Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:50 autrijus whew :)
00:50 rep ahhh i hate visas/work authorizations.
00:50 svnbot6 r7585 | autrijus++ | * "Larry was a mariner", after first SEE session:
00:50 svnbot6 r7585 | autrijus++ |   Stanza 1&2 done, 3..6 generally reviewed, still half to go.
00:50 autrijus rep: indeed :/ most unpredictable and painful
00:51 geoffb Welcome back, autrijus
00:51 autrijus thanks. wordsmithing is fun, although very demanding
00:52 geoffb Don't I know it!
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00:52 * autrijus praises allison for general poetic cluefulness
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00:56 svnbot6 r7586 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: add pronounciation hint for \n+ and \w+
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01:02 svnbot6 r7587 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: reformat into 4-line paragraphs.
01:02 svnbot6 r7587 | autrijus++ |   that's it for today for me...
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01:08 svnbot6 r7588 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: small trivial general typo fix.
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01:15 stevan autrijus: I think I am going to give up on the class methods thread
01:15 stevan I think i have made my point, which is that there is always another way, which is many times better
01:16 autrijus ...and more general to boot
01:16 autrijus or at least can be made so.
01:16 stevan yes
01:16 stevan but cultural pressures are such that it should be done
01:17 stevan I will add it into the metamodel in the next few days
01:17 autrijus so it would be done. *nod*
01:17 stevan I think all told, it will be about 15 lines of code :)
01:17 autrijus at least this thread did not fizzle and went nowhere like others.
01:17 autrijus and raised clear points for once :)
01:18 stevan yes, I am probably going to bring up some of larrys subpoints again
01:18 autrijus cool
01:18 stevan in particular the "autogenerated class accessors are submethods"
01:18 stevan and I wanna push the class-role interchange-ability
01:18 autrijus i.e. class accessors don't inherit?
01:19 stevan class attribute accessors
01:19 stevan because the state they access if not inherited
01:19 autrijus yeah
01:19 stevan if you want them to inherit,.. write em yourself
01:19 stevan :)
01:19 autrijus right, they are normal lexicals etc
01:19 autrijus exactly
01:19 stevan yup
01:19 autrijus yeah, point.
01:19 stevan ok, time for me to get back to building shelves
01:20 stevan adios &
01:20 autrijus adios!
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01:26 autrijus adamc00: hi :)
01:26 wolverian what a thrill it is to use >>= to get rid of a <-
01:26 wolverian now I think I will sleep :) cheers
01:26 rep hehe
01:26 rep night
01:27 autrijus beware of the point-less-wock, my son! the dots that bite, the parens that catch! :)
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01:49 geoffb Oh, stevan, fyi, the -Ofun blog broke 1000 . . . thanks for hiring that offshort team!
01:52 autrijus clickfarm++
01:52 obra clickfarm?
01:53 autrijus obra: stevan joked about turning his company's horde(?) of resources to clicking geoffb's -Ofun blog
01:53 autrijus so his rank can improve
01:53 rep heh
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01:54 obra nice
01:54 obra . o O { Slashdot didn't }
01:54 obra ?
01:54 geoffb .oO( Do people still spend money on clickfarming? )
01:55 geoffb obra, /. made a big difference.
01:56 geoffb However, either A) the number of people who care about -Ofun are small (I doubt it), B) O'Reilly's hit counters suck (I doubt that, since that's how online journalism makes money), or C) the caching infrastructure of the internet actually works.
01:56 geoffb s/internet/web/
01:58 autrijus "I thought the Internet is just a website?"
01:58 autrijus </troll>
02:02 geoffb autrijus, :-P
02:03 geoffb I have had to deal with way too many "The internet is broken!" calls
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02:03 geoffb None of which were technically correct.  ;-)
02:04 autrijus sure, otherwise you'd be working in CERT :)
02:04 geoffb Now there's a depressing job . . .
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02:37 putter stevan: re class attributes, given class C{ our $x; class C::D{ mumble }} , is $x visible in mumble?  if no, what about for anon classes?
02:41 putter re the api in 25_example_People_Employee.t, if   our $.pop; is accessed by ->class::pop(), what about  our @.pop; ?
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02:52 putter stevan: is $pkg->FETCH('{}')  a public api?  if not, is there an official way to check whether a name occurs in %:namespace?
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03:18 putter steven: (just in case you backlog), any suggestions on doing  Int.new(42) and such?   Ie, I'd like a positional rather than a named constructor, to get away from the clutter of Int->new('$.unboxed'=>42).  But it will be very inner-loopy, so I hesitate to just slap in a simple_new() method.  any thoughts?
03:19 putter s/clutter/clutter and abstraction busting/
03:20 putter obviously not just Int, but Bit/Bool, etc too.
03:31 putter
03:32 putter anyone: what is undef?  I would have thought is was an instance of a class Undef.  it's not a singleton, as one can do  "undef but dances_jigs".  but Undef isnt listed in S06.
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04:09 putter hmm, Rat isnt on https://svn.perl.org/perl6/d​oc/trunk/design/syn/S06.pod  Rational-ity gone?
04:24 mrborisguy this may be more of a Parrot question than a Perl6, but help me out here...
04:24 mrborisguy will it be possible for me to write some sort of function/sub in another language, say a functional one that runs on parrot
04:24 mrborisguy and then use it in a Perl6 script?
04:27 mrborisguy I guess, kinda meaning make a library out of some other language that I can use in p6
04:31 PerlJam mrborisguy: yes, there will be ways to do that.
04:31 PerlJam That's one of the prime benefits of parrot.
04:32 PerlJam Languages that target parrot (python, php, etc) suddenly get access to CPAN
04:38 mrborisguy ah, I wasn't sure if Arrays had to be implimented the exact way, or something
04:39 mrborisguy you know, something crazy like that
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05:30 Khisanth PerlJam: benefit to who? :)
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07:34 spinclad autrijus: in haskell.xul, s/Fibbonaci/Fibonacci/
07:39 coral i was thinking of perl6 when i read http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~erw​ig/papers/InductiveGraphs_JFP01.pdf
07:39 coral thought it might be interesting to y'all
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08:17 gaal print (greet greet), that's meant to be an error?
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08:40 gaal eric256, ping
08:44 gaal "tall" and "camel" hardly rhyme...
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10:11 ods15 gaal: ! you're online!
10:11 ods15 you should be fasting!
10:32 gaal i should?
10:33 gaal what i should be doing is riding around town, but i'm feeling sort of lazy today.
10:36 svnbot6 r7589 | scook0++ | * Simple parse tests for various sub-call forms
10:36 svnbot6 r7589 | scook0++ | (of these, only `succ .(1+2) * 30` is broken currently)
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10:48 svnbot6 r7590 | gaal++ | minor monadic golfage
10:49 ods15 :)
10:58 autrijus gaal: can I s/liftM/fmap/ ?
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10:59 wolverian argh, my university apparently requires me to use Java for most programming courses. this sucks.
10:59 autrijus besides even more golfing, fmap fits my brain much better...
10:59 gaal autrijus: sure :)
10:59 scook0 autrijus: I agree, I find fmap easier to read than liftM for some reason...
11:00 autrijus scook0: because it's describe things more denotationally
11:00 autrijus than operationally, I guess
11:00 scook0 yeah
11:00 scook0 liftM transforms the function, then applies it
11:00 scook0 fmap applies the function over the argument
11:00 autrijus yup
11:00 gaal I don't have a deep understanding of this stuff yet. I'm using golf as a method of learning.
11:01 * autrijus praises functors and natural transformations
11:01 scook0 I also can't stand flip -- I much prefer reverse sections
11:01 autrijus gaal: cool :)
11:01 scook0 functional golf can be fun
11:01 scook0 especially when the idea is to make it *easier* to read :)
11:02 gaal I just knew that a case returning Nothing -> Nothing *had* to be golfed :)
11:02 autrijus yup :)
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11:05 autrijus when I'm preparing the slides... it occured to me that most of the perculiar features in hs is there just so we can fearlessly golf^Wrefactor things, without putting the entire program logic into one's head
11:06 autrijus aka the power of Reason -- like in the snow crash novel -- http://www.marstar.ca/images​/Automatics/M2HB/M2-M63.jpg
11:07 gaal autrijus: Reason was a Gatling gun
11:07 gaal IIRC
11:07 autrijus really. hm
11:07 autrijus you are probably right... I misrecalled
11:08 autrijus something like this then http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpali​b/factfile/weapons/phal-blk1b.gif
11:08 gaal http://www.clubhyper.com/re​ference/images/Gau8a_a.jpg
11:08 autrijus wow, that's good
11:09 gaal it features strong typing, too, in a way.
11:09 gaal you definitely know when you're at the wrong end of this fellow.
11:09 autrijus and static, too
11:09 autrijus if you stay at the right end you'll probably remain there
11:11 gaal yes, it's very haskellish to call something static when it fires fifty rounds a second.
11:11 autrijus :D
11:12 * autrijus goes lifting -- I mean fmaping -- this picture into the talk
11:14 gaal you encounter the most ridiculous things when browsing wikipedia:
11:14 Juerd I'm going to sell my old laptop
11:14 gaal # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-303
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11:14 Juerd This sucks :)
11:14 gaal how can a phalanx gun work in space?
11:14 Juerd I haven't touched it in weeks, but I'm using it now to test it
11:15 Juerd And I don't want it gone :)
11:15 gaal Juerd: you need the $$$?
11:15 Juerd Yes
11:15 Juerd Well, I don't exactly really *need* it
11:15 Juerd I could do without
11:15 Juerd But it'd be a hell of a lot more comfortable with the extra cash :)
11:15 gaal albeit laptopless.
11:16 Juerd I have a new laptop
11:16 gaal ah :)
11:16 svnbot6 r7591 | autrijus++ | * change liftM to fmap for more golfing value...
11:16 Juerd I wonder what the old one is still worth
11:16 * gaal praises Hoogle
11:20 scook0 Hoogle is nice
11:21 scook0 though I wish it had GHC functions as well
11:21 svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ | * somehow syck wants to include <config.h>, but I suspect
11:21 svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ |   it's not the same config.h as GHC, and hence causing
11:21 svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ |   putter's failure on x86_64.  To fix this properly would
11:21 svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ |   be to supply Syck's config detection as part of our
11:21 svnbot6 r7592 | autrijus++ |   Makefile.PL / configure process, but here is a bandaid...
11:25 gaal scook0: any idea what it would take to add them?
11:26 scook0 gaal: no, sadly...
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11:33 wolverian Juerd, what kind of a laptop is that you're selling?
11:36 Juerd wolverian: IBM R40
11:36 wolverian Juerd, do you have a buyer already?
11:36 Juerd wolverian: centrino, 1.3 GHz, 768 MB, 40 GB, 15", 802.11b, 10/100, ultranav
11:36 Juerd No
11:37 Juerd One thing is broken: the nic. I have a xircom realport to replace the functionality
11:37 Juerd (Because dongles suck.)
11:37 wolverian ah.
11:37 wolverian what OS are you running on it?
11:38 Juerd I've always used linux on it
11:38 wolverian right. how much are you asking for it?
11:38 Juerd But it'll be sold with the factory default installation, if the buyer wants that
11:38 wolverian or are you going to put it out for auction?
11:39 Juerd I haven't investigated price options yet
11:39 Juerd I'd like to get 650 for it, and I think that's reasonable, but I'll have to see ebay and such first to see if it's a good price
11:39 wolverian I see R40E (which is a different setup) being sold at 600e to 900e
11:39 Juerd -e is bad.
