Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-28

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:30 gaal putter: except that we do have it working :) (well, not without some hack)
00:30 gaal but i'm not here. zzZZZ &
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02:06 stevan any Bostonians around? In particular MIT people?
02:07 stevan I am trying to find out information about the MIT Little Languages workshop this year
02:09 stevan putter: if you backlog,.. IIRC that is your neck of the woods,.. maybe you know something :)
02:09 ingy stevan: putter == MIT iirc
02:09 stevan putter: If it is happening, and I go, we should meet up
02:10 stevan ingy: yeah I think you are right,.. I know he is in Mass
02:10 ingy he went to MIT
02:10 stevan ah
02:10 ingy at least he had an mit email addy once
02:11 ingy Mitchell Charity. Know him from his many contributions to Inline
02:11 ingy well never met him physicallt
02:11 ingy y
02:12 * stevan wonders how many people ingy *doesn't* know :)
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02:56 buu ME!
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05:05 dduncan ?eval @foo = [2,3]; @bar [10,20]; @foo >>+<< @bar
05:05 dduncan ?eval 1
05:08 dduncan whence goes evalbot?
05:13 QtPlatypus I think it was lost in the last netsplit.
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07:28 dduncan ?eval 1
07:28 evalbot_7755 1
07:28 dduncan ?eval kick it
07:28 evalbot_7755 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&kick"
08:01 dduncan evalbot came back, but svnbot didn't alas
08:01 dduncan well, nightey night
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13:33 r0nny_ yo
13:33 r0nny_ anyone alive ?
13:33 xinming yes.
13:35 r0nny_ any new comments on the SixPanUtils ideas ?
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13:37 xinming r0nny_: Maybe, I am the worng person for you. :-P
13:37 r0nny_ hmm
13:37 r0nny_ maybe
13:41 r0nny_ anyone else any comment ?
13:42 xinming r0nny_: what that is plesae?
13:42 r0nny_ http://sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi?SixPanUtils
13:42 r0nny_ basically cpan utils for perl6
13:43 r0nny_ oh - and the module build utils
13:45 xinming r0nny_: hmm, can we have a option to install module into ~/.perl/perl6/modules such kind of dir?
13:45 r0nny_ read - its allready there ..
13:48 r0nny_ Juerd: got some time ?
13:49 r0nny_ hmm - seems to be away
13:50 r0nny_ well - im going now - latter
13:50 xinming r0nny_: hmm, can module be install into a specified dir?
13:52 r0nny_ xinming: should be easy to manage latter in the process - initial versions might be a bit unflexible about such stuff
13:52 r0nny_ first is to manage globla install, then add user-hope install wich basically should make it flexible enough to install anywhere
13:53 r0nny_ global ;P
13:53 xinming how about multi versions of modules? just like can 1.0 co-exist with 2.0 ?
13:53 r0nny_ im not sure about this
13:54 r0nny_ casue it might create name-collisions
13:55 xinming hmm, perl 6 can choose modules for you if you specify, so,I wanna the module can be co-exist. So that, some module upgrade won't break the whole program which need the module.
13:55 rafl_ Some debian users in here? I've got some parrot packages for you that should be tested.
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13:55 xinming perl6/modules/module-name/versions/module_files.
13:57 r0nny_ xinming: well - how do i tell it wich version to use ?
13:57 xinming rafl_: I am using debian, I'll be glad to be the "laboratory animal"
13:57 rafl_ xinming: Great. Uploading it..
13:58 xinming r0nny_: hmm, in perl 6, if you just specify the name of the module, choose the latest, if with version number is specified, then, choose that one...
13:58 r0nny_ hmm
13:58 r0nny_ then it should be no problem
13:59 rafl_ xinming: http://perlcabal.org/~rafl/debian/
13:59 r0nny_ how does perl manage if u use 2 different modules, and each of them uses a different incombatible version of the same module
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14:01 xinming r0nny_: hmm, why I wish to install to a specified location, is because, we might wish to be the project on a different partition, which is filled of projects, and you need `ln -s` all the modules to a project lib dir, maybe, lib/CPAN sometimes
14:01 xinming rafl_: hold on plz
14:01 eric256_ juerd: ping
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14:02 xinming r0nny_: and the modules has a working version specified for the needed module...
14:02 xinming r0nny_: and prefer to choose the latest if not found.
14:03 xinming hmm, Just guess. :-P
14:03 xinming parrot_0.3.0-1_i386.deb    
14:03 xinming Is this one I should try?
