Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-26

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:11 svnbot6 r7741 | luqui++ | Fixed ().perl
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00:14 luqui ?eval []
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00:14 luqui hooray
00:14 luqui ?eval [3]
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00:20 theorbtwo ?eval ()
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00:20 theorbtwo ?eval [[], []]
00:20 evalbot_7741 [[], []]
00:20 stevan putter: dont go anywhere
00:22 stevan putter: I have to take the dog out, bbiab, but dont leave :)
00:25 stevan putter: ping # im back
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00:35 luqui ?eval (())
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00:35 luqui ?eval [[]]
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00:35 luqui ?eval [[[[[[]]]]]]
00:35 evalbot_7741 [[[[[[],],],],],]
00:35 luqui ?eval [[[[[()]]]]]
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00:36 luqui ?eval sub id (*@_) { @_ } [[[[[id()]]]]]
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00:36 luqui ?eval sub id (*@_) { @_ } [[[[[item id()]]]]]
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00:50 stevan hey luqui
00:50 putter ;)  hi stevan
00:50 stevan putter!!!!!!
00:50 putter L)
00:51 putter err, :)
00:51 stevan LOL
00:51 stevan hey putter,.. so your back,..where yah been?
00:51 putter life...
00:51 stevan ah
00:51 putter perhaps a bit burned out on pugs...
00:52 stevan yeah that can happen
00:54 putter remember the spring... "trade tests for bug fixes"...
00:54 stevan yeah
00:54 putter ah well.
00:54 stevan so are you back,.. or just dropping by?
00:54 luqui hi stevan
00:55 stevan hey luqui
00:55 stevan whatcha doing will all the [[]]]] stuff?
00:55 luqui oh, [].perl was throwing a bad error
00:55 luqui so I fixed it
00:55 luqui and then I was just playing
00:55 * stevan was hoping for a tuple type or something
00:56 luqui once Larry weighs in all his thoughts on the tuple, it will be in
00:56 luqui for the moment, I'm hacking perl6.vim
00:58 putter mmm... tuples...
00:59 svnbot6 r7742 | luqui++ | Added the c| sigil to perl6.vim.
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01:01 stevan putter: I have to run in a sec, but good to see you back
01:01 stevan If you are up to it, I would like to work out some object space details
01:02 stevan if you havent already, I recommend reading the PyPy docs,... they are very interesting so far
01:02 stevan I like their approach
01:02 putter thanks stevan, sure, I can be around for an hour or so.
01:02 putter hmm, I haven't looked at pypy in about 9 months or so.  any changes?
01:02 putter but later.
01:02 stevan I dunno, I only really looked at it recently
01:03 stevan putter: i got 10 minutes now if you do?
01:04 putter sure.
01:04 putter what's our objective?
01:04 stevan well I read over the P6::V/C stuff
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01:04 putter ok
01:04 stevan the thing that I was worried about was that the metamodel and the native stuff was so intertwined
01:04 putter yes
01:05 stevan I think they should be at different ends (as in my drawing)
01:05 stevan so that I can build the metamodel with the natives and then we can wrap
01:05 stevan I am currently taking the native bits in P6::Value and tweaking them a bit
01:06 putter what aspect of interwined is of concern?
01:06 stevan well, I cannot build the metamodel with a class which is implemented with the metamodel
01:06 stevan but the metamodel should (eventually) return boexed types
01:07 stevan so when I say MyClass.meta.name
01:07 stevan I should get back a Str instance
01:07 stevan where Str is a wrapper around the native 'str' type
01:07 stevan which means the metamodel needs to use a 'str' (at least intially)
01:08 putter hmm... so this is not a problem for things which the metamodel doesnt need to be working during its own bootstrap, yes?
01:08 stevan the 'str' may get autoboxed into a 'Str', or we may need to wrap Class in some way to implement that autoboxing behavior
01:08 stevan yes
01:09 stevan the metamodels methods are black boxes
01:09 stevan however, they must take in and return (at a minimum) native runtime types
01:09 putter do you have a feel for what the "needs to be working during bootstrap" list looks like?
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01:09 stevan str, num, bit (or bool), closure, list and hash
01:10 stevan closure will have a pad/environment with it too
01:10 stevan I have str, bit and num so far
01:10 putter no boxed types.  so Str and and Array and P6::V aren't really at issue?  just the absence of any str, num, bit, etc?
01:10 stevan they are very simple really
01:11 stevan no boxed,.. these are runtime types,.. may be exposed as unboxed types later,..
01:11 stevan well Str and Array should be built using these runtime types
01:11 stevan Str should wrap str
01:12 stevan this ends up being really low level stuff,.. so str really wont do too much
01:12 putter hmm... so currently, the unboxed types are unembelished p5 things...?
01:12 stevan most of the real Perl 6 functionality will be in Str
01:12 stevan putter: they are very simple p5 objects
01:12 stevan objects
01:12 putter currently?
01:13 stevan I have some hacked together,.. based on the ones in Perl6::Value
01:13 putter ah.  but prior to that, they were p5 values, rather than objects.  what motivates the change?
01:13 stevan oh you mean in the metamodel?
01:14 stevan yes they were just plain old p5 strings and stuff
01:14 putter (approaching original conversation timeout)
01:14 stevan the motivation for the change was that I wanted to explore the object space thing :)
01:14 stevan and to try and get the Syn12.5 written
01:15 stevan but all this required figuring out where my strings were coming from
01:15 putter ... and...  you wanted the unboxed types to respond to method calls??
01:15 stevan well, I like OO, so I implemented them using OO
01:15 stevan they may or may not be exposed to the user as unboxed types
01:16 stevan that is not my descision or concern right now
01:16 stevan this does mean the dispatch mechanism in the metamodel will change
01:16 stevan actually what I am doing is re-implementing Chaos.pm
01:16 stevan in a sense
01:16 stevan but my time is up,... so I have to go
01:16 stevan read the PyPy docs,.. i think they are probably much further along now
01:16 stevan it is very intersting stuff
01:17 putter hmm.  I'm still confused on a core point.  the old unboxed things were p5 values.  they are changing to simple p5 objects.  I'm still unclear on why.
01:17 putter ok.  nice talk.  perhaps see you later.
01:17 stevan because if we are going to make a p5 runtime,.. we have to draw a line somewhere
01:17 stevan for the metamodel to be portable, it needs to sit on the same foundation
01:18 stevan that foundation is really just thin wrappers over native str, num, bit, list, hash, code
01:18 stevan but I gotta run,.. and feel free to rant,.. I will backlog later &
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01:56 putter stevan: i'm off. perhaps back in ~1/2 hr.  one possible conversation looks like "so, what are the objectives of the mm? ... any areas of uncertainty? ... given those objectives towards those clients - in what ways does the existing implementation not meet those objectives?  ... what is the intended change?  ... how will the objectives met change?  any areas of uncertainty?"  yada yada. ;)
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01:58 putter questions motivated in part, for example, by my being unclear on what flavors of portability are desired.
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02:04 fglock hi stevan putter
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02:15 qnetjoe can anyone help with a small perl problem?
02:18 buu no
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02:26 eric256_ hello
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02:29 fglock hi eric256_
02:29 eric256_ is now known as eric256__
02:29 eric256__ ??
02:29 eric256__ i tried /nick eric256 and it added an extra _  how rude ;)
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02:42 * eric256__ tries to figure out how to use line and colum numbers to ouput test files with highlighted tests. ;)
02:47 fglock stevan: there are p5 objects for str/int/bit in the Perl6::Value::* namespaces - they are in the second half of Value.pm. Hash and Array are also implemented as p5 objects, and then wrapped in the metamodel
02:47 fglock putter: nice cleanup - thanks!
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03:13 putter hi fglock!
03:14 putter are you going to be around for a bit?
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03:14 putter (and by implication, are you around now?:)
03:19 fglock putter: hi - I was distracted :) I'll be around for an hour
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03:30 putter great :) bbiab
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03:44 putter ahhhh.  ok.  fglock: ping?
03:45 mrborisguy eric256: any way you can get the code pages to use a standard template like the other three types, instead of using treebuilder?
03:45 fglock pong
03:45 putter hi, it's been a while.  how goes?
03:47 eric256__ the code pages load code.tmpl
03:47 eric256__ and insert the code into the pre tag
03:47 eric256__ so as long as you leave the pre tag its all good..
03:47 eric256__ in short..not yet. directly
03:47 fglock I'm helping organize YAPC::SaoPaulo - it will be in less than 2 weeks
03:47 fglock I've not worked much in Pugs
03:48 fglock but I have some ideas for Array optimization
03:48 putter ah, neat.  the boston yapc proposal folks have tried to get me to help, but i just dont have the tuits for something like that.
03:50 fglock next year we will have YAPC::SouthAmerica - we already have people from Brazil and Argentina working on it - very nice :)
03:50 mrborisguy eric256: I tried to put an XML prefix on the template, and TreeBuilder must have stripped it off.