11:39 wolverian okay.
11:40 wolverian no .11g?
11:40 wolverian argh, have to go!
11:40 Juerd no g
11:41 Juerd Bye
11:44 c0nspiracy if (isDA) {
11:44 c0nspiracy                populateProfileGroupList();
11:44 Juerd .oO( isNYET )
11:44 c0nspiracy sorry
11:44 Juerd hm?
11:45 c0nspiracy hit paste by accident
11:45 scook0 Juerd: *groan*
11:45 Juerd Why groanst thou?
11:48 scook0 Juerd: thy pun doth deserve it so
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11:50 Juerd :)
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11:57 svnbot6 r7593 | scook0++ | * Can't let gaal & autrijus have all the golfing fun :)
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12:57 Juerd We have a copier and toothpaste
12:58 xerox Ciao!
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13:09 svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Unbreak the build (3-char patch).
13:09 svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Run: Added a comment: "If you change the name or contents of
13:09 svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ |   $?PUGS_BACKEND, be sure to update all t/ and perl5/{PIL2JS,PIL-Run} as well."
13:09 svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ | * t/syntax/parsing_sub_calls.t: skip test under PIL2JS and PIL-Run (needs eval()).
13:09 svnbot6 r7594 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
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13:12 gaal yay! I just managed my first pugs build+smoke with coLinux, and it's not significantly slower than straight win32!
13:13 xerox gaal++ :D
13:13 gaal coLinux++ :)
13:15 svnbot6 r7595 | scook0++ | * More lambda-golf: `when not` => `unless`
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13:39 svnbot6 r7596 | iblech++ | * Moved t/syntax/parsing_* to new dir t/syntax/parsing/.
13:39 svnbot6 r7596 | iblech++ | * Merged t/syntax/string_parsing.t into t/builtins/strings/string_interpolation.t.
13:39 svnbot6 r7596 | iblech++ | * Merged t/data_types/parse_hash_ref.t into t/var/autoref.t and added some more
13:39 svnbot6 r7596 | iblech++ |   tests to it.
13:39 svnbot6 r7596 | iblech++ | * Renamed t/pugsbugs/parse-fail.t to t/pugsbugs/slow-parse-fail.t.
13:39 svnbot6 r7597 | iblech++ | * Moved the various *interpolation* tests into new dir t/syntax/interpolation/.
13:39 svnbot6 r7597 | iblech++ | * pugs::hack: Added entry for t/types/.
13:40 rafl OK, new pugs 6.2.10 packages at http://perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ - testers welcome.
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14:13 svnbot6 r7598 | iblech++ | * examples/output/overloading, t/operators/adverbial_modifiers.t: Fixed
14:13 svnbot6 r7598 | iblech++ |   expectations of .perlifications WRT (e.g.) "\t" now stringifying as "\t"
14:13 svnbot6 r7598 | iblech++ |   (instead of '[literal tab here]').
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14:15 clkao `/aw
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14:18 rafl gaal: ping
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14:35 nothingmuch autrijus: i think the haskell talk has slightly too much syntax
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14:36 eric256 but thats a slick interface
14:36 nothingmuch for example, the fib = 0 : 1 [ x + y | (x, y) <- fib `zip` tail fib ] one
14:36 nothingmuch yeah, it is
14:36 nothingmuch that's a lot of syntax in one example
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14:36 nothingmuch i think it's better illustrated using map, or even omitted
14:36 autrijus nothingmuch: but I wanted to show comprehensions
14:37 nothingmuch is there a really good reason to show them?
14:37 autrijus the aim of the talk is to enable someone who knows nothing about haskell to not freak out when reading code
14:37 nothingmuch hmm
14:37 autrijus uhm because they are used in production?
14:37 autrijus I'm not sure...
14:37 autrijus I don't use `zip` btw
14:37 autrijus I used a parallel comprehension
14:37 autrijus precisely to avoid zip
14:37 nothingmuch it's just that their syntax is sooooo dense for imperative heads
14:37 nothingmuch oh, i see
14:38 luqui maybe have a slide that introduces comprehension before the infinite fibo
14:38 autrijus 0 : 1 : [ x+y | x <- fib | y <- tail fib ]
14:38 nothingmuch yeah, that's more readable than the zip one
14:38 nothingmuch hmmm...
14:38 autrijus luqui: hm, think an simpler comprehension example?
14:38 nothingmuch since you mentioned you're really short on time I thought that was a good candidate for simplification
14:39 autrijus nod...
14:39 nothingmuch "type rocks, typing sucks" - please explain ;-)
14:39 luqui autrijus, in "people need more time to think about that", people refers to people on the list, I gathered
14:39 autrijus luqui: ahh ok.
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14:39 luqui typing as in on a keyboard
14:39 autrijus nothingmuch: types are cool, but having to _type down_, as in keying in, sucks
14:39 wolverian autrijus++ # for knowing it's 0,1 not 1,1
14:39 nothingmuch ah
14:40 eric256 just a random question...since haskel cares about space..shouldn't the code be left aligned instead of centered?
14:40 autrijus nothingmuch: it's a -Opun
14:40 nothingmuch yeah
14:40 autrijus eric256: yes, see my journal
14:40 autrijus will be <pre> properly later
14:40 autrijus content first
14:40 eric256 ahh. yes ignore me
14:40 eric256 lol
14:40 autrijus eric256: never :)
14:41 nothingmuch "how type inferrence works" - i think an intermediate frame is in order
14:41 autrijus nothingmuch: my dilemma is such: I very much need to show concise example from killer apps to let audience get a feel of really high level symbolic power
14:41 nothingmuch (++) :: [a] -> [a] -> [a]
14:41 autrijus nothingmuch: but to even get a bit of feeling, you can't skim on the syntax and data types
14:41 nothingmuch (++) "Hello" :: [Char] -> [Char]
14:42 luqui autrijus, so just show the fixpoint combinator.  heh, not.
14:42 nothingmuch can't you get more than 45 mins?
14:42 nothingmuch an hour and 15, or an hour and a half seems more adequate
14:42 autrijus luqui: you mean...  y f = f (y f)   ?
14:42 autrijus nothingmuch: right, but sadly no
14:42 luqui yes that one, but show it being used.  except don't.
14:43 autrijus thank you :)
14:43 autrijus nothingmuch: re (++) "Hello", good point
14:43 luqui nothingmuch, that's a nice example
14:43 nothingmuch autrijus: i think the way inferrence works is pretty simple if you just say how:
14:44 nothingmuch it goes down the AST, and it makes assertions about the relations using links between things
14:44 nothingmuch and then it goes up the tree unifying the links
14:44 autrijus nothingmuch: help me explain what a AST is in two slides ;)
14:44 nothingmuch oh, right
14:45 * nothingmuch kind of forgot he didn't know what that was till he came to pugsland
14:45 luqui yeah, and that's explaining it from an implementation perspective
14:45 autrijus nothingmuch: yeah... I made 3x more slides
14:45 autrijus and killed them all
14:46 autrijus all because I need to unlearn stuff continuously
14:46 nothingmuch autrijus: i think the example with 'half' and currying is too complicated, because it introduces infixing
14:46 nothingmuch i think you should do 'double = 2 *' instead
14:46 luqui from a user perspective, you just say "it looks at your code, and figures out what you should have typed if you were giving explicit annotations"
14:46 nothingmuch it really looks like there is a missing argument
14:46 nothingmuch and do it with ghci
14:46 nothingmuch :t *
14:46 nothingmuch :t 2 *
14:46 nothingmuch let double = 2 *
14:46 nothingmuch :t double
14:46 autrijus nothingmuch: point, fixed
14:46 nothingmuch doublt 5
14:46 luqui let double = (2 *)
14:46 eric256 acutaly i liked the currying examples
14:47 nothingmuch eric256: it's a very nice example because infix syntax makes currying even cooler in haskell
14:47 autrijus eric256: right, nothingmuch is just saying we should just show curry to the left
14:47 autrijus as curry to the right is something peripheral (although extremely handy)
14:47 nothingmuch do you get into infix syntax?
14:47 eric256 and i just learned a minute bit of haskel, but the slides flowed pretty well even without the assumed audio
14:47 luqui nothingmuch, you mean section syntax?
14:48 stevan has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
14:48 nothingmuch in the 'uc' example please don't forget to mention that toUpper is for chars, not like perl heads would expect
14:48 autrijus nothingmuch: eg this?
14:48 autrijus chr `map` [79,75] ? "OK"
14:48 nothingmuch hmm
14:48 autrijus nothingmuch: I had it, then decides it's peripheral as well
14:48 autrijus takahashi is really frustrating in a way because you end up deleting far more than you write ;)
14:49 nothingmuch forget ``, just note that 'x + y' is the same as '(+) x y'
14:49 autrijus but it's worth it... it's like ninjatsu training or something
14:49 PerlJam autrijus: isn't that the normal way of things?
14:49 autrijus PerlJam: no, the MJD/Judo way never delete things
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14:49 autrijus they get converted to "digression slides", "pretty pictures" and "bonus sections in handout"
14:50 Jooon autrijus: did you see this presentation http://www.identity20.com/media/OSCON2005/ ?
14:50 PerlJam interesting.  I guess I've always done it the takahashi way then :)
14:50 * nothingmuch didn't know you could invent circumfix datatype syntax
14:50 tewk has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
14:50 autrijus nothingmuch: it's useful
14:50 luqui autrijus, you can?
14:51 autrijus data Exp = Var :-> Exp
14:51 luqui oh.. that's, um, infix
14:51 autrijus oh, er, sorry
14:51 autrijus nothingmuch: you can't; it's prelude priviledge
14:51 nothingmuch ah
14:52 luqui but the infix constructors are quite nice
14:52 autrijus but constructors that start with : are infix
14:52 nothingmuch autrijus: the XUL stuff is very cool
14:52 autrijus and the reason for that is just generalizing the ":" constructor
14:52 autrijus nothingmuch: yes, way cooler than s5
14:52 autrijus esp. because you can link to it!
14:52 autrijus Jooon: no, ooh, I'll get to waste more time
14:52 nothingmuch di we have KWID in JS?
14:53 autrijus probably not though should be easy to kludge and halfbaked version
14:53 autrijus eric256: thanks for the positive review :D
14:54 nothingmuch what about Textile?
14:54 autrijus possible... or markdown
14:54 autrijus Javascript is evidently the new Ruby
14:55 autrijus because _all_ it has is eigenclasses! ;)
14:55 Jooon autrijus: 15 minutes, very tight presentation, using his slides as subtitles to his talk. with pictures used as pictograms almost. the content of the presentation was pretty basic stuff, but it was very fun to see it "performed"
14:55 Blicero has joined #perl6
14:55 autrijus Jooon: yeah, I'm trying to follow that idea. downloading
14:56 autrijus so, in the function section in my talk.
14:56 autrijus I can perhaps introduce three more concepts
14:56 autrijus with max "don't freak out when you see this" value
14:56 autrijus should I show lambda functions?
14:57 eric256 i would argue no.
14:57 autrijus the Show and Num classes?
14:57 eric256 although i understand them immediatly they arn't easy to read for the first 20 times. ;)
14:58 autrijus explaining (gasp) "IO a" and RealWorld?
14:58 autrijus how people write "for" loops using recursion?
14:58 autrijus folding? (ugh)
14:58 autrijus recursive datatypes aka Tree?
