Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2005-10-29

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
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00:33 rafl theorbtwo: ;-)
00:34 rafl theorbtwo: It's kind of usual in germany though. night == Nacht; eight == acht; N8 == Nacht.
00:36 theorbtwo Oh.  I suppose that makes sense... in German.
00:37 rafl Well, not even there, imho.
00:37 theorbtwo It's stupid still, but at least it makes sense, which is something.
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02:45 luqui Holásteis!
02:49 scook0 err...hi
02:49 scook0 nice 'role' post, btw
02:49 theorbtwo A happy all-holows-eve to you too.
02:49 luqui thanks
02:50 * luqui is going to be whatshisface from Clockwork Orange
02:50 * theorbtwo has nothing planned, sadly.
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03:19 buu All holows, eh?
03:20 luqui wow... http://www.securetactics.com/SpySoftware
03:20 luqui commercial trojans
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04:00 nothingmuch Alex deLarge methinks
04:00 nothingmuch he's a very froody droog
04:00 autrijus *purr*
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04:01 * nothingmuch remembers why he doesn't play computer games
04:01 nothingmuch but it's too late again ;-)
04:01 autrijus why?
04:01 nothingmuch addiction problems
04:01 * nothingmuch loses track of time
04:01 nothingmuch and gets nothing done
04:01 nothingmuch but my brain needs the rest
04:01 nothingmuch i've been on the brink of burning myself out for weeks now
04:02 autrijus do remember that this will pass, and get enough rest
04:02 nothingmuch aye
04:02 * nothingmuch is constantly letting his people die in Rainbow Six 3
04:02 nothingmuch which is a bad thing
04:02 autrijus I am _very_ happy that you did not let me introduce you to nethack.
04:02 nothingmuch but I cant do any better
04:03 nothingmuch ongoing things that can be paused are usually not a big problem
04:03 nothingmuch i tend to play several minutes a day of those
04:03 nothingmuch but i'm still afraid of it ;-)
04:03 luqui nothingmuch, yes, that's the one
04:04 nothingmuch if we would have holloween i would dress up as the korova milk bar to complement
04:04 luqui If my desktop's hard drive were present I would probably be addicted to rag doll kung fu at this point
04:04 nothingmuch i'll need some mannequins, and milk, and a high end water cooling system ;-)
04:04 luqui on the other hand, the reviews weren't that great
04:04 nothingmuch (cpu cooling system)
04:04 luqui :-p
04:04 nothingmuch rag doll kung fu?
04:05 luqui an experimental fighting game that I've been looking forward to
04:05 * luqui is a fan of fighting games... or rather would be if any of them were any good
04:05 nothingmuch hmm... no mac version?
04:05 luqui nein
04:06 * nothingmuch watches the trailer instead
04:09 nothingmuch that would be very cool with a programming edge in it
04:09 luqui what would you program?
04:10 nothingmuch combos
04:10 luqui aa
04:10 * nothingmuch really likes tekken (3) because of all the juggling
04:10 nothingmuch it's a very elegant way to kick ass
04:11 * luqui always found that annoying, being at the kicked ass side
04:11 nothingmuch ah
04:11 luqui I think Soul Calibur is about as good a fighting game as they've made yet
04:11 nothingmuch i am always on the ass kicked side, except in tekken and unreal tournament
04:11 * nothingmuch hasn't played that yet
04:12 luqui it's pretty good.  But it's still attached to the realtime/buttonmash/energybar paradigm.
04:12 luqui Glorified tekken, as it were.  It's just very well balanced.
04:12 nothingmuch buttonmashing is not that fun
04:12 nothingmuch what I like in tekken is that you sometimes need to wait a second to get something in
04:13 nothingmuch if you are slightly less trigger happy than 100% you will win
04:13 scook0 ever tried virtua fighter?
04:13 buu You know what's better? Quake.
04:13 luqui heh
04:13 nothingmuch scook0: my parents didn't let me play violent games at that age ;-)
04:13 * nothingmuch doesn't like quake
04:13 buu FREAK.
04:13 nothingmuch it's not as fun aasUT
04:13 buu meh
04:13 buu Same thing.
04:13 nothingmuch nuh uh
04:13 nothingmuch UT has more style
04:13 buu Does UT have strafe jumping and such?
04:13 luqui I remember when there was just Quake.  No Quake 2, no quake 3 arena.  When you said "I'm going to go online and frag somebody", you just went online and fragged somebody.
04:13 buu heh
04:13 nothingmuch you mean strafing in the air? or jumping sideways?
04:14 buu I remember playing q2 over a dialup
04:14 buu nothingmuch: Nope.
04:14 luqui (I actually never played Quake... any version.  I'm not a big fan of FPSs)
04:14 luqui By which I mean I despise them
04:14 buu Sucks to be you!
04:14 nothingmuch that wasn't a yes or no question, that was multiple choice ;-)
04:14 buu (0 || 0) == 0!
04:14 nothingmuch uh, your point being?
04:15 buu That 'no' means no to both.
04:15 luqui But 0! == 1
04:15 luqui :-)
04:15 buu luqui: 0! is a syntax error!
04:15 nothingmuch ah
04:15 nothingmuch so wtf is strafe jumping if it's not one of those?
04:15 scook0 also !0 == 0!
04:15 buu nothingmuch: Strafe jumping is when you accelerate via jumping
04:15 luqui woah
04:15 luqui that's scary
04:15 nothingmuch ah
04:15 buu ?eval 0!
04:15 evalbot_7763 Error:  unexpected "!" expecting "x", "d", octal digit, "o", "b", digit, fraction, exponent, term postfix, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
04:15 scook0 those crazy physics exploits?
