Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:05 ajs_home So, did anyone see a message about S29 from me on p6l today, or is my MTA being flakey?
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01:52 svnbot6 r7685 | spinclad++ | (First commit!)
01:52 svnbot6 r7685 | spinclad++ | * Suggested tweaks for larry_mariner.txt; please review.
01:52 svnbot6 r7685 | spinclad++ | * AUTHORS.+=(self)
01:52 svnbot6 r7686 | spinclad++ | larry_mariner.txt: alternate suggestion.
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07:46 luqui ha'dy nothingmuch
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07:47 autrijus yo.
07:47 Aankhen`` Mawnin'.
07:48 luqui autrijus, how do you suggest I go about fixing lazy {} ?
07:49 autrijus luqui: mmm, context?
07:49 luqui my $c = 0; my $x = lazy { $c++; }  say $x;   say $c;  # 3
07:50 luqui i.e., the block gets executed 3 times
07:51 autrijus you need to make the thunk mark itself as used after first eval.
07:51 luqui presumably throwing away the closure reference, replacing it with the value
07:52 luqui but, er, I don't understand how I would do that within Eval?
07:52 autrijus you can do that by creating a (TVar (Maybe Val))
07:52 autrijus that holds the evaluated thing
07:53 luqui how about (Either Thunk Val)  -- for the appropriate value of Thunk
07:53 luqui TVar $ ~
07:53 autrijus well, you need to hide some code into the thunk anyway
07:53 autrijus so might as well use Maybe
07:53 autrijus but Either would work too
07:53 luqui huh?
07:53 autrijus improvise :)
07:54 autrijus op1 "lazy" = \v -> do
07:54 luqui hide some code into the thunk?
07:54 autrijus    sub <- fromVal v
07:54 autrijus    res <- liftSTM $ newTVar Nothing
07:55 autrijus    let thunk = ... probe res, etc ...
07:55 autrijus    return . VRef . thunkRef $ MkThunk thunk
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07:55 autrijus the "probe" part would do a liftSTM readTVar, and some maybeM stuff, and liftSTM writeTVar on first eval
07:55 luqui oh, it's very important that the thunk's code be GC'd if possible
07:56 luqui oh wait, I'm screwed anyway in that area
07:57 autrijus it will be GCed if possible, I assure you.
07:57 autrijus the exp, once non reachable, will be claimed
07:57 * autrijus has complete trust in GHC-RTS's GC
07:57 luqui because, in pugs currently:  my $closure = { my $x;  my $y;  -> { $x } };  # $y is not freed here, correct?
07:57 luqui how is it no longer reachable?
07:58 luqui that is, what happens that gets rid of it
07:58 autrijus if there is nothing in the current env that lets you reach ti
07:58 autrijus then it's gone
07:59 luqui hm.
07:59 luqui how about the $closure example?
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08:01 * luqui thinks he groks your code above now
08:06 autrijus :)
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08:06 autrijus the closure example, once $closure is out of reach from envLexical
08:06 autrijus and envOuter envLexical (recursively)
08:06 autrijus it's not reachable
08:06 luqui I'm asking about $y
08:07 luqui which $closure is not referring to, but it is referring to the pad that $y is in
08:07 luqui in Perl 5 in this case, $y would be freed immediately upon exiting that block
08:07 luqui (and L::AG takes advantage of that fact)
08:08 autrijus oh $y
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08:08 autrijus p5 closes over only directly referenced stuff
08:09 autrijus my $x = sub { my $z = 3; sub { eval '$z' } };
08:09 autrijus which is why this doesn't work in p5
08:09 luqui Oh, it doesn't?
08:10 * luqui checks
08:10 autrijus ?eval  my $x = sub { my $z = 3; sub { eval '$z' } }; $x()()
08:10 autrijus mm bot gone. this works in pugs
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08:10 luqui interesting
08:11 luqui heh, ask and ye shall receive
08:11 luqui I guess with CALLER:: you can't really help but close over the whole pad
08:11 luqui except in really really trivial cases
08:11 luqui darn.
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08:11 autrijus note that parrot does the same.
08:12 autrijus (close over the whole pad)
08:12 * luqui needs a new method to GC intermediate structures in L::AG
08:12 luqui and in that case I guess I don't really care about lazy {}.  I'll try to fix it anyway
08:13 autrijus please do :)
08:13 luqui ?eval 42
08:13 evalbot_7686 42
08:13 autrijus luqui++
08:13 autrijus ?eval my $x = sub { my $z = 3; sub { eval '$z' } }; $x()()
08:13 evalbot_7686 \3
08:13 autrijus there's already a test in t/var/lazy.t
08:13 * luqui saw that
08:14 luqui ?eval so
08:14 evalbot_7686 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&so"
08:15 luqui op0 "so"  = const (return $ VBool True)  -- ??
08:16 integral luqui: so doesn't seem to appear in the big table
08:17 luqui and the string "so" only occurs on that one line
08:17 integral I hate Prim.hs
08:18 autrijus <aol/>
08:18 autrijus luqui: just kill that line
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08:35 luqui ?eval class Foo { submethod DESTROY { say "Bye" } }   Foo.new;  say "done"
08:35 evalbot_7686 done bool::true
08:35 luqui ?eval class Foo { submethod DESTROY { say "Bye" } }   say Foo.new;  say "done"
08:36 evalbot_7686 <obj:Foo> done bool::true
08:38 luqui ?eval class Foo { submethod DESTROY { say "Bye" } }   my $f = Foo.new; say $f;  say "done"
08:38 evalbot_7686 <obj:Foo> done bool::true
08:39 luqui hmm, evalbot doesn't spawn a new pugs it seems, as this is different from the command line
08:40 autrijus aye
08:40 autrijus I'll bbiab, keynote endeth
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09:17 svnbot6 r7687 | luqui++ | Made lazy {} execute its closure at most once.