03:50 mrborisguy which reminds me... are you opposed to formatting the pages in strict XHTML?
03:52 putter I'm puzzling over development path.  Have you had any thoughts on say the interaction between P6::V/C and MM stuff?  Or a P6::V/C cleanup pass?
03:52 eric256__ xhmtl if fine. if you can get TreeBuilder to work with it
03:52 Blicero how do you access the last element of an array in perl6
03:52 Khisanth @foo[-1] doesn't work anymore?
03:52 putter oh, right, yapc takes a region modifier. ;)  re yapc::sa, neat!   i think the boston proposal is for yapc::na.
03:53 putter hmm, is there a yapc::a?
03:53 eric256__ gtg for now.
03:53 eric256__ has left
03:53 Blicero thanks
03:54 fglock maybe YAPC::World some day - but the cost of travelling would be high for everyone. Local, smaller YAPCs make it very affordable
03:55 mrborisguy I'll just leave the code pages for now
03:57 putter Basically I managed to break P6::V/C in the course of the rewrite everything.  Which was expected, but I'm sort of out of tuits to finish the P6::V/C part.  So if you were planning on dusting P6::V/C, or doing something combined with stevan, I'd just punt and wait for a bit.  If not, perhaps I should just do a very minimal stripped down version of p6vc, get everything sort of working and committed, and punt there.
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03:58 putter committed as P6::Run::OnPerlyada yada.  pilrun would stay the same, so your current development stuff would be unaffected.
03:58 svnbot6 r7743 | eric256++ | catalog_tests.pl - updated templates some more.
03:59 * putter pictures perl communities chartering aircraft.  and the effect of a accident.
03:59 fglock how about separating the p5 objects in a separate file? maybe this would help stevan's work
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04:01 fglock re Array: it's just about the algorithm - once it works, it can be ported to the working files
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04:03 putter I'd love to see a "travel cost show as distance" map of the world.  have to be 3-d of course.  I'm not sure how to deal with oddities like one direction is more expensive than the other.
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04:04 putter not sure one can do a general map.  might need to do "starting point specific" maps.  but hopefully not.
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04:04 putter re files...
04:04 fglock you have to take politics into account too - visa problems, currency evaluation ...
04:04 putter oh, good point.
04:08 putter basically I'm trying to get the overhaul to the point of working well enough that folks would rather fix it than deal with pilrun.  but that requires leaving the p6vc part of things in a form you would be comfortable using.  and it's not clear to me its there yet.
04:11 fglock would it be possible to move p6vc into the p6 prelude, with the low level parts written in p5? (not sure if PIL would support this)
04:11 putter another posibility is toss the overhaul up as a carcass in misc/, and let folks scavange at will.  having done this several times already, I'm rather hesitant to add the "stink" of another one.
04:11 putter re "move ...",
04:11 putter you mean the src/perl6/Prelude.pm ?
04:13 fglock no, the p6 part of pil-run Prelude
04:13 putter basically, if pil supported oo, I'd suggest writing a p6 implementation of everything, generate ... oh.
04:13 fglock but that's probably a too-big project
04:14 fglock anyway, I found that having everything in a big file makes it more readable
04:14 putter that's basically what pil2js does.  it's slightly complicated by the objects themselves not making it through pil, but the methods do.
04:15 putter re big file, oh, neat.  I was worried that would be one contributor towards "fglock wont want to work on it in this form".
04:16 fglock :)
04:17 fglock we could move all methods to multisubs
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04:21 putter re stuffing everything through p6... yes, one could do that.  absent pil2, one still needs to play games to get the object information directly from the code.  or take pil2js's approach of explicitly coding it, though I lack the patience with clutter to be happy with it in that form.  sigh.  one approach is to simply punt and wait for pil2.
04:24 fglock did you include Match and Junction too?
04:25 putter re methods vs multisubs, both should be getting through pil fine.  so there is not need to change there.  basically one can say  class C { method m ($n) { magicname('p5 code')($n) } }  like pil2js does.  or create that from a  class C { method m ($n) :p5 { p5 code } }
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04:27 putter re M&J, yes, but at somepoint I ripped/commented out Junctions with a rationale of "I'm having trouble getting even  say 'hi'  to work.  simplify, simplify, and add stuff back once things are working again".
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04:29 fglock moving things to p6 will make it even less readable - maybe it's not a good idea at this point. But after PIL2 it would be a nice experiment
04:32 putter err, moving things to p6 doesnt need to make things less readable.  we are already paying the complexity cost of doing source filtering, so moving to p6 can be invisible.  pil2js just made the quite plausible choice that the complexity of filtering wasnt worth increase in code clarity.
04:35 fglock you have a mini-p6 implemented in a source filter, right? would it be possible to make it even more p6-like?
04:35 putter actually, perhaps my largest reservation about the overhaul is the complexity of the filter which grovels over the big all-in-one prelude file.  it's rather larger than the couple of lines used by pilrun's primp5.
04:38 putter ah, yes.  I think that boils down to "can one preprocess p6 code in order to fake having pil2".  I think the answer is yes, and I intermittantly wonder if I should have taken that approach.  didnt.
04:39 fglock yes - can it evolve into a partial implementation of p6? use MM for the objects, and p5 for almost everything else (this is just for the Prelude)
04:44 putter yes.  one of the reasons I didnt go down the fake-pil2 path was a minimal-p6 approach had a much faster edit-test loop.  but once things were basically working, it was nice to be able to flexibly choose p5 or p6, depending on which was easier.
04:44 putter on a function by function basis.
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04:46 putter re "can it evolve", that's basically what the overhaul does.
04:46 putter getting late.
04:47 fglock nice - so we are going in the right direction, I think
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04:50 putter if there was someone interested in taking over the runtime core, I'd just do a handoff with them.  but no-one has expressed interest.  pilrun is a bit clunky for this next phase of things.  so the question is how to keep you and steven supported.  of course, if stevan's MM2.1 ?:)  combines with P6::V/C, then that's less of a problem.  I can just add the overhauled runcore, and we're all set.
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04:52 fglock that's a good plan, imo
04:56 putter beyond supporting you and stevan, I'm not sure what the objective of the p5 backend should be.  with pil2, a lot of this gets much simpler.  if pil2 were to be available in a few weeks, I'd suggest waiting.  if not for another half year, one might consider trying to evac from haskell pugs.  but the best bet there would be more something like piljs linked with perl as a boostrap platform, rather than the p5 backend.  a better p5 backend
04:56 putter would be a good source of attention, but I'm not sure we want that kind of attention until we get a better handle on oo.
04:56 putter s/attention/attention from the world/
04:58 putter in between, one thinks about preprocessing p6 code with regexps to work around pil1 limitations.
04:59 fglock re the objective: a "readable" p5 backend can help hackers that are scared of learning haskell :)
05:00 putter though there is a different "big picture" flavor of approach.  basically doing P6::V/C and the runcore like the existing p5 Perl6:: modules.  like stevan's start at a MM cpan module.  do the p5 backend piecemeal on cpan.
05:01 putter re hackers,
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05:06 putter true.  my (fuzzy) thought is, we're still critically dependent on pugs/hs parsing, typechecking, and compiling.  witness the current issue with objects.  that only goes away once p5 has rules and objects, and can host a p6 bootstrap.  but pugs/hs is a better place to do that.  so...
05:07 fglock 3am here - time to sleep
05:07 putter so it feels kind of like we are starving, sitting between to piles of food, but unable to decide which to eat.  if pugs ...
05:08 putter yeah.   1am here.  good night fglock.  it's been good to touch base with you.
05:10 putter basically, if pugs/hs was going away, we could probably get a kludge of piljs, perl5, and prolog running in a few weeks.  but that would be a silly waste of effort if pugs/hs development is going to pick up again.  but it hasn't yet.  so things are sort of in limbo.
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05:12 fglock keeping reasonable expectations helps avoid burnout - we are doing some useful prototype work, which will be useful for pugs/hs too
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05:13 fglock good night
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05:15 putter very true.  and a good point.  I'm definitely in a expectation-reality disonnance.  I keep expecting pugs to have, or any-moment-now get back to having, a clock speed like it did in the Spring.  good point.  thanks.
05:15 putter good night fglock &
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05:20 putter stevan: sorry we didnt get your second conversation this evening.  I'll try to wander by later in the week.  tomorrow, err, later today, probably wont happen.  but perhaps thurs.
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05:27 putter random thought: just as vc was a problem for parrot (cvs, so pugs-like anarcism was too scary), I wonder if pugs/hs is being constrained by our svn central-archive model.  ie, rather than a linux-kernel-like multiple threads of development, with curational aggregation.  pugs/hs is so central to everything, that it can't afford to stay broken for long.  and there's only one of it.  so patches either work, or get roled back.  there is no
05:27 putter collaborative not-quite-working-yet pugs/hs reengineering.  (ie, new features can afford to not quite work, and folks can work off-achive, using svk say, but havent yet I don't think).
