Camelia, the Perl 6 bug

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 geoffb Added a paragraph at the end of the kwiki page WRT CC licensing.
00:01 evalbot_7665 has joined #perl6
00:01 luqui ?eval say $self
00:01 evalbot_7665 Error: Undeclared variable: "$self"
00:01 luqui ?eval my $self = 4 ; say $self
00:01 evalbot_7665 4 bool::true
00:01 evalbot_7665 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
00:01 geoffb Wow, that was a short stay
00:01 mrborisguy evalbot didn't want to stay around very log
00:01 * coral blinks
00:02 coral that's not the usual behavior
00:02 coral luqui: the opengl firefox guy said he had no javascript bindings and isn't actively working on it
00:02 coral i didn't push for source code, pending your thoughts
00:02 luqui darn
00:03 luqui evalbot will be back shortly
00:03 luqui svnbot6 will tell you why he was absent shortly
00:04 evalbot_7666 has joined #perl6
00:04 luqui ?eval say "Hi! long time no see"
00:04 evalbot_7666 Hi! long time no see bool::true
00:05 stevan luqui: I think svnbot is down too
00:06 svnbot6 r7666 | luqui++ | Fixed a bug where $self was being interpreted as ${self}.  That's the problem
00:06 svnbot6 r7666 | luqui++ | with bare syntactic synonyms.  I have a feeling that it should be parsed like
00:06 svnbot6 r7666 | luqui++ | a nullary function and then folded in.
00:06 stevan horray !
00:07 Supaplex yippie
00:08 Supaplex so what we cheering for? ;)
00:08 stevan svnbot is alive
00:08 * Supaplex bear hugs svnbot6 *SQUISH*
00:11 geoffb Oh, I don't remember if I asked this before:  Are the new ?eval :js and ?eval :p5 subject to safe mode just like normal ?eval ?
00:12 * luqui has no idea
00:12 luqui that's probably iblech's territory
00:12 luqui If I recall that he wrote it correctly...
00:13 luqui ?eval :js say "booze"
00:13 evalbot_7666 *** Precompiled Prelude doesn't exist yet; precompiling...     (You can safely ignore the 'useless use of constant' warnings.) pugs: *** No compatible subroutine found: "&use"     at -e line 1, column 1 Use of uninitialized value in print at /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-bas​e/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 142. *** Reading input from "/tmp/YPbHrqflnf"... *** Compiling PIL to JavaScript... Can't bless non-reference value at /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-ba
00:13 geoffb iblech: OK, when you're back, my previous question is for you.
00:15 Supaplex nice hairball there evalbot_7666.
00:35 UnderDawg is now known as CaptFudd
01:05 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
01:14 feng has joined #perl6
01:16 hlen has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
01:20 hlen has joined #perl6
01:27 justatheory has joined #perl6
01:35 joepurl has joined #perl6
01:36 joepurl has quit IRC (Client Quit)
01:36 joepurl has joined #perl6
01:44 SamB has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer)
01:46 joepurl has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
01:49 joepurl has joined #perl6
01:52 arjanb has quit IRC ("zzz")
01:58 SamB has joined #perl6
02:15 eric256__ has left
02:18 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
03:01 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
03:05 rafl has joined #perl6
03:07 justatheory has quit IRC ()
03:41 nothingmuch good night
03:46 luqui good morning
03:50 luqui ?eval if 4 -> $x { say $x }
03:50 evalbot_7666 Error:  unexpected ">" or "i" expecting program reserved word
03:51 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
03:53 luqui ?eval class Foo { has $.bar }  Foo.new(bar => 42).bar
03:53 evalbot_7666 \42
03:59 luqui ?eval my ($x, $y) = (1,2);  say "$x ; $y"
03:59 evalbot_7666 1 ; 2 bool::true
04:00 luqui ?eval min(1,2,3)
04:00 evalbot_7666 1
04:04 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
04:06 scook0 has joined #perl6
04:11 feng has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
04:12 forsaken has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
04:13 luis_ has joined #perl6
04:16 evalbot_7666 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
04:17 evalbot_7667 has joined #perl6
04:17 svnbot6 r7667 | luqui++ | Added a hand-written attribute grammar into examples.  It worked perfectly.
04:17 svnbot6 r7667 | luqui++ | Pugs++ (crossing fingers hoping for little frustration).
04:18 luis_ has left "Leaving"
04:28 mrborisguy luqui: do you expect $x to hold bool::true in 'if 4 -> $x { say $x }' ?
04:30 luqui maybe
04:30 luqui couldn't remember
04:31 luqui I was wanting it to hold 4, especially since we outlawed = in "if"
04:31 brother_ has joined #perl6
04:38 mrborisguy ?eval if ( $x = 4 ) { say $x }
04:39 evalbot_7667 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
04:39 mrborisguy ?eval my $x = 0; if ( $x = 4 ) { say $x }
04:39 evalbot_7667 4 bool::true
04:39 luqui I don't thunk pugs outlaws it
04:39 mrborisguy you're saying that will be illegal?
04:42 mrborisguy I guess I have never had to do that before, but is what you were trying going to be legal then?
04:44 brother has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
05:01 nothingmuch has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
05:31 tewk has joined #perl6
05:52 GeJ has joined #perl6
06:03 wolverian luqui, boggle, outlaw = in if? that feels weird.
06:09 migo__ has joined #perl6
06:13 luqui has quit IRC ("This computer has gone to sleep")
06:16 r0nny has joined #perl6
06:37 brother_ is now known as brother
06:55 jql hmm
06:55 migo__ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
07:02 autrijus greetings!
07:02 jql howdy
07:02 autrijus I finished 1 slide out of 3! ;)
07:02 obra autrijus! hi!
07:02 obra for what?
07:03 autrijus (due in 2 hours)
07:03 autrijus s/slide/talk/
07:03 obra heh
07:03 Juerd A three slide talk? Are those cinema screen slides on which you can put entire stories, or is it a lightening talk? :)
07:03 obra I should start my talk for npw
07:03 Juerd Oh, one talk :)
07:03 autrijus please sanity check. http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/vb.xul
07:04 Juerd autrijus: I find the first slide rather scary.
07:04 * Juerd clicks.
07:04 jql it rocketh?
07:04 autrijus (mock olde english)
07:05 Juerd .oO( autrijus also began with basic. there's still hope for me! )
07:05 jql I wonder if wikipedia.org has ever been entered into QBASIC before
07:05 autrijus jql: that pic is from wikipedia.
07:05 rafl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
07:05 autrijus Juerd: larry just admitted thatyesterday at state of onion
07:05 jql it seemed odd
07:06 Juerd We're all a bunch of basic losers? This is upsetting news.
07:06 autrijus lol
07:06 autrijus no, it's just we are no longer denying our past :p
07:06 autrijus childhood trauma and therapy and all that
07:06 elmex has joined #perl6
07:07 Juerd heh
07:07 jql one of my co-workers would be traumatized by this presentation
07:07 Juerd I've always _
07:07 Juerd hated that in vb
07:07 * jql downloads
07:07 autrijus I hope the message is clear :)
07:08 autrijus (which is all I can hope for in a controversial talk)
07:08 Juerd What is the message?
07:08 Juerd That MS is evil? :)
07:08 Juerd They made basic un-basic.
07:08 autrijus no, that it's evolve or die :)
07:08 Juerd Oh
07:09 jql even old dogs can learn new tricks
07:09 autrijus (which is a point a certain Juerd raised +Inf times on p6l :))
07:09 Juerd I did? :)
07:09 autrijus iirc yes :)
07:10 Juerd I've never said it this clearly though :)
07:10 autrijus *nod*
07:10 Juerd What was the first basic dialect you used?
07:11 * jql wants inline SQL and XML, now
07:11 Juerd I began with gwbasic, and did c64, c16, ibm a/c basic later (going backwards in time because I felt like it)
07:11 Juerd jql: Inline SQL is neat, inline XML... evil.
07:11 autrijus Juerd: GW or BASICA
07:11 autrijus around the same time
07:12 autrijus inline xml + query is very nifty.
07:12 autrijus as it's based on desugaring
07:12 autrijus not kludged in
07:12 Juerd jql: macro select is parsed /<SQL::select>/ { ... }
07:12 jql Juerd: inline xml is bad, DOM methods are worse
07:12 Juerd autrijus: basica is ibm a basic :)
07:12 Juerd "Advanced" basic :)
07:13 Juerd Which it was, compared to IBM "Cassette" BASIC, which was found mostly in PC roms
07:13 Juerd Remove harddrive, remove floppy, reboot, basic!
07:14 autrijus I... remember that
07:14 autrijus it's taught in our elementary school 2nd grade.
07:14 * autrijus screams quietly
07:14 Juerd ...
07:14 Juerd Can't beat that :)
07:14 Aankhen`` has joined #perl6
07:15 Juerd I got taught in school, 3rd class (age 14), that the "space bar is the long unlabeled key"
07:15 Juerd I tried to convince them that "property of Insula College" was in fact a label
07:15 Juerd But they never listened...
07:15 autrijus mariner.xul: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mariner.xul
07:16 autrijus it's missing one stanza + one para.
07:16 autrijus help... welcome. but review of existing verse will help a lot too
07:17 Aankhen`` "\n+ and \w+" on slide 6 seems awkward...
07:17 iblechbot has joined #perl6
07:17 Juerd autrijus: basic slides look sane
07:18 autrijus Aankhen``: reads: "lines and words"
07:18 Aankhen`` Ah.
07:18 Aankhen`` Mi bad.
07:18 autrijus "comp.lang.perl" reads "CLP"
07:18 autrijus nah :)
07:18 autrijus (it's got a #comment in the pugs repo)
07:20 larsen has joined #perl6
07:21 * jql ponders the p6l graphics thread
07:22 kcwu has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
07:22 kcwu has joined #perl6
07:32 thomason has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:34 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("BRB [Time wasted online: 19mins 25secs]")
07:39 geoffb autrijus, ping
07:41 gaal autrijus: s/that tarried/who tarried/
07:42 autrijus geoffb: pong
07:42 autrijus gaal: original:
07:42 autrijus Eärendil was a mariner
07:42 autrijus that tarried in Arvenien;
07:42 geoffb autrijus, in VB slides, 9 is not a prime number.  :-)
07:42 autrijus blame amanda :)
07:42 gaal WELL TOLKEIN OBVISOULY DIDN'T KNOW ENGLISH. errr.
07:42 geoffb amanda?
07:43 autrijus geoffb: fixed
07:43 autrijus geoffb: the woman among the \ninjas
07:43 geoffb ah
07:43 coral |greetings
07:43 geoffb tease her.  :-)
07:43 autrijus ;)
07:43 autrijus should I still change it to "who tarried" ?
07:43 autrijus probably a good idea
07:43 gaal I still don't like the tall / Camel rhyme, but can't think of anything better :(
07:44 geoffb greetings, coral
07:44 coral enamel
07:44 gaal yeah, considered that but it couldn't make it fit
07:44 coral a smile of enamel, depending on the purpose for the rhyme
07:44 autrijus (also, stanza 5 needs help :D)
07:44 gaal what language is the Camel transation there, Polish?
07:44 coral stanza 5 of
07:44 autrijus # docs/talks/larry_mariner.txt line 64
07:45 coral heh
07:45 autrijus hopefully I'll find allison after this keynote session and get it done
07:45 autrijus otherwise we'll be forced to drop that, which is sad, as I'd like to name lots of communities.
07:45 autrijus (oh boy, on air in 90 mins)
07:46 gaal rather minor, but the fixed-width and proportional fonts aren't exactly lined up (eg "blessed" is a little higher on the line)
07:47 autrijus gaal: it worksforme here and I think it's going to be ok :)
07:47 gaal "at least he came to Version Five" -> "at last", no?