09:17 autrijus luqui++
09:18 luqui the last thing is to fix that last todo in that .t
09:18 luqui make it so you can pass lazies around
09:18 luqui any advice?
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09:19 rafl_ Yeah.. be lazy. Pass it around. Let it do someone else.
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09:19 autrijus rafl++
09:21 gaal heya
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09:22 autrijus luqui: looking
09:22 gaal rafl: I haven't gotten to trying a ghc build yet, sorry
09:22 gaal Can you look at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-b​in/bugreport.cgi?bug=319812 ? It sounds like it should be simple to fix...
09:23 rafl autrijus: I have a new problem with cabal and include-dirs. Isn't there a way to specify directories that should contain include files but which aren't needed to be available when registering the cabalized package?
09:24 luqui seems that you can assign and bind lazies freely and they don't get evaluated, so some evaluation must be happening when you pass it to a sub
09:24 autrijus ask on #haskell or syntaxninja or the cabal list?
09:25 rafl gaal: That's about ghc-cvs. ghc6 has already done it's gmp transition.
09:25 rafl autrijus: I got ignored on #haskell twice. syntaxninja wasn't there, iirc. I'll try the list now..
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09:28 nothingmuch morning
09:29 luqui morning nothingmuch
09:29 pdcawley has joined #perl6
09:30 nothingmuch evening luqui
09:30 nothingmuch also morning pdcawley
09:30 luqui 3:30 am is evening?
09:30 nothingmuch conceptually
09:30 autrijus k...
09:30 autrijus luqui: yes, I'm looking
09:30 nothingmuch you are still awake, not already awake, right?
09:31 luqui autrijus, thanks :-)
09:31 * nothingmuch forgot how nice Nighthawks at the Diner is
09:31 luqui I'm trying to chase it down myself, but it's slow-going because of my unfamiliarity with the source of course (of course)
09:31 luqui nothingmuch, L::AG 0.07 is out.  backwards-incompatibl
09:32 luqui e
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09:32 * nothingmuch_ reroutes through wifi instead of ethernet
09:32 pdcawley Morning all
09:34 luqui hiya pdcawley
09:35 pdcawley Well, EUOSCON's fun.
09:36 * luqui wishes he were there
09:36 pdcawley Oh, in that case, it's dull as ditchwater, you wouldn't enjoy it. Don't worry, you're not missing anything.
09:37 pdcawley Like MS releasing some software under a BSD like license.
09:37 autrijus yeah right.
09:37 luqui what!?
09:37 rafl It isn't even far from here. I just can't get there because it takes place just after semester started.. :-/
09:37 * pdcawley grins.
09:37 pdcawley Tim's blogged about it.
09:37 luqui rafl, that was my biggest blocker too
09:37 autrijus and they have extremely good licenses!
09:37 luqui except, s/just/much/
09:37 autrijus # http://www.microsoft.com/resources/sharedso​urce/licensingbasics/permissivelicense.mspx
09:37 pdcawley That BSD like one's 3 paragraphs long. You don't have to scroll the browser.
09:37 rafl luqui: One week earlier and it woudn't have been a problem.
09:38 autrijus all of them are.
09:38 pdcawley Yeah, even the 'look don't touch' one makes sense.
09:39 * nothingmuch_ would like to take HPUX, put it on a surgical table, and then ram a large chainsaw up it's *$^!%
09:39 nothingmuch_ after which I will repeatedly remove and reinsert said large chainsaw several times
09:39 Cryptic_K has joined #perl6
09:39 nothingmuch_ and then I would dump HPUX in an alley so that it can blead to death
09:39 * pdcawley notes that the plan to make Office talk Opendoc might get a good deal easier...
09:40 autrijus luqui: I see
09:40 autrijus luqui: it's trying to get type information out of a thunk.
09:40 autrijus and currently you can't know that without evaluting it.
09:40 autrijus suggestions?
09:40 autrijus I think we bundle type information with a thunk.
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09:40 luqui well, first, if the sub is untyped, don't try to get type information
09:40 luqui s/sub/param/
09:41 autrijus sure
09:41 autrijus but in general case.
09:41 luqui autrijus, yes, we could bundle type info with a thunk... but where do we get it?
09:41 autrijus using evalExpType
09:41 autrijus which does some inferencing
09:41 luqui ahh
09:41 * luqui didn't know pugs did that yet
09:42 autrijus it's crude
09:42 autrijus doesn't do two way propagation
09:42 luqui the other question:  sub foo ($x where { $_ < 3 }) {...}
09:42 luqui I guess we're forced to eval
09:42 luqui of course
09:42 autrijus yeah
09:42 luqui no problem
09:42 autrijus the "where" form is sugar
09:43 luqui well, for starters, how can I get rid of eval for untyped params?
09:43 luqui mostly so I know where to look
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09:48 luqui what the heck are we doing typechecking for?
09:48 luqui ?eval sub foo(Int $bar) { say $bar }   foo("hello")
09:48 evalbot_7687 hello bool::true
09:48 luqui because it's not working
09:49 autrijus er, we typecheck for mmd
09:49 autrijus and coerce when we give up
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09:50 luqui so "hello" as Int eq "hello"?
