IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-29

Time	Nick	Message
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00:33	rafl	theorbtwo: ;-)
00:34	rafl	theorbtwo: It's kind of usual in germany though. night == Nacht; eight == acht; N8 == Nacht.
00:36	theorbtwo	Oh. I suppose that makes sense... in German.
00:37	rafl	Well, not even there, imho.
00:37	theorbtwo	It's stupid still, but at least it makes sense, which is something.
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02:45	luqui	HolÃ¡steis!
02:49	scook0	err...hi
02:49	scook0	nice 'role' post, btw
02:49	theorbtwo	A happy all-holows-eve to you too.
02:49	luqui	thanks
02:50	* luqui	is going to be whatshisface from Clockwork Orange
02:50	* theorbtwo	has nothing planned, sadly.
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03:19	buu	All holows, eh?
03:20	luqui	wow... http://www.securetactics.com/SpySoftware
03:20	luqui	commercial trojans
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04:00	nothingmuch	Alex deLarge methinks
04:00	nothingmuch	he's a very froody droog
04:00	autrijus	purr
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04:01	* nothingmuch	remembers why he doesn't play computer games
04:01	nothingmuch	but it's too late again ;-)
04:01	autrijus	why?
04:01	nothingmuch	addiction problems
04:01	* nothingmuch	loses track of time
04:01	nothingmuch	and gets nothing done
04:01	nothingmuch	but my brain needs the rest
04:01	nothingmuch	i've been on the brink of burning myself out for weeks now
04:02	autrijus	do remember that this will pass, and get enough rest
04:02	nothingmuch	aye
04:02	* nothingmuch	is constantly letting his people die in Rainbow Six 3
04:02	nothingmuch	which is a bad thing
04:02	autrijus	I am _very_ happy that you did not let me introduce you to nethack.
04:02	nothingmuch	but I cant do any better
04:03	nothingmuch	ongoing things that can be paused are usually not a big problem
04:03	nothingmuch	i tend to play several minutes a day of those
04:03	nothingmuch	but i'm still afraid of it ;-)
04:03	luqui	nothingmuch, yes, that's the one
04:04	nothingmuch	if we would have holloween i would dress up as the korova milk bar to complement
04:04	luqui	If my desktop's hard drive were present I would probably be addicted to rag doll kung fu at this point
04:04	nothingmuch	i'll need some mannequins, and milk, and a high end water cooling system ;-)
04:04	luqui	on the other hand, the reviews weren't that great
04:04	nothingmuch	(cpu cooling system)
04:04	luqui	:-p
04:04	nothingmuch	rag doll kung fu?
04:05	luqui	an experimental fighting game that I've been looking forward to
04:05	* luqui	is a fan of fighting games... or rather would be if any of them were any good
04:05	nothingmuch	hmm... no mac version?
04:05	luqui	nein
04:06	* nothingmuch	watches the trailer instead
04:09	nothingmuch	that would be very cool with a programming edge in it
04:09	luqui	what would you program?
04:10	nothingmuch	combos
04:10	luqui	aa
04:10	* nothingmuch	really likes tekken (3) because of all the juggling
04:10	nothingmuch	it's a very elegant way to kick ass
04:11	* luqui	always found that annoying, being at the kicked ass side
04:11	nothingmuch	ah
04:11	luqui	I think Soul Calibur is about as good a fighting game as they've made yet
04:11	nothingmuch	i am always on the ass kicked side, except in tekken and unreal tournament
04:11	* nothingmuch	hasn't played that yet
04:12	luqui	it's pretty good. But it's still attached to the realtime/buttonmash/energybar paradigm.
04:12	luqui	Glorified tekken, as it were. It's just very well balanced.
04:12	nothingmuch	buttonmashing is not that fun
04:12	nothingmuch	what I like in tekken is that you sometimes need to wait a second to get something in
04:13	nothingmuch	if you are slightly less trigger happy than 100% you will win
04:13	scook0	ever tried virtua fighter?
04:13	buu	You know what's better? Quake.
04:13	luqui	heh
04:13	nothingmuch	scook0: my parents didn't let me play violent games at that age ;-)
04:13	* nothingmuch	doesn't like quake
04:13	buu	FREAK.
04:13	nothingmuch	it's not as fun aasUT
04:13	buu	meh
04:13	buu	Same thing.
04:13	nothingmuch	nuh uh
04:13	nothingmuch	UT has more style
04:13	buu	Does UT have strafe jumping and such?
04:13	luqui	I remember when there was just Quake. No Quake 2, no quake 3 arena. When you said "I'm going to go online and frag somebody", you just went online and fragged somebody.
04:13	buu	heh
04:13	nothingmuch	you mean strafing in the air? or jumping sideways?
04:14	buu	I remember playing q2 over a dialup
04:14	buu	nothingmuch: Nope.
04:14	luqui	(I actually never played Quake... any version. I'm not a big fan of FPSs)
04:14	luqui	By which I mean I despise them
04:14	buu	Sucks to be you!
04:14	nothingmuch	that wasn't a yes or no question, that was multiple choice ;-)
04:14	buu	(0 \|\| 0) == 0!
04:14	nothingmuch	uh, your point being?
04:15	buu	That 'no' means no to both.
04:15	luqui	But 0! == 1
04:15	luqui	:-)
04:15	buu	luqui: 0! is a syntax error!
04:15	nothingmuch	ah
04:15	nothingmuch	so wtf is strafe jumping if it's not one of those?
04:15	scook0	also !0 == 0!
04:15	buu	nothingmuch: Strafe jumping is when you accelerate via jumping
04:15	luqui	woah
04:15	luqui	that's scary
04:15	nothingmuch	ah
04:15	buu	?eval 0!
