Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 geoffb good!
00:00 geoffb It's about time.
00:01 rafl Well, good for those people using the major archs.
00:01 rafl And not too bad for the other guys, after all.
00:02 geoffb Yeah.
00:03 geoffb The four arches you mentioned have enough differences that portability should still be a strong push.
00:03 rafl Yes. It's also not said that Debian won't run on the other archs anymore.
00:04 geoffb right -- and that's all part of why I was happy to see the staggered release idea proposed, and discussion looking positive
00:05 rafl ACK.
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01:35 eric256__ ?eval 42.pugs
01:35 evalbot_7652 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&pugs"
01:35 eric256__ ?eval 42.pop;
01:35 evalbot_7652 42
01:35 mrborisguy when I saw that at first I was like, "what!? there's a pugs command?  that could probably help me!"
01:36 eric256__ lol
01:36 eric256__ brain wires got crossed
01:36 mrborisguy :D
01:37 eric256__ ?eval 42.shift;
01:37 evalbot_7652 42
01:37 eric256__ odd
01:38 eric256__ ?eval shift 42
01:38 evalbot_7652 42
01:39 joepurl has joined #perl6
01:39 mrborisguy don't expect it to do that for a scalar, you mean?
01:39 eric256__ it shouldn't ;)
01:39 mrborisguy does the constant get interpreted as a list?
01:39 eric256__ ?eval my $x = 42; $x.pop;
01:39 evalbot_7652 42
01:39 mrborisguy ?eval my $n = 42; $n.pop
01:39 evalbot_7652 42
01:39 eric256__ nope ;)
01:40 mrborisguy that's definitely not expected
01:40 mrborisguy do you know how to fix that in Haskell?  I'd be intruiged because I was thinking on working on the chop problem
01:40 mrborisguy and that would have some similar code that might get me started
01:40 eric256__ i beleive i do.. should be a simple matter of fixing the op in Prim.hs  ... i think ;)
01:41 mrborisguy yeah, just adding some code to make sure it's an array, right?
01:42 mrborisguy ?eval hash( a => 42, b => 144000 ).pop
01:42 evalbot_7652 Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "named" [Val (VStr "a"),Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 12 1 14) (Val (VInt 42))]
01:42 eric256__ i beleive so
01:42 eric256__ not exactly a pretty error
01:42 eric256__ ?eval hash( a => 42, b => 144000 )
01:42 evalbot_7652 Error: Unknown syntactic construct: Syn "named" [Val (VStr "a"),Pos (MkPos "<eval>" 1 12 1 14) (Val (VInt 42))]
01:43 eric256__ that worked yestarday..didn't it?
01:43 mrborisguy my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop
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01:43 eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,) (b => 144000) )
01:43 evalbot_7652 Error:  unexpected "h" expecting program
01:43 mrborisguy I don't know... I'm not always up on what's happening around here
01:43 eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,) (b => 144000) )
01:43 evalbot_7652 Error:  unexpected "h" expecting program
01:43 eric256__ ?eval hash( (a => 42,, b => 144000) )
01:43 evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
01:43 eric256__ ?eval hash( (a =>  42, b => 144000) )
01:43 evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
01:43 eric256__ ?eval hash( (a ,  42, b , 144000) )
01:43 evalbot_7652 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Handle (VHandle)
01:44 eric256__ ?eval hash( a ,  42, b , 144000)
01:44 evalbot_7652 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&a"
01:44 eric256__ ?eval hash( 'a' ,  42, 'b' , 144000)
01:44 evalbot_7652 {("a" => 42), ("b" => 144000)}
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01:44 eric256__ lol. thats  picky function
01:44 eric256__ must have been pair magic
01:44 mrborisguy haha
01:46 mrborisguy my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop
01:47 mrborisguy ?eval my %hash = (a => 42, b => 144000 ); %hash.pop
01:47 evalbot_7652 Error: Cannot cast into Array: VRef <Hash>
01:49 eric256__ thats an automatic casting happening...i don't see any errors in Prim.hs though.../me wonders if the failing test is wrong
01:53 eric256__ hmmm what did you want to do to chop?
01:53 eric256__ that might be easier than this ;)
02:01 eric256__ ?eval 24.shift;
02:01 evalbot_7652 24
02:01 eric256__ ?eval 24.unshift;
02:01 evalbot_7652 1
02:01 eric256__ ?eval 24.unshift(5);
02:01 evalbot_7652 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
02:02 eric256__ ?eval my $x =24; $x.unshift(5); $x.say;
02:02 evalbot_7652 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
02:05 rafl evalbot_7652: What should that do?
02:05 * eric256__ guesses you mean me
02:05 eric256__ what should which one do?
02:06 rafl Of course /^e\w+_\d+/ :-)
02:06 rafl 24.unshift(5) and 24.unshift
02:06 eric256__ those shouldn't work. iwas looking for where the error is generated so i could try and generate the same error for 24.pop;
02:07 rafl Ah, OK. It seemed not very DWIM to me :-)
02:08 eric256__ ?eval hex( [1..5]);
02:08 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:08 coral 42.unshift(5)?
02:08 eric256__ ?eval hex( 1);
02:08 evalbot_7652 1
02:08 eric256__ ?eval hex( 5 + 6);
02:08 evalbot_7652 17
02:08 eric256__ ?eval hex( 1..5);
02:08 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:08 eric256__ interesting error. lol
02:08 coral hex(5+6) isn't ever 17?!
02:08 coral quite interesting
02:08 eric256__ ?eval hex(11)
02:08 evalbot_7652 17
02:09 eric256__ ?eval hex(10)
02:09 evalbot_7652 16
02:09 eric256__ ?eval hex(9)
02:09 evalbot_7652 9
02:09 coral oh
02:09 coral i have the wrong direction in mind, n/m
02:09 eric256__ lol
02:09 eric256__ still looks wrong...why is hex 9  = 9, but hex 10 is 16...or am i going the wrong direction too? is it expecting a hex number or returning one?