09:50 autrijus the cute thing is that we don't actually coerce the value ;)
09:50 autrijus (as you must be aware, none of this behaviour is specced, so I just punted)
09:51 luqui ahh right
09:51 autrijus anyway, it's all in Eval.Var
09:51 autrijus findSub and evalExpType
09:51 autrijus I'll fix the thunk first.
09:52 luqui and what aspect of the thunk are you fixing?
09:52 autrijus data VThunk = MkThunk
09:52 autrijus    { thunkExp  :: Eval Val
09:52 autrijus    , thunkType :: VType
09:52 autrijus    }
09:52 autrijus    deriving (Typeable)
09:52 autrijus this aspect.
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09:52 luqui okay
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10:08 * luqui is fading
10:08 * luqui beds
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10:10 autrijus <- with sky in speaker's room
10:10 autrijus trying to hack a PIL-Run based on heavily optimized perl5 opcodes
10:13 autrijus also praising the sanity of var-reg-as-pad in new parrot
10:15 iblechbot has joined #perl6
10:17 autrijus lunch &
10:20 dada has joined #perl6
10:25 coral autrijus: hi, sky!
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11:21 Juerd_ Heuh, tehmaze :)
11:21 Juerd_ Hi :)
11:21 tehmaze heya Juerd_ ;)
11:21 tehmaze greets from Oscon
11:22 Juerd_ Heh, what brings you there?
11:22 tehmaze my employer :p
11:24 Juerd_ Are you there with or without a mission?
11:24 tehmaze no, I'm ought to find new collegues
11:24 Juerd_ (Or is that confidentian? ;))
11:24 Juerd_ s/ian/ial/
11:25 tehmaze but I'm off for a python reading now, ttyl
11:25 Juerd_ Have fun
11:25 tehmaze thanks
11:25 Juerd_ Watch out for the snake.
11:25 tehmaze teh snake!
11:25 Juerd_ slangetje
11:26 nothingmuch_ is now known as nothingmuch
11:26 * theorbtwo wonders where tehmaze works.
11:26 theorbtwo Allo, nm.
11:28 coral http://tehmaze.nl/about/
11:29 nothingmuch hola theorbtwo
11:29 nothingmuch we're getting el-cheapo rain here
11:29 * nothingmuch is delighted
11:31 theorbtwo Ah.  The netherlands.  A bit too far.
11:32 theorbtwo Rain in the desert?  Sounds ++able.
11:32 theorbtwo We're getting very-heavy rain, then no rain, on a loop.
11:33 Juerd_ tehmaze: Did my site inspire you on the blinking ascii art cursor? :)
11:33 tehmaze Juerd_: hmm, not really :)
11:34 Juerd_ gmta then :)
11:35 Juerd_ (fsd)
11:36 coral tehmaze: i nearly tried typing something at the command line.
11:36 coral what with all the random dhtml sites these days
11:36 coral i know eventually it'll work somewhere =)
11:37 tehmaze coral: lol :)
11:37 Juerd_ heh
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12:09 Juerd_ Hello, pdcawley
12:10 pdcawley Hi Juerd
12:14 tehmaze pdcawley: you stole my ip, bastard! ;)
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12:16 pdcawley ?
12:16 pdcawley I did?
12:17 tehmaze j/k, where are you at ?
12:17 tehmaze brb, next conference :p
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12:57 metaperl here's one place that usage of "." instead of "->" makes sense:  <uv><xsp:expr>$w->{uv}</xsp:expr></uv>
12:58 metaperl already enough greater than signs without one coming from Perl
12:58 tehmaze or get the variable out of the quotes
12:59 autrijus yo
12:59 * autrijus just handed a perl6 shirt to the ironpython guy
13:00 Juerd_ autrijus: You're evil in a very friendly way :)
13:01 autrijus :D
13:01 Juerd_ tehmaze: Will you be at the post-oscon amsterdam.pm meeting tomorrow?
13:02 tehmaze Juerd_: nope
13:02 Juerd_ http://amsterdam.pm.org/meetings/after_oscon.html
13:02 Juerd_ Oh, why not?
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13:03 Juerd_ I haven't seen you since wth :)
13:03 Juerd_ Now, that's nothing special, as we usually only meet once a year (this time not at ne2000, though), but still :)
13:03 tehmaze hehe
13:03 tehmaze just not my cup of tea
13:04 Juerd_ How can it be that #perl6 is your cup of tea, but amsterdam.pm with a light technical perl6 related program is not? :)
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13:05 coral i do very badly with groups of perl people off of irc
13:05 tehmaze Juerd_: I'm more interested in the parrot development than perl6 itself
13:05 Juerd_ Oh
13:05 Juerd_ coral: Why's that?
13:05 Juerd_ tehmaze: Then don't forget to also join irc.perl.org #parrot, if you haven't already
13:05 coral Juerd: i don't like talking about perl when i'm not on irc, mostly :)
13:06 tehmaze Juerd_: nooo, not yet another irc server :p
13:06 Juerd_ tehmaze: You use irssi and must not care.
13:06 coral except for social politics and stuff :)
13:06 Juerd_ coral: Hm. You lead two separate lives?
13:07 tehmaze Juerd_: I lead 3, anything wrong with that? :)
13:07 Juerd_ tehmaze: Three? I thought you had just one :)
13:07 coral Juerd: this is the only perl irc channel i'm in.
13:07 tehmaze Juerd_: nope
13:07 Juerd_ coral: I see
13:07 coral no, you perl
13:07 Juerd_ tehmaze: Heh
13:08 coral else you'd be in #c6 or something
13:08 coral qed
13:08 Juerd_ coral: see ne c
13:08 * coral grins
13:08 Juerd_ coral: And is this really what e.d.?
