Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:00 stevan_ this is borrow right from CLOS, Ruby, etc
00:00 stevan_ Class must be something right?
00:00 stevan_ unless you assume that Class springs forth from the runtime fully formed
00:01 stevan_ However that means that Class is a mystery to the other elements of your system (unless you explicity expose its internals)
00:01 stevan_ if it helps,.. rename Class to Klass
00:02 stevan_ Klass is just a class which describes classes (hash of methods, hash of attributes, array of superclasses)
00:03 stevan_ if you create Klass, then you can bootstrap the rest of the system in
00:03 stevan_ its actually very simple once your remove the nomenclature baggage
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00:09 stevan Juerd: as for how a subclass can also be an instance,.. it is an instance of Class, which has the ability to have subclasses
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00:10 stevan think of the basis of the system as being an instance type, instead of a class
00:11 stevan Juerd: the MiniMetaModel.pl in the docs/ dir of the Perl6-MetaModel might be helpful in explain this
00:22 stevan Juerd: this might help too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaobject
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07:14 Aankhen`` Um... question: what is this "Pugs.cabal.in" file that util/build_pugs.pl uses, and where/how do I get it?
07:18 obra you know what cabal is, yet?
07:18 Aankhen`` Not really.
07:18 obra It's the Haskell makemaker equivalent
07:18 misc something that doesn't exist ?
07:18 Aankhen`` Ah.
07:18 Aankhen`` Does this mean I'm going to have to download something?
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07:21 integral Aankhen``: Cabal comes with GHC.  Pugs.cabal.in is just a source file, it's in the pugs svn, and should be in pugs distributions
07:21 Aankhen`` Oh.
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07:22 Aankhen`` In the root directory of the pugs/ tree?
07:22 integral it's actually not the final file Cabal uses, that's Pugs.cabal
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07:22 integral Aankhen``: yep
07:22 Aankhen`` Strange, SVK doesn't seem to sync it for some reason...
07:23 integral weird
07:23 Aankhen`` Hmm.
07:24 Aankhen`` Maybe I should just delete the entire local branch and create a new one. :-\
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07:26 Aankhen`` Wha?  It's in the local branch, but it's not being pulled down.
07:27 Aankhen`` Neither is Pugs.sln
07:27 Aankhen`` Bleh.
07:27 * Aankhen`` deletes the checkout dir and tries again.
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07:32 Aankhen`` Cool, that worked.
07:40 Aankhen`` OK, Pugs still won't build.
07:41 Aankhen`` I am cursed.
07:42 pasteling "Aankhen``" at 59.144.181.34 pasted "Build fails" (14 lines, 633B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13804
07:42 Aankhen`` (in case anyone's interested :-)
07:49 rafl Aankhen``: What ghc version are you using?
07:50 Aankhen`` 6.4.1
07:51 rafl No idea. Seems to be ghc-related, though.
07:51 Aankhen`` :-\
07:51 Aankhen`` I seem to be the only one with this problem.
07:51 Aankhen`` Anyway.
07:51 Aankhen`` BBL.
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10:39 wolverian is autrijus's Pugs slide 6/55 missing a [+] or so?
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10:42 masak wolverian: i count only 46 slides in "Introduction to Pugs"
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10:47 wolverian masak, pugs2.xul, that is
10:48 autrijus yeah, it is.
10:48 wolverian autrijus, in any case, nice presentation!
10:48 autrijus thanks!
10:48 wolverian autrijus, do you know if that @fib syntax is actually official yet? do we need to mark it lazy somehow?
10:49 autrijus (@fib Y @fib[1...]).map(&infix:<+>)
10:49 autrijus I think range is lazy by default, that's official
10:49 autrijus and binding respects that too
10:49 wolverian oh, right
10:49 wolverian and [+] is syntax level so that's too eager here?
10:50 ods15 so... whats pugs? perl6's bug tracking system?...
10:50 autrijus wolverian: no, [+] will yield one single value
10:51 wolverian autrijus, oh, duh. sorry.
10:51 wolverian ods15, are you asking seriously? :)
10:51 ods15 wolverian: not atm, but i did when i first saw it
10:52 wolverian ods15, ah. was it easy to learn what it really means?
10:52 ods15 uhhh...
10:52 ods15 what does it really mean
10:53 autrijus Perl6 User's Golfing System
10:53 wolverian ods15, it's the plural of a breed of dogs, obviously
10:53 autrijus but that's a backronym.
10:53 rafl autrijus: Did someone do recordings of your talks?
10:53 rafl Preferable video recordings. :-)
10:53 ods15 you should've called it ACME PUGS
10:53 autrijus I'm going to present the haskell talk in... 30 mins
10:54 theorbtwo ods15, I think Acme::'s goal is just to be fun.
10:54 theorbtwo pugs is supposed to be fun and useful... with the emphasis on the fun.
10:54 ods15 wtf is Acme:: ?
10:54 rafl autrijus: Turn on your laptops microphone during the talk! :-)
10:55 theorbtwo Anyway, while pugs' primary author was previously well known for his work on a BTS, pugs isn't a BTS, and doesn't even use a formal BTS.
10:55 wolverian ods15, CPAN's "fun" namespace
10:56 ods15 heh didnt know that
10:56 rafl What's a BTS? I only know it as Bug Tracking System.
10:56 ods15 i was refferring to the cartoon mnopoly
10:56 ods15 rafl: thats exactly what he meant...
10:56 theorbtwo Yeah, Bug Tracking System.  I was refering to RT.