07:47 geoffb gaal, I was thinking the same thing
07:47 autrijus "at last" is correct
07:48 gaal "the comp.lang.perl"... would "and" work better than "the"?
07:49 autrijus gaal++
07:49 svnbot6 r7668 | autrijus++ | * Finished the missing para in the last stanza
07:49 svnbot6 r7668 | autrijus++ | * contribs from #perl6
07:49 gaal "of a fresh Community Rewrite", perhaps the "a" can be dropped for better scanning
07:50 gaal "a-glimmer" can be spelled simply "aglimmer", I think
07:50 geoffb .oO( Global Thermonuclear Talk Editing )
07:50 autrijus gaal: done. a-glimmer is original, probably not going to change
07:51 gaal I love the "tallied the RFCs" slide :)
07:51 gaal OK
07:53 evalbot_7667 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:53 gaal "till Code should fade, **an** gliding star"?
07:54 evalbot_7670 has joined #perl6
07:54 gaal is it in the meaning of "and"? because archaic "an" means "if", not "and".
07:54 autrijus fixed
07:54 gaal if it's "and" then it oughta be spelled "an'"
07:54 autrijus no, simply was "an orbed star"
07:55 gaal is there mention of "we" in the original?
07:55 svnbot6 r7669 | autrijus++ | * s/the/and/ in CPAN stanza
07:55 svnbot6 r7669 | autrijus++ | * s/messy mess/noisy mess/
07:55 svnbot6 r7670 | autrijus++ | * s/of a fresh/of fresh/ in #7 to scan better.
07:55 svnbot6 r7671 | autrijus++ | * more grammos picked out by gaal
07:55 autrijus nope.
07:57 gaal Stanza 5 is good, but what's Tarmenel?
07:58 autrijus it's this high heaven thing in Vanilor
07:58 gaal (Tolkein reference? I don't remember that well enough)
07:58 autrijus #5 is unadapted!
07:58 autrijus (it's not in .xlu)
07:58 gaal hahaha!
07:59 evalbot_7670 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
07:59 gaal maybe leave it verbatim, but add images dickh style?
07:59 evalbot_7671 has joined #perl6
07:59 gaal hard to do in xul though.
08:00 autrijus not hard at all
08:00 gaal i mean simultaneously with the text
08:00 gaal so you don't break your pace
08:01 autrijus sure, easily
08:01 autrijus I'll try that.
08:01 autrijus gaal++ # foundatin of good ideas
08:01 gaal it's striking how well the original fits, but well, that's kind of the point :)
08:02 autrijus :D
08:02 gaal #8: "and OO tricks were sought from him." sought *from* him or *for* him?
08:02 autrijus both works
08:02 geoffb . . . thank $deity, just when I thought the new perl 5 build would *never* make it into testing . . . it just did, carrying a wave behind it
08:03 autrijus I'd like a better word than "tricks" too
08:03 gaal spells? let's see
08:03 autrijus gaal: I'll go with "sought for"
08:03 autrijus gaal: er no, something more "frames" "class tree"
08:04 gaal k
08:05 gaal "Classic trees" would not be understandable enough.
08:05 autrijus nope.
08:05 gaal If we keep "OO" we only have one syllable to work with. Golf.
08:06 gaal (no, i
08:06 Khisanth has quit IRC ("Leaving")
08:06 gaal 'm not suggesting "OO Golf" :-)
08:07 Khisanth has joined #perl6
08:07 autrijus "tricks" is good enough
08:08 gaal yeah
08:08 gaal "we'll land at last on far-away shores" -> s/far-away/distant/ # scans better
08:09 gaal the "we" sounds funny though. But ACK why it's there.
08:10 autrijus distant is better.
08:12 autrijus I adapted stanza 5.
08:12 gaal "But on him mighty fate was laid"... "mighty boon" perhaps? to ring better with the original, but i'm not sure it's "correct" in context.
08:12 autrijus investingating into flashpic
08:12 gaal pulling
08:13 autrijus boon is good.
08:14 autrijus (commit is slow)
08:14 geoffb gaal++ # excellent editing
08:14 autrijus xul reuploaded
08:14 gaal thanks :)
08:15 gaal autrijus, when you come here i hope you'll get to visit one of our word game nights.
08:15 autrijus sure!
08:16 gaal Stanza 5 is showing up all as one block of text on my browser
08:17 gaal in ghci, can't i make a data declaration?
08:17 autrijus no, need separate compilation unit for that
08:17 svnbot6 r7672 | autrijus++ | * stanza 5 and more gaal fixes
08:18 gaal yeah, i can understand why. but too bad :)
08:18 autrijus I fixed the xul.
08:18 autrijus scp'ed up
08:19 gaal rafl: ping payload{ "can you do something about bug #319812 ?" }
08:20 gaal s/otherworlds/other worlds/
08:20 evalbot_7671 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
08:20 evalbot_7672 has joined #perl6
08:20 autrijus whew, it's looking good now
08:20 autrijus #perl6++
08:21 gaal hmm, syntax error. should be ping{ payload = .... }
08:21 gaal autrijus++ :)
08:22 geoffb autrijus, does OpenFoundry have a way to send an email to the staff of a project?
08:22 geoffb (presumeably open to admins only or perhaps project team members only)
08:22 autrijus geoffb: yes, creating a new ticket should do that
08:23 autrijus you can also make a mailing list and subscribe [email@hidden.address]
08:23 gaal funny how we never made use of a ticket system. # "t/pugsbugs is our ticket system!"
08:24 geoffb autrijus, I think I may do the former.  I don't want to ever have to manually remember to add someone to the list, just know that it will get to everyone.
08:25 autrijus nodnod.
08:25 autrijus gaal: indeed... it's a much more tightly integrated ticketing system
08:25 autrijus battery low... about to switch off in a bit
08:25 autrijus and this Alan Cox talk is nice
08:27 gaal see you later. I'm looking for improvements to s10
08:28 gaal ("So cunning its assembly", cunning yes, scanning no)
08:29 autrijus "assembly" pronounced as 4syl.
08:29 autrijus as-sem-ble-ly
08:30 gaal yeah, but after the previous line which also cheats a bit...
08:30 chihchun has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:30 autrijus ...makes it a piers contribution. yes.
08:30 autrijus (he insisted we need to fit in "Continuation" at some point.)
08:30 gaal "piers contribution"? ah :)
08:31 autrijus suggestions welcome :)
08:31 gaal if this were slightly less constraints, we could simply use enjambment:
08:31 gaal Continuations!  What subtle / art! So cunning its assembly
08:31 gaal but that won't work here i'm afraid.
08:32 gaal s/constraints/constrained/
08:32 autrijus aye.
08:33 autrijus brb&
08:33 gaal hexasyllabic words tend to throw off tetrameter :)
08:33 gaal s/hexa/penta/
08:33 geoffb autrijus, how do you create a new version for a project in OF, so it will appear in the RT ticket dropdowns?
08:35 gaal geoffb: login, then do "New Project"
08:35 fdoob has joined #perl6
08:36 gaal i think. but what is a new version of a project?
08:36 geoffb gaal, I don't want a new project, I just want a new version, so that when I create an RT ticket, I can say that it is for version 1.20.6, for example.
08:37 geoffb Right now, the dropdowns are empty, and the "Version" blurb in the left gutter says "No Releases"
08:37 gaal ah, that kind of version :)
08:37 geoffb AH!  Found it!
08:37 geoffb It's under "Release Plans" in the left gutter menu
08:38 gaal geoffb: Release Plans
08:38 gaal oh
08:38 gaal heh.
08:38 geoffb It's taking me a while to get used to the new UI
08:39 geoffb Aside from not having admin'ed a project in RT before . . . :-)
08:39 gaal autrijus: I think the "What" can simply be omitted, and punctuation changed.
08:39 gaal Continuations, subtle art
08:40 gaal So cunning its assembly!
08:40 gaal thought the "so" wants to be strengthened still.
08:41 gaal oh, and s/its/in/
08:48 fdoob has left
08:52 rafl has joined #perl6
08:53 scook0 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
08:54 scook0 has joined #perl6
09:00 thomason has joined #perl6
09:05 gaal or
09:05 gaal Assembled $padding cunningly
09:11 gaal "the λ-powered Pugs did fly" - this sounds like a line out of Jabberwocky
09:12 gaal shower&
09:20 autrijus Continuations -- subtle art,
09:20 autrijus so cunning in its assembly!
09:20 autrijus what about that?
09:21 autrijus or
09:21 autrijus Continuations -- subtle art!
09:21 autrijus So cunning in its assembly!
09:22 lukhnos Must it be in plural?
09:22 autrijus nope
09:22 autrijus singular works fine
09:23 lukhnos So cunning art thou, subtle techne
09:24 lukhnos Ye continuations in your assembly
09:24 lukhnos s/art thou/ye disclose/
09:25 autrijus lukhnos: that scaneth not
09:25 svnbot6 r7673 | autrijus++ | * Continuation is now even more subtle, thanks to gaal and lukhnos
09:25 autrijus lukhnos: # http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/mariner.xul
09:26 evalbot_7672 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:26 evalbot_7673 has joined #perl6
09:26 lukhnos ah
09:27 lukhnos autrijus: actually techne and assembly rhyme in English
09:28 autrijus yeah, it rhymes, just not scans
09:29 lukhnos autrijus: which meter are you using
09:31 clkao lukhnos!
09:31 autrijus lukhnos: 7-8 syl each sentence
09:32 lukhnos mr. kao :)
09:32 autrijus yours have 9
09:32 lukhnos autrijus: so qudrameter ?
09:32 autrijus aye
09:34 gaal rehi
09:35 lukhnos continuations alone takes 5
09:36 evalbot_7673 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:36 gaal Maybe s/So cunning/cunning so/
09:36 svnbot6 r7674 | autrijus++ | * last-second checkin from
09:37 evalbot_7674 has joined #perl6
09:37 gaal and normalize capitalizations of first words...
09:37 gaal it's going live? good luck! :)
09:38 lukhnos gaal: "Cunning so are ye" ?
09:38 gaal i hope there's a vid capture.
09:38 gaal lukhnos: he hasn't been using apostrophe in the rest of the poem, so i think not.
09:45 autrijus going live now
09:45 autrijus last-second allison checkin is sane I hope
09:46 gaal Monger crew, no?
09:51 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
09:52 autrijus gaal: fixed, please fix in the repo
09:53 gaal k
09:53 gaal committed
09:54 autrijus gaal++
09:54 svnbot6 r7675 | gaal++ | s/Mongers/Monger/
09:57 evalbot_7674 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:57 evalbot_7675 has joined #perl6
09:59 jiing has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:59 jiing has joined #perl6
09:59 ycheng has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
09:59 ycheng has joined #perl6
09:59 iblechbot has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:02 autrijus the vb one went very well!
10:05 gaal yay! a good vb implies a bright future for clr pugs :)
10:08 r0nny_ has joined #perl6
10:09 acme__ was nice
10:16 chihchun has joined #perl6
10:24 theorbtwo has joined #perl6
10:25 r0nny has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
10:33 dada has joined #perl6
10:45 pdcawley has joined #perl6
10:45 gaal is the vb talk online?
10:48 GeJ I think autrijus posted it... hum...
10:48 GeJ there it is: http://perlcabal.org/~autrijus/tmp/vb.xul
10:50 gaal cheers :)
10:53 gaal who can identify the \-ninjas?
10:53 arjanb has joined #perl6
10:54 gaal I think until I met autrijus I thought "Woot" was a syntax error in Basic.