02:09 eric256__ ?eval hex('a')
02:09 evalbot_7652 10
02:09 eric256__ ahh
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02:15 coral ?eval hex('g')
02:15 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:15 coral i suppose that's valid, or something
02:17 eric256__ lol
02:19 coral ?eval hex(
02:19 evalbot_7652 Error:  unexpected ( or "h" expecting program
02:19 coral ?eval hex('-a')
02:19 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:19 eric256__ yea not the greatest errors in the world ;)
02:19 coral at least it says where the error starts
02:19 coral ?eval hex(0-1)
02:19 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:20 eric256__ no actualy it doesn't. lol. its actualy failing to parse that at all
02:20 eric256__ ?eval my $x = '-a'; hex($x);
02:20 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:20 coral well, the hex( one
02:20 coral ?eval my $x = 0-1; $x
02:20 evalbot_7652 \-1
02:20 coral uh, yeah
02:20 eric256__ ?eval my $x = 'a'; hex($x);
02:20 evalbot_7652 10
02:20 * coral learns something new
02:21 eric256__ ?eval my $x = '0';  hex($x);
02:21 evalbot_7652 0
02:21 eric256__ ?eval my $x = '0'; $x -1; hex($x);
02:21 evalbot_7652 0
02:21 eric256__ ?eval my $x = 0; $x -1; hex($x);
02:21 evalbot_7652 0
02:21 coral ?eval my $x = 0; $x -1; $x
02:21 evalbot_7652 \0
02:21 eric256__ interesting. lol
02:21 eric256__ oh duh
02:21 eric256__ ?eval my $x = 0; $x--; hex($x);
02:21 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:21 coral ?eval hex((0|1))
02:21 evalbot_7652 0
02:21 coral ?eval hex((0|-1))
02:21 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:22 coral heh!
02:22 coral ?eval hex(any(-100..0))
02:22 evalbot_7652 pugs: Prelude.read: no parse
02:22 * eric256__ aborts for tonight.
02:22 eric256__ later
02:22 coral ok sorry
02:22 * coral stpos
02:22 eric256__ no not you
02:22 eric256__ just tired of flaying in pugs with no one who knows the internals around...even if i do change things i'm never sure its quite right...need a guide ;)
02:22 eric256__ later
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02:28 autrijus coral: fixed.
02:28 autrijus committing.
02:29 autrijus it's in Pugs.Prim's op1 "hex"
02:29 autrijus the "read" there needs to be guarded with a try
02:34 coral ah, cool
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02:34 autrijus I wonder if it should throw an exception.
02:35 autrijus I'll leave it as undef for now
02:35 coral hex of 'h' is illegal but hex of anything negative is ???
02:35 coral dunno
02:36 autrijus anyway, r7653.
02:36 * autrijus goes back slidemaking
02:36 autrijus coral++
02:36 coral autrijus: danke. also ingy sought you earlier.
02:37 autrijus k
02:38 svnbot6 r7653 | autrijus++ | * hex("invalid string") now returns undef (maybe throw exception?
02:38 svnbot6 r7653 | autrijus++ |   not sure), instead of die an uncaught fatal exception.
02:38 svnbot6 r7653 | autrijus++ |   Reported by coral.
02:38 coral well, er reported by eric really
02:39 autrijus oh well... eric256++ # then
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02:44 coral eric256++
02:44 coral ?eval hex()
02:44 evalbot_7653 undef
02:46 rafl I'd like an exception.
02:47 coral i sort of agree, from a clueless standpoint
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03:01 autrijus alright then.
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03:04 mrborisguy eric256__: sorry, I left... I guess in the unspecced tests, ( "one", "two", "three" ).chop == ( "on", "tw", "thre" )  ... I was going to try to do that
03:05 mrborisguy more as a learning how to hack pugs exercise, really.
03:05 coral ?eval "".chop
03:05 evalbot_7653 ""
03:05 coral ?eval Inf.chop
03:05 evalbot_7653 "In"
03:05 coral heh
03:06 coral ?eval (1/0)
03:06 evalbot_7653 Error: Illegal division by zero
03:08 svnbot6 r7654 | autrijus++ | * Last commit (making hex() not lethal) is due to eric256.
03:08 svnbot6 r7654 | autrijus++ | * coral and rafl suggested that hex() should raise a
03:08 svnbot6 r7654 | autrijus++ |   catchable exception instead of returning undef.
03:08 svnbot6 r7654 | autrijus++ | * Add in an implementation for oct() just for fun.
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03:12 autrijus ?eval hex "AOSDH"
03:12 evalbot_7654 Error: Cannot parse hexadecimal string: AOSDH
03:12 autrijus ?eval oct "999"
03:12 evalbot_7654 Error: Cannot parse octal string: 999
03:12 autrijus ?eval oct "742"
03:12 evalbot_7654 482
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03:35 coral ?eval oct hex "a"
03:35 evalbot_7654 8
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05:53 spinclad rafl: installation report.  Tried Installing the four pugs packages from debian sid (hurrah! rafl++!).
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05:53 spinclad Three went in w/ no problems: pugs, pugs-modules, pugs-doc.
05:54 spinclad Installing libghc6-pugs-dev failed at first as I didn't have a /usr/local/include.
05:55 spinclad After mkdir /usr/local/include, it also installed.
05:57 spinclad Problem: /usr/lib/haskell-packages/ghc6/lib/Pugs-6.2.10/installed-pkg-config has the line:
05:57 spinclad include-dirs: /usr/local/include /usr/lib/perl/5.8/CORE
05:58 spinclad which doesn't seem right to me.
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06:00 spinclad I believe I ought to have the directory but the package should not refer to it.
06:02 spinclad Very happy to see 6.2.10 in Debian!  rafl++
06:03 coral in ubuntu with all package sources enabled for hoary and breezy:
06:03 coral Package pugs is not available, but is referred to by another package.
06:03 coral $ apt-cache search pugs
06:03 coral pugs-doc - Documentation for pugs
06:03 coral maybe i'm missing a package list.