10:57 theorbtwo If you didn't know what Acme was, at least in that sense, then why did you think it should be ACME PUGS?
10:57 rafl Ah, OK. Thought of the Debian BTS which is simply called 'BTS'.
10:58 ods15 theorbtwo: i was refferring to the cartoon mnopoly
10:58 ods15 anyway, nm, i'm just brainfarting.. bbl
11:00 theorbtwo rafl: I think it's been named debbugs, but everybody in the debian world just assumes it's the one you mean when you say "the BTS".
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11:00 rafl Ah, right. The package for it is called debbugs.
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11:22 pdcawley Dunno.
11:29 nothingmuch I agree!
11:30 wolverian tentatively.
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11:39 gaal rafl, hi. 'pbuilder build' doesn't do anything on my box :/
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11:54 rafl gaal: Please show me its output.
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12:08 gaal rafl: no output at all. it returns to the prompt pretty quick
12:08 rafl gaal: May I see the output of strace -f ?
12:08 gaal sh -x show that it sourced some extra files, but then nada
12:08 gaal sec
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12:11 gaal feather:~gaal/public_html/pbuilder.out
12:13 gaal (i need the cvs version of ghc, not 6.4*)
12:14 rafl Hm, maybe your pbuilderrc is broken? That's the last file that is read before it exits..
12:15 gaal doesn't look broken...
12:15 gaal i don't have to run this as root, do i?
12:15 gaal either way it doesn't work
12:16 rafl you do.
12:16 rafl it uses chroot which normally gives you EPERM for non-root users.
12:18 gaal same behavior when run as root.
12:18 rafl Well, no idea. pure+reinstall?
12:18 rafl What's yor commandline?
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12:18 gaal where does the local mirror get created?
12:19 gaal pbuilder install ghc-cvs*dsc
12:19 gaal er
12:19 gaal s/install/build
12:19 rafl Created a chroot before?
12:19 gaal pbuilder create --mirror my_mirror
12:19 gaal yes
12:19 rafl pbuilder create --distribution=sid --mirror ... etc.
12:19 rafl Hm, no idea then.
12:19 gaal though that didn't say much either :)
12:19 rafl The chroot is put into /var/cache/pbuilder/base.tgz.
12:20 rafl Well, reportbug pbuilder
12:20 gaal hmm, that doesn't exist. okay, purging as you suggest.
12:20 autrijus yay
12:20 autrijus talk over
12:20 gaal whee
12:20 autrijus well received
12:21 rafl Recordings? :-P
12:21 autrijus http://pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul
12:22 clkao autrijus++
12:22 gugod slide-making technology improved every year
12:22 gaal wow, many changes since 24 hours ago :)
12:23 clkao gugod: so uyou need to think about next year now
12:23 autrijus gugod: Spork::Formatter::Takahashi bah
12:23 autrijus gugod: just take the resize algorithm in takahashi.js
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12:27 gaal http://pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell3.xul doesn't load?
12:28 gaal hmm does now.
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12:41 gaal rafl: apt-get dist-upgrade seems to have helped: pbuilder create now does something :)
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12:51 xinming autrijus:
12:51 xinming http://pugscode.org/euroscon/haskell.xul
12:51 xinming How do you made this? :-S
12:51 xinming impressive...
12:52 gaal xinming: view source and scroll down
12:53 xinming gaal: hmm, I read that. But... I can't find the tags I know... - -b
12:54 xinming <html> <head> </head> <body> </body> </html> that what I thought a web page must have... :-S
12:55 xinming can't open in IE. :-P
12:55 brother xinming: but it isn't html
12:56 xinming can be rendered in Firefox. But not in IE. for IE, it will ask you the location to save... :-(
12:56 gaal xinming: it's XUL, you have to use mozilla or ff
12:56 xinming gaal: Oh, Ok, I think I understand.
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12:56 kgftr|konobi gaal: sounds like there isn't a <? XML declaration at the top
12:57 kgftr|konobi oh... there is.... hhhmmm...
12:57 kgftr|konobi ah... server needs to tell IE what filetype the document is
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12:58 xinming M$ sucks. :-P
13:01 cm there should be a doctype as well
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13:19 rafl gaal: Great.
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13:24 svnbot6 r7691 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
13:24 svnbot6 r7691 | iblech++ | * t/builtins/strings/trans.t: unTODO
13:24 svnbot6 r7691 | iblech++ | * t/unspecced/evaluation_order.t: (die "first").method(die "second")
13:24 svnbot6 r7691 | iblech++ | * t/oo/delegation.t: Minor fix (s/handles join/handles "join"/).
13:24 svnbot6 r7692 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Str: Copied src/perl6/Prelude.pm's implementation of
13:24 svnbot6 r7692 | iblech++ | $str.trans, but doesn't work 100% yet (dunno why; will investigate).
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13:41 xerox Do you remember where are the pugs videos?
13:44 autrijus it's pugscode.org
13:44 autrijus "OSCON movies"
13:44 xerox Right! Thanks.
13:45 autrijus :)
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14:48 stevan_ our pasting service (http://sial.org/pbot/perl6) is gone
14:49 stevan_ I think we should switch to a LISP based one (http://paste.lisp.org/) :)
14:49 xerox Lisppaste il great.
14:50 xerox If people agree I could try getting it.
14:50 tehmaze http://perl6.pastebin.com/
14:50 tehmaze ;)
14:51 stevan_ *cough* PHP *cough*
14:51 xerox Vote?