10:55 gaal what does the underscore mean? "select p _ from p in primes _"
10:56 GeJ One of them is actually a kunoichi. Amanda is the name. <autrijus> blame amanda :) [...] <autrijus> geoffb: the woman among the \ninjas
10:57 gaal #perl6 increasing wikipedia traffic..     thanks :)
11:01 GeJ Well, if only wikipedia knew about this GADT guy you're all talking about. :)
11:05 gaal http://haskell.org/hawiki/QuotesPa​ge?action=highlight&amp;value=gadt ;-)
11:06 GeJ #perl6 increasing haskell.org's logfile since 2005... Thanks :)
11:07 pdcawley has quit IRC ()
11:42 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
11:43 iblechbot has joined #perl6
11:50 pdcawley has joined #perl6
12:09 feng has joined #perl6
12:09 orafu has joined #perl6
12:17 autrijus gaal: the _ means "continued at next line"
12:17 autrijus it's what you get instead of semicolons.
12:17 autrijus (the pugs talk just concluded -- it went pretty well.)
12:17 theorbtwo Cool!
12:17 theorbtwo The unicode abuse one?
12:17 autrijus yeah
12:18 gaal ah, so it's like \
12:18 gaal but they wanted to save that to mean lambda in version 10
12:19 autrijus no, lambda has no sigil there
12:19 autrijus they are too smart
12:19 autrijus \x -> x + 1
12:19 autrijus in vb is just
12:19 autrijus x => x+1
12:20 fglock__ autrijus: porting basic lazy array operations to pugs looks easy - now I'm trying to find out how to implement slices
12:20 autrijus fglock__: ooooh
12:20 autrijus "\x y -> x + y" becomes "x y => x + y"
12:20 theorbtwo Wait... the joke about the VB team being taken over by crazy lambadites was ha-ha-only-serious?
12:20 gaal yepsters.
12:21 autrijus it is serious -- Erik Meijer is responsible (among other things) for HaskellDB, Parsec, HSP
12:21 fglock__ it would be nice if there were function names for slice operations
12:21 autrijus fglock__: &circumfix:<[ ]>
12:21 gaal theorbtwo: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/view/967
12:21 theorbtwo Wow.
12:22 autrijus either amanda or paul is also a long time academician
12:22 fglock__ I'll try it - thanks
12:22 autrijus fglock__: prolly won't work -- it's a Syn form in haskell runtime
12:22 scook0 has quit IRC ("Leaving")
12:22 autrijus but that may work for PIL
12:22 autrijus but we can fix the haskell runtime so it works
12:23 fglock__ it does work in PIL - we use it in pilrun
12:23 autrijus I'll brb though, need to proc mudane things I ignored for ages
12:23 autrijus nodnod
12:23 justatheory has joined #perl6
12:31 pdcawley has quit IRC ()
12:31 kolibrie has joined #perl6
12:35 * gaal wonders what "!!" (as opposed to "!") means in ghc --show-iface output for Strictness.
12:35 autrijus unboxed and strict?
12:35 autrijus (wild gues)
12:35 SamB has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12:38 gaal autrijus: could well be, since so far I'm only seeing it for Int fields.
12:39 autrijus cool
12:41 gaal um, I need a p5 re idiom, that splits but honors parens.
12:41 gaal a b (c d e) (f (g h)) => 4 elements
12:41 justatheory has quit IRC ()
12:41 gaal can i get away with not using a modules for that?
12:42 gaal s/a modules/Text::Balanced/
12:43 gaal then again, T:B is core. nice.
12:45 fglock__ autrijus: re array slice - it looks like postcircumfix:[] is not redefinable - I tried: "multi postcircumfix:<[ ]> ( *@a ) { warn "SLICE" }"
12:46 autrijus fglock__: ok, can you write a pugsbug for that
12:47 fglock__ sorry - you mean a test or a bug report?
12:47 autrijus test
12:47 fglock__ k
12:48 autrijus a test _is_ a bug report :)
12:48 fglock__ :)
12:48 gaal hee
12:53 gaal surely there is a better way to do what i want than this:
12:53 gaal #  map { /^\(/ ? $_ : split } Text::Balanced::extract_multiple($string_to_parse, [ sub { Text::Balanced::extract_bracketed($_[0],"()") }, ] )
12:54 autrijus you can import and stop using fully qualified functions :)
12:54 gaal just looking at this makes me want to join a haskell monastery and grok Parsec already
12:54 autrijus sure, you can take the baskell or harrorth code and run with it
12:56 gaal it's kinda funny that i started out by thinking perl's just the tool to help hoogle get its lib data, and now i'm hankering for haskell.
12:56 gaal maybe i should code this in Perl 6 instead?
12:56 autrijus that can work too
12:57 gaal we need Parlsec.pm
12:57 autrijus then you can "import Pugs" and use it in hoogle ;)
12:57 autrijus yeah, iblech has a small one in p5
12:57 autrijus he used it to parse PIL2JS
12:57 autrijus look at some back versions
12:57 autrijus it's a partial clone of parsec
12:58 gaal well, as soon as ghc-cvs gets fixed in debian i'm adding pugs to lambdabot :)
12:58 fglock__ does the name "t/data_types/array_multisub.t" makes sense?
12:58 autrijus :D
12:58 autrijus fglock__: sure thing
12:58 autrijus fglock__: array_slice ?
12:58 autrijus array_mmd?
12:58 autrijus your works too
12:59 fglock__ array_mmd is ok
13:05 Blicero has joined #perl6
13:12 adamc00 has joined #perl6
13:14 evalbot_7675 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
13:14 evalbot_7676 has joined #perl6
13:14 fglock__ redefining Array broke Test.pm - so I'm using plain say("ok") instead
13:16 svnbot6 r7676 | fglock++ | * added tests for Array method redefinitions: t/data_types/array_mmd.t
13:19 Qiang has joined #perl6
13:23 iblechbot has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
13:24 jp-autark I'm playing around a bit with the embeded perl5 stuff, with hashes I can call both .keys and .values but not .kv - which files in the source tree should I be looking at to fix this?
13:26 adamc00 has quit IRC ("Leaving")
13:31 ramkrsna has joined #perl6
13:33 fglock__ jp-autark: src/perl5/ - but I'm not familiar with these files, sorry
13:33 svnbot6 r7677 | fglock++ | * fixed t/data_types/array_mmd.t - uses Test.pm
13:35 evalbot_7676 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
13:35 evalbot_7677 has joined #perl6
13:40 jp-autark fglock__: thanks, I was stuck in Pugs/Embed/Perl5.hs -- I'll have a look at the perl5/ dir and see if I can grook anything.
13:49 joepurl has joined #perl6
14:07 iblechbot has joined #perl6
14:19 stevan has quit IRC ("Leaving")
14:20 stevan has joined #perl6
14:21 elmex has joined #perl6
14:29 eric256 has joined #perl6
14:43 eric256 shouldn't passing named parameteres that arn't in the signature be an error?
14:54 eric256 i mean otherwise if you pass something with a name that overlaps an actual namein the sub would that break it?
14:54 eric256 ?eval sub x () { my $self = 5; return $self; };  x(self=>2);
14:54 evalbot_7677 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&x"
14:55 eric256 ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; };  x(self=>2);
14:55 evalbot_7677 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
14:55 eric256 ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; };  x(2);
14:55 evalbot_7677 \5
14:55 eric256 ?eval sub x ( Pair *@a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; };  x(self => 5);
14:55 evalbot_7677 \5
14:55 eric256 okay so it doesn't over right...but it doesn't exactly DWIM either...i dunno.
14:59 stef_ has joined #perl6
15:04 iblech has joined #perl6
15:04 iblech eric256: Yep, that's a bug (already tested for in t/subroutines/sub_named_params.t and partly in t/syntax/pairs.t)
15:05 iblech geoffb: -BJS doesn't need a special safemode, as -BJS can't do *any* IO (except print, of course)
15:05 brother ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x (self=>2);
15:05 evalbot_7677 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
15:06 brother ?eval sub x ( @a ) { my $self = 5; return $self; }; x(self=>2);
15:06 evalbot_7677 Error: Insufficient number of required parameters: 0 actual, 1 expected
15:06 iblech ?eval $?PUGS_VERSION
15:06 evalbot_7677 \"Perl6 User\'s Golfing System, version 6.2.10, October 10, 2005 (r7677)"
15:07 iblech ?eval my $self = 5; $self
15:07 evalbot_7677 \5
15:07 iblech ?eval (self => 3)
15:07 evalbot_7677 Error: Undeclared variable: "$?SELF"
15:07 brother besides the $?SELF-thingy. is the difference with og without a space between the functioname and the start parens intentional?
15:08 stef_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:09 xerox has joined #perl6
15:09 xerox Yow!
15:09 iblech Yep. foo (1,2) passes the array (1,2) to &foo, while foo(1,2) passes the two args 1 and 2 to &foo (see docs/quickref/control)
15:10 xerox Where could I look for finding something unimplemented/to-be-fixed that a lambdafolk can implement/fix, without deep p6 knowlegde?
15:11 hexmode has joined #perl6
15:11 iblech xerox: Hm... t/pugsbugs/*.t?
15:12 * xerox looks
15:12 stef_ has joined #perl6
15:14 Eimi has joined #perl6
15:17 luqui has joined #perl6
15:17 elmex ???
15:17 eric256 iblech..is it a bug or just a missing error?  i guess a missing error could be considered a bug
15:18 iblech eric256: It's not yet implemented
15:18 iblech which brings me to...:
15:18 luqui has quit IRC (Client Quit)
15:18 eric256 would it be impossible for a (*@) signature to accept named args as pairs?  so that trans could just be plain old .trans( [1..5]=>5);  i'm still working on fitting a knowledge of pairs into programming since we didn't have them before.. but it seems ti would be nice to accept pairs right in the arg list
15:19 iblech xerox: sub foo (+$named_only_argument) {...}; foo() does work, while it should not. Want to fix? :)
15:19 xerox Compiling pugs now, the system is a bit off of resources during the process :D
15:20 iblech Not in the current proposal -- *@ only slurps up positional args. If you want to slurp nameds, you've to use *% (but I see that this a) stringifies the keys and b) mixes the ordering)
15:20 eric256 exactly
15:21 eric256 **@?? ;)
15:21 iblech xerox: Err, thinko -- sub foo (+$named_only_argument) {...}; foo($this_is_passed_positionally) does work, while it should not
15:22 iblech ;)
15:22 brother method trans (Str $self; **@??inpairs) -- yikes
15:23 eric256 why the ?? oohhh.. .lol i meant **@    ?? ;)
15:23 eric256 method trans (Str $self: **@inpairs) { }';
15:24 svnbot6 r7678 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
15:24 svnbot6 r7678 | iblech++ | * t/oo/magical_vars.t: "self", outside of a method, shouldn't work.
15:24 svnbot6 r7678 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Parser: Removed special parsing for "self" (broke (self => 42))...
15:24 svnbot6 r7678 | iblech++ | * Pugs.Prim: ...and added &self, like luqui++ suggested.
15:24 xerox iblech: what's the syntax for named arguments passing?
15:24 iblech xerox: foo(named => "argument")
15:24 xerox It doesn't work without names here.
15:24 iblech (And it should only succeed if &foo has a signature of (+$named) or (++$named))
15:24 xerox Oh, it does.
15:24 brother Well, better get home and find another project to hack on.