06:04 spinclad what other package?
06:04 spinclad in debian sid at the moment only pugs-modules depends on pugs
06:06 spinclad (mutually, as it happens)
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06:13 autrijus greetings from euro oscon
06:13 coral hello autrijus
06:13 autrijus first tutorial of the day: Ruby on Rails - Enjoying the ride of programming!
06:14 coral re-fetched my ubuntu package lists, no errors this time
06:14 coral no pugs either, only pugs-doc
06:14 obra morning autrijus
06:14 * autrijus prepares for the assault of eigenclasses
06:14 * coral files a bug
06:14 coral wait, maybe it's unstable. i bet that's it. or something.
06:16 geoffb Greetings, autrijus
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06:18 autrijus yo geoffb
06:19 geoffb Did you already do your lightning talks?
06:21 luqui cool, OpenGL works in haskell.  I might have to port Glop to haskell.
06:21 luqui or better yet, add OpenGL bindings to pugs
06:22 luqui and then port glop to perl 6 (and be completely unable to write any games in it because of the speed)
06:22 luqui oh, euro oscon, neat
06:23 geoffb luqui: SDL_perl already works with pugs.
06:23 geoffb In fact, I'm in the middle of talking to chromatic about it elsewhere
06:24 luqui yeah, but SDL_Perl is a pain in the ass to install
06:24 autrijus geoffb: no, lightning talks is tomorrow morning
06:24 luqui anybody who runs pugs has already installed haskell, and therefore already has the bindings
06:24 autrijus geoffb: and apparently I did my slides in the reverse order of presentation
06:24 autrijus fun!
06:24 geoffb autrijus, heh
06:25 geoffb luqui, on what platform?  For Win32 and various *nixen, it's an easy install
06:25 luqui it's not that easy for Win32, because SDL::OpenGL doesn't work, so you have to fall back to OpenGL.pm
06:25 luqui on OS X is just a damn pain
06:26 autrijus ...inflicted acme with T-shirts...
06:26 luqui I could also put it this way:  you can get it to work everywhere, but it works very differently everywhere
06:26 geoffb luqui, you are incorrect about Win32.  SDL::OpenGL works.  Which I know, because I host the PPM repo for it.  :-)
06:27 luqui oh, that's great that it works for you :-)
06:27 hoowa_ has joined #perl6
06:27 coral heh
06:27 chromatic has joined #perl6
06:27 hoowa_ hi tang did u here
06:27 autrijus hoowa_, chromatic: greetings.
06:28 hoowa_ i need u help tang
06:28 geoffb luqui, um, it should just work.  As in, run PPM, hit the URL in my PPM rep, life is golden.
06:28 autrijus chromatic: are you @ .nl?
06:28 chromatic No, .or.us.
06:28 coral hello portland!
06:28 coral (or nearby)
06:28 chromatic West of PDX, but not Beaverton.
06:28 chromatic Stupid Beaverton.
06:28 * luqui is pretty sure he got the PPM from you (the only PPM I could find).  There was breakage (SDL::OpenGL exprorted, nay, had no symbols whatsoever)
06:28 hoowa_ tang pls help repair my cpan id, i forgot all long time
06:29 luqui anyway, I could email you when I pick the project back up again, if you're interested
06:29 * luqui read that as "Stupid Beethoven"
06:29 autrijus hoowa_: you need me reset your password?
06:29 chromatic I like Beethoven.
06:29 * luqui too
06:29 luqui :-)
06:29 hoowa_ tang yes
06:29 autrijus hoowa_: ok, doing so
06:29 * coral prods pause.perl.org forlornly
06:29 hoowa_ and
06:30 geoffb luqui, sorry, multitasking.  You probably got the PPM from crazywhathisname or from Tels.  Both had broken OpenGL modules.
06:30 luqui okay, I shall try again at some point
06:30 coral http://pause.perl.org/pause/query?ACTION=mailpw will mail forgotten passwords if (1) you know your CPAN id and (2) you have access to the email it was registered with
06:31 luqui Glop is not my current focus though (because I've decided that it needs to be redesigned)
06:31 geoffb The one on broadwell.org should be clean.  And I even went anarchy++ and opened up the repo.  Join #sdlperl and look at the topic.  committer bits for all.
06:31 geoffb luqui, understood
06:31 chromatic Or hook up Parrot to Pugs and then we can use Parrot SDL from Perl 6....
06:31 autrijus ...but wait, it's already hooked (via eval"")...
06:31 autrijus but object-level hooking would be nice.
06:31 luqui the reason I started talking about this is because I just wrote a trivial program with haskell's opengl bindings
06:32 luqui so we could have opengl under parrot and haskell backends
06:32 coral oo
06:32 chromatic I just wrote a trivial program with Perl 5's OpenGL bindings.
06:32 coral if you can find JS-addressable OpenGL plugins for web browsers
06:32 luqui (even though, as geoffb points out, we can already have opengl under haskell using perl5:SDL::OpenGL)
06:32 luqui coral, I wish  (seriously, if they exist, tell me)
06:33 luqui maybe you could set up OpenGL through Java, and then let JS address Java
06:33 luqui the generic "you", of course
06:33 geoffb Yeah, cause definitely not me.
06:34 geoffb :-)
06:34 coral 2005-04-28
06:34 coral I'm currently writing a plugin for Firefox using OpenGL on Win32.
06:34 coral https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=292303
06:34 coral also https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=specific&amp;order=relevance+desc&amp;bug_status=__open__&amp;content=opengl
06:35 luqui coral: sweeet
06:35 luqui keep me posted
06:36 coral http://www.synthesisters.com/download/JavascriptInMax.pdf appears to indicate that 'Max' (3dsmax, maybe?) supports javascript that manipulates opengl
06:36 coral er, 'Sketch'?
