Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-24

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:22 Ovid has joined #perl6
00:23 Ovid HI all.
00:24 Ovid Anyone here?
00:25 clkao *yawn*
00:25 Ovid I was beginning to feel lonely.
00:26 Ovid I assume that pugs does not yet automatically support automatic method creation for class variables?
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00:29 svnbot6 r7708 | Ovid++ | Stub recipes for object creation and destruction.
00:29 svnbot6 r7708 | Ovid++ | I was blocked fairly quickly on recipe 13-03 (not committed) because PUGs
00:29 svnbot6 r7708 | Ovid++ | apparently does not yet support autogenerating accessors for class instance
00:29 svnbot6 r7708 | Ovid++ | variables (or Im doing it wrong somehow)
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00:40 clkao commit tests and go to sleep, you shall see them implemented the next day
00:53 svnbot6 r7709 | Ovid++ | A couple of array recipes
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00:59 Ovid Looks like a lot of those tests are already there and they're failing.
00:59 Ovid Night all
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02:14 eric256__ anyone remember a while back, autrijus mentioned needing to add stub subs to prelude.pm in some cases?  yea thats vague i know. ;)
02:17 eric256__ hey the logs have a search button!! never mind found it
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02:32 xinming hmm, what are the differences between `class A { has $.a }; class B { has $a }; `
02:33 xinming hmm, or ` $.a =:= $a ` ?
02:34 xinming though, don't know if it would be valid to use class A { has $a; }
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02:38 eric256 the difference is still in flux
02:38 eric256 but last i read $.a meant "make public accessors for this" while has $a; meant "leave this a private attribute"
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02:51 eric256 ping Juerd
02:53 eric256 juerd, in case you backlog....building pugs seems to hang on feather...i think. maybe...not realy sure. looks like i might have three concurrent builds at the moment
02:55 xinming eric256: hm, In fact, $:a is a private attribute....
02:56 eric256 or i'm an idiot and forgot my account is used for the auto build. ;)
02:56 eric256 from recent rumblings on the list that might change.
02:56 eric256 so that $.x is public and just plain $x is private...which makes more sense in my head but who knows what will be the next finaly decision
02:57 Khisanth it seems nothing is ever final :)
02:57 eric256 nope. ;) thats part of the fun
02:57 Khisanth makes it unappealing to use though
02:58 eric256 to use? why would you think its ready for use?
02:58 eric256 its not. and if that makes it un appealing then good
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03:04 eric256 autrijus: a while back (while trying to fix shift/pop/min/max to only work on lists) you mentioned using a stub in prelude.pm  
03:05 eric256 i tried that today, but now it hands on 42.shift; any thoughts?
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03:19 * eric256 whistles and hums while waiting for pugs to compile ;)
03:29 ingy cpan-upload -mailto [email@hidden.address] -user INGY -password ******** Perl6-Bible-0.21.tar.gz
03:29 ingy Finished!
03:29 eric256 cool
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04:16 ingy why does `use No::Such::Module` crash the pugs shell?
04:16 ingy yet syntax errors do not
04:17 eric256 dunno. oddly i just did that a minute ago too ;)
04:17 * ingy wonders how to use yaml in pugs
04:22 * ingy greps a little and gives up
04:22 eric256 lol.
04:22 eric256 what error do you get?
04:22 ingy sleep&
04:22 eric256 alright. later
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05:12 gaal : FEAR: The new features won't be used by people
05:12 gaal FEAR: The new features *will* be used by people!
05:16 dduncan FEAR: both of those will happen at the same time ... in different universes ... which one will be ours?
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05:58 spinclad both of those will happen at the same time... by different people, or to different features
05:59 spinclad 'use every feature' is not a recipe for excellent programming
05:59 spinclad (especially junctions!)
06:00 wolverian junctions might be nice for automatically generating arguments in tests
06:00 spinclad .oO ( if junctions are meant to be a step up from Quantum::Superposition, why don't they have complex weights? )
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06:39 buu Oh dear god.
06:40 wolverian hm?
06:40 buu Weighted junctions
06:41 wolverian heh.
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11:51 svnbot6 r7710 | renormalist++ | - The "documentation will never be rewritten for Perl6" fear
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13:16 brother What would be the natural score in p6 golf? number of unicode glyphs or number of utf-8 chars?
13:28 Limbic_Region I think it still has to be keystrokes
13:28 Limbic_Region so using unicode glyphs may be a penalty rather than a gain
13:28 Limbic_Region how many keystrokes does it take to generate the zip glyph?
13:29 brother depends on how you keyboard is set up
13:29 theorbtwo Depends how you generate it.
13:29 theorbtwo For me, three.  For a Japanese user, probably 1.
13:29 theorbtwo I tend to think the opcount is a better measure for both perl5 and perl6, though it's not as visually obvious.
13:32 brother theorbtwo: No. one of the wonderfull thing in golf is to (ab)use precedence
13:36 theorbtwo Then again, I never much cared for golf, and it'd make eval "..." count as the best way to do everything.
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13:52 svnbot6 r7711 | juerd++ | +=1
13:53 * theorbtwo wonders what that log entry is supposed to mean.
14:04 Juerd One more.
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14:12 rafl_ karma points for Juerd, right. ;-)
14:12 jabbot rafl_: points for Juerd, right. ;-) has neutral karma
14:12 rafl_ karma jabbot
14:12 jabbot rafl_: jabbot  has neutral karma
14:12 rafl_ karma Juerd
14:12 jabbot rafl_: Juerd  has neutral karma
14:12 theorbtwo karma juerd
14:12 jabbot theorbtwo: juerd has karma of 1
14:12 rafl_ Well, maybe not. :-)
14:13 rafl_ karma rafl
14:13 jabbot rafl_: rafl has neutral karma
14:13 theorbtwo Did jabbot's karma counting get reset awful recently?
14:13 rafl_ Hm.. long time no commits..
14:13 theorbtwo jabbot, uptime?
14:13 jabbot theorbtwo: That is interesting. Please continue.
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14:18 eric256 morning
14:19 theorbtwo G'morning, eric256.
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14:24 eric256 is there something super special about prelude.pm?  because i have a fix for an issue that works in a seperate file, but when i try to compile it in prelude.pm it doesn't work anymore.
14:24 autrijus yeah, see the comments on top of Prelude.pm
14:26 eric256 ahh... now to wait for another compile and see if that works ;)
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14:27 eric256 ?eval sub x (@array) { shift @array}; x(1);
14:27 evalbot_7711 1
14:28 eric256 why does it call x?  shouldn't that mismatch the signature?
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14:29 autrijus it should. that is a bug.
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14:29 theorbtwo Probably the same bug as...
14:30 theorbtwo ?eval 1.shift
14:30 evalbot_7711 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
14:30 theorbtwo Oh.
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14:30 eric256 i fixed that one ;)
14:30 theorbtwo Oh, probably not.
14:30 theorbtwo OK then.
14:30 eric256 i was working on the other part....
14:30 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); print shift @x, " hello";
14:30 evalbot_7711 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
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14:30 eric256 i can make that work by adding  sub shift (@array) { shift @array }; but that makes 42.shift start working wrong agian ;)
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14:31 eric256 another oddity i found.
14:31 eric256 ?eval shift (1);
14:31 evalbot_7711 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
14:31 eric256 ?eval shift (1,);
14:31 evalbot_7711 1
14:31 eric256 ?eval shift (1,2);
14:31 evalbot_7711 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
14:31 eric256 middle one shouldn't work either, but it does
14:35 autrijus why not?
14:36 eric256 why would (1,) work when (1,2) does not? they should be identical shouldn't they?
14:37 wolverian autrijus, they're lists! they can't be shifted!
14:37 wolverian or mutated in any other way
14:38 autrijus ah. right.
14:38 autrijus ?eval shift(1,)
14:38 evalbot_7711 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
14:38 autrijus ?eval shift (1,)
14:38 evalbot_7711 1
14:38 autrijus autoenref
14:38 eric256 huh? what about
14:39 eric256 ?eval shift (1,2)
14:39 evalbot_7711 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
14:39 eric256 ?eval shift (1,2,)
14:39 evalbot_7711 Error: Can't modify constant item: VUndef
14:39 autrijus ?eval 1.shift
14:39 evalbot_7711 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&shift"
14:40 autrijus so (1,) evaluates to type List
14:40 autrijus autoenref into Array
14:40 autrijus shifts correctly
14:40 wolverian wow, that is headache
14:40 autrijus it is
14:40 autrijus not sure if it's worth it
14:40 eric256 but (1,2,) doesn't?
14:40 autrijus eric256: there is a bug on either side.
14:40 wolverian please p6l about it if you have the energy :)
14:40 autrijus yes :)
14:40 eric256 ahh.. i thought you were saying it was right. ;)
14:41 eric256 is there somewhere easy i can look for the sub (@a) accepting a scalar?
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14:43 autrijus nb: a scalar containing an array ref
14:44 eric256 what?
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14:44 eric256 i want to look in the source for a way to fix sub shift (@array) accepting a scalar.
14:45 robkinyon why?
14:45 wolverian eric256, it must accept arrayrefs, which are scalars
14:45 eric256 but it shouldn't accept "hello" or 1
14:45 Juerd wolverian: That's not entirely true.
14:45 Juerd wolverian: It can expect an Array, and thus provide Array context
14:45 Juerd This is a form of scalar context, but you can look at it in two different ways:
14:45 Juerd 1. arrays are auto-reffed
14:45 Juerd 2. arrayrefs are auto-dereffed
14:46 wolverian right
14:46 Juerd Which one occurs internally is irrelevant
14:46 wolverian that's what I meant
14:46 wolverian it has to accept a subcontext of scalar
14:46 wolverian is that true?
14:46 eric256 either way.    sub x (@array); x(1); should be an error right?
14:46 Juerd Yes
14:46 Juerd 1 can't coerce to an array.
14:46 wolverian argh. this container/value context dichotomy makes me cry
14:47 wolverian (as in, it hurts my head to talk about two kinds of contexts.)
14:47 Juerd wolverian: Yes, that is true, but not all too relevant for this discussion :)
14:47 wolverian true. sorry. :)
14:47 Juerd There aren't two kinds of context.
14:47 Juerd There are infinite.
14:47 eric256 yea i don't kow anything about containers and values :) i'm happy in my bliss. either way 1 isn't an array or list so i'm fine ;)
14:47 Juerd item and list context each have infinite subcontexts
14:48 wolverian Juerd, I meant two classes of context. erm. that's even worse way of putting it
14:48 wolverian Juerd, item/list versus type
14:48 Juerd eric256: 1 is a list in list context, much the same way anything is a list in list context
14:48 Juerd something is a list iff it is in list context.