15:25 iblech ?eval sub foo (+$bar) {}; foo(42);  # works while it should not
15:25 evalbot_7677 undef
15:28 ramkrsna has quit IRC (No route to host)
15:28 evalbot_7677 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:29 evalbot_7678 has joined #perl6
15:33 nothingmuch wow, the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy movie absolutely sucks
15:33 eric256 nah. its just not the book
15:33 * kolibrie decides not to go see it
15:33 nothingmuch regardless of the book
15:33 eric256 but if you ever go to a moive about a book don't expect much ;)
15:33 nothingmuch it's like "oh, that's cool, let's put it there, and then cut to another funny joke"
15:33 nothingmuch there is absolutely no plot line
15:33 eric256 that is kind of like the books ;)
15:34 nothingmuch the books have a nice way of progressing
15:34 nothingmuch the movie goes nowhere
15:34 theorbtwo Odd; Rozzalin liked it.
15:35 nothingmuch also, i think the acting is really lousy
15:35 eric256 from what i remember of the books they often had very little plot too, but its been a while.  i still liked it.  anyone who goes to a movie expecting much plot these days is going to be a bit dissapointed ;)
15:35 theorbtwo eric256, Rozallin.
15:35 nothingmuch heh
15:35 pdcawley has joined #perl6
15:35 theorbtwo Grr.
15:35 theorbtwo er, Rozallin.
15:36 theorbtwo irssi has the habit, of late, of replacing things matching ^([^ ])+, with a username.
15:36 eric256 see i thought that bad acting and cheesy everything went well with it.   didn't like some of the changes but they weren't that huge ;)
15:39 sapper has joined #perl6
15:39 Eimi On the whole I liked it, but it felt just a little to aware of how cheesy it was.  The books felt to me like most of the characters (aside from Arthur) didn't have any idea how silly it all was.  Matter-of-fact presentation of the absurd.
15:44 evalbot_7678 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:44 svnbot6 r7679 | iblech++ | t/builtins/strings/trans.t: Fixed test (with pairs being demagicalized now),
15:44 svnbot6 r7679 | iblech++ | parens around the pairs are needed now. Also added a test for <== (suggested by
15:44 svnbot6 r7679 | iblech++ | Larry), which would allow dropping the parens.
15:44 evalbot_7679 has joined #perl6
15:50 evalbot_7679 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:50 svnbot6 r7680 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: PIL, PIL::PVal: Implemented pre-generating constants, as described in
15:50 svnbot6 r7680 | iblech++ | http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/​blog/archives/000433.html. Unfortunately, this
15:50 svnbot6 r7680 | iblech++ | optimization technique doesn't make a difference, so I'll revert this commit
15:50 svnbot6 r7680 | iblech++ | (just want to have it in the VCS).
15:50 evalbot_7680 has joined #perl6
15:53 svnbot6 r7681 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: PIL, PIL::PVal: Reverted r7680 as promised.
15:56 evalbot_7680 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:56 evalbot_7681 has joined #perl6
16:02 * eric256 posted his proposal to p6l which will probably be shot down, but like autrijus said, a commited and revert is better than a noop ;)
16:05 cjb has joined #perl6
16:05 cjb Hello.  Does anyone happen to know if/where video of EuroOSCON talks is being published?
16:08 pdcawley has quit IRC ()
16:09 rafl That would be great.
16:12 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
16:12 fglock__ cjb: this is from the YAPC: http://use.perl.org/article.pl?s​id=05/09/29/0936235&amp;from=rss - re OSCON, I only know of this: http://whytheluckystiff.net/starry/
16:13 * eric256 wonders what rafl was refering too ;)
16:14 cjb fglock__: I'm talking about EuroOSCON, which is happening now and which autrijus is speaking at, and not US OSCON.
16:15 autrijus aye.
16:15 autrijus cjb: I don't know of a video
16:16 cjb autrijus: Aww.  Oh well.  Was really curious how the talk that went with your xul slides went.
16:16 autrijus maybe you can convince claes and other NPW folks to take recording
16:17 cjb Have you given the talk yet?  :)
16:17 autrijus yup
16:17 autrijus and hence much less stressed
16:17 autrijus svn/svk/darcs/git/arch BOF going on in 13 mins
16:17 autrijus after that the whole tomorrow is free
16:17 cjb Heh.  Then there's not much point me convincing them now, is there?  :)
16:17 eric256 ?eval qx/date/
16:17 evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
16:17 autrijus ...except _then_ I'd need to finish my haskell talk
16:17 eric256 ?eval my $x = qx/date/;
16:17 evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
16:17 autrijus cjb: no, euroscon happened but I'll redeliver the talk at NPW
16:17 autrijus and again at osdc
16:18 cjb oh!  I see.
16:18 rafl eric256: To cjb's question.
16:18 xerox Haskell talk!  Haskell talk video!
16:18 autrijus xerox: I still have to _write_ the talk...
16:20 * xerox continues singing
16:22 brother Hmmm, registraion for npw is still open
16:23 theorbtwo Hm, could it be that evalbot doesn't support qx because it doesn't have parrot embedding?
16:25 chip good day
16:26 GeJ has quit IRC ("Client exiting")
16:26 eric256 theorbtwo i expected a saftey error of some sort...just reading S02 and thought i'd give it a shot
16:27 autrijus isn't qx about system()?
16:27 wolverian eric256, hmm, wouldn't *%pairs is shape(...) work?
16:27 theorbtwo Oh, right, nevermind...
16:27 eric256 wolverian that would still loose order
16:27 theorbtwo qx certianly won't work, then, though I wouldn't expect it to get that error.
16:27 theorbtwo Oh...
16:27 wolverian eric256, hm, right. *%pairs is Hash::Ordered is shape(...) is getting long.
16:28 theorbtwo ?eval sub qx ($a) {return 5}; qx(date);
16:28 evalbot_7681 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&date"
16:28 eric256 well as a signature its probably okay to be long. just neesd to be doable
16:28 theorbtwo ?eval sub qx ($a) {return 5}; qx("date");
16:28 evalbot_7681 5
16:28 theorbtwo It can't even parse it.
16:28 chip autrijus: is %MY or %OUTER::MY intended to allow key insertion at runtime?
16:28 theorbtwo ?eval this((does ((not ((parse
16:28 evalbot_7681 Error:  unexpected "t" expecting program
16:28 theorbtwo ?eval asdf/foo/
16:28 evalbot_7681 Error: cannot cast from VUndef to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
16:28 theorbtwo Right.
16:28 theorbtwo ?eval 1+
16:28 evalbot_7681 Error:  unexpected end of input expecting end of input or term
16:29 theorbtwo Hm.
16:29 eric256 oddly theorbtwo that gives a different error in the pugs command line than the eval bot
16:30 iblech chip: IIRC, %MY (and thus %OUTER::MY) is frozen at compile-time. Only %OUR can be changed at runtime
16:33 autrijus chip: no and no
16:37 stef__ has joined #perl6
16:38 stef__ has quit IRC (Client Quit)
16:38 Limbic_Region has joined #perl6
16:39 nothingmuch http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Wrong.html
16:39 nothingmuch this article has me thinking
16:40 nothingmuch it's an adhoc type system, based on variable names
16:40 nothingmuch there are two problems with it:
16:40 nothingmuch the user maintains it
16:40 nothingmuch and it's not inferred
16:41 nothingmuch this is really better done with tainting
16:41 nothingmuch compile time tainting, if possible
16:41 nothingmuch does anybody have any additional thoughts?
16:42 chip iblech, autrijus: figured as much.  Parrot has to allow for mutable %MY for some HLLs though (e.g. tcl)
16:43 nothingmuch chip: perl 6 itself has made some interesting decisions in that respect
16:43 nothingmuch for example, sub params are readonly by default
16:43 nothingmuch it seems very balanced
16:43 iblech and only vars declared "is env" are visible via %CALLER::
16:43 iblech sub foo { say $CALLER::abc }; my $abc = 42; foo()  # dies
16:44 chip nothingmuch: indeed, I really don't see the point of mutable %MY ... Tcl should never have done that.  If you need a mutable hash, just declare one.  Duh
16:44 iblech sub foo { say $CALLER::abc }; my $abc is env = 42; foo()  # ok
16:44 nothingmuch eep! since when does 'is env' apply?
16:44 chip 'is env'?  *This* is new.
16:45 iblech IIRC it came with an update to S02, approx. 1 month ago
16:45 nothingmuch that is an odd change
16:46 stef_ has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:46 nothingmuch that really breaks the hack-fu of CALLER::
16:46 iblech ($_, $! and $/ are always implicitly declared "is env")
16:47 chip iblech: Oh wait, you may be missing something
16:47 nothingmuch i always thought it's only purpose was subverting good behavior
16:47 chip iblech: n/m, in p6 $_ does require declaration.  grr
16:48 chip Soudns like Parrot can't implement CALLER any more
16:48 chip at least, not in a generic way that will work for p6
16:48 iblech chip: Hm? $_ is implicitly declared (as a lexical)
16:48 chip iblech: oh, please just ignore that, it was a braino
16:48 elmex has quit IRC ("ok")
16:48 cjb has left "ERC Version 4.0 $Revision: 1.672 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"
16:48 * nothingmuch wonders if you can do CALLER:: by force
16:50 chip nothingmuch: &Perl6::caller_impl (or is that &Perl6.caller_impl?) could walk up through activation frames, find the appropriate %MY, and return the value iff the given variable is found to be 'is env'
16:50 nothingmuch err, i don't mean implementation wise
16:51 nothingmuch i mean as a language feature
16:52 chip I think all Parrot _needs_ to provide is a non-recursive $activation_record.lexical_lookup($name)
16:52 chip "by force"?
16:52 chip %CALLER::MY{'$no_i_really_mean_it'}  could be what you want
16:52 nothingmuch erm, i mean $CALLER::foo; # $foo in caller's lexical scope even if it's not 'is env'
16:52 nothingmuch hmm, that makes sense
16:53 chip so %MY is env
16:53 nothingmuch i hope ;-)
16:53 chip heh.  Actually I think that's an interesting point
16:53 chip What is %MY{'%MY'}?
16:54 chip More to the point, what is exists %MY{'%MY'}?
16:55 PerlJam I would guess false
16:55 nothingmuch how come false?
16:55 iblech I would guess %MY<%MY> eqv %MY
16:55 * eric256 worries as he hears a commercial for doggy camp/daycare....thats just scary
16:55 nothingmuch ?eval my %hash; %hash<hash> = \%hash; \%hash;
16:55 evalbot_7681 {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash" => {("hash"
16:55 nothingmuch see? that almost makes sense
16:55 chip heh.  Garbage collection doesn't scare me, becuase I don't have to write it
16:56 PerlJam nothingmuch: I've never thought of %MY as "living" in the same space as lexicals.
16:56 nothingmuch how come? it's in the lexical scope
16:56 iblech Hm, then maybe %MY should be named %?MY?
16:56 PerlJam iblech: That's what I think
16:56 chip what's with the '?'?
16:56 nothingmuch yet, it should
16:56 chip oh, right.  "Compiler feature"
16:56 nothingmuch chip: special vars are e.g. $*OS and $?SUB - you know where they are by the prefix (global vs lexical)
16:57 PerlJam chip: ? indicates stuff you can get at with static analysis.
16:57 iblech Yep, Larry explicitly said that $? vars don't have to be accessible by $::("...") or %MY:: etc.
16:58 nothingmuch hmm
16:58 chip %?CALLER::?MY<> ... too many ?s
16:59 iblech sorry, dinner &
16:59 PerlJam not sure, but I  think the ? can be omitted.  It's only required for disambiguation.  (but I could be completely off base here)
16:59 PerlJam so %MY == %?MY
16:59 PerlJam or is that %MY eqv %?MY ?
17:00 PerlJam Whatever the right equivalence operator is :)
17:00 eric256 i don't think so PerlJam...that doesn't make sense.  why have the ? at all then?
