Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-16

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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02:18 scook0 iblech++ # for fixing named-args with non-bareword LHSs
02:18 scook0 (of course, `foo( ($lhs) => $rhs )` is still broken, but I don't see an easy fix for that)
02:18 scook0 and it's something we can live with for now
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03:43 svnbot6 r7636 | scook0++ | * Tests for problems in current demagicalized-pair implementation
03:43 svnbot6 r7636 | scook0++ | (Unfortunately, two of these inexplicably hard-parsefail.)
03:46 pasteling "putter" at 66.30.119.55 pasted "summary of basic -CPerl5 status" (56 lines, 3.5K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13722
03:47 putter fyi.
03:48 putter very basic - did -CPerl5 have any output, did it eval() ok, and did pugs complain.
03:51 putter it would be nice to have a pil-uncompiler, ie, a pil->p6 emitter.  the generated p6 would then be run under test/smoke instead of the original p6.  providing a roundtrip test of pil generation.
03:53 putter anything test which failed on the roundtrip, but not under normal pugs, would indicate a bug in pil or pil->p6.
03:54 putter of course, as pil2js comes to have coverage equal to hs pugs, it could serve this role.  but a pil->p6 would be much simpler (no runtime), and thus less ambiguous.
03:54 putter cheers &
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06:07 gaal Juerd: it isn't available through debian, unfortunately, and I can't be sure it won't break future upgrades (though I don't see why it should), so I'm not installing it for now.
06:08 gaal rafl_: could you please give the complete one-or-three-liner I need to test this from scratch? Just apt-get source and the dpkg command you mentioned?
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07:25 brother Is svn down or is it just my connection?
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07:34 scook0 brother: all of openfoundry seems to be down :(
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07:37 r0nny hoi
07:41 scook0 hi r0nny
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07:46 brother Ehmmm
07:47 brother ? sub foo (*%named, Pair *@pairs) { say "hash"; say %named.perl; say "list"; for @pairs -> Pair $p { say $p.perl } } ; foo('a' ..'c' => 'ABC')
07:47 brother ?eval  sub foo (*%named, Pair *@pairs) { say "hash"; say %named.perl; say "list"; for @pairs -> Pair $p { say $p.perl } } ; foo('a' ..'c' => 'ABC')
07:47 evalbot_7636 hash {("a b c" => "ABC")} list undef
07:47 brother ?eval sub foo (*%named, Pair *@pairs) { say "hash"; say %named.perl; say "list"; for @pairs -> Pair $p { say $p.perl } } ; foo ('a' ..'c' => 'ABC')
07:47 evalbot_7636 hash {} list (("a", "b", "c") => "ABC") undef
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07:48 brother Is that difference intended?
07:52 nothingmuch heh, /me did 'dd .... bs=1024x1024x1024' by accident
07:53 nothingmuch by the time I realized what was going on it was too late ;-)
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09:24 nothingmuch http://ask.slashdot.org/comments​.pl?sid=165444&cid=13801120
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09:24 * nothingmuch thinks this works:
09:24 nothingmuch choose a leader
09:24 nothingmuch all other prisoners also get k switches
09:24 nothingmuch they switch randomly, like the king
09:25 nothingmuch the leader prisoner waits for (n+1)k states he wasn't responsible for
09:25 rafl Can someone please tell me when I parted this channel the last time before 11am CEST?
09:25 nothingmuch rafl: use the logger?
09:25 rafl nothingmuch: Where is the logger?
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09:26 nothingmuch http://irc.pugscode.org/
09:26 rafl Thank you.
09:28 * nothingmuch realizes he was wrong
09:28 nothingmuch because the game might be stuck with all the prisoners running out of k before the leader gets his situations
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10:05 nothingmuch do we need a list context and?
10:06 nothingmuch ($var ?? (key => $var) !! ());
10:06 nothingmuch i find myself doing that a lot in arg lists lately
10:06 nothingmuch i hope the touple type can get rid of it
10:06 nothingmuch but i'm not sure
10:06 autrijus hi from stockholm airport
10:06 nothingmuch hi from omer industrial park
10:06 autrijus boarding in... 20 min
10:06 nothingmuch headed to the nordic perl workshop?
10:07 autrijus but network may stop any time now
10:07 autrijus journal up (a bit)
10:07 autrijus no euro oscon
10:07 nothingmuch ah
10:08 nothingmuch autrijus: what do you think wrt list context && ?
10:08 nothingmuch maybe a prefix operator on pairs
10:08 nothingmuch what would a maybe operator look like?
10:08 autrijus you can define it yourself... maybe :)
10:08 nothingmuch right, it's nto hard
10:09 nothingmuch sub maybe (Pair $x) { $x.v ?? $x :: () }
10:09 r0nny_ has joined #perl6
10:09 nothingmuch lunchtime
10:11 wolverian heh.