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05:35 putter for a while things worked by "it's ok to break pugs/hs, because, wost case, autrijus can quickly glance at the problem and fix it".  if things stay broken for days, rather than minutes or hours, that changes the development dynamic.  hmm, though windows folks apparently quietly lived with pugs being broken for them for a long time (a week or few).  perhaps we are simply being too conservative, and pugs should be spending more time broke
05:35 putter n? ;)
05:35 putter end of random thought.
05:35 putter g'night &
05:35 mrborisguy talking to yourself? ;)
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05:37 putter that tends to be the only option this time of day.  folks backlog, so it ends up being an asyncronous conversation.  I'll probably pick up stevan's reply to me hours or even a day after he writes it.
05:37 putter irc as bullitin board
05:39 putter s/ and folks can work off-achive/ and folks can work collaboratively off-achive/
05:40 putter there's an experiment for a lambda camel - do some agressive development on pugs/hs, which leaves it not quite working, and see if we can collectively cope.  if not, perhaps we need to fiddle with the vc model.
05:41 putter cheers &
05:41 putter good night mrborisguy  ;)
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06:56 autrijus Perl made me bleed :/
06:56 * autrijus just cut the middle finger of left hand
06:56 autrijus ...caused by the amsterdam.pm camel award
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07:17 * brother gives autrijus the Purple Sigil
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07:58 gaal autrijus: what *was* the the amsterdam camel award?
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08:14 autrijus gaal: eh... see use.perl
08:14 * autrijus needs to nap a bit now... bad night train with babbling crowd
08:14 autrijus http://www.sppn.nl/nieuws/nieuws-20051020.html
08:19 gaal Ah, I gathered it had a hump, I just never hear of a black one being awarded before.
08:21 gaal And thanks to the translate extension, I know why they're called Black now. :)
08:21 nothingmuch why are they called black?
08:21 nothingmuch ref to black magick?
08:22 gaal they were made by someone called Cynthia Black
08:23 nothingmuch ah
08:25 gaal https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=181 # excellent
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08:28 * autrijus naps... but finally got stable net
08:28 autrijus bbiab :)
08:29 autrijus (massive tcp/ip withdrawl)--
08:29 * nothingmuch had a massive seriousness withdrawl this week
08:29 nothingmuch spent all of my free time doing one of:
08:29 nothingmuch just sitting
08:29 nothingmuch playing dumb games on the playstation
08:29 nothingmuch drinking, smoking, eating salty foods
08:30 nothingmuch and hiking
08:30 nothingmuch s/one/at any given time, at least one/
08:30 nothingmuch oh, and we also had a big cooking thing, we made lovely food, and then people ate it
08:31 nothingmuch i think overall I wrote less LOC than I do in a normal day ;-)
08:31 nothingmuch gaal: thanks for the Lisa Germano pointer
08:31 nothingmuch i got some from emusic
08:31 nothingmuch i'm having fun
08:33 gaal cool, which album?
08:39 nothingmuch Geek the Girl
08:45 gaal I don't know that one. If you can, try Lullaby for Liquid Pig.
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11:01 sanxiyn You may want to read http://codespeak.net/pypy/dist/pypy/doc/draft-dynamic-language-translation.html
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11:17 Juerd obsessive /last $self --
11:17 Juerd The previous /last output was still visible.
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12:39 xinming hmm, anyone here can tell me if he can open the link http://planet.pugscode.org/
12:40 kolibrie opened right up
12:40 xinming :-S
12:40 xinming The damn GFW...
12:40 xinming Greate FireWall..
12:41 xinming seen autrijus
12:42 xinming !seen autrijus
12:42 xinming seenbot isn't up. :-(
12:42 jabbot has joined #perl6
12:42 gugod jabbot was offline due to some network problem :/
12:50 theorbtwo Any paid livejournal users about?
12:50 * theorbtwo would like to subscribe to http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/rss20.xml || http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/rss10.xml
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12:52 rafl_ autrijus: ping
12:52 rafl_ is now known as rafl
12:58 xinming hmm, by the way, in perl 5, we use ` ` to capture the output from the command we run, how about perl 6? q:x ?
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13:04 kolibrie xinming: that's what it looks like, from S02
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13:21 gaal kolibrie: ping
13:21 rafl gaal: ping
13:21 gaal rafl: pong
13:22 rafl gaal: Could you please try the -4 packages at http://perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/ ? Especially libghc6-pugs-dev.
13:22 gaal rafl: only in about 6 hrs.
13:22 gaal (sorry)
13:23 rafl gaal: That's fine. Thanks. I doubt that version will already be uploaded until then ;-)
13:23 gaal heh, if feather ran Xen you'd be able to test there ;-)
13:24 rafl Well, I'm able to test there. It run's debian.
13:24 rafl I'm simply not sure if I screw up the current pugs installation with that.
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13:37 kolibrie gaal: pong
13:37 gaal kolibrie: hi, you were looking for me a while ago on feather?
13:37 kolibrie days ago
13:37 gaal yes
13:37 kolibrie I was having IRC problems, all figured out now
13:38 gaal rafl: Xen gives you a really virtual machine
13:38 gaal kolibrie: okies :)
13:38 kolibrie thanks :)
13:38 gaal np :)
13:38 rafl gaal: I know. How mature is it yet?
13:39 gaal I haven't used it myself, but have it from reliable sources that it's very good :)
13:42 rafl Well, convince Juerd then. :-)
13:42 rafl But I think a simple chroot would be enough. But I'm too lame.
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13:50 gaal It isn't without work for him ;-)
13:52 rafl But without work for you, just bug him till he installs it! :-)
13:53 gaal hahaha, well, you'll be the primary enjoyer of this, as is my duty to remind you, which itself is even less work for me. ;-)
13:55 rafl You have no idea how lazy I am, do you? :-)
13:56 rafl Is kane doing IRC?
13:56 rafl (The 6pan guy autrijus refered to somewhere)
14:02 Juerd rafl: On magnet, yes.
14:02 Juerd 15:42 < gaal> rafl: Xen gives you a really virtual machine
14:02 Juerd 15:47 < rafl> But I think a simple chroot would be enough. But I'm too lame.
14:02 Juerd Yes, very probably a chroot is enough.
14:03 Juerd I'm not going to use hardware sharing thingies any time soon
14:03 rafl Juerd: magnet -v
14:03 Juerd Their impact on overall system performance is much greater than programs running in a chroot, and the security risks are greater than those of a standard password scheme
14:04 Juerd rafl: irc.perl.org
14:04 rafl Thanks.
14:04 Juerd This is where #parrot lives, too
14:04 rafl Jos Boumans, right?
14:04 Juerd Yep
14:05 Juerd Those questions are always easily answered by CPAN:
14:05 Juerd http://search.cpan.org/~KANE/
14:05 Juerd Has the full name in large, somewhat friendly letters
14:06 rafl Ah, the CPANPLUS guy. I remember..
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14:26 Jooon rafl: he gave a good talk on CPANPLUS and package managers and described the proof of concept project http://debian.pkgs.cpan.org/
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14:28 integral hmm, would be neat to run dpkg+apt on non-deb systems just to manage perl modules
14:28 rafl Indeed.
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14:31 integral hmm, I'm sure I've heard someone else suggest this, but I can't remember who
14:35 Juerd There's more than one way to not care. -- lwall
14:36 theorbtwo Oooh, http://debian.pkgs.cpan.org/ looks nice.
14:37 * Supaplex looksies
14:39 Supaplex humm, nice alternative to dh-make-perl --build --cpan my::module ; dpkg -i libmy-moduleperl*.deb
14:40 Supaplex suprized he didn't mention that part
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14:49 xinming hmm, can class attribute has initial value assign to it?
14:49 xinming just lile `class A { has $.x = 3; };`
14:49 wolverian yes
14:50 xinming if so, then, `my A $o .= new( x => 7 );` which value should x be? 3 or 7?
14:50 integral 7 hopefully...
14:50 integral or an error
14:50 xinming Ok, going to write the test. :-)
14:51 integral hmm, it should be the former,  for the latter you could just make it $:x
14:51 xinming ingy: hmm, In my opinion, It should be 7, and if we declare a attribute as `has $.x is ro =3`, this might raise the error
14:52 xinming well, why I use dot here, is because we wish to get the value outside...
14:53 xinming errr.... might be wrong, the default public attribute is ro by default...
14:53 xinming :-s
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15:05 cognominal seen autrijus
15:05 jabbot cognominal: autrijus was seen 6 hours 36 minutes 11 seconds ago
15:11 xinming hmm, lives_ok { class A { has $.a = 1 } }, " ... "; this will abort the test....
15:11 xinming anyone have a clue?
15:12 sili has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
15:12 xinming autrijus ever said lives_ok is used for testing if the "feature" is working in pugs...
15:12 xinming But...