14:51 stevan_ (+ 1 (+ 1 LISP))
14:52 stevan_ The lisp paste allows you to annotate too, which is very nice
14:52 stevan_ is now known as stevan
14:52 xerox ...or, given the anarchistic plan, it's ok to get it now :-)
14:52 stevan xerox: our old one doesnt work,.. so lets get it
14:52 xerox The administrator is currently away, I'll leave him a message.
14:52 stevan besides,.. we have invaded the haskell community,.. Lisp was bound to be next :)
14:52 stevan xerox++
14:53 Khisanth pastebin.com is quite possibly the the crappiest paste site around >_>
14:55 stevan xerox: if the Lispaste admin adds us, just change the channel topic to reflect please
14:55 Juerd tehmaze: How dare you.
14:55 Juerd xerox: Just get pastebot.
14:55 Juerd xerox: pastebot.sf.net
14:56 Juerd You can run it on feather if you like.
14:56 tehmaze Juerd: it works
14:56 Juerd tehmaze: It's PHP.
14:56 tehmaze so what
14:56 xerox stevan: will do.
14:56 Khisanth it's not even the PHP that makes it crappy :)
14:56 Juerd tehmaze: And in that case, whether it works is highly irrelevant.
14:56 stevan tehmaze: if we cared about something "just working" we wouldn't be here would be ?
14:57 tehmaze Juerd: so you won't buy anything of off an auction site too, if it's in php?
14:57 Juerd tehmaze: That's another thing. This is a Perl 6 channel.
14:57 stevan xerox: excellent, thanks
14:57 tehmaze ok, what *ever* ;)
14:57 Juerd tehmaze: Things we use must be written in Perl 6 or equally ranked language.
14:57 tehmaze Juerd: lots of my collegues will be attending amsterdam.pm btw
14:57 Juerd tehmaze: Who will?
14:57 tehmaze Juerd: Liz, Jouke, John, Bert
14:58 Juerd You work for Bookings?
14:58 tehmaze right
14:58 Juerd Ah, hm
14:58 Juerd Which John is this?
14:58 Juerd I don't think I know a Bert
14:58 tehmaze Loembang
14:58 Juerd I don't think I know him
14:58 gaal Um, new sigil!
14:58 tehmaze ok
14:58 Juerd gaal: Wha?
14:58 tehmaze Juerd: oh and Giel probably too
14:58 Juerd gaal: We have glyphs left?
14:59 tehmaze Juerd: Bert is my sysadmin-collegue
14:59 gaal Sounds like April Fools, right? How do you type the cent sign?
14:59 cm ¢T xD
14:59 Khisanth gaal: there are still symbols left on the keyboard?
14:59 Juerd gaal: wtf?
14:59 gaal p6-l
15:00 cm http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/23630
15:01 tehmaze it's not the 1st of april yet, Larry
15:01 stevan eak!
15:02 gaal hey! what happened to sial.org!?
15:02 stevan gaal: it's nothingmuch's fault I think
15:02 xerox The lispb0rgs are assimilating them.
15:02 gaal stevan: you like to blame him for everything huh!
15:03 stevan gaal: sure, why not :)
15:03 Khisanth gaal: ctrl+shift+a2 if you are using a gtk app :)
15:03 gaal Khisanth: thanks :)
15:04 gaal (but i'm not :)
15:04 Juerd replied with a few questions
15:04 gaal what other pastebots are there around?
15:04 Juerd Why are dollars instances of cents? :)
15:04 Juerd gaal: pastebot.org
15:04 Juerd gaal: Eh, pastebot.sf.net
15:04 stevan gaal: alt-4 on OS X
15:05 Juerd gaal: You may run it on feather if you wish. It's a Perl thing.
15:05 Khisanth anyone know why the cent sign is not on a qwerty keyword?
15:06 Juerd Khisanth: Which QWERTY is that? There are several dozen.
15:06 Juerd US QWERTY? Because this keyboard has only ASCII characters.
15:07 Juerd Many other QWERTYs => because the keyboard's country doesn't use cent signs
15:07 Juerd Yet others => because in practice, 'c' works equally well
15:07 Khisanth ok I guess the better question would be why ascii doesn't include the cent sign :)
15:08 kgftr|konobi autrijus: do you still have your webl10n presentation anywhere available?
15:08 Khisanth never noticed that
15:08 gaal Juerd: http://pastebot.sourceforge.net/ is a rather uninteresting page with a link to the parent directory. :/
15:08 Juerd Khisanth: It's not an official symbol, iirc
15:08 Juerd http://sourceforge.net/projects/pastebot then
15:08 Juerd And blame dngor for the stupid page on pastebot.sf.net
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15:09 gaal Can I blame nothingmuch instead? Lower overhead for me.
15:10 Juerd Heh
15:10 Juerd Hmmm
15:10 Juerd I wonder if I can have a t-shirt made before tonight with a cent symbol and a big red cross
15:10 Juerd Oh, it's past 17:00
15:10 Juerd Then probably not
15:10 Juerd Damn :)
15:11 tehmaze Juerd: make it a `50 c' with a cross then :p
15:11 Juerd I suggest 1c as the ascii equivalent :)
15:11 tehmaze oh, there is a printshop still open on the Vijzelstraat
15:12 Juerd I'm in Dordrecht.