14:04 rafl_ parrot-dev and parrot-doc as well.
14:04 xinming s/this one/this the one/
14:04 xinming ok
14:04 rafl_ It's not really 0.3.0, btw. It's a current svn snapshot.
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14:05 Limbic_Region for anyone interested - http://perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=503589 is a p6 related post on combinatorials and lazy evaluation and what not
14:05 Limbic_Region first p6 specific post I have seen in a while
14:05 Limbic_Region *hint hint*
14:06 xinming rafl_: hmm, Do I have to upgrade to sid? :-(
14:07 rafl_ xinming: I don't know. They're at least built against sid.
14:07 xinming rafl_: I can't install it on testing.
14:08 xinming got the dependency problem.
14:08 rafl_ xinming: What does it complain about?
14:08 xinming dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of parrot:
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14:08 xinming parrot depends on libicu34; however:
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14:08 xinming parrot depends on libstdc++6 (>= 4.0.2-3); however:
14:08 xinming  Version of libstdc++6 on system is 4.0.2-2.
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14:09 xinming and, If I try to apt-get install libcstdc++6 or the needed module, I will also get the dependency problem
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14:09 rafl_ Yes. Nevermind then..
14:10 xinming rafl_ parrot-dev and parrot-doc as well.
14:10 xinming xinming s/this one/this the one/
14:10 xinming oops...
14:10 xinming root@HomePc:/home/xinming# apt-get install -f
14:10 xinming Reading package lists... Done
14:10 xinming Building dependency tree... Done
14:10 xinming Correcting dependencies... Done
14:10 xinming The following extra packages will be installed:
14:10 xinming  libicu34
14:10 xinming The following packages will be REMOVED:
14:10 xinming  parrot
14:10 xinming The following NEW packages will be installed:
14:10 xinming  libicu34
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14:11 xinming after I `dpkg -i parrot*`, that's what apt-get install -f will show
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14:17 xinming anyone here can tell me where to find the url for autrijus' journal?
14:18 Jooon somewhere here http://use.perl.org/~autrijus/journal
14:18 xinming Jooon: thanks.
14:18 Limbic_Region there used to be a link on the pugs homepage
14:18 Limbic_Region but now it links to planet pugs
14:18 xinming Limbic_Region: No, It is removed...
14:18 Limbic_Region errr
14:18 xinming yes.
14:19 Limbic_Region planet perl6
14:19 * xinming wonders what autrijus do these days.
14:19 xinming Limbic_Region: But, I have problem to access there.
14:19 Limbic_Region err - pugs even # I was right the first time
14:20 Limbic_Region confusing - the link implies pugs but the page says planet perl six
14:20 Limbic_Region xinming - you using http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/ ?
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14:20 xinming http://planet.pugscode.org/
14:21 Limbic_Region that just forwards to the URL I provided
14:21 xinming I can access http://planetsix.perl-foundation.org/
14:21 xinming But, can't access planet.pugscode.org
14:21 Limbic_Region so you are getting to where you wanted to go
14:21 Limbic_Region it is a phantom URL anyway
14:22 xinming The Great FireWall in China blocks too many sites. :-/
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14:22 Limbic_Region xinming - I don't understand, you are getting to the right place so why not cut out the middle man?
14:25 xinming Limbic_Region: hmm, If I use planet.pugscode.org, I will get the documents contains no data, But If I use planetsix.perl-foundation,org It will opened correctly.
14:25 xinming rewriting the world, What does rewriting here mean? rewrite most grammars of perl 6?
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14:28 rafl_ autrijus: ping
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14:31 Juerd r0nny_: ?
14:31 Juerd eric256_: pong
14:32 eric256_ hey. is there a timelimit on cron jobs?   make smoke, seems to die after 5 minutes, i wasn't sure if the smoke was broken or the server just shut it down
14:32 Juerd There is no time limit
14:32 eric256_ okay. /me scans error log
14:32 Juerd Which means that if you're not careful, the processes will overlap
14:33 eric256_ i only run the smoke every 6 hours
14:33 Juerd ok
14:33 eric256_ should be okay.. might goto 12 dunno
14:35 eric256_ hehe it took too long and the pugs rebuild swiped the pugs executable out form under it
14:35 eric256_ any ideas?