04:15 nothingmuch that's bad game design
04:16 buu nothingmuch: Bad.. game.. de.. what? What the hell? How can you even make that claim?
04:16 buu Obviously the rocket launchers in UT are bad game design, cause they shoot rockets.
04:16 buu I mean, hey, if we don't need logic..
04:16 luqui ?eval sub postfix:<!> ($x) { if $x == 0 { 1 } else { $x * ($x-1)! } }   5!
04:16 evalbot_7763 Error:  unexpected "i" expecting ";", statements or "}" reserved word
04:16 luqui qua?
04:16 nothingmuch ?eval multi postfix:<!> (0) { 1 }; multi postfix:<!> ($n) { $n * ($n - 1)! }; 5!
04:16 evalbot_7763 Error:  unexpected "0" expecting formal parameter, ":" or ")"
04:16 luqui didn't that used to work?
04:16 nothingmuch darn
04:17 nothingmuch buu: it's bad game design because it's stupid behavior
04:17 buu nothingmuch: You mean stupider than taking a rocket in the face and surviving?
04:17 nothingmuch someone didn't notice the fault in the physics engine and jump parameters
04:17 scook0 I'm not sure it was deliberate
04:17 buu nothingmuch: Dude, they put it in there deliberately.
04:17 theorbtwo nothingmuch: Because it's not like the real world?
04:17 buu Southen: It was deliberate after the first patch =]
04:17 nothingmuch no, because it's imbalanced
04:17 buu oh
04:17 nothingmuch it would be nicer if:
04:17 buu Obviously only one player can strafe jump.
04:17 nothingmuch you could jump around and be slow
04:17 nothingmuch or be a sitting duck and go fast
04:18 buu Oh wait, every player can strafe jump. Thus making it balanced.
04:18 * luqui thinks that you only have bad game design when you make a game that isn't fun, because you've missed the whole point of making a game.  For example, Deus Ex 2.
04:18 nothingmuch what does deus ex do wrong?
04:18 luqui Deus Ex was great.  Deus Ex 2 was too caught up in being a movie to be a good game.
04:19 buu Deus Ex was so awesome. I've always wanted to play DX2, but everyone hated it =[
04:22 * scook0 interleaves IRC with rounds of counterstrike...
04:23 luqui counterstrike was a FPS that I actually liked pretty well
04:25 scook0 I never got into it in the HL1 days
04:25 nothingmuch oh god: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/10/28/no_trademark_on_stra.html
04:25 luqui scook0, likewise.  I started at CS:S
04:26 theorbtwo Well, at least they came up with a reasonable result, even if their reasoning was completely bonkers.
04:26 luqui nothingmuch, is it just me, or did they completely miss the point?
04:27 nothingmuch who  did?
04:27 luqui the article
04:27 luqui about strawberries
04:27 luqui the court
04:28 nothingmuch yep
04:28 theorbtwo The question was "can the scent of fresh strawberies be trademarked".
04:28 theorbtwo Their answer was "no".
04:28 theorbtwo Good answer.
04:28 nothingmuch i was actually "oh god"ing more at the court than the company
04:29 nothingmuch theorbtwo: the sad thing is that the answer was actually 'no, because strawberies have *five different* scents'
04:29 theorbtwo Yes.
04:29 nothingmuch on the other hand, grass has one scent, so that's OK
04:29 theorbtwo Not such a good reason.
04:29 theorbtwo Right.
04:29 theorbtwo I hope this is largely poor reporting.
04:30 * nothingmuch somehow doubts the BBC will make it sound this bad
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04:30 nothingmuch i trust the BBC more than I trust the judicinal and political systems that govern stuff that has to do with patents and trademarks and all that crap
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05:14 stevan luqui: ping
05:15 stevan luqui: I sent you a mail re: theory.pod, I am trying to understand where it fits in with the metamodel/object-space/runtime stuff I have been working on
05:16 stevan I think it does all fit together to a degree, but the code in theory.pod is just so haskellish, so I am unclear of the details
05:16 stevan anyway check your mail,.. I have to sleep now &
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05:50 xinming seen autrijus
05:50 jabbot xinming: autrijus was seen 1 hours 47 minutes 50 seconds ago
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06:17 xinming by the way, Is continuation a bit like Rule in perl 6?
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06:22 luqui welll... uh
06:22 luqui no
06:22 luqui rule execution may be implemented using continuations, but the similarities end there
06:22 luqui unless there is a similarity I am not seeing
06:23 xinming luqui: thanks, need more reading on haskell tutorial.
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07:09 * autrijus proceeds to go to the airport (to brussels)
07:10 autrijus see you in a few hours... safely in liz's place and ready to hack
07:10 autrijus <- almost finished PickAxe2
07:10 autrijus which fills my mind with weird constructs like
07:10 autrijus my $x = if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
07:10 autrijus (instead of)
07:10 xinming autrijus: did you meet Larry? :-P
07:10 autrijus my $x = do if 3 then { 4 } else { 5 };
07:10 autrijus xinming: sure did
07:11 autrijus worked on the tuple syntax a bit
07:11 xinming my $x = 3 ?? 4 !! 5 ;
07:11 xinming why not use this?
07:11 autrijus sure
07:11 autrijus but still
07:11 autrijus my $x = given $y { when 3 { 4 } default { 5 } };
07:11 autrijus (in ruby all statements are expressions)
07:11 autrijus they don't have a Stmt form, it's all Exp
07:12 xinming autrijus: hmm, did Larry consider construct the object using class name in some situation?