14:58 nothingmuch i argue yes
14:59 nothingmuch lambda functions help tie things together
14:59 nothingmuch foo x = x + 2
14:59 nothingmuch foo = \x -> x + 2
14:59 nothingmuch tell them it's almost the same
14:59 autrijus except for the monomorphic restriction
14:59 eric256 nothingmuch sure. but if this is just a "begging haskell" then that is something they can pickup when they dive in for real
14:59 autrijus but I'm not going to say that ;)
14:59 nothingmuch eric256: the issue is that since every symbol is a value
15:00 nothingmuch and some values are functions, while others are data types
15:00 nothingmuch when the listener gets that, things become easier
15:00 eric256 true
15:00 eric256 my big problem was that the \x notation kept yelling reference in my head
15:00 nothingmuch 'map' is a value
15:00 eric256 and i lost track of the scope of x
15:00 nothingmuch it's value is '\fun list -> ...'
15:00 nothingmuch this helps realize how currying works
15:01 autrijus nothingmuch: I can show it in the desugaring slide
15:01 nothingmuch in that \f x -> f + y is really \x -> \x -> f + x'
15:01 nothingmuch eep, i can't type at all
15:01 autrijus http://perlcabal.org/~autri​jus/tmp/haskell.xul?page=48
15:01 nothingmuch i wish safari had XUL
15:03 nothingmuch that's a nice example
15:03 autrijus think I can use the proper greek for \ ?
15:03 eric256 that example looks good
15:03 autrijus I'll explain it will be written as \ of course
15:03 nothingmuch yes
15:04 autrijus cool
15:04 nothingmuch do you show how 'foo x y = ...' is desugared into single arg functions for currying goodness?
15:04 eric256 the example my tutorial used had continuations + folding + \ .....scared the crap out of me...so i was a little gun shy with \ ;)
15:04 autrijus eric256: ah. :) so the \x -> case ... is probably fine with out
15:04 nothingmuch eric256: \x -> ... is fun with map
15:04 autrijus as a desugar with http://perlcabal.org/~autri​jus/tmp/haskell.xul?page=47
15:04 nothingmuch map (\x -> ...) list
15:05 nothingmuch once you start using that you are no longer afraid
15:05 eric256 yea i liked those to going together.
15:06 nothingmuch autrijus: does the XUL package thingy have key bindings?
15:07 nothingmuch hah! http://www.haskell.org/hawiki/AntiBuddha
15:08 luqui wow, that's a little... hostile
15:10 eric256 i thought  it was pretty funny
15:10 eric256 lol
15:10 nothingmuch luqui: i'm guessing that whoever made a perl binding has some sympathy for perl
15:11 luqui yeah...
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15:12 luqui oh, I finished the backend to my L::AG rewrite
15:12 luqui now all that's left is syntax and error checking (the latter of those is the one that scares me)
15:13 nothingmuch luqui: at least i gave you a few tests to decide on
15:13 luqui true, thanks :-)
15:15 * eric256 's database slave is now only 124k seconds behind and closing fast. ;)
15:15 luqui lazy stuff is really hard to debug...
15:15 nothingmuch luqui: true
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15:21 gaal am i imagining things, or is the takahashi-xul javascript about as big as the js runcore? :)
15:22 autrijus Jooon: aha, another lessig style user
15:23 autrijus Jooon: it's very a very well presented talk.
15:23 autrijus Jooon++ # thanks for the link... I get to rethink about the b/w vs w/b color issue
15:23 autrijus gaal: probably you are right :)
15:30 autrijus nothingmuch: yes. pgup/down
15:30 nothingmuch ah
15:30 gaal hee, that's a video clip, not a talk!
15:31 autrijus I can see code better for white on black
15:32 autrijus so naturally my slides are made like that
15:32 gaal that == the Dick H talk, not yours
15:32 autrijus yup
15:32 autrijus but all other takahashi users -- dickh included -- uses black on white
15:32 theorbtwo OTOH, the viewing conditions are somewhat different with a big projector vs your laptop.
15:32 autrijus maybe I'm missing something important.
15:32 autrijus theorbtwo: true.
15:36 stevan_ is now known as stevan
15:37 xerox autrijus: woot, news on the takahashi XUL app?
15:38 autrijus xerox: thanks to dickh I changed fonts, added some function examples, about to add something more
15:39 autrijus xerox: 16:56 < autrijus> I can perhaps introduce three more concepts
15:39 autrijus 16:56 < autrijus> with max "don't freak out when you see this" value
15:39 autrijus suggestions?
15:39 xerox Cool.  I'll check it afterwards :D
15:39 autrijus ok :)
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15:39 xerox What are you referring about, exactly?
15:39 gaal comonads! *duck*
15:39 xerox Hmm, they are obscure.
15:40 xerox Composable continuations, I'd say!
15:40 gaal zygomorphisms?
15:40 xerox Dunno really!
15:40 nothingmuch wow, that's a well prepared talk
15:40 xerox nothingmuch: url?
15:41 nothingmuch xerox: /lastlog Jooon
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15:43 gaal interesting. autrijus, remember brad who was here when we rolled out '.10?
15:43 gaal he's the guy behind openid.net
15:43 gaal which turns out to be pertinent to the dickh talk
15:43 xerox gaal: is too much to ask for an explanation of 'zygomorphisms'?
15:43 autrijus gaal: ah. nod
15:43 gaal it is if you want to ask me about it :)
15:44 xerox :(
15:44 gaal just one of the obscure terms from wrong end of the the Evolution page
15:44 gaal s/wrong/far/
15:44 autrijus lol
15:45 Juerd Opinions please
15:45 autrijus I like the "tenured prof" one
15:45 Juerd A black t-shirt, white text on front:
15:45 autrijus fac n = product [1..n]
15:45 Juerd s:g/5/6/;
15:45 gaal Which reminds me of Analytic and Algebraic Topology of Locally Euclidean Metrization
15:45 gaal of Infinitely Differentiable Riemannian Manifold
15:45 autrijus Juerd: good idea.
15:45 gaal (Bozhe moi!)
15:45 Juerd Think it'll sell?
15:46 xerox Later!
15:46 autrijus the golfer in me immediately suggests tr///
15:46 autrijus ;)
15:46 Juerd I have to have 10 made to get normal prices
15:46 Juerd autrijus: Except Perl 6 tr is no longer as consise
15:46 Juerd concise
15:46 Juerd And no longer tr/// :)
15:46 autrijus y/// neither, yeah
15:46 rafl Hey gaal. Please test the new pugs package from http://perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ - I think those will be uploaded if you don't find something bad.
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15:47 gaal rafl: sure!
15:47 autrijus how sad. many a tournaments were won with y///... </offtopic>
15:47 autrijus Juerd: so what's this for?
15:47 autrijus I mean, the audience
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15:48 rafl gaal: It's the biggest package I maintain ATM (48k diff between upstream and debian version). Some testers make that easier.
15:49 theorbtwo Hmm... I have an idea, now that I am about to leave, and would like to be able to backlog when I get back to find out what you guys think of it.
15:49 autrijus theorbtwo: do tell
15:49 gaal rafl: okay. if you have any things in particular you want me to look at, please tell
15:49 theorbtwo The idea is a specialized search engine of things @Larry and $Larry say on perl6.*.
15:50 Juerd autrijus: Perl people
15:50 theorbtwo ...hopefully with the ability to annotate to "superseeded by", "superseeded in part by", etc.
15:50 Juerd It's a shirt I'd like to have
15:50 Juerd But to have it made economically, I need 9 others :)
15:50 Jooon rafl: I was trying to see why I couldn't get that with apt. can you update Packages.gz?
15:51 rafl gaal: Working backends (JS prelude should only be generated once, then it should simply work), ghc-pkg describe Pugs should show something useful. use perl5:Foo should work.
15:52 autrijus Juerd: are you going to any conferences in the next year? maybe I can get a bunch made for the Winter 2005 edition of pugscode cafepress and hand you one for free
15:52 rafl Jooon: No. The Packages.gz file was only there so I could use pbuilder on perlcabal.org with an unofficial package (Test::Tap::* wasn't in Debian yet at this time). I think I'll remove the Packages.gz now.
15:52 rafl Jooon: You should be able to get it using apt from any Debian mirror soon.
15:52 Jooon ok
15:53 rafl Jooon: On the given URL there are only packages for testing from time to time. They might be broken at any point.
15:53 gaal hmmm, i wonder why gpm won't work in colinux
15:53 Juerd autrijus: I'm going to the post-oscon meeting next week
15:53 rafl What's colinux?
15:53 Juerd autrijus: (amsterdam.pm)
15:53 Juerd autrijus: IIRC, cafepress doesn't do white on black
15:54 gaal rafl: run linux as a win32 process. really nice. fast.
15:54 autrijus Juerd: really. hm
15:54 Juerd autrijus: It looks very cryptic, and I think white on black adds to that
15:54 Juerd Or lime on black
15:54 autrijus ah. nod
15:54 autrijus amsterdam.pm is probably strong/geeky enough to support that :)
15:55 gaal autrijus: dickh uses b on w to great effect in his talk. for the negative things :)
15:55 autrijus gaal: yes. maye I can use it for section headings
15:55 autrijus not sure.
15:55 Juerd autrijus: Could you try and find out if cafepress prints on black?
15:55 Juerd It's possible they changed things
15:56 rafl gaal: Hrm.. I still prefer now running Windows. As a process or not. :-)
15:56 Juerd I have to go home now
15:56 Juerd Later
15:56 Juerd afk
15:56 rafl Bye Jooon
15:56 rafl Err, Bye Juerd
15:56 Jooon bye bye :)
15:56 gaal rafl: me too, but this machine is nominally for games
15:56 gaal and i hate rebooting, it turns out, even worse than i hate running a full-screen putty.
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15:57 autrijus Juerd: only green/yellow/pink.
15:58 rafl gaal: Hey, there's netcat and blobwars and viruskiller and frozen-bubble and planet-pengiun-racer and ... :-)
15:58 autrijus bbiab to...
15:58 autrijus s/to/too/
15:58 rafl gaal: Do you test the packages on that win32-linux-thingy?
15:58 gaal netcat as a game is a nice idea :)
15:58 gaal rafl: today's the first time i got pugs to compile there
15:59 gaal well, just because only today i got the networking to work
15:59 gaal my real linux box has insifficient ram for pugs hacking.
16:00 gaal so far the only major gripe i have with it is that the console is *real* slow. but i should probably just putty to it.
16:01 gaal rafl: so far so good on the packages.
16:01 eric256 is there a cleaner way to write $d = ($d+1) % 4; ??
16:02 rafl gaal: Well, you have an account on feather, do you? I think feathers hardware is sufficient.
16:02 gaal latency sucks :(
16:02 gaal plus i don't want to test packaging on feather! :)
16:02 eric256 hmmm or more directly, i have an array of for values and i want to jump back to the first when i get to the last...any ideas?
16:03 * eric256 has no latency issues with featehr
16:03 eric256 feather even
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16:05 svnbot6 r7599 | eric256++ | Ported Spiral_Numbers code form perlmonks code snippets section.  Just a rough conversion to get it working, not very different than the p5 version.
16:05 evalbot_7599 has joined #perl6
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16:11 eric256 databases are now within 80k seconds of each other...so exciting. lol
16:11 gaal rafl: colinux:~> ghc-pkg describe Pugs
16:11 gaal ghc-pkg: cannot find package Pugs
16:12 gaal other than that, looking good.
16:12 rafl gaal: libghc6-pugs-dev installed? It's also built from the pugs source package.