14:36 Limbic_Region xinming - as I said before planet.pugscode.org redirects to planetsix so there is NO content at planet.pugscode.org
14:36 Limbic_Region forget that link and just go directly to planetsix
14:36 Limbic_Region xinming - rewriting the world is meant to mean changing the world
14:37 xinming Limbic_Region: Ok.
14:41 r0nny_ re
14:41 eric256_ Juerd...for now i'm creating a pugs-smoke checkout that  will build and smoke every 6 hours and just keep it seperate
14:42 r0nny_ Juerd: wanted to have a short talk about the development steps for the build sys and package manager
14:47 r0nny_ since it will be a bigger project and i hace no clue where to start since im used to think c++
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14:49 r0nny_ well - i will write the basic steps i think will be good to the wiki
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14:56 r0nny_ http://sixpan.perl6.nl/sixpan/index.cgi?SixPanDevelopmentPlan <- please edit
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15:19 * rafl_ wonders why pugs needs a parrot src dir to build.
15:19 rafl_ Shouldn't it be enough to have the headers?
15:20 eric256_ svn check
15:20 eric256_ is svn bot feeling okay today?
15:20 G2 has quit IRC ("oops")
15:20 eric256_ hehe. he isn't even present... thats a crime! ;)
15:20 rafl_ eric256_: I don't think so..
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15:26 nothingmuch we should add a new pugs logo
15:26 nothingmuch http://www.axis-of-aevil.net/archives/2005/10/selfcare.html
15:27 * Limbic_Region chuckles
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15:28 rafl How to check if program foo is in path in perl5? Does a nice idiom or module exist?
15:31 Limbic_Region define path
15:31 rafl $ENV{PATH}
15:31 Limbic_Region check to see if which has been ported in the PPT
15:32 Limbic_Region it has
15:32 Limbic_Region http://search.cpan.org/~cwest/ppt-0.14/
15:32 Limbic_Region see which
15:32 Limbic_Region http://search.cpan.org/~cwest/ppt-0.14/bin/which
15:34 Limbic_Region rafl - does that do what you want or do you need something else?
15:36 sili ppt makes me sad.
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15:37 Juerd r0nny_: Sorry, I'm not interested in the packaging thing enough
15:37 Limbic_Region because?
15:37 sili because you reusing the code that was written isn't really possible
15:37 sili since each tool is its own script, basically
15:38 Juerd r0nny_: Please discuss your ideas with the people who do care (rafl, kane)
15:38 sili and ``... isn't pretty
15:38 r0nny_ Juerd: ok
15:38 rafl r0nny_: I am. There's already some kind of prototype.
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15:38 r0nny_ rafl: where ?
15:38 eric256 sili...port ppt to p6 and base them on a nice module ;)
15:38 r0nny_ want to take a look
15:38 sili eric256: i wish i had the time
15:38 rafl r0nny_: On my disk. Let me finish a quick hack and I'll upload it.
15:39 Juerd rafl: Wow, you're quick
15:39 Limbic_Region sili - ok but making it available inside a perl module wasn't a goal of the project
15:39 theorbtwo I could have sworn there was a core module for PATH and friends, but I don't see it...
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15:40 sili Limbic_Region: maybe not, but it would have been so benefitial
15:40 rafl Juerd: Well, kane wrote most of it. I only fixed the parts which required some deeper Debian knowledge.
15:40 r0nny_ it required debian knowdegde ?
15:41 r0nny_ well - need to go away for some time
15:41 rafl Yes. It uses the .deb format from Debian and currently also the debian tools for that (dpkg, dpkg-deb) because there no perl equivalents for them yet.
15:42 r0nny_ rafl: omg - hope u get a rid of needing to use .deb soon ;P
15:42 rafl r0nny_: Why?
15:42 rafl r0nny_: It's really mature, flexible and does what we want.
15:43 r0nny_ well - i will discuss about this issue when im back
15:43 theorbtwo Ah, File::Spec->path is what I was thinking.
15:43 rafl r0nny_: Of course, preferably in the Wiki.
15:43 theorbtwo Using .deb sounds completely reasonable to me.
15:44 rafl To kane and me as well.
15:44 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - does File::Spec->path tell you if a file exists in the path?
15:44 Limbic_Region if not, I found a module that does
15:44 Limbic_Region Env::Path has a whence method which will tell you if a file exists in the $ENV{PATH}
15:45 rafl Limbic_Region: I solved it in another way which doesn't require a module.
15:45 rafl Limbic_Region: I hope which is something we can assume to be there everywhere..