10:11 wolverian autrijus, hey, you're almost near me! :)
10:11 autrijus mmmnm?
10:12 wolverian I know because I feel unusually energetic.
10:12 wolverian (I'm in helsinki)
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10:13 autrijus :D
10:13 autrijus I was in helsinki.
10:13 * autrijus ponders the Amulet of Yendor effect
10:14 joao wolverian: heh
10:14 integral there's always the risk you got the fake one mixed up
10:15 autrijus mm cheap plastic copy of autrijus
10:15 autrijus about 30% finished slides is on http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/pugs.xul
10:16 autrijus it should be obvious that I'm in Unicode abuse mode.
10:18 wolverian about time someone abused Unicode and not the reverse..
10:19 wolverian use fp;?
10:20 xerox autrijus: impressive!!!
10:21 * wolverian agrees
10:22 xerox autrijus: Unicode abuse mode is great.
10:23 wolverian heh. what's erdosing? I think I missed that sometime ago :)
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10:36 theorbtwo Aww... I can't display slide 44 correctly!
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10:39 scook0 grr, openfoundry still down? :(
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10:52 nothingmuch autrijus: what is "our feature presentation" going to be?
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12:34 rafl Hrm.. what's up with openfoundry? RA layer request failed: PROPFIND request failed on '/pugs': PROPFIND of '/pugs': could not connect to server (http://svn.openfoundry.org)
12:34 gaal rafl: autrijus mentioned it "got its weekend shutdown" just as his mailbox got full
12:35 gaal did you see my ~threeliner request?
12:35 rafl gaal: I can remember it roughly. Would you please repeat it, though?
12:36 rafl btw, pugs 6.2.10 was accepted by the FTP masters and will go into Debian sid today.
12:36 gaal yaya
12:36 rafl 6.2.8 is in testing since yesterday.
12:36 gaal rafl: you said ghc builds for you in a clean chrooted environment. how do i attempt the same?
12:38 rafl apt-get install pbuilder; pbuilder create --distribution sid --mirror http://the.nearest/mirror; apt-get source ghc6; pbuilder build ghc6*.dsc
12:38 rafl Maybe you also need to install cdeboostrap to make the pbuilder create work.
12:40 gaal thanks, i'll try that later on today if i have time
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13:28 rafl gaal: btw, which version do you use? 6.4-4.1 or 6.4.1-1?
13:28 gaal rafl: whatever ghc6 is on unstable :)
13:28 rafl gaal: Yesterday it was 6.4-4.1. Today it's 6.4.1-1.
13:29 gaal okies. can't try anything right now anymoose.
13:29 rafl OK.
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13:45 rafl Why doesn't the pugs binary link against the haskell interface? It's still such a huge binary..
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14:04 rafl Who wrote the yaml_harness and config.yml/smoker.yml stuff?
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14:10 svnbot6 r7637 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
14:10 svnbot6 r7637 | stevan++ | * added a simplistic parser for class syntax (see tests for examples)
14:10 svnbot6 r7637 | stevan++ |    - added a number of tests for this as well
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14:12 svnbot6 r7638 | rafl++ |  r17178@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-16 15:45:31 +0200
14:12 svnbot6 r7638 | rafl++ |  Debian:
14:12 svnbot6 r7638 | rafl++ |  * Configure with DESTDIR=/usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/ so the paths in the
14:12 svnbot6 r7638 | rafl++ |    generated cabal file are correct.
14:12 svnbot6 r7639 | rafl++ |  r17179@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-16 16:01:18 +0200
14:12 svnbot6 r7639 | rafl++ |  Debian:
14:12 svnbot6 r7639 | rafl++ |   * Updated ghc6 dependency for libghc6-pugs-dev.
14:12 svnbot6 r7639 | rafl++ |   * Added perl dependency for libghc6-pugs-dev.
14:12 svnbot6 r7639 | rafl++ |   * Some minor description improvements.
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |  r17180@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-16 16:03:57 +0200
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |  debian/copyright:
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |   * Added two spaces in front of the pugscode url to prevent some broken tool to
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |     do a wrong line-wrapping.
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |   * Added full text of the BSD license because the BSD license of
14:12 svnbot6 r7640 | rafl++ |     src/syck/COPYING differs from the original BSD license.
14:12 svnbot6 r7641 | rafl++ |  r17181@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-16 16:08:45 +0200
14:12 svnbot6 r7641 | rafl++ |  * debian/rules: various cleanups.
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14:18 svnbot6 r7642 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
14:18 svnbot6 r7642 | iblech++ | * docs/quickref:
14:18 svnbot6 r7642 | iblech++ |   * control: Subroutines, named args, positional pairs etc.
14:18 svnbot6 r7642 | iblech++ |   * data: Minor fix to the use of that hash() sub.