14:48 Juerd There are no lists that aren't in list context
14:48 Juerd And there are no non-lists that are in list context
14:49 Juerd Well, elements of a list :)
14:49 Juerd wolverian: type contexts are subtypes of item/list
14:49 Juerd wolverian: Array context is item/Ref/Array
14:49 Juerd This hierarchy is pretty simple
14:49 wolverian hm. right.
14:50 Juerd There is item, with beneath it: Str, Num, Bool and Ref
14:50 Juerd And everything else is directly under Ref
14:50 Juerd List has the same substructure
14:50 Juerd Oh, and there is Scalar, which equals item but changes type.
14:51 Juerd Or you could see it as directly under item
14:51 Juerd As there's also Scalar list context
14:51 wolverian how does one specify list context?
14:51 wolverian *@foo?
14:51 Juerd Yes
14:52 wolverian okay.
14:52 Juerd Hence the alias "slurpy" context
14:52 wolverian sorry for being so thick about this.
14:52 Khisanth is that the left or the right?
14:52 Juerd This is in signatures only
14:52 Juerd Outside signatures, * is splat, which doesn't exactly equal providing list context.
14:52 wolverian hm. I thought assignment was unified somewhat with signatures, at some point
14:52 Juerd Also, I believe the "list" operator is weird, wrong, and I consider it non-existent.
14:53 wolverian my (*$foo) = @bar;
14:53 Juerd And, of course, containers provide list context to the RHS of the =
14:53 Juerd collection containers at least
14:53 Juerd wolverian: No, that's aliasing
14:53 Juerd wolverian: The := operator has a signature on its LHS, as the signature in a sub, but without parens.
14:53 wolverian does the * do anything there?
14:54 Khisanth then what are := and ::=?
14:54 wolverian Juerd, ah. okay.
14:54 Juerd Khisanth: For binding/aliasing
14:54 Khisanth * on the left side of an assignment retains it's p5 meaning?
14:54 Juerd No, typeglobs go away.
14:54 Juerd *$foo = @bar is a syntax error, afaik.
14:55 Khisanth sounds pretty darn similar
14:55 Juerd * is valid in signatures and sub calls (symmetrically, also the RHS of binding)
14:55 robkinyon eric256: wouldn't it be enough to ask "if ( $scalar does Array )" ?
14:55 Juerd robkinyon: The signature should fix this.
14:55 Juerd robkinyon: Not an explicit check
14:55 PerlJam Khisanth: * is always either multiplication or "flatten"
14:56 eric256 robkinyon....sure. but the scalar should never be passe din and that sub never called
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15:00 robkinyon so, there should be a shift( @a Array ) and a shift( $c Array ) ?
15:00 Juerd robkinyon: What is this syntax?
15:00 Juerd There should be a single shift(@a)
15:00 svnbot6 r7712 | juerd++ | more fears; markov++
15:00 eric256 wouldn't   shift (Array @a)  be redundant?
15:00 Juerd This handles: shift(@array), shift($arrayref), @array.shift and $arrayref.shift
15:01 Juerd Possibly it has modifiers like :n(5) to shift 5 at a time, but that's outside the scope of this
15:03 wolverian OT: why does (foo){1,3} only capture once in perl5?
15:03 wolverian rather, does perl6 do that too? :)
15:03 robkinyon oops
15:03 robkinyon i flipped the type and the variable. :_)
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15:06 eric256 ?eval sub x ($x) { say $x}; x(1); x (1,2,3,4); x(1,2,3,4);
15:06 evalbot_7712 1 1234 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&x"
15:07 eric256 ?eval sub x ($x) { say $x}; x(1);
15:07 evalbot_7712 1 bool::true
15:07 eric256 ?eval sub x ($x) { say $x}; x(1,2,3);
15:07 evalbot_7712 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&x"
15:07 eric256 so it does work the other way around. blah
15:07 Juerd wolverian: Because that's the only way to make sure you know beforehand which capture variables there will be.
15:07 Juerd wolverian: Count the left parens. Those are the $n numbers.
15:08 wolverian Juerd, right.
15:08 Juerd I know no way around this.
15:09 wolverian since $/ is a tree of matches anyway, it can just hold an arrayref
15:09 kolibrie wolverian: in Perl 6, all three values will be captured and put in an array ref
15:09 wolverian kolibrie, ah, like I assumed. thanks!
15:09 kolibrie :)
15:10 PerlJam wolverian: All quantifiers will capture into an array.
15:10 wolverian yay!
15:11 PerlJam (this week :)
15:11 wolverian that is much saner than perl5.
15:12 Juerd It's more useful
15:12 Juerd But imo, equally sane
15:13 wolverian hm. perhaps.
15:13 PerlJam Juerd: I don't know ... the perl5 behavior exposes an implementation detail to the user rather than doing something more useful.
15:13 PerlJam I guess that was the sanest thing to do though
15:14 wolverian TMTOWTBS (There's More Than One Way To Be Sane)
15:16 wolverian do rules have methods?
15:16 eric256 to their madness?
15:16 * eric256 couldn't resist
15:17 wolverian or: are named rules first class citizens outside rules?
15:19 wolverian Grammar.rule($string) or so.
15:22 PerlJam wolverian: perl6 continues to follow the principle of least surprise.
15:23 wolverian PerlJam, was that a yes or no? :)
15:24 PerlJam yes, but it would be spelt more like $string ~~ Grammar.rule  I think
15:24 eric256 hmmm. stubing shift doesn't seem to work at all
15:24 eric256 or my computer just dislikes me greatly ;)
15:25 PerlJam I don't know that it's been specced anywhere how the "subroutine form" of rules work.  
15:25 PerlJam Perhaps Grammar::rule($string,@args) ?
15:28 eric256 ?eval sub shift (@array) { shift @array }; sub shift ($s) { die };  my @x = (1..5); say shift @x, " hello";
15:28 evalbot_7712 1 hello bool::true
15:28 eric256 ?eval sub shift (@array) { shift @array }; sub shift ($s) { die };  my @x = (1..5); say shift @x, " hello"; shift 42;
15:28 evalbot_7712 1 hello Error: Died
15:28 theorbtwo ?eval rule r {42}; \&r
15:28 evalbot_7712 Error: Undeclared variable: "&r"
15:28 eric256 but dropping those two definitions into prelude.pm and marking them as 'is primitive' doesn't change anything at all.
15:30 eric256 btw in prelude.pm i marked them with * to put them global... even tried adding multi in front, it just doesn't like them
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15:31 eric256 ehh don't 'mind me...if you have pugs open on windows during compile it doesn't replace the existing pugs...good to know
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15:37 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); my @y = splice(@x,5)
15:37 eric256 did i do that? or coincedence?
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15:37 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); my @y = splice(@x,5);
15:37 evalbot_7713 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&splice"
15:38 eric256 ?eval my @x = (1..5); my @y = splice(@x);
15:38 evalbot_7713 [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ | * docs/quickref:
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |   * README: Mentioned new "fears".
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |   * unicode: Fixed the Unicode variant of ??!!.
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |   * fears: Extremely minor cosmetical fix.
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |   * data:
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |     * (42) is neither a list nor an array, but the Num 42.
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |     * (42,) and list 42 are one-element arrays.
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |     * ($foo,$bar) does not create new containers, while [$foo,$bar] does
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |       (also see t/data_types/lists.t and t/data_types/array_ref.t and several
15:39 svnbot6 r7713 | iblech++ |       p6l discussions linked in these tests).
15:40 svnbot6 r7714 | iblech++ | docs/quickref/data: More explanations WRT the constantness of (...,...) and
15:40 svnbot6 r7714 | iblech++ | [...,...]; also see t/operators/binding/arrays.t and related p6l discussions.
15:40 svnbot6 r7714 | iblech++ | (BTW, PIL2JS handles most (all?) of these things ((42) is not an array, the
15:40 svnbot6 r7714 | iblech++ | comma operator does not create new containers, but [...] does, etc.) correctly.
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15:41 theorbtwo ??!! has a unicode variant?
15:42 eric256 dunno. i'm confused on his (42,) list 42 notes. ;)
15:42 Khisanth list 42 creates an array? boy that sure is a misleading name ...
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15:44 theorbtwo Oh, it doesn't -- he added it to the abusive section.
15:44 theorbtwo Do we want to add ¢ to the top section, or is it too early?
15:44 PerlJam theorbtwo: release early, release often.
15:44 PerlJam (IOW, add it!)
15:45 eric256 abusive section?
15:47 eric256 ?eval (4,2).ref;
15:47 evalbot_7714 ::Array
15:47 eric256 ?eval list (4,2).ref;
15:47 evalbot_7714 ::Array
15:47 eric256 ?eval (list (4,2)).ref;
15:47 evalbot_7714 ::Array
15:47 * eric256 agrees with Khisanth....thats weird. ;)
15:48 eric256 ?eval (l4,).ref;
15:48 evalbot_7714 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&l4"
15:48 eric256 ?eval (4,).ref;
15:48 evalbot_7714 ::Array
15:48 theorbtwo eric256: There's a section at the top, unicode operators, then unicode ops in Set.pm, then things that we could use as unicode operators if we weren't evil.
15:48 eric256 ahh
15:48 mrborisguy so is there also a ::List type?
15:50 eric256 i'
15:50 * Limbic_Region adds his 6 cents to the "Perl 6 fears" thread
15:51 theorbtwo So, I wonderses...
15:51 svnbot6 r7715 | eric256++ | 'Fixed' shift and pop so that all tests pass.  Sort of a kludge in prelude.pm that i think needs fixed in the MMD at some point.  (@a) signature allows scalars to be passed in (even if they arn't refs).
15:54 theorbtwo Where does one find documentation on C-x 8 ... things for emacs?
15:55 theorbtwo C-x 8 gives me a no-such error on my xemacs...
15:55 sili has joined #perl6
15:56 Jooon theorbtwo: you could try C-h b for keybindings list and search for C-x 8 in that list
15:57 Jooon but it doesn't seem that helpful to me
15:57 evalbot_7714 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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15:58 eric256 ?eval shift 42;
15:58 evalbot_7715 Error: Cannot 'pop' scalar
15:58 eric256 aint pretty but it works. ;)
16:01 * eric256 finds that many of the trans tests were actualy broken, not the implementation ;)
16:03 evalbot_7715 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:03 svnbot6 r7716 | iblech++ | docs/quickref/data: More explanations WRT list context and slurpy signatures.