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15:45 rafl But I don't think so.. ;-)
15:45 Limbic_Region which can't be assumed to be everywhere
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15:46 Limbic_Region Win32 for instance
15:46 rafl Limbic_Region: OK then. How does windows solve that?
15:46 theorbtwo Windows?  Solve something?  You must be joking...
15:46 rafl Limbic_Region: Can you take a look at my recent commit to Makefile.PL and make it portable?
15:46 Limbic_Region rafl - 1 question at a time
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15:47 Limbic_Region rafl - windows solves this by erroring out when it isn't in the path
15:47 theorbtwo L~R, File::Spec->path only tells you what $ENV{PATH} is; it doesn't search for things in it.
15:47 Limbic_Region AFAIK, native windows doesn't provide the ability to tell you where in the path - only if it is in the path
15:47 theorbtwo I seem to recall that there is something in inc:: that's supposed to do that, but I think I remember that only because it was buggy.
15:47 Limbic_Region if you want to know the location portably (Win32 and *nix) then use the "whence" method in Env::Path
15:48 Limbic_Region second question, WRT Makefile.PL - I am not doing any Pugs hacking anymore but my last comment should help solve the problem
15:49 * rafl goes home.
15:52 xinming ?eval class A { has @.a; sub BUILD { @a = ( "a", "", '' )} }; ?A.new.a[0];
15:52 evalbot_7757 Error: Undeclared variable: "@a"
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15:52 xinming ....
15:53 Limbic_Region rafl - I think your change to Makefile.PL is b0rk
15:53 Limbic_Region oh, you went home
15:53 Limbic_Region hrmm
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15:54 Limbic_Region anyone who is listening and has an opinion - feel free to speak up
15:54 Limbic_Region apparently knowing the location of a file in $ENV{PATH} is required for something to work correctly
15:55 Limbic_Region the way to do this on Win32/*nix is to use Env::Path - which probably won't work on Mac, VMS, etc
15:55 Limbic_Region not that I think Parrot works on VMS yet
15:55 Limbic_Region anyway - copy/pasting the code from the module is fairly easy as it is compact which wouldn't require adding the module
15:56 Limbic_Region but it still won't be 100% portable
15:56 Limbic_Region the code could be adapted to combine the search routine and File::Spec which would be portable
15:56 theorbtwo Sounds like a plan, Limbic.
15:56 theorbtwo Does it properly handle extensions under win32?
15:57 xinming how to test if a value is undefined?
15:57 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - if File::Spec is providing the file names and paths then it doesn't matter
15:57 xinming just if $a { true } else { false } ?
15:57 Limbic_Region the question is then who is going to adapt the search code ;-)
15:57 Limbic_Region xinming - defined
15:58 Limbic_Region ?eval my $foo; say "undefined" if ! defined $foo;
15:58 evalbot_7758 undefined bool::true
15:58 Limbic_Region xinming - undefined didn't change behavior from p5 to p6
15:59 theorbtwo It looks like no, from a quick read of the source (it is, indeed, quite short).
15:59 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - so that means you are volunteering right ;-)
15:59 theorbtwo What I meant is that if you're looking for a command called "foo" under win32, you really want foo.{exe,com,bat,cmd,pif}.
16:00 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - that isn't needed for this specific problem
16:01 Limbic_Region and besides - the whence routine allows for patterns not just exact file names
16:01 Limbic_Region chomp(my $parrot_config = `which parrot-config.imc 2>/dev/null`);
16:01 Limbic_Region that's the line that needs to be made portable
16:01 theorbtwo Hm.
16:02 theorbtwo OK.
16:02 theorbtwo Sounds like Env::Path can do that.
16:02 Limbic_Region and that is certainly doable by combining File::Spec and Env::Path
16:02 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - it could if you didn't care about OSes other than Win32 and *nix
16:02 Limbic_Region but I think we do
16:04 theorbtwo Oh, right -- the path might not be in $ENV{PATH}.
16:04 * Limbic_Region notes the time and heads for lunch
16:04 theorbtwo Have a good one.
16:04 Limbic_Region actually - I think Perl makes $ENV{PATH} portable - that's not the problem
16:04 Limbic_Region the problem is searching in $ENV{PATH}
16:04 Luna has joined #perl6
16:04 Limbic_Region delimiters and extensions and what not
16:04 Luna hola
16:05 Limbic_Region salutations
16:05 Luna has left
16:05 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - if you read the source for Env::Path - it is doing some / and \ conversions prior to searching - that needs to be extended beyond Win32
16:05 Limbic_Region and *nix
16:06 Limbic_Region in any acct - I am off for lunch
16:10 rafl Limbic_Region: b0rked in which way?