06:36 hoowa_ thank u tang
06:36 geoffb coral, very cool
06:36 coral XWT has opengl acceleration and javascript parser
06:36 coral nothing appears to quite be covering the specific need except that one win32 bug above
06:37 coral heh, there's "vrcore1, a new portable 3D engine for OpenGL with javascript scripting"
06:37 coral pugs->js->opengl rendering :)
06:37 luqui I'm sure that will be really really fast :-p
06:38 coral hee hee
06:38 * luqui is under the impression that you can make many great games without speed though
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06:38 luqui or even a speedy library
06:38 luqui (marijuana is a necessity though, apparently)
06:38 * luqui should get to bed
06:38 coral i was addicted to tetris perfectly sober
06:39 luqui autrijus, keep me posted if you talk to larry et al about annotations and whatnot
06:39 luqui coral, I meant for making games
06:39 coral oh, heh
06:39 * luqui has pot-addict friends who are game programmers
06:39 * luqui swears never to touch their code again
06:39 autrijus luqui: okie
06:40 luqui sayonara
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06:43 coral if y'all can compile to actionscript then as2swf is easy
06:46 coral brief email sent to the author of the opengl/win32 plugin (ncannasse@motion-twin.com)
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09:34 rafl spinclad: Hrm.. libghc6-pugs-dev should be broken..
09:38 theorbtwo That was an awful short backlog.
09:38 theorbtwo Morning, people.
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09:43 rafl spinclad: Oh, didn't read the lines that didn't highlight me.
09:44 rafl spinclad: Yes, that include-dirs line is wrong.
09:44 rafl spinclad: It should not refer any directory because non of them is needed for linking (AFAIK).
09:44 rafl spinclad: I just don't know how to work that around using cabal.
09:45 rafl spinclad: If you look at debian/patches/30includedirs.dpatch in the source dir you'll see that I already put quite of lot of work into removing everything I could without breaking other things.
10:08 scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo(3)
10:08 evalbot_7654 bar -- 3 bool::true
10:08 scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo(x =>3)
10:08 evalbot_7654 bar -- 3 bool::true
10:08 scook0 ?eval method foo(Str $s: $x) { say "$s -- $x" }; "bar".foo((x =>3))
10:08 evalbot_7654 bar -- x 3 bool::true
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10:25 svnbot6 r7655 | scook0++ | * Tweak ruleInvocationCommon to use HasParens, not NoParens
10:25 svnbot6 r7655 | scook0++ | * Update 'plan' for t/builtins/arity.t
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14:23 eric256 morning
14:24 QtPlatypus Morning
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15:10 geoffb autrijus, how goes the conference?
15:11 Limbic_Region geoffb - IIRC, you were mildly interested in a list of neat/interesting questions/challenges/riddles at the Monastery right?
15:12 geoffb yeah, sure . . . what's new?
15:13 Limbic_Region oh, for a project I am working on I am collecting a list of links
15:14 geoffb ah
15:14 Limbic_Region some are to steal er borrow ideas from and others are to use as is
15:14 geoffb What is the project?
15:14 Limbic_Region uber top secret
15:14 eric256 lol
15:14 Limbic_Region but in any acct, when the list is compiled, I would be happy to share them with you
15:14 theorbtwo BUM BUM BUM!
15:14 * geoffb is cleared "uber top secret", you see
15:15 Limbic_Region let me say this about that
15:15 Limbic_Region there are often times when a self-taught programmer reaches the end of a road
15:15 Limbic_Region they have figured out all they started out to learn and don't know where to go from here
15:16 Limbic_Region they don't know what they don't know so they don't know where to learn what it is they don't know
15:16 Limbic_Region there are lots of diversions that are fun and can spark inspiration
15:16 geoffb nod
15:16 Limbic_Region perl golf, poetry, obfusacation
15:16 geoffb good idea, htat
15:16 Limbic_Region well - my personal favorite is these puzzles/challenges/interesting questions
15:17 geoffb My favorite is hanging out here.  :-)
15:17 Limbic_Region a second personal favorite of mine is letting Necessity be the mother of invention
15:17 Limbic_Region solve an old problem by intentionally limiting what tools you will allow yourself to use
15:17 Limbic_Region you end up either learning about new tools or how to use known tools in new and novel ways
15:18 Limbic_Region I use the Monastery as a means to accomplish 1 and 2
15:18 ruz has joined #perl6
15:18 Limbic_Region anyway - I have monopolized enough of #perl6 on semi-OT stuff
15:18 Limbic_Region when the list is complete I will let you know
15:19 Khisanth <Limbic_Region> they have figured out all they started out to learn and don't know where to go from here < following autrijus wouldn't be a bad idea :D
15:19 geoffb Speaking of which, at one point I started doing a Perl version of busybox, so that I would be forced to learn all the rarely-used params for the old unix favorites
15:19 Khisanth I mean the stuff he mentions in his journal :)
15:19 theorbtwo I'd more call golf, poetry, and obfuscation modifiers on a problem then problems unto themselves.
15:20 Limbic_Region Khisanth - well, chances are if they are giften enough to be able to follow autrijus then they don't need help being inspired
15:20 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - I was just saying that they are ways to find inspiration while having fun
15:20 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
15:21 * eric256 can't get mysql to start up... this stupid server is going out the window very very soon
15:21 theorbtwo (Problem: print "Hello world" to the screen.  Golf: Print hello world to the screen with a short program... etc.
15:21 theorbtwo Hm, L~R, I'd love to see that list sometimes, as I very much have that problem.
15:21 Khisanth Print hello world without using print! :)
15:22 Limbic_Region exactly Khisanth
15:22 Khisanth emm system calls
15:22 Limbic_Region that really isn't a golf one though - that is a necessity is the mother of invention one
15:22 * eric256 notices that his servers hard drive is full and apologizes to it. lol
15:22 geoffb eric256, heh
15:23 stevan has joined #perl6
15:23 theorbtwo Allo, stevan.
15:23 stevan hey theorbtwo
15:23 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - noted
15:23 Khisanth eric256: it didn't give any useful error message?
15:24 eric256 crap....relay log file for replication became corrupted because of DF errors.../me thinks someone is plotting against him.