16:03 svnbot6 r7717 | eric256++ | trans.t - fixed tests.
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16:13 eric256 ?eval int Inf;
16:13 evalbot_7717 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697​894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477​322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416​622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302​219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342​462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239​947245938479716304835356329624224137216
16:13 eric256 has left
16:13 Khisanth oO
16:13 eric256 has joined #perl6
16:14 eric256 ?eval int Inf == Inf;
16:14 evalbot_7717 bool::true
16:14 xerox o_O
16:14 eric256 ?eval use Test; is (int Inf, Inf);
16:14 evalbot_7717 pugs: *** No compatible subroutine found: "&use"     at Prelude.pm line 61, column 30-59
16:14 eric256 figures. lol
16:15 xerox ?eval Inf
16:15 evalbot_7717 Inf
16:15 eric256 is does an eq tests instead of ==
16:15 eric256 ?eval int Inf eq Inf;
16:15 evalbot_7717 bool::false
16:15 eric256 of course that fails
16:18 integral ?eval log(int Inf) / log(2);
16:18 evalbot_7717 Inf
16:18 integral ?eval my $a = int Inf; $a
16:18 evalbot_7717 \17976931348623159077293051907890247336179769​789423065727343008115773267580550096313270847​732240753602112011387987139335765878976881441​662249284743063947412437776789342486548527630​221960124609411945308295208500576883815068234​246288147391311054082723716335051068458629823​9947245938479716304835356329624224137216
16:18 integral ?eval my $a = int Inf; log($a) / log(2)
16:18 evalbot_7717 Inf
16:19 integral ?eval my $a = int Inf; log(+$a) / log(2)
16:19 evalbot_7717 Inf
16:19 integral ?eval log(17976931348623159077293051907890247336179​769789423065727343008115773267580550096313270​847732240753602112011387987139335765878976881​441662249284743063947412437776789342486548527​630221960124609411945308295208500576883815068​234246288147391311054082723716335051068458629​8239947245938479716304835356329624224137216) / log(2)
16:19 evalbot_7717 Inf
16:19 integral *sigh*
16:19 eric256 what?
16:20 integral I was hoping log wouldn't overflow
16:20 eric256 ahh
16:20 eric256 ?eval int Inf == 'Inf'
16:20 evalbot_7717 bool::false
16:20 eric256 ?eval int Inf eq 'Inf'
16:20 evalbot_7717 bool::false
16:20 eric256 thats just a dumb test anyway...i can't see anyway that would be usefull
16:21 eric256 ?eval '' ~ Inf
16:21 evalbot_7717 "Inf"
16:21 theorbtwo ?eval my $a=int Inf; my $b=0; $b++ while ($a/=2); $b;
16:21 eric256 i mean that would make the string "Inf" magicaly....seems ludicrous
16:22 evalbot_7717 (no output)
16:22 theorbtwo ?eval my $a=int Inf; my $b=0; $b++ while ($a>>=1); $b;
16:22 evalbot_7717 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting word character, "::", term postfix, operator or ")"
16:22 theorbtwo ?eval my $a=int Inf; my $b=0; $b++ while ($a >>= 1); $b;
16:22 evalbot_7717 Error:  unexpected ">" expecting operator or ")"
16:22 theorbtwo Did shift-right change?
16:22 Khisanth maybe unimplemented :)
16:24 theorbtwo ?eval my $a=int Inf; my $b=0; $b++ while ($a +>= 1); $b;
16:24 evalbot_7717 Error: Can't use readline() or getc() in safemode.
16:24 theorbtwo (Yes, it did change... but WTF?)
16:24 theorbtwo ?eval $x = 2; $x +>= 1;
16:24 evalbot_7717 Can't exec "./pugs": Permission denied at examples/network/evalbot//evalhelper.p5 line 46.
16:24 theorbtwo WTF?
16:25 evalbot_7717 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
16:25 xerox What is +>= ?
16:25 evalbot_7718 has joined #perl6
16:25 svnbot6 r7718 | eric256++ | Fixed infinitiy tests to use cmp_ok and == instead of eq.  This seemed more logical than the current string comparisons.
16:25 theorbtwo Shift-right in-place.
16:27 theorbtwo ?eval $x = 2; $x +>= 1;
16:27 evalbot_7718 Error: Undeclared variable: "$x"
16:27 theorbtwo ?eval my $x = 2; $x +>= 1;
16:27 evalbot_7718 Error: Can't use readline() or getc() in safemode.
16:27 theorbtwo Hm.
16:27 theorbtwo Borken.
16:28 xerox pugs> $x +>= 1;
16:28 xerox *** cannot cast from VInt 1 to Handle (VHandle)
16:28 xerox    at <interactive> line 1, column 1-9
16:28 xerox (r7636)
16:29 theorbtwo If it was fixed in r7636, why am I seeing it now?
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16:44 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf
16:44 evalbot_7718 1.0
16:46 eric256 ?eval .9**Inf
16:46 evalbot_7718 0.0
16:46 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf
16:46 evalbot_7718 1.0
16:47 eric256 ?eval 1.1 **Inf
16:47 evalbot_7718 Inf
16:47 eric256 ?eval 1.1**Inf
16:47 evalbot_7718 Inf
16:47 eric256 if a test is just plain wrong?  wadda do? lol
16:47 theorbtwo Patch the test so that it's right?
16:48 eric256 this test claims 1**Inf is NaN everywhere except OSX where it is 1... but that doesn't seem to be true
16:48 theorbtwo More to the point, it doesn't make sense.
16:48 eric256 exactly
16:48 eric256 so just go ahead and fix it?
16:48 theorbtwo Yep.
16:49 * eric256 is finding that lots of tests are failing because the tests are just plain wrong. lol
16:49 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf == 1;
16:49 evalbot_7718 bool::true
16:50 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf eq NaN;
16:50 evalbot_7718 bool::false
16:50 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf eq 'NaN';
16:50 evalbot_7718 bool::false
16:50 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf ~ " Test"
16:50 evalbot_7718 "1 Test"
16:50 eric256 hmm. the is test failes.
16:53 eric256 okay..on my home computer 1**Inf does equal NaN...but thats a bug
16:53 eric256 gotta be. right?
16:56 brother You saying prel6 woldn't have transfinite ordinals
16:56 Khisanth where is a mathematician when you need one? :)
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17:00 PerlJam eric256: 1**Inf == 1
17:00 eric256 hmmm according to a math sie 1**Inf is indeterminate.  seems dumb though
17:00 eric256 lol
17:01 PerlJam well the math site iw WRONG!  :)
17:01 PerlJam s/iw/is/
17:01 brother my $e = Inf; $e **= $e for (1 .. Inf); say $e
17:01 PerlJam brother: that should say Inf forever
17:01 xerox ?eval 0/0
17:01 evalbot_7718 Error: Illegal division by zero
17:02 brother It should only say one thing
17:02 eric256 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Indeterminate.html
17:02 xerox ?eval Inf / Inf
17:02 evalbot_7718 NaN
17:02 Limbic_Region . o O ( what is a legal division by zero? )
17:02 xerox Limbic_Region: economics :P
17:02 eric256 ?eval 0 * Inf
17:02 evalbot_7718 NaN
17:02 eric256 ?eval 0 / 0
17:02 evalbot_7718 Error: Illegal division by zero
17:02 eric256 ?eval Inf - Inf
17:02 evalbot_7718 NaN
17:02 eric256 ?eval 0**0;
17:02 evalbot_7718 1/1
17:03 xerox !
17:03 eric256 thast suppose to be NaN too. lol
17:03 xerox Yep.
17:03 eric256 ?eval Inf**0
17:03 evalbot_7718 1.0
17:03 eric256 and that too
17:03 xerox err.
17:03 eric256 ?eval 1**Inf;
17:03 evalbot_7718 1.0
17:04 * eric256 wonders where these test should go. ;)
17:05 brother blame it on ghc
17:05 brother t/builtin/math/exp.t
17:05 brother or infinity.t
17:06 Juerd PerlJam: Given the time Perl 5 was made in, I do not think "exposing implementation" was a bad thing. It meant performance and learnability, and Perl 5 was already hiding more than most other languages.
17:06 svnbot6 r7719 | eric256++ | arth.t Uncommeted two tests that work, and a third that is still debatable.  1**Inf == ??
17:06 evalbot_7718 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:06 Juerd eric256: If you don't know where to put a test, dunnowhere.t ;)
17:06 evalbot_7719 has joined #perl6
17:06 Juerd eric256: "# I don't know where to put these. Please move them to the appropriate spots."
17:07 eric256 juerd works for me ;)
17:07 Juerd eric256: If this allows you to continue where otherwise you need to wait, don't worry about delegating some work.
17:07 eric256 just in the base \t directory?
17:07 Juerd eric256: Someone will eventually step up and put them in the right place. Just keep the tests pure enough (or in blocks) so they can be moved easily.
17:07 Juerd Sure.
17:08 Limbic_Region there is the t/builtins/math directory though
17:08 Limbic_Region as brother pointed out
17:08 eric256 yea i like his place
17:08 Juerd Whose place? :)
17:09 Limbic_Region brother's
17:09 mrborisguy ?eval Inf > Inf
17:09 evalbot_7719 bool::false
17:09 Juerd Oh, I had overlooked that
17:09 xerox eric256: 1^Inf is 1 in Mathematica
17:10 Limbic_Region Juerd - I didn't modify fears file as it seemed like you were doing consolidation
17:10 Juerd ?eval 1**Inf
17:10 evalbot_7719 1.0
17:10 Juerd Limbic_Region: What's consolidation? :)
17:10 mrborisguy xerox: that makes sense.  1^Inf should be 1
17:10 * Limbic_Region has a hard time knowing when Juerd is serious or not
17:11 Juerd Limbic_Region: I'm serious
17:11 Juerd I almost always am
17:11 svnbot6 r7720 | iblech++ | t/builtins/math/infinity.t: Made clearer whether numification (==) or
17:11 svnbot6 r7720 | iblech++ | stringification (eq) is tested, using (Perl 6)++'s
17:11 svnbot6 r7720 | iblech++ | &infix:<operator_references>. (XXX: should &Test::is be changed to test with
17:11 svnbot6 r7720 | iblech++ | eqv?)