13:08 coral ok, i'm going back to talking about perl now
13:08 Juerd_ :)
13:08 Juerd_ And I'm going to my office now
13:08 Juerd_ To see if there's anything for me to do.
13:08 Juerd_ afk
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14:15 eric256 morning
14:16 autrijus yo eric256
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14:19 eric256 talks went well?
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16:08 ajs_ I tried to send mail about S29 to the list yesterday, but it bounced. Seems that the list no longer accepts mail from residential MTAs (or some equally foolish reason for not accepting mail from by 10-year-old mail server.
16:08 ajs_ (reason: 550 Blocked. Contact [email@hidden.address] Include this in the subject: 24.61.76.204)
16:08 ajs_ Joy
16:08 adamc00 has joined #perl6
16:10 ajs_ I'll continue to work on it. I guess when I'm done I can let the channel know, and put a draft up on my Web server.
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16:48 * nothingmuch is upset
16:48 nothingmuch the bag I bought for my laptop was advertized as suitable for 17" laptops
16:48 nothingmuch today it slipped as I was going out of the car
16:48 nothingmuch and fell, from a short distance, on the pavement
16:48 nothingmuch it hit a corner which was completely unprotected
16:48 nothingmuch now it's dented
16:49 Juerd_ What has the 17" do do with this?
16:49 nothingmuch and the two sides of the laptop have been compressed
16:49 nothingmuch Juerd_: the laptop was too big to be protected by the backpack
16:49 Juerd_ Oh
16:49 * eric256 thinks backpacks are for carrying, not for protecting in a fall
16:49 Juerd_ eric256: Mine is for both, but it was expensive
16:49 nothingmuch while the sleeve covered it, and it seemed OK, in effect when you press down on that corner, nothing is stopping you from touching the corner of the laptop
16:49 nothingmuch so was mine
16:50 nothingmuch $70 or so
16:50 nothingmuch which is not $200, but it still advertizes protection
16:50 Juerd_ hmm
16:50 Juerd_ Yea
16:50 nothingmuch anyway, so now the mashed up side is scraping the plastic from the screen hinge
16:50 nothingmuch and on the other side a connector is slightly deformed
16:50 nothingmuch i need to open it up and bend it back from inside
16:51 nothingmuch but the hardware store is already closed and all my screwdrivers are too big
16:51 nothingmuch *sigh*
16:51 Juerd_ See if your insurance covers this before you open thi thing op
16:51 Juerd_ s/thi\b/this/; s/op$/up/
16:51 nothingmuch i have no insurance =(
16:51 Juerd_ Oh
16:51 nothingmuch i think
16:52 nothingmuch there's the 1 year warranty, but it's not against that kind of stuff
16:52 Juerd_ True
16:52 Juerd_ Did you pay for it by credit card? Some cc companies provide insurance for all purchases
16:53 nothingmuch hmm... i'll ask
16:53 nothingmuch i did
16:53 nothingmuch crap, no bottom cases on ebay
16:54 r0nny has joined #perl6
16:54 Juerd_ Hello, rzeronny
16:56 Xzanron has joined #perl6
17:03 saorge has joined #perl6
17:04 pasteling "Xzanron" at 82.43.184.103 pasted "Code and Output" (21 lines, 513B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13792
17:04 r0nny hoi
17:04 Xzanron i'm having trouble with a scropt
17:04 r0nny is Juerd_ a bot ?
17:04 Xzanron i'm using CGI to try and create a webpage
17:04 Juerd_ No, I'm not
17:04 Juerd_ Xzanron: With Perl 6?
17:05 r0nny then u are fast ;P
17:05 Xzanron Hmm.. not sure
17:05 Boogie has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
17:05 eric256 yea...we can't get him out of the room either
17:05 r0nny script ?
17:05 Juerd_ Xzanron: Then you're probably not. Perl 6 is not finished yet.
17:05 Xzanron ah ok..
17:05 Juerd_ Xzanron: You'd have known :)
17:05 Juerd_ Xzanron: Please visit #perl
17:05 Xzanron is there a normal perl channel around?
17:05 Xzanron ok.. couldn't find that in the list.. sorry :)
17:05 Juerd_ Xzanron: No problem :)
17:05 Juerd_ eric256: Oh.
17:05 Juerd_ has left
17:06 eric256 lol
17:06 eric256 come on back man.  ;)
17:07 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
17:07 r0nny btw - isi wish catalyst was allready ported
17:07 r0nny -si
17:08 r0nny laterz
17:08 Xzanron has left "Leaving"
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17:23 Juerd_ Can I come back yet? :)
17:29 rep sure
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17:35 Juerd_ This channel is big!
17:35 Juerd_ I had never noticed :)
17:35 Juerd_ We have many lurkers
17:36 misc wow, indeed
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17:36 Juerd_ is now known as Juerd
17:40 eric256 yea 113 people, 4 who talk....and me babbling to myself
17:40 eric256 lol
17:42 tewk how is the parrot target going, I haven't heard a status since leo merged, I'd like to start playing with mod_parrot and perl6 ?
17:43 * tewk , A lurker makes asks his monthly question :)
17:44 mrborisguy tewk:  I think it's progressing along nicely
17:44 mrborisguy they released 3.0 not too long ago
17:44 mrborisguy I don't follow it very well, but it seems to have lots of activity
17:45 tewk I meant pugs targeting parrot, I follow parrot.