16:12 gaal bbiab&
16:12 gaal oh
16:12 gaal is it there too?
16:12 rafl Seems so: http://perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/​libghc6-pugs-dev_6.2.10-1_i386.deb
16:12 gaal sec
16:14 gaal looks like it's wokring, couple of Qs though
16:14 gaal do we *want* to expose so many modules?
16:14 gaal do we really depend on QuickCheck-1.0 ?
16:15 rafl gaal: Cabal says so. I won't mess up with cabal again. :-)
16:15 gaal i see a field hugs-options, no idea if this is some standard field but, well, we can't build on hugs :)
16:15 gaal heh
16:15 gaal okay, bbiab for real
16:16 gaal (need a shower after B-day)
16:16 rafl autrijus: What do you think about what gaal said?
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16:32 Juerd autrijus: Too bad
16:35 eric256 is there a way to make map modify the area it is maping on instead of a copy? i remember asking before but i forgot
16:35 eric256 map -> $x as rw { }; ??
16:35 eric256 ?eval my @a = (1..5); @a.map -> $x as rw { $x++ }; @a;
16:35 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:36 eric256 ?eval my @a = (1..5); map @a-> $x as rw { $x++ }; @a;
16:36 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator, ":", ",", postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:36 eric256 has left
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16:36 eric256 i guess by that point is should just use a for loop. makes more sense anyway
16:39 gaal you want 'is rw'
16:39 gaal does in-place map work now?
16:39 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); .= as(" %2d") for @s;
16:39 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected "=" or "." expecting ";", statements or end of input
16:39 gaal rehi btw
16:39 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); $_ .= as(" %2d") for @s;
16:39 evalbot_7599 undef
16:39 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); $_ .= as(" %2d") for @s; @s
16:39 evalbot_7599 ["  1", "  2", "  3", "  4", "  5"]
16:40 eric256 shouldn't i be able to drop the $_ ?
16:40 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5);  for @s {  .= as(" %2d") }; @s
16:40 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected "=" or "f" expecting ";", statements or end of input reserved word
16:40 saorge has joined #perl6
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16:41 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5);  for @s {  $_ .= as(" %2d") }; @s
16:41 evalbot_7599 ["  1", "  2", "  3", "  4", "  5"]
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16:41 saorge has joined #perl6
16:41 eric256 did i imagine that i could drop $_ or is it a bug?
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16:43 Limbic_Region eric256 - if implemented, you should be able to use hyper-operators there
16:43 Limbic_Region or map
16:43 eric256 @a>>.as($frm);  #would be nice
16:44 eric256 @a>>.=as($frm);
16:44 Limbic_Region I think you still need to assign though
16:44 Limbic_Region @s = ....
16:44 Limbic_Region but I haven't been keeping up so your guess is better than mine
16:44 eric256 lol
16:45 eric256 gaal how do i is rw on a map?   @a.map $_ is rw { } ??
16:46 gaal -> $_ is rw
16:46 Limbic_Region oh - map in a void context on purpose eh
16:47 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_++ );
16:47 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:47 eric256 ?eval my @s = (1..5); @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_++ };;
16:47 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:47 Limbic_Region ?eval my @s = 1..5; @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_ .= as("%2d") }; @s;
16:47 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:47 eric256 no pretty and working way to do it that i can find. ;(
16:47 Limbic_Region ?eval my @s = 1..5; @s.map -> $_ is rw { $_ .= as("%2d"); }; @s;
16:47 evalbot_7599 Error:  unexpected ">" or "-" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:47 Limbic_Region *shrug*
16:48 * eric256 settles for for @s { $_ .= as($format) }; for the time being
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16:51 svnbot6 r7600 | eric256++ | examples\spiral_numbers.p6 - Some cleanup and reduction.
16:51 iblech eric256: See t/builtins/lists/mutating_listops.t; vanilla Pugs doesn't support mutating map. The syntax would be @array.map:{ $_ = ... } or, if you want to be explicit, @array.map(-> $_ is rw {...})
16:53 eric256 vanilla pugs? is there  a chocolate version i can get my hands on ;)
16:53 iblech rafl: pong (you pinged my yesterday IIRC)
16:53 eric256 btw should the following eventualy work?    .= as("%2d") for @a;
16:53 iblech eric256: vanilly pugs is the normal Haskell runcore, as supposed to pugs -BJS or pugs -BPerl5 (JavaScript/Perl 5 backend)
16:54 eric256 it doesn't currently like droping the $_...but i though that could be dropped before the .
16:54 eric256 ahh
16:54 iblech Not sure... I also seem to remember that dropping the $_ is allowed, but it feels kind of weird
16:55 eric256 yea i realy want an inplace map...sorta.  @list.mutate:{ .as($frm) };
16:56 iblech @list.map:{ $_ .= as($frm) } should work (and does in PIL2JS, module that .as is not yet implemented)
16:56 Limbic_Region IIRC, there was a hot debate regarding the meaning of . without a prefix as in $self or $_ or whatever that went unresolved
16:57 Limbic_Region Yet another reason why following the list is so darn frustrating
16:57 PerlJam I believe it was resolved to .foo always means $_.foo
16:58 PerlJam The the question became should $_ get $?SELF or not  :)
16:58 eric256 ?eval my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; @a;
16:58 evalbot_7600 Error: Can't modify constant item: VInt 1
16:59 iblech eric256: If you have Spidermonkey's bin/js available: pugs -BJS -e 'jspugs> :e my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a;
17:00 iblech 23456
17:00 iblech err, pugs -BJS -e 'my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a'
17:00 iblech works fine :)
17:00 iblech food &
17:01 eric256 we need an eval bot that can use different backends. ;)
17:02 leo__ $ pugs -BJS -e 'my @a = (1..5); @a.map:{$_++}; say @a'
17:03 leo__ *** Precompiled Prelude doesn't exist yet; precompiling...
17:03 leo__ ...
17:03 leo__ Couldn't open "/home/eric256/auto/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/Prelude.js" for writing: Permission denied
17:03 leo__ # just a try ;-)
17:04 eric256 hmm.
17:04 leo__ the prelude should probably created in some $HOME/.pugs_temp
17:05 leo__ or handled with auto magic
17:05 eric256 well i'll set the auto script to build the Perlude.js  automaticaly...if anyone has a trick on how to do that?
17:05 eric256 looks like just trying to use it works, but is there a better way?
17:08 eric256 looks like make install triggers it too../me waits to see
17:13 gaal oh, eric256, i remembered something
17:13 gaal after autrijus mentioned the collaborative editing in his journal,
17:14 gaal i got a hankering to try it out myself.
17:14 gaal want to do the inlined source prelude thing together?
17:15 gaal or did you lose interest once you started building on feather? ;-)
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17:18 brother Shouldn't 'dante'.trans('abce-z'=>'ABCE-Z') return 'dANTE'?
17:18 eric256 well i got pugs compiling on windows now so its not so urgent
17:18 eric256 but i'd still love to help when i can
17:19 brother with Prelude from 6.2.9 it returns 'dante' and with Prelude.pm from svn it loops forever
17:20 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "JS Error on Feather" (9 lines, 484B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13669
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17:22 cognominal Takahashi++ # http://piro.sakura.ne.jp/xul/xul.html.en
17:23 gaal brother: it certainly shouldn't loop :)   write a test?
17:23 iblech eric256: (back) hm, is /usr/bin/js missing on feather?
17:24 iblech leo__: Yep. In the future, we'll probably need /var/cache/pugs/js/modules/Prelude.js with appropriate measures that no one can precompile a evil module and store it as Prelude.js
17:24 iblech leo__: Meanwhile, you can use:
17:24 iblech pugs -BJS --p6preludepc=Prelude.js --testpc=Test.js -e '...'
17:25 eric256 there is no js on feather
17:26 iblech brother: Probably the problem is because pairs are still magical -- i.e. "ABCE-Z" got passed to trans by name (by the name "abce-z"). We're trying to change the spec, see p6l thread "Sane (less insane) pair semantics" and t/syntax/pairs.t
17:26 gaal iblech: there's been some attempts at fixage in 6.2.10's trans. apparently they weren't enough :(
17:26 iblech eric256: Ah. So apt-get install spidermonkey-bin is needed
17:27 iblech gaal: nod...
17:29 kolibrie Juerd: if you make those shirts, I'd buy one
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17:29 brother iblech: I can see the problem in each implementation of Prelide.pm
17:30 brother the expand subfunction is malfunction in both cases
17:30 brother gaal: How do I write a test for some expression not looping in infinity?
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17:32 iblech brother: Comment the actual test and add a fail "skipping hanging test"
17:32 iblech brother: E.g.
17:32 iblech skip "skipping hanging test"; # is foo(...), ...
17:32 gaal point. we need to add loop protection to the harness, but com to think of it that isn't portable :(
17:34 gaal bbiab
17:35 luqui has joined #perl6
17:35 eric256 iblech can you ping juerd and get him to install that?  or maybe he'll see this convo.. ;)
17:36 brother ok
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17:48 Juerd kolibrie: Good to know - thanks
17:50 Juerd iblech: spidermonkey is now installed on feather, including dev package
17:51 eric256 thanks Juerd
17:52 eric256 yea -BJS now works on feather
17:52 eric256 should the auto build on feather be doing make install as well?
17:54 autrijus you need root perm for that no?
17:55 eric256 well it wont let me install on my screen name...so probably
17:55 eric256 just wondering if that would make life easier....sometimes its a pain tracking down the right number of ../ ;)
17:55 eric256 if i prefix the build into my home directory would it install without root then?
17:56 autrijus mayyybe.
17:56 autrijus had not tried
17:56 eric256 lol
17:56 Lopo_ has joined #perl6
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17:56 eric256 does prefix work now?  the INSTALL file still says no
17:57 Lopo_ is now known as Lopo
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17:57 autrijus rafl, gaal: we *want* to expose many modules. we don't really dep on QC -- but PIL does -- and eventually new runcore too. hugs-options is unused.
17:57 autrijus I toyed with the idea of only exposing Pugs.hs
17:57 autrijus but I reasoned it can't hurt to expose everything at this stage.
17:57 mdiep are namespaces in Perl6 flat, hierarchical, or unspecified?
17:57 autrijus eric256: try and find out :)
17:58 autrijus mdiep: hierarchical, specified, not implemented.
17:58 mdiep autrijus: thanks. :-)
17:58 autrijus :)
17:59 autrijus for specs see S10..S12
18:01 iblech Juerd: (back) cool, thanks :)
18:01 iblech mdiep: And also see http://www.nntp.perl.org/gro​up/perl.perl6.language/23019
18:02 |uqu| has joined #perl6
18:02 eric256 ...anyone know a way to start mysql so that it can only be accessed from the shell?  for backing up?
18:02 luqui has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
18:03 cm there's some safe startup flag IIRC..
18:08 autrijus eric256: yes, set --bind-address=127.0.0.1
18:08 autrijus or something along that line
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18:16 brother If I make a patch and some test cases for $string.trans, where do I send it to?
18:17 vladtz has joined #perl6
18:20 Limbic_Region do you have a commit bit brother?
18:21 Limbic_Region and if not, what is your email address
18:22 brother nope, [email@hidden.address]
18:22 Limbic_Region sending you a commit bit
18:23 Limbic_Region invitation will expire in 14 days so be sure to sign up and commit the patches/tests soon ;-)
18:23 Limbic_Region are you using svn or svk?