16:12 xinming ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1;
16:12 evalbot_7758 \MkMatch {matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = "", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = {}}
16:12 xinming ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1 ?? "true".say !! "false".say ;
16:12 evalbot_7758 true bool::true
16:12 xinming Is this the right behaviour?
16:14 rafl I don't think so.
16:15 xinming It seems, that it returned a null string with `but true`
16:15 sahadev has joined #perl6
16:19 xinming eval? my $a; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $a = "false";
16:19 xinming ?eval my $a; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $a = "false";
16:19 evalbot_7758 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "bcd"
16:20 xinming how about this?
16:24 nothingmuch do roles have no instance data?
16:24 nothingmuch xinming: ?? !! is lvalue
16:25 xinming ?eval my $a; my $b; $a = "abc" ?? "bcd" !! $b = "false";
16:25 evalbot_7758 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "bcd"
16:25 xinming Do we have to write this using if statement?
16:25 xinming nothingmuch: ??
16:25 nothingmuch ?eval my $x = 0; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; $y.perl ~ " " ~ $z.perl
16:25 evalbot_7758 "\\undef \\\"foo\""
16:26 nothingmuch ?eval my $x = 1; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; $y.perl ~ " " ~ $z.perl
16:26 evalbot_7758 "\\\"foo\" \\undef"
16:26 nothingmuch what you wantes is probably !! ($a = "foo")
16:28 xinming thanks. :-)
16:30 nothingmuch what were you trying to do, btw?
16:30 nothingmuch ?eval my $x = 1; my $y; my $z; $x ?? $y !! $z = "foo"; ($y, $z)
16:30 evalbot_7758 (\"foo", \undef)
16:30 nothingmuch that's simpler ;-)
16:32 xinming nothingmuch: hmm, I want to try if we can assign a value using $x ?? true !! false statement instead of if. ;-)
16:32 theorbtwo Except the $y is being used in void context for some reason...
16:32 nothingmuch yes, you can
16:32 theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y); $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
16:32 evalbot_7758 \"false"
16:32 theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y)=1; $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
16:32 evalbot_7758 \"false"
16:32 xinming theorbtwo: hmm, I don't mean this.
16:32 nothingmuch oh, that's what you're checking
16:32 theorbtwo ?eval my ($x, $y)=(0,1); $x = $y ?? 'true' !! 'false'; $x
16:32 evalbot_7758 \"true"
16:33 nothingmuch ?eval my ($x, $y) = 1; ($x, $y)
16:33 evalbot_7758 (\1, \undef)
16:33 nothingmuch that's expected
16:33 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf; ($x, $y);
16:33 evalbot_7758 (\1.0, \2.0)
16:33 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf by 3; ($x, $y);
16:33 evalbot_7758 Error:  unexpected "b" expecting term postfix, operator, "does", "but", "is", "^..^", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", "..", ";" or end of input
16:33 xinming hmm...
16:34 xinming bbl
16:34 xinming can we make a step?
16:35 xinming Just like, 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21 such kind of list?
16:36 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..Inf :by(3); ($x, $y);
16:36 evalbot_7758 Error:  unexpected ":" expecting term postfix, operator, "does", "but", "is", "^..^", "cmp", "<=>", "^..", "..^", "..", ";" or end of input
16:37 * theorbtwo wonders why it lists "operator" and several individual operators, and why he doesn't remember those ^..^ smiliey things.
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16:44 ajs_ In S03 under new operators: The .. binary range operator has variants with ^ on either end to indicate exclusion of that endpoint from the range.
16:44 ajs_ So 1^..^3 would be (2)
16:46 xinming amazing...
16:47 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1^..^Inf; ($x, $y);
16:47 evalbot_7758 (\2.0, \3.0)
16:47 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..^Inf; ($x, $y);
16:47 evalbot_7758 (\1.0, \2.0)
16:47 xinming ?eval my( $x, $y ) = 1..^..^..Inf; ($x, $y);
16:47 evalbot_7758 Error:  unexpected "^" expecting term
16:50 nothingmuch xinming: err, what are you trying to do?