07:12 xinming oh,ok
07:12 autrijus xinming: I don't know... you mean like
07:12 autrijus my $dbh = DBI(dsn => $dsn, user => 'foo');
07:12 autrijus ?
07:13 xinming yes.
07:13 autrijus I think it makes sense. the "new" method though is then implicit in this case
07:13 autrijus which may or may not be a good thing
07:13 autrijus <- coding monkey, not really designer
07:14 xinming hmm, sometimes, we don't need an instance to be held.
07:14 autrijus :)
07:14 * autrijus goes packing some more
07:14 xinming class A { has $.a; method show { $.a.say } }; A( a = 5 ).show;
07:15 xinming if we use A( a => 5 ).new.show,
07:15 autrijus oh, singleton classes
07:15 autrijus ?
07:15 xinming the .new is a bit annonying
07:16 xinming if there are many classes like this. :-P
07:17 autrijus I tend to agree :)
07:17 xinming hmm, most times, the small program will only hold only an instance of a class
07:19 xinming page( document => "path/to/doc", save_to = "path/to/cache" ).process; cache( file = "path/to/cache" ).show;
07:20 xinming that's what I think useful :-)
07:20 autrijus nodnod... otoh you can do  
07:21 xinming what does otoh mean? :-S
07:21 scook0 xinming: I can see Larry's point about wanting Classname($foo) to be a cast rather than a constructor though
07:21 autrijus on the other hand
07:21 autrijus class A { sub A is export { call ./new } };
07:21 autrijus or something like that
07:22 xinming hmm, Yes, I know, we can make method to be an constructor...
07:22 xinming autrijus: But, If there are method... This is not handful..
07:23 scook0 but if we're going to have Haskell-style data types, we'll need a shorter construction form anyway
07:23 xinming if there are lots of methods.
07:23 scook0 A:( a => 5 ).show  # woo, colon!
07:24 autrijus _everybody_ wants colons!
07:24 scook0 because they're so versatile
07:24 xinming hmm, why not make `my A: $o .= new( ... )` ?
07:24 autrijus off to airport... bbl :) *wave* &
07:24 scook0 and because everything else is already taken
07:25 scook0 xinming: what are you suggesting?
07:25 xinming and use A( ... ) as a constructor?
07:25 xinming for now, we use `my A $o .= new( ... )` to get an instance.
07:26 xinming hmm, and I saw Larry replied about my question,
07:26 xinming So, I just suggest using `my A: $o .= new` instead of `my A $o .= new`
07:26 scook0 xinming: oh, I didn't realise you hadn't read it
07:27 scook0 I don't think that was his objection though
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07:28 xinming certainly, I won't be able to think as far as you can do, So, Just show my Humble opinion. :-(
07:28 xinming http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/23874
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07:39 xinming ?eval class A { has $.a; }; new A( a => 1 );
07:39 evalbot_7763 Error: cannot cast from VObject (MkObject {objType = (mkType "Class"), objAttrs = <ref>, objOpaque = Nothing, objId = 51}) to Pugs.AST.Internals.VCode (VCode)
07:40 xinming the perl 5 style doesn't works. :'(
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07:59 xinming anyone here can tell me if `class.new a => 1` would work? IMHO This is a bit like a function call without parenthesis.
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08:04 Detonite Morning
08:05 xinming afternoon here. :-P
08:06 Detonite Well the point comes across still I hope
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09:03 rafl_ What tests do I need to run to chech if parrot embedding works?
09:11 scook0 xinming: `class.new:a(1)` should work
09:12 scook0 `class.new a=>1` won't work because method calls need either parens or adverbs
09:16 xinming scook0: thanks
09:17 scook0 I think someone (Juerd?) was trying to get rid of the method-call-parens restriction, but I don't know if that went anywhere
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09:18 xinming hmm, by the way, how about `new class: a(1)` ?
09:18 xinming indirect object syntax can be used in method calls, how about the constructor?
09:19 xinming though, It's a special method.
09:23 scook0 I think `new MyClass: a => 1` or `new MyClass: :a(1)` would be the syntax
09:24 scook0 `new MyClass: a(1)` would call &a with arg 1
09:36 * xinming thinks perl 6 might be the most complicated language in the world...
09:36 Juerd scook0: I want method calls to be possibly parenless
09:37 Juerd Just like sub calls
09:37 Juerd It just takes everything until the end of the expression,
09:37 scook0 what was the original motivation for them being different?
09:37 xinming so do I, as method is kind of sub...
09:37 Juerd That the signature is unknown at compile time, and Perl cannot know how many arguments to take
09:38 Juerd lc $foo, $bar is actually lc($foo), $bar
09:38 Juerd While split $foo, $bar is split($foo, $bar)
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09:41 scook0 do one-arg subs automatically become prefix-unary ops?
09:41 Juerd It works like that in Perl 5
09:41 Juerd And isn't specified to change, so yes.
09:43 scook0 I just wonder how that interacts with multis
09:50 Juerd The same
09:51 scook0 (there are a lot of things I wonder about multis)
09:52 scook0 like being able to pass positional args using named-arg syntax
09:53 scook0 for singular subs, it's easy enough
09:53 scook0 for multis, it's *possible*, but I doubt it can be done efficiently
10:09 r0nny has joined #perl6
10:09 r0nny yo
10:09 r0nny rafl_: alive ?
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10:26 rafl_ r0nny: Sure.
10:29 r0nny rafl_: any idea hol long it will take to make your sixpan tools run under gentoo ?
10:29 r0nny hol = how
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10:30 rafl_ They already do, imho.
10:30 rafl_ Install dpkg and dpkg-deb and go for it.
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10:32 r0nny hmm
10:32 r0nny rafl_: is there a svn repo up allready ?