15:12 tehmaze ah, too bad
15:15 Juerd tehmaze: We could get annoying and demand that the euro sign be used
15:15 Juerd tehmaze: It also has a C in its glyph
15:15 Juerd tehmaze: There's now a very americanized imbalance with both $ and (cent thingy)
15:15 tehmaze no, I agree that ^ is the next logical sigil to use :)
15:15 Khisanth hmm the sideways Quake symbol
15:18 Juerd tehmaze: Only if we call # the comment *sigil*
15:18 tehmaze and ! the not *sigil* ? :)
15:18 Juerd After all, #foo and #foo are practically the same sigil.
15:18 Juerd tehmaze: No, that's an operator.
15:18 tehmaze yes, ! is not a sigil, so that will fit
15:19 Juerd Hehe
15:19 tehmaze easy to remember too
15:19 Juerd not a sigil, not the not sigil.
15:19 Juerd right.
15:20 tehmaze or ¬
15:20 gaal Juerd: pastebot wants some modules from cpan (eg. POE). ok to install directly or do you want me to shoot for debs?
15:21 Khisanth that would make ??!! unpleasant to look at .. $foo ?? ... !! !!!bar;
15:21 tehmaze (shift-` on a UK QWERTY keyboard ;)
15:21 Juerd gaal: Install directly only if it's not installed already.
15:21 Juerd gaal: All available debian perl module packages ARE installed.
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15:23 gaal OK. Some things have newer versions on CPAN but hopefully this'll still work.
15:24 Juerd It will
15:24 Juerd If not, please try to use "dh-make-perl --build --install --cpan Module::Name" before installing without debian packages
15:24 Juerd And when you do need to not-use a debian package, remove the installed one first
15:24 Juerd I want to keep the machine upgradable :)
15:24 gaal wtf are Server::Web and Client::IRC that it wants?
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15:26 Juerd gaal: Those are its own modules.
15:26 gaal ah, those are parts of pastebot itself. urrr, it's not runnable from the local dir?
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15:26 Juerd gaal: pwd?
15:26 gaal (want to test this before make installing)
15:26 Juerd Skip the test. Be a man! :)
15:26 gaal ~gaal/src/pastebot-20040908
15:27 gaal if you say so :)
15:27 Juerd It can *find* the modules
15:27 Juerd But they don't compile
15:27 Juerd Because of runtime errors
15:27 Juerd (Yay for mixed compile and run times)
15:28 gaal yay for silent evals :(
15:28 Juerd Silent?
15:28 Juerd It's an mkdir error
15:28 Juerd pastebot.perl Error while loading Server::Web: mkdir pastestore failed No such file or directory at Util/Data.pm line 268.
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15:29 Juerd Compilation failed in require at Server/Web.pm line 20.
15:29 gaal s/silent eval/blind users/
15:29 gaal :(
15:29 Juerd :P
15:29 gaal they probably wanted mkpath instead of mkdir
15:29 gaal fixing
15:30 Juerd Is that an assumption?
15:31 gaal a conjecture.
15:31 Juerd That's the same as an "educated guess" :)
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15:32 gaal no, a conjecture doesn't have to be educated. :)
15:35 hareldvd__ has joined #perl6
15:36 hareldvd__ Any idea which channel for perl-Tk issues?
15:36 Juerd #perl
15:36 gaal weird! the cwd is the current one (added a debug print), so it isn't a mkpath error, but strace doesn't show a mkdir call at all.
15:37 Juerd gaal: See Ulit/Data.pm line 268 then
15:37 Juerd Util even
15:37 gaal that's where i'm looking.
15:38 Juerd Print the argument to mkdir|mkpath. Is it what you want it to be?
15:38 gaal oh, it's just a perl bug:
15:39 gaal mkpath($dir) unless -d $dir  or die "mkdir $dir failed $!";
15:39 gaal should be
15:39 Juerd ()
15:39 gaal do { mkpath($dir) or die "mkdir $dir failed $!" } unless -d $dir;
15:39 Juerd mk  or die unless -d
15:39 Juerd Cight
15:39 Juerd Right
15:39 Juerd No need for do, though
15:39 gaal s/path/dir, but mkpath is better anyway.
15:40 Juerd It's a rather silly bug.
15:40 gaal $SILLY_BUGS++
15:40 gaal counterwise, not karmawise.
15:41 featherpaste has joined #perl6
15:41 gaal hello featherpaste.
15:41 Juerd pastebot!
15:41 Juerd :)
15:41 Juerd Oh, this one doesn't respond
15:42 autrijus rehi \camels
15:42 Juerd Hi autrijus
15:42 Juerd autrijus: Had you seen http://juerd.nl/takahashi/icons.html?
15:42 featherpaste "gaal" at 192.115.25.249 pasted "pbuilder error" (20 lines) at http://feather.perl6.nl:8888/1
15:42 gaal rafl: any ideas?
15:42 Juerd changes topic to: 6.2.10 released! http://xrl.us/hxnb | geoffb's column (/. ed): http://xrl.us/hxhk | pugscode.org | pugs.kwiki.org | paste: http://feather.perl6.nl:8888/ | www.geeksunite.net
15:43 gaal Juerd: the README explains how to set up apache to forward requests to the pastebot (that's its own server), so that people behind firewalls can still access it.
15:44 autrijus Juerd: no, checking
15:44 gaal Juerd: anymoose, now that it's tested to work *g*, i'll make install.
15:45 autrijus Juerd: what is that?