16:51 xinming nothingmuch: I wish I will be able to get a step for 1..Inf
16:51 xinming Just like It will auto generate 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, ... Inf
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16:56 nothingmuch ( grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf ))[1 .. 10)
16:56 nothingmuch ?eval( grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf ))[1 .. 10]
16:56 evalbot_7758 Error:  unexpected ")" expecting term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:56 nothingmuch ?eval (grep { ($_ - 11) % 4 == 0 } .. Inf )[1 .. 10]
16:56 evalbot_7758 Error: cannot cast from VCode (MkCode {isMulti = False, subName = "<anon>", subType = SubBlock, subEnv = Just (MkEnv {envContext = CxtItem (mkType "Any"), envLValue = False, envLexical = MkPad (padToList [("$?1",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$_",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$code",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("$lang",[(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&?BLOCK_EXIT",[(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&break",[(<ref>,<ref>),(<ref>,<ref>)]),("&c
16:56 nothingmuch eep, i'm drunk
16:56 nothingmuch ?eval grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } ... Inf
16:56 evalbot_7758 Error:  unexpected "I" expecting operator, ":", ",", term postfix, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
16:56 nothingmuch ?eval grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. Inf
16:57 nothingmuch ?eval (grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. Inf)[0 .. 10]
16:57 nothingmuch i think i fried it
16:57 xinming you are drunk...
16:57 nothingmuch is grep lazy?
16:57 evalbot_7758 (no output)
16:57 nothingmuch ?eval (grep { ($_ - 1) % 4 == 0 } 1 .. 1000)[0 .. 10]
16:57 justatheory has quit IRC ()
16:57 nothingmuch (not spec grep, current prelude grep)
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16:58 evalbot_7758 (no output)
16:58 evalbot_7758 [1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37, 41]
16:59 * nothingmuch will do a haskell version with fold
17:01 nothingmuch no, that doesn't work out well
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17:07 Limbic_Region rafl - b0rk in that it isn't portable
17:08 rafl Limbic_Region: Yes, indeed. It only works on UNIX platforms. How to do that better?
17:08 Limbic_Region you can immediately improve the portability by using 'whence' from Env::Path
17:08 Limbic_Region that will cover *nix and Win32
17:09 Limbic_Region the problem is supporting other platforms
17:09 Limbic_Region to do that - you have to combine code from 2 modules - File::Spec and Env::Path
17:09 Limbic_Region that is what I was discussing right before going to lunch
17:10 Limbic_Region the code from Env::Path is quite small so modification shouldn't be that difficult
17:11 Limbic_Region and theorbtwo was just about to volunteer
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17:12 svnbot6 r7756 | eric256++ | Add doc links for several tests in /t/operators
17:12 svnbot6 r7757 | eric256++ | Fixed typo in last commit
17:12 svnbot6 r7758 | rafl++ |  r18808@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-28 17:44:31 +0200
17:12 svnbot6 r7758 | rafl++ |  * debian/control: Build-Depend on parrot-dev for parrot embedding.
17:12 svnbot6 r7758 | rafl++ |  * Makefile.PL: Some fixes for parrot header detection.
17:13 rafl Limbic_Region: Commiting another possibility..
17:15 * Limbic_Region sees what it takes to hack Env::Path's whence and File::Spec to make it work universally
17:22 SamB has joined #perl6
17:24 svnbot6 r7759 | rafl++ |  r18815@ata:  rafl | 2005-10-28 19:24:35 +0200
17:24 svnbot6 r7759 | rafl++ |  * Make pugs detection a bit more portable.
17:24 svnbot6 r7759 | rafl++ |  * Embed parrot in the debian package as default.
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17:32 Limbic_Region rafl - I figured out how to make it portable without using Env::Path at all
17:33 Limbic_Region and without invoking a shell
17:33 Limbic_Region perlbot nopaste
17:33 perlbot Paste your code here and #<channel> will be able to view it: http://sial.org/pbot/<channel>
17:34 pasteling "Limbic_Region" at 129.33.119.12 pasted "Fix the `which` portability issue" (15 lines, 304B) at http://sial.org/pbot/13992
17:34 Limbic_Region Do you want me to update Makefile.PL or are you going to?
17:34 rafl Please do it.
17:34 Limbic_Region ok
17:36 Limbic_Region I just need to know what to do if it isn't found in the PATH?