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14:24 svnbot6 r7643 | iblech++ | Fixed some tests in t/builtins/ WRT pairs now being demagicalized.
14:24 svnbot6 r7644 | iblech++ | * Renamed examples/slurpy-list-parms to slurpy-list-params.
14:24 svnbot6 r7644 | iblech++ | * examples/japh/* and examples/output/slurpy-list-params/* are now tested
14:24 svnbot6 r7644 | iblech++ |   by t/examples/examples.t.
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15:24 svnbot6 r7645 | autrijus++ | * larry_mariner.txt: Stanza 3
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15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ | * some more work on the parser
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ |     - handles very simple parameter lists
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ |     - now allows . method invocation and ~ string concat
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ | NOTE: this is still not very robust, mostly just a toy project at
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ | this point, however some of this might be adaptable to using PIL
15:42 svnbot6 r7646 | stevan++ | output to construct classes
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15:53 spinclad autrijus: no idea if anyone else has mentioned this...
15:55 spinclad autrijus: in haskell4.xul, p30: parseTest expr "1*2|-3 or 'A'": the -3 shows up as 3 below...
15:55 autrijus thanks, fixed
15:56 spinclad :)
15:57 autrijus spinclad++
15:57 * autrijus catches up
15:57 autrijus ooh scook0++ # demagicalizing pairs
16:12 autrijus dinner &
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16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ | * Misc. test fixes:
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * var/autoref.t: Minor test description fix.
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * pugsbugs/topic_in_map.t: Test fix (one-char patch) and moved out of
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |     pugsbugs/ as the test passes now.
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * pugsbugs/cast_undef_shortcircuit.t: Fixed test expectations,
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |     PIL2JS passes this test now.
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * pugsbugs/parsing_bool.t: Test fix (s:g/err/or/)
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * pugsbugs/value_alias_readonly.t: Added another test for the readwrite-ness
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |     of $pair.values.  XXX: Should (key => $value).value =:= $value? (See the
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |     test for details).
16:49 svnbot6 r7647 | iblech++ |   * pugsbugs/return_in_anonymous_subs.t: Fixed the test (passes under PIL2JS now).
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16:52 geoffb *yawn*
16:53 geoffb Morning, all
16:57 spinclad autrijus, would you want Erd{\''o}sing (that is, the acute-umlaut accent) as long as we're abusing Unicode?
16:57 spinclad (please forgive that i haven't tracked down how to type it properly myself!)
16:57 integral "Erdösing"
16:59 spinclad isn't that a simple umlaut?  in hungarian i believe it's a long ö, which they spell with double-acutes
16:59 integral oh, good point, they look too similar too often.  (/me &)
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17:02 spinclad what finns would happily spell öö
17:04 spinclad (which is easier to type in latin-1)
17:13 svnbot6 r7648 | putter++ | pugs -CPerl5 representation of VRat changed from (2/3) to [2,3].
17:13 svnbot6 r7648 | putter++ | So backends can decide how to represent rationals.
17:13 svnbot6 r7648 | putter++ | Tweaked PIL2JS to work with the new rep.
17:13 svnbot6 r7648 | putter++ | [2,3] was chosen over 2,3 to avoid creating a unique two-part PIL value.
17:13 svnbot6 r7648 | putter++ | Example: bless([[2,3]],"VRat")
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17:14 theorbtwo Well, in theory, it's o+umlout+accute.
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17:15 theorbtwo ö́
17:15 theorbtwo Hm, that didn't work quite right.
17:16 theorbtwo ?eval say "o\x{308}\x{301}";
17:16 evalbot_7647 o\x308\x301 bool::true
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17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | t/rules/perl5.t broken into 9 bitesized 100-test pieces.
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | It is supposed to be a rules test, not to be avoided because it is
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | stress testing parser backtracking and backend memory handling.
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | PIL2JS code generation now works on all nine files.  Three still
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | cause an uncomfortably large bin/js (maybe 4,5 and 8?).  One could
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | add backend-specific skips to those files.  Or ideally, figure out
17:31 svnbot6 r7649 | putter++ | which specific expressions are blowing up and skip/fix those.
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18:08 * Aankhen`` goes to sleep.
18:08 Aankhen`` G'night.
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18:19 geoffb Oddly quiet here today.
18:21 Juerd .oO( figlet LOUD ENOUGH? )
18:25 geoffb heh
18:26 geoffb Normally it takes me a couple hours just to read the log from when I go to bed to when I wake up.  I just read two days of logs in an hour and a half . . . .
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18:27 Juerd Wow, you read all of it?
18:27 Juerd Admirable
18:28 * putter toots on horn.  shouldnt be quiet on a weekend at this hour.  toot.