17:02 PerlJam eric256: it's a similar thing to the ^ in $^vars.  When you say $^foo it actually makes a $foo.
17:02 PerlJam but, like I said, I could be way off base.
17:02 eric256 http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S02.html
17:03 eric256 doesn't mention either of those...might not be up to date, or might be mentioned somewhere else.dunno
17:03 nothingmuch PerlJam: there are several right equivalence operators ;-)
17:03 * nothingmuch wonders if that mess will ever be resolved
17:03 eric256 it mentions them, it doesn't mention droping the ^ or ? ;)
17:04 eric256 nothingmuch: you don't think we need twelve equivalence operators?
17:04 nothingmuch =)
17:04 PerlJam eric256: but I know that $^foo implies $foo to be true however.
17:04 chip WTF ... that says it's MY, not %MY
17:04 chip So the whole conversation is moot
17:05 eric256 PerlJam.....how do you know that?
17:06 PerlJam eric256: because I was puzzled by that implementation decision in pugs until autrijus pointed me at something that larry said.
17:07 eric256 hmmm. then it doesn't seem to have been folded into the docs. ...if you could find that agian it should probably be fixed in the docs../me contiues to search the docs
17:08 chip there's no ? ... you can't have a twigil without a sigil, and MY has no sigil
17:08 PerlJam Given the mutability of the language though, what I knew last week may not be valid this week :)
17:09 eric256 stupid google doesn't like to search on puncuation
17:10 sapper has quit IRC ("Leaving")
17:11 PerlJam chip: see the thread you started on p6l at http://groups.google.com/group/perl.perl6.langu​age/browse_thread/thread/dab58d8e966b0804/98bb4​fa1a3372569?q=%25MY&amp;rnum=3#98bb4fa1a3372569
17:11 PerlJam :-)
17:11 geoffb iblech, fglock__, OK, so Haskell backend has a safemode, and JS backend doesn't need one.  What about P5 backend?
17:12 chip PerlJam: gee whiz, I completely forgot that
17:12 chip Great thing about ADD is you can enjoy the same conversation many times
17:12 PerlJam Seeing how it was 3 years ago, I'm not surprised.
17:13 PerlJam Still it might do for a rehash on p6l just to make sure the current version of perl6 reality meshes properly
17:13 * Limbic_Region wonders if chip was making a general comment about ADD or his personal experience
17:14 chip Limbic_Region: I'm sorry, what were we talking about?
17:14 Limbic_Region you said the great thing about ADD is you can enjoy the same conversation many times
17:14 eric256 lol
17:14 * chip rolls his eyes
17:15 * eric256 watches L~R fall for the olds trick ;)
17:15 chip Importing is a bitch
17:15 * Limbic_Region was being serious
17:15 chip sub import { caller(1).MY{'&foo'} = sub { ... } }
17:17 fglock__ geoffb: if safemode is a runtime thing it should be easy to add
17:18 geoffb I don't know where it happens.  I just note that now that evalbot can call an arbitrary backend, we need to make sure they are as locked down as the haskell one is.  :-)
17:19 eric256 ?eval:p5 system('date');
17:19 evalbot_7681 Can't locate Scriptalicious.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/.. /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/p​erl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Value/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/per​l5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Container/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/p​erl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/per​l5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.7
17:19 eric256 well it doesn't work. ;)
17:20 eric256 i never see fibonaci around...it seems he is compiling pugs constantly too. figured we could just use the auto build on feather...
17:20 fglock__ most file operations are not implemented in p5 yet - so it's fine to add safemode to the TODO
17:20 eric256 ?eval:p5 print "hello";
17:20 evalbot_7681 Can't locate Scriptalicious.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/perl5/PIL-Run/.. /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/p​erl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Value/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/per​l5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-Container/lib /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/p​erl5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel /home/fibonaci/devel/pugs-base/per​l5/PIL-Run/../Perl6-MetaModel/lib /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.8.7
17:20 eric256 lol. nm
17:21 geoffb fglock__, fair enough.  Please do, since you know where it should go.  :-)
17:22 fglock__ ok
17:22 PerlJam Limbic_Region: all of us computer-types suffer from some form of ADD I bet.
17:22 geoffb PerlJam, or OCD
17:22 PerlJam or RSI
17:22 PerlJam or OCR
17:22 PerlJam or ... wait, what were we talking about?
17:22 geoffb heh
17:22 PerlJam (I guess that one won't work twice ;-)
17:23 Limbic_Region PerlJam - that wasn't the question I was asking though
17:23 eric256 or we suffer from laziness ;)
17:23 Limbic_Region I was interested in faulty memory being associated with ADD
17:24 PerlJam Limbic_Region: you actually didn't ask anything.  You wondered if chip were speaking from personal experience or just making a general comment.  I'd be willing to bet both :
17:24 PerlJam er :)
17:24 G2 has joined #perl6
17:25 Limbic_Region *shrug*
17:25 chip LR: In my experience, splitting my attention leads to difficulty with forming long-term memories of experiences
17:25 Limbic_Region chip - ok, that makes a lot of sense
17:25 geoffb Anyone know how to enter arbitrary unicode characters into xchat?
17:26 chip On the other hand, hyperfocus is another part of the experience, and that leads to really good memory.  I still remember for example that "JMP 06CCH" is how you simulate hitting the reset button on a TRS-80 Model I with Level II BASIC
17:27 chip It's not so much ADD as ACD - attention control disorder.  But I digress.  (Ironically)
17:27 Limbic_Region right - I tend to hyperfocus when speaking/writing and can remember things almost verbatim but if you asked me anything else that was going on around me at the time I would be a total blank
17:27 chip heh.  I resemble that remark
17:28 PerlJam memory is a strange thing.
17:29 Limbic_Region sure is - did a highschool science fair experiment on it
17:29 Limbic_Region all the research was real - all the data was cooked
17:29 PerlJam Once, after my parents moved, I tried to remember their new phone number.  I couldn't for the life of me do it no matter what tricks I tried.
17:29 * eric256 can't remember phone numbers but can easily recal ip addresses and the password to his parents dialup account from 10+ years ago ;)
17:29 Limbic_Region Kevin Trudeau's Mega Memory system - I did a statistical analysis on its effectiveness
17:29 PerlJam Then one day several months after I'd given up, I wanted to call them and bam! the number was at the tip of my brain ready to be accessed.
17:30 PerlJam Limbic_Region: how did it fare?
17:30 Limbic_Region people often swap memory and recall interchangeabbly but they are really 2 different things
17:30 Limbic_Region 1st prize local, 1st prize state - opted not to go to nationals
17:30 geoffb Limbic_Region, there's some of that in anyone . . . there was a great experiment where the researches recorded basketball players (IIRC) practicing, and then asked subjects to count how many times the ball was held by players from each team.  Then at the end, they asked if the subject saw anything else of interest -- most said no.  Then the researcher rewound the tape to point out the man in an ape costume walk onto the court, pa
17:30 geoffb use, wave at the camera, and walk off.
17:31 Limbic_Region figured I had pressed my luck far enough
17:31 luqui has joined #perl6
17:31 luqui has quit IRC (Client Quit)
17:32 Limbic_Region In any case, chip's statements make perfect sense after clarification and are in alignment with my own personal experiences
17:34 * PerlJam sends away for eidetic-memory-in-a-bottle and hopes it works
17:36 svnbot6 r7682 | fglock++ | * PIL-Run - emits a warning if the environment var PUGS_SAFEMODE is enabled
17:37 evalbot_7681 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:37 evalbot_7682 has joined #perl6
17:43 mrborisguy has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:44 chip geoffb: That's really funny ... if you could find a link to that I'd be obliged
17:45 geoffb chip, wow, been a while.  I'd just be googling myself.
17:46 Limbic_Region mind hacks chip
17:46 geoffb OK, that came out wrong.  You know what I meant.
17:46 Limbic_Region if you haven't seen the book, you might want to
17:46 chip "Did you google her?" "I'm pretty sure she's too young."
17:46 chip Limbic_Region: thanks
17:46 Limbic_Region http://www.mindhacks.com/
17:46 Limbic_Region I haven't read the whole thing but some of the experiments are definately fun
17:48 Limbic_Region I have a problem reading any book that I can't hyperfocus on
17:48 Limbic_Region but if I do - it is usually consumed in a day or two
17:51 Limbic_Region I am sure everyone by now has seen the email instructing you to lift your right leg and start doing clockwise circles
17:51 Limbic_Region then, while continuing the circles, try and draw the number 6 without having your leg change directions
17:54 geoffb Limbic_Region, hadn't seen that email (thankfully), but it's an interesting experiment
17:54 Limbic_Region I have had moderate success in "beating" it - it involves timing the circles such that they intersect at the top and bottom
18:01 saorge has joined #perl6
18:02 chip coordinated mirror action
18:03 chip like mirror writing.  clever
18:07 SamB has joined #perl6
18:11 szabgab has joined #perl6
18:14 Blicero has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:21 Amnesiac has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:23 geoffb testing: ✓
18:23 geoffb ah, ok, that seemed to work
18:27 autrijus mm?
18:28 geoffb Didn't know how to get unicode into xchat.  Finally just used Gnome's charmap utility.  But first I had to learn how to use *that*.  :-)
18:29 geoffb oh, autrijus, how was the version control BOF?
18:29 autrijus it's going on
18:30 autrijus lots of svn weaknesses being identified out
18:30 autrijus mostly O(n) problems
18:30 autrijus like finding which files in which branches and tags
18:31 obra what other systems were represented?
18:32 geoffb autrijus, Are these things that other systems do better, or just that the talk has been very SVN-centered?
18:33 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
18:35 geoffb Oh, nothingmuch, if you haven't seen it yet, a kind soul pointed me to: http://www.zenetics.com/camel/docs.html.  It's a series of articles about how to write a Forth interpreter, and apparently the resulting Forth is actually in use for various microcontrollers.
18:37 fglock__ autrijus: re lazy lists: can I use "if %ENV{PUGS_LAZY} { use xxx_test_implementation }" in Prelude, in order to not break existing programs?
18:40 G2 has joined #perl6
19:06 ods15_ has joined #perl6
19:24 ods15 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
19:24 Khisanth has quit IRC (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:24 hlen has quit IRC (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:24 Southen_ has quit IRC (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:24 Odin- has quit IRC (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
19:25 migo__ has joined #perl6
19:26 ods15_ is now known as ods15
19:31 szabgab has left
19:31 chip somebody point me to the implementation of 'is export'?
19:35 iblech chip: It's somewhere in src/Pugs/Parser.hs
19:36 * PerlJam can't help but read src/Bugs/Parser.hs for some reason
19:36 iblech fglock__: Problem would be, of course, that changes to $PUGS_LAZY would not be effective, as the Prelude is precompiled...
19:36 smith100 has quit IRC (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
19:36 eric256 looks like line 436 of Parser...
19:37 smith100 has joined #perl6
19:37 PerlJam iblech: he could, of course, provide an alternate Prelude.
19:37 fglock__ iblech: defining "multi infix:<..>" in Prelude didn't work - I must be doing something wrong
19:37 fglock__ PerlJam - I'll try that
19:38 eric256 multi *infix:<..>
19:38 eric256 i think you need the star, but thast just a nagging memory of some fight with prelude.pm i had way back
19:39 spinclad autrijus: "its syntax wrought with utmost care" maybe?
19:40 iblech fglock__: That might be the old problem that exporting happens at parse time (i.e., prelude precompilation time) instead of use() time -- see autrijus's comment in t/pugsbugs/attribute_hash.t
19:41 spinclad (s/its/the/, natuerlich)
19:43 fglock__ I guess I just forgot "is export" - testing
19:44 Odin- has joined #perl6
19:44 spinclad .oO ( a Came'l -- interesting wordstress)
19:46 spinclad autrijus: "_One_ starless night in '94" perhaps?