17:39 Limbic_Region nevermind - I see an or die later on that should handle it
17:41 Limbic_Region checking in now
17:41 Limbic_Region hmm - this is taking a while
17:42 svnbot6 r7760 | iblech++ | PIL2JS: Prelude::JS::Proxy: Unbreak PIL2JS (forgot a +$var to :$var change).
17:42 Limbic_Region grrr - update failed
17:42 * Limbic_Region tries again
17:45 Limbic_Region rafl - your attempt was also b0rk
17:45 Limbic_Region PATH delimiter is not portable either - : on *nix and ; on Win32
17:45 Limbic_Region I have checked in something that should be portable
17:45 Limbic_Region please verify it actually works (I don't have Parrot on this machine)
17:46 evalbot_7759 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
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17:47 Limbic_Region actually - I think it is still b0rk but not because of the parrot-config.imc thing
17:47 svnbot6 r7761 | Limbic_Region++ | Made `which parrot-config.imc` portable
17:48 Limbic_Region (-d $base and -e "$base/parrot-config.imc") isn't portable either
17:48 Limbic_Region that needs fixing too
17:48 Limbic_Region that whole section is non-portable
17:48 * Limbic_Region goes to work
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17:52 svnbot6 r7762 | Limbic_Region++ | Corrected many more portability issues with parrot-config.imc
17:52 Limbic_Region but still not all of them
17:52 evalbot_7761 has joined #perl6
17:52 eric256 "10 */6 * * * " in crontab should run every y6 hours at 10 after the hour right?
17:53 justatheory has quit IRC (Client Quit)
17:53 Limbic_Region the more I look the more problems there are - is it because no one is running Pugs AND Parrot on anything other than *nix?
17:54 justatheory has joined #perl6
17:57 Limbic_Region eric256 - huh?
17:57 svnbot6 r7763 | Limbic_Region++ | Corrected copy/paste error in adding portability
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18:00 Limbic_Region there are more unix only style paths in the PUGS_EMBED section but I am not sure why so I am not touching them WRT portability - anyone know what is going on?
18:10 * eric256 wants to smack PerlMouse
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18:54 webmind evening
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19:04 r0nny_ re
19:04 eric256 yea automated feather smoke worked ;)
19:04 r0nny_ rafl: ping?
19:16 r0nny_ rafl: ping2?
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19:31 r0nny_ rafl: rofl - i had read how xactly deb files are made - dey definitive dont fit sixpan well - since all it needs is a tarball (preferable bz2 compressed)
19:32 Limbic_Region eric256 - why do you want to smake PerlMouse?
19:38 eric256 smack...and i dunno. i think the wording he uses just grates on my nerves.
19:38 eric256 haven't you ever had someone you just didn't like and couldn't point to a reason. ;)
19:40 * theorbtwo wonders who this perlmouse person is.
19:40 Limbic_Region eric256 - I had my own run in with PerlMouse
19:40 eric256 hehe. just someone on perlmonks.
19:41 Limbic_Region PerlMouse ended up being right but for the wrong reason
19:41 Limbic_Region which kinda made the burn worse
19:41 Limbic_Region fwiw - lazy evaluation also has the benefit of memory consumption
19:41 Limbic_Region s/memory/efficient memory/
19:41 eric256 i don't mind being wrong. i don't mind being proven wrong, or argueing about right and wrong. with me it is more a tone issue, i need to focus on remembering that most people (including myself) arn't good at conveying emotions well in text.
19:42 Limbic_Region well, PerlMouse never made their case - japhy ended up doing it
19:42 eric256 a guy on pm awhile back ticked me off, and i decided to private message him about it, turned out english wasn't his first language and he had no idea that his tone held negative connotations.
19:43 Limbic_Region I had shown that while I was right, I wasn't as right as I could have been
19:43 Limbic_Region fwiw - never under-estimate the cost of compiling regular expressions un-necessarily
19:44 theorbtwo Though for longer-running programs that tends to get amoritized out.
19:45 theorbtwo Oh.  Unless I'm forgetting how often regexes get compiled, which is quite possible.
19:45 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - not when they are in a loop that IS the body of a long running program
19:46 * eric256 is still waiting for theorbtwo to help cross reference tests. ;) i'm doing a couple test files a day but its time consuming ;)
19:46 Limbic_Region I followed the general rule - when there is a performance problem fix the algorithm and don't spend as much time on shaving individual ops
19:46 PerlJam Limbic_Region: you were just guilty of a lapse in critical thinking.  You had tunnel vision.  No big deal; it happens.