18:23 brother svn
18:24 Limbic_Region ok - then I think it is svn add <file>
18:24 Limbic_Region svn ci -m "message about why"
18:25 Limbic_Region also - don't forget to update the AUTHORS file
18:26 Limbic_Region if you need more assistance, don't hesitate to ask
18:26 brother I'll do
18:27 Limbic_Region and welcome aboard
18:27 dada has quit IRC ("see Emily play")
18:29 Limbic_Region brother - please confirm you received the email - last time I sent an invitation it got "stuck" or something
18:34 brother confirmed
18:34 Limbic_Region danke
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18:48 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
18:48 Aankhen`` G'night.
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19:11 eric256 hmmm  can someone help me transfer files between two linux servers?
19:12 obra man scp;man rsync
19:13 eric256 thanks
19:16 eric256 thanks obra++ that made my day
19:17 |uqu| has joined #perl6
19:18 obra actually useful? cool
19:18 |uqu| has quit IRC (Client Quit)
19:19 eric256 extremely...normaly i ftp back and forth but this is WAY easier ;)
19:20 eric256 especialy since the servers didn't want to connect to each others FTP for some reason
19:20 obra ah :)
19:22 * eric256 wonders how many other people try to login to feather as root by accident
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19:48 * Limbic_Region pines for a p6 unpack that provides a way to "remember" where it left off in a string much like p5 regexen can
19:49 PerlJam Limbic_Region: we call those things "iterators"  and we don't have enough of them  :)
19:50 geoffb Limbic_Region, POS is exposed, right?  Seems like a simple wrapper . . . .
19:53 eric256 if i want to kill a process and kill pid isn't working? whats the next step?
19:53 brother kill -9 <pid>
19:53 eric256 thanks
19:59 dduncan has joined #perl6
20:04 Limbic_Region geoffb - POS has to do with regexen not unpacking
20:05 Limbic_Region well, not necessarily the next step I would take eric256 as there are more aggressive (but still catchable) signals to try before -9
20:06 Limbic_Region geoffb - imagine you are unpacking records of variable length where you need to read a couple of bytes that tell you how many more bytes to read for the current record
20:06 Limbic_Region with traditional unpack, you need to keep track of how many bytes you have read in a $skip buffer (using the x format)
20:06 Limbic_Region so next time you read you can start where you left off - having a built in mechanism would be so much nicer
20:07 Blicero has joined #perl6
20:08 Limbic_Region see http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=499988 for an example of where it would come in handy (assuming the DNA strand was in a scalar and not being read from a file)
20:08 Limbic_Region my solution fwiw probably breaks since the author is changing the 600k string to 6.5 million
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20:37 * eric256 curses MySQL
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20:40 geoffb Anyone know if L~R backlogs?
20:40 geoffb Well, just in case:
20:41 geoffb Limbic_Region, I was saying there is no reason that POS *couldn't* be applied with a wrapper func, to allow unpack and regexen to work together transparently.
20:41 geoffb The fact that unpack and regexen don't like each other is something I regard as a historical artifact, actually.
20:42 geoffb In fact, I can easily imagine the power of a protocol that could mix packed numerics with unpacked other data types,
20:42 geoffb using rules to handle the unpacked parts and unpack to handle the numerics . . . .
20:43 rantanplan_ has joined #perl6
20:46 Juerd Heh. The high bid on my laptop is nigerian.
20:46 obra um.
20:46 Juerd They visit auction sites now.
20:47 Juerd It would perhaps not be all that bad if something awful happened to that entire country.
20:47 Juerd But I shouldn't say such things.
20:47 Juerd Hello ,                                                                        
20:47 Juerd I dont understand dutch very well ....But I just have to inform you that I      
20:47 Juerd want to complete this deal asap.                                                
20:47 Juerd I want to send the item to My in-law presently in Nigeria and i want            
20:47 Juerd you to post the item  through tpgpost.
20:47 Juerd etc, etc
20:49 gaal Juerd: you probably like this site: http://www.419eater.com/
20:49 brother Shouldn't this work: @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') :: $k;
20:49 brother as in parse and do something
20:50 brother I get an "unexpected ":"\nexpecting operator or "!!"\nat <interactive> line 1, column 35"
20:50 eric256 ?eval my $k = "hello"; my @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') :: $k; $k
20:50 evalbot_7600 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting operator or "!!"
20:50 |uqu| brother, ??:: is spelled ??!! NOW
20:50 eric256 ?eval my $k = "hello"; my @kv = $k.isa(Str) ?? $k.split('') !! $k; $k
20:50 evalbot_7600 \"hello"
20:50 |uqu| heh, had to capitalize because of the exclamation points, it seems ;-)
20:51 brother Ohhh, newbie and my knowledge is already obsolete
20:51 Juerd gaal: I know that
20:51 eric256 lol
20:51 |uqu| brother, get used to it
20:51 Juerd gaal: Backscamming takes too much time
20:51 chip has joined #perl6
20:51 |uqu| we all pray for 6.0.0 when we're not allowed to break backwards compatibility anymore
20:51 chip hey guys.  autrijus still about?
20:51 |uqu| of course, assuming we like what it is the week we release :-)
20:52 |uqu| seen autrijus
20:52 jabbot |uqu|: autrijus was seen 2 hours 44 minutes 11 seconds ago
20:52 |uqu| is now known as luqui
20:52 chip darn
20:52 autrijus hmm?
20:52 luqui it appears so
20:53 dduncan I like ?? !! a lot better than any previous spellings
20:53 autrijus sigh, didn't get much done content-wise
20:54 luqui it ain't bad, it ain't bad
20:54 autrijus but format improved dramaticall
20:54 luqui link?
20:54 eric256 ummm.. anyone know why two versions of MySQL (4.1 and 4.1.1 or something very close) would have very different permission tables?
20:55 autrijus and my JS-fu improved as well ;)
20:55 autrijus I wonder if I'll end up rewriting Spork in JS ;)
20:55 autrijus luqui: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/haskell.xul
20:55 chip autrijus: hi
20:55 autrijus chip: hey!
20:55 chip autrijus: I'm going to put up a lexvar sketch (only a few months overdue!) in a day or two
20:56 luqui hooray, fixed-width left-aligned!
20:56 chip autrijus: Please update me on your requirements ... I figure pugs has evolved so I should re-ask.  I do remember conversations though
20:56 * luqui thinks perl should have pi.
20:56 * gaal wishes for a FF extension that does real full-screen in one keystroke
20:57 dduncan MySQL around that time was alpha version
20:57 gaal luqui: that' like a two line patch to Prim.hs :)
20:57 autrijus ?eval pi
20:57 evalbot_7600 3.141592653589793
20:57 autrijus thank you, next question? ;) (that's from S29)
20:57 luqui I thnk it's a zero line patch
20:57 gaal make that a zero-line patch
20:57 dduncan it only was declared stable at 4.1.8 ... so until then it is reasonable for things like permission tables to change
20:57 gaal there's another WTDI...
20:57 gaal ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION / 2
20:57 evalbot_7600 0.0
20:57 autrijus iblechbot: you there?
20:58 * luqui should read S29 and bring criticisms to p6l
20:58 luqui so maybe we can officialize it
20:58 autrijus chip: ok, you remember the hoisting?
20:58 dduncan fyi, I keep getting this at make time: Can't locate object method "new" via package "File::Temp" at /Volumes/Programming160/Pugs_svn​/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 141.
20:58 * eric256 breaks down crying in agony
20:58 eric256 lol
20:58 dduncan perhaps that's another thing to bundle with the JS thing
20:59 dduncan eric256, exactly what mysql do you have?
21:00 autrijus dduncan: fixed, committing
21:00 G2 has joined #perl6
21:00 eric256 on masterB: mysql  Ver 14.7 Distrib 4.1.13
21:00 autrijus chip: each block/closure will declare all lexicals in its scope before entry.
21:00 dduncan well, 4.1.13 is the newest
21:00 eric256 masterA: mysql  Ver 14.6 Distrib 4.1.5-gamma,
21:01 dduncan why did you mention 2 alpha versions?
21:01 autrijus chip: uplevel lexicals on both static (OUTER) and dynamic (CALLER) extent should be able to be looked up and enumerated efficiently.
21:01 eric256 there own Administrator will not connect to 4.1.13  it complains about the priviledge table lacking colums its expecting
21:01 dduncan with your permission tables question
21:01 chip autrijus: back; reading
21:02 chip autrijus: hoisting means that it's OK to consider a lexical declared at the beginning of the scope, rahter than at the line where it first appears, yes?
21:02 autrijus chip: yes.
21:02 autrijus the range is no longer parrot's business as far as pugs is concerned
21:02 dduncan hello chip, how's it going? ... fyi, at oscon portland I was the person sitting right in front of you on tuesday night
21:02 autrijus it'll be resolved statically.
21:03 dduncan you said then that you had a potential improvement in work
21:03 chip autrijus: What about this:    our $x; sub foo { eval '$x' and return; my $x = 1; $x; }
21:03 autrijus chip: Larry decrees: "erroneous".
21:03 chip Well.
21:04 autrijus chip: there are ways around it (it's the same problem as CALLER)
21:04 chip Yes, same problem.  Huh
21:05 chip OK, noted, will consider.
21:05 autrijus namely, have each eval"" store a snapshot of symbol extents
21:05 autrijus so $x in it gets rebound to $CALLER::OUTER::x
21:05 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:05 autrijus but again if both %CALLER and %OUTER is static and efficient
21:05 autrijus we can handle it in the codegen end.
21:06 dduncan eric256, I'm looking at the mysql change log between your versions ... something may have been added in that time
21:06 gaal autrijus: maybe this is more readable? `before ++ [pivot] ++ after`
21:06 * luqui thinks so too
21:06 gaal for a newcomer.
21:06 gaal dunno
21:06 autrijus gaal: sure
21:07 chip autrijus: I suppose we could also suggest a language-independent way to indicate 'this lex is out of scope right now, we suggest you ignore it'...
21:07 chip "we" = "Parrot people"
21:07 autrijus chip: sure, that would be fine with me
21:07 chip but I'm digressing further.  I think I understand your req.
21:07 chip autrijus: Will you be parsimonious in translating language blocks/closures into Parrot blocks/closures?
21:07 chip if $cond { print } e.g.
21:08 chip oh that's a bad example
21:08 chip if $var { print $var }
21:08 autrijus chip: Parrot is CPS, which means snapshotting and entering closures should really be as cheap as possible
21:08 evalbot_7600 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:08 autrijus so I'll probably do that at first
21:08 evalbot_7601 has joined #perl6
21:08 chip and if lexical list is static, then lexical mechanism shouldn't make things worse.  Got it
21:08 autrijus yes. exactly.
21:08 autrijus static means O(1) for arbitary depth on runtime
21:08 chip OK then.  Glad you were here
21:09 autrijus no prob :)
21:09 chip wait, not O(depth)?
21:09 chip oh, do you mean %OUTER or %CALLER?
21:09 autrijus OUTER
21:09 autrijus CALLER is O(n) of course
21:09 chip OK just checking :-)
21:09 autrijus CALLER is dynamic depth :)
21:10 luqui plus, CALLER is O(1), because nobody ever looks up higher than one frame ;-)
21:10 autrijus luqui: riiight... now how do I write &eval in perl6...
21:10 dduncan eric256, I notice that MySQL's manual has, for the first time, been split up by major version rather than having one manual for all of them ... as a result, some links are broken right now
21:10 dduncan can probably work around though
21:10 luqui autrijus, oh.  I get it.