10:34 rafl_ r0nny: kane uses p4. I'll set up an svk mirror soon.
10:35 r0nny p4 ?
10:35 rafl_ perforce.
10:35 r0nny sad - its comnerecial
10:36 r0nny well - going to read the license
10:36 rafl_ Well, you don't need to pay for a usable version.
10:36 rafl_ I also like it, of course.
10:37 r0nny atm im a monotone fan
10:38 rafl_ Well, pugs uses svn/svk. I'll check it in its repository.
10:40 r0nny i allready installed p4
10:41 r0nny repo url ?
10:41 rafl_ I don't have my laptop handy. I guess p4.elixus.org or something like that.
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10:43 r0nny argh - wont work :/
10:44 xerox Howdy.
10:44 rafl_ r0nny: ask kane or look at the wiki.
10:44 rafl_ r0nny: BrainStorming. There's a p4 url somewhere.
10:44 r0nny ok
10:48 r0nny rafl_: cant do a checkout :/
10:48 rafl_ Ask kane.
10:48 r0nny where is he ?
10:49 rafl_ [email@hidden.address] or on irc.perl.org sometimes.
11:05 drbean h /server
11:06 r0nny hmm
11:06 r0nny hes online, but not answering :/
11:07 r0nny guess hes busy
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11:41 Juerd ARGH
11:41 Juerd The term "auto reference" really clouds vision and understanding
11:41 Juerd It makes things seem MUCH more magical than they are.
11:42 Juerd An array doesn't "auto reference" "when needed".
11:42 Juerd It returns a reference to itself in scalar context, that's all.
11:42 Juerd And yes, Array context is a form of scalar context
11:43 Juerd The only thing that's a bit magical is automatic *de*referencing
11:44 Juerd THAT has the "when used as" thing.
11:44 Juerd "when used as" an array, an arrayref dereferences automatically.
11:44 Juerd But it's not so that an array "when not used as" an array, automatically references.
11:45 Juerd Or, alternatively, call +@foo auto-elemsing
11:45 Juerd And ~@foo auto-stringification
11:45 Juerd Which it is NOT. It's not auto, it's explicit because of context.
11:45 xerox Do you know in which debian package are uu{encode,decode} ?
11:46 Juerd apt-cache search uuencode
11:46 Juerd Pick the one beginning with s.
11:46 rafl_ apt-file search bin/uuencode
11:51 xinming xern: try apt-cache search uuencode
11:51 Juerd xinming: Now there's a novel idea.
11:51 xinming sharutils
11:51 Juerd xinming: Glad you thought of it.
11:51 Juerd Otherwise he'd never have found it!
11:52 xinming Juerd: :-) what I use apt-cache most time, as it might find some good related softwares. :-)
11:52 Juerd xinming: I think I have to agree.
11:53 Juerd (is blindness bliss too?)
11:53 xinming apt-cache search uuencode|grep uuencode
11:53 xinming aish - ish/base64/uuencoded_file converter
11:53 xinming sharutils - shar, unshar, uuencode, uudecode
11:54 Juerd You're so smart.
11:55 xinming ...
11:56 Juerd I just wish I had thought of that
11:56 theorbtwo (apt-cache)++
11:57 xinming apt-cache is a better tool most time in my opinion, apt-file is better for searching using absolute path for a file.
11:58 Juerd I use both
11:58 Juerd But apt-cache much more often
11:58 * rafl_ as well.
11:59 rafl_ But for the given task (finding a binary) apt-file seems to be a better tool.
11:59 * xinming nods.
11:59 Juerd rafl_: Well, yes. But uudecode is often used within larger tasks, for which apt-cache might reveal integrated solutions
12:02 * xinming really likes perl 6.
12:04 xinming ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1 ?? "true".say !! "false".say ;
12:04 evalbot_7763 true bool::true
12:04 xinming Is this a bug?
12:04 xinming $1 get nothing, But it is true.
12:04 xinming s/get/gets/
12:04 rafl_ ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; $1.perl
12:04 evalbot_7763 "\\MkMatch \{matchOk = True, matchFrom = 0, matchTo = 0, matchStr = \"\", matchSubPos = [], matchSubNamed = \{}}"
12:05 xinming I know there is a property can be set using `0 but true`
12:05 xinming But, Why here is true?
12:06 rafl_ ?eval "asdfg/" ~~ rx:perl5{^(\w+)?/(\w+)?}; "$1"
12:06 evalbot_7763 ""
12:06 rafl_ I think it's a bug.
12:06 xinming hmm, I don't know which to choose. :-)
12:07 xinming we can say that it is a bug, because null string should be false.
12:07 rafl_ ?eval ""
12:07 evalbot_7763 ""
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12:07 rafl_ ?eval ?""
12:07 evalbot_7763 bool::false
12:07 xinming But, if we need the match status of the match, this might be right behaivour
12:07 rafl_ Well, write a test in t/pugsbugs/
12:08 xinming Ok, >_<
12:08 theorbtwo Write a test when you don't know what the correct behavior is?
12:10 rafl_ Hm, good point.
12:12 xinming I think, This might be better to ask on the mailing-list.
12:12 Juerd ?eval "foobar" =~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--"
12:12 evalbot_7763 Error: Can't modify constant item: VStr "foobar"
12:13 Juerd ?eval "foobar" ~~ rx:perl5/(foo)(bar)/; "--$0--$1--"
12:13 evalbot_7763 "--foo--bar--"
12:13 Juerd Simple case works.
12:14 Juerd Re (\w+)? not matching anything: its variable should be false
12:14 Juerd Not because it matched a null string, because it cannot match a null string.