15:12 xinming :-(
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15:50 svnbot6 r7744 | yiyihu++ | Test for class attribute initializement, It's not implemented and not specified, will finish the test in the future.
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16:07 wolverian Supaplex, except -dh-make-perl doesn't do dependencies automatically, I think
16:07 wolverian Supaplex, (from CPAN, anyway.)
16:08 theorbtwo I think it does, but I don't know.
16:08 theorbtwo http://debian.pkgs.cpan.org/ does, though.
16:12 wolverian right
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16:21 Jooon dh-make-perl figures out dependencies by checking for debian packages that you have installed, so if you build and install everything in the right order of the dependencies, it will sort of figure them out
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16:24 Supaplex it behaves pretty well in my experience, but I haven't been very demanding of it.
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16:28 rafl Juerd: ping
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16:53 stevan fglock__: ping
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17:46 Juerd rafl: pong
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17:48 rafl Juerd: I just talked to kane. Kind of nice. We want to create website/wiki/mailinglist for 6pan. May we use perlcabal/feather for that?
17:48 Juerd rafl: Until it uses substantial resources, of course, go ahead.
17:49 Juerd Do note that there currently are no backups.
17:49 Juerd You will want to synch with at least one other source.
17:49 Juerd source/target
17:49 Juerd rafl: The name of the box is feather, by the way
17:50 rafl Juerd: OK. I don't want an own webserver for it. Is it OK to modify your apache config to serve 6pan.perlcabal.org/6pan.feather.perl6.nl?
17:50 rafl Maybe you want to change it yourself?
17:51 nothingmuch rafl: ping ingy about this stuff
17:51 rafl nothingmuch: Why?
17:51 nothingmuch he has freepan going
17:51 nothingmuch he has code that can be shared
17:51 nothingmuch and experience
17:51 nothingmuch and ideas
17:52 nothingmuch but more for the lower level stuff than the metadata aware stuff
17:52 rafl nothingmuch: OK.
17:52 rafl integral: ping
17:52 rafl Err..
17:52 rafl ingy: ping
17:52 Juerd rafl: Actually, I prefer the global apache to be very generic and standard, with no vhosts.
17:53 Juerd rafl: Setting up your own is done within a minute. What are your objections?
17:53 rafl Juerd: I don't like feather.perl6.nl:86213
17:53 Juerd rafl: Then request an IP
17:53 Juerd We can get at most 4. This seems important enough.
17:54 Juerd An IP makes other things easier too.
17:54 rafl --verbose please.
17:54 Juerd A box can have multiple IPs
17:54 Juerd So can this.
17:54 ingy rafl: pong
17:54 Juerd I just have to bind 194.145.200.127
17:54 rafl Juerd: Of course.
17:54 Juerd And you just have to use a Listen directive
17:54 rafl Juerd: Ah, OK.
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17:55 Juerd rafl: Want it?
17:56 rafl Juerd: I fear I won't get an IP address for free, will I?
17:56 Juerd You will
17:56 Juerd We already got assigned this one :)
17:57 Juerd I just didn't want to bind it before it got actual use
17:57 Juerd (Well, not too long before, anyway)
17:57 rafl Well, then: yes!
17:57 Juerd OK
17:57 Juerd This sponsorship is complete and thorough, don't worry
17:57 Juerd The only thing we do have to worry about is bandwith
17:57 rafl How much bandwidth does it require currenyly? What are the limits?
17:58 Riwers has joined #perl6
17:58 nothingmuch ingy: how's Test::Base going? ;-)
17:58 Riwers is there a release date for perl 6?
17:58 Juerd rafl: Bound
17:58 ingy nothingmuch: I use it every day
17:58 nothingmuch what about applying patches to it?
17:58 rafl ingy: I just talked with kane about 6pan. Maybe you're also interested in it. I think I'll setup a kwiki for it in some minutes.
17:58 Juerd rafl: Bandwidith stats are unknown, because the tracking system was broken. This is our luck, because someone had been using a lot.
17:59 ingy rafl: Christmas Day
17:59 rafl Err.
17:59 ingy Riwers: Christmas Day
17:59 Juerd rafl: We should stay under 150 GB/mo, but I understand that 300 GB/mo is acceptable.
17:59 ingy rafl: cool
17:59 Riwers has left
18:00 rafl Juerd: Well, that seems possible, isn't it?
18:00 Juerd rafl: Certainly
18:00 rafl ingy: Or maybe you want to do that? I guess you're a bit more familar with kwiki than I am..
18:00 Juerd rafl: But not if someone uses feather as a temporary staging area for their home machine data while they reinstall it :)
18:00 Juerd rafl: This is history, though
18:00 nothingmuch ingy: did you apply that patch?
18:00 ingy rafl: 6pan.kwiki.org?
18:00 ingy nothingmuch: I forget
18:00 ingy did I?
18:01 Juerd rafl: I don't really like the name 6pan, by the way
18:01 rafl ingy: I thought of 6pan.perlcabal.org
18:01 nothingmuch i don't know... link to svn?
18:01 rafl Juerd: Me as well. better ideas?
18:01 Juerd rafl: It cannot be an identifier in Perl, and the expansion makes little sense
18:01 Juerd rafl: modules.perl6.nl?
18:01 ingy nothingmuch: do you have space for me in .il?
18:01 Juerd rafl: The actual project's name can be anything, of course :)
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18:01 Juerd rafl: cpam, central perl archive of modules :)
18:02 Juerd pronounced: spam
18:02 nothingmuch ingy: we are planning on staying in cabins, i think
18:02 nothingmuch either way I will be staying at gaal's
18:02 Juerd though n-- seems a step back
18:02 meatwad random: is pugs the only implementation of perl6?
18:02 nothingmuch since I live 1.5 hrs away
18:02 Juerd cpao
18:02 Juerd (cpan++)
18:02 ingy nothingmuch: what is this for?
18:02 meatwad *only live, working, in the wild
18:02 rafl Juerd: I would like something that's easily associated with cpan better.
18:02 nothingmuch the patch?
18:02 ingy I meant in general
18:02 nothingmuch or the .il at YAPC?
18:02 nothingmuch oh, hackathon
18:02 Juerd rafl: Of course; I'm not entirely serious
18:03 ingy I just meant to live
18:03 nothingmuch oh
18:03 nothingmuch i guess, yeah
18:03 nothingmuch not at my house, we don't have the space
18:03 Juerd rafl: cpan6?
18:03 ingy I did not know of a hackathon/yapc
18:03 nothingmuch but i could build you some shelter in our lawn
18:03 rafl Juerd: cpam is better, imho. Let's use 6pan for now. It's refered to in several places already.
18:03 Juerd rafl: Okay
18:03 nothingmuch autrijus and larry will be there, ingy
18:03 meatwad sixpan, cool
18:03 Juerd rafl: I'll get you 6pan.perl6.nl, so you can move it later, independently from feather
18:04 rafl sixpan is better than 6pan, indeed. Lets use that!
18:04 Juerd Ah, yes!
18:04 Juerd good one.
18:04 rafl Juerd: sixpan, please? :-)
18:04 meatwad ...?
18:04 Juerd rafl: You now have sixpan.perl6.nl
18:05 meatwad que esta 'sixpan.perl6.nl' ?
18:05 Juerd rafl: I don't maintain perlcabal, though
18:05 ingy we should just do this under freepan...
18:06 Juerd rafl: I'll add this to the mail rcpthosts too
18:06 AlivesWrk has joined #perl6
18:06 ingy why limit solutions to perl6?
18:06 Juerd rafl: So you can get mail on $USER@sixpan.perl6.nl
18:06 AlivesWrk what did meatwad just say?
18:06 Juerd ingy: I can think of several reasons, but please let's discuss that some other time
18:07 meatwad brian ingerson? of yaml fame?
18:07 Juerd In short: I Think freepan is a wonderful idea, but impractical
18:07 ingy what things specifically are not practical?
18:08 ingy yaml has no fame
18:08 * stevan asks ingy for his autograph
18:08 * ingy pees in a cup
18:08 meatwad why put down a great idea. i've never used it but it seems autosome
18:08 meatwad *awesome
18:08 * meatwad barfs
18:08 ingy thanks
18:08 * stevan is glad ingy is living with nothingmuch and not him *yuk*
18:08 rafl ingy: Because sixpan currently aims to develop a new metadata/building/packaging system based on dpkg that shall be used with perl6. It can be generalized to something that's also suitable for other things too later, though.
18:09 Juerd ingy: Size and culture.
18:09 Juerd ingy: Really, not now.
18:09 ingy Juerd: parse error
18:09 Juerd rafl: feaher now accepts mail on sixpan.perl6.nl
18:09 Juerd ingy: That'll have to do then
18:09 stevan rafl: some of that system needs to be embeded in the language itself IMO
18:09 rafl Juerd: Thanks.