15:45 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
15:46 featherpaste has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:46 xerox http://www.sooff.com/database/perform_image/0000/2005070714500022.wmv
15:47 Juerd gaal: http://feather.perl6.nl/paste/
15:47 Juerd autrijus: See http://juerd.nl/, most recent item
15:48 gaal Juerd: k, made install. Now to figure out how to have it start automatically.
15:48 autrijus Juerd: you coming to the 8pm meeting?
15:48 Juerd autrijus: Yep
15:48 Juerd autrijus: Have to find a way to park my car, but will be there.
15:48 Juerd gaal: crontab -e
15:49 gaal I heard parking is terrible in Amsterdam
15:49 Juerd gaal: @reboot /full/path/to/whatever/starts/the/daemon
15:49 autrijus Juerd: cool! the icons looks crazy enough
15:49 Juerd autrijus: This won't be an actual talk, by the way
15:49 Juerd gaal: It is.
15:50 Juerd gaal: Especially in the city centre, where this is.
15:51 gaal Juerd: Tel-Aviv is terrible that way too. Especially in the city centre, where I live!
15:51 Juerd gaal: I've never been there, or even near there :)
15:51 featherpaste has joined #perl6
15:51 Juerd wb featherpaste
15:52 gaal one more quit
15:52 featherpaste has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
15:52 wolverian Juerd, wow, SVG icons would work a bit better, methinks :)
15:53 Juerd wolverian: I can't find them :)
15:54 Juerd wolverian: This icon theme is called krystalsvg, even!
15:54 Juerd Doesn't matter for the main idea, though
15:54 featherpaste has joined #perl6
15:54 autrijus kgftr|konobi: try... web.archive.org
15:54 autrijus I've put what I have at http://autrijus.org/webl10n/
15:58 Juerd I will not complain any more that Larry is sometimes inactive in p6l ;)
15:58 autrijus roflmao
15:59 autrijus he was sitting opposite the table of me when he posted this c| thing.
15:59 Juerd (Not that I have)
15:59 hexmode has joined #perl6
16:00 xerox Un progretto con molti collaboratori internazionali si evolverá piú in fretta e meglio
16:00 xerox hah!
16:01 xerox (no 'si'!)
16:01 Juerd in fretta e meglio => ?
16:01 xerox faster and better
16:02 xerox (autrijus, I meant to say that 'si' shouldn't be there)
16:02 autrijus ok :)
16:03 autrijus bbiab, dinner...
16:03 gaal Juerd: *wanna* be there for YAPC on Feb? :)
16:03 Juerd gaal: Yeah, but by then I won't have enough cash yet.
16:03 wolverian oh, haha. larry is on a rampage
16:05 Juerd afk  # ..amsterdam!
16:06 gaal heh, best away message ever :)
16:07 gaal Juerd: re: comment spam. If you don't mind coding some Javascript, you could have the posting form mint a hashcash stamp on every comment. That is quite effective.
16:18 hcchien has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:19 theorbtwo I'm not sure I understand why this needs a new sigil -- what was wrong with ::, or with making it $type does Class?
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18:35 larsen has quit IRC ("later")
18:43 geoffb Khisanth, two things: 1) Thanks for the info about ctrl-shift-<hex> in GTK apps.  That makes my life MUCH easier.  2) You wondered why ASCII didn't include the cent sign.  Oddly enough I came across an old document that indicated you probably shouldn't use '$' because it was the only printable character in the ASCII range that was not standard on all systems of the time . . . .
18:44 geoffb Anyone happen to know what the emacs equivalent for the GTK ctrl-shift-<hex> trick for inputting arbitrary Unicode characters would be?
18:54 jp-autark geoffb: M-x insert-ucs-character
18:54 geoffb jp-autark, does that have a default binding?
18:55 jp-autark don't know.
18:55 geoffb (Just curious if I'll have to add a binding everywhere)
18:55 geoffb OK, thanks.
18:55 ingy seen whiteg
18:55 jabbot ingy: whiteg was seen 1 days 1 hours 35 minutes 28 seconds ago
18:55 geoffb Well that's interesting.  My emacs has no insert-ucs-character.
18:56 geoffb jp-autark, which emacs are you using?
18:56 jp-autark geoffb: 21.4.1
18:56 geoffb Ditto, from Debian testing.
18:56 geoffb OK, that's just odd.
18:57 geoffb Add-on emacs package, perhaps?
18:57 jp-autark maybe
18:57 geoffb apt-cache search emacs |wc
18:57 geoffb    332    2762   18095
18:57 geoffb ouch
18:58 jp-autark geoffb: maybe you need the mule-ucs package?
19:00 geoffb Giving it a try
19:00 jp-autark geoffb: there also seems to be a ucs-insert function. Dunno if that's part of mule-ucs as well though.
19:02 cm has quit IRC ()
19:02 geoffb With mule-ucs I now have insert-ucs-character
19:03 jp-autark where you able to do utf stuff with emacs without it?
19:03 geoffb Interesting, it seems to expect decimal codepoints
19:03 jp-autark geoffb: #xHEX
19:03 geoffb jp-autark, I use(d) emacs purely as an ASCII editor
19:03 geoffb I don't think I've ever loaded any file into emacs that wasn't 7-bit clean, AAMOF
19:04 jp-autark or #oOCT, #bBIN. But maybe ucs-insert is easier to use?
19:04 geoffb ah, yes, does direct hex
19:05 Khisanth ucs-insert seems to default to hex here
19:05 geoffb Nope, no *ucs* in the default keybindings
19:05 geoffb Khisanth, yeah, that's what I just found.