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15:27 eric256 any one know if is there an irc room for MySQL help somewhere?
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15:29 Steve_p eric256, yes, #mysql
15:29 eric256 yea i realized that after asking...can't convince trillian to give me a list of channels so i just gave it a try. ;)
15:35 * eric256 attempts to twiddle his thumbs whil
15:35 eric256 e waiting... stupid enter key is in the wrong spot
16:00 eric256 anyone know how to make an op only work for a List/Array in haskell?
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16:09 wolverian evening
16:09 Khisanth afternoon :)
16:09 eric256 and goodnight ;)
16:09 wolverian :)
16:10 wolverian I'm afraid I'll have to restart this irssi session (locale problems) - see you in a minute
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16:19 wolverian ah, here we go.
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17:25 eric256 odd that sometimes this room is hoping and sometimes it's silent, and always, when i'm ready to do some haskell hacking its silent. lol ;) its like they know and flee before i can ask them annoying questions
17:26 Khisanth ;)
17:27 eric256 Khisanth is that a name from a book?  its rining faint bells in my head.
17:29 Khisanth yes
17:30 * Khisanth drips some acide on eric256
17:30 Khisanth s/de/d/
17:30 eric256 whats the book?
17:32 Khisanth dragonlance
17:32 eric256 ahh... never read that, must have picked the name up in a review or something. lol
17:34 eric256 par.perl.org id gone. ;(
17:34 autrijus eric256: yeah, my HD crashed :/
17:35 eric256 ouch. luckily CPAN has some docs on it ;)
17:35 autrijus the 9.3th State of Onion is about to begin.
17:35 eric256 is there an easy way to make op1 "shift" not work on lists?
17:35 obra 9.3th...hm
17:35 autrijus eric256: declare it as Array::shift
17:35 eric256 9.3th? lol. way to commit
17:36 eric256 ehh i meant not work on strings..
17:36 autrijus declare it as List::shift
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17:37 eric256 thanks...now to figure out what that means. ;)
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17:38 eric256 thanks autrijus
17:38 svnbot6 r7656 | autrijus++ | * All-day pair poetry with Allison -- one stanza and one paragraph left
17:38 autrijus np :)
17:44 eric256 okay that was just way easy...is that documented somewhere that i should have found?
17:44 autrijus no... not really... suggestions welcome
17:45 fglock__ is List::Shift overridable (with plain p6)?
17:45 autrijus fglock__: sure!
17:45 autrijus it's just a sym bound in &List::shift
17:45 autrijus so you just rebind it
17:46 fglock__ does this mean I could install a Lazy list handler? :)
17:46 autrijus why, yes! :)
17:46 eric256 the opcodes can be overridden? /me needs a lesson in Pugs compiler hehe
17:47 autrijus rafl: if you put it in Prelude.pm then it'll even Just Work
17:49 * eric256 smiles as 45.shift now gives a sort of error ;)
17:50 autrijus <lwall> "Haskell makes hard things really easy, but easy things kinda hard"
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17:51 Khisanth that sounds like almost but not quite :)
17:52 Limbic_Region autrijus - has $larry learned Haskell yet or is he still an initiate?
17:52 eric256 how would i make that give a real error?  just define op1 "shift' = fail "Can't call shift on a non-List"?
17:52 autrijus Limbic_Region: he just said he was "humbled" as he found learning haskell really challenging
17:52 autrijus eric256: sure
17:52 Khisanth shift now works on Lists?
17:53 autrijus no, it should probably work on arrays (I hope)
17:53 eric256 shift worked on everything before.
17:53 eric256 should that be Array::shift then instead?
17:53 autrijus yeah, it was *shift
17:53 autrijus I think so yeah
17:53 autrijus (battery about-ish to run out of power)
17:54 fglock__ autrijus: in pugs, does 1..Inf create a List or an Array?
17:54 autrijus fglock__: List is value, Array is container, so it's a list
17:55 eric256 and shift/pop should only work on Array containers not List values?
17:55 autrijus I think so
17:55 * eric256 just trying to wrap his head around the verbiage
17:56 autrijus <lwall> "It's more important to design a language to be expert-friendly, than optimizing for least-surprise-ish newbie friendly"
17:56 fglock__ in "@a=(0, 1..Inf)", the array object contains 2 things? (that's how it works in pilrun)
17:56 Khisanth oh? when did he say that?
17:56 Limbic_Region you should be able to subscript a list but I personally don't think you should be able to shift/pop/unshift/push a list
17:56 Limbic_Region it feels un-natural
17:56 Khisanth Limbic_Region: AGREED!
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17:56 autrijus <lwall> "...otoh we still need to engineer a bit on the newbie friendly bit, or we end up reinventing Haskell"
17:57 Limbic_Region heh
17:57 Khisanth it conjures up visions of people doing silly things like "shift (1..10);"
17:57 eric256 umm fail drops clear out of pugs command line?
17:58 Limbic_Region I like having the ability to do $str .= (1..10, 'A'..'F')[ rand 16] for 1 .. 10; but think that's where the line should be drawn
17:58 autrijus eric256: shouldn't do that
17:58 Juerd fglock__: (0,1...) is (0...) with [1] already known, that's all
17:58 autrijus eric256: fail in Eval monad should fail gracefully
17:58 Limbic_Region otherwise lists should just be anonymous arrays
17:58 eric256 its definitly kicking me clear out.
17:58 Juerd Limbic_Region: 1..10, really?
17:58 Juerd 0..9?