18:09 ingy Juerd: I'm lost
18:09 Juerd rafl: So you can use [email@hidden.address]
18:09 stevan because we need to be able to load "use DBI-0.1.0-cpan:INGY"
18:10 Juerd rafl: It's not a vhost, so I'm not getting generic aliases like webmaster@ and stuff :)
18:10 rafl stevan: Some more details, please?
18:10 ingy hi stevan
18:10 stevan hey ingy :)
18:11 nothingmuch ingy: please apply the damn patch already
18:11 nothingmuch otherwise if you live here i'm buying a timer for our sprinklers
18:11 Juerd rafl: Acme::Intraweb
18:11 AlivesWrk jihad perl!
18:12 AlivesWrk rah rah ruby!!
18:12 ingy nothingmuch: ok...
18:12 stevan rafl:  perl6 (the executable) will need to load "use DBI-0.1.0-cpan:RAFL" from somewhere,.. and the old method of loading a module (s!::!/!) just wont really work anymore
18:13 theocrite has quit IRC ("Leaving")
18:13 Juerd lwall++
18:14 rafl stevan: Right..
18:15 AlivesWrk has left
18:16 rafl Juerd: Could you please make the default apache not listen on 194.145.200.127?
18:18 wolverian Juerd, was that lwall++ for his reply to TSa? :)
18:22 PerlJam wolverian: If not, I'm lwall++ just for that
18:22 PerlJam lwall++ and again
18:22 PerlJam lwall++ and again
18:22 PerlJam His last line sums up my response to many of TSa's posts.
18:23 Juerd wolverian: I shouldn't answer that
18:23 Juerd rafl: Yejs
18:23 Juerd rafl: s/j//
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18:23 Juerd rafl: Done
18:24 rafl Juerd: Thanks!
18:24 rafl http://sixpan.perl6.nl/ ;-)
18:25 Juerd :)
18:25 nothingmuch has quit IRC ("Lost terminal")
18:26 lisppaste3 spinclad pasted "libghc6-pugs-dev 6.2.10-4: install failed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/12894
18:28 spinclad rafl: pong  # install report up
18:29 rafl spinclad: That's a bug I'm aware of. I don't know a good way to resolve it without modifying the .installed-pkg-config.
18:29 rafl spinclad: Should work if /usr/local/include exists.
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18:32 rafl Juerd: What's the next CPAN mirror for feather?
18:32 meatwad has joined #perl6
18:33 Juerd next?
18:33 rafl The nearest.
18:34 wolverian PerlJam, me too. :)
18:35 Juerd There probably are some in the same building, or at least the same city, but I really haven't charted this yet.
18:35 ingy rafl: so do you want sixpan.kwiki.org?
18:35 Juerd ingy: Hm, what's the poit in having kwiki be really tremendously easy to install, if even that isn't needed? :)
18:35 meatwad i just want to say... it warms my heart that i could help /w 'sixpan' even though i have no idea what you guys are talking about
18:35 Juerd point
18:36 Juerd meatwad: cpan for perl 6
18:36 meatwad why not use cpan...?
18:36 Maddingue has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
18:36 meatwad odd that cpan would be tied to perl5 now that i think about it...
18:37 ingy Juerd: for the 3rd time today I have no idea what point you are making
18:37 integral *blink*
18:37 Maddingue has joined #perl6
18:37 Juerd ingy: If you install kwiki for others, there is little point left in making kwiki so easy to install :)
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18:37 Juerd ingy: Were the other two both related to freepan?
18:38 obra ingy!
18:38 theorbtwo meatwad: 1: While we're at it, we thought we could solve some other problems.
18:38 theorbtwo 2: 6pan really wants to have some extra functionality to work well with perl6, for example thinking that foo's Bar::Baz is a different module to Quxx's Bar::Baz.
18:39 ingy Juerd: I'm not sure about the other two, since I could not contextually parse them, and you refused to clarify. I am offering to *host* rafl's wiki which has little to do with installation. Or maybe that was just a troll.
18:39 ingy hi obra!
18:39 ingy long time no obra
18:39 geoffb has joined #perl6
18:40 obra indeed. longtime no ingy
18:40 mrborisguy is there any plans to have a "c*an" that holds more than just perl6 modules?  a "c-parrot-an"?
18:40 Juerd ingy: If I refused, it was re freepan, because I don't feel like discussing such things today
18:40 Juerd ingy: And yes, the kwiki stuff wasn't meant serious at all, hence the ":)"s
18:42 mrborisguy so if there's some genious ruby or python programmer, I can still use that person's modules?
18:42 mrborisguy and can get them from the central parrot repository?
18:43 theorbtwo mrborisguy: Well, yes, that'd be nice, but such a thing would have to deal with lots of cultures.
18:43 PerlJam mrborisguy: any language that targets parrot will have relatively easy access to the routines written in any other language that targets parrot.
18:43 PerlJam for some definition of "easy"
18:43 theorbtwo Us perl people can't decide on how a distribution should be put together -- there's ExtUtils::MakeMaker, and Module::Build, and ...
18:44 theorbtwo If we start throwing in more languages, the problem keeps getting harder.
18:44 theorbtwo So yes, it'd be very nice.
18:44 meatwad theorbtwo: why would people name modules the same
18:44 integral need a sort of TAP for building things...
18:44 mrborisguy theorbtwo: ah yes, that is a good point
18:44 meatwad altho it does seem like a whoever gets there first kinda race
18:44 theorbtwo meatwad: It's speced behavior that perl6 can deal with it, but I also hope it isn't common.
18:45 theorbtwo (And IIRC Larry indicated recently he also hopes it doesn't happen much.)
18:46 meatwad to juggle two modules of the same name...?
18:47 meatwad in my limited view of the universe, just sounds like another namespace... Meatwad::Awesome::Module vs TheOrbTwo::Awesome::Module
18:48 theorbtwo http://dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S11.html
18:49 theorbtwo Under "Versioning".
18:49 theorbtwo use Awesome::Module--cpan:JMASTROS;
18:49 meatwad domo orubo san
18:50 theorbtwo Oh, sorry, use Awesome::Module-(any)-cpan:JMASTROS if I didn't want to specify the version.
18:50 theorbtwo "domo orubo san"?
18:51 meatwad "thx mr the orb"
18:51 theorbtwo Ah.
18:51 meatwad sounds like a very crazy yet flexible solution... (not much experience/exposure to module development)
18:51 meatwad faux japanese.
18:52 * meatwad is a fraud
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18:53 theorbtwo Larry's like that.
18:53 theorbtwo Crazy, yet flexable.
18:53 theorbtwo I suspect his japanese is better then yours, though.
18:53 meatwad i bet. i really admire the whole linguistic angle to perl
18:54 meatwad i don't know that many other languages have that
18:54 meatwad other than matz being a perl fan
18:54 meatwad i'm sorry i don't know anything crazy about perl6 specifically
18:55 meatwad other than that ther'es this thing called pugs
18:55 meatwad and that i should look forward to any() and all()
18:55 wolverian and, for an example, static type inferencing. :)
18:56 * meatwad is lost and hungry
18:56 * meatwad goes to lunch to meditate
18:56 Juerd wolverian: Accept, please, that not everyone thinks it's a good idea.
18:57 wolverian Juerd, oh, of course I do.
18:57 Juerd What is a very good thing to us, may be very frightening to others
18:57 wolverian Juerd, I was just giving an example, not necessarily what I approve of.
18:57 Juerd The word optional isn't that.
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19:05 spinclad rafl: with /usr/local/include (and lib) in place, the install succeeds!
19:05 rafl spinclad: OK. I'll try to convince Cabal not to include that directory in the next release.
19:06 * spinclad cheers
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19:09 gaal hey. apart from debian and gentoo, what other distros carry pugs?
19:10 obra http://www.freshports.org/lang/pugs/
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19:11 gaal thanks. is that good just for FreeBSD or perhaps other BSDs as well?
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19:13 gaal I'm not all that familiar with BSD; do users just cvs up and pkg_add it?
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19:14 rafl Juerd: feather doesn't listen on perlcabal.org anymore. I think that breaks stuff.
19:15 rafl Juerd: No, apache seems to be down.
19:15 rafl I started it. Works again.
19:18 Juerd Oh, hm
19:18 Juerd Perhaps it doesn't support hostname:port syntax
19:19 Juerd No, it must support it, otherwise it would not be running now
19:19 Juerd I have no idea why it was down.
19:23 * Juerd just found a very interesting memory leak in linux
19:24 Juerd I could read chunks of memory through /dev/sdb
19:24 Juerd Which was supposed to be a USB mass storage device
19:24 Juerd It had a broken drive in it, that I admit, and I didn't expect things to work.
19:24 Juerd But I was amazed I could read it without error
19:24 Juerd And later I realized I was looking at RAM, not the contents of the disk
19:24 Juerd But the LED blinked as I read from the drive
19:25 theorbtwo Umm... funky.
19:25 Juerd And I could read exactly as much as the drive was large. The data repeated.
19:25 Juerd Now to find a broken drive to reproduce the phenomenon.