19:06 geoffb Now I just have to memorize some codepoints, and I'm good to go
19:06 jp-autark though insert-ucs-character may be useful if you only can remember the binary code for say 0x30a2 ;)
19:07 geoffb Ah, and ucs-insert is unique in the first two characters.  Makes M-x uc<tab> work
19:07 geoffb or rather,
19:07 geoffb M-x uc<enter>
19:08 geoffb Thanks much, jp-autark
19:08 jp-autark np, good luck remembering
19:10 geoffb Actually, I'm choosing to just learn codepoint insertion and a list of codepoints, because that makes using unicode an N + M problem, rather than an N * M using magic combinations in each app.
19:11 jp-autark hopefully your list isn't too long :)
19:11 geoffb And frankly, GTK and Emacs cover most of the places I need unicode.
19:11 geoffb jp-autark, almost entirely limited to those to be used by Perl 6, actually.  :-)
19:12 * jp-autark grins
19:12 Khisanth AB and BB are useful :)
19:12 geoffb Now if we could just convince irclogger to set the charset for #perl6 to UTF-8
19:12 geoffb Khisanth, nod.  Now remembered.
19:12 Khisanth irclogger?
19:13 * geoffb goes to look up yen
19:13 geoffb http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2005-10-20,Thu
19:13 Khisanth hrm yen is a5
19:13 Khisanth just a few spots from ¢ :)
19:14 theorbtwo OS-level compose combinations are happy things.
19:14 Khisanth $¢£€¥foo :D
19:15 geoffb Khisanth, heh
19:15 theorbtwo compose,c,/ ... yey, got it on the first guess.
19:15 Khisanth oh forgot %
19:15 theorbtwo ¢
19:15 theorbtwo «»¢¥... what am I forgetting?
19:15 geoffb theorbtwo, OS?
19:16 theorbtwo xorg/linux
19:17 geoffb theorbtwo, what is the compose key sequence there?
19:19 imperator_ has joined #perl6
19:20 theorbtwo Not sure I understand the question.
19:20 theorbtwo << = «, >> = », c/ = ¢, y- = ¥
19:22 imperator_ is perl6 doing selector namespaces? and if so, does one of the apocalypse/exegesis cover it? I just want to check out the proposed syntax
19:22 theorbtwo Selector namespaces?
19:22 imperator_ (no luck with google)
19:23 imperator_ theorbtwo, encapsulation within scope
19:23 geoffb theorbtwo, I meant, what key(s) do you use to begin a composition
19:23 geoffb ?
19:28 jp-autark geoffb: pugs/docs/quickref/unicode seems to be highly relevant.
19:28 stevan imperator_: do you mean private packages/classes?
19:28 stevan imperator_: package Foo { my package Bar {}}
19:29 stevan imperator_: Foo would be accessible from the outside, but Foo::Bar would not (IIRC)
19:30 geoffb jp-autark, thanks again
19:31 theorbtwo geoffb, you can set it to what you want; on most keymaps there isn't one by default.
19:31 theorbtwo xmodmap -e 'keycode 94 = Multi_key'
19:32 imperator_ stevan, that sounds like it :)
19:32 geoffb theorbtwo, ah, thanks
19:32 geoffb Hmmm, more is preserving unicode prettiness, but less is mangling.
19:33 theorbtwo Hold on a sec, that probably won't be useful for you.
19:33 theorbtwo 94 is the key to the right of left shift on a 102 key keyboard.
19:34 theorbtwo I'm using a German keyboard with an American keymap, making that key extra.  Most people either need it or don't have it.
19:34 ErRandir has joined #perl6
19:35 theorbtwo To find the number for an arbitrary key, use xev, put your cursor in, hit the key, and look for a line stating "keycode NN".
19:35 geoffb Yeah, saw that at the bottom of the doc jp-autark pointed out
19:35 geoffb And FWIW, 'less -r' seems to be needed to see the unicode
19:35 geoffb (as other than hex crappage)
19:36 theorbtwo Oooh.
19:39 wolverian Juerd, would it be possible to get irssi 0.8.10rc5 or some other, newer than 2003, svn version on feather?
19:40 wolverian Juerd, ubuntu packages rc5, at least. let me check debian. (it's for the /recode support)
19:40 theorbtwo I suppose it's a bit early to add ¢ to the list at the top of pugs/docs/quickref/unicode, esp since the ascii fallback hasn't been defined yet.
19:41 wolverian Juerd, ah, no, feather's apt-cache doesn't see a newer irssi. :/
19:43 ErRandir can anyone tell me what to put in the -time parameter in Tk's eventGenerate() ?
19:44 geoffb ErRandir, I'm assuming you want #perl
19:44 geoffb And BTW, why doesn't #perl appear to so many people?
19:44 Limbic_Region define doesn't appear
19:45 geoffb Limbic_Region, many people come to #perl6 when they want #perl, saying that #perl didn't appear in their channel list, but #perl6 does.
19:45 Limbic_Region ErRandir - this channel is primarily for the discussion of the development of perl6 - not to discuss issues with per5
19:45 Limbic_Region geoffb correctly indicated you should probably be in #perl
19:45 ErRandir sorry. thx
19:45 ErRandir has left "Celan o Minas Tirith"
19:45 Limbic_Region geoffb - oh, not knowing what a channel list is I hadn't ever seen that
19:46 geoffb Limbic_Region, ah
19:46 Limbic_Region my client allows me to type in the channel I want to join
19:46 integral #perl is +s.  someone should fix that *hint*
19:46 * Limbic_Region doesn't have ops in #perl
19:48 geoffb integral, what does +s mean?  Invisible?