19:46 hlen has joined #perl6
19:47 Khisanth has joined #perl6
19:48 spinclad .oO ( flared through' mirrors' of Eff-You-net -- scans oddly )
19:51 briantd has joined #perl6
19:53 autrijus spinclad: please commit ahead :)
19:53 autrijus "one" is good
19:54 autrijus I got dconway signed on as pugs committer just so he can fix larry_mariner.txt
19:54 autrijus (we'll be presenting that at osdc)
19:54 spinclad ah... kin i have a token too?
19:54 autrijus sure! mail?
19:54 autrijus <- surprised spinclad is not yet
19:54 spinclad [email@hidden.address]
19:55 autrijus welcome aboard! add yourself to AUTHORS please
19:55 dada has quit IRC ("several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict")
19:55 fglock__ autrijus: I can't find out how to make "multi infix:<..> ( $a, $b ){}" work in Prelude.pm - it works if I use it in a program.
19:55 autrijus fglock__: ok, it works iff we change Eval.hs so that instead of Syn "..", it uses the real infix:<..>
19:55 spinclad thankee kindly good sir -- i shall take most special care of it
19:55 autrijus have fun :)
19:55 * fglock__ will have to actually learn haskell some day
19:56 autrijus fglock__: I hope to turn my talk thursday into something that, when finished, one can get hacking at pugs internals
19:56 fglock__ will look at Eval.hs
19:56 fglock__ autrijus: great!
19:57 brother t/builtins/list/*.t has a couple of :todo<bug> along the lines of ".min should not work on scalars" but min is also tested for a subroutine form.
19:57 autrijus fglock__: hmm, sec
19:58 brother It can be fixed by movin min into List::min in Prims.hs and define sub min(*@elems) { @elems.min } in Prelude.pm
19:58 brother Would that be the right way?
19:58 autrijus ?eval multi *infix:<..> (Int $x, Int $y) { die 3 }; 1..10
19:58 evalbot_7682 Error: 3
19:58 autrijus brother: sure, that worksforme
19:58 autrijus brother: you a committer yet?
19:58 brother yup
19:58 gaal aloha
19:58 autrijus yo gaal
19:58 spinclad brother can you paradigm?
19:59 eric256 why do you need the sub in prelude?
19:59 eric256 to handl the min @x form?
19:59 autrijus actually min @x also works if @x has a method of min
19:59 autrijus it's the
19:59 autrijus min(1,2,3,4,5)
19:59 autrijus form
19:59 autrijus that is the problem
19:59 gaal say, did the rubish juggler stop by since he was first here?
19:59 * eric256 has never heard anyone say "can you paradigm", can you dance, can you sing..sure..but paradigm?
20:00 brother spinclad: parse error?
20:00 autrijus it's like "can you zeitgeist?"
20:00 eric256 ahh autrijus thanks
20:00 gaal can you noun?
20:00 autrijus gaal: mm?
20:00 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); print shift @x, 'hello', @x;
20:00 evalbot_7682 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
20:00 brother gaal: no bu I can verb a noun
20:00 eric256 shoudl that realy work? there is a test for it, but it seems wrong to me.
20:00 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); print shift(@x), 'hello', @x;
20:00 evalbot_7682 1hello2345bool::true
20:00 gaal autrijus: the Juggler fellow who met you in some con! who does ruby, who did the PoPoPo[..] thing
20:01 gaal brother: that was already a verbed noun!
20:01 autrijus anyway, I sent committer bits to illustrious hackers like artur bergman (sky), elizabeth mattijsen, damian, et al
20:01 gaal whoor!
20:01 spinclad brother: it also recalls 'brother, can you spare a dime?'
20:01 gaal s/or/t/
20:01 theorbtwo Brother: You can't verb zeitgeist or paradgim very well.
20:02 autrijus oh schuyler too
20:02 autrijus "If you don't zeitgeist your code, I'll paradigm you from our team!"
20:03 spinclad from an earlier ... 'recession'
20:04 eric256 any thoughts on the shift question? ;)
20:05 theorbtwo schuyler?  Towns in nebraska and virgina, and three notable people?
20:07 autrijus theorbtwo: http://search.cpan.org/~sderle/
20:07 gaal wow, liz is prolific
20:09 autrijus and she is pleasantly surprised by the idea of STM
20:09 autrijus which happily renders most of her modules obsolete (in a good way)
20:09 gaal that happened to me once!
20:09 gaal i blame yuval for that :) (Class::Accessor::Ref)
20:09 theorbtwo Oh, is she still active outside the monistary?
20:09 theorbtwo (Sniffle.)
20:10 gaal (in a good way)
20:11 gaal she's a memcached user, cool :)
20:12 Southen has joined #perl6
20:16 HelloWorld82 has joined #perl6
20:22 Juerd Who here is going to euroscon (I'm not)?
20:24 iblech has quit IRC ("sleep")
20:32 HelloWorld82 has left
20:36 elmex has joined #perl6
20:42 dolmen has joined #perl6
20:44 obra liz of forks fame, autrijus?
20:47 nothingmuch gaal: why am I to blame for C::A::R?
20:47 Juerd obra: Assuming there is no other liz with that name, it must be
20:48 autrijus obra: aye
20:48 obra autrijus: neat
20:48 obra . o  O { Can we get STM in perl5? }
20:48 * obra wants perl5 to be perl6 before perl6 is
20:48 autrijus yeah
20:48 autrijus it's just internal hacking is prone to break things.
20:49 autrijus as all porters are painfully aware.
20:49 autrijus so, yes, possible, but I doubt anyone is going to have the huge tuits to do it.
20:49 geoffb obra, I'm betting some of ponie's massive internals refactoring might help that
20:49 Juerd http://search.cpan.org/~elizabeth/  # If even only a quarter of it would ever reach Perl 6, it would be great.
20:49 * obra bites his tongue
20:49 geoffb obra, what?  Do you work on ponie?
20:50 xerox autrijus: any news from the xul side?
20:50 obra <- junior parrot/pge/etc project manager
20:50 geoffb obra, heh
20:51 geoffb Juerd, wow, that is a pretty impressive list
20:51 Juerd By the way, I asked for a prototype t-shirt and hope to have it by tomorrow or thursday
20:51 Juerd ("s:g/5/6/;")
20:52 autrijus yeah, liz mentioned she'd like to port some of them to perl6 -- but I mentioned she really want to talk with chip/leo -- but she doesn't seem to think parrot's threading stuff is healthy now -- so maybe the haskell runcore for now? not sure
20:59 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
21:01 iblechbot has quit IRC (No route to host)
21:05 gaal nothingmuch: you're to blame for my realizing it's no longer needed
21:05 * nothingmuch forgot how
21:05 gaal fields
21:05 gaal though i gotta admit, i never use 'em in perl 5 :)
21:12 cognominal_ BooK is speaking of porting Acme::Meta::Syntactic to Perl6!
21:13 kolibrie has quit IRC ("leaving")
21:17 Blicero has joined #perl6
21:17 alinbsp has joined #perl6
21:18 eric256_ has joined #perl6
21:22 migo__ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:24 Qiang has quit IRC ("home")
21:25 eric256_ has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
21:26 r0nny_ is now known as r0nny
21:28 brother ?eval sub foo (*@list) { say "ping" } ; 42.foo
21:28 evalbot_7682 ping bool::true
21:35 eric256 has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
21:42 justatheory has joined #perl6
21:51 stevan autrijus: I am commiting the explicit eigenclass/class methods are inheritable fix right now
21:52 autrijus ooooh.
21:52 stevan it for sure still needs some refactoring
21:52 stevan its about a 400% slowdown :)
21:52 stevan class creation is much more expenisive
21:53 autrijus mmmhm
21:53 autrijus linear slowdown doesn't sound so bad :)
21:53 stevan but this is the non-optimal version
21:53 stevan this is the "it finally works without endless recursion" version :)
21:54 stevan it has one very ugly "magic number" in it too
21:54 brother I can't find any excuse for foo being used as a method in that eval
21:55 autrijus brother: if meth lookup fails it tries to revert into bindings in scope.
21:55 autrijus it's one of the less-specced corners.
21:55 stevan autrijus: I will clean this up a little more tomorrow, hopefully it will help the speed a bit
21:56 xerox autrijus: could you repaste the pugs slides url?
21:56 stevan but time for dinner now :) &
21:57 evalbot_7682 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | * class methods are now inheritable
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ |     - altered all tests to account for this
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | NOTE: this has caused approx a 400% slow-*down*, this is because
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | every class now has explicit eigenclasses, and that is expensive.
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | This should be though of as the "make it work" phase, the "make it right"
21:57 chip autrijus: I wonder if you'd be willing to recreate your SVK::Commands::List hack from Herrnbaumgarten
21:57 svnbot6 r7683 | stevan++ | and "make it fast" phases are still TODO :)
21:57 geoffb autrijus, would you mind journaling the info from the SCM BOF at some point
21:57 evalbot_7683 has joined #perl6
21:57 * geoffb is interested in that sort of thing
21:57 chip autrijus: a version of 'svk list' that prints relative path of local file rather than an indented basename
21:59 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
22:01 autrijus chip: I sent patch to clk some time ago, not sure
22:02 autrijus geoffb: you may better ask clkao as I joined them at the final 20 mins
22:02 autrijus so maybe they talked about a lot of other things first
22:02 autrijus stevan: cool! I'll check it out
22:02 autrijus xerox: see my journal.
22:02 autrijus http://blog.pugscode.org/
22:02 autrijus ok, I gotta sleep.
22:02 autrijus another long day ahead tomorrow :)
22:02 * autrijus waves &
22:03 geoffb clkao: same question I just sent to autrijus, namely, can you (or does someone) have notes on what came up in the SCM BOF?  Inquiring minds want to know.
22:03 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
22:11 r0nny has quit IRC ("sleep")
22:15 Eimi has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:15 clkao geoffb: ya, kfogel promised to take notes
22:16 geoffb clkao, thanks.
22:16 geoffb Where would his notes be?  (no ~kfogel on use.perl.org)
22:16 Juerd_ has joined #perl6
22:17 gaal the "arrow length" axis makes me giggle every time i see it
22:17 Shillo has joined #perl6
22:17 Shillo Woof.
22:17 gaal autr*: s/Parrotfolks/Parrotfolk/
22:17 justatheory meow
22:17 Shillo :)
22:18 gaal (in pugs slides) (mm, too late actually, now)
22:18 Juerd_ Does it make sense to have @array.chars, @array.graphs, etc?
22:18 Juerd_ Doesn't that feel wrong without @array.uc, @array.int, @array.sprintf, etc?
22:18 Juerd_ Shouldn't we explicitly mention we want a sum of individual values, rather than having these methods?
22:18 gaal Juerd_: what do they do? ([~] @array).chars?
22:19 Juerd_ Yes
22:19 Juerd_ Though sum(@array>>.chars) is probably more efficient
22:19 Juerd_ It makes no sense to me to have these methods on arrays
22:19 geoffb clkao (sorry forgot to use your nick earlier), where would I look for kfogel's notes?
22:19 Juerd_ We have hypers to make it easy, and I don't think anyone will be using this more than a few times.
22:20 clkao geoffb: i don't know, but i will let you know once it's available
22:20 gaal wait didn't the .chars-returns-list proposal go in?
22:20 geoffb clkao, thanks.
22:20 Juerd_ gaal: No... Larry's awfully quiet about that... Or I missed it.
22:20 Juerd_ gaal: Still, I think the point is valid regardless of chars semantics in list context
22:21 Shillo Juerd_: Don't you need something like that for print @array?