19:46 Limbic_Region in this case, the shaving outweighed changing the algorithm
19:47 Limbic_Region and doing both outweighed either combined ;-)
19:47 theorbtwo Rules of thumb are useful things, but don't forget about the rest of your fingers!
19:52 r0nny_ rafl: ping agin
19:53 Limbic_Region so does anyone have any insight into the non-portability of the EMBED_PUGS stuff in Makefile.PL ?
19:53 Limbic_Region I helped rafl out earlier with a specific issue and found that there was a whole lot of non-portable code
19:53 Limbic_Region I started fixing it and then took a step back and wondered why it was that way (and stopped)
19:54 Limbic_Region theorbtwo - fwiw, Env::Path was entirely unnecessary
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22:16 meppl gute nacht
22:16 nothingmuch good night
22:17 meppl ;)
22:17 Juerd ja, goede nacht
22:17 meppl ;)
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22:30 * nothingmuch goes to play violent computer games
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23:07 rafl r0nny_: pong
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23:30 r0nny_ re
23:30 r0nny_ rafl: ping?
23:32 rafl r0nny_: pong, again.
23:33 r0nny_ rafl: took a look at the wiki ?
23:34 r0nny_ os - i see
23:35 r0nny_ i know a tar file could contain the same scripts
23:35 rafl The tools to extract/install debs and especially to extract meta data etc already exist.
23:36 rafl It doesn't matter if it's a tarball or an ar achive.
23:36 r0nny_ its an ar archive of multiple tarballs
23:36 theorbtwo And a magic file.
23:37 theorbtwo However, like rafl said, it doesn't matter.
23:37 theorbtwo That's nice to know if you need to deal with things on a low level, or without the proper tools.
23:37 rafl A deb can contain arbitrary data, btw. Not only binary packages. You can also put a src package in with the according scripts to build it when installing.
23:37 theorbtwo Most of the time, you don't.
23:38 r0nny_ well - cpan is about source installs - i dont see the need of all the stuff deb brings in
23:38 rafl Most src packages on cpan only contain pure perl stuff. Let's say 80%. Why build packages that must be built to contain the same files afterwards?
23:39 theorbtwo It brings in a well-defined set of metadata, with years of careful evolution.
23:39 r0nny_ well if u just install source modules - just make it copy
23:40 r0nny_ but i think perl6 will have binary modules
23:40 r0nny_ where a build process is usefull
23:41 rafl It is, for 10% of all packages. Let's optimize for the default case and provide src pkg's for the rest.
23:42 theorbtwo I think this is a really bad place to try the 90/10 game.
23:42 r0nny_ i want to compile all perl modules i install
23:42 r0nny_ with specieal optinations just for my system
23:42 rafl r0nny_: Feel free to do. I don't want to.
23:42 rafl r0nny_: Yeah.. --omg-optimized ;-)
23:43 theorbtwo r0nny_: I bet you use gentoo, too.
23:43 rafl theorbtwo: I didn't say we won't support src packages. I think it should be the default to provide binary packages for pure perl stuff and fall back to src packages when it's needed.
23:43 theorbtwo Compiling perl modules with special optimizitaions just for you system doesn't make any freaking sense.
23:43 r0nny_ rafl: i just want to ensure the tools dont get to debinaish, casue the debian from shouce stuff feels horrible
23:44 r0nny_ eh source
23:44 theorbtwo r0nny_: The second half of that sentance made no sense to me.
23:44 rafl r0nny_: Debian is optimized for binary packages. We only adopt the package format.
23:44 r0nny_ even the package fromat is optimized for binary ...
23:44 r0nny_ they put stuff like archs in
23:44 theorbtwo There are two completely different formats in deb -- one for binaries and one for source.
23:45 rafl r0nny_: It isn't.
23:45 theorbtwo Source ones aren't .deb at all -- they are .tar.gz, patch.gz, and .dsc.
23:45 rafl r0nny_: Architecure is just one kind of meta information in the package. Evaluating and using it is left to the package management.
23:45 rafl OK, I'll go to bed now. Let's discuss tomorrow or in the wiki. Bye!
23:46 r0nny_ ok
23:47 r0nny_ n8 then
23:47 r0nny_ need to sleep. too
23:47 theorbtwo "nate then"?
23:47 r0nny_ night !
23:48 r0nny_ has quit IRC ("need sleep")
23:48 theorbtwo Damn l33t idiots...

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