17:11 mrborisguy ?eval 2*Inf > Inf
17:11 evalbot_7719 bool::false
17:11 mrborisguy ?eval Inf + 1 > Inf
17:11 evalbot_7719 bool::false
17:11 PerlJam Limbic_Region: re your complaint.  I don't think that can ever be truly "fixed" as most of the time questions on design have no easy answer.
17:11 Limbic_Region consolidation in this context means taking input from various sources, finding commonalities and boiling it down to essentials
17:11 mrborisguy ?eval (Inf/Inf, Inf-Inf)
17:12 evalbot_7719 (NaN, NaN)
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17:12 Limbic_Region PerlJam - wasn't asking for it to be fixed.
17:12 evalbot_7720 has joined #perl6
17:12 Juerd Limbic_Region: I'm doing something like that. If two fears are related but different, I keep them as two, though.
17:12 Juerd Limbic_Region: The plan is to have answers ready in a few months.
17:12 r0nny i got a problem with classes
17:12 Juerd Limbic_Region: Answers that we are all aware of, so the community can help people overcome their fears by being consistent with eachother. The single-voice principle.
17:12 r0nny i want to do class foo { Str $var; };
17:12 Limbic_Region but when I can't get a simple answer on will .chars return a count in 1 context and the actual chars in another - what motivation do I have to keep pursuing the answer so that I can write tests for it?
17:13 PerlJam Juerd: The fears and responses would make a good article for perl.com  :)
17:13 * Limbic_Region agrees
17:13 Juerd PerlJam: There's already been one like it, but not based on a wide collection like this one.
17:13 Limbic_Region though I still think we need to have someplace kept up to date
17:13 Limbic_Region http://dev.perl.org/perl6 says to read the latest summary to get caught up on what is new
17:13 Limbic_Region that IMO, is BS
17:14 Juerd Limbic_Region: Edit away, by the way. If something is missing, or there is a sillier/more dramatic way to put something without making the sentences long or complex, please do help out.
17:14 larsen has joined #perl6
17:14 PerlJam r0nny: you're missing a "has" or a "my" or an "our" or a "state"
17:14 Limbic_Region Juerd - did you have any problems with the 6 I listed?
17:14 Juerd Limbic_Region: I know of no project where something new is created, where documentation is kept up to date during the early stages of development.
17:14 PerlJam r0nny: Without more context, I'm not sure which you wanted.
17:14 Juerd Limbic_Region: I think this is very annoying, BUT natural.
17:15 Juerd Limbic_Region: If I didn't change them, then I didn't.
17:15 Limbic_Region Juerd - after 5 years, I don't buy that early stages of development line
17:15 Limbic_Region Juerd - I didn't change the file, I only replied to your email
17:15 Limbic_Region I will add the 6 to the file now
17:16 r0nny PerlJam: just a simple class wit 2 members
17:16 Juerd Limbic_Region: Ah, then I have just added them
17:16 r0nny PerlJam: but it doesnt like the { after class <namr>
17:16 PerlJam r0nny: then you probably want to use "has"
17:16 svnbot6 r7721 | eric256++ | NaN.t added some test i didn't see anywhere else for Infinity and NaN results.
17:16 svnbot6 r7722 | juerd++ | more fear
17:16 * Limbic_Region will resync
17:16 Juerd Limbic_Region: In that case: yes, but the problems I have with them are very minor.
17:16 Limbic_Region ok
17:17 Juerd Limbic_Region: It involves structure of the sentences. I want everything to be within 80 characters, and explanations to not be there.
17:17 Juerd Just the raw fear.
17:17 Limbic_Region getting back to the fear/complaint email for a sec
17:17 Juerd When the fear is explained or justified, it's not as silly looking anymore.
17:17 PerlJam r0nny: class foo { has Str $name; }
17:17 Juerd This may be unfair, but it's politics anyway :P
17:17 Limbic_Region I find the current process uninviting to contribute
17:17 evalbot_7720 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
17:17 Juerd Which current process?
17:18 Juerd There are many parallel processes
17:18 Limbic_Region The list
17:18 PerlJam Juerd: the discussions that lead no where on p6l
17:18 evalbot_7722 has joined #perl6
17:18 Limbic_Region where is there a publicly accessable to-do list
17:18 Juerd Limbic_Region: I haven't been clear, and that is entirely my fault
17:18 Limbic_Region where is there a publicly accessible state of the design documents
17:18 Juerd Limbic_Region: But so far, people do seem to contribute fears... :)
17:19 Limbic_Region where is there a publicly accessisble (and up to date) faq
17:19 PerlJam Limbic_Region: sounds like you've got an email to p6l to write  ;)
17:19 Limbic_Region Juerd - I sent 2 separate emails for that reasons
17:19 Limbic_Region the first just listed the fears with a short commentary
17:19 Juerd There are indeed too many things that do exist, but are kept privately
17:19 Limbic_Region the other was a complaint which was resurfaced in me by your thread
17:19 Juerd Which doesn't work with 2005's wiki style development
17:20 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I have already written and sent it
17:20 Limbic_Region it was lost as a tangent in one of those long threads that never ended up resolving anything
17:20 Juerd For example, "that's in my local copy of S\d\d" should not have to pop up so often, or even once.
17:20 Juerd Local copy? Surely Larry knows how to publish it?
17:21 Limbic_Region I tried to frameout the missing pieces of the design docs so everyone would know what needs to be done but even that didn't go anywhere
17:21 Limbic_Region the reference document I used I was told was outdated
17:21 Limbic_Region and that the current work existed in the collective minds of @larry
17:22 PerlJam It's been my experience that at least pmichaud and lwall don't really "release early and often".  They queue up stuff in their personal workspace and then release when there's something reasonably complete.
17:23 Limbic_Region well - then the most amount of customer feedback is going to happen on only that which has been released
17:24 Limbic_Region it is hard to offer insight, ask questions, and implement tests for things we don't know about
17:24 Limbic_Region the framework is a means for everyone to know what is left to be done
17:25 Limbic_Region anyway - I have vented
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17:31 eric256 how do you tell that something is  marked with an "is *" ?
17:31 eric256 ie .. $fh is chomped; ?
17:32 Limbic_Region you mean after the fact?
17:32 eric256 yea
17:32 Limbic_Region something like my @traits = $foo.traits;
17:32 Limbic_Region dunno
17:32 eric256 except thats not implemented yet? right? lol.  can't do $x does chomped?
17:32 Limbic_Region good question though
17:32 eric256 bastard langauge
17:33 Limbic_Region well - I think asking on a case by case basis is just as beneficial as getting a list
17:33 Limbic_Region *shrug* - ask the list and see if you get a clear straight forward answer
17:33 eric256 lol
17:34 eric256 i just wants something that works in pugs. ;)
17:34 * eric256 is off to investigate in source
17:38 brother ?eval int(Inf)
17:38 evalbot_7722 179769313486231590772930519078902473361797697​894230657273430081157732675805500963132708477​322407536021120113879871393357658789768814416​622492847430639474124377767893424865485276302​219601246094119453082952085005768838150682342​462881473913110540827237163350510684586298239​947245938479716304835356329624224137216
17:38 brother heh
17:39 Limbic_Region ?eval Inf ** ( 1 / Inf )
17:39 evalbot_7722 1.0
17:40 Limbic_Region ?eval Inf ** ( 1 / 2 ** 128 )
17:40 evalbot_7722 Inf
17:40 eric256 ?eval my $x is dumb; print $x.attrs;
17:40 evalbot_7722 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&attrs"
17:40 r0nny re
17:44 eric256 hmm... from my limited view it looks like traits arn't realy stored even...just parsed and passed along.../me goes looking for traits tests
17:47 Limbic_Region well - if you do end up asking the list, ask for something all encompassing for traits, attributes, do-hickies, and whatcha-ma-callits
17:48 eric256 it appears that traits aren't well defined in tests or in syn's ;) joy
17:48 * eric256 can understand how people quickly loose energy and momentum. ;)
17:49 Limbic_Region it isn't all doom and gloom
17:50 eric256 no
17:50 eric256 just hard to keep momentum with so many things poorly defined ;)
17:50 eric256 i have a hard enough time that i don't need the extra question of...is this even how its suppose to work? ;)
17:50 PerlJam A good strategy is to go with your best guess as if it were fact.
17:51 eric256 maybe i could just work on linking the tests to the documentation.  i know there was an effort for that..who was leading that effort?
17:51 Limbic_Region my characterization of the situation would be that there isn't much of the design so written in stone that you can implement without fear of having to re-write it
17:51 eric256 maybe web based access to test with cross links to documentation could help issues?
17:51 Limbic_Region a substantial amount is defined but is still ambigous as you peel back the layers
17:51 Limbic_Region and there is an unknown amount of stuff that isn't defined at all
17:51 eric256 l~r exactly ;)
17:52 Limbic_Region when things don't move at the pace people want the mantra "so volunteer" is echo'd without fail
17:52 Limbic_Region the problem is that there isn't a list of things (that I know of ) that someone can go to
17:53 eric256 true. and i have no fear of my stuff being rewritten, in fact i hope most of my haskell is..i like get it done now, then  fix later. ;)
17:53 Limbic_Region they have to learn the design over lots of emails cause the information isn't in sync with the documents
17:53 eric256 the list of test..but its hard to tell if the tests are wrong, bad, or truly broken. lol
17:53 Limbic_Region and when someone does try to venture out into unknown territory to help frame stuff in they find that there isn't anyway to move forward
17:54 Limbic_Region except by following the pace of @larry
17:58 robkinyon autrijus: ping
17:59 eric256 if anyone remembers who is cross referencing testing and documentation (Syn) let me know ;)
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18:00 kolibrie eric256: I think that's in t/README
18:02 eric256 thanks. found it
18:04 r0nny is there a data type for references/pointrtd
18:05 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; say ref $ref;
18:05 evalbot_7722 Array bool::true
18:06 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; ref $ref;
18:06 evalbot_7722 ::Array
18:06 Limbic_Region hmmm
18:06 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; $ref.isa;
18:06 evalbot_7722 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&isa"
18:06 Limbic_Region r0nny - why do you ask?
18:07 Limbic_Region I think I know what you are getting at but I am not positive
18:07 Limbic_Region in p5, references are of the scalar data type
18:07 Limbic_Region for most intents and purposes, that doesn't change
18:10 Juerd References have to be scalars
18:10 Juerd Scalars are Perl's one-item datatype
18:12 Limbic_Region Juerd - right but I am not sure that is the question being asked
18:12 Limbic_Region it is hard to tell but it might be intepreted as "is there a way to tell the difference between a reference and a regular scalar value"
18:13 Limbic_Region ref is 1 way to answer that question
18:13 Limbic_Region but it is known to be b0rk in a lot of ways
18:13 Limbic_Region so that's why I was asking the leading question WRT to p6
18:13 Limbic_Region but as r0nny didn't respond, I guess it doesn't matter
18:20 Juerd Limbic_Region: I was only explaining, adding to what you said.