04:15	evalbot_7763	Error: unexpected "!" expecting "x", "d", octal digit, "o", "b", digit, fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
04:15	scook0	those crazy physics exploits?
04:15	nothingmuch	that's bad game design
04:16	buu	nothingmuch: Bad.. game.. de.. what? What the hell? How can you even make that claim?
04:16	buu	Obviously the rocket launchers in UT are bad game design, cause they shoot rockets.
04:16	buu	I mean, hey, if we don't need logic..
04:16	luqui	?eval sub postfix:<!> ($x) { if $x == 0 { 1 } else { $x * ($x-1)! } } 5!
04:16	evalbot_7763	Error: unexpected "i" expecting ";", statements or "}" reserved word
04:16	luqui	qua?
04:16	nothingmuch	?eval multi postfix:<!> (0) { 1 }; multi postfix:<!> ($n) { $n * ($n - 1)! }; 5!
04:16	evalbot_7763	Error: unexpected "0" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
04:16	luqui	didn't that used to work?
04:16	nothingmuch	darn
04:17	nothingmuch	buu: it's bad game design because it's stupid behavior
04:17	buu	nothingmuch: You mean stupider than taking a rocket in the face and surviving?
04:17	nothingmuch	someone didn't notice the fault in the physics engine and jump parameters
04:17	scook0	I'm not sure it was deliberate
04:17	buu	nothingmuch: Dude, they put it in there deliberately.
04:17	theorbtwo	nothingmuch: Because it's not like the real world?
04:17	buu	Southen: It was deliberate after the first patch =]
04:17	nothingmuch	no, because it's imbalanced
04:17	buu	oh
04:17	nothingmuch	it would be nicer if:
04:17	buu	Obviously only one player can strafe jump.
04:17	nothingmuch	you could jump around and be slow
04:17	nothingmuch	or be a sitting duck and go fast
04:18	buu	Oh wait, every player can strafe jump. Thus making it balanced.
04:18	* luqui	thinks that you only have bad game design when you make a game that isn't fun, because you've missed the whole point of making a game. For example, Deus Ex 2.
04:18	nothingmuch	what does deus ex do wrong?
04:18	luqui	Deus Ex was great. Deus Ex 2 was too caught up in being a movie to be a good game.
04:19	buu	Deus Ex was so awesome. I've always wanted to play DX2, but everyone hated it =[
04:22	* scook0	interleaves IRC with rounds of counterstrike...
04:23	luqui	counterstrike was a FPS that I actually liked pretty well
04:25	scook0	I never got into it in the HL1 days
04:25	nothingmuch	oh god: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/28/no_trademark_on_stra.html
04:25	luqui	scook0, likewise. I started at CS:S
04:26	theorbtwo	Well, at least they came up with a reasonable result, even if their reasoning was completely bonkers.
04:26	luqui	nothingmuch, is it just me, or did they completely miss the point?
04:27	nothingmuch	who did?
04:27	luqui	the article
04:27	luqui	about strawberries
04:27	luqui	the court
04:28	nothingmuch	yep
04:28	theorbtwo	The question was "can the scent of fresh strawberies be trademarked".
04:28	theorbtwo	Their answer was "no".
04:28	theorbtwo	Good answer.
04:28	nothingmuch	i was actually "oh god"ing more at the court than the company
04:29	nothingmuch	theorbtwo: the sad thing is that the answer was actually 'no, because strawberies have five different scents'
04:29	theorbtwo	Yes.
04:29	nothingmuch	on the other hand, grass has one scent, so that's OK
04:29	theorbtwo	Not such a good reason.
04:29	theorbtwo	Right.
04:29	theorbtwo	I hope this is largely poor reporting.
04:30	* nothingmuch	somehow doubts the BBC will make it sound this bad
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04:30	nothingmuch	i trust the BBC more than I trust the judicinal and political systems that govern stuff that has to do with patents and trademarks and all that crap
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05:14	stevan	luqui: ping
05:15	stevan	luqui: I sent you a mail re: theory.pod, I am trying to understand where it fits in with the metamodel/object-space/runtime stuff I have been working on
05:16	stevan	I think it does all fit together to a degree, but the code in theory.pod is just so haskellish, so I am unclear of the details
05:16	stevan	anyway check your mail,.. I have to sleep now &
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05:50	jabbot	xinming: autrijus was seen 1 hours 47 minutes 50 seconds ago
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06:17	xinming	by the way, Is continuation a bit like Rule in perl 6?
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06:22	luqui	welll... uh
06:22	luqui	no
06:22	luqui	rule execution may be implemented using continuations, but the similarities end there
06:22	luqui	unless there is a similarity I am not seeing
06:23	xinming	luqui: thanks, need more reading on haskell tutorial.
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07:09	* autrijus	proceeds to go to the airport (to brussels)
07:10	autrijus	see you in a few hours... safely in liz's place and ready to hack
07:10	autrijus	<- almost finished PickAxe2
07:10	autrijus	which fills my mind with weird constructs like
07:10	autrijus	my $x = if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
07:10	autrijus	(instead of)
07:10	xinming	autrijus: did you meet Larry? :-P
07:10	autrijus	my $x = do if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
07:10	autrijus	xinming: sure did
07:11	autrijus	worked on the tuple syntax a bit
07:11	xinming	my $x = 3 ?? 4 !! 5 ;
07:11	xinming	why not use this?