19:48 wolverian secret
19:49 integral "let's hide from all the spambots!"
19:52 kolibrie hmm, why does my terminal allow the Ctrl-Shift-<hex> normally, but in irssi I get weird symbols?
19:53 Khisanth irssi is probably intercepting those
19:53 kolibrie for shame!
19:54 kolibrie workaround?
19:58 Limbic_Region don't use irssi
19:59 Limbic_Region ;-)
19:59 kolibrie :(
19:59 SamB has joined #perl6
19:59 imperator_ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
20:00 Limbic_Region kolibrie - I use CGI:IRC from work because I can't IRC directly - it does silly things like intercepts plus symbols (+) and doesn't display them
20:01 Limbic_Region Juerd was kind enough to hack in a fix for that specific problem - but that's clients
20:01 Limbic_Region err - that's the nature of clients
20:01 theorbtwo I could have sworn that there was a way to set the charset of a chan, but I may be thinking of gaim.
20:03 kolibrie I'm sure autrijus types unicode into his irssi
20:04 theorbtwo Oh, you should start your irssi with a unicode locale set, possibly?
20:04 theorbtwo Er, utf8, not just unicode.
20:05 Khisanth doesn't irssi have a /recode thing?
20:05 Khisanth I don't use it but I have seen that mentioned quite a few times :)
20:05 theorbtwo "No help for recode."
20:05 * kolibrie has never heard of recode
20:06 xinming has joined #perl6
20:07 kolibrie theorbtwo: LANG=en_US.UTF-8 ?
20:07 dada has quit IRC ("several species of small furry animals gathered together in a cave and grooving with a pict")
20:08 theorbtwo Looks OK to me.
20:08 theorbtwo I have LANG=en_US.utf-8.
20:09 theorbtwo http://jerakeen.org/blog/2005/06/23/screen-irssi-utf8
20:10 Juerd wolverian: .deb does not automatically mean it's compatible. In fact, it's likely to not be.
20:10 Juerd Hi from the amsterdam.pm post-oscon meeting!
20:11 Juerd wolverian: If you can get a feather-compatible .deb for irssi, go ahead. If you want to build your own irssi in your homedir, of cuorse, you're also free to do so.
20:11 kolibrie theorbtwo: sounds complicated
20:11 theorbtwo Most of that is the extra screen step.
20:13 kolibrie it worked!!
20:14 theorbtwo Cool.
20:14 xinming hmm, I saw the oscon05-autrijus.mp4 But I don't understand some idea on pugs. :-S
20:14 kolibrie actually, it looks like I only needed the irssi set command, everything else was already set that way
20:15 xinming hmm, Will pugs be the tool to bootstrap perl 6? hmm, If true. Then, after perl 6 is written, What will pugs be?
20:16 xinming I mean where should pugs project go. :-S
20:17 wolverian Juerd, right. thanks :)
20:19 PerlJam xinming: pugs doesn't have to go anywhere
20:19 theorbtwo The Road goes ever on and on,
20:19 theorbtwo Down from the door where it began.
20:19 theorbtwo Now far ahead the road has gone,
20:19 theorbtwo And I must follow, if I can,
20:19 theorbtwo Pursuing it with eager feet,
20:19 theorbtwo Until it joins some larger way
20:19 theorbtwo Where many paths and errands meet.
20:20 theorbtwo And wither then? I cannot say.
20:20 theorbtwo We'll worry about that when we get there.
20:20 theorbtwo Anything else would be premature pessimization.
20:20 Limbic_Region well, unless someone gets the bright idea of parrot targeting haskell ....
20:21 xerox \o/
20:21 theorbtwo You mean haskell targeting parrot, Limbic.
20:21 Limbic_Region no, but that too
20:21 Limbic_Region ;-)
20:22 Limbic_Region I was just saying that pugs has multiple backends currently that work the opposite way parrot is designed
20:22 Limbic_Region we turn p6 code into other languages
20:23 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
20:24 xinming a bit confused by the relation for pugs and perl 6 now. :-S
20:25 theorbtwo pugs is an implementation of perl 6.
20:25 theorbtwo It's up in the air as to if it will become /the/ implementation of perl 6.  Sources point to no.
20:26 theorbtwo However, it will almost certianly be a very useful thing in writing the perl 6, if for no other reason that people have played with it some and figured out what works, what doesn't, what is underspecified...
20:27 Khisanth hrm pasteling is back :)
20:28 xinming hmm, what does the backends do then? :-S
20:28 PerlJam theorbtwo: it *is* a very useful thing.
20:28 xinming there are many backends. :-S
20:28 xinming GHC, JS, JSON, PIL, PIR, Parrot, Perl5, Pugs
20:28 Limbic_Region xinming - forget pugs for a second
20:29 Limbic_Region p6 is intended to run on Parrot
20:29 Limbic_Region so p6 parses p6 and compiles to parrot asm
20:29 Limbic_Region introduce pugs
20:29 Limbic_Region haskell parses p6 and compiles to haskell
20:29 xinming Limbic_Region: yes, I know that, p6 bootstrap...
20:29 Limbic_Region haskell parses p6 and compiles to p5
20:29 Limbic_Region haskell parses p6 and compiles to JavaScript
20:29 xinming ....
20:30 Limbic_Region haskell parses p6 and compiles to etc
20:30 xinming ...