17:45 r0nny re
17:46 mrborisguy oh.  I can't go in depth on that, either.
17:46 mrborisguy pugs can output pir based on perl6, but you probably know that.
17:46 r0nny does anyone know a good lib for dynamic depency tracking ?
17:55 autrijus woot
17:55 autrijus gave David Heinemeier Hansson a Pugs shirt :)
17:56 autrijus (and chatted a while about perl6 and continuations)
17:56 xerox What kind of continuations? :-D
17:56 autrijus serialized :)
17:56 xerox Woot!
17:57 stevan autrijus: automated visiolation of the metamodel :) http://perlcabal.org/~stevan/mm_viz/test.jpg
17:57 autrijus stevan: oh wow
17:57 autrijus this is visio?
17:57 stevan graph viz
17:57 stevan this is just the bare Perl6::MetaModel
17:57 autrijus eggcellent! automated?
17:57 stevan yes
17:57 autrijus :D
17:57 stevan 2 hour hack at this point
17:58 stevan I am going to clean it up more
17:58 autrijus nice
17:58 Juerd What happened with graph viz?
17:58 joao has quit IRC ("gtg")
17:58 autrijus maybe I'll show that to david
17:58 xerox Smells like reflection
17:58 stevan you can also load any test file,... and see the structure it creates
17:58 Juerd I remember it as something that makes ugly pictures
17:58 Juerd This looks good.
17:58 stevan Juerd: http://perlcabal.org/~stevan/mm_viz/test.jpg
17:58 stevan xerox: yes, MM is very reflective
17:58 autrijus stevan++ # crazy cool
17:59 xerox The automation itself is written in p6?
17:59 pasteling "stevan" at 67.186.136.119 pasted "the code to generate the graph viz models" (92 lines, 2.6K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13794
17:59 stevan xerox: that is the code
17:59 mrborisguy stevan: you may want to put a key on that if you're showing it to people
17:59 stevan xerox: no it is still in p5 it is a prototype
18:00 stevan mrborisguy: yes, I am working on cleaning it up right now
18:00 stevan the basic key is this:
18:00 stevan --- subclas of --->
18:00 stevan ... instance of ....>
18:00 stevan solid lines is does()
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18:01 stevan it just traverses down from Object
18:01 Juerd What is an EigenClass?
18:01 xerox JavaScript? :D
18:02 joao has joined #perl6
18:02 stevan Juerd: it is a ruby thing (sort of)
18:02 stevan Juerd: it stores the class methods in it
18:02 stevan so that the dispatcher is still generic
18:02 stevan it is basically just an anon class inserted between Foo and Class
18:03 stevan I will export another to show what I mean
18:03 * xerox yummys some chestnuts
18:04 joao has left
18:04 stevan Juerd: look here http://perlcabal.org/~stevan/mm_viz/test2.jpg
18:04 stevan EigenClass[Class]<13> holds the class methods for Point3D
18:04 stevan and EigenClass[Class]<10> holds the class methods for Point
18:05 joao has joined #perl6
18:06 xerox o_O
18:06 stevan the code this represents is basically just class Point {} and class Point3d is Point {}
18:06 xerox Is there an "Haskell's (.)" in p6?
18:07 mrborisguy xerox: as in the compose operator?
18:07 xerox Yep.
18:08 autrijus david likes that :)
18:08 Jooon has joined #perl6
18:09 autrijus also mentioned Matz loves the p6 -> but ruby people objected to that in rubyconf
18:09 autrijus (david prefers the "def { ... }" form)
18:09 autrijus which is just like "sub { ... }"
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18:10 * eric256 stares at stevans pictures...and stares and stares....someday hopefully i will learn enough by osmosis to understand. lol
18:10 * eric256 presses his forhead agianst the screen to assit the osmosis. ;)
18:10 Juerd stevan: I don't understand a thing of it, really. Sorry.
18:10 stevan it needs a legend
18:11 stevan and better coloring
18:11 Juerd I probably lack the required background knowledge
18:11 stevan which is what I am doing now
18:11 stevan Juerd: probably a little yes
18:11 stevan however, even when I explain it,.. it is still confusing :)
18:11 Juerd autrijus: In *use*, -> is much like ruby's ||
18:12 Juerd autrijus: Even though it does something else.
18:12 kolibrie stevan: I find it easier if I know where to start, and can find a path to follow (initialization order)
18:12 Juerd autrijus: Or, actually, it's not that different, as Ruby code blocks are also passed as arguments, eventually
18:12 stevan kolibrie: yeah, its hard to get graphviz to cooperate on that
18:13 Juerd autrijus: Except that we first have something return a list and then foreach that, while Ruby lets the methods themselves do the iteration work
18:14 Juerd object.method.each { |x| ... } versus for $object.method -> $x { ... }
18:14 Juerd We could, in theory have $object.method(-> $x { ... }), but it'd be unperlish
18:15 Juerd It is a bit weird though, that we go through a lot of trouble to have lazy lists, while Ruby doesn't even need them :)
18:15 * stevan goes back to reading the graphviz documentation &
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18:43 mrborisguy can somebody clarify the '-> $x {...}' construct for me?
18:44 mrborisguy is it basically like Haskell's (\x -> ... ) construct?
18:44 mrborisguy somehwat like an anonymous sub?
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18:47 Aankhen`` G'night.
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18:56 ajs_ mrborisguy: still around?
19:03 eric256 mrborisguy - yes it is something like that
19:03 eric256 sub ($x) { }
19:04 masak could someone explain to me more precisely what a "lispish macro" is?