07:11	autrijus	sure
07:11	autrijus	but still
07:11	autrijus	my $x = given $y { when 3 { 4 } default { 5 } };
07:11	autrijus	(in ruby all statements are expressions)
07:11	autrijus	they don't have a Stmt form, it's all Exp
07:12	xinming	autrijus: hmm, did Larry consider construct the object using class name in some situation?
07:12	xinming	oh,ok
07:12	autrijus	xinming: I don't know... you mean like
07:12	autrijus	my $dbh = DBI(dsn => $dsn, user => 'foo');
07:12	autrijus	?
07:13	xinming	yes.
07:13	autrijus	I think it makes sense. the "new" method though is then implicit in this case
07:13	autrijus	which may or may not be a good thing
07:13	autrijus	<- coding monkey, not really designer
07:14	xinming	hmm, sometimes, we don't need an instance to be held.
07:14	autrijus	:)
07:14	* autrijus	goes packing some more
07:14	xinming	class A { has $.a; method show { $.a.say } }; A( a = 5 ).show;
07:15	xinming	if we use A( a => 5 ).new.show,
07:15	autrijus	oh, singleton classes
07:15	autrijus	?
07:15	xinming	the .new is a bit annonying
07:16	xinming	if there are many classes like this. :-P
07:17	autrijus	I tend to agree :)
07:17	xinming	hmm, most times, the small program will only hold only an instance of a class
07:19	xinming	page( document => "path/to/doc", save_to = "path/to/cache" ).process; cache( file = "path/to/cache" ).show;
07:20	xinming	that's what I think useful :-)
07:20	autrijus	nodnod... otoh you can do
07:21	xinming	what does otoh mean? :-S
07:21	scook0	xinming: I can see Larry's point about wanting Classname($foo) to be a cast rather than a constructor though
07:21	autrijus	on the other hand
07:21	autrijus	class A { sub A is export { call ./new } };
07:21	autrijus	or something like that
07:22	xinming	hmm, Yes, I know, we can make method to be an constructor...
07:22	xinming	autrijus: But, If there are method... This is not handful..
07:23	scook0	but if we're going to have Haskell-style data types, we'll need a shorter construction form anyway
07:23	xinming	if there are lots of methods.
07:23	scook0	A:( a => 5 ).show # woo, colon!
07:24	autrijus	_everybody_ wants colons!
07:24	scook0	because they're so versatile
07:24	xinming	hmm, why not make `my A: $o .= new( ... )` ?
07:24	autrijus	off to airport... bbl :) wave &
07:24	scook0	and because everything else is already taken
07:25	scook0	xinming: what are you suggesting?
07:25	xinming	and use A( ... ) as a constructor?
07:25	xinming	for now, we use `my A $o .= new( ... )` to get an instance.
07:26	xinming	hmm, and I saw Larry replied about my question,
07:26	xinming	So, I just suggest using `my A: $o .= new` instead of `my A $o .= new`
07:26	scook0	xinming: oh, I didn't realise you hadn't read it
07:27	scook0	I don't think that was his objection though
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07:28	xinming	certainly, I won't be able to think as far as you can do, So, Just show my Humble opinion. :-(
07:28	xinming	http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/23874
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07:39	xinming	?eval class A { has $.a; }; new A( a => 1 );
07:39	evalbot_7763	Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 51}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
07:40	xinming	the perl 5 style doesn't works. :'(
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07:59	xinming	anyone here can tell me if `class.new a => 1` would work? IMHO This is a bit like a function call without parenthesis.
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08:04	Detonite	Morning
08:05	xinming	afternoon here. :-P
08:06	Detonite	Well the point comes across still I hope
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09:03	rafl_	What tests do I need to run to chech if parrot embedding works?
09:11	scook0	xinming: `class.new:a(1)` should work
09:12	scook0	`class.new a=>1` won't work because method calls need either parens or adverbs
09:16	xinming	scook0: thanks
09:17	scook0	I think someone (Juerd?) was trying to get rid of the method-call-parens restriction, but I don't know if that went anywhere
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09:18	xinming	hmm, by the way, how about `new class: a(1)` ?
09:18	xinming	indirect object syntax can be used in method calls, how about the constructor?
09:19	xinming	though, It's a special method.
09:23	scook0	I think `new MyClass: a => 1` or `new MyClass: :a(1)` would be the syntax
09:24	scook0	`new MyClass: a(1)` would call &a with arg 1
09:36	* xinming	thinks perl 6 might be the most complicated language in the world...
09:36	Juerd	scook0: I want method calls to be possibly parenless
09:37	Juerd	Just like sub calls
09:37	Juerd	It just takes everything until the end of the expression,
09:37	scook0	what was the original motivation for them being different?
09:37	xinming	so do I, as method is kind of sub...
09:37	Juerd	That the signature is unknown at compile time, and Perl cannot know how many arguments to take
09:38	Juerd	lc $foo, $bar is actually lc($foo), $bar
09:38	Juerd	While split $foo, $bar is split($foo, $bar)
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09:41	scook0	do one-arg subs automatically become prefix-unary ops?
09:41	Juerd	It works like that in Perl 5
09:41	Juerd	And isn't specified to change, so yes.
09:43	scook0	I just wonder how that interacts with multis
09:50	Juerd	The same
09:51	scook0	(there are a lot of things I wonder about multis)
09:52	scook0	like being able to pass positional args using named-arg syntax
09:53	scook0	for singular subs, it's easy enough
09:53	scook0	for multis, it's possible, but I doubt it can be done efficiently
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10:09	r0nny	yo
10:09	r0nny	rafl_: alive ?
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10:26	rafl_	r0nny: Sure.
10:29	r0nny	rafl_: any idea hol long it will take to make your sixpan tools run under gentoo ?