18:29 * putter forgot key pugs design objective recently.  -Ofun.  nice autrijus slides reminded.
18:29 geoffb Juerd, as long as I've been away no more than 2-3 days (depending on my mood after such a break)
18:29 putter tnx ;)
18:29 geoffb putter, :-)
18:35 Juerd Why does the operating system I wanted to love suck so much?
18:35 geoffb Juerd, ?
18:35 coral it's got the wrong shade of blue as the default color?
18:36 Juerd As I'm cleaning up my Mac mini's hard drive for the partition to be resized and the rest of the drive to be filled with Linux stuff, I wonder why I had so great hopes for OS X
18:36 Juerd I bought a Mac because I had wanted it for years. I wanted to use OS X.
18:36 Juerd And less than a year later, I'm going to install Linux on it because KDE is so much better in many respects.
18:37 Juerd And Debian is so much better at managing a system (esp. upgrades)
18:41 rafl And it always has an up-to-date pugs! 8-)
18:41 Juerd I haven't even compiled anything on my mac yet
18:41 putter rafl++
18:41 Juerd It's too much trouble to get all the pieces in place before doing so
18:42 Juerd I ssh to linux boxes all the time
18:42 Juerd Because the shell environment Apple gives you is so limiting, and I'm too lazy to change that
18:43 putter hmm.. what is infix:^^ ?  (<-- more noise:)
18:43 Juerd putter: logical xor, high precedence
18:44 geoffb Juerd, why is that not ?^ ?
18:45 geoffb Or does logical implicitely get all doubled forms?
18:45 Juerd geoffb: That would be boolean, not logical, although for xor it's probably the same in all respects.
18:45 Juerd $foo ?& $bar evaluates to true or false
18:45 Juerd $foo && $bar evaluates to $bar or false
18:46 Juerd I think ^^ is there for symmetry with && and ||
18:46 geoffb Ah, right, been too long since I reviewed that AES
18:46 Juerd It was missing in Perl 5.
18:46 putter Juerd: thanks :)   http://search.cpan.org/dist/Perl​6-Bible/lib/Perl6/Bible/S03.pod  http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S03.html
18:46 Juerd I prefer short URLs :)
18:46 Juerd http://tnx.nl/S03
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18:55 stevan putter: ping
18:58 putter ponnnnnggg!
18:59 stevan hey putter :)
18:59 putter hey stevan!
18:59 stevan we keep missing one another
18:59 putter adding sugar i see! :)
18:59 putter :(
18:59 stevan yes, kinda sugar,.. just an idea I have had
19:00 putter I'm playing regexp games with my new p5 backend spike.  but only in a controlled environment (a complete prelude)
19:00 stevan nice
19:01 putter kind of painful.  unpack, then repack as something that looks like pil, then unpack that... :(
19:01 stevan ouch
19:01 putter ah well.  makes it much easier to massage the prelude.
19:02 stevan I was going to experiment with parsing PIL structures into classes... any advice?
19:02 stevan I want to make sure it can be folded into PIL-Run
19:02 putter hmm... lets see, think I had some memos for you...
19:03 putter PIL-Run is dead.  long live Perl6::Run::OnPerl5::X1 !  ;)  not really.
19:03 stevan I basically want to help get the MM more integrated into PIL-Run, but I need to come at it from the MM side
19:03 putter right
19:03 stevan LOL
19:03 stevan ok
19:03 stevan P6::R::OP5::X1 it is
19:04 putter bottom line, pil doesnt have the data to do oo.  lossy.  I tried adding annotations pugs-side, but that proved painful and limiited.  so my best guess is
19:06 putter one should regexp the code before handing it to pugs, add informational annotations on stuff that gets lost in something which doesnt (ie, method _hint_does_xxencodedclassxx(){}) and
19:07 stevan I am not sure I get what you mean
19:07 putter then massage the resulting pil back to something more plausible.  probably want to ignore some bits that pugs does generate, like accessors.
19:08 stevan hmmm, and when is PIL2 supposed to hit the shelves?
19:09 putter the pil for 'class A{does B}'  doesnt mention does'ing or B.  so given p6 code, one regexp's the does'es, and adds an extra  "method _im_a_hint_does_B(){}" which will make it out in the pil, and can be interpreted as "oh, there's a does() going by".
19:10 stevan ah
19:10 stevan I see now
19:10 putter stevan: re when, no idea.  completely no idea.
19:10 stevan autrijus: ping
19:10 stevan (he was around earlier, maybe he is in flight)
19:11 feng has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
19:11 mrborisguy may I ask what PIL stands for?
19:12 * putter tries to remember...
19:12 putter Pugs Intermediate Language?
19:12 stevan Pugs Intermediate Languages
19:12 stevan yes
19:12 mrborisguy thanks
19:12 autrijus stevan: pong
19:12 putter think "scheme with sematics".  a "kernel language" for pugs.