18:20 Limbic_Region oh - okie dokie
18:20 Limbic_Region forgive me for being a bit anal today - I am in the fog of a head cold
18:20 Juerd IIRC, ref() in Perl 6 will be quite boolean.
18:21 Limbic_Region well - with real objects I hope it will be possible to tell the difference between a reference to a hash 'HASH' and one blessed into a class called HASH
18:21 Limbic_Region ;-)
18:21 Juerd And there is of course $foo.isa(Ref)
18:22 * Limbic_Region thought he tried that
18:22 Juerd What are "real objects"?
18:22 Limbic_Region Juerd - the smiley at the end was a bit toungue in cheek
18:22 Juerd Still, what are real objects?
18:22 Juerd Perl 6 objects will still be decorated references...
18:22 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; $ref.isa(Ref)
18:22 evalbot_7722 bool::false
18:23 Juerd We're just mostly silent about that, because blessed references appear to scare people off.
18:23 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; $ref.isa(Array)
18:23 evalbot_7722 bool::true
18:23 Limbic_Region ?eval my @foo = 1..4; my $ref = \@foo; $ref.isa(Asdf)
18:23 evalbot_7722 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&Asdf"
18:23 Limbic_Region hmmm
18:23 Juerd <cent>Asdf ;)
18:24 Limbic_Region why would $ref.isa(Ref) be false and ref.isa(Array) be true?
18:24 Juerd Ref isn't in the object class hierarchy
18:25 Juerd (IMO, all these hierachies should somehow be made to be one)
18:25 * Aankhen`` is going out of town in a few hours; be back on the 5th.
18:25 Aankhen`` Be seeing y'all.
18:25 Juerd Aankhen``: Havefun
18:25 Aankhen`` has quit IRC ("I swear to drunk I ain't God [Time wasted online: 3hrs 57mins 15secs]")
18:25 Limbic_Region IMO, "path of least suprise" was violated there ;-)
18:28 svnbot6 r7723 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
18:28 svnbot6 r7723 | iblech++ | * docs/quickref/unicode: Put the ^K digraph sequences back and added some
18:28 svnbot6 r7723 | iblech++ |   more (unfortunately, some chars are not ^Kable -- you have to resort to ^V u 1234).
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18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ | docs/quickref/:
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ | * fears: "perl6 will be far too slow", separate compilation
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ | * data: Added section about references -- when do they auto-dereference? When
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ |   is $ref ~~ Ref true? Do arrayrefs flatten in list context?
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ |   (Also see t/var/autoderef.t, t/var/autoref.t,
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ |   t/var/refs_point_to_containers.t, t/var/assigning_refs.t, and related p6l
18:47 svnbot6 r7724 | iblech++ |   discussions (see the tests for links)).
18:48 stevan Juerd: Perl 6 objects wont be just decorated Refs anymore actually
18:48 stevan well, they can be
18:48 stevan but we have the opaque instance type now
18:49 stevan and IIRC we have a Ref type
18:49 stevan which is a reference to ...
18:50 stevan Limbic_Region: re: "$ref.isa(Ref) be false and ref.isa(Array) be true"
18:50 stevan I think that is Pugs being weird,.. and not Perl 6
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18:50 Limbic_Region stevan thanks
18:51 stevan Limbic_Region: also remember that my $array_ref = @array; is how we make refs,.. not \
18:51 Limbic_Region and I didn't answer Juerd's question WRT "real object" because we haven't drawn a black and white line
18:51 Limbic_Region all we have done is move the gray area around
18:51 stevan Limbic_Region: well what a "real object" is, is not always the same from language to language
18:51 Limbic_Region stevan - was done explicitly that way for the benefit of the p5 to p6 folks
18:52 Limbic_Region stevan - I was self-referencing
18:52 Limbic_Region errr - rather I was distinguishing between the shoe-horned in objects of p5 in comparison to the native data type in p6
18:53 * Limbic_Region sneezes, gets confused, and shuts up
18:53 * stevan hands Limbic_Region  a tissue
18:54 stevan autrijus: ping
18:55 Juerd stevan: Then my information is incorrect.
18:55 stevan Juerd: where are you getting it?
18:55 Juerd stevan: \ is still available if you want to explicitly reference.
18:56 Juerd stevan: memory.
18:56 stevan A12 talks about opaque instance types
18:56 Juerd That some things evaluate to references in scalar context does not mean the "old" way is incorrect.
18:56 Juerd In fact, I think that in many cases, it may be very good code documentation.
18:57 stevan Juerd: I like ti myself too,.. I just assumed it went away
18:59 stevan I think Ref will be a boxed type as well,.. although that stuff is all fuzzy (I am attempting to start a discussion to clarify that on p6c, but no takers so far)
19:01 robkinyon Ref will have to be boxed, won't it?
19:02 stevan yup
19:02 stevan but ref will be the unboxed version
19:02 robkinyon what on earth can be unboxed about a ref?
19:02 stevan unboxed stuff is really just for optimization (at least to the best of my understanding0
19:03 robkinyon so, it's stuck being a long* ?
19:03 stevan if the runtime is in C :P
19:03 robkinyon (or whatever sPASM type is a pointer)
19:03 stevan if the runtime is in Parrot :)
19:04 stevan it could be a Javascript class called Perl6.Ref too
19:04 stevan the unboxed type will just be the internal runtime type exposed to the p6 user-land
19:04 stevan no frills
19:05 eric256 where can i check out an uptodate copy of the SAE? "preferrably the repository that the official copies are in"
19:05 eric256 or is there such a thing?
19:06 stevan svn.perl.org somewhere,.. but Perl6::Bible is keep reasonably up to date IIRC
19:11 eric256 last update to svn.perl.org was 4 months ago...doesn't seem to promissing
19:13 stevan maybe not then...
19:13 stevan I think perl6::Bible is the best bet
19:13 stevan it was recently updated too (i think)
19:15 eric256 kinda need an repository..i think. maybe not. but i was hoping there was one true source.../me now worries a bit. ;)
19:16 eric256 i'll stick with the svn.perl.org one for now. thanks
19:16 stevan eric256: there is a repository, I may be wrong on the location
19:16 eric256 i found other docs pointing to that one too
19:16 stevan no need to worry
19:17 * stevan wonders if Juerd's "fears" are maybe not a healthy a thing for the process right now
19:18 eric256 lol
19:18 stevan not that I dont think that getting these feelings out in the open is cathardic
19:19 stevan but sometimes negativity can spread like a virus, and even when that was not the original intention
19:20 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl/~er​ic256/test/t/var/temp.html
19:20 eric256 aint pretty yet.  but i think graphic access to tests + linking to synopsis could be nice. ;)  maybe i'll work in some searching etc...who knows
19:21 stevan eric256: we had something like this in the early days
19:21 stevan not sure what happened to it
19:21 PerlJam stevan: the negativity is already there.
19:21 stevan PerlJam: I know
19:21 Limbic_Region eric256 - I can find the exact location of the repository if you want
19:21 eric256 yea it was a script in util...just going to polish it up and keep a working copy up..maybe after a bit i'll get test.pugscode.org pointed to it ;)
19:21 stevan eric256: nice :)
19:21 eric256 L~R that would be nice.
19:22 Limbic_Region pmichaud mentioned it in my post about needing the rest of the unfinished stuff framed
19:22 eric256 it would be cool to link passing/failing to it...but i'm not sure how possible that is
19:22 PerlJam I think Juerd's fears document makes a good rallying point for all of the "neagtive energy" surrounding parrot/perl6 and by answering them maybe we can channel the negativity into something positive
19:23 Juerd Thanks. That was exactly my intention
19:23 Limbic_Region http://svn.perl.org/perl6/doc/trunk
19:23 stevan PerlJam: I hope that is how it works
19:23 Limbic_Region if you are interested in the thread - it was "State of the Design Documents"
19:23 Juerd I've written some responses already. My greatest fear is that those aren't well enough. Please proof read and change where your skills are better than mine!
19:23 mrborisguy eric256: are you changing something in the test headers then?
19:23 mrborisguy some sort of pod or comment?
19:24 Juerd stevan: They may not be healthy right now. It all depends on how they are used.
19:24 svnbot6 r7725 | juerd++ | Some responses and pointers
19:24 stevan Juerd: exactly :)
19:24 mrborisguy eric256: I can maybe help by starting to find and change some of those
19:24 Juerd stevan: But isn't this true for every single commit that is done?
19:24 * stevan goes to read Juerd's responses
19:24 Juerd There is a lot of Perl 6 FUD that is entirely unnecessary
19:25 stevan FUD?
19:25 Juerd I think we need to get rid of most of it BEFORE we even get close to the release date.
19:25 Juerd stevan: fear, uncertainty and doubt.
19:25 stevan ah
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19:25 Juerd stevan: It's a marketing technique.
19:25 stevan I think a release might be the best cure for that
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19:25 Limbic_Region Juerd - a lot of the FUD wasn't FUD at one time
19:25 Juerd Limbic_Region: That certainly is true.
19:26 Juerd Limbic_Region: Still, at this point it is.
19:26 Limbic_Region people say stuff about p6 which at the time is true - it changes, but as there is no single place to get current - it spreads
19:26 stevan Juerd: I think the FUD is pretty deeply ingrained,..
19:26 stevan I think the best FUD clear-er of late has been Pugs
19:26 Juerd Yes, it certainly is
19:26 stevan prior to Pugs most people just assumed it was and would always be vaporware
19:26 Juerd But that's mostly the "it will never be released" FUD
19:27 PerlJam Juerd: I have a fear that I'm not sure quite fits into your document:  I won't be able to lookup all these fancy operators in any reference.  (books will be poorly indexed and online resources aren't punctuation friendly)
19:27 stevan PerlJam: we will need to re-implement the web in p6 then ;)
19:27 Limbic_Region PerlJam - like a wizard type search engine?
19:27 Juerd PerlJam: That's not new for Perl 6 :)
19:27 Limbic_Region how do I interleave 2 arrays? and get the zip operator spit out as a possible answer?
19:27 Juerd PerlJam: The solution is to have a table of operators in the index.