10:29	r0nny	hol = how
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10:30	rafl_	They already do, imho.
10:30	rafl_	Install dpkg and dpkg-deb and go for it.
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10:32	r0nny	hmm
10:32	r0nny	rafl_: is there a svn repo up allready ?
10:34	rafl_	r0nny: kane uses p4. I'll set up an svk mirror soon.
10:35	r0nny	p4 ?
10:35	rafl_	perforce.
10:35	r0nny	sad - its comnerecial
10:36	r0nny	well - going to read the license
10:36	rafl_	Well, you don't need to pay for a usable version.
10:36	rafl_	I also like it, of course.
10:37	r0nny	atm im a monotone fan
10:38	rafl_	Well, pugs uses svn/svk. I'll check it in its repository.
10:40	r0nny	i allready installed p4
10:41	r0nny	repo url ?
10:41	rafl_	I don't have my laptop handy. I guess p4.elixus.org or something like that.
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10:43	r0nny	argh - wont work :/
10:44	xerox	Howdy.
10:44	rafl_	r0nny: ask kane or look at the wiki.
10:44	rafl_	r0nny: BrainStorming. There's a p4 url somewhere.
10:44	r0nny	ok
10:48	r0nny	rafl_: cant do a checkout :/
10:48	rafl_	Ask kane.
10:48	r0nny	where is he ?
10:49	rafl_	[emailhidden.address] or on irc.perl.org sometimes.
11:05	drbean	h /server
11:06	r0nny	hmm
11:06	r0nny	hes online, but not answering :/
11:07	r0nny	guess hes busy
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11:41	Juerd	ARGH
11:41	Juerd	The term "auto reference" really clouds vision and understanding
11:41	Juerd	It makes things seem MUCH more magical than they are.
11:42	Juerd	An array doesn't "auto reference" "when needed".
11:42	Juerd	It returns a reference to itself in scalar context, that's all.
11:42	Juerd	And yes, Array context is a form of scalar context
11:43	Juerd	The only thing that's a bit magical is automatic dereferencing
11:44	Juerd	THAT has the "when used as" thing.
11:44	Juerd	"when used as" an array, an arrayref dereferences automatically.
11:44	Juerd	But it's not so that an array "when not used as" an array, automatically references.
11:45	Juerd	Or, alternatively, call +@foo auto-elemsing
11:45	Juerd	And ~@foo auto-stringification
11:45	Juerd	Which it is NOT. It's not auto, it's explicit because of context.
11:45	xerox	Do you know in which debian package are uu{encode,decode} ?
11:46	Juerd	apt-cache search uuencode
11:46	Juerd	Pick the one beginning with s.
11:46	rafl_	apt-file search bin/uuencode
11:51	xinming	xern: try apt-cache search uuencode
11:51	Juerd	xinming: Now there's a novel idea.
11:51	xinming	sharutils
11:51	Juerd	xinming: Glad you thought of it.
11:51	Juerd	Otherwise he'd never have found it!
11:52	xinming	Juerd: :-) what I use apt-cache most time, as it might find some good related softwares. :-)
11:52	Juerd	xinming: I think I have to agree.
11:53	Juerd	(is blindness bliss too?)
11:53	xinming	apt-cache search uuencode\|grep uuencode
11:53	xinming	aish - ish/base64/uuencoded_file converter
11:53	xinming	sharutils - shar, unshar, uuencode, uudecode
11:54	Juerd	You're so smart.
11:55	xinming	...
11:56	Juerd	I just wish I had thought of that
11:56	theorbtwo	(apt-cache)++
11:57	xinming	apt-cache is a better tool most time in my opinion, apt-file is better for searching using absolute path for a file.
11:58	Juerd	I use both
11:58	Juerd	But apt-cache much more often
11:58	* rafl_	as well.
11:59	rafl_	But for the given task (finding a binary) apt-file seems to be a better tool.
11:59	* xinming	nods.
11:59	Juerd	rafl_: Well, yes. But uudecode is often used within larger tasks, for which apt-cache might reveal integrated solutions
12:02	* xinming	really likes perl 6.
12:04	xinming	?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1 ?? "true".say !! "false".say ;
12:04	evalbot_7763	true bool::true
12:04	xinming	Is this a bug?
12:04	xinming	$1 get nothing, But it is true.
12:04	xinming	s/get/gets/
12:04	rafl_	?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1.perl
12:04	evalbot_7763	"\\MkMatch \{matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = \"\", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = \{}}"
12:05	xinming	I know there is a property can be set using `0 but true`
12:05	xinming	But, Why here is true?
12:06	rafl_	?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; "$1"
12:06	evalbot_7763	""
12:06	rafl_	I think it's a bug.
12:06	xinming	hmm, I don't know which to choose. :-)
12:07	xinming	we can say that it is a bug, because null string should be false.
12:07	rafl_	?eval ""
12:07	evalbot_7763	""
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12:07	rafl_	?eval ?""
12:07	evalbot_7763	bool::false
12:07	xinming	But, if we need the match status of the match, this might be right behaivour
12:07	rafl_	Well, write a test in t/pugsbugs/
12:08	xinming	Ok, >_<
12:08	theorbtwo	Write a test when you don't know what the correct behavior is?
12:10	rafl_	Hm, good point.
12:12	xinming	I think, This might be better to ask on the mailing-list.
12:12	Juerd	?eval "foobar" =~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--"
12:12	evalbot_7763	Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "foobar"
12:13	Juerd	?eval "foobar" ~~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--"
12:13	evalbot_7763	"--foo--bar--"
12:13	Juerd	Simple case works.