19:12 autrijus stevan: I'm in amsterdam, but may have to sleep soon
19:13 putter err, s/scheme with/scheme with more/
19:13 autrijus very early (8:30am) tutorial tomorrow
19:13 putter hi autrijus.  liked slides.  looking forward to movie. ;)
19:13 autrijus of RoR... looks intriguing. probably not going to skip
19:13 autrijus putter: sadly I didn't get time to record, maybe I'll have to recycle the oscon one.
19:13 mrborisguy putter: I've never even looked at scheme.
19:14 autrijus the main problem is my two lightning talk (the least well prepared) are the _first_.
19:14 autrijus on the first day morning
19:14 mrborisguy looks like a form of lisp?
19:14 stevan autrijus: you are ahead of schedule as usual :P
19:14 stevan autrijus: we were wondering about PLI2
19:15 stevan autrijus: did you see my recent toy class parser ?
19:15 autrijus I only checked the tests, not the imp, looks healthy
19:16 putter mrborisguy: the core idea is that the user and the compiler want different things from a language (richnesss vs simplicity-even-if-it-costs-clarity).  so one takes the surface langauge (p6), and convert it to a "kernel" language, with just a few orthogonal constructs, which is much easier for compilers and such to deal with.
19:16 stevan I would like to switch it over to PIL, but according to putter OO support in PIL is not there yet
19:16 putter autrijus: eep
19:16 mrborisguy putter: okay... that makes sense.  Thanks for the explanation.
19:17 autrijus there is fake support of OO in PIL, that of course needs to go
19:18 putter my create_class or whatever it was hack can be immediately pulled out.  proved to hard to go down that path (having pugs add annotations), so it's unused.
19:21 putter good night autrijus.  (hint;)
19:21 stevan autrijus: the impl is not as healthy, its one of my quick-n-dirty stream parsers
19:21 * autrijus smiles
19:21 autrijus yeah, sleep deprivation probably means I shouldn't do this now
19:21 stevan LOL
19:22 putter sucks _starting_ a conference already burned out
19:22 stevan ok, well anytime you want to, I would love to talk PIL2 OO stuff
19:22 autrijus though the idea is instead of BDUF'ing PIL2, instead implement the serialize-BEGIN-time-object thing first
19:22 nothingmuch evening all
19:22 stevan hey nothingmuch
19:22 autrijus so that a class is composed at begin time
19:22 autrijus and serialized -- as all opaque objects that does not involve external resources can -- into PIL tree
19:22 stevan autrijus: that makes sense
19:22 autrijus for the runtime to pick up even before INIT
19:22 putter in the BEGINing... there was Chaos.pm... and ...
19:22 autrijus putter++
19:23 autrijus and I got some proof of concept sketches
19:23 autrijus but I think I should listen to putter
19:23 stevan yes, you should :)
19:23 autrijus and sleep instead of working it out as I tend to go on :)
19:23 putter I too look forward to a PIL2 conversation.  but clearly not tonight!
19:24 nothingmuch autrijus: you should make some responsible persons ops, so that they can temp-ban you when you need sleep ;-)
19:24 putter lol
19:24 autrijus rofl
19:24 * nothingmuch needs that too
19:24 nothingmuch let's make a bot
19:24 nothingmuch we'll call it sleep bot
19:24 * stevan regularly ignore nothingmuch  without the help of a bot ;)
19:24 nothingmuch individuals can opt in to be banned, and opt out
19:24 putter ?nannybot cut me off in 1/2 hour
19:25 putter putter: yes dear
19:25 nothingmuch whenever they mention sleep deprevation, etc
19:25 nothingmuch the bot starts to count down time
19:25 nothingmuch the more frequent the mentions the less time the person has left
19:25 nothingmuch eventually it starts warning the user
19:25 nothingmuch and then it sends him off to bed
19:25 nothingmuch whatdya say?
19:26 theorbtwo nm: Careful, or you'll get voted off the island.
19:26 nothingmuch voted off the island
19:26 nothingmuch ?
19:26 stevan we would need another one for people who talk abotu the $work they should be doing
19:26 nothingmuch aye
19:26 nothingmuch nannybot: i need to work
19:27 nothingmuch nannybot: i need to sleep
19:27 nothingmuch these opt in to "categories"
19:28 nothingmuch anyway, i'm off cycling
19:28 nothingmuch autrijus: good night
19:28 theorbtwo Have fun, nothingmuch.
19:28 nothingmuch grazie, theorbtwo!
19:29 putter then there's the ever useful "tell me what you've done in the 20 minutes since I last asked." ... "now, has that been worth losing 20 minutes of sleep for?" ...
19:29 putter nothingmuch &
19:30 putter are  nor  and infix:!!  gone?  I don't see them in S03.