22:21 Juerd_ Shillo: Why?
22:21 gaal Yes, I see they are orthogonal.
22:21 Juerd_ Shillo: There's always sum(@array>>.chars) if you NEED the data. That is clear: what is wanted is explicitly written
22:21 Shillo Hmm... Good question. Why did I say that.
22:21 dduncan has joined #perl6
22:21 Juerd_ @array.chars only raises questions
22:22 Shillo I know I use flatten to string a lot in LISP.
22:22 Juerd_ Is it a sum? A list? A histogram?
22:22 Juerd_ An average, perhaps? Unlikely, but possible.
22:22 Shillo (meaning, flatten list of lists of lists... into string)
22:22 Juerd_ Characters as a property of an array makes no sense, so the answer isn't safely guessable.
22:22 dduncan hello
22:23 Juerd_ Shillo: That's unrelated
22:23 eric256 has joined #perl6
22:23 Juerd_ Shillo: If you want to flatten, and then count, you can still do @array.concat.chars
22:23 Shillo Mostly because it allows me to do sloppy functional programming - I do bunch of maps, conses, lists etc, then just pancake everything on output. Well, it's a useful thing for array to be able to do
22:23 Shillo Esp. if you implement it correctly.
22:23 Juerd_ Shillo: As gaal's ([~] @array).chars, which is semantically equal, it's a bit inefficient in many cases :)
22:24 dduncan question: is http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html the most up to date version of the synopsis, or is there a more up to date versions elsewhere?
22:24 Shillo That is, determine the size, prealloc, fill with chars.
22:24 Juerd_ Shillo: @array.chars can never be lvalue for pre-allocation.
22:24 Juerd_ It can't know how to distribute.
22:24 Juerd_ And some of its elements may not even be strings (another reason for not having the method at all)
22:24 Shillo Uh, why are you talking about lvalue?
22:25 dduncan that one says last updated december 2004 for synopsis 12, for example
22:25 Juerd_ Pre-allocation in Perl is usually done by assigning to an lvalue that usually returns a count.
22:25 Shillo I'd think array.chars would be implemented as low as necessary to make it fast.
22:25 Shillo Er, at as low a level as necessary.
22:25 gaal d'oh, the fib example in the pugs talk is wrong
22:26 Juerd_ Shillo: It can't be much lower than summing the individual .chars values
22:26 Juerd_ Shillo: As that will be required.
22:27 Juerd has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
22:27 Shillo So the implementation would be @tmp = @array>>.chars; $str = " " x [+] @tmp>>.count; copy the individual strings
22:28 Shillo I assume strings are immutable, so this wouldn't really work - which is why lower level implementation (i.e. parrot level) would be necessary.
22:29 Shillo But concatenate-array-quickly -is- useful.
22:29 Shillo Hmm... reading above, did you mean that by @array.concat?
22:30 Juerd_ Yes.
22:30 Juerd_ @array.chars does not concatenate. It returns the sum of the numbers of characters in all the elements.
22:31 * Shillo conveniently explains his thickness by sleep deprivation. :)
22:31 Juerd_ What does weight have to do with this?
22:31 Shillo Hmm?
22:32 Juerd_ thickness?
22:32 Shillo Oh, thick is another word for stupid. Took me a bit to catch on.
22:32 Juerd_ Oh.
22:32 Shillo I get slow when I don't sleep. :)
22:33 Juerd_ Does this imply that fat people are perceived as stupid, where you live?
22:33 * Shillo now whines. You killed my joke.
22:33 Shillo Er, no.
22:33 Shillo That's thick-headed.
22:33 hexmode has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:33 Shillo Purely English idiom.
22:33 Juerd_ Even if the rest of the body is fat too?
22:33 Shillo Unrelated to body fat.
22:33 Juerd_ English is SO hard to grok.
22:33 Shillo Refers to skull... er, thickness. :)
22:34 Shillo Yer telling me. It's not my first language, either.
22:34 Juerd_ What is yours?
22:34 Shillo Croatian.
22:35 Juerd_ I know absolutely nothing about croatian :)
22:35 Juerd_ Not even what script it uses
22:35 Shillo And a friend of mine was telling me how difficult was for him to learn... umm, Netherlandish? :)
22:35 Juerd_ Dutch
22:35 Juerd_ Nederlands.
22:35 Shillo Right.
22:35 Shillo Dutch. I know that. Usually. When I've slept. And stuff.
22:35 Shillo Croatian... Er, ISO-8859-2. That's Latin, with Eastern Europian extensions.
22:35 Juerd_ German (Deutsch, not Dutch) for Dutch is Niederlandisch
22:36 justathe1ry has joined #perl6
22:36 Shillo No, I know it's called Dutch in English. Just had a brain-fart. :)
22:36 justatheory has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:36 Juerd_ Okay :)
22:36 geoffb Juerd_, thick-headed is I think directly related to "Can't you get that through your think skull?!?", as Shillo pointed out
22:36 Shillo And only speak a few words of German. I understand a lot more, mostly from all the trips to Austria.
22:37 geoffb er, thick skull, bah
22:37 Juerd_ geoffb: A thick skull could indicate extra brain mass, though :)
22:37 Shillo :)
22:37 Shillo Juerd_: Actually, it kinda refers to not enough space for the actual brain. :)
22:37 geoffb Juerd_, in the same overall displacement, thicker skull == less room for brain.  :-)
22:37 Juerd_ Why would less brain require more protection? :)
22:38 * Juerd_ concludes that both English AND biology make no sense.
22:38 * Shillo groans and gives up. :)
22:38 geoffb cro-magnons -- thicker fore-bones, less forebrain.
22:38 Shillo Mind ya, I've been trying to learn Japanese for 5 years now. Keyword being -trying-. Now /that's/ a weird language.
22:38 coral Juerd: too much room and it sloshes around
22:38 Juerd_ Aspie meets idioms... Always interesting.
22:39 coral bangs up against the sides and all
22:39 Juerd_ coral: Heh
22:39 Juerd_ I think I have that. I can feel my brain mass moving when I shake my head :)
22:39 Shillo Although, some Croatian idioms tend to weird out foreigners, too.
22:40 Juerd_ Or at least it feels like what I think moving brain mass would feel like.
22:40 * Shillo edges away from Juerd slowly.
22:40 Juerd_ Shillo: Can you give funny examples of croation idioms?
22:40 Shillo Hmm... Lemme think. :)
22:41 Shillo Most foreigners have really -bad- problem with... uh... I think the English name for those is incomplete verbs.
22:42 Shillo Er, complete verbs.
22:43 Shillo In Croatian, all verbs come in two forms. One is incomplete, it denotes an action that goes on, but doesn't refer to its termination. The complete verbs denote actions that finished in some way.
22:43 Shillo Now complete verbs are formed by prefixing the verb with preposition. Problem is, this changes the meaning of the verb.
22:43 Shillo English has something similar. Hold vs behold vs withhold.
22:44 Shillo In Croatian, it's completely pervasive, and you're actually allowed to use non-dictionary combinations - most people will intuitively understand what you meant.
22:45 Limbic_Region_ has joined #perl6
22:45 Shillo The resulting combinations tend to be very funny, but in ways I can't even begin to translate. :)
22:45 eric256 isn't german sort of like that too?
22:46 eric256 big-red-bar-on-the-corner type words ;)
22:46 Shillo No, German abuses compound words instead. :)
22:46 Shillo This is modified words. Not quite the same thing.
22:46 Shillo Oh, did I mention 42 adjective forms (7 cases, 3 genders, 2 numbers)?
22:47 Shillo And you can't even just avoid adjectives, because past tense is formed by turning verb into one? :)
22:48 Shillo One consequence is that unlike in English, you can't talk at any length without referring to your own gender, and it's not allowed to be neuter. That kinda sucks if you're an SF writer.
22:49 juerd has joined #perl6
22:49 juerd My home line is out
22:49 juerd Can someone please nopaste me what I've missed?
22:49 juerd (I'm on good old reliable radio waves now)
22:50 juerd (Through feather, because in practice, reliable it is not)
22:50 Shillo juerd: What kind? I use GPRS as my primary net link :) )
22:50 juerd edge
22:50 misc juerd: since when ?
22:51 eric256 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:51 juerd misc: Since I typed something like "My connection is dead again :(", but I reckon that's something you never saw
22:51 pasteling "wolverian" at 80.221.10.245 pasted "what juerd missed" (21 lines, 1.9K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13775
22:51 juerd misc: More useful will probably be the point where I asked shillo to give some funny examples
22:51 juerd Thank you, wolverian
22:51 wolverian you're welcome
22:51 eric256 has joined #perl6
22:51 Shillo juerd: And I went through some weird bits of Croatian grammar instead. I'm too down to think of good funny examples right now. :)
22:52 misc groumph, i was just scping to a website :/
22:53 juerd Are these 7 cases like the cases in other languages?
22:53 Juerd__ has joined #perl6
22:53 Shillo Yes. Like 4 cases in German.
22:54 eric256 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:54 Shillo Only, Croatian has a lot more declinations, and those it has are a lot less regular.
22:54 juerd (nom, voc, gen, dat, acc, abl)
22:54 Shillo nom, gen, dat, acu, voc, loc, instr
22:54 Shillo Er, acu=acc
22:54 juerd What are loc and instr?
22:54 eric256 has joined #perl6
22:54 Shillo So no ablative, but it has locative and instrumental.
22:54 eric256 has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:55 Juerd_ has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
22:55 juerd instrumental: is that like "by train"?
22:55 juerd "with a screw driver"?
22:55 Shillo Yep.
22:55 juerd And is locative to do with location?
22:56 Shillo Also 'going out with my girlfriend' - and yes, this goes under silly idioms.
22:56 Shillo Yep.
22:56 juerd This sounds doable :)
22:56 Shillo Problem is that adjectives have to match their nouns on gender.
22:56 juerd Though prepositions are easier to learn, because they are always more consistent (no change per declination)
22:56 Shillo So you have a small combinatorial explosion with adjectives.
22:57 juerd I myself prefer Esperanto. :)
22:57 Shillo Well, I've heard some horror stories about Dutch, too. :)
22:57 chip jeepers, I'm glad my ancestors decided to head for the New World
22:58 juerd It has nominative, accusative, prepositions and adverbs :)
22:58 Shillo Mostly to do with r, g, and throaty g appearing next to each other in some words. :)
22:58 Limbic_Region_ has quit IRC ("leafChat IRC client: http://www.leafdigital.com/Software/leafChat/")
22:58 juerd What's "throaty g"? Q)
22:58 juerd Is that our standard g?
22:58 juerd s.Q.:.
22:58 Shillo No idea. :)
22:58 Shillo That's second hand.
22:59 Shillo Er, second hand info.
22:59 juerd At least we have stable grammar
22:59 juerd *cough* Not quite
22:59 Shillo Yeah.
22:59 Shillo I went through a grammar book on Croatian and counted about 30 declinations, once it listed all the unusual and exceptional types.
22:59 juerd Dutch has very weird and indiscribable word order
23:00 Shillo Croatian has free word order (mostly)
23:00 juerd in het huis: in the hous
23:00 juerd het huis in: into the house
23:00 juerd s/hous$/house/
23:00 juerd And lots of ambiguity
23:01 Shillo In Croatian. it's 'u kuchi' and 'u kuchu' (ch is printed using C with ' on top of it)
23:01 justathe1ry has quit IRC ()
23:01 Shillo locative vs accusative
23:02 juerd accusative for movement, I assume?