12:14	Juerd	Re (\w+)? not matching anything: its variable should be false
12:14	Juerd	Not because it matched a null string, because it cannot match a null string.
12:15	Juerd	But because it didn't match, because of the + condition.
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12:26	xinming	so many because... >_<
12:26	xinming	the test is written,
12:26		evalbot_7763 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
12:26	xinming	after the bug is fixed, Where should this test be?
12:27		evalbot_7764 has joined #perl6
12:27	xinming	Ok, I think I know, rules
12:27	theorbtwo	rules/p5, or something?
12:27	svnbot6	r7764 \| yiyihu++ \| add a bug test for numbered match variable.
12:28	xinming	maybe
12:28	xinming	I wonder, what will `` be used for in perl 6?
12:29	xinming	still the same as perl 5?
12:32	scook0	xinming: I'm not sure, but I think `` will be reserved for the user
12:32	scook0	(for P5 ``, use q:x//)
12:37	xinming	Larry might think he used too much... :-P leave a ascii for user to play with
12:38	theorbtwo	qx isn't useful enough to take a rare ASCII character for.
12:39	scook0	bah, all Perl 6 users should just go out and buy APL keyboards :-P
12:39	theorbtwo	On the other hand, it has too-strong associations with qx in many people's minds to use for something else.
12:39	xinming	I ever saw a pic for a keyboard with only '1' and '0' on it...
12:39	* xinming	wants one...
12:40	scook0	theorbtwo: personally, I always see Haskell function-infixification
12:40	xinming	by the way, hmm, how do we type the unicode form of << ?
12:41	xinming	Do we have to open a program which list the unicode chars and lookup one by one?
12:41	xinming	characters*
12:41	scook0	xinming: I use AltGr+z
12:41	scook0	but it differs from platform to platform
12:42	xinming	I use debian.
12:42	* xinming	even don't know which key is AltGr
12:42	xinming	the Alt key at the right hand side?
12:42	scook0	the right Alt, but you need to enable a keyboard layout that supports it
12:43	xinming	hmm, which keyboard layout you use please?
12:44	scook0	it's a US-International one, let me check the name...
12:44	scook0	U.S. English w/ ISO9995-3
12:45	scook0	(I'm just using the Gnome keyboard config under Ubuntu)
12:45	xinming	I will choose Gnome also. :-)
12:46	xinming	haha, It's designed for perl 6
12:46	xinming	Â«Â»
12:46	scook0	:Â»)
12:46	xinming	â This might be better for method call.
12:47	xinming	How about the Zip operator?
12:47	theorbtwo	There's a docs/quickref/unicode.
12:48	xinming	theorbtwo: thanks
12:48	scook0	Â¥ (shift-altgr-y)
12:48	theorbtwo	If it doesn't have the information you want, add to it.
12:48	theorbtwo	I personally use an en-US map with an en-UK keyboard, and use the extra key for compose.
12:48	theorbtwo	It works /wonderfully/ for me, but isn't terribly applicable to most people (who aren't Americans using European keyboards).
12:49	xinming	I wonder, Is there any differences between en-US en-UK keymap?
12:49	theorbtwo	Xinming: Lots.
12:49	theorbtwo	Not as many as en_US and de_DE, but still different enough to be quite annoying.
12:49	xinming	well, in China, all Keyboard layouts are almosts the same.
12:50	xinming	If you don't change the settings in Windows, all are the same. :-)
12:50	theorbtwo	American and European keyboards are even physically different -- the ones in Europe have an extra key.
12:51	scook0	where is that extra key, by the way?
12:51	theorbtwo	Just to the right of left shift.
12:51	xinming	hmm, the extra key is not the problem, the problem is that qwert and dvorak layout keyboard. :-)
12:51	xinming	Anyone here use dvorak layout?
12:52	scook0	I think Juerd might ... I don't myself
12:52	theorbtwo	Juerd uses a Dutch version of dvorak, which I think is of his own devising.
12:53	scook0	ooh, hardcore!
12:53	Juerd	theorbtwo: ?
12:53	theorbtwo	Oh, I didn't relize you were here.
12:53	Juerd	theorbtwo: My layout is US Dvorak.
12:53	theorbtwo	Oh.
12:53	theorbtwo	Well, I was close?
12:53	Juerd	My absence shouldn't be a reason for misinformation
12:53	xinming	hmm, for perl 6, there might cause another problem is that, if people wish to do programming in pure console Which can't display the unicode ...
12:53	Juerd	I use dvorak, not a Dutch version of it.
12:54	Juerd	US keyboards work wonderfully for Dutch.
12:54	Juerd	US QWERTY and US Dvorak
12:54	theorbtwo	Oh.
12:54	theorbtwo	I'm sorry, Juerd.
12:54	Juerd	Dutch keyboards exist, but they're not used much.
12:54	Juerd	IBM for a long time remained ignorant about this, and shipped Dutch keyboards.
12:54	integral	hmm, has someone changed how the makefile searches for parrot? it can't find my parrot tree located at ../parrot :-/
12:54	Juerd	They finally understood their mistake only half a year ago.
12:55	theorbtwo	Juerd: US keyboards are normal there?
12:55	Juerd	theorbtwo: Yes.
12:55	xinming	I use Emacs, And ever wished to changed to dvorak layout. the problem is that âââ for Emacs are all different... that makes me go crazy
12:55	Juerd	theorbtwo: Dutch keyboards suck.
12:55	Juerd	theorbtwo: And we Dutch know how to adapt to ASCII.
12:55	Juerd	theorbtwo: The only difference today is that we have US keyboards with a € on the 5% key.