19:32 gaal whoa, you guys are having fun
19:32 autrijus nite people... at least I got the journal up :) *wave*
19:33 stevan nite
19:33 gaal hi a, bye a.
19:33 autrijus hi g, bye g.
19:35 gaal ?eval %*ENV.perl; # I wonder if this is safe?
19:35 evalbot_7649 "\\undef"
19:35 gaal heh.
19:39 theorbtwo infix:!! ?
19:39 putter ?
19:39 gaal no such op, i think.
19:39 putter once upon a time must have been in Prim.hs.
19:40 theorbtwo I thought so as well, which is why I was surprised that putter expected it in S03.
19:40 gaal In Perl5 it's more or less equivalent to P6's "?". :)
19:40 putter ;)
19:40 theorbtwo That's prefix:!!, gaal...
19:40 putter hmm... putter goes to check if its a prefix/infix transcription error...
19:40 gaal hmm, indeed.
19:41 theorbtwo Was there an infix !! standing in for half of the trinary ?? !!
19:42 putter no, predates that.
19:42 gaal it meant... xor or something?
19:42 putter is/was there a prefix:<!!> ?   (ok, putter goes off to check Prim.hs)
19:43 theorbtwo AFAIK, it's just a double application of prefix !.
19:43 putter not there now.  fine.   commented out.
19:44 Juerd Well, !! is part of ?? !!
19:44 Juerd And very probably without ??, !! should be disallowed, to avoid terrible confusion.
19:44 Juerd This does not take away a feature, because booleanification can now be done with ?
19:55 revdiablo And using !! for booleanification is borderline obfu anyway, even if it's a common idiom
19:58 cm has joined #perl6
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20:02 * putter wonders if the perl6 "periodic table of operators" has been updated recently...
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20:20 wolverian what do private instance variables look like nowadays? $:foo or $_foo or $._foo?
20:23 gaal $:
20:27 wolverian and private methods are _foo? (I thought Larry was thinking that)
20:28 gaal don't know
20:29 wolverian okay, thanks
20:30 j0sephi has joined #perl6
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20:36 wolverian http://chronoa.dy.fi/~wolverian/hq9+.perl6.txt (wikipedia for HQ9+ if you're not familiar with it :)
20:36 wolverian comments welcome
20:37 wolverian (particularly the run method looks like java)
20:38 rafl Heh :-)
20:40 gaal heheh.
20:41 * wolverian wonders why everyone is chuckling
20:41 gaal "Following the principle of information hiding, it is not possible to access this object."
20:42 gaal this reminds me of an old April issue of Dragon
20:42 gaal it had a compendium of useless spells
20:42 wolverian right - maybe I should add a HQ9++ subclass
20:42 gaal my favorite: "Undetectable Runes"
20:42 wolverian could this go as an example into pugs, or does it need to run?
20:42 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:42 wolverian (I can remove the typing and a few other things and it will run)
20:42 theorbtwo Don't remove things from the examples so that they run.
20:43 theorbtwo Add features to the compiler so that they run instead.
20:43 gaal you know, when my mind was on esoteric languages i wanted to write an Interpreter role
20:44 gaal to unify the basic stuff for l33t and Mondrian and ZT
20:44 gaal (etc.)
20:44 wolverian gaal, that sounds like a good idea - although maybe it needs a role hierarchy if they don't all fit into one rough role category?
20:44 gaal you can, for example, implement the first debugger for HQ9+.
20:44 wolverian theorbtwo, good point.
20:45 gaal could be :)
20:45 gaal but I'm off to sleep now :)
20:45 gaal bye bye!
20:45 wolverian gaal, heh :) well, sketch out the interface and I'll make HQ9Plus conform
20:46 wolverian oh, and good night
20:47 gaal zzZZZ &
20:56 svnbot6 r7650 | iblech++ | t/syntax/pairs.t: Guarded a test by try{} (necessary because otherwise, PIL2JS
20:56 svnbot6 r7650 | iblech++ | would abort early (as it respects the + in a (+$foo) subroutine signature)).
21:00 evalbot_7649 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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21:02 svnbot6 r7651 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
21:02 svnbot6 r7651 | iblech++ | * Added the usual she-bang lines to the non-trivial examples and non-JAPHs etc.
21:02 svnbot6 r7651 | iblech++ |   of examples/.
21:02 svnbot6 r7651 | iblech++ | * examples/cookbook/01strings​/01-03exchanging-values.p6:
21:02 svnbot6 r7651 | iblech++ |   Answered the question "could ::= be used here"?
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21:17 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:19 putter &
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22:12 * theorbtwo ponders...
22:12 theorbtwo What's the status of perl6's webish libraries?
22:13 theorbtwo How hard is it to mix with good continuations?