23:02 juerd That's quite common among languages
23:03 Shillo But problem is that in Croatian, 'Jedem crvenu jabuku', 'Crvenu jabuku jedem' and 'Jedem jabuku crvenu' are all allowed and mean the same thing (I'm eating a red apple)
23:03 juerd I wish Dutch still had cases.
23:03 Shillo Actually for near objects.
23:03 Shillo Er, direct objects.
23:03 juerd Yes, that's the main function of any accusative
23:03 juerd But combined with a location, it indicates movement, right?
23:04 juerd (into)
23:04 Shillo You can also use dative instead of accusative, with without 'u'.
23:04 Shillo Er, but without
23:04 Shillo Yep.
23:04 Shillo So you can say 'Idem u kuchu' and 'Idem kuchi', both mean 'I'm going into the house'
23:04 Shillo The first stresses the actual entering, while the other stresses movement.
23:05 juerd Esperanto has the forms 'mi iras en domon' and 'mi iras domen'
23:05 Shillo If you want to say 'I'm going home', it'd always be 'Idem kuchi'
23:05 juerd "en domon" is literally: into the house. Here, domon is accusative of domo
23:06 juerd "domen" on the other hand is "dome", the adverb form  of domo, also modified to look like an accusative *(n)
23:06 Shillo And you can also say 'Kuchi idem' when you want to say that you're actually going home and not somewhere else.
23:06 Shillo (free word order rules :) )
23:07 juerd "domen" would be: to the place that is at home
23:07 juerd s/at home/the house/
23:07 juerd at home is hejme,, not dome
23:07 Shillo 'At home' is 'doma' in Croatian slang.
23:07 juerd Shillo: The first word gets implicit stress?
23:07 Shillo And yes, 'Idem doma' is accepted dialectism.
23:08 Shillo Yep.
23:08 juerd You probably don't find Yoda funny, if you're used to free word order :)
23:08 Shillo Well, it's not /quite/ free.
23:08 Shillo Some combinations are more weird than others.
23:09 juerd (if used to free word order, you are, then find Yoda funny, you probably do not)
23:09 Shillo Japanese word order (Which is what Yoda is using) is right out. :)
23:09 Shillo :)
23:09 Shillo For example, nouns commonly come after the adjectives. Switch is archaic, poetic, or for special stress.
23:10 juerd I remember a fortune that goes like: If so strong in Yoda, the force is, then why construct proper sentences, he cannot?
23:10 Shillo Heee!
23:10 juerd Or something like it
23:11 juerd 01:09 < Shillo> For example, nouns commonly come after the adjectives. Switch is archaic, poetic, or for special stress.
23:11 Shillo BTW, I heard they actually translated English to Japanese, then back (but with preserving the word order). What I know of Japanese tends to corroborate this.
23:11 juerd The same in Esperanto
23:11 Shillo (for Yoda)
23:11 juerd In Dutch, however, nouns have to be after their adjectives
23:11 Shillo Well, in English, too.
23:13 Shillo The weirdest word order I've ever seen is in Gaelic, though.
23:13 juerd Shillo: Too consistenty structured, the sentences are, so hard to believe that mangled through Japanese, the sentences are, it is for me
23:13 Shillo Nouns are always -before- the adjectives, and the sentence starts with a verb.
23:13 juerd But it could be that Japanese has such consitency. I don't know.
23:13 Shillo Japanese is almost perfectly consistent, yep.
23:13 juerd Shillo: That must read like RPN :)
23:14 Shillo And yes, it's almost purely RPN. Japanese, that is. Irish is its mirror image. :)
23:15 Shillo Japanese word order is   Adverbs Topic Subject Objects (optionally more Adverbs) Predicate
23:15 Shillo Topic doesn't have to match subject, for extra fun. :)
23:16 Shillo English is  Adverbs Subject Predicate Direct object Other objects More adverbs.
23:16 juerd That seems hard
23:16 juerd In English, adverbs can come almost everywhere :)
23:16 Shillo Well, one aspect of it sucks even for native speakers.
23:16 wolverian Finnish is random.
23:16 juerd wolverian: I KNEW IT!
23:16 wolverian ;)
23:17 Shillo In Japanese, kanji pronounciation can depend on the context. If that context is given by the predicate, and the kanji happens to be topic, you have to look at the end of the sentence to know how to pronounce the beginning.
23:17 Shillo :)
23:17 juerd So finnish people too have no idea what other finnish say?
23:18 wolverian not quite that random. :)
23:18 juerd Shillo: Strict word order, but still not optimized for single pass parsing
23:18 juerd Shillo: Who the hell designed that? :)
23:18 Shillo :)
23:18 wolverian in fact, it's not random at all (it's a lot more structured than English, for an example), but word order is relatively free. that's nothing special, though.
23:18 Shillo It kinda grew.
23:18 juerd It's like positional arguments that do require names.
23:19 Shillo You don't want to know what Japanese do with imported words (and it's a good bet that if something has been invented after 1800, Japanese will use the English name for it)
23:19 Shillo wolverian: Yep, like Croatian.
23:19 Shillo wolverian: Guess it goes with having a lot of cases.
23:19 wolverian Shillo, yeah, seems like so. do the rarer word orders seem more poetic in Croatian?
23:19 Shillo Yep
23:19 juerd cases in general make a language much less dependent on word order.
23:19 wolverian same here.
23:20 Shillo I read a bit on Finnish grammar. Only 2 declinations. Wusses. ;)
23:20 geoffb Shillo, OK, I'll bite, what *does* Japanese do with imported words?
23:20 juerd Ahh... Yoda is a poet!
23:20 juerd geoffb: (Thanks)
23:20 Shillo geoffb: First, they spell them with their syllably.
23:21 Shillo geoffb: Then if they end up with more than 3 syllables, they chop of the rest.
23:21 geoffb woah
23:21 Shillo geoffb: Or rather, drop a few syllables at random.
23:21 geoffb ouch
23:21 Shillo Japanese only has 47 (I think) valid syllables, so the words can be unrecognisable even after the first stem.
23:21 Shillo Er, step
23:22 juerd A friend witnessed this when he was in Japan
23:22 geoffb Shillo, nod
23:22 Shillo And Japanese native speaker will expect you to recognise the English words without explanation.
23:22 wolverian Shillo, I'm sorry, what's a declination? I've forgotten all my language skills in the two years between high school and university :)
23:22 juerd His Japanese friend needed to translate the real English into Japanese English before the local population understood.
23:22 Shillo Words like shatsu, suripa, terebi.
23:23 geoffb Shillo, which are?  I've got guesses, but .  ..
23:23 juerd It now occurs to me that  know what a declination is, but wolud have a hard time explaining it.
23:23 Shillo wolverian: Set of case suffixes. Noun belongs to one declination, if you know which, you know all its cases. In Finnish, there are only 2, one for clear wovels, the other for umlauts.
23:23 Shillo geoffb: Shirt, slippers, television.
23:23 juerd Shillo: LOL
23:23 geoffb Shillo, OK, I was completely wrong
23:24 wolverian Shillo, ah, right. yes.
23:24 wolverian Shillo, logical++
23:24 wolverian Swedish has four (or five?) declinations. horrible to learn even that few.
23:24 juerd Shillo: So the first step is to pronounce the r as l?
23:24 juerd When trying to understand thes ewords?
23:25 Shillo doraiba is also funny.
23:25 juerd Latin has 3, IIRC
23:25 Shillo Screwdriver.
23:25 Shillo Croatian has... bloody LOTS.
23:25 juerd Shillo: Hard to order, I guess :)
23:25 Shillo 3 genders, and each comes with several declinations.
23:26 juerd Shillo: It's time for a language revolution.
23:26 juerd You need a dictator obsessed with efficiency.
23:26 wolverian Shillo, does Croation have future tense?
23:26 Shillo wolverian: Well, Finnish has 16 cases. Kinda tall vs wide division. :)
23:26 wolverian erm, Croatian
23:27 wolverian Shillo, right. :)
23:27 Shillo wolverian: Yeah. Two of them.
23:27 juerd Shillo: tentative and decided? :)
23:27 Shillo juerd: You can tell Esperanto was designed by a Slavic, eh? ;)
23:27 wolverian Shillo, two? why?
23:28 Shillo wolverian: What Juerd said.
23:28 wolverian ah, okay.
23:28 Shillo 4 past tenses, 2 archaic.
23:28 Shillo Except that these 2 archaic are becoming mainstream thanks to SMS messages. They're short. :)
23:28 wolverian Finnish has tentative and decided but no future tense. it just relies on context telicity.
23:29 wolverian erm, contact _and_ telicity
23:29 wolverian ERM
23:29 wolverian sorry but: asdhakjsdhakjsdhajkdasd
23:29 wolverian time to sleep.
23:29 Shillo Well, in Croatian they're both future tenses.
23:29 juerd Shillo: In some respects, yes
23:29 Shillo You can also cheat and use present instead of the future tense (like in most other languages I know)
23:30 juerd Shillo: But it's greekish in the word stem, and said to be japaneseish in its isolation
23:30 Shillo juerd: Er, I meant, Crotian has 4 past tenses, 2 of which were, till recently, archaic. :)
23:31 juerd 4 past tenses...
23:32 Shillo Well, yeah, those 2 are redundant. :)
23:32 juerd Well, there are always many ways to describe things past
23:32 juerd (did, have done, have been doing, was doing, ...)
23:32 Shillo Also, 2 verbal adjectives and 2 verbal adverbs.
23:33 Shillo And yes, verbal adjectives suffer from cases. Like all other adjectives :)
23:33 juerd Verbal adjectives... It sounds so wrong.
23:33 Shillo Active and passive.
23:33 Shillo Active is used for past tense.
23:33 Shillo And passive is... passive.
23:34 juerd The latter makes sense. :)
23:34 Shillo If somebody was subjected to an action, you just attach the action as an adjective.
23:34 Shillo Simoultaneity in past and present is expressed with past and present verbal adverbs.
23:34 Shillo Er, simultaneity.
23:34 juerd Like: the robbed man?
23:34 Shillo Yep.
23:35 juerd Would that be considered a correct *sentence*, were it croatian?
23:35 Shillo Yes.
23:35 juerd Weird :)
23:35 Shillo Er, full sentence? No.
23:36 Shillo You'd have to say 'The man is robbed'
23:36 juerd Oh, okay
23:36 juerd Still some sanity.
23:36 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:36 juerd I'm going to bed
23:37 Shillo Chovjek (man) je opljachkan. Zhena (woman) je opljachkana. Dijete (child, neuter gender) je opljachkano.
23:37 juerd Thanks for the conversation. I always like to learn superficial language trivia :)
23:37 Shillo Not as much sanity as you'd like. :)
23:37 juerd Children are considered gender neutral? :)
23:37 Shillo Yep.
23:37 juerd That must be interesting in school.
23:37 Shillo Unless you specify (boy or girl)
23:37 juerd Good night :)
23:38 Shillo Nah, boys and girls get the proper grammar treatment. :)
23:38 Shillo Laters!
23:38 Shillo Gotta go to sleep soon myself.
23:38 Shillo Same timezone.
23:38 juerd (Hm. Same applies to Dutch and German too: het kind, das Kind, both neuter)
23:38 juerd afk
23:38 Shillo :)
23:38 Shillo Night, all!
23:39 juerd Dijete
23:39 juerd Is that pronounced much like deity? ;)
23:39 Shillo Nope.
23:39 juerd afk now :)
23:39 Shillo :)
23:39 Shillo has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:45 svnbot6 r7684 | Darren_Duncan++ | /ext/Rosetta-Incubator : officially converted all lib/*/L/en.pm files and lib/Rosetta/Validator.pm to modules; they are not supposed to be classes
23:51 larsen has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:58 Blicero has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)

| Channels | #perl6 index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo | Niecza | Specs