19:04 masak they're supposed to be much better than, say, c macros
19:06 masak and perl6 is supposed to have them
19:06 masak are they covered in any of the synopses?
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19:10 kolibrie masak: I'm no authority, but what I understand from that is that the macros change the AST, rather than text (which would have to then be parsed into AST)
19:11 masak kolibrie: it sounds to me that such macros are functions, more or less
19:12 eric256 i think you could consider macros like inline functions...but don't quote me on that ;)
19:12 masak eric256: yes, i was thinking of inline functions
19:13 masak i see now that they discussed it a lot in a recent p6-lang thread
19:13 ingy seen autrijus
19:13 jabbot ingy: autrijus was seen 1 hours 4 minutes 20 seconds ago
19:16 eric256 TSA replied to my post but i havn't a clue what he said....
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19:28 eric256 http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=265209
19:29 eric256 that discusses the macros and refers to S06 for more info
19:36 luqui ?eval macro foo () { }
19:36 evalbot_7687 undef
19:36 luqui ?eval macro foo () { "+1" }   3 foo
19:36 evalbot_7687 Error:  unexpected "f" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
19:36 luqui ?eval macro foo () { "1+" }   foo 3
19:36 evalbot_7687 Error:  unexpected "3" expecting "(", term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
19:37 Eimi ?eval macro postfix:foo () { "+1"}; 3 foo
19:37 evalbot_7687 Error:  unexpected "f" expecting operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
19:38 eric256 i don't think macros are implemented yet
19:38 Eimi Well, that would explain why it's hard to use them
19:38 luqui :-)
19:38 eric256 ?eval macro foo () { "1" } ; foo;
19:38 evalbot_7687 1
19:38 eric256 ?eval macro foo () { "1+2" } ; foo;
19:38 evalbot_7687 3
19:39 eric256 or maybe they are. ;0
19:39 luqui Hm
19:39 luqui ?eval macro foo ($x) { "1+$x" }   foo "3"
19:39 evalbot_7687 "1+3"
19:39 luqui that looks like a sub call to me
19:39 luqui but it's not *quite*, given your example
19:39 luqui ?eval macro foo ($x) { "1+$x" }   foo 3
19:40 evalbot_7687 "1+3"
19:40 luqui ?eval macro foo ($x) { 1+$x }   foo 3
19:40 evalbot_7687 4
19:40 luqui ?eval macro foo ($x) { "" }   1 + foo 3
19:40 evalbot_7687 1
19:41 * luqui has no idea
19:41 luqui ?eval macro foo ($x) { "$x+1" }   1 + foo 3
19:41 evalbot_7687 5
19:41 luqui ack
19:41 luqui this is weird
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19:50 ajs_ To the question of LISP vs. other forms of macros: LISP macros are powerful because they directly manipulate code rather than pre-compiled text. I'll give you an example of why this is powerful:
19:52 ajs_ You have a macro that takes a list of functions as its parameter. Each function will start with a conditional. You check the conditionals in the macro and write an optimized switch that jumps into the correct function at the point after the conditional. You do all of this AT RUNTIME.
19:52 ajs_ er, that is AT COMPILE TIME
19:54 Juerd http://juerd.nl/takahashi/icons.html  # first attempt :)
19:56 obra juerd: what is that?
19:56 Juerd A try
19:57 Juerd Do you know the takahashi method of presentation?
19:57 obra yeah.
19:57 obra I guess "why all the icons"
19:57 obra Or is this a refinement?
19:57 obra "no words takahashi"
19:58 Juerd It works great with japanese, it works less great with english... I thought maybe it could work with icons :)
19:58 tehmaze what is it?
19:58 obra cool
19:58 * obra has takahashi-ed his talk for npw
19:58 Juerd obra: This is a 30 second presentation, though :)
19:58 Juerd Just trying it.
19:59 obra Juerd: nice
19:59 tehmaze what is takahashi, enlighten me please :)
20:00 obra google 'takahashi method'
20:00 Juerd The message basically is: takahashi method with icons / bullet slides / throw them away / takahashi had an idea / small letters suck / enlarge / instant clarity / takes time / makes people happy / japanese / other languages / everyone (understands) / this is an elephant / better!
20:01 tehmaze lol :)
20:01 tehmaze takahashi, 'huge characters'
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20:01 Juerd Actually
20:03 Juerd The message basically is: takahashi method with icons / bullet (slides) / throw them away / (takahashi had an) idea / small letters (suck) / enlarge / (instant) clarity / (takes much) time (to prepare) / (but makes people) happy / (works well for) japanese / (not necessarily for) other languages / (but everyone on this) planet (understands) / (this is an) elephant / better!
20:04 cpl593h has joined #perl6
20:05 Juerd I hope that a normal takahashi presentation takes less time to prepare per 30 seconds, though :)
20:05 Juerd This took me an hour
20:05 Juerd (Finding icons and japanese for "I do not speak Japanese")
20:08 theorbtwo An hour per 30 seconds of talk?
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20:10 GeJ never attended a takahashi presentation yet, but if you haven't been there, my feeling is that the slides are not so helpful unless you already know what it's talking about.
20:11 Juerd theorbtwo: With icons, yeah, apparently :)
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20:49 Shillo Hullo. :)
20:57 eric256 hello
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21:10 eric256 anyone know if there is a reason that pugs -V returns the wrong subersion number?
21:10 eric256 subversion (not the svk or svn but teh actual .28 portion)
21:12 PerlJam ah, such confusing terminology
21:12 eric256 lol
21:18 * Odin- subverts the terms.