19:28 * Limbic_Region disagrees with Juerd's solution
19:28 Juerd PerlJam: We need to (NEED TO) create our own online resources
19:28 Limbic_Region how is having a list of possible operators going to help me find the one that does what I want
19:28 Juerd PerlJam: Google will not cut it and has been reluctant to add any punctuation to the list of characters that can be found
19:28 Limbic_Region If I knew what I wanted I wouldn't be asking
19:29 Juerd Limbic_Region: There are several forms of documentation
19:29 * stevan searches for "that sqwigly thing with the dots" and gets 0 results back
19:29 Juerd Limbic_Region: The most important is not "I want this, how do I do it?", but "What the hell does this thing mean?"
19:29 Juerd Limbic_Region: A cookbook has an entirely different structure, of course.
19:29 * PerlJam really really really likes the answer to "FEAR: My Perl knowledge will be useless!"
19:29 stevan knowing what a character looks like, and what it is called are 2 different things
19:30 Juerd PerlJam: Good to know :)
19:30 Juerd stevan: Who cares, really
19:30 stevan Juerd: where are the fears?
19:30 Juerd stevan: # has 1001 names, and that has only been a source of fun :)
19:30 stevan ah
19:30 Limbic_Region docs/quickrefs
19:30 stevan true
19:31 Juerd stevan: pugs/docs/quickref/fears
19:31 stevan Limbic_Region: thanks
19:31 Juerd Quickref may not be the right place, but for now, it's as good a place as any
19:31 Juerd It was a somewhat different document at first (never commited)
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19:34 stevan Juerd++ # nice responses
19:34 * stevan feels better now
19:34 Juerd Yay :)
19:34 Juerd Please help add them
19:34 Juerd And help more people feel better
19:35 stevan oh no,.. I can only scare people with metamodels :)
19:35 Juerd hehe
19:38 PerlJam stevan: /me looks at the metamodel ... but ... but ... where are my objects?  ;)
19:40 stevan PerlJam: :)
19:40 Juerd /Who dares to object to the metamodel?/
19:40 PerlJam Juerd++
19:42 robkinyon You know what my biggest P6 fear is?
19:42 robkinyon It's the lack of definitive leadership
19:43 robkinyon There's no place that says "This is the decision, here's the references, and that's that. Bring it up only if you have a truly compelling reason not answered in those references."
19:43 Limbic_Region robkinyon - I tried to figure out how to say that myself as it is something I have heard repeatedly
19:43 robkinyon I can't bring it up, though
19:43 * stevan elects robkinyon President of Perl 6
19:43 Limbic_Region but I see it as a root cause of a lot of other fears
19:44 stevan I will bring that up
19:44 Juerd That's brave.
19:44 * stevan doesn't give  shit,.. he is crazy man.. crazy
19:44 * Limbic_Region wonders why robkinyon can't bring it up?
19:44 PerlJam robkinyon: The Synopses are reference-like.  Isn't that good enough?
19:44 stevan Limbic_Region: robkinyon has a wife and kids to support ;P
19:44 eric256 perljam...not if they arn't up to date
19:44 robkinyon PerlJam: No, given that the SAE are out-of-date
19:44 stevan I think it is a reasonable thing to say
19:44 Limbic_Region fwiw - the fears I listed aren't necessarily one's that I have
19:45 Juerd Limbic_Region: That's good :)
19:45 Limbic_Region just one's that I have heard in various forums in my pursuit of p6 advocation
19:45 stevan its been what,.. 4+ years,.. a freeze on *something* is probably long overdue
19:45 Juerd Limbic_Region: I started with those I remembered, and then visited IRC to collect more
19:45 PerlJam robkinyon: the A&E aren't meant to be kept up-to-date, just the S.
19:45 robkinyon PerlJam: none are up-to-date
19:46 robkinyon Here's the thing - there needs to be a freeze list
19:46 Juerd PerlJam: That's something that should be made very, very clear and currently isn't at all.
19:46 stevan accoring to $Larry, A12 is for entertainment purposes only
19:46 robkinyon stuff that is going to be in P6, end of story
19:46 Limbic_Region PerlJam - I bet you ask two different heads in @larry and you will get 2 different answers on that
19:46 * stevan volunteers robkinyon for that job ;)
19:46 eric256 is there a general way to split a path into its directories?  or just use split "/|\" ? which looks cool but seems evil
19:46 * robkinyon wonders if stevan ever wants him to do any $work
19:46 Limbic_Region pmichaud updates the As quite a bit to keep them in sync with the Ss
19:46 Juerd eric256: Cough.
19:47 Juerd eric256: That looks like PHP
19:47 PerlJam Limbic_Region: I bet I won't. I've only talked much to 4 @larry (lwall, dconway, pmichaud, and chromatic) and all give the same answer
19:47 Limbic_Region even after the decision was made to expand the scope of S
19:47 Juerd eric256: split takes a regex.
19:47 * robkinyon prefers split "\|/" - it looks cooler
19:47 Juerd eric256: Regexes are in //, not ""
19:47 eric256 it wasn't code..just the idea... working on this test to pod script and it has catdir....but where do i find the reverse of that?
19:47 Juerd Also \" is escaping the "
19:48 robkinyon So, is it /\|\// ?
19:48 gaal Juerd: you can give a string to split (in p5); it is interpreted as a regexp.
19:48 robkinyon or /\/|\\/ ?
19:48 eric256 juerd...chill. wasn't code.. but it got the point accross...you guys need to take a deep breath. lol
19:48 robkinyon or /\\|\// ? :-)
19:48 Juerd gaal: Unless it is " ", I know this.
19:48 gaal good.
19:49 eric256 i'm looking at the modules it uses but none seem to even have a catdir function ...
19:49 eric256 File::Spec::Functions does have themm...odd name for the module.  seems like it should be getting info about the file. anyway
19:53 eric256 hmmm....now to use an array to travel down a hashref...never done that before
19:53 PerlJam "travel down"?
19:54 eric256 my $index = { };  my @paths  = splitpath( $path );   now i want the path populated into the hash
19:55 PerlJam like [{}] \%hash, @paths ?
19:55 eric256 yea but in perl5 ;)
19:55 PerlJam in perl5 you write a loop
19:55 eric256 thank you perljam for that wisdom. lol.
19:56 eric256 the problem is that its building the hash as it goes..so the code i tried didn't work...lemme paste it
19:56 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "blah" (5 lines, 113B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13896
19:57 eric256 i'm pretty sure it doesn't work because the hash doesn't exist to start with.  gonna be a pain...;(
19:57 * eric256 wonders if the easiest thing might be to build a string and eval it
19:58 Lopo has joined #perl6
19:58 robkinyon what about : my $hash; my $str = "\$hash->" . join("", map { "{$_}" } @paths) . " = \$file;"; eval $str;
19:58 eric256 yea thats what i'm doing now.  seems to be the easiet way to do it.
19:58 Limbic_Region has quit IRC ("tiuq\")
19:58 robkinyon it's an ad-hoc implementation of like [{}], frankly
19:59 robkinyon like() has to be implemented with eval in P5
19:59 robkinyon (or a loop, but the loop version sucks rocks and is actually slower than the eval version, which is funny.)
19:59 robkinyon oh, and buggy no matter what you do
19:59 eric256 yea the loop would have too many special cases to create the hashref it it doesn't exist yet etc..
20:00 * eric256 is trying the eval version currently and crossing his fingers ;)
20:00 Juerd Lack of autovivification sucks.
20:00 Juerd I think it's the most important thing keeping me away from Ruby
20:07 wolverian Juerd, you can hack it by giving the constructor your own code block, but I don't know if you can do that for every hash, so that you don't have to recode the block for every hash
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20:19 r0nny yo
20:20 r0nny is there a way, to tell there is a array consists of references to a special kind of object ?
20:21 theorbtwo my @foos is Array of Foo;
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20:22 r0nny hmm
20:22 r0nny and if this array consists of references ?
20:23 theorbtwo It consists of Foo objects.
20:23 stevan is Array of Ref of Foo?
20:24 r0nny i need it to consit of references to foo objects
20:24 stevan why refs?
20:24 r0nny stevan: i have a array of depencyes
20:24 stevan why do you need the added level or indirection?
20:25 r0nny each of them has depencyes within this array
20:25 r0nny so references are usefull for me
20:25 stevan why?
20:25 r0nny since its the only way to point to the depencyes
20:25 * stevan is still not understanding though
20:26 theorbtwo s/yes/ies/.  Neither am I.
20:26 stevan objects are not copied by value or anything like that
20:26 stevan so the extra level of indirection is not really needed IMO
20:26 r0nny stevan: i have a array of a speical class - and each of the arrays elements needs to maintain a list of the elements of the array wich it depends on
20:27 stevan ok
20:27 r0nny tell me a better way if u know
20:27 stevan dont use refs
20:27 stevan thats all
20:27 r0nny then how else should i do ?
20:28 * eric256 thinks there is a general conflict of understanding
20:28 r0nny dont tell me "dont use the only way u know" without telling another way
20:28 eric256 in these cases r0nny it would probably help to show code
20:28 theorbtwo I think you're right, eric256.
20:28 r0nny atm im creating this code ;P
20:28 stevan my @foos = (Foo.new(), Foo.new()); @foo[1].add_dependency(@foo[0]);
20:29 theorbtwo You know an object is a reference, right?
20:29 stevan my @foos = (Foo.new(), Foo.new()); @foo[1].add_dependency(\@foo[0]); just adds a level of indirection which is not really needed
20:29 r0nny blessed reference
20:29 r0nny hmm
20:29 stevan r0nny: in p5 yes
20:30 stevan in p6, it is not
20:30 r0nny if objects are referneces there must be some kind of blessing
20:30 r0nny either the reference tells, or the object data itself
20:30 r0nny hmm
20:30 r0nny knowdegde of internals would be usefull
20:31 stevan r0nny: in p6 you dont need to know this, just know it is an object type
20:31 stevan like in Java, C#, etc.
20:32 theorbtwo ...and more importantly...
20:32 theorbtwo my $a = new Foo; $b = $a; $a.setBar("x"); $b.bar eq 'x';
20:33 r0nny hmm
20:33 r0nny so cloning is explicit
20:33 stevan r0nny: no, no cloning involved
20:33 theorbtwo If you want to clone, be explicit about it.
20:33 r0nny theorbtwo: thats what i said
20:33 r0nny and stevan missunderstood again
20:33 stevan r0nny: sorry I read it wrong too :)
20:34 theorbtwo You could stand to be a little more explicit too.