12:15 Juerd But because it didn't match, because of the + condition.
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12:26 xinming so many because... >_<
12:26 xinming the test is written,
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12:26 xinming after the bug is fixed, Where should this test be?
12:27 evalbot_7764 has joined #perl6
12:27 xinming Ok, I think I know, rules
12:27 theorbtwo rules/p5, or something?
12:27 svnbot6 r7764 | yiyihu++ | add a bug test for numbered match variable.
12:28 xinming maybe
12:28 xinming I wonder, what will `` be used for in perl 6?
12:29 xinming still the same as perl 5?
12:32 scook0 xinming: I'm not sure, but I think `` will be reserved for the user
12:32 scook0 (for P5 ``, use q:x//)
12:37 xinming Larry might think he used too much... :-P leave a ascii for user to play with
12:38 theorbtwo qx isn't useful enough to take a rare ASCII character for.
12:39 scook0 bah, all Perl 6 users should just go out and buy APL keyboards :-P
12:39 theorbtwo On the other hand, it has too-strong associations with qx in many people's minds to use for something else.
12:39 xinming I ever saw a pic for a keyboard with only '1' and '0' on it...
12:39 * xinming wants one...
12:40 scook0 theorbtwo: personally, I always see Haskell function-infixification
12:40 xinming by the way, hmm, how do we type the unicode form of << ?
12:41 xinming Do we have to open a program which list the unicode chars and lookup one by one?
12:41 xinming characters*
12:41 scook0 xinming: I use AltGr+z
12:41 scook0 but it differs from platform to platform
12:42 xinming I use debian.
12:42 * xinming even don't know which key is AltGr
12:42 xinming the Alt key at the right hand side?
12:42 scook0 the right Alt, but you need to enable a keyboard layout that supports it
12:43 xinming hmm, which keyboard layout you use please?
12:44 scook0 it's a US-International one, let me check the name...
12:44 scook0 U.S. English w/ ISO9995-3
12:45 scook0 (I'm just using the Gnome keyboard config under Ubuntu)
12:45 xinming I will choose Gnome also. :-)
12:46 xinming haha, It's designed for perl 6
12:46 xinming «»
12:46 scook0 :»)
12:46 xinming → This might be better for method call.
12:47 xinming How about the Zip operator?
12:47 theorbtwo There's a docs/quickref/unicode.
12:48 xinming theorbtwo: thanks
12:48 scook0 ¥ (shift-altgr-y)
12:48 theorbtwo If it doesn't have the information you want, add to it.
12:48 theorbtwo I personally use an en-US map with an en-UK keyboard, and use the extra key for compose.
12:48 theorbtwo It works /wonderfully/ for me, but isn't terribly applicable to most people (who aren't Americans using European keyboards).
12:49 xinming I wonder, Is there any differences between en-US en-UK keymap?
12:49 theorbtwo Xinming: Lots.
12:49 theorbtwo Not as many as en_US and de_DE, but still different enough to be quite annoying.
12:49 xinming well, in China, all Keyboard layouts are almosts the same.
12:50 xinming If you don't change the settings in Windows, all are the same. :-)
12:50 theorbtwo American and European keyboards are even physically different -- the ones in Europe have an extra key.
12:51 scook0 where is that extra key, by the way?
12:51 theorbtwo Just to the right of left shift.
12:51 xinming hmm, the extra key is not the problem, the problem is that qwert and dvorak layout keyboard. :-)
12:51 xinming Anyone here use dvorak layout?
12:52 scook0 I think Juerd might ... I don't myself
12:52 theorbtwo Juerd uses a Dutch version of dvorak, which I think is of his own devising.
12:53 scook0 ooh, hardcore!
12:53 Juerd theorbtwo: ?
12:53 theorbtwo Oh, I didn't relize you were here.
12:53 Juerd theorbtwo: My layout is US Dvorak.
12:53 theorbtwo Oh.
12:53 theorbtwo Well, I was close?
12:53 Juerd My absence shouldn't be a reason for misinformation
12:53 xinming hmm, for perl 6, there might cause another problem is that, if people wish to do programming in pure console Which can't display the unicode ...
12:53 Juerd I use dvorak, not a Dutch version of it.
12:54 Juerd US keyboards work wonderfully for Dutch.
12:54 Juerd US QWERTY and US Dvorak
12:54 theorbtwo Oh.
12:54 theorbtwo I'm sorry, Juerd.
12:54 Juerd Dutch keyboards exist, but they're not used much.
12:54 Juerd IBM for a long time remained ignorant about this, and shipped Dutch keyboards.
12:54 integral hmm, has someone changed how the makefile searches for parrot?  it can't find my parrot tree located at ../parrot :-/
12:54 Juerd They finally understood their mistake only half a year ago.
12:55 theorbtwo Juerd: US keyboards are normal there?
12:55 Juerd theorbtwo: Yes.
12:55 xinming I use Emacs, And ever wished to changed to dvorak layout. the problem is that ←↓→ for Emacs are all different... that makes me go crazy
12:55 Juerd theorbtwo: Dutch keyboards suck.
12:55 Juerd theorbtwo: And we Dutch know how to adapt to ASCII.
12:55 Juerd theorbtwo: The only difference today is that we have US keyboards with a &euro; on the 5% key.
12:55 theorbtwo That's odd... I would think you'd use some sort of more local keyboard.
12:55 xinming in mainland China, all keyboard layouts are qwerty :-)
12:55 Juerd theorbtwo: Why? We talk in ASCII nowadays
12:55 integral the % key?!
12:56 Juerd theorbtwo: Nobody writes "ij" as a single letter anymore, even :)
12:56 Juerd Well, really old people do.