12:55	theorbtwo	That's odd... I would think you'd use some sort of more local keyboard.
12:55	xinming	in mainland China, all keyboard layouts are qwerty :-)
12:55	Juerd	theorbtwo: Why? We talk in ASCII nowadays
12:55	integral	the % key?!
12:56	Juerd	theorbtwo: Nobody writes "ij" as a single letter anymore, even :)
12:56	Juerd	Well, really old people do.
12:56	theorbtwo	Economies of scale.
12:57	Juerd	And we've adapted to ISO standards for currencies too
12:57	Juerd	People have used NLG here, instead of the florin sign
12:57	Juerd	Now, EUR, that is: unless you're a Windows cluebie, because then you are supposed to use altgr+5 for it, which generates (in Windows) chr(128), which shouldn't quite be the euro sign.
12:58	theorbtwo	Ugh... no, it shouldn't.
12:58	theorbtwo	I'm used to using â¬ and Â£ now, and use utf8 as my native charset.
12:58	Juerd	Also, we generally just leave out diaereses
12:58	theorbtwo	Dutch is readable like that?
12:59	Juerd	Certainly.
12:59	theorbtwo	Nifty.
12:59	xinming	Â¹Â²Â³
12:59	theorbtwo	Germans apparently get annoyed when you use the ascii versions.
12:59	xinming	How to type the small 456?
12:59	xinming	Â¼Â½Â¾{[]}\
12:59	xinming	oops, sorry,
12:59	Juerd	The diaeresis on the last e in Belgie is just to indicate that the "ie" isn't a diphthong
13:00	Juerd	Which without diaeresis it would be
13:00	Juerd	theorbtwo: It's not an umlaut, but a "trema".
13:00	theorbtwo	Superscript 1..3 have latin-1 chars for them, for some odd reason. Superscript 4..9 and 0 do not, so there is no way to type them.
13:00	integral	the same as English, different from German (umlaut ne diaeresis)
13:00	theorbtwo	Oh, right. Forgot about that.
13:00	Juerd	theorbtwo: It only breaks diphthongs
13:00	Juerd	integral: diaeresis is the name for the glyph. Both are.
13:01	theorbtwo	German has well-defined ascii versions as well -- Ã becomes ss, Ã¶ becomes oe. People don't like them.
13:01	integral	Juerd: my expression wasn't well typed then ;-)
13:01	Juerd	theorbtwo: I haven't met Germans who told me they hated the ascii versions.
13:01	Juerd	And in some German IRC channels I've visited, they were quite common
13:01	theorbtwo	Apparently some of Jess's ex-coworkers did.
13:02	rafl_	theorbtwo: I like them. The other chars aren't on my keyboard. :-)
13:02	Juerd	theorbtwo: We also don't use accents anymore
13:02	theorbtwo	Oh -- I didn't realize you were German, rafl.
13:02	Juerd	theorbtwo: Only in print, they're still commonly used
13:02	theorbtwo	I didn't realize Dutch ever did. I'm fairly ignorant of Dutch.
13:02	rafl_	theorbtwo: I am, though.
13:03	Juerd	theorbtwo: Which means that our ways with a word processor are very different from our ways in e-mail, irc, usenet and web fora :)
13:04	theorbtwo	Living in Europe hasn't really disuaded me from my typically-American opinion on language:
13:04	theorbtwo	You should all learn ours.
13:04	Juerd	I rely on the spelling checker to give me tremas and accents.
13:04	Juerd	Web sites follow the normal rules too
13:04	Juerd	When composing HTML, I write België
13:04	Juerd	Not Belgie
13:05	Juerd	A similar thing happens with Esperanto
13:05	Juerd	For printed documents, I care about the correct circumflexes
13:06	Juerd	For websites, I care about them, but they're too much trouble (lack of good HTML support)
13:06	Juerd	And anywhere else, I just use the ASCII variants
13:06	Juerd	cx, gx, hx, jx, sx, ux
13:06	integral	a
13:06	Juerd	See also juerd.nl/iksoj
13:07	Juerd	(Esperanto has no X in the alphabet, which makes these unambiguous)
13:07	theorbtwo	You should possibly revise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Writing_system
13:09	Juerd	It's still all correct
13:09	Juerd	It just doesn't cover typical Dutch adaption-because-of-laziness
13:11	theorbtwo	Yeah.
13:11	theorbtwo	I think that's very interesting from a socological viewpoint.
13:11	Juerd	That it doesn't mention the ij ligature is bad.
13:11	Juerd	(It's a letter, not a ligature, by the way)
13:11	Juerd	I've stopped editing wikipedia articles, though
13:11	Juerd	Most commonly the changes are undone within minutes
13:12	Juerd	By someone who claims they know more about the subject
13:12	Juerd	And if you prove your numbers are correct, then typically you're not allowed to use them, because they're part of an official report, which is copyrighted, blah blah.
13:13	Juerd	Wikipedia is a nice source of information
13:13	Juerd	Just don't trust any of it.
13:15	theorbtwo	That's one of the few really nice things I've found about American copyright law.
13:16	theorbtwo	Offical government reports are /not/ subject to copyright.
13:16	theorbtwo	This is in sharp contrast to the UK where not only are they copyright, they are a special magical copyright that /never/ expires.
13:17	Juerd	They're not subject to copyright here either. HOWEVER, wikipedians generally do not know this.
13:17	Juerd	And it's often very unclear whether something is government information
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13:17	Juerd	Our goverment is partly run by private organizations, and their exact status is hard to discover
13:18	theorbtwo	That's also true of the US government these days.