20:34 PerlJam stevan: you could've just said you were in violent agreement  ;)
20:34 * stevan just wants everyone to get along,.. no violence man,.. just peace brother
20:34 r0nny well - as long as my perl programms dont run planes / controll nukes  everything will be fine ;P
20:35 PerlJam r0nny: strange ... that's *exactly* what I hope my perl programs will do.
20:35 stevan as long as perl does not run planes, or control nukes,... :)
20:36 r0nny PerlJam: maybe if perl6 is complete
20:36 r0nny hmm
20:36 r0nny i got strange errors
20:36 PerlJam When there's a problem with the air traffic control software and fixing it will decide whether a plane crashes or not, would you rather have to wade through oodles of C or just a few lines of perl?  ;)
20:37 stevan PerlJam: if it is a life or death thing, I think fixing software is maybe not the best approach
20:37 PerlJam r0nny: I'm still hoping for a nice christmas present this year.
20:37 r0nny hehe
20:37 PerlJam stevan: well, one hopes that software that is life-or-death critical has been vetted properly.
20:37 * stevan was amazed to learn you can debug LISP in outerspace
20:37 r0nny PerlJam: afaik they use ada for planes
20:38 r0nny and i dont think its easy to get them away from it
20:38 stevan PerlJam: unless p6 has a predictable GC, its not even an option anyway
20:38 stevan r0nny: that is what Boeing uses, not sure about Airbus
20:38 r0nny hmm
20:38 PerlJam stevan: it will be as predictable as it needs to be.  (you can trigger GC whenever you need to)
20:39 stevan PerlJam: can you disable it though?
20:39 stevan that is what Java is not used for hard-realtime stuff
20:39 stevan cause you dont want the GC kicking in at a critical moment
20:40 stevan r0nny: Ada in airbus too (http://www.adaic.org/atwork/control.html)
20:40 PerlJam stevan: If someone raises the point in the appropriate forum, I'm sure that our intrepid implementors can see that it will be done.
20:40 r0nny i dont see perl as language for realtime systems
20:40 PerlJam What are "realtime systems"?
20:40 stevan PerlJam: I dont know about you, but I wouldnt pass the FAA review process :P
20:40 PerlJam (Everyone has a different definition of "real time")
20:40 r0nny PerlJam: everything is allways predictable
20:40 stevan PerlJam: and where timing is critical to the operation
20:41 PerlJam In that sense, I use perl in "real time" systems right now.
20:41 r0nny perl is only soft realtime
20:41 * stevan is glad he doesn't live near PerlJam ;)
20:41 r0nny hehe
20:41 PerlJam timing is critical, but there's usually several minutes between events.
20:41 stevan r0nny: that is probably stretching it a bit
20:41 r0nny perl isnt suitable for hard-realtime stuff
20:42 r0nny stevan: compare it to "realtime" linux ;P
20:42 * stevan doesnt know realtime linux :)
20:43 r0nny a brunch of hacks to make linux more suitable for realtime apps
20:43 stevan ah
20:43 r0nny but there is stuff where it cant keep the timings
20:43 stevan nice
20:43 stevan :P
20:43 r0nny so it is no hard-real-time
20:44 stevan hard-realtime is still done in assembler and tightly controlled C AFAIK
20:44 stevan and Ada
20:44 r0nny hmm
20:44 r0nny maybe there is a way to make perl6 suitable for kernel-programming
20:44 r0nny would be cool
20:45 theorbtwo Parrot's design has always been for highly user-tunable GC, including extreme tuning like "don't run".
20:45 r0nny it would be nice, to have the gc running in a extra thread
20:45 PerlJam terms like "soft" and "hard" real time are meaningless to me.
20:45 integral hmm, you don't necessarily need to disable the GC,  just make it more bounded in runtime, surely?
20:46 integral although things like regions, or apr's pools seem more ideal
20:46 PerlJam Now, if you talked about response time in terms of minutes, seconds, microseconds, whatever
20:46 stevan PerlJam: "hard" realtime is: nuclear reactors, airplanes, etc
20:46 dduncan has joined #perl6
20:46 r0nny PerlJam: well - using "soft" stuff in envs where "hard" stuff is needes could create whorst-case situatuins
20:46 stevan "soft" realtime is: phone switching systems
20:47 * stevan cant think of another example
20:47 theorbtwo hard realtime has specifications that say things like "this function takes 3 ms +/- 2ns".
20:47 r0nny routers
20:47 theorbtwo Soft realtime says "this function takes no more then 5 ms".
20:47 theorbtwo (Or at least this is how I understand it, having never done either...)
20:47 stevan PerlJam: usually picoseconds actually
20:47 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric256/t_index/
20:47 stevan nanoseconds
20:47 stevan stuff like that
20:47 eric256 tree of all tests. ;) now to make those link ;)
20:48 theorbtwo What's a couple orders of magnitude between friends?
20:48 stevan depending upon the application: life and death,.. or my burrito takes longer to microwave  
20:49 r0nny hmm
20:49 r0nny btw - does normal regex syntax work allready ?
20:49 theorbtwo Yes, for at least two definitions of "normal".
20:50 r0nny or do i still need to use the prefix?
20:50 theorbtwo (Perl 5 regular expressions, and perl 6 rules, but not grammar... I think.)
20:50 r0nny two definitions of "normal"?
20:50 stevan PerlJam: see this (http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20011016S0120)
20:50 r0nny no need for gramar
20:51 theorbtwo Ah.  If you didn't mean perl5 regular expressions, they're called "rules" now.
20:51 r0nny i just need to scan a string, get some special strings, and replace them with data got from a hash
20:52 stevan PerlJam: to quote the article "A hard real-time system is one in which one or more activities must never miss a deadline or timing constraint, otherwise the system fails. Failure includes damage to the equipment, major loss in revenues, or even injury or death to users of the system."
20:52 r0nny baslcally i want to replacy every %foo-bar either with $hash{foo-bar} or $hash{foo}{bar}
20:52 PerlJam stevan: yeah, I read it.
20:52 stevan ok
20:52 stevan :)
20:53 PerlJam "hard" and "soft" are still too imprecise for my tastes.
20:53 theorbtwo Oh.  I'd use a s:perl5(g)/-/}{/.  (IIRC.)
20:53 r0nny oh - and every %_foobar by the results of a method call
20:53 PerlJam r0nny:  p6 rules are available if you have parrot in your path.
20:54 theorbtwo ?eval $a = '$hash{foo-bar}'; $a ~~ s:perl5(g)/-/}{/; $a;
20:54 evalbot_7725 Error: Undeclared variable: "$a"
20:54 theorbtwo ?eval my $a = '$hash{foo-bar}'; $a ~~ s:perl5(g)/-/}{/; $a;
20:54 evalbot_7725 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&g"
20:54 theorbtwo ?eval my $a = '$hash{foo-bar}'; $a ~~ s:perl5/-/}{/; $a;
20:54 evalbot_7725 \"$hash\{foo}\{bar}"
20:54 theorbtwo Something like that, anyway.
20:54 PerlJam theorbtwo: you mesn s:perl5:g/-/}{/;
20:54 r0nny PerlJam: any texts on them ?
20:55 r0nny PerlJam: i want to use perl6 as much as possible
20:55 r0nny no perl5 if i could avoid
20:55 PerlJam r0nny: other than the Apocalypse and Synposis, you'll need to read the docs on parrot/compilers/pge
20:58 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric256​/t_index/t/statements/first.html   now links to the actual tests ;)
21:01 eric256 too few tests are linked to any documentation. ;)
21:02 r0nny is there a good way for recursive replacement ? (ie the substring just got replaces needs other replacements)
21:02 Juerd eric256: If you see a task for yourself, by all means get started ;)
21:03 eric256 i am ;)
21:03 svnbot6 r7726 | putter++ | Declare PIL-Run inactive.
21:03 svnbot6 r7726 | putter++ | I began an integrated PIL-Run and Perl6-Value/Container rewrite,
21:03 svnbot6 r7726 | putter++ | but -Ofun prunes it.
21:04 eric256 getting the visualization there..then i can read through those SAE and make sure there are plenty of links to test demonstarting ...but first many of the links to documentation are broken so that needs fixed too.
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21:04 eric256 this is a task i can manage without waiting for consensu on differnt things...mind if i have the build process on feather build the test structure too?  not yet but when it gets a bit prettier
21:05 Juerd eric256: No, of course I don't mind.
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21:05 eric256 r0nny keep scanning the string for replacements (over and over) until there are none todo
21:05 Juerd eric256: Why do you feel you have to ask?
21:06 eric256 juerd..just being polite. ;) since you where here..wouldn't have seeked you out, but i do appreciate the enviroment to do this stuff in so i ask our of courtesy
21:06 eric256 s/our/out/
21:06 Juerd eric256: The motd should speak for itself :)
21:07 Juerd It's a productivity platform
21:07 evalbot_7725 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:07 eric256 yea. well then i wont ask anymore!! lol ;)
21:07 Juerd Asking me isn't very effective in getting things done :P
21:07 Juerd :)
21:07 eric256 i just worry with automated tasks
21:07 Juerd And you should
21:07 evalbot_7726 has joined #perl6
21:07 Juerd It should probably be ulimited somehow
21:08 eric256 so i ask...this way you know it exists too if something goes wrong while i'm away..but i wont start it now.
21:08 hexmode has quit IRC (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
21:08 Juerd If something goes wrong, I'll find the responsible person anyway. Or not.
21:08 Juerd Mostly, if something goes wrong, the box will be unavailable for a while. That is a bigger problem than anyone's guilt.
21:08 eric256 and i thought maybe i'd have it build once a night or something. since tests don't change all that rapidly..depends if we can get other people interested in fixing doc links...dang i wish i could remember who said they were working on that...thought there was someone dedicated to it a while back
21:09 Juerd The motd also says something about this :)
21:09 Juerd You can ask who said that in the mailing lists
21:10 eric256 yea.../me puts nose back to grind stone for now. ;)
21:10 Juerd "grind stone"? What does that mean?
21:10 eric256 just a phrase for going back to work
21:10 eric256 think it originated from cattle pushing the grinding wheel or something like that
21:11 Juerd English is such a wonderful..ly annoying language.
21:11 eric256 hehe. your telling me
21:11 Juerd My telling you?
21:11 Juerd Nice illustration of my point, though.