20:30 Limbic_Region xinming - I didn't say anything about bootstrapping
20:30 xinming amazing...
20:30 Limbic_Region that is a bi-product of parsing/compiling p6 code
20:30 xinming Limbic_Region: hm, I know, I mean p6 is parses p6 circle...
20:30 Limbic_Region or rather - that is a bi-product ability of
20:31 Limbic_Region so what I was saying is even if Pugs is used as the means for bootstrapping p6
20:31 Limbic_Region it still does things p6/parrot weren't intended to do
20:31 Limbic_Region or even ponie
20:31 svnbot6 r7693 | kolibrie++ | added some missing twigils
20:31 Limbic_Region it takes the p6 code and targets a completely different backend instead of making those languages target parrot
20:32 xinming Limbic_Region: hmm, So, what does these do in real life? Or It's just for fun? :-S
20:33 evalbot_7692 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
20:33 PerlJam xinming: for one, pugs allows us to hammer out design issues without having "the" perl6 compiler around.
20:33 xinming If so, the efficiency is too "low" IMHO...
20:33 integral -Ofun!
20:33 evalbot_7693 has joined #perl6
20:34 Limbic_Region pugs is optimized for fun
20:34 Limbic_Region err integral beat me to the punch
20:34 theorbtwo xinming: Fun is the point; being useful is just something that happens by accident sometimes.
20:34 Limbic_Region PerlJam - right, but that's not xinming's question
20:34 Limbic_Region the question was regarding post p6 1.0
20:35 theorbtwo The more interesting question is "how are we going to get to perl 6 1.0".
20:35 theorbtwo Sadly, I have no idea.
20:35 PerlJam Post p6, pugs can still fulfill that role.
20:36 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
20:36 xinming If So, we can compile the perl 6 code into haskell or perl 5 or other $language... and using the compiler which compiles other $language to get perl 6 done. right?
20:37 tehmaze has left
20:37 PerlJam pos p6, pugs will still have abilities that p6,ponie,parrot, etc. don't have.  Having features in pugs might also encourage those features to be added to the "real" p6 compiler (or ponie or p5 or parrot or whatever)
20:37 PerlJam s/^pos/post/
20:38 theorbtwo I think the most reasonable way to get to a self-bootstrapping perl6 is to make something that compiles haskell to perl6.
20:38 theorbtwo ...then run it on pugs.
20:39 xinming hmm, If what I said is true. then, which will be chosen to compile the official perl 6? :-P
20:39 PerlJam theorbtwo: I don't know about that.  It depends how quickly we can get a PGE-like thingy in haskell I think.
20:43 xinming Oh, lost again... :-S
20:44 dolmen has joined #perl6
20:44 ingy seen autrijus
20:44 jabbot ingy: autrijus was seen 4 hours 41 minutes 40 seconds ago
20:53 hlen_ has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
20:54 Juerd ingy: autrijus was seen less than an hour ago IRL
20:54 Juerd ingy: He left the meeting, probably to sleep
20:54 hlen_ has joined #perl6
20:54 ingy Juerd: thanks...
20:55 ingy maybe you can give me an opinion on a Perl module UI issue
20:55 ingy I'm reworking YAML.pm so that it can support multiple backend parser/formatters
20:56 ingy including YAML::Loader::Syck (which wraps libsyck)
20:56 ingy so do I expose these choices to the user as:
20:56 ingy use YAML -syck;
20:56 geoffb ingy++ on that
20:56 ingy or
20:56 ingy use YAML::Syck;
20:57 ingy I started on the former but am now leaning towards the latter
20:57 geoffb I would agree with that, ingy (using the latter form)
20:58 ingy the idea is that YAML::Syck would subclass YAML
20:58 theorbtwo I'd use the latter.
20:58 ingy and get all the basic UIness for free
20:58 elmex has quit IRC ("leaving")
20:58 ingy ok thanks
20:59 theorbtwo If you make them different modules, it makes it easier to have them be different os-level packages.
20:59 Qiang has quit IRC ("h")
21:00 ingy in either case they would be separate modules / distributions
21:00 theorbtwo libyaml-perl has no interesting dependencies, libyaml-syck-perl depends on libsyck and libyaml-perl.
21:01 xinming has quit IRC ("I really love GNU")
21:01 theorbtwo If they'd be sepperate modules/distributions, you'd need extra code in the superclass to support the subclass being able to have -syck support in the import.
21:01 ingy theorbtwo: right, I already wrote that and it is ugly
21:05 xinming has joined #perl6
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21:36 fmadero has joined #Perl6
21:36 fmadero is there a command one could use to list all perl modules
21:41 hareldvd__ has quit IRC ("Leaving")
21:42 nothingmuch has joined #perl6
21:42 * nothingmuch gladly announces that he managed to gently bend the enclosure of his laptop out
21:42 nothingmuch so that it's no longer scraping the hinges when the screen is opened
21:45 hexmode has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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21:57 rafl gaal: Maybe try to use a version of sid that's not that recent. snapshot.debian.net - 5-days-ago or something like that.
21:59 ingy nothingmuch: you are always breaking things ;)
22:00 rafl gaal: Also do you have cdeboostrap installed?
22:14 Eimi has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:16 mugwump stevan: I like your graphviz charts
22:17 larsen has joined #perl6
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23:52 gaal rafl: hmm, really i just need a ghc from cvs on linux. can't that bug in the binary version simply be fixed? it's "just" a wrong dependency in the package metadata apparently. #319812

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