17:58 autrijus eric256: weird
17:59 autrijus eric256: fail in IO monad would do that to you
17:59 eric256 dunno what that means. ;)
17:59 autrijus eric256: just commit :)
17:59 eric256 i removed the errors i added because they weren't working right
17:59 eric256 now i'll commit
17:59 Limbic_Region Juerd - the point was on the subscripting not on the accuracy of the range, but thanks ;-)
17:59 Juerd Limbic_Region: $str = concat [0..9,'A'..'F'].pick XX 16;
17:59 autrijus k
18:00 Limbic_Region Lists and Arrays are not the same thing - and shift/pop/unshift/push shouldn't work on lists IMO
18:00 autrijus Limbic_Region: sure
18:00 Juerd They *can't* work on lists
18:00 leo_ has joined #perl6
18:01 Juerd list : array :: ro : rw
18:01 eric256 commited but its not working. ;)
18:01 autrijus greetings leo san
18:01 leo_ hi autrijus
18:01 leo_ meeting time
18:01 autrijus meeting is during State of Onion
18:01 autrijus how wise!
18:01 obra leo_++ # doing my work for me ;)
18:01 Limbic_Region Juerd - they can work on lists is the point
18:01 eric256 opps... conflict..huh
18:01 Limbic_Region or rather - the current Haskell implementation anyway
18:02 eric256 ?check
18:02 svnbot6 r7657 | eric256++ | Prim.hs : Make shift only work on Array, but not realy because it doesn't work
18:02 * fglock__ goes back to playing with ext/Perl6-Value-List
18:03 eric256 autrijus...can you have a look because that completely broke shift. ;)
18:03 PerlJam eric256: "make it work but not really"?
18:04 eric256 hehe. autrijus wanted me to commit it ;)
18:04 autrijus eric256: ugh, I thought it worked ;)
18:05 autrijus my battery is on 6% and it's during larry/damian talk
18:05 eric256 i'll revert it for now
18:05 autrijus so probably not the best of times
18:05 autrijus k
18:05 autrijus I'll check the logs
18:05 eric256 ;) you said commit ;)
18:05 clkao autrijus: weird scientist!
18:05 autrijus eric256: yup, commit+revert is better than noop
18:05 autrijus as any clkao will tell you
18:06 clkao any(@clkao)
18:06 eric256 reverted
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18:08 svnbot6 r7658 | eric256++ | Prim.hs Reverting so it works ;)
18:08 evalbot_7658 has joined #perl6
18:08 autrijus no battery... over and out, bbl &
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18:34 whiteg ·QºÎı
18:34 whiteg err..sorry
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18:34 eric256 ?eval 52.pop
18:34 evalbot_7659 52
18:35 eric256 ?eval 52.shift;
18:35 evalbot_7659 52
18:35 eric256 thats not the new version
18:35 eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
18:35 evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
18:35 eric256 hehe. it says it is,...but it isn't, eval bot got confused
18:38 svnbot6 r7659 | eric256++ | Prim.hs - Fixed shift and pop to only work on arrays. (turns out its List::pop not Array::pop)
18:40 Juerd Limbic_Region: A list is not a *thing*
18:40 Juerd Limbic_Region: It is multiple things.
18:40 Juerd Limbic_Region: If shift works on a list, there are several possibilities
18:40 eric256 ....are you talking to me? i never called a list a thing.  i just know that in pugs internals i have to decare it as Lasti::shift
18:41 Khisanth why are you arguing to agree with Limbic_Region? :)
18:41 fglock__ cool - I've got "my $span = 0 .. Inf;" in plain pugs!
18:41 Juerd Limbic_Region: Either it treats the list as a language level thing, rather than a phenomenon, or it coerces the list to an array.
18:41 eric256 it doesn't however work on (1..5).shift
18:41 Juerd Khisanth: To get jargon straight
18:41 eric256 ohhh  /me missed the Limbic_Region on the front of that
18:42 eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
18:42 evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
18:44 eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
18:44 evalbot_7659 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7658)"
18:44 eric256 hmmm thats odd. feather is running the new one already....but eval bot isn't?
18:48 eric256 ?eval 5.shift;
18:48 evalbot_7659 5
18:50 svnbot6 r7660 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - added a test for Lazy "$span=0..Inf"
18:50 svnbot6 r7660 | fglock++ |   with proper isa(), reverse(), shift(), pop()
18:50 svnbot6 r7660 | fglock++ |   see t/array-lazy-overloaded.t
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18:59 eric256 ?eval 5.shift;
18:59 evalbot_7660 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
18:59 eric256 ;)
19:01 glasser_ hmm. i want to get into haskell.  you folks are nice, i bet you have good book recommendations?
19:01 Khisanth I have always found that to be a slightly useless error message
19:01 Khisanth glasser_: there is a READTHEM in the repo :)
19:01 glasser_ (i've played around with tutorials and read a fair amount of haskell, but haven't actually tried anything serious)
19:01 Khisanth it lists stuff to read
19:01 glasser_ Khisanth: oh duh, I knew that.  heh
19:01 eric256 i didn't pick the error message ;) i will experiment  with causes different messages, for now thats what i've got ;)
19:02 eric256 http://haskell.org/learning.html
19:02 glasser_ Bah, the two that my school have are already checked out.
19:02 Khisanth which two?
19:03 glasser_ School of Expression, and Craft of Function Programming (Hudak and Thompson)
19:03 glasser_ anyone familiar with the Bird one?
19:04 eric256 an th epage i linked to i found Yet Another Haskell Tutorial helpfull, but then i havn'te realy tried the others yest
19:04 * Khisanth hopes "The Fun of Programming" was not a pun
19:04 glasser_ I guess I'm looking less for a tutorial (since I get the very basic functional programming concepts) and more of a "how to get stuff done".
19:04 glasser_ of course the pugs tree is helpful there too :)
19:04 Khisanth eric256: I find that YAHT forces you to learn though I have only skimmed the others(online stuff) :)
19:05 Khisanth I am still looking for the "here is this function and this is what it does" sort of thing
19:06 Khisanth but #haskell is quite helpful :)
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19:13 eric256 yea Khisanth i needed forced to learn...now i'm reaching the point where i want a reference manual
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19:18 glasser yeah.
19:18 glasser like something that would tell me about the standard libs in GHC or whatever
19:20 glasser anyone have a preference between the thompson and the hudak, if i'm going to try to request one at my library?