19:25 spinclad so the driver claimed, or thought, that the drive had actually filled its buffer?
19:26 Juerd spinclad: I don't know about buffers
19:26 Juerd It claimed that these parts of RAM were on the drive.
19:26 Juerd Read with cat, dd, less and hexdump
19:26 eric256_ has joined #perl6
19:28 spinclad .oO ( reason for the kernel to clear buffers before they're read into? )
19:29 spinclad .oO ( the risks of trusting your DMA )
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19:48 gaal this won't work here, but try it at home:
19:48 beppu has joined #perl6
19:48 gaal ?eval use perl5:Carp; Carp.confess("ouch")
19:48 evalbot_7744 pugs: *** No compatible subroutine found: "&require_perl5"     at Prelude.pm line 61, column 30-59
19:48 gaal at home what you'll see is a "Carpouch" confession
19:48 gaal because this was called as a (class) method.
19:49 gaal that's fair enough, I guess; but Carp::confess doesn't work.
19:49 gaal (No compatible subroutine found: "&Carp::confess")
19:49 gaal So there's no way to call fully qualified functions into Perl 5 ?
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19:53 gaal rafl: pugs -e, pugs interactive, use perl5, eval :lang<perl5> all work.
19:54 gaal so did upgrade from -1 .debs.
19:54 gaal remind me, what should i test with the libghc6-pugs-dev package?
19:55 gaal btw, i could not test upgrade from that one because -1 used to depend on a version of GHC I no longer have.
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20:05 rafl gaal: Just that it installs fine and ghc-pkg describe Pugs gives some output.
20:08 gaal does.
20:08 gaal :-)
20:09 rafl Great.
20:09 rafl Thank you.
20:09 gaal hmm. the pugs deb probably shouldn't include perl6.vim though, should it?
20:10 rafl Where should it go then?
20:10 gaal -doc? Not sure.
20:11 theorbtwo I don't really see any reason it shouldn't.
20:11 gaal hack and run.pod are in /usr/share/perl5/pugs so that perldoc would find them?
20:12 gaal theorbtwo: rafl went into some trouble to making only the minimum executable stuff go in the basic pugs package. why shoudl something that's quite optional and that is for an editor some people don't even have installed be included there?
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20:13 theorbtwo It's small, and there's little reason for a sepperate package for every tiny little file.
20:13 gaal hmmm, also, in pugs-modules, i get things like
20:13 gaal /usr/share/perl6/5.8/WTemplate.pm
20:14 Juerd theorbtwo: Are you new to Debian? :)
20:14 gaal ie everything not put in perl5 is put in perl6/5.8
20:14 rafl gaal: agreed. But I don't know where it should go then.
20:14 Juerd rafl: In vim.
20:14 Juerd rafl: When the time comes, Bram will surely include it.
20:14 * rafl mails Bram
20:15 gaal rafl++
20:15 Juerd Indeed, rafl++
20:17 gaal rafl: so the 5.8 stuff, it's wrong, right? :/
20:18 rafl gaal: What's wrong with it?
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20:21 gaal why is there a 5.8 there?
20:22 gaal this isn't pugs 5.8
20:25 rafl perl6 pre 6.0.0.0.0
20:26 eric256_ mrborisguy - catalog_tests.pl now doesn't use TreeBuilder for tests... ;)
20:26 rafl So the real perl6 isn't confused if there's 6.2.10 installed.
20:27 Juerd 5.8 can be confused with Perl 5
20:27 Juerd 6.anything can be confused with Perl 6
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20:27 rashakil find an integer between 5 and 6, and you're set.
20:28 Juerd I suggest 1006.x or 1.x
20:28 integral 0.something?
20:28 integral 1.x will be confused with perl1 or punie
20:28 Juerd 1006 will not be confused.
20:28 integral but is > 6
20:28 Juerd And it still has the real version number somewhere
20:28 Juerd integral: This isn't Perl, it's Pugs.
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20:28 Juerd At this point, I don't think we should consider any of this Perl 6.
20:29 rafl Juerd: Why? It is in /usr/lib/perl6? that won't confuse perl5.
20:29 Juerd Including the modules, because syntax is still changing
20:29 integral Juerd: then why not use pugs' version number but say prefixed with "pugs-"
20:29 Juerd rafl: There are Perl 5 Perl6 modules.
20:29 Juerd rafl: It's confusing enough, IMO
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20:29 integral /usr/lib/perl6/pugs-...;  if all perl6 interpreters do that, they can't clash either
20:29 Juerd integral: Modules shouldn't be interpreter specific
20:30 integral hmm?  what about modules with inline haskell.
20:30 svnbot6 r7745 | eric256++ | catalog_tests.pl - fixed so it doesn't use TreeBuilder for the test files, now we can skin them better with templates, this will let use highlight borken tests easier
20:30 rafl Juerd: Yes, but they go into /usr/lib/perl5/Perl6 not /usr/lib/perl6/5.8/
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20:30 integral you have inline haskell for pugs,  inline parrot for official perl6, inline Fortran for perl6trans
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20:31 gaal inline Z80A for mad people...
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20:31 gaal can version numbers be negative? :)
20:32 gaal ...or imaginary?
20:32 Juerd rafl: If you don't see the confusing bit about this, it's probably me.
20:33 gaal fwiw, I thought some automatic tool truncated it from my p5 verison string, which is of course why I thought it was wrong.
20:36 gaal maybe this is wacky, but how about 5.99.6.28.10?
20:36 gaal okay, bad idea :)
20:36 Juerd .99s are awful
20:36 gaal that looks like an SNMP oid anyway
20:36 autrijus please don't do that... I learned from PAR days that .99 is Very Bad Idea
20:36 gaal hello autrijus :)
20:36 autrijus greetings lambdacamels :)
20:37 gaal PAR got to .99? I thought it was around the 80ies now?
20:37 clkao greetings, Tang-sama
20:37 autrijus gaal: no, I used to release 0.72_97
20:37 autrijus as a "rc-3"
20:37 autrijus then _98, _99, then 0.73
20:37 autrijus "rc -3"
20:37 autrijus not "rc3"
20:38 gaal ah yes
20:38 vigen what is PAR?
20:38 gaal so version numbers can in fact be negative.
20:38 gaal vigen: a Very Cool Module.
20:38 autrijus vigen: it does that JAR does to Java, and comes with a "pp" that turns perl programs into standalone executables
20:38 gaal vigen: par.perl.org; to Perl what JAR is to Java.
20:39 autrijus par.perl.org is currently offline again :/
20:39 autrijus autrijus.org somehow went down again
20:39 vigen thnx
20:39 Juerd vigen: PAR is the most rocking and equally scary yet useful piece of Perl 5.
20:39 autrijus vigen: it was one of my more popular modules during my hyperdistraction days of 100+ projects
20:40 autrijus sadly, since I've then passed into hyperfocus days, it's now maintained by users -- I hand metacommitter bits to practically everyone and do a release when asked
20:41 Juerd autrijus: That is sad, but I do think the choice consciously or not) was better than we could have hoped for
20:41 meatwad perlcc != par?
20:41 * meatwad lacks understanding
20:41 autrijus meatwad: no, one (mostly) breaks, and one (mostly) works
20:42 autrijus Juerd: true
20:42 autrijus clkao: greetings :)
20:42 clkao how's your half-baked tailor support?
20:42 autrijus clkao: totally swapped out
20:42 clkao any snapshot?
20:42 autrijus clkao: but I discovered ffsdrv
20:43 autrijus so strangely I'm in win32 now to work on $work
20:43 clkao wtf?
20:43 clkao ah. evil
20:43 gaal hmm, both clkao and autrijus online at once. this is the time to repeat the p5emb question:
20:43 r0nny_ yo
20:43 gaal how do i call a fully qualified p5 function? eg. Carp::confess
20:44 robkinyon gaal: __PERL5__::Carp::confess(), but only after doing the hokey-pokey
20:44 meatwad Carp::confess($sins); # le cheim
20:44 gaal (Carp.confess is wrong, it's not a class method)
20:44 autrijus gaal: Carp.can('confess').()
20:44 gaal meatwad: that doesn't work in pugs though :)
20:44 gaal autrijus: lol
20:44 autrijus or even
20:45 autrijus our &confess := Carp.can('confess')
20:45 gaal yes
20:45 gaal of course, that breaks runtimely-@ISA-modifying classes. *duck*
20:46 autrijus yeah.
20:46 gaal robkinyon: how does that work?
20:46 robkinyon gaal: LOL
20:46 autrijus embed only goes that far
20:47 autrijus retargetting is the future
20:47 autrijus (if not that p5 and p6 are so extremely dynamic, embedding would've been fine.)
20:47 gaal yeah. btw I'm writing an article on Perl 6 for TPR.