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13:18	Juerd	afk
13:18	theorbtwo	...and things that a private company made that were paid for by the government /are/ subject to copyright.
13:18	theorbtwo	...and to patent.
13:18	theorbtwo	Which quite annoys me.
13:21	svnbot6	r7765 \| juerd++ \| clarification
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13:51	xinming	how to know if the user is logged in in web programming please?
13:52	xinming	Or anyone here can show me a url about this category?
13:52	xinming	If I use google and use keyword, login web programming the results aren't useful...
13:53	xinming	hmm, Use perl 5.
13:53	theorbtwo	Try search.cpan.org, session.
13:54	xinming	theorbtwo: thanks
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13:59	xinming	is session implemented by cookie?
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14:05	theorbtwo	Generally.
14:05	theorbtwo	Better, though, is to use the cookie to identify the individual browser, and store the mapping from cookies to any useful information on the server.
14:05	theorbtwo	Otherwise, people can use the cookie for various nefarious purposes.
14:18	xinming	thanks. I think I know how to do this. :-)
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15:48	xinming	find a bug, But really hard to catch...
15:48	* xinming	is still trying
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16:08	r0nny	hmm - sweet - the perl6 channel is bound to meta-p
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16:16	svnbot6	r7766 \| iblech++ \| * Usual svn props.
16:16	svnbot6	r7766 \| iblech++ \| * t/pugsbugs/numbered-match-variable.t: Added a subtest.
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16:40	eric256__	hey someone made the tests on smooke.pugscode.org actualy point to the tests!!! ;)
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17:04	xinming	anyone here can tell me if the class in perl 6 has to be use Upper case at the first letter?
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17:06	eric256__	no there are no case restrictions on class names
17:07	eric256__	?eval class a {};
17:07	evalbot_7766	undef
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17:08	xinming	haha, I finally found the bug... :-P
17:09	xinming	?eval class a { has $.a; method show { $.a.say; } }; class b { has $.a; method BUILD { a.new( a => $.a ).show; }; } b.new( a => 100 );
17:09	evalbot_7766	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&show"
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17:47	xinming	?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say;
17:47	evalbot_7766	9 bool::true
17:47	xinming	Is this right?
17:47	xinming	Is this right behaviour?
17:48	eric256__	?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b.say; $a.say;
17:48	evalbot_7766	6 9 bool::true
17:49	eric256__	what part are you expecting not to work
17:49	xinming	?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a -= 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say;
17:49	evalbot_7766	6 bool::true
17:49	xinming	...
17:49	xinming	hold on.
17:51	xinming	?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update';
17:51	evalbot_7766	\6
17:51	xinming	?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
17:51	evalbot_7766	6 bool::true
17:52	xinming	strange...
17:52	xinming	I wrote this in test, the $var won't update
17:53	xinming	won't be updated.
17:53	eric256__	but it is updated
17:55	xinming	eric256__: co the svn
17:55	eric256__	it updated in your tests right there on eval bot. so i'm confused what your problem is.
17:56	xinming	eric256__: But this line in test won't work.
17:56	eric256__	ahh. which tests file?
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17:57	svnbot6	r7767 \| yiyihu++ \| Add 3 tests to test class name and attribute name conflictions...
17:58	xinming	pugsbug/class_name_and_attribute_name_confliction.t
18:01	eric256__	hehe. thaty doesn't work in the pugs interactive interface
18:01	eric256__	?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
18:01	evalbot_7767	6 bool::true
18:01	eric256__	odd...very odd
18:01	eric256__	?eval &*PUGS_VERSION
18:01	evalbot_7767	\sub {...}
18:02	eric256__	?eval $*PUGS_VERSION
18:02	evalbot_7767	\undef
18:02	eric256__	?eval $*VERSION
18:02	evalbot_7767	\undef
18:02	xinming	It's magic version...
18:03	eric256__	if i -e it it does that, if i run it in interactive it doesn't
18:04	xinming	and also in test, :-)
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19:29	xinming	my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @var>>.new
19:29	xinming	should this be valid in perl 6?
19:30	xinming	oops
19:30	xinming	my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @t>>.new
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19:30	integral	hmm, soft references? :-)
19:31	xinming	yes
19:32	xinming	?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new( 3 );
19:32	evalbot_7767	Error: Must only use named arguments to new() constructor
19:32	wolverian	erm. why not just (Int, Str)>>.new :)
19:32	xinming	?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new;
19:32	evalbot_7767	Str.new();
19:32	xinming	this works,
19:32	xinming	but not @t
19:33	wolverian	that does _not_ work
19:33	wolverian	it calls the .new method of Str
19:33	wolverian	not Int, as I think you wanted
19:33	wolverian	why do you want to use soft references?
19:33	xinming	wolverian: because we some times need dynamic object creation.
19:33	wolverian	xinming, use a hash. :)
19:35	xinming	the hyper operator exists, so I want that way.. :-)
19:36	wolverian	xinming, (Int, Str)>>.new
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20:27	eric256__	hey...i'm setting up tests.pugscode.org to highlight tests that fail or are marked as todo...any ideas what to do when there is more than one test on the same line? or should i just let it flub those? ;)
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21:20	obra	how often is there more than on etest on the same line?
21:20	obra	"sounds like the test suite should be fixed"
21:20	eric256	yea. i was thinking the same thing
21:21	eric256	nearly impossible to work with those tests
21:21	eric256	http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric256/t_index/t/builtins/want.html
21:21	eric256	too bright?
21:24	obra	a little bright
21:24	eric256	yea..just commited it if you would like to play with the css some ;)
21:28	svnbot6	r7768 \| eric256++ \| Upadted catalog_tests.pl script to highlight tests on a pass/fail basis. Needs support for todo, skip, and tests spanning multiple lines.