19:20 Khisanth hmm there IS a page with the stuff in the Haskell prelude
19:20 forsaken has joined #perl6
19:20 glasser I mean I found http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/index.html and all, but sometimes a book is just nice :)
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20:21 svnbot6 r7661 | eric256++ | Fixed splice on scalar and un-Todo'ed tests for pop,shift,splice on scalars.
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20:23 eric256 ?eval (1..5).sum;
20:23 theorbtwo has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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20:23 eric256 yea Khisanth i needed forced to learn...now i'm reaching the point where i want a reference manual
20:23 eric256 arg
20:23 eric256 ?eval (1..5).sum;
20:23 evalbot_7661 15
20:23 eric256 ?eval (1..5).min;
20:23 evalbot_7661 1
20:23 eric256 ?eval (1..5).max;
20:23 evalbot_7661 5
20:23 eric256 ?eval max "hello";
20:23 evalbot_7661 "hello"
20:24 eric256 ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
20:24 evalbot_7661 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7661)"
20:27 svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
20:27 svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Per Larry
20:27 svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ |   (http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/23541): "self" is an
20:27 svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ |   alias for "$?SELF".
20:27 svnbot6 r7662 | iblech++ | * t/oo/magical_vars.t: Added tests for this.
20:28 wolverian yay, one step closer to running hq9+.p6!
20:28 eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl.say
20:28 evalbot_7661 1 bool::true
20:28 eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl
20:28 evalbot_7661 "1"
20:29 eric256 ?eval ([1]).perl
20:29 evalbot_7661 "[1]"
20:29 eric256 ?eval ((1,2)).perl
20:29 evalbot_7661 "(1, 2)"
20:29 eric256 why is the poor 1 being unlisted?
20:29 eric256 ?eval ((1,)).perl
20:29 evalbot_7661 "(1)"
20:29 eric256 ?eval ((1)).perl
20:29 evalbot_7661 "1"
20:29 eric256 realy question...is .perl broken...or is it realy seeing it that way?
20:29 wolverian that's how the syntax works
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20:30 eric256 realy?  ( ) arn't enough to impose a list contruct?
20:30 wolverian they don't do so in perl5; I don't think they do in perl5 either.
20:30 wolverian erm, s:2nd/perl5/perl6/
20:33 eric256 hmmm quick test shows you are right..
20:33 eric256 okay. just not what i expected ;)
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20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ | * t/var/caller.t: According to S02, only vars declared "is env" should be
20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ |   accessible via $CALLER::. Fixed the tests accordingly and added some new ones.
20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ | * PIL2JS: README:
20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ |   * Minor TODO update.
20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ |   * Should PIL2JS pre-generate constants
20:38 svnbot6 r7663 | iblech++ |     (http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000433.html)?
20:38 Juerd eric256: There should be no list constructor.
20:39 Juerd eric256: A list cannot exist in non-list context, and in list context, everything is a list.
20:39 Juerd eric256: The "list" operator is dubious and should generally be ignored, IMO
20:39 eric256 ?eval (1).sum
20:39 PerlJam Juerd: doesn't that make the builtin "list" operator a list constructor?  :)
20:39 Juerd (I cannot think of any reason to have or use it)
20:39 eric256 ?eval (1,2).sum
20:40 eric256 here bot...here bot
20:40 Juerd PerlJam: Yes, but it makes lists be things, which makes no sense with the rest of the language
20:40 Juerd PerlJam: I have yet to see a single instance of the list operator being needed or handy.
20:40 PerlJam Maybe if list were a long-hand way to write the splatty *
20:40 eric256 it just seems weird to me that the two above eval statmenst are soo different, first one is. 1.sum while the second is (1,2).sum
20:40 Juerd As far as I understand the logic, "list" is there for theoretical completeness, except that it is based on partial theory rather than the whole of Perl.
20:41 Juerd PerlJam: That'd be very, very misleading.
20:41 iblech has joined #perl6
20:43 iblech eric256: (Need to sleep soon, so can only stay here for a short time) (2) is in every aspect the same as 2, i.e. it's a plain scalar.
20:43 eric256 right. but (1,2) is not. which is what is confusing to me
20:43 Juerd eric256: (1,2) cannot be a plain scalar.
20:43 iblech Yep. (1,2) is an array, whose elements are aliases to the original vars -- ($foo,$bar)[0] =:= $foo is true
20:43 Juerd eric256: It is the comma operator in either scalar or list context (or void)
20:44 iblech (Also, (1,) is an array as well.)
20:44 eric256 and if you are coding then they look like they should be the same. i can understand and live with it, just misleading. but as was pointed out thats the way it is in perl5 too.
20:46 iblech Well, you can use this behaviour for clarity etc. -- ( long_expression ).foobar may be better than long_expression.foobar. And the parens are actually needed if you have to group things, think (~$foo).uc. If (~$foo) meant (~$foo,), (~$foo).uc couldn't work
20:46 eric256 true.
20:49 Juerd Sure it could
20:49 svnbot6 r7664 | fglock++ | * ext/Perl6-Value-List - proof-of-concept implementation of Lazy Array in plain Pugs
20:49 svnbot6 r7664 | fglock++ |   "my @a = 1..Inf; @a.pop;" returns Inf
20:49 Juerd But it'd require more radical consistency.
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20:50 iblech oooh fglock__++
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21:01 svnbot6 r7665 | iblech++ | Pugs.Prim: Fixed .perl for arrays containing only one elem, eric256++:
21:01 svnbot6 r7665 | iblech++ |   (3,4,5).perl  # (3,4,5)
21:01 svnbot6 r7665 | iblech++ |   (3,).perl     # (3,), *not* (3)
21:02 iblech Ok, sleep. Night all! :)
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21:05 nothingm1ch http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/eulalyzer.html
21:07 geoffb Okay . . . that such a product has a niche is just disturbing
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21:08 eric256 lol
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21:11 * eric256 begins to fear one of his *fixes* killed eval bot....;(
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21:16 SamB has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
21:17 buu NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
21:17 eric256 ?