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21:27 stevan Juerd: diagrams with some explainations http://perlcabal.org/~stevan/mm_viz/index.html
21:28 eric256 on the test 10 pages shouldn't the Point3D class somehow say that is inherits Point?
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21:29 meppl is anybody planing making a java-compiler for parrot?
21:29 stevan eric256; yes :) changing now
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21:31 stevan eric256: fixed now,.. thanks
21:31 PerlJam meppl: Feel free to write one.
21:31 meppl :D
21:31 meppl perljam, i only was interested
21:31 eric256 np...is there a short 15 word or less example of why you want eignclasses?  if not thats okay ;) looks like it might have something to do with roles versus classes
21:32 stevan parrot -e "perl -e 'javac @ARGV'"
21:32 stevan eric256: it is to keep method dispatch consistent
21:32 PerlJam eric256: The "work" of doing class-things needs to happen somewhere.
21:33 stevan method dispatch looks at the class of an instance for methods
21:33 stevan well Foo is an instance of Class, but class methods for Foo are not stored in Class
21:33 stevan so the Eigenclass steps inbetween and can easily hold the class methods for Foo
21:33 eric256 gotcha...i think. ;)
21:34 stevan eric256: we directly stole it from Ruby,.. name and all
21:34 stevan *cough* s/stole/borrowed/ *cough*
21:36 eric256 so class Foo declares an instance of class Class ?
21:36 eric256 and since its an instance it needs somewhere to exist?  kinda the jist of it?
21:37 stevan class Foo is an instance of Class
21:37 stevan Class being itself a class
21:37 eric256 alright...thats enough to keep my head busy for a while ;)
21:37 stevan :)
21:38 eric256 at least now when i look at your pretty pictures they mean slightly more than before ;)
21:38 stevan this used to keep me up at night,.. literally,.. the spinning....
21:38 eric256 you need like a Perl6 OO for newbs ;)
21:39 svnbot6 r7688 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel -
21:39 svnbot6 r7688 | stevan++ | * fixed naming of Eigenclasses
21:39 svnbot6 r7688 | stevan++ | * minor tweaks in a few tests
21:39 svnbot6 r7688 | stevan++ | * added GraphViz driven class grapher,.. see examples at
21:39 svnbot6 r7688 | stevan++ |   http://perlcabal.org/~stevan/mm_viz/index.html
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21:42 GeJ stevan: how much do you think the average Joe Sixperl should know about the MM? isn't all the EigenClass, Roles & co. too, hum... scary compared to the Class/Interface of let's say Java?
21:42 eric256 you don't actualy need to know about EigenClass's at all
21:42 eric256 btw...Java is terrifiying!!! madness i say madness!!!
21:43 stevan GeJ: You will need to know about classes and roles
21:43 eric256 ?eval  my @x = (1..5); print shift @x, "hello", @x;
21:43 evalbot_7688 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
21:43 stevan anything more is optional
21:43 Shillo stevan: Hiya!
21:43 stevan hey Shillo
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21:44 Shillo I feel a bit guilty about being drawn into a completely abstract discussion on the mailing list. :)
21:44 stevan GeJ: I expect it will be like symbol tables are in p5, some people use them, others avoid them, but in the right hands, they can be a powerful tool
21:45 stevan Shillo: isnt that what p6l is for ;)
21:45 Shillo :)
21:47 GeJ stevan: ok... and for the EigenClass, as I see your diagram (Test30) it seems that there is an e-<ClassName> for every <ClassName> used. Won't that be a big overhead?
21:48 * GeJ nods at eric256... definitely a Perl6 00 for Dummies
21:48 stevan GeJ: yes, it is a bit of overhead, however, they are fairly slim if you dont use them
21:48 stevan and to add them in dynamically is very difficult because they must maintain the mirrored hierarchy
21:48 GeJ they're 'auto-generated', right?
21:49 stevan yes, when a class is created, an eigenclass is created for it
21:49 GeJ oki
21:49 stevan they are really just an implementation detail
21:49 * GeJ can't wait to get a 6.28.0
21:51 obra What's left?
21:51 stevan for 6.28.0? the metamodel mostly
21:51 GeJ $work and $life prevent me to get my feet wet yet --while I spend a pretty good amount of time looking at what's happening in the P6 world-- but once I get it, geez I want to play with that babe of yours guys :)
21:51 GeJ PIL2 implementation wasn't part of it?
21:52 obra How much metamodel work is left?
21:52 stevan obra: I am not sure how far autrijus has gotten on the Haskell port
21:52 obra *nodnod*
21:53 stevan there are still some stones left unturned in the prototype, but I think we need to integrate with the container model and runtime to figure those out
21:53 stevan and that is best done in Pugs itself
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21:55 stevan obra: also the metamodel is mostly based on A12, with some stuff added from recent discussions, but some of the more recent digressions have not been added/experimented with
21:55 svnbot6 r7689 | stevan++ | Perl6::MetaModel - cleaning up some junk at the end of the file
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21:56 rafl stevan: How much faster performs Chaos.pm compared with Chaos/Upoptimized.pm?
21:57 rafl stevan: And why does the Unoptimized version get installed? Doesn't seem to be used. Let's delete it. It's still in the RCS...