12:56 theorbtwo Economies of scale.
12:57 Juerd And we've adapted to ISO standards for currencies too
12:57 Juerd People have used NLG here, instead of the florin sign
12:57 Juerd Now, EUR, that is: unless you're a Windows cluebie, because then you are supposed to use altgr+5 for it, which generates (in Windows) chr(128), which shouldn't quite be the euro sign.
12:58 theorbtwo Ugh... no, it shouldn't.
12:58 theorbtwo I'm used to using € and £ now, and use utf8 as my native charset.
12:58 Juerd Also, we generally just leave out diaereses
12:58 theorbtwo Dutch is readable like that?
12:59 Juerd Certainly.
12:59 theorbtwo Nifty.
12:59 xinming ¹²³
12:59 theorbtwo Germans apparently get annoyed when you use the ascii versions.
12:59 xinming How to type the small 456?
12:59 xinming ¼½¾{[]}\
12:59 xinming oops, sorry,
12:59 Juerd The diaeresis on the last e in Belgie is just to indicate that the "ie" isn't a diphthong
13:00 Juerd Which without diaeresis it would be
13:00 Juerd theorbtwo: It's not an umlaut, but a "trema".
13:00 theorbtwo Superscript 1..3 have latin-1 chars for them, for some odd reason.  Superscript 4..9 and 0 do not, so there is no way to type them.
13:00 integral the same as English,   different from German (umlaut ne diaeresis)
13:00 theorbtwo Oh, right.  Forgot about that.
13:00 Juerd theorbtwo: It only breaks diphthongs
13:00 Juerd integral: diaeresis is the name for the glyph. Both are.
13:01 theorbtwo German has well-defined ascii versions as well -- ß becomes ss, ö becomes oe.  People don't like them.
13:01 integral Juerd: my expression wasn't well typed then ;-)
13:01 Juerd theorbtwo: I haven't met Germans who told me they hated the ascii versions.
13:01 Juerd And in some German IRC channels I've visited, they were quite common
13:01 theorbtwo Apparently some of Jess's ex-coworkers did.
13:02 rafl_ theorbtwo: I like them. The other chars aren't on my keyboard. :-)
13:02 Juerd theorbtwo: We also don't use accents anymore
13:02 theorbtwo Oh -- I didn't realize you were German, rafl.
13:02 Juerd theorbtwo: Only in print, they're still commonly used
13:02 theorbtwo I didn't realize Dutch ever did.  I'm fairly ignorant of Dutch.
13:02 rafl_ theorbtwo: I am, though.
13:03 Juerd theorbtwo: Which means that our ways with a word processor are very different from our ways in e-mail, irc, usenet and web fora :)
13:04 theorbtwo Living in Europe hasn't really disuaded me from my typically-American opinion on language:
13:04 theorbtwo You should all learn ours.
13:04 Juerd I rely on the spelling checker to give me tremas and accents.
13:04 Juerd Web sites follow the normal rules too
13:04 Juerd When composing HTML, I write Belgi&euml;
13:04 Juerd Not Belgie
13:05 Juerd A similar thing happens with Esperanto
13:05 Juerd For printed documents, I care about the correct circumflexes
13:06 Juerd For websites, I care about them, but they're too much trouble (lack of good HTML support)
13:06 Juerd And anywhere else, I just use the ASCII variants
13:06 Juerd cx, gx, hx, jx, sx, ux
13:06 integral a
13:06 Juerd See also juerd.nl/iksoj
13:07 Juerd (Esperanto has no X in the alphabet, which makes these unambiguous)
13:07 theorbtwo You should possibly revise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Writing_system
13:09 Juerd It's still all correct
13:09 Juerd It just doesn't cover typical Dutch adaption-because-of-laziness
13:11 theorbtwo Yeah.
13:11 theorbtwo I think that's very interesting from a socological viewpoint.
13:11 Juerd That it doesn't mention the ij ligature is bad.
13:11 Juerd (It's a letter, not a ligature, by the way)
13:11 Juerd I've stopped editing wikipedia articles, though
13:11 Juerd Most commonly the changes are undone within minutes
13:12 Juerd By someone who claims they know more about the subject
13:12 Juerd And if you prove your numbers are correct, then typically you're not allowed to use them, because they're part of an official report, which is copyrighted, blah blah.
13:13 Juerd Wikipedia is a nice source of information
13:13 Juerd Just don't trust any of it.
13:15 theorbtwo That's one of the few really nice things I've found about American copyright law.
13:16 theorbtwo Offical government reports are /not/ subject to copyright.
13:16 theorbtwo This is in sharp contrast to the UK where not only are they copyright, they are a special magical copyright that /never/ expires.
13:17 Juerd They're not subject to copyright here either. HOWEVER, wikipedians generally do not know this.
13:17 Juerd And it's often very unclear whether something is government information
13:17 evalbot_7764 has quit IRC (Remote closed the connection)
13:17 Juerd Our goverment is partly run by private organizations, and their exact status is hard to discover
13:18 theorbtwo That's also true of the US government these days.
13:18 evalbot_7765 has joined #perl6
13:18 Juerd afk
13:18 theorbtwo ...and things that a private company made that were paid for by the government /are/ subject to copyright.
13:18 theorbtwo ...and to patent.
13:18 theorbtwo Which quite annoys me.
13:21 svnbot6 r7765 | juerd++ | clarification
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13:51 xinming how to know if the user is logged in in web programming please?
13:52 xinming Or anyone here can show me a url about this category?
13:52 xinming If I use google and use keyword, login web programming  the results aren't useful...