21:11 luqui it's O(n) even if you look up just one frame
21:11 luqui that's what we get for saying "n" without defining it
21:11 autrijus lol :)
21:11 autrijus forall n. n
21:11 svnbot6 r7601 | autrijus++ | * PIL2JS.pm: Don't use File::Temp->new for bugward combatability.
21:11 svnbot6 r7601 | autrijus++ |   Reported by ddundan.
21:11 chip autrijus: which leads me to ask, do you need both recursive and non-recursive %CALLER and %OUTER?
21:12 eric256 lol. is there maybe a script i need to run to fix the permissions?
21:12 eric256 where wuold i even look for such a thing?
21:12 autrijus chip: oh btw, larry also wants %MY and %OUR, which points to lex-only pad and pkg pad respectively
21:12 chip "bugward compatible" heh
21:12 autrijus "combatible"
21:12 chip even better
21:13 autrijus chip: and the pkg pad would be prone to runtime addition, unlike the lex pad
21:13 dduncan autrijus, 'make' now succeeds again thanks to that change
21:13 autrijus chip: this is totally just p5, so I can elide details
21:13 autrijus dduncan: cool
21:14 chip autrijus: Well, you're actually kind of not, I fear.
21:14 chip autrijus: There's no such thing as a "package pad" in p5
21:14 autrijus there is this hash thing, yes.
21:15 autrijus which works just like any other hash except you can't tie it
21:15 autrijus most frustratingly
21:15 chip All pads are attached to subs, just some subs are anonymous, e.g. the sub that holds & runs the code at package level (outside any sub definition)
21:15 autrijus so if in parrot I can just take a ParrotHash
21:15 chip At the end of compiling any sub, its pad is known & fixed and cannot change
21:15 autrijus to represent the namespace
21:15 chip That's p5
21:15 autrijus then I don't need to use the lex system for that
21:15 chip (for "pad" read "list of lexical vars stored in pad at runtime")
21:16 chip autrijus: you do, I think
21:16 chip consider
21:16 autrijus except then the lookup process would need to be smart enough to know when to look into the pkg-hash and when to look into the lexpad
21:16 chip Foo.pm:   my $x
21:16 chip that's not in any package
21:16 autrijus sure, that is the diff between %OUR and %MY
21:16 chip not quite
21:16 chip (almost but not quite)
21:16 dduncan fyi, I can debug this later since its low priority, but it seems like editing config.yml doesn't have the effects I expect on my system; eg, setting smoke_concurrent to 2 does not result in 2 pugs processes running in parallel during make smoke ... but the file is obviously being read during 'make' because my changed values are displayed
21:16 autrijus mmm?
21:16 chip let's leave aside %OUR until after the %MY is completely shared understanding
21:17 autrijus ok.
21:17 autrijus Foo.pm: my $x
21:17 autrijus it's attached to the closure known as "file"
21:17 chip right.  p5 rule is that lexicals always win, and package variable is the fallback (unless 'strict vars', in which case lexicals are the only choice for no-:: and package is the only choice for ::)
21:17 autrijus yes, and p6 is the same.
21:17 chip Great.
21:18 chip So is %OUR just syntactic sugar for %My::Package:: ?
21:18 autrijus larry said so, yes
21:18 dduncan I imagine that it may be related to this ...
21:18 autrijus I'm a bit uneasy about that
21:18 dduncan configure: No haddock found / configure: No happy found / configure: No alex found / configure: No cpphs found
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21:18 autrijus because it's not that related to "our"'s semantic which is pkg->lex aliasing
21:18 dduncan I don't know what any of those do, and perhaps one is required
21:19 autrijus but then %PACKAGE:: is a bit long
21:19 autrijus but anyway whatever the syntax
21:19 chip autrijus: Oh, OK.  I thought %OUR and our() were related in p6
21:19 dduncan for the parallel processes
21:19 autrijus there will be such a functionality.
21:19 autrijus chip: they are "related" but you can see things in %OUR that nobody declared with "our"
21:20 chip autrijus: I would *think* that the _only_ effect of our() would be that %MY contains an alias for something that appears in some package
21:20 autrijus chip: right, exactly, yes.
21:20 chip OK excellet
21:20 autrijus so our() modifies %MY
21:20 autrijus which is the source of my concern about %OUR
21:20 autrijus but that's not related to parrot :)
21:20 chip well, it also adds to %OUR.  But agreed, it's SEP
21:20 autrijus SEP++
21:21 chip So now ... the lookup primitive
21:21 autrijus yes.
21:22 autrijus statically we know our current package name, our current closure (i.e. lexical scope)
21:22 chip If a literal variable appears in the code, you could emit something that would let Parrot reach directly to pad by numeric index.  I can come up with that.
21:22 autrijus I'd prefer the translation be done at PIR level
21:22 autrijus but if this is not desirable
21:22 autrijus then I can do it in my codegen
21:22 autrijus although that means duplicate effort
21:22 autrijus for other languages
21:23 autrijus "the translation" is the process of having "$x" resolved into a number
21:23 autrijus provided it's in scope of course
21:23 chip I was thinking that lex vs. dynamic rules may be language-specific.  If you could at least make the decision that you want a lex or a dyn, you don't have to translate the lex name to a number
21:24 autrijus sure!
21:24 autrijus I can know I have a lex
21:24 chip  OK
21:24 autrijus I just don't want to output hard to debug numbers
21:24 wilx has joined #perl6
21:24 chip oh I sure agree with that
21:24 chip I don't want to have debug numbers either :-)
21:24 autrijus great
21:24 autrijus :)
21:24 eric256 dduncan thanks for looking, i'v kludged away past my empasse for the time being..evil computers
21:25 dduncan okay
21:26 chip autrijus: Can you emit outer functions before inner?  Given:   sub foo { my sub bar { ... } }, can you emit foo in full before starting to emit bar?
21:27 autrijus for some value of "in full"
21:27 autrijus how do I refer to calls to "bar"?
21:27 eric256 your pointer about the documentation helped my ultimate problem, gramar for setting permissinos changed (at least relating to replication) but that was hidden because i was only seeing 5.0 docs. ;)
21:27 autrijus just lookup &bar?
21:27 autrijus sure, I can do that
21:27 chip autrijus: er, but what if it's anonymous...
21:27 autrijus then I'll need to invent syms
21:27 chip as most of them will be.
21:28 autrijus which is called lambda lifting
21:28 autrijus and sure I can do that.
21:29 chip Reason I ask, I'm pondering whether the pasm for &bar may referring to a fully populated Sub structure for &foo, including its lex list
21:29 chip s/may/may require/
21:29 autrijus sure, that is fine with me
21:29 chip otherwise, doing automatic %OUTER searches would be difficult
21:29 autrijus yup
21:29 chip ok, not decided, glad that's an option
21:30 autrijus anything local -- that is, *not* whole-program analysis, is easy to do
21:30 autrijus an example of the latter will be to find all call sites of &foo.
21:32 brother ?eval 'foobar'.trans( ['A'..'C'] => "a-c" )
21:32 evalbot_7601 "foobar"
21:32 brother bahhh
21:32 brother ?eval 'ABCDE'.trans( ['A'..'D'] => "a-d" )
21:32 evalbot_7601 "acCDE"
21:32 eric256 that was interesting
21:33 brother yup, adding it to my tests
21:33 wilx has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:34 brother in the trans method ['a' .. 'c'] is equivalent to 'a b c'
21:35 brother 4 hours and counting since I just wanted to do $string.trans('a-z','n-za-m')
21:35 wilx has joined #perl6
21:35 eric256 lol
21:36 luqui has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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21:38 brother So I've fixed my new teste but broke "ABCXYZ".trans( ['A'..'C'] => ['a'..'c'], <X Y Z> => <x y z> ),"abcxyz"
21:38 eric256 you just need to coolapse the spaces in key...but that seems wrong because then you could tr a space.
21:39 eric256 actualy that whole syntax seems wrong
21:39 eric256 ?eval 'ABCDE'.trans( 'A-D' => "a-d" )
21:39 evalbot_7601 "abcdE"
21:40 brother ?eval 'brother'.trans('a-z','n-za-m')
21:40 evalbot_7601 "brother"
21:40 eric256 well you shouldn't have broken that! lol
21:41 brother uhmmmm
21:49 eric256 as it is currently that exand sub has no ability to handly multiple -'s
21:49 brother that is what I have done
21:49 brother but not submitted
21:49 eric256 ohhh
21:50 fglock__ has left "Fui embora"
21:50 brother it was worse than no ability
21:50 brother 6.2.10 did loop for *very* long time
21:50 brother "ABCDEF".trans( 'AB-E' => 'ab-e' )
21:50 eric256 you didn't break anything. right now it only has the ability to handle (string, string)
21:51 wilx has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:52 eric256 could you submit what you have? got me all interested then mention you have it localy. lol
21:52 wilx has joined #perl6
21:52 brother ?eval "ABCXYZ".trans( ['A'..'C'] => ['a'..'c'], <X Y Z> => <x y z> )
21:52 evalbot_7601 "abcxyz"
21:52 brother array refs both places works too
21:53 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:54 eric256 the key to that was both places. they are getting coerched into strings with spaces in them
21:54 eric256 coherced? something like that.
21:54 brother right
21:55 Odin- coerced
21:55 brother coerced,
21:55 eric256 which i don't think is technicaly *working*
21:55 eric256 since it is building tr/a b c/A B C/  ....
21:55 Odin- Pronounced, if Im' not wrong, "ko-erst", displaying the awesome orthographic abilities of English. ;)
21:55 Odin- Err. "I'm", that should be.
21:56 eric256 Odin- unless your mad then its "ko-ers-ed" you!
21:56 eric256 commit your current one brother and let use see it. or nopaste it
21:59 brother submitted
22:00 wilx has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:00 wilx has joined #perl6
22:00 brother brute force and ignorance
22:00 svnbot6 r7602 | pmakholm++ | add support for multiple ranges in $string.trans
22:01 eric256 nice. i like it...much better than the last version
22:01 eric256 my @ks = $k.isa(Str) ?? expand($k) !! $k;
22:02 eric256 i beleive right there is where you are telling it not to coerce into a string for the key....hmmm. but it should realy still work
22:02 * eric256 scratches head
22:03 brother (~ $k).split('')
22:04 brother or just split($k,'')
22:04 brother split(' ',$k)
22:06 wolverian for a second there I thought "huh, perl6 does indexing with !! now too?"
22:07 dduncan smoke of 7601 for darwin is up
22:09 eric256 left side is always going to be a string because of =>
22:09 eric256 the right side is not
22:09 eric256 so the right side is being taken as a list and the left is being joined with ' '
22:09 evalbot_7601 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:10 evalbot_7602 has joined #perl6
22:11 eric256 i don't think the specs can be right because you can't tell if they meant to have spaces in there or if the spaces where autogenerated
22:11 brother "ABCDE".trans( ['A' .. 'E'] => "a-e" )
22:11 brother I'm getting tires
22:11 brother -s+d
22:12 eric256 if you drop your ?? !! magic it seems to work fine
22:13 eric256 well not fine...my @vs = expand(~$v); is getting there
22:15 eric256 well you can't mix and match [] and " " because of the stringification...i think it realy needs to be posted to p6l and see what it should realy be.