20:47 autrijus I saw the call for article
20:48 autrijus gaal++ # volunteer
20:48 Juerd gaal++  # doing something HARD
20:48 gaal autrijus: thanks. Juerd: don't say that :)
20:48 * autrijus watches the _other_ therapy session going on in dan's blog
20:48 Juerd Exciting and informing people without overwhelming them is not exactly easy, gaal
20:48 Juerd autrijus: url?
20:49 autrijus Juerd: http://www.sidhe.org/~dan/blog/archives/000435.html#comments
20:49 Juerd autrijus: danke
20:49 autrijus np
20:49 gaal Juerd: yeah, but I practice that on occasion. Already gave a couple of talks in my local pm group.
20:52 Juerd autrijus: Oh, wow, many more comments since I last read
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20:55 eric256_ alot of negative people in that thread. /me loves when basicaly anoymouse people bash volunteer leaders. ;) its not like this is a paying gig for anyone...is it?
20:56 Juerd Dan got a grant for his work in 2002
20:57 eric256_ i've never associated the word 'grant' with enough money to actualy not have a job...or is that the case here?
20:57 autrijus and Leo/Chip is under grant too
20:57 autrijus eric256_: the grant sum is supposed to be their full time job.
20:57 eric256_ cool
20:57 Juerd eric256_: Have you ever donated?
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20:58 eric256_ nope
20:58 integral hmm, are allison and pmichaud the only people working on this compiler tools thing?
20:58 Juerd eric256_: Please consider doing so
20:59 Juerd eric256_: https://donate.perlfoundation.org/index.pl?node=Fund+Drive+Details&amp;selfund=2
20:59 autrijus integral: currently yes, though luqui helps with L::AG too
20:59 eric256_ certainly wil when money comes avialable...just bought a house. still paying off bills from when we lived in CA...way to expensive there ;)
20:59 integral autrijus: ah! that's a parrot version of L::AG I assume?
20:59 autrijus integral: luqui started with p6 version
21:00 integral I can't figure out though if they're actually bothering to commit any of the stuff publically in the repos
21:00 eric256_ 90k in 12 months.../me begins to expect more decisions from our fearless leaders.  are any @larry funded?
21:00 autrijus I think allison is working on a parrot port yes
21:00 autrijus integral: that is annoying
21:00 clkao autrijus: so what's new? i thought you have no more .tw work!
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21:00 autrijus eric256_: $Larry was funded, but is no longer
21:00 integral I'm not sure what I could be doing to help with any of these bits without the current code :-/
21:01 autrijus integral: the compiler tool roadmap in particular I really'd like to see committed to public
21:01 autrijus integral: exactly my problem
21:01 autrijus so. :/
21:01 eric256_ i must admit that knowing people were getting paid and we're still 5 years into this with no real end near is more aggrevating than thinking the whole thing is volunteer.
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21:02 Juerd eric256_: Do you know how long it took to get Perl 5 where it is now?
21:02 autrijus eric256_: hence, people needs therapy :)
21:03 Juerd eric256_: If not, consult perlhist
21:03 * Khisanth kicks DNS
21:03 autrijus unrealistic expectation bad, having fun good
21:03 clkao what's the big deal?
21:03 Juerd autrijus++
21:03 Juerd clkao: impatience, summarized
21:03 autrijus _encouraging_ unrealistic expectation also bad, so it goes bothways
21:03 * clkao goes bathways
21:04 Khisanth hrm well CPAN has been around for 10 years so at least 11 for Perl? :)
21:04 Khisanth err perl
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21:04 Juerd eric256_: Seen the answer yet?
21:04 Odin- has joined #perl6
21:05 Juerd eric256_: Anyway, all that is being done again, and it has to be GOOD too this time
21:05 Khisanth has joined #perl6
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21:05 Juerd eric256_: And there's a lot that Perl 6 will support that Perl 5 didn't.
21:05 Juerd eric256_: Also, design took a long time and is still going on. This is a phase that was mostly skipped for Perl 1..5.
21:06 Khisanth is it just me or does 5.10 seem to be acquiring some stuff from perl6? (was reading the perltodo last night)
21:07 autrijus Khisanth: it is conscious, yes
21:07 eric256_ juerd. i understand all that, and i'm not unhappy with where things are (though they seem currently stalled)...but where is autrijus's grant for pugs? or any other developer on pugs? i dunno. volunteer++, paid++, mixing (paid and volunteer)+-+-...
21:07 autrijus eric256_: my grant is given by people who generously provide me shelter and food.
21:07 eric256_ autrijus++ ;)
21:07 autrijus no, seriously :)
21:08 * autrijus is very grateful.
21:08 meatwad has left
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21:08 autrijus and occasionally, a company shows up and says they can pay me airfare to travel to some place to hack with someone
21:08 autrijus eg. with damian at OSDC
21:08 autrijus that too I'm grateful.
21:09 autrijus and in each of those instance I am able to repay with concrete showing-up, discussion and work
21:09 Juerd eric256_: Grants begin with people asking for them, in general
21:09 autrijus so I feel less guilty
21:09 autrijus certainly less so than my cpan signature or i18n grants of tpf
21:09 Juerd eric256_: There are some exceptions, but as I understand, not many
21:09 autrijus which I've been feeling uneasy for a long time
21:09 autrijus as in both cases my work, though performed, was not completely adopted to upstream
21:10 autrijus so I somehow feel cheated people of their donation money
21:10 autrijus though I can't really help much
21:10 autrijus this current travel-around way is much better :)
21:10 Juerd autrijus: Still, though, all this time you invest in Pugs - you must be really rich to keep on living...
21:10 eric256_ tpf seems to have serious cash sitting there ungranted.. autrijus jsut consider them pre-payment for pugs and your debt to tpf evened ;) lol
21:10 autrijus Juerd: on the contrary I'm flat broke :)
21:10 autrijus Juerd: though not without sources for short term gigs
21:11 Juerd autrijus: Exactly... Wouldn't a grant fix this?
21:11 autrijus eric256_: heh, lol
21:11 autrijus Juerd: Paul Erdos never kept money either :) though yes, a grant would fix this, but I'm not sure I am of the getting-grant-money mindset now
21:12 autrijus I'm more of a getting-stable-places-to-hack-without-distraction mindset
21:12 Juerd autrijus: You obviously aren't :) I think many people would love to see their money go to this exceptionally hard working madman :)
21:12 Jooon autrijus: so, whose couch are you planning to crash in february?
21:12 autrijus Jooon: gaal's, incidentally
21:13 Juerd autrijus: Still, though, if the current way of doing things suffices, who are we to complain :)
21:13 autrijus after that I'm not sure... maybe leo's. maybe (gasp) MSR's
21:13 Southen has joined #perl6
21:13 autrijus Juerd: :)
21:13 eric256_ autrijus....i'd feel more comfortable with you getting my donation than almost every other grant listed for the last 5 years... i do wonder with 90k in donations in the last 12 months and only 1 1k grant...where does this money go?  sorry i know this isn't realy the right forum for this
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21:13 rafl http://sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi
21:14 autrijus eric256_: no, there's no right forum anyway :p
21:14 rafl Commends and ideas and especially content is welcome!
21:14 autrijus ooh, rafl++
21:14 autrijus is kane aware of this?
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21:15 Juerd eric256_: There are other things than Perl 6 related grants too, that cost money
21:15 rafl autrijus: Yes, I'm talking to hin for about 5 hours now..
21:15 autrijus rafl: wonderful
21:15 Juerd eric256_: I believe there are some unpublished grants for CPAN modules and stuff like that
21:15 autrijus oh and one for PPI
21:15 Juerd I'm not sure, though.
21:15 autrijus and one for pVoice, etc
21:16 autrijus not sure which else, though the tax return is now published
21:16 eric256_ autrijus http://www.perlfoundation.org/gc/grants/2005.html
21:16 autrijus so at least there's accountability
21:16 gaal autrijus: you'd be happy to hear that i'm buying an extra futon, which will probably be more comfortable than the hammock (though the latter is proven to attract my cat)
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21:16 autrijus gaal: *happy*
21:17 gaal :-)
21:19 eric256_ 2003 tax return shows 172k in revenue,- 145k in services but only 90k in grants. leaving 55k that just wandered off? lol.  plus the published grants don't total anywhere near that. /me decided not to look much harder for now.
21:19 eric256_ ahhh...50k in confrences...i assum tpf funds YPC's?
21:20 autrijus yes, tpf funds YAS which funds YAPCs; also perlmonks
21:21 eric256_ yea the tax return is actualy for YAS.  ahh and the return seems to detail grants.../me starts to feel mildly better...been around accountants too long and now i'm paranoid of everyone....everyone is out to cheat you!!! ;)
21:21 Juerd I donated in a somewhat weird way this time, with feather
21:21 Juerd It has replaced my annual $100 donation
21:21 eric256_ feather++ ++ ++ ;) /me uses it everyday
21:21 autrijus Juerd: ditto for me and pugs
21:21 Juerd I think Perl 6 development benefits much more per dollar spent, this way
21:22 rafl News for the Debian people: pugs_6.2.10-4_i386.changes ACCEPTED
21:22 autrijus rafl: ooh
21:22 autrijus rafl++
21:22 Juerd rafl++ debian++
21:22 autrijus (committment to the Right Thing)++
21:22 Juerd commitment to sanity ;)
21:23 gaal woohooo rafl++ :)
21:23 gaal debian++ # indeed
21:23 eric256_ public tax return ++.. /me's fears are someone reduced.