13:53 xinming hmm, Use perl 5.
13:53 theorbtwo Try search.cpan.org, session.
13:54 xinming theorbtwo: thanks
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13:59 xinming is session implemented by cookie?
14:00 stef_ has joined #perl6
14:05 theorbtwo Generally.
14:05 theorbtwo Better, though, is to use the cookie to identify the individual browser, and store the mapping from cookies to any useful information on the server.
14:05 theorbtwo Otherwise, people can use the cookie for various nefarious purposes.
14:18 xinming thanks. I think I know how to do this. :-)
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15:48 xinming find a bug, But really hard to catch...
15:48 * xinming is still trying
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16:08 r0nny hmm - sweet - the perl6 channel is bound to meta-p
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16:16 svnbot6 r7766 | iblech++ | * Usual svn props.
16:16 svnbot6 r7766 | iblech++ | * t/pugsbugs/numbered-match-variable.t: Added a subtest.
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16:40 eric256__ hey someone made the tests on smooke.pugscode.org actualy point to the tests!!! ;)
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17:04 xinming anyone here can tell me if the class in perl 6 has to be use Upper case at the first letter?
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17:06 eric256__ no there are no case restrictions on class names
17:07 eric256__ ?eval class a {};
17:07 evalbot_7766 undef
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17:08 xinming haha, I finally found the bug... :-P
17:09 xinming ?eval class a { has $.a; method show { $.a.say; } }; class b { has $.a; method BUILD { a.new( a => $.a ).show; }; } b.new( a => 100 );
17:09 evalbot_7766 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&show"
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17:47 xinming ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say;
17:47 evalbot_7766 9 bool::true
17:47 xinming Is this right?
17:47 xinming Is this right behaviour?
17:48 eric256__ ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a - 3 } }; a.new.b.say; $a.say;
17:48 evalbot_7766 6 9 bool::true
17:49 eric256__ what part are you expecting not to work
17:49 xinming ?eval my $a = 9; class a { method b { $a -= 3 } }; a.new.b; $a.say;
17:49 evalbot_7766 6 bool::true
17:49 xinming ...
17:49 xinming hold on.
17:51 xinming ?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update';
17:51 evalbot_7766 \6
17:51 xinming ?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
17:51 evalbot_7766 6 bool::true
17:52 xinming strange...
17:52 xinming I wrote this in test, the $var won't update
17:53 xinming won't be updated.
17:53 eric256__ but it is updated
17:55 xinming eric256__: co the svn
17:55 eric256__ it updated in your tests right there on eval bot. so i'm confused what your problem is.
17:56 xinming eric256__: But this line in test won't work.
17:56 eric256__ ahh. which tests file?
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17:57 svnbot6 r7767 | yiyihu++ | Add 3 tests to test class name and attribute name conflictions...
17:58 xinming pugsbug/class_name_and_attribute_name_confliction.t
18:01 eric256__ hehe. thaty doesn't work in the pugs interactive interface
18:01 eric256__ ?eval my $var = 9;class a { has $.a;method update { $var -= $.a; }}; eval 'a.new( a => 3 ).update'; $var.say
18:01 evalbot_7767 6 bool::true
18:01 eric256__ odd...very odd
18:01 eric256__ ?eval &*PUGS_VERSION
18:01 evalbot_7767 \sub {...}
18:02 eric256__ ?eval $*PUGS_VERSION
18:02 evalbot_7767 \undef
18:02 eric256__ ?eval $*VERSION
18:02 evalbot_7767 \undef
18:02 xinming It's magic version...
18:03 eric256__ if i -e it it does that, if i run it in interactive it doesn't
18:04 xinming and also in test, :-)
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19:29 xinming my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @var>>.new
19:29 xinming should this be valid in perl 6?
19:30 xinming oops
19:30 xinming my @t =( "Int", "Str"); @t>>.new
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19:30 integral hmm, soft references? :-)
19:31 xinming yes
19:32 xinming ?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new( 3 );
19:32 evalbot_7767 Error: Must only use named arguments to new() constructor
19:32 wolverian erm. why not just (Int, Str)>>.new :)
19:32 xinming ?eval my $t = "Int"; $t.new;
19:32 evalbot_7767 Str.new();
19:32 xinming this works,
19:32 xinming but not @t
19:33 wolverian that does _not_ work
19:33 wolverian it calls the .new method of Str
19:33 wolverian not Int, as I think you wanted
19:33 wolverian why do you want to use soft references?
19:33 xinming wolverian: because we some times need dynamic object creation.
19:33 wolverian xinming, use a hash. :)
19:35 xinming the hyper operator exists, so I want that way.. :-)
19:36 wolverian xinming, (Int, Str)>>.new
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20:27 eric256__ hey...i'm setting up tests.pugscode.org to highlight tests that fail or are marked as todo...any ideas what to do when there is more than one test on the same line?  or should i just let it flub those? ;)
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21:20 obra how often is there more than on etest on the same line?
21:20 obra "sounds like the test suite should be fixed"
21:20 eric256 yea. i was thinking the same thing
21:21 eric256 nearly impossible to work with those tests
21:21 eric256 http://feather.perl6.nl/~eric256/t_index/t/builtins/want.html
21:21 eric256 too bright?
21:24 obra  a little bright
21:24 eric256 yea..just commited it if you would like to play with the css some ;)
21:28 svnbot6 r7768 | eric256++ | Upadted catalog_tests.pl script to highlight tests on a pass/fail basis. Needs support for todo, skip, and tests spanning multiple lines.
