ingy_: it's all automated, so what about a web form? :D
23:05 elmex k :)
23:05 ingy_ sorry I can't seem to contribute more...
23:05 autrijus ingy_: so I can channel it to svn.perl.org watcher
23:05 autrijus ingy_: so whenever there is a checkin there is a new bible
23:05 autrijus (checkin to perl6/AES/ that is)
23:06 ingy_ autrijus: how about whenever there is a checkin, it pings me here?
23:06 autrijus ingy_: ok, deal
23:06 ingy_ It's *mostly* automated ;)
23:06 ingy_ I like to sanity check it
23:06 autrijus I figured you were exaggerating a bit :)
23:06 autrijus sanity checks are good.
23:06 ingy_ is now known as ingy
23:08 ingy My automatic module review and upload facility has human verification checks...
23:08 offby1 That sounds like Zippy:
23:08 autrijus right, because ingy is also fully automated
23:08 offby1 Yow!  My AUTOMATIC MODULE REVIEW and UPLOAD FACILITY has HUMAN VERIFICATION CHECKS!
23:08 autrijus yow.
23:09 mugwump and ITS UNSTOPPABLE :)
23:09 ingy I'm RELIGIOUS!!  I love a man with a HAIRPIECE!!  Equip me with
23:09 ingy              MISSILES!!
23:10 * ingy channels purl
23:11 autrijus for further enlightenment, consult ./pugs examples/network/http-client.p6
23:11 autrijus ;)
23:11 nomeata has joined #perl6
23:14 rafl Hi nomeata
23:14 rafl nomeata++; # for uploading the pugs package to Debian for me
23:14 cognominal where is the Perl6::Bible control system where I can read the diffs?
23:15 cognominal s/control/version control/
23:16 evalbot_7552 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:16 evalbot_7553 has joined #perl6
23:18 autrijus cognominal: http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk/
23:19 cognominal thx
23:19 autrijus np
23:19 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:21 wilx has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:22 PerlJam has quit IRC ("home!")
23:33 * leo__ started just 'make' after a 'svn up' of a few revs - the previous one was 'make unoptimized' - does that work?
23:37 leo__ never mind - I ^C-ed it anyway - taking too long ;-)
23:37 ingy autrijus: do you msg anymore?
23:38 autrijus ingy: you need to nickserv your nick register
23:38 autrijus to msg anybody
23:38 sleepster is now known as typester
23:38 autrijus it's silly, so try msg me in magnet or ircnet
23:39 thomason has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:39 autrijus leo__: it works, but "unoptimised" is faster
23:39 leo__ yep - thx
23:54 dolmen has quit IRC ("Zzzzzz....")
23:56 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:58 meppl gute nacht
23:58 geoffb night, meppl
23:59 meppl ;)

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