21:22 r0nny has quit IRC ("sleep of the r0nny - now in your kind")
21:22 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:27 eric256 yea my fix isn't the one that killed eval bot!! ;)
21:27 eric256 endeclared variable $?SELF
21:44 migo__ has joined #perl6
21:53 saorge has joined #perl6
21:54 eric256 hehe. stock in a company we where considering getting a phone system from is now trading at  0.011 lol. should by a 100 shares just in case it goes up. lol
22:00 forsaken has quit IRC ("Leaving")
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22:16 Khisanth 1cent a share?
22:16 eric256 slightly more. lol but yea
22:17 eric256 we decided they might not be the most financialy secure company to do business with (not just based on share price but that left a real after taste )
22:23 * eric256 sees undeclarded variable $?SELF while trying .trans
22:23 eric256 anyone know what broke that?
22:24 eric256 looks like iblech aded an alias...but would that break $?SELF?  hmm
22:27 sapper has joined #perl6
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22:27 wolverian eric256, Larry doesn't like $?SELF now. ie: $?CLASS is static, $?SELF is dynamic
22:28 wolverian eric256, for now, just call it 'self'
22:28 eric256 lots of broken code then
22:28 wolverian trivial to fix.
22:29 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:29 eric256 you might think so....but why does .trans fail now?  that sub doesn't have $?SELF anywhere in it
22:30 wolverian right.
22:30 wolverian I don't know. :)
22:30 eric256 lol
22:36 eric256 okay something went wrong...its mad about $self....plan old user variable...
22:38 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "Odd $self behaviour" (6 lines, 207B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13762
22:39 * eric256 guesses that the rule is disregarding the $ for some reason
22:39 eric256 so it thinks i'm calling $?SELF when in fact i'm calling $self....anyone familary with rules? ;)
22:43 eric256 we should just call it $elf and be done. ;)
22:44 Shillo has joined #perl6
22:47 wolverian :)
22:48 eric256 are there any other barewords like that that i can look to for reference?
22:51 eric256 wolverian...you don't know of any? come on! lol
22:52 eric256 i don't even know why its droping the darn $...must be some way to get around this..lol
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23:02 eric256 has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
23:18 geoffb eric256 was clearly in a punchy mood, judging by the random bouts of laughter.  :-)
23:19 buu LOL
23:19 buu !
23:23 wolverian buu, looool!
23:23 buu lawl
23:24 Shillo Hehe. :)
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23:35 luqui has joined #perl6
23:36 luqui ?eval class Foo { method bar() { say $?SELF } }  Foo.new.bar
23:36 luqui oh, evalbot's not here
23:37 Juerd Hello
23:37 Juerd Is this the helpdesk?
23:37 Juerd Good
23:37 Juerd I have a problem.
23:37 Juerd My mouse mat doesn't work.
23:38 Juerd pad even
23:38 luqui er
23:38 luqui ?
23:38 Juerd I've tried everything. It does nothing.
23:39 Juerd Can you help me?
23:39 Juerd afk  # good night :)
23:40 geoffb Juerd, nothingm1ch: I got some (very tentative) interest from O'Reilly re: _Migrating to Perl 6_, so that's encouraging.
23:40 geoffb My reading of it was that if the community builds it, they would probably come.
23:42 geoffb But my previous experience is that the cleaner it is (so less work required on their end), probably the better deal we could get for the community.
23:44 eric256__ has joined #perl6
23:44 obra geoffb: also, what about copyright issues?
23:44 obra IE, what kinds of waivers do you need?
23:45 Juerd geoffb: Then let it be clean by setting strict guidelines and having a few people rewrite everything afterwards.
23:45 geoffb obra, that's a good question.  I understand little about the real pro and con of that sort of thing.
23:45 Juerd geoffb: In general, it's good news.
23:46 geoffb Juerd, I agree.
23:46 Juerd obra: They can publish something that is free documentation.
23:46 Juerd obra: They won't want to initially, but they should get used to this anyway.
23:46 geoffb obra, I'm thinking that since there is nothing relating to other kinds of IP law than copyright, then at worst if it became an issue, we'd just rewrite.  But best to probably start
23:46 geoffb with giving people a clear picture of the intentions, as nothingm1ch began to do.
23:47 Juerd obra: Their book has advantages over the same info elsewhere, and THAT is why people buy books.
23:47 geoffb Juerd, I thought they already do publish several free books?
23:47 Juerd geoffb: Yes, but they were always freed afterwards, as far as I know
23:47 geoffb Juerd, nodnod
23:48 Juerd Just make it creativecommons with attribution
23:48 Juerd Write a substantial part and you get published almost automatically, listed as author.
23:48 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:48 Juerd That's very attractive, I think :)
23:48 geoffb Juerd, I'm assuming CC Att/SA not appropriate?
23:49 Juerd SA is not enforcable.
23:49 obra right. free isn't an issue
23:49 geoffb Juerd, please explain, why not?
23:49 obra not being clear that the "authors" have the IP rights to the text can be
23:49 Juerd geoffb: Hard to find, hard to detect, especially with lots of copies floating around
23:50 Juerd geoffb: And there's no good way to sue offenders
23:50 geoffb geoffb, right, but can you still enforce against someone being obviously bad in public?
23:50 Juerd geoffb: It doesn't matter much anyway
23:50 obra All I'm suggesting is that someone ask ORA up front what their standards are for collectively edited books
23:50 Juerd Attribution is also not enforcable, but at least gives a big fish like O'Reilly the requirement to publish names
23:51 Juerd Appendix A - AUTHORS
23:51 geoffb Juerd, gotcha
23:51 Juerd :)
23:52 Juerd Anyway, I was going to bed
23:52 Juerd Bye
23:52 geoffb g'night Juerd
23:54 geoffb FWIW, O'Reilly blogs are now under CC Att / NC / SA 2.5, with ownership to the authors.
23:54 geoffb So clearly O'Reilly is accepting CC in at least some ways
23:55 nothingm1ch has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))

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