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21:37 nothingmuch eric256: make the green slightly lighter so there is more contrast between the bg and the text
21:38 eric256 got an exact css change? i'm not good with that stuff ;)
21:38 nothingmuch instead of #0f0 make it around #3f3
21:38 nothingmuch but I'm not good with that stuff either ;-)
21:38 nothingmuch use FF + web developer
21:39 * nothingmuch can't do it now (too many obligations)
21:39 nothingmuch but nice work =)
21:39 eric256 thanks. i'll play with it some
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21:58 svnbot6 r7769 | eric256++ | Trouble updating perl.t so i'm trying perl2.t
21:58 eric256 arg
21:59 eric256 i deleted a file and i can't get svk to pull it back to my folder
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22:02 theorbtwo Oooh, I like the highliting the line of the test by result.
22:03 eric256 any ideas how to force svk to pull a file from the repo that i deleted localy?  tried svk pull, svk up, svk pull perl.t, svk sync....blah it hates me
22:05 revdiablo You removed but didn't commit yet? With svn it'd be 'svn revert'
22:05 revdiablo I dunno if svk has something analagous
22:05 eric256 yea tried that too.
22:07 * eric256 is nearly to the point of deleteing the whole thing and checking it out agian
22:10 eric256 hehe. /me saved over the new copy with an old copy and commited that....joy
22:10 eric256 lol
22:21 Juerd Oh no!
22:21 Juerd There's no turning back!
22:21 Juerd Now we depend on the backup tape from a week ago!
22:22 Juerd Let's hope the data's still on the two year old maglint...
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22:53 rafl_ Good evening.
22:53 Juerd If that makes you happy, sure :)
22:53 Juerd Have a good one yourself
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23:02 nothingmuch rafl_: you have increased my hacker mojo significantly
23:02 nothingmuch people respect me now
23:03 rafl_ nothingmuch: Did I? Why?
23:03 rafl_ And WTF is a hacker mojo anyway? :-)
23:03 nothingmuch the debian pkg ;-)
23:03 nothingmuch it's the amount of rezpekt you get from other people =)
23:06 rafl_ What do people use those modules for? I only packaged them as reverse dependencies.
23:16 rafl_ And beside that: The honor is mine! I packaged it!!1
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23:40 eric256 is there a way to have perl output the time and timezone? ;)  then the updated stamp on tests.pugcode.org would have some meaning. ;)
23:41 eric256 any comments on the columns in the file listing would be appriciated too ;)
23:42 wolverian eric256, perldoc -f time
23:42 rafl_ Thought localtime could do that.
23:43 wolverian that's what I meant.
23:43 wolverian :(
23:44 eric256 neither say anything about timezones.
23:47 wolverian it's right there in the localtime string!
23:47 eric256 not on feather.
23:47 wolverian huh. you're right.
23:48 eric256 or on my computer. lol
23:48 eric256 ?eval localtime();
23:48 evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 48), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 909348000000), ("sec" => 29), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
23:48 eric256 sure pugs has it. ;)
23:48 wolverian nice
23:48 wolverian it's even an object :)
23:49 wolverian ?eval localtime.tzname
23:49 evalbot_7769 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
23:49 wolverian well thank's for teasing
23:49 eric256 ?eval localtime().{tzname};
23:49 evalbot_7769 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&tzname"
23:49 eric256 ?eval localtime().<tzname>;
23:49 evalbot_7769 \"CEST"
23:49 wolverian I like objects more.
23:49 wolverian note that you can write that:
23:49 wolverian ?eval localtime<tzname>
23:49 evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 1), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::false), ("min" => 0), ("month" => 1), ("picosec" => 0), ("sec" => 0), ("tz" => 3600), ("tzname" => "CET"), ("wday" => 7), ("yday" => 0), ("year" => 2000));
23:50 wolverian or maybe not.
23:50 wolverian ?eval localtime.<tzname>
23:50 evalbot_7769 Error:  unexpected "." expecting term, operator, postfix conditional, postfix loop, postfix iteration, ";" or end of input
23:50 eric256 lol
23:50 wolverian that should work, though
23:50 wolverian ?eval localtime()<tzname>
23:50 evalbot_7769 \"CEST"
23:50 eric256 maybe no. because localtime can accept a parameter
23:50 theorbtwo Huh?
23:51 theorbtwo Isn't it just CET in Europe now?
23:52 * eric256 has no clue regarding anything involving time...whats the offset for CEST?  it says the timezon is 7200 but what is that?  and why did it just siwtch between CEST and CET?  /me confused
23:53 wolverian theorbtwo, not yet.
23:53 wolverian theorbtwo, in Finland it's still two hours of EEST :)
23:53 theorbtwo Oh -- at 1 UTC, not 1 local.
23:54 wolverian right.
23:56 theorbtwo CEST is GMT+2; CET is GMT+1.
23:57 theorbtwo And if your clock is already saying CET, then it's a bit off as it shouldn't be CET for another 1 and a half minutes.
23:57 theorbtwo (Mark.)
23:58 eric256 ?eval localtime();
23:58 evalbot_7769 \Time::Local.new(("day" => 30), ("hour" => 1), ("is_dst" => bool::true), ("min" => 58), ("month" => 10), ("picosec" => 18804000000), ("sec" => 14), ("tz" => 7200), ("tzname" => "CEST"), ("wday" => 1), ("yday" => 302), ("year" => 2005));
23:58 r0nny has quit IRC (Connection timed out)
23:58 Juerd (what) (are) (all) (those) (parens) (there)?
23:59 theorbtwo It is looking a bit lispy.
23:59 wolverian maybe it just wants to make sure.
23:59 theorbtwo OK, summer time has ended as of....
23:59 theorbtwo ...now.

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