22:15 eric256 or drop the => and make it take a list instead of a hash
22:17 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "different version of trans" (37 lines, 1.1K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13677
22:17 svnbot6 r7603 | pmakholm++ | Fixes $string.trans with array references on both sides
22:17 brother Now I belive everything that worked before is working again
22:18 eric256 that comes out pretty well behaved as long as you don't miss the =>
22:18 brother Well, that is a simpler solution
22:19 eric256 you can drop the check on @ks becuase the key will always be a string....unless someone changed that too
22:19 brother except when you like to do something like $string.trans(['{', '-', '}'] => ['(', '-', ')'])
22:20 eric256 wont matter. => is going to coerce the left side to a string
22:20 brother right, broken by design
22:20 eric256 hehe
22:21 eric256 just saying no need to check because by the time it gets to trans the left side is already a string, unless we drop the => (which i think we should because it doesn't realy mean what we want it just looks pretty)
22:21 brother Well, time to sleep in CEST
22:21 eric256 later
22:24 evalbot_7602 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:24 evalbot_7603 has joined #perl6
22:26 brother 5 hours for getting ROT13 to work, not bad....
22:27 buu That's impressive!
22:28 brother almost 2 KLoC/year
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22:35 cognominal has joined #perl6
22:36 Juerd wolverian: Still awake?
22:36 wolverian Juerd, yes.
22:36 Juerd wolverian: You asked something about the laptop, but my scroll buffer is screwed because of an /upgrade
22:36 Juerd a /upgrade. I do pronounce the / :)
22:37 elmex is there s way to tell parrot gc how much ram to use maximally ?
22:37 elmex it uses up to 200MB RSS here when running...
22:37 wolverian Juerd, my last question was whether it had .g, but you answered that.
22:37 Juerd Okay
22:38 Juerd wolverian: I've had a 730 euro bid on it. From some guy in Nigeria who wants me to send it there :)
22:38 wolverian wow :)
22:38 Juerd wolverian: Yep, they visit auction sites now.
22:38 wolverian he'll send the money to you after you've sent the laptop and the money transfer fee to his account?
22:39 Juerd Something like that, yes
22:39 eric256 wolverian++ LOL
22:39 Juerd eric256: I don't think he was joking :)
22:39 wolverian I wasn't. sad as it is. :)
22:39 wolverian I'm buying a Fujitsu-Siemens laptop on saturday
22:39 wolverian my first laptop :)
22:39 eric256 the sad part is *someone* must be falling for those scams. Juerd i know, but I couldn't figure out how buying something could be a nigerian scheme.
22:40 Juerd wolverian: Those are reasonable
22:40 wolverian Juerd, business or consumer?
22:40 Juerd wolverian: There ought to be no difference
22:40 wolverian oh, okay.
22:40 Juerd The question is: is it a portable desktop machine, or a mobile device?
22:40 Juerd Ruggedness counts.
22:40 wolverian right. and weight, I guess. I don't have experience.
22:41 Juerd Will you be moving it a lot? Using it in bed? Outside?
22:41 eric256 new IBM think pads are nice sturdy laptops...spendy, but nice
22:41 wolverian Juerd, yes.
22:41 Juerd Then go for thinkpads
22:41 wolverian my budget is.. small.
22:41 Juerd eric256: New being anything under the age of 10 :)
22:41 Juerd eric256: Or 15
22:41 Juerd Or actually, I don't recall IBM has ever made unsturdy laptops
22:41 Juerd Except the G series
22:41 * eric256 only has experience with thinkpad in the last 4 months
22:41 Juerd Which was a 2-model series which was then ended :)
22:41 Juerd wolverian: Buy a used IBM
22:41 eric256 used to love HP,  but these IBM machines are just sweet.
22:42 wolverian Juerd, I'm not sure. that sounds more adventurous.
22:43 Juerd It is more adventurous.
22:43 Juerd How large is your budget, by the way? There are sub-1000 thinkpads nowadays.
22:43 eric256 trust him, you realy do want a sturdy laptop. it makes all the difference
22:43 wolverian Juerd, about 1000 euros
22:44 Juerd wolverian: Then why not buy a nice IBM one? Do you need a high speed 3D engine in it?
22:44 eric256 i have an HP thats been cracked since ilke the 10th month i owned it (kept meaning to get it repaired but you know how that goes)....the thing just never felt realy tough, the IBM's though, the second you pick one up you'll love it
22:44 wolverian because the X41 costs 1750 euros
22:44 * wolverian notices the "other models" button
22:44 eric256 lol
22:45 eric256 http://search.ebay.com//search/search.​dll?from=R40&amp;satitle=ibm+thinkpad
22:45 eric256 ones about to go for 150bucks
22:45 wolverian "call dealer for price". 1) you asked me what country I live in, so you could localise 2) calling sucks
22:45 eric256 older...but cheap
22:46 Juerd wolverian: I have an X41 :)
22:46 Juerd wolverian: They're about the most expensive series, and for several reasons
22:46 wolverian Juerd, so, are 15" laptops way too heavy to carry around?
22:46 Juerd wolverian: Depends on your strength
22:46 eric256 nah.. 15 is good, 17 is a bit heavy. ;)
22:46 wolverian I'm a CS student
22:47 Juerd I have almost no muscle left in my arms and hands, because of my RSI condition, and yes, for me, it is now too heavy.
22:47 wolverian ("strength? what's that?")
22:47 Juerd But it used to be just perfect.
22:47 Juerd wolverian: There's normal and there's weak.
22:47 wolverian I'm not excessively weak, no.
22:47 geoffb wolverian, a proper carrying bag / backpack makes a huge difference.  And the difference between a well designed back and a cheap bag is pretty severe.
22:47 wolverian the Fujitsu laptop I was looking at weighs 3kg
22:47 Juerd So does an IBM R51 or R52
22:48 Juerd Which are the models I would recommend you
22:48 wolverian geoffb, right. I'll definitely be getting a bag
22:48 Juerd Sturdy but affordable
22:48 wolverian Juerd, ah. I'll check them out
22:48 wolverian thanks a lot.
22:48 eric256 "well designed back" --- "mom i told you to get your back redesigned or it would wear out before you where 40"
22:48 geoffb eric256, heh
22:48 wolverian heh
22:48 Juerd Perhaps you can find a nicely discounted R51 (they're out of production)
22:49 geoffb I just know that my shoulders got a lot happier the day my wife got me a really nice bag to replace the so-so ones I'd had
22:49 wolverian oh, wow
22:49 wolverian these are cheap
22:49 Juerd non-ibm notebook manufacturers must hate me.
22:49 Juerd And IBM must love me...
22:49 wolverian oh, jesus, that was before VAT
22:49 wolverian thanks for putting that in the large numbers
22:49 wolverian and the +VAT price in really small
22:49 eric256 VAT?
22:49 Juerd wolverian: industrial BUSINESS machines :)
22:49 wolverian eric256, value added tax
22:49 geoffb Value Added Tax?
22:49 Juerd wolverian: They're used to selling to people who don't pay vat :)
22:49 eric256 european thing?
22:49 Juerd eric256: Yes
22:49 Odin- Juerd: I thought it was "international"?
22:49 geoffb VAT == Tarrif?
22:49 Juerd It's like sales tax
22:50 Odin- VAT - Value Added Tax
22:50 wolverian Juerd, right. they asked me where I live, thoguh
22:50 wolverian thoguh
22:50 wolverian argh.
22:50 wolverian "though".
22:50 geoffb I meant, is it really a sales tax, or is it an import tarriff?
22:50 Juerd But businesses get back what they paid to suppliers
22:50 wolverian and had localised the site mostly.
22:50 Odin- It's not a tarriff, no.
22:50 Juerd It's a sales tax
22:50 wolverian Juerd, IBM is listing R51 here
22:51 Juerd wolverian: Find resellers with stock :)
22:51 wolverian auugh!! 1400 euros
22:51 wolverian what the hell.
22:51 eric256 generaly they don't make the big number include things like tax or shipping.  wanna make ti look cheap...is VAT realy high enough to make a difference?
22:51 Juerd eric256: around 20% usually
22:51 wolverian eric256, it's 22% here
22:51 Odin- eric256: Yeah.
22:51 geoffb uggg
22:51 Juerd eric256: It's not like sales tax :)
22:51 Odin- 24.5% here.
22:51 * geoffb thinks 8% is brutal . . . .
22:51 Juerd eric256: It's tax for the added value only, and on the end price
22:51 Odin- Which, I believe, is the highest VAT in Europe.
22:52 Juerd geoffb: Yes, but it's 8% on 8% on 8% on 8% ...
22:52 wolverian Juerd, the IBM laptops I can afford as new all have 256mb RAM. :/
22:52 Juerd wolverian: Save for more RAM later
22:52 wolverian Juerd, is the R50e okay?
22:52 Juerd wolverian: Have you seen the private message by the way?
22:52 wolverian I heard the -e models suck
22:52 Juerd I'd avoid the -e's
22:52 Juerd They're bare
22:52 geoffb Juerd, I'm not sure that's true.  Wholesale and all.
22:52 wolverian Juerd, no, I haven't
22:53 wolverian Juerd, they're all I can afford :)
22:53 Juerd geoffb: In any case, it's not as painful as it looks. It's a very different system.
22:53 geoffb Juerd, have you registered your nick?
22:53 Juerd Could be
22:53 geoffb freenode's attempt to swat a meat bee with a sledgehammer
22:53 Juerd Probably I registered one time to be able to join a certain channel. In general, I dislike IRC "services".
22:53 wolverian heh.
22:54 Juerd Are private messages disabled now?
22:54 Odin- That's what the notice says, yes.
22:54 geoffb Juerd, they are if you haven't logged in
22:54 eric256 crap  20% tax..thats just rude
22:54 Juerd 00:48 [freenode] -!- Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam problems, but you can always message a
22:54 Juerd          staffer. Please register! ( http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg )
22:54 Juerd Jesus fucking chr... Argh, I hate freenode.
22:54 Juerd eric256: It is not sales tax!
22:54 geoffb And from the way people refer to it, I'm guessing it's not obvious
22:55 Juerd eric256: The price excluding tax will be much lower
22:55 wolverian I think I'm going to have to sacrifice either features or ruggedness
22:55 eric256 wow. thats a bit overkill. explains why nothingmuch never got my responses to him, and he just thought i was crazy
22:55 * geoffb is personally of the opinion that advertising prices without tax already included is government-sanctioned fraud . . . but I may be a hardliner
22:56 Odin- And the tax can be recuperated by certain parties.
22:56 wolverian geoffb, it IS illegal here, I think
22:56 eric256 Juerd...I never said it *was* sales take...touchy subject? ;)
22:56 wolverian or at least no-one does it
22:56 Odin- Don't remember the specific EU rules, though.
22:56 wolverian except for IBM
22:56 Juerd I forgot my password.
22:56 wolverian (who are apparently noobs when it comes to EU)
22:57 Juerd eric256: Yes. Touchy because ignorant people always cry when they hear the percentages, and this hasn't changed in over ten years.
22:57 geoffb wolverian, ah
22:57 Odin- wolverian: "EU? Ewww..." :D
22:57 geoffb Mars . . . now *there's* a good government . . .
22:57 Juerd geoffb: Businesses eventually don't pay VAT
22:57 eric256 government taking 20% = rude...regardless of what you call it or how long it has been that way.
22:57 Juerd geoffb: It's required here to list prices excl. VAT for businesses, incl. VAT for consumers.
22:58 geoffb Juerd, interesting.
22:58 Odin- eric256: Someone else taking 20% = rude, too, whether you call it "interest", "rent" or "profit". :>
22:58 Juerd eric256: With sales tax, the government takes much more than the x% you see as a customer.
22:58 Juerd eric256: There's hidden taxes all the way through the chain
22:59 Juerd That's different with VAT
22:59 eric256 Juerd - in some cases. depeds on the product.