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21:37	nothingmuch	eric256: make the green slightly lighter so there is more contrast between the bg and the text
21:38	eric256	got an exact css change? i'm not good with that stuff ;)
21:38	nothingmuch	instead of #0f0 make it around #3f3
21:38	nothingmuch	but I'm not good with that stuff either ;-)
21:38	nothingmuch	use FF + web developer
21:39	* nothingmuch	can't do it now (too many obligations)
21:39	nothingmuch	but nice work =)
21:39	eric256	thanks. i'll play with it some
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21:58	svnbot6	r7769 \| eric256++ \| Trouble updating perl.t so i'm trying perl2.t
21:58	eric256	arg
21:59	eric256	i deleted a file and i can't get svk to pull it back to my folder
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22:02	theorbtwo	Oooh, I like the highliting the line of the test by result.
22:03	eric256	any ideas how to force svk to pull a file from the repo that i deleted localy? tried svk pull, svk up, svk pull perl.t, svk sync....blah it hates me
22:05	revdiablo	You removed but didn't commit yet? With svn it'd be 'svn revert'
22:05	revdiablo	I dunno if svk has something analagous
22:05	eric256	yea tried that too.
22:07	* eric256	is nearly to the point of deleteing the whole thing and checking it out agian
22:10	eric256	hehe. /me saved over the new copy with an old copy and commited that....joy
22:10	eric256	lol
22:21	Juerd	Oh no!
22:21	Juerd	There's no turning back!
22:21	Juerd	Now we depend on the backup tape from a week ago!
22:22	Juerd	Let's hope the data's still on the two year old maglint...
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22:53	rafl_	Good evening.
22:53	Juerd	If that makes you happy, sure :)
22:53	Juerd	Have a good one yourself
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23:02	nothingmuch	rafl_: you have increased my hacker mojo significantly
23:02	nothingmuch	people respect me now
23:03	rafl_	nothingmuch: Did I? Why?
23:03	rafl_	And WTF is a hacker mojo anyway? :-)
23:03	nothingmuch	the debian pkg ;-)
23:03	nothingmuch	it's the amount of rezpekt you get from other people =)
23:06	rafl_	What do people use those modules for? I only packaged them as reverse dependencies.
23:16	rafl_	And beside that: The honor is mine! I packaged it!!1
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23:40	eric256	is there a way to have perl output the time and timezone? ;) then the updated stamp on tests.pugcode.org would have some meaning. ;)
23:41	eric256	any comments on the columns in the file listing would be appriciated too ;)
23:42	wolverian	eric256, perldoc -f time
23:42	rafl_	Thought localtime could do that.
23:43	wolverian	that's what I meant.
23:43	wolverian	:(
23:44	eric256	neither say anything about timezones.
23:47	wolverian	it's right there in the localtime string!
23:47	eric256	not on feather.
23:47	wolverian	huh. you're right.
23:48	eric256	or on my computer. lol
23:48	eric256	?eval localtime();
23:48	evalbot_7769	\Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 48), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 909348000000), ("sec" => 29), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
23:48	eric256	sure pugs has it. ;)
23:48	wolverian	nice
23:48	wolverian	it's even an object :)
23:49	wolverian	?eval localtime.tzname
23:49	evalbot_7769	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
23:49	wolverian	well thank's for teasing
23:49	eric256	?eval localtime().{tzname};
23:49	evalbot_7769	Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
23:49	eric256	?eval localtime().<tzname>;
23:49	evalbot_7769	\"CEST"
23:49	wolverian	I like objects more.
23:49	wolverian	note that you can write that:
23:49	wolverian	?eval localtime<tzname>
23:49	evalbot_7769	\Time::Local.new(("day" => 1), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::false), ("min" => 0), ("month" => 1), ("picosec" => 0), ("sec" => 0), ("tz" => 3600), ("tzname" => "CET"), ("wday" => 7), ("yday" => 0), ("year" => 2000));
23:50	wolverian	or maybe not.
23:50	wolverian	?eval localtime.<tzname>
23:50	evalbot_7769	Error: unexpected "." expecting term, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
23:50	eric256	lol
23:50	wolverian	that should work, though
23:50	wolverian	?eval localtime()<tzname>
23:50	evalbot_7769	\"CEST"
23:50	eric256	maybe no. because localtime can accept a parameter
23:50	theorbtwo	Huh?
23:51	theorbtwo	Isn't it just CET in Europe now?
23:52	* eric256	has no clue regarding anything involving time...whats the offset for CEST? it says the timezon is 7200 but what is that? and why did it just siwtch between CEST and CET? /me confused
23:53	wolverian	theorbtwo, not yet.
23:53	wolverian	theorbtwo, in Finland it's still two hours of EEST :)
23:53	theorbtwo	Oh -- at 1 UTC, not 1 local.
23:54	wolverian	right.
23:56	theorbtwo	CEST is GMT+2; CET is GMT+1.
23:57	theorbtwo	And if your clock is already saying CET, then it's a bit off as it shouldn't be CET for another 1 and a half minutes.
23:57	theorbtwo	(Mark.)
23:58	eric256	?eval localtime();
23:58	evalbot_7769	\Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 58), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 18804000000), ("sec" => 14), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
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23:58	Juerd	(what) (are) (all) (those) (parens) (there)?
23:59	theorbtwo	It is looking a bit lispy.
23:59	wolverian	maybe it just wants to make sure.
23:59	theorbtwo	OK, summer time has ended as of....
23:59	theorbtwo	...now.

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