22:13 theorbtwo Hmm, I need to continue with filehandles, too...
22:13 theorbtwo Perhaps I need some sort of client-server thing going on even at that level.
22:13 * theorbtwo wonders if anybody but him is awake.
22:13 rafl has quit IRC (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
22:18 joao theorbtwo: hello
22:18 * joao smiles
22:18 theorbtwo Hello, joao.
22:19 theorbtwo I'm considering writing a web-based frontend to nethack.
22:19 joao I don't know how to answer, sorry :)
22:20 integral hmm, need a perl6 level for nethack ;-)
22:21 coral theorbtwo: there's a port of the door game LoRD to the web somewhere that might offer some useful code to work with
22:21 coral legend of the green dragon, i think it was called
22:21 coral a key-controlled ascii art game translated to Web/JS stuff
22:22 theorbtwo Well, I can use nethack-lisp's modifications to nethack, so I don't have to write my own.
22:22 coral oh, neat
22:22 theorbtwo (I have to parse it's mostly-lisp output, but that should be easy.)
22:22 coral nethack-lisp has a webui?
22:23 theorbtwo I'm just wondering how to do it as a repeatedly-called CGI.
22:23 theorbtwo nothingmuch, nethack-lisp outputs something that's mostly lisp, and expects some simple input.
22:23 theorbtwo Damn broken autocompletion!
22:23 theorbtwo I typed no comma, not nothingmuch comma.
22:24 theorbtwo I can attach to that with perl6 and make whatever I like.
22:24 justatheory has quit IRC ()
22:24 theorbtwo What I wonder is how to keep the end-user talking to the same game across multiple requests.
22:25 coral to avoid duplicate keystrokes out of place with state
22:25 coral you have to include a uuid
22:25 theorbtwo Oh, that's not the problem I'm wondering about.
22:25 coral o
22:25 coral when the user requests the cgi, do they then display the returned content?
22:27 theorbtwo How do I pass the fh pair to the nethack-lisp process from the one CGI to the next?
22:27 theorbtwo That's my thinking, coral, more or less.
22:27 coral hmmmmmm.
22:27 coral because it's not efficient to save and resume the game each time
22:27 integral screen?
22:28 coral keep a local daemon with a bunch of nethack process fh's
22:28 coral and then have the cgi communicate keystrokes to and request new updates from the process associated with the user's uid
22:28 theorbtwo integral: Talking with screen is a huge mess.  That was my last abandonded project.
22:29 coral if you implement ncurses in js you can just record the raw tty output of nethack after each keystroke and then send it to the browser
22:29 integral ah.  well you want something like that.  I remember the expect book from o'reilly had one years ago
22:29 theorbtwo Yeah, coral, that was my first thought.  I was wondering if there might be a simpiler method.
22:29 coral alternately, instead of passing fh you can name sockets on disk by uuid and then communicate directly with them
22:29 integral if you implement parrot in js, and get a c->parrot compiler going, you can just run nethack in the browser... :-P
22:29 theorbtwo Hm, I could implement my own simple web server.
22:29 theorbtwo Hm, that's an idea.
22:30 theorbtwo Coral's, I meant.
22:30 coral yeah, with th eoption to compile parrot to JS you've got all sorts of nifty stuff open to you
22:30 coral does the OS support detaching/reattaching to FHs?
22:31 svnbot6 r7652 | wolverian++ | Add an HQ9+ example implementation to examples/
22:31 theorbtwo coral: No, I don't think so...
22:31 theorbtwo I really don't understand sockets and named pipes and psudottys, and all that jazz...
22:32 coral pseudottys are addressable on filesystem
22:32 theorbtwo I seem to recal years ago having what seemed like a good book that had that sort of thing, but I don't have it anymore...
22:32 evalbot_7651 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
22:32 coral sockets and named pipes differ in the sense that one has a filename
22:32 evalbot_7652 has joined #perl6
22:32 coral pseudottys have the additional benefits of being tty sockets and not just normal sockets, which doesn't mean anything to me
22:33 * coral knows not of this stuff
22:33 integral ttys support termio ioctls, are isatty, and can be set as the controlling tty for POSIX process control
22:33 integral but once the master side closes, you can't reconnect.  you'd need a daemon which held that open, and then passed the FD over a LOCAL/UNIX/POSIX domain socket to whoever wanted to use it
22:34 integral (or proxied, between a FIFO/socket and the tty)
22:34 coral if cgis called a socket open function that routed all socket open calls through the master process
22:34 coral then you could have the webserver control all sockets and handle IO requests by the CGI processes that way
22:34 theorbtwo integral, where did you learn this stuff?
22:35 integral hmm, _Advanced Programming In The Unix Environment_ got me started,  but for the intricaces of the POSIX process control stuff I ended up source diving on Linux
22:35 integral *intricacies
22:36 joao integral++
22:36 joao :)
22:36 integral and I've only seen passing FDs over sockets once in a paper on using FDs as capabilities, to build a capability system over UNIX.