21:11 * eric256 makes note not to use any odd phrases aroudn Juerd for fear of needing to explain them. lol
21:12 Juerd :)
21:13 Juerd Dutch doesn't have that many set phrases
21:13 eric256 on reflection that phrase doesn't strictly make sense, but i've never had anyone who speaks english question it. lol. when i was learning spanish they had stuff like that to, or when i listen to spanish on TV i'm like...what?
21:13 Juerd I'm not used to thinking so many levels deep to figure out what something means.
21:13 eric256 that probably makes life easier.
21:14 Juerd We have euphemisms, of course, but that's a separate category.
21:14 Amnesiac has joined #perl6
21:14 eric256 my favorite is " i could care less"...which should realy be "i couldn't care less" but the 'not' normaly gets dropped making the phrase mean the exact opposite of how it is intended
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21:18 r0nny if %info.exists($cmd) <- if doesnt like the i after the % - what did i wrong ?
21:18 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1=>2); say "yea" if exists %info<1>;
21:18 evalbot_7726 Error: Undeclared variable: "%info"
21:19 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1=>2); say "yea" if exists %x<1>;
21:19 evalbot_7726 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exists"
21:19 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1=>2); say "yea" if %x.exists<1>;
21:19 evalbot_7726 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&exists"
21:19 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1=>2); %x.perl;
21:19 evalbot_7726 "\{(\"1\" => 2),}"
21:19 eric256 got me. ;) doesn't seem to work at all
21:19 r0nny ?
21:20 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1=>2); say "yea" if %x.exists("1");
21:20 evalbot_7726 yea bool::true
21:20 eric256 nm. works fine. if you use it right. ;)
21:20 xerox What does '%' mean?
21:20 eric256 hash
21:20 eric256 r0nny  it probably doesn't like somewhere else..whats the error?
21:20 eric256 perlbot nopaste
21:20 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
21:23 r0nny is there a way to do multi-dimensional access to hashed with a array of keys ?
21:24 Juerd Yes.
21:24 svnbot6 r7727 | putter++ | Update STATUS of 'other implementations of p6 rules' to 'inactive'.
21:24 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1 => (2=>(3=>"hello"))); %x<1><2><3>;
21:24 r0nny Juerd: how ?
21:24 evalbot_7726 \"hello"
21:24 xerox lisppaste3: url?
21:24 lisppaste3 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 and enter your paste.
21:24 Juerd r0nny: [.{}] %hash, @keys
21:25 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1 => (2=>(3=>"hello")));  [{}] %x (1, 2, 3);
21:25 evalbot_7726 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&x"
21:25 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1 => (2=>(3=>"hello")));  [.{}] %x (1, 2, 3);
21:25 r0nny omg cool ;P
21:25 evalbot_7726 Error: cannot cast from VList [VStr "1",VList [VInt 2,VRef <Pair>]] to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
21:25 eric256 ?eval my %x = (1 => (2=>(3=>"hello")));  [.{}] %x, (1, 2, 3);
21:25 evalbot_7726 \"hello"
21:25 eric256 sweet it even works ;)
21:25 dduncan fyi, if anyone cares, MySQL 5.0 is now final/stable/GA
21:25 r0nny Juerd: does it work with exists, too ?
21:26 Juerd r0nny: Yes and no.
21:26 r0nny Juerd: manual ?
21:27 r0nny or can i do a multi sub for it ?
21:27 Juerd r0nny: All but the -1st autovivify the element left of it, afaik.
21:27 Juerd Unless this changed. Did it? It'd be very weird.
21:28 evalbot_7726 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
21:28 r0nny how do i tell a multi sub it works ona hash, and gets a array as argument
21:28 evalbot_7727 has joined #perl6
21:28 Juerd r0nny: multi sub foo (%foo is rw, @array)
21:28 eric256 multi sub what (hash $self: Array @array) {}
21:29 eric256 or the %...actualy probably has to be %
21:29 Juerd eric256: An invocant in a sub?
21:29 eric256 if you do %hash.x   isn't %hash the invocant?
21:29 eric256 or not?
21:29 Juerd Hm, yes.
21:30 eric256 thats what i thought he meant by on a ;) other wise its just a sub with two args
21:34 evalbot_7727 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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21:36 svnbot6 r7728 | putter++ | Grammars/MatchX.pm deleted - Obsoleted by more recent/correct Match classes in PIL2JS and PIL-Run.
21:36 svnbot6 r7728 | putter++ | Grammars/rx_grammar0.pl deleted - A never-used copy of rx_grammar.pl.
21:40 * eric256 wonders if we can have a $x.html method. ;) for pretty printing in html in addition to .perl
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21:42 r0nny eric256: just use a lib for syntax-highlighting as soon, as its portet
21:42 svnbot6 r7729 | putter++ | INSTALL: Removed "There is currently an undiagnosed bug in eval_yaml().",
21:42 svnbot6 r7729 | putter++ | as it's not clear this is true.
21:42 svnbot6 r7730 | eric256++ | catalog_test.pl - Updated some, created index.html file, fixed e to be exe. Going to work on having templates, color coded test files, stuff like that.
21:44 eric256 r0nny...embedded .html that tagged each element with a div and a class tag would make highlighting as simple as a css file. ;) assuming you could load and parse a file without executing it and then call .html on the result ;)
21:44 eric256 as its portet could also equal long from now and is going about the issue in a backwards kind of fashion IMH
21:45 pasteling "r0nny" at 84.184.148.187 pasted "recursion in multi sub deepexists broken :/" (56 lines, 1.2K) at http://sial.org/pbot/13899
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21:47 stevan r0nny: it fails because nothing is being returned from $cmd.split()
21:47 stevan no array at least
21:47 r0nny eric256: its not the task of perl to give html syntax highlighting
21:47 r0nny stevan: ?
21:47 stevan regarding your paste
21:48 eric256 r0nny...why not? wouldn't it be a handy feature? besides if perl has already parsed it, why parse it agian..i assume this could be an extension that walks the AST or something
21:48 stevan r0nny: oh, wait, it failing the recursion
21:48 stevan hmm
21:48 r0nny stevan: as long as i dont use stuff like fkk-bar it works
21:48 r0nny stevan: i allready wrote it fails the recursion
21:49 * stevan is not reading well today ;)
21:49 r0nny any idea how to repair
21:49 stevan why are you making it a multi?
21:49 r0nny i suck at this
21:49 r0nny hmm
21:49 r0nny right - no need of multi
21:50 eric256 and realy you could call it deepexists(%h, @a)  just to simplify things
21:50 stevan however, if you do multi, then you could just do this:
21:50 eric256 why do you say its failing recursion? what is it doing?  if you print @a inside deep exists does that shed any light
21:50 stevan multi sub deepexists (Hash %h) { return 0 }
21:50 stevan eric256: when @a is undef the multi-sub will no longer match
21:51 eric256 chat window was sitting over that note in the cood...sorry
21:51 eric256 lol
21:51 stevan :)
21:51 r0nny will it work with a scalar if array has 1 elements
21:52 stevan probably not, although I am not sure
21:52 eric256 you want to return 1 when @a is undef not 0
21:52 eric256 because they all existed all the way to the last element
21:52 eric256 and i don't think you want @a to be rw....doesn't appear to be a need
21:53 r0nny i need to use exists if a has the size of 1
21:54 eric256 hmmm so?
21:57 r0nny hmm
21:57 eric256 lol
21:57 r0nny the multi-extension wont work :/
21:59 r0nny stevan: the sub with the array seems to match allways
22:00 r0nny damn - how to get this working :/
22:01 r0nny all i need is a deep exists
22:06 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "deep exists" (12 lines, 300B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13900
22:06 eric256 not pretty but it will work ;)
22:07 r0nny hmm
22:07 eric256 hmmm.....what?
22:08 pasteling "eric256" at 66.102.136.66 pasted "deep exists - better ;)" (12 lines, 287B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13901
22:09 r0nny sweet
22:09 Juerd sub deep_exists (%hash, *@_) { @_ or return 1; %hash.exists{shift} or return 0; return deep_exists(%hash, @_); }
22:09 Juerd Oh, good point,
22:09 Juerd +@_ or return 1
22:10 eric256 yours checks multiple keys of the same level, mine goes deeper with each check
22:10 Juerd Eh, I forgot something :)
22:10 eric256 lol
22:10 Juerd sub deep_exists (%hash, *@_) { @_ or return 1; %hash.exists{my $key = shift} or return 0; return deep_exists(%hash{$key}, @_); }
22:10 Juerd There
22:10 eric256 there you go...mines still prettier though . ;)
22:11 Juerd It's multi line.
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22:11 Juerd nice use of slurpy scalar
22:12 eric256 sub dexists (%hash, *$first, *@rest is copy) { %hash.exists($first) or return 0; +@rest or return 1; dexists(%hash.{$first},  @rest);}
22:12 eric256 now neither are pretty. ;)
22:12 eric256 thanks btw ;)
22:13 eric256 i like these new function signatures...when they all work it will be even cooler. ;)
22:15 r0nny now it works :)
22:18 dolmen has quit IRC ("Fermeture du client")
22:19 r0nny so
22:19 r0nny finally i can sleep :)
22:19 eric256 lol
22:19 eric256 i know that feeling
22:19 r0nny *afk*
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22:58 crenz Hi all, I have a quesiton on using parrot subroutines in Pugs.
23:00 khaladan has joined #perl6
23:01 leo crenz: while I can't answer the question, parrot backend is currently still stalled
23:02 eric256 has left
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23:03 svnbot6 r7731 | eric256++ | Cleaning up test to documentation cross references.
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23:05 crenz Basically, I wanted to be able to "read" a imc, pir or pbc file and have the symbols appear in the Pugs namespaces. Is this possible with any other compiler that targets parrot?
23:06 crenz (In fact, is there somewhere a list of compilers that target parrot?)
23:09 Juerd Perhaps irc.perl.org #parrot is a better place to ask
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23:11 leo hmm seems more like a bugs/haskell question to me
23:12 leo (the former question)
23:12 leo list of compilers: languages/* in the parrot tree
23:13 * leo wonders why pugs got misspelled like this ;-)
23:14 Blicero has joined #perl6
23:22 crenz thanks for the answers so far!
23:22 Liz has left
23:22 crenz So I can safely assume it's not possible to use parrot libraries in Pugs right now.
23:37 _SamB_ has joined #perl6
23:42 leo crenz: the pugs lambdacamels seem to be absent currently
23:49 crenz that's okay, I'll go to bed and ask again later :-) Danke!
23:49 leo crenz: bitte & gute nacht
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