21:58 stevan rafl: Chaos.pm runs about 400% faster I think (something like that)
21:58 stevan however the recent eigenclass stuff slowed everything down
21:59 stevan rafl: the unoptimized version is there for reference mostly, I think it worth keeping in RCS though
22:00 rafl Even if you delete it, it's still in the RCS. History won't get deleted :-)
22:00 stevan well this is meant to be a prototype, so keeping a clean readable version is useful I think
22:00 stevan at least until autrijus ports it to haskell
22:01 rafl Do you still maintain it and put port the new changes from Chaos.pm?
22:01 stevan rafl: yes
22:02 rafl Great. Maybe butting it into a directory that doesn't get installed would be OK.
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22:02 stevan rafl: that works for me
22:02 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
22:03 rafl Thanks.
22:03 stevan rafl: I will move it to docs/
22:04 stevan actually I will do it in a few hours, right now its time for dinner &
22:04 rafl Bon appetit!
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22:16 dduncan fyi, I just posted to P6L a design problem I've been facing for awhile, and I appreciate feedback
22:17 dduncan it concerns the combination of a pair of related classes that form a solution, and people that want to subclass that solution
22:17 dduncan any replies should be on P6L, and I now have to leave for a few hours
22:17 dduncan thanks
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22:27 Juerd stevan: It's confusing that there are subclasses of instances
22:27 Juerd stevan: The only way I can read this as a coherent thing is to separate Class into two things :)
22:28 Juerd stevan: (removing the cycle)
22:28 Juerd stevan: Also, how something can be a subclass and an instance at the same time is beyond me :)
22:28 Juerd stevan: This is all highly weird for an outsider
22:28 Juerd stevan: I hope this is not the way things work in Perl itself?
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22:34 Juerd stevan: Why do paths end in the roles (test30)?
22:35 Juerd My head hurts.
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22:39 GeJ Well, if you need a dummy to test-proof your documentation, I'd be more than willing to play this role... heck with my self esteem ;)
22:42 Juerd GeJ: That's a good idea for all documentation.
22:43 Juerd GeJ: Do you have a few years of spare time?
22:43 Juerd :)
22:43 dolmen has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:43 Juerd GeJ: You can start with Perl 5, and then move on to Perl 6.5 when you're done :)
22:55 GeJ Juerd: interesting advice... let me consid... "no" :)
22:55 GeJ with all due respect, of course :)
22:59 rafl Juerd: squirremail on feather seems to be broken.
23:00 rafl Warning: fsockopen(): unable to connect to localhost:143 in /usr/share/squirrelmail/plug​ins/login_auth/functions.php on line 128
23:01 rafl Why don't we use a webmailer that's written in Perl? :-)
23:01 rafl Juerd: I guess that happens because imap is disabled in favour of imaps.
23:02 eric256 has left
23:04 joepurl has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:14 Juerd rafl: Because all webmailers written in Perl suck even more than squirrelmail. Please prove I'm wrong.
23:14 svnbot6 r7690 | juerd++ | A 2-level delegation test I just thought of
23:14 Juerd rafl: imap should be enabled on localhost
23:14 rafl Juerd: telnet localhost 143 doesn't say so.
23:15 Juerd Indeed
23:15 Juerd But see /etc/dovecot/dovecot.conf
23:15 Juerd It is configured to listen on 127.0.0.1, and listen_ssl on feather.perl6.nl
23:16 rafl Maybe a packet filter?
23:16 Juerd The listen on feather.perl6.nl also does not work
23:16 Juerd In fact, dovecot isn't running.
23:17 rafl :-)
23:17 Juerd Oct 20 01:16:47 feather dovecot: pop3-login: Can't load certificate file /etc/ssl/certs/dovecot.pem: error:25066067:DSO support routines:DLFCN_LOAD:could not load the shared library
23:17 evalbot_7689 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
23:17 Juerd I wish I knew what this meant.
23:18 evalbot_7690 has joined #perl6
23:18 Juerd > Apparently someone did a non-maintainer upload and botched something in the
23:18 Juerd > process.
23:18 Juerd http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/p​kg-openssl-devel/2005-October/000112.html
23:18 Juerd Hurrah.
23:19 Juerd Ah well, it's Debian sid for a reason
23:20 Juerd (First in a long time that I have this kind of trouble, though)
23:20 Juerd First time that I have this, not a long time that I have been having this, for the record.
23:21 integral NMU means that someone other than the developer in charge released that version of the package.   Usually it's for urgent security fixes afaik
23:21 Juerd integral: I know
23:21 integral ah, I seem to have read your comments upside down :)
23:22 Juerd heh
23:22 Juerd Dowside up, then :)
23:23 rafl Juerd: Well, (s|l)trace and try to find that lib to install it?
23:25 Juerd I downgraded openssl
23:26 arjanb has quit IRC ("zzz")
23:26 Juerd There was an upgrade available, but this didn't fix.
23:26 Juerd Dovecot is running again
23:26 Juerd Hm
23:26 rafl Great, thanks.
23:26 Juerd No it's not
23:26 Juerd My ps ax was to ofast
23:28 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
23:29 Juerd Hm
23:29 Juerd Then I have no idea what is causing it.
23:30 Juerd Well, it must be libssl
23:30 Juerd But I don't know precise enough what is wrong, so I cannot fix it :(
23:32 Juerd Ahh
23:32 Juerd Downgrading *dovecot* helped
23:32 Juerd Trying 127.0.0.1...
23:32 Juerd Connected to localhost.
23:32 Juerd Escape character is '^]'.
23:32 Juerd * OK Dovecot ready.
23:35 ezra_ has quit IRC ()
23:38 Juerd Good night
23:55 stevan_ has joined #perl6
23:59 stevan_ Juerd: actually it is (probably) how Perl 6 will work

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