22:59 geoffb Here in the U.S. sales tax is something ads have in the hyper-fine print, if they say it at all, and TV commercials get an auctioneer to say "price not including tax, license, doc fees, and mob cut" at 4000 wpm
22:59 eric256 geoffb++
22:59 Odin- Well, then you have a case *for* VAT already.
23:00 Juerd geoffb: All stores aimed at consumers (practically all stores) have to include taxes in all prices. Taxes aren't even listed, prices excluding taxes are neither. People stay blissfully unaware.
23:00 eric256 VAT is all taxes that went into generateing that product?  /me doubts that, but that might just be my capatalist upbringing... BTW i don't care what the manufacturer had to pay in taxes. ;)
23:00 Odin- As Juerd said, ads usually *must* include VAT when aimed at individuals.
23:00 Juerd wolverian: Anyway, since I can't privmsg you... If you want, I can help out by selling you a thinkpad without profit
23:00 Juerd wolverian: I'd still have to charge VAT, unless you're a business or can abuse someone elses :)
23:01 Odin- Juerd: O_o COMMUNIST!
23:01 eric256 individuals have to charge other individuals VAT? just put it on ebay with a buy now button. lol of course you risk someone else clicking first. ;)
23:01 Juerd eric256: I have a company
23:01 eric256 5oclock and all is finaly well today. ;) tamed the savage databases now home to clean house. lol
23:02 eric256 Juerd - ahh!
23:02 eric256 later
23:02 geoffb 4 PM and still haven't managed to get my muse on
23:02 eric256 has left
23:02 Juerd 01:00 < geoffb> Mars . . . now *there's* a good government . . .
23:02 Juerd I was just watching B5 an hour ago :)
23:03 wolverian Juerd, hmm, I don't know if it helps, as I think I would still have to pay more than my budget allows
23:03 geoffb Not the Mars government I was thinking of . . . :-)
23:03 Juerd wolverian: Depends - sometimes I can get an R51 for 700 ex vat
23:03 geoffb .oO( Damn the network for killing Excalibur!  Just when it was hitting a stride. )
23:03 wolverian Juerd, oh, wow. new?
23:04 Juerd wolverian: Yes.
23:04 Juerd wolverian: I can check current prices tomorrow if you wish.
23:04 wolverian I would marry your dad for that.
23:04 Juerd I can't guarantee they're currently overstocked, of course
23:04 Juerd But I've been lucky before
23:04 wolverian oh, of course, I understand. please check if you have time. :) I'm in no hurry with the purchase
23:04 Juerd I'll let you know
23:04 wolverian thanks a lot. Juerd++
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23:05 Juerd Oh, and VAT here is only 19% ;)
23:05 Juerd One thing: should anything break, you will have to run it through IBM directly
23:05 * geoffb is somewhat sorry he didn't jump on the Dell 50% off sales before the company realized they were losing money doing that
23:05 wolverian Juerd, :) that is fine. how long is the guarantee?
23:05 Juerd This is the fastest solution anyway, and they have international support, but usually you have a choice, and that I cannot provide of course :)
23:06 Juerd wolverian: 1 year -- IBM unfortunately doesn't do 3 years on the cheaper models
23:06 wolverian Juerd, oh, and if we stay somewhere around 1000 euros and you can make a small profit with it that's fine too.
23:06 wolverian Juerd, can I extend it?
23:06 Juerd I'll first call for a quote tomorrow
23:07 Juerd I have no idea - I'll ask
23:07 wolverian thankyou again. you are a really nice person :)
23:07 Juerd People here say otherwise :)
23:08 wolverian maybe you should sell them laptops too..
23:08 geoffb You can be nice and direct at the same time
23:09 wolverian Juerd, oh, and don't believe them. you really are nice.
23:10 Juerd Heh
23:11 Juerd geoffb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT should you care
23:15 rafl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:15 geoffb Juerd, OK, thanks
23:18 Qiang has quit IRC ("home")
23:20 wolverian Juerd, still there?
23:20 Juerd I think so
23:20 wolverian Juerd, okay. :) what was that Fjallraven pack you bought?
23:21 Juerd Dependler
23:21 Juerd It's ugly and not entirely comfortable
23:21 Juerd But I like it anyway. It's very practical.
23:21 wolverian ah, found it.
23:21 wolverian it's kind of.. blockish
23:21 Juerd Yes
23:21 Juerd The aluminium frame inside it ensures it stays that way
23:22 Juerd It's a perfect seat to use while waiting for a train
23:22 wolverian hehe.
23:22 Juerd It's meant for it too.
23:22 wolverian it's not that ugly, actually
23:22 wolverian some stickers and such and it's almost pretty
23:22 Juerd I'd recommend using a laptop sleeve with this bag
23:22 Juerd That's much easier and better for your laptop in practice
23:23 Juerd Than using the straps in the bag
23:23 wolverian laptop sleeve?
23:23 Juerd Yes
23:23 Juerd See the SleeveCase product on sfbags.com
23:23 Juerd That one's expensive, there are less expensive ones.
23:23 Juerd But this is a good example, and I know the url without having to look it up :)
23:24 wolverian thanks :)
23:25 wolverian Juerd, those aren't that expensive
23:26 geoffb Juerd, not to open a wound or anything, but according to that wikipedia page, the difference between VAT and sales tax is mostly one of accounting and who sends what to the government -- the gouge to the customer ending up identical.  So then it is appropriate for someone to say "20%?  That's brutal!"  Or am I missing something?
23:27 wolverian I'll go sleep now
23:27 wolverian bye :)
23:27 geoffb bye, wolverian
23:27 Juerd geoffb: I probably don't understand sales tax then
23:28 Juerd I thought that sales tax was applied on every level.
23:28 Juerd It apparently is not.
23:28 Juerd Still, I don't think it's brutal, 20%
23:28 Juerd That is, as long as stuff like food goes at reduced rates
23:28 geoffb Fair enough, I was just checking my understanding.
23:28 geoffb Juerd, right
23:28 Juerd Taxes have to be paid anyway
23:29 Juerd One way or another
23:29 Juerd Let people who spend more pay more. It makes sense to me.
23:32 geoffb My dad (a retired financial consultant) used to say "Taxation is policy."  By which I think he meant "at least as much a policy decision as a method to get money for government services"
23:32 Juerd I understand neither
23:33 wolverian oh, Juerd
23:33 geoffb Though in most ways money doesn't terribly interest me, I think understanding taxation would tell me a lot about how the world works and how governments *want* it to work
23:33 Juerd I hate paying taxes, and would hate it much less if I were convinced the money was spent right.
23:33 wolverian Juerd, apparently the person actually in charge of paying for the laptop wants to use a "pay $foo sum a month for two years" scheme
23:34 Juerd wolverian: Then I cannot be of help
23:34 geoffb For instance, he once explained the various tax incentives for first-time home buyers by saying "Governments like home owners -- they are fundamentally stabilizing."
23:34 wolverian right, that's understandable :)
23:34 wolverian I'll see if a loan is possible tomorrow
23:34 wolverian then I could pay you directly anyway
23:35 wolverian damn, why do I think of asking questions so late? :)
23:35 Juerd A loan is exactly the same thing, except the buyer has to handle it :)
23:36 Juerd (It's usually a little less expensive too, but this depends on a lot)
23:36 wolverian right
23:37 wolverian I can take it myself too, but I don't know how students rank as loan takers
23:37 wolverian (I mean, I don't know if I can get a loan myself, but I'll check.)
23:38 wolverian weird. why doesn't HTTP::Headers overload bool and ""?
23:38 wolverian er - HTTP::Response, that is
23:38 wolverian oh well, that's perl5.
23:39 Juerd Because it's old, and before overloading was commonly accepted :)
23:39 Juerd Now, probably for backwards compatibility
23:40 wolverian right.
23:41 geoffb autrijus, your Haskell slides are looking pretty good
23:43 Juerd wolverian: I just recalled they have a web site.
23:43 Juerd wolverian: And that I have a password for it
23:43 wolverian Juerd, oh, nice.
23:43 Juerd wolverian: Best thing at this moment is an R52 for 799 ex vat
23:43 Juerd wolverian: However, it is a Dutch model.
23:44 wolverian dutch keyboard?
23:44 Juerd Possibly
23:45 Juerd As IBM is the only company foolish enough to sell dutch keyboards
23:45 Juerd (We use american keyboards)
23:45 Juerd I'll call them tomorrow
23:45 Juerd To ask what keyboard this one has
23:45 Juerd They have but one in stock
23:46 Juerd Oh, it's a high resolution one
23:46 Juerd 1400x1050 on 15"
23:46 Juerd That's odd, for ibm :)
23:46 leo__ geoffb: I saw the preview of your next column - I'm very interested in reading more
23:47 geoffb leo__, the code optimization one?
23:47 wolverian Juerd, that would be nice. :)
23:47 leo__ yup that one
23:48 geoffb leo__, if that's the one you meant, I just started writing it a few minutes ago, when I came up with a good opening line.  :-)
23:48 dolmen has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:48 leo__ heh - then I shouldn't interrupt you
23:49 leo__ keep on writing'
23:49 geoffb :-)
23:50 * geoffb hopes it turns out OK . . . this one may be a tad difficult
23:50 leo__ anyway, I saw you mentioned profiling tools, cachegrind and such
23:51 Juerd wolverian: None of the suppliers seem to have any r51s left in stock. That is unfortunate.
23:51 mrborisguy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:51 leo__ here are some numbers I've investigated some time ago:
23:51 leo__ http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.​internals/browse_thread/thread/2206aea97ae​3c271/a72974934d1deb7d%23a72974934d1deb7d?​sa=X&amp;oi=groupsr&amp;start=0&amp;num=3
23:51 joepurl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:52 wolverian Juerd, oh, too bad. thanks for checking, though.
23:52 geoffb leo__, if you have links to some of those tools, that would save me some serious time, as I had not searched for links yet, which is always a bit of a drain.
23:52 wolverian Juerd, I appreciate it.
23:52 leo__ I'm just using cachegrind from the valgrind package
23:52 leo__ and gprof out of the box
23:53 Juerd wolverian: I'll ask about the r52's keyboard
23:53 Juerd For now, good night
23:53 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:53 leo__ http://valgrind.org/
23:53 geoffb Ugh, is there a way to tell google groups to switch to monospace fonts for the email text?
23:53 geoffb leo__, OK, thanks.
23:53 Juerd geoffb: Use the old interface
23:53 Juerd geoffb: It has a link somewhere, IIRC
23:53 geoffb Juerd, sigh
23:54 geoffb Juerd, fair enough
23:54 Juerd The old interface is better in every way anyway
23:54 geoffb You'd think someone at Google would have more clue than to screw that one up
23:54 leo__ there is clickable item on that pakge
23:54 geoffb Ah, duh, finally saw it, thanks leo__
23:54 Juerd By being dutch, I get the old interface automatically :)
23:54 Juerd Good night
23:54 leo__ Fixed font - Proportional fon
23:55 geoffb leo__, yep
23:55 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:55 wolverian Juerd, thankyou. I'm interested if the keyboard is sane and I can get that loan :)
23:55 geoffb g'night Juerd
23:56 * leo__ thought that such a long link could also contain my setting for a fixed font ;-)
23:57 geoffb heh
23:58 leo__ geoffb: the numbers of the stats WRT parrot don't apply at all now, but perl/python/lua should still hold
23:58 geoffb OOC, what would be right stats for parrot now?

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