21:23 autrijus Juerd: mm, that reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Autrijus
21:23 rafl Yes, Debian will probably provide the package format for sixpan..
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21:23 Juerd autrijus: :)
21:24 autrijus I guess that no longer applies now...
21:24 Juerd rafl: Doesn't that fix paths too much?
21:24 * autrijus removes the insanity appeal
21:24 rafl Juerd: No.
21:24 Juerd The sanity of this person is known to vary with time ;)
21:25 autrijus :D
21:25 rafl Juerd: You can use dpkg --root for example.
21:25 Juerd rafl: OK
21:25 Juerd oh, fsck
21:25 Juerd 23:30
21:25 Juerd bye.
21:26 rafl Bye Juerd
21:28 autrijus Juerd: see ya
21:30 autrijus integral: good post.
21:30 integral heh, that obvious was it? ;-)
21:30 autrijus :D
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21:50 rafl That's the name of that that WYSIWYG plugin on kwiki.org?
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21:58 r0nny_ ping?
21:58 r0nny_ i got a problem - i wrote "class Foo\n{ <some members> }" and it doesnt like the initial {
21:59 gaal perlbot nopaste
21:59 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
21:59 gaal can you put your code there?
21:59 r0nny_ ok
22:00 eric256_ r0nny_ generaly that error has little to do with the {. just seems to be where class errors get anchored
22:00 r0nny_ btw - acan someone teach the bot to paste the link for the actual channel ?
22:00 r0nny_ oh - it wont like the { if there is a missing ; after a member
22:01 gaal hmm, the url for that is http://sial.org/pbot/perl6 but i don't know how to tell the bot that. :)
22:01 Juerd autrijus: group therapy. haha! :)
22:01 gaal r0nny_: unless that memeber happens to be the last expression in the block ;-)
22:02 r0nny_ is there a short for $self ?
22:03 gaal rafl: http://www.wikiwyg.net/about/ ?
22:04 Juerd r0nny_: Yep, self.
22:04 gaal r0nny_: there's some undecidedness about this. you can name an invocant explicitly
22:04 rafl gaal: No Kwiki plugin for that?
22:04 eric256_ in your method sig you can make $self anything you want.
22:04 Juerd gaal: Current decision is self.
22:04 gaal Juerd: oh right, i forgot
22:04 Juerd eric256_: As long as it's a normal scalar :)
22:04 r0nny_ then i will use the "normal" one
22:04 gaal rafl: kwiki.org uses wikiwyg :)
22:04 r0nny_ my code is supposed to be usable
22:04 eric256_ self aitn much shorter than $self....juerd: yes of course. probably should have mentioned that
22:05 Juerd r0nny_: Not fun? :)
22:05 r0nny_ Juerd: it should be clean
22:05 Juerd r0nny_: Not fun? :)
22:05 r0nny_ its supposed to be developed by other peoples
22:05 r0nny_ so i will be perfectly fine, if i work as "fun" killer
22:06 r0nny_ btw can i do "has rw Hash $.foo" ??
22:10 Juerd You can try, but I don't think you can.
22:11 rafl Juerd: Thought you wanted to go to bed? :-)
22:11 Juerd has Hash $.foo is rw;
22:11 Juerd rafl: All day. Yeah.
22:11 r0nny_ allready found out :/
22:11 Juerd r0nny_: I advise: has %.foo is rw, though
22:11 rafl Juerd: If you're not going to you can comment on http://sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi?BrainStorming :-)
22:11 Juerd rafl: I was actually going home.
22:12 Juerd rafl: Sorry, I'm a bit busy in some personal conversation at this moment, and probably will be for a while, and then will go to bed
22:12 Juerd Tomorrow I will read it
22:12 rafl Of course, thanks.
22:15 joepurl has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
22:16 putter has joined #perl6
22:16 putter stevan: ping?
22:17 putter hi folks.
22:17 gaal hey putter :)
22:19 gaal zzZZZ &
22:19 putter bye gaal &
22:20 * autrijus waves
22:24 putter stevan: ah, never mind, found it.
22:25 dolmen has joined #perl6
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22:30 r0nny_ yo
22:30 r0nny_ how to access member vars ?
22:30 r0nny_ tried $instance.foo, but wont work
22:30 lisppaste3 has joined #perl6
22:31 putter ?eval 3
22:31 evalbot_7745 3
22:32 putter ?eval class C{has $.v} my $o = C.new; $o.v = 3; $o.v
22:32 evalbot_7745 \3
22:32 putter how not work?
22:33 r0nny_ hmm
22:33 putter there are some issues, eg
22:34 * r0nny_ burns never use "my $f is <class>"
22:34 r0nny_ +into his hed
22:34 putter ?eval  class C{has $.v} sub f() { my $o = C.new; $o.v = 3; $o }   f().o
22:34 evalbot_7745 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&o"
22:34 putter ?eval  class C{has $.v} sub f() { my $o = C.new; $o.v = 3; $o }   f().v
22:34 evalbot_7745 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&v"
22:37 Eimi has quit IRC ("Leaving")
22:42 putter you can also look through a smoke and t/oo/attributes/*, eg t/oo/attributes/instance.t, to see what's working.  smokes available at http://m19s28.vlinux.de/cgi-bin/pugs-smokeserv.pl
22:51 rafl Hm.. why are all 6.2.10 release smoke from me?
22:56 putter perhaps smokes are too compute intensive for many people, and its not a high profile activity, so only a few folks do it.  so if they happen not to... your contribution becomes singular. ;)
23:11 r0nny_ will it hurt, to have perl5 + ithreads integrated in pugs ?
23:12 r0nny_ anyone ?
23:14 eric256_ has quit IRC ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
23:14 putter sorry, ?
23:15 r0nny_ i have perl5 with threads enabled, and want to integrate the libs into pugs
23:15 putter oops, I meant "sorry, I don't know".
23:16 dolmen has quit IRC ("Leaving")
23:16 r0nny_ oh ;P
23:16 larsen has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
23:19 putter my v5.8.5 is -Duseithreads and it works fine linked with pugs under  x86_64 FC3.  though I've not actually used the tread ops.  and that may not be what your asking?
23:19 r0nny_ so it will not die in normal operations
23:19 r0nny_ hmm
23:20 r0nny_ thats all that counts atm
23:22 putter :)
23:22 r0nny_ latter i will try if threads kill it
23:22 r0nny_ but atm i dont have to care :)
23:22 r0nny_ make smoke
23:23 Southen has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:24 r0nny_ btw - i saw a yaml thing while compiling - how to use ?
23:25 putter has anyone heard discussion of a "NonProxyObject"?  Ie, Ref, Scalar, and Proxy which delegate heavily are still Objects, but often/usually when you want to add a method to Object, you want them to still deletate it.
23:26 putter re yaml, there's an eval($string,:lang<yaml>), though I've never used it.
23:27 putter ?eval eval("3")
23:27 r0nny_ anyone - is there a interface for the yaml stuff in pugs ?
23:27 evalbot_7745 3
23:27 putter ?eval eval("name: ingy", :lang<yaml>)
23:27 evalbot_7745 {("name" => "ingy"),}
23:28 r0nny_ sweet
23:28 r0nny_ another interface ?
23:28 putter ?eval eval("name: ingy\ncolors:\n - 5\n - 7", :lang<yaml>)
23:28 evalbot_7745 {("colors" => ["5", "7"]), ("name" => "ingy")}
23:28 putter not that I know of.
23:28 r0nny_ can i put files in ?
23:30 r0nny_ well - its 0130 here - time to sleep
23:30 r0nny_ has quit IRC ("sleep")
23:31 putter put files in...?  oh, into eval?  you can slurp() them.  I don't think we have an eval_file builtin.
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23:47 Juerd http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=503167  # exactly what I hoped for
23:47 Juerd It works >:)
23:48 Juerd Schema: answer question very thoroughly, end message with normal signature, sneak in a list of what Perl 6 improves in the topic at hand
23:48 Juerd Okay, now I'm off to bed
23:48 Juerd Bye
23:49 putter bye
23:49 putter :) Juerd++
23:54 putter the line   Sorting by something only requires specifying that something: sort { .key }, %hash, sort { .value }, %hash.  might have been slightly clearer as  sort { .key }, %hash; sort { .value }, %hash.  nifty.
23:59 putter stevan: is there any way in the mm to block inheritance?  ie, "my parent has method foo but I don't".  ideally as "my parent defines various methods, but I don't want any which are defined in role X".  thoughts?

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