22:37 rafl has joined #perl6
22:39 theorbtwo Do you have a suggestion for the implementation?
22:40 integral I guess I'd just go with a UNIX domain socket or a FIFO to listen for the CGI script, one daemon process managing 1 or more nethacks
22:41 integral (does p6 have anything as easy to use for this as POE::Wheel::Run?)
22:45 j0sephi has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:47 theorbtwo integral: Since my only clients are also written by me, and I don't think I need to worry about terribly slow nethack processes, I think I'm OK doing it the more or less obvious way.
22:47 integral *nod* it'll be fun, and the perl6 bit will run the slowest :-)
22:50 j0sephi has joined #perl6
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22:59 * theorbtwo wonders if pugs has that many docs that pugs-doc is worth it as a seperate package.
23:00 joao is now known as bracaman
23:00 bracaman is now known as joao
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23:03 theorbtwo apt-get++
23:03 joao :)
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23:16 Juerd theorbtwo: Seperability is a good reason for separation.
23:17 Juerd s/per/par/
23:18 rafl theorbtwo: 1.7MB of architecture independent data. 17MB if they were in the arch-dep packages.
23:18 rafl theorbtwo: I think that justifies a seperate package.
23:19 theorbtwo OK.
23:19 rafl (~10Archs currently in Debian)
23:20 theorbtwo I didn't consider that multiplier.
23:21 rafl theorbtwo: Beside that: Maybe someone only want's to use pugs for an application or so. Then he won't need the docs and will not be forced to install them.
23:21 Juerd I installed kubuntu on my mac today
23:21 Juerd It feels good to have something with apt-get instead of that osx crap
23:22 Juerd For now: zz
23:22 Juerd Good night
23:22 rafl Bye Juerd
23:24 theorbtwo Hm, I'm going to wander off for a bit, and hope a map coeleses in my mind.
23:33 Odin-LAP has joined #perl6
23:42 geoffb nothingmuch, ping
23:42 geoffb rafl, good choice to separate doc into separate package, btw.
23:42 ingy seen autrijus
23:42 jabbot ingy: autrijus was seen 4 hours 9 minutes 42 seconds ago
23:43 rafl Well, modules are also seperated to keep the archive small.
23:43 geoffb ingy, aut* is trying to get some shut-eye, because he is burnt and has to give 2 unprepared lightning talks first thing tomorrow morning
23:43 geoffb rafl, nodnod
23:44 rafl geoffb: Mostly stolen from the perl package, though.
23:44 geoffb rafl, ?
23:44 geoffb oh, following the same decisions, you mean?
23:45 rafl geoffb: Yes. the perl source package produces: libperl5.8, perl-base, perl-modules, libcgi-fast-perl, perl-suid, perl-doc, perl-debug, libperl-dev, perl. We don't need pugs-base because it's not needed for the Debian base installation (yet :-) and no -suid or -debug version.
23:46 geoffb nodnod
23:46 rafl geoffb: The libperl* stuff is in libghc6-pugs-dev in our case.
23:46 geoffb rafl, gotcha
23:47 * rafl reduces the output of non-helpful information
23:48 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:49 ingy geoffb: thx
23:49 geoffb ingy, np
23:50 geoffb rafl, do you understand the m68k comment under "Testing Status" on http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/perl.html ?
23:50 geoffb Does that mean that out of date on m68k will not prevent a move to testing?
23:51 rafl That's also what I thought. But I don't know about that fact. http://bjorn.haxx.se/debia​n/testing.pl?package=perl also doesn't mention it.
23:52 rafl I think m68k is still preventing it from entering testing.
23:52 geoffb ARM has been holding it back for a long time.
23:53 rafl And not only perl.
23:53 rafl m68k and arm are known to be major blockers for lots of packages.
23:55 * geoffb is conflicted: I love that Debian and NetBSD push OSS authors to be very portable.  I *HATE* that m68k and ARM slow down Debian's progress
23:56 rafl Well, can the development progress in Debian really be slower? :-)
23:56 geoffb I dunno.  But without this block, it could be faster.  :-)
23:56 rafl I still think that it's a good thing to support lots of arches. But lots of them will be droped until or after etch anyway..
23:57 rafl I think it will be focused on i386, ppc, amd64, ia64 officially. Other's will be not official but get support and stuff. They just won't be released at the same time as the other "official" archs.
23:58 geoffb rafl, do tell.  I've not been able to keep up with Debian news of late.
23:58 rafl At least if I remember it right.
23:58 geoffb Oh, the staggered release idea was approved?
23:59 rafl I'm not sure. But I think